1 00:00:02,700 --> 00:00:04,767 ♪ Comin' at you crazy ♪ 2 00:00:04,767 --> 00:00:06,700 [energetic hip hop music continues] 3 00:00:06,867 --> 00:00:09,266 -[crowd cheering] -[camera shutters snapping] 4 00:00:09,266 --> 00:00:10,867 ♪ So hot, so hot ♪ 5 00:00:10,867 --> 00:00:12,066 [cheering continues] 6 00:00:12,233 --> 00:00:14,767 All celebrities need their fans. 7 00:00:16,166 --> 00:00:18,000 But there's a thin line between fan... 8 00:00:19,100 --> 00:00:20,200 and stalker. 9 00:00:21,667 --> 00:00:22,967 You know, there's a negative side to 10 00:00:23,133 --> 00:00:25,200 everything we do in life. 11 00:00:25,367 --> 00:00:27,166 With all of the good stuff, there has to be some 12 00:00:27,166 --> 00:00:28,600 bad stuff going on. 13 00:00:28,767 --> 00:00:30,867 [unnerving piano playing] 14 00:00:30,867 --> 00:00:34,100 [Ashanti] He started sending pictures of my car. 15 00:00:37,700 --> 00:00:39,066 Like, that is like, OK -- 16 00:00:40,100 --> 00:00:42,066 this is getting serious now. 17 00:00:42,233 --> 00:00:44,266 [Scaachi] The problem is of a larger scale than I think 18 00:00:44,433 --> 00:00:45,500 we hear about. 19 00:00:45,667 --> 00:00:47,500 [Dana Martin speaking] 20 00:00:49,967 --> 00:00:54,000 [Scaachi] He wanted to marry Miley Cyrus, and she was only 16. 21 00:00:54,166 --> 00:00:57,266 [Dr. Pinsky] Selena was killed by the president of her fan club. 22 00:00:57,433 --> 00:01:00,667 My brother believed Taylor Swift was his soulmate. 23 00:01:01,867 --> 00:01:03,967 He wrote forty letters. 24 00:01:04,133 --> 00:01:07,367 "I'll have one goal in mind, to push Taylor to kill herself." 25 00:01:08,867 --> 00:01:10,200 [911 operator] 911 emergency. 26 00:01:10,367 --> 00:01:11,767 [caller speaking] 27 00:01:11,767 --> 00:01:14,166 [woman] He's in love with this girl named Sandy. 28 00:01:14,333 --> 00:01:15,767 [911 operator #2] What's your name, ma'am? 29 00:01:15,767 --> 00:01:17,066 [caller speaking] 30 00:01:17,233 --> 00:01:19,967 There are still holes in the law. 31 00:01:20,867 --> 00:01:24,967 [woman] My stalker appealed to the United States Supreme Court. 32 00:01:25,133 --> 00:01:26,600 [court official] Counterman versus Colorado. 33 00:01:26,767 --> 00:01:30,567 These are messages that came to me for six years of my life 34 00:01:30,567 --> 00:01:31,867 that were clearly threatening. 35 00:01:31,867 --> 00:01:33,700 Are they serious right now? 36 00:01:33,867 --> 00:01:36,200 [incoherent cheering] 37 00:01:36,367 --> 00:01:37,500 -Calm down -- -[camera shutters snapping] 38 00:01:37,667 --> 00:01:39,066 [man] Ashanti! 39 00:01:39,233 --> 00:01:41,467 [man #2] In his mind, thought he was married to Sandra Bullock. 40 00:01:41,634 --> 00:01:45,066 Murder-for-hire plot targeting pop star Justin Bieber. 41 00:01:45,233 --> 00:01:47,166 [investigator] You only seen her on TV? 42 00:01:47,166 --> 00:01:49,266 [Sandra] I hear someone banging on the door. 43 00:01:50,467 --> 00:01:52,400 [camera shutters snapping] 44 00:01:58,867 --> 00:01:59,967 [crowd cheering] 45 00:02:00,867 --> 00:02:02,600 A lot of people think fame is gonna be 46 00:02:02,767 --> 00:02:04,266 fun, interesting, glamorous, whatever. 47 00:02:04,433 --> 00:02:06,567 They're gonna be -- find happiness, right? 48 00:02:06,734 --> 00:02:08,000 One of the downsides, however, 49 00:02:09,166 --> 00:02:10,600 when you're out there in public so long, 50 00:02:10,767 --> 00:02:12,600 people can get strange obsessions. 51 00:02:12,767 --> 00:02:13,900 [crowd cheering] 52 00:02:13,900 --> 00:02:15,567 [Scaachi] When you're famous, you have to have fans. 53 00:02:15,734 --> 00:02:18,300 That is what sustains your career, and it sustains 54 00:02:18,467 --> 00:02:20,266 the longevity of your career. 55 00:02:20,433 --> 00:02:24,867 But there's a wide spectrum of what kind of fan you can be. 56 00:02:25,033 --> 00:02:26,767 You can be a casual viewer. 57 00:02:26,767 --> 00:02:29,367 You can be someone who likes them. 58 00:02:29,533 --> 00:02:32,967 Then you can be fans that defend their favorite celebrity 59 00:02:33,133 --> 00:02:34,266 tooth and nail. 60 00:02:34,266 --> 00:02:36,867 They harass other people if they feel like their 61 00:02:36,867 --> 00:02:39,166 preferred celebrity has not been taken care of. 62 00:02:39,166 --> 00:02:41,266 And then you keep moving along that spectrum, 63 00:02:41,433 --> 00:02:44,000 and then you have people who become obsessive 64 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:46,066 about a celebrity, stalking, 65 00:02:46,233 --> 00:02:48,066 sometimes physical violence. 66 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,400 As a physician, it never occurred to me that I would be 67 00:02:53,567 --> 00:02:55,667 even well-known enough to have a stalker. 68 00:02:55,667 --> 00:02:57,100 [man] Hey, Dr. Drew, how are you? 69 00:02:57,266 --> 00:03:02,567 In 2010, I had discovered something on MySpace. 70 00:03:02,567 --> 00:03:06,467 This guy was sort of actually accessing my MySpace thread, 71 00:03:06,467 --> 00:03:08,700 accusing me of things that seemed bizarre, so I went 72 00:03:08,867 --> 00:03:11,467 downstream into his MySpace. 73 00:03:11,634 --> 00:03:15,266 There was all this material about me, how I was tormenting 74 00:03:15,433 --> 00:03:19,066 him, and I thought, oh, this poor guy, he's psychotic 75 00:03:19,233 --> 00:03:21,166 and he's sort of delusional about me. 76 00:03:22,500 --> 00:03:26,000 Fast-forward probably nine months, I get a summons from 77 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:31,467 the Santa Monica court to go to small claims court because 78 00:03:31,467 --> 00:03:36,100 somebody claimed that I put a device in his tooth 79 00:03:36,100 --> 00:03:38,567 through which I could communicate with his body 80 00:03:38,567 --> 00:03:40,967 and cause him to have erections whenever I wished. 81 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:43,100 I don't know him. 82 00:03:44,100 --> 00:03:45,767 I never met this man. 83 00:03:45,767 --> 00:03:48,100 And I looked at that summons, and I thought, 84 00:03:48,266 --> 00:03:50,567 "Are you kidding me?" And I just threw it away. 85 00:03:50,567 --> 00:03:53,667 Then I got another summons 86 00:03:53,834 --> 00:03:55,567 saying, "If you don't show up next week, 87 00:03:55,567 --> 00:03:57,100 "we're gonna find you guilty 88 00:03:57,100 --> 00:03:59,567 and fine you to the full extent." 89 00:04:00,567 --> 00:04:02,266 And I go home to my wife, 90 00:04:02,433 --> 00:04:04,166 and I go, "I guess I'm gonna have to go to Santa Monica." 91 00:04:04,166 --> 00:04:05,367 She goes, "You're not -- the guy's crazy. 92 00:04:05,367 --> 00:04:06,700 "You're not gonna go to Santa Monica. 93 00:04:06,867 --> 00:04:07,767 "He could attack you. 94 00:04:07,767 --> 00:04:08,967 Who knows what he's got planned." 95 00:04:09,133 --> 00:04:10,200 She goes, "Let me look at this." 96 00:04:12,166 --> 00:04:14,900 Found a website with his name on it. 97 00:04:15,066 --> 00:04:17,200 She found... 98 00:04:17,367 --> 00:04:22,266 lengthy, elaborate descriptions of where we lived, coming to 99 00:04:22,266 --> 00:04:24,000 get my children and kill them 100 00:04:24,166 --> 00:04:27,867 and eat me and my children in front of my wife. 101 00:04:29,166 --> 00:04:32,600 So she called the police. Local police came to our house. 102 00:04:33,667 --> 00:04:35,166 My wife goes to the detective -- she goes, 103 00:04:35,333 --> 00:04:36,867 "Do you see what this is? Do you see? 104 00:04:36,867 --> 00:04:39,066 "He's talking about killing my children. 105 00:04:39,233 --> 00:04:41,600 You have to get him because if you don't, I will." 106 00:04:43,867 --> 00:04:45,567 They did arrest this man. 107 00:04:46,700 --> 00:04:48,767 He was a homeless person, meth addict, 108 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:54,100 was spending the nights at the library using 109 00:04:54,266 --> 00:04:56,800 their computers at night to develop all this stuff. 110 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,266 No idea why he got fixated on me. 111 00:05:02,433 --> 00:05:05,266 And he's not my only stalker. I've had other stalkers. 112 00:05:05,266 --> 00:05:07,567 I've had legal problems because of stalkers. 113 00:05:07,567 --> 00:05:10,867 And I think generally the public doesn't understand 114 00:05:11,033 --> 00:05:13,734 it has real dangerous potential. 115 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:18,467 The stalking episode that really changed how 116 00:05:18,634 --> 00:05:20,967 we approached celebrity stalking was Rebecca Schaeffer. 117 00:05:25,100 --> 00:05:26,567 [Scaachi] Rebecca Schaeffer was an actress. 118 00:05:26,734 --> 00:05:29,367 She was on a soap called "Guiding Light" 119 00:05:29,533 --> 00:05:32,166 and a sitcom as well that was on CBS. 120 00:05:33,467 --> 00:05:35,066 Rebecca Schaeffer, when she was 121 00:05:35,233 --> 00:05:37,000 in the TV show "My Sister Sam"... 122 00:05:37,166 --> 00:05:38,700 I used to live with my aunt and uncle in Oregon, 123 00:05:38,867 --> 00:05:40,100 but a few months ago I changed that. 124 00:05:40,100 --> 00:05:42,166 ...she had this very innocent, very lovely 125 00:05:42,333 --> 00:05:43,867 ingenue-type character. 126 00:05:43,867 --> 00:05:46,500 What if this makes up for the haircut you gave me when I was three. 127 00:05:46,667 --> 00:05:48,567 [Traci] And very sweet and innocent, 128 00:05:48,734 --> 00:05:50,700 and she just was America's sweetheart. 129 00:05:50,867 --> 00:05:53,900 But Rebecca had absolutely no idea that there was somebody 130 00:05:54,066 --> 00:05:56,467 that was wanting to meet her. 131 00:05:58,900 --> 00:06:03,767 [Dr. Pinsky] Robert John Bardo was a loner, had a history of having been 132 00:06:03,767 --> 00:06:06,967 placed in foster care. He never finished high school. 133 00:06:07,133 --> 00:06:10,100 He became a janitor, and in 1985, 134 00:06:10,266 --> 00:06:12,667 he was psychiatrically hospitalized and received 135 00:06:12,667 --> 00:06:15,000 a diagnosis of bipolar disorder. 136 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:20,100 [Traci] So Robert Bardo, he just fell in love with this character 137 00:06:20,100 --> 00:06:22,400 in the TV show, "My Sister Sam." 138 00:06:22,567 --> 00:06:25,367 And he thought, this is who she is. 139 00:06:25,533 --> 00:06:26,900 "I need to meet her." 140 00:06:27,066 --> 00:06:29,967 So he started sending letters to the studios. 141 00:06:30,133 --> 00:06:32,767 And she actually answered one of them and wrote back saying, 142 00:06:32,934 --> 00:06:35,567 "Yours was one of the nicest letters I got." 143 00:06:35,567 --> 00:06:37,266 [Traci] But that's back in the day where, you know, those 144 00:06:37,433 --> 00:06:41,066 press kits were sent out and, you know, a full 8x10 picture of 145 00:06:41,233 --> 00:06:42,333 her with her signature. 146 00:06:42,333 --> 00:06:44,867 So he believed that she was reading the letters that 147 00:06:44,867 --> 00:06:46,266 he was writing. 148 00:06:46,266 --> 00:06:48,266 And so he decided to come to visit her. 149 00:06:49,266 --> 00:06:50,800 And when he couldn't get on the set, 150 00:06:50,967 --> 00:06:52,266 he hired a private investigator 151 00:06:52,266 --> 00:06:55,100 to get her personal information through DMV. 152 00:06:56,367 --> 00:06:59,266 So Robert Bardo decided he was gonna go to her home, 153 00:06:59,266 --> 00:07:01,667 and he was going to introduce himself. 154 00:07:01,834 --> 00:07:04,100 She was gonna recognize him from the letters, and they were 155 00:07:04,100 --> 00:07:06,100 gonna live happily ever after. 156 00:07:06,266 --> 00:07:07,567 So he knocked on her door. 157 00:07:07,567 --> 00:07:09,367 She opened it, but she didn't know who he was. 158 00:07:10,667 --> 00:07:12,166 She told him, "This isn't appropriate. 159 00:07:12,333 --> 00:07:13,567 You have to leave." 160 00:07:13,734 --> 00:07:16,367 And he was very surprised by her reaction. 161 00:07:16,367 --> 00:07:19,300 And that seemed to mark a turning point for him 162 00:07:19,467 --> 00:07:20,800 and how he felt about her. 163 00:07:22,100 --> 00:07:24,000 [Traci] And he did leave. 164 00:07:26,467 --> 00:07:28,667 But he came back about an hour or two later, 165 00:07:28,667 --> 00:07:31,166 and she opened the door, 166 00:07:31,333 --> 00:07:34,500 and he shot her point blank in the chest. 167 00:07:36,166 --> 00:07:38,567 And she died on her way to the hospital. 168 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:43,166 So Robert Bardo was arrested, and he was brought back here 169 00:07:43,333 --> 00:07:45,767 for trial, and he's still in prison in California. 170 00:07:46,767 --> 00:07:48,367 And what was so tragic about this 171 00:07:48,367 --> 00:07:50,100 is that people knew about it. 172 00:07:50,100 --> 00:07:52,467 Prior to him coming out here, Robert Bardo had written 173 00:07:52,467 --> 00:07:54,467 a letter to his sister. 174 00:07:54,634 --> 00:07:55,867 You know, and his sister didn't know, 175 00:07:56,033 --> 00:07:57,367 you know, what to do with it. 176 00:07:57,367 --> 00:08:00,600 He had his brother purchase a firearm for him. 177 00:08:00,767 --> 00:08:02,000 His brother just thought he was gonna do 178 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:03,700 some target practice. 179 00:08:03,867 --> 00:08:05,767 Found the management company that was, you know, 180 00:08:05,934 --> 00:08:07,667 receiving the letters. 181 00:08:07,667 --> 00:08:09,867 You know, nobody knew what to do at the time. 182 00:08:09,867 --> 00:08:11,967 In response to Rebecca's murder, 183 00:08:12,133 --> 00:08:15,266 California established the first anti-stalking laws. 184 00:08:15,433 --> 00:08:18,100 Multiple other states took this up as well. 185 00:08:18,100 --> 00:08:22,667 LAPD formed a threat management unit to be able to better 186 00:08:22,667 --> 00:08:24,967 respond and assess these sorts of threats. 187 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:31,000 But celebrity stalking is still incredibly pervasive. 188 00:08:31,166 --> 00:08:32,100 There have been a lot of celebrities 189 00:08:32,266 --> 00:08:33,567 who've had stalkers. 190 00:08:35,100 --> 00:08:37,667 [Dr. Pinsky] Six years after Rebecca's murder, 191 00:08:37,667 --> 00:08:40,367 Selena was killed by the president of her fan club. 192 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,166 Another performer has a ton of stalkers -- 193 00:08:44,333 --> 00:08:45,600 that's Taylor Swift. 194 00:08:47,066 --> 00:08:50,000 Justin Bieber has had a number of stalkers over the years. 195 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:52,400 [officer] Do you know whose room that you entered? 196 00:08:52,567 --> 00:08:53,700 Yes. No. 197 00:08:53,867 --> 00:08:55,100 [Dr. Pinsky] Including one, I recall, 198 00:08:55,266 --> 00:08:58,400 who was in his bed in his hotel room when he arrived home. 199 00:09:03,967 --> 00:09:08,467 [Dr. Pinsky] Sonya Deville, a WWE superstar, had a stalker who broke into 200 00:09:08,467 --> 00:09:13,567 her home and waited for hours with a knife, plastic zip ties, 201 00:09:13,734 --> 00:09:17,467 duct tape, and mace to try to kidnap her. 202 00:09:32,667 --> 00:09:34,367 [Dr. Pinsky] These are common problems, 203 00:09:34,533 --> 00:09:36,400 but we got to do something about this. 204 00:09:37,467 --> 00:09:39,166 It's important for people to understand 205 00:09:39,166 --> 00:09:41,567 the consequences of fame, 206 00:09:41,567 --> 00:09:44,166 because it can drift into real trouble. 207 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,066 Every person that is in the public eye... 208 00:09:48,266 --> 00:09:50,567 if they are famous enough, 209 00:09:50,734 --> 00:09:51,667 will have stalkers. 210 00:09:51,834 --> 00:09:54,900 Give it up for Ashanti! 211 00:09:56,767 --> 00:09:59,367 [Ashanti] My name originates in Ghana. 212 00:09:59,533 --> 00:10:02,100 It means "the women," like, "women of strength." 213 00:10:02,100 --> 00:10:04,367 In this particular tribe, the Ashanti tribe, 214 00:10:04,533 --> 00:10:06,567 the women kind of, like, run things. 215 00:10:06,567 --> 00:10:08,700 So I was like, yes! 216 00:10:09,900 --> 00:10:12,467 You know, my mom named me something really cool. 217 00:10:12,467 --> 00:10:15,367 I never, like, woke up and said, "Hey, I want to be 218 00:10:15,533 --> 00:10:17,100 an artist -- I want to be a musician." 219 00:10:17,100 --> 00:10:19,500 That was just never my thing. I went to college. 220 00:10:19,667 --> 00:10:21,166 I was majoring in business 221 00:10:21,333 --> 00:10:23,266 and minoring in forensic science, 222 00:10:23,266 --> 00:10:26,567 so music really wasn't, like, the focus. 223 00:10:27,900 --> 00:10:29,467 Music kind of happened accidentally. 224 00:10:29,467 --> 00:10:35,066 I was singing and doing chores in my living room, and my mom 225 00:10:35,233 --> 00:10:37,166 came downstairs, and she's yelling at me, 226 00:10:37,333 --> 00:10:38,767 and she's like, "I thought I told you, 227 00:10:38,767 --> 00:10:41,000 "don't listen to the radio while you're vacuuming 228 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:42,266 and while you're doing your chores." 229 00:10:42,433 --> 00:10:44,667 And I'm like, "I wasn't listening to the radio. 230 00:10:44,834 --> 00:10:47,100 I was singing," you know? 231 00:10:47,266 --> 00:10:50,567 And she's like, "Wait, that was you singing?" 232 00:10:50,567 --> 00:10:51,667 And I'm like, "Yeah." 233 00:10:51,667 --> 00:10:54,367 And she called my dad and just came into this thing. 234 00:10:54,367 --> 00:10:56,800 And I just started doing, like, local talent shows. 235 00:10:56,967 --> 00:10:59,500 You're gonna love this next person that I'm about to bring out here. 236 00:10:59,667 --> 00:11:01,467 So please, let's get to our seats. Can we get -- 237 00:11:01,467 --> 00:11:04,266 And it kind of introduced me to the world. 238 00:11:04,433 --> 00:11:06,367 You know, I've been doing this since I was about 14, 239 00:11:06,533 --> 00:11:09,967 just working, you know, with Ja Rule and Fat Joe and Big Pun 240 00:11:10,133 --> 00:11:11,367 and J-Lo and things like that. 241 00:11:11,367 --> 00:11:14,800 When I'm with Ja Rule and with Fat Joe and, you know, all of 242 00:11:14,967 --> 00:11:17,567 these records and, you know, I'm like the little sister 243 00:11:17,734 --> 00:11:18,867 and I'm kind of like 244 00:11:18,867 --> 00:11:22,266 creeping up in the -- you know what I mean? 245 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:30,000 So my first album, "Ashanti," it just came from a place of me 246 00:11:30,166 --> 00:11:33,166 being a young girl going through 247 00:11:33,333 --> 00:11:34,967 all young girls go through. 248 00:11:35,133 --> 00:11:39,767 You know, I was just able to write my thoughts out to 249 00:11:39,767 --> 00:11:43,600 create an emotion for people, kind of like a catalyst. 250 00:11:43,767 --> 00:11:45,867 When you can't really put the words together, 251 00:11:45,867 --> 00:11:47,667 you can put on an Ashanti song and say, 252 00:11:47,667 --> 00:11:49,467 "This is how I feel." You know? 253 00:11:49,634 --> 00:11:54,500 I am so overwhelmed with just the reaction to the music. 254 00:11:56,967 --> 00:11:59,667 And went number one on the Billboard Indie Chart -- 255 00:11:59,834 --> 00:12:00,867 is amazing. 256 00:12:02,066 --> 00:12:04,767 You know, the fact that we came in top 10. 257 00:12:04,767 --> 00:12:07,467 [crowd cheering] 258 00:12:07,634 --> 00:12:09,600 [Ashanti] It makes me feel like, wow. 259 00:12:09,767 --> 00:12:11,066 You know, I've accomplished so much. 260 00:12:12,166 --> 00:12:15,867 I have a lot of family love and support. 261 00:12:15,867 --> 00:12:17,266 My mom is my manager. 262 00:12:17,433 --> 00:12:19,066 Is that right? Is that mom right over there? 263 00:12:19,233 --> 00:12:20,133 That's mom over there. 264 00:12:20,300 --> 00:12:23,500 [reporter] Unbelievable. Unbelievable. 265 00:12:23,667 --> 00:12:27,767 I have to say, I have some of the most amazing fans 266 00:12:27,767 --> 00:12:30,967 in the world. So I always try to be gracious. 267 00:12:31,133 --> 00:12:32,500 I always try to be courteous. 268 00:12:33,567 --> 00:12:37,000 But sometimes it does get a bit...invasive. 269 00:12:41,967 --> 00:12:46,467 So in 2009, I was actually playing Dorothy 270 00:12:46,467 --> 00:12:48,367 in "The Wiz" on Broadway. 271 00:12:48,367 --> 00:12:51,867 And my mom was getting, like, these pictures. 272 00:12:52,033 --> 00:12:54,100 [notification sound] 273 00:12:54,100 --> 00:12:56,300 -Texts. -[notification sound] 274 00:12:58,367 --> 00:13:02,266 It just progressively turned into something deadly. 275 00:13:08,300 --> 00:13:11,100 First time that I heard I had a stalker, 276 00:13:11,100 --> 00:13:16,266 my mom was getting, like, these pictures and texts. 277 00:13:16,433 --> 00:13:18,600 [notification alert] 278 00:13:18,767 --> 00:13:21,367 And it was just like, "Wait a minute. 279 00:13:22,467 --> 00:13:23,900 Well, that's weird." 280 00:13:25,100 --> 00:13:27,967 [Det. Mead] With the advancement of social media and the internet, 281 00:13:28,133 --> 00:13:30,800 it has allowed individuals a lot more access to 282 00:13:30,967 --> 00:13:32,266 a person's personal information. 283 00:13:32,266 --> 00:13:34,467 You can find out that person's cellphone number, 284 00:13:34,467 --> 00:13:37,367 where they live, potentially find out relatives. 285 00:13:37,367 --> 00:13:39,767 If you try hard enough, you can find out pretty much 286 00:13:39,767 --> 00:13:41,066 anything about anyone. 287 00:13:42,767 --> 00:13:45,000 So Ashanti doesn't know the person, 288 00:13:45,166 --> 00:13:47,867 but he was sending messages to her mom. 289 00:13:49,667 --> 00:13:52,266 [Ashanti] Some of the messages were really just about 290 00:13:52,433 --> 00:13:56,567 wanting to be with me and meant to be together. 291 00:13:56,567 --> 00:13:59,867 Some of his messages include what sounds like some 292 00:14:00,100 --> 00:14:03,300 mild delusions about having had a previous relationship, 293 00:14:03,467 --> 00:14:04,667 even though they had not. 294 00:14:04,667 --> 00:14:09,000 [Scaachi] A parasocial relationship is when somebody has 295 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,367 a relationship with a celebrity, effectively they feel like 296 00:14:12,533 --> 00:14:15,266 they know this person and they understand this person, 297 00:14:15,433 --> 00:14:19,867 but that person who's on screen or on your Spotify playlist 298 00:14:20,033 --> 00:14:23,500 or on TV, they don't know you. And so they're not having 299 00:14:23,667 --> 00:14:26,266 a relationship with you. It's just entirely one-sided. 300 00:14:27,900 --> 00:14:29,266 [Ashanti] So he was sending... 301 00:14:29,433 --> 00:14:31,967 lewd photos. 302 00:14:32,133 --> 00:14:33,967 It makes you feel a little... 303 00:14:35,166 --> 00:14:36,667 scared. 304 00:14:36,667 --> 00:14:38,700 This is like another line being crossed. 305 00:14:40,166 --> 00:14:43,100 [Traci] For somebody that is not a celebrity, 306 00:14:43,100 --> 00:14:45,467 our advice is to say, you know, "I don't want this." 307 00:14:45,467 --> 00:14:46,634 You know, "Stop this." 308 00:14:46,634 --> 00:14:49,967 But at a celebrity level, that is actually not something 309 00:14:50,133 --> 00:14:53,467 that we advise. We advise no contact. 310 00:14:53,634 --> 00:14:56,166 You think that, "Oh, well, I can just block them on a phone." 311 00:14:56,333 --> 00:14:58,967 Well, you really can't do that because they just create new 312 00:14:59,133 --> 00:15:00,767 memberships and new numbers. 313 00:15:00,934 --> 00:15:02,266 It spiders out. 314 00:15:02,266 --> 00:15:05,867 Stalking has been characterized and categorized 315 00:15:05,867 --> 00:15:07,900 various ways over the years. 316 00:15:08,066 --> 00:15:10,567 Two common categories from the past 317 00:15:10,567 --> 00:15:12,700 is simple stalking and erotomania. 318 00:15:14,367 --> 00:15:16,767 And erotomania is a very specific syndrome 319 00:15:16,934 --> 00:15:22,100 of a high-profile female being pursued by a man who's not 320 00:15:22,100 --> 00:15:25,000 in her social circle, who believes she's in love with him 321 00:15:25,166 --> 00:15:26,166 and that they're gonna get married 322 00:15:26,166 --> 00:15:27,433 or he's in love with her. 323 00:15:28,567 --> 00:15:31,166 Another tale of this is what happened to one of Hollywood's 324 00:15:31,166 --> 00:15:32,367 highest-paid actresses. 325 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:35,367 [911 dispatcher and caller speaking] 326 00:15:41,266 --> 00:15:43,900 [Traci] On June 8, 2014, Sandra Bullock came home 327 00:15:44,066 --> 00:15:45,900 about 1:00 in the morning, went to sleep... 328 00:15:46,700 --> 00:15:49,567 -[banging] -...and then she kept hearing more commotion. 329 00:15:49,734 --> 00:15:51,266 So she got a little nervous, and she got up. 330 00:15:52,767 --> 00:15:53,967 She walks out of her bedroom, 331 00:15:55,066 --> 00:15:56,567 and she realizes somebody's in the home. 332 00:15:56,734 --> 00:15:59,266 [suspenseful music playing] 333 00:15:59,266 --> 00:16:00,667 She runs back into her bedroom. 334 00:16:32,967 --> 00:16:35,367 [Traci] When officers stop the man on the stairs, 335 00:16:35,367 --> 00:16:37,467 he identifies himself as Joshua Corbett. 336 00:16:37,467 --> 00:16:39,800 He's 39 years old, from Los Angeles. 337 00:16:39,967 --> 00:16:42,000 And he tells them that he's -- 338 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,700 he's not a threat. He's not there to harm her. 339 00:16:44,867 --> 00:16:46,166 Detectives learned that he'd actually 340 00:16:46,166 --> 00:16:48,567 been there several days, 341 00:16:48,567 --> 00:16:52,867 walking around the house, looking at the layout. 342 00:16:52,867 --> 00:16:56,767 He wanted to show her that her home wasn't safe. 343 00:16:56,767 --> 00:16:59,867 So he jumped over, you know, the gate and tried to 344 00:17:00,100 --> 00:17:02,200 open the windows, open the doors, and then a lot 345 00:17:02,367 --> 00:17:04,867 of patio doors are not particularly secure, and he was 346 00:17:05,033 --> 00:17:07,767 able to pop it out, and he got in. 347 00:17:07,767 --> 00:17:11,667 The fact that Joshua Corbett actually scaled a wall, 348 00:17:11,667 --> 00:17:15,600 made it through security, came into the house 349 00:17:15,767 --> 00:17:20,266 really shows potential for serious consequences. 350 00:17:20,266 --> 00:17:23,367 What was more interesting was he had a little notebook, 351 00:17:23,533 --> 00:17:25,367 and he had pictures of her. 352 00:17:27,300 --> 00:17:31,000 He had writings to her and poems. 353 00:17:31,166 --> 00:17:34,266 He had a letter for her, and the letter was really just 354 00:17:34,266 --> 00:17:37,000 his love for her, and that it was, you know, 355 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,367 written in the stars, and that he wanted to take care of her 356 00:17:40,533 --> 00:17:42,667 and her son. 357 00:17:42,667 --> 00:17:44,800 [Scaachi] And the letter was signed, "Always and forever, 358 00:17:44,967 --> 00:17:46,467 love, your husband." 359 00:17:46,634 --> 00:17:48,166 But he is not her husband. 360 00:17:48,166 --> 00:17:50,500 She doesn't know who he is. He is a stranger. 361 00:17:52,367 --> 00:17:56,000 The fact that Joshua Corbett actually believed he was 362 00:17:56,166 --> 00:17:58,400 married to Sandra, that's erotomania. 363 00:17:58,567 --> 00:17:59,967 [indistinct police radio chatter] 364 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:02,266 [Scaachi] Authorities went to Joshua's house, 365 00:18:02,433 --> 00:18:04,166 and they found that he had 366 00:18:04,333 --> 00:18:06,767 a lot of ammunition, several rounds of ammunition, 367 00:18:06,767 --> 00:18:09,000 and several weapons, 368 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,200 including an illegal machine gun. 369 00:18:12,667 --> 00:18:16,266 [Traci] We also found out that he had a hanger at Burbank Airport, 370 00:18:16,266 --> 00:18:18,166 and we found pictures of her everywhere. 371 00:18:18,166 --> 00:18:24,266 He cut out pictures, and he put them in frames with the family. 372 00:18:24,266 --> 00:18:28,066 [Scaachi] He'd also been writing on the walls and on his furniture 373 00:18:28,233 --> 00:18:30,000 about his plans to sexually assault her. 374 00:18:31,700 --> 00:18:34,066 [Dr. Pinsky] On one hand, he claims he's married to Sandra Bullock. 375 00:18:34,233 --> 00:18:36,100 On the other hand, he's going to violently 376 00:18:36,266 --> 00:18:37,567 sexually violate her. 377 00:18:37,734 --> 00:18:41,467 He had appeared at her house for three nights 378 00:18:41,467 --> 00:18:43,467 before he actually made entry. 379 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:48,800 [Dr. Pinsky] This is like Unabomber stuff. 380 00:18:48,967 --> 00:18:52,767 This is a severe psychosis. 381 00:18:52,767 --> 00:18:54,266 It's delusional. 382 00:18:54,266 --> 00:18:58,867 But this really shows that adulation and adoration 383 00:18:59,033 --> 00:19:01,667 flips into "I want to be with that person," 384 00:19:01,667 --> 00:19:03,967 or "I believe that person wants to be with me" -- 385 00:19:04,133 --> 00:19:05,400 we're in big trouble. 386 00:19:07,867 --> 00:19:10,567 And Ashanti could end up in a similar situation 387 00:19:10,567 --> 00:19:12,200 with her stalker. 388 00:19:12,367 --> 00:19:15,567 This man initially was sending sexually explicit messages 389 00:19:15,567 --> 00:19:18,867 to her mom, which included a photo of 390 00:19:19,033 --> 00:19:21,800 his exposed genitalia, along with details about him 391 00:19:21,967 --> 00:19:24,266 masturbating to Ashanti videos. 392 00:19:25,667 --> 00:19:28,400 [Ashanti] And obviously my family, along with me, 393 00:19:28,567 --> 00:19:30,166 it's kind of affecting everyone. 394 00:19:30,166 --> 00:19:33,300 They didn't ask to be a part of this, you know? 395 00:19:33,467 --> 00:19:36,467 A lot of people often counsel women in every context, 396 00:19:36,634 --> 00:19:39,500 famous or not, to just ignore men when they harass them, 397 00:19:39,667 --> 00:19:42,467 and that doesn't work. That often makes them angrier. 398 00:19:42,634 --> 00:19:43,967 [Dr. Pinsky] And that's what happened here. 399 00:19:44,133 --> 00:19:48,266 Ashanti's mom ignores the texts, and even calls, from the stalker 400 00:19:48,266 --> 00:19:51,266 until she tells him to not call again. 401 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,567 But then he started sending pictures of my car, 402 00:19:58,066 --> 00:20:02,100 you know, parked in the front of the theater. 403 00:20:02,100 --> 00:20:06,967 He started sending pictures of my house, like aerial shots 404 00:20:07,133 --> 00:20:08,800 and shots of the front door. 405 00:20:08,967 --> 00:20:10,166 [notification alert] 406 00:20:10,333 --> 00:20:13,266 Okay, this is serious, serious now. 407 00:20:13,266 --> 00:20:15,166 And that can turn into something deadly. 408 00:20:17,467 --> 00:20:20,367 We made the decision, my team, my parents, my family, 409 00:20:20,367 --> 00:20:22,166 to kind of get law involved. 410 00:20:22,333 --> 00:20:24,567 [siren wailing] 411 00:20:24,734 --> 00:20:26,467 [Dr. Pinsky] They did arrest this young man. 412 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:30,767 He was an employee in the gym in Indiana 413 00:20:30,934 --> 00:20:33,367 and described in the media as a wannabe rapper. 414 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:44,667 The way that the story goes is I was doing a show in Chicago, 415 00:20:44,667 --> 00:20:48,467 and he felt like I locked eyes with him, and that was 416 00:20:49,467 --> 00:20:50,567 his open door. 417 00:20:59,467 --> 00:21:01,767 In 2009, this goes to trial. 418 00:21:01,767 --> 00:21:04,567 He claims that he was just sex texting and joking 419 00:21:04,567 --> 00:21:06,467 when he sent the graphic images. 420 00:21:06,634 --> 00:21:08,100 But I seriously doubt that. 421 00:21:08,100 --> 00:21:09,667 And even if it started that way, 422 00:21:09,834 --> 00:21:12,500 doesn't mean it will end the same. 423 00:21:12,667 --> 00:21:17,166 There is no way to predict when a man will turn abusive 424 00:21:18,266 --> 00:21:21,967 and if some superfan is gonna lose it on them. 425 00:21:22,133 --> 00:21:24,300 Part of why they're trying to get to this person is because 426 00:21:24,467 --> 00:21:27,300 these men seem to believe that they have an ownership over 427 00:21:27,467 --> 00:21:30,100 these women romantically, and they want to own a piece of 428 00:21:30,100 --> 00:21:32,367 them, and they want to break into the body. 429 00:21:32,533 --> 00:21:36,066 It's a larger kind of ownership and a larger entitlement. 430 00:21:39,967 --> 00:21:43,467 So this man's found guilty and put in prison for two years 431 00:21:43,467 --> 00:21:45,700 for unwanted sexual messages and stalking. 432 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,166 So Ashanti did exactly the right thing. 433 00:21:50,166 --> 00:21:52,200 Get out of there, get law enforcement. 434 00:21:52,367 --> 00:21:55,800 Because if you're waiting for the violent crime, it could be 435 00:21:55,967 --> 00:21:58,700 way too late -- for everybody. 436 00:21:58,867 --> 00:22:01,166 [Caitlyn] You look at, you know, John Hinckley, for example. 437 00:22:01,333 --> 00:22:03,667 He attempted to assassinate the president because he wanted 438 00:22:03,667 --> 00:22:05,834 to get the attention of Jodie Foster. 439 00:22:08,300 --> 00:22:10,900 Like, that is a delusional thought that led to 440 00:22:11,066 --> 00:22:13,066 an incredibly dangerous behavior. 441 00:22:13,233 --> 00:22:15,667 You know, Chapman, same thing, wanted to get attention 442 00:22:15,834 --> 00:22:18,066 and ended up killing John Lennon. 443 00:22:19,266 --> 00:22:21,767 Justin Bieber is another pop star 444 00:22:21,767 --> 00:22:24,467 who almost lost his life to a stalker. 445 00:22:26,900 --> 00:22:30,266 [Sgt. Pinon] I worked for the Department of Corrections for ten years. 446 00:22:30,433 --> 00:22:32,967 Dana Martin, he was serving a life sentence. 447 00:22:33,133 --> 00:22:35,000 He had actually strangled, with a necktie, 448 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,166 a 15-year-old girl in Vermont. 449 00:22:39,467 --> 00:22:42,967 Dana Martin, he's not just a murderer, he's also a huge 450 00:22:43,133 --> 00:22:44,567 Justin Bieber fan. 451 00:22:46,967 --> 00:22:51,233 One morning, he wanted to talk to me personally in private. 452 00:22:53,700 --> 00:22:55,767 Right away, he started talking about his tattoo 453 00:22:55,934 --> 00:22:57,166 of Justin Bieber. 454 00:23:04,867 --> 00:23:07,467 And he went on and on about how he's been trying to make 455 00:23:07,634 --> 00:23:08,900 contact with Justin Bieber. 456 00:23:09,967 --> 00:23:13,200 He said that he had written letters to Bieber were before 457 00:23:13,367 --> 00:23:14,533 and that he hadn't answered. 458 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,166 [suspenseful music playing] 459 00:23:20,333 --> 00:23:23,867 [Dr. Pinsky] Because he doesn't get the response he was imagining 460 00:23:24,033 --> 00:23:26,166 from these letters, he feels rejected 461 00:23:26,333 --> 00:23:28,166 and upset and irritable. 462 00:23:28,166 --> 00:23:30,367 And that's when he started telling us a story. 463 00:23:33,767 --> 00:23:36,500 [Sgt. Pinon] He had arranged for two individuals 464 00:23:36,667 --> 00:23:40,166 to travel to the East Coast, and he gave them a hit list. 465 00:23:41,967 --> 00:23:47,767 [Dr. Pinsky] Dana persuaded a former inmate who was released and his nephew 466 00:23:47,934 --> 00:23:50,800 to go and kidnap Justin Bieber... 467 00:23:56,066 --> 00:23:57,567 ...and castrate him. 468 00:23:59,667 --> 00:24:00,900 And murder him. 469 00:24:23,567 --> 00:24:27,000 The perpetrators accidentally crossed into Canadian territory, 470 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,467 and when they were trying to come back through the US border, 471 00:24:29,634 --> 00:24:31,200 they were stopped and taken in. 472 00:24:32,767 --> 00:24:34,266 [Sgt. Pinon] Their vehicle was searched. 473 00:24:34,266 --> 00:24:37,867 They were able to find shears and some neckties. 474 00:24:39,567 --> 00:24:42,767 Those were the tools necessary to commit the murders. 475 00:24:47,867 --> 00:24:50,800 In my opinion, I don't think Dana wanted to actually murder 476 00:24:50,967 --> 00:24:52,266 Justin Bieber, right? 477 00:24:52,266 --> 00:24:54,300 Because if he does, you know, he can't get no more 478 00:24:54,467 --> 00:24:57,667 music from him, no more news on what's going on with him. 479 00:24:57,667 --> 00:24:59,367 My impression is that Dana wanted... 480 00:25:00,367 --> 00:25:02,700 Justin Bieber to know who he was. 481 00:25:02,867 --> 00:25:05,000 He wanted him to, like, "Hey, you know, I am here, 482 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:06,367 I am a huge fan. 483 00:25:12,367 --> 00:25:13,867 That is psychopathic. 484 00:25:13,867 --> 00:25:18,100 So psychopathic thinking is also hard to follow. 485 00:25:18,266 --> 00:25:21,166 So in his mind, in the history books, Justin Bieber's name 486 00:25:21,333 --> 00:25:22,867 and his name would be aligned. 487 00:25:23,033 --> 00:25:26,000 That's as close to a union as he's gonna get. 488 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,900 And since he's a psychopath, any union is kind of the same. 489 00:25:30,100 --> 00:25:32,166 [Dana Martin speaking] 490 00:25:40,900 --> 00:25:43,767 Celebrities are a common target of stalking. 491 00:25:43,934 --> 00:25:47,166 but they are by no means the only people that are stalked. 492 00:25:48,100 --> 00:25:49,300 [Det. Mead] We see the whole gamut. 493 00:25:49,300 --> 00:25:52,166 We see people that are extremely famous, like Taylor Swift 494 00:25:52,166 --> 00:25:55,000 and Usher and Miley Cyrus, but we also see people 495 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,467 trying to make it into the music industry as well that 496 00:25:57,467 --> 00:25:59,467 have developed stalkers as well. 497 00:25:59,634 --> 00:26:03,166 If you don't have that level of stardom, I think sometimes 498 00:26:03,166 --> 00:26:05,066 it's not always on the forefront of their minds 499 00:26:05,233 --> 00:26:07,834 that this is a possibility that could occur to them. 500 00:26:10,300 --> 00:26:13,867 My name is Coles Walen. I'm a musician, 501 00:26:14,033 --> 00:26:15,667 singer, songwriter, and performer. 502 00:26:16,900 --> 00:26:18,700 Coles Walen is a rising star. 503 00:26:18,867 --> 00:26:19,867 This next song is a love song. 504 00:26:19,867 --> 00:26:21,400 It's called "Romeo and Juliet." 505 00:26:22,367 --> 00:26:23,767 I performed as a child. 506 00:26:23,767 --> 00:26:26,066 I play piano and guitar and was singing, so I've been doing it 507 00:26:26,233 --> 00:26:27,567 a long time. 508 00:26:27,567 --> 00:26:30,166 So when I graduated from college, I bought a camper, 509 00:26:30,333 --> 00:26:33,367 I moved into it, and I toured around the country in it for 510 00:26:33,533 --> 00:26:37,700 six years, just playing show after show, day after day. 511 00:26:39,266 --> 00:26:40,767 I got to go on tour with Pat Benatar, 512 00:26:40,767 --> 00:26:42,467 which was so awesome. 513 00:26:42,634 --> 00:26:44,266 I also played Akon. 514 00:26:44,433 --> 00:26:46,500 -Just so y'all know... -[crowd cheering] 515 00:26:46,667 --> 00:26:48,000 ...she's the shit. 516 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,367 [Coles] I opened for Joan Jett in Phoenix. 517 00:26:51,567 --> 00:26:54,200 So when my career was really coming up, social media was 518 00:26:54,367 --> 00:26:56,700 our primary means of advertising. 519 00:26:56,867 --> 00:26:59,000 Here we are, on our way to the music video shoot. 520 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:00,567 We're headed to Pasadena, California. 521 00:27:00,734 --> 00:27:02,367 Now we are on our way to Nashville. 522 00:27:03,266 --> 00:27:04,767 Yeah. 523 00:27:04,767 --> 00:27:06,300 Not just the shows that you were advertising, 524 00:27:06,467 --> 00:27:07,667 but it was more like yourself 525 00:27:07,667 --> 00:27:09,000 that you were advertising on there. 526 00:27:09,166 --> 00:27:11,100 [laughing] 527 00:27:11,100 --> 00:27:14,300 People were consuming any little detail that they could get 528 00:27:14,467 --> 00:27:16,467 about your life as a musician. 529 00:27:16,634 --> 00:27:19,266 And I remember we would make these videos that we would post 530 00:27:19,433 --> 00:27:21,567 to social media about, like, our day on the road 531 00:27:21,567 --> 00:27:24,367 and our green room backstage, all the way out until the show. 532 00:27:24,367 --> 00:27:25,867 Now we're tired, see? 533 00:27:26,033 --> 00:27:29,467 [Coles] The more personal you got, the more people would come out, 534 00:27:29,467 --> 00:27:31,066 because they -- more people felt they knew you. 535 00:27:31,233 --> 00:27:34,767 We just finished the bathtub scene for the music video, and... 536 00:27:34,934 --> 00:27:37,400 [Ashanti] I think social media is awesome. 537 00:27:37,567 --> 00:27:41,100 I think it's awesome to be able to let millions of people know, 538 00:27:41,266 --> 00:27:44,700 "Hey, I'm gonna be at this concert, you know, make sure 539 00:27:44,867 --> 00:27:46,867 you get your tickets. I'd love to see you guys." 540 00:27:47,033 --> 00:27:51,000 But also understanding that there are a lot of cons. 541 00:27:52,300 --> 00:27:56,767 Unfortunately, in the day of texting and social media 542 00:27:56,934 --> 00:28:01,367 and DMs and the way anybody can access celebrity now, 543 00:28:01,367 --> 00:28:05,000 that is just as powerful as back in the day actually seeing 544 00:28:05,166 --> 00:28:06,567 somebody face-to-face. 545 00:28:06,567 --> 00:28:10,667 And it gives the fan the illusion of a relationship, 546 00:28:10,667 --> 00:28:13,567 and that's how people can start to... 547 00:28:13,734 --> 00:28:15,900 misconstrue what's going on and then stalk. 548 00:28:17,266 --> 00:28:20,066 [Coles] I actually had some people in the industry that were 549 00:28:20,233 --> 00:28:24,467 pushing me to be more open about my personal life 550 00:28:24,634 --> 00:28:25,567 on social media. 551 00:28:26,567 --> 00:28:28,800 It just felt so foreign to me, you know? 552 00:28:28,967 --> 00:28:30,166 But it worked. You could see it. 553 00:28:30,166 --> 00:28:34,100 You could literally see the number of fans rising. 554 00:28:34,100 --> 00:28:36,900 At that time, my Facebook friend requests were set to 555 00:28:37,066 --> 00:28:40,100 automatic accept because we were getting hundreds a day. 556 00:28:40,266 --> 00:28:43,867 And it would have been totally impractical for me to weave through them. 557 00:28:44,033 --> 00:28:46,066 So I accepted everybody, gratefully. 558 00:28:47,100 --> 00:28:49,867 You don't actually know the people that you're 559 00:28:50,033 --> 00:28:51,667 communicating with. 560 00:28:51,667 --> 00:28:53,266 [notification alert] 561 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:56,367 [text message swoosh] 562 00:28:58,367 --> 00:29:00,467 I started to receive messages... 563 00:29:00,634 --> 00:29:02,567 [text message swoosh] 564 00:29:02,734 --> 00:29:05,867 ...from a man that I'd never met claiming that he was a promoter 565 00:29:06,033 --> 00:29:08,100 in Denver, which is where I live. 566 00:29:08,266 --> 00:29:13,367 And he's putting together a concert for relief 567 00:29:13,367 --> 00:29:15,300 from a natural disaster. 568 00:29:17,767 --> 00:29:21,400 And he wants to ask me to be a part of it. 569 00:29:21,567 --> 00:29:24,100 The first time he contacted me, his profile did not have 570 00:29:24,100 --> 00:29:25,867 a photo attached. 571 00:29:25,867 --> 00:29:29,000 And then he had messaged some other things 572 00:29:29,166 --> 00:29:31,166 that turned me off. 573 00:29:31,333 --> 00:29:34,300 [multiple text message swooshes] 574 00:29:36,100 --> 00:29:39,266 They did not feel alarming enough to me at that time 575 00:29:39,433 --> 00:29:41,000 to do anything other than ignore it 576 00:29:41,166 --> 00:29:42,467 and hope that it would go away. 577 00:29:42,467 --> 00:29:45,300 -[guitar playing] -[crowd cheering] 578 00:29:47,767 --> 00:29:49,166 Thank you so much. 579 00:29:55,100 --> 00:29:57,867 [Paul] Coles was moving forward with her life, and then he began 580 00:29:57,867 --> 00:30:01,767 sending messages on Facebook and these kinds of 581 00:30:01,934 --> 00:30:03,400 social media platforms. 582 00:30:03,567 --> 00:30:04,467 [text message swoosh] 583 00:30:04,467 --> 00:30:06,867 [Coles] The messages weren't about music. 584 00:30:06,867 --> 00:30:10,967 They were more like we were in a relationship, and we were 585 00:30:11,133 --> 00:30:14,700 chatting back and forth about daily things. 586 00:30:14,867 --> 00:30:18,600 "Can I pick you up a coffee on my way home from work today?" 587 00:30:18,767 --> 00:30:21,266 "Oh, you've been out of touch for too long. 588 00:30:21,266 --> 00:30:23,500 "We decided we weren't gonna, you know, play this 589 00:30:23,667 --> 00:30:26,066 game anymore." These kinds of things. 590 00:30:27,500 --> 00:30:32,100 [Dr. Pinsky] The stalking research is pretty clear that even negative 591 00:30:32,100 --> 00:30:36,266 contact or any contact will inflame the stalking 592 00:30:36,433 --> 00:30:38,667 and can reinitiate it in somebody who's stopped. 593 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,367 The advice is to not add oxygen to the fire 594 00:30:44,533 --> 00:30:46,900 and hopefully it dies out. 595 00:30:49,367 --> 00:30:51,800 But then the messages seemed to indicate 596 00:30:51,967 --> 00:30:54,266 that he was following her. 597 00:30:54,266 --> 00:30:56,767 [text message swoosh] 598 00:30:56,934 --> 00:30:59,900 [Coles] The longer that I went without responding, the more 599 00:31:00,133 --> 00:31:04,967 clearly aggravated and upset he was getting at me. 600 00:31:05,133 --> 00:31:09,467 It was very scary to receive messages like that. 601 00:31:09,467 --> 00:31:11,400 [text message swoosh] 602 00:31:13,467 --> 00:31:14,467 [Paul] Of course, you could say, 603 00:31:14,634 --> 00:31:16,467 "Well, I'm gonna block this person." 604 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,467 But this person then would move to another platform or another 605 00:31:22,467 --> 00:31:26,266 identity and continually try to get messages through to 606 00:31:26,266 --> 00:31:27,567 Coles successfully. 607 00:31:27,734 --> 00:31:32,500 [multiple text message swooshes] 608 00:31:37,100 --> 00:31:40,467 The messages extended for weeks, months, 609 00:31:40,467 --> 00:31:42,400 ultimately years, 610 00:31:42,567 --> 00:31:45,967 and these messages became very, very threatening. 611 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,867 I was performing all the time then, so my whereabouts were 612 00:31:57,867 --> 00:31:59,800 public knowledge. 613 00:31:59,967 --> 00:32:02,266 [Paul] She didn't know what this person looked like, 614 00:32:03,700 --> 00:32:07,367 he could have been any man out there in the audience. 615 00:32:07,367 --> 00:32:10,467 There might be somebody out there who wants to see her die. 616 00:32:10,634 --> 00:32:14,300 [suspenseful music playing] 617 00:32:16,767 --> 00:32:19,500 [Scaachi] Thirty years ago, it was a lot harder to get access to 618 00:32:19,667 --> 00:32:22,600 somebody that you liked, an actor or a singer. 619 00:32:22,767 --> 00:32:25,367 There were more steps to find out where people live. 620 00:32:26,700 --> 00:32:28,867 Now you can find all that a lot easier. 621 00:32:29,033 --> 00:32:30,867 If you post online, 622 00:32:31,033 --> 00:32:33,867 you know, there's often metadata about where you are. 623 00:32:33,867 --> 00:32:36,400 If you're a celebrity and you have a tour schedule, 624 00:32:36,567 --> 00:32:38,800 then I know exactly what city you're in all the time and I can 625 00:32:38,967 --> 00:32:40,767 probably try to figure out what hotel you're at. 626 00:32:40,934 --> 00:32:45,700 It is scary because it's really easy. 627 00:32:45,867 --> 00:32:48,166 And part of harassment online 628 00:32:48,333 --> 00:32:51,567 is in trying to push into the real world. 629 00:32:52,667 --> 00:32:56,467 I have been harassed on the internet for 15 years. 630 00:32:56,634 --> 00:32:59,266 I've had people try to track my IP address so they can see 631 00:32:59,433 --> 00:33:01,967 where I'm posting from, so they can find where I live. 632 00:33:02,133 --> 00:33:05,667 And you don't know which online threats will manifest in 633 00:33:05,667 --> 00:33:09,233 reality, so there's always a lingering threat of violence. 634 00:33:11,700 --> 00:33:13,600 [Coles] I was getting pretty fearful. 635 00:33:13,767 --> 00:33:16,800 It was scary enough that I should ask for help. 636 00:33:19,900 --> 00:33:21,000 So we called the police. 637 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:26,266 When this cop showed up, he only saw one screen, 638 00:33:26,266 --> 00:33:29,300 one screen of messages, 639 00:33:29,467 --> 00:33:31,767 and immediately called his supervisor and was like, 640 00:33:31,767 --> 00:33:34,000 "This is a serious case of harassment." 641 00:33:34,166 --> 00:33:37,467 And everything after that moved very fast. 642 00:33:37,634 --> 00:33:40,367 [Paul] Law enforcement officers were able to piece together that 643 00:33:40,533 --> 00:33:41,667 he had a criminal record. 644 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,567 His name is Billy Ray Counterman. 645 00:33:45,567 --> 00:33:48,867 He was prosecuted federally for interacting with another woman, 646 00:33:48,867 --> 00:33:51,200 threatened to kill her, to rip her throat out. 647 00:33:53,100 --> 00:33:56,667 [Coles] He was still on supervised released from his last arrest 648 00:33:56,834 --> 00:33:59,367 from the woman that he was harassing before me. 649 00:34:00,667 --> 00:34:06,800 Now like cold reality sets in and I am just like, paralyzed by 650 00:34:06,967 --> 00:34:08,400 shock and fear. 651 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:15,600 I learned that law enforcement calls stalking "slow homicide." 652 00:34:18,066 --> 00:34:21,700 And the detective said, "I'm really worried for you. 653 00:34:21,867 --> 00:34:23,900 "I'm really worried for your personal safety. 654 00:34:25,367 --> 00:34:27,867 Do you carry a weapon?" And I said, "No." 655 00:34:28,033 --> 00:34:30,400 And she said, "We offer a concealed carry permit class here. 656 00:34:30,567 --> 00:34:32,600 "You should enroll right away. 657 00:34:32,767 --> 00:34:35,667 "I've been through this before. I've seen victims. 658 00:34:35,667 --> 00:34:37,100 You don't want to be one of those." 659 00:34:40,667 --> 00:34:43,200 They went to his house that night, 660 00:34:43,367 --> 00:34:47,767 and they told him that he was under arrest for harassment. 661 00:34:47,934 --> 00:34:50,834 And he said, "Is this because of Coles Walen?" 662 00:34:53,300 --> 00:34:55,467 And when I heard that, it was just like bone-chilling. 663 00:34:56,700 --> 00:34:59,066 [Paul] Counterman was charged with three counts of violating 664 00:34:59,233 --> 00:35:01,367 a Colorado anti-threat statute. 665 00:35:02,567 --> 00:35:05,000 [Coles] The detective said that Billy Ray Counterman 666 00:35:05,166 --> 00:35:08,767 believed that we were in a relationship for many years. 667 00:35:08,934 --> 00:35:12,567 He thought that I was the one who was mentally unhinged 668 00:35:12,734 --> 00:35:16,100 and that he was saving me from committing suicide, that we had 669 00:35:16,266 --> 00:35:18,667 been married a few times and divorced a few times. 670 00:35:19,867 --> 00:35:22,300 And that every time I went off the cliff, he would have to 671 00:35:22,467 --> 00:35:25,367 talk me down for my suicidal tendencies. 672 00:35:25,533 --> 00:35:28,367 And he had tried to leave me several times, but every time 673 00:35:28,367 --> 00:35:31,300 he tried to leave me, I would, you know, claw him back. 674 00:35:32,667 --> 00:35:34,867 It's ridiculous. 675 00:35:35,033 --> 00:35:38,800 And then the detective told me that he gets let back out 676 00:35:38,967 --> 00:35:42,367 onto the street while he awaits trial. 677 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,166 [Paul] They were able to help Coles get a restraining order 678 00:35:46,166 --> 00:35:49,266 forbidding Countermen from going to any of her shows, 679 00:35:49,433 --> 00:35:52,266 but the enforceability of something like that, I think, 680 00:35:52,266 --> 00:35:53,867 is really open to question. 681 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:56,500 Restraining orders, at the end of the day, 682 00:35:56,667 --> 00:35:59,567 are famously pieces of paper that somebody can just 683 00:35:59,567 --> 00:36:01,200 walk right through. 684 00:36:01,367 --> 00:36:03,600 They require him to wear an ankle bracelet so they know 685 00:36:03,767 --> 00:36:04,900 where he is at all times. 686 00:36:06,066 --> 00:36:07,800 So he gets out. He's on the street. 687 00:36:07,967 --> 00:36:09,266 I'm on the street. 688 00:36:09,266 --> 00:36:11,066 Within the first couple of days, I get a phone call 689 00:36:11,233 --> 00:36:12,800 from the police station. 690 00:36:12,967 --> 00:36:14,000 [phone ringing] 691 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:15,467 And they're like, "Ms. Walen, are you at home?" 692 00:36:15,634 --> 00:36:17,467 I said, "No, I'm not." 693 00:36:19,467 --> 00:36:21,266 And they're like, "You cannot go home. 694 00:36:21,266 --> 00:36:22,367 He's at your house." 695 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,000 And when I heard that, I mean, just like all the air 696 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,200 leaves the car. Like, I cannot breathe. 697 00:36:35,367 --> 00:36:37,166 I do not know what to do. 698 00:36:43,300 --> 00:36:44,967 I don't live alone at this point. 699 00:36:45,133 --> 00:36:47,066 There's someone else. I have a roommate. 700 00:36:47,233 --> 00:36:49,367 Like, I've got to go home. 701 00:36:49,367 --> 00:36:51,967 Like, I've got to...help, you know? 702 00:36:52,133 --> 00:36:54,667 And while I'm sitting there trying to figure out 703 00:36:54,667 --> 00:36:56,767 what to do, they call me back. 704 00:36:56,934 --> 00:37:00,266 And it turns out they had misnotated our addresses. 705 00:37:00,433 --> 00:37:03,200 They had his home address as my home address. 706 00:37:03,367 --> 00:37:04,500 So he's at his house, 707 00:37:05,467 --> 00:37:06,667 not my house. 708 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,567 But the -- the damage is done by that point, you know? 709 00:37:13,734 --> 00:37:16,867 I mean, I am, like, on high alert at this point 710 00:37:17,033 --> 00:37:19,867 and I start to develop 711 00:37:20,033 --> 00:37:24,667 this fearful awareness of my surroundings, 712 00:37:24,667 --> 00:37:27,500 always looking over my shoulder, always looking out the door 713 00:37:27,667 --> 00:37:30,266 before I go out of the car, always trying to 714 00:37:30,433 --> 00:37:33,266 see what's around me. Where's the nearest exit? 715 00:37:35,567 --> 00:37:41,266 You become afraid to shop for groceries. 716 00:37:41,433 --> 00:37:43,567 You become afraid to walk to your car. 717 00:37:43,734 --> 00:37:49,066 Like, you cannot go through normal life without fear. 718 00:37:49,233 --> 00:37:52,667 Think about trying to be on a stage when there are hundreds 719 00:37:52,834 --> 00:37:55,400 of people there and you don't know many of them. 720 00:37:55,567 --> 00:37:58,767 You're totally exposed. 721 00:37:58,934 --> 00:38:01,367 I have a really hard time at this point being in places 722 00:38:01,367 --> 00:38:03,100 where I can't see what's around me, 723 00:38:03,266 --> 00:38:06,867 like on a stage with stage lights in my face. 724 00:38:06,867 --> 00:38:12,266 And it's just getting harder and harder for me to 725 00:38:12,266 --> 00:38:15,100 post where I'll be and at what time. 726 00:38:15,266 --> 00:38:19,467 And it all just came to a head 727 00:38:19,634 --> 00:38:21,500 at the show that we were playing in Dallas. 728 00:38:23,467 --> 00:38:24,967 I'm playing and I'm just 729 00:38:25,133 --> 00:38:27,000 like starting to... 730 00:38:27,166 --> 00:38:30,367 sweat and, like, see spots. 731 00:38:30,367 --> 00:38:33,767 Can't really breathe well, and I'm just, like, 732 00:38:33,934 --> 00:38:36,867 freaking out. And I... 733 00:38:36,867 --> 00:38:40,000 just left -- I had to leave the stage, 734 00:38:40,166 --> 00:38:42,367 which I've never done in all my years of performing. 735 00:38:43,500 --> 00:38:46,200 And...I go back there, 736 00:38:46,367 --> 00:38:48,667 and I just sobbed for, like, hours, 737 00:38:48,667 --> 00:38:51,266 like, a couple hours, because it just felt so terrible. 738 00:38:51,433 --> 00:38:54,567 And I thought, like, maybe it's not worth it. 739 00:38:54,567 --> 00:38:58,200 Like, maybe nothing is worth feeling this terrible. 740 00:39:00,166 --> 00:39:01,767 Yeah, it sucked. It was terrible. 741 00:39:02,667 --> 00:39:03,667 [producer speaking] 742 00:39:03,834 --> 00:39:05,066 Thanks, yeah, it was terrible. 743 00:39:08,266 --> 00:39:09,800 I canceled all my shows. 744 00:39:09,967 --> 00:39:12,066 I canceled all my public appearances. 745 00:39:12,233 --> 00:39:14,166 I couldn't -- I just couldn't do it. 746 00:39:14,333 --> 00:39:17,900 And I was very quickly just sort of dropped off the circuit 747 00:39:18,066 --> 00:39:20,100 that I had been performing at. 748 00:39:20,100 --> 00:39:22,166 So it was really hard. 749 00:39:23,467 --> 00:39:28,100 ♪ Years go by in fear, and joy gets small. ♪ 750 00:39:29,367 --> 00:39:33,800 ♪ I'm too tired to sing or play at all. ♪ 751 00:39:36,066 --> 00:39:39,000 When it becomes impossible to live the life that you've been 752 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:43,367 living for so long, you know, what do you do? 753 00:39:43,367 --> 00:39:46,567 It's insane that one person could have that much power 754 00:39:47,867 --> 00:39:49,600 over somebody they don't know. 755 00:39:49,767 --> 00:39:53,000 ♪ It would have been easy ♪ 756 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:54,767 ♪ to fade away. ♪ 757 00:39:54,767 --> 00:39:57,200 [Caitlyn] Cases generally very rarely go to trial. 758 00:39:57,367 --> 00:40:00,100 In stalking cases, it becomes a little bit more difficult 759 00:40:00,100 --> 00:40:02,000 because you have to convince the jury that, like, this is 760 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,767 a terrible thing that happened to a person, not a terrible 761 00:40:04,767 --> 00:40:08,500 thing that happened to this faceless, nameless celebrity. 762 00:40:09,367 --> 00:40:14,367 ♪ I'm not the... ♪ 763 00:40:14,533 --> 00:40:17,367 [Caitlyn] This is a person who was deeply affected by the behavior that 764 00:40:17,533 --> 00:40:18,734 the defendant committed. 765 00:40:18,734 --> 00:40:22,600 But ultimately, the best person to say these things and to 766 00:40:22,767 --> 00:40:23,667 convey these things to a jury 767 00:40:23,834 --> 00:40:26,000 is the person who they happened to. 768 00:40:26,166 --> 00:40:30,500 ♪ A little stronger ♪ 769 00:40:31,900 --> 00:40:34,066 [Caitlyn] It is hard because, you know, sometimes you're 770 00:40:34,233 --> 00:40:36,667 being re-traumatized by seeking justice for yourself. 771 00:40:38,867 --> 00:40:41,000 [Coles] The state of Colorado wanted to press charges. 772 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:42,867 They thought that this was stalking. 773 00:40:43,033 --> 00:40:45,100 And they were pretty sure that they could prove that it was 774 00:40:45,266 --> 00:40:49,000 stalking, but not if I did not agree to testify. 775 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:50,367 So I had this choice in front of me. 776 00:40:50,367 --> 00:40:54,100 Do I participate in the trial, or do I not? 777 00:40:55,367 --> 00:40:59,000 And I decided, ultimately, I decided to do it. 778 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:02,000 But if you asked me now, 779 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,600 after everything I've been through 780 00:41:04,767 --> 00:41:06,767 to do it, 781 00:41:06,767 --> 00:41:08,600 I unfortunately would tell you no, 782 00:41:08,767 --> 00:41:10,600 because it's just too painful. 783 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,367 [gentle piano music playing] 784 00:41:18,100 --> 00:41:23,567 So finally, we go to trial, and they put you in this 785 00:41:23,567 --> 00:41:26,967 protected little area before you actually 786 00:41:27,133 --> 00:41:29,100 walk into the courtroom. 787 00:41:29,100 --> 00:41:31,166 You're not supposed to actually see 788 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,000 this guy until you get into the courtroom. 789 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,900 But they didn't do a great job of that. 790 00:41:39,066 --> 00:41:41,867 So as I'm walking up in between, like, 791 00:41:42,033 --> 00:41:43,900 the police officer and the lawyer 792 00:41:44,066 --> 00:41:45,800 who's pressing the charges for the state of Colorado, 793 00:41:45,967 --> 00:41:48,266 he's also walking down the hall. 794 00:41:49,367 --> 00:41:51,467 And I come face-to-face with this guy 795 00:41:51,467 --> 00:41:54,467 who's been harassing me for years of my life. 796 00:41:54,634 --> 00:41:57,266 I just felt like, god, he just won. 797 00:41:57,433 --> 00:41:58,767 Like, he's right here. 798 00:41:58,934 --> 00:42:01,967 He has access to my actual physical self, 799 00:42:03,166 --> 00:42:06,567 in this tiny room, like, he -- he did it. 800 00:42:06,567 --> 00:42:08,567 He got to me, finally. 801 00:42:09,667 --> 00:42:11,166 It is... 802 00:42:11,166 --> 00:42:15,467 totally undescribable what that does to you as a person. 803 00:42:16,767 --> 00:42:20,900 When a particularly delusional stalker receives any sort of 804 00:42:21,066 --> 00:42:24,100 contact that he believes is personal and specific 805 00:42:24,100 --> 00:42:27,300 between the celebrity and he or herself, 806 00:42:27,467 --> 00:42:29,767 that inflames the stalking. 807 00:42:29,934 --> 00:42:31,233 Any contact. 808 00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,500 [Coles] And then, like cherry on top, he gets to listen to me. 809 00:42:37,567 --> 00:42:40,767 For a day and a half, I'm on that stand. 810 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,400 He's sitting at a table right here, and I'm on 811 00:42:44,567 --> 00:42:46,700 the witness stand, and we're facing each other. 812 00:42:46,867 --> 00:42:50,800 And I'm talking about how much he got to me, 813 00:42:50,967 --> 00:42:53,000 how affected I was. 814 00:42:53,166 --> 00:42:57,500 And then here comes my sister, who also has to talk about 815 00:42:57,667 --> 00:43:01,000 how affected I was and how it affected her life. 816 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:05,000 And he just gets to listen to all this stuff about my life. 817 00:43:06,367 --> 00:43:10,000 I just kept thinking, "God, like this is so unfair." 818 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,767 [Paul] At the trial, the defense was saying, "Oh, you're distraught 819 00:43:15,767 --> 00:43:19,567 and you're going overboard," trying to suggest that Coles 820 00:43:19,734 --> 00:43:23,000 had been some crazy woman who couldn't stand the heat 821 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:24,200 and needed to get out of the kitchen 822 00:43:24,367 --> 00:43:25,767 or something like that. 823 00:43:25,767 --> 00:43:28,300 [Coles] She's trying to make it seem like I am 824 00:43:28,467 --> 00:43:30,467 overreacting, you know? 825 00:43:30,634 --> 00:43:31,700 Did he send some creepy messages? 826 00:43:31,867 --> 00:43:32,867 Yeah, he did. 827 00:43:32,867 --> 00:43:34,166 Were they, like, maybe a little inappropriate? 828 00:43:34,166 --> 00:43:35,300 Yeah, they were kind of inappropriate. 829 00:43:35,467 --> 00:43:36,967 But was it scary? Of course not. 830 00:43:37,133 --> 00:43:40,767 It wasn't scary. Like, she's just overreacting. 831 00:43:40,767 --> 00:43:43,800 There's no reason to get the law involved. 832 00:43:43,967 --> 00:43:47,800 The burden is all on me, all on the state of Colorado. 833 00:43:47,967 --> 00:43:50,567 And the jury goes out, and we're waiting, 834 00:43:50,734 --> 00:43:51,900 waiting, waiting, waiting. 835 00:43:51,900 --> 00:43:54,567 It's taking a long time, like, longer than we had hoped. 836 00:43:54,734 --> 00:43:56,867 And so they finally say, "OK, we got a verdict." 837 00:43:57,033 --> 00:43:58,600 We all file back into the courtroom, 838 00:43:59,667 --> 00:44:02,700 and the jury comes out, and the judge says, 839 00:44:02,867 --> 00:44:04,667 you know, "Have you reached a verdict?" 840 00:44:04,667 --> 00:44:06,100 "Yeah, we have." 841 00:44:06,100 --> 00:44:09,066 And like, as he's handing over this paper to the judge, 842 00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:14,667 I'm watching it, and it's like, everything slows down. 843 00:44:14,834 --> 00:44:17,266 And I'm just thinking like, "Oh my God, like that's my life 844 00:44:17,433 --> 00:44:19,667 right there on that piece of paper." 845 00:44:19,834 --> 00:44:23,767 Nobody else in this room has more to lose than me. 846 00:44:25,767 --> 00:44:30,100 He just heard from me, from all my family, 847 00:44:30,100 --> 00:44:34,000 from my best friends, like he knows me now. 848 00:44:34,166 --> 00:44:38,467 He really knows me the way that he wanted to know me. 849 00:44:38,634 --> 00:44:44,000 If that says innocent, like, we leave here together, 850 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:48,700 and we will just go back out on the street, equal citizens. 851 00:44:50,100 --> 00:44:52,266 And, like, he's handing him the paper. 852 00:44:52,266 --> 00:44:55,166 It took so long. 853 00:44:55,333 --> 00:44:56,800 The judge finally gets the paper, 854 00:44:56,967 --> 00:44:58,367 and he just unravels it. 855 00:44:58,533 --> 00:45:00,500 [suspenseful orchestral music builds] 856 00:45:01,667 --> 00:45:03,767 [music stops] 857 00:45:07,967 --> 00:45:09,266 [Coles] The judge, he's like, 858 00:45:10,967 --> 00:45:12,266 "We find the defendant guilty." 859 00:45:16,367 --> 00:45:18,867 And I just remember, like, we just, like, sobbed. 860 00:45:18,867 --> 00:45:20,000 We just cried. 861 00:45:22,467 --> 00:45:24,367 And he got handcuffed, and he left, 862 00:45:24,367 --> 00:45:25,767 and he went to jail. 863 00:45:33,367 --> 00:45:35,100 Counterman was convicted of 864 00:45:35,100 --> 00:45:36,867 making threatening communications. 865 00:45:36,867 --> 00:45:39,266 He was sentenced to four and a half years 866 00:45:39,266 --> 00:45:41,000 in prison in Colorado, 867 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:44,266 and that finally gave Coles some assurance that Counterman 868 00:45:44,433 --> 00:45:45,800 couldn't be a threat to her. 869 00:45:48,266 --> 00:45:49,667 [Dr. Pinsky] When we hear about these stalking cases, 870 00:45:49,667 --> 00:45:52,100 we often learn about them from the perspective of the victim, 871 00:45:52,266 --> 00:45:54,100 the pain and the suffering caused. 872 00:45:54,266 --> 00:45:56,467 But I, having worked in a psychiatric hospital 873 00:45:56,634 --> 00:46:00,200 for many years, I would say to understand a behavior, 874 00:46:00,367 --> 00:46:02,600 you have to see it from the perspective of 875 00:46:02,767 --> 00:46:05,667 the perpetrator, especially if you want that behavior to stop. 876 00:46:07,567 --> 00:46:09,900 Probably the best way to get to know what's going on 877 00:46:10,066 --> 00:46:12,900 in the mind of a stalker is to get to the people that 878 00:46:13,066 --> 00:46:15,367 know them best and who see what's happening. 879 00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:22,367 [Larilyn] I think it's important to understand how people get 880 00:46:22,367 --> 00:46:26,266 into this situation like this and some of the behind scenes, 881 00:46:26,266 --> 00:46:28,467 things that were not in the paper. 882 00:46:28,467 --> 00:46:29,767 My name is Larilyn Adair. 883 00:46:30,767 --> 00:46:32,567 I have five older brothers. 884 00:46:32,567 --> 00:46:34,767 Mark is the youngest of the boys, 885 00:46:34,767 --> 00:46:37,100 and then almost six years difference between he and I. 886 00:46:39,567 --> 00:46:42,166 We kind of lived in a little bit of a country town 887 00:46:42,333 --> 00:46:45,400 in Georgia. He was always very smart. 888 00:46:45,567 --> 00:46:48,266 Never had to study for a test. Brought home straight A's. 889 00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:51,266 Mark was... 890 00:46:51,266 --> 00:46:53,600 the musician, the artist, 891 00:46:53,767 --> 00:46:56,467 and he had a lot of girlfriends back in high school. 892 00:46:56,634 --> 00:46:58,600 And they were like, "Oh, you're Mark's sister. 893 00:46:58,767 --> 00:46:59,934 You're Mark's sister." 894 00:46:59,934 --> 00:47:02,367 He was really into a lot of Jimi Hendrix music, a lot of 895 00:47:02,367 --> 00:47:04,767 Lynyrd Skynyrd. He played really well. 896 00:47:04,934 --> 00:47:07,166 I could hear the door closed in his room. 897 00:47:07,166 --> 00:47:08,767 He'd have a couple of buddies in there. 898 00:47:08,767 --> 00:47:09,800 They'd be jamming. 899 00:47:09,967 --> 00:47:11,567 [rock music plays] 900 00:47:11,567 --> 00:47:14,400 Their Friday and Saturday night get-togethers were pretty loud. 901 00:47:15,567 --> 00:47:18,667 After high school, my dad told him that he had to go. 902 00:47:18,834 --> 00:47:21,967 He stayed with one of my other brothers, 903 00:47:22,133 --> 00:47:23,500 supposedly to get a job. 904 00:47:24,767 --> 00:47:27,967 Over the years, we noticed that he was a little different. 905 00:47:28,133 --> 00:47:31,400 He would come up with these conversations about UFOs, 906 00:47:31,567 --> 00:47:33,500 and he was very believable, 907 00:47:33,667 --> 00:47:36,700 but then it came a time where he said that he went up 908 00:47:36,867 --> 00:47:38,400 into the mothership, 909 00:47:38,567 --> 00:47:41,900 and they examined his body, and they sent him back. 910 00:47:42,066 --> 00:47:44,667 I don't believe in that, but he did, 911 00:47:44,667 --> 00:47:46,367 and so I just kind of went along with it. 912 00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:51,266 The preoccupation with aliens and aliens coming is 913 00:47:51,266 --> 00:47:53,867 sort of delusional, and I think it's important to 914 00:47:54,033 --> 00:47:55,233 sort of point out what delusions are. 915 00:47:55,233 --> 00:47:59,800 Delusions are thoughts that are not based in reality that 916 00:47:59,967 --> 00:48:02,066 somebody really can't be convinced out of, 917 00:48:02,233 --> 00:48:05,266 and they often involve what's happening in the world 918 00:48:05,433 --> 00:48:06,567 in relation to me. 919 00:48:06,567 --> 00:48:08,767 Some celebrity is speaking directly to me 920 00:48:08,767 --> 00:48:09,867 through the radio or television. 921 00:48:10,033 --> 00:48:12,567 And you can see, I mean, you can sort of reason 922 00:48:12,734 --> 00:48:15,367 how that kind of distorted thinking can easily 923 00:48:15,533 --> 00:48:17,300 start to preoccupy somebody. 924 00:48:17,467 --> 00:48:21,266 And particularly when you feel that that person either 925 00:48:21,266 --> 00:48:24,967 owes you something, or is causing you something, 926 00:48:25,133 --> 00:48:26,700 or is gonna save you from something. 927 00:48:27,767 --> 00:48:29,867 [ominous tones playing] 928 00:48:31,567 --> 00:48:34,767 [Larilyn] In 2009, Mark lived in a little fishing cottage. 929 00:48:36,100 --> 00:48:38,300 Somewhere along the line, he fell in love. 930 00:48:40,066 --> 00:48:41,867 Mark comes over to the house one day and says, 931 00:48:41,867 --> 00:48:45,567 "I need Mom's diamond ring." And I said, "Whoa." 932 00:48:47,166 --> 00:48:48,467 So I said, "Why do you need it?" 933 00:48:48,467 --> 00:48:51,266 He said, "Well, I'm gonna get engaged." 934 00:48:51,266 --> 00:48:52,567 And I was like, "Oh, really?" 935 00:48:52,567 --> 00:48:55,700 And kind of excited for him because he was in his 50s 936 00:48:55,867 --> 00:48:57,166 and finally gonna get married. 937 00:48:58,266 --> 00:49:01,100 And that's when he told me that he had been talking to someone 938 00:49:01,100 --> 00:49:05,000 online and that he wanted to send her something in the mail, 939 00:49:05,166 --> 00:49:06,467 send her a ring. 940 00:49:06,467 --> 00:49:08,967 So I asked Mark, I said, "What is her name?" 941 00:49:09,133 --> 00:49:10,367 And he didn't want to tell me at first, 942 00:49:10,367 --> 00:49:11,800 and finally he said, "Miley." 943 00:49:13,266 --> 00:49:15,200 And I was like, "Well, what's her last name?" 944 00:49:15,367 --> 00:49:16,967 And he didn't want to tell me at all. 945 00:49:17,133 --> 00:49:18,567 And then I kind of figured it out. 946 00:49:18,567 --> 00:49:20,266 [ominous chord strike] 947 00:49:20,266 --> 00:49:21,467 It was Miley Cyrus. 948 00:49:28,300 --> 00:49:31,367 [Scaachi] Miley Cyrus is the daughter of Billy Ray Cyrus, 949 00:49:31,533 --> 00:49:33,967 and she used to be a mainstay on the Disney Channel... 950 00:49:34,133 --> 00:49:36,100 [upbeat music plays] 951 00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:38,367 ...on a show called "Hannah Montana." 952 00:49:38,367 --> 00:49:41,000 I love her show. It's so, like, inspiring. 953 00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:42,500 [Scaachi] She was on every backpack 954 00:49:42,667 --> 00:49:44,600 in every middle school for a while. 955 00:49:44,767 --> 00:49:46,967 Yeah, she's, like, a really good role model. 956 00:49:47,133 --> 00:49:48,867 Disney Channel played that show on a loop. 957 00:49:49,033 --> 00:49:51,100 -[reporters, yelling] Miley! -[camera shutters snapping] 958 00:49:51,266 --> 00:49:53,734 You know, there are rappers who've made songs 959 00:49:53,900 --> 00:49:56,266 about Hannah Montana. I mean, she was everywhere. 960 00:49:56,266 --> 00:49:58,367 [indistinct yelling] 961 00:50:01,867 --> 00:50:03,767 [Larilyn] Mark has always been into music. 962 00:50:03,934 --> 00:50:06,667 He was in a fan base chat room with Miley, 963 00:50:06,667 --> 00:50:08,300 which he thought was Miley. 964 00:50:08,467 --> 00:50:11,166 And somewhere along the line, he was really thinking that 965 00:50:11,333 --> 00:50:13,266 he was talking to her, which we know 966 00:50:13,433 --> 00:50:14,800 he probably was not. 967 00:50:14,967 --> 00:50:18,066 It was just an infatuation with her music and with her. 968 00:50:18,233 --> 00:50:21,266 In 2009, Miley Cyrus came out with a song 969 00:50:21,266 --> 00:50:22,734 called "Party in the USA," 970 00:50:22,900 --> 00:50:27,300 and there was a lot of controversy. 971 00:50:27,467 --> 00:50:30,400 People were up in arms that she was pole dancing, 972 00:50:31,467 --> 00:50:33,734 and she was only 16. 973 00:50:33,900 --> 00:50:37,000 But the reality is that when you're a famous girl, 974 00:50:37,166 --> 00:50:40,000 your adulthood starts earlier, and people start looking 975 00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:42,600 at you differently already in your late teen years. 976 00:50:42,767 --> 00:50:45,567 -[reporters, yelling] Miley! -[camera shutters snapping] 977 00:50:45,734 --> 00:50:48,266 [Scaachi] I mean, when Miley was like 12, 13, people were already 978 00:50:48,433 --> 00:50:51,166 talking about like, "Ooh, I can't wait till she turns 18." 979 00:50:51,333 --> 00:50:55,000 So this was true for Miley Cyrus, Selena Gomez, 980 00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:56,600 the Olsen twins. 981 00:50:56,767 --> 00:50:58,467 They were doing this with Millie Bobby Brown 982 00:50:58,634 --> 00:51:01,367 like, five minutes ago. -Gosh, it's so gross. 983 00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:07,166 In Mark's case, this man's in his mid-50s at the time, 984 00:51:07,333 --> 00:51:10,266 and Miley is a young adolescent, 15, 16-year-old, 985 00:51:10,266 --> 00:51:12,900 and he does not perceive the age difference 986 00:51:13,066 --> 00:51:15,166 or the fact that this is pedophilia. 987 00:51:15,333 --> 00:51:18,100 I thought that it was just another one of his things that 988 00:51:18,266 --> 00:51:20,467 he was, you know, excited about, whether it be 989 00:51:20,634 --> 00:51:22,867 the UFOs or the mothership. 990 00:51:23,033 --> 00:51:26,500 You know, I did not put any red flags. 991 00:51:26,667 --> 00:51:30,467 Nothing came up in my mind at that point until he decided 992 00:51:30,634 --> 00:51:32,400 that he wanted to marry her. 993 00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:37,734 Mark was stubborn, and you couldn't 994 00:51:37,900 --> 00:51:38,934 change his mind. 995 00:51:38,934 --> 00:51:41,066 If he believed that that was her talking to him, 996 00:51:41,233 --> 00:51:42,400 that was her talking. 997 00:51:42,567 --> 00:51:44,800 So he decided to go to a pawn shop, 998 00:51:44,967 --> 00:51:48,900 pawned his favorite guitar, and got a ring 999 00:51:49,967 --> 00:51:51,000 and sent it in the mail. 1000 00:51:51,166 --> 00:51:53,000 [ominous orchestral music builds] 1001 00:51:53,166 --> 00:51:55,867 In Mark's case, he's pretty clearly erotomania. 1002 00:51:57,467 --> 00:52:02,066 But it's also, I think, a biological phenomenon we call anosognosia, 1003 00:52:02,233 --> 00:52:06,367 where the sufferer literally can't see what's happening 1004 00:52:06,367 --> 00:52:10,667 and so delusional disorders beg no alternative 1005 00:52:10,834 --> 00:52:14,767 because they can't -- they can't step out of the delusion, 1006 00:52:14,767 --> 00:52:17,734 and they can't reason about it. -[Larilyn] It alarmed me but at that point, 1007 00:52:17,900 --> 00:52:20,767 I didn't realize the extent of his desire to try to 1008 00:52:20,934 --> 00:52:22,734 be with her or get closer to her. 1009 00:52:22,900 --> 00:52:26,066 A couple of his friends had told me that he followed her 1010 00:52:26,233 --> 00:52:31,100 to several concerts... and being that there was 1011 00:52:31,100 --> 00:52:32,567 not a lot of money, he said 1012 00:52:32,567 --> 00:52:35,467 he stayed in his car and that he would go to campgrounds 1013 00:52:35,467 --> 00:52:37,166 and take showers. 1014 00:52:37,166 --> 00:52:40,000 I believe there was a concert where she came 1015 00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:41,367 close to the stage... 1016 00:52:41,533 --> 00:52:43,266 [crowd cheering] 1017 00:52:43,266 --> 00:52:45,567 ...and was singing with her mic and looking at the people 1018 00:52:45,734 --> 00:52:47,667 in the crowd. Mark was in the crowd. 1019 00:52:48,867 --> 00:52:51,467 And she made eye contact with him. 1020 00:52:51,634 --> 00:52:54,667 I'm sure that he was excited that she did that, 1021 00:52:54,667 --> 00:52:57,567 and so he decides to go and try to get on the tour bus. 1022 00:53:01,100 --> 00:53:03,600 They call security, and he was asked to leave. 1023 00:53:04,500 --> 00:53:06,100 Then there was another concert 1024 00:53:06,100 --> 00:53:10,367 where he tried to get on the tour bus again, and he said 1025 00:53:10,367 --> 00:53:14,867 that Billy Ray happened to walk by and say, "How you doing, man? 1026 00:53:14,867 --> 00:53:16,000 I'm praying for you." 1027 00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:21,567 In March 2009, Miley had a book signing in Manhattan. 1028 00:53:21,567 --> 00:53:24,767 She has a lot of fans going to be there. 1029 00:53:24,934 --> 00:53:26,900 He decided that he was gonna go to New York 1030 00:53:27,066 --> 00:53:28,600 to her book signing. 1031 00:53:28,767 --> 00:53:31,300 Takes a bus to New York, sleeps on the street 1032 00:53:31,467 --> 00:53:33,367 for a couple of nights. He wants to be first in line. 1033 00:53:35,367 --> 00:53:37,734 He decides to get some flowers and goes in 1034 00:53:37,900 --> 00:53:39,000 to the book signing. 1035 00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:42,667 There was a TV station that decided to film him 1036 00:53:42,834 --> 00:53:45,166 on the way in. -Hold me up. 1037 00:53:45,333 --> 00:53:46,800 [nervous laughter] 1038 00:53:46,967 --> 00:53:49,000 I'm a little bit nervous. 1039 00:53:49,166 --> 00:53:51,100 It's the first time I've ever actually been 1040 00:53:51,100 --> 00:53:54,600 face-to-face with her. -These stories of male stalkers 1041 00:53:54,767 --> 00:53:57,567 who talk to female celebrities like this, 1042 00:53:57,567 --> 00:53:59,467 it's so beyond creepy. 1043 00:53:59,634 --> 00:54:01,000 I mean, the age difference alone, 1044 00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:03,567 but he also doesn't know her. 1045 00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:07,100 [Larilyn] He goes in to the book signing 1046 00:54:07,266 --> 00:54:09,266 [suspenseful music plays] 1047 00:54:10,367 --> 00:54:11,467 and proposes. 1048 00:54:12,967 --> 00:54:15,367 And later he told me that she says, 1049 00:54:15,533 --> 00:54:18,667 "I'm flattered, thank you so much for the flowers," 1050 00:54:18,834 --> 00:54:20,900 and she signed his book, and he goes on his way. 1051 00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:24,567 Miley is relatively new in her celebrity. 1052 00:54:24,567 --> 00:54:27,400 She's a young adolescent. 1053 00:54:27,567 --> 00:54:29,467 She would have no understanding of mental illness 1054 00:54:29,467 --> 00:54:31,100 and delusional disorders. 1055 00:54:31,266 --> 00:54:34,066 I'm certain she had lots of fan interaction 1056 00:54:34,233 --> 00:54:35,900 with particularly young people. 1057 00:54:36,066 --> 00:54:38,567 And she did it just the way she always does -- 1058 00:54:38,567 --> 00:54:41,166 "Thank you," and then things move along. 1059 00:54:41,166 --> 00:54:42,767 [ominous chord strike] 1060 00:54:42,767 --> 00:54:45,567 But it's important to remember that in Rebecca Schaefer's case, 1061 00:54:45,734 --> 00:54:48,400 the stalker received a signed photograph 1062 00:54:48,567 --> 00:54:52,100 and a letter, and that was enough to inflame him. 1063 00:54:52,266 --> 00:54:55,467 And similarly, Miley engaged in an appropriate 1064 00:54:56,500 --> 00:54:57,667 exchange with him. 1065 00:54:57,667 --> 00:54:59,867 And just like in the case of Rebecca Schaefer's stalker, 1066 00:54:59,867 --> 00:55:02,467 it could be just yet more time 1067 00:55:02,467 --> 00:55:05,400 before this thing got worse, aggressive or violent. 1068 00:55:05,567 --> 00:55:07,266 [suspenseful chord strike] 1069 00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:10,400 [Stephanie] My name is Stephanie Vickers. 1070 00:55:10,567 --> 00:55:12,467 I have been an actor for many years. 1071 00:55:12,634 --> 00:55:15,767 In film, you will have stand-ins, photo doubles, 1072 00:55:15,767 --> 00:55:18,266 stunt doubles, body doubles. 1073 00:55:18,266 --> 00:55:22,066 Someone that is standing in for the actor and their body is 1074 00:55:22,233 --> 00:55:23,333 being used on camera, 1075 00:55:23,333 --> 00:55:26,867 and I was a photo double and stand-in for Miley Cyrus 1076 00:55:27,033 --> 00:55:28,567 on "The Last Song." 1077 00:55:28,567 --> 00:55:31,066 [Scaachi] In 2009, Miley Cyrus was filming a movie 1078 00:55:31,233 --> 00:55:34,567 with Liam Hemsworth called "The Last Song," which was based 1079 00:55:34,734 --> 00:55:37,667 off of a Nicholas Sparks book. -I was excited to make a film 1080 00:55:37,834 --> 00:55:40,100 that I think people would see me step away from what they usually 1081 00:55:40,100 --> 00:55:42,567 expect me to do and see me in a different light. 1082 00:55:42,734 --> 00:55:44,467 So when you are a photo double, your face 1083 00:55:44,467 --> 00:55:47,100 will not be on camera. The camera is always gonna be 1084 00:55:47,100 --> 00:55:49,400 over your back shoulder or to the side. 1085 00:55:49,567 --> 00:55:50,967 It's gonna be the back of your hair. 1086 00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:56,000 And that's me, so my hair had to match. 1087 00:55:56,166 --> 00:55:58,367 I had to have the exact clothes that she was wearing. 1088 00:55:58,367 --> 00:56:01,667 I had to have my fingernails painted the same color, 1089 00:56:01,667 --> 00:56:03,767 toenails, anything like that. 1090 00:56:03,767 --> 00:56:06,000 The movie was not filmed on a soundstage in LA, 1091 00:56:06,166 --> 00:56:07,734 it was actually filmed on location 1092 00:56:07,900 --> 00:56:09,800 in Tybee Island in Georgia. 1093 00:56:09,967 --> 00:56:11,567 [crowd cheering] 1094 00:56:11,567 --> 00:56:13,967 [Stephanie] We've got beach, we've got beach houses, 1095 00:56:14,133 --> 00:56:16,500 we've got big pavilions. 1096 00:56:16,667 --> 00:56:21,800 Making it safe for everyone to work is a massive undertaking. 1097 00:56:24,266 --> 00:56:26,600 On "The Last Song," we have a beach, 1098 00:56:26,767 --> 00:56:30,100 which is not private, but it has to 1099 00:56:30,100 --> 00:56:32,867 become that while you're shooting. 1100 00:56:32,867 --> 00:56:35,467 But you can't close off the entire island. 1101 00:56:37,367 --> 00:56:40,734 Set safety is for everyone, not just the people who are 1102 00:56:40,900 --> 00:56:43,767 working on the project, but also the people around it. 1103 00:56:43,767 --> 00:56:45,734 [producer] She's standing right there beside that blue thing. 1104 00:56:45,900 --> 00:56:49,467 Those kind of things matter, and they are paramount. 1105 00:56:49,634 --> 00:56:51,467 While they're still filming this movie, 1106 00:56:51,467 --> 00:56:53,567 Mark comes to the set. 1107 00:56:53,567 --> 00:56:55,467 [ominous chord strike] 1108 00:56:55,467 --> 00:56:57,000 [Larilyn] Mark goes out on the rocks 1109 00:56:57,166 --> 00:56:58,767 so he could get closer to her, 1110 00:56:59,734 --> 00:57:02,600 and he just wanted to profess his love. 1111 00:57:02,767 --> 00:57:03,867 He essentially is saying that he's going to 1112 00:57:04,033 --> 00:57:05,467 marry Miley Cyrus. 1113 00:57:05,467 --> 00:57:07,667 The security officers ask him to please come back 1114 00:57:07,834 --> 00:57:09,667 off the rocks, please come back onto the beach. 1115 00:57:09,834 --> 00:57:11,767 [camera shutter snaps] 1116 00:57:11,934 --> 00:57:15,367 Now he starts making lewd remarks to some of 1117 00:57:15,367 --> 00:57:17,400 the other people around the set. 1118 00:57:17,567 --> 00:57:19,000 [camera shutter snaps] 1119 00:57:19,166 --> 00:57:21,300 He starts screaming obscenities. 1120 00:57:23,100 --> 00:57:24,467 The police try to restrain him. 1121 00:57:25,767 --> 00:57:27,767 Well, he didn't like that too much. 1122 00:57:33,967 --> 00:57:35,166 The police try to restrain him. 1123 00:57:35,333 --> 00:57:36,967 [police siren echoes] 1124 00:57:37,133 --> 00:57:41,100 He headbutts an officer, and now he's arrested. 1125 00:57:41,266 --> 00:57:42,400 [ominous chord strike] 1126 00:57:43,767 --> 00:57:46,734 I was at work in the break room during lunchtime, 1127 00:57:46,900 --> 00:57:48,800 and all of a sudden, 1128 00:57:48,967 --> 00:57:52,166 I see my brother's picture on the TV screen. 1129 00:57:52,333 --> 00:57:54,300 I'm like, "Whoa, he's been arrested." 1130 00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:58,900 I've never known Mark to be violent. 1131 00:57:59,066 --> 00:58:01,767 I couldn't believe that he'd gone that far. 1132 00:58:01,934 --> 00:58:02,967 That was a lot. 1133 00:58:02,967 --> 00:58:06,200 He tells police that he has been watching Miley 1134 00:58:06,367 --> 00:58:07,567 from the street. 1135 00:58:08,867 --> 00:58:11,166 He's seen her on the balcony of her hotel, 1136 00:58:13,500 --> 00:58:15,867 and he tells the police that no one will be able to 1137 00:58:15,867 --> 00:58:17,266 keep them apart. 1138 00:58:18,500 --> 00:58:21,000 Mark also promised the arresting officer that 1139 00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:24,867 he would get an invitation to his and Miley's wedding. 1140 00:58:25,033 --> 00:58:29,000 Because of the head-butting, he was charged with 1141 00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:32,667 disorderly conduct, essentially, and he was put in jail 1142 00:58:32,667 --> 00:58:35,166 but released after one day because of overcrowding 1143 00:58:35,166 --> 00:58:37,667 and told not to come back to Tybee Island. 1144 00:58:37,667 --> 00:58:39,800 So I didn't think a whole lot about it. 1145 00:58:39,967 --> 00:58:41,200 I'm thinking, "He's out. 1146 00:58:41,367 --> 00:58:43,367 OK, maybe he's learned his lesson," 1147 00:58:43,367 --> 00:58:45,200 but he went back to Tybee. 1148 00:58:45,367 --> 00:58:46,800 He went back in the middle of the night. 1149 00:58:49,266 --> 00:58:51,367 He felt like he knew approximately where 1150 00:58:51,533 --> 00:58:53,767 she might be staying. -[knocking echoes] 1151 00:58:53,934 --> 00:58:57,367 He was knocking on doors trying to find out where she was. 1152 00:58:57,533 --> 00:58:59,000 [knocking echoes] 1153 00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:00,567 And somebody called security. 1154 00:59:01,867 --> 00:59:03,667 -He's arrested... -[police siren echoes] 1155 00:59:03,667 --> 00:59:06,900 ...and this time he was charged with disorderly conduct, 1156 00:59:07,066 --> 00:59:09,800 obstruction of justice, and stalking. 1157 00:59:12,266 --> 00:59:14,734 They took his computer because they felt like there 1158 00:59:14,900 --> 00:59:16,867 might have been more evidence on there, 1159 00:59:17,033 --> 00:59:20,266 because Miley was underage. 1160 00:59:20,266 --> 00:59:22,867 [Dr. Pinsky] In Mark's case, I seriously doubt this is pedophilia. 1161 00:59:22,867 --> 00:59:24,066 I think it's just delusion. 1162 00:59:24,233 --> 00:59:26,166 He doesn't even perceive that this is a teenager. 1163 00:59:26,333 --> 00:59:29,266 He doesn't see anything wrong with the whole affair. 1164 00:59:29,433 --> 00:59:32,767 And the police did have his computer, and if there was 1165 00:59:32,934 --> 00:59:34,266 any preoccupation with children, 1166 00:59:34,433 --> 00:59:37,166 it would have shown up there. -So to prove a stalking case, 1167 00:59:37,166 --> 00:59:39,500 there's like two elements that I find to be kind of difficult. 1168 00:59:39,667 --> 00:59:41,300 You have to prove a course of conduct, right? 1169 00:59:41,467 --> 00:59:44,467 So there has to be more than one incident, essentially. 1170 00:59:44,634 --> 00:59:47,266 And so, you know, it becomes really hard 1171 00:59:47,266 --> 00:59:49,467 because, you know, is two times enough? 1172 00:59:49,467 --> 00:59:52,000 Do we have to wait for something terrible to happen? 1173 00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:53,266 [reporters, yelling] Miley! 1174 00:59:53,433 --> 00:59:55,166 [Larilyn] Mark saw her in New York, 1175 00:59:56,200 --> 00:59:57,867 and he saw her at the filming, 1176 00:59:58,967 --> 01:00:02,266 and the concert. They're all public places. 1177 01:00:02,433 --> 01:00:03,600 You know, he didn't try to hurt her. 1178 01:00:03,767 --> 01:00:06,000 So the question becomes, how do you distinguish sort of 1179 01:00:06,166 --> 01:00:09,867 normal fan behavior versus Mark's behavior? 1180 01:00:10,033 --> 01:00:12,767 Then you have to prove that the defendant's conduct caused 1181 01:00:12,767 --> 01:00:14,100 reasonable fear to the person. 1182 01:00:14,100 --> 01:00:16,567 And it's like, does this actual person who this behavior is 1183 01:00:16,734 --> 01:00:18,467 being done to, are they afraid? 1184 01:00:19,667 --> 01:00:22,367 [Larilyn] When Mark was in court, I remember a time 1185 01:00:22,533 --> 01:00:27,667 where the lawyer asked if Miley was aware of Mark, if she knew him, 1186 01:00:27,834 --> 01:00:31,166 and the lawyer said, "No, she's not aware of him." 1187 01:00:31,166 --> 01:00:34,200 There had never been any contact with her. 1188 01:00:34,367 --> 01:00:37,367 I think the closest he got was the book signing. 1189 01:00:37,533 --> 01:00:38,900 [Dr. Pinsky] In my experience, celebrities usually don't know 1190 01:00:39,066 --> 01:00:40,900 they're being stalked, 1191 01:00:41,066 --> 01:00:44,367 and so one of the downsides is that when this problem comes to 1192 01:00:44,533 --> 01:00:47,367 the legal system, when it goes to court, the celebrity is 1193 01:00:47,533 --> 01:00:50,000 not able to honestly say, "I was afraid for my life 1194 01:00:50,166 --> 01:00:51,600 because I just didn't know." 1195 01:00:51,767 --> 01:00:53,667 So eventually a plea deal is made. 1196 01:00:53,834 --> 01:00:57,000 The attempted stalking is thrown out. 1197 01:00:57,000 --> 01:01:01,100 [Larilyn] Mark ended up pleading guilty to obstruction of justice 1198 01:01:01,100 --> 01:01:02,967 and disorderly conduct. 1199 01:01:04,100 --> 01:01:07,467 Mark got 24 months of probation and he was to get 1200 01:01:07,467 --> 01:01:09,400 a mental health assessment as well. 1201 01:01:09,567 --> 01:01:12,967 [Larilyn] He later was diagnosed with delusional disorder, 1202 01:01:13,133 --> 01:01:15,467 and he didn't agree with their diagnosis. 1203 01:01:15,467 --> 01:01:17,767 He refuses all psychiatric care during that time and is 1204 01:01:17,934 --> 01:01:19,967 essentially just checking in with a parole officer 1205 01:01:20,133 --> 01:01:22,000 and moves back in with his sister. 1206 01:01:22,166 --> 01:01:25,000 He stayed with me for about three months, and I helped him 1207 01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:28,533 find a place, and then he ended up moving to another state. 1208 01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:32,767 These days, I don't have a whole lot 1209 01:01:32,767 --> 01:01:34,266 of contact with him. 1210 01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:38,100 [Dr. Pinsky] The incident between Mark and Miley Cyrus happened 1211 01:01:38,266 --> 01:01:41,200 over a decade ago now. He's now in his late 60s. 1212 01:01:41,367 --> 01:01:43,800 He's living alone in a trailer. 1213 01:01:43,967 --> 01:01:46,000 He does little odd jobs on the side. 1214 01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:48,500 He seems to be pretty happy just by himself. 1215 01:01:48,667 --> 01:01:51,066 Makes music and wears crystals. 1216 01:01:51,233 --> 01:01:53,200 [Dr. Pinsky] According to Mark McLeod's sister, he is 1217 01:01:53,367 --> 01:01:55,867 no longer pursuing Miley Cyrus. 1218 01:01:55,867 --> 01:01:59,200 Certainly it's difficult for a family member to identify 1219 01:01:59,367 --> 01:02:01,767 stalking in somebody who appears just to be 1220 01:02:01,767 --> 01:02:03,667 an over-the-top fan. 1221 01:02:03,834 --> 01:02:04,867 We all have a certain amount of denial 1222 01:02:05,033 --> 01:02:06,567 in our close relationships, 1223 01:02:06,567 --> 01:02:08,867 and we might not see some of those warning signs 1224 01:02:08,867 --> 01:02:12,467 where it's crossing over into trouble. 1225 01:02:12,634 --> 01:02:15,800 Another example of this is what happened with Eric Swarbrick 1226 01:02:15,967 --> 01:02:17,800 and his obsession with Taylor Swift. 1227 01:02:24,166 --> 01:02:27,367 [Matthew] My brother believed Taylor Swift was his soulmate 1228 01:02:27,367 --> 01:02:30,200 and got out of hand. 1229 01:02:30,367 --> 01:02:34,900 He wrote 40 letters to Taylor Swift back in 2018. 1230 01:02:35,066 --> 01:02:39,266 The first one is not threatening, just strange. 1231 01:02:39,266 --> 01:02:43,467 But just a few months later, one of his letters references, 1232 01:02:43,467 --> 01:02:46,667 "I'll have one goal in mind, to push Taylor to kill herself 1233 01:02:46,667 --> 01:02:49,000 for knowingly abandoning me to my mother." 1234 01:02:50,767 --> 01:02:52,567 [Dr. Pinsky] Eric's letters become more bizarre. 1235 01:02:52,734 --> 01:02:54,266 He'd become more sexually aggressive. 1236 01:02:54,433 --> 01:02:56,000 He starts threatening in those letters. 1237 01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:58,567 He starts delivering them personally to people 1238 01:02:58,567 --> 01:03:01,867 at the record label, including comments like, 1239 01:03:01,867 --> 01:03:03,900 "I'm taking my gloves off. 1240 01:03:04,066 --> 01:03:06,600 "How am I explain to you that no matter how much you'll wish 1241 01:03:06,767 --> 01:03:09,667 "you could stop me, you won't be able to. 1242 01:03:09,834 --> 01:03:13,767 I'll be the cultural sword that runs through her heart." 1243 01:03:13,767 --> 01:03:16,166 In another letter to the record label, 1244 01:03:16,166 --> 01:03:18,066 he's saying, "Give her my letters 1245 01:03:18,233 --> 01:03:19,767 "or I'm gonna kill myself. 1246 01:03:19,767 --> 01:03:22,266 And I'm also gonna kill her, by the way." 1247 01:03:24,734 --> 01:03:28,066 [Scaachi] So three times, Eric drove from Texas to Nashville 1248 01:03:28,233 --> 01:03:30,567 to personally deliver these letters. 1249 01:03:30,734 --> 01:03:33,867 And at that point, it became a federal offense 1250 01:03:34,033 --> 01:03:36,000 because it was across state lines. 1251 01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:38,867 [Dr. Pinsky] On August 2nd, 2018, it is his third attempt to get 1252 01:03:38,867 --> 01:03:41,367 into the label office, and at that point, he's arrested 1253 01:03:41,533 --> 01:03:43,400 by the Nashville police. 1254 01:03:43,567 --> 01:03:46,900 He was eventually charged with interstate stalking and sending 1255 01:03:47,066 --> 01:03:49,500 interstate communication with the intent to threaten. 1256 01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:53,767 [Dr. Pinsky] We've got two cases of alleged stalking 1257 01:03:54,867 --> 01:03:56,967 with two very different legal outcomes, 1258 01:03:58,100 --> 01:04:01,100 which shows how challenging it is to legally define 1259 01:04:01,266 --> 01:04:02,667 what stalking is. 1260 01:04:04,166 --> 01:04:06,400 I'm also well aware that there are certain jurisdictions that 1261 01:04:06,567 --> 01:04:09,967 still do not have stalking laws, so this behavior still 1262 01:04:10,133 --> 01:04:14,367 continues to exist without any sort of legal repercussions. 1263 01:04:14,367 --> 01:04:16,600 Like in Vegas, I mean, if you text message somebody 1264 01:04:16,767 --> 01:04:20,567 a threat, there's no real statute for that. 1265 01:04:20,734 --> 01:04:24,667 Now there's a statute on the federal side that would apply. 1266 01:04:24,667 --> 01:04:27,567 [Matthew] I definitely didn't know he had been visiting her office 1267 01:04:27,567 --> 01:04:29,367 and that he wrote 40 letters. 1268 01:04:31,100 --> 01:04:33,467 In my family growing up, Eric spent a lot of time 1269 01:04:33,634 --> 01:04:35,900 with friends in high school. He was popular. 1270 01:04:36,066 --> 01:04:38,400 He led worship. He played guitar. 1271 01:04:38,567 --> 01:04:41,100 He was very outgoing. 1272 01:04:41,100 --> 01:04:43,200 I didn't see any signs at all in Eric. 1273 01:04:43,367 --> 01:04:46,467 There was nothing that was a red flag, 1274 01:04:46,467 --> 01:04:51,266 but then Eric started college. He didn't know a lot of people. 1275 01:04:51,266 --> 01:04:55,100 I felt like he started spending more time by himself, 1276 01:04:55,266 --> 01:04:57,734 and some of the isolation eventually got to him. 1277 01:04:59,667 --> 01:05:04,767 When he's 25 and looking at graduating college, Eric sent 1278 01:05:04,767 --> 01:05:05,967 a series of tweets. 1279 01:05:07,266 --> 01:05:10,166 The tweets referenced a soulmate. 1280 01:05:10,333 --> 01:05:14,767 It did not reference anybody in particular, but it was not 1281 01:05:14,934 --> 01:05:17,900 something that, like, a normal person would write. 1282 01:05:18,066 --> 01:05:22,166 It basically referenced being a prophet of God on the verge 1283 01:05:22,333 --> 01:05:24,400 of becoming the Antichrist, 1284 01:05:24,567 --> 01:05:27,867 and I remember feeling very desperate because we knew 1285 01:05:27,867 --> 01:05:30,667 he needed help, and we had absolutely no idea 1286 01:05:30,667 --> 01:05:32,000 what we could do. 1287 01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:35,767 I talked to Eric about it, 1288 01:05:36,667 --> 01:05:40,066 and he apologized for how they came off. 1289 01:05:40,233 --> 01:05:44,000 He deleted them, and as I talked to people about trying 1290 01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:47,367 to get him help, I know it was a very difficult thing 1291 01:05:47,367 --> 01:05:51,000 because there's no laws or systems for what you do 1292 01:05:51,000 --> 01:05:52,367 when that's happening. 1293 01:05:57,200 --> 01:06:01,000 I remember wishing there was a hotline that I could call, 1294 01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:03,667 and really just being helpless and not knowing what to do 1295 01:06:03,834 --> 01:06:05,800 was the worst part. 1296 01:06:05,967 --> 01:06:07,967 [somber music plays] 1297 01:06:09,567 --> 01:06:12,500 As a result of that visit to the record label, he's put 1298 01:06:12,667 --> 01:06:16,567 in prison for 30 months, and then he's put into mandated care, 1299 01:06:16,734 --> 01:06:19,900 mandated treatment. -It was sad. 1300 01:06:20,066 --> 01:06:21,233 It was depressing. 1301 01:06:21,233 --> 01:06:23,734 There's some people that need punishment and some people 1302 01:06:23,900 --> 01:06:25,500 that need treatment. 1303 01:06:25,667 --> 01:06:29,367 I certainly wish he was taken to a mental health hospital 1304 01:06:29,533 --> 01:06:30,767 earlier than they did. 1305 01:06:32,367 --> 01:06:36,166 After prison, he was seeing a psychiatrist, 1306 01:06:36,166 --> 01:06:40,467 and slowly, he was starting to become his old self 1307 01:06:40,467 --> 01:06:41,800 in a lot of ways. 1308 01:06:41,967 --> 01:06:43,500 We started hanging out every Tuesday. 1309 01:06:43,667 --> 01:06:47,467 We'd go get tacos together, bring them over to our house. 1310 01:06:47,634 --> 01:06:51,100 He was very playful and interactive with the kids. 1311 01:06:51,100 --> 01:06:53,500 [Dr. Pinsky] Eric Swarbrick is an example of how it can work. 1312 01:06:53,667 --> 01:06:55,300 He got care. He's doing fine. 1313 01:06:55,467 --> 01:06:58,000 Now he lives independently. He's not isolating. 1314 01:06:58,166 --> 01:07:00,367 He's with his family, and his symptoms are 1315 01:07:00,533 --> 01:07:01,967 completely under control. 1316 01:07:03,467 --> 01:07:05,867 It's just the way the courts deal with mental illness is 1317 01:07:06,033 --> 01:07:07,500 just the oddest thing to me. 1318 01:07:07,667 --> 01:07:09,667 There's something called assisted outpatient treatment 1319 01:07:09,667 --> 01:07:13,734 that some courts mandate for people with inappropriate 1320 01:07:13,900 --> 01:07:15,600 behavior because of mental illness, 1321 01:07:15,767 --> 01:07:18,100 and the outcomes are exceptionally good, 1322 01:07:18,100 --> 01:07:21,900 and the fact that most or not all courts do that is 1323 01:07:22,066 --> 01:07:23,767 profoundly disturbing to me, 1324 01:07:23,767 --> 01:07:25,667 and that's common throughout the land. 1325 01:07:27,667 --> 01:07:29,266 -[fan] Can I get a picture? -[Taylor] Of course. 1326 01:07:29,266 --> 01:07:32,200 [Dr. Pinsky] That gets into another dynamic that many people don't realize. 1327 01:07:32,367 --> 01:07:35,967 That in these dangerous obsessions, it's not just about 1328 01:07:36,133 --> 01:07:37,567 the celebrities and the stalkers. 1329 01:07:37,567 --> 01:07:41,066 There's a third issue, flaws in the law. 1330 01:07:42,467 --> 01:07:44,266 [interviewer] Has there been a negative side at all 1331 01:07:44,266 --> 01:07:47,367 to your success? -Um... 1332 01:07:47,533 --> 01:07:50,066 There's a negative side to everything we do in life. 1333 01:07:50,233 --> 01:07:52,266 You know, with all of the good stuff, there has to be 1334 01:07:52,433 --> 01:07:54,000 some bad stuff going on. 1335 01:07:55,367 --> 01:07:58,900 [Ashanti] In my situation, he was convicted, 1336 01:07:59,066 --> 01:08:01,734 and we were hoping and praying that it was done. 1337 01:08:01,900 --> 01:08:03,133 [gavel clacks twice] 1338 01:08:03,300 --> 01:08:07,567 We thought that that was gonna be it, but unfortunately, 1339 01:08:07,734 --> 01:08:09,300 it kind of kept going on and on. 1340 01:08:11,467 --> 01:08:16,500 [Dr. Pinsky] So in 2009, Ashanti's stalker goes to prison for two years, 1341 01:08:16,667 --> 01:08:18,667 but he's released a year later with a court order to 1342 01:08:18,667 --> 01:08:22,000 no longer contact Ashanti's family. 1343 01:08:22,000 --> 01:08:24,300 [Traci] Well, in court, unfortunately, juries are 1344 01:08:24,467 --> 01:08:28,000 more inclined to give a heavier sentence, 1345 01:08:28,000 --> 01:08:30,800 if, like, you know, somebody breaks into your home, 1346 01:08:30,967 --> 01:08:33,467 or somebody holds a gun to your head, or somebody, 1347 01:08:33,467 --> 01:08:37,467 you know, physically harms you, but with stalking, you know, 1348 01:08:37,467 --> 01:08:39,266 if you haven't experienced it, like, it'd be a little bit 1349 01:08:39,433 --> 01:08:42,800 difficult to wrap your head around how much damage is done. 1350 01:08:43,900 --> 01:08:47,166 Our victims usually all have PTSD. 1351 01:08:47,166 --> 01:08:48,300 [Ashanti] We have extra security. 1352 01:08:48,300 --> 01:08:51,467 I did, like, an appearance in Chicago a few nights ago, 1353 01:08:51,634 --> 01:08:53,467 and we had to have, like, three armed guys 1354 01:08:53,467 --> 01:08:56,166 because the stalker's originally from Chicago. 1355 01:08:56,333 --> 01:08:59,567 -So, you know, just... -[Ashanti] It changed my life. 1356 01:09:00,867 --> 01:09:02,767 Is he gonna come to the sign-in? 1357 01:09:02,767 --> 01:09:06,266 Is he gonna be at the show? Is he gonna be at the airport? 1358 01:09:06,266 --> 01:09:08,200 Is he gonna be at the hotel? 1359 01:09:08,367 --> 01:09:10,400 Not a -- not a good feeling. 1360 01:09:12,867 --> 01:09:14,767 [Dr. Pinsky] Despite the previous conviction, 1361 01:09:14,767 --> 01:09:17,367 he continues to stalk her. 1362 01:09:17,367 --> 01:09:20,667 He takes a picture with Ashanti's little sister. 1363 01:09:20,834 --> 01:09:25,100 He kind of popped out at an event that my sister had. 1364 01:09:25,100 --> 01:09:28,066 [Dr. Pinsky] He also tweets Ashanti, which is a violation of 1365 01:09:28,233 --> 01:09:29,867 his restraining order. 1366 01:09:30,033 --> 01:09:33,000 In 2014, he goes back to trial for stalking, 1367 01:09:33,166 --> 01:09:36,100 aggravated harassment, and contempt of court, 1368 01:09:36,100 --> 01:09:37,600 and other charges. 1369 01:09:37,767 --> 01:09:41,867 This time, Ashanti's stalker represents himself and even 1370 01:09:41,867 --> 01:09:44,867 gets to cross-examine Ashanti when she takes the stand. 1371 01:09:45,033 --> 01:09:46,100 [suspenseful chord strike] 1372 01:09:46,100 --> 01:09:47,667 [Ashanti] It's really weird. 1373 01:09:47,667 --> 01:09:50,567 It's kind of like, to get what you want done, 1374 01:09:52,000 --> 01:09:55,300 he gets what he wants, which is to be in your presence. 1375 01:09:55,467 --> 01:09:56,667 And it's like, why? 1376 01:09:58,867 --> 01:10:01,800 A juror becomes ill during the trial, and so it is 1377 01:10:01,967 --> 01:10:03,066 called a mistrial. 1378 01:10:04,467 --> 01:10:07,166 So the case is retried two years later, and that 1379 01:10:07,166 --> 01:10:09,767 ends in a jury deadlock. 1380 01:10:09,767 --> 01:10:13,000 So there end up being three additional trials in the height 1381 01:10:13,166 --> 01:10:16,100 of my career and having to go back and forth to court. 1382 01:10:18,567 --> 01:10:21,200 And actually showing up and sitting there and sitting 1383 01:10:21,367 --> 01:10:24,767 through all of that... is unsettling. 1384 01:10:25,734 --> 01:10:27,200 It's disheartening, 1385 01:10:27,367 --> 01:10:31,000 and it makes you question, "OK, who is the victim?" 1386 01:10:31,166 --> 01:10:34,367 So after the fourth trial, when he's convicted, 1387 01:10:35,467 --> 01:10:38,266 the feeling is hope 1388 01:10:38,433 --> 01:10:40,166 that the rehabilitation happens, 1389 01:10:41,300 --> 01:10:45,467 hope that he gets the message, and hoping that 1390 01:10:45,634 --> 01:10:47,734 everything is done. 1391 01:10:47,900 --> 01:10:49,867 [ominous chord strike] 1392 01:10:58,467 --> 01:11:00,767 [Dr. Pinsky] With singer Coles Walen, her case rises 1393 01:11:00,767 --> 01:11:02,100 to a different level. 1394 01:11:03,767 --> 01:11:07,100 [Coles] His maximum sentence was unfortunately not that long. 1395 01:11:08,600 --> 01:11:11,667 So he was released from prison a few years after he went. 1396 01:11:13,900 --> 01:11:16,567 I tried to keep performing and found that 1397 01:11:16,567 --> 01:11:19,066 I was still terrified. 1398 01:11:20,300 --> 01:11:21,867 I started to have panic attacks, 1399 01:11:23,567 --> 01:11:27,734 and I just felt I'm not gonna ever achieve full recovery 1400 01:11:27,900 --> 01:11:29,867 if I don't put some physical distance between me 1401 01:11:30,033 --> 01:11:31,300 and where this all happened. 1402 01:11:32,867 --> 01:11:34,467 I left the state of Colorado, 1403 01:11:35,367 --> 01:11:36,500 which was really difficult for me. 1404 01:11:36,667 --> 01:11:38,166 My whole family is there. 1405 01:11:38,166 --> 01:11:40,166 I moved to the East Coast. 1406 01:11:42,100 --> 01:11:47,100 After years of hard work on trying to identify 1407 01:11:47,100 --> 01:11:49,266 what had happened to me, 1408 01:11:49,266 --> 01:11:51,734 I met a great partner, I get married, 1409 01:11:52,900 --> 01:11:56,100 and finally I'm starting to feel some... 1410 01:11:56,100 --> 01:12:00,200 some happiness on stage in these smaller venues 1411 01:12:00,367 --> 01:12:03,266 where I feel really comfortable, and I... 1412 01:12:05,166 --> 01:12:06,967 feel like I'm healing. 1413 01:12:07,133 --> 01:12:12,567 But I was totally unprepared for what is going to happen next. 1414 01:12:12,567 --> 01:12:14,667 [ominous chord strike] 1415 01:12:20,367 --> 01:12:23,567 It's just like a regular Saturday, and I'm at home, 1416 01:12:24,667 --> 01:12:26,000 and this Google alert pops up. 1417 01:12:26,166 --> 01:12:27,400 [phone bloops] 1418 01:12:27,400 --> 01:12:31,166 And it says, "Stalking Case Going to the US Supreme Court." 1419 01:12:31,333 --> 01:12:32,867 It has my name in it. 1420 01:12:33,033 --> 01:12:35,600 [suspenseful music builds] 1421 01:12:35,767 --> 01:12:37,100 And I'm like, "What is this?" 1422 01:12:38,667 --> 01:12:41,166 And it turns out that... 1423 01:12:42,266 --> 01:12:44,767 he's appealing it to the United States Supreme Court. 1424 01:12:44,767 --> 01:12:46,867 [suspenseful chord strike] 1425 01:12:51,100 --> 01:12:53,300 [Dr. Pinsky] By 2023, seven years after his trial, 1426 01:12:53,467 --> 01:12:56,100 Billy Ray Counterman's sentence was over, 1427 01:12:56,100 --> 01:13:00,300 but it turns out, he is now determined to clear his name. 1428 01:13:00,467 --> 01:13:02,767 [Coles] It turns out that another lawyer has gotten a hold 1429 01:13:02,934 --> 01:13:07,066 of this case and he's trying to argue that the communications 1430 01:13:07,233 --> 01:13:09,467 to me were protected under the First Amendment right 1431 01:13:09,467 --> 01:13:11,100 to free speech, 1432 01:13:11,266 --> 01:13:13,567 and the Supreme Court has actually agreed 1433 01:13:13,567 --> 01:13:15,266 to hear this case. 1434 01:13:17,266 --> 01:13:18,467 I was just shocked. 1435 01:13:18,467 --> 01:13:22,300 I was totally shocked that this was still 1436 01:13:22,467 --> 01:13:25,266 ongoing, that there could be any question of whether or not 1437 01:13:25,266 --> 01:13:27,834 this guilty verdict was actually able to stand. 1438 01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:32,066 All of a sudden, Coles is now the face of what's going to be 1439 01:13:32,233 --> 01:13:35,266 a precedent-setting case for the enforcement of 1440 01:13:35,433 --> 01:13:39,400 stalking laws, not just in her county in Colorado, 1441 01:13:39,567 --> 01:13:41,166 but all over the country. 1442 01:13:41,333 --> 01:13:44,567 What seemed to have been a done deal that had been decided 1443 01:13:44,734 --> 01:13:48,100 by a jury in Colorado after hearing all the evidence was 1444 01:13:48,100 --> 01:13:51,867 now continuing to be reviewed by nine justices 1445 01:13:51,867 --> 01:13:53,967 on the United States Supreme Court. 1446 01:13:56,066 --> 01:13:58,000 [Coles] And I was actually very surprised because some 1447 01:13:58,000 --> 01:14:01,367 organizations that I actually am a fan of were on the side 1448 01:14:01,533 --> 01:14:04,767 of the defendant, the ACLU is one of them. 1449 01:14:04,934 --> 01:14:07,166 A lawyer told me that 1450 01:14:07,333 --> 01:14:10,900 a civil rights, like, law think tank had been looking for 1451 01:14:11,066 --> 01:14:15,066 a case where the boundaries might be blurred between speech 1452 01:14:15,233 --> 01:14:18,000 and stalking, where there was not any real evidence in 1453 01:14:18,000 --> 01:14:22,600 the case that proved that there was physical contact between 1454 01:14:22,767 --> 01:14:26,467 the victim and the stalker, that it had all happened 1455 01:14:26,634 --> 01:14:30,667 through speech of some kind. They found mine, 1456 01:14:30,667 --> 01:14:34,166 and they had been working on it for a few years 1457 01:14:34,166 --> 01:14:37,000 before they were able to get the Supreme Court to listen 1458 01:14:37,000 --> 01:14:38,567 to the case. 1459 01:14:38,734 --> 01:14:41,500 [Paul] The Supreme Court doesn't allow cameras in the courtroom, 1460 01:14:41,667 --> 01:14:44,367 but they do now have an audio feed where you can 1461 01:14:44,533 --> 01:14:45,867 listen to what's going on. 1462 01:14:45,867 --> 01:14:49,767 [court official] You'll hear argument this morning, case 22-138, 1463 01:14:49,767 --> 01:14:51,767 Counterman v. Colorado. 1464 01:14:51,767 --> 01:14:54,567 This case was Counterman v. Colorado, 1465 01:14:54,567 --> 01:14:57,266 and you can see immediately that Coles wasn't even 1466 01:14:57,266 --> 01:14:59,400 a party to the case. 1467 01:14:59,567 --> 01:15:01,400 Victims, they're not even represented. 1468 01:15:13,000 --> 01:15:15,367 The way that my case was tried in the state of Colorado was 1469 01:15:15,533 --> 01:15:18,467 tried under what they call an objective standard, 1470 01:15:18,634 --> 01:15:21,000 which means that if a reasonable person would 1471 01:15:21,166 --> 01:15:24,300 consider the messages that were sent to them threatening, 1472 01:15:24,467 --> 01:15:27,600 that's enough to convict someone of stalking. 1473 01:15:27,767 --> 01:15:31,266 What they wanted the Supreme Court to change that to 1474 01:15:31,433 --> 01:15:34,467 was that it's not enough that the person who's receiving 1475 01:15:34,634 --> 01:15:37,467 the messages considers them threatening, you have to be 1476 01:15:37,467 --> 01:15:40,767 able to prove that the person sending the messages actually 1477 01:15:40,934 --> 01:15:42,767 intended for them to be threatening. 1478 01:15:55,266 --> 01:15:58,400 So this could be a problem. 1479 01:15:58,567 --> 01:16:02,400 Oftentimes when people are delusional, what the stalker is 1480 01:16:02,567 --> 01:16:05,834 telling themselves can be various things, including, 1481 01:16:06,000 --> 01:16:08,100 "I'm just trying to get to you to ask you to marry me, 1482 01:16:08,100 --> 01:16:10,667 or I'm just trying to protect you." 1483 01:16:10,667 --> 01:16:12,600 It's all distortion. 1484 01:16:12,767 --> 01:16:14,000 It's all bullshit. 1485 01:16:14,166 --> 01:16:17,367 And so these delusional stalkers may not intend to be 1486 01:16:17,367 --> 01:16:20,567 threatening, even though they often are, or at least 1487 01:16:20,567 --> 01:16:22,567 they can be perceived that way. 1488 01:16:22,734 --> 01:16:25,066 And just like in the case of Rebecca Schaefer's stalker, 1489 01:16:25,233 --> 01:16:29,734 it could be just yet more time before this thing goes too far 1490 01:16:29,900 --> 01:16:32,367 and become violent very, very easily. 1491 01:16:50,900 --> 01:16:52,266 I am... 1492 01:16:53,166 --> 01:16:57,900 totally shocked by what I am hearing 1493 01:16:58,066 --> 01:17:01,367 because they're putting forward these metaphorical examples of 1494 01:17:01,533 --> 01:17:04,166 situations that they're trying to balance against the facts of 1495 01:17:04,166 --> 01:17:05,734 the case that I'm involved in 1496 01:17:06,900 --> 01:17:09,000 to try to make these arguments. 1497 01:17:19,100 --> 01:17:20,667 Are they serious right now? 1498 01:17:22,000 --> 01:17:25,900 I could not believe the way they were treating this issue. 1499 01:17:26,066 --> 01:17:27,367 I could not believe it. 1500 01:17:27,367 --> 01:17:30,000 The Colorado Attorney General's office was writing a very 1501 01:17:30,166 --> 01:17:32,567 powerful brief on the legal side of the case. 1502 01:17:45,500 --> 01:17:49,300 [Weiser continues] It would also allow devious stalkers to escape 1503 01:17:49,467 --> 01:17:52,767 accountability by insisting that they meant nothing 1504 01:17:52,934 --> 01:17:54,667 by their harmful statements. 1505 01:18:06,000 --> 01:18:08,767 They are picking out one message here 1506 01:18:08,767 --> 01:18:10,567 and one message there. 1507 01:18:10,734 --> 01:18:13,000 Like, this one doesn't seem that threatening. 1508 01:18:29,600 --> 01:18:33,100 There is a lot of laughter coming from the bench. 1509 01:18:33,100 --> 01:18:35,200 [laughter] 1510 01:18:35,367 --> 01:18:37,567 "I can't promise I haven't said that sometimes. 1511 01:18:37,734 --> 01:18:39,266 Ha ha ha." 1512 01:18:39,266 --> 01:18:41,667 Have you said it to somebody that was a stranger that you'd 1513 01:18:41,834 --> 01:18:46,266 also been messaging for years, following you around, never answered? 1514 01:19:20,300 --> 01:19:22,266 Then the hearing goes on. 1515 01:19:41,166 --> 01:19:43,767 And finally, the hearing wraps up. 1516 01:19:43,934 --> 01:19:45,767 [man] Thank you, counsel. The case is submitted. 1517 01:19:49,467 --> 01:19:53,734 It's pretty obvious to tell that they were already leaning 1518 01:19:53,900 --> 01:19:55,667 in one direction. 1519 01:19:55,667 --> 01:19:57,266 But I still hoped. 1520 01:19:57,266 --> 01:20:00,667 I was holding out hope that they would 1521 01:20:00,834 --> 01:20:02,567 uphold this conviction. 1522 01:20:02,734 --> 01:20:06,100 Ultimately, the Supreme Court released its decision. 1523 01:20:06,100 --> 01:20:08,667 There were seven votes for Counterman 1524 01:20:08,667 --> 01:20:11,834 and two votes for Colorado. 1525 01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:14,300 The Supreme Court concluded that the procedures that were 1526 01:20:14,467 --> 01:20:17,100 used in the case violated the First Amendment. 1527 01:20:22,367 --> 01:20:25,166 [reporter] The Supreme Court said that a conviction for online threats 1528 01:20:25,333 --> 01:20:27,100 violated the First Amendment. 1529 01:20:27,100 --> 01:20:29,367 I think the Supreme Court got this one wrong, too. 1530 01:20:29,533 --> 01:20:31,667 This is a super messy case. 1531 01:20:31,834 --> 01:20:34,166 Whole lot of threatening speech 1532 01:20:34,333 --> 01:20:35,834 now being protected. 1533 01:20:36,000 --> 01:20:39,767 So I guess you're allowed to harass someone if you can say 1534 01:20:39,934 --> 01:20:41,867 that you didn't know you were being threatening? 1535 01:20:48,367 --> 01:20:49,600 [Coles] And I was, um... 1536 01:20:51,467 --> 01:20:53,266 just... 1537 01:20:53,433 --> 01:20:54,567 so sad. 1538 01:20:56,100 --> 01:20:58,367 Because I knew at that point that it wasn't just me. 1539 01:20:59,967 --> 01:21:03,367 Um, that there would be a lot of victims who had gone through 1540 01:21:03,533 --> 01:21:06,266 something similar to what I had been through, 1541 01:21:06,266 --> 01:21:09,166 that would also have their convictions overturned. 1542 01:21:10,867 --> 01:21:12,266 That was really sad. 1543 01:21:14,567 --> 01:21:17,400 Unfortunately, I think the Supreme Court's decision 1544 01:21:17,567 --> 01:21:21,266 opens the doors for delusional stalkers, because maybe 1545 01:21:21,266 --> 01:21:25,166 they are so out of touch with reality that they're not 1546 01:21:25,166 --> 01:21:28,100 thinking through carefully what they're doing. 1547 01:21:28,266 --> 01:21:31,166 Those people are almost in some ways more dangerous 1548 01:21:31,333 --> 01:21:33,500 than someone who is thinking rationally, 1549 01:21:33,667 --> 01:21:35,867 and yet the Supreme Court's decision makes it difficult 1550 01:21:35,867 --> 01:21:39,767 for prosecutors to prosecute those kinds of cases. 1551 01:21:39,767 --> 01:21:42,767 So for Counterman, after years of litigation, 1552 01:21:42,934 --> 01:21:44,600 the conviction was undone. 1553 01:21:46,667 --> 01:21:49,967 The big takeaway from these stories is that the legal 1554 01:21:50,133 --> 01:21:55,000 system, in terms of being able to help and identify people 1555 01:21:55,166 --> 01:21:58,934 that have not yet perpetrated, needs a complete revamp. 1556 01:22:01,467 --> 01:22:04,367 I think one of the biggest problems that I've seen in 1557 01:22:04,367 --> 01:22:06,834 probably the last five years is that the laws are not 1558 01:22:07,000 --> 01:22:08,400 keeping up with the technology. 1559 01:22:10,667 --> 01:22:12,867 You know, a lot of times it's over internet, 1560 01:22:13,033 --> 01:22:16,000 it's over social media, it's over text message, 1561 01:22:16,000 --> 01:22:19,100 and a lot of times that is not applicable to the law. 1562 01:22:21,567 --> 01:22:24,900 [Scaachi] I think the courts still operate in a really outdated 1563 01:22:25,066 --> 01:22:27,500 mode of believing that anything that happens on the internet is 1564 01:22:27,667 --> 01:22:30,367 not tangible and therefore is not a real threat. 1565 01:22:30,367 --> 01:22:32,767 -[fan] Miley! -[indistinct chatter] 1566 01:22:32,767 --> 01:22:35,367 [Scaachi] But we see it all the time, I mean, we see how 1567 01:22:35,367 --> 01:22:38,000 online threats manifest in reality. 1568 01:22:40,367 --> 01:22:43,400 I feel like it is really important to create awareness 1569 01:22:43,567 --> 01:22:45,567 surrounding this entire topic. 1570 01:22:45,567 --> 01:22:47,467 -Calm down. -Back up. 1571 01:22:47,634 --> 01:22:50,200 [Ashanti] You can't cross the line with people. 1572 01:22:50,367 --> 01:22:53,266 We need to make this change and make that happen and get 1573 01:22:53,266 --> 01:22:55,967 your resources together and speak out.