1 00:00:12,429 --> 00:00:15,849 [Suzy] This was one of the toughest stories I've ever done. 2 00:00:19,853 --> 00:00:21,813 When there is a big train wreck, 3 00:00:21,896 --> 00:00:24,107 you want to go look at it. 4 00:00:24,190 --> 00:00:27,986 This was a train wreck with five babies lying 5 00:00:28,069 --> 00:00:29,070 on the tracks. 6 00:00:30,739 --> 00:00:32,323 -Andrea Yates. -Andrea Yates. 7 00:00:32,406 --> 00:00:34,325 Andrea Yates called 911. 8 00:00:34,409 --> 00:00:35,702 Authorities rushed to her home 9 00:00:35,827 --> 00:00:38,413 only to find her five young children dead. 10 00:00:38,538 --> 00:00:40,498 [reporters continue] Andrea Yates confessing to police 11 00:00:40,582 --> 00:00:41,958 she drowned her children 12 00:00:42,042 --> 00:00:44,669 one by one in the bathtub. 13 00:00:44,753 --> 00:00:50,383 Everyone was horrified. A mother killed her kids? 14 00:00:50,467 --> 00:00:52,385 One of the most heart wrenching tragedies 15 00:00:52,469 --> 00:00:53,845 we have ever heard. 16 00:00:53,928 --> 00:00:56,056 [reporters continue] How could a mother kill her own family? 17 00:00:56,181 --> 00:00:58,058 [Suzy] Everyone was talking about it. 18 00:00:58,183 --> 00:01:00,310 Neighbors are understandably stunned. 19 00:01:00,393 --> 00:01:02,062 I felt so sorry for the children. 20 00:01:02,187 --> 00:01:05,272 It really had to be a lot wrong with that woman's head. 21 00:01:05,397 --> 00:01:07,484 [Suzy] They just immediately hated her. 22 00:01:07,567 --> 00:01:10,153 This was a very evil and calculated woman. 23 00:01:10,236 --> 00:01:13,323 Andrea Yates, she faces capital murder charges if convicted -- 24 00:01:13,406 --> 00:01:14,699 she could be put to death. 25 00:01:14,783 --> 00:01:18,453 The number one question is, "Why, why, why?" 26 00:01:18,578 --> 00:01:21,331 [Suzy] I wanted to find out what was the motive? 27 00:01:21,414 --> 00:01:23,917 How could she do this? 28 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,461 Is this an act that is literally beyond 29 00:01:26,586 --> 00:01:29,464 our comprehension to understand or to deal with? 30 00:01:30,465 --> 00:01:34,551 When I got in that car down to Houston, I had no idea 31 00:01:34,636 --> 00:01:36,012 what I was going to face. 32 00:01:44,270 --> 00:01:47,690 [Oprah Winfrey] One of the most heartbreaking tragedies we have ever heard. 33 00:01:47,774 --> 00:01:51,444 [reporter] Neighbors are understandably stunned. 34 00:01:51,569 --> 00:01:54,405 [man] This mom's actions are a calculated act of evil. 35 00:01:56,116 --> 00:01:59,577 [man #2] These events are beyond our ability to understand. 36 00:02:02,122 --> 00:02:06,292 [Oprah Winfrey] Number one question... why, why, why? 37 00:02:13,967 --> 00:02:16,928 In 2001, I was a freelance writer, 38 00:02:17,011 --> 00:02:19,806 primarily concentrating on true crime. 39 00:02:19,889 --> 00:02:23,810 When I was researching my book, "Breaking Point," I was starting 40 00:02:23,893 --> 00:02:28,481 to get hints that, no, she wasn't this horrible, 41 00:02:28,606 --> 00:02:31,317 evil person that was on the news. 42 00:02:31,442 --> 00:02:34,487 Her neighbors were saying she was a people pleaser 43 00:02:34,571 --> 00:02:36,698 and she was a caretaker. 44 00:02:36,823 --> 00:02:40,243 And everyone said, "What a great mom!" 45 00:02:40,326 --> 00:02:44,122 I was getting a totally different picture of Andrea. 46 00:02:46,416 --> 00:02:48,334 But I knew there was more, 47 00:02:48,459 --> 00:02:50,128 and I couldn't get the full story, 48 00:02:50,211 --> 00:02:52,755 and it was driving me crazy. 49 00:02:52,839 --> 00:02:55,258 I had a few confidential sources, 50 00:02:56,509 --> 00:03:00,930 and one of them told me about this preacher that Andrea 51 00:03:01,014 --> 00:03:02,098 was involved with, 52 00:03:03,224 --> 00:03:05,185 and they called it a cult. 53 00:03:07,896 --> 00:03:10,607 And then one day, I received these letters. 54 00:03:10,690 --> 00:03:13,776 I was totally shocked. I didn't know they were coming. 55 00:03:13,860 --> 00:03:16,112 And it was just sort of... 56 00:03:16,196 --> 00:03:20,491 a mystery source that dropped them in the mailbox to me. 57 00:03:23,328 --> 00:03:26,831 They were letters that Michael and Rachel Woroniecki 58 00:03:26,915 --> 00:03:27,999 wrote to Andrea. 59 00:03:30,251 --> 00:03:32,712 "I know you're frustrated, Andrea. 60 00:03:32,795 --> 00:03:35,673 "I know things are not the way you would like them to be, 61 00:03:35,757 --> 00:03:37,759 but you can change them." 62 00:03:37,884 --> 00:03:40,553 [as Rachel] There will be a day when it is too late. 63 00:03:43,973 --> 00:03:48,478 Andrea was searching. Andrea was lonely. 64 00:03:48,561 --> 00:03:51,481 And through their letters back and forth, 65 00:03:51,564 --> 00:03:56,236 Andrea could pour out her heart, her loneliness. 66 00:03:56,361 --> 00:04:01,532 In 1999, Andrea wrote that Luke has been born. 67 00:04:02,533 --> 00:04:05,745 And Rachel writes to Andrea, 68 00:04:05,870 --> 00:04:08,748 "I have seen many women just continually put off 69 00:04:08,831 --> 00:04:12,835 "their salvation in Jesus. Then, as the years slowly 70 00:04:12,919 --> 00:04:17,089 slip by, so does any hope for them to be truly saved." 71 00:04:20,260 --> 00:04:25,014 To read those letters was heartbreaking because it was 72 00:04:25,098 --> 00:04:28,434 just nothing but how you're doing wrong... 73 00:04:30,561 --> 00:04:34,565 and that there's... not any hope for you. 74 00:04:34,649 --> 00:04:37,110 [as Rachel] If you allow Satan to come in and still be understanding, 75 00:04:38,361 --> 00:04:40,280 the consequences will be tragic. 76 00:04:42,282 --> 00:04:43,950 When I read those letters, 77 00:04:44,075 --> 00:04:47,787 you kind of go, "It all makes sense now." 78 00:04:47,870 --> 00:04:49,664 Why Andrea did this. 79 00:04:49,789 --> 00:04:52,625 What was going on in her confused, 80 00:04:52,750 --> 00:04:54,502 mentally ill brain. 81 00:04:56,170 --> 00:05:00,300 Everything was pointing to this preacher named 82 00:05:00,383 --> 00:05:01,509 Michael Woroniecki. 83 00:05:06,014 --> 00:05:08,016 [reporter] According to the author of this new book, 84 00:05:08,141 --> 00:05:09,600 letters written to Andrea Yates 85 00:05:09,684 --> 00:05:11,602 by the Reverend Woroniecki and his wife 86 00:05:11,686 --> 00:05:15,356 may have convinced Yates she was possessed by the devil. 87 00:05:15,481 --> 00:05:18,568 [Suzy, archived] That is a way to -- you know, that God can use this, 88 00:05:18,651 --> 00:05:20,194 and everything -- a loneliness, 89 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:24,657 -depression, anything, -was all separation with God in 90 00:05:24,782 --> 00:05:26,034 alignment with Satan. 91 00:05:26,159 --> 00:05:27,452 Basically If you go to college... 92 00:05:27,535 --> 00:05:29,329 [David] I was watching the "Debbie Duncan" show, 93 00:05:29,412 --> 00:05:31,748 and there was this lady who wrote a book 94 00:05:31,831 --> 00:05:33,791 and she was talking about Michael 95 00:05:33,875 --> 00:05:35,793 being involved in the Yates family. 96 00:05:35,877 --> 00:05:37,170 How did they meet? 97 00:05:37,295 --> 00:05:40,256 Uh, when Rusty was a student in college. 98 00:05:40,340 --> 00:05:43,885 I learned that Rusty met Mike on campus just like I did. 99 00:05:44,010 --> 00:05:45,970 He started corresponding just like I did. 100 00:05:46,054 --> 00:05:48,181 Basically, anything and everything, 101 00:05:48,306 --> 00:05:51,100 from what I gather, but the Woronieckis, are sinful. 102 00:05:51,183 --> 00:05:52,393 -[woman] Women are evil... -Here's the thing. 103 00:05:52,518 --> 00:05:54,729 I knew, you know, what happened to me, 104 00:05:54,854 --> 00:05:57,023 you know, what he did to my life. 105 00:05:57,148 --> 00:06:01,652 But it just, when it hit me, like, "Oh, no, this Andrea Yates 106 00:06:01,736 --> 00:06:04,989 was so pressurized with that struggle for salvation 107 00:06:05,073 --> 00:06:08,451 that she had to kill her kids. 108 00:06:08,534 --> 00:06:10,870 And that's, what's like, "Oh, my god. 109 00:06:10,953 --> 00:06:12,455 How far can this go?" 110 00:06:14,165 --> 00:06:17,043 -Michael Woroniecki. -Fire and brimstone preacher. 111 00:06:17,168 --> 00:06:19,837 The preacher is mimicking Satan himself. 112 00:06:19,921 --> 00:06:22,507 [Moses] We watched the news coverage like a hawk. 113 00:06:22,590 --> 00:06:26,344 It was all through the frame of, "These people are going to try 114 00:06:26,427 --> 00:06:29,430 to bring Michael down." -It's going to hell! 115 00:06:29,555 --> 00:06:32,225 It's going to the Lake of Fire! 116 00:06:32,308 --> 00:06:35,686 [reporter] The man who's now under fire for what some claim is 117 00:06:35,770 --> 00:06:39,565 destructive preaching. -A bunch of fools! 118 00:06:39,649 --> 00:06:41,234 [Moses] Michael reached out to my mom initially. 119 00:06:41,317 --> 00:06:43,069 He was like, "Hey, how are you?" 120 00:06:43,152 --> 00:06:45,029 It was like...oddly nice. 121 00:06:45,113 --> 00:06:47,907 It became pretty clear that Michael was afraid 122 00:06:48,032 --> 00:06:50,118 that this would be pinned on him. 123 00:06:50,243 --> 00:06:53,246 They had many conversations about God, Satan, and Hell. 124 00:06:53,329 --> 00:06:55,748 Says, "Hey, they might bring me in to testify. 125 00:06:55,873 --> 00:06:57,792 "The defense is trying to make the case 126 00:06:57,917 --> 00:07:00,503 "that some of my teachings 127 00:07:00,586 --> 00:07:03,756 may have led Andrea to do this horrific crime." 128 00:07:03,840 --> 00:07:06,592 Michael Woroniecki's influence is dangerous. 129 00:07:06,676 --> 00:07:09,595 [Moses] And then he was the most positive he's ever been 130 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:11,472 towards my mom. 131 00:07:11,597 --> 00:07:13,850 He said, "God's told me that you're pretty close 132 00:07:13,933 --> 00:07:16,269 to getting into the kingdom of heaven." 133 00:07:16,394 --> 00:07:18,271 It was all damage control. 134 00:07:19,522 --> 00:07:20,523 He was scared. 135 00:07:22,358 --> 00:07:24,360 [reporter] The time has come for Andrea Yates, 136 00:07:24,444 --> 00:07:28,281 the so-called "killer mom," to defend her actions in court. 137 00:07:28,406 --> 00:07:31,075 [reporter #2] If convicted, she could be put to death. 138 00:07:31,159 --> 00:07:34,120 [reporter #3] Yates' attorney, Wendell Odom with Yates' health records. 139 00:07:34,203 --> 00:07:37,123 Those records detail a history of deep depression, 140 00:07:37,206 --> 00:07:39,250 attempted suicide, and psychosis. 141 00:07:41,461 --> 00:07:43,588 The Andrea Yates case was certainly 142 00:07:43,671 --> 00:07:46,841 the most significant case I ever tried in my life. 143 00:07:46,966 --> 00:07:50,470 When I saw Andrea Yates for the first time, 144 00:07:50,553 --> 00:07:53,764 it was one of the most shocking things I'd ever seen before. 145 00:07:53,848 --> 00:07:56,976 She had pupils that were giant and dark. 146 00:07:57,058 --> 00:07:58,603 She would jerk her head around 147 00:07:58,686 --> 00:08:00,980 and be looking at something behind her. 148 00:08:02,023 --> 00:08:05,985 I've never seen anyone that mentally ill before in my life. 149 00:08:06,110 --> 00:08:11,324 It was clear we need to start building an insanity defense. 150 00:08:11,449 --> 00:08:14,702 All rise -- [indistinct], district court now in session. 151 00:08:14,827 --> 00:08:16,078 The Honorable Belinda Hill... 152 00:08:16,162 --> 00:08:18,122 I thought the whole time... 153 00:08:18,206 --> 00:08:19,707 "How ridiculous is this?" 154 00:08:19,832 --> 00:08:23,503 Here's a loving mother who would never, ever, 155 00:08:23,586 --> 00:08:26,214 ever have harmed our children in any way, 156 00:08:26,339 --> 00:08:29,884 had she not been psychotic, 157 00:08:30,009 --> 00:08:32,845 and the state's prosecuting her for capital murder. 158 00:08:32,929 --> 00:08:34,679 The defendant has pleaded "not guilty" 159 00:08:34,804 --> 00:08:36,349 by reason of insanity. 160 00:08:36,474 --> 00:08:39,809 [Wendell] Our strategy was to explain to the jury that this was 161 00:08:39,894 --> 00:08:41,729 a psychotic episode created 162 00:08:41,854 --> 00:08:43,606 because of postpartum depression. 163 00:08:43,688 --> 00:08:45,399 If this woman doesn't meet 164 00:08:45,525 --> 00:08:48,361 the test of insanity in this state, 165 00:08:48,444 --> 00:08:50,321 then nobody does. 166 00:08:51,364 --> 00:08:52,615 Zero. 167 00:08:52,698 --> 00:08:54,158 [Wendell] We needed to explain that 168 00:08:54,242 --> 00:08:58,120 she knew that what she was doing was illegal, 169 00:08:58,204 --> 00:09:01,040 but she didn't know that it was wrong. 170 00:09:01,123 --> 00:09:04,377 She may have believed because of her mental depression 171 00:09:04,502 --> 00:09:07,338 that it was in the best interest of the children to drown them... 172 00:09:09,131 --> 00:09:10,174 one after the other, 173 00:09:10,258 --> 00:09:12,927 but that's not the law in Texas. 174 00:09:13,052 --> 00:09:15,179 I'm asking you to vote in accordance with the law 175 00:09:15,263 --> 00:09:19,725 and the evidence, and find her guilty as charged. 176 00:09:19,809 --> 00:09:22,186 And I appreciate your attention. 177 00:09:22,270 --> 00:09:24,897 [reporter] The defense and prosecution have both presented 178 00:09:25,022 --> 00:09:26,774 their arguments in the Yates case. 179 00:09:26,899 --> 00:09:30,236 After a month-long trial, the court rests. 180 00:09:31,445 --> 00:09:33,322 Jurors face the task of deciding 181 00:09:33,406 --> 00:09:36,409 whether this is a case of illness or intent. 182 00:09:36,492 --> 00:09:38,911 Andrea Yates' fate rests in their hands. 183 00:09:41,205 --> 00:09:42,582 All rise for the jury, please. 184 00:09:50,172 --> 00:09:53,175 We, the jury, find the defendant, Andrea Pia Yates, 185 00:09:53,259 --> 00:09:55,678 guilty of capital murder. 186 00:09:55,761 --> 00:09:57,722 [Wendell] After only 35 minutes of deliberations, 187 00:09:57,805 --> 00:10:01,017 jurors said, "Andrea Yates should get life in prison, 188 00:10:01,100 --> 00:10:02,643 not the death penalty." 189 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:05,605 [Rusty] Hearing the verdict, 190 00:10:05,730 --> 00:10:07,773 I didn't feel like I could get up. 191 00:10:10,067 --> 00:10:12,945 She's my wife, who I loved. 192 00:10:14,113 --> 00:10:16,115 I wouldn't wish that on anyone. 193 00:10:18,701 --> 00:10:22,163 [Wendell] During the trial, we didn't do as good a job as we should have 194 00:10:22,288 --> 00:10:25,166 explaining her mental state, 195 00:10:25,291 --> 00:10:27,251 including her faith-based beliefs, 196 00:10:27,335 --> 00:10:30,129 which were provided by Woroniecki. 197 00:10:31,797 --> 00:10:34,717 [David] After the trial, I was thinking that Michael Woroniecki 198 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:36,052 is not being held accountable. 199 00:10:38,220 --> 00:10:39,930 He got a little bad press, and all that, 200 00:10:40,014 --> 00:10:42,308 but he just marched on, 201 00:10:42,433 --> 00:10:45,436 and no one knows the real story. 202 00:10:45,519 --> 00:10:47,146 He's getting away with it. 203 00:10:48,397 --> 00:10:50,691 I started thinking, "What do I do?" 204 00:10:50,816 --> 00:10:57,365 I felt it was my social responsibility to inform 205 00:10:57,490 --> 00:11:00,368 who this man is. And maybe... 206 00:11:01,577 --> 00:11:03,621 that could help a lot of people. 207 00:11:03,704 --> 00:11:07,124 So I called a local news studio 208 00:11:07,208 --> 00:11:10,503 and told them that I have some information 209 00:11:10,628 --> 00:11:12,338 on this preacher. 210 00:11:12,463 --> 00:11:16,008 It's simple brainwashing. It starts off very innocent. 211 00:11:16,133 --> 00:11:19,303 Your perceptions start altering, and pretty soon 212 00:11:19,387 --> 00:11:21,013 you're sucked into a system. 213 00:11:21,097 --> 00:11:23,641 I knew that Mike would be pissed. 214 00:11:23,724 --> 00:11:26,769 I knew he would see me as a traitor, 215 00:11:26,852 --> 00:11:29,271 that he would see me as a Judas. 216 00:11:29,355 --> 00:11:30,690 I... 217 00:11:32,274 --> 00:11:35,986 didn't know how far he would take his displeasure with me. 218 00:11:40,783 --> 00:11:42,535 We all go to hell! Yeah! 219 00:11:42,618 --> 00:11:44,578 [reporter] Tonight, preacher Michael Woroniecki 220 00:11:44,662 --> 00:11:47,790 is responding to his critics and places the blame 221 00:11:47,873 --> 00:11:51,210 on Rusty Yates for his wife's actions. 222 00:11:51,293 --> 00:11:53,379 What about Rusty? I have never heard him once. 223 00:11:53,462 --> 00:11:56,382 I heard him blame the hospitals, the clinics, 224 00:11:56,465 --> 00:11:58,300 the postpartum depression, the drugs. 225 00:11:58,426 --> 00:12:00,302 Could you ever stand up and say, "I'm looking 226 00:12:00,428 --> 00:12:02,138 in the mirror and I'm seeing the guy who's responsible"? 227 00:12:02,263 --> 00:12:03,806 I should have shepherded my wife. 228 00:12:03,889 --> 00:12:05,683 -They visited you in Florida. -[Woroniecki] Right. 229 00:12:05,808 --> 00:12:09,562 And you told them, according to Andrea Yates, 230 00:12:09,645 --> 00:12:11,313 that they were going to hell. 231 00:12:11,439 --> 00:12:12,815 I was Andrea's friend. 232 00:12:12,940 --> 00:12:14,942 She had just had this experience with watching 233 00:12:15,025 --> 00:12:17,361 a caterpillar become a butterfly. 234 00:12:17,486 --> 00:12:19,405 And she left there with a tremendous hope 235 00:12:19,488 --> 00:12:21,365 that things were going to change in their life. 236 00:12:21,490 --> 00:12:22,783 [interviewer] She was a respected psychiatrist. 237 00:12:22,867 --> 00:12:23,951 She said, flat out 238 00:12:24,034 --> 00:12:26,036 that Andrea Yates never would have killed 239 00:12:26,162 --> 00:12:28,748 her children if it were not for you. 240 00:12:28,831 --> 00:12:30,166 That is ridiculous. 241 00:12:30,291 --> 00:12:31,959 So if you go out and kill somebody, that's my fault? 242 00:12:32,042 --> 00:12:33,836 if I know you, like this other guy that was on there? 243 00:12:33,961 --> 00:12:35,588 You're talking about David De La Isla. 244 00:12:35,671 --> 00:12:38,090 I knew that guy, what? 15 years ago. 245 00:12:38,174 --> 00:12:40,634 For 15 minutes, I've been at McDonald's restaurant. 246 00:12:40,718 --> 00:12:43,929 Just the fact that he's saying that he didn't really know me, 247 00:12:44,013 --> 00:12:45,347 just was like, "Wow." 248 00:12:45,473 --> 00:12:47,516 He said you communicated with him considerably. 249 00:12:47,641 --> 00:12:48,684 He has a stack of letters, he said. 250 00:12:48,768 --> 00:12:49,894 -Stack of letters? -From you... 251 00:12:50,019 --> 00:12:51,187 I don't think a stack of letters. 252 00:12:51,312 --> 00:12:53,022 ...that said that he was living a not righteous life. 253 00:12:53,147 --> 00:12:55,065 You're just a damn liar, you know? 254 00:12:55,191 --> 00:12:56,859 Like, here is the stack. 255 00:12:56,942 --> 00:13:00,279 This is a correspondence of about 12 years. 256 00:13:00,362 --> 00:13:03,866 And so he knows me very well. That was the lie -- 257 00:13:03,949 --> 00:13:06,952 it's like, "No, you know exactly who I am." 258 00:13:11,123 --> 00:13:14,877 When I found out that Mike had some sort of relationship 259 00:13:15,002 --> 00:13:18,297 with Andrea Yates, I was dumbfounded, numb. 260 00:13:21,050 --> 00:13:23,219 It was heartbreaking. 261 00:13:23,344 --> 00:13:26,472 And I thought, I hope they're wrong about Mike Woroniecki. 262 00:13:31,268 --> 00:13:34,021 Mike Woroniecki and I were born in Grand Rapids, Michigan, 263 00:13:34,104 --> 00:13:35,940 on February 4th, 1954, 264 00:13:36,065 --> 00:13:37,900 and we went through school together. 265 00:13:37,983 --> 00:13:40,319 Grand Rapids is also known as the City of Churches. 266 00:13:40,402 --> 00:13:42,154 Mike and I were both altar boys. 267 00:13:42,238 --> 00:13:44,031 His dad was an usher in our church. 268 00:13:45,074 --> 00:13:46,575 As a senior in high school, 269 00:13:46,659 --> 00:13:48,536 Mike was an excellent football player. 270 00:13:48,619 --> 00:13:51,372 He was the typical gung-ho jock, 271 00:13:51,455 --> 00:13:53,582 confident to the point of being cocky, 272 00:13:53,707 --> 00:13:55,417 liked being the center of attention. 273 00:13:55,543 --> 00:13:58,462 [Woroniecki speaking] 274 00:13:58,587 --> 00:14:01,006 [Steve] Mike goes to Central Michigan on scholarship, 275 00:14:01,090 --> 00:14:03,008 and he, if not for some bad luck, 276 00:14:03,092 --> 00:14:05,219 might have gone to the NFL. 277 00:14:05,302 --> 00:14:07,263 [Woroniecki speaking] 278 00:14:11,851 --> 00:14:13,519 He was all-in as a football player, 279 00:14:13,602 --> 00:14:17,064 he was all-in as an evangelical preacher. 280 00:14:17,147 --> 00:14:19,733 [Woroniecki speaking] 281 00:14:22,611 --> 00:14:25,698 [Steve] He tried to get into different seminaries, but he was rejected 282 00:14:25,781 --> 00:14:29,618 for being too fanatical, too earnest, too over the top. 283 00:14:29,743 --> 00:14:32,079 [Woroniecki speaking] 284 00:14:42,798 --> 00:14:44,550 And so he was gonna make his own way. 285 00:14:44,633 --> 00:14:47,970 And he did wear that rejection as a badge of honor. 286 00:14:51,181 --> 00:14:55,519 In the early 1980s, Mike's profile around town 287 00:14:55,644 --> 00:14:56,896 grew exponentially. 288 00:14:56,979 --> 00:14:58,939 [Woroniecki speaking] 289 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:07,573 God is gonna destroy this Earth and all you wretched sinners! 290 00:15:07,656 --> 00:15:10,784 [Steve] He would stand outside of churches on Sunday morning 291 00:15:10,868 --> 00:15:13,787 and tell the church-goers that they are going to hell. 292 00:15:13,871 --> 00:15:16,540 It was totally aggressive, and it was obnoxious. 293 00:15:17,791 --> 00:15:19,960 [Woroniecki speaking] 294 00:15:24,506 --> 00:15:26,508 [Steve] He was scorned. He was ridiculed. 295 00:15:26,592 --> 00:15:29,178 Probably everything he related to through 296 00:15:29,303 --> 00:15:30,888 what Jesus went through. 297 00:15:31,013 --> 00:15:33,349 [Woroniecki speaking] 298 00:15:36,185 --> 00:15:38,062 Around that time, I started working 299 00:15:38,187 --> 00:15:40,064 at the Grand Rapids Press as a police reporter. 300 00:15:40,189 --> 00:15:43,359 So, reporting on him journalistically was awkward, 301 00:15:43,484 --> 00:15:45,819 because we were still friends, 302 00:15:45,903 --> 00:15:49,365 and he's arrested various times. 303 00:15:49,490 --> 00:15:51,492 [Woroniecki speaking] 304 00:15:55,871 --> 00:15:57,790 There was an event that was the straw 305 00:15:57,873 --> 00:15:59,750 that broke the camel's back. 306 00:16:05,047 --> 00:16:09,551 The Shrine Circus was an annual institution in Grand Rapids. 307 00:16:09,635 --> 00:16:13,138 Mike was doing his preaching outside the ticket office, 308 00:16:13,222 --> 00:16:16,684 and accosted a woman verbally about her religion, 309 00:16:16,767 --> 00:16:19,436 about her faith. I interviewed her subsequently. 310 00:16:19,561 --> 00:16:21,188 He roughed her up pretty good, according to her. 311 00:16:28,445 --> 00:16:30,739 She was so upset, she wanted him to go to trial, 312 00:16:30,823 --> 00:16:33,909 see him pay for what he had done to her. 313 00:16:34,034 --> 00:16:35,953 But the city cut a deal with him 314 00:16:36,078 --> 00:16:37,579 that he would leave town, 315 00:16:37,705 --> 00:16:42,084 and that was the start of his worldwide tour. 316 00:16:46,922 --> 00:16:50,843 I don't recall hearing from him for quite a while until Mike 317 00:16:50,926 --> 00:16:53,929 became a prominent figure in the Andrea Yates story. 318 00:16:55,514 --> 00:16:56,890 [phone ringing] 319 00:16:56,974 --> 00:16:59,101 I get a call, and it's Mike. 320 00:16:59,184 --> 00:17:01,770 He was unhappy with the story in the Grand Rapids Press. 321 00:17:01,854 --> 00:17:03,939 He thought the story was slanted against him. 322 00:17:04,064 --> 00:17:06,692 He said, "Come on, Steve, you know me. 323 00:17:06,775 --> 00:17:08,109 We go way back." 324 00:17:08,193 --> 00:17:10,319 It was the only time he ever asked me for anything. 325 00:17:10,445 --> 00:17:13,531 And he said, "I would like you to publish my objections 326 00:17:13,615 --> 00:17:15,242 to that press coverage." 327 00:17:15,325 --> 00:17:17,036 And so, we do our interview. 328 00:17:20,329 --> 00:17:22,750 Mike denied any culpability. 329 00:17:22,833 --> 00:17:25,127 His defense was, "We love those kids. 330 00:17:26,377 --> 00:17:28,005 "We would never 331 00:17:28,130 --> 00:17:30,632 suggest that a mother should kill her children." 332 00:17:33,510 --> 00:17:35,262 And he said they needed Jesus. 333 00:17:36,638 --> 00:17:40,893 If the Yateses would have just listened to him and followed 334 00:17:40,976 --> 00:17:43,312 how they should live their lives according 335 00:17:43,437 --> 00:17:46,106 to his beliefs, this wouldn't have happened. 336 00:17:50,778 --> 00:17:53,572 Over the years, I had done some research, 337 00:17:53,655 --> 00:17:55,949 and the word "cult" occurred to me. 338 00:17:56,033 --> 00:17:58,535 your failure, your wickedness to a holy God! 339 00:17:58,660 --> 00:18:02,790 [Steve] Because of his charisma, his performance skills, 340 00:18:02,873 --> 00:18:04,500 and all those things... 341 00:18:05,834 --> 00:18:07,836 he could be a cult leader. 342 00:18:11,715 --> 00:18:13,717 [David] I started thinking, how many victims are out there? 343 00:18:13,842 --> 00:18:15,761 How many people are still under his spell? 344 00:18:17,513 --> 00:18:20,557 And then I came across the first survivors website. 345 00:18:20,641 --> 00:18:22,893 And I thought, "Wow, there's a lot more victims." 346 00:18:27,231 --> 00:18:28,899 I first met Michael Woroniecki 347 00:18:28,982 --> 00:18:31,860 on campus at Michigan State University. 348 00:18:31,944 --> 00:18:36,240 For about a year and a half, I was very intensely enmeshed 349 00:18:36,323 --> 00:18:37,991 with the Woroniecki cult. 350 00:18:38,075 --> 00:18:39,952 I fell for what he was preaching, 351 00:18:40,077 --> 00:18:42,121 hook, line, and sinker. 352 00:18:42,246 --> 00:18:45,916 But then I realized, "No, the message is wrong. 353 00:18:45,999 --> 00:18:47,751 The fruit is bad." 354 00:18:47,835 --> 00:18:50,337 And Andrea Yates drowning her children is like 355 00:18:50,420 --> 00:18:51,880 the most symbolic fruit 356 00:18:51,964 --> 00:18:54,424 of his ministry you will ever get. 357 00:18:55,634 --> 00:18:57,970 And so I started the website, "Michael Woroniecki, 358 00:18:58,095 --> 00:18:59,763 the Ultimate False Prophet." 359 00:18:59,888 --> 00:19:01,098 I put that site out there 360 00:19:01,223 --> 00:19:03,600 in hopes of rescuing other people 361 00:19:03,725 --> 00:19:06,103 involved with the cult. 362 00:19:06,186 --> 00:19:08,939 I had thousands of views. 363 00:19:09,064 --> 00:19:13,110 I got contacted by as many as 40 people. 364 00:19:14,236 --> 00:19:16,613 And so, that's how I met David. 365 00:19:17,906 --> 00:19:19,825 Reading similar stories from other survivors 366 00:19:19,950 --> 00:19:23,287 and what they went through, it made me realize 367 00:19:23,370 --> 00:19:25,497 that we were manipulated, 368 00:19:25,622 --> 00:19:29,126 that we were deceived systematically, 369 00:19:29,251 --> 00:19:31,712 that there was nothing flawed with me. 370 00:19:31,795 --> 00:19:34,631 It was him who was the flawed one. 371 00:19:36,258 --> 00:19:39,344 [Douglas] I believe that Michael Woroniecki should stand 372 00:19:39,469 --> 00:19:40,971 accountable for it, and I believe he will 373 00:19:41,054 --> 00:19:42,306 on the day of judgment. 374 00:19:47,644 --> 00:19:50,355 I think I think it's a really good question to ask whether 375 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:54,318 Michael Woroniecki is a cult leader, 376 00:19:54,401 --> 00:19:58,572 or if this particular belief system is a cult. 377 00:19:59,823 --> 00:20:01,241 People oftentimes assume 378 00:20:01,325 --> 00:20:03,744 that when you talk about the word "cult," 379 00:20:03,827 --> 00:20:05,621 that means that there's a compound, 380 00:20:05,704 --> 00:20:08,582 but that's not necessarily true 381 00:20:08,665 --> 00:20:10,751 based off of all of our definitions 382 00:20:10,834 --> 00:20:14,004 on how to define a destructive cult. 383 00:20:14,129 --> 00:20:17,174 It's a dedication to a particular person, 384 00:20:17,257 --> 00:20:19,635 idea, or thing. 385 00:20:19,718 --> 00:20:25,140 Michael is ultimately someone who does not want people 386 00:20:25,224 --> 00:20:28,143 to think independently. 387 00:20:28,227 --> 00:20:32,564 There is a clear pattern of indoctrination. 388 00:20:32,689 --> 00:20:35,901 He's sending people personalized messages, 389 00:20:36,026 --> 00:20:38,445 either audio or pamphlets. 390 00:20:38,528 --> 00:20:41,865 Something that Michael does is, he really taps in 391 00:20:41,990 --> 00:20:43,784 and utilizes and manipulates. 392 00:20:43,867 --> 00:20:48,247 He creates this state of heightened emotionality 393 00:20:48,372 --> 00:20:50,207 in his messages for people. 394 00:20:51,541 --> 00:20:56,713 The effects of psychological manipulation and the effects 395 00:20:56,838 --> 00:21:01,009 of this type of ideological religious control can leave 396 00:21:01,093 --> 00:21:05,222 someone feeling trapped in a psychological prison. 397 00:21:05,305 --> 00:21:09,268 The impacts of that can be extremely devastating. 398 00:21:17,651 --> 00:21:19,236 [reporter] An appeals court in Texas 399 00:21:19,361 --> 00:21:21,405 has overturned the murder convictions 400 00:21:21,488 --> 00:21:24,408 of Andrea Yates because of false testimony 401 00:21:24,533 --> 00:21:26,159 by an expert witness. 402 00:21:26,243 --> 00:21:28,412 [reporter #2] A state expert claimed Andrea Yates 403 00:21:28,537 --> 00:21:30,163 watched "Law and Order," 404 00:21:30,247 --> 00:21:31,540 and may have copied a plot 405 00:21:31,623 --> 00:21:34,084 where a mother used postpartum depression 406 00:21:34,167 --> 00:21:36,753 as a defense for drowning her children. 407 00:21:36,878 --> 00:21:38,714 However, it was later proven 408 00:21:38,797 --> 00:21:42,843 that no such episode ever existed. 409 00:21:42,926 --> 00:21:46,346 [reporter #3] The ruling means Yates is entitled to a new trial. 410 00:21:47,723 --> 00:21:51,101 [Todd] In June of 2006, I was requested to participate 411 00:21:51,184 --> 00:21:53,687 in a jury for the State of Texas 412 00:21:53,770 --> 00:21:56,606 versus Andrea Pia Yates, and I gasped. 413 00:21:56,732 --> 00:21:59,776 It shocked me, and it scared me. 414 00:21:59,860 --> 00:22:01,611 Everybody in Houston knew about this case, 415 00:22:01,695 --> 00:22:05,949 and everybody had an opinion that I heard many, many times. 416 00:22:06,074 --> 00:22:09,202 "Of course, she was crazy. She killed her children." 417 00:22:09,286 --> 00:22:12,456 [reporter] With Andrea Yates set to stand trial once again, 418 00:22:12,539 --> 00:22:15,500 will the court affirm her guilt, or will a new verdict 419 00:22:15,625 --> 00:22:18,045 reshape the legal and moral reckoning of one 420 00:22:18,128 --> 00:22:21,631 of the most harrowing cases in recent history? 421 00:22:21,757 --> 00:22:24,718 The first day of trial, and really every subsequent day, 422 00:22:24,801 --> 00:22:27,554 Andrea Yates would come into the courtroom quiet, 423 00:22:27,637 --> 00:22:29,222 and shy and reserved. 424 00:22:29,306 --> 00:22:31,516 [woman] The evidence will show you that she had been 425 00:22:31,641 --> 00:22:33,435 contemplating the death 426 00:22:33,518 --> 00:22:35,312 and the killing of these children 427 00:22:35,437 --> 00:22:37,856 for approximately two years. 428 00:22:37,981 --> 00:22:39,816 -That she knew it was wrong, 429 00:22:39,941 --> 00:22:41,818 and that she knew she would be punished. 430 00:22:41,902 --> 00:22:43,362 And that's what she told the police 431 00:22:43,487 --> 00:22:47,324 on June 20th, of 2001. 432 00:22:47,407 --> 00:22:49,701 There was a vast difference between the first trial 433 00:22:49,826 --> 00:22:51,078 and the second trial. 434 00:22:51,161 --> 00:22:52,746 This was a mental illness and a delusion 435 00:22:52,829 --> 00:22:54,122 that she was acting. 436 00:22:54,206 --> 00:22:57,334 We thought we needed to do a better job of explaining 437 00:22:57,417 --> 00:22:59,419 what was going on in her head at the time. 438 00:22:59,503 --> 00:23:01,588 In 2001, her illness had gotten so great... 439 00:23:03,382 --> 00:23:05,550 that their lives were gone. 440 00:23:05,675 --> 00:23:08,053 She wasn't worried about saving their lives anymore. 441 00:23:08,178 --> 00:23:10,889 She was worried about saving their souls. 442 00:23:11,014 --> 00:23:13,016 Explain how the delusion got formed. 443 00:23:13,141 --> 00:23:14,976 [Woroniecki speaking] 444 00:23:22,859 --> 00:23:24,027 [Wendell] And where she got the delusion 445 00:23:24,111 --> 00:23:26,863 was from this faith-based relief 446 00:23:26,947 --> 00:23:30,033 that Michael Woroniecki was espousing. 447 00:23:31,368 --> 00:23:33,120 I first heard the name Michael Woroniecki 448 00:23:33,203 --> 00:23:34,746 on the second week of the trial, 449 00:23:34,871 --> 00:23:38,166 when the Woroniecki pamphlet, "The Perilous Times," 450 00:23:38,250 --> 00:23:40,001 was entered into evidence. 451 00:23:40,085 --> 00:23:43,004 At this point, I was starting to realize that Yates' 452 00:23:43,088 --> 00:23:45,549 religious beliefs were not necessarily mainstream. 453 00:23:47,426 --> 00:23:49,594 This actually was something that was brought up 454 00:23:49,719 --> 00:23:53,098 in the courtroom to give us some context as to the religious 455 00:23:53,223 --> 00:23:54,516 beliefs of Andrea Yates. 456 00:23:54,599 --> 00:23:57,352 "Modern Mother Worldly was very, very lazy. 457 00:23:57,436 --> 00:23:59,771 "All of her children drove her crazy. 458 00:23:59,896 --> 00:24:02,232 "Now the Bible told her to spank and train them. 459 00:24:02,315 --> 00:24:04,943 So, if the Bible's telling modern mother worldly 460 00:24:05,068 --> 00:24:07,821 "to discipline her children, but because she's not, 461 00:24:07,904 --> 00:24:10,323 "on the Day of Judgment, she will have no plea. 462 00:24:10,407 --> 00:24:12,951 "Modern Mother Worldly gets cast in Hell. 463 00:24:13,076 --> 00:24:14,578 "Now, what becomes of the children 464 00:24:14,703 --> 00:24:16,538 of such a jezebel?" 465 00:24:16,621 --> 00:24:19,374 Because the delusion is still that she's a bad mother, 466 00:24:19,458 --> 00:24:22,002 that the children are flawed, that they're going to hell 467 00:24:22,085 --> 00:24:23,753 unless she sends them to heaven. 468 00:24:23,879 --> 00:24:26,214 This really started to paint a picture for us 469 00:24:26,298 --> 00:24:28,550 as to the mind of Andrea Yates. 470 00:24:28,633 --> 00:24:32,262 So I knew that there was something about this Woroniecki 471 00:24:32,387 --> 00:24:34,389 that needed to be paid attention to. 472 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:38,977 Dr. Resnick, who interviewed Andrea Yates 473 00:24:39,102 --> 00:24:40,479 shortly after her arrest, 474 00:24:40,604 --> 00:24:42,439 will take the stand today. 475 00:24:54,159 --> 00:24:58,705 Mrs. Yates had a number of paranoid ideas. 476 00:25:00,123 --> 00:25:03,460 She claims that she and the children 477 00:25:03,585 --> 00:25:05,754 would watch cartoons -- 478 00:25:05,837 --> 00:25:09,132 the characters would speak directly to her, 479 00:25:09,257 --> 00:25:11,092 telling her she was a bad mother. 480 00:25:13,512 --> 00:25:17,682 Mrs. Yates believed that she was marked as evil. 481 00:25:17,807 --> 00:25:19,017 She believed she had 482 00:25:19,142 --> 00:25:23,104 "666" tattooed on her head. 483 00:25:25,315 --> 00:25:29,986 And she believed that Satan was literally within her 484 00:25:30,111 --> 00:25:33,406 and surrounding her and influencing her 485 00:25:33,490 --> 00:25:37,744 during her psychotic period before the killing. 486 00:25:37,827 --> 00:25:42,290 Michael Woroniecki lectured about Satan being 487 00:25:42,374 --> 00:25:44,793 a very powerful force. 488 00:25:47,796 --> 00:25:50,465 [Woroniecki speaking] 489 00:25:51,967 --> 00:25:57,138 Michael Woroniecki is emphasizing how real Satan is 490 00:25:57,222 --> 00:26:02,686 and how these demons and Satan will take over your mind. 491 00:26:02,769 --> 00:26:05,230 [Woroniecki speaking] 492 00:26:06,690 --> 00:26:09,192 So she clearly was strongly influenced 493 00:26:09,276 --> 00:26:10,860 by Michael Woroniecki. 494 00:26:10,944 --> 00:26:13,280 [Woroniecki speaking] 495 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:17,576 [Todd] His testimony was one of the most powerful, 496 00:26:17,701 --> 00:26:19,953 I've never forgotten what Dr. Resnick stated. 497 00:26:20,036 --> 00:26:24,833 "Andrea Yates' religion was the trellis upon which the ivy 498 00:26:24,916 --> 00:26:26,459 of her mental illness grew." 499 00:26:27,752 --> 00:26:29,212 Everything in her psychosis tied back 500 00:26:29,337 --> 00:26:30,839 to her religious beliefs. 501 00:26:34,509 --> 00:26:37,053 After the last day of testimony and closing arguments, 502 00:26:37,137 --> 00:26:39,055 we went into the jury room. 503 00:26:39,139 --> 00:26:41,433 We had eight jurors that believed she was not guilty 504 00:26:41,558 --> 00:26:43,268 by reason of insanity, and four that claimed 505 00:26:43,393 --> 00:26:44,561 she was guilty. 506 00:26:44,686 --> 00:26:46,062 We were arguing, kind of back and forth, 507 00:26:46,146 --> 00:26:48,690 about what she believed and what she didn't believe. 508 00:26:48,773 --> 00:26:52,569 One of the most challenging aspects of this trial was 509 00:26:52,652 --> 00:26:55,572 trying to get into the mind of Andrea Yates. 510 00:26:55,655 --> 00:26:58,199 In order to ascertain whether or not she knew what she was 511 00:26:58,283 --> 00:26:59,409 doing was wrong, 512 00:26:59,492 --> 00:27:01,494 we did request a number of items, 513 00:27:01,578 --> 00:27:04,080 including the pictures of the kids and a copy 514 00:27:04,164 --> 00:27:05,457 of "The Perilous Times," 515 00:27:05,582 --> 00:27:07,959 which was the newsletter that we knew was 516 00:27:08,084 --> 00:27:10,879 in the Yateses' home when the children were killed. 517 00:27:11,963 --> 00:27:15,467 So we had been told that this picture, 518 00:27:15,592 --> 00:27:17,093 this image that was brought into evidence, 519 00:27:17,218 --> 00:27:18,845 was from "The Perilous Times," 520 00:27:18,928 --> 00:27:21,389 but that's all that we saw, right? 521 00:27:21,473 --> 00:27:23,808 And in this limerick that was discussed, 522 00:27:23,933 --> 00:27:26,603 was really the essence of everything, 523 00:27:26,728 --> 00:27:28,229 but it wasn't -- 524 00:27:28,313 --> 00:27:30,106 it was a lot more, 525 00:27:30,190 --> 00:27:32,150 and so this copy of "The Perilous Times" 526 00:27:32,275 --> 00:27:34,277 was brought into the deliberation room. 527 00:27:36,613 --> 00:27:39,532 "The eternity of my children is my accountability 528 00:27:39,616 --> 00:27:40,867 "while they are children, 529 00:27:40,950 --> 00:27:42,911 "and I would be sending them to hell 530 00:27:42,994 --> 00:27:45,121 "if I raised them to think according to the standards 531 00:27:45,246 --> 00:27:46,331 "of this world. 532 00:27:46,456 --> 00:27:48,541 "By the time a child is the age of accountability, 533 00:27:48,625 --> 00:27:49,876 "it's too late. 534 00:27:49,959 --> 00:27:51,378 "By this time, the thinking of the world 535 00:27:51,461 --> 00:27:54,339 "that you have taught them takes over. 536 00:27:54,464 --> 00:27:56,508 God is going to hold you accountable." 537 00:27:59,469 --> 00:28:02,764 [Moses] "The Perilous Times" is the most relevant media 538 00:28:02,847 --> 00:28:04,224 to me in my life. 539 00:28:04,307 --> 00:28:07,060 The highest stakes thing for you is, if you are a parent, 540 00:28:07,143 --> 00:28:10,814 your responsibility is your kid's salvation. 541 00:28:10,939 --> 00:28:14,484 There's a lot of pressure on parents to make their kids 542 00:28:14,609 --> 00:28:16,778 obey, fall in line, 543 00:28:16,861 --> 00:28:20,615 and the price to pay if you didn't do that, 544 00:28:20,699 --> 00:28:23,243 you cause one of your kids 545 00:28:23,326 --> 00:28:24,619 to go to hell. 546 00:28:44,973 --> 00:28:48,143 [Moses] According to Michael's teachings, 547 00:28:48,268 --> 00:28:50,645 a child becomes no longer a child. 548 00:28:50,729 --> 00:28:52,188 They become no longer innocent. 549 00:28:53,398 --> 00:28:55,984 If they're not saved before the age of 12, 550 00:28:56,109 --> 00:28:59,612 which is the age of accountability, 551 00:28:59,696 --> 00:29:01,156 you're going to hell. 552 00:29:12,333 --> 00:29:14,627 [sniffling] I 100% believe all of this. 553 00:29:15,795 --> 00:29:16,880 All of this. 554 00:29:17,005 --> 00:29:21,134 I would be up, worried I was going to hell. 555 00:29:21,217 --> 00:29:22,469 [woman] How old are you, Moses? 556 00:29:22,552 --> 00:29:24,846 [Moses] My mom would often express to us 557 00:29:24,929 --> 00:29:26,431 that if she found a way 558 00:29:26,514 --> 00:29:29,642 that we all died, that would be a blessing 559 00:29:29,726 --> 00:29:31,853 'cause if you die, I mean, you're going to heaven. 560 00:29:31,978 --> 00:29:34,439 You're going to paradise. 561 00:29:46,201 --> 00:29:48,953 [Moses] And so when I found out that they died, 562 00:29:49,037 --> 00:29:51,706 it wasn't shock at all. 563 00:29:51,831 --> 00:29:54,417 It was, "Ah, damn it, they did it. 564 00:29:54,542 --> 00:29:56,002 They did it before us." 565 00:29:56,085 --> 00:29:59,923 And what does this mean for me and my place in heaven? 566 00:30:16,189 --> 00:30:17,649 That's why she did it. 567 00:30:18,858 --> 00:30:20,944 She was saving her kids. 568 00:30:28,660 --> 00:30:31,079 I don't want to admit this stuff out loud. 569 00:30:32,121 --> 00:30:33,832 I don't... 570 00:30:33,915 --> 00:30:35,250 [emotional sigh] 571 00:30:38,002 --> 00:30:39,003 You know... 572 00:30:52,892 --> 00:30:55,562 [Woroniecki] Jesus does single out one group... 573 00:30:56,729 --> 00:30:58,606 children. He says... 574 00:30:58,690 --> 00:31:01,109 It's better to tie... 575 00:31:01,234 --> 00:31:02,944 ...a heavy millstone. -...around your neck. 576 00:31:03,027 --> 00:31:04,529 And ye be drowned in the depth of... 577 00:31:04,612 --> 00:31:05,613 ...the sea than to... 578 00:31:05,697 --> 00:31:07,615 ...cause one of these little ones... 579 00:31:08,658 --> 00:31:09,993 who believe in me to stumble. -...stumble. 580 00:31:16,791 --> 00:31:19,586 [Todd] In reading "The Perilous Times," I was shocked. 581 00:31:19,669 --> 00:31:21,963 And I sat there shocked, and I told the jury, 582 00:31:22,088 --> 00:31:24,340 "Hey, everything in her delusion 583 00:31:24,465 --> 00:31:26,968 is in this newsletter." 584 00:31:27,093 --> 00:31:29,429 She believed she was an unrighteous mother, 585 00:31:29,512 --> 00:31:32,557 and this unrighteous mother had produced unrighteous children. 586 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,560 And those unrighteous children were going to burn in hell 587 00:31:35,643 --> 00:31:39,022 unless they died before the age of accountability. 588 00:31:39,147 --> 00:31:41,649 That was everything that we needed to hear to basically 589 00:31:41,774 --> 00:31:44,444 understand why she did what she did. 590 00:31:49,866 --> 00:31:52,368 But there was one holdout juror 591 00:31:52,493 --> 00:31:55,872 who said we just can't forget the children. 592 00:31:55,997 --> 00:32:00,251 It was an incredibly emotional moment for everyone. 593 00:32:00,335 --> 00:32:01,628 So, on the last day of deliberations, 594 00:32:01,711 --> 00:32:06,591 we did have a moment of silence for each of the children, 595 00:32:06,674 --> 00:32:10,178 two minutes per child, where we reflected and prayed 596 00:32:10,261 --> 00:32:12,096 and thought about what the magnitude 597 00:32:12,180 --> 00:32:13,264 of what we were doing. 598 00:32:17,769 --> 00:32:19,228 And afterwards, I got up 599 00:32:19,354 --> 00:32:20,939 and wrote something on the board. 600 00:32:22,565 --> 00:32:24,359 "It is a it is our job, 601 00:32:24,484 --> 00:32:27,403 "our duty, to judge Andrea Pia Yates 602 00:32:27,528 --> 00:32:29,697 "based on the facts presented into evidence 603 00:32:29,781 --> 00:32:32,533 and the law given to us by the court." 604 00:32:35,745 --> 00:32:38,373 "Let God judge her after that." 605 00:32:38,498 --> 00:32:41,876 And after that, the last holdout said, "I want to vote." 606 00:32:48,174 --> 00:32:50,093 [judge] Mr. Foreman, has the jury reached a verdict? 607 00:32:50,218 --> 00:32:51,219 Yes, Your Honor. 608 00:32:51,302 --> 00:32:52,887 Will you please pass them to the bailiff, please? 609 00:33:00,061 --> 00:33:02,689 We, the jury, find the defendant, Andrea Pia Yates, 610 00:33:02,772 --> 00:33:06,067 not guilty by reason of insanity. 611 00:33:06,192 --> 00:33:09,737 Signed, Todd Christopher Frank, foreman of the jury. 612 00:33:13,408 --> 00:33:15,743 [Rusty] I thought, wow, the result of not guilty for reason 613 00:33:15,868 --> 00:33:17,912 of insanity was quite a relief. 614 00:33:18,037 --> 00:33:19,872 I was super, super grateful. 615 00:33:19,956 --> 00:33:21,791 In many respects, she's a victim in all this 616 00:33:21,916 --> 00:33:23,251 because she became ill -- 617 00:33:23,376 --> 00:33:25,712 we were unable to get adequate treatment for her. 618 00:33:25,795 --> 00:33:28,423 She did this horrible, you know, thing that just 619 00:33:28,548 --> 00:33:29,674 devastated all of us. 620 00:33:29,757 --> 00:33:31,467 But, you know, I can't lose sight of the fact 621 00:33:31,592 --> 00:33:33,219 that this wasn't her. 622 00:33:34,929 --> 00:33:38,266 [David] Rusty came across the survivor's website. 623 00:33:38,349 --> 00:33:42,270 This is an email that I got from Rusty saying that he found 624 00:33:42,395 --> 00:33:45,189 one of Michael Woroniecki's tapes in the tape player 625 00:33:45,273 --> 00:33:46,941 at the time of the tragedy. 626 00:33:49,569 --> 00:33:51,863 It was called, "What is Truth?" 627 00:33:51,946 --> 00:33:54,741 It's a tape I've listened to before many times, 628 00:33:54,824 --> 00:33:57,493 Andrea Yates was listening to Mike 629 00:33:57,618 --> 00:34:00,038 all the way up until that tragic day. 630 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:02,457 [Woroniecki speaking] 631 00:34:12,675 --> 00:34:14,677 [David] But then Rusty would say things like, 632 00:34:14,802 --> 00:34:16,721 "Mike had influence, but it was, you know, 633 00:34:16,804 --> 00:34:19,639 Andrea was psychotic because of her depression." 634 00:34:19,724 --> 00:34:24,228 I think that he wasn't aware that other people went through 635 00:34:24,312 --> 00:34:25,730 some abuse from Michael. 636 00:34:26,773 --> 00:34:28,775 [Rusty] Everyone responds a little differently, you know? 637 00:34:28,858 --> 00:34:33,154 I've tried myself to think, "Well, how would life be 638 00:34:33,279 --> 00:34:34,906 different if I'd never met him?" 639 00:34:34,989 --> 00:34:37,033 Even outside of the tragedy, even just for me, 640 00:34:37,158 --> 00:34:39,619 "How would my views have changed or be different?" 641 00:34:39,702 --> 00:34:41,204 And I don't know. 642 00:34:42,371 --> 00:34:43,664 [David] I was stunned. 643 00:34:43,748 --> 00:34:45,708 I was in this cult for 12 years. 644 00:34:45,833 --> 00:34:47,668 I was like, "Rusty, what are you talking about? 645 00:34:47,752 --> 00:34:50,545 It's horrible. He ruins people's lives." 646 00:35:00,515 --> 00:35:03,392 [Rusty] This is a news story about Andrea. 647 00:35:03,518 --> 00:35:07,522 Couple has ties to an out-of-state religious group. 648 00:35:07,647 --> 00:35:10,024 Andrea's brother says, 649 00:35:10,108 --> 00:35:11,859 "To me, it was, kind of, a cult religion. 650 00:35:11,984 --> 00:35:15,530 "They made statements like, 'Catholics were going to hell.'" 651 00:35:15,613 --> 00:35:17,907 We're back with Karen Kennedy and Brian Kennedy, 652 00:35:18,032 --> 00:35:20,535 the mother and brother of Andrea Yates. 653 00:35:20,660 --> 00:35:25,206 What happened to that girl? -[Karen] Woroniecki --Satan. 654 00:35:25,289 --> 00:35:26,332 [Brian] The preacher. 655 00:35:26,415 --> 00:35:28,167 Andrea was introduced to him through Russell. 656 00:35:28,251 --> 00:35:30,294 You paint him as part of the villain of the piece? 657 00:35:30,378 --> 00:35:32,505 Oh, absolutely. He's always talking about the devil. 658 00:35:32,588 --> 00:35:35,049 Everybody's going to hell. Everybody's a sinner. 659 00:35:35,174 --> 00:35:36,676 And he preached to Andrea? 660 00:35:36,759 --> 00:35:38,136 Yeah, but I mean, see, he's got some type 661 00:35:38,219 --> 00:35:39,220 of a cult following. 662 00:35:42,557 --> 00:35:44,684 [producer] What do you think about it being referred to as a cult? 663 00:35:44,767 --> 00:35:46,394 Well, it could be seen that way. 664 00:35:48,062 --> 00:35:49,730 But I mean... 665 00:35:49,856 --> 00:35:50,898 I don't think it is. 666 00:35:54,443 --> 00:35:56,362 It's a fine line, I'll admit that. 667 00:35:59,949 --> 00:36:00,950 Hm. 668 00:36:02,869 --> 00:36:03,911 Interesting. 669 00:36:07,623 --> 00:36:09,292 [Andrea speaking] 670 00:36:24,974 --> 00:36:26,517 [camerawoman] Rusty and Moses, take one. 671 00:36:29,562 --> 00:36:32,023 [Rusty] I asked to talk to you 672 00:36:32,106 --> 00:36:34,734 because there's a lot of things I just wanted to ask you 673 00:36:34,817 --> 00:36:36,527 and get your advice on. 674 00:36:36,611 --> 00:36:37,778 Your story and your family 675 00:36:37,904 --> 00:36:40,489 has been such a significant part of my life. 676 00:36:40,615 --> 00:36:44,118 This religion, this ideology, had absolutely fractured 677 00:36:44,243 --> 00:36:48,039 our family and continues to affect us today. 678 00:36:48,122 --> 00:36:51,042 Even though we have never had to face the pain 679 00:36:51,125 --> 00:36:55,338 that you -- your family had to face. 680 00:36:55,463 --> 00:36:58,216 This whole thing is like, it's the six of us, 681 00:36:58,299 --> 00:37:00,551 and everybody else is going to hell basically. 682 00:37:00,635 --> 00:37:03,221 -[Moses] Yes, you will be saved like in the days of Noah. -Yeah, yeah. 683 00:37:03,304 --> 00:37:06,224 Uh, you become a -- you're a caterpillar, 684 00:37:06,307 --> 00:37:08,142 you go into a cocoon, and then eventually 685 00:37:08,226 --> 00:37:09,977 become a butterfly, and then you're saved, 686 00:37:10,102 --> 00:37:11,270 that's what was told to us. -Yeah. 687 00:37:11,354 --> 00:37:12,772 So it was like, how do you get 688 00:37:12,855 --> 00:37:15,399 into Michael's favor? -Oh, yeah, that starts bordering 689 00:37:15,483 --> 00:37:16,651 on manipulation, right? 690 00:37:16,734 --> 00:37:18,319 I mean, if there's a carrot and there's a bar, 691 00:37:18,444 --> 00:37:19,487 and the bar keeps going up... -Yeah. 692 00:37:19,612 --> 00:37:21,447 ...you never get there, so don't -- 693 00:37:21,530 --> 00:37:24,242 so for me, I thought, "OK, well, he's not God, 694 00:37:24,325 --> 00:37:26,035 so I'm not gonna worry 695 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,163 too much about his heaven and hell speech." 696 00:37:29,247 --> 00:37:31,165 How did you hear the same teachings 697 00:37:31,290 --> 00:37:34,835 that my parents heard, and you took that from it? 698 00:37:34,919 --> 00:37:36,754 I think it's a mistake I made with Andrea, 699 00:37:36,837 --> 00:37:39,423 is that, you know, I was raised in a tradition 700 00:37:39,507 --> 00:37:41,676 of, you know, grace and forgiveness, 701 00:37:41,759 --> 00:37:44,262 not a tradition of hellfire... -[Rusty] Heaven and hell. 702 00:37:44,345 --> 00:37:45,680 ...and brimstone, right? -Black and white. 703 00:37:45,805 --> 00:37:48,849 So when she heard this heaven and hell stuff, you know, 704 00:37:48,933 --> 00:37:50,977 did it make her more concerned than she otherwise would have 705 00:37:51,060 --> 00:37:52,561 been about her standing before God? 706 00:37:52,687 --> 00:37:54,313 I think, of course, how could it not? 707 00:37:54,397 --> 00:37:55,898 Your situation is probably more similar 708 00:37:56,023 --> 00:37:57,775 to Andrea's than it is to mine. 709 00:37:58,943 --> 00:38:02,113 [Moses] This helps me to just try to understand my own parents more. 710 00:38:02,196 --> 00:38:03,614 And I love my parents. 711 00:38:03,698 --> 00:38:06,284 I want to have a relationship with them. 712 00:38:06,367 --> 00:38:07,451 You know, I see them. 713 00:38:07,535 --> 00:38:09,704 I understand how they were taken advantage of. 714 00:38:11,914 --> 00:38:13,332 Can I tell you something? 715 00:38:13,416 --> 00:38:17,420 I 100% believed what the Woronieckis would say 716 00:38:17,545 --> 00:38:21,590 and my parents' definition of God until I was 16. 717 00:38:21,716 --> 00:38:24,468 And...oof... 718 00:38:24,552 --> 00:38:27,972 when I found out what happened with your family, 719 00:38:28,055 --> 00:38:29,223 I was... 720 00:38:32,518 --> 00:38:37,690 I was jealous of your kids, because they didn't... 721 00:38:37,773 --> 00:38:39,817 they... 722 00:38:39,900 --> 00:38:41,986 in my definition of heaven, 723 00:38:42,069 --> 00:38:43,070 they... yeah. 724 00:38:44,447 --> 00:38:45,448 Oh, wow. 725 00:38:47,199 --> 00:38:49,910 [sighs] Yeah. 726 00:38:50,036 --> 00:38:51,037 Um... 727 00:38:52,246 --> 00:38:53,581 And I'm sorry I felt that way, 728 00:38:53,706 --> 00:38:56,584 because, obviously I know what you... 729 00:38:56,709 --> 00:38:58,794 That's so irresponsible. I'm so sorry. 730 00:39:00,254 --> 00:39:01,672 Uh, but yeah... 731 00:39:06,385 --> 00:39:09,930 I guess I hadn't realized how much some have struggled 732 00:39:10,014 --> 00:39:13,434 with and what the impact of his messaging has been. 733 00:39:13,559 --> 00:39:15,895 But there are a lot of people whose lives took a completely 734 00:39:15,978 --> 00:39:18,439 different route than they would have and who are still 735 00:39:18,522 --> 00:39:22,443 suffering from emotional damage from that exposure. 736 00:39:22,568 --> 00:39:24,403 And I had no idea. 737 00:39:24,487 --> 00:39:28,449 Yours is an amazing story because it started so young. 738 00:39:28,574 --> 00:39:30,076 You know, you were born into that. 739 00:39:32,453 --> 00:39:34,246 *It's mostly a the conversation 740 00:39:34,330 --> 00:39:35,790 we'd have over a beer, I hope. 741 00:39:35,915 --> 00:39:37,666 I know, I'd love to have a beer. 742 00:39:37,792 --> 00:39:39,627 -Yeah. -[Moses] Thank you, thank you. 743 00:39:39,752 --> 00:39:42,797 -[indistinct], seriously. -No, likewise, yeah. 744 00:39:45,549 --> 00:39:47,802 [Rusty] The tragedy in our family is related. 745 00:39:49,178 --> 00:39:53,516 I think this has maybe helped expose a bit of a pattern 746 00:39:53,641 --> 00:39:55,851 of manipulation with the Woronieckis. 747 00:39:55,976 --> 00:39:58,396 They are so exclusive, they're going to heaven, 748 00:39:58,479 --> 00:39:59,897 everyone else is going to hell. 749 00:40:01,232 --> 00:40:02,983 I think that looking back, 750 00:40:03,067 --> 00:40:06,487 I miscalculated the effect on Andrea. 751 00:40:06,570 --> 00:40:10,574 Now, I believe her delusions could well have been influenced 752 00:40:10,658 --> 00:40:13,285 by her exposure to the Woronieckis. 753 00:40:15,204 --> 00:40:16,205 If I had to do it all over, 754 00:40:16,330 --> 00:40:18,499 I would not have introduced her to them. 755 00:40:23,129 --> 00:40:24,755 [melodic vocalizations] 756 00:40:24,839 --> 00:40:26,215 [chuckles] 757 00:40:27,550 --> 00:40:29,677 Whoa! 758 00:40:29,802 --> 00:40:32,513 Happy Birthday, [indistinct]! 759 00:40:32,596 --> 00:40:35,224 [Rusty] I'll never be able to love as freely as I did 760 00:40:35,349 --> 00:40:39,270 before the tragedy. I'll try, but it's not easy. 761 00:40:40,396 --> 00:40:43,732 -[man] Ignition and lift off. -[man #2] Yeah! 762 00:40:43,858 --> 00:40:46,735 [Rusty] The way that I see it, we're this tiny blue dot 763 00:40:46,861 --> 00:40:50,197 in an enormous universe that's barely a speck, you know? 764 00:40:50,281 --> 00:40:53,242 That's the reality. That's what we can see. 765 00:40:53,367 --> 00:40:55,578 It's a cold, harsh universe. 766 00:40:56,871 --> 00:40:58,789 I hope this isn't it, you know?