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Downloaded from
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Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.BZ
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[knocking on door]
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[door opens]
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[Simon] It's the police.
Simon Blackwell from Cheshire.
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Can we come in? We need to speak to you.
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- [man 1] Yeah, come in.
- [Simon] Thanks. Sorry about coming in…
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- [man 1] Come on.
- [woman 1 crying] Please, no!
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Not again! No!
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- [Simon] I'll explain everything.
- [woman 1] No! I can't!
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[Simon] I know it's upsetting.
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Just poke your head up there.
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- [woman 2] Okay.
- [woman 1] Oh no.
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- [woman 2] Lucy?
- [Lucy] Yeah.
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[woman 2] I'm gonna come in, okay?
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- Hello. Are you okay?
- [Lucy] Yeah.
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[man 2] Hi, Lucy. Sorry that we've
come round so early and woken you.
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I'm **** from Chester MIT,
the Major Investigation Team.
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I'm arresting you on suspicion
of murder and attempted murder.
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You do not have to say anything, but
anything you say may be given in evidence.
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I appreciate it's quite the shock.
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What we need for you to do now, Lucy,
is we need you to get up and get dressed.
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- [woman 2] Okay, follow me down.
- [woman 3] Yeah.
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[Lucy] Please can I see my cat?
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[woman 2] Stay here for a sec.
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[cat meowing]
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Look.
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You're all right.
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You know I didn't do it.
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- [woman 1] I know you didn't!
- [man 1] I know!
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[woman 1] We know that!
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[Lucy] It's all right.
Look after the boys.
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[woman 1 sobbing]
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[ominous music playing]
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[handcuffs rattling]
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[Lucy] Just go in, Mum. Don't…
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Don't look, Mum. Just go.
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[mum sobbing in background]
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Mum, just go in.
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[woman 3] Okay, jump in there.
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[dramatic music playing]
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[reporter 1] Today, detectives took
a female health-care worker into custody…
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[reporter 2] …on suspicion
of murdering eight babies…
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[reporter 3] …and the attempted murder
of six others.
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[dramatic music continues]
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[male interviewer] We have gone through
the evidence case by case
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and given you the opportunity
to provide explanations throughout.
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[woman 1] It was unthinkable that
the young nurse sitting in front of us
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could be capable
of harming these vulnerable babies.
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[female interviewer] You wrote a note
saying, "I am evil. I did this."
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[man 1] It was and is
a once-in-a-generation-type case.
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It involves 17 babies across 13 families.
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[male interviewer]
If you haven't been involved
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in the collapses and deaths
of these babies,
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why did you write a note
which clearly states you were responsible,
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that you killed them on purpose?
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No comment.
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She was the young nurse
nobody would have suspected.
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One of the most prolific
child serial killers in UK history.
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Lucy Letby has been found guilty…
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…of killing seven newborn children.
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But did this unassuming nurse
really kill babies in her care?
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Today, a panel
of international medical experts…
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…independently reviewed medical records.
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[reporter 4] Their findings go against
everything that's been heard in court.
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{\an8}In summary, ladies and gentlemen,
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{\an8}we did not find any murders.
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{\an8}This might be some of the craziest
true-crime news I have heard in a while.
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She is the most prolific serial killer
of children ever.
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I don't think she's done it.
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The story is absolutely tragic
and horrifying.
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She's innocent. Let her out, bruv.
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Is she guilty,
or is this woman actually innocent?
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[dramatic music intensifies]
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[music fades]
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[machine beeps]
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[man] This interview is being recorded.
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It's now recording every word
that is said in this interview.
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Introduce yourself, please.
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Lucy Letby.
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- [man] Date of birth?
- Fourth of the first, 1990.
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[man] This interview is your opportunity
to put forward your response
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to the reasons why you've been arrested.
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If you are innocent
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and have any reasonable explanation,
defense, or alibi,
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we will search for evidence
that will support you.
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We're not here to judge you.
Do you understand that, Lucy?
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Yes.
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[man] Okay.
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[woman] We interviewed Lucy Letby
over numerous hours.
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{\an8}At the start, we asked her
a wide range of open questions
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about what happens at cot side.
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[woman] So tell me about what happens
with a baby's first feed.
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So the doctors will tell you
when they're happy
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for a baby to commence feeds.
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[woman] Yeah.
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And they would be fed
via the nasogastric tube.
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- [woman] Okay.
- Um…
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And we… Usually, for a premature baby,
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we would prefer to give either breast milk
or donor breast milk.
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We wouldn't usually give formula
to a baby of that size.
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[woman] Okay.
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She came across as a competent nurse
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who knew how to care for these babies.
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However, when we drilled in
as to why a specific baby had collapsed,
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she became a lot more vague
in her replies.
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[man] We're gonna talk about ***.
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At 16:01 hours on 20th June 2015,
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she was born by cesarean section
and transferred to the neonatal ward.
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At 04:25 hours on 22nd June 2015,
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♪ was pronounced deceased.
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Is there anything you can tell us
about what happened to her?
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I don't really remember ***.
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[man] Okay.
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So baby Zoe collapsed
on three separate occasions
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during one single night shift.
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We knew that Lucy Letby was at cot side,
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so why was it
she couldn't recall anything?
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[man] You can't remember any collapse
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or any involvement in the care
at that time?
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No.
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[woman] Three weeks before my due date,
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I woke up, and my water had broken.
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This was it. It was happening.
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[suspenseful music playing]
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[woman] At the hospital,
I got checked out,
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and a scan confirmed everything was fine.
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So we were ready to meet little Zoe.
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But it was not straightforward.
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I was in labor for 60 hours.
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I felt something wasn't right.
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- [machine beeps]
- So I insisted I needed a C-section.
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[monitor beeping]
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The doctor lifted Zoe above the sheet,
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but she seemed to be
struggling to breathe.
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She had to be taken to intensive care.
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- [music fades]
- [monitor continues beeping]
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It was hard
looking at her in the incubator.
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I couldn't take her out,
but I was able to hold her hand.
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She was so fragile,
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small, and precious.
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I became a mummy.
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The doctors were telling us
that she was responding very well,
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that she was responding as expected,
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and, um,
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there were no concerns.
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[machine beeping steadily]
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{\an8}[rapid beeping]
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[beeping, buzzing]
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[Sarah] I was fast asleep
when a nurse turned the light on.
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She said, "You need to come right now."
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I asked, "What's going on?" She said,
"There's no time. We need to go."
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[dramatic music playing]
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[Sarah] I remember being wheeled
down the long corridor, thinking,
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"What's going on?"
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[rapid beeping]
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[Sarah] I felt the panic in the room.
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The doctor was trying everything
to keep her heart pumping.
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He wasn't giving up.
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I wanted him to keep fighting.
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But the other doctor
put a hand on his shoulder and said,
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"You need to stop.
You need to let her go."
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The doctor was still holding Zoe,
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but… he stopped what he was doing.
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That was it. It was finished.
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It was over.
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My husband and I, uh,
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we just broke down, and…
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I… I…
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We were just saying, "What's going on?
What's just happened?"
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She was okay, so…
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I didn't… I… I was just so angry
and so sad and so confused, and then…
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[sighs]
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[sorrowful music playing]
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Yeah.
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[man] When Zoe died,
we didn't know what had happened.
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She'd started to improve.
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She wasn't expected to die then.
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{\an8}Why had she deteriorated?
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{\an8}Why didn't she respond
to the resuscitation?
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[tense music playing]
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But what was an even bigger worry
was that Zoe was the third baby to die
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in just over two weeks.
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Some of those babies showed a strange rash
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and didn't respond to resuscitation
when we felt they ought to have done.
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That is a worry. Why did we have
three babies dying so soon together?
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Was there something we were missing
going on, on the unit?
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Although we'd hoped
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that those three deaths
might have been just bad luck,
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unfortunately, it didn't stop.
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Babies kept dying
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far more frequently
than I'd ever known it before on our unit.
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- [monitor beeping]
- [pager buzzing]
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By February 16, there'd been nine deaths
that had occurred up till then.
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[monitor beeping]
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It became
a very frightening, worrying time.
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Some of the consultants asked for
an urgent meeting with the risk managers
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and with the director of nursing
in the hospital,
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but they didn't seem
particularly concerned.
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We'd never encountered anything like this
before, so we didn't know what to do.
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Then, in June 2016, things came to a head
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with two further deaths,
and we couldn't explain why they died.
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By this stage,
there were 13 unexpected deaths.
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In the 21 years I've been a consultant,
I'd never seen anything like this before.
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At that point, we realized
something now had to be done.
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[music fades]
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[man] I was one night at headquarters,
quite late,
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and I was given three separate reports
from the Countess of Chester Hospital.
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{\an8}They documented a spike
in numbers of baby deaths
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{\an8}and catastrophic collapses
within the neonatal unit.
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[tense music playing]
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Between June 2015 and July 2016,
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there were 13 deaths.
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{\an8}The most concerning thing
from the clinicians, from the doctors,
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was that many of those deaths
and collapses weren't explainable.
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[Paul] I'm told at this point
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that there was a member of staff
who had been moved off the unit.
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My initial thoughts were maybe
that's probably a little bit premature
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to try and identify a suspect.
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There could have been
any number of legitimate explanations
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for why so many babies had died.
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Were there mistakes made at the hospital?
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Was there
an uncontrolled infectious disease?
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Or could these babies have died naturally?
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We needed to understand
the medical circumstances
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that each of these babies
had been through.
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So it was crucial that we got
independent, credible medical experts
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who could give us an objective view
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00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:15,160
of these babies
that had collapsed unexpectedly.
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[music fades[
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00:14:17,560 --> 00:14:19,600
[clock chiming]
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[man] One morning, I was at home,
and I discovered this article
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00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,559
about Cheshire Police investigating
a neonatal unit
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00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:30,640
regarding a lot of baby deaths.
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00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:33,279
And I thought, "Hmm, that's interesting."
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{\an8}"Sounds like my kind of case."
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[mysterious music playing]
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00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:42,799
I'd clocked up over 30 years' worth
of expertise and experience
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00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:44,160
looking after sick babies.
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I had also clocked up several decades
as a medical expert witness
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00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:51,480
for the criminal court.
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I said to the police,
"Let's have a look at one case
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00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:58,560
just to give me
an idea of what's going on."
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This particular baby
was born in good condition,
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a good-sized baby, over two kilos,
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00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:10,000
who had been stable
but had suddenly collapsed.
247
00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,479
I saw these photographs
248
00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:19,519
of big, marble-sized blood clots
under the liver,
249
00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:23,400
plus bleeding in the abdomen as well.
250
00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:25,920
But this looked awful to me.
251
00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:31,759
How on earth could a baby
who was doing very nicely
252
00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:35,880
end up with serious liver abnormalities?
253
00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,160
And within a few hours, the baby was dead.
254
00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:45,079
I said to the police,
255
00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:49,960
"I want to look at all the case notes
over this two-year period."
256
00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:52,999
I eventually got 32 cases
257
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,039
and identified a suspicious event
258
00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:57,680
in about half of them.
259
00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,559
Babies whose collapse was unexpected
260
00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:02,960
and unexplained.
261
00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,720
This was unprecedented in my experience,
262
00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:10,480
and one had to think the unthinkable.
263
00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:16,200
Someone had intentionally harmed
these babies.
264
00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:23,120
[music fades]
265
00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:28,039
[Simon] That took our investigation
into a different sphere.
266
00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:29,159
[tense music playing]
267
00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:33,880
It was that sickening reality
that this could be murder of a baby.
268
00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,200
The next question we had to answer was,
269
00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:42,120
"By who?"
270
00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:48,239
We examined everybody
who could've been in the area
271
00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:52,000
each time a baby died or collapsed.
272
00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:54,959
Which doctors were there?
273
00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,360
Which nurses were there?
Which family members were there?
274
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:03,239
Who had access to the drugs?
Who had access to the medical records?
275
00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:04,639
[Paul] And then keep testing.
276
00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,240
Who else could've been there?
Who else could've done this?
277
00:17:09,120 --> 00:17:12,600
[Simon] When we were looking at
the information, a clear pattern emerged.
278
00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:21,000
[Paul] Out of 25 suspicious deaths
and collapses,
279
00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,760
one name
continued to come out consistently.
280
00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:27,879
[Simon] This nurse had a central role
281
00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:29,520
in all these events.
282
00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:35,599
And that was Lucy Letby.
283
00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:37,320
[music fades]
284
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:43,080
[church bell tolling]
285
00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,240
[gentle music playing]
286
00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:00,480
[woman] I remember
the first day of lectures.
287
00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:03,960
I'd walked into this massive lecture room.
288
00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:05,880
I didn't know anyone.
289
00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,800
So I went off and sat on my own.
290
00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,720
But then another girl came over to me.
291
00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:17,200
She sat down and said,
"Really nice to meet you. My name's Lucy."
292
00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,760
There was something about her smile
that put me at ease straightaway.
293
00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:27,039
And after four days at university,
294
00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:29,840
we were basically inseparable.
295
00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:33,640
We were in lectures together.
296
00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,520
I'd go over to hers for dinner.
She'd come over to mine for dinner.
297
00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:40,800
When we went clubbing,
we would go together.
298
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,400
If we'd been out for the night, I'd stay
at hers or she would stay at mine.
299
00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:48,200
We'd go to the cinema.
300
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,240
Basically, everything that we did,
we did together.
301
00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:54,960
She had a very quirky sense of humor.
302
00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,360
It was just always… fun.
303
00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:05,480
Lucy was an only child,
so her parents basically doted on her.
304
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,759
They were so proud of the fact
that she had gone to university
305
00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:13,160
and she was going to become a nurse.
306
00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,359
She wanted to learn.
She wanted to know everything,
307
00:19:18,360 --> 00:19:20,280
to make sure she knew what she was doing.
308
00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,279
Lucy and I had
our first placement together
309
00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:30,280
at the Countess of Chester Hospital.
310
00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:32,680
We were both
really quite excited about it.
311
00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:39,920
But straightaway, the nurses in Chester
were quite… cliquey.
312
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,759
I remember we went to the staff room
to have lunch,
313
00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,640
and the nurses who were there
were all sat chatting.
314
00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:52,800
I remember Lucy trying to join in
with the conversation,
315
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:54,880
and they just ignored her.
316
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,799
There was this kind of feeling
that the nurses didn't want us there,
317
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:01,400
the medical team didn't want you there.
318
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:08,719
I started to think
that some people were actively
319
00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:12,600
going out of their way
to make things hard for Lucy.
320
00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:20,439
There was absolutely nothing I can think
that made them treat her that way,
321
00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:24,720
except for the fact that they didn't like…
that she was shy and quiet.
322
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,079
I knew that I didn't want to stay
at the Countess,
323
00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:35,840
but Lucy applied for a job
in the neonatal unit.
324
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,359
I didn't entirely understand
why she wanted to stay,
325
00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:46,720
considering the way some of the nurses
and some of the consultants behaved.
326
00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:53,760
I guess you could describe graduation
as a bittersweet time.
327
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:58,600
My family and her family
arranged to have dinner together.
328
00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,999
{\an8}Lucy's parents were so proud
of her graduating.
329
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,600
{\an8}They put a big thing in their local paper.
330
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:10,999
But it was really sad as well
331
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,920
because I was worried
how she was going to cope.
332
00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:23,080
[distant siren wailing]
333
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,360
- [quiet voices chattering]
- [phones ringing]
334
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:33,439
[monitor beeping]
335
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,360
[Dr. Gibbs] Lucy was a quiet nurse.
336
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,559
She seemed conscientious. She seemed keen.
337
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:39,639
[tense music playing]
338
00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:43,319
{\an8}She seemed competent,
as far as I could tell.
339
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,280
There was nothing about her
that made her stand out to me.
340
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:49,639
But by the end of 2015,
341
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,319
all of us consultants
were becoming concerned
342
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,520
about so many unusual deaths on the unit.
343
00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:58,200
[tense music continues]
344
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:04,239
[Dr. Gibbs] When a staffing review
was done, one common factor emerged.
345
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:07,719
There was only one person who was on duty
for all of those deaths,
346
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:09,119
and it was Lucy Letby.
347
00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:11,639
[music intensifies]
348
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,680
[Dr. Gibbs] I wasn't sure
what to make of that at first.
349
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,080
Is it pure coincidence,
or is she causing harm?
350
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:24,599
So we decided to discuss this
with the neonatal nurse manager.
351
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:26,879
But she was absolutely adamant
352
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,119
that Lucy Letby was
a competent, dedicated nurse,
353
00:22:30,120 --> 00:22:31,599
and it was unthinkable
354
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,639
that there should be any suggestion
she might be harming patients.
355
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:36,679
[monitors beeping]
356
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:41,159
Unfortunately, we continued to have
more deaths occurring at night,
357
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,600
and Lucy Letby had been on duty
for all of those deaths.
358
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,559
So the senior managers decided eventually
359
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,760
that Lucy Letby should be moved
onto day duties.
360
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,839
The deaths at night
and the collapses at night stopped,
361
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,119
but shockingly,
they started to recur during the day.
362
00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:02,679
[beeping]
363
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:04,680
[buzzing]
364
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,879
At that stage, we, as the consultant body,
365
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,920
realized that we could not delay
any further.
366
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,560
Lucy Letby had to be removed
from the neonatal unit.
367
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:18,600
[music fades]
368
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,119
[Paul] Just under a year
after the investigation started,
369
00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:27,959
I received an email from Lucy Letby
directly from her NHS email account.
370
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,759
[intriguing music playing]
371
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:34,600
She quoted the operation name,
which wasn't out, really, publicly.
372
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,359
She's effectively aware of colleagues
being spoken to, and she's not been,
373
00:23:42,360 --> 00:23:44,520
and wants to know
when we're gonna speak to her.
374
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:50,799
I found it interesting
375
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,200
because I thought, "Well,
maybe she has got something to tell us."
376
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,279
[Simon] We needed to ask
Lucy Letby questions,
377
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,119
and the best way to do that,
the only way to do that,
378
00:24:09,120 --> 00:24:10,400
was to arrest her.
379
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:13,079
- Hello. Lucy, is it?
- Yes.
380
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,199
My name's **** from Cheshire Police.
Is it okay to step in two seconds?
381
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:17,880
- Uh, yes.
- [man] Yeah? Thank you.
382
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:21,839
- Is there anybody else with you?
- [Lucy] Yeah.
383
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:23,599
- [man] Who's here at the moment?
- My dad.
384
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,279
[man] One of the officers is gonna go up
and just grab your dad.
385
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,359
- I need to have a quick chat with you.
- [woman] I'll go and grab your dad.
386
00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:30,920
[man] Do you wanna come and take a seat?
387
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,039
[woman 2] Just to let you know,
this is a body-worn camera,
388
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,239
and you are being recorded
at the moment, okay?
389
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:38,159
[Lucy] Okay.
390
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,079
[man] Are these the lights
for the living room?
391
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,600
- Yeah.
- [man] Yeah. Which one? Ah, there we go.
392
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:45,919
Lucy, I need you
to listen to me very, very carefully
393
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:47,999
because I'm gonna read out
some information.
394
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,560
- Okay.
- [man] It's important you listen to me.
395
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,839
"Between March 2015 and July 2016,
396
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:55,919
the neonate team
of the Countess of Chester Hospital
397
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,999
experienced high mortality rates
of babies in their care."
398
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,599
"Following an internal review
in the Countess of Chester Hospital,
399
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,479
the case was referred to Cheshire Police,
400
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:05,519
who have been conducting
an investigation."
401
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:07,999
"As a result of the inquiries
and evidence gathered,
402
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,359
the offenses of murder
and attempted murder have been identified,
403
00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:14,080
and you have been identified as a suspect
of these offenses."
404
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:15,959
You don't have to say anything,
405
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,039
but it may harm your defense if you do not
mention something you later rely on.
406
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,199
Anything you do say
may be given in evidence.
407
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,719
The arrest is necessary for the prompt
and effective investigation of the offense
408
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:26,840
and to protect a child
or other vulnerable person.
409
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,359
Do you understand
what I've just read out to you?
410
00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:32,640
[whimpering, crying]
411
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:35,640
[man] Lucy, what's gonna happen now
412
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,440
is you're gonna go to the police station
to be questioned about these allegations.
413
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,159
[sobbing]
414
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,360
[man] So these officers
are gonna go with you upstairs now.
415
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,759
You are now in our custody.
We have to stay with you
416
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,120
to make sure you remain with us
and nothing else happens to you or to us.
417
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,279
[woman 2] If there's any footwear
that you need to get on or…?
418
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,480
Are you gonna go in the clothes
you've got on? Um…
419
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,839
[woman 2] 'Cause you're in a tracksuit,
so it's probably appropriate.
420
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:09,559
[woman 1] So we'll get you some footwear.
421
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:10,719
[Lucy] I just…
422
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:12,240
You got any shoes?
423
00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:18,759
[woman 2] Everything else is
gonna have to remain untouched,
424
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,840
so we can't have you move anything around
or taking anything else, really.
425
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:25,880
[Lucy] Are you gonna search the house?
426
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,000
[woman 2] It will be searched, yeah.
427
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:30,559
Can I say goodbye to him? [sniffles]
428
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:32,360
- [man] To your cat? Of course.
- [woman] Yeah.
429
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,719
This is just
for transportation reasons, okay?
430
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:49,959
It's just to make sure
that you're safe in the car
431
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:51,799
and that we are as well, all right?
432
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,119
As soon as we get to custody,
the cuffs can be taken off you, okay?
433
00:26:55,120 --> 00:26:57,120
[ominous music playing]
434
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:13,880
[phone ringing]
435
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,240
[stirring string music playing]
436
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,159
[Sarah] The phone woke me up
around 6:00 a.m.
437
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:23,280
The person said,
438
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:25,879
"This is Cheshire Police."
439
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:29,360
"We are calling you to let you know
we have arrested someone
440
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,680
on suspicion of the murder
of your daughter."
441
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:40,399
[Sarah] All of a sudden, I realized
442
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:44,320
that someone could've
purposely targeted my child.
443
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,240
I… I… [sighs]
444
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,120
We just were completely…
445
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:53,760
lost for words.
446
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:55,959
[woman] Right, okay.
447
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:57,920
Just step out of the car for me.
448
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,000
Okay, just put your arms out for me.
449
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:07,199
[beep]
450
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:08,920
[woman] Just something there.
451
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,320
[man 1] What's your current occupation?
452
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:15,600
Children's nurse.
453
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,480
[man 2] Do you wanna take
a seat there, Lucy?
454
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,719
[reporter 1] A health-care worker
has been arrested
455
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,879
on suspicion of murdering eight babies
and the attempted murder of six others
456
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,639
at the Countess of Chester Hospital
after a year-long…
457
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,320
[Sarah] As soon as I saw her face,
458
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:40,999
I recognized the nurse straightaway.
459
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:42,839
[somber music playing]
460
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,800
When I visited Zoe for the first time,
461
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,479
she had a clipboard,
but she wasn't actually doing any jobs.
462
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,720
She was just there, watching us.
463
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,679
[reporter 2] Today's arrest confirms
the dreadful possibility
464
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,119
that newborns might have been murdered.
465
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:03,360
[phone buzzes]
466
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,760
[Maisie] This news alert
popped up on my phone.
467
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,359
I was shaking.
I was having, like, palpitations.
468
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:14,760
My heart was going.
469
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:16,840
"Why have they arrested Lucy?"
470
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:21,600
It was just complete disbelief.
471
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,160
I just thought
it was all a horrible mistake.
472
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:34,480
[machine beeps]
473
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,599
Okay, this interview is being recorded.
I am Detective Constable Lee.
474
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,879
- The other officer present is…
- 3201 Vikki Holt.
475
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:42,959
[Lee] Please introduce yourself again
for me, Lucy.
476
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:44,280
Lucy Letby.
477
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,839
[Danielle] The ultimate objective
for interviewing Lucy Letby
478
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,919
was all about getting the truth
as to what happened to these babies
479
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,559
and ultimately provide her
with ample opportunity
480
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,839
to give an alternative explanation
481
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:01,400
as to why these babies rapidly fell so ill
or did collapse.
482
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,719
[Vikki] So, in general terms,
during the resuscitation,
483
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:05,959
what are the roles--
484
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,319
Usually, the medical staff
have the airway.
485
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,439
They would be delivering
the resuscitation drugs.
486
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,519
- So two people would be doing the drugs.
- [Vikki] Okay.
487
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,800
And then ideally have somebody
supporting the parents.
488
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:25,719
[Danielle] She was very knowledgeable.
She was calm. She was engaging.
489
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:30,639
And when talking about the processes
involved in the care of these babies,
490
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,080
she knew the answers to the questions.
491
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:37,399
[Vikki] So who takes the notes
during the resus attempts?
492
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,319
Ideally, you would have a scribe there.
493
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,919
So, usually,
one of the junior doctors would take on,
494
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,600
or one of the nurses would take on
the scribing role.
495
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,919
But when she was challenged
over certain points,
496
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,399
particularly her actions
around the time of the collapses,
497
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,799
I think she did become
slightly more evasive.
498
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,520
[Lee] Just prior to the collapse, Lucy,
499
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,480
had you had any cause
to go into Nursery One at all?
500
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:06,559
I don't remember.
501
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,160
[Lee] Right. Were you working
in Nursery One?
502
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,119
I don't think I was, but I don't recall
which baby I was looking after.
503
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:14,000
[Lee] Okay.
504
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:16,999
And you… you don't remember
505
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,360
the process of how you ended up
in Nursery One, with the resus?
506
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:21,720
No.
507
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,399
She would spend some time
thinking about a reply
508
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:30,719
and would almost leave it what felt like
a significant amount of time
509
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:31,760
before answering.
510
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,840
[Vikki] Are you aware
of why he required resuscitation?
511
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:42,919
No, I don't recall
the events leading up to that.
512
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,120
I just know that he had resuscitation.
513
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,559
[Danielle] These answers raised
some big questions for us.
514
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:51,560
[tense music playing]
515
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,759
[Simon] Lucy Letby was in custody
for many hours,
516
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,760
but we did not gather enough evidence
to charge her.
517
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,360
And there was
lots of information still to find out.
518
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,400
So after the interview,
Lucy Letby was bailed,
519
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:12,399
which gave us a chance
to gather further expert evidence
520
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:16,920
and take a really forensic look
at the materials we found on the searches.
521
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,880
[Paul] There was a huge amount of material
to look through.
522
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,160
[music intensifies]
523
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,880
[Simon] We found a box
which had the word "keep" on the front,
524
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:37,360
and within it were baby handover sheets
from the hospital in Chester.
525
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,359
[Danielle] They were
highly confidential documents
526
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,679
that contained personal information,
527
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:45,039
their name,
528
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:49,360
date of birth, and an overview
of their medical condition at that time.
529
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,719
On closer inspection,
some of these documents
530
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,959
related to the babies who'd collapsed
and subsequently died,
531
00:32:57,960 --> 00:32:59,960
which was obviously deeply concerning.
532
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:06,800
[Simon] Lucy Letby wrote lots of things
and clearly retained a lot of material.
533
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,000
So there was a lot of diaries
534
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:14,720
and Post-it notes.
535
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,760
[Danielle] We'd uncovered
some deeply concerning pieces of evidence.
536
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,840
It was clear that we had to get Lucy Letby
back into custody.
537
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:28,520
[Paul] We needed to ask Lucy Letby
some very direct and difficult questions.
538
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:31,080
[door opens]
539
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,239
[Simon] It's the police.
Simon Blackwell from Cheshire.
540
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:35,840
Can we come in? We need to speak to you.
541
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:39,319
[woman] Lucy?
542
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:40,160
[Lucy] Yes.
543
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,160
[woman] I'm gonna come in, okay?
544
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:44,439
[man] Hi, Lucy.
545
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,239
Based on new and additional evidence
that's been obtained,
546
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,999
I'm arresting you for several offenses.
547
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:51,880
- [woman 1] Okay, follow me down.
- [woman 2] Yeah.
548
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,359
[woman 3 sobbing]
549
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,400
[dramatic music playing]
550
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:12,399
[music fades]
551
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,319
[Danielle] The strategy at this point
became quite simple.
552
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,439
There was a lot of evidence,
so it was clear
553
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,800
that I needed to stick to the facts
that she couldn't dispute.
554
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,399
If she could provide
an alternative explanation,
555
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:26,800
then now was the time.
556
00:34:30,240 --> 00:34:31,639
[machine clicks, beeps]
557
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,919
[Danielle] This is a continuation
of a series of interviews, Lucy.
558
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,160
As you can see, the red light has come on.
559
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:39,999
This interview is
also being visually recorded
560
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:41,720
and monitored upstairs.
561
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,039
Your home address was searched,
562
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:51,680
and a large quantity
of these handover sheets
563
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,559
were found at your home address.
564
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:55,800
Can you explain that?
565
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,399
They're just sheets that have
inadvertently come home in my pocket.
566
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,880
I've not emptied my pockets
before coming home.
567
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,439
[Danielle] There were almost
250 handover sheets
568
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:13,879
which had been stored
in a chronological order,
569
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:15,200
so in date order.
570
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,479
She was clearly
a thorough and methodical person.
571
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,399
She was aware of the confidential
information that they contained,
572
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,839
and she definitely knew
that she shouldn't have had them.
573
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:29,399
So the idea
that she could have mistakenly taken home
574
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:34,680
250 confidential medical records
was astonishing.
575
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:36,479
[music fades]
576
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,760
[Danielle] Explain to me why you put them
all together in a folder.
577
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:42,679
I didn't know
how to dispose of them myself,
578
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:44,120
so I didn't dispose of them.
579
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:46,800
You didn't know how to dispose of them?
580
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:48,440
No.
581
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:55,679
[Danielle] Have you previously taken
any of these handover sheets home
582
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:57,160
and disposed of them?
583
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:01,240
No, I don't think so.
584
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,719
'Cause I haven't got a shredder,
and that's how I would…
585
00:36:04,720 --> 00:36:06,800
that's how I'd have to get rid of them.
586
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:10,840
[tense music playing]
587
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:13,759
[Danielle] During the police searches,
588
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,799
we found a shredder in one of the bedrooms
at her home address,
589
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,560
so her account just didn't add up.
590
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,679
She could have herself
shredded them confidentially
591
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,080
and got rid of the documents,
but they were retained.
592
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:31,199
Do those sheets that are in your folder
that you kept at your home address, Lucy,
593
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:35,720
relate to babies
which you were designated nurse for?
594
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:38,080
Yes.
595
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,320
[Paul] If we retain something,
we retain it for a reason,
596
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:43,479
because it's important to us.
597
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:45,120
[mysterious music playing]
598
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,120
[Simon] During the searches,
we found a number of diaries.
599
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:54,920
When we started to look through them,
we stumbled upon some worrying detail.
600
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,999
[Paul] There was entries
where she'd write initials down
601
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,639
which matched the initials
of suspicious cases
602
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:04,039
that we were investigating.
603
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:05,279
[music fades]
604
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:09,239
[Danielle] My colleague asked you
about the collapses of the babies,
605
00:37:09,240 --> 00:37:12,560
and you said that you recorded those.
606
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:15,119
- Why?
- I think I've made reference.
607
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,159
I don't know
in what way I've recorded them.
608
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:18,000
[Danielle] Right.
609
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:20,919
[somber music playing]
610
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:22,759
[Danielle] There were a couple of dates
611
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,159
where we know
that one of the babies had collapsed
612
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,719
that she marked with an asterisk.
613
00:37:27,720 --> 00:37:30,199
[Lucy] I think there were some days
in my diary that I've…
614
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,880
I've asterisked or marked days that were…
615
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:35,800
that we had a baby
that was particularly unwell.
616
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,480
[Danielle] And what was
the purpose of that?
617
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:41,240
Don't know. Just for my own…
618
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:42,800
[Danielle] Your own what?
619
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,600
I don't know.
My own reflection, I suppose.
620
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,120
[Danielle] Why would you want to reflect
on those, Lucy?
621
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:56,599
I don't talk to anybody about it.
622
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,680
I just internalize things
and do it in my own time.
623
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,159
[Paul] From our point of view,
624
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:07,999
she was documenting
the baby that got attacked on that day.
625
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:09,840
[tense music playing]
626
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:12,519
[Danielle] During the second
lot of searches,
627
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:16,000
we located a black bin bag in her garage.
628
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,399
There was a piece of paper
629
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,880
with some concerning notes
written upon it.
630
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:29,399
[Danielle] I'm gonna read you
an extract from it, and it says,
631
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,800
"Murderer. Murder."
632
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,320
"No one will ever know
what happened and why."
633
00:38:42,720 --> 00:38:44,679
Explain these comments to me, Lucy.
634
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:45,680
No comment.
635
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,400
[Danielle] Tell me
about the comment "murderer."
636
00:38:50,240 --> 00:38:51,320
No comment.
637
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:55,679
[Danielle] Are you suggesting there
that you are a murderer?
638
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:56,760
No comment.
639
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:00,039
[Danielle] Tell me about,
640
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,039
"No one will ever know
what happened and why."
641
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,719
- No comment.
- [Danielle] What does that mean, Lucy?
642
00:39:05,720 --> 00:39:06,840
No comment.
643
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:11,879
[Danielle] You could see
her starting to comprehend,
644
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,560
starting to understand
where this evidence was pointing towards.
645
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,239
[man] Lucy, since you left the unit,
646
00:39:19,240 --> 00:39:23,599
887 babies of 32 weeks' gestation
or greater
647
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,119
were born
at the Countess of Chester Hospital
648
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:27,920
and admitted to the NNU.
649
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:34,320
None of these babies since you left died
or deteriorated unexpectedly.
650
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,599
Have you got any comment
you wish to make about this?
651
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:38,680
No comment.
652
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,479
[man] With all the evidence
we have available at this time,
653
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,679
it clearly shows
that you were the only person present
654
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:53,359
for all of the 25 collapses
and the deaths of the 17 babies
655
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:55,480
and would suggest you are responsible.
656
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,840
No one else, Lucy. Only you.
657
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:06,520
[Danielle] Lucy, f there is an explanation
for why you are responsible,
658
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:11,159
now is your final opportunity
to explain why this is to us.
659
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:12,240
No comment.
660
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:17,879
[man] Okay.
661
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:23,119
[Danielle] Okay, the time by my watch
is 16:10 hours,
662
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,240
and this interview is now concluded.
663
00:40:25,720 --> 00:40:26,639
[device beeps]
664
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:28,640
[somber music playing]
665
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:36,320
[Simon] Lucy Letby had been spoken to
in detail about all of these babies.
666
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:42,079
It was the right time now to take stock
and review what evidence there was,
667
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,320
and at this point, she was bailed again.
668
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:52,839
I really struggled to imagine what Lucy
was going through when she was arrested
669
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,160
and she was being interrogated for days.
670
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:05,000
All I wanted to do was tell her
that I was there if she needed anything,
671
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:09,080
and not being able to do that
was heartbreaking.
672
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:17,200
But I never doubted
that she was completely innocent.
673
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:21,280
[music intensifies]
674
00:41:23,240 --> 00:41:25,439
[Simon] We are now at the position
in the investigation
675
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:29,519
where there was lots of information
from interview, lots of witness accounts.
676
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:31,560
There was more expert evidence.
677
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,799
And when
it was systematically pieced together,
678
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:40,079
it was clear that everything
pointed to Lucy Letby's involvement.
679
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:41,680
[knocking on door]
680
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:43,959
[man 1] Is she upstairs?
681
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:45,320
[man 2] Yeah, I think so.
682
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:50,039
[woman] Hello. It's all right.
It's Cheshire Police. Okay?
683
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:52,759
- Lucy, can I just turn the light on here?
- [woman 2 whimpering]
684
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,480
- [Lucy] Yeah.
- [woman] Wanna go and take a seat?
685
00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:58,000
Just…
686
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:05,359
[man] Lucy, listen to me for a minute.
I'm **** from Cheshire Police.
687
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,959
I'm arresting you on suspicion
of the murder of ****,
688
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:10,479
the murder of ****,
689
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:11,880
the murder of ****.
690
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:15,880
Did you hear all that, Lucy?
691
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,880
What we're gonna need to do
is just get you dressed, okay?
692
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:24,240
The officers are gonna take you back
to the police station up in Chester, okay?
693
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:28,360
[woman] Lucy, do you wanna get
some clothes on?
694
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:33,280
It's just for transporting purposes, okay?
695
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:39,080
Does that feel too tight?
696
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,319
You've got a little bit of movement
in there, okay?
697
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,840
- Just got to make sure you can't get out.
- [handcuffs click]
698
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:48,760
Just take a seat there for us.
699
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:54,440
Can I just get in here?
700
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:58,040
[music building]
701
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:19,079
A nurse has gone on trial
702
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:23,279
accused of killing seven babies
in a neonatal unit.
703
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,719
[reporter 2] Lucy Letby looked after
the most vulnerable babies.
704
00:43:26,720 --> 00:43:29,279
[reporter 3] Arriving in a prison van
for trial.
705
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:33,520
Accused of murdering seven babies
and attempting to murder ten others.
706
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:37,480
[Paul] All the time, you're just thinking,
"Have we got it right?"
707
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:42,239
"Has the evidence been tested enough
for it to stand the scrutiny of trial?"
708
00:43:42,240 --> 00:43:46,719
[reporter 4] Opening the prosecution case,
Nicholas Johnson KC told the jury
709
00:43:46,720 --> 00:43:51,279
the collapse and deaths of the 17 children
were not naturally occurring tragedies.
710
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:52,960
They were the work
of the woman in the dock.
711
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:58,239
All I could think about was Lucy
712
00:43:58,240 --> 00:44:01,560
and the things she was going to
have to listen to people saying about her.
713
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:08,840
Preparing for the trial
was very challenging.
714
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,080
There wasn't one day
I wasn't thinking about Zoe.
715
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:19,839
I wanted to do her justice,
716
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:23,840
but I didn't want to go to trial
and be biased.
717
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:30,080
I knew
Lucy Letby was going to take the stand,
718
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:32,800
so I needed to face her.
719
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:37,119
[reporter 5] She wore a light gray top
and dark gray trousers
720
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,159
and spoke only to confirm her name.
721
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:43,999
We had about 50, 60 journalists
from around the world
722
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:45,720
covering this court case.
723
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:50,039
I was sat on the front row
nearest to Lucy Letby,
724
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:52,720
and that was my vantage point
throughout the trial.
725
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:02,639
[Simon] At the start of the trial,
726
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:07,000
the prosecution's opening statement
was, in itself, 90-plus pages.
727
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:10,679
They said there was a number of ways
728
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:14,640
that Lucy Letby inflicted harm
on those babies.
729
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:21,320
They ranged from physical trauma
to the throat or stomach…
730
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,839
[Paul] They said
that she removed airway tubes,
731
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,879
which desaturate the baby's oxygen supply
732
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:31,120
to cause a deterioration in that way.
733
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:34,799
She also would use overfeeding,
734
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,719
which inflates the stomach
and pushes the diaphragm towards the lungs
735
00:45:38,720 --> 00:45:40,519
and restricts the breathing.
736
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:42,999
[monitor beeping]
737
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:46,119
She changed her methods
and was creative to what she needed to do
738
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:48,440
to cause the deaths and collapses.
739
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:52,880
And now
the prosecution needed to prove that.
740
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:56,040
[ominous music playing]
741
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:00,879
[reporter 6] For the last seven months,
prosecutor Nick Johnson KC
742
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:04,159
has been setting out
the case against Lucy Letby.
743
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:07,319
Now he has his chance
to question her directly
744
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:11,640
about allegations that she murdered
and harmed babies in her care.
745
00:46:16,240 --> 00:46:18,519
[Sarah] For the first time
since Zoe's death,
746
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:20,960
I was seeing Lucy Letby.
747
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:26,320
I sat three meters away from her.
748
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,960
She looked at me a dozen times, staring.
749
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,200
Every time she'd look at me,
I'd have to look down.
750
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:43,239
[Kim] The atmosphere in the courtroom
751
00:46:43,240 --> 00:46:45,160
was extremely tense.
752
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:49,839
As she gave evidence,
she seemed to have a good recall
753
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:52,439
of almost all of the 17 children
754
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:55,520
that she was said to have
deliberately harmed, except one.
755
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:01,720
[Sarah] When she was asked
if she remembered Zoe,
756
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,280
she paused, and then she said no.
757
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:10,880
The whole room went sort of… [gasps]
758
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:15,680
[Kim] She was very businesslike in court,
759
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:19,800
as she was,
we were told, in her police interviews.
760
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:22,600
[man] We're gonna talk about ***.
761
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:26,799
There's six pages there
of her medical charts
762
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:29,040
that you've got your name next to.
763
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:32,760
Is it fair to say
you were involved somewhat with her care?
764
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:34,360
[Lucy] Yes.
765
00:47:35,240 --> 00:47:38,160
[man] Tell us about what happened to ***.
766
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:40,880
I don't really remember ***.
767
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:45,560
[man] Do you recall getting involved
with the resuscitation at all?
768
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:48,440
Not that I remember.
769
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:57,400
{\an8}I told the court that baby Zoe was stable.
770
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:02,360
{\an8}There was no reason why she should
suddenly deteriorate, let alone collapse.
771
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:07,839
In the clinical notes, they noticed
this peculiar skin discoloration
772
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:10,720
that nurses and doctors said
they'd never seen before.
773
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:15,999
And there was also air found
in a blood vessel in the body,
774
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,000
what's known as air embolism.
775
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:21,239
It's just like an airlock
in your central heating,
776
00:48:21,240 --> 00:48:23,600
which will stop the circulation.
777
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:27,879
I reviewed the literature
778
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:30,920
in relation to air embolus
in newborn babies,
779
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:34,479
one of which
was from two Canadian doctors,
780
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:37,759
Lee and Tanswell, published in 1989.
781
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:42,359
They'd observed
a very peculiar form of skin discoloration
782
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:45,120
as a result of air in the circulation.
783
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:48,639
This was more or less identical
784
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,319
to what the doctors described
785
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:54,640
for several of the babies
at the Countess of Chester Hospital.
786
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:58,559
[Kim] Dr. Evans gave
his considered opinion,
787
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:01,639
and the defense pushed back
and said, "Hang on a minute."
788
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:03,319
"There were differing reasons
789
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:05,599
why these babies
took a turn for the worse."
790
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:09,759
In some cases, they were ill at birth
and just got worse,
791
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:13,039
or in other cases,
the treatment was not up to scratch,
792
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:15,720
and that contributed
to that baby collapsing.
793
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:18,479
They were saying,
"You don't have enough evidence
794
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:20,720
to say that it's injection of air."
795
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:25,999
[Dr. Evans] I explained to the jury
that babies on a neonatal unit
796
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:30,199
are connected to
a very sophisticated intravenous pump,
797
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:32,840
which stops air bubbles
going through the line.
798
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:37,600
If air cannot get
into the circulation accidentally,
799
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:41,679
then air can only get into the circulation
800
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:45,120
as a result
of somebody doing it intentionally.
801
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:53,319
I told the jury that, in my opinion,
little Zoe's deterioration
802
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:57,760
was a result of having air injected
directly into her bloodstream.
803
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:03,519
[man] Dr. Evans said
her collapse is consistent
804
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:05,679
with the effect of an air embolus
805
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:09,079
caused by an injection of air
into her circulation
806
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:11,760
when the designated nurse
was not in the room,
807
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:13,879
but you were.
808
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:14,880
Right.
809
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:17,920
[man] Have you got any explanation
to that, Lucy?
810
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:19,280
No.
811
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:23,720
[man] From the evidence provided, Lucy,
812
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:26,880
it shows that you were present
when *** collapsed.
813
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:28,760
Do you agree with that?
814
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:36,480
You were working in Nursery One
when a nurse was in there.
815
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:39,240
She had gone out for a reason.
816
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:43,000
If that's what she says.
I don't recall specifically where I was.
817
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:46,519
[man] Is there a reason why you remembered
818
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:49,960
the administering of the medication
and not the collapses, Lucy?
819
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:54,519
No, I've only remembered the medication
from looking through the notes
820
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:57,640
and seeing
that I obviously did sign for medications.
821
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:03,599
[man] Is it because you remember
the administration of the medication?
822
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:06,759
Because that's when you took
the opportunity to attack…
823
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:07,720
No.
824
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:09,559
…and administer air?
825
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:11,399
- No.
- [man] No?
826
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:12,320
No.
827
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:16,160
[solemn music playing]
828
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:25,400
[Sarah] Listening to all the evidence
around Zoe's death was very
829
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:27,440
painful.
830
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:35,200
The prosecution explained
how Lucy Letby entered the room and
831
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:38,560
inserted air
832
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:40,760
into
833
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:43,520
the tube.
834
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:53,320
I was looking over at Lucy Letby
to see what was her reaction to that.
835
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:58,119
But there was nothing in the dock
at any point
836
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:03,039
where she was visibly upset
about the harrowing detail
837
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:05,439
of what she was supposed to have done.
838
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:07,800
There was nothing. Zero.
839
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:14,799
[Maisie] What did they want her to do?
Sit there and sob every day,
840
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:16,880
howling, crying?
841
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:19,720
Pleading her innocence all the time?
842
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:23,720
'Cause I don't think
that's… realistic or feasible.
843
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:27,320
[pensive music playing]
844
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:34,280
After baby Zoe's collapse,
Lucy Letby did message colleagues…
845
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:41,039
making them aware
that she'd sadly passed away
846
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:44,360
and went into detail
about the parents' reaction to it as well.
847
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:51,439
[Kim] Parents are distraught,
Dad's screaming,
848
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:54,440
and it was shocking, and she felt numb.
849
00:52:58,520 --> 00:52:59,959
There was a contradiction there
850
00:52:59,960 --> 00:53:02,880
as to somebody who said,
"I can't recall anything about this."
851
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:06,439
[Danielle] We provided Lucy Letby
with her text messages
852
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:09,080
to aid her recollection of events.
853
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:16,119
She stuck to the same account
854
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:18,600
that she couldn't recall
any further details.
855
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:22,559
I don't think it's unusual
to text a colleague
856
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:24,680
to let them know
that someone's passed away.
857
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:27,719
And I don't think it's unusual
to text a colleague
858
00:53:27,720 --> 00:53:29,400
to say you've had a bad day.
859
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:34,520
It's a lot of pressure.
860
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:37,520
You might be on shift
for sort of 14 hours.
861
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:40,119
If a child starts to deteriorate,
862
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:42,920
it's the bedside nurse
that's going to pick up on that.
863
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:45,360
It's scary.
864
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:49,160
The way you process it
is through talking to your colleagues.
865
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:52,560
So I don't understand
what motive they were trying to make.
866
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:07,400
During the trial, Lucy Letby was asked
about her Facebook searches.
867
00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:11,799
[Paul] Lucy Letby spent some time
looking up Zoe's parents
868
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:15,280
and searching on Facebook
both Mum and Dad, which was odd.
869
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:21,000
[Danielle] On 25th June,
you did a Facebook search for ***.
870
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:25,120
And on 25th June again,
you then searched for *****.
871
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:28,760
Do you agree you made those searches
on Facebook, Lucy?
872
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:33,760
I don't think I recall doing it,
but, yes, I must have if it's there, yeah.
873
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:40,359
[man] Were you looking for photographs
of the babies, Lucy?
874
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:41,200
No.
875
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:46,639
The defense said there's nothing sinister
in these searches at all.
876
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:50,199
Effectively, they said,
"She's just a bit nosy."
877
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:52,320
- You don't know what you were looking for?
- No.
878
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:58,319
[Kim] There was a lot
of circumstantial evidence in this case
879
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:00,679
that, in the cold light of day,
880
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:03,199
didn't always look good for Letby.
881
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:07,119
But there's nothing illegal
about texting a colleague
882
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:10,240
or searching for somebody on Facebook.
883
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:13,559
To prove the case beyond doubt,
884
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:16,720
the prosecution needed
something more concrete.
885
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:24,679
A lot of the evidence in this case
was dense and complicated, medically.
886
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:28,320
But two cases,
according to the prosecution,
887
00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:32,479
there was incontrovertible evidence.
There's no dispute.
888
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:36,000
We've got a record of this happening,
and she can't deny it.
889
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:42,639
There were two babies in the trial
that Lucy Letby was accused of harming
890
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:45,440
by administering insulin to them
when they didn't need it.
891
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:50,559
It's extremely dangerous to give anyone
insulin when they don't need it.
892
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:52,520
It can cause coma and even death.
893
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:56,839
[man] Whoever gave him his insulin
would have done so
894
00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:59,159
knowing it would've placed him
in harm's way
895
00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:00,679
and could have caused his death
896
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:04,839
or led to him having
irreversible life-changing injuries.
897
00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:07,000
Do you agree with that statement, Lucy?
898
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:09,079
Yes.
899
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:10,840
[frenetic string music playing]
900
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:14,879
[Kim] In court, Letby's defense team
901
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:19,399
had to agree
that this was done deliberately.
902
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:23,079
There was a poisoner on the ward,
903
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:25,320
but it must've been somebody else.
904
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:30,399
[Simon] Even Lucy Letby agreed
that the artificial insulin
905
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:34,999
had been administered into babies
and had caused collapses.
906
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:36,800
So somebody's done that.
907
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:40,079
[Maisie] When they asked Lucy,
908
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:45,039
"Do you accept that there'd been
synthetic insulin in the baby's system?"
909
00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:48,720
that's the evidence that's being presented
to her. She can't not accept it.
910
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:52,519
But by saying, "Yes, I accept it,"
911
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:55,560
it was almost like they were trying
to trap her into saying, "And I did it."
912
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:04,559
[Danielle] Lucy Letby wasn't just on shift
at crucial times.
913
00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:09,999
Her signature was on vital medication,
including a nutrition bag,
914
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:14,680
which our experts were saying
was contaminated with insulin.
915
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:19,200
[man] You've confirmed your signature
on the TPN prescription.
916
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:22,239
- Did you administer…
- No.
917
00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:24,560
- …insulin into the bags of TPN, Lucy?
- No.
918
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:32,879
[Danielle] These nutrition bags were kept
in the same locked fridge as the insulin,
919
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:36,760
a fridge that Lucy Letby had access to
with the keys.
920
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:42,720
Lucy Letby had a clear opportunity
to commit these crimes.
921
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:48,239
Now, it could have been accidental,
or it was deliberate,
922
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:52,080
and the Crown's case was always
that it was deliberate sabotage.
923
00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:57,160
Letby's defense team
struggled to counter that.
924
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:02,759
When you look at all the evidence
that was presented,
925
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:05,680
objectively,
it couldn't have been anyone else.
926
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:08,919
[man] The question to you is,
did you administer insulin?
927
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:10,079
No.
928
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:12,040
[man] Because the experts think
someone has.
929
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:14,039
You were caring for him.
930
00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:15,000
I didn't.
931
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:17,120
- [man] Do you know who did?
- No.
932
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:22,159
[Dr. Evans] Now the jury had evidence
933
00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:26,880
of a baby who had been
deliberately poisoned with some substance.
934
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:29,719
To use the vernacular,
935
00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:31,600
it was a smoking gun.
936
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:35,359
[click followed by buzzing]
937
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:37,479
[music fades]
938
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:40,639
[Kim] Assessing the character
of Lucy Letby,
939
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:44,319
it's fair to say
there is a missing piece of the jigsaw,
940
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:48,000
and that's the question of,
"Why has all this happened?"
941
00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:52,279
The one thing that stood out
942
00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:55,959
was the Post-it notes
found in the police searches.
943
00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:58,000
[mysterious music playing]
944
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:02,280
These notes are quite mesmerizing.
945
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:05,840
They're like a Jackson Pollock painting
946
00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:07,920
but with words.
947
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:14,639
There's no room. They're completely
filled up with odd phrases, odd words.
948
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:16,200
It's a confusing picture.
949
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:18,680
[Paul] "I killed them,"
950
00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:23,680
"I am evil," "I did this,"
is a shocking thing to read.
951
00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:28,159
[Danielle] What is it
that's driven her to write that,
952
00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:30,039
and what is it that she's done
953
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:32,480
that's made her believe
that she is an evil person?
954
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:37,840
[Danielle] You wrote a note saying,
"I am evil. I did this."
955
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:40,119
"I don't deserve to live."
956
00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:41,880
"I killed them on purpose."
957
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:44,680
"I am a horrible, evil person."
958
00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:47,959
Explain why this is to us.
959
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:49,000
No comment.
960
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:55,800
[Kim] In everybody's mind,
you think, "Done deal."
961
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:57,760
"Game over."
962
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:02,880
"She's committed these crimes,
and she's confessed to them on paper."
963
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:08,119
[Maisie] One thing I'll never understand
964
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:11,840
is why the defense didn't call
any expert witnesses.
965
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:15,959
You had the one from the prosecution
who was able to say whatever they wanted,
966
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:18,000
and I felt like Lucy didn't have anyone
967
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:23,280
to stand with her and say,
"These are the other explanations."
968
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:33,399
[reporter] The jury in the trial
of the nurse Lucy Letby
969
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:35,879
has retired to consider its verdict.
970
01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:37,880
[ominous music playing]
971
01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:42,680
[Sarah] Waiting for the verdict was very
972
01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:44,840
stressful.
973
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:49,400
I felt helpless.
974
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:55,199
[Maisie] I remember
just constantly being like,
975
01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:56,600
"When this is over,"
976
01:00:57,120 --> 01:00:59,600
you know, "when the truth is out,
977
01:01:00,280 --> 01:01:02,280
when they realize they've made a mistake,
978
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:06,200
this is what we're going to do.
These are the plans we're going to make."
979
01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:11,200
[Kim] This goes one of two ways.
980
01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:13,639
Either she's innocent
981
01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:17,079
and she's this terrible victim
of miscarriage of justice
982
01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:19,719
who's had her whole life
turned upside down,
983
01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:21,719
or, alternatively,
984
01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:23,960
she's a child serial killer.
985
01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:28,839
The stakes couldn't get any higher.
986
01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:30,840
[stirring music playing]
987
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:35,599
We want to bring you
this very urgent breaking news.
988
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:37,719
Lucy Letby has been found guilty…
989
01:01:37,720 --> 01:01:41,799
…of murdering seven babies,
of attempting to murder six others…
990
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:47,119
Calculating, cunning,
cruel, cowardly serial killer Lucy Letby.
991
01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:50,359
Tonight, she eclipses Myra Hindley
and Beverley Allitt
992
01:01:50,360 --> 01:01:53,919
to become the worst child murderer
in British modern history.
993
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:57,319
After a ten-month trial,
Lucy Letby has now been found guilty.
994
01:01:57,320 --> 01:02:00,639
This is probably the most evil woman
I've ever heard of.
995
01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:04,960
The most prolific child serial killer
of modern times.
996
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:10,199
[music fades]
997
01:02:10,200 --> 01:02:13,800
[Maisie] I just couldn't imagine,
like, why they'd done this.
998
01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:17,880
Once I got over
the disbelief of all of it,
999
01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:20,400
I was just really scared for her.
1000
01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:25,359
I felt relieved, happy,
1001
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:29,200
and then instantly… broken
1002
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:31,279
because now this is true,
1003
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:36,200
and… I can't escape this reality.
1004
01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:44,760
[Simon] There was no elation
or satisfaction from myself or the team.
1005
01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:50,000
For those families,
it was just a… overwhelmingly
1006
01:02:50,800 --> 01:02:54,680
difficult, traumatic… outcome.
1007
01:02:56,480 --> 01:03:02,159
Lucy Letby, because the seriousness
of your offenses is exceptionally high,
1008
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:05,680
you will spend the rest of your life
in prison.
1009
01:03:09,640 --> 01:03:13,960
[Sarah] I felt I needed to say sorry
to my daughter.
1010
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:19,640
In my head, I failed… as a mum.
1011
01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:23,999
I was asleep when this was happening,
1012
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:26,000
and I…
1013
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:32,600
stayed up all throughout… the painful…
1014
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:36,839
labor, birth,
1015
01:03:36,840 --> 01:03:41,159
and when she needed me, I wasn't there.
1016
01:03:41,160 --> 01:03:43,400
This is not something I…
1017
01:03:45,840 --> 01:03:47,440
forgive myself.
1018
01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:07,759
[man] Having followed the Lucy Letby case
from the moment of arrest
1019
01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:09,680
and seen this play out,
1020
01:04:10,200 --> 01:04:11,439
as a barrister,
1021
01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:13,440
I was deeply concerned.
1022
01:04:14,360 --> 01:04:16,239
We have to remember,
1023
01:04:16,240 --> 01:04:18,720
{\an8}no one saw her do anything wrong.
1024
01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:21,439
{\an8}There's no CCTV.
1025
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:23,320
There was no motive.
1026
01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:25,719
None.
1027
01:04:25,720 --> 01:04:28,719
Joining us now is Mark McDonald,
criminal barrister. Good morning to you.
1028
01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:29,639
Morning.
1029
01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:34,359
What are your thoughts on
a very complicated, very emotional case?
1030
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:36,679
{\an8}It is a complicated
and it is an emotional case,
1031
01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:39,239
{\an8}but it actually follows
a long line of convictions
1032
01:04:39,240 --> 01:04:41,559
{\an8}that have happened in this country
and internationally.
1033
01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:43,279
{\an8}Many of those convictions
1034
01:04:43,280 --> 01:04:45,599
{\an8}have been found to be
miscarriages of justice.
1035
01:04:45,600 --> 01:04:50,679
{\an8}Each one of the hypotheses
that were put forward by the experts
1036
01:04:50,680 --> 01:04:51,959
{\an8}was a theory.
1037
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:54,599
{\an8}The jury have been sitting through
all of this evidence.
1038
01:04:54,600 --> 01:04:57,519
{\an8}- They have made that decision--
- And they may have got it wrong.
1039
01:04:57,520 --> 01:04:59,799
It was the first time
1040
01:04:59,800 --> 01:05:04,319
that somebody had spoken publicly
and said, "Hold on here."
1041
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:07,080
"I think something's gone seriously wrong
in this case."
1042
01:05:08,720 --> 01:05:12,439
Following the interview,
I was approached by Lucy's parents.
1043
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:14,239
They were distraught.
1044
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:18,119
They had nowhere to go,
and they asked me to help,
1045
01:05:18,120 --> 01:05:19,880
and I said yes.
1046
01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:24,120
So I started looking at the case.
1047
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:28,880
Now, the defense didn't call
any expert evidence at all.
1048
01:05:29,960 --> 01:05:32,080
I don't know why.
1049
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:34,960
Whether or not they just thought
1050
01:05:36,120 --> 01:05:40,040
the charges were so ridiculous
they wouldn't be needed, I don't know.
1051
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:41,840
But I wish they had.
1052
01:05:44,080 --> 01:05:48,159
{\an8}[Mark] When I was instructed,
I was presented with one narrative.
1053
01:05:48,160 --> 01:05:51,039
{\an8}There was no questioning
in relation to her conviction.
1054
01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:53,040
{\an8}Letby was guilty.
1055
01:05:53,560 --> 01:05:57,520
{\an8}There were newspapers
that had the words "evil" across them.
1056
01:05:58,560 --> 01:06:02,840
But they knew the flaws of the way
the prosecution had presented their case.
1057
01:06:04,320 --> 01:06:06,199
There were several times
throughout the trial
1058
01:06:06,200 --> 01:06:08,760
that they referred to scribbles,
1059
01:06:09,320 --> 01:06:12,840
where Lucy had written her thoughts down.
1060
01:06:13,400 --> 01:06:16,479
[Kim] "I am evil." "I did this."
1061
01:06:16,480 --> 01:06:20,440
That was the note that went on
all the front pages the next day.
1062
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:27,360
What didn't go on the front page were
the notes which kind of contradicted that.
1063
01:06:27,880 --> 01:06:29,759
Words like "slander,"
1064
01:06:29,760 --> 01:06:31,319
"discrimination,"
1065
01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:32,880
"victimization,"
1066
01:06:33,400 --> 01:06:34,680
"bastards."
1067
01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:42,799
[man] Okay, Lucy, I am really concerned
about what you've written down
1068
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:45,000
and what you've implied you might've done.
1069
01:06:48,120 --> 01:06:49,560
Anything you want to tell us?
1070
01:06:51,440 --> 01:06:54,240
I just wrote it
'cause everything had got on top of me.
1071
01:06:58,000 --> 01:07:01,720
It was when I had not long found out
I'd been removed from the unit.
1072
01:07:06,280 --> 01:07:09,519
I felt like they were…
blaming my practice,
1073
01:07:09,520 --> 01:07:13,120
that I might have hurt them
without knowing, through my practice,
1074
01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:15,960
and that made me feel guilty.
1075
01:07:19,080 --> 01:07:22,120
[man] Do you want to elaborate on
some of the things you put down on there?
1076
01:07:25,440 --> 01:07:27,200
I was blaming myself.
1077
01:07:31,520 --> 01:07:32,959
But not because I'd done something.
1078
01:07:32,960 --> 01:07:36,040
Because of the way
people were making me feel.
1079
01:07:41,760 --> 01:07:43,959
I felt like I'd only ever done my best
for those babies,
1080
01:07:43,960 --> 01:07:47,479
and then people were trying to say
that my practice wasn't good
1081
01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:51,120
or that I'd done something,
and I just… I couldn't cope with it.
1082
01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:57,920
And I did just not wanna be here anymore.
1083
01:08:00,160 --> 01:08:04,040
[man] You say, "There are no words.
"I can't breathe. I can't focus."
1084
01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:07,960
I just felt like it was all just
1085
01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:12,599
spiraling out of control.
I just didn't know how to feel about it
1086
01:08:12,600 --> 01:08:14,720
or what was gonna happen or what to do.
1087
01:08:17,320 --> 01:08:21,119
Just felt that the trust and the team
were trying to imply
1088
01:08:21,120 --> 01:08:23,640
that it was something that I'd done.
1089
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:28,480
[man] Was there any individuals
that… implied that?
1090
01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:33,639
[somber music playing]
1091
01:08:33,640 --> 01:08:35,840
Yeah, some of the consultants.
1092
01:08:37,440 --> 01:08:41,520
[man] Can you give a reason why
they might wanna victimize you or…
1093
01:08:43,760 --> 01:08:45,480
point the finger towards you?
1094
01:08:49,520 --> 01:08:52,599
It crossed my mind at times whether
they were trying to put the blame on me
1095
01:08:52,600 --> 01:08:54,720
for something that somebody else had done.
1096
01:08:57,800 --> 01:09:00,959
[Mark] When Lucy Letby
was taken off the unit,
1097
01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:05,639
she was given counseling and support
by occupational therapy
1098
01:09:05,640 --> 01:09:07,760
at the Countess of Chester Hospital.
1099
01:09:08,320 --> 01:09:12,479
She was told to write down her feelings
and her thoughts
1100
01:09:12,480 --> 01:09:14,439
as a form of therapy.
1101
01:09:14,440 --> 01:09:18,719
It wasn't a confession note… at all.
1102
01:09:18,720 --> 01:09:21,879
If we're to believe
that she did write the notes
1103
01:09:21,880 --> 01:09:24,599
shortly after she was removed
from the unit,
1104
01:09:24,600 --> 01:09:27,280
her version of events were plausible.
1105
01:09:28,480 --> 01:09:31,440
[woman] In terms of
overwhelming fear and panic,
1106
01:09:31,960 --> 01:09:33,880
what were you afraid of?
1107
01:09:34,400 --> 01:09:37,160
That they were going to think
I had done something wrong.
1108
01:09:37,680 --> 01:09:41,480
[woman] Okay, and what would happen
if they thought that?
1109
01:09:42,560 --> 01:09:44,040
That this would happen.
1110
01:09:44,800 --> 01:09:47,360
- [woman] Right.
- That the police would get involved.
1111
01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:50,680
- [woman] And is that what happened--
- And I'd lose my job.
1112
01:09:54,080 --> 01:09:56,080
[woman] And was it a job that you enjoyed?
1113
01:09:57,000 --> 01:09:58,000
Yeah. [sobs]
1114
01:09:58,960 --> 01:10:00,719
Yeah, I loved my job.
1115
01:10:00,720 --> 01:10:01,720
[woman] Okay.
1116
01:10:03,480 --> 01:10:07,439
[Kim] From the defense perspective,
she was a devoted nurse
1117
01:10:07,440 --> 01:10:10,039
who had been moved away
from the job she loved,
1118
01:10:10,040 --> 01:10:13,080
who was mentally anguished, distraught.
1119
01:10:14,200 --> 01:10:20,399
In many ways, the Post-it note neatly
sums up the complexities of the case.
1120
01:10:20,400 --> 01:10:22,360
At first blush,
1121
01:10:23,440 --> 01:10:27,039
it does look like just a plain confession.
1122
01:10:27,040 --> 01:10:28,960
But when you delve deeper,
1123
01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:32,080
things were not so straightforward.
1124
01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:38,960
[Maisie] Up until the trial
and the verdict,
1125
01:10:39,480 --> 01:10:42,480
I would write to Lucy,
and she would write back.
1126
01:10:44,720 --> 01:10:46,640
{\an8}I would always try to be really positive.
1127
01:10:47,280 --> 01:10:49,040
And now I don't know what to say.
1128
01:10:52,240 --> 01:10:55,439
"Maisie, there are no words
to describe my situation,
1129
01:10:55,440 --> 01:10:58,319
but knowing that I have
your friendship, regardless,
1130
01:10:58,320 --> 01:10:59,920
is so important and special to me."
1131
01:11:01,480 --> 01:11:03,640
"I have my own room and toilet."
1132
01:11:04,240 --> 01:11:07,439
"I'm able to shower each day
and go outside for a walk."
1133
01:11:07,440 --> 01:11:10,920
"Getting outside is so important,
even though it's a bit chilly."
1134
01:11:11,440 --> 01:11:13,759
"I miss Tigger and Smudge so much.
It's heartbreaking
1135
01:11:13,760 --> 01:11:16,239
that they cannot understand
why I'm no longer there."
1136
01:11:16,240 --> 01:11:18,599
"They must think I'm a terrible mummy."
1137
01:11:18,600 --> 01:11:22,640
"Mum and Dad are taking good care of them,
though, and are no doubt spoiling them."
1138
01:11:23,160 --> 01:11:26,439
"I'm trying to do all that I can
to remain strong and positive."
1139
01:11:26,440 --> 01:11:29,400
[voice breaking] "I'm determined
to get through this. I will not give up."
1140
01:11:32,520 --> 01:11:33,680
I'm sorry.
1141
01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:42,840
[solemn music playing]
1142
01:11:43,480 --> 01:11:48,280
[Mark] Something quite spectacular
took place in the summer of '24.
1143
01:11:48,800 --> 01:11:52,720
A journalist in America
for The New Yorker magazine
1144
01:11:53,320 --> 01:11:56,839
dissected everything
that may have gone wrong at that trial
1145
01:11:56,840 --> 01:12:00,920
and turned the spotlight from Lucy Letby
1146
01:12:01,920 --> 01:12:03,760
to the Countess of Chester Hospital.
1147
01:12:05,480 --> 01:12:09,879
And what the article did
was sow the seeds of doubt,
1148
01:12:09,880 --> 01:12:12,239
asking the ultimate question,
1149
01:12:12,240 --> 01:12:15,319
"Was this unit fit for purpose?"
1150
01:12:15,320 --> 01:12:18,560
And, "Was Lucy Letby
being used as a scapegoat?"
1151
01:12:20,040 --> 01:12:22,600
This was a unit in crisis.
1152
01:12:23,200 --> 01:12:27,279
Nurses were crying at the end of the shift
because of the stress,
1153
01:12:27,280 --> 01:12:29,319
because of them being overworked,
1154
01:12:29,320 --> 01:12:32,159
because of them having
so many babies on the unit
1155
01:12:32,160 --> 01:12:35,160
and not having the staff
or the resources to run it.
1156
01:12:36,920 --> 01:12:40,679
[Maisie] I remember
being left maybe once a week
1157
01:12:40,680 --> 01:12:42,799
on my own with a high-dependency baby
1158
01:12:42,800 --> 01:12:46,039
and being told,
"So they'll probably be fine,
1159
01:12:46,040 --> 01:12:48,920
but if they go blue,
just give us a shout."
1160
01:12:49,840 --> 01:12:53,639
A student nurse should never be left alone
with a high-dependency baby, ever.
1161
01:12:53,640 --> 01:12:55,640
[music intensifies]
1162
01:13:00,200 --> 01:13:02,959
[Mark] One of the most compelling parts
of the prosecution case,
1163
01:13:02,960 --> 01:13:04,559
certainly in their opening speech,
1164
01:13:04,560 --> 01:13:08,240
was the rota that had the Xs
down the whole column.
1165
01:13:10,800 --> 01:13:14,719
The purpose of such a rota is simple.
It's compelling evidence for the jury,
1166
01:13:14,720 --> 01:13:19,000
and they can say that she was always there
when something went wrong.
1167
01:13:20,960 --> 01:13:23,079
But the fact is
we know this is a very small unit,
1168
01:13:23,080 --> 01:13:25,479
and she did extra shifts.
1169
01:13:25,480 --> 01:13:28,599
We also know
that Lucy Letby had done extra courses
1170
01:13:28,600 --> 01:13:31,959
and was more qualified than many
of the nurses that worked on the unit,
1171
01:13:31,960 --> 01:13:35,080
which meant that she got
the sickest babies.
1172
01:13:35,600 --> 01:13:37,879
So the real question is, it seems to me,
1173
01:13:37,880 --> 01:13:40,920
it would be odd if she wasn't there
when something went wrong.
1174
01:13:43,160 --> 01:13:48,159
During the trial, the prosecution kept on
saying to the jury,
1175
01:13:48,160 --> 01:13:53,239
"The babies stopped dying
when Lucy Letby was taken off the unit."
1176
01:13:53,240 --> 01:13:57,239
But the moment
that Lucy Letby was taken off that unit,
1177
01:13:57,240 --> 01:13:58,799
it was downgraded,
1178
01:13:58,800 --> 01:14:04,600
which meant it did not receive
as many babies that were seriously ill,
1179
01:14:05,200 --> 01:14:09,240
which meant the mortality rates
were always going to drop.
1180
01:14:11,400 --> 01:14:17,120
I felt that it was important to expose
the flaws in what had taken place.
1181
01:14:17,720 --> 01:14:22,119
But to be able to do that,
I needed to change the narrative.
1182
01:14:22,120 --> 01:14:24,159
[reporter] I'm joined now
by Mark McDonald.
1183
01:14:24,160 --> 01:14:26,399
{\an8}Mark McDonald joins us now.
1184
01:14:26,400 --> 01:14:28,759
I think I've got quite a lot of evidence
1185
01:14:28,760 --> 01:14:31,479
to say that there are
some real concerns here.
1186
01:14:31,480 --> 01:14:34,479
Suddenly, it started to mushroom.
1187
01:14:34,480 --> 01:14:37,959
[man] Lucy Letby was convicted
of murdering seven infants
1188
01:14:37,960 --> 01:14:40,719
and attempting to murder seven more,
which, in my view,
1189
01:14:40,720 --> 01:14:42,559
is a clear miscarriage of justice
1190
01:14:42,560 --> 01:14:45,999
by a judicial system that could not manage
1191
01:14:46,000 --> 01:14:50,199
admittedly difficult statistical
and medical scientific evidence.
1192
01:14:50,200 --> 01:14:53,879
Central to the prosecution case
was a man called Dr. Dewi Evans.
1193
01:14:53,880 --> 01:14:56,240
He was their lead prosecution expert.
1194
01:14:57,320 --> 01:15:00,599
He was the person
who had seen these medical notes
1195
01:15:00,600 --> 01:15:04,159
right from the beginning
and come up with the initial hypothesis
1196
01:15:04,160 --> 01:15:08,759
of how each baby,
he says, died or became ill.
1197
01:15:08,760 --> 01:15:10,919
It all centered around him
1198
01:15:10,920 --> 01:15:14,520
and his reliability as an expert witness.
1199
01:15:16,040 --> 01:15:19,520
During the trial,
the most remarkable thing had happened.
1200
01:15:20,440 --> 01:15:25,679
A Court of Appeal judge sent an email
to the trial judge
1201
01:15:25,680 --> 01:15:30,079
criticizing, in very robust terms,
Dr. Dewi Evans,
1202
01:15:30,080 --> 01:15:33,599
saying that he would tailor his evidence
1203
01:15:33,600 --> 01:15:36,520
depending upon who was instructing him.
1204
01:15:37,320 --> 01:15:41,080
In short, he is biased.
1205
01:15:41,880 --> 01:15:45,519
Why would a senior judge
who's not involved in the trial
1206
01:15:45,520 --> 01:15:50,079
let the trial judge know
the serious concerns he had
1207
01:15:50,080 --> 01:15:53,720
in relation to the reliability
of Dr. Dewi Evans?
1208
01:15:54,320 --> 01:15:57,879
But my problem was that
the Court of Appeal had come to the view
1209
01:15:57,880 --> 01:16:01,160
that Dr. Dewi Evans was a reliable expert.
1210
01:16:01,680 --> 01:16:04,479
So what I needed to do was to find out
1211
01:16:04,480 --> 01:16:09,479
whether or not
what he was saying was correct.
1212
01:16:09,480 --> 01:16:14,840
I needed not the person who read
the book and became the expert.
1213
01:16:15,360 --> 01:16:17,680
I needed the person who wrote the book.
1214
01:16:22,280 --> 01:16:25,000
[music fades]
1215
01:16:26,520 --> 01:16:29,120
[man] I was in the middle of harvest
on the farm and quite busy
1216
01:16:30,240 --> 01:16:33,720
when an email appeared on my phone.
1217
01:16:34,360 --> 01:16:36,320
It was from a lawyer in the UK.
1218
01:16:36,840 --> 01:16:41,399
{\an8}A paper that I had written in 1989
on air embolism had been used
1219
01:16:41,400 --> 01:16:44,800
to convict a nurse in an ICU in the UK.
1220
01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:50,119
[Mark] Dr. Shoo Lee was
absolutely crucial.
1221
01:16:50,120 --> 01:16:52,159
It was his paper, his research.
1222
01:16:52,160 --> 01:16:54,239
If it wasn't correctly interpreted,
1223
01:16:54,240 --> 01:16:57,480
does that mean
that Dr. Dewi Evans got it wrong?
1224
01:17:01,240 --> 01:17:02,599
[Dr. Lee] I was worried
1225
01:17:02,600 --> 01:17:05,719
because if my paper
had been misinterpreted,
1226
01:17:05,720 --> 01:17:07,400
then we've got a big problem on our hands.
1227
01:17:09,600 --> 01:17:13,359
I looked at the evidence,
and I realized that they did not describe
1228
01:17:13,360 --> 01:17:18,320
the kind of skin discoloration
that were diagnostic of air embolism.
1229
01:17:18,840 --> 01:17:20,479
What they had described
1230
01:17:20,480 --> 01:17:25,560
was skin discoloration
due to hypoxia, or lack of oxygen.
1231
01:17:26,160 --> 01:17:29,359
This means
that the conviction was potentially wrong.
1232
01:17:29,360 --> 01:17:30,840
I was very troubled.
1233
01:17:31,360 --> 01:17:34,279
Potentially, a young woman could be
in jail for the rest of her life
1234
01:17:34,280 --> 01:17:36,480
and to die in prison for the wrong reason.
1235
01:17:38,080 --> 01:17:40,839
I told Mark McDonald
that I would assist in the case,
1236
01:17:40,840 --> 01:17:45,879
and I would convene a panel of 14
of the top experts from around the world
1237
01:17:45,880 --> 01:17:50,120
whose expertise, credibility,
and knowledge were beyond reproach.
1238
01:17:52,360 --> 01:17:55,359
Our aim was to write a detailed report
1239
01:17:55,360 --> 01:17:59,760
about the causes of death or injury
in each of the cases.
1240
01:18:04,360 --> 01:18:08,320
[Paul] Mr. McDonald is representing
his client, and he's got a job to do.
1241
01:18:09,680 --> 01:18:12,079
We've always said
that we would invite any challenge
1242
01:18:12,080 --> 01:18:13,920
because I think challenge is good.
1243
01:18:14,720 --> 01:18:18,720
And so we looked forward to hearing
what they'd got to say.
1244
01:18:24,280 --> 01:18:27,320
[Dr. Lee] Coming to London,
I felt a tremendous pressure.
1245
01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:31,039
We were going to convey
the results of the panel
1246
01:18:31,040 --> 01:18:35,880
whose opinions would have a huge bearing
on the outcomes of this case,
1247
01:18:36,400 --> 01:18:38,279
not only for Lucy Letby
1248
01:18:38,280 --> 01:18:42,400
but also for the families, for the public,
and for the judicial system.
1249
01:18:45,320 --> 01:18:47,080
We are surrounded.
1250
01:18:48,040 --> 01:18:50,399
Hello, everybody. [chuckles]
1251
01:18:50,400 --> 01:18:53,959
You're absolutely convinced
that an innocent woman has been sentenced?
1252
01:18:53,960 --> 01:18:54,999
[David Davis] Yes, I am.
1253
01:18:55,000 --> 01:18:57,280
- [man] Thank you for your time.
- We've got to get started.
1254
01:18:59,480 --> 01:19:03,319
Right, we're going to start a little early
since there are one or two of you here.
1255
01:19:03,320 --> 01:19:06,999
What we're here to do
is to present a report
1256
01:19:07,000 --> 01:19:09,599
which is the idea,
1257
01:19:09,600 --> 01:19:13,079
the genesis of Dr. Shoo Lee,
who's sitting next to me.
1258
01:19:13,080 --> 01:19:17,879
With no more ado,
may I introduce, uh, Dr. Shoo Lee,
1259
01:19:17,880 --> 01:19:20,120
uh, the star of today's show.
1260
01:19:20,640 --> 01:19:21,759
Thank you.
1261
01:19:21,760 --> 01:19:24,759
[Sarah] "Here is the star of the show."
1262
01:19:24,760 --> 01:19:26,199
This is not a show.
1263
01:19:26,200 --> 01:19:27,559
There is no star.
1264
01:19:27,560 --> 01:19:30,280
This is nothing to smile about.
1265
01:19:31,200 --> 01:19:37,160
The audacity from a politician
to introduce someone like this,
1266
01:19:37,680 --> 01:19:38,999
it is disgusting.
1267
01:19:39,000 --> 01:19:42,559
Just to summarize all the findings we had
1268
01:19:42,560 --> 01:19:45,000
in terms of the medical problems
that we are seeing,
1269
01:19:46,200 --> 01:19:49,000
we found that the medical histories
were incomplete.
1270
01:19:50,360 --> 01:19:53,680
There was misdiagnosis of diseases
in these babies,
1271
01:19:54,200 --> 01:19:57,120
inadequate numbers of appropriately
trained personnel in the unit,
1272
01:19:57,720 --> 01:20:00,760
and difficulty in finding a doctor
when the need arose.
1273
01:20:02,680 --> 01:20:04,599
[Dr. Gibbs] Professor Lee was very clear
1274
01:20:04,600 --> 01:20:06,919
that harm had not been
deliberately inflicted
1275
01:20:06,920 --> 01:20:08,519
on any of the babies,
1276
01:20:08,520 --> 01:20:11,599
and it was substandard care
that had led to the babies collapsing.
1277
01:20:11,600 --> 01:20:13,360
In some of them, their death.
1278
01:20:14,000 --> 01:20:17,879
It's frustrating
because in some of the criticisms,
1279
01:20:17,880 --> 01:20:19,480
there's a kernel of truth.
1280
01:20:20,160 --> 01:20:21,999
We were understaffed.
1281
01:20:22,000 --> 01:20:26,999
That's generally true in most departments,
on most wards in the NHS.
1282
01:20:27,000 --> 01:20:32,559
But we'd had those same staffing pressures
before 2015, 2016,
1283
01:20:32,560 --> 01:20:34,360
and we'd not had
those increased deaths then.
1284
01:20:38,760 --> 01:20:42,359
So blaming a colleague,
which is a dreadful thing to do,
1285
01:20:42,360 --> 01:20:45,479
for possibly murdering
and attempting to murder babies
1286
01:20:45,480 --> 01:20:48,959
is the worst way in the world
to try and cover up
1287
01:20:48,960 --> 01:20:52,040
problems and inadequacies
on the neonatal unit.
1288
01:20:56,400 --> 01:21:02,199
One of the first things I did was look to
the survival rates of babies in Chester
1289
01:21:02,200 --> 01:21:04,960
prior to all the deaths
and all of the collapses.
1290
01:21:06,960 --> 01:21:11,519
And the survival rate
was as good as the official figures
1291
01:21:11,520 --> 01:21:13,840
for England and Wales for those years.
1292
01:21:14,920 --> 01:21:17,480
This was not a failing unit.
1293
01:21:18,640 --> 01:21:20,839
They had to resuscitate the baby using…
1294
01:21:20,840 --> 01:21:24,799
[Dr. Lee] We went through
case by case of each baby.
1295
01:21:24,800 --> 01:21:29,479
Now, the allegation
is that baby four was a stable baby
1296
01:21:29,480 --> 01:21:32,239
after the baby was born
and admitted to the NICU.
1297
01:21:32,240 --> 01:21:36,799
This was not a stable baby,
as alleged by the prosecution witness.
1298
01:21:36,800 --> 01:21:40,360
I wasn't warned they were gonna bring up
my daughter's case.
1299
01:21:40,960 --> 01:21:45,479
This baby was born after prolonged
premature rupture of membranes.
1300
01:21:45,480 --> 01:21:47,280
If the membrane is ruptured,
1301
01:21:48,000 --> 01:21:49,320
infection can ascend.
1302
01:21:49,920 --> 01:21:52,999
{\an8}The mother should be
given antibiotics right away
1303
01:21:53,000 --> 01:21:56,120
{\an8}so that the baby can be
protected from any infection.
1304
01:21:56,640 --> 01:21:58,680
{\an8}In this case, that was not done.
1305
01:22:01,440 --> 01:22:03,119
[Sarah] Once my water had broken,
1306
01:22:03,120 --> 01:22:05,639
they should've
given me antibiotics quicker.
1307
01:22:05,640 --> 01:22:08,560
They failed me. They failed Zoe.
1308
01:22:10,600 --> 01:22:15,319
But every doctor, nurse, and expert
all clearly said
1309
01:22:15,320 --> 01:22:17,639
Zoe was improving.
1310
01:22:17,640 --> 01:22:20,000
She was getting better.
She was getting stronger.
1311
01:22:20,680 --> 01:22:23,279
There was delay in starting antibiotics
1312
01:22:23,280 --> 01:22:26,880
and delay in starting treatment
for the respiratory distress.
1313
01:22:27,400 --> 01:22:30,280
We did not find any evidence
of air embolism.
1314
01:22:32,360 --> 01:22:35,199
[Dr. Evans] Well, I don't agree
with Dr. Lee.
1315
01:22:35,200 --> 01:22:37,399
He's not produced any new evidence.
1316
01:22:37,400 --> 01:22:40,399
All he's done is produce new opinion.
1317
01:22:40,400 --> 01:22:42,359
The decision of the jury
1318
01:22:42,360 --> 01:22:47,719
was approved by three eminent,
experienced Court of Appeal judges.
1319
01:22:47,720 --> 01:22:50,800
That should be the end of it,
in my opinion.
1320
01:22:53,320 --> 01:22:56,160
[Dr. Lee] Our conclusion
of this panel, therefore,
1321
01:22:56,760 --> 01:23:02,359
there was no medical evidence to support
malfeasance causing death or injury
1322
01:23:02,360 --> 01:23:04,720
in any of the 17 cases in the trial.
1323
01:23:05,440 --> 01:23:06,839
There were serious problems
1324
01:23:06,840 --> 01:23:10,160
{\an8}related to medical care of patients
at this hospital.
1325
01:23:10,680 --> 01:23:12,919
{\an8}There were problems related to teamwork
1326
01:23:12,920 --> 01:23:18,040
{\an8}and interdisciplinary collaboration
at the Countess of Chester Neonatal Unit.
1327
01:23:20,160 --> 01:23:23,920
{\an8}In summary, ladies and gentlemen,
we did not find any murders.
1328
01:23:24,440 --> 01:23:27,319
If there was no murder,
then there was no murderer.
1329
01:23:27,320 --> 01:23:30,560
And so why was Lucy Letby in jail?
1330
01:23:31,480 --> 01:23:34,560
- [tense music playing]
- [reporter] Baby killer or victim?
1331
01:23:35,320 --> 01:23:38,239
You can see
the level of interest in this case
1332
01:23:38,240 --> 01:23:40,199
that has gripped the UK and beyond.
1333
01:23:40,200 --> 01:23:41,679
If it's not Lucy Letby,
1334
01:23:41,680 --> 01:23:44,919
then there is clearly something else
within that hospital
1335
01:23:44,920 --> 01:23:46,839
that was fundamentally going wrong.
1336
01:23:46,840 --> 01:23:50,439
I'd love your calls. Do you have doubts
over the conviction of Lucy Letby?
1337
01:23:50,440 --> 01:23:53,799
{\an8}[Mark] The press conference
was a game changer.
1338
01:23:53,800 --> 01:23:56,239
{\an8}People were no longer
sitting on the fence.
1339
01:23:56,240 --> 01:24:00,839
{\an8}Please tell me I'm not the only person
at the moment thinking about Lucy Letby
1340
01:24:00,840 --> 01:24:04,519
{\an8}and the fact that it seems
that she has wrongfully been convicted.
1341
01:24:04,520 --> 01:24:08,119
Suddenly, she wasn't
this evil person anymore,
1342
01:24:08,120 --> 01:24:09,479
this angel of death.
1343
01:24:09,480 --> 01:24:13,079
Suddenly, people were asking the question,
1344
01:24:13,080 --> 01:24:15,439
"Is Lucy Letby innocent?"
1345
01:24:15,440 --> 01:24:17,879
{\an8}Nah, bruv. We don't think
she killed those babies.
1346
01:24:17,880 --> 01:24:20,599
My head is absolutely blown by this.
1347
01:24:20,600 --> 01:24:22,799
In a lot
of the serial-killer documentaries,
1348
01:24:22,800 --> 01:24:25,199
they had a weird history.
They were killing animals.
1349
01:24:25,200 --> 01:24:27,479
They weren't like Lucy Letby.
1350
01:24:27,480 --> 01:24:29,120
I don't think she's done it.
1351
01:24:34,960 --> 01:24:36,599
[Dr. Gibbs] Some people are claiming
1352
01:24:36,600 --> 01:24:40,479
that we consultants had
a vendetta against Lucy Letby.
1353
01:24:40,480 --> 01:24:42,239
Where's your evidence for that?
1354
01:24:42,240 --> 01:24:45,559
[message alert tones]
1355
01:24:45,560 --> 01:24:48,360
[Dr. Gibbs] I've been accused online
of killing babies,
1356
01:24:48,880 --> 01:24:50,680
which is shocking.
1357
01:24:52,240 --> 01:24:54,399
[music fades]
1358
01:24:54,400 --> 01:24:55,920
I live with two guilts.
1359
01:24:56,440 --> 01:24:58,519
Guilt that we let the babies down,
1360
01:24:58,520 --> 01:25:01,839
and tiny, tiny, tiny guilt,
1361
01:25:01,840 --> 01:25:03,520
"Did we get the wrong person?"
1362
01:25:04,680 --> 01:25:07,919
There's a guilt, you know, just in case…
miscarriage of justice.
1363
01:25:07,920 --> 01:25:10,479
I don't think
there was a miscarriage of justice.
1364
01:25:10,480 --> 01:25:12,200
But you worry that
1365
01:25:12,960 --> 01:25:15,039
no one actually saw her do it.
1366
01:25:15,040 --> 01:25:17,040
[somber music playing]
1367
01:25:22,600 --> 01:25:25,999
[Maisie] Over the last few years,
I've gone through questioning
1368
01:25:26,000 --> 01:25:30,080
had she presented one side to me
and a different side to other people?
1369
01:25:32,800 --> 01:25:37,879
And there's always doubt
because as much as you… know someone,
1370
01:25:37,880 --> 01:25:41,559
you never… know the whole of someone.
1371
01:25:41,560 --> 01:25:45,359
They can still have…
things that you don't know about them.
1372
01:25:45,360 --> 01:25:46,200
But
1373
01:25:47,400 --> 01:25:50,959
unless I saw actual evidence,
1374
01:25:50,960 --> 01:25:52,360
I can't believe it.
1375
01:25:55,240 --> 01:26:00,320
I know that people think
that… I support a baby murderer.
1376
01:26:01,600 --> 01:26:04,720
But she's my friend and currently in jail.
1377
01:26:06,760 --> 01:26:07,800
Forever.
1378
01:26:16,360 --> 01:26:20,919
[Mark] Dr. Shoo Lee and the experts
finalized the report,
1379
01:26:20,920 --> 01:26:24,039
and I put it
into the Criminal Cases Review Commission,
1380
01:26:24,040 --> 01:26:25,200
the CCRC,
1381
01:26:25,720 --> 01:26:29,519
who, with any hope,
will send it back to the Court of Appeal
1382
01:26:29,520 --> 01:26:31,240
to push for a retrial.
1383
01:26:41,320 --> 01:26:46,920
[Dr. Lee] A young woman could be in jail
for crimes that she did not commit.
1384
01:26:47,840 --> 01:26:49,559
It is a huge responsibility
1385
01:26:49,560 --> 01:26:53,560
because it is
also Lucy's, potentially, last chance.
1386
01:26:58,560 --> 01:27:01,319
[Kim] It's easy
for our villains to be villains
1387
01:27:01,320 --> 01:27:04,400
and to look like villains
and to act like villains.
1388
01:27:07,440 --> 01:27:08,760
That's not Lucy Letby.
1389
01:27:10,080 --> 01:27:14,560
But that doesn't mean she's not capable
of doing what she was convicted of doing.
1390
01:27:18,120 --> 01:27:23,240
What was interesting about this case
was the volume of circumstantial evidence.
1391
01:27:27,440 --> 01:27:30,120
Singularly, they don't prove
1392
01:27:30,640 --> 01:27:33,040
that she's a cold-blooded murderer.
1393
01:27:35,000 --> 01:27:37,120
But when you bring it all together,
1394
01:27:38,000 --> 01:27:40,120
you'll be forgiven for thinking,
1395
01:27:41,280 --> 01:27:44,040
"If this woman's innocent,
1396
01:27:44,720 --> 01:27:47,160
then she's pretty unlucky."
1397
01:27:49,640 --> 01:27:52,279
[Danielle] We've spent several days
1398
01:27:52,280 --> 01:27:54,719
questioning and discussing with you
in depth
1399
01:27:54,720 --> 01:28:00,359
your involvement in the murders
and attempted murders of 17 babies,
1400
01:28:00,360 --> 01:28:03,400
which you have constantly denied, Lucy.
1401
01:28:04,920 --> 01:28:06,919
Have you got any comment you wish to make?
1402
01:28:06,920 --> 01:28:07,960
No comment.
1403
01:28:11,440 --> 01:28:13,799
[Paul] The last message
we wanted to give to families
1404
01:28:13,800 --> 01:28:17,040
was that somebody
had murdered their child.
1405
01:28:18,200 --> 01:28:24,759
The only person who knows truly
why she did each of these awful events
1406
01:28:24,760 --> 01:28:26,240
is Lucy Letby herself.
1407
01:28:28,560 --> 01:28:32,840
[Simon] In an environment now where
there is considerable public discussion,
1408
01:28:33,720 --> 01:28:35,719
I stand by the investigation
1409
01:28:35,720 --> 01:28:37,520
and the search for answers.
1410
01:28:39,960 --> 01:28:41,079
But most importantly,
1411
01:28:41,080 --> 01:28:44,079
we feel for the families
who are having to watch this
1412
01:28:44,080 --> 01:28:49,320
and go through a lot of distressing
suggestions around their babies.
1413
01:28:53,520 --> 01:28:55,360
[music fades]
1414
01:28:55,960 --> 01:28:58,079
[toy jingles]
1415
01:28:58,080 --> 01:29:00,680
[gentle music playing]
1416
01:29:02,600 --> 01:29:05,760
[Sarah] There's no getting over
any of this.
1417
01:29:07,600 --> 01:29:10,040
There's the sorrow,
1418
01:29:10,680 --> 01:29:14,480
but there's the hope
and the love we have for her.
1419
01:29:15,160 --> 01:29:17,839
Ultimately, we're still here,
1420
01:29:17,840 --> 01:29:20,439
and I want to count my blessings
1421
01:29:20,440 --> 01:29:22,840
and appreciate what I have.
1422
01:29:23,360 --> 01:29:25,360
[gentle music building]
1423
01:29:30,880 --> 01:29:34,080
I was strong enough to try again.
1424
01:29:36,840 --> 01:29:41,280
My husband and I have a beautiful son.
1425
01:29:43,400 --> 01:29:45,320
He is our reason
1426
01:29:46,720 --> 01:29:47,640
for everything.
1427
01:29:53,480 --> 01:29:57,560
I have always talked to him about Zoe.
1428
01:30:00,840 --> 01:30:03,480
He knows she died when she was a baby.
1429
01:30:06,120 --> 01:30:08,080
He knows she's in heaven.
1430
01:30:13,880 --> 01:30:17,240
It's been storm after storm, and
1431
01:30:18,640 --> 01:30:19,920
it's not over,
1432
01:30:20,480 --> 01:30:22,320
but I want to make it through.
1433
01:30:27,080 --> 01:30:28,160
[sighs softly]
1434
01:31:10,440 --> 01:31:12,440
[stirring string music playing]
1435
01:32:44,640 --> 01:32:46,720
[music fades]