1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,439 The computer system Post Office spent an arm and a leg on is faulty. 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:07,639 We're ready to mount and fund an independent review. 3 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:09,999 - Angela, nice to meet you. - Here to help. 4 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:12,279 We are hearing from Bob that your organisation 5 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:15,119 has been obstructive to his independent work. 6 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:17,759 But this is about the reputation of the Post Office. 7 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:21,480 You are the Chief Executive, so the buck stops with you. 8 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:25,559 Blood on their hands now. 9 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:27,799 I am told that people are walking out 10 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:29,399 of their mediation meetings. 11 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:31,799 Our lawyers advised that no mediation scheme 12 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:34,399 has the power to overturn a criminal conviction. 13 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:36,399 You have broken your words to Parliament. 14 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:38,679 They say there's no remote access to branch accounts, 15 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:39,999 but they're lying. 16 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:42,359 There was a whole room full of us inside Fujitsu 17 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,079 doing thousands of corrections on Horizon 18 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:47,159 while the postmasters slept. 19 00:00:47,160 --> 00:00:48,919 It may be possible to raise the money 20 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:51,839 to fight them in court, but only if there are enough of you. 21 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,239 - How many would you need? - At least 500. 22 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:55,520 I can do that. 23 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:52,159 'Hard to believe it's eight years since our first meeting.' 24 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:55,879 Even harder to believe that finally, 25 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:59,759 555 of us now, 26 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:02,919 ready to tell our stories to a court. 27 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:06,039 That's all fine and dandy, Alan, but... 28 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:07,799 how are we gonna pay for it? 29 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,559 Er, well, James is the expert. 30 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,319 Er, there are a few specialist funders 31 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:17,279 who are prepared to take on this kind of risk. 32 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:21,679 If we win, we pay them back out of your compensation. 33 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:23,679 If we lose, please? 34 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:27,199 Well, then they lose too. Their entire investment. 35 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,079 It is high risk. 36 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:35,079 Win or lose, it costs a fortune. 37 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:38,960 And there's no guarantee we'll ever see a penny. 38 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:42,879 And I... I want to make it clear 39 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,839 that there are a few other things this group litigation 40 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:48,640 is not going to do for us. 41 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:51,520 I'm sorry, Jo. 42 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:54,959 Sorry, Noel. 43 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,600 But it's not going to overturn any criminal convictions. 44 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:03,119 It's not going to discharge anyone's bankruptcies. 45 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:04,279 One day. 46 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,839 It's not going to... to get back any house repossessions, 47 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:12,479 and it's not going to repair anyone's shattered health. 48 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:14,599 Or bring back those we've lost. 49 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,319 Well, also, er... 50 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,279 I've got to say, there's a few of us here 51 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:24,479 who've not much faith in the law after everything that's happened. 52 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,639 Believe in British justice, that's what they say. 53 00:03:27,640 --> 00:03:29,279 Well... 54 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:34,679 I-I've told you all the things the law's not going to do for us, 55 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:40,360 but I want you to think about... what brought us together. 56 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:46,679 All those things that we've been fighting for ever since. 57 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:48,200 Compensation. 58 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:51,479 Bigger than that. 59 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:52,879 Justice. 60 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:54,719 Bigger. 61 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:56,360 The truth? 62 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:00,239 Exactly. 63 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:05,559 Yes, compensation. Yes, justice, but... 64 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:08,759 without the truth, we can't do either of those. 65 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:13,559 Going to law will force the Post Office to open their files, 66 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:19,320 so, finally, we'll get to know everything the Post Office knows. 67 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:23,240 The truth. 68 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:26,760 The whole truth. 69 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:29,920 All those in favour? 70 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:33,960 Motion carried. 71 00:04:48,840 --> 00:04:50,839 Yes, it's true that the Post Office 72 00:04:50,840 --> 00:04:53,199 will now have to give us everything they've got, 73 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,279 but it's also true that in fights like this, 74 00:04:56,280 --> 00:04:59,239 the side with more money usually wins. 75 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:03,439 Unless... something extraordinary happens. 76 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:05,599 Our whole case is something extraordinary. 77 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:07,439 Yes. Yes, it is, I couldn't agree more. 78 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:11,559 And what's very striking is how... 79 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,879 many... people... 80 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:18,039 rang that helpline and were told, "You're the only one." 81 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,639 I asked to see if that phrase was in the helpline scripts, 82 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:24,399 and the Post Office said, "There are no scripts." 83 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:26,439 Yeah, and anyone who's run a helpline 84 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:29,479 knows they parrot a script, so it's clearly a lie. 85 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:32,959 So what happened to the principle of "give us everything you've got"? 86 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:34,879 Well, whatever we ask them to disclose, 87 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,919 they either say the record doesn't exist, or it's not relevant, 88 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:39,639 and whatever documents they do provide 89 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:41,880 are often pretty much redacted to death. 90 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:45,599 Yes, I get the sense that none of this 91 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:47,119 is coming as news to Mr Bates. 92 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:50,400 Welcome to my world. 93 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:52,840 The price of everything! 94 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,519 I went looking for a dress, but all I could afford is a scarf. 95 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:59,720 Yeah, love. Love, listen to me. Er... 96 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:04,239 Did your mum tell you that she had a doctor's appointment? 97 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:05,640 No. 98 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:09,079 She... 99 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,040 You'd better go and speak to her. She's inside. 100 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,279 I got a new scarf... for the court hearing. 101 00:06:21,280 --> 00:06:22,640 Do you wanna see? 102 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:28,160 I'm sorry, love. I know you don't need this. 103 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:31,680 Don't need what? 104 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,039 I've got cancer, love. 105 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:38,519 In a place I didn't even know was a place. 106 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:40,000 Pancreas. 107 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:45,360 Does it hurt? 108 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:48,039 Well... 109 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:50,439 Oh, God. 110 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,679 The look on that doctor's face... 111 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,360 It was me offering him the Kleenex. 112 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:00,800 He wouldn't tell me how long I'd got, but, well... 113 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:08,680 Not long. Come on. 114 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:16,879 Don't you worry about me. You've got your case to think about. 115 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,480 Oh, I don't care about any of that! 116 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:25,600 Promise me, on my life, you'll see it through. 117 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:31,919 Promise me, Jo, you won't rest 118 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:37,840 till the world sees the innocent babe I held in my arms! 119 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:41,759 I promise. 120 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:43,600 I promise, Mum. 121 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:53,920 Sorry for your loss, Jo. 122 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:57,240 Five days, we had together. 123 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:03,999 Five more days on this Earth... and my lovely mum was gone. 124 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,239 You really didn't need to come today. 125 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:09,119 No, I made her a promise. 126 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,239 But she's not even buried yet, 127 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:14,399 so don't ask me what just happened in there. 128 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:19,079 Well, there could be five separate trials, but... 129 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:20,959 they're going to make us wait another year 130 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:22,680 before they even start the first one. 131 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:27,959 And you won't get called as a witness, Jo. 132 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:30,720 They won't call anyone who's got a criminal conviction. 133 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,600 Well, I'll still come every day to support you. 134 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:40,960 Bates and Others versus the Post Office. 135 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,599 I'll be "Others". 136 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:46,479 I told our lawyers, I said, 137 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,319 "All right, you can put my name on the tin if you want to, 138 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:51,999 "but that doesn't mean you have to put me in the witness box. 139 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:53,919 "Choose the best people." 140 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:56,119 Alan... 141 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:58,240 you ARE the best people. 142 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:01,759 'So, listen to this. 143 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,319 'Three years ago, Paula Vennells wrote...' 144 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:08,559 Is it possible to access the system remotely or not? 145 00:09:08,560 --> 00:09:11,119 "We are told it is," 146 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:14,680 and Paula then asks her managers, "What is the true answer?" 147 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:18,599 "I need to say, 'No, it is not possible 148 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,639 "'and that we are sure of this because of X, X, X.' 149 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:23,919 "I need the facts." 150 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:25,239 Wow, OK. 151 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,159 That is an email of Paula's that arrived this morning 152 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:31,119 in a disclosure bundle, and it wasn't even redacted. 153 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:32,879 Well, this is... this is fundamental. 154 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,199 If we can prove they have remote access to your computers, 155 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:37,879 then, I mean, that means all the criminal convictions are unsafe. 156 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,239 Look forward to hearing you ask her about that in court, Patrick. 157 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,239 Unfortunately, the Post Office also sent across 158 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,319 their final list of witnesses this morning, and... 159 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:49,679 Paula Vennells is not on it. 160 00:09:49,680 --> 00:09:52,719 Ha! Brilliant! 161 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:57,679 What? What's she worried about? That is a very strange decision. 162 00:09:57,680 --> 00:09:59,479 Who are they putting up instead? 163 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:01,999 Er, the Peoples Services Director... 164 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:03,559 Angela van den Bogerd, yes. 165 00:10:03,560 --> 00:10:05,479 She's had more job titles than hot dinners. 166 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:07,479 She's like a stick of Blackpool rock 167 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:09,719 with "Post Office" written all the way through. 168 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:11,839 And she's a hard-faced cow. 169 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:14,399 Excellent. Tell us how you really feel about her! 170 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,799 - Ha! Well, who am I? - No, no, Alan. Wait, wait, wait. 171 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:19,559 There is a possibility that Patrick 172 00:10:19,560 --> 00:10:22,799 can still question Angela on remote access. 173 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:27,319 Er, where is it? This is from Angela's witness statement. 174 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:31,079 "Sub-postmasters are solely responsible 175 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:32,439 "for their branch accounts. 176 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:36,079 "There is no transaction that enters their accounts 177 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:37,800 "without their consent." 178 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:40,440 Well, that's just not true. 179 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:43,640 And we know a man who can prove it. 180 00:10:44,680 --> 00:10:46,600 What, you've got a whistleblower? 181 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:51,679 You'd be right inside, looking at some postmaster's screen. 182 00:10:51,680 --> 00:10:54,359 You could tell if he was busy, you could see him selling his stamps. 183 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:56,759 - Remote access? - Sometimes. 184 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:58,040 Not often. 185 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:01,839 We'd go in using the postmaster's ID, 186 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:04,720 find the cause of his problems, fix it, come back out. 187 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:07,439 He'd never even know. 188 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:12,399 What, so, it would look like... like he'd made the changes himself? 189 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:14,319 Yeah. 190 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:16,399 Richard, what if you couldn't fix it? 191 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,160 What if you... couldn't find a cause? 192 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:26,960 I don't know. The postmaster took the blame? 193 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:30,760 I can't remember much detail. 194 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:34,399 And like I said to Alan, I'm not prepared to go to court 195 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:36,399 or stick my neck out in any way whatsoever. 196 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,359 Sure, sure. 197 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:44,279 No, no, it's not just that Richard is too shy to give evidence. 198 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:48,519 He's got no evidence to give, no documents, no email. 199 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:51,479 - Alternatives? - No, we really need him. 200 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:55,039 He's still the only Fujitsu insider to ever come forward. 201 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:57,800 - I meant ties. - Oh. Er... 202 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:01,000 Oh, maroon or maroon. Hm? 203 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,119 Oh, I'm not even gonna ask. 204 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:10,639 One thing I took from the Select Committee 205 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:12,679 is it really helps to use your face. 206 00:12:12,680 --> 00:12:16,760 You know, confused, sceptical, amused. 207 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:20,559 And that's your masterplan for the group litigation, 208 00:12:20,560 --> 00:12:21,960 make faces at the Post Office? 209 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:29,679 555 sub-postmasters in our group, 210 00:12:29,680 --> 00:12:31,960 and I have to go on first. 211 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:39,519 I do solemnly and sincerely and truly declare and affirm 212 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:43,199 that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth, 213 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,200 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. 214 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,200 Good morning, Mr Bates. 215 00:13:01,680 --> 00:13:05,519 Mr Bates, would it be right to say that in terms of due diligence, 216 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:07,879 you are quite a careful man? 217 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,080 Is that fair? You're a details man. 218 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:13,679 Yes. 219 00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:15,519 At paragraph 15 of your witness statement, 220 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,039 you refer to being sent an information sheet. 221 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:23,039 "The subpostmaster is personally responsible 222 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:29,160 "for all losses or gains incurred to Post Office cash or stock." 223 00:13:30,560 --> 00:13:32,959 You were aware you would be responsible for that loss, 224 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:34,799 however large it was. 225 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:38,719 At the time we took over the post office, 226 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,719 losses weren't a major concern. 227 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:47,879 The original deficit of £1,182... 228 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:49,439 that is a staff error, isn't it? 229 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:50,720 No. 230 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:54,039 No, that was, er... 231 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,999 that was definitely Horizon, from my point of view. 232 00:13:58,000 --> 00:13:59,279 Without a shadow of a doubt. 233 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:01,719 You've got it in your mind it was Horizon, 234 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:03,559 and forevermore, it has been Horizon. 235 00:14:03,560 --> 00:14:05,839 - No. - Well, it jumped out. 236 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,279 The errors jumped out. 237 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:10,519 They couldn't have been anything else. 238 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:14,199 I put to you generally that the overwhelming likelihood 239 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,799 is that these deficits were most likely caused by error 240 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:23,720 or wrongdoing in your branch by you or your staff. 241 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:26,960 That is the Post Office case. 242 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,159 Mr Bates, that is being put to you 243 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:37,039 so that you can tell me what the answer is. 244 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:38,520 No, My Lord. 245 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:41,880 No. 246 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:47,600 No further questions. Thank you. 247 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,879 Thank you, Mr Bates. You are excused. 248 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,319 "A details man". Might use that at home. 249 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:59,440 - Alan did OK, I think. - Just so glad he went first. 250 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:02,079 You're gonna be brilliant. 251 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,839 I took over Barking Post Office when my husband died 252 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,079 on August 3rd, 1999. 253 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:11,679 - So some 19-odd years ago. - Mm. 254 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:14,599 It's fair to say your memory of the details 255 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:16,759 is probably pretty vague. 256 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:19,759 - Is that fair? - No, I don't think so. 257 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:21,759 Not particularly stunning events, are they, 258 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,120 like a car crash or something - is that fair? 259 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:31,799 If you are talking about August 1999, 260 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:36,279 then, yes, they are very similar to a car crash. 261 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:40,279 You are talking about your husband's death? 262 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:41,760 Yes. 263 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:45,280 Yes, I... I accept that. 264 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:50,999 Moving, then, forward to your suspension 265 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:55,239 following the £18,000-odd deficit found on the audit. 266 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,239 Well, I was staggered that I was suspended. 267 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:00,439 Absolutely staggered. 268 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,880 I was probably as angry and upset as I have ever been in my life. 269 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:10,079 Because, for the last six months, I had been asking Post Office 270 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,159 to help me find the source for these alleged shortfalls 271 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:15,319 in order that I could... 272 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:17,279 How can I put it? 273 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:19,599 ..that it would stop me from bombarding them 274 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:21,079 with phone calls, letters. 275 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:22,599 A lot of people might think, 276 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,119 "Well, I've received this letter. Let's look at my contract." 277 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:30,039 Let's look at section 19, paragraph four, 278 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:31,999 and see whether they are entitled to. 279 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:33,879 Well, I couldn't do that. 280 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:35,719 I had no entry to my post office 281 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:37,999 from the day they did the closing audit. 282 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,159 They took the keys away and locked them up. 283 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,319 But my point is, you immediately blame it on Horizon 284 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,799 without really casting your mind as to other possibilities. 285 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:46,280 I dispute that completely. 286 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,799 I never used to be an angry person. 287 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:00,599 - And it really works, doesn't it? - I wouldn't know, I don't get angry. 288 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:02,639 Oh, well, I should give it a go, Alan. 289 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:05,000 Otherwise, the stress of all this might end up killing you. 290 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,679 Well, the Post Office chose three witnesses, 291 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:10,320 and we chose three witnesses. 292 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:16,199 The Post Office has read 555 postmaster statements. 293 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:17,519 Why they chose me? 294 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:19,319 So, they chose Mohammad Sabir 295 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:21,799 because he has an accountancy qualification. 296 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:25,400 So just watch them try to make him look stupid as well as dishonest. 297 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:28,279 Do you accept from me 298 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,479 that being involved over a period of years 299 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:33,679 as an assistant accountant 300 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,800 means that I can consider you as not commercially naive? 301 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:43,999 I did not understand your question, please. 302 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:45,640 Rephrase it, Mr Wentworth. 303 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,399 As at the time you applied to Post Office, yes, 304 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,360 you were not commercially naive? 305 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,279 My Lord, English is not my first language. 306 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,439 You had experience of commercial things. 307 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:01,680 You weren't... 308 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:05,719 It's put me on the spot, trying to rephrase this. 309 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:07,599 At that time, 310 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:11,599 I was just thinking to buy the business, run it, 311 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,359 make my life better and serve the community. 312 00:18:14,360 --> 00:18:15,999 This was my main ambition. 313 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,079 So if I am clear, honest, 314 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,679 so I don't be afraid of signing any contract with anybody, 315 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,279 assuming that they are doing everything for goodness of me. 316 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:27,279 And I had already positive thinking about this. 317 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:29,159 OK, I think you would agree 318 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:34,479 that a deficit of £4,878 is a serious matter. 319 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,199 - Do you agree with that? - No, I didn't agree. 320 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,279 I told them everything, what was the problem. 321 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,999 Have you read all the documents which I submitted? 322 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,039 I rang the Post Office helpline. 323 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:48,759 "Please, can somebody ring me 324 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:50,999 "or come to my office and resolve this problem?" 325 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:52,759 But they said, "We don't believe you. 326 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:54,439 "We have to suspend you." 327 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:56,439 I never thought that I will lose everything 328 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:58,680 when I will be working in the post office. 329 00:19:03,360 --> 00:19:06,159 We are supposed to be the most civilised country. 330 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,879 We don't expect anyone to behave like the Post Office does. 331 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:10,079 Why they do this? 332 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:13,159 Well, that's the million-dollar question. 333 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:16,799 The QC was very clever. Pick, pick, picking away at stuff. 334 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:18,919 You did everything right, Mohammad. 335 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,199 You told the truth, and that's all that matters. 336 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:22,959 Truth is truth. 337 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,800 - Truth is truth. - Can't hide it. 338 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:34,519 Well, that was brilliant. They chose him, and he smashed them. 339 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:38,439 Just a... pile of ash where the Post Office used to be. 340 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:40,719 Well, we've got Angela van den Bogerd 341 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:42,439 - in the witness box tomorrow. - Yep. 342 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,039 - You get to ask the questions. - I do. 343 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:47,479 And I've got plenty. 344 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,280 We get to see if we picked the right man for the job. 345 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:56,479 Miss Van den Bogerd, 346 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,159 if we could please look at document G43/1. 347 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,359 So, this is co-authored by you. 348 00:20:02,360 --> 00:20:06,519 "Horizon Help has, since its introduction over a decade ago, 349 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,799 "fallen short of delivering the functionality that was promised 350 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:11,799 "as part of Horizon roll-out 351 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:15,440 "and that postmasters and their assistants desperately need." 352 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:18,599 Yes. 353 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,039 That is an honest and candid internal recognition 354 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:22,399 of the situation, isn't it? 355 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,760 There were shortcomings in the user experience. 356 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,559 It's... 357 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,080 It's clunky, would be the word I would use. 358 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,679 - Clunky? - Mm-hm. 359 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:38,720 Right. So why don't you mention this in your witness statement? 360 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:47,680 I don't... 361 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:54,999 I suppose the length of my witness statement, erm... 362 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,919 it's so long anyway that... 363 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,879 Was it your understanding that there was a restriction 364 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,159 on the length of your witness statement? 365 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,679 The witness statement in itself is quite lengthy anyway, 366 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:10,680 and so... I suppose it was just myself. 367 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:13,599 Mr Green. 368 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:18,480 If we could go, please, to document G38/2. 369 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:23,359 It says, "January 30, 2015. 370 00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:25,479 "Mrs Vennells asks, 371 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,599 "'Is it possible to access the system remotely?' 372 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:30,799 "I need to say no, it is not possible, 373 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:32,560 "and that we are sure of this." 374 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:35,839 So in 2015, it would be wrong to say, wouldn't it, 375 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:39,400 that Post Office couldn't remotely access Horizon data? 376 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,479 Post Office can't. 377 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:47,760 Could you do it through Fujitsu? 378 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,120 Through Fujitsu... 379 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:03,000 ..yes, I can. 380 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:07,719 Yes. 381 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,039 You're going to have to keep your voice up, I'm afraid. 382 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,599 I'm sorry. Sorry. 383 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,679 I suggest you are hesitant to accept 384 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:16,919 anything that is damaging to Post Office. 385 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:18,439 That is not the case. 386 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,840 Do you feel pressure to protect the Post Office brand now? 387 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:24,479 At this particular moment? 388 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:26,599 - Yes. - No. 389 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,519 Can I just ask one simple question? 390 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:32,679 What exactly does "protecting a brand" mean? 391 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:36,640 It-It... It just means that, erm... 392 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:42,479 One, it is making sure that how we do things, 393 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,880 how we behave, how we interact with people. 394 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:48,480 And it's... 395 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,439 It's just making sure that, at all times, 396 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:54,840 we are maintaining that. 397 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,120 Made it past midnight. That's pretty good for me. 398 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:18,239 All the meetings with MPs, letters to the minister. 399 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,759 More ministers than you can shake a stick at. 400 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,359 Years and years. 401 00:23:24,360 --> 00:23:26,960 Still, nobody in power hears a word we say. 402 00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:30,840 What's brought this on? 403 00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:34,879 - New Year's Honours list. - God's sake. 404 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,479 Come on, turn it off, details man. Come to bed. 405 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,640 - Paula Vennells has got the CBE. - Joking... 406 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,800 Services to the Post Office. 407 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:52,040 Always another trick up their sleeves. 408 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:56,560 I'll see you up there. 409 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,879 The Post Office now admits they do have remote access, 410 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,639 but they insist it could never happen without the knowledge 411 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,559 and permission of the sub-postmaster. 412 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,879 Well, they're wrong. Of course they are. 413 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,319 But it's 15 years ago. More. 414 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:18,560 I... can't remember the details. 415 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,400 I can't help you, Alan. There must be someone else. 416 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:28,559 It's not that bad, honestly. 417 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,799 There'll be loads of other witnesses. 418 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:37,039 I wasn't senior, Alan. Not at all. 419 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,239 And my girlfriend really doesn't want me drawing attention to myself. 420 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:44,640 You just have to talk to the judge. Ignore everyone else. 421 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,759 You can really help us out here, Richard, 422 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,280 and still be home for your tea. 423 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:58,280 I'll only disappoint you. 424 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,200 You'll be fine. 425 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:07,999 'Jo?' 426 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:09,399 Bob, what are you doing here? 427 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:11,679 Oh, I wouldn't miss this for the world. 428 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:16,159 Fujitsu technical support giving evidence under oath. 429 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:20,399 The guy's quite shy. Alan's worried about him. 430 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,119 A real-life whistleblower. 431 00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:24,519 - It's gonna be dynamite, kid. - Mm. 432 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:26,439 Mr Roll... 433 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,199 Would you accept that your recollection of your time 434 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,840 at Fujitsu is hazy? 435 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:35,560 It is quite hazy. 436 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,440 It could just be my perception of events from, er... 437 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,479 ..15, 17 years ago. 438 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,199 So you're not saying that you were 439 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,799 routinely encountering coding issues, are you? 440 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:50,839 Bugs? No, no. 441 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,959 You don't recall ever having encountered a bug 442 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,719 that definitely caused a financial impact? 443 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:01,239 I don't... recall discovering one, no. 444 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:05,599 I'm going to move on to remote access now, Mr Roll. 445 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,079 My suggestion to you will be that you never 446 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:12,399 and would never manually change a transaction line of data 447 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,719 that a postmaster had keyed in. 448 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:19,399 No, that is something we did, as far as I remember it. 449 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,359 But ultimately, the sub-postmaster would be able to see 450 00:26:22,360 --> 00:26:25,199 what Fujitsu had done, is that true? 451 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:30,479 Again, my understanding is that in certain circumstances, 452 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,519 the data would be indis... erm... 453 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:35,399 Indistinguishable? 454 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,679 - Yes. - Is that what you're trying to say? 455 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:39,519 Yes, my Lord. 456 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:41,399 You couldn't tell the difference. 457 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,440 No, you... you couldn't tell the difference. 458 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:56,279 Remote access to the Horizon system at branch level was extensive. 459 00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:00,999 We had the ability to change data and change transaction information, 460 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,919 even while the postmaster was working. 461 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:05,999 Without the postmaster being aware? 462 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,399 Yes, that is my understanding. 463 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,199 Your understanding? 464 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:12,600 No. 465 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:15,400 My recollection. 466 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,119 'Thought he was great in the end.' 467 00:27:22,120 --> 00:27:23,880 I wonder if it's enough. 468 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:31,639 I asked you a question, Bob, years ago, when we first met. 469 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,480 "Bob, where did all the money go?" 470 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,879 £36,000, they took off me. 471 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:41,959 Now, I think - 472 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:46,279 I can't prove it, Jo, not yet, but I will - 473 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:50,959 that the money you gave them that they claimed you owed them... 474 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,639 hung around in some sort of suspense account for a while 475 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,239 while they failed to investigate. 476 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,640 And after a couple of years, your money, everyone's money... 477 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:05,560 ..it just showed up in their profits. 478 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,879 My £36,000 that I didn't steal, 479 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,799 that they actually stole off me to pay off a debt 480 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:15,280 that never existed... 481 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,560 ..is in the Post Office profits. 482 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,319 I just... 483 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:29,359 I mean, are they just incompetent, Alan, or just evil? 484 00:28:29,360 --> 00:28:35,479 Er, well, you know, comes to the same thing in the end. 485 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,239 - Another one? - Please. 486 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:38,760 Definitely. 487 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,519 The Post Office describes itself on its own website 488 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,519 as "the nation's most trusted brand". 489 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:53,959 Well, as far as these claimants are concerned, 490 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,959 this might be thought to be wholly wishful thinking. 491 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,559 The Post Office witnesses give me the impression 492 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:03,599 that they simply cannot allow themselves 493 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,839 to consider the possibility that the Post Office may be wrong, 494 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:12,519 as the consequences of doing so are too significant to contemplate. 495 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:17,519 Angela van den Bogerd did not always give me frank evidence. 496 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,479 She sought to mislead me. 497 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,119 Her judgment also seemed to be uniquely exercised 498 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,679 to paint the Post Office in the most favourable light possible, 499 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,319 regardless of the facts. 500 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:34,279 Mr Bates seemed to me to offer his evidence honestly and... 501 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:39,319 "..has proved himself to be unreasonable, stubborn 502 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,919 "and a considerable irritant to the Post Office." 503 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:44,399 He's got you to a T. 504 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:45,759 Yeah, yeah. 505 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:47,479 And the Post Office, too. 506 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,679 Er, "Oppressive, unfair, excessive secrecy" 507 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,400 and, well, 180,000 other words just the same. 508 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,359 Sorry, we've got to get back into court now. 509 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,919 - Why? - Something's come up. 510 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,239 Hold on, love. 511 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,159 'I just saw this five minutes ago.' 512 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,559 It's an application for me to recuse myself 513 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,199 as being the managing judge in these proceedings. 514 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,159 Mr Wentworth, would you care to elaborate? 515 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,439 Post Office asked the judge to sack himself 516 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,439 on the grounds that he's clearly biased against the Post Office. 517 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:24,079 Amazing. This is the best day ever. It's like a gift from heaven. 518 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,359 - Proof they're desperate. - Absolutely. 519 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:27,559 I mean, in my world, Alan, 520 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,199 the most, er, catastrophic mistake you can make 521 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,119 is to make unfounded allegations of bias against the judge. 522 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,359 I mean, you just... you... I've never even... 523 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:37,559 They're idiots. 524 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,999 I bet you it wasn't the lawyers who decided to do this. 525 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,159 I bet it came from the Post Office boardroom. 526 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,559 Oh, well, to be a fly on the wall, eh? 527 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:46,999 Well, we're winning. 528 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,319 Well, yes, but... 529 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,920 Oh, I should have known there was a "but" coming over the hill. 530 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,079 Well, the trial stops now. 531 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:01,399 It'll be weeks, well, months of arguments to follow 532 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,119 on whether we need a new judge. 533 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:07,839 And it's a delay the Post Office can afford, but we can't. 534 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,600 That's why they're doing this, to make us run out of money. 535 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,040 Alan... we have run out of money. 536 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:22,959 No. 537 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,279 No, no, we can't stop now. 538 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,560 No-one's talking about stopping. Not at all. 539 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:36,920 But... it is time to start... 540 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,320 ..negotiating a settlement. 541 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:45,279 I think you're forgetting 542 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,599 I've negotiated with this mob before, 543 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:50,679 and people have died. 544 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:52,999 Well, people are still dying. 545 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,079 You know this, all right, but nobody else does. 546 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:59,919 There's millions of people out there who've never heard of us, 547 00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:04,880 who don't know about the suicides and the... the ruined lives. 548 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,999 God knows how many victims who are... 549 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,440 who are still too scared to come forward. 550 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:17,559 Ha! I haven't spent 20 years battling these bastards 551 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,239 to pack up now and give the Post Office license 552 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,039 to start running amok and destroying lives. 553 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,079 Again. 554 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:26,680 Well... 555 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:30,560 Well, I-I've said enough. 556 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:34,959 We have to win. 557 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:38,000 Alan, we just did. 558 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,359 This is what winning looks like. 559 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,119 You're talking as though this is a defeat, 560 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:47,959 and it's... it's really not. 561 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,479 This is just what happens towards the end of any litigation - 562 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,079 we get around the table. 563 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,319 And if we don't and we lose in that arena, 564 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,559 we lose everything we've achieved so far 565 00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:58,279 and the clock sets back to zero. 566 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:04,280 So... it's about knowing when to stop and when to negotiate. 567 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,839 So that's it, give up now. 568 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,320 No, no. We... settle. 569 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:17,680 Same thing. 570 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,679 Mrs Vennells? Paula Vennells? 571 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:39,719 - Yes? - Ned Foster, Daily Mail. 572 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:41,839 Would you like to say anything to the postmasters 573 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:43,679 who've been through such a long legal battle? 574 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:45,759 No. I really find this unacceptable. 575 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,719 - Would you like to apologise to them? - Will you just... go away? 576 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,639 - So, you won't apologise to them? - No, pl... Go away. 577 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:54,599 Well, can I confirm, then, Mrs Vennells, 578 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,199 you're saying you will not apologise to the postmasters 579 00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,159 after everything that they've been through? 580 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:00,799 'After an epic legal battle 581 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:02,919 'during which the Post Office tried and failed 582 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,919 'to remove the judge, the sub-postmasters have won 583 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:07,559 'on almost every count. 584 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:09,999 'Their victory comes with a compensation package 585 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,199 'worth £58 million.' 586 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:16,479 Well... You took them on, and you won. 587 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:21,679 And I cannot overstate enough quite the scale of this achievement. 588 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,239 It is more than we could ever have dreamed of from the beginning. 589 00:34:24,240 --> 00:34:27,359 It is an absolutely astonishing victory. 590 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:29,079 In my professional career, 591 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,080 I have never seen anything quite like this, so... 592 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:40,439 Having... Having said that, 593 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:45,159 I-I do need to make you aware that, erm, inevitably, 594 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:47,999 er, there are legal fees and court costs 595 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:52,199 and our obligations to our funders that will eat into that total. 596 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:53,559 So... 597 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:58,960 The amount that will be left after that to, erm... 598 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,319 ..divide amongst yourselves as compensation 599 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,840 will be in the region of, erm, £12 million. 600 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,999 Wait, 12 million between 555? 601 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:16,319 That... That's, what, 20... 20 grand each? 602 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,119 - On average, yes. - £20,000? 603 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,159 That... That... 604 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,519 That won't touch the sides of what we've lost. 605 00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:25,519 Listen, I understand, but what you must remember 606 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:29,759 is that today's settlement opens a lot of doors 607 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,679 so that people with convictions can now use these judgments 608 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,399 to help with their appeals going forward forever, so... 609 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,359 But what about us? 610 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:44,079 What this also means is that those sub-postmasters 611 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:47,639 who've been too scared to come forward up to now 612 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:49,840 will be able to do so without fear. 613 00:35:54,600 --> 00:36:00,799 Friends... we did talk this over and over again, 614 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,520 and we knew we might not see a penny, but... 615 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,480 ..we decided, we voted to go ahead. 616 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,440 They got paid, right? 617 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,319 Excuse me? Excuse me? 618 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,440 Excuse me! 619 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,999 I've been in court every single day, 620 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:37,079 and I saw us with my own eyes winning the most massive victory. 621 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:42,559 And that's all down to Alan and James and Patrick 622 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:44,239 and their hard work. 623 00:36:44,240 --> 00:36:48,520 So could you just all... stop it? 624 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:02,320 It's never gonna end, is it? 625 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:18,319 I wouldn't mind, but our legal team worked for free a lot of the time, 626 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,759 and none of them, not even the funders, 627 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:22,839 took anything like the fees they were due. 628 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:24,639 Well, anyway, it's not about money, is it? 629 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,399 Well, it is, partly. 630 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:28,759 But mostly... 631 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:30,879 You know what I mean. 632 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:32,720 You won, Alan. 633 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,959 You set out to prove Horizon is faulty, and you did it. 634 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:39,119 You won. 635 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,639 But everyone is still skint. 636 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:43,680 Alan... 637 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,880 - Lee, I want to... - We're not attacking you, Alan. 638 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,720 Everyone can see you did your best. Thank you. 639 00:37:58,000 --> 00:37:59,600 I mean that. 640 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:05,399 Don't listen to the angry people. They're upset. Tired. 641 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,399 I know. It's all right. 642 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,959 Just remember, we'd be nowhere without you, Mr Bates. 643 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,240 You're a... a legend. 644 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:28,919 Huh... 645 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:32,720 There from the beginning... and you never wavered. 646 00:38:33,720 --> 00:38:37,600 Never. Not for all those long years. 647 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,840 Just been a tower of strength and new ideas. 648 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,040 Ooh, am I embarrassing you? 649 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:49,560 Listen, Jo... 650 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,759 All this evidence the litigation has dug up, 651 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,879 all the secrets coming out of the woodwork... 652 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,759 well, we got to the truth. 653 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:05,759 It belongs to us now. Use it. Prove your innocence. 654 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:09,239 Go to the Court of Appeal and show the world 655 00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:12,000 what a miscarriage of justice really looks like. 656 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:15,560 All right, Alan. 657 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,679 But... what are you gonna do? 658 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:31,760 Oh, er... There's a pint of beer in Wales with my name on it. 659 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:46,320 I think people are bitter. 660 00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:51,359 They're angry. And I get it, I do. 661 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,799 I'm bitter. I'm angry. 662 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,439 And I care about the money, of course I do. 663 00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,919 I care about the home we should have had, 664 00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:01,720 the life we could have had, and... 665 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,039 But I care about justice, too. 666 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,119 And you, I care about you, 667 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,399 so don't you dare go blaming yourself. 668 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:11,999 I don't. 669 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:16,279 You have absolutely nothing to blame yourself for. 670 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:18,719 And that's why I don't blame myself. 671 00:40:18,720 --> 00:40:20,800 Come on, let's get home. 672 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:28,679 I suppose I've... I've never seen the point of getting angry, Suzanne. 673 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,160 I-I treat it like a job, you know? 674 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,879 Something I lift off the shelf and then put back after. 675 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,279 Funnily enough, I don't really remember that part, 676 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:40,319 the "putting it back on the shelf" part. 677 00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:43,200 More the "seven days a week, 365 days a year" part. 678 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:48,640 And also, Alan, jobs are things that people are paid to do. 679 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,160 Yeah, something went a bit wrong there. 680 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:57,760 Not actually giving up at all, are you? 681 00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:00,520 Well... 682 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:05,679 ..there's the small matter of every one of the 555 683 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:07,320 getting their money back. 684 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:10,959 And then there's the small matter of the right people 685 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,599 holding up their hands to take the blame. 686 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:14,760 For the Vennells? 687 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,239 The British government. 688 00:41:18,240 --> 00:41:23,079 Why? Well, because the government is the one and only owner 689 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:25,079 of the good ship Post Office, 690 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,359 which doesn't have a penny in its coffers 691 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,999 owing to the fact it's spent it all fighting us. 692 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,639 All of which means that in the end, 693 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,679 Her Majesty's Government is going to have to hold up its hands, 694 00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,479 accept responsibility for this fiasco 695 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:40,639 and pay us the compensation we deserve. 696 00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,759 When people say "the government", they really mean "the taxpayer", 697 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:45,879 but nobody would begrudge you. 698 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,639 We established the truth in a court of law, James, 699 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,799 and now I'm focusing on the 555 700 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:54,359 who need their lives putting back together. 701 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:56,639 You don't give up, do you, you awkward sod? 702 00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:57,999 Well... 703 00:41:58,000 --> 00:41:59,360 Someone's got to be. 704 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,799 Alan, cast your mind back, if you will, 705 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:06,439 to the summer of 2013. 706 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,919 Er, Bob was doing his review. 707 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,119 And you were fighting me every inch of the way. 708 00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:12,599 I was right, though. 709 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:14,959 And at the same time, the Post Office, 710 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,159 in secret and at the highest level, 711 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,919 were commissioning independent legal advice. 712 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:26,039 This lawyer's report establishes beyond doubt 713 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:30,959 that the Post Office lied to and were in contempt of Parliament. 714 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:32,439 You were right. 715 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:34,159 It also proves that all the time 716 00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:37,199 we were wading through treacle trying to investigate, 717 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,039 senior Post Office executives were shredding documents 718 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:42,559 and failing to disclose that they knew 719 00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:44,119 there were unsafe convictions. 720 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:46,119 Did... Did Paula know? 721 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,840 It's not possible to say with any certainty. 722 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:53,959 'I want to say that I'm deeply sorry 723 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,240 'for those sub-postmasters who have suffered. 724 00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:01,600 'I have read many of their stories, and they are harrowing. 725 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:04,480 'They are with me every day. 726 00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:11,399 'I was and remain deeply disturbed by what has come to light. 727 00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,039 'It is contrary to what I believe through my time 728 00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:19,880 'as CEO of Post Office between 2012 and 2019. 729 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:26,359 'I wish to state for the record that I do not accept 730 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:30,400 'any personal criminal misconduct.' 731 00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:46,920 - Morning, Jo. Good luck. - Oh, thank you. 732 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:55,360 This judgment concerns 42 men and women... 733 00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:58,799 ..who were all prosecuted by their employer 734 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,720 and convicted of crimes of dishonesty. 735 00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:08,800 Josephine Hamilton pleaded guilty to 14 counts of false accounting. 736 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:15,400 There was no examination of the data for bugs, errors or defects. 737 00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,319 There was no proof of an actual loss 738 00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:23,640 as opposed to an Horizon-generated shortage. 739 00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:26,959 Even more alarming, 740 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,399 Post Office Limited's own investigator had reported 741 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:32,680 there was no evidence of theft. 742 00:44:34,720 --> 00:44:38,719 We conclude Mrs Hamilton's prosecution was unfair 743 00:44:38,720 --> 00:44:40,480 and an affront to justice. 744 00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:43,560 We allow her appeal. 745 00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:46,720 We quash her convictions. 746 00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:53,400 Notwithstanding his guilty plea, Noel Thomas's conviction is unsafe. 747 00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:56,559 We allow his appeal. 748 00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:00,440 His prosecution was unfair and an affront to justice. 749 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,999 In the case of Susan Rudkin, we allow her appeal. 750 00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,879 Her conviction is unsafe. 751 00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:09,799 Very sadly, three of the applicants - 752 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,879 Julian Wilson, Peter Holmes and Dawn O'Connell - 753 00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,680 have not lived to see the outcome of their appeals. 754 00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:24,399 'Did the Post Office bosses go to prison too?' 755 00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:25,639 'No. No, no. 756 00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:28,639 'I've been to jail. I know what it's like. 757 00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:30,280 'It doesn't do any good. 758 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:34,559 'Hit them in their pockets. Take their money off them. 759 00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:36,839 'It's the only language they'll understand!' 760 00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:40,519 Good lad. On you go. 761 00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:43,279 You should have gone down for these appeals. 762 00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:44,760 It's not about me. 763 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:49,639 Where's Jo? 764 00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:51,199 There she is. 765 00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,679 'Jo? What do you think The Post Office should say?' 766 00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:55,279 'Oh, I dunno. Erm... 767 00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:59,599 'We've waited so long for this day, and some of us didn't make it. 768 00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:01,199 'People have died, you know, 769 00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:03,719 'and all we ever wanted was for the truth to come out 770 00:46:03,720 --> 00:46:05,759 'and for someone to listen.' 771 00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:07,639 It didn't have to be like this. 772 00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,079 All these good people, their lives in ruins. 773 00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:12,680 I mean, look at us. Do we look like criminals? 774 00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:16,399 Bob! 775 00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:18,559 Bob! 776 00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:20,839 Congratulations, Jo. 777 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,279 Not just unfair, but look at this! 778 00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,479 "An affront to justice." That's, like, twice as bad. 779 00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:28,599 No, that's 100 times as bad. 780 00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:30,519 Oh, you were like lambs to the slaughter, 781 00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:32,320 and they were villains and idiots. 782 00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:38,720 Hey, you. 783 00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:44,960 You make me cry, you're a bad man. 784 00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:50,679 'Josephine Hamilton and others versus the Post Office! 785 00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:53,199 'Look, Alan!' 786 00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:55,720 'Look what we did! Look what you did!' 787 00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:05,400 Come on! Yes! Yes! 788 00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:20,879 It's jaw-droppingly significant. 789 00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,079 The judges have not only ruled that Jo and the others 790 00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:25,199 were wrongfully convicted, but even worse - 791 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,239 that the Post Office decision to prosecute them was so wrong 792 00:47:28,240 --> 00:47:31,519 that it amounts to an affront to the conscience of the court. 793 00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:35,319 This has to be the widest miscarriage of justice 794 00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:37,520 in British legal history. 795 00:48:13,720 --> 00:48:15,160 I know what you're thinking. 796 00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,679 Well, it's not over, is it? 797 00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:24,080 Well, how about we... just allow ourselves to enjoy it? 798 00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:28,760 OK. 799 00:48:46,720 --> 00:48:49,959 - Alan? - Er, just one email. 800 00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:52,040 Minister of postal affairs. 801 00:48:53,520 --> 00:49:00,239 Re legal costs for our 555 claimants. 802 00:49:00,240 --> 00:49:07,280 Total now due: £46,843,853. 803 00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:13,199 Plus another month's interest at 8%. 804 00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:14,839 Mounts up. 805 00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:19,000 On what planet is the government going to pay our legal costs? 806 00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:23,839 They'll have to. They own the Post Office. 807 00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:25,360 Sole shareholder. 808 00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:28,599 The only one. 809 00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:31,919 The only one awkward enough to sit at his computer, 810 00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:34,119 making trouble for 20 years. 811 00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:36,200 20 years so far. 812 00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:46,000 Just think of it as a hobby that got out of hand.