1 00:00:07,003 --> 00:00:09,923 The village shop and post office had come up for sale. 2 00:00:11,123 --> 00:00:14,723 Someone suggested that I would be the perfect person to take it over. 3 00:00:15,723 --> 00:00:20,403 I started my first job as a postman back in 1965. 4 00:00:20,403 --> 00:00:24,763 and in 1994, I took over the post office. 5 00:00:26,843 --> 00:00:30,483 I passed my interview, so, yeah, I was given the position. 6 00:00:30,483 --> 00:00:32,083 And everything was perfect. 7 00:00:33,363 --> 00:00:36,563 We had a group of pensioners who would come in 8 00:00:36,563 --> 00:00:38,403 to get their pension every week. 9 00:00:39,643 --> 00:00:41,403 Very much part of a community. 10 00:00:42,883 --> 00:00:45,323 28p, please, love. How much? 11 00:00:45,323 --> 00:00:47,203 You do get to know your locals. 12 00:00:47,203 --> 00:00:50,003 We'd have a good banter, a good laugh with all the customers. 13 00:00:50,003 --> 00:00:51,843 It was really good. 14 00:00:51,843 --> 00:00:54,043 You're not only their postmaster. 15 00:00:54,043 --> 00:00:56,803 You were also an adviser to people. 16 00:00:58,083 --> 00:00:59,443 It was lovely. 17 00:00:59,443 --> 00:01:01,923 You felt like you were actually the heart of the village. 18 00:01:01,923 --> 00:01:03,643 Morning. With you in a minute. No rush. 19 00:01:03,643 --> 00:01:06,243 'It was idyllic.' 20 00:01:06,243 --> 00:01:09,683 I felt that I'd managed to get myself a good position. 21 00:01:09,683 --> 00:01:11,283 As a postmistress, it's not easy. 22 00:01:12,803 --> 00:01:16,203 'The idea was it would be my retirement business.' 23 00:01:16,203 --> 00:01:19,043 'I thought I was gonna spend the rest of my life there.' 24 00:01:20,763 --> 00:01:22,403 But I didn't know what was ahead of me. 25 00:01:22,403 --> 00:01:24,363 I went through hell. 26 00:01:26,123 --> 00:01:28,443 'It was diabolical.' 27 00:01:28,443 --> 00:01:30,483 Something had to be done about it. 28 00:01:41,163 --> 00:01:43,803 'Look, Alan!' CHEERING 29 00:01:43,803 --> 00:01:46,323 'Look what we did, look what you did!' 30 00:01:46,323 --> 00:01:48,603 'Should the Post Office bosses go to prison, too?' 31 00:01:48,603 --> 00:01:49,963 'No. No, no. 32 00:01:49,963 --> 00:01:52,683 'Hit them in their pockets.' 33 00:01:52,683 --> 00:01:54,483 Hit them in their pockets. 34 00:01:54,483 --> 00:01:56,283 That's what you want to do. 35 00:01:56,283 --> 00:01:58,723 That's... That's what's gonna hurt them. 36 00:01:58,723 --> 00:02:01,523 TOBY JONES: This is the story of a saga that began 37 00:02:01,523 --> 00:02:04,043 nearly 25 years ago. 38 00:02:04,043 --> 00:02:05,763 We were not mad, were we? 39 00:02:05,763 --> 00:02:07,563 Dealing with Post Office has been harder 40 00:02:07,563 --> 00:02:09,123 than dealing with the mafia. 41 00:02:09,123 --> 00:02:10,723 It's like fighting a steam roller. 42 00:02:10,723 --> 00:02:14,283 A group of subpostmasters from all over the UK 43 00:02:14,283 --> 00:02:18,083 fought to expose one of the widest miscarriages of justice 44 00:02:18,083 --> 00:02:19,403 in British legal history. 45 00:02:19,403 --> 00:02:22,483 We want answers now to know who's actually done this 46 00:02:22,483 --> 00:02:25,363 to so many people, and why. 47 00:02:28,563 --> 00:02:31,363 NEWSREEL: 'There begins the long chain of accounting, 48 00:02:31,363 --> 00:02:34,563 'and every ha'penny of every transaction accounted for.' 49 00:02:35,763 --> 00:02:39,163 The Post Office was established in 1660, 50 00:02:39,163 --> 00:02:43,283 and had always used paper and pen to balance the books. 51 00:02:44,603 --> 00:02:49,683 But in 1999, management introduced something completely new... 52 00:02:52,563 --> 00:02:55,563 ..a computer system called Horizon. 53 00:02:55,563 --> 00:02:58,523 It was the biggest IT roll-out in Europe. 54 00:02:58,523 --> 00:03:02,923 The Post Office connected 40,000 terminals across the country 55 00:03:02,923 --> 00:03:05,403 to one central hub. 56 00:03:06,763 --> 00:03:08,083 'An engineer arrived.' 57 00:03:08,083 --> 00:03:10,403 He screwed it on the desk, and I asked him what it was, 58 00:03:10,403 --> 00:03:12,883 and he goes, "That's Horizon. 59 00:03:12,883 --> 00:03:16,123 "It's going live shortly, you'll hear all about it." 60 00:03:17,443 --> 00:03:19,883 It was great, I was really enthusiastic. 61 00:03:19,883 --> 00:03:24,323 I'd been involved with developing bespoke software packages 62 00:03:24,323 --> 00:03:26,843 where I'd worked before, and I was all for it. 63 00:03:28,283 --> 00:03:32,083 Basically, I never had a problem balancing until that was installed, 64 00:03:32,083 --> 00:03:34,883 and then a couple of months after that, 65 00:03:34,883 --> 00:03:37,483 I had a very big shortfall at the end of the week. 66 00:03:37,483 --> 00:03:40,723 It said I was minus £2,000. 67 00:03:42,083 --> 00:03:46,403 Just overnight, £11,000 of stamps had gone missing. 68 00:03:46,403 --> 00:03:50,603 I suddenly found I had £6,000 shortfall, 69 00:03:50,603 --> 00:03:52,763 and I couldn't understand where that had gone. 70 00:03:52,763 --> 00:03:54,843 That was a ridiculous amount. 71 00:03:54,843 --> 00:03:58,723 There was no way of going back and checking stuff 72 00:03:58,723 --> 00:04:00,083 like you did with the paper, 73 00:04:00,083 --> 00:04:03,003 cos once you pressed that button, it had gone. 74 00:04:06,883 --> 00:04:09,123 I rang the help desk, 75 00:04:09,123 --> 00:04:11,683 and they told me to do various things, 76 00:04:11,683 --> 00:04:14,483 which doubled the shortfall to minus £4,000. 77 00:04:14,483 --> 00:04:16,083 When I rang the helpline, 78 00:04:16,083 --> 00:04:20,003 I was told that there was nobody else having these problems. 79 00:04:20,003 --> 00:04:22,323 Oh, yes, the helpline was telling you, 80 00:04:22,323 --> 00:04:24,443 "Nobody else has got a problem. 81 00:04:24,443 --> 00:04:25,963 "You're the only one." 82 00:04:25,963 --> 00:04:28,083 "You're the only one this is happening to." 83 00:04:28,083 --> 00:04:30,963 "You're the only one." That's what they kept saying. 84 00:04:31,963 --> 00:04:35,083 Then I started feeling like I was going mad. 85 00:04:36,163 --> 00:04:38,883 I knew I wasn't computer-literate, but I wasn't stupid either. 86 00:04:38,883 --> 00:04:41,603 In the end, you were totally confused, 87 00:04:41,603 --> 00:04:43,123 and nothing was done. 88 00:04:46,203 --> 00:04:48,203 Under the terms of their contracts, 89 00:04:48,203 --> 00:04:52,603 the 20,000 subpostmasters were liable for any shortfall, 90 00:04:52,603 --> 00:04:54,403 whatever the cause. 91 00:04:56,243 --> 00:04:59,003 When it got to about £9,000 short, 92 00:04:59,003 --> 00:05:02,923 I told my parents and my husband, and I said, 93 00:05:02,923 --> 00:05:05,043 "Can we re-mortgage and put the money in? 94 00:05:05,043 --> 00:05:07,043 "Cos I've got no idea what's happening, 95 00:05:07,043 --> 00:05:09,403 "but I've got to make it good." 96 00:05:09,403 --> 00:05:11,483 My mum went down to the building society 97 00:05:11,483 --> 00:05:12,803 and drew it out, 98 00:05:12,803 --> 00:05:15,763 and we put it into - the money into the safe. 99 00:05:15,763 --> 00:05:19,403 Every week, I was putting money in myself. 100 00:05:19,403 --> 00:05:23,923 So, we basically went through the cash until it all ran out 101 00:05:23,923 --> 00:05:26,723 to try and make up the balance every day. 102 00:05:26,723 --> 00:05:28,563 It was just up and down, up and down. 103 00:05:28,563 --> 00:05:30,003 It was never, ever right. 104 00:05:30,003 --> 00:05:33,083 And on the end of the month when we had to do the main balance... 105 00:05:34,683 --> 00:05:37,763 ..that's when it all used to come out, like... 106 00:05:37,763 --> 00:05:40,043 Where's this money gone? 107 00:05:40,043 --> 00:05:41,483 And the amount kept growing, 108 00:05:41,483 --> 00:05:44,803 so I then didn't say anything. 109 00:05:44,803 --> 00:05:48,723 I kept quiet and let it grow to £36,000. 110 00:05:48,723 --> 00:05:51,243 Terrified of what was gonna happen. 111 00:05:58,083 --> 00:05:59,763 In North Wales, 112 00:05:59,763 --> 00:06:03,643 one subpostmaster took a different approach. 113 00:06:06,723 --> 00:06:10,203 I had £1,000 of shortfall, 114 00:06:10,203 --> 00:06:12,723 and I've never been accepting the figure 115 00:06:12,723 --> 00:06:14,923 that Horizon had thrown up each week. 116 00:06:14,923 --> 00:06:16,923 Because I always felt that if I cleared it, 117 00:06:16,923 --> 00:06:20,763 I was accepting the Horizon system's figures. 118 00:06:20,763 --> 00:06:23,123 And I wasn't prepared to do that. 119 00:06:23,123 --> 00:06:25,403 Eventually, they got round to telling me 120 00:06:25,403 --> 00:06:28,003 I had to do it or else. 121 00:06:28,003 --> 00:06:32,243 And I said, "I won't do it, not until I have access to the system." 122 00:06:32,243 --> 00:06:36,563 And eventually, they decided just to terminate my contract 123 00:06:36,563 --> 00:06:40,243 without giving me any reason, and that was it. 124 00:06:40,243 --> 00:06:43,043 So, they walked off with my life savings 125 00:06:43,043 --> 00:06:46,243 and they decided to give my post office to somebody else. 126 00:06:48,123 --> 00:06:50,923 Horizon just created a whole batch of worry, 127 00:06:50,923 --> 00:06:52,323 not just for me, 128 00:06:52,323 --> 00:06:55,003 but for subpostmasters all over the country. 129 00:07:08,483 --> 00:07:12,883 I shall probably clean at least till I'm 70-ish. 130 00:07:13,963 --> 00:07:19,043 I'm resigned to the fact that I only have the state pension, 131 00:07:19,043 --> 00:07:24,883 and unless I sell my house, I need to keep working. 132 00:07:29,843 --> 00:07:33,683 The Post Office used their sweeping powers 133 00:07:33,683 --> 00:07:36,843 to bring private prosecutions against their own employees. 134 00:07:36,843 --> 00:07:39,123 In 2003, 135 00:07:39,123 --> 00:07:43,203 they went after Jo for the money they said she'd stolen. 136 00:07:43,203 --> 00:07:45,483 I was originally charged with theft, 137 00:07:45,483 --> 00:07:46,923 and I pleaded not guilty. 138 00:07:46,923 --> 00:07:49,523 And we almost got to trial, 139 00:07:49,523 --> 00:07:52,603 and they offered up a plea bargain at the 11th hour, 140 00:07:52,603 --> 00:07:55,403 And said, "Well, if you plead guilty to false accounting, 141 00:07:55,403 --> 00:07:59,283 "we'll drop the theft charge, provided you repay the money." 142 00:07:59,283 --> 00:08:02,203 That meant Jo was forced to borrow 143 00:08:02,203 --> 00:08:07,243 in order to pay back the £36,000 the computer said was missing. 144 00:08:08,563 --> 00:08:12,323 I could only raise £30,000 on the house, 145 00:08:12,323 --> 00:08:14,563 so we had a village meeting. 146 00:08:14,563 --> 00:08:16,843 And I had to explain to everybody 147 00:08:16,843 --> 00:08:19,923 that I was in trouble in the Post Office. 148 00:08:19,923 --> 00:08:23,203 And someone put up their hand and they said, 149 00:08:23,203 --> 00:08:25,683 cos it was November, they said, 150 00:08:25,683 --> 00:08:29,003 "Well, couldn't Jo have an early Christmas present?" 151 00:08:29,003 --> 00:08:31,563 And from the moment I told them, 152 00:08:31,563 --> 00:08:35,283 I thought they were all gonna think I'd stolen money, and they didn't, 153 00:08:35,283 --> 00:08:38,603 it was quite the opposite, and, erm... yeah. 154 00:08:38,603 --> 00:08:40,563 It was very humbling. 155 00:08:40,563 --> 00:08:45,443 Literally thousands of pounds went through the letterbox. 156 00:08:45,443 --> 00:08:50,203 I think we'd reached it in about two weeks, and... Yeah. 157 00:08:50,203 --> 00:08:52,443 INTERVIEWER: Wow. My village. 158 00:08:58,883 --> 00:09:02,563 When she went to court, the village showed up again. 159 00:09:04,203 --> 00:09:05,443 I just looked at the judge, 160 00:09:05,443 --> 00:09:08,443 and he goes, "Well I'm not considering a custodial sentence." 161 00:09:08,443 --> 00:09:10,723 Well, I was literally... 162 00:09:10,723 --> 00:09:13,323 Just the tears were streaming down my face. 163 00:09:14,603 --> 00:09:18,883 Jo was sentenced to a 12-month supervision order. 164 00:09:22,443 --> 00:09:26,523 But there were other people whose ordeals left an even greater mark. 165 00:09:30,323 --> 00:09:32,643 'We had a lot of happy memories here.' 166 00:09:34,043 --> 00:09:36,803 Especially when the children used to come off the bus. 167 00:09:36,803 --> 00:09:39,323 We used to look forward to seeing them after school. 168 00:09:39,323 --> 00:09:42,003 They used to come running across this road. 169 00:09:42,003 --> 00:09:43,563 Yeah. 170 00:09:43,563 --> 00:09:45,963 'They enjoyed being here as well. 171 00:09:45,963 --> 00:09:48,043 'Would've handed it over to them. 172 00:09:49,923 --> 00:09:51,363 'A lot of happy memories.' 173 00:09:53,163 --> 00:09:54,763 But they all got broken. 174 00:09:56,323 --> 00:10:03,363 In 2009, the Post Office charged Jess with the theft of £5,000. 175 00:10:03,363 --> 00:10:06,723 And her face was splashed across the local papers. 176 00:10:08,363 --> 00:10:11,163 Family members actually went round to the shops, local shops, 177 00:10:11,163 --> 00:10:14,283 and gathered as many papers as they could. 178 00:10:14,283 --> 00:10:18,403 It was also in one of the Punjabi papers as well. 179 00:10:18,403 --> 00:10:23,563 So, basically, everybody read that story and pointed fingers. 180 00:10:25,963 --> 00:10:28,723 We had somebody come in and spit on the floor as well. 181 00:10:30,003 --> 00:10:32,123 We had car windows broken. 182 00:10:32,123 --> 00:10:36,923 You know, they did try and, like, traumatise us, really. 183 00:10:39,763 --> 00:10:42,523 I got this feeling that everybody else is thinking 184 00:10:42,523 --> 00:10:44,563 that "she's a thief". 185 00:10:44,563 --> 00:10:49,043 And thinking about it day and night, day and night. 186 00:10:49,043 --> 00:10:50,643 I just wanted to end my life. 187 00:11:00,283 --> 00:11:02,283 I'm showing you the box. 188 00:11:03,603 --> 00:11:05,403 We can cross quickly. 189 00:11:06,723 --> 00:11:09,363 And this is where the Post Office was. 190 00:11:09,363 --> 00:11:13,203 Noel Thomas became a postman at the age of 17. 191 00:11:13,203 --> 00:11:16,443 In 2005, when his nightmare began, 192 00:11:16,443 --> 00:11:19,283 he had only ever worked for the Post Office. 193 00:11:19,283 --> 00:11:21,563 There we are. 194 00:11:21,563 --> 00:11:24,523 We're by the box which was the Post Office 195 00:11:24,523 --> 00:11:30,683 that my wife and I ran for, erm, 36 years. 196 00:11:31,883 --> 00:11:36,243 You know, it was a betrayal, wasn't it, when we lost this? 197 00:11:37,963 --> 00:11:40,723 At half past seven, there was a knock on the door, 198 00:11:40,723 --> 00:11:44,483 and, er, there was a lady and a gentleman in the door, 199 00:11:44,483 --> 00:11:48,523 and said they were Post Office auditors, and so I let them in, 200 00:11:48,523 --> 00:11:52,763 made them a cup of tea, and I told them straightaway that I was, 201 00:11:52,763 --> 00:11:58,763 erm, about £52,000 down, so all hell let loose. 202 00:12:01,203 --> 00:12:05,163 Noel was arrested and questioned at a police station. 203 00:12:06,723 --> 00:12:10,283 She was just, "Where was the money? Where was the money? 204 00:12:10,283 --> 00:12:11,563 "And what did you do with it?" 205 00:12:11,563 --> 00:12:14,123 You know, it was really aggressive. 206 00:12:15,763 --> 00:12:17,883 Then the Post Office did to Noel 207 00:12:17,883 --> 00:12:20,883 what they did to many other subpostmasters. 208 00:12:20,883 --> 00:12:23,243 They offered to drop the theft charge 209 00:12:23,243 --> 00:12:26,723 if he agreed to plead guilty to false accounting. 210 00:12:30,003 --> 00:12:33,283 I remember me telling him, "Will it keep me out of jail?" 211 00:12:33,283 --> 00:12:34,763 And he said, "Yes." 212 00:12:41,923 --> 00:12:45,203 But unfortunately, when I went into court, 213 00:12:45,203 --> 00:12:48,523 er, the judge, erm, came to his sentencing words, 214 00:12:48,523 --> 00:12:53,683 and he said, erm, "Nine months," and he sort of paused. 215 00:12:53,683 --> 00:12:57,763 And I waited for a suspended sentence. 216 00:12:57,763 --> 00:13:01,083 But he said, erm, "Take him down." 217 00:13:02,483 --> 00:13:05,283 'I'd been a councillor, I'd been a postmaster, 218 00:13:05,283 --> 00:13:08,523 'I'd been a postman and, er, highly thought of.' 219 00:13:10,483 --> 00:13:13,603 All of a sudden, er, it was all taken away from me, 220 00:13:13,603 --> 00:13:16,603 like taking a mat from under your feet, if you like. 221 00:13:19,723 --> 00:13:21,723 It was bloody horrible. 222 00:13:38,963 --> 00:13:41,643 'My journalistic life has been dominated by this.' 223 00:13:41,643 --> 00:13:43,923 I mean, it's the biggest story I've worked on. 224 00:13:43,923 --> 00:13:46,123 It's probably the biggest story I'll ever work on. 225 00:13:48,163 --> 00:13:52,563 In 2009, the story hadn't hit the press yet. 226 00:13:52,563 --> 00:13:55,843 Social media was in its infancy. 227 00:13:55,843 --> 00:13:59,603 Even though many subpostmasters were being prosecuted, 228 00:13:59,603 --> 00:14:03,323 each one of them thought they were the only one. 229 00:14:04,643 --> 00:14:07,403 But that was about to change. 230 00:14:07,403 --> 00:14:10,083 This particular article began 231 00:14:10,083 --> 00:14:14,363 because we were contacted by a subpostmaster about his problems. 232 00:14:14,363 --> 00:14:16,843 Often when you get contacted by a single person, 233 00:14:16,843 --> 00:14:18,243 it's very hard to stand up a story. 234 00:14:18,243 --> 00:14:21,323 But one of my former colleagues, an alarm bell rang in his head, 235 00:14:21,323 --> 00:14:23,323 and he thought, "I've heard this before." 236 00:14:23,323 --> 00:14:25,483 And I think it was four years earlier, 237 00:14:25,483 --> 00:14:29,403 he'd been contacted by Alan Bates, who'd had the same problems. 238 00:14:29,403 --> 00:14:32,243 Then they started to build up a picture. 239 00:14:32,243 --> 00:14:33,603 People having the same problems, 240 00:14:33,603 --> 00:14:35,923 people being told the same thing from the Post Office, 241 00:14:35,923 --> 00:14:38,563 which eventually led to them gathering information 242 00:14:38,563 --> 00:14:41,683 about four other subpostmasters and doing this first story. 243 00:14:41,683 --> 00:14:44,803 But we were so worried about legal action. 244 00:14:44,803 --> 00:14:46,403 We didn't publish it for a year. 245 00:14:47,683 --> 00:14:51,003 This was the response from the Post Office. 246 00:15:03,123 --> 00:15:04,803 That was an outright lie. 247 00:15:04,803 --> 00:15:07,683 We knew of seven postmasters who had complained, 248 00:15:07,683 --> 00:15:09,963 and also, we know that computers have problems, 249 00:15:09,963 --> 00:15:11,203 especially complex systems. 250 00:15:12,323 --> 00:15:15,923 Suddenly, subpostmasters who had problems 251 00:15:15,923 --> 00:15:18,683 were seeing the story, contacting each other, 252 00:15:18,683 --> 00:15:20,523 which then started the campaign. 253 00:15:25,963 --> 00:15:27,803 That's the seven from Computer Weekly, 254 00:15:27,803 --> 00:15:31,963 then there's, er, two that came via our website. 255 00:15:31,963 --> 00:15:34,003 But where are all the others? 256 00:15:34,003 --> 00:15:36,963 So we thought, "Let's see if we can get people together, 257 00:15:36,963 --> 00:15:40,283 "and let's see how big the problem actually is." 258 00:15:40,283 --> 00:15:41,763 Somewhere central. 259 00:15:44,523 --> 00:15:47,683 Fenny... Compton. 260 00:15:52,283 --> 00:15:55,403 We didn't know if anyone was gonna turn up, but, er, 261 00:15:55,403 --> 00:15:58,003 slowly but surely, people turned up. 262 00:16:01,163 --> 00:16:06,803 We all sat round in a circle telling our stories, 263 00:16:06,803 --> 00:16:10,883 and you almost felt embarrassed about having to say, 264 00:16:10,883 --> 00:16:14,403 "Oh, I'm Jo, and I've been done for £36,000." 265 00:16:14,403 --> 00:16:18,843 But I realised, "Oh, my God, we're all exactly the same." 266 00:16:18,843 --> 00:16:20,683 That's when the stories... 267 00:16:20,683 --> 00:16:23,843 A jigsaw started coming together, if you know what I mean. 268 00:16:23,843 --> 00:16:26,923 And we'd all had our lives completely tipped upside down. 269 00:16:26,923 --> 00:16:31,283 People had been losing houses, cashing in their pensions, 270 00:16:31,283 --> 00:16:33,683 they'd been borrowing money off relatives, 271 00:16:33,683 --> 00:16:35,483 marriages were splitting up. 272 00:16:37,163 --> 00:16:40,883 We all looked like we'd been in a war 273 00:16:40,883 --> 00:16:44,203 and just weary with the stress that we'd been put through, 274 00:16:44,203 --> 00:16:45,803 and the shame of it. 275 00:16:45,803 --> 00:16:48,323 It was diabolical. 276 00:16:48,323 --> 00:16:52,723 But that's when we knew something had to be done about it. 277 00:16:53,923 --> 00:16:57,283 And that's when we picked Alan Bates as chairman. 278 00:16:57,283 --> 00:16:59,363 That was really the start of everything, 279 00:16:59,363 --> 00:17:01,163 and that's where the JFSA, 280 00:17:01,163 --> 00:17:05,043 Justice For Subpostmasters Alliance, was born. 281 00:17:05,043 --> 00:17:10,123 It was like a switch got turned, and the Post Office was the enemy. 282 00:17:11,443 --> 00:17:15,963 They'd gone from this trusted brand to a monster. 283 00:17:15,963 --> 00:17:18,483 And it was like, "We are gonna get them." 284 00:17:41,163 --> 00:17:44,283 This is the view I have of him most of the time. 285 00:17:44,283 --> 00:17:46,923 I mean, most mornings, this is what he's doing, 286 00:17:46,923 --> 00:17:49,603 and as you can see, he's still in his dressing gown. 287 00:17:52,563 --> 00:17:56,283 TOBY JONES: For the past 20 years, Alan and his partner, Suzanne, 288 00:17:56,283 --> 00:17:59,923 have had their lives dominated by one thing. 289 00:17:59,923 --> 00:18:04,043 The whole of this Post Office issue has, er, turned into probably 290 00:18:04,043 --> 00:18:07,923 the worst unpaid full-time job you can imagine. 291 00:18:10,603 --> 00:18:12,923 I'm gonna do the cat, 292 00:18:12,923 --> 00:18:15,523 and I'll have her sitting down on the carpet here, 293 00:18:15,523 --> 00:18:16,763 looking up at him as if to say, 294 00:18:16,763 --> 00:18:18,923 "Well, when are you gonna finish, you know? 295 00:18:18,923 --> 00:18:20,923 "When are you gonna take a break?" 296 00:18:22,883 --> 00:18:28,083 Because you are hearing stories of such distress and family ruin. 297 00:18:28,083 --> 00:18:32,123 So you couldn't give up working on something like this 298 00:18:32,123 --> 00:18:34,803 because it developed a life of its own. 299 00:18:34,803 --> 00:18:36,843 And it wasn't just me. 300 00:18:36,843 --> 00:18:39,323 Other people were chasing their own MPs. 301 00:18:43,403 --> 00:18:46,483 The good thing about being an MP is, 302 00:18:46,483 --> 00:18:50,843 if you contact someone like the Chairman of the Post Office 303 00:18:50,843 --> 00:18:53,523 and say, "I'd like to meet you to talk this through," 304 00:18:53,523 --> 00:18:55,563 they tend to respond. 305 00:18:55,563 --> 00:18:58,483 Erm, Mrs Hamilton? That's me. 306 00:18:58,483 --> 00:19:01,203 James Arbuthnot. Thank you for coming. 307 00:19:01,203 --> 00:19:04,883 'He came out to the shop and met my parents.' 308 00:19:04,883 --> 00:19:08,443 And he was just a thoroughly decent guy. 309 00:19:08,443 --> 00:19:11,323 There are two other cases in my constituency alone. 310 00:19:11,323 --> 00:19:14,083 Wow, really? It's very odd, isn't it? 311 00:19:14,083 --> 00:19:17,443 I thought, "There's something obviously not right." 312 00:19:17,443 --> 00:19:20,123 'And so I went to see 313 00:19:20,123 --> 00:19:23,523 'the then Chief Executive of the Post Office, Paula Vennells.' 314 00:19:24,883 --> 00:19:27,323 We're the ones who are going to keep the Post Office 315 00:19:27,323 --> 00:19:30,683 as relevant and as loved and as trusted in the communities 316 00:19:30,683 --> 00:19:32,523 that it is today. 317 00:19:32,523 --> 00:19:37,043 Paula Vennells was hired by the Post Office in 2007. 318 00:19:37,043 --> 00:19:40,723 By 2012, she'd worked her way up to the top job, 319 00:19:40,723 --> 00:19:43,643 and used her in-house PR 320 00:19:43,643 --> 00:19:46,683 to highlight her commitment to subpostmasters. 321 00:19:46,683 --> 00:19:48,923 I say this very specifically, actually, 322 00:19:48,923 --> 00:19:50,523 putting our subpostmasters 323 00:19:50,523 --> 00:19:53,763 and the colleagues who work in our agency branches 324 00:19:53,763 --> 00:19:56,363 right at the forefront of everything we think about. 325 00:19:58,923 --> 00:20:03,523 It was Paula Vennells who suggested that what we needed 326 00:20:03,523 --> 00:20:07,883 was forensic accountants to go into the allegations, 327 00:20:07,883 --> 00:20:11,243 and we said, "That's exactly what we need. 328 00:20:11,243 --> 00:20:13,243 "Who would you recommend?" 329 00:20:14,843 --> 00:20:18,843 Ron Warmington runs Second Sight. 330 00:20:18,843 --> 00:20:20,443 I was Head of Investigations 331 00:20:20,443 --> 00:20:22,563 for one of the world's biggest banks for many years. 332 00:20:22,563 --> 00:20:24,043 And now I'm meant to be retired. 333 00:20:24,043 --> 00:20:26,483 The only reason I'm not retired is because of this case. 334 00:20:27,883 --> 00:20:32,003 Ron's investigation was paid for by the Post Office itself. 335 00:20:34,083 --> 00:20:37,683 But, obviously, we had very serious concerns that 336 00:20:37,683 --> 00:20:39,203 it's gonna be a bit of a whitewash. 337 00:20:40,363 --> 00:20:45,723 So Alan and the MPs brought in their own top forensic accountant. 338 00:20:45,723 --> 00:20:49,283 RON: Kay Linnell flew at me like a tigress. 339 00:20:49,283 --> 00:20:52,203 I don't doubt your paper qualifications, 340 00:20:52,203 --> 00:20:56,123 I have them here in front of me, but I see nothing to persuade me 341 00:20:56,123 --> 00:20:59,443 that Second Sight is remotely capable 342 00:20:59,443 --> 00:21:01,763 of producing a truly independent report. 343 00:21:01,763 --> 00:21:06,163 Clearly suspecting that either we were hired to do a whitewash 344 00:21:06,163 --> 00:21:08,803 or that we'd be hopelessly incompetent - 345 00:21:08,803 --> 00:21:10,243 probably, she thought both. 346 00:21:11,243 --> 00:21:14,163 The involvement with the Post Office 347 00:21:14,163 --> 00:21:17,443 started with Jo Hamilton, my local subpostmistress. 348 00:21:17,443 --> 00:21:21,003 Kay volunteered to help the subpostmasters. 349 00:21:21,003 --> 00:21:23,483 I had no idea how long it would take, 350 00:21:23,483 --> 00:21:27,043 but I knew we had a room of people who had lost everything 351 00:21:27,043 --> 00:21:28,883 or were losing everything, 352 00:21:28,883 --> 00:21:32,883 and people were still being prosecuted almost on a daily basis. 353 00:21:32,883 --> 00:21:35,283 And I knew we had to do something 354 00:21:35,283 --> 00:21:38,683 to try and stop the tide or raise the profile. 355 00:21:40,883 --> 00:21:44,763 She clearly was exactly the person we needed. 356 00:21:44,763 --> 00:21:47,443 Having had that meeting with Ron and Ian, 357 00:21:47,443 --> 00:21:49,403 which I suspect they will remember, 358 00:21:49,403 --> 00:21:52,443 I was satisfied they would do an independent job. 359 00:21:58,403 --> 00:22:02,563 Ron's team began their investigation in 2012. 360 00:22:02,563 --> 00:22:05,163 At that time, the Post Office continued 361 00:22:05,163 --> 00:22:07,643 to prosecute subpostmasters. 362 00:22:11,843 --> 00:22:15,243 Basically, I was told I was going to get two years in prison. 363 00:22:17,923 --> 00:22:19,363 In the West Midlands, 364 00:22:19,363 --> 00:22:23,283 Jess was convinced a faulty PIN pad on her Horizon terminal 365 00:22:23,283 --> 00:22:25,643 had caused the shortfall. 366 00:22:25,643 --> 00:22:30,123 And she pleaded not guilty to theft. 367 00:22:30,123 --> 00:22:33,603 But the case dragged on for three years. 368 00:22:35,483 --> 00:22:38,363 Went to numerous courts up and down the country. 369 00:22:38,363 --> 00:22:40,363 In Wolverhampton Crown Court, 370 00:22:40,363 --> 00:22:42,283 the judge said, "Where's the PIN pad?" 371 00:22:42,283 --> 00:22:44,523 And the Post Office said, 372 00:22:44,523 --> 00:22:47,443 "The PIN pad's been taken away for repair." 373 00:22:47,443 --> 00:22:49,563 And so the judge said, "Well... 374 00:22:49,563 --> 00:22:52,163 "If it's gone for repair, it was faulty." 375 00:22:52,163 --> 00:22:55,683 That's when it all got thrown out, basically. 376 00:22:56,923 --> 00:23:00,483 By then, the damage had been done. 377 00:23:00,483 --> 00:23:02,523 The stress that we'd been through, 378 00:23:02,523 --> 00:23:07,123 the trauma that we'd been through, lied to, bullied, 379 00:23:07,123 --> 00:23:09,923 it all mounted up, and I ended up in hospital. 380 00:23:09,923 --> 00:23:12,083 And I-I went to commit suicide. 381 00:23:16,563 --> 00:23:19,123 I even tried to commit suicide in hospital. 382 00:23:24,163 --> 00:23:25,803 Jess was so ill, 383 00:23:25,803 --> 00:23:29,683 the doctors decided to treat her with electroconvulsive therapy. 384 00:23:33,043 --> 00:23:35,043 All I remember is they used to put this... 385 00:23:35,043 --> 00:23:37,323 Like a helmet type thing on my head. 386 00:23:37,323 --> 00:23:39,563 And the shockwaves were going through my brain. 387 00:23:39,563 --> 00:23:43,203 So I had... I think I had 14 treatments like that. 388 00:23:46,403 --> 00:23:48,803 After that, I lost all my memory. 389 00:23:51,363 --> 00:23:54,443 I don't remember anything from my childhood. 390 00:23:56,323 --> 00:23:58,963 I couldn't sleep unless I had sleeping tablets. 391 00:23:58,963 --> 00:24:01,483 Put me on numerous medication... 392 00:24:03,603 --> 00:24:05,563 ..which I'm still on today. 393 00:24:05,563 --> 00:24:08,443 And it's all down to the Post Office. 394 00:24:16,763 --> 00:24:20,163 During Ron's investigation, it became clear 395 00:24:20,163 --> 00:24:23,683 the Post Office had some serious questions to answer. 396 00:24:25,843 --> 00:24:29,883 There were documents which looked extremely suspicious, 397 00:24:29,883 --> 00:24:34,123 very poor investigative processes that were directed 398 00:24:34,123 --> 00:24:38,163 blatantly at simply recovering assets 399 00:24:38,163 --> 00:24:42,923 by trying to get the easiest conviction possible, 400 00:24:42,923 --> 00:24:44,763 which generally was false accounting, 401 00:24:44,763 --> 00:24:50,963 using as a cudgel, bluffing that they had a theft case. 402 00:24:53,083 --> 00:24:56,323 I'm pretty used to being able to detect crooks. 403 00:24:56,323 --> 00:24:57,963 But when I really dug deeper, 404 00:24:57,963 --> 00:25:00,203 I didn't find any evidence of theft at all. 405 00:25:09,003 --> 00:25:12,123 We didn't know whether the investigation would work, 406 00:25:12,123 --> 00:25:16,163 but the very fact that they had access to Post Office's data, 407 00:25:16,163 --> 00:25:18,243 erm, seemed quite promising. 408 00:25:18,243 --> 00:25:21,643 And at that time, we did understand 409 00:25:21,643 --> 00:25:25,403 that Post Office... did actually want to get to the truth. 410 00:25:26,963 --> 00:25:28,803 I felt we were getting somewhere. 411 00:25:30,803 --> 00:25:35,843 Ha, little did I know how long the journey was gonna be. 412 00:25:49,003 --> 00:25:54,083 Remote access to the system was always a huge concern. 413 00:25:54,083 --> 00:25:55,843 And the reason why 414 00:25:55,843 --> 00:26:00,923 was it meant that someone else could be accessing your accounts 415 00:26:00,923 --> 00:26:04,843 on your counter in your Post Office, and you did not know about it. 416 00:26:09,643 --> 00:26:12,803 When the Post Office rolled out their new computer system, 417 00:26:12,803 --> 00:26:18,003 every subpostmaster's computer was hard-wired to a central hub. 418 00:26:18,003 --> 00:26:20,803 This was located at the headquarters of the company 419 00:26:20,803 --> 00:26:24,883 who designed and managed Horizon, Fujitsu. 420 00:26:27,163 --> 00:26:29,403 Post Office were quite adamant that no-one else 421 00:26:29,403 --> 00:26:33,843 could ever access the systems or do anything like this at all. 422 00:26:33,843 --> 00:26:35,123 And that was something 423 00:26:35,123 --> 00:26:38,003 that we wanted Second Sight to prove had occurred, 424 00:26:38,003 --> 00:26:39,363 or how it had occurred. 425 00:26:45,603 --> 00:26:50,083 I went to Fujitsu headquarters with the intention of helping 426 00:26:50,083 --> 00:26:52,163 and looking at the system, 427 00:26:52,163 --> 00:26:57,003 and how we accounted for bureau de change within branches. 428 00:26:59,283 --> 00:27:01,563 Er, Michael Rudkin to see George Delph. 429 00:27:01,563 --> 00:27:03,843 That was the purpose of my visit. 430 00:27:06,003 --> 00:27:08,803 'I arrived, as scheduled, about ten o'clock in the morning.' 431 00:27:08,803 --> 00:27:10,883 Cheers. 'Went into reception.' 432 00:27:10,883 --> 00:27:13,563 Mr Rudkin, George Delph, hi. 433 00:27:13,563 --> 00:27:16,283 'Within a few minutes, my chaperone arrived.' 434 00:27:16,283 --> 00:27:20,123 I was really taken aback by the number of security doors 435 00:27:20,123 --> 00:27:21,523 that we had to pass through. 436 00:27:23,243 --> 00:27:27,643 I was encouraged to enter into the boiler room by my chaperone. 437 00:27:27,643 --> 00:27:31,363 And in doing so, I then recognised to the right-hand side of me, 438 00:27:31,363 --> 00:27:35,043 there's two Horizon terminals on this workbench. 439 00:27:35,043 --> 00:27:39,083 One of the guys not happy with my presence gets up and walks out. 440 00:27:39,083 --> 00:27:40,843 My chaperone said, 441 00:27:40,843 --> 00:27:45,603 "This is my covert operations team and my covert operations room." 442 00:27:45,603 --> 00:27:48,643 He proceeded to enter into this particular account, 443 00:27:48,643 --> 00:27:51,683 and he started, er, altering figures, 444 00:27:51,683 --> 00:27:54,723 which I said to him, "Is this real-time?" 445 00:27:54,723 --> 00:27:56,283 He says, "Look, I'll just prove it." 446 00:27:56,283 --> 00:27:59,603 He says, "I'll alter the Euro figures in this branch's accounts." 447 00:27:59,603 --> 00:28:04,843 You're inside some subpostmaster's Horizon, and he doesn't know? 448 00:28:04,843 --> 00:28:06,643 In total disbelief, I said, 449 00:28:06,643 --> 00:28:09,803 "Are you sure you can alter these figures in real time?" 450 00:28:09,803 --> 00:28:11,643 And he said, "Yes." 451 00:28:11,643 --> 00:28:13,843 I said, "Well, for your information..." 452 00:28:13,843 --> 00:28:16,803 I've been telling my members for years, 453 00:28:16,803 --> 00:28:19,483 no-one else has access to their branch accounts. 454 00:28:19,483 --> 00:28:23,523 ' "And here you are proving that you've got remote access." ' 455 00:28:23,523 --> 00:28:27,203 At which there was an immediate look of disdain on his face, 456 00:28:27,203 --> 00:28:28,643 and then ushered me out, 457 00:28:28,643 --> 00:28:31,123 and more or less thrown out as though I was... 458 00:28:32,883 --> 00:28:33,923 ..a thief. 459 00:28:35,403 --> 00:28:39,083 I said to Michael, "Your story is really, really interesting. 460 00:28:39,083 --> 00:28:42,083 "But Post Office, of course, 461 00:28:42,083 --> 00:28:45,003 "will ask for evidence to support what you're saying. 462 00:28:45,003 --> 00:28:47,803 "So we need to find the visitors book." 463 00:28:47,803 --> 00:28:51,963 The so-called visitors book that I signed, 464 00:28:51,963 --> 00:28:56,163 ironically, is the only visitors book that's disappeared. 465 00:28:56,163 --> 00:29:01,243 "So, Michael, you need to have a look through your email records 466 00:29:01,243 --> 00:29:04,323 "to see if you can find the invitation that came through to you, 467 00:29:04,323 --> 00:29:07,763 "so get to it, Michael, I need it, and I need it quickly." 468 00:29:07,763 --> 00:29:10,003 I had a telephone conversation with Ron. 469 00:29:10,003 --> 00:29:13,803 I said, "I have the evidence. Are you in front of your computer?" 470 00:29:13,803 --> 00:29:15,723 He said, "Yes." 471 00:29:15,723 --> 00:29:18,243 I said, "Well, I'm pressing send now." I did. 472 00:29:20,083 --> 00:29:22,243 The reply came back. 473 00:29:22,243 --> 00:29:27,083 "Oh, my effing good God. 474 00:29:27,083 --> 00:29:31,363 "They are now going to become a hostage to fortune." 475 00:29:32,523 --> 00:29:35,803 The day after Michael's visit to Fujitsu, 476 00:29:35,803 --> 00:29:38,443 Post Office officials paid him a visit. 477 00:29:38,443 --> 00:29:41,363 What come as an even greater shock 478 00:29:41,363 --> 00:29:44,323 was the orders that then came into my bedroom at 8:30 479 00:29:44,323 --> 00:29:48,363 that following morning, sat on the edge of my bed, and said, 480 00:29:48,363 --> 00:29:51,323 "You've got a £44,000 shortage in your office." 481 00:29:51,323 --> 00:29:53,323 My wife, Susan, who's managing the branch, 482 00:29:53,323 --> 00:29:57,403 ended up being convicted with 300 hours community service, 483 00:29:57,403 --> 00:30:00,203 electronically tagged for six months. 484 00:30:00,203 --> 00:30:03,643 She had to live through and endure that experience. 485 00:30:09,483 --> 00:30:15,323 In 2013, Second Sight published their initial findings. 486 00:30:20,643 --> 00:30:24,243 With Ron's report in the public domain, 487 00:30:24,243 --> 00:30:27,083 Post Office management changed their approach. 488 00:30:28,683 --> 00:30:31,843 Paula Vennells rang me up to say, 489 00:30:31,843 --> 00:30:34,683 "What we're proposing is a mediation scheme 490 00:30:34,683 --> 00:30:39,043 "between the subpostmasters and the Post Office, 491 00:30:39,043 --> 00:30:42,723 "with a senior judge as the mediator. 492 00:30:42,723 --> 00:30:46,443 "And that will be able to get to the bottom of all these cases." 493 00:30:46,443 --> 00:30:49,523 And I said, "Well, that sounds right and proper. 494 00:30:49,523 --> 00:30:51,083 "Let's go ahead with that." 495 00:30:57,043 --> 00:31:00,843 Alan put forward 150 cases for the new scheme. 496 00:31:05,763 --> 00:31:10,403 The whole process was only meant to take X amount of months in total. 497 00:31:10,403 --> 00:31:12,603 It was running into years. 498 00:31:12,603 --> 00:31:16,043 You're supposed to go to mediation with a willingness to settle, 499 00:31:16,043 --> 00:31:18,843 but it appeared that the Post Office was sending two lawyers 500 00:31:18,843 --> 00:31:20,123 who turned up and said, 501 00:31:20,123 --> 00:31:24,083 "You're out of time to make a claim, it's over six years old. Forget it." 502 00:31:24,083 --> 00:31:26,323 I think they were actually uncovering the real truth 503 00:31:26,323 --> 00:31:27,523 of what had been going on, 504 00:31:27,523 --> 00:31:29,683 and they didn't want to come forward with it. 505 00:31:34,043 --> 00:31:37,403 The Post Office has spent public money on a mediation scheme 506 00:31:37,403 --> 00:31:41,163 which they themselves have set out to sabotage. 507 00:31:41,163 --> 00:31:43,643 In Westminster, James Arbuthnot 508 00:31:43,643 --> 00:31:47,163 was working hard to keep the case in the public eye. 509 00:31:47,163 --> 00:31:51,363 And they've broken their word to Members of Parliament 510 00:31:51,363 --> 00:31:54,403 in so many different respects that it is frankly bewildering. 511 00:31:58,483 --> 00:32:01,883 If you could just introduce yourself for voice transcription purposes. 512 00:32:01,883 --> 00:32:04,363 Paula Vennells, Chief Executive of Post Office. 513 00:32:04,363 --> 00:32:07,683 And then Paula was called in to face MPs. 514 00:32:07,683 --> 00:32:11,563 'People do not like appearing in front of select committees.' 515 00:32:11,563 --> 00:32:16,043 Because the select committee may get to the bottom of things 516 00:32:16,043 --> 00:32:18,843 that the witnesses may prefer that they didn't. 517 00:32:18,843 --> 00:32:20,363 Before the hearing, 518 00:32:20,363 --> 00:32:24,843 Paula Vennells asked colleagues to help clarify what she should say. 519 00:32:24,843 --> 00:32:26,763 Here we go. 520 00:32:26,763 --> 00:32:30,443 A copy of her email has since come to light. 521 00:32:30,443 --> 00:32:32,963 "Urgent: Accessing Horizon. 522 00:32:32,963 --> 00:32:36,203 "Dear both, your help, please, in prep for the SC, 523 00:32:36,203 --> 00:32:38,083 "the select committee hearing." 524 00:32:44,323 --> 00:32:46,483 That's obviously the question she's being warned 525 00:32:46,483 --> 00:32:48,363 she's gonna have to answer. 526 00:33:06,763 --> 00:33:09,083 This is a system that works well, 527 00:33:09,083 --> 00:33:11,323 and it works well for the vast majority of people. 528 00:33:11,323 --> 00:33:14,643 For those it doesn't work for, we are doing our utmost. 529 00:33:14,643 --> 00:33:17,723 I've got Nadhim, and then I've got Brian... 530 00:33:17,723 --> 00:33:21,923 The MPs wanted to know why the Post Office had been obstructive 531 00:33:21,923 --> 00:33:25,203 during Second Sight's investigation. 532 00:33:25,203 --> 00:33:27,843 Paula, why don't you give those files over? 533 00:33:27,843 --> 00:33:30,243 What's the problem? Erm, so, I... 534 00:33:30,243 --> 00:33:32,563 I think the point I want to pick up first, if I may... 535 00:33:32,563 --> 00:33:35,163 No, just... No, answer my question first. 536 00:33:35,163 --> 00:33:37,803 Why won't you give Ian Henderson those files? Why? 537 00:33:37,803 --> 00:33:39,883 We have... As far as I'm aware, Mr Zahawi, 538 00:33:39,883 --> 00:33:42,843 we have shared whatever information was appropriate on every single... 539 00:33:42,843 --> 00:33:44,483 That's not what Ian Henderson's saying. 540 00:33:44,483 --> 00:33:46,483 It is the first time personally I have heard that. 541 00:33:46,483 --> 00:33:48,283 You're the head of the organisation. 542 00:33:48,283 --> 00:33:50,003 Will you provide it? Yes or no? Simple. 543 00:33:50,003 --> 00:33:52,043 I'm not prepared, on behalf of the Post Office... 544 00:33:52,043 --> 00:33:53,923 Right, I've got my answer, so you won't... 545 00:33:53,923 --> 00:33:56,763 No, you haven't got your answer, you haven't heard a yes or no. 546 00:33:56,763 --> 00:33:58,843 I'm simply saying that at the moment, 547 00:33:58,843 --> 00:34:01,083 I'm not able to answer your question. 548 00:34:01,083 --> 00:34:03,643 'It was pointed out to her time after time 549 00:34:03,643 --> 00:34:06,763 'that she was in charge and the decisions were with her.' 550 00:34:06,763 --> 00:34:11,123 But it just seemed to wash over her. 551 00:34:11,123 --> 00:34:13,083 Well, this sounds like a shambles to me. 552 00:34:13,083 --> 00:34:16,203 You came in here, opened by saying the system's working beautifully. 553 00:34:16,203 --> 00:34:19,803 You now realise why you're in front of the committee, is that right? 554 00:34:19,803 --> 00:34:22,723 The system... The reason... Ian said... 555 00:34:22,723 --> 00:34:26,323 ALAN: I just couldn't understand why, even after that, 556 00:34:26,323 --> 00:34:29,803 she didn't take things on board and actually be honest and own up 557 00:34:29,803 --> 00:34:31,603 and actually try and resolve it, 558 00:34:31,603 --> 00:34:33,403 which she should've done far earlier. 559 00:34:33,403 --> 00:34:36,243 I'm very sorry that I can't answer that. It's.. 560 00:34:37,523 --> 00:34:41,403 JO: When I listened to the evidence from Paula Vennells... 561 00:34:42,843 --> 00:34:47,283 ..I realised what we were gonna be up against, 562 00:34:47,283 --> 00:34:49,123 and just what it looks like. 563 00:34:49,123 --> 00:34:51,363 I have been told that we're providing information. 564 00:34:51,363 --> 00:34:55,443 It looks like it's a massive corporate cover-up. 565 00:34:57,923 --> 00:35:01,363 Then, a few weeks after the select committee hearing, 566 00:35:01,363 --> 00:35:04,963 the Post Office changed their approach again. 567 00:35:04,963 --> 00:35:09,083 Post Office dynamited the mediation working group 568 00:35:09,083 --> 00:35:10,563 and fired everybody. 569 00:35:10,563 --> 00:35:13,283 I think at that stage, 570 00:35:13,283 --> 00:35:19,403 she decided it was preferable to cover up the injustice 571 00:35:19,403 --> 00:35:25,123 and to allow these subpostmasters to go to the wall. 572 00:35:25,123 --> 00:35:27,523 And I think that's shocking. 573 00:35:33,683 --> 00:35:36,963 We were growing information, we were growing data. 574 00:35:38,883 --> 00:35:41,203 TOBY JONES: For more than ten years, 575 00:35:41,203 --> 00:35:43,723 Alan Bates and his team of campaigners 576 00:35:43,723 --> 00:35:46,603 had been carefully gathering evidence bit by bit 577 00:35:46,603 --> 00:35:48,763 against the Post Office. 578 00:35:48,763 --> 00:35:50,843 Because we had those documents, 579 00:35:50,843 --> 00:35:55,403 there was a possibility then of starting some sort of litigation 580 00:35:55,403 --> 00:35:58,683 in the civil courts against the Post Office. 581 00:35:58,683 --> 00:36:03,763 If we could find a legal firm to take it on board for us. 582 00:36:05,963 --> 00:36:07,723 REPORTER: 'The headlines this morning. 583 00:36:07,723 --> 00:36:10,323 'A report has criticised the Post Office for sacking 584 00:36:10,323 --> 00:36:11,923 'or prosecuting subpostmasters 585 00:36:11,923 --> 00:36:15,163 'without establishing the cause of cash shortfalls 586 00:36:15,163 --> 00:36:16,563 'at their branches.' 587 00:36:16,563 --> 00:36:19,683 Driving into work, normal day, into Leeds, 588 00:36:19,683 --> 00:36:23,763 and I heard a BBC radio programme. 589 00:36:23,763 --> 00:36:26,283 'If the cash recorded by the computer system 590 00:36:26,283 --> 00:36:30,683 'does not match up with the cash that's actually held at the branch, 591 00:36:30,683 --> 00:36:33,563 'then they are held responsible for it.' 592 00:36:33,563 --> 00:36:36,243 I thought, "There may be something we could do about this to help," 593 00:36:36,243 --> 00:36:40,123 because it didn't sound right, so I contacted Alan Bates. 594 00:36:40,123 --> 00:36:41,843 I explained the case to him, 595 00:36:41,843 --> 00:36:44,803 I showed him the type of evidence that we had at the time. 596 00:36:44,803 --> 00:36:47,443 And I explained we had no money at all, 597 00:36:47,443 --> 00:36:49,203 but we felt there was a case there. 598 00:36:49,203 --> 00:36:52,163 So I needed to weigh up whether or not 599 00:36:52,163 --> 00:36:55,563 we could raise the necessary litigation funding. 600 00:36:55,563 --> 00:37:00,363 There are specialist funders who are willing to take the risk, 601 00:37:00,363 --> 00:37:02,603 but only if there are enough of you. 602 00:37:02,603 --> 00:37:06,483 Because otherwise we knew that Post Office would outspend us 603 00:37:06,483 --> 00:37:07,723 and we would lose. 604 00:37:07,723 --> 00:37:10,363 The only way that we were gonna be able to break through this 605 00:37:10,363 --> 00:37:13,963 and uncover it was a full-scale group action. 606 00:37:13,963 --> 00:37:18,883 Group litigation orders are used when you've got very poor claimants 607 00:37:18,883 --> 00:37:22,003 and they've got enough similarity in their cases 608 00:37:22,003 --> 00:37:24,243 that you can literally fund one case 609 00:37:24,243 --> 00:37:26,843 and solve a lot of people's problems. 610 00:37:26,843 --> 00:37:29,083 It was the only way, and to do that, 611 00:37:29,083 --> 00:37:31,803 we needed a much larger group of postmasters. 612 00:37:31,803 --> 00:37:33,803 How many would you need? 613 00:37:33,803 --> 00:37:36,403 At least 500. 614 00:37:41,363 --> 00:37:44,123 The meeting kicked off a nationwide search 615 00:37:44,123 --> 00:37:45,803 to find subpostmasters 616 00:37:45,803 --> 00:37:48,723 who'd had problems with Horizon. 617 00:37:48,723 --> 00:37:54,123 Eventually, 555 people pursued a group litigation order 618 00:37:54,123 --> 00:37:56,123 against the Post Office. 619 00:37:56,123 --> 00:38:00,123 The case against Post Office was very much to expose 620 00:38:00,123 --> 00:38:03,363 the way individuals had been mistreated in there. 621 00:38:03,363 --> 00:38:07,523 The lack of information that was available from Post Office. 622 00:38:07,523 --> 00:38:10,803 The flaws in the system they'd never owned up to. 623 00:38:10,803 --> 00:38:15,483 The denial that had happened, the bullying that had gone on. 624 00:38:15,483 --> 00:38:21,203 The abuse of individuals, the way that they'd raided people's houses. 625 00:38:21,203 --> 00:38:25,443 The way they'd been so high-handed, God almighty, didn't give a damn, 626 00:38:25,443 --> 00:38:27,803 their Post Office and they can do what they want - 627 00:38:27,803 --> 00:38:29,963 that's what we wanted exposing. 628 00:38:31,243 --> 00:38:34,363 Alan had found the lawyers, they'd got the funding. 629 00:38:34,363 --> 00:38:35,803 And we were on. 630 00:38:38,003 --> 00:38:41,083 Alan and the Justice For Subpostmasters Alliance 631 00:38:41,083 --> 00:38:46,003 finally took the Post Office to court to seek financial redress. 632 00:38:47,763 --> 00:38:50,723 Well, I went four days after my mum died. 633 00:38:52,043 --> 00:38:55,763 She'd said to me, "Please don't stop." 634 00:38:55,763 --> 00:38:57,643 And she said, "I'll be with you. 635 00:38:59,283 --> 00:39:01,603 "Wherever you are, I'll be with you." 636 00:39:01,603 --> 00:39:04,403 And, erm, yeah, four days later, I went to court. 637 00:39:07,523 --> 00:39:11,843 Among Alan's group of 555 subpostmasters 638 00:39:11,843 --> 00:39:15,843 were people whose lives had been devastated by the Post Office. 639 00:39:15,843 --> 00:39:20,643 Many had been bankrupted, prosecuted or imprisoned. 640 00:39:20,643 --> 00:39:24,443 Gathering enough evidence at the beginning of the case 641 00:39:24,443 --> 00:39:27,483 was challenging because Post Office had the evidence, 642 00:39:27,483 --> 00:39:29,923 which meant we were having to build the case 643 00:39:29,923 --> 00:39:32,083 with one arm tied behind our backs. 644 00:39:33,283 --> 00:39:37,523 But during the case, the Post Office was forced to disclose evidence 645 00:39:37,523 --> 00:39:40,843 they'd always claimed was irrelevant. 646 00:39:40,843 --> 00:39:43,963 So, what we've got here is a known-error log. 647 00:39:43,963 --> 00:39:47,363 So what this records is the fact that there were internet problems, 648 00:39:47,363 --> 00:39:48,963 network problems, 649 00:39:48,963 --> 00:39:51,923 which were causing the error in the system, 650 00:39:51,923 --> 00:39:54,163 which in turn were messing up the figures 651 00:39:54,163 --> 00:39:56,323 and causing a financial discrepancy. 652 00:39:56,323 --> 00:40:01,643 This particular example showed that the transaction that had gone wrong 653 00:40:01,643 --> 00:40:03,523 needed to be manually corrected. 654 00:40:03,523 --> 00:40:08,963 They had teams and teams of people doing it all day long, year on year. 655 00:40:08,963 --> 00:40:13,603 Quite often in litigation cases, in court cases, lawyers will say, 656 00:40:13,603 --> 00:40:16,363 "Well, very rarely are we ever gonna find a smoking gun." 657 00:40:16,363 --> 00:40:18,403 These were smoking guns. 658 00:40:18,403 --> 00:40:22,403 Not just one smoking gun, multiple smoking guns, 659 00:40:22,403 --> 00:40:25,523 which prove to us and prove to the court 660 00:40:25,523 --> 00:40:28,163 that there were multiple problems in the system, 661 00:40:28,163 --> 00:40:31,643 there had been from day one when it was installed. 662 00:40:31,643 --> 00:40:35,123 And that was why Post Office lost the court case. 663 00:40:37,323 --> 00:40:39,603 At the end of the court hearings, 664 00:40:39,603 --> 00:40:43,923 Justice Fraser delivered a 330-page judgement 665 00:40:43,923 --> 00:40:47,403 outlining his findings on the Horizon system. 666 00:40:47,403 --> 00:40:50,803 On the day the judgement was handed down, 667 00:40:50,803 --> 00:40:54,403 our side was totally crammed with people. 668 00:40:54,403 --> 00:40:57,883 The other side of the court, there were just two people. 669 00:40:57,883 --> 00:41:00,363 They knew what was gonna happen, 670 00:41:00,363 --> 00:41:04,923 they knew which way this judgement was going to land, and it did. 671 00:41:04,923 --> 00:41:10,123 Mr Justice Fraser's Horizon Issues judgement: 672 00:41:10,123 --> 00:41:12,123 "This approach by the Post Office 673 00:41:12,123 --> 00:41:16,883 "has amounted, in reality, to bear assertions and denials..." 674 00:41:16,883 --> 00:41:19,163 "..that ignore what has actually occurred." 675 00:41:19,163 --> 00:41:22,443 "It amounts to the 21st-century equivalent 676 00:41:22,443 --> 00:41:25,523 "of maintaining that the Earth is flat." 677 00:41:25,523 --> 00:41:28,563 SHE GIGGLES Good old Justice Fraser. 678 00:41:28,563 --> 00:41:31,763 The judge said there seemed to be a culture of secrecy 679 00:41:31,763 --> 00:41:35,203 and excessive confidentially within the Post Office. 680 00:41:35,203 --> 00:41:37,443 THEY CHEER 681 00:41:37,443 --> 00:41:40,403 We couldn't be more happy with the judgement from the court. 682 00:41:40,403 --> 00:41:43,563 This has been the result of many years' work 683 00:41:43,563 --> 00:41:48,203 to achieve justice for over 550 people. 684 00:41:48,203 --> 00:41:51,843 It was overwhelming. It was utterly, utterly damning of Post Office, 685 00:41:51,843 --> 00:41:55,003 and it just vindicated everything we'd ever said about them. 686 00:41:55,003 --> 00:41:59,003 The win was one of the best days of my life. 687 00:41:59,003 --> 00:42:02,763 The civil justice system in the UK had got to the truth. 688 00:42:04,523 --> 00:42:08,083 But the win came at huge financial cost. 689 00:42:08,083 --> 00:42:13,363 Although the Post Office agreed to pay £57.5 million in damages, 690 00:42:13,363 --> 00:42:14,883 after legal costs, 691 00:42:14,883 --> 00:42:19,363 the subpostmasters were left with around £20,000 each. 692 00:42:22,283 --> 00:42:26,163 But the civil court win did enable the subpostmasters 693 00:42:26,163 --> 00:42:28,643 to appeal their criminal convictions. 694 00:42:28,643 --> 00:42:31,883 These subpostmasters have not only had their convictions quashed, 695 00:42:31,883 --> 00:42:35,243 but they've been exonerated by the Court of Appeal. 696 00:42:38,203 --> 00:42:40,843 I'm not a criminal any more, I'm a victim. 697 00:42:42,803 --> 00:42:48,243 To date, 93 out of 736 subpostmasters 698 00:42:48,243 --> 00:42:50,683 have had their names cleared. 699 00:42:53,923 --> 00:42:58,443 The sun was shining, and I was free. 700 00:43:01,163 --> 00:43:04,363 REPORTER: How do you feel now? Very happy. 701 00:43:04,363 --> 00:43:08,123 At last, you could go home and tell people you were innocent. 702 00:43:11,163 --> 00:43:13,803 That emotion will... 703 00:43:13,803 --> 00:43:17,123 It was like lifting that big rucksack 704 00:43:17,123 --> 00:43:20,963 with rocks on your back for years, and getting rid of it. 705 00:43:22,243 --> 00:43:25,523 Thank you, all. Let him through, please. 706 00:43:25,523 --> 00:43:28,003 You know, you could just throw it away. 707 00:43:28,003 --> 00:43:31,123 It was such a big, big relief, 708 00:43:31,123 --> 00:43:35,363 cos the Post Office did a lot of damage, really, to him. 709 00:43:38,803 --> 00:43:44,163 It's something that we couldn't fathom that was gonna happen to him. 710 00:43:44,163 --> 00:43:47,243 I didn't have this many people at my wedding. 711 00:43:47,243 --> 00:43:52,563 But I'm seeing my dad coming back now, you know, bit by bit. 712 00:43:52,563 --> 00:43:55,243 So we are really grateful, 713 00:43:55,243 --> 00:43:59,363 you know, that we've had this chance to see that, cos not many have. 714 00:43:59,363 --> 00:44:00,883 CHEERING 715 00:44:00,883 --> 00:44:02,683 Well done. Well done. 716 00:44:07,963 --> 00:44:10,003 God's got me through everything. 717 00:44:10,003 --> 00:44:14,043 I just thought I wanted to bring you here to show you as well. 718 00:44:17,643 --> 00:44:19,923 I've built myself up. 719 00:44:19,923 --> 00:44:22,163 I've made myself stronger, 720 00:44:22,163 --> 00:44:27,403 and I want everybody to know that I wasn't a thief. 721 00:44:27,403 --> 00:44:30,523 I didn't rob the Post Office, as they say. 722 00:44:30,523 --> 00:44:33,283 That's what matters to me, my name cleared. 723 00:44:35,283 --> 00:44:38,923 And it needs to be told. Our stories do need to be out there. 724 00:44:40,723 --> 00:44:43,083 It's not just... 725 00:44:43,083 --> 00:44:46,563 a little group of people, it's hundreds. 726 00:44:48,003 --> 00:44:50,803 Hundreds of people have been through this. 727 00:44:58,403 --> 00:45:00,003 Everybody ready? 728 00:45:00,003 --> 00:45:05,203 A statutory inquiry has been set up to find out what went wrong. 729 00:45:06,443 --> 00:45:09,243 Would you not remember something that significant? 730 00:45:09,243 --> 00:45:10,843 I'm afraid I don't. 731 00:45:10,843 --> 00:45:13,843 I'm sorry, I don't have an awful lot of memory on that. 732 00:45:13,843 --> 00:45:16,923 I don't remember that at all. 733 00:45:16,923 --> 00:45:18,963 I know who should be held to account. 734 00:45:18,963 --> 00:45:25,923 I mean, it's the people who have had a very cushy lifestyle 735 00:45:25,923 --> 00:45:30,923 on vast quantities of money, 736 00:45:30,923 --> 00:45:37,803 whilst they've made hundreds, if not thousands of individuals suffer, 737 00:45:37,803 --> 00:45:42,083 whilst knowing the real truth of what's been going on 738 00:45:42,083 --> 00:45:46,203 and denying the truth to all these individuals. 739 00:45:46,203 --> 00:45:49,723 Those are the people who should be held responsible. 740 00:46:58,483 --> 00:47:00,523 Subtitles by accessiblity@itv.com