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[ choir vocalizing ]
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♪♪
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-These are stories
of the saints.
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♪♪
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♪♪
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♪♪
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♪♪
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[ singing in latin ]
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Thomas becket
was consecrated as archbishop
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Of canterbury in 1162.
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This was a position second
only in power to the king.
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♪♪
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But in the ceremony,
there was a pivotal moment
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When becket was called upon
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To select a random passage
from the gospels.
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Jesus cursing
the fruitless fig tree.
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-The gospel according
to saint matthew 21:19,
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"never shall fruit be born
of thee throughout eternity.
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And it was forthwith cast
into the fire."
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[ spectators murmuring ]
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-It was a troubling omen.
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♪♪
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The story of thomas becket
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Is the story of the pitched
battle between church and state
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In England,
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Of which institution would win
ultimate power over the other.
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♪♪
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-Most merciful god, forgive me
for what I'm about to do.
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-The battle over
the divine right of kings
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Lasted hundreds of years
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And left a long line of martyrs
in its wake.
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Becket was the most famous.
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So famous that henry viii tried
to strike his memory
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From every record in existence.
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Becket was the son
of fairly prosperous,
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Devoutly catholic norman
immigrants
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Who lived in
the cheapside section of london.
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He was a man of great ambition,
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Still searching
for an opportunity.
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-God.
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Come, holy spirit,
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And bring down from heaven
a ray of thy light.
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Without thy influence,
there is nothing in man
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Which is not weakness and guilt.
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Oh, cleanse that
which is sordid,
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Bend that which is stubborn.
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Guide that which is wandering.
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-At this moment,
the monarchy was in turmoil.
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When king henry I died,
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His daughter matilda
staked her claim,
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But the norman barons refused
to accept a woman on the throne,
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And they backed
her cousin stephen,
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Which led to a brutal civil war.
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And in the midst
of all this strife,
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Becket had an interview
with theobald,
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The archbishop of canterbury.
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-Have the carriers arrived?
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-They're coming, my lord.
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-I want to finish the letter
to chichester.
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-Of course.
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-That matters within your
jurisdiction should come to us.
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-Now, theobald was caught
in the middle of the conflict
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Because he'd sided with matilda.
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-I'm told you're eager to learn
and quick to speak your mind.
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-I cannot say, my lord.
That's for others to decide.
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-I have no time for modesty,
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But much need of able minds
and eloquent tongues.
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-I understand you, my lord.
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-Even a lowborn man
such as yourself,
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If he proves useful,
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Can improve his station
through our holy mother church.
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-The carriers, my lord.
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-Tomorrow we move
to my surrey estates.
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These men are for my coffers,
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Which go
wherever I go in time of war.
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-Nothing could be left to
chance, I understand.
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-We shall see.
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-Theobald was wealthy.
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He had palaces in canterbury
and rochester and southwood.
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Homes in sussex,
middlesex and surrey.
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He collected ecclesiastical fees
and tithes to the church,
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As well as feudal dues from all
the territories he controlled.
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To rise in the church
was to have real power,
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But it was a constant struggle
to hold on to that power,
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To use it not
in the interest of the crown,
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But in the interest of promoting
the teachings of jesus
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In everyday life.
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-If I had wanted the order
of service to be rearranged,
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I would have called for it!
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-The original order
of the service
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Is sanctified by ancient custom.
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-I need no reminder
from lowborn ignorant men!
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-The archbishop is well aware of
the venerable nature
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Of practice customs,
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Which is why his very...Slight
alteration in the order
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Of blessings
is founded in church precedent.
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-Where can this be found?
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-In the fourth decretum
of damasus.
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-Precisely.
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♪♪
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Ah!
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Well-played, thomas.
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-Thank you, my lord.
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-I should have castled my king.
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Another game?
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-If you wish.
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-Theobald gave some of
the money he was making
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From surrounding churches
to becket.
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And so becket became rich.
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Now, to modernize,
it might look like corruption,
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But within the world of the
church in 12th century europe,
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It was more of a necessity.
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Theobald educated him
with a tutor.
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He sent him to bologna
and other universities
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To study canon and roman law.
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Maintaining
the political balance
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Between the church and the king.
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Between defiance and compromise.
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This was a constant exercise for
theobald while stephen was king.
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Sometimes he gave stephen
what he wanted.
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Sometimes he stood firm,
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But he always walked
a political tightrope.
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In fact, theobald
went into exile more than once
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And becket made sure
that he came back safely.
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-Once you reach ostend, an
oarsman will take you to dover.
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John will have a man there who
will supply you with a horse.
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Then you'll be escorted
to canterbury and home.
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-I'll be recognized.
-There will be clothing for you.
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You'll have to arrive at night.
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-Like a thief.
-It's the safest way.
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And it's hardly even more
than three months this time.
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-Three months? Three years?
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It's a terrible thing
to have to flee your own country
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With mother church
in your hands.
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I pray it may never happen
to you.
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Come on.
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-Eventually, matilda's son,
henry, the duke of normandy,
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Arrived in England with knights
and a mercenary army
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To take up his mother's
war for the throne
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And to secure his own place as
the rightful heir to the throne.
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After nearly two decades
of destructive war,
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Neither side came out
victorious.
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Theobald and becket worked both
parties to negotiate a truce,
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Careful to avoid accusations
of treason.
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They urged king stephen to make
peace with henry and matilda.
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♪♪
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And as the brokers
of this peace,
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They took the opportunity
to cement the power
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Of the church as well.
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♪♪
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Henry was really impressed
by becket,
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And he understood that
he had played a decisive part
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In the negotiations.
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Theobald rewarded becket
for his part in the negotiations
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By elevating him to the post
of archdeacon of canterbury.
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But within 10 months, stephen
died from a sudden illness
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And henry was crowned king.
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♪♪
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-Thomas.
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-My lord.
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-Walk with me, thomas.
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How are you enjoying your work?
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-Oh, well, sir, I very much
like working for the archbishop.
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He is a dedicated man of god.
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-Mm. I hear you're
quite the chess player.
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-I enjoy the game.
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-A game of strategy.
-Entirely.
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-And cunning.
-Indeed.
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-I'm going to give you a
larger board to play on, thomas.
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I like a man of strategy
and cunning.
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I like him even better
in my court.
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♪♪
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Ah, what a beautiful day.
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-Some believe
that there was a real friendship
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Between becket and henry.
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Others differ.
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Now, the truth is
probably somewhere in
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Between the kind of friendship
you find in the business world.
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You know,
mutual warmth, affection,
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And then it can just disappear
at the drop of a hat.
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Henry made becket
his lord chancellor.
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This was the second
most powerful position
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In the government.
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But at the same time,
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Becket kept his high office
in the church
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As archdeacon of canterbury.
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-It's as I expected.
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I laid the groundwork for this
very carefully, you know.
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-I understand you.
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-That's the point.
You, of all people,
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Understand that the church is
god's instrument on earth.
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That it serves as a vital check
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On the greed and corruption
of the ground.
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That its independence and power
must be preserved at any cost.
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And to do so,
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The church needs
trustworthy eyes and ears
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At the king's court.
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00:12:30,082 --> 00:12:33,147
-Yes. Of course.
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00:12:33,249 --> 00:12:36,852
-If you prove yourself worthy,
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00:12:36,971 --> 00:12:41,941
This will be good for us
and for holy mother church.
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A steadying influence.
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00:12:48,782 --> 00:12:53,419
Thomas, I want you
to remember something.
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00:12:53,454 --> 00:12:56,186
Never trust the words
of princes or kings.
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Never.
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00:13:00,710 --> 00:13:06,314
♪♪
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00:13:06,349 --> 00:13:09,086
-Becket lived like a king.
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00:13:09,154 --> 00:13:12,319
I mean, that's what was expected
of a member of the king's court,
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00:13:12,388 --> 00:13:14,841
Especially the lord chancellor,
most of all.
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00:13:16,977 --> 00:13:19,247
He had a fleet of ships
for channel crossings,
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00:13:19,316 --> 00:13:23,647
A company of knights, an army
of servants, a private zoo.
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00:13:23,716 --> 00:13:27,719
Finest foods and wines,
kitchen staff.
212
00:13:27,821 --> 00:13:31,475
In many ways, the
lowborn norman immigrant lived
213
00:13:31,543 --> 00:13:33,675
A more lavish lifestyle
than henry.
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00:13:36,249 --> 00:13:38,680
So what did becket think?
215
00:13:38,749 --> 00:13:41,886
That he could actually answer to
both theobald and henry
216
00:13:41,988 --> 00:13:43,319
At the same time?
217
00:13:47,310 --> 00:13:49,175
When henry invaded toulouse,
218
00:13:49,210 --> 00:13:54,380
It was becket's job as lord
chancellor to finance the war.
219
00:13:54,482 --> 00:13:58,080
He levied new taxes, and
the burden fell on the church,
220
00:13:58,149 --> 00:14:03,753
On the bishops and the abbots,
including archbishop theobald.
221
00:14:03,821 --> 00:14:06,375
And becket,
as henry's enforcer,
222
00:14:06,444 --> 00:14:10,481
Just bled his old mentor dry.
223
00:14:10,549 --> 00:14:12,247
Theobald actually wrote
to becket
224
00:14:12,316 --> 00:14:13,914
And pleaded with him
225
00:14:14,016 --> 00:14:16,586
To drop the taxes
on the parishes in canterbury.
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00:14:16,655 --> 00:14:21,475
These were taxes from which
becket himself was profiting.
227
00:14:21,544 --> 00:14:23,742
Becket never even answered him.
228
00:14:23,860 --> 00:14:24,975
-[ coughs ]
229
00:14:25,044 --> 00:14:26,914
-Theobald paved the way
for becket's appointment
230
00:14:26,983 --> 00:14:32,720
As lord chancellor
because he wanted an inside man.
231
00:14:32,755 --> 00:14:37,153
So becket's reversal
is a terrible betrayal.
232
00:14:37,222 --> 00:14:39,242
-You have often been called,
233
00:14:39,310 --> 00:14:43,547
And you ought to have answered
a single summons to my side now
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00:14:43,583 --> 00:14:46,647
That I am old and ill.
235
00:14:46,716 --> 00:14:51,720
Indeed it is to be feared that
god may punish your tardiness
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00:14:51,788 --> 00:14:55,359
If you shut your ears
to the call of obedience,
237
00:14:55,377 --> 00:14:57,909
Forgetting the benefits
you have received,
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00:14:57,977 --> 00:14:59,742
And despising me,
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00:14:59,866 --> 00:15:01,981
Whom you should have
carried on your shoulders
240
00:15:02,049 --> 00:15:03,814
In my final sickness.
241
00:15:06,688 --> 00:15:09,353
-What did becket feel
in his heart?
242
00:15:09,455 --> 00:15:11,609
Was it shame?
243
00:15:11,644 --> 00:15:14,942
Was he wanting to explain
himself to theobald?
244
00:15:16,044 --> 00:15:19,681
Or did he now see himself
as henry's man?
245
00:15:20,950 --> 00:15:23,120
We can't know.
246
00:15:23,188 --> 00:15:29,209
But what we do know is that he
never saw theobald alive again.
247
00:15:29,277 --> 00:15:31,309
And the death of theobald
248
00:15:31,377 --> 00:15:35,814
Created a very convenient
opportunity, a vacuum of power
249
00:15:35,933 --> 00:15:40,053
That henry had to fill
very quickly.
250
00:15:40,122 --> 00:15:42,453
-Just look at me, my lord.
251
00:15:44,489 --> 00:15:45,975
How religious is the man
252
00:15:46,044 --> 00:15:48,225
That you want to point to
that holy office?
253
00:15:48,277 --> 00:15:49,775
-You're my man,
254
00:15:49,811 --> 00:15:53,148
And I want my man
to be archbishop of canterbury.
255
00:15:53,216 --> 00:15:55,987
-Your majesty,
256
00:15:56,055 --> 00:15:59,353
Are you truly asking me to
choose between the archbishopric
257
00:15:59,455 --> 00:16:00,853
And the chancellorship?
258
00:16:00,922 --> 00:16:03,709
-Why, the opposite.
Think of it, thomas.
259
00:16:03,778 --> 00:16:06,881
The power of the crown
and the power of the church.
260
00:16:06,950 --> 00:16:08,848
One and the same.
261
00:16:08,866 --> 00:16:12,114
Years of opposition
and bickering
262
00:16:12,183 --> 00:16:15,887
Abolished with a few drops
of holy oil upon your forehead.
263
00:16:15,955 --> 00:16:18,020
Hmm?
264
00:16:18,039 --> 00:16:20,409
-My lord,
265
00:16:20,511 --> 00:16:22,376
I must reflect
in solitude and prayer
266
00:16:22,444 --> 00:16:25,281
On this decision,
alone with my god.
267
00:16:25,350 --> 00:16:27,715
-It's fine.
268
00:16:27,783 --> 00:16:29,215
And I'll think
of the earliest possible date
269
00:16:29,289 --> 00:16:30,587
For your investiture.
270
00:16:32,522 --> 00:16:34,687
Think of it, thomas.
271
00:16:34,755 --> 00:16:37,109
Please understand...
272
00:16:37,178 --> 00:16:38,742
It's not a request.
273
00:16:45,350 --> 00:16:48,554
-I, thomas becket,
274
00:16:48,622 --> 00:16:52,676
Chosen archbishop
of the cathedral of canterbury
275
00:16:52,744 --> 00:16:56,242
And the sea of canterbury,
276
00:16:56,344 --> 00:17:00,981
Do profess and promise
all due respect and obedience
277
00:17:01,083 --> 00:17:04,654
To our holy father,
pope alexander,
278
00:17:04,756 --> 00:17:10,676
And all of his successors,
so help me god.
279
00:17:10,745 --> 00:17:14,115
Through jesus christ.
280
00:17:14,217 --> 00:17:21,187
Lord, I confess my weakness
for the things of this world.
281
00:17:21,256 --> 00:17:26,509
The things, so many things.
282
00:17:26,578 --> 00:17:28,676
And I ask for your guidance.
283
00:17:31,450 --> 00:17:33,248
What must I do, lord?
284
00:17:35,284 --> 00:17:41,087
I know that my responsibility is
to holy mother church,
285
00:17:41,156 --> 00:17:43,476
To her protection.
286
00:17:43,578 --> 00:17:46,176
So what must I do?
287
00:17:46,245 --> 00:17:51,515
I pray that you allow
me to walk in your way.
288
00:17:51,584 --> 00:17:53,254
[ singing in latin ]
289
00:17:53,423 --> 00:18:01,809
♪♪
290
00:18:01,845 --> 00:18:04,315
To follow your example.
291
00:18:04,384 --> 00:18:06,182
[ singing continues ]
292
00:18:06,234 --> 00:18:14,087
♪♪
293
00:18:14,156 --> 00:18:22,248
♪♪
294
00:18:22,317 --> 00:18:31,421
♪♪
295
00:18:31,489 --> 00:18:40,715
♪♪
296
00:18:40,817 --> 00:18:43,487
-The new role of archbishop
of canterbury
297
00:18:43,523 --> 00:18:47,021
Seemed to increase becket's
faith.
298
00:18:47,089 --> 00:18:48,976
And very quickly,
299
00:18:49,012 --> 00:18:53,010
His relationship with the king
changed, dramatically.
300
00:18:54,078 --> 00:18:55,182
[ knock on door ]
301
00:18:56,317 --> 00:18:57,882
-Come in.
[ door opens ]
302
00:19:01,390 --> 00:19:03,054
-Your majesty,
303
00:19:03,090 --> 00:19:05,554
We've just received an
urgent message from canterbury.
304
00:19:05,623 --> 00:19:08,876
-So deliver it in a low tone.
305
00:19:08,912 --> 00:19:11,043
-We've been told that
the new archbishop of canterbury
306
00:19:11,112 --> 00:19:15,815
Has just resigned
as his majesty's chancellor.
307
00:19:15,884 --> 00:19:18,637
-What news are you bringing me
of this lowborn wretch?
308
00:19:18,656 --> 00:19:20,554
Doesn't have the heart
to tell me.
309
00:19:20,623 --> 00:19:23,227
Eye to eye!
[ screams ]
310
00:19:23,245 --> 00:19:26,960
I'll have him groveling on
his knees and kissing my feet!
311
00:19:30,051 --> 00:19:32,049
-Theobald had thought
that placing becket
312
00:19:32,084 --> 00:19:34,954
As lord chancellor
would give him an opportunity
313
00:19:35,089 --> 00:19:38,571
To have an inside man
to work on the king,
314
00:19:38,656 --> 00:19:41,077
And the king, vice versa.
315
00:19:41,145 --> 00:19:43,877
He thought having becket
as his lord chancellor
316
00:19:43,912 --> 00:19:46,649
Would give him a way
to influence the church.
317
00:19:48,218 --> 00:19:50,382
They were both wrong.
318
00:19:50,456 --> 00:19:51,921
It started four months
319
00:19:51,923 --> 00:19:55,371
After becket was consecrated
as archbishop,
320
00:19:55,456 --> 00:19:57,277
A constant tug of war.
321
00:20:02,951 --> 00:20:05,716
-It is not right
that the will of the monarchy
322
00:20:05,751 --> 00:20:09,055
Should interfere
in ecclesiastical matters,
323
00:20:09,123 --> 00:20:11,055
Nor that the hands
of royal clerks
324
00:20:11,073 --> 00:20:13,810
Should find themselves
in church coffers.
325
00:20:13,879 --> 00:20:17,377
I hereby demand
that you return all lands,
326
00:20:17,462 --> 00:20:18,749
Properties and incomes
327
00:20:18,818 --> 00:20:22,549
You so unlawfully seized
from the church.
328
00:20:22,618 --> 00:20:25,721
-You will redirect the receipt
of all funds collected
329
00:20:25,773 --> 00:20:27,371
To the office of the chancellor,
330
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:28,938
Your former position,
331
00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:31,910
Which I myself
now occupy as a result
332
00:20:31,979 --> 00:20:36,049
Of your ill-considered decision
to resign the post.
333
00:20:36,118 --> 00:20:39,716
-Little by little, henry
stripped becket of all his lands
334
00:20:39,784 --> 00:20:42,438
And the fees
he collected from them.
335
00:20:42,540 --> 00:20:45,221
This threatened thomas,
and he responded
336
00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:48,044
By excommunicating one
of henry's noblemen.
337
00:20:48,079 --> 00:20:51,810
-By the authority vested in me
by almighty god,
338
00:20:51,879 --> 00:20:54,549
I hereby issue this decree
of excommunication
339
00:20:54,618 --> 00:20:57,449
Against william of eynsford
340
00:20:57,540 --> 00:21:01,821
For grave offenses committed
against the laws and doctrines
341
00:21:01,873 --> 00:21:04,110
Of our holy mother church,
342
00:21:04,146 --> 00:21:07,344
And for persistently refusing
to repent and amend his ways,
343
00:21:07,446 --> 00:21:10,816
Despite repeated admonitions
and warnings.
344
00:21:10,885 --> 00:21:13,766
He is hereby cut off
from the body of the faithful,
345
00:21:13,785 --> 00:21:15,672
Cut off from the sanctity
of the church,
346
00:21:15,774 --> 00:21:19,772
And deprived of all spiritual
privileges and benefits thereof.
347
00:21:22,012 --> 00:21:25,783
-Excommunication.
To be excommunicated
348
00:21:25,818 --> 00:21:28,283
Meant to be cast out
of the church.
349
00:21:28,351 --> 00:21:31,872
You became an exile
in your own world.
350
00:21:31,940 --> 00:21:34,105
That ruthlessness
becket displayed when he was
351
00:21:34,140 --> 00:21:39,444
Lord chancellor
now was turned on the king.
352
00:21:39,513 --> 00:21:43,683
Excommunication was becket's
most powerful weapon,
353
00:21:43,785 --> 00:21:46,683
And he could even use it
against henry,
354
00:21:46,785 --> 00:21:49,138
Stripping him of his right
to rule.
355
00:21:49,257 --> 00:21:51,472
-He did what?
356
00:21:51,540 --> 00:21:52,971
He did what?!
357
00:21:53,007 --> 00:21:54,711
Am I not a patient man?!
358
00:21:54,779 --> 00:21:56,944
Have I not given him grace?!
359
00:21:56,979 --> 00:21:58,711
Now I have no more love for him!
360
00:21:58,779 --> 00:22:03,350
-At the time, if a member of
the clergy committed any crime
361
00:22:03,385 --> 00:22:05,388
From theft to murder,
362
00:22:05,407 --> 00:22:08,172
He was tried and punished
by the ecclesiastical court,
363
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:12,711
The church court, and kept
protected from the king's court,
364
00:22:12,779 --> 00:22:15,344
The king's justice.
365
00:22:15,379 --> 00:22:17,950
When a priest committed
murder and rape,
366
00:22:18,018 --> 00:22:20,750
The power struggle
between thomas and henry
367
00:22:20,852 --> 00:22:22,505
Escalated even more.
368
00:22:22,574 --> 00:22:25,905
-A priest who murders
a man in his own home
369
00:22:26,007 --> 00:22:28,511
So that he could freely ravage
that man's daughter
370
00:22:28,546 --> 00:22:30,377
In a bed of hay,
371
00:22:30,446 --> 00:22:32,616
And he is entitled to protection
from the royal courts.
372
00:22:32,685 --> 00:22:34,050
-He was punished, of course.
373
00:22:34,118 --> 00:22:35,850
-Beheaded and deboweled
is what he deserves.
374
00:22:35,885 --> 00:22:37,950
-The church does not mete
out corporal punishment,
375
00:22:38,018 --> 00:22:40,672
As you know, lest in the --
376
00:22:40,741 --> 00:22:43,072
-Don't you quote canon law
to me!
377
00:22:43,174 --> 00:22:45,178
You think nothing
of excommunicating my nobles,
378
00:22:45,213 --> 00:22:48,944
But your murderous priest is
exempt from the highest law
379
00:22:49,013 --> 00:22:51,116
Of the land, the crown?
380
00:22:51,185 --> 00:22:53,583
-Again, sire, he was treated
with the highest severity
381
00:22:53,618 --> 00:22:55,939
That canon law dictates.
382
00:22:56,007 --> 00:22:58,239
-God's eyes, I'll have
that man hanging from my gallows
383
00:22:58,341 --> 00:22:59,739
With a fortnight.
384
00:22:59,841 --> 00:23:01,078
-Not as long
as the law of the church stands
385
00:23:01,113 --> 00:23:02,044
And my bishops are behind me.
386
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,178
-My bishops!
387
00:23:10,652 --> 00:23:12,772
-These are men ordained by god,
388
00:23:12,841 --> 00:23:14,905
And they will be judged by god
389
00:23:14,974 --> 00:23:18,444
Alone through the instrument
of the church.
390
00:23:18,513 --> 00:23:20,794
-Where is this in canon law?
391
00:23:20,846 --> 00:23:23,750
-No greater authority
than canon law.
392
00:23:23,819 --> 00:23:26,617
These are the words
of saint jerome.
393
00:23:26,685 --> 00:23:28,939
A mere man should not exact
twofold vengeance
394
00:23:29,008 --> 00:23:32,172
For one single fault
when god, judge of all men,
395
00:23:32,241 --> 00:23:36,444
As it is written, judges no one
twice for the same offense.
396
00:23:36,513 --> 00:23:38,278
-By god's eyes,
397
00:23:38,346 --> 00:23:40,783
You mete out a slap
on the wrist and god says
398
00:23:40,852 --> 00:23:43,017
We cannot punish him again?
399
00:23:43,085 --> 00:23:44,817
-It is our desire
to heed your will in all things,
400
00:23:44,952 --> 00:23:46,572
My good lord, worshipfully,
401
00:23:46,641 --> 00:23:49,839
If it does not go against that
which is right.
402
00:23:49,908 --> 00:23:51,845
If it obstructs the will of god
403
00:23:51,913 --> 00:23:57,850
And the laws and dignity
of our holy church,
404
00:23:57,919 --> 00:24:00,250
We won't dare give
our assent to it.
405
00:24:00,285 --> 00:24:03,306
-On this day,
I put the question to you all,
406
00:24:03,341 --> 00:24:05,372
And directly to you, archbishop.
407
00:24:05,474 --> 00:24:08,378
And the question is
a simple one.
408
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:11,511
Will you obey
my ancestral customs?
409
00:24:13,852 --> 00:24:19,139
-The answer, my lord, is yes in
every way, salvo o deni nostro.
410
00:24:19,208 --> 00:24:22,739
-Salvo o deni nostro.
411
00:24:22,808 --> 00:24:25,811
"with the exception of
our order."
412
00:24:25,847 --> 00:24:30,434
Meaning that becket would
uphold henry's ancestral customs
413
00:24:30,486 --> 00:24:35,506
Only when they didn't contradict
canon law, church law.
414
00:24:35,575 --> 00:24:37,973
This was an escalation.
415
00:24:38,008 --> 00:24:41,178
It's defiance of the king
right in public.
416
00:24:41,247 --> 00:24:44,811
-There's poison lurking in that
sophist invention of a phrase!
417
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,350
When we meet next,
you will agree outright
418
00:24:48,419 --> 00:24:52,873
And expressly to
my ancestral customs!
419
00:24:54,975 --> 00:24:56,906
-Just like theobald,
420
00:24:56,975 --> 00:24:59,645
Becket had to walk
that political tightrope.
421
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,712
And more than once he
was forced to contradict himself
422
00:25:02,780 --> 00:25:06,384
To hedge his bets, and this
angered many of his bishops.
423
00:25:07,952 --> 00:25:10,206
Finally, the pope
instructed becket
424
00:25:10,275 --> 00:25:13,539
To just accept henry's demands.
425
00:25:15,380 --> 00:25:19,212
But henry wanted to make
a public show of it.
426
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:25,384
-My lord, I freely consent
to all of your demands.
427
00:25:25,419 --> 00:25:29,073
And I declare that I will keep
all the customs of the realm
428
00:25:29,141 --> 00:25:32,378
In all good faith.
429
00:25:32,447 --> 00:25:35,212
-Now I ask the same of
each one of you down the line,
430
00:25:35,247 --> 00:25:37,651
My lord, the bishop of
winchester, step forward please.
431
00:25:41,053 --> 00:25:42,384
-I consent.
432
00:25:42,542 --> 00:25:48,445
♪♪
433
00:25:48,547 --> 00:25:49,878
[ knock on door ]
434
00:25:49,947 --> 00:25:51,312
-Enter.
[ door opens ]
435
00:25:51,380 --> 00:25:54,551
-The king took everything
to a new level.
436
00:25:54,619 --> 00:25:57,317
He put it all in writing.
437
00:25:57,419 --> 00:26:00,806
Henry added provisions
that they had never discussed.
438
00:26:00,875 --> 00:26:04,273
One, he put the power
of prosecuting crimes committed
439
00:26:04,308 --> 00:26:07,179
By the clergy into
the hands of the royal courts,
440
00:26:07,281 --> 00:26:09,012
The king's court.
441
00:26:09,114 --> 00:26:13,384
Two, he took the threat of
excommunication off the table.
442
00:26:13,453 --> 00:26:15,017
And three, and worst of all,
443
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:16,840
He stripped becket of
his property
444
00:26:16,942 --> 00:26:19,606
And he charged him
with fraud and embezzlement
445
00:26:19,675 --> 00:26:22,679
During his tenure
as lord chancellor.
446
00:26:24,514 --> 00:26:30,384
Like theobald, becket
went into exile in France,
447
00:26:30,453 --> 00:26:32,718
But a much lengthier exile.
448
00:26:34,308 --> 00:26:35,873
He left all
the worldly corruption
449
00:26:35,942 --> 00:26:38,006
And backstabbing behind.
450
00:26:40,214 --> 00:26:41,679
He lived in a monastery,
451
00:26:41,781 --> 00:26:45,651
Where his existence became more
and more ascetic,
452
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:47,451
And his faith in god grew.
453
00:26:51,975 --> 00:26:56,645
Henry and becket met twice
during his exile of six years.
454
00:26:56,681 --> 00:27:00,012
Both times, henry needed
something from becket,
455
00:27:00,114 --> 00:27:03,851
And becket wanted to pave the
way for his return to England,
456
00:27:05,020 --> 00:27:08,773
And both times it ended
in a stalemate.
457
00:27:08,842 --> 00:27:11,540
-It's good to see you, thomas.
458
00:27:11,658 --> 00:27:15,745
-Your majesty.
-Are you ready to come home?
459
00:27:15,781 --> 00:27:17,551
-I am, my lord.
460
00:27:17,620 --> 00:27:20,618
I want to be back
with my people.
461
00:27:20,686 --> 00:27:23,051
-Well, you can.
462
00:27:23,120 --> 00:27:27,173
You must understand, it's easy.
463
00:27:27,209 --> 00:27:30,779
It's entirely up to you.
464
00:27:30,848 --> 00:27:33,846
-It's also up to you.
465
00:27:33,914 --> 00:27:39,718
-Thomas, why is it you
won't just do what I want?
466
00:27:39,787 --> 00:27:44,540
-I cannot, my lord. I must not.
467
00:27:44,609 --> 00:27:46,996
I have an obligation
to protect holy mother church,
468
00:27:47,081 --> 00:27:50,679
For she is the dwelling place
of god.
469
00:27:52,853 --> 00:27:55,451
-Mother church is the
dwelling place of your power,
470
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,340
And you're using it against me.
471
00:27:57,409 --> 00:27:59,207
-All the power god grants us,
472
00:27:59,276 --> 00:28:03,179
We use for the good
of the realm, your majesty.
473
00:28:16,009 --> 00:28:21,479
-After six years in exile,
with the king's permission,
474
00:28:21,581 --> 00:28:25,968
Becket finally returned
to canterbury.
475
00:28:25,970 --> 00:28:31,740
-God almighty, I offer my thanks
and undying devotion
476
00:28:31,776 --> 00:28:34,907
For allowing my safe return
to my beloved country...
477
00:28:38,248 --> 00:28:40,746
...And my beloved church,
478
00:28:40,815 --> 00:28:42,852
With whose care
you have entrusted me.
479
00:28:46,654 --> 00:28:54,846
♪♪
480
00:28:54,915 --> 00:28:58,252
-Becket, you've returned.
-God be praised.
481
00:28:58,287 --> 00:29:01,218
-Thank you.
-Praise god!
482
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:02,985
-He was welcomed as a hero
by his monks
483
00:29:03,020 --> 00:29:05,907
And by the local citizens
484
00:29:05,976 --> 00:29:09,579
Because no matter
how inconsistent his behavior,
485
00:29:09,648 --> 00:29:14,413
He had stood up for the church
against a power-hungry king.
486
00:29:14,531 --> 00:29:19,018
And then, the power struggle
started up again.
487
00:29:19,087 --> 00:29:23,841
-A man who has eaten my bread,
who came to my court, poor,
488
00:29:23,909 --> 00:29:27,980
A lowborn clerk, and I --
I have raised him high.
489
00:29:28,098 --> 00:29:31,413
And now he draws up his heel
to kick me in the teeth.
490
00:29:31,515 --> 00:29:35,652
He has shamed my kin.
He has shamed my realm!
491
00:29:35,687 --> 00:29:37,907
And the grief goes to my heart!
492
00:29:38,026 --> 00:29:40,641
And none of you have avenged me!
493
00:29:44,815 --> 00:29:48,313
-They were knights
on the fringes of henry's court,
494
00:29:48,348 --> 00:29:51,652
And they were out
to prove themselves to the king.
495
00:30:03,715 --> 00:30:05,552
[ door opens ]
496
00:30:05,654 --> 00:30:09,652
-Where is the archbishop?
-Here I am.
497
00:30:09,687 --> 00:30:13,874
-Go to the cloisters.
-I'm not running.
498
00:30:13,976 --> 00:30:15,691
May god's will be done.
499
00:30:18,682 --> 00:30:21,313
-The king has tried
to keep the peace.
500
00:30:21,382 --> 00:30:25,052
You have excommunicated
his bishops,
501
00:30:25,154 --> 00:30:28,357
And now you're trying to take
the crown away from his son.
502
00:30:28,359 --> 00:30:31,808
-Lies. I tried
to exalt his crown, not take it.
503
00:30:31,876 --> 00:30:34,513
-God's wounds,
how long must we bear this?
504
00:30:34,582 --> 00:30:37,913
-And in the lord's battle
I will fight hand to hand.
505
00:30:37,982 --> 00:30:42,985
-Come, answer before the king.
-I will do no such thing.
506
00:30:43,021 --> 00:30:47,508
-I warn you, you're
no longer under his protection.
507
00:30:47,576 --> 00:30:51,013
-I am under god's protection.
508
00:30:51,082 --> 00:30:55,147
-Come out of this church.
509
00:30:55,182 --> 00:30:58,419
-If you're going to kill me,
you're going to do it here.
510
00:30:58,488 --> 00:31:00,219
-Come out of the church!
511
00:31:00,354 --> 00:31:02,274
-You have no business
to touch me.
512
00:31:02,310 --> 00:31:03,774
You pimp!
513
00:31:03,876 --> 00:31:05,408
[ both grunt ]
514
00:31:06,210 --> 00:31:08,213
-Hit him! Hit him!
515
00:31:08,282 --> 00:31:09,880
-Do it here!
516
00:31:09,949 --> 00:31:13,319
Gah! Aah!
517
00:31:13,388 --> 00:31:15,052
[ blood spilling ]
518
00:31:15,221 --> 00:31:22,941
♪♪
519
00:31:23,093 --> 00:31:25,947
[ groaning ]
520
00:31:26,082 --> 00:31:26,980
[ coughs ]
521
00:31:27,049 --> 00:31:35,141
♪♪
522
00:31:35,210 --> 00:31:38,108
I think I'm ready for death.
523
00:31:38,210 --> 00:31:39,875
-[ screams ]
524
00:31:47,621 --> 00:31:50,886
-The knights were forced
to murder him in the cathedral.
525
00:31:52,443 --> 00:31:54,875
Becket strengthened
the power of the church
526
00:31:54,943 --> 00:31:57,880
By forcing henry's men
to violate its sanctity.
527
00:32:04,121 --> 00:32:07,619
It was said that becket's
blood had miraculous properties.
528
00:32:11,277 --> 00:32:13,341
His relics were
carefully guarded,
529
00:32:13,443 --> 00:32:16,114
And he was buried quickly
in a stone crypt
530
00:32:16,182 --> 00:32:19,047
To prevent henry
and his followers from seizing
531
00:32:19,116 --> 00:32:20,653
And destroying the body.
532
00:32:23,221 --> 00:32:25,808
Becket's shrine became one
of the most famous holy sites
533
00:32:25,877 --> 00:32:30,342
In europe, and
within three years of his death,
534
00:32:30,444 --> 00:32:32,714
He was canonized
by pope alexander.
535
00:32:36,855 --> 00:32:39,553
Legions of pilgrims
from all over europe
536
00:32:39,621 --> 00:32:41,319
Made their way to canterbury.
537
00:32:43,344 --> 00:32:46,042
[ coins clinking heavily ]
538
00:32:46,110 --> 00:32:48,881
Henry recognized the importance
of joining the cult
539
00:32:48,949 --> 00:32:50,447
Of the martyred saint.
540
00:32:52,449 --> 00:32:54,653
So he allowed himself
to receive a public,
541
00:32:54,721 --> 00:33:01,408
Though mostly symbolic, flogging
at the hands of becket's monks.
542
00:33:01,510 --> 00:33:03,575
In the struggle for power
between the king
543
00:33:03,677 --> 00:33:07,281
And his archbishop,
544
00:33:07,349 --> 00:33:09,081
Becket had the last word.
545
00:33:11,088 --> 00:33:14,953
But the war between church
and state went on for centuries.
546
00:33:16,844 --> 00:33:22,114
350 years after becket's death,
henry viii,
547
00:33:22,183 --> 00:33:25,014
Who was bent on destroying
the catholic church in England
548
00:33:25,083 --> 00:33:29,720
So that he could divorce his
wife and remarry, got revenge.
549
00:33:32,111 --> 00:33:34,842
The name and likeness
of thomas becket
550
00:33:34,911 --> 00:33:38,181
Was removed throughout England
from every missal
551
00:33:38,249 --> 00:33:39,714
And every prayer book.
552
00:33:41,949 --> 00:33:44,686
But of course
he is still remembered
553
00:33:44,722 --> 00:33:48,620
And his saint's day
is still celebrated.
554
00:33:52,177 --> 00:33:53,909
Becket lived in a time
555
00:33:54,011 --> 00:33:56,048
When it would have been
virtually impossible
556
00:33:56,116 --> 00:33:58,581
At the highest levels
of the church
557
00:33:58,683 --> 00:34:03,753
To not be caught up
in politics and games of power.
558
00:34:03,788 --> 00:34:07,242
So what does
this sainthood mean?
559
00:34:07,311 --> 00:34:10,075
Could be as simple as this --
560
00:34:10,111 --> 00:34:12,948
That he was able to
fully express his faith
561
00:34:13,016 --> 00:34:16,614
And to serve god only
with his own death.
562
00:34:18,922 --> 00:34:22,120
In the last split second
of his life,
563
00:34:22,189 --> 00:34:25,142
Maybe he could finally see
beyond all of his achievements
564
00:34:25,244 --> 00:34:27,948
And his possessions,
565
00:34:28,016 --> 00:34:30,581
And beyond all
the endless struggles for power
566
00:34:30,616 --> 00:34:34,153
Between kings and priests,
567
00:34:34,255 --> 00:34:36,420
And look right into
the heart of the mystery.
568
00:34:36,489 --> 00:34:43,942
♪♪
569
00:34:46,150 --> 00:34:53,920
♪♪
570
00:34:53,989 --> 00:34:56,976
The big question for me,
of course,
571
00:34:57,078 --> 00:35:01,209
Always is becket is always
presented as a man of faith,
572
00:35:01,311 --> 00:35:02,848
Right?
573
00:35:02,917 --> 00:35:04,748
Being in such
a secular situation,
574
00:35:04,817 --> 00:35:06,815
Was he an opportunist at times?
575
00:35:06,883 --> 00:35:09,487
Ultimately, was he
a true man of god?
576
00:35:09,522 --> 00:35:13,742
How does one balance these
two separate possibilities,
577
00:35:13,811 --> 00:35:17,976
So to speak, the secular
and of course, the faith?
578
00:35:18,011 --> 00:35:21,381
-But it's not just secular.
It's political.
579
00:35:21,483 --> 00:35:25,254
It's about -- the whole
episode really is about power
580
00:35:25,322 --> 00:35:31,542
And about that crush between
the church and the crown.
581
00:35:31,644 --> 00:35:33,876
-I think god uses, in a sense,
582
00:35:33,978 --> 00:35:36,298
Becket's ambition for god's
own purposes.
583
00:35:36,317 --> 00:35:38,648
At the end, he becomes
ambitious for the church.
584
00:35:38,717 --> 00:35:40,315
My sense is that he has
a conversion, you know.
585
00:35:40,383 --> 00:35:44,804
The weight of the office
of being archbishop changes him,
586
00:35:44,822 --> 00:35:46,876
And he realizes who
his allegiance is to.
587
00:35:46,978 --> 00:35:48,909
And if he was ambitious
to begin with,
588
00:35:48,978 --> 00:35:52,648
God kind of channeled that
into ambition and desire
589
00:35:52,717 --> 00:35:54,315
To help the church in the end.
590
00:35:54,350 --> 00:35:56,081
My sense is also that,
591
00:35:56,150 --> 00:35:58,087
You know, we have an expression
called the grace of office,
592
00:35:58,156 --> 00:36:00,020
Which is that when
you're ordained
593
00:36:00,089 --> 00:36:01,920
Or when you take
on a certain ministry,
594
00:36:01,989 --> 00:36:03,809
God gives you
this certain grace.
595
00:36:03,878 --> 00:36:06,659
And my sense was that
he got this grace to understand
596
00:36:06,711 --> 00:36:08,548
That this was his role, right?
597
00:36:08,584 --> 00:36:10,715
That he was no longer
going to be the king's pawn,
598
00:36:10,750 --> 00:36:12,931
So to speak,
599
00:36:12,950 --> 00:36:14,487
But that he had to really focus
on the needs of the church.
600
00:36:14,556 --> 00:36:15,554
And that makes sense.
601
00:36:15,622 --> 00:36:17,154
To me, that makes sense.
602
00:36:17,222 --> 00:36:19,154
You're ordained,
you get a certain grace,
603
00:36:19,222 --> 00:36:21,776
And that enables you
to discern in a way
604
00:36:21,878 --> 00:36:23,909
That you might
not have discerned beforehand.
605
00:36:23,978 --> 00:36:28,315
-But why in this episode do I
have such a knee-jerk reaction?
606
00:36:28,434 --> 00:36:31,921
Every time they say
"holy mother church,"
607
00:36:31,989 --> 00:36:35,554
I hear like bank of america.
-I think it's intentional, mary,
608
00:36:35,623 --> 00:36:38,209
Because that's what
we had to face.
609
00:36:38,245 --> 00:36:42,582
I mean, it is intentional
in that the power structure was,
610
00:36:42,650 --> 00:36:44,315
You know, henry,
611
00:36:44,384 --> 00:36:48,154
And the church was part
of that major facet
612
00:36:48,223 --> 00:36:49,787
Of the power structure.
613
00:36:49,889 --> 00:36:51,154
So it made sense to try
to control it.
614
00:36:51,223 --> 00:36:53,376
For the king.
-I would say two things.
615
00:36:53,412 --> 00:36:56,443
The church was
more political back then, right?
616
00:36:56,545 --> 00:36:58,710
But it also still is political.
617
00:36:58,778 --> 00:37:00,382
It was a political force,
you know,
618
00:37:00,417 --> 00:37:02,115
In terms of temporal power,
619
00:37:02,150 --> 00:37:04,315
But the idea that it's a
political power now means it's,
620
00:37:04,389 --> 00:37:06,054
You know,
it's a human organization.
621
00:37:06,172 --> 00:37:08,221
And I think for me,
the deeper question is,
622
00:37:08,289 --> 00:37:10,810
Can the holy spirit still work
through an organization
623
00:37:10,878 --> 00:37:12,776
That is political, you know,
624
00:37:12,812 --> 00:37:14,943
Like the church was
much more back then
625
00:37:15,028 --> 00:37:16,949
And still is to
a certain degree?
626
00:37:16,984 --> 00:37:18,815
-Well, that's I guess what
I want to ask about.
627
00:37:18,884 --> 00:37:21,154
Why was it so much
more political then?
628
00:37:21,189 --> 00:37:22,954
-Well, I think
the question would be,
629
00:37:23,023 --> 00:37:25,221
Why is it less political now?
630
00:37:25,289 --> 00:37:27,876
And the idea is that it gave up
a lot of the political power,
631
00:37:27,945 --> 00:37:29,943
Gave up a lot of the land,
right, in a sense.
632
00:37:30,012 --> 00:37:31,976
And it consciously became,
633
00:37:32,045 --> 00:37:33,715
Tried to become less political,
you know,
634
00:37:33,784 --> 00:37:35,482
Whereas today you have --
-wait a minute.
635
00:37:35,551 --> 00:37:37,782
You say gave up all the land,
but look at all the cathedrals
636
00:37:37,817 --> 00:37:39,288
In all these cities,
and let's face it,
637
00:37:39,323 --> 00:37:42,121
Were the great real-estate
holder of --
638
00:37:42,190 --> 00:37:44,943
One of the great real-estate
holders of the planet.
639
00:37:44,978 --> 00:37:49,282
-But in terms of like
actual politics, direct,
640
00:37:49,351 --> 00:37:51,949
In a sense influence
into politics,
641
00:37:52,017 --> 00:37:53,782
Like saying "you should vote
for this person,"
642
00:37:53,851 --> 00:37:55,821
Is something that
the church tries to stay out of,
643
00:37:55,873 --> 00:37:58,271
Which it did not,
you know, way back when.
644
00:37:58,323 --> 00:38:01,777
-Yeah, yeah.
-They advocated for one king
645
00:38:01,845 --> 00:38:03,110
Or one queen, et cetera.
646
00:38:03,179 --> 00:38:04,943
-Well, also tied up
that oftentimes,
647
00:38:05,012 --> 00:38:06,182
The local rulers would have
a lot
648
00:38:06,217 --> 00:38:07,882
Of say of who the bishops were.
649
00:38:07,951 --> 00:38:10,915
-So at that time,
the king ruled by divine right,
650
00:38:11,017 --> 00:38:13,371
So there was a religious aspect
to the monarchy,
651
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:15,621
And there was only one church
at that time.
652
00:38:15,673 --> 00:38:17,210
This is prior
to the reformation,
653
00:38:17,279 --> 00:38:20,343
So it was the catholic church
and the crown.
654
00:38:20,379 --> 00:38:23,465
They were intertwined
in god knows how many ways.
655
00:38:23,518 --> 00:38:26,116
And to me,
the thrust of becket's story
656
00:38:26,184 --> 00:38:29,021
And of this episode
is that it's understood
657
00:38:29,056 --> 00:38:30,421
That there's going to be
a certain amount of
658
00:38:30,523 --> 00:38:32,371
Back-and-forth
between church and crown.
659
00:38:32,456 --> 00:38:35,277
But what people rise up against,
beginning with becket himself,
660
00:38:35,345 --> 00:38:38,843
Is when the crown makes
the church its plaything
661
00:38:38,879 --> 00:38:42,182
And behaves willy-nilly in the
way that we see in the story.
662
00:38:42,251 --> 00:38:45,171
That's when becket said,
"I'm going to draw a line here."
663
00:38:45,223 --> 00:38:48,955
-Yeah, it was very kind
of difficult to disentangle,
664
00:38:49,023 --> 00:38:51,410
You know, where
the authority of the church was
665
00:38:51,512 --> 00:38:53,410
And where the authority
of the crown was.
666
00:38:53,512 --> 00:38:56,010
-But the thing about that is
that the divine right of kings
667
00:38:56,045 --> 00:38:58,215
Means that as a man
you have a right.
668
00:38:58,251 --> 00:39:00,016
It's like saying you're
the emperor.
669
00:39:00,084 --> 00:39:03,138
"I am god
because god speaks through me."
670
00:39:03,240 --> 00:39:06,338
So who is the pope, then?
Well, in other words,
671
00:39:06,423 --> 00:39:09,244
I have all the power
because I have divine right.
672
00:39:09,279 --> 00:39:12,410
-Yeah, so divine right
of kings means that the king is,
673
00:39:12,446 --> 00:39:15,349
In a sense, god's chosen one
in that particular land.
674
00:39:15,418 --> 00:39:17,916
But don't put yourself
up there with god.
675
00:39:17,984 --> 00:39:20,971
That's where the line
is being drawn by becket.
676
00:39:21,073 --> 00:39:24,310
-That's the fight.
That's the fight.
677
00:39:24,412 --> 00:39:25,910
But why not?
678
00:39:25,979 --> 00:39:29,816
If you have that power as king,
why not?
679
00:39:29,918 --> 00:39:31,616
You know,
who are you to tell me?
680
00:39:31,685 --> 00:39:34,949
And this extraordinary moment
where he's trying the man
681
00:39:35,018 --> 00:39:38,121
In ecclesiastical courts
who was a priest,
682
00:39:38,173 --> 00:39:40,910
Who killed the father
of the woman that he rapes.
683
00:39:40,946 --> 00:39:42,910
-Yes.
-And you're telling me
684
00:39:42,946 --> 00:39:44,477
That that's going to be
ecclesiastical
685
00:39:44,579 --> 00:39:47,449
And we can't take care of that
in the king's court?
686
00:39:47,518 --> 00:39:49,316
What I -- I mean,
I could go further with it,
687
00:39:49,418 --> 00:39:51,416
In that what I say
and what I believe
688
00:39:51,485 --> 00:39:53,138
And what I think is
a divine right.
689
00:39:53,240 --> 00:39:56,422
In other words,
god is guiding me through this.
690
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:59,777
Granted, I'm benefiting from it,
but god is guiding me.
691
00:39:59,846 --> 00:40:01,810
Who are you to tell me?
692
00:40:01,846 --> 00:40:04,983
-Even the unlettered peasant
can sense the wrongness of that.
693
00:40:05,085 --> 00:40:06,583
-That's right.
-And that's why there was
694
00:40:06,618 --> 00:40:09,672
Such a popular support
for becket after he died.
695
00:40:09,740 --> 00:40:11,138
-That's right. That's right.
-Yeah.
696
00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:12,938
Sure, you're the king,
you've got divine right,
697
00:40:13,007 --> 00:40:15,011
But make no mistake --
nobody's above the law
698
00:40:15,079 --> 00:40:16,944
Or nobody's on the level
with god.
699
00:40:17,013 --> 00:40:18,611
It's probably the way
they would have put it.
700
00:40:18,679 --> 00:40:20,616
-Otherwise, it literally is,
you know, feudalism.
701
00:40:20,668 --> 00:40:22,849
Slavery, basically.
-Well, it's always there.
702
00:40:22,918 --> 00:40:25,283
There's always tension
between religion
703
00:40:25,351 --> 00:40:27,438
And the dominant powers
in society.
704
00:40:27,507 --> 00:40:31,138
And sometimes they're fighting
and sometimes they're colluding.
705
00:40:31,246 --> 00:40:33,577
And this is this is the way
of the world.
706
00:40:33,613 --> 00:40:35,344
-Well, god told me to.
707
00:40:35,413 --> 00:40:36,950
God told me
because he speaks through me
708
00:40:37,018 --> 00:40:39,116
And I, you know,
I'm looking out for you.
709
00:40:39,185 --> 00:40:41,016
-To go to war, to do this,
do that.
710
00:40:41,085 --> 00:40:42,972
-Yeah, go to war, defend me,
you defend yourselves,
711
00:40:43,074 --> 00:40:45,105
We defend our culture,
we defend who we are
712
00:40:45,174 --> 00:40:47,072
Because god has given
me this grace and this power.
713
00:40:47,140 --> 00:40:49,111
-As well as the kind of conflict
714
00:40:49,179 --> 00:40:53,177
Between church and state, the
jesuits who were killed in 1989,
715
00:40:53,246 --> 00:40:55,283
In el salvador, were standing
on the side of the poor,
716
00:40:55,352 --> 00:40:57,250
And the government
didn't like that.
717
00:40:57,318 --> 00:41:00,172
Right? And so it's always --
I think in the story of becket,
718
00:41:00,241 --> 00:41:02,239
You see kind of an early sign
of the church
719
00:41:02,307 --> 00:41:05,244
Asserting its own authority,
you know, over the state.
720
00:41:05,313 --> 00:41:07,144
Right? Which is something
721
00:41:07,179 --> 00:41:08,711
That plays out for
the next couple of centuries.
722
00:41:08,813 --> 00:41:10,816
-Yes, yes.
My question ultimately,
723
00:41:10,885 --> 00:41:12,183
But I think I know the answer is
724
00:41:12,252 --> 00:41:13,916
Because he stayed
in that cathedral,
725
00:41:13,985 --> 00:41:17,505
He hugged that pillar so that
he could be killed in the church
726
00:41:17,574 --> 00:41:19,339
To make that point.
727
00:41:19,407 --> 00:41:22,078
One could argue, well, this is
his own pride that develops.
728
00:41:22,146 --> 00:41:24,311
-Right.
-But to the point
729
00:41:24,346 --> 00:41:25,511
Where he lets himself be killed
by these guys in the cathedral?
730
00:41:25,580 --> 00:41:26,878
I don't think so.
731
00:41:26,980 --> 00:41:28,716
I think it's interesting,
732
00:41:28,818 --> 00:41:31,516
Between pride and knowing
he's going to be killed
733
00:41:31,585 --> 00:41:33,072
And he stays there.
734
00:41:33,141 --> 00:41:35,305
-The fact that after he died,
735
00:41:35,341 --> 00:41:39,011
This cult of his blood kind of
sprang up among the people
736
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,044
And such that the beginning
of "canterbury tales"
737
00:41:42,146 --> 00:41:46,550
Is about making
a holy pilgrimage to canterbury.
738
00:41:46,652 --> 00:41:47,983
There were miracles taking place
739
00:41:48,052 --> 00:41:50,639
That people were healed
from the blood
740
00:41:50,707 --> 00:41:52,505
And that it was circulating.
741
00:41:52,574 --> 00:41:55,144
-What amazes me
is that for 800 years,
742
00:41:55,263 --> 00:41:57,911
People have been going
on pilgrimage to that place,
743
00:41:57,980 --> 00:42:00,178
Hoping to be changed
somehow themselves.
744
00:42:00,246 --> 00:42:02,717
-Long before I converted,
745
00:42:02,785 --> 00:42:06,439
My son dragged me to church
"to see if god's there,"
746
00:42:06,541 --> 00:42:10,306
Which I would have never gone
if he hadn't dragged me.
747
00:42:10,374 --> 00:42:12,378
But I didn't believe
in anything.
748
00:42:12,446 --> 00:42:14,194
I had no religious background.
749
00:42:14,213 --> 00:42:17,383
My parents were atheist.
I never dabbled in it.
750
00:42:17,452 --> 00:42:19,650
I didn't have a moment with it.
751
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:21,367
But the faith of the people...
752
00:42:21,419 --> 00:42:24,455
-Sure.
-...I found very moving.
753
00:42:24,474 --> 00:42:26,572
So whether you're catholic
or not,
754
00:42:26,641 --> 00:42:30,745
Or whether you believe in
that becket was holy or not,
755
00:42:30,847 --> 00:42:32,745
As paul said,
756
00:42:32,813 --> 00:42:35,550
That for 800 years people
have been going to this place.
757
00:42:35,619 --> 00:42:40,139
And you think -- I think
of all the hope and longing
758
00:42:40,208 --> 00:42:45,811
And fear that people bring
to those places,
759
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:47,711
And is that not holy?
760
00:42:47,780 --> 00:42:57,539
♪♪
761
00:42:57,574 --> 00:43:07,045
♪♪
762
00:43:07,113 --> 00:43:16,706
♪♪
763
00:43:16,775 --> 00:43:26,284
♪♪
764
00:43:26,452 --> 00:43:35,812
♪♪
765
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:45,550
♪♪
766
00:43:45,619 --> 00:43:51,439
♪♪
767
00:43:53,014 --> 00:44:02,451
♪♪
768
00:44:02,519 --> 00:44:11,845
♪♪
769
00:44:11,914 --> 00:44:21,506
♪♪
770
00:44:21,675 --> 00:44:30,378
♪♪
771
00:44:30,447 --> 00:48:02,857
♪♪