1
00:00:19,853 --> 00:00:24,482
[dramatic music]

2
00:00:24,483 --> 00:00:29,238
[Errol Morris] Usually, I have absolutely
no idea of where to begin,

3
00:00:29,239 --> 00:00:31,865
but you gave me an idea of
where to begin.

4
00:00:33,617 --> 00:00:34,826
And what was that?

5
00:00:36,537 --> 00:00:40,186
[Errol] You asked me about
the nature of our relationship.

6
00:00:40,187 --> 00:00:43,836
It went further than that, I think.
It said, "Who are you?"

7
00:00:43,837 --> 00:00:46,629
Because, I've looked at much of your work.

8
00:00:46,630 --> 00:00:51,635
Sometimes, you're a spectral figure,
sometimes you're God.

9
00:00:51,636 --> 00:00:53,762
And sometimes you're present.

10
00:00:58,100 --> 00:01:03,146
I needed to know who I was talking to.
Were you my friend across the fire?

11
00:01:03,147 --> 00:01:06,066
Were you a stranger on a bus?

12
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Who are you?

13
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This is a performance art.

14
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You need to know whether you're performing
to a trade union, an elite audience.

15
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You need to know something about the
ambitions of the people you're talking to.

16
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[Errol] And if I can't answer
that question?

17
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Not that I won't, but maybe I can't.

18
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Then we'll struggle on and find out
who you are.

19
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[chuckles]

20
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[wings flapping]

21
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[David] When I was first
in Army Intelligence,

22
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I'd conducted a lot of interviews,
which were also interrogations.

23
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Immediately, in the relationship, there is
a dependence upon me, the interrogator.

24
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"Is your mother okay? Do you want me
to make a call to your home?"

25
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It's the bonding, real or artificial,
that opens the discussion.

26
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First of all, a statement that
I'm the only person you've got.

27
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[Errol] Establishing a dependence?

28
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Establishing their dependence
on the interrogator, yes.

29
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When you want something to be expressed
that may not be true,

30
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and you know it's not true,
that's a beginning.

31
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{\an8}[David] "There's scarcely a book of mine
that didn't have <i>The Pigeon Tunnel</i>

32
00:02:44,165 --> 00:02:47,793
at some time or another
as its working title."

33
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[muffled thud]

34
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[David] "Its origin is easily explained.

35
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I was in my mid-teens
when my father decided to take me

36
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on one of his gambling sprees
to Monte Carlo.

37
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Close by the old casino
stood the sporting club."

38
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[wings flapping]

39
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[David] "At its base lay a stretch of lawn

40
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and a shooting range looking out to sea."

41
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[gunshot]

42
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[gunshot]

43
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[gunshot]

44
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{\an8}[David] "Under the lawn,
ran small, parallel tunnels

45
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{\an8}that emerged in a row
at the sea's edge.

46
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- Into them were inserted live pigeons..."
- [pigeon coos]

47
00:03:43,974 --> 00:03:47,769
"...that had been hatched and trapped
on the casino roof.

48
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Their job was to flutter their way
along the pitch-dark tunnel

49
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until they emerged
in the Mediterranean sky

50
00:03:59,656 --> 00:04:03,702
as targets for the well-lunched
sporting gentlemen..."

51
00:04:03,703 --> 00:04:04,994
[Russian soldiers] "Halt! Halt!"

52
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"...who were standing in wait
with their shotguns."

53
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[gunshot]

54
00:04:17,007 --> 00:04:18,049
[gunshot]

55
00:04:18,050 --> 00:04:21,093
"Pigeons who were missed or merely winged

56
00:04:21,094 --> 00:04:24,932
returned to the place of their birth
on the casino roof,

57
00:04:24,933 --> 00:04:27,768
where the same traps awaited them.

58
00:04:31,063 --> 00:04:34,441
Quite why this image has haunted me
for so long

59
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is something the listener..."

60
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[gunshot]

61
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"...is perhaps better able
to judge than I am."

62
00:04:42,533 --> 00:04:43,742
[gunshot]

63
00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:57,339
[Errol] <i>The name David Cornwell is
probably unfamiliar to most of you.</i>

64
00:04:57,340 --> 00:05:01,175
<i>He's an expert on secrets,
a former spy himself,</i>

65
00:05:01,176 --> 00:05:04,888
<i>and the author of two dozen books,
virtually all of them best sellers,</i>

66
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{\an8}<i>written under the pen name
of John le Carré.</i>

67
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{\an8}[Errol] <i>Cornwell has been living this
double life for more than 50 years now</i>

68
00:05:13,189 --> 00:05:14,606
{\an8}<i>and rarely gives interviews.</i>

69
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- [intriguing music]
- [David] Betrayal fascinates me.

70
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I've lived through a period
of endless betrayal.

71
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When I went into the secret world,
I served in two successive services,

72
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both of which were betrayed to the hilt.

73
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I felt betrayed as a child, if you like.

74
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I felt that I had betrayed people myself.

75
00:05:48,223 --> 00:05:49,975
Like many artistic people,

76
00:05:51,351 --> 00:05:57,691
I have lived from early childhood
inside an imaginative bubble.

77
00:06:00,235 --> 00:06:03,154
When I was in the secret world,
it wasn't enough for me.

78
00:06:03,155 --> 00:06:07,325
I did very little of it.
I was very junior, I wasn't told much.

79
00:06:07,326 --> 00:06:11,538
So, what I did was reinvent the secret
world and fill my own people with it.

80
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[Errol] In many of the stories,
there are dupes and string pullers.

81
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Those in control
and those controlled by others.

82
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[camera shutter clicks]

83
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[David] Well, now we're talking
about my childhood.

84
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[projector slide changes]

85
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My father was a confidence trickster.

86
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Life was a stage.

87
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Where pretense was everything.

88
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Being off stage was boring.

89
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And risk was attractive.

90
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But above all, what was attractive
was the imprint of personality.

91
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Of truth, we didn't speak.

92
00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:07,114
Of conviction, we didn't speak.

93
00:07:07,115 --> 00:07:09,429
[Errol] So, you felt like a dupe?

94
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No, I joined. I joined.

95
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You polish your act,
learn to tell funny stories. Show off.

96
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You discover early that there is no center
to a human being.

97
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I wasn't a dupe.
I was invited to dupe other people.

98
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If we moved from one place to another,
didn't pay the bills.

99
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If we had to put the lights out
on the house

100
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because somebody
was after my father, Ronnie,

101
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that seemed at the time,
the way people lived.

102
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Now, these are not hard luck stories.

103
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Graham Greene said, and I quote him often,

104
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"Childhood is the credit balance
of the writer."

105
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It's not a lament,
it's just a self-examination.

106
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[intriguing music]

107
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[David] "I have seen the house
where I was born,

108
00:08:11,492 --> 00:08:14,744
but the house of my birth that I prefer

109
00:08:14,745 --> 00:08:18,582
is a different one
built in my imagination.

110
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It's red brick and clattery
and due for demolition,

111
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with broken windows, a 'For Sale' sign
and an old bath in the garden.

112
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A place for kids to hide in
rather than be born.

113
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But born there I was,
or so my imagination insists."

114
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- [woman cries and pants]
- "I was born in the attic

115
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among a stack of brown boxes

116
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that my father always carted round
with him when he was on the run."

117
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[birds tweet]

118
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"My mother lies on a camp bed,
pitifully doing her best,

119
00:08:57,163 --> 00:08:59,331
whatever her best may entail."

120
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[David's mother pants]

121
00:09:04,503 --> 00:09:08,215
[David's mother wails]

122
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- "So, I am born..."
- [baby cries]

123
00:09:15,597 --> 00:09:18,808
"...and packed up with my mother's
few possessions,

124
00:09:18,809 --> 00:09:22,062
for we have recently suffered
another bailiffs' visitation

125
00:09:22,063 --> 00:09:23,814
and are travelling light."

126
00:09:24,982 --> 00:09:27,150
[baby gurgles]

127
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"The lid of the boot is locked
from the outside."

128
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[engine starts]

129
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"I'm already on the run.
I've been on the run ever since."

130
00:09:46,253 --> 00:09:50,549
[distorted flapping wings]

131
00:09:50,550 --> 00:09:53,594
[pigeons coo]

132
00:10:00,142 --> 00:10:02,644
[David] My mother disappeared
when I was five.

133
00:10:04,188 --> 00:10:06,398
I had no relationship with her at all.

134
00:10:07,900 --> 00:10:11,445
There were many substitute mothers
who passed through my father's hands.

135
00:10:11,446 --> 00:10:15,616
{\an8}One particular stepmother,
who in her own way was heroic,

136
00:10:15,617 --> 00:10:17,492
{\an8}steadied the ship for a while.

137
00:10:18,118 --> 00:10:20,120
[dramatic music]

138
00:10:24,875 --> 00:10:27,293
{\an8}[David] My mother was a mystery.

139
00:10:27,294 --> 00:10:31,006
{\an8}Because it was never properly revealed
what had happened to her.

140
00:10:31,007 --> 00:10:33,050
Was she dead, was she alive?

141
00:10:38,639 --> 00:10:41,016
Ronnie didn't like hard truths.

142
00:10:46,855 --> 00:10:49,149
I met her again at 21.

143
00:10:51,735 --> 00:10:54,695
I wrote to her brother,
he wrote back, saying,

144
00:10:54,696 --> 00:10:58,492
"Here's her address.
Never tell her that I told you."

145
00:10:59,159 --> 00:11:01,578
So, I wrote to my mother, said,
"Your brother tells me..."

146
00:11:01,579 --> 00:11:04,414
So, I felt completely unbound
by this injunction.

147
00:11:09,002 --> 00:11:13,882
[Errol] Did you imagine her having regrets
about leaving you and your brother?

148
00:11:15,092 --> 00:11:19,388
[David] Well, when I met her, [laughs]
I asked how she felt about it.

149
00:11:20,264 --> 00:11:23,892
And she replied,
and it was always her reply,

150
00:11:24,852 --> 00:11:27,645
that my father had been intolerable
to live with,

151
00:11:27,646 --> 00:11:31,483
that she got sick of the trail of
mistresses he was bringing to the house.

152
00:11:31,484 --> 00:11:34,527
That there was never any money
passing through.

153
00:11:34,528 --> 00:11:37,948
And she didn't like all these crooks
coming through his life.

154
00:11:37,949 --> 00:11:41,827
She said, if, if she had attempted
any other measure,

155
00:11:41,828 --> 00:11:45,705
he knew so many wonderful lawyers,
which indeed he did,

156
00:11:45,706 --> 00:11:49,438
that she would never have had a chance
in the marital court.

157
00:11:49,439 --> 00:11:53,172
So, she gave up all that stuff
and thought she'd just push off.

158
00:11:53,173 --> 00:11:55,799
[pigeons coo]

159
00:11:59,887 --> 00:12:02,472
[Errol] Do you remember the day she left?

160
00:12:02,473 --> 00:12:03,640
[David] No.

161
00:12:06,101 --> 00:12:10,355
If you are going to leave your children,
that night,

162
00:12:11,690 --> 00:12:13,483
with your white suitcase packed,

163
00:12:15,485 --> 00:12:17,070
do you kiss them goodbye?

164
00:12:17,071 --> 00:12:18,238
[door creaks]

165
00:12:20,699 --> 00:12:24,453
Did she come into the room where we slept?
Take a last look at us?

166
00:12:25,329 --> 00:12:26,580
[she sighs gently]

167
00:12:31,919 --> 00:12:35,923
[David] So, I imagine it.
I imagine that she did.

168
00:12:40,135 --> 00:12:41,220
[she exhales]

169
00:12:46,558 --> 00:12:47,643
[door closes firmly]

170
00:12:48,936 --> 00:12:51,146
[footsteps echo]

171
00:12:56,276 --> 00:12:59,530
[Errol] You came into possession
of this suitcase.

172
00:12:59,531 --> 00:13:01,031
[David] When she died,

173
00:13:01,865 --> 00:13:05,619
I spotted this beautiful white hide
suitcase from Harrods

174
00:13:05,620 --> 00:13:07,954
lined with silk inside.

175
00:13:07,955 --> 00:13:12,751
{\an8}With her initials on the outside,
"O.M.C.," Olive Moore Cornwell.

176
00:13:14,169 --> 00:13:20,133
{\an8}That must have been the suitcase
into which she packed her clothes.

177
00:13:21,593 --> 00:13:25,222
I imagined the amazing flimsies
that it would have contained.

178
00:13:27,140 --> 00:13:29,017
{\an8}And the most exquisite clothes.

179
00:13:34,648 --> 00:13:37,379
{\an8}She took it into a kind of poverty.

180
00:13:37,380 --> 00:13:39,746
She ran away with a chap who had no money.

181
00:13:39,747 --> 00:13:42,113
I imagined the suitcase being unpacked

182
00:13:42,114 --> 00:13:45,200
and the last of the luxury
gradually fading away.

183
00:13:46,410 --> 00:13:48,787
I kept the suitcase.
It's the only relic I have of her.

184
00:13:48,788 --> 00:13:51,748
Physical evidence that
that thing happened.

185
00:13:53,166 --> 00:13:57,546
[Errol] What did the suitcase mean to you?
Why keep it?

186
00:13:58,338 --> 00:14:01,925
I accused it in my mind of being,
as it were, a conspirator

187
00:14:01,926 --> 00:14:05,012
in her secret departure
from the house one night.

188
00:14:05,013 --> 00:14:07,034
[vehicle passes faintly]

189
00:14:07,035 --> 00:14:09,057
To me, it's historic.

190
00:14:13,353 --> 00:14:17,106
She was impenetrable emotionally.

191
00:14:17,107 --> 00:14:21,694
I never heard her
express a serious feeling.

192
00:14:21,695 --> 00:14:26,950
But when she went to nursing home
for her last year or so,

193
00:14:27,784 --> 00:14:31,412
then she created a fantasy
with the nurses.

194
00:14:31,413 --> 00:14:37,586
She had painted to the nurses
a picture of maternal loyalty to us.

195
00:14:37,587 --> 00:14:41,027
The long lives we had shared,
all the fun we'd had.

196
00:14:41,028 --> 00:14:44,468
So, she'd filled in the gap years,
if you like.

197
00:14:44,469 --> 00:14:47,262
And when I attended her dying,

198
00:14:49,348 --> 00:14:52,809
the irony of the moment was
she mistook me for my father.

199
00:14:56,563 --> 00:14:59,524
[foreboding music]

200
00:14:59,525 --> 00:15:03,987
[David] She said,
"You never brought me orchids."

201
00:15:05,864 --> 00:15:09,576
I think it was a reference
to some other amour he had.

202
00:15:10,369 --> 00:15:11,703
I will never know.

203
00:15:13,038 --> 00:15:14,622
And I said, "What color do you like?"

204
00:15:14,623 --> 00:15:17,751
She said, "I don't care. I've never
seen them. Bring me an orchid."

205
00:15:17,752 --> 00:15:20,087
[mysterious music]

206
00:15:25,342 --> 00:15:29,596
{\an8}[David] People loved Ronnie to the end
of his days, even people he'd robbed.

207
00:15:33,934 --> 00:15:37,332
{\an8}[David] When he was on stage
beguiling people,

208
00:15:37,333 --> 00:15:40,732
he absolutely believed
in what he was doing and saying.

209
00:15:42,317 --> 00:15:47,154
{\an8}These spasms of immense charm

210
00:15:47,155 --> 00:15:52,952
and persuasiveness
were his moments of feeling real.

211
00:15:52,953 --> 00:15:58,750
"Son? When I'm judged,
as judged I shall surely be,

212
00:15:59,751 --> 00:16:04,715
I shall be judged on how I treated you
and your brother Tony.

213
00:16:04,716 --> 00:16:06,174
That will be God's will."

214
00:16:06,175 --> 00:16:10,887
God was a big pal of his. [laughs]

215
00:16:10,888 --> 00:16:15,893
Whether he believed in God is mysterious,
but he was certain God believed in him.

216
00:16:15,894 --> 00:16:18,270
[pigeons coo]

217
00:16:19,605 --> 00:16:23,545
These extraordinary, ingenious,
confidence tricks

218
00:16:23,546 --> 00:16:27,487
were part of a conversation
he was having with God.

219
00:16:29,823 --> 00:16:34,661
"If I do this, can I get away with it?
If I do that, can I get away with it?"

220
00:16:34,662 --> 00:16:36,746
[Errol] Bargaining with God.

221
00:16:36,747 --> 00:16:40,917
Yeah, I think more betting with God.
[laughs]

222
00:16:40,918 --> 00:16:44,004
"If I put this much on the table,
how about that?"

223
00:16:47,299 --> 00:16:51,678
Ronnie always, whether he had to steal
or borrow or bribe the headmaster,

224
00:16:51,679 --> 00:16:54,389
wanted me to have the posh education.

225
00:16:55,807 --> 00:17:00,395
I learned the manners and the attitudes
of a class to which I did not belong.

226
00:17:04,858 --> 00:17:08,654
I studied and I frequently felt slighted.

227
00:17:14,117 --> 00:17:18,539
There were times when I hated the class
to which I had been assigned.

228
00:17:18,540 --> 00:17:20,248
I was on enemy territory.

229
00:17:20,249 --> 00:17:23,626
But I learned to dress properly.
I learned to speak properly.

230
00:17:23,627 --> 00:17:27,673
I turned myself into one of them,
but I never felt like one of them.

231
00:17:31,593 --> 00:17:34,513
{\an8}[David] From a very early age
I was a little spy.

232
00:17:37,015 --> 00:17:40,185
Whenever Ronnie left the house,
I investigated.

233
00:17:43,105 --> 00:17:45,566
I did not know what the world held.

234
00:17:49,611 --> 00:17:54,241
When the debt collectors came in,
my toys disappeared.

235
00:17:54,242 --> 00:17:56,827
The furniture disappeared.
Women disappeared.

236
00:17:56,828 --> 00:17:58,370
{\an8}Mothers disappeared.

237
00:18:02,833 --> 00:18:04,709
When Ronnie was really frightened,

238
00:18:04,710 --> 00:18:07,004
and it was, "Black the house out,
put the lights out,

239
00:18:07,005 --> 00:18:09,047
put the cars in the back garden."

240
00:18:09,923 --> 00:18:13,677
He wasn't afraid of the law,
he was afraid of the mob.

241
00:18:13,678 --> 00:18:15,136
["Jealous Heart" by Al Morgan]

242
00:18:15,137 --> 00:18:19,266
<i>♪ Jealous heart
Oh, jealous heart ♪</i>

243
00:18:19,267 --> 00:18:20,809
<i>♪ Stop beating ♪</i>

244
00:18:22,519 --> 00:18:28,233
<i>♪ Can't you see the damage
You have done... ♪</i>

245
00:18:29,526 --> 00:18:34,323
[David] When he died,
he had offices in Jermyn Street.

246
00:18:35,824 --> 00:18:38,493
On the top floor lived
ladies of the night.

247
00:18:41,747 --> 00:18:45,834
Who, as he put it, were always ready
to cook some sausages for him.

248
00:18:45,835 --> 00:18:47,794
[woman laughs]

249
00:18:48,670 --> 00:18:51,756
He had two Ford Zephyr cars,

250
00:18:51,757 --> 00:18:56,428
a house in Henley,
a house in Tite Street, Chelsea.

251
00:18:56,429 --> 00:18:58,472
For what purpose, I know not.

252
00:18:58,473 --> 00:19:00,516
And he had these offices.

253
00:19:01,683 --> 00:19:06,124
We could not find on his person,
in the drawers of his desk,

254
00:19:06,125 --> 00:19:10,567
enough money to pay the staff
until the end of the week.

255
00:19:10,568 --> 00:19:12,236
There was no money.

256
00:19:12,237 --> 00:19:14,111
[horse neighs]

257
00:19:14,112 --> 00:19:17,658
There was a horse in France
at Maisons-Laffitte,

258
00:19:17,659 --> 00:19:19,910
a couple of horses in Ireland.

259
00:19:20,702 --> 00:19:22,995
[hooves pound]

260
00:19:22,996 --> 00:19:25,666
[Errol] You called them,
"the never-was-ers."

261
00:19:25,667 --> 00:19:27,417
[David] The never-was-ers.

262
00:19:29,962 --> 00:19:33,549
He had a world champion jockey,
Gordon Richards.

263
00:19:36,009 --> 00:19:41,348
When Gordon retired, he agreed
to select horses at auction for Ronnie,

264
00:19:41,349 --> 00:19:43,188
and, at some point,
he must have paid for them.

265
00:19:45,853 --> 00:19:50,440
His great joy was to appear at Ascot
and have a horse in a race.

266
00:19:51,149 --> 00:19:54,152
[indistinct race track announcements]

267
00:19:54,153 --> 00:19:56,696
[bell rings]

268
00:19:56,697 --> 00:19:59,741
[indistinct race commentary]

269
00:20:00,534 --> 00:20:04,746
[David] Ronnie clearly reached a point
where the fraternity of bookmakers

270
00:20:04,747 --> 00:20:07,499
would not have him on the course anymore,

271
00:20:07,500 --> 00:20:10,252
and they had enforcers
that made that clear.

272
00:20:10,253 --> 00:20:12,003
[crowd cheers]

273
00:20:12,004 --> 00:20:14,882
[David] And you better look out
if you show up at a race course,

274
00:20:14,883 --> 00:20:16,925
and you haven't paid your debts.

275
00:20:19,887 --> 00:20:23,098
I was dispatched with a suitcase
full of money

276
00:20:25,475 --> 00:20:28,394
to distribute among the bookmakers.

277
00:20:28,395 --> 00:20:31,690
[commentator] <i>Wow! It's Rupert.
He's pulling away now!</i>

278
00:20:33,108 --> 00:20:35,777
[David] He had a horse named
after my half-brother,

279
00:20:35,778 --> 00:20:38,238
and it ran in the Cesarewitch.

280
00:20:38,239 --> 00:20:42,034
[indistinct commentary]

281
00:20:42,035 --> 00:20:44,077
[crowd chatter]

282
00:20:48,665 --> 00:20:52,002
[David] All of a sudden,
we had a real harvest of cash.

283
00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:54,213
Thank you, boys.

284
00:20:58,592 --> 00:21:00,636
[David] I sat on the train with it.

285
00:21:02,304 --> 00:21:05,307
[footsteps]

286
00:21:12,689 --> 00:21:14,816
[David] A big man came up to me.

287
00:21:24,535 --> 00:21:26,245
You're Ronnie Cornwell's son, aren't you?

288
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,381
Don't do that again, sonny.

289
00:21:39,883 --> 00:21:42,094
[David] And he just touched my nose.

290
00:21:43,929 --> 00:21:47,516
And when I got back, Ronnie was waiting.

291
00:21:54,356 --> 00:21:56,650
And he counted and counted,

292
00:21:57,985 --> 00:22:00,654
and he couldn't believe
I hadn't kept some.

293
00:22:00,655 --> 00:22:02,051
[Ronnie] Come on, boy.

294
00:22:02,052 --> 00:22:03,447
Show me your pockets.

295
00:22:03,448 --> 00:22:05,409
Come on, show me what you've done.

296
00:22:10,497 --> 00:22:13,917
[David] Then I think I got a fiver
at the end of it for being a good boy.

297
00:22:16,295 --> 00:22:20,841
[Errol] Was this a disappointment
to your father, this lack of larceny?

298
00:22:20,842 --> 00:22:23,968
It was puzzlement that... [laughs]

299
00:22:23,969 --> 00:22:27,556
"You can't be that good," he thought.
[laughs]

300
00:22:27,557 --> 00:22:31,017
"No one is. This isn't human nature."

301
00:22:31,018 --> 00:22:34,437
[Errol] But this is such
a romantic childhood, is it not?

302
00:22:34,438 --> 00:22:37,858
Well that... yes.
I-I really need to get that across,

303
00:22:37,859 --> 00:22:41,277
that whatever revelations
came to me later,

304
00:22:41,278 --> 00:22:47,242
and whatever deprivals I seem
to have suffered, mothers and things,

305
00:22:47,243 --> 00:22:49,161
it was terribly exciting.

306
00:22:49,162 --> 00:22:52,706
[suspenseful music]

307
00:22:54,124 --> 00:22:55,458
[projector slide changes]

308
00:22:55,459 --> 00:22:59,880
[David] We haven't mentioned the fact
that I was destined to become a barrister.

309
00:23:00,881 --> 00:23:03,967
And my elder brother was destined
to become a solicitor.

310
00:23:06,094 --> 00:23:12,142
I was determined to go to Oxford,
and they offered me a place.

311
00:23:14,311 --> 00:23:17,105
Ronnie demanded to know
what he was paying for.

312
00:23:19,733 --> 00:23:23,695
In cowardice,
I said that I would be studying Law.

313
00:23:24,863 --> 00:23:30,952
And when he heard on the grapevine
that I was reading Modern Languages,

314
00:23:30,953 --> 00:23:36,250
he descended on my tutor and demanded
to know how the hell this had happened.

315
00:23:37,209 --> 00:23:39,127
Was it their fault or mine?

316
00:23:41,672 --> 00:23:44,675
My mentor, Vivian Green,
showed him the door.

317
00:23:52,057 --> 00:23:54,101
{\an8}So, I went on reading
Modern Languages.

318
00:23:59,106 --> 00:24:03,402
And in the middle of the second year,
he made a really dramatic bankruptcy.

319
00:24:03,403 --> 00:24:06,321
It was massive,
for a million and a quarter pounds.

320
00:24:09,533 --> 00:24:14,997
The Westminster Bank in Oxford,
then, for reasons of its own,

321
00:24:14,998 --> 00:24:17,624
refused to keep my account and closed it.

322
00:24:20,377 --> 00:24:27,134
I had been very close to my girlfriend
at the time, so we decided to marry.

323
00:24:31,054 --> 00:24:35,017
{\an8}I went and taught at a low life
private prep school.

324
00:24:36,393 --> 00:24:39,437
And that was the same preparatory school
which, in my mind,

325
00:24:39,438 --> 00:24:42,482
I put at the beginning
of <i>Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy.</i>

326
00:24:45,819 --> 00:24:48,362
We lived in real poverty

327
00:24:48,363 --> 00:24:51,909
with an outside loo and that stuff,
and a tin bath.

328
00:24:51,910 --> 00:24:54,702
And then, to my mind, heroically,

329
00:24:54,703 --> 00:24:58,498
Vivian Green inspired the college
to call me back.

330
00:25:01,043 --> 00:25:03,462
And they would somehow
find the money for me.

331
00:25:04,922 --> 00:25:07,758
So, we went back and they found us
a grand flat to live in.

332
00:25:07,759 --> 00:25:09,801
Life had changed completely.

333
00:25:10,969 --> 00:25:13,846
The institutional allure returned

334
00:25:13,847 --> 00:25:17,433
when Eton invited me
to come and teach the top class.

335
00:25:17,434 --> 00:25:20,729
I thought I'd be an Eton schoolmaster
for the rest of my life.

336
00:25:22,439 --> 00:25:25,025
Then, after two years,
I was fed up with it.

337
00:25:25,817 --> 00:25:29,821
And the spies lured me, and I thought
I would be a spy for the rest of my life.

338
00:25:29,822 --> 00:25:34,408
[mysterious music]

339
00:25:34,409 --> 00:25:38,163
[David] It's terribly difficult
to recruit for a secret service.

340
00:25:38,164 --> 00:25:41,667
In the end, you're looking for somebody
who's a bit bad,

341
00:25:43,752 --> 00:25:45,754
but at the same time, loyal.

342
00:25:48,799 --> 00:25:55,347
There's a type they were looking for
in my day, and I fit it perfectly.

343
00:25:57,975 --> 00:26:00,227
Separated early from the nest.

344
00:26:02,771 --> 00:26:04,147
Boarding school.

345
00:26:06,233 --> 00:26:08,443
Early independence of spirit.

346
00:26:11,029 --> 00:26:14,074
But looking for institutional embrace.

347
00:26:15,534 --> 00:26:21,248
I can see my own life still
as a succession of embraces and escapes.

348
00:26:21,249 --> 00:26:23,750
[wings flutter]

349
00:26:29,715 --> 00:26:34,052
[David] I joined one intelligence
service, went sour on it.

350
00:26:34,761 --> 00:26:37,264
{\an8}Moved to a second, went sour on it.

351
00:26:38,265 --> 00:26:43,248
I was disenchanted by the Cold War itself,
which was easy to be

352
00:26:43,249 --> 00:26:48,233
when you saw all those Nazis
wandering around in West Germany.

353
00:26:48,234 --> 00:26:50,569
And indeed in East Germany.

354
00:26:50,570 --> 00:26:52,904
What had we really fought for?

355
00:26:52,905 --> 00:26:55,282
[Errol] As if the war had never happened?

356
00:26:56,366 --> 00:26:57,533
It felt like that.

357
00:26:57,534 --> 00:27:04,534
The power of enforced forgetting
was extraordinary.

358
00:27:06,710 --> 00:27:11,715
I was posted under diplomatic cover
to West Germany.

359
00:27:13,133 --> 00:27:16,010
And it was one of the great good fortunes
of my life,

360
00:27:16,011 --> 00:27:18,889
because I was there
for the erection of the Berlin Wall.

361
00:27:21,642 --> 00:27:26,730
The standoff between East and West
was exemplified in Berlin.

362
00:27:26,731 --> 00:27:29,983
Tension was constant.
It affected everybody.

363
00:27:30,609 --> 00:27:31,609
[jet engine whines]

364
00:27:31,610 --> 00:27:34,988
[male announcer] <i>The attention
of an anxious world is focused on Berlin.</i>

365
00:27:34,989 --> 00:27:38,366
<i>The last great exodus of refugees
from the East is processed</i>

366
00:27:38,367 --> 00:27:41,702
<i>as the Communist German regime
moves to close their border.</i>

367
00:27:41,703 --> 00:27:44,915
<i>The flow of those seeking asylum here
on the fringe of freedom</i>

368
00:27:44,916 --> 00:27:46,959
<i>has reached 1,500 a day.</i>

369
00:27:49,253 --> 00:27:53,632
[David] I went to Berlin
and saw for myself what was going on.

370
00:27:55,676 --> 00:28:01,013
The big dramas occurred
before the wall was built.

371
00:28:01,014 --> 00:28:06,770
West German firemen were spreading
their trampolines below the building.

372
00:28:08,063 --> 00:28:10,691
People were jumping into these things.

373
00:28:18,407 --> 00:28:22,035
Sights which were heart-breaking.

374
00:28:25,163 --> 00:28:26,956
[roaring]

375
00:28:26,957 --> 00:28:28,417
[muffled explosion]

376
00:28:36,091 --> 00:28:39,803
{\an8}[Errol] What was your emotional response
to seeing this thing?

377
00:28:39,804 --> 00:28:46,685
A mixture of anger, disgust and empathy.

378
00:28:46,686 --> 00:28:50,021
It was for me a milestone.

379
00:28:50,022 --> 00:28:54,109
It was the impetus that produced
<i>The Spy Who Came in from the Cold.</i>

380
00:28:55,903 --> 00:28:58,739
[Errol] A crucible
for your understanding of the world?

381
00:29:01,658 --> 00:29:05,621
[David] More like confirmation
of my understanding of the world.

382
00:29:09,541 --> 00:29:15,923
[David] This was the most obscene symbol
of the insanity of the human struggle.

383
00:29:15,924 --> 00:29:17,382
[gunshot]

384
00:29:23,430 --> 00:29:28,184
I felt that on both sides, East and West,

385
00:29:28,185 --> 00:29:32,940
were inventing the enemy that they needed.

386
00:29:34,858 --> 00:29:39,863
The seamless transition from anti-Nazism
to anti-Communism.

387
00:29:46,828 --> 00:29:48,955
[David] I came back from Berlin.

388
00:29:48,956 --> 00:29:52,835
I knew that I wanted to write
a strong novel about the thing.

389
00:29:52,836 --> 00:29:55,546
It was summer.
I think I worked mainly in the garden.

390
00:29:56,296 --> 00:29:57,798
The kids were around.

391
00:30:00,050 --> 00:30:02,886
I would maybe start
at four or five in the morning.

392
00:30:04,012 --> 00:30:06,807
And I had this rush of blood and anger.

393
00:30:07,307 --> 00:30:12,562
Found, as it were,
a fable that served my purposes

394
00:30:12,563 --> 00:30:14,480
and that was,
<i>The Spy Who Came in from the Cold.</i>

395
00:30:14,481 --> 00:30:16,900
[Richard Burton]
<i>What the hell do you think spies are?</i>

396
00:30:16,901 --> 00:30:18,861
Moral philosophers
measuring everything they do

397
00:30:18,862 --> 00:30:21,070
against the word of God or Karl Marx?

398
00:30:21,071 --> 00:30:25,117
They're not. They're just a bunch
of seedy, squalid bastards like me.

399
00:30:25,118 --> 00:30:28,202
Little men, drunkards, queers,
henpecked husbands,

400
00:30:28,203 --> 00:30:32,457
civil servants playing Cowboys and Indians
to brighten their rotten little lives.

401
00:30:32,458 --> 00:30:35,419
Do you think they sit like monks in a cell
balancing right against wrong?

402
00:30:35,420 --> 00:30:39,339
The author who is
the biggest sensation right now,

403
00:30:39,340 --> 00:30:42,049
his real name is David Cornwell,

404
00:30:42,050 --> 00:30:45,345
but he's much better known to us
as John le Carré.

405
00:30:46,180 --> 00:30:48,724
How many did
<i>The Spy Who Came in from the Cold</i> sell?

406
00:30:49,308 --> 00:30:53,562
I think in all editions, book club,
paperback, all over the world,

407
00:30:53,563 --> 00:30:57,316
they say somewhere around
twelve, fifteen million.

408
00:30:57,317 --> 00:30:58,629
[whistles]

409
00:30:58,630 --> 00:30:59,942
[mouthing]

410
00:30:59,943 --> 00:31:01,778
[audience laughs]

411
00:31:05,157 --> 00:31:10,746
{\an8}[Errol] I take it that the success
of <i>Spy</i> was a surprise.

412
00:31:13,540 --> 00:31:17,961
[David] I think it was no surprise to me
in the sense that I felt

413
00:31:17,962 --> 00:31:20,880
that when I'd finished it,
I'd written something

414
00:31:20,881 --> 00:31:23,800
that was profoundly expressive
of my own feelings,

415
00:31:23,801 --> 00:31:25,802
and that it might have legs.

416
00:31:30,224 --> 00:31:34,561
The early rumbles from agent and publisher
suggested it really did have legs.

417
00:31:34,562 --> 00:31:37,564
You have to remember the context
in which it was published.

418
00:31:37,565 --> 00:31:40,067
We were sated with James Bond
at that time.

419
00:31:40,817 --> 00:31:44,154
{\an8}I admire your luck, Mister...

420
00:31:44,155 --> 00:31:47,740
Bond. James Bond.

421
00:31:47,741 --> 00:31:51,702
The reality that had been
offered by the news

422
00:31:51,703 --> 00:31:54,915
and by all the events
that were happening around us

423
00:31:54,916 --> 00:31:58,669
was spies as a shabby army
of lonely deciders.

424
00:31:58,670 --> 00:32:01,712
I happened to deliver the antidote.

425
00:32:01,713 --> 00:32:07,469
What was wrong about it, and I lived
with that problem still to this day,

426
00:32:07,470 --> 00:32:11,306
was that it painted the secret services
as so bloody brilliant.

427
00:32:11,307 --> 00:32:16,394
Whereas, by that time,
we were a crippled organization

428
00:32:16,395 --> 00:32:21,483
that could very well have been scrapped
to begin again.

429
00:32:27,573 --> 00:32:30,784
{\an8}[David] "If your mission in life
is to obtain traitors,

430
00:32:30,785 --> 00:32:33,245
to win them over to your cause,

431
00:32:33,912 --> 00:32:37,748
{\an8}you can hardly complain
when one of your own

432
00:32:37,749 --> 00:32:41,128
{\an8}turns out to have been obtained
by somebody else.

433
00:32:42,045 --> 00:32:45,944
When I came to write
<i>Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy,</i>

434
00:32:45,945 --> 00:32:49,845
it was Kim Philby's murky lamp
that lit my path."

435
00:32:49,846 --> 00:32:51,345
[camera shutter clicks]

436
00:32:51,346 --> 00:32:55,601
"MI6's brilliant former head
of counterintelligence.

437
00:32:56,268 --> 00:33:01,940
Once tipped to become chief of the
service, who was also a Russian spy."

438
00:33:08,822 --> 00:33:12,910
[David] Halfway through my tenure
in West Germany,

439
00:33:12,911 --> 00:33:15,579
Philby's defection was announced.

440
00:33:18,582 --> 00:33:25,214
His disappearance from Beirut
and his appearance on the Moscow stage.

441
00:33:27,382 --> 00:33:32,095
That was shocking to the ethic
of the secret services at that time.

442
00:33:32,930 --> 00:33:35,974
[suspenseful music]

443
00:33:53,283 --> 00:33:55,077
[in Russian] Someone is following.

444
00:34:02,918 --> 00:34:08,257
[David] The question is whether MI5,
MI6 wanted him to go.

445
00:34:09,550 --> 00:34:14,346
Nobody wanted that exposure.
You have an extraordinary problem.

446
00:34:14,847 --> 00:34:19,934
Very substantial former spy
coming up for trial.

447
00:34:19,935 --> 00:34:24,565
It would do great national damage
and achieve very little.

448
00:34:29,945 --> 00:34:34,116
In sober reflection,
the powers that be said, "Thank God."

449
00:34:36,451 --> 00:34:39,621
[Errol] "Thank God"?
So, they let him escape?

450
00:34:40,496 --> 00:34:41,748
[David] Yeah.

451
00:34:49,797 --> 00:34:51,842
[muffled ship's horn]

452
00:34:55,721 --> 00:34:58,515
[in Russian] Thank you, comrade.

453
00:35:04,438 --> 00:35:08,150
[David] Philby's defection
went straight to the heart

454
00:35:08,151 --> 00:35:10,527
of the establishment of the day.

455
00:35:13,947 --> 00:35:15,949
He was a Westminster boy.

456
00:35:17,201 --> 00:35:20,078
Part of the inner circle
of English society.

457
00:35:28,378 --> 00:35:29,420
[slurps]

458
00:35:29,421 --> 00:35:33,091
[David] People kind of overlooked,
on those grounds,

459
00:35:33,092 --> 00:35:37,054
the rather evident past that Philby had.

460
00:35:41,767 --> 00:35:43,726
It would not have been difficult
to establish

461
00:35:43,727 --> 00:35:47,147
that he had early associations
with Communist people.

462
00:35:47,148 --> 00:35:49,858
{\an8}He'd married a Communist woman in Vienna.

463
00:35:51,902 --> 00:35:55,989
Those things could be swept aside
because he's... he's one of us.

464
00:35:55,990 --> 00:35:57,281
He's one of us.

465
00:35:57,282 --> 00:36:00,035
So, if you'd really gone
into Philby's background,

466
00:36:00,036 --> 00:36:02,475
you would have said this chap is...

467
00:36:02,476 --> 00:36:04,914
He's a bit sniffy. We don't want that.

468
00:36:04,915 --> 00:36:07,584
But quite the contrary,
he was Mister Charm,

469
00:36:08,418 --> 00:36:10,671
and he loved to deceive.

470
00:36:11,421 --> 00:36:12,422
[camera shutter clicks]

471
00:36:17,261 --> 00:36:22,266
{\an8}[David] "Enter now, Nicholas Elliott,
Philby's most loyal friend, confidant,

472
00:36:22,267 --> 00:36:27,311
devoted brother-in-arms in war and peace.
Child of Eton.

473
00:36:27,312 --> 00:36:32,901
Son of its former headmaster,
adventurer, alpinist and dupe."

474
00:36:32,902 --> 00:36:34,735
[elevator squeaks]

475
00:36:34,736 --> 00:36:39,491
"Among the many extraordinary things
that Elliott had done in his life,

476
00:36:40,492 --> 00:36:45,747
and undoubtedly the most painful,
was to sit face to face in Beirut

477
00:36:45,748 --> 00:36:50,419
with his close friend, colleague
and mentor, Kim Philby,

478
00:36:50,420 --> 00:36:54,443
and hear him admit that
he had been a Soviet spy

479
00:36:54,444 --> 00:36:58,468
for all the years
that they had known each other."

480
00:37:07,186 --> 00:37:13,358
Nick Elliott told me that when he went out
to interview Philby in Beirut

481
00:37:13,359 --> 00:37:17,112
and to obtain from Philby the confession.

482
00:37:17,821 --> 00:37:22,159
He said that really,
when he wasn't playing a double game,

483
00:37:22,951 --> 00:37:25,494
that he was extremely lonely.

484
00:37:25,495 --> 00:37:28,206
He found life had gone flat for him,

485
00:37:28,207 --> 00:37:32,127
so the addiction to betrayal
was essential to him.

486
00:37:33,587 --> 00:37:38,133
And he betrayed everybody, really,
from childhood onward.

487
00:37:39,301 --> 00:37:42,846
{\an8}[Nicholas Elliott] There's an awful lot
of misuse of the word "double agent."

488
00:37:42,847 --> 00:37:47,309
{\an8}Philby is often described in the press
as a double agent.

489
00:37:47,310 --> 00:37:49,895
In point of fact,
Philby was a straightforward,

490
00:37:49,896 --> 00:37:52,168
high-level, disreputable traitor.

491
00:37:52,169 --> 00:37:54,440
What's the difference, exactly?

492
00:37:54,441 --> 00:37:57,193
Well, I mean, he was a straightforward spy
for the Russians.

493
00:37:57,194 --> 00:37:59,905
If he'd been a double agent,
he'd have been a spy for the Russians.

494
00:37:59,906 --> 00:38:02,032
But we'd have been playing back
against the Russians.

495
00:38:03,951 --> 00:38:07,871
[David] I knew Elliott pretty well.
And he was this tall figure.

496
00:38:08,747 --> 00:38:12,668
The hollowed-out body, waistcoats, spectacles.

497
00:38:13,627 --> 00:38:17,672
An Etonian voice,
the son of an Etonian headmaster,

498
00:38:17,673 --> 00:38:21,718
long line of Etonians behind him,
very aristocratic.

499
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,867
[Errol] Can you do his voice?

500
00:38:24,868 --> 00:38:28,016
Yes. I said to him, "Nick,

501
00:38:29,685 --> 00:38:32,896
when you went to see Kim,
what kind of sanctions did you have?"

502
00:38:32,897 --> 00:38:36,108
[as Elliott] "Sanctions, old boy?
What do you mean by that?"

503
00:38:36,109 --> 00:38:37,817
[normal] "How could you threaten him?

504
00:38:37,818 --> 00:38:40,486
Could you have him sandbagged
and brought back to London?"

505
00:38:40,487 --> 00:38:43,282
[as Elliott] "Oh," he said, "my dear chap,
nobody wanted him in London."

506
00:38:43,283 --> 00:38:46,368
[normal] I said, "Well, what could you
threaten him with?

507
00:38:46,369 --> 00:38:49,954
Nick, come on, come clean." He said,

508
00:38:49,955 --> 00:38:53,375
[as Elliott] "I told him,
if he didn't come clean,

509
00:38:53,376 --> 00:38:57,086
there wouldn't be a legation,
an embassy,

510
00:38:57,087 --> 00:39:00,132
a business, or a club
in the whole of the Middle East

511
00:39:00,133 --> 00:39:02,175
who'd have a first damn thing
to do with him."

512
00:39:02,176 --> 00:39:04,136
[normal] So, I said,
"Well, that must have frightened him."

513
00:39:04,137 --> 00:39:06,013
[as Elliott] "It did." [laughs]

514
00:39:07,264 --> 00:39:09,473
He played the English bloody fool,

515
00:39:09,474 --> 00:39:13,270
whether he was one,
as many maintain, I don't know.

516
00:39:14,980 --> 00:39:18,275
[Errol] You do have that line
in what you wrote.

517
00:39:18,859 --> 00:39:22,361
{\an8}"Philby was adept at deceiving others.

518
00:39:22,362 --> 00:39:26,074
{\an8}Elliott was equally adept
at deceiving himself."

519
00:39:26,909 --> 00:39:28,202
{\an8}[David] I'm glad I said that.

520
00:39:30,829 --> 00:39:33,080
It was always my argument

521
00:39:33,081 --> 00:39:37,628
that it was instinct rather than reason
that drove Philby to do what he did.

522
00:39:38,837 --> 00:39:44,843
That thrill of stepping into the street
knowing what you know and they don't.

523
00:39:44,844 --> 00:39:50,599
It's the joy of self-imposed schizophrenia
that the secret agent loves.

524
00:39:52,518 --> 00:39:55,187
[Errol] "Self-imposed schizophrenia."

525
00:39:56,063 --> 00:39:59,149
[chuckles gently]
The duality all the time.

526
00:39:59,150 --> 00:40:02,236
Of being the opposite
of your outward self.

527
00:40:02,903 --> 00:40:07,491
[Errol] But isn't there some joy
that you are actually making policy?

528
00:40:09,535 --> 00:40:11,954
Yes, I think the joy is voluptuous.

529
00:40:15,082 --> 00:40:17,291
A sensual journey

530
00:40:17,292 --> 00:40:22,548
of constantly challenging your luck
and surviving.

531
00:40:25,050 --> 00:40:28,344
Making a real difference too, absolutely.

532
00:40:28,345 --> 00:40:32,890
To feel you're the hub of the universe
is wonderful for the vanity.

533
00:40:32,891 --> 00:40:39,523
To be passing that, that pure gold,
to the Soviet Union, to your masters.

534
00:40:40,357 --> 00:40:43,902
"Now, do you love me?
If I give you this, will you love me?"

535
00:40:45,529 --> 00:40:50,742
I can imagine that voluptuous instinct
very well.

536
00:40:50,743 --> 00:40:53,370
Not in myself, but in him.

537
00:40:55,163 --> 00:40:58,457
Mister le Carré, you've described
Kim Philby as,

538
00:40:58,458 --> 00:41:01,752
"The avenger who destroyed the citadel
from within."

539
00:41:01,753 --> 00:41:05,048
Well, I think he's one of those strange
people who was born into privilege

540
00:41:05,049 --> 00:41:09,198
and, in some way, resented the advantages
with which he was born.

541
00:41:09,199 --> 00:41:13,347
A person who, on the one hand,
felt that he was better than society

542
00:41:13,348 --> 00:41:17,311
and, on the other hand, couldn't forgive
society for putting him in that position.

543
00:41:17,312 --> 00:41:19,479
He was very much at war with himself,
I think.

544
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,024
[suspenseful music]

545
00:41:27,279 --> 00:41:33,535
When I finally went to Moscow in 1988,

546
00:41:34,828 --> 00:41:39,917
I was at a party given
by the Union of Soviet Writers.

547
00:41:42,711 --> 00:41:45,547
There was a big man
called Genrikh Borovik.

548
00:41:46,673 --> 00:41:50,009
Borovik came up to me and said,

549
00:41:50,010 --> 00:41:56,892
[as Borovik] "David, I would like you
to meet a very good friend of mine.

550
00:41:56,893 --> 00:41:58,810
Keen admirer from your books.

551
00:42:00,812 --> 00:42:02,021
Kim Philby."

552
00:42:02,022 --> 00:42:06,068
[normal] I replied,
sick to the heart as I felt,

553
00:42:07,236 --> 00:42:11,114
that I'm soon to have dinner
with our ambassador,

554
00:42:12,199 --> 00:42:17,746
and I can't see myself having dinner
with the Queen's representative one night,

555
00:42:17,747 --> 00:42:21,103
and dinner with the Queen's traitor
the next.

556
00:42:21,104 --> 00:42:24,461
I just thought
there is such a thing as evil.

557
00:42:27,422 --> 00:42:33,220
Somebody who had blindly served Stalin
for so long.

558
00:42:33,762 --> 00:42:38,350
{\an8}How he could go on serving
such a person, such a cause,

559
00:42:39,184 --> 00:42:41,770
{\an8}as Soviet communism, was beyond me.

560
00:42:42,604 --> 00:42:45,190
He knew better than anyone
what he was doing.

561
00:42:49,111 --> 00:42:53,385
It was the addiction, it was the fun
of betrayal that got to him.

562
00:42:53,386 --> 00:42:57,775
It was the feeling that he was playing
both ends against the middle.

563
00:42:57,776 --> 00:43:02,165
He was the center of the earth.
He was playing the world's game.

564
00:43:02,166 --> 00:43:05,085
It had precious little to do,
in the end, with ideology.

565
00:43:05,086 --> 00:43:06,711
It may have begun as ideology.

566
00:43:06,712 --> 00:43:09,339
After that, it became an addiction,
the betrayal.

567
00:43:09,965 --> 00:43:12,926
If you'd given him your cat
to look after for a couple of weeks,

568
00:43:12,927 --> 00:43:15,012
he'd have betrayed the cat somehow.

569
00:43:23,854 --> 00:43:27,983
I had some inner relationship with Philby.

570
00:43:30,027 --> 00:43:31,987
The temptation, somehow,

571
00:43:34,698 --> 00:43:38,160
to turn your back on everything
you've been taught and picked up

572
00:43:38,161 --> 00:43:39,703
and go your own route.

573
00:43:40,746 --> 00:43:43,624
I can understand
how that happened to Philby.

574
00:43:44,666 --> 00:43:47,877
And I've felt that thank God
I never went in that direction.

575
00:43:47,878 --> 00:43:52,549
But there came a point in my life where
I seemed to be offered the crossroads.

576
00:43:52,550 --> 00:43:55,551
I could have become a really bad guy.

577
00:43:55,552 --> 00:43:59,056
And mercifully, I found a home
for my larceny.

578
00:44:00,974 --> 00:44:04,520
{\an8}[David archive] <i>A writer is slightly
out of tune. He is different.</i>

579
00:44:05,103 --> 00:44:09,399
{\an8}<i>His methods of creation
are the methods of a lonely person</i>

580
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,318
who is borrowing, abstracting
experiences here and there,

581
00:44:12,319 --> 00:44:15,948
and putting them together
and trying to make a parcel, if you like,

582
00:44:15,949 --> 00:44:17,887
which you can then offer to the public.

583
00:44:17,888 --> 00:44:19,825
In that sense, he's an illusionist.

584
00:44:19,826 --> 00:44:22,371
And if people are constantly trying
to look up his sleeve,

585
00:44:22,372 --> 00:44:24,748
then he's going to spoil his trick.

586
00:44:24,749 --> 00:44:25,999
[camera shutter clicks]

587
00:44:27,125 --> 00:44:32,172
For me, writing is a journey
of self-discovery every time.

588
00:44:32,173 --> 00:44:35,926
How characters behave,
how they emerge, who they are,

589
00:44:35,927 --> 00:44:37,385
what appetites they have,

590
00:44:37,386 --> 00:44:40,847
they deliver themselves on the blank page

591
00:44:40,848 --> 00:44:43,475
and they tell me a little bit
about who I am.

592
00:44:46,144 --> 00:44:49,167
{\an8}In writing about George Smiley, of course,

593
00:44:49,168 --> 00:44:52,192
I'm writing about the ideal father
I never had.

594
00:44:55,779 --> 00:44:58,365
These are attempts at self-knowledge.

595
00:44:59,700 --> 00:45:03,245
Little glimpses along
the way of who one really is.

596
00:45:03,246 --> 00:45:05,329
I have never submitted to analysis.

597
00:45:05,330 --> 00:45:10,210
I feel if I knew any secrets about myself,
I'd deprive myself of writing.

598
00:45:12,171 --> 00:45:13,338
[chuckles gently]

599
00:45:15,632 --> 00:45:18,427
[Errol] What did you learn about yourself
from Bill Haydon?

600
00:45:20,846 --> 00:45:24,516
[David] Well, that was something
I guess I already knew.

601
00:45:24,517 --> 00:45:26,977
It was something I knew of Philby, too.

602
00:45:27,519 --> 00:45:31,398
And obviously Haydon is
to some extent modelled on Philby.

603
00:45:31,399 --> 00:45:34,400
An instinct that is latent in me,

604
00:45:34,401 --> 00:45:38,030
which I have never to my knowledge
deployed, used, fallen for,

605
00:45:38,031 --> 00:45:43,618
it's to be king of the world,
as Haydon thought he was.

606
00:45:43,619 --> 00:45:49,541
There was a time when the very pleasure
of being in the secret world

607
00:45:49,542 --> 00:45:52,419
close to what was going on,
what was really going on,

608
00:45:52,420 --> 00:45:54,922
{\an8}filled me with a sense of exultation.

609
00:45:56,924 --> 00:46:01,678
This is, in the Faustian sense, what
the world contains at its inmost point.

610
00:46:01,679 --> 00:46:05,057
[mysterious music]

611
00:46:17,945 --> 00:46:21,365
<i>"Was die Welt im Innersten zusammenhält",</i>
is the line.

612
00:46:30,290 --> 00:46:34,378
[Errol] Then there's that despairing line
in <i>The Secret Pilgrim,</i>

613
00:46:34,379 --> 00:46:36,797
"Knowing that the inmost room..."

614
00:46:37,881 --> 00:46:39,715
"...doesn't contain anything." Yes.

615
00:46:39,716 --> 00:46:43,136
Somehow, we believe
that there is an inmost room

616
00:46:43,137 --> 00:46:45,847
where policy is being conceived.

617
00:46:45,848 --> 00:46:48,600
I think it's being played
completely ad hoc,

618
00:46:48,601 --> 00:46:51,186
from day to day, from hour to hour.

619
00:46:51,187 --> 00:46:52,770
[Errol] History is chaos!

620
00:46:52,771 --> 00:46:58,861
History is chaos, and therefore
to imagine, as I might have done

621
00:46:58,862 --> 00:47:01,613
in my perpetual innocence,

622
00:47:02,364 --> 00:47:08,745
that there was some great secret
to the nature of human behavior.

623
00:47:08,746 --> 00:47:09,830
There is none.

624
00:47:17,713 --> 00:47:22,759
{\an8}[David] "'Spying is eternal, '
Smiley announced simply.

625
00:47:25,804 --> 00:47:31,351
'There's no career on Earth more cockeyed
than the one you've picked.

626
00:47:34,521 --> 00:47:39,276
{\an8}You'll be at your most postable
while you're least experienced.

627
00:47:41,195 --> 00:47:45,199
And by the time you've learned the ropes,
no one will be able to send you anywhere

628
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:48,202
without a trade description
round your necks.

629
00:47:53,999 --> 00:47:59,463
Old athletes know they've played their
best games when they're in their prime.

630
00:48:02,883 --> 00:48:05,969
Spies in their prime are on the shelf.'"

631
00:48:06,553 --> 00:48:08,555
[slow, echoing footsteps]

632
00:48:10,599 --> 00:48:13,644
"'And then, at a certain age,

633
00:48:15,896 --> 00:48:17,856
you want the answer.'

634
00:48:21,401 --> 00:48:25,155
'You want the rolled-up parchment
in the inmost room

635
00:48:26,532 --> 00:48:30,244
that tells you who runs your lives
and why.

636
00:48:39,419 --> 00:48:41,671
The trouble is, that by then,

637
00:48:41,672 --> 00:48:44,466
you're the very people who know best...

638
00:48:46,885 --> 00:48:49,930
...that the inmost room is bare.'"

639
00:48:59,940 --> 00:49:04,528
[Errol] When I read it,
I took it as more deeply existential.

640
00:49:05,445 --> 00:49:10,450
Is the inmost room ourselves?
Maybe there's nothing there?

641
00:49:13,370 --> 00:49:17,457
In my case that is true, yes.
I can't speak for everybody else.

642
00:49:17,458 --> 00:49:19,626
[suspenseful music]

643
00:49:23,589 --> 00:49:27,383
[David] I think we, all of us,
live partly in a clandestine situation

644
00:49:27,384 --> 00:49:32,556
in relation to our bosses, in relation
to our families, our wives, our children.

645
00:49:33,807 --> 00:49:36,810
We frequently affect attitudes
to which we subscribe,

646
00:49:36,811 --> 00:49:39,229
perhaps intellectually,
but not emotionally.

647
00:49:40,981 --> 00:49:43,358
We hardly know ourselves.

648
00:49:44,234 --> 00:49:46,819
The figure of the spy does seem to me

649
00:49:46,820 --> 00:49:50,865
to be almost infinitely capable
of exploitation,

650
00:49:50,866 --> 00:49:55,704
for purposes of articulating all sorts
of submerged things in our society.

651
00:50:05,797 --> 00:50:09,383
[Errol] The experience
that I have reading le Carré is,

652
00:50:09,384 --> 00:50:12,971
"Am I in a world of fiction?
Am I in a world of fact?

653
00:50:12,972 --> 00:50:16,225
Am I in some strange blend
of the two?"

654
00:50:19,603 --> 00:50:21,229
[gunshot]

655
00:50:21,230 --> 00:50:25,442
[David] I really don't think any artist,
whether he's a writer,

656
00:50:25,443 --> 00:50:28,070
a painter, or anybody else,

657
00:50:28,862 --> 00:50:32,949
I don't think he has to explain his work
beyond a certain point.

658
00:50:32,950 --> 00:50:37,079
If it's raised those questions in you,
you're already having a good time.

659
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:39,830
I have tried, over these conversations,

660
00:50:39,831 --> 00:50:44,378
to talk about the process of abstraction
from real life.

661
00:50:44,379 --> 00:50:46,964
Now, I very consciously wrote a book,

662
00:50:47,923 --> 00:50:49,466
<i>A Perfect Spy...</i>

663
00:50:51,426 --> 00:50:57,140
{\an8}...which gave a parallel version, if you
like, of much that had happened to me.

664
00:50:58,058 --> 00:51:02,938
For Ronnie, read Rick,
for me, read Magnus.

665
00:51:04,022 --> 00:51:07,233
I cannot define for you

666
00:51:07,234 --> 00:51:13,282
where reality goes through
the secret door into fiction.

667
00:51:15,033 --> 00:51:19,997
I would much rather go back to the notion
that I painted of,

668
00:51:19,998 --> 00:51:23,959
"I live in that bubble,
and I import stuff."

669
00:51:35,304 --> 00:51:38,682
It is a kind of solitude in the sense that

670
00:51:39,391 --> 00:51:42,019
{\an8}you're not sharing your thoughts
with anyone.

671
00:51:42,686 --> 00:51:43,936
[page turns]

672
00:51:43,937 --> 00:51:48,817
You're composing in secret
from the elements you see around you.

673
00:51:50,402 --> 00:51:56,200
A fictional entity which is rational,
which makes order out of chaos.

674
00:51:56,201 --> 00:51:58,201
I think that's such a normal process.

675
00:51:58,202 --> 00:52:00,495
If I were a painter,
I'd be feeling the same way.

676
00:52:00,496 --> 00:52:02,496
I'd be taking the light, the window

677
00:52:02,497 --> 00:52:07,503
and I would try to make an image
of how I feel now.

678
00:52:09,421 --> 00:52:13,675
[Errol] I was going to ask you how
you do feel now, but that seems silly.

679
00:52:13,676 --> 00:52:15,760
Errol, I feel very comfortable.

680
00:52:15,761 --> 00:52:20,807
I enjoy very much talking about things
I haven't talked about before.

681
00:52:20,808 --> 00:52:25,499
I saw this prospect, at my great age,
as something definitive.

682
00:52:25,500 --> 00:52:30,192
I knew that I was not going to lie.
I wasn't going to fabricate.

683
00:52:30,193 --> 00:52:33,110
I'm not even interested in self-defense,

684
00:52:33,111 --> 00:52:36,406
because I really don't know
what the accusation is in the air.

685
00:52:40,619 --> 00:52:44,289
[David] "Sir Magnus, you have in the past
betrayed me,

686
00:52:45,207 --> 00:52:49,043
but more important,
you have betrayed yourself.

687
00:52:49,044 --> 00:52:52,881
Even when you are telling the truth,
you lie.

688
00:52:52,882 --> 00:52:57,218
You have loyalty and you have affection.

689
00:52:57,219 --> 00:53:00,180
- But to what? To whom?"
- [Axel echoing] <i>To what? To whom?</i>

690
00:53:00,764 --> 00:53:02,348
<i>I don't know.</i>

691
00:53:02,349 --> 00:53:04,309
<i>One day, maybe you will tell me.</i>

692
00:53:06,019 --> 00:53:12,234
What I am saying, Sir Magnus,
you are a perfect spy.

693
00:53:13,443 --> 00:53:15,445
[faint chatter]

694
00:53:21,493 --> 00:53:25,622
[David] Characters don't actually work
until they've got a bit of you in them.

695
00:53:27,583 --> 00:53:29,418
They're just paper men.

696
00:53:30,878 --> 00:53:34,673
I voice my characters.
I read them to myself.

697
00:53:36,049 --> 00:53:38,551
That's terribly important, how they speak.

698
00:53:38,552 --> 00:53:43,182
After that, they kind of tell you who they
are, how they dress, how they move.

699
00:53:55,277 --> 00:54:00,699
[David] That's the emergence of character
as you write, page after page.

700
00:54:03,744 --> 00:54:07,039
{\an8}Gradually, this fellow emerges
and is yours.

701
00:54:09,750 --> 00:54:12,460
My natural instinct
when I meet people

702
00:54:12,461 --> 00:54:15,505
is to consider the possibilities
of their characters.

703
00:54:15,506 --> 00:54:18,674
I begin to invest them with things
they probably don't possess.

704
00:54:18,675 --> 00:54:23,138
Curiously, in the end product, those
features may not be there anymore.

705
00:54:23,847 --> 00:54:26,225
But that's the beginning of the story.

706
00:54:28,769 --> 00:54:31,855
And then I discuss,
what do these people want?

707
00:54:32,856 --> 00:54:38,403
And out of discerning contrary appetites,
you get the essence of conflict.

708
00:54:38,987 --> 00:54:43,158
[Errol] You've written, "The cat sat
on the mat is not a story,

709
00:54:43,159 --> 00:54:46,495
but the cat sat on the dog's mat is."

710
00:54:46,496 --> 00:54:47,578
That's right.

711
00:54:47,579 --> 00:54:50,290
[Errol] And then I have
my le Carré version.

712
00:54:50,291 --> 00:54:51,290
[they laugh]

713
00:54:51,291 --> 00:54:56,046
[Errol] "The cat betrayed the dog
by sitting on his mat."

714
00:54:56,047 --> 00:55:00,592
I think the cat was a double. [laughs]

715
00:55:16,775 --> 00:55:20,070
{\an8}[Errol] Why is betrayal
an important concept to you?

716
00:55:22,489 --> 00:55:25,492
{\an8}[David] Well, it has
a long family background.

717
00:55:28,912 --> 00:55:33,417
Reality did not exist in my childhood,
performance did.

718
00:55:37,129 --> 00:55:42,467
I felt, observing life,
that much of what people said overtly

719
00:55:42,468 --> 00:55:44,635
was not what they thought inwardly.

720
00:55:44,636 --> 00:55:48,849
You have to remember that in each
of the secret services

721
00:55:48,850 --> 00:55:51,685
where I was ineffective but employed.

722
00:55:54,146 --> 00:55:56,439
{\an8}[David] They were the decades of betrayal.

723
00:55:56,440 --> 00:55:58,734
{\an8}You just wondered
who was gonna pop out next.

724
00:56:02,821 --> 00:56:09,821
We received, at MI5, very strong
representations from the Americans

725
00:56:09,828 --> 00:56:13,373
to clean up our act and get rid
of the communists in our midst.

726
00:56:13,374 --> 00:56:16,543
A man appeared

727
00:56:17,044 --> 00:56:20,130
and he had some kind of authority,
which he made clear to you,

728
00:56:20,131 --> 00:56:22,716
and he would say,
"Come around, have a drink."

729
00:56:22,717 --> 00:56:23,799
[birds tweet]

730
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:27,930
And he had a most extraordinary wall
with live birds behind it.

731
00:56:28,639 --> 00:56:30,933
They silently flitted about.

732
00:56:35,646 --> 00:56:37,939
I think he was a fool, I may add.

733
00:56:37,940 --> 00:56:41,692
Must have been some kind of analyst, psychologist.

734
00:56:41,693 --> 00:56:46,073
He would question you in a sort of
fatuous schoolmasterly...

735
00:56:46,074 --> 00:56:48,032
"Getting on all right with your wife,
are you?"

736
00:56:48,033 --> 00:56:52,079
We were all being examined
as potential communist spies.

737
00:56:54,331 --> 00:56:59,794
The comedy in my case was
that I had, for MI5,

738
00:56:59,795 --> 00:57:04,633
entered the communist community
at my university at Oxford.

739
00:57:07,970 --> 00:57:11,389
I was picked up and wooed,
sat in the Soviet embassy,

740
00:57:11,390 --> 00:57:14,810
watched the <i>Battleship Potemkin</i>
about six times,

741
00:57:14,811 --> 00:57:17,229
was fed with vodka and then dropped.

742
00:57:17,855 --> 00:57:19,230
[Errol] It's a good movie.

743
00:57:19,231 --> 00:57:23,652
It's a good movie, except
that it has no happy ending. [laughs]

744
00:57:32,035 --> 00:57:33,287
[gunshot]

745
00:57:34,371 --> 00:57:39,501
[Errol] Wait a second. Is the desire to
be a double agent from the very beginning?

746
00:57:40,085 --> 00:57:41,252
Yes.

747
00:57:41,253 --> 00:57:44,172
It was an extremely exciting thought
at the time.

748
00:57:44,173 --> 00:57:47,050
[Errol] It's not just an agent,
it's a double a...

749
00:57:47,051 --> 00:57:49,928
It happens all the time
with every security service

750
00:57:49,929 --> 00:57:52,555
and every offensive intelligence service.

751
00:57:52,556 --> 00:57:57,059
That you put people up
alongside the recruiter,

752
00:57:57,060 --> 00:58:01,690
hope he will recruit, and then
you own the person he has recruited.

753
00:58:01,691 --> 00:58:06,445
That's, as the Germans would say, <i>normal.</i>

754
00:58:10,240 --> 00:58:13,075
Out of that came
the very painful relationship

755
00:58:13,076 --> 00:58:18,957
{\an8}with the secret head of
the communist group at Oxford at the time,

756
00:58:18,958 --> 00:58:22,794
{\an8}a most innocent man, Stanley Mitchell.

757
00:58:25,380 --> 00:58:29,343
{\an8}We were in the same college,
he was reading Russian and German.

758
00:58:30,552 --> 00:58:32,846
He was of Russian-Jewish extraction.

759
00:58:35,098 --> 00:58:38,227
And we went on a walking holiday together
in Dorset.

760
00:58:38,228 --> 00:58:41,479
He had all the names of students

761
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:45,651
who were members
of the Communist Party at that time.

762
00:58:46,860 --> 00:58:51,323
My job for MI5 was to identify
these people.

763
00:58:52,908 --> 00:58:57,788
And of course, it's horrific.
I was betraying Stanley.

764
00:58:59,289 --> 00:59:01,124
[Axel shouts in distance]

765
00:59:02,042 --> 00:59:07,381
Although, I squirm and I'm horrified
by my behavior now,

766
00:59:07,382 --> 00:59:10,174
I still think it had to be done.

767
00:59:10,175 --> 00:59:14,972
Stanley, in later years,
made the very simple deduction

768
00:59:14,973 --> 00:59:16,889
that I was that person in his life.

769
00:59:16,890 --> 00:59:21,270
It upset him terribly.
"It was you, Judas. You swine.

770
00:59:22,980 --> 00:59:27,484
How could anybody do it?
How could anybody be as foul as you?"

771
00:59:29,403 --> 00:59:30,946
[Errol] And your defense?

772
00:59:31,947 --> 00:59:35,701
Was, "Well, sorry, Stanley, but you
belong to a revolutionary movement

773
00:59:35,702 --> 00:59:38,953
which was determined
to destabilize our country.

774
00:59:38,954 --> 00:59:44,168
We were, at that time, technically at war
with the Soviet Union.

775
00:59:44,169 --> 00:59:45,919
You were on the wrong side."

776
00:59:49,298 --> 00:59:51,924
[Errol] Can you be so sure
that you're on the right side

777
00:59:51,925 --> 00:59:55,762
- as opposed to the wrong side?
- Of course not. No. Of course not.

778
01:00:06,732 --> 01:00:11,236
[Errol] In <i>A Perfect Spy,</i> why the need
to have the son kill himself?

779
01:00:14,865 --> 01:00:18,911
{\an8}[David] Firstly, because he knew that
as a double agent, he was rumbled.

780
01:00:22,247 --> 01:00:25,125
He could have cut a deal, I suppose,
in the real world.

781
01:00:25,751 --> 01:00:28,337
I think he also found life insupportable.

782
01:00:29,922 --> 01:00:34,051
And he was ashamed
in the eyes of his child.

783
01:00:36,011 --> 01:00:38,555
[Errol] Did Ronnie have a sense of shame?

784
01:00:39,348 --> 01:00:40,681
I really don't believe so.

785
01:00:40,682 --> 01:00:44,603
I've heard him do it,
kind of through the keyhole,

786
01:00:45,562 --> 01:00:47,689
to the first of my stepmothers.

787
01:00:49,066 --> 01:00:52,402
Howling he would never do something again.

788
01:00:52,903 --> 01:00:54,445
I don't know that he did shame,

789
01:00:54,446 --> 01:00:57,282
I don't know
how he could live with himself.

790
01:00:57,283 --> 01:01:01,035
Living with his fantasies,

791
01:01:01,036 --> 01:01:04,998
which didn't necessarily begin
as criminal plans

792
01:01:04,999 --> 01:01:08,292
but it... it was like writing a novel,

793
01:01:08,293 --> 01:01:12,506
in the sense that he would
hear the right line,

794
01:01:12,507 --> 01:01:16,176
or spot in the crowd some clue.

795
01:01:16,718 --> 01:01:19,429
And that would be the beginning of a scam.

796
01:01:19,430 --> 01:01:24,518
[pensive music]

797
01:01:25,644 --> 01:01:30,440
[David] "I am in the city of Exeter,
walking across a patch of wasteland.

798
01:01:32,109 --> 01:01:35,195
I'm holding the hand of my mother, Olive.

799
01:01:35,904 --> 01:01:40,137
As she was wearing gloves,
there is no fleshly contact

800
01:01:40,138 --> 01:01:44,371
and indeed, so far as I recall,
there never was any.

801
01:01:47,332 --> 01:01:51,879
At the far side of the wasteland is
a grim, flat-fronted building

802
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:54,965
with barred windows
and no light inside them."

803
01:01:54,966 --> 01:01:57,092
[pigeon coos softly]

804
01:02:01,138 --> 01:02:03,639
"And in one of these barred windows,

805
01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:08,770
looking exactly like a Monopoly convict,
stands my father.

806
01:02:09,521 --> 01:02:12,732
I wave at Ronnie high up in the wall

807
01:02:12,733 --> 01:02:15,569
and Ronnie waves the way he always waved."

808
01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:17,946
[young David] Daddy, Daddy!

809
01:02:20,282 --> 01:02:22,826
[David] "On Olive's hand,
I march back to the car,

810
01:02:22,827 --> 01:02:24,786
feeling thoroughly pleased with myself.

811
01:02:27,247 --> 01:02:31,460
Not every small boy, after all,
has his mother to himself

812
01:02:31,461 --> 01:02:33,754
and keeps his father in a cage."

813
01:02:33,755 --> 01:02:35,088
[cell door slams]

814
01:02:40,093 --> 01:02:43,387
"But according to my father,
none of this happened.

815
01:02:43,388 --> 01:02:46,266
The notion that I might have seen him
in any of his prisons

816
01:02:46,267 --> 01:02:48,477
offended him very much."

817
01:02:50,771 --> 01:02:54,149
[Ronnie] <i>Sheer invention
from start to finish, son.</i>

818
01:02:54,816 --> 01:02:58,152
<i>Anyone who knows the inside of Exeter jail</i>

819
01:02:58,153 --> 01:03:03,033
<i>knows perfectly well
you can't see the road from the cells.</i>

820
01:03:05,494 --> 01:03:07,349
[cell door clanks, slams]

821
01:03:07,350 --> 01:03:09,206
[David] "And I believe him.

822
01:03:10,749 --> 01:03:12,708
I'm wrong and he was right.

823
01:03:12,709 --> 01:03:15,879
He was never at that window
and I never waved to him.

824
01:03:16,463 --> 01:03:18,924
But what's the truth? What's memory?

825
01:03:19,633 --> 01:03:21,259
We should find another name

826
01:03:21,260 --> 01:03:25,055
for the way we see past events
that are still alive in us."

827
01:03:32,062 --> 01:03:36,483
[Errol] I don't think confronting you
is the right way to put it.

828
01:03:37,609 --> 01:03:41,280
But there was something
that you said that I found curious

829
01:03:42,406 --> 01:03:45,492
and worth further examination.

830
01:03:46,410 --> 01:03:50,581
Maybe this is an interrogation.
Maybe I am self-deceived.

831
01:03:52,374 --> 01:03:56,170
I can't imagine that as an interrogator
or an interviewer,

832
01:03:56,171 --> 01:03:59,089
you aren't also in part
looking for yourself.

833
01:04:00,007 --> 01:04:03,343
I don't think that we really can
penetrate people very much,

834
01:04:04,970 --> 01:04:09,057
but we can form imaginings about them
and then we relate to them.

835
01:04:16,815 --> 01:04:22,529
[Errol] You hired private detectives
[laughing] to investigate your father.

836
01:04:23,780 --> 01:04:28,535
[David] One fat, one thin.
I asked my solicitor,

837
01:04:28,536 --> 01:04:29,994
"How can I get hold of these people?"

838
01:04:29,995 --> 01:04:32,663
He said, "Well, don't tell them
I told you,

839
01:04:32,664 --> 01:04:35,584
but these are about the most ruthless men
[laughing] I know."

840
01:04:35,585 --> 01:04:38,962
{\an8}I hired them,
at an absurdly large sum of money.

841
01:04:42,299 --> 01:04:44,676
[David] Really, they came on very little.

842
01:04:51,683 --> 01:04:58,482
{\an8}A much more reliable source for Ronnie's
first criminal case and imprisonment

843
01:04:58,483 --> 01:05:00,817
{\an8}is the local press of the day.

844
01:05:04,947 --> 01:05:09,159
He got, I think, a four-year sentence
for fraud at a very young age,

845
01:05:09,160 --> 01:05:11,911
but then he was taken out in mid-sentence

846
01:05:11,912 --> 01:05:15,374
and given a second sentence,
uh, with hard labor.

847
01:05:15,375 --> 01:05:17,750
I once said, "How bad was it?"

848
01:05:17,751 --> 01:05:20,003
He said, "Well, the Gypsies
were the worst."

849
01:05:20,004 --> 01:05:22,089
And he's talking about handicuffs.

850
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:29,471
{\an8}Ronnie had a big chest. I think he was
capable of being very physical himself.

851
01:05:34,226 --> 01:05:41,149
{\an8}[David] I was in Chicago promoting
a British week, riding on London buses,

852
01:05:41,900 --> 01:05:45,445
pretending to make phone calls
from telephone kiosks.

853
01:05:52,119 --> 01:05:55,455
The British consul-general
then handed me a telegram

854
01:05:55,456 --> 01:05:59,251
{\an8}he'd received from the embassy in Jakarta.

855
01:06:03,297 --> 01:06:08,594
Saying Ronnie was in prison, it would
take so much money to get him out.

856
01:06:08,595 --> 01:06:10,929
Would I agree to pay it?

857
01:06:14,808 --> 01:06:17,936
It wasn't an enormous sum,
but it was quite painful all the same,

858
01:06:17,937 --> 01:06:20,313
and that got him out.

859
01:06:20,314 --> 01:06:23,650
And we never talked about it
until I did much later and he said,

860
01:06:23,651 --> 01:06:26,235
"Oh, it was nothing, just currency stuff."

861
01:06:26,236 --> 01:06:29,530
We now know that he was engaged
in arms dealing

862
01:06:29,531 --> 01:06:35,078
at a time when Indonesia was
just recovering from a huge genocide.

863
01:06:40,292 --> 01:06:44,629
But then the last time, to my knowledge,
that he was in prison,

864
01:06:44,630 --> 01:06:48,967
he was in the Bezirksgefängnis,
the district prison in Zurich

865
01:06:48,968 --> 01:06:50,927
for swindling hotels.

866
01:06:50,928 --> 01:06:53,846
He was allowed a reverse charge call
to me.

867
01:06:53,847 --> 01:06:58,060
He said, "I can't do any more jail, son.
Get me out."

868
01:06:59,186 --> 01:07:00,686
And that was money again.

869
01:07:00,687 --> 01:07:04,942
I mean, it wasn't big money,
but it was extremely painful to me.

870
01:07:04,943 --> 01:07:06,275
[cell door slams]

871
01:07:06,276 --> 01:07:12,407
I still have nightmare visions of this
hugely active physical man, caged.

872
01:07:14,409 --> 01:07:17,246
In the aggregate,
I don't know how much prison he did.

873
01:07:18,455 --> 01:07:21,500
Probably altogether no more
than six or seven years.

874
01:07:22,543 --> 01:07:26,171
But what effect it had on him,
I can't imagine.

875
01:07:26,172 --> 01:07:28,089
[unsettling music]

876
01:07:28,090 --> 01:07:30,592
[indistinct prisoners chatter]

877
01:07:36,557 --> 01:07:38,809
[Errol] By the way, Ronnie sued you!

878
01:07:39,977 --> 01:07:45,566
[David] Yes, he did. I gave an interview
to London Weekend Television.

879
01:07:47,067 --> 01:07:50,988
I omitted to say
that I owed everything to him.

880
01:07:52,865 --> 01:07:55,284
I didn't want to give Ronnie the credit.

881
01:07:57,035 --> 01:08:00,205
Why should I find a line
that said I owed it all to my father?

882
01:08:00,206 --> 01:08:06,503
But the reality probably is,
in many ways, that I do.

883
01:08:18,390 --> 01:08:20,767
[David archive] <i>I've never felt
I belonged anywhere,</i>

884
01:08:20,768 --> 01:08:22,998
<i>I've been very lucky in that respect.</i>

885
01:08:22,999 --> 01:08:25,229
<i>I've had a very rich life.</i>

886
01:08:25,939 --> 01:08:29,484
<i>And I've seen a lot of institutions
and a lot of things.</i>

887
01:08:30,569 --> 01:08:33,946
<i>I've led a lot of lives, in an odd way.</i>

888
01:08:33,947 --> 01:08:36,491
<i>I don't feel that I belong to any of them.</i>

889
01:08:37,117 --> 01:08:41,705
<i>What I am left with is
a sense of being on my own.</i>

890
01:08:47,085 --> 01:08:49,754
[Errol] Was your father
tortured by the fact

891
01:08:49,755 --> 01:08:54,009
that you became rich and successful
and he did not?

892
01:08:56,303 --> 01:08:57,513
[David] I don't know.

893
01:08:59,680 --> 01:09:03,976
The principal effect
of my success upon him

894
01:09:03,977 --> 01:09:08,272
was to create in him
a sense of entitlement.

895
01:09:08,273 --> 01:09:12,778
He bought huge quantities of my books,
usually on credit, signed them,

896
01:09:12,779 --> 01:09:14,946
"From the author's father."

897
01:09:14,947 --> 01:09:17,115
Gave them around like confetti.

898
01:09:23,121 --> 01:09:29,795
I met the hard-edge, the real edge,
I suppose, when he summoned me to Vienna.

899
01:09:33,590 --> 01:09:34,841
"Son,

900
01:09:35,884 --> 01:09:38,385
I've worked out
what your education cost me.

901
01:09:38,386 --> 01:09:41,807
And I have some idea of the kind of money
you're making."

902
01:09:43,225 --> 01:09:45,559
And then he went on to make a pitch.

903
01:09:45,560 --> 01:09:49,898
"Son, all I've ever wanted in my life
is pigs and cattle,

904
01:09:49,899 --> 01:09:52,943
and then a little piece of Dorset.
Pigs and cattle.

905
01:09:53,484 --> 01:09:57,739
Somewhere nice to live, nice lady
to live with, and I'll be all right.

906
01:09:58,699 --> 01:10:01,618
So, what I need is..."
And he named an enormous sum of money.

907
01:10:01,619 --> 01:10:05,414
"Father, I can't do that.
It makes no sense to me.

908
01:10:05,998 --> 01:10:10,377
What I will do, if that's really what
you want, with your pigs and cattle,

909
01:10:10,378 --> 01:10:13,171
is I will buy a house and own it
and put you into it.

910
01:10:13,172 --> 01:10:15,966
I will make an allowance to you
for running your farm.

911
01:10:15,967 --> 01:10:18,176
I don't trust you for one second."

912
01:10:18,177 --> 01:10:22,806
He actually had appointed me a mark.
He was going to con me.

913
01:10:23,348 --> 01:10:27,269
And I'd join the club of people
on the roadside.

914
01:10:27,270 --> 01:10:28,789
And I wasn't going to let that happen.

915
01:10:30,230 --> 01:10:32,982
We were in Sachers, in Vienna,

916
01:10:32,983 --> 01:10:36,528
the most refined, excellent restaurant
in those days.

917
01:10:37,237 --> 01:10:41,033
He let out the most awful feral howl.

918
01:10:41,825 --> 01:10:46,496
And shouted, "You're paying
your own father to sit on his arse!"

919
01:10:46,497 --> 01:10:50,813
In a voice that could have been heard
across the street.

920
01:10:50,814 --> 01:10:55,130
And then he emitted this howl, howl,
half rose to his feet,

921
01:10:55,131 --> 01:11:00,176
and I put my arm
round his very ample back,

922
01:11:00,177 --> 01:11:06,808
and we hobbled to the front door
of the... of the hotel,

923
01:11:08,227 --> 01:11:13,398
down some steps, then there was a cab and
he looked up at me in supplicant's face,

924
01:11:13,399 --> 01:11:15,776
"How am I going to pay for this cab?"

925
01:11:16,985 --> 01:11:19,404
And I gave the driver some money.

926
01:11:20,072 --> 01:11:21,697
And off he went.

927
01:11:21,698 --> 01:11:26,286
I could've accepted his pitch,
at least given him some money.

928
01:11:27,329 --> 01:11:32,167
But I was so angry that it was a pain
to pay for the cab.

929
01:11:32,960 --> 01:11:36,046
[Errol] But it's a feeling
of being betrayed.

930
01:11:36,672 --> 01:11:41,552
Yes, it is. There was quite a bit of that
in it. "How can you do this to me?"

931
01:11:41,553 --> 01:11:42,719
[melancholy music]

932
01:11:48,058 --> 01:11:50,811
[Guillam] Come on, old friend.
It's bedtime.

933
01:11:52,563 --> 01:11:55,399
George? You won.

934
01:11:58,902 --> 01:11:59,987
[Smiley] Did I?

935
01:12:02,114 --> 01:12:03,198
Yes.

936
01:12:04,825 --> 01:12:06,410
Yes, I suppose I did.

937
01:12:14,960 --> 01:12:16,587
[Errol] Did you love Ronnie?

938
01:12:17,421 --> 01:12:19,526
I really don't know what love is.

939
01:12:19,527 --> 01:12:21,633
I must have loved him as a child.

940
01:12:22,134 --> 01:12:25,971
But then, the consequences of his life
became clear to me.

941
01:12:26,805 --> 01:12:31,226
Later in life, when he wanted everything
I had, like my money.

942
01:12:33,187 --> 01:12:36,857
I was able to pull out
the necessary stops.

943
01:12:36,858 --> 01:12:39,317
I could do affection with him.

944
01:12:39,318 --> 01:12:43,530
I could do indifference
and, secretly, I could do hatred.

945
01:12:43,531 --> 01:12:45,531
Those things exist, actually,

946
01:12:45,532 --> 01:12:48,159
in any father-son relationship
at different times.

947
01:12:48,160 --> 01:12:52,331
They're like seasons. I had to muster
hatred in order to escape him.

948
01:13:02,841 --> 01:13:04,885
{\an8}[David] They had three funerals for him.

949
01:13:06,678 --> 01:13:08,263
{\an8}I went to the first one.

950
01:13:09,389 --> 01:13:12,476
{\an8}I was urged to make a speech
and declined.

951
01:13:12,477 --> 01:13:15,394
And then there was another funeral

952
01:13:15,395 --> 01:13:18,232
and then, God help us,
there was a memorial service.

953
01:13:18,233 --> 01:13:20,275
But I didn't go to either of those.

954
01:13:22,778 --> 01:13:26,907
I wanted to believe that
my feelings were dead.

955
01:13:27,908 --> 01:13:29,451
And I've never seen his grave.

956
01:13:31,828 --> 01:13:33,997
[birds sing]

957
01:13:35,457 --> 01:13:37,835
[Errol] But you paid for the funerals.

958
01:13:38,919 --> 01:13:40,419
I'm sure I did, yes.

959
01:13:40,420 --> 01:13:42,797
I paid for everybody's funerals.
[chuckles]

960
01:13:42,798 --> 01:13:46,030
I paid for my mother's funeral.
I mean, I paid for them.

961
01:13:46,031 --> 01:13:49,263
What... What the hell does that mean?
I'm well off, I paid.

962
01:13:51,723 --> 01:13:55,726
The most loyal of his servants,

963
01:13:55,727 --> 01:13:59,439
who had done jail for him,
was a man called Arthur Lowe.

964
01:13:59,440 --> 01:14:03,819
All these people have monosyllables
as surnames.

965
01:14:03,820 --> 01:14:05,696
There was a Mister Bent,
believe it or not.

966
01:14:07,781 --> 01:14:12,618
I went to Jermyn Street
immediately upon hearing of his death

967
01:14:12,619 --> 01:14:16,957
to see whether there was anything there
to be redeemed and to be present.

968
01:14:17,916 --> 01:14:23,422
Arthur said, "Let's all go and have a bit
of a blowout. Do us good.

969
01:14:23,423 --> 01:14:26,216
Let's go to Jules Bar across the road."

970
01:14:28,093 --> 01:14:30,803
So, about eight of us went,
and Arthur presided.

971
01:14:30,804 --> 01:14:34,516
We had champagne and oysters,
w-w-whatever the hell we wanted.

972
01:14:34,517 --> 01:14:36,934
We thought we'd cheer ourselves up.
Or Arthur did.

973
01:14:36,935 --> 01:14:42,399
Very graciously, he paid.
And it was his party, it was fine.

974
01:14:43,066 --> 01:14:47,321
{\an8}It's my party, George.
I'll get the bill when I'm ready.

975
01:14:51,074 --> 01:14:53,826
Two days later, I got the receipt
in the post.

976
01:14:53,827 --> 01:14:57,164
"Will I please [laughs] adjust
as soon as possible?"

977
01:14:57,165 --> 01:14:59,248
Ronnie never had money.

978
01:14:59,249 --> 01:15:05,422
He made killings, but as soon as he made
a killing, on the... the sound principle,

979
01:15:05,423 --> 01:15:11,053
that expenditure always exceeds income...
it was gone again.

980
01:15:14,556 --> 01:15:18,142
He was some kind of crisis addict.

981
01:15:18,143 --> 01:15:21,313
I think he had to be living on the edge
all the time.

982
01:15:23,065 --> 01:15:25,566
And I think he certainly persuaded himself

983
01:15:25,567 --> 01:15:29,571
that this was an honorable and valuable
contribution to the community

984
01:15:29,572 --> 01:15:33,033
and they would be happy
and he would be mountainously rich.

985
01:15:33,034 --> 01:15:36,495
And mind you, he was within a whisker
of that happening.

986
01:15:40,499 --> 01:15:43,794
I'm not making a case for him,
I'm just trying to tell you

987
01:15:43,795 --> 01:15:49,466
how close he was
to being a successful man.

988
01:15:50,050 --> 01:15:53,178
And how absolutely absurd
were his fantasies.

989
01:15:53,179 --> 01:15:55,347
- [slamming]
- [pigeon coos]

990
01:16:04,815 --> 01:16:06,983
[Errol] But the world runs on fantasy.

991
01:16:06,984 --> 01:16:12,030
[David] I agree. The membrane between
what he does or failed to do,

992
01:16:12,031 --> 01:16:16,034
and enormously wealthy and successful
and honored people

993
01:16:16,035 --> 01:16:18,579
that membrane was very, very feeble.

994
01:16:19,246 --> 01:16:22,958
[traffic hums]

995
01:16:25,002 --> 01:16:28,463
[David] "Ronnie is dead
and I am revisiting Vienna

996
01:16:29,673 --> 01:16:31,549
in order to breathe the city air

997
01:16:31,550 --> 01:16:35,304
while I write him into
the semi-autobiographical novel

998
01:16:35,305 --> 01:16:37,472
I am at last free to ponder.

999
01:16:42,144 --> 01:16:43,687
Not the Sacher again.

1000
01:16:44,229 --> 01:16:46,439
I have a dread that the waiters
will remember

1001
01:16:46,440 --> 01:16:51,486
Ronnie crashing down onto the table
and me half carrying him out.

1002
01:16:53,405 --> 01:16:56,073
My plane into Schwechat is delayed

1003
01:16:56,074 --> 01:16:59,828
and the reception desk of the hotel
that I have chosen at random

1004
01:16:59,829 --> 01:17:02,873
is in the charge
of an elderly night porter.

1005
01:17:06,376 --> 01:17:10,047
He looks on silently
as I fill in the registration form.

1006
01:17:10,964 --> 01:17:16,303
Then he speaks in soft,
venerable Viennese German.

1007
01:17:18,347 --> 01:17:21,558
'Your father was a great man, ' he says.

1008
01:17:21,559 --> 01:17:24,019
'You treated him disgracefully.'"

1009
01:17:28,941 --> 01:17:32,735
[Errol] I keep hearing again
and again and again

1010
01:17:32,736 --> 01:17:37,365
that I have not pressed you
hard enough about betrayal.

1011
01:17:37,366 --> 01:17:41,994
I have failed in my interviewer's
or interrogator's job.

1012
01:17:41,995 --> 01:17:47,750
Well, I feel that you got the last drop
out of the sponge on that subject.

1013
01:17:47,751 --> 01:17:53,507
But I'll answer any question you wish me
to answer, as truthfully as I can.

1014
01:17:53,508 --> 01:17:56,218
[Errol] Do they want you
to break down and sob?

1015
01:17:56,219 --> 01:17:59,846
And weep? Yeah. I... I can do that.

1016
01:17:59,847 --> 01:18:03,474
Like I can do bird noises. [chuckles]

1017
01:18:03,475 --> 01:18:08,438
I'm not going to talk about my sex life,
any more, I trust, than you would.

1018
01:18:08,439 --> 01:18:10,898
It seems to be
an intensely private matter.

1019
01:18:10,899 --> 01:18:15,132
My love life has been a very difficult
passage, as you would imagine,

1020
01:18:15,133 --> 01:18:19,366
but it's resolved itself wonderfully,
and that's enough on that subject.

1021
01:18:21,451 --> 01:18:24,705
[Errol] So, what do people want?

1022
01:18:25,581 --> 01:18:31,503
They want to think that I am duplicitous,

1023
01:18:32,880 --> 01:18:34,797
false-tongued,

1024
01:18:34,798 --> 01:18:39,011
that I use my charm as a wreckers' light

1025
01:18:40,053 --> 01:18:42,806
and probably that I torture my children.

1026
01:18:43,557 --> 01:18:46,350
They want to unmask me as something,

1027
01:18:46,351 --> 01:18:50,230
but I need to know
what is behind the mask first.

1028
01:18:51,398 --> 01:18:54,193
You have all I am, as far as I know.

1029
01:18:59,615 --> 01:19:04,286
{\an8}[Errol] In your memoir, you say none
of it's true, it's as I imagined it.

1030
01:19:07,289 --> 01:19:12,836
[David] Inside the bubble,
I am abstracting from non-fiction

1031
01:19:12,837 --> 01:19:14,338
and fictionalizing it.

1032
01:19:15,297 --> 01:19:20,302
I want to take tidy stories
out of the perceived reality around me.

1033
01:19:23,639 --> 01:19:28,101
{\an8}But I didn't do any of that derring-do
stuff that is reported in my books.

1034
01:19:30,229 --> 01:19:35,025
[Errol] But why tell people that a story
is false right at the very beginning?

1035
01:19:36,360 --> 01:19:39,446
[David] If you and I had witnessed
the same car accident,

1036
01:19:40,489 --> 01:19:43,283
each would have his version
of what had happened.

1037
01:19:44,243 --> 01:19:45,911
So, what is truth?

1038
01:19:47,329 --> 01:19:52,125
Objective truth is perceived
by some absent third party,

1039
01:19:53,085 --> 01:19:56,338
but otherwise, truth is subjective.

1040
01:19:58,674 --> 01:20:03,094
[Errol] Who is that third party? God?

1041
01:20:03,095 --> 01:20:07,558
There is some kind of factual record
which we'll never get our hands on.

1042
01:20:09,101 --> 01:20:10,561
[footsteps echo]

1043
01:20:11,562 --> 01:20:16,420
My business has been
to try to make credible fables

1044
01:20:16,421 --> 01:20:21,280
out of the worlds that I visited
or visited me.

1045
01:20:32,708 --> 01:20:35,752
The journey for me has been
one of the imagination.

1046
01:20:37,004 --> 01:20:39,715
The imaginative refuge from reality.

1047
01:20:42,551 --> 01:20:45,429
The recreation of chaos.

1048
01:20:47,055 --> 01:20:51,435
Not in an orderly way, but in
a comprehensible, individualized way

1049
01:20:52,895 --> 01:20:59,895
that makes people feel not à la
James Bond,

1050
01:20:59,902 --> 01:21:01,403
"I wish this was me."

1051
01:21:02,196 --> 01:21:07,242
But more kind of,
"Jesus, I hope this isn't me."

1052
01:21:08,035 --> 01:21:10,621
[mysterious music]

1053
01:21:17,252 --> 01:21:20,463
[David] "When I was a young
and carefree spy,

1054
01:21:20,464 --> 01:21:25,677
it was only natural that I should believe
that the nation's hottest secrets

1055
01:21:25,678 --> 01:21:29,430
were housed in a chipped, green Chubbsafe

1056
01:21:29,431 --> 01:21:34,144
that was tucked away at the end
of a labyrinth of dingy corridors...

1057
01:21:35,729 --> 01:21:38,649
on the top floor of 54 Broadway...

1058
01:21:39,942 --> 01:21:44,738
...in the private office occupied
by the Chief of the Secret Service.

1059
01:21:46,657 --> 01:21:50,618
{\an8}I had heard that there existed
documents so secret

1060
01:21:50,619 --> 01:21:54,581
{\an8}that they were only ever touched
by the Chief himself.

1061
01:21:57,918 --> 01:22:00,253
And now the sad day is upon us

1062
01:22:00,254 --> 01:22:04,633
when the final curtain
will be run down on Broadway Buildings.

1063
01:22:07,261 --> 01:22:10,012
Is the Chief's safe exempt?

1064
01:22:10,013 --> 01:22:13,976
Will cranes, crowbars, and silent men
convey it bodily

1065
01:22:13,977 --> 01:22:17,688
to the next stage
along its life's long journey?

1066
01:22:19,940 --> 01:22:23,068
It is reluctantly ruled
that the safe will be opened."

1067
01:22:23,069 --> 01:22:24,152
[keys jingle]

1068
01:22:26,238 --> 01:22:28,489
[shouts] So, who's got the bloody key?

1069
01:22:28,490 --> 01:22:30,409
[David] "Not the reigning chief,
apparently."

1070
01:22:30,410 --> 01:22:31,534
[Chief] Ah!

1071
01:22:31,535 --> 01:22:34,621
[David] "He has made a point
of never venturing inside the safe.

1072
01:22:36,164 --> 01:22:38,458
What you don't know, you can't reveal."

1073
01:22:40,210 --> 01:22:41,545
[Chief] Useless!

1074
01:22:42,296 --> 01:22:44,047
Send for Burglar Bill.

1075
01:22:45,299 --> 01:22:48,510
[David] "The Service has picked
a few locks in its day,

1076
01:22:48,511 --> 01:22:51,263
so it looks like time to pick another."

1077
01:23:05,777 --> 01:23:06,945
[lock clunks]

1078
01:23:11,658 --> 01:23:13,368
[dial clicks]

1079
01:23:18,916 --> 01:23:20,709
[David] "The lock yields."

1080
01:23:20,710 --> 01:23:21,919
[lock clunks]

1081
01:23:22,711 --> 01:23:25,214
[David] "The safe is empty. Bare.

1082
01:23:25,964 --> 01:23:29,843
Innocent of even the most mundane secret."

1083
01:23:30,677 --> 01:23:31,803
Wait!

1084
01:23:32,679 --> 01:23:37,726
Is it a decoy safe
to protect an inner sanctum?

1085
01:23:42,022 --> 01:23:45,108
[David] "The safe is gently prized
from the wall.

1086
01:23:47,361 --> 01:23:49,905
The Chief peers behind it."

1087
01:23:49,906 --> 01:23:51,156
[Chief grunts]

1088
01:23:52,449 --> 01:23:57,996
[David] "And extracts a very thick,
very old pair of trousers,

1089
01:23:59,289 --> 01:24:01,166
with a label attached to them.

1090
01:24:01,834 --> 01:24:08,465
The typed inscription declares that these
are the trousers worn by Rudolf Hess..."

1091
01:24:09,049 --> 01:24:10,050
[thunder]

1092
01:24:10,551 --> 01:24:14,136
"...Adolf Hitler's deputy
when he flew to Scotland

1093
01:24:14,137 --> 01:24:18,433
to negotiate a separate peace
with the Duke of Hamilton.

1094
01:24:19,309 --> 01:24:24,648
In the mistaken belief that
the Duke shared his fascist views."

1095
01:24:28,986 --> 01:24:31,989
[aircraft engine thrums]

1096
01:24:32,990 --> 01:24:35,117
[engine rattles]

1097
01:25:01,018 --> 01:25:04,813
[David] "Beneath the inscription
runs a handwritten scrawl."

1098
01:25:06,440 --> 01:25:08,108
[aircraft roars]

1099
01:25:09,318 --> 01:25:11,445
"Please analyze.

1100
01:25:12,529 --> 01:25:18,619
May give an idea of the state
of the German textile industry."

1101
01:25:20,287 --> 01:25:23,457
[Chief laughs]

1102
01:25:25,375 --> 01:25:28,462
[he continues to laugh]

1103
01:25:30,255 --> 01:25:36,053
[David] That was a story about
men from a diminished imperial power

1104
01:25:36,054 --> 01:25:39,555
looking into a false reflection
of themselves.

1105
01:25:39,556 --> 01:25:44,394
Still guarding a great nation,
still playing the world's game.

1106
01:25:45,646 --> 01:25:51,151
And in fact, they were
a tragically reduced crowd

1107
01:25:52,236 --> 01:25:54,321
driven by their own nostalgia.

1108
01:25:55,739 --> 01:25:57,991
[Errol] And when you look in the mirror?

1109
01:25:59,618 --> 01:26:00,994
Now? Today?

1110
01:26:01,620 --> 01:26:06,270
I'm much more at ease
with myself now, in age.

1111
01:26:06,271 --> 01:26:09,992
More reconciled to who I was.
And who I was not.

1112
01:26:09,993 --> 01:26:13,715
So, I'm not too unhappy
when I look in the mirror,

1113
01:26:13,716 --> 01:26:16,009
unless I've got a dreadful hangover.

1114
01:26:16,844 --> 01:26:21,473
[Errol] I look at you
as an exquisite poet of self-hatred.

1115
01:26:21,474 --> 01:26:24,517
Yeah, I would go with that. [laughs]

1116
01:26:24,518 --> 01:26:30,899
I think that it's only in the last few
years that I feel I've found my freedom,

1117
01:26:30,900 --> 01:26:33,943
and I love being what I am best at.

1118
01:26:33,944 --> 01:26:38,260
Not just being a writer,
that's incidental, but writing.

1119
01:26:38,261 --> 01:26:42,578
Without the creative life,
I have very little identity.

1120
01:26:42,579 --> 01:26:45,913
I'm like an actor without a part.

1121
01:26:45,914 --> 01:26:51,879
With the work, I am as near as I get
to being a happy man.

1122
01:26:52,838 --> 01:26:54,798
And I love, I love writing.

1123
01:26:55,674 --> 01:26:57,342
So, I am that animal.

1124
01:26:58,260 --> 01:27:03,807
And I dare hardly use the claim,
but I'll make it here, I'm an artist.

1125
01:27:03,808 --> 01:27:06,163
[somber music]

1126
01:27:06,164 --> 01:27:08,520
[pigeons coo]