1 00:00:06,091 --> 00:00:08,343 [indistinct chatter] 2 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:14,599 MORGAN OLIVIA ROSE: Before, God was a distant, unseen character. 3 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:21,523 Through Christianity, God was made man. 4 00:00:24,067 --> 00:00:27,737 It is no surprise that 2,000 years later, 5 00:00:27,737 --> 00:00:32,284 after years of worshiping monarchs and majesties, 6 00:00:33,410 --> 00:00:38,623 we now worship the celebrity, the American God. 7 00:00:38,623 --> 00:00:42,085 ♪ Take Me Out by Franz Ferdinand playing ♪ 8 00:00:52,387 --> 00:00:54,848 Our fair island of Manhattan has played host 9 00:00:54,848 --> 00:00:57,517 to some glamorous women and their husbands, 10 00:00:58,018 --> 00:01:00,395 titans of American industry, 11 00:01:00,395 --> 00:01:02,981 founders of standard oil, 12 00:01:02,981 --> 00:01:04,983 builders of railroads, 13 00:01:05,442 --> 00:01:09,821 fathers of finance, shipping, and steel. 14 00:01:10,780 --> 00:01:15,952 In the past, these heiresses operated behind a gilded curtain, 15 00:01:15,952 --> 00:01:18,622 but today's socialites transform themselves 16 00:01:18,622 --> 00:01:20,665 into idols to be worshiped, 17 00:01:21,666 --> 00:01:24,252 images to be consumed. 18 00:01:24,836 --> 00:01:27,130 This is American Divinity. 19 00:01:27,297 --> 00:01:29,674 ♪ Take Me Out continues ♪ 20 00:01:37,933 --> 00:01:39,935 ♪ I say, don't you know ♪ 21 00:01:40,227 --> 00:01:42,187 ♪ You say you don't know ♪ 22 00:01:42,187 --> 00:01:43,480 ♪ I say ♪ 23 00:01:45,649 --> 00:01:47,067 ♪ Take me out ♪ 24 00:01:47,067 --> 00:01:49,236 ♪ I say you don't show ♪ 25 00:01:49,236 --> 00:01:51,238 ♪ Don't move, time is slow ♪ 26 00:01:51,613 --> 00:01:53,031 ♪ I say ♪ 27 00:01:54,741 --> 00:01:56,076 ♪ Take me out ♪ 28 00:01:56,076 --> 00:01:57,911 ♪ 29 00:01:58,078 --> 00:02:01,831 Birthright guarantees access to their world. 30 00:02:02,999 --> 00:02:06,836 If you spin the right story, they might let you in the door. 31 00:02:10,507 --> 00:02:11,925 But at what cost? 32 00:02:12,926 --> 00:02:16,596 ♪ 33 00:02:28,942 --> 00:02:31,861 - I think the number one thing that an aspiring socialite has to do 34 00:02:31,861 --> 00:02:33,029 is lose weight. 35 00:02:33,613 --> 00:02:37,867 A girl who can't fit into a sample size is basically no good to a designer. 36 00:02:37,867 --> 00:02:40,245 Hire a publicist, even if it bankrupts your daddy. 37 00:02:40,245 --> 00:02:43,206 He'll make more money next year, but your fame will last forever. 38 00:02:43,206 --> 00:02:44,040 [static] 39 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:46,459 - How to break into New York Society 101. 40 00:02:48,670 --> 00:02:51,214 The very first step is that you need to have money, 41 00:02:51,214 --> 00:02:53,508 and it's a very good thing to give some of that money away 42 00:02:53,508 --> 00:02:54,634 to the right committees. 43 00:02:55,176 --> 00:02:59,014 The history of social aspiration in New York City, in modern times, 44 00:02:59,014 --> 00:03:01,474 can probably be traced back to the 1890s, 45 00:03:01,474 --> 00:03:02,934 the so-called Gilded Age. 46 00:03:02,934 --> 00:03:03,685 [static] 47 00:03:04,644 --> 00:03:05,854 That was a moment when 48 00:03:05,854 --> 00:03:08,607 the great industrial fortunes were being created. 49 00:03:08,607 --> 00:03:11,109 When steel barons and the railroad barons 50 00:03:11,109 --> 00:03:13,361 were some of the richest people in the United States. 51 00:03:13,361 --> 00:03:16,323 Finance was coming into its own as a huge source of wealth. 52 00:03:16,323 --> 00:03:20,744 Names like Carnegies, Mellon, Vanderbilt, Schermerhorn, Astor 53 00:03:20,744 --> 00:03:22,579 were the great families of that time. 54 00:03:22,579 --> 00:03:23,371 [static] 55 00:03:24,456 --> 00:03:28,460 Historically, the American social structure detested publicity 56 00:03:28,460 --> 00:03:30,337 and in order to be of social rank, 57 00:03:30,337 --> 00:03:33,757 you looked down on that kind of vulgar self-aggrandizement. 58 00:03:33,757 --> 00:03:34,883 There's the famous expression 59 00:03:34,883 --> 00:03:37,469 that you should only have your name in the papers three times, 60 00:03:37,469 --> 00:03:39,930 when you're born, when you're married, and when you die. 61 00:03:40,305 --> 00:03:42,891 And it really started to change in the 1990s 62 00:03:42,891 --> 00:03:45,977 when these younger generations of the big families 63 00:03:45,977 --> 00:03:48,230 began to realize that celebrity could be used 64 00:03:48,230 --> 00:03:49,314 for their own advantages. 65 00:03:49,606 --> 00:03:52,150 They were the Miller sisters, they were the Boardman sisters, 66 00:03:52,150 --> 00:03:54,027 and these were relatively well-behaved young women 67 00:03:54,027 --> 00:03:56,196 who led glamorous lives and they went to nightclubs 68 00:03:56,196 --> 00:03:58,740 and were often in the gossip columns or the social pages. 69 00:03:58,740 --> 00:04:02,869 And then like a double bombshell dropped Paris and Nicky Hilton. 70 00:04:02,869 --> 00:04:04,955 [indistinct excited crowd chatter] 71 00:04:09,542 --> 00:04:12,504 When Paris and Nicky arrived on the red carpet scene, 72 00:04:12,504 --> 00:04:14,172 they were an instant sensation. 73 00:04:14,172 --> 00:04:15,674 REPORTER: Paris. - What's up? 74 00:04:16,424 --> 00:04:18,051 BEN WIDDICOMBE: The readers couldn't get enough of them. 75 00:04:18,051 --> 00:04:20,011 The gossip columns wanted to know more. 76 00:04:20,762 --> 00:04:22,931 [indistinct chatter] 77 00:04:22,931 --> 00:04:24,266 They loved talking to reporters. 78 00:04:24,266 --> 00:04:26,601 They made themselves available to photographers. 79 00:04:28,895 --> 00:04:30,522 And that made them stars. 80 00:04:30,772 --> 00:04:33,191 PAPARAZZO: Paris, give us a wave, Paris! 81 00:04:33,191 --> 00:04:34,526 You rock, girl. 82 00:04:34,526 --> 00:04:36,027 PATRICK MCMULLAN: I like to say, I mean, 83 00:04:36,736 --> 00:04:39,906 I'm kidding, but I kind of invented the Hilton sisters. 84 00:04:41,950 --> 00:04:44,995 I would see them and I knew their mother, Kathy, very well 85 00:04:44,995 --> 00:04:47,330 from old days and from being around 86 00:04:47,330 --> 00:04:49,207 and she'd say, "Oh, if you see the girls, be nice to them," 87 00:04:49,207 --> 00:04:50,584 'cause they didn't really know anybody. 88 00:04:50,584 --> 00:04:52,127 They didn't really grow up in New York, 89 00:04:53,253 --> 00:04:55,338 so I taught them how to pose. 90 00:04:55,338 --> 00:04:57,883 PAPARAZZO: Paris, to your left! To your left! 91 00:04:57,883 --> 00:05:01,761 KELLY CUTRONE: I saw Paris have her first visit with André Leon Talley, 92 00:05:01,761 --> 00:05:04,389 and she stood up on a banquette in a blue dress 93 00:05:04,389 --> 00:05:05,515 and she was like-- 94 00:05:05,515 --> 00:05:08,018 I don't even know who trained her, 95 00:05:08,018 --> 00:05:10,645 but she had every fucking frame completely thought out. 96 00:05:10,645 --> 00:05:14,316 And just in that moment, I realized like everything's gonna change. 97 00:05:14,316 --> 00:05:17,319 [crowd cheering] 98 00:05:17,319 --> 00:05:19,863 LOLA OGUNNAIKE: In the day, I used to be in these club streets 99 00:05:19,863 --> 00:05:22,115 and so was Paris Hilton. [laughs] 100 00:05:22,115 --> 00:05:25,535 And so, she was figuring out 101 00:05:25,535 --> 00:05:29,497 how to turn being Paris Hilton into a business. 102 00:05:29,915 --> 00:05:33,335 She wanted to create storylines around her, 103 00:05:33,335 --> 00:05:35,212 so she would have a best friend, 104 00:05:35,212 --> 00:05:36,755 and then she would change the best friend. 105 00:05:36,755 --> 00:05:40,050 She would have a little Chihuahua and then the Chihuahua would disappear. 106 00:05:40,050 --> 00:05:44,930 She was committed to constructing a narrative around her 107 00:05:44,930 --> 00:05:46,765 that would keep people watching. 108 00:05:46,765 --> 00:05:49,392 [indistinct chatter] 109 00:05:49,392 --> 00:05:52,312 All of these girls are Paris Hilton's child, okay? 110 00:05:52,312 --> 00:05:54,231 She laid the blueprint. 111 00:05:54,689 --> 00:05:56,566 BEN: Suddenly, the thing to be 112 00:05:56,566 --> 00:05:59,402 was to be the good-looking daughter of great privilege. 113 00:06:00,153 --> 00:06:03,198 PHOTOGRAPHER 1: Lauren, look [inaudible]. 114 00:06:03,198 --> 00:06:04,783 PHOTOGRAPHER 2: Ivanka! 115 00:06:04,783 --> 00:06:06,576 [indistinct press chatter] 116 00:06:12,624 --> 00:06:14,501 PHOTOGRAPHER 3: Big smile right here, big smile right here. 117 00:06:15,752 --> 00:06:18,255 LOLA: Fabiola Beracasa, she was one. 118 00:06:18,672 --> 00:06:20,382 Baby Olivia Palermo, 119 00:06:20,382 --> 00:06:22,801 she was just coming out of high school back then. 120 00:06:23,843 --> 00:06:26,429 BEN: Another very prominent young woman around this time 121 00:06:26,429 --> 00:06:27,681 was Casey Johnson, 122 00:06:27,681 --> 00:06:30,433 who was an heiress of the Johnson & Johnson fortune. 123 00:06:30,433 --> 00:06:33,395 She was the absolute epitome of a Park Avenue princess 124 00:06:33,395 --> 00:06:35,689 and she was also Paris Hilton's best friend. 125 00:06:35,689 --> 00:06:39,234 PARIS HILTON: I think it's pretty superficial, but at the same time, 126 00:06:39,568 --> 00:06:42,112 our whole group is considered "it girls." 127 00:06:42,112 --> 00:06:44,406 'Cause we're beautiful, cool, and sexy. 128 00:06:44,406 --> 00:06:48,034 - Everybody's an "it girl" if you have self-confidence, right? 129 00:06:48,368 --> 00:06:49,411 Don't you agree? 130 00:06:49,953 --> 00:06:51,329 BEN: These were gorgeous, young women 131 00:06:51,329 --> 00:06:52,539 having the time of their lives. 132 00:06:52,539 --> 00:06:55,542 ♪ The Simple Life theme playing ♪ 133 00:06:56,418 --> 00:06:57,502 PERSON: Isn't that Paris Hilton? 134 00:06:57,961 --> 00:07:01,464 BEN: The culture responded with shows like The Simple Life and The City. 135 00:07:01,464 --> 00:07:02,799 NARRATOR: In this city, 136 00:07:02,799 --> 00:07:05,302 there are the downtown girls, like my friend, Erin, 137 00:07:05,302 --> 00:07:07,888 and then there's the uptown crowd, like Olivia. 138 00:07:07,888 --> 00:07:10,682 She's a socialite or as she likes to say, a social. 139 00:07:10,682 --> 00:07:12,017 - And then you had Gossip Girl. 140 00:07:12,017 --> 00:07:14,978 GOSSIP GIRL: Hey, Upper East Siders, Gossip Girl here. 141 00:07:14,978 --> 00:07:17,647 And I have the biggest news ever. 142 00:07:17,647 --> 00:07:21,276 BEN: Which further glamorized this idea of young, Manhattan privilege 143 00:07:21,276 --> 00:07:23,904 as just the ideal for a young person. 144 00:07:23,904 --> 00:07:26,406 - My God, you'll never believe what's on Gossip Girl. 145 00:07:26,406 --> 00:07:28,950 - Someone saw Serena getting off a train at Grand Central. 146 00:07:28,950 --> 00:07:31,202 - And so, of course, women flocked to the city 147 00:07:31,202 --> 00:07:33,079 and those with means hired publicists, 148 00:07:33,079 --> 00:07:36,333 which is a necessary rung on the social ladder in New York City. 149 00:07:36,333 --> 00:07:40,045 This led to a whole mini-trend of people who wanted to become publicists. 150 00:07:41,087 --> 00:07:43,340 New York Magazine did a very famous cover story 151 00:07:43,340 --> 00:07:44,716 called "Power Girls," 152 00:07:44,716 --> 00:07:46,843 and they were positioned as the most influential 153 00:07:46,843 --> 00:07:49,137 and fun, young women in the city. 154 00:07:49,137 --> 00:07:54,184 - Publicists were at their all-time, most powerful during that era. 155 00:07:54,559 --> 00:07:57,646 The bigger the celebrity you were, the more publicists you had, 156 00:07:57,646 --> 00:08:00,774 and it was this wall that you could not penetrate. 157 00:08:00,774 --> 00:08:03,193 [indistinct chatter] 158 00:08:03,693 --> 00:08:05,946 They could make or break careers. 159 00:08:05,946 --> 00:08:10,784 They could create people out of, like, duct tape and paper clips, 160 00:08:10,784 --> 00:08:14,371 and all of a sudden, you've got a star. 161 00:08:14,704 --> 00:08:16,665 PHOTOGRAPHER: Yeah, this way, Amanda, over here. 162 00:08:17,374 --> 00:08:20,043 [indistinct chatter] 163 00:08:22,921 --> 00:08:26,341 MORGAN: We think we can control how we are seen, 164 00:08:26,341 --> 00:08:29,052 who looks at us, and what stories they tell. 165 00:08:29,886 --> 00:08:31,221 But that's a lie. 166 00:08:33,515 --> 00:08:35,850 Beauty and grace can't be for everyone. 167 00:08:36,309 --> 00:08:38,520 They would lose their meaning. 168 00:08:38,895 --> 00:08:40,981 Some of us have to be the other. 169 00:08:41,314 --> 00:08:43,191 That's our role. 170 00:08:43,191 --> 00:08:45,610 [indistinct shouting] 171 00:08:46,403 --> 00:08:49,531 Money might mean freedom, but only for some, 172 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:52,033 because even though cash is king, 173 00:08:53,076 --> 00:08:55,412 a queen does not control her own destiny. 174 00:08:56,246 --> 00:08:57,163 PAPARAZZO 1: Paris! 175 00:08:57,163 --> 00:08:58,873 - I'm not talking with anybody tonight. 176 00:08:58,873 --> 00:09:02,127 PAPARAZZO 2: We don't wanna talk. We just wanna look at you. 177 00:09:02,127 --> 00:09:03,211 [static] 178 00:09:03,211 --> 00:09:05,338 PAPARAZZO 3: Tinsley! Tinsley, look up. 179 00:09:05,338 --> 00:09:06,923 MORGAN: This is Tinsley. 180 00:09:07,507 --> 00:09:10,218 To her, this is success... 181 00:09:11,136 --> 00:09:12,220 PAPARAZZO 3: Tinsley. 182 00:09:12,220 --> 00:09:14,723 MORGAN: ...becoming an object to consume. 183 00:09:14,723 --> 00:09:16,016 [static] 184 00:09:16,016 --> 00:09:17,475 ♪ 185 00:09:18,059 --> 00:09:21,897 TV HOST: Sophisticated, stylish, and savvy Tinsley Mortimer 186 00:09:21,897 --> 00:09:26,484 is one of the most visible faces on New York's red-carpet social scene. 187 00:09:26,860 --> 00:09:30,030 BEN: When Tinsley Mortimer arrived on the red carpet scene, 188 00:09:30,030 --> 00:09:33,241 she was one of the most photogenic girls at the time 189 00:09:33,241 --> 00:09:34,200 that anyone had ever seen, 190 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:36,244 but some people felt that 191 00:09:36,244 --> 00:09:39,789 she wasn't from the right background, shall we say. 192 00:09:39,789 --> 00:09:43,376 She was from the South. She had a more Southern style. 193 00:09:43,376 --> 00:09:46,755 She had that beautiful, you know, Southern debutante charm and smile, 194 00:09:46,755 --> 00:09:50,133 uh, and I think she put the back up of some of the other girls 195 00:09:50,133 --> 00:09:53,470 who were used to, shall we say, a more Yankee Patrician approach. 196 00:09:59,851 --> 00:10:02,354 TINSLEY MORTIMER: I came to New York to actually go to Columbia University, 197 00:10:02,354 --> 00:10:03,897 and I played tennis for them. 198 00:10:03,897 --> 00:10:06,775 And I had come from Lawrenceville, which is a boarding school in New Jersey, 199 00:10:06,775 --> 00:10:08,693 and I was the captain of the tennis team there. 200 00:10:08,693 --> 00:10:12,364 And we had, you know, tea at four and we had, I think, you know, a chef, 201 00:10:12,364 --> 00:10:15,992 and it was all just very over the top, particularly, being at school. 202 00:10:17,953 --> 00:10:20,997 At the time, New York felt very thriving, 203 00:10:20,997 --> 00:10:26,127 and it was just this whole crazy world of, you know, all these charity events 204 00:10:26,127 --> 00:10:28,421 and these benefits that were over the top. 205 00:10:28,421 --> 00:10:32,175 And I remember seeing these pretty girls and all these photographers swarmed them, 206 00:10:32,175 --> 00:10:33,969 and they were taking pictures and it just looked like, 207 00:10:33,969 --> 00:10:36,054 "Oh, my God, this is just so fun and glamorous." 208 00:10:36,054 --> 00:10:38,557 [indistinct party chatter] 209 00:10:38,557 --> 00:10:40,559 I just remember seeing that and thinking like, 210 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:41,560 "Oh, my God, this is fun. 211 00:10:41,560 --> 00:10:43,353 I wanna be part of this. This looks cool." 212 00:10:45,313 --> 00:10:47,399 R. COURI HAY: All my girls that I worked with, 213 00:10:47,399 --> 00:10:49,568 I'm very proud to have worked with all of them, 214 00:10:49,568 --> 00:10:51,695 all really had "it" already. 215 00:10:51,695 --> 00:10:52,988 When you're called an "it girl," 216 00:10:52,988 --> 00:10:56,116 it means you're hot, you're sexy, you're out, you're about, 217 00:10:56,116 --> 00:10:57,909 and usually means you're available. 218 00:10:57,909 --> 00:11:00,870 When I work with clients, I ask, "What is the goal?" 219 00:11:00,870 --> 00:11:04,332 Because when you're a queenmaker, there has to be a goal. 220 00:11:04,332 --> 00:11:06,918 If you don't have a goal and you pay me enough money, 221 00:11:06,918 --> 00:11:07,961 I'll give you one. 222 00:11:08,837 --> 00:11:10,463 When I met Tinsley Mortimer, 223 00:11:10,463 --> 00:11:12,841 we were at a party, at the Guggenheim Museum, 224 00:11:12,841 --> 00:11:14,968 and I remember she was sitting outside and she said, 225 00:11:14,968 --> 00:11:17,721 "Couri, I just wanna be a little socialite." 226 00:11:17,721 --> 00:11:19,514 - And I, I kinda-- I made this, like, joke to him. 227 00:11:19,514 --> 00:11:21,808 I was like, "I just wanna be a socialite. 228 00:11:21,808 --> 00:11:23,393 "I just wanna, like, I wanna, you know, 229 00:11:23,393 --> 00:11:25,103 "work on all these different events and charities, 230 00:11:25,103 --> 00:11:27,105 "and I just wanna, like, you know, go to these fun parties 231 00:11:27,105 --> 00:11:28,315 and wear glamorous dresses." 232 00:11:28,315 --> 00:11:30,108 And I just sort of-- I said it like that. 233 00:11:30,108 --> 00:11:31,526 - I said, "Okay." 234 00:11:31,526 --> 00:11:32,944 I said, "What are you doing now?" 235 00:11:32,944 --> 00:11:35,822 And she said, "I'm a publicist working for this company." 236 00:11:36,323 --> 00:11:39,200 TINSLEY: After Columbia, I ended up working at Vogue Magazine . 237 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:40,952 After I left Vogue , 238 00:11:40,952 --> 00:11:43,204 I had also worked for a PR company, Harrison & Shriftman. 239 00:11:43,204 --> 00:11:46,082 - I said, "Well, when you quit your job, come see me." 240 00:11:46,082 --> 00:11:50,587 Because I wasn't gonna make a authentic, uh, debutante 241 00:11:50,587 --> 00:11:54,925 into a high-society girl of the moment as a publicist. 242 00:11:54,925 --> 00:11:57,844 It just didn't work; didn't, didn't click. 243 00:11:57,844 --> 00:11:59,221 So, she quit her job. 244 00:11:59,221 --> 00:12:02,265 I put her on-- The first committee was the Museum of Natural History. 245 00:12:02,265 --> 00:12:04,392 - I was able to, uh, have some more time 246 00:12:04,392 --> 00:12:06,645 and really put my efforts into being philanthropic 247 00:12:06,645 --> 00:12:08,063 and working on these different charities, 248 00:12:08,063 --> 00:12:11,358 and that's when it all just sort of came a part of my world 249 00:12:11,358 --> 00:12:13,276 and the whole thing, so. 250 00:12:13,276 --> 00:12:16,738 [indistinct shouting] 251 00:12:18,281 --> 00:12:20,242 COURI: Tinsley already had it. 252 00:12:20,242 --> 00:12:21,493 She was beautiful. 253 00:12:21,493 --> 00:12:25,789 She was brainy, well-born, a real debutante. 254 00:12:25,789 --> 00:12:29,000 Married Topper Mortimer, Standard Oil heir. 255 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:33,505 So, it wasn't that difficult to promote Tinsley as an "it girl" 256 00:12:33,505 --> 00:12:34,965 because she really was an "it girl." 257 00:12:36,841 --> 00:12:39,427 It wasn't about her blue blood, which Tinsley had. 258 00:12:39,844 --> 00:12:43,056 It wasn't about her blonde ringlets, which she had. 259 00:12:43,056 --> 00:12:45,559 It wasn't about her pretty, flirty, party dresses, 260 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:46,851 which she had. 261 00:12:46,851 --> 00:12:49,437 It was how many parties she would go to in a night. 262 00:12:49,646 --> 00:12:50,647 It was that simple. 263 00:12:51,106 --> 00:12:54,526 PHOTOGRAPHER: Yeah, I like that. Good. Very nice. 264 00:12:55,026 --> 00:12:57,070 BEN: There were six parties a night 265 00:12:57,070 --> 00:12:59,239 and there was a red carpet in front of every party. 266 00:12:59,239 --> 00:13:03,243 It's very important that they not be seen in the same dress at, at different events, 267 00:13:03,243 --> 00:13:05,370 even if they're an hour apart, 268 00:13:05,370 --> 00:13:07,914 because the weekly celebrity magazines 269 00:13:07,914 --> 00:13:10,542 would not run two pictures of them in the same dress. 270 00:13:10,542 --> 00:13:14,087 COURI: It's all about being in the right dress at the right time 271 00:13:14,087 --> 00:13:15,297 at the right party 272 00:13:15,297 --> 00:13:17,007 in front of Patrick McMullan. 273 00:13:19,175 --> 00:13:21,219 PATRICK: A big part of that time period 274 00:13:21,761 --> 00:13:25,015 is when people realized the power of image. 275 00:13:25,015 --> 00:13:25,932 It was exciting. 276 00:13:25,932 --> 00:13:28,685 It's exciting to see people looking stylish where you just-- 277 00:13:28,685 --> 00:13:30,353 your eyes, like, go, "Oh, wow." 278 00:13:32,022 --> 00:13:36,568 That power of image can be acquired, but it also can be taught. 279 00:13:36,568 --> 00:13:37,861 You get a stylist 280 00:13:37,861 --> 00:13:39,863 or you get people to help you with how to dress. 281 00:13:39,863 --> 00:13:41,031 It's like anything else. 282 00:13:41,031 --> 00:13:42,574 If you have a garden, you're not gonna just 283 00:13:42,574 --> 00:13:44,200 try to do it all yourself. You get a pro. 284 00:13:44,492 --> 00:13:46,786 COURI: I put her on all the right committees. 285 00:13:46,786 --> 00:13:48,496 She showed up. She took the pictures. 286 00:13:48,788 --> 00:13:52,334 I told her it was more of a silent movie game than anything, 287 00:13:52,334 --> 00:13:54,336 that she really shouldn't talk too much. 288 00:13:54,336 --> 00:13:57,756 And at some point, you know, Tinsley felt her oats. 289 00:13:57,756 --> 00:14:01,551 She was the queen, um, on the cover of The Post twice. 290 00:14:01,551 --> 00:14:05,513 KELLY BRADY: She was the most photographed woman in Manhattan society. 291 00:14:05,513 --> 00:14:07,390 She created a bag line, 292 00:14:07,390 --> 00:14:09,935 then Dior named a lipstick after her. 293 00:14:10,435 --> 00:14:12,020 She was on billboards. 294 00:14:13,396 --> 00:14:16,274 Whenever Tinsley walked into a party, 295 00:14:16,274 --> 00:14:18,652 it was, like, photographers rushing over her. 296 00:14:18,652 --> 00:14:20,737 - Flashes, flashes, flashes, flashes, like, 297 00:14:20,737 --> 00:14:22,948 "Tinsley, Tinsley, Fabiola, Fabiola, Tinsley!" 298 00:14:22,948 --> 00:14:25,200 [indistinct shouting] PHOTOGRAPHER: Fabiola! 299 00:14:25,659 --> 00:14:28,119 BEN: Something else that changed during this era 300 00:14:28,119 --> 00:14:30,205 is that downtown and uptown really merged 301 00:14:30,205 --> 00:14:33,416 in a way that they hadn't so much before in New York society. 302 00:14:33,416 --> 00:14:36,836 So, suddenly, all the socials were coming below 14th Street 303 00:14:36,836 --> 00:14:39,422 to places like Beatrice Inn in the West Village. 304 00:14:39,422 --> 00:14:41,341 They were going to the clubs of the meat packing district, 305 00:14:41,341 --> 00:14:42,676 which had newly opened up. 306 00:14:42,676 --> 00:14:45,220 They were going to Bungalow 8 in far west Chelsea. 307 00:14:45,220 --> 00:14:49,057 ♪ 308 00:14:49,057 --> 00:14:51,393 AMY SACCO: All the socialites came through, 309 00:14:51,393 --> 00:14:54,980 my little fashion plates, my fashionistas, my social gals. 310 00:14:54,980 --> 00:14:58,525 Nicky, Paris, Nicole Richie, Casey, 311 00:14:58,525 --> 00:15:00,860 Tinsley, my favorite. 312 00:15:00,860 --> 00:15:04,739 ♪ 313 00:15:04,739 --> 00:15:07,826 TINSLEY: You hear about the old days of Studio 54 and everything. 314 00:15:07,826 --> 00:15:12,372 Bungalow 8 was that for my generation and my world and stuff. 315 00:15:12,372 --> 00:15:14,791 And that was just the coolest place. 316 00:15:14,791 --> 00:15:18,211 It was small and intimate, and all your friends were there. 317 00:15:18,211 --> 00:15:20,714 AMY: I really believe in the cross-cultural, 318 00:15:20,714 --> 00:15:23,049 trans-generational dynamic. 319 00:15:23,049 --> 00:15:27,304 So, we always had models, moguls, rogues, raconteurs, 320 00:15:27,304 --> 00:15:29,514 reprobates, skateboarders 321 00:15:29,514 --> 00:15:32,601 sitting next to, you know, George Clooney or RuPaul. 322 00:15:33,268 --> 00:15:34,769 [inaudible] 323 00:15:35,937 --> 00:15:38,148 VALENTINE UHOVSKI: Bungalow 8 was huge because, you know, 324 00:15:38,148 --> 00:15:43,069 you would have an, a socialite sat three seats away from famous drag queen 325 00:15:43,069 --> 00:15:44,821 to an emerging designer. 326 00:15:44,821 --> 00:15:47,073 And we were just, you know, college students at the time, 327 00:15:47,073 --> 00:15:49,826 and the drinks were too expensive, so we ordered pizza. 328 00:15:49,826 --> 00:15:52,454 Pizza was more cheaper than the drinks at Bungalow 8. 329 00:15:52,454 --> 00:15:55,373 - We'd be the only people eating at Bungalow 8. 330 00:15:55,373 --> 00:15:58,126 - People were doing blow, and they were hanging out, 331 00:15:58,126 --> 00:15:59,461 and they were makin' the world go round. 332 00:15:59,461 --> 00:16:02,631 And you would see the richest families in the world, 333 00:16:02,631 --> 00:16:06,134 and it would be 12, 1:00 A.M., 2:00 A.M., 4:00 A.M., 334 00:16:06,134 --> 00:16:08,595 and everybody would still be partying. 335 00:16:08,595 --> 00:16:10,597 And I promise you, 336 00:16:10,597 --> 00:16:14,226 deals were done on those dirty coke sex tables. 337 00:16:14,226 --> 00:16:16,519 - Remember you could-- I could be, like, super drunk 338 00:16:16,519 --> 00:16:18,396 and then I was starving, and I'd go out 339 00:16:18,396 --> 00:16:20,774 and go get, like, hotdogs, like, on the street 340 00:16:20,774 --> 00:16:21,733 and then come back in. 341 00:16:21,733 --> 00:16:23,276 And sometimes there were photographers out there 342 00:16:23,276 --> 00:16:25,570 and they would, like, get me, like, getting, like, a hotdog. 343 00:16:27,072 --> 00:16:30,283 You know, we just were doing the things that people before us did too. 344 00:16:30,283 --> 00:16:31,993 But the times had changed a little bit 345 00:16:31,993 --> 00:16:34,913 where things were then popping on the internet the next day. 346 00:16:35,413 --> 00:16:37,374 The term "socialite" was a hard word for me, 347 00:16:37,374 --> 00:16:40,710 because I was actually really busy and really working, 348 00:16:40,710 --> 00:16:42,712 and people thought was more frivolous. 349 00:16:42,712 --> 00:16:44,673 And, like, I'm just, like, lunching. 350 00:16:44,673 --> 00:16:47,133 "She's going to parties, she's dressing up and she's lunching." 351 00:16:47,133 --> 00:16:48,385 It was not that way. 352 00:16:48,385 --> 00:16:50,762 So, having a lot of press written about you, 353 00:16:50,762 --> 00:16:52,847 and of course, when the blog started to come up, 354 00:16:52,847 --> 00:16:55,725 I didn't love that time, it was difficult. 355 00:16:59,521 --> 00:17:03,567 BEN: When the blogging craze took off, it seemed like the wild west of media. 356 00:17:04,025 --> 00:17:05,235 Suddenly, everyday people 357 00:17:05,235 --> 00:17:07,487 were putting their opinions about famous people 358 00:17:07,487 --> 00:17:08,363 on the internet, 359 00:17:08,363 --> 00:17:10,282 which was a big deal at the time. 360 00:17:10,282 --> 00:17:12,867 And I think the secret to many of the blogs' appeal 361 00:17:12,867 --> 00:17:15,453 is that they were really great way to waste time at work. 362 00:17:15,453 --> 00:17:17,581 You could scroll Perez Hilton for a few minutes, 363 00:17:17,581 --> 00:17:20,208 read some salacious celebrity gossip, see some pictures. 364 00:17:20,208 --> 00:17:22,878 Uh, and people who had cultural foresight 365 00:17:22,878 --> 00:17:24,921 understood that actually was incredibly important 366 00:17:24,921 --> 00:17:26,590 and it was what the younger people were reading. 367 00:17:26,590 --> 00:17:29,426 Suddenly, the publicists were less relevant than they were. 368 00:17:29,426 --> 00:17:32,721 And you could get around the traditional tabloid gossip columns 369 00:17:32,721 --> 00:17:35,557 by going directly to these opinion samurai, 370 00:17:35,557 --> 00:17:38,059 who are self-publishing their own thoughts and their own pictures 371 00:17:38,059 --> 00:17:39,352 on their own platforms. 372 00:17:39,352 --> 00:17:43,189 So, it was really a collision of the old guard and the new guard. 373 00:17:43,189 --> 00:17:46,943 A-And now, print legacy media was dominated by the blogs. 374 00:17:46,943 --> 00:17:48,236 Blogs like Gawker. 375 00:17:49,738 --> 00:17:51,698 KELLY: When the blogs started, 376 00:17:51,698 --> 00:17:55,577 they really started covering these Manhattan society girls, 377 00:17:55,577 --> 00:17:57,495 and it could get a little mean. 378 00:17:58,204 --> 00:18:00,081 PERSON 1: Nice job, whoring yourself out 379 00:18:00,081 --> 00:18:02,459 to a full prone magazine, Tinsley Mortimer. 380 00:18:03,043 --> 00:18:06,213 Oh, and speaking of whoring and whoriness, 381 00:18:06,213 --> 00:18:08,757 the fake nails plus lots of big jewelry thing 382 00:18:08,757 --> 00:18:11,051 is a little prostitutional, no? 383 00:18:12,135 --> 00:18:13,887 EMILY GOULD: When I first started working at Gawker, 384 00:18:13,887 --> 00:18:17,140 there were a lot of industries that were just, like, on the verge 385 00:18:17,140 --> 00:18:21,019 of being completely as extinct as the dinosaurs. 386 00:18:21,436 --> 00:18:22,854 And there I was, 387 00:18:22,854 --> 00:18:26,066 and I just thought that I had gotten so lucky. [laughs] 388 00:18:26,066 --> 00:18:31,446 And that I was gonna, you know, speak truth to power in this job. 389 00:18:34,824 --> 00:18:37,661 There was a lot of money in New York right then, 390 00:18:37,661 --> 00:18:42,165 and it was the fashion culture of, like, obvious status symbols, 391 00:18:42,165 --> 00:18:44,709 giant, giant handbags. 392 00:18:44,709 --> 00:18:46,711 You know, you really wanted a bag 393 00:18:46,711 --> 00:18:49,714 that was, like, as big as your entire body. 394 00:18:49,714 --> 00:18:53,301 But, you know, I was not making very much money at Gawker. 395 00:18:53,677 --> 00:18:58,265 As a contrast, Gawker was so grubby, so gritty. 396 00:18:58,265 --> 00:19:00,267 We worked in a storefront office 397 00:19:01,393 --> 00:19:03,228 and people would wander in off the street all the time 398 00:19:03,228 --> 00:19:05,647 because they thought it was a coffee shop. 399 00:19:05,647 --> 00:19:08,775 So, it was definitely the vibe of 400 00:19:08,775 --> 00:19:14,531 we are going to make fun of anyone who is rich and powerful 401 00:19:14,531 --> 00:19:15,490 because we can, 402 00:19:15,490 --> 00:19:16,992 because that's possible. 403 00:19:17,492 --> 00:19:20,036 PERSON 1: Debutard Tinsley Mortimer's handbag line launch 404 00:19:20,036 --> 00:19:23,707 featured a worst-nightmare tableau of lookalike Tinsleys, 405 00:19:23,707 --> 00:19:26,293 who also presumably have to get their hair curled 406 00:19:26,293 --> 00:19:28,295 before leaving the house. 407 00:19:28,295 --> 00:19:31,506 LOLA: Emily was definitely one of the most powerful voices 408 00:19:31,506 --> 00:19:33,842 in New York media at the time, 409 00:19:33,842 --> 00:19:37,512 and you understood that, like, she had the power of the pen. 410 00:19:37,512 --> 00:19:42,559 And that pen could be vicious and scandalous and snarky and mean. 411 00:19:43,935 --> 00:19:46,146 PERSON 1: "Tinsley Mortimer Is Slipping." 412 00:19:46,146 --> 00:19:49,441 Olivia Palermo, your path seems to have cleared. 413 00:19:49,441 --> 00:19:51,693 [indistinct chatter] 414 00:19:51,693 --> 00:19:54,571 BEN: Olivia Palermo was now the really bright spark on the scene 415 00:19:54,571 --> 00:19:55,614 when she emerged. 416 00:19:55,614 --> 00:19:57,282 She was a natural in front of the camera. 417 00:19:57,282 --> 00:19:59,159 Patrick McMullan loves snapping pictures of her. 418 00:19:59,159 --> 00:20:01,912 She had the right connections. She was from Greenwich. 419 00:20:01,912 --> 00:20:03,413 She went to the right schools. 420 00:20:03,413 --> 00:20:07,417 She didn't necessarily come from the level of wealth, 421 00:20:07,417 --> 00:20:09,169 uh, of many of the other socials. 422 00:20:09,169 --> 00:20:12,923 Uh, and I think for that reason, some people were a little bit wary of her, 423 00:20:12,923 --> 00:20:15,759 that maybe she was trying to break her way into some-someplace she didn't belong. 424 00:20:16,259 --> 00:20:20,847 Another blog that was particularly vicious was Socialite Rank. 425 00:20:20,847 --> 00:20:23,558 And Socialite Rank pitted her against Tinsley Mortimer 426 00:20:23,558 --> 00:20:25,560 as kind of a natural nemesis. 427 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,855 Socialite Rank was an anonymously written blog 428 00:20:28,855 --> 00:20:32,484 devoted to who was up and who was down in the socialite world. 429 00:20:32,484 --> 00:20:37,697 They kept a running tally of the 20 women ranked by their prominence. 430 00:20:37,697 --> 00:20:39,699 - When it first came out, 431 00:20:39,699 --> 00:20:42,244 I was ranked number one, 432 00:20:42,244 --> 00:20:46,414 and it was either Lauren Santo Domingo was two, 433 00:20:46,414 --> 00:20:48,041 or Fabiola Beracasa. 434 00:20:48,041 --> 00:20:51,378 Then, I think we happened to be in the Hamptons altogether at that time. 435 00:20:51,378 --> 00:20:53,380 And we just thought it was so funny. We were sort of joking. 436 00:20:53,380 --> 00:20:55,131 I was like, "I'm number one," and be like, "Whatever." 437 00:20:55,131 --> 00:20:56,758 You know, just, like, it's a joke. 438 00:20:56,758 --> 00:21:00,595 But, um-- And we thought it was fun for about half a second 439 00:21:00,595 --> 00:21:03,515 until it just became not fun. 440 00:21:03,515 --> 00:21:07,936 ♪ 441 00:21:07,936 --> 00:21:11,189 BEN: Even when we didn't know who was behind Socialite Rank, 442 00:21:11,189 --> 00:21:13,817 Olga and Valentine were on the scene 443 00:21:13,817 --> 00:21:17,779 and they cultivated a real air of mystery about their relationship. 444 00:21:17,779 --> 00:21:21,575 They never let it be known whether they were brother and sister 445 00:21:21,575 --> 00:21:22,784 or whether they were lovers 446 00:21:22,784 --> 00:21:25,036 and that was part of their mystique. 447 00:21:25,579 --> 00:21:28,873 - I'm Valentine Uhovski. I'm a cultural curator 448 00:21:28,873 --> 00:21:31,960 and I'm one of the co-founders of Socialite Rank. 449 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:33,128 - I'm Olga Rei. 450 00:21:33,128 --> 00:21:39,050 Um, I'm a co-founder of Socialite Rank and... that's it. 451 00:21:40,010 --> 00:21:42,220 [indistinct chatter] 452 00:21:42,888 --> 00:21:47,100 VALENTINE: We both came to New York in mid-'90s from Russia. 453 00:21:47,100 --> 00:21:50,103 While we were still in high school, we started working pretty early. 454 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:52,689 Olga worked in two modeling agencies. 455 00:21:52,689 --> 00:21:54,482 I worked in PR, 456 00:21:54,482 --> 00:21:57,444 so we kind of had a little bit of exposure to the world. 457 00:21:59,237 --> 00:22:01,948 OLGA REI: And also, I interned for Marc Jacobs, 458 00:22:01,948 --> 00:22:05,243 and, you know, through that, I got to attend some of his parties 459 00:22:05,243 --> 00:22:08,163 and his events are just the most beautiful parties 460 00:22:08,163 --> 00:22:09,164 you could attend. 461 00:22:09,164 --> 00:22:12,417 My first makeup experience was with Amanda Lepore 462 00:22:12,417 --> 00:22:14,127 and she did my, my lips. 463 00:22:14,127 --> 00:22:17,714 So, New York was a very special place where you can go and meet Amanda Lepore 464 00:22:17,714 --> 00:22:20,550 and she would give you a makeup tutorial. 465 00:22:21,384 --> 00:22:23,011 [indistinct chatter] 466 00:22:23,511 --> 00:22:27,224 VALENTINE: When we're both 19, we started promoting at a club. 467 00:22:27,807 --> 00:22:32,145 Promoted something like 30 events with everyone from Jenna Jameson 468 00:22:32,145 --> 00:22:34,439 to socialites. 469 00:22:34,439 --> 00:22:37,025 Social Rank was an art project 470 00:22:37,025 --> 00:22:40,111 and when we conceived it, we thought it was a complete joke, 471 00:22:40,111 --> 00:22:43,406 that it was, like, an inside, like, a Pop Art joke. 472 00:22:43,406 --> 00:22:47,202 We were inspired by everyone from Duchamp with his, like, Dada movement, 473 00:22:47,202 --> 00:22:48,036 to, you know-- 474 00:22:48,036 --> 00:22:50,830 - Andy Warhol. I mean, we love Andy Warhol 475 00:22:50,830 --> 00:22:54,417 and just the melting pot of the high and low 476 00:22:54,417 --> 00:22:58,004 and how he would bring drag queens and then socialites together 477 00:22:58,004 --> 00:23:02,842 and create beautiful projects with it that we see in the museums right now. 478 00:23:02,842 --> 00:23:04,844 So, it was always an art project. 479 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,265 VALENTINE: Tinsley, she was at her prime 480 00:23:08,265 --> 00:23:10,642 and, and just kind of, like, this perfect character 481 00:23:10,642 --> 00:23:11,893 that you couldn't even invent. 482 00:23:11,893 --> 00:23:13,645 I mean, she was just this amazing, friendly, 483 00:23:13,645 --> 00:23:15,605 sunny kind of woman 484 00:23:15,605 --> 00:23:19,651 that, um, just became almost like a poster child for the website 485 00:23:19,651 --> 00:23:20,694 when it launched. 486 00:23:20,694 --> 00:23:23,071 [indistinct shouting] 487 00:23:23,071 --> 00:23:26,074 Olivia was, you know, super young. She was younger than us. 488 00:23:26,074 --> 00:23:29,578 She was almost like an anti-Tinsley in some ways, 489 00:23:29,578 --> 00:23:31,037 not just with the hair color. 490 00:23:31,037 --> 00:23:33,123 She was just younger, more emerging, 491 00:23:33,123 --> 00:23:35,750 and she was just like this, you know, beautiful girl 492 00:23:35,750 --> 00:23:38,837 that, like us, appeared out of nowhere, burst into the scene. 493 00:23:39,546 --> 00:23:42,841 And Tinsley, she kind of was old school 494 00:23:42,841 --> 00:23:45,343 and Olivia represented of what was coming. 495 00:23:45,802 --> 00:23:48,847 So, we created a storylines of who the heroes were, 496 00:23:48,847 --> 00:23:50,307 who the villains were, 497 00:23:50,307 --> 00:23:52,517 but it was also, like, a lot of the comment sections 498 00:23:52,517 --> 00:23:55,061 dictated a lot where the storylines went. 499 00:23:55,854 --> 00:23:59,024 - And at that point, it basically grew on its own. 500 00:23:59,024 --> 00:24:00,317 It was a ecosystem, 501 00:24:00,317 --> 00:24:04,988 so it really was its own world where people would just-- 502 00:24:04,988 --> 00:24:06,781 they would have dialogues with each other. 503 00:24:08,116 --> 00:24:10,035 PERSON 2: "Tinsley is washed up!" 504 00:24:10,577 --> 00:24:12,203 "She's so two-thousand late." 505 00:24:12,746 --> 00:24:14,164 PERSON 3: "Is her nose real? 506 00:24:14,164 --> 00:24:16,207 Her hair? Her wealth?" 507 00:24:16,207 --> 00:24:18,293 PERSON 4: "Welcome to the top, bitches! 508 00:24:18,293 --> 00:24:20,378 It's a long way back down." 509 00:24:20,378 --> 00:24:22,923 - People just can sit on their sofa behind their computer 510 00:24:22,923 --> 00:24:25,091 and just make all these comments about you. 511 00:24:25,091 --> 00:24:27,969 Having, you know, to deal with all these negative comments 512 00:24:27,969 --> 00:24:30,972 or just feeling like I was a target or had, like, a bullseye on my back, 513 00:24:30,972 --> 00:24:32,641 it took me down a bit. 514 00:24:33,099 --> 00:24:34,476 It made things different. 515 00:24:34,476 --> 00:24:36,853 It made things look like they were competitive when they weren't, 516 00:24:36,853 --> 00:24:37,812 at least for me. 517 00:24:37,812 --> 00:24:39,064 It made things look more seedy 518 00:24:39,064 --> 00:24:41,733 when it was people were doing good work in these events 519 00:24:41,733 --> 00:24:42,984 and they might be being photographed 520 00:24:42,984 --> 00:24:44,486 and might be, you know, wearing glamorous clothes, 521 00:24:44,486 --> 00:24:47,072 but it just wasn't the world that they were sort of portraying. 522 00:24:47,072 --> 00:24:50,200 I get that they were doing sort of a mockery of it a little bit 523 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,410 and it was sort of fun and people loved it. 524 00:24:52,661 --> 00:24:55,747 Uh, so it's, it's hard 'cause that, to me, 525 00:24:55,747 --> 00:24:58,750 honestly, I don't-- I, I feel like it was-- that was a, 526 00:24:58,750 --> 00:25:00,460 that was a rough moment. 527 00:25:00,460 --> 00:25:02,045 I just think overall it kind of was 528 00:25:02,045 --> 00:25:04,714 a little bit more hurtful to me than, than helpful. 529 00:25:06,341 --> 00:25:09,678 PERSON 5: Socialite Rank posted an email that young socialite 530 00:25:09,678 --> 00:25:12,597 and New School University student, Olivia Palermo, 531 00:25:12,597 --> 00:25:15,058 sent to all her frenemies on Sunday. 532 00:25:15,892 --> 00:25:17,435 - There was a minor scandal 533 00:25:17,435 --> 00:25:19,854 involving Olivia Palermo and Socialite Rank. 534 00:25:20,564 --> 00:25:21,940 They published an email, 535 00:25:21,940 --> 00:25:24,818 which they claimed she had sent to her fellow socials 536 00:25:24,818 --> 00:25:27,612 saying to the other girls on the scene, 537 00:25:27,612 --> 00:25:29,030 "Oh, we've got off on the wrong foot 538 00:25:29,030 --> 00:25:31,449 "and, you know, the-- people are saying mean things about me, 539 00:25:31,449 --> 00:25:33,493 but I'm really not like that. I'm much nicer." 540 00:25:33,493 --> 00:25:36,788 And the way that Socialite Rank positioned this email 541 00:25:36,788 --> 00:25:37,831 when they published it 542 00:25:37,831 --> 00:25:39,833 was that she was sucking up to the other girls 543 00:25:39,833 --> 00:25:42,586 in order to gain a position in their society. 544 00:25:42,586 --> 00:25:44,212 - I think it goes to show 545 00:25:44,212 --> 00:25:47,507 that someone was clearly-- had too much time on their hands, 546 00:25:47,507 --> 00:25:49,134 or I was a little exciting for them, 547 00:25:49,134 --> 00:25:50,719 so I'll take that as a compliment. 548 00:25:50,719 --> 00:25:53,388 But other than that, I was not happy with the fact 549 00:25:53,388 --> 00:25:56,683 that someone was using my name and likeness without my consent. 550 00:25:56,683 --> 00:26:00,437 I think it anything, it was just more, um, the fact 551 00:26:00,437 --> 00:26:02,022 that someone can be so malicious. 552 00:26:02,022 --> 00:26:04,190 ZACKARY DRUCKER: When did you first become aware of it? 553 00:26:04,190 --> 00:26:05,901 - I have-- I had only known about it 554 00:26:05,901 --> 00:26:07,903 because someone had mentioned it twice to me, 555 00:26:07,903 --> 00:26:09,279 but it was not on my radar 556 00:26:09,279 --> 00:26:12,324 'cause it wasn't the content that I was reading at the time. 557 00:26:12,908 --> 00:26:16,077 So, I was aware of it, obviously, when my friends told me that, like, 558 00:26:16,077 --> 00:26:18,663 "Should maybe, like, call your lawyer and check this out." 559 00:26:18,663 --> 00:26:20,540 The internet was a new time. 560 00:26:20,540 --> 00:26:23,668 Laws were not really created for online yet, 561 00:26:23,668 --> 00:26:25,462 so it was kind of a free-for-all, 562 00:26:25,462 --> 00:26:28,340 but, you know, it was important to make sure that it was shut down 563 00:26:28,340 --> 00:26:31,218 and, um, we did that quite quickly. 564 00:26:31,218 --> 00:26:32,135 [slight chuckle] 565 00:26:34,429 --> 00:26:36,806 BEN: Olivia Palermo threatened to sue. 566 00:26:36,806 --> 00:26:39,601 Whether she did or didn't sue, I'm not sure she did, 567 00:26:39,601 --> 00:26:41,144 she certainly rattled her saber 568 00:26:41,144 --> 00:26:42,854 and that was enough to bring the house of cards 569 00:26:42,854 --> 00:26:45,023 that was Socialite Rank crashing down. 570 00:26:45,398 --> 00:26:47,150 VALENTINE: It was bigger than us 571 00:26:47,150 --> 00:26:51,196 because every single one of these women had managers behind them, 572 00:26:51,196 --> 00:26:52,989 publicists, wealthy families, 573 00:26:52,989 --> 00:26:56,409 so we were always had, in a way, incredible power 574 00:26:56,409 --> 00:26:59,829 but we were just young college kids that were way over our league 575 00:26:59,829 --> 00:27:01,581 when it came to the status 576 00:27:01,581 --> 00:27:05,210 and, and, um, and, obviously, wealth of some of the ladies on the list. 577 00:27:07,879 --> 00:27:13,051 ZACKARY: What do you think this whole blogging era says about us as a culture? 578 00:27:13,051 --> 00:27:14,386 - Well, that's America for you. 579 00:27:14,386 --> 00:27:16,846 They ha-- They bring them up and then they bring them down. 580 00:27:16,846 --> 00:27:18,765 I would like them just to, like, can we just stay up 581 00:27:18,765 --> 00:27:20,642 and just, you know, stay happy up? 582 00:27:20,642 --> 00:27:22,269 Why do we always have to tear people down? 583 00:27:22,269 --> 00:27:23,353 Doesn't make sense to me. 584 00:27:25,397 --> 00:27:29,109 BEN: Socialite Rank really set the scene for interest in this kind of world 585 00:27:29,109 --> 00:27:31,278 and when that went away, it left a void. 586 00:27:31,278 --> 00:27:34,531 And so, there was a ready-made audience who wanted to know about these women 587 00:27:34,531 --> 00:27:37,867 and that's when Park Avenue Peerage arrived on the scene. 588 00:27:38,201 --> 00:27:41,621 And Park Avenue Peerage was very different in tone. 589 00:27:41,621 --> 00:27:43,290 Uh, it was much more celebratory of the women, 590 00:27:43,290 --> 00:27:44,708 it was much more respectful 591 00:27:44,708 --> 00:27:48,670 and we were still very much in the era of the snarky blog. 592 00:27:48,670 --> 00:27:49,921 So, it was refreshing at the time 593 00:27:49,921 --> 00:27:53,174 to see someone taking an approach which was not as critical, 594 00:27:53,174 --> 00:27:56,636 uh, and not so interested in pitting the women against each other. 595 00:27:58,346 --> 00:28:01,850 PERSON 6: " I cordially welcome you to Park Avenue Peerage, 596 00:28:01,850 --> 00:28:04,477 "a new website dedicated to the social creatures 597 00:28:04,477 --> 00:28:05,896 "of the here and now. 598 00:28:07,022 --> 00:28:10,984 "We wish the creators of Socialite Rank all the best in their endeavors, 599 00:28:10,984 --> 00:28:13,445 "but their collective judgment is over now. 600 00:28:13,945 --> 00:28:15,947 The crown became ours this morning." 601 00:28:16,990 --> 00:28:18,366 TINSLEY: Park Avenue Peerage appeared 602 00:28:18,366 --> 00:28:21,536 right when Socialite Rank was ending or ended, 603 00:28:21,536 --> 00:28:24,039 and I remember noticing it and thinking, 604 00:28:24,873 --> 00:28:27,542 "Okay, well, this one seems nicer." 605 00:28:27,542 --> 00:28:29,461 There was no rankings and things, 606 00:28:29,461 --> 00:28:32,797 so it wasn't this, like, competition that's being put forth 607 00:28:32,797 --> 00:28:34,424 that never really existed. 608 00:28:34,424 --> 00:28:36,593 Whoever the mysterious people were that were doing it 609 00:28:36,593 --> 00:28:38,511 were very smart and definitely seemed 610 00:28:38,511 --> 00:28:41,556 so knowledgeable about the world of socialites. 611 00:28:41,556 --> 00:28:44,100 And that's also why it was Park Avenue Peerage, you know? 612 00:28:44,100 --> 00:28:46,102 It was just sort of sounded more grand. 613 00:28:48,146 --> 00:28:50,774 PERSON 7: In New York, the guilty party pictures pleasures 614 00:28:50,774 --> 00:28:52,400 offered at Park Avenue Peerage 615 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:56,863 may be the closest thing to a real-life Gossip Girl website in existence, 616 00:28:56,863 --> 00:28:59,115 except way, way nicer. 617 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,160 BEN: Was an instant sensation, 618 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,371 and like Socialite Rank, nobody knew who wrote it 619 00:29:04,371 --> 00:29:06,831 and it really did sound like it was written 620 00:29:06,831 --> 00:29:10,919 by some Gossip Girl -esque anonymous scion of a rich family. 621 00:29:10,919 --> 00:29:13,505 And because Park Avenue Peerage was written by someone 622 00:29:13,505 --> 00:29:17,133 who had a little bit more understanding of what went on in that world, 623 00:29:17,133 --> 00:29:18,843 there was sort of more a possibility 624 00:29:18,843 --> 00:29:21,680 that it might have been written by someone who was inside the scene. 625 00:29:22,013 --> 00:29:26,017 And Park Avenue Peerage seemed to want to emulate them and understand them, 626 00:29:26,017 --> 00:29:29,563 uh, emotionally in a way that Socialite Rank never tried to do. 627 00:29:29,563 --> 00:29:32,107 But the one consistent thing between the two of them 628 00:29:32,107 --> 00:29:35,860 was that Tinsley Mortimer was still the most socially regarded girl. 629 00:29:35,860 --> 00:29:39,739 PERSON 8: Tinsley is fair-skinned with blonde hair that she usually curls. 630 00:29:39,739 --> 00:29:42,742 She often wears shorter skirts and rounded shoes 631 00:29:42,742 --> 00:29:45,245 and her cheeks are rouged. 632 00:29:45,245 --> 00:29:47,664 She is the embodiment of playful youth. 633 00:29:48,665 --> 00:29:51,334 TINSLEY: Because they wrote so much about me, 634 00:29:51,334 --> 00:29:53,962 people thought that I had something to do with it, 635 00:29:53,962 --> 00:29:57,924 but they all found out who it was and it wasn't me. [laughs] 636 00:30:01,428 --> 00:30:04,514 ♪ light music playing ♪ 637 00:30:13,690 --> 00:30:15,358 ADAM HOFF: Working as a photographer, 638 00:30:15,358 --> 00:30:19,321 my first actual assignment was with New York Magazine 639 00:30:19,321 --> 00:30:23,825 and the story in the magazine was basically about the New York society 640 00:30:23,825 --> 00:30:25,869 and a few of these bloggers. 641 00:30:26,828 --> 00:30:30,332 I mean, Park Avenue Peerage was as anonymous as you could be. 642 00:30:32,250 --> 00:30:34,794 All I was told was he was a college student 643 00:30:34,794 --> 00:30:36,671 at University of Illinois 644 00:30:36,671 --> 00:30:40,258 and so, there was a lot of hype and a lot of interest 645 00:30:40,258 --> 00:30:41,593 to find out who this person was. 646 00:30:41,593 --> 00:30:44,137 ♪ 647 00:30:45,764 --> 00:30:47,515 I remember meeting him in person right away. 648 00:30:47,515 --> 00:30:50,143 To my knowledge, this was the first time he had been photographed. 649 00:30:50,143 --> 00:30:53,480 ♪ 650 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,899 He was very easy to be around. He was very easy to talk to. 651 00:30:55,899 --> 00:30:58,235 But at the same time, he was very nervous about it, 652 00:30:58,235 --> 00:31:01,529 and very insecure about how he was gonna be perceived. 653 00:31:01,529 --> 00:31:05,116 I mean, he was a total outsider from what I could tell. 654 00:31:05,700 --> 00:31:08,828 When he was finally revealed to be James Kurisunkal, 655 00:31:08,828 --> 00:31:12,666 it was completely unexpected. 656 00:31:12,666 --> 00:31:14,584 It didn't make any sense. [chuckles] 657 00:31:14,584 --> 00:31:16,670 JAMES KURISUNKAL: Why did I even come out? 658 00:31:16,670 --> 00:31:19,381 The writer of the New York piece, Isaiah Wilner, called me 659 00:31:19,381 --> 00:31:22,133 and we talked for hours off the record. 660 00:31:22,133 --> 00:31:25,554 I am aware that there was intrigue in a mysterious author, 661 00:31:25,554 --> 00:31:27,556 but I just didn't see it. 662 00:31:27,556 --> 00:31:30,934 I think it is much more interesting that I am who I am, 663 00:31:30,934 --> 00:31:34,312 a chronicler of Manhattan society in the Midwest, 664 00:31:34,312 --> 00:31:37,023 who is neither WASP nor heir of industry. 665 00:31:37,482 --> 00:31:40,819 - When James's identity was finally revealed in New York Magazine, 666 00:31:40,819 --> 00:31:41,945 I think it was shocking to people, 667 00:31:41,945 --> 00:31:44,322 uh, because he was in Illinois for one thing. 668 00:31:44,322 --> 00:31:46,950 He was far away from the action, uh, and he was so young. 669 00:31:50,745 --> 00:31:52,414 CAMERA ASSISTANT: Family interview, take one. 670 00:31:52,831 --> 00:31:54,416 JOSEPH KURISUNKAL: Thank you for coming here. 671 00:31:55,083 --> 00:31:56,710 PHILOMENA KURISUNKAL: We had never heard this, 672 00:31:56,710 --> 00:31:59,421 so this is our first experience. 673 00:31:59,754 --> 00:32:02,048 We are norm-- you know, ordinary people. 674 00:32:06,887 --> 00:32:09,055 James born in '89. 675 00:32:09,472 --> 00:32:15,437 He's very caring, simple, and, uh, compassionate. 676 00:32:15,687 --> 00:32:20,483 And, uh, in school, he's a brilliant student. 677 00:32:21,026 --> 00:32:23,695 JOSEPH: He like science project all the time. 678 00:32:23,695 --> 00:32:27,908 He was in the gifted class from the grade school to high school. 679 00:32:27,908 --> 00:32:30,285 Doing homework and, uh, you know. 680 00:32:30,285 --> 00:32:34,289 - He reads a lot, so finally he start writing. 681 00:32:35,081 --> 00:32:38,752 ♪ 682 00:32:38,752 --> 00:32:41,755 JAMES: My favorite movie when I was a child was Clueless. 683 00:32:41,755 --> 00:32:44,257 I literally thought I was Cher Horowitz. 684 00:32:44,257 --> 00:32:49,054 I'm not kidding. My imagination is wild. 685 00:32:49,054 --> 00:32:51,306 Television and film and wedding announcements 686 00:32:51,306 --> 00:32:54,392 and novels, therefore, are much more than moving images 687 00:32:54,392 --> 00:32:56,102 or groupings of text. 688 00:32:56,102 --> 00:32:58,897 My body physically hurts when I'm watching or reading 689 00:32:58,897 --> 00:33:01,107 because I feel so much for the character. 690 00:33:02,025 --> 00:33:05,487 I have the ability to plant myself anywhere. 691 00:33:05,487 --> 00:33:07,405 ZACKARY: Did you know what he was writing? 692 00:33:07,405 --> 00:33:08,281 - He never tell us. 693 00:33:08,281 --> 00:33:12,327 - He, he don't show and, uh, he don't, uh, tell what he's doing. 694 00:33:13,119 --> 00:33:15,205 JAMES: La Lohan is my religion. 695 00:33:16,039 --> 00:33:18,750 I also enjoy Nicky Hilton's casual style. 696 00:33:18,750 --> 00:33:21,836 If I were a girl, I think I'd be Nicky Hilton. 697 00:33:21,836 --> 00:33:24,673 I'd carry the largest, clunkiest bag in daylight 698 00:33:24,673 --> 00:33:27,384 and of course, my clunky sidekick. 699 00:33:27,384 --> 00:33:29,636 ZACKARY: When James was young, did you feel like there was things 700 00:33:29,636 --> 00:33:32,055 that he kept secret or private? 701 00:33:32,639 --> 00:33:34,474 - Most of them are private. 702 00:33:36,351 --> 00:33:38,603 JAMES: I'm so fat and ugly. 703 00:33:38,603 --> 00:33:42,107 I saw my reflection in the mirror and I'm one large, silver mound of fat. 704 00:33:42,857 --> 00:33:44,818 I'm like an ugly boulder. 705 00:33:44,818 --> 00:33:46,987 They're usually majestic, but I am not. 706 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,199 - He never show anything, you know, upset or anything that, 707 00:33:51,199 --> 00:33:53,910 always smiling, talking. 708 00:33:53,910 --> 00:33:55,662 - Maybe he keeping inside something. 709 00:33:55,662 --> 00:33:57,414 - Yeah. He don't-- - We don't know. 710 00:33:57,414 --> 00:34:00,292 You know, if-- He was not very open all the time. 711 00:34:01,042 --> 00:34:05,338 That's, uh, you know, a main part, you know, nobody would know what his, 712 00:34:05,338 --> 00:34:07,299 his feelings are. - Happening with him. 713 00:34:07,299 --> 00:34:10,760 ♪ upbeat music playing ♪ 714 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:12,220 CASEY BLAKELY: When James and I first met, 715 00:34:12,220 --> 00:34:15,307 I was a sophomore and he was a freshman. 716 00:34:15,307 --> 00:34:18,768 It was one of those college towns where there was nothing around 717 00:34:18,768 --> 00:34:20,854 except for the college town. 718 00:34:20,854 --> 00:34:23,064 ♪ 719 00:34:23,064 --> 00:34:27,569 There was a gay bar on campus called Chester Street 720 00:34:27,569 --> 00:34:28,778 or C Street for short, 721 00:34:28,778 --> 00:34:31,406 and we would go there and just, like, dance the night away. 722 00:34:31,406 --> 00:34:33,950 It was such a small-town bar, but in our heads, 723 00:34:33,950 --> 00:34:37,370 might as well have been Babylon from, like, Queer as Folk. 724 00:34:37,370 --> 00:34:39,414 I had just come out, it was my sophomore year. 725 00:34:39,414 --> 00:34:44,461 I was like 19 and I was going through all my girl drama at that time 726 00:34:44,461 --> 00:34:47,631 and coming to him and confiding in him, 727 00:34:47,631 --> 00:34:51,051 and so he and I really did kind of connect. 728 00:34:51,051 --> 00:34:55,680 ♪ 729 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,725 He was a wild child. 730 00:34:58,725 --> 00:35:00,518 He was just unique, 731 00:35:00,518 --> 00:35:03,897 a pure individual, did things his own way 732 00:35:03,897 --> 00:35:06,399 and I just learned to kind of, like, go with it. 733 00:35:06,399 --> 00:35:09,402 Just like, "Okay, that's just James. He just does things his own way." 734 00:35:09,402 --> 00:35:12,656 JAMES: "Homo in the Husks, journal entry. 735 00:35:12,656 --> 00:35:16,034 "I'm at a real college now, like, with fraternities and football 736 00:35:16,034 --> 00:35:17,869 "and English majors. 737 00:35:17,869 --> 00:35:21,539 "I love pumpkin pie ice cream with caramel and whipping topping and graham crackers 738 00:35:21,539 --> 00:35:23,250 "and boys with French surnames. 739 00:35:24,167 --> 00:35:27,087 "Joseph DuBois flirted with me at Coldstone today. 740 00:35:27,087 --> 00:35:30,423 He's sweet and kind-eyed and he laughs." 741 00:35:31,925 --> 00:35:33,260 CASEY: He's an amazing writer. 742 00:35:33,260 --> 00:35:36,638 Like, he's extremely talented, extremely creative, 743 00:35:36,638 --> 00:35:39,307 very witty, very insightful. 744 00:35:39,307 --> 00:35:41,768 He always gave really great, sound advice, 745 00:35:41,768 --> 00:35:45,230 but didn't always make the best decisions when it came to himself. 746 00:35:45,689 --> 00:35:47,148 JAMES: I'm not gorgeous. 747 00:35:47,148 --> 00:35:51,987 I'm not skinny, I'm not attractive, nor am I fashionable one bit. 748 00:35:51,987 --> 00:35:53,655 I smell mostly, and I'm brown. 749 00:35:54,739 --> 00:35:57,033 Who will find my drama endearing? 750 00:35:57,033 --> 00:35:59,995 My laughing, my smile, my eyes, my skin? 751 00:36:00,579 --> 00:36:02,205 Who will love these? 752 00:36:02,914 --> 00:36:04,874 I wish I had someone who understood me. 753 00:36:07,294 --> 00:36:11,381 CASEY: James never verbally said, "I want to be a socialite," 754 00:36:11,381 --> 00:36:13,633 but if I pay closer attention, 755 00:36:13,633 --> 00:36:15,969 I could see he wanted to be in that world. 756 00:36:15,969 --> 00:36:17,721 He wanted to be amongst them, 757 00:36:17,721 --> 00:36:20,181 and Tinsley was like his number one. 758 00:36:21,349 --> 00:36:24,853 JAMES: "Tinsley Mortimer, March 7, 2007. 759 00:36:25,937 --> 00:36:28,189 "Tinsley Mortimer has been the target of the camera 760 00:36:28,189 --> 00:36:31,359 "since she first made her premiere as the demure but beautiful 761 00:36:31,359 --> 00:36:34,988 and fashionable wife of a scion of one of New York's older families." 762 00:36:36,031 --> 00:36:37,991 CASEY: It was clear that it was really important to him 763 00:36:37,991 --> 00:36:39,242 and he really treasured it. 764 00:36:39,242 --> 00:36:41,912 That was, that was his world, uh, he really did admire that-- 765 00:36:41,912 --> 00:36:45,790 I would ask him sometimes, like, "How do you know so much about them?" 766 00:36:45,790 --> 00:36:48,418 And he would, he would laugh and just say, like, 767 00:36:48,418 --> 00:36:50,879 "Casey, you can literally Google the information." 768 00:36:50,879 --> 00:36:53,882 He's like, "It's literally out there for anyone to read about 769 00:36:53,882 --> 00:36:55,300 if they really do the research." 770 00:36:55,300 --> 00:36:57,969 He was the first one to kind of show me Google Analytics 771 00:36:57,969 --> 00:37:00,931 and all the background of who was visiting 772 00:37:00,931 --> 00:37:04,309 and how many more people visited than, like, the week before. 773 00:37:04,309 --> 00:37:07,312 And when it became, like, really popular, 774 00:37:07,312 --> 00:37:09,898 that, for me, it kind of seemed a little bit overnight. 775 00:37:11,775 --> 00:37:14,903 JAMES: "Debut. May 7, 2007. 776 00:37:14,903 --> 00:37:18,573 "It's a simple fact that every glorious debutante of our age 777 00:37:18,573 --> 00:37:21,076 "deserves a proper and befitting coming out, 778 00:37:22,118 --> 00:37:24,579 "and I refuse to give myself anything else. 779 00:37:25,580 --> 00:37:28,500 "Yesterday, I was but an unknown deb. 780 00:37:29,501 --> 00:37:32,921 This morning, I liken myself to a Miller." 781 00:37:33,463 --> 00:37:34,881 CASEY: When the story came out, 782 00:37:34,881 --> 00:37:38,093 where he was offered a job with the New York Magazine 783 00:37:38,093 --> 00:37:42,222 and then I was just so proud of him, like beaming from ear to ear. 784 00:37:42,222 --> 00:37:47,227 That was the ticket for him to be amongst who he wrote about 785 00:37:47,227 --> 00:37:48,436 and knew so much about. 786 00:37:48,979 --> 00:37:51,731 JAMES: "I can't wait to move to New York this summer. 787 00:37:51,731 --> 00:37:53,608 "I'd like to become an executive, 788 00:37:53,608 --> 00:37:56,069 "like a publisher or a studio head. 789 00:37:56,069 --> 00:37:57,737 I wanna be afforded respect." 790 00:37:59,614 --> 00:38:02,742 BEN: When he came to New York, I would see him around at the time 791 00:38:02,742 --> 00:38:04,869 and I had a column called "Gate Crasher." 792 00:38:04,869 --> 00:38:06,705 Well, I guess James was a reader of the column, 793 00:38:06,705 --> 00:38:09,457 and of course, he was fascinated with the world that I was covering. 794 00:38:09,457 --> 00:38:12,127 It started a correspondence, uh, and he was delightful 795 00:38:12,127 --> 00:38:14,045 and he was a little bit starstruck, I think, 796 00:38:14,045 --> 00:38:17,716 about, you know, to be finally there in this fairytale land 797 00:38:17,716 --> 00:38:20,093 that he'd been describing from afar for so long. 798 00:38:20,093 --> 00:38:21,595 [indistinct chatter] 799 00:38:22,220 --> 00:38:26,683 TINSLEY: When James got to New York, he reached out to me 800 00:38:26,683 --> 00:38:29,144 and he was so sweet and such a fan 801 00:38:29,144 --> 00:38:31,354 and he was wanting to meet me and all these things, 802 00:38:31,354 --> 00:38:34,691 and that's-- I-I found out he didn't even live in New York. 803 00:38:34,691 --> 00:38:37,485 It was so crazy and so cute, adorable. 804 00:38:37,485 --> 00:38:39,279 I was like, "How cute is this?" You know? 805 00:38:39,279 --> 00:38:43,033 This fascination with this world and you're not even anywhere near it. 806 00:38:43,825 --> 00:38:45,452 And so, I set up where he was gonna meet me 807 00:38:45,452 --> 00:38:46,995 at one of the Cinema Society events 808 00:38:46,995 --> 00:38:49,623 and we did, and I think [indistinct] was there. 809 00:38:49,623 --> 00:38:53,585 JAMES: "New York Magazine. July 12, 2007. 810 00:38:53,585 --> 00:38:56,504 "Park Avenue Peers: A Blogger Meets Tinsley. 811 00:38:57,797 --> 00:39:00,800 "As I got out of the taxi in front of the Tribeca Grand last night, 812 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,220 "there were already blinding flashes. 813 00:39:03,220 --> 00:39:07,933 "There she was, Tinsley Mortimer in full glory, 814 00:39:07,933 --> 00:39:10,185 "a vision in Dior. 815 00:39:10,185 --> 00:39:14,564 "A summer tan, golden heels and that long, blonde hair. 816 00:39:15,398 --> 00:39:18,109 "Then I walked past the photographers, opened the door, 817 00:39:18,109 --> 00:39:20,028 "and there she was waiting for me. 818 00:39:20,570 --> 00:39:23,156 'We are going to have a great night,' she promised." 819 00:39:23,698 --> 00:39:26,284 CASEY: I remember him telling me about meeting Tinsley, 820 00:39:26,868 --> 00:39:30,872 and he was very excited and very giddy 821 00:39:30,872 --> 00:39:35,835 and, um, I was happy for him as well. Yeah. 822 00:39:35,835 --> 00:39:39,673 ♪ 823 00:39:45,720 --> 00:39:50,016 MORGAN: As a child, I felt unstable in my own skin. 824 00:39:50,892 --> 00:39:52,978 I felt like I couldn't breathe. 825 00:39:54,020 --> 00:39:57,983 ♪ 826 00:40:03,738 --> 00:40:05,240 Now that I'm older, 827 00:40:05,615 --> 00:40:07,867 I see how two different people existed. 828 00:40:09,327 --> 00:40:11,997 One that was James, one that was me. 829 00:40:18,003 --> 00:40:21,381 ♪ 830 00:40:21,381 --> 00:40:25,802 I always feel like "become" is, like, like a strangling word 831 00:40:25,802 --> 00:40:29,347 because it's really to be who one really is. 832 00:40:30,932 --> 00:40:33,935 You know, we might go through some physical changes, 833 00:40:33,935 --> 00:40:36,980 but we're not becoming anyone. 834 00:40:36,980 --> 00:40:40,817 We are being who we always were. 835 00:40:40,817 --> 00:40:45,864 Just took a little bit of time and a little bit of, uh, pain. 836 00:40:50,493 --> 00:40:53,371 My best friend when I was in high school 837 00:40:53,830 --> 00:40:57,000 was like, this like, old-money heiress. 838 00:40:57,375 --> 00:41:01,379 Her great-grandfather was Roswell Mason, 839 00:41:01,379 --> 00:41:04,633 who was, like, the mayor of Chicago during the Great Fire 840 00:41:04,633 --> 00:41:09,054 and he was also the president of the Illinois Central Railroad 841 00:41:09,054 --> 00:41:11,765 and, like, a colleague of Cornelius Vanderbilt. 842 00:41:11,765 --> 00:41:16,019 For instance, like, her uncle's name was like, Huntington Starkweather Mason. 843 00:41:16,019 --> 00:41:17,562 You go to Yale's campus, 844 00:41:17,562 --> 00:41:20,523 there's all these, like, buildings named after their family. 845 00:41:20,523 --> 00:41:23,526 Like, they were very old East Coast money 846 00:41:23,526 --> 00:41:27,822 and I didn't realize, like, there were all these systems in place, 847 00:41:27,822 --> 00:41:29,658 so I was just fascinated by that. 848 00:41:29,658 --> 00:41:33,286 ♪ 849 00:41:34,246 --> 00:41:38,041 And then I was, like, fascinated by her a lot. 850 00:41:38,041 --> 00:41:42,045 Here she was at this school of immigrants 851 00:41:42,045 --> 00:41:45,632 and we kind of, like, found each other. Like, we were like two weirdos. 852 00:41:47,634 --> 00:41:49,344 Jennifer Aniston was in Chicago 853 00:41:49,344 --> 00:41:52,973 filming a movie called The Break-Up with Vince Vaughn. 854 00:41:52,973 --> 00:41:54,808 We were like prodigious readers, 855 00:41:54,808 --> 00:41:57,143 so we were, like, reading, like, Perez Hilton, 856 00:41:57,143 --> 00:42:00,146 Wonkette, Pink is the New Blog. 857 00:42:00,146 --> 00:42:04,276 And so, I sent that as a tip in to Perez Hilton. 858 00:42:04,276 --> 00:42:06,820 I realized with just a word or a phrase, 859 00:42:06,820 --> 00:42:12,325 like, the layer between myself and this glamorous, glittering world 860 00:42:12,325 --> 00:42:13,660 was not separate at all. 861 00:42:13,660 --> 00:42:16,329 With just a word, with just a few phrases. 862 00:42:16,997 --> 00:42:20,041 There was no separation. It was right there. 863 00:42:20,834 --> 00:42:25,171 ZACKARY: I wanna get into talking about New York and what that was like. 864 00:42:25,171 --> 00:42:28,884 - Oh, yeah. Like, they treated me like I was like, the Second Coming of Christ 865 00:42:28,884 --> 00:42:30,552 when I walked into that building. 866 00:42:31,011 --> 00:42:34,055 ♪ angelic music playing ♪ 867 00:42:41,187 --> 00:42:42,939 When I worked at New York Magazine, 868 00:42:42,939 --> 00:42:46,484 everything was done to like, make sure that I was pampered. 869 00:42:46,484 --> 00:42:48,737 All these, like, sorts of prominent people 870 00:42:48,737 --> 00:42:50,614 would come and pay homage. 871 00:42:50,614 --> 00:42:53,408 And it was really surreal, to be quite honest, 872 00:42:53,408 --> 00:42:56,036 to go from, like, Champaign-Urbana 873 00:42:56,036 --> 00:43:00,415 to, like, literally two weeks later, I have my own place in the East Village 874 00:43:00,415 --> 00:43:04,252 and I have a chauffeur taking me here and there 875 00:43:04,252 --> 00:43:10,050 and, you know, lunch with this aristocrat and dinner with this other person. 876 00:43:10,050 --> 00:43:14,012 ♪ 877 00:43:14,012 --> 00:43:17,641 I would go out at night with my colleague at New York Magazine. 878 00:43:17,641 --> 00:43:21,269 We'd go to all these clubs that other people couldn't get into, 879 00:43:21,269 --> 00:43:22,729 like the Beatrice Inn. 880 00:43:22,729 --> 00:43:27,776 That's where we'd run into like, these downtown kind of characters 881 00:43:27,776 --> 00:43:31,029 that were, like, not uptown socialites. 882 00:43:31,029 --> 00:43:32,697 ♪ 883 00:43:32,697 --> 00:43:35,659 The first night I had ever gone out in New York City, 884 00:43:35,659 --> 00:43:37,494 apparently, like, everyone who's anyone 885 00:43:37,494 --> 00:43:39,120 knew that I was going out that night. 886 00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:43,166 I don't know why or how, but I walked into the elevator 887 00:43:43,166 --> 00:43:46,628 and I think it was Anna Wintour, Graydon Carter, 888 00:43:46,628 --> 00:43:50,298 the editor of GQ and then the editor of Radar, 889 00:43:50,298 --> 00:43:52,217 and they were all checking me out. 890 00:43:52,801 --> 00:43:56,555 And I was just a kid, you know, living a little bit of a dream. 891 00:43:58,807 --> 00:44:00,767 TINSLEY: How are you? It's Tins. 892 00:44:01,226 --> 00:44:03,103 - Hey. [echoes] 893 00:44:03,103 --> 00:44:05,021 No, I'm still typing the post. 894 00:44:05,605 --> 00:44:08,525 Tinsley and I became very fast friends. 895 00:44:08,525 --> 00:44:12,404 - Yes, I know the place. We go there all the time. 896 00:44:12,404 --> 00:44:14,864 Oh, my God. 897 00:44:14,864 --> 00:44:16,491 - Hi. 898 00:44:16,491 --> 00:44:18,827 Though we looked like we were from two different worlds, 899 00:44:18,827 --> 00:44:21,204 it was almost like we were from the same world. 900 00:44:21,204 --> 00:44:24,749 Like, it was like I met my twin and she met hers. 901 00:44:24,749 --> 00:44:27,252 - You're special and you're beautiful inside and out, 902 00:44:27,252 --> 00:44:30,130 and it's, it's important just to keep being you 903 00:44:30,130 --> 00:44:32,799 and letting everyone see you. 904 00:44:32,799 --> 00:44:33,675 - Thank you. 905 00:44:33,925 --> 00:44:37,929 She was like a nationally ranked tennis player, like, in high school. 906 00:44:37,929 --> 00:44:41,850 Like, I could relate to her 'cause I was, like, a star writer 907 00:44:41,850 --> 00:44:43,977 when I was, like, barely 17. You know? 908 00:44:43,977 --> 00:44:48,440 So, we understood each other on that weird, teen-prodigy level. 909 00:44:49,357 --> 00:44:52,819 It was almost like this weird sorority. [giggles] 910 00:44:52,819 --> 00:44:55,488 This very secret society that was very public. 911 00:45:03,622 --> 00:45:05,707 - I don't know. I feel like we talked on the phone 912 00:45:05,707 --> 00:45:09,502 like different times and just-- he was just this really sweet boy 913 00:45:09,502 --> 00:45:12,505 that, um, then was coming to New York and really wanted to meet me 914 00:45:12,505 --> 00:45:13,757 and was super excited about it. 915 00:45:13,757 --> 00:45:17,510 And I just, you know, remember-- I mean, I'm sure I did, though-- 916 00:45:17,510 --> 00:45:18,511 although I'm not sure. 917 00:45:18,511 --> 00:45:22,224 Was he, was he even doing any of the parties and coming out? 918 00:45:22,224 --> 00:45:23,266 'Cause he, he didn't-- 919 00:45:23,266 --> 00:45:25,560 Did he move to New York at that point or no? 920 00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:27,604 No. So, he really wasn't around. Yeah. 921 00:45:27,604 --> 00:45:29,231 ZACKARY: I mean, he was 19. - Yeah. 922 00:45:29,231 --> 00:45:32,067 ZACKARY: So, he couldn't have-- - Just like, so cute and young and I know. 923 00:45:32,067 --> 00:45:33,485 Yeah. So, no. 924 00:45:33,485 --> 00:45:36,988 ZACKARY: How does Morgan's narrative differ from reality? 925 00:45:38,281 --> 00:45:40,492 - I mean, you-you've spoken with her. 926 00:45:40,492 --> 00:45:44,329 She lives in her own world and looking back, she always has. 927 00:45:44,621 --> 00:45:45,705 Um, 928 00:45:46,164 --> 00:45:49,417 things that are obvious, things that everyone can see, 929 00:45:49,417 --> 00:45:53,129 it-it's kind of clear that she doesn't always choose to see that. 930 00:45:53,129 --> 00:45:54,464 PHOTOGRAPHER 1: And right to your left. 931 00:45:54,464 --> 00:45:56,049 [indistinct chatter] 932 00:45:56,049 --> 00:45:57,884 PHOTOGRAPHER 2: Over the shoulder! 933 00:45:59,469 --> 00:46:02,055 MORGAN: There's a freedom to being the other, 934 00:46:02,055 --> 00:46:04,641 a freedom to write your own story. 935 00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,061 Why should I live in their reality? 936 00:46:09,062 --> 00:46:13,775 I want my own truth, a truth where I am beauty, 937 00:46:14,276 --> 00:46:16,194 I am love, 938 00:46:16,194 --> 00:46:17,779 I am everything. 939 00:46:19,864 --> 00:46:22,158 [ambient street sounds] 940 00:46:22,158 --> 00:46:24,536 CASEY: I came for a couple days and visited him in New York. 941 00:46:24,536 --> 00:46:28,290 I remember the little apartment that he was in, 942 00:46:28,290 --> 00:46:29,833 in the East Village. 943 00:46:29,833 --> 00:46:31,543 He had a s-- teeny, tiny, little room. 944 00:46:32,168 --> 00:46:36,965 I remember just being with, like, my bestie. 945 00:46:36,965 --> 00:46:39,342 We were too young to really go into any bars 946 00:46:39,342 --> 00:46:40,385 or any clubs like that, 947 00:46:40,385 --> 00:46:43,054 so we were just kind of wandering the streets 948 00:46:43,054 --> 00:46:44,890 and just kind of going to Central Park 949 00:46:44,890 --> 00:46:47,684 and trying to, like, mosey our way into parties 950 00:46:47,684 --> 00:46:50,270 that we just randomly found online. 951 00:46:50,270 --> 00:46:55,817 He found some party to go to and the address was on 1st and 1st. 952 00:46:55,817 --> 00:46:59,279 And so, we just kind of set out on foot trying to find 1st and 1st. 953 00:46:59,279 --> 00:47:02,198 We were-- kept asking each other, like, "Is that even a thing? 954 00:47:02,198 --> 00:47:05,285 Can something really be on 1st and 1st?" And it seemed like forever. 955 00:47:05,285 --> 00:47:06,578 We finally found it, 956 00:47:06,578 --> 00:47:08,914 and then we were, like, looking up at the apartment, 957 00:47:08,914 --> 00:47:10,040 like, "You go first." 958 00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:11,833 And he's like, "No, you go first." "No, you go first." 959 00:47:11,833 --> 00:47:15,128 And sadly to say, we never went inside. 960 00:47:17,339 --> 00:47:20,759 PERSON 9: "James Kurisunkal Is Interning At New York Magazine. " 961 00:47:20,759 --> 00:47:25,096 "James Kurdistan's 'Aw Shucks' Persona Is So Patently False." 962 00:47:25,096 --> 00:47:28,808 "Park Avenue Peerage: A PR-Seeking Socialite's Best Friend." 963 00:47:28,808 --> 00:47:32,938 "James Kurisunkal's Humbly Fabulous Beginnings." 964 00:47:32,938 --> 00:47:35,440 - There were moments when I would be aware 965 00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:40,362 that I was not accepted, like those articles in Gawker. 966 00:47:42,489 --> 00:47:45,200 ZACKARY: Do you remember James Kurisunkal? 967 00:47:45,951 --> 00:47:47,244 - No. 968 00:47:47,244 --> 00:47:49,162 ZACKARY: Can I read you one of the posts? 969 00:47:49,162 --> 00:47:50,872 - Yeah, do it. Do it. 970 00:47:51,456 --> 00:47:52,457 'Kay. 971 00:47:53,375 --> 00:47:56,586 ZACKARY: "James is secretly or not quite secretly enough, 972 00:47:56,586 --> 00:47:58,964 "a total player with a very inflated opinion 973 00:47:58,964 --> 00:48:00,840 "of his own importance. 974 00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:05,637 "Mr. Kurisunkal said that he is delighted in working at New York Magazine, 975 00:48:05,637 --> 00:48:08,431 "which he called 'very horizontal in the way it's run.' 976 00:48:09,057 --> 00:48:12,102 "We wondered how horizontal New York Magazine really is, 977 00:48:12,102 --> 00:48:16,398 "so we asked a staffer there who said, 'Well, it's not Vanity Fair, 978 00:48:16,398 --> 00:48:19,442 "'but I mean he's a fucking fact-checking intern, 979 00:48:19,442 --> 00:48:22,445 which is even lower on the totem pole than regular interns.'" 980 00:48:23,071 --> 00:48:24,739 - I wrote that? 981 00:48:24,739 --> 00:48:25,991 ZACKARY: Yeah, you did. 982 00:48:25,991 --> 00:48:26,908 - Wow. That's-- 983 00:48:26,908 --> 00:48:30,579 I mean, I'm impressed that I talked to a New York Magazine staffer. 984 00:48:30,579 --> 00:48:31,663 [laughs] 985 00:48:34,791 --> 00:48:37,168 It's weird. Even as you read it back to me, 986 00:48:37,168 --> 00:48:39,671 I have zero memory of writing it. 987 00:48:40,255 --> 00:48:43,717 I don't want to let myself off the hook too easily about any of this. 988 00:48:44,217 --> 00:48:49,347 It's true that I was young and a cog in a machine, 989 00:48:49,764 --> 00:48:52,058 but I could've made different choices. 990 00:48:52,058 --> 00:48:53,393 I mean, I had free will. 991 00:48:54,019 --> 00:48:56,396 It was very unclear to me that these were real people 992 00:48:56,396 --> 00:48:57,939 and not like characters in a book. 993 00:48:57,939 --> 00:49:00,400 Like, we made them into characters for the internet, 994 00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:04,321 but, like, there was no sense that I was, like, writing something 995 00:49:04,321 --> 00:49:08,617 that would a-affect someone's actual life. 996 00:49:09,326 --> 00:49:11,202 James was an easy target. 997 00:49:12,203 --> 00:49:17,334 MORGAN: I started feeling so many terrible things about myself 998 00:49:17,334 --> 00:49:21,796 where I would be very aware of the fact that, um, 999 00:49:21,796 --> 00:49:25,634 you know, I came from a background that 1000 00:49:26,426 --> 00:49:27,928 was different than theirs. 1001 00:49:27,928 --> 00:49:31,264 And that was it. Really, that was it, 1002 00:49:31,264 --> 00:49:34,392 that I came from a background that was unfamiliar to them. 1003 00:49:37,604 --> 00:49:40,649 BEN: I think for James it must have been like him being thrown into a shark tank 1004 00:49:40,649 --> 00:49:41,858 to be in the actual world 1005 00:49:41,858 --> 00:49:44,778 because being anonymous is very useful, it protects you. 1006 00:49:44,778 --> 00:49:47,280 And once you have that armor taken away from you 1007 00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:49,449 and you have to swim for yourself, 1008 00:49:49,449 --> 00:49:52,786 I think sometimes you can find that there's no one there to help you. 1009 00:49:52,786 --> 00:49:55,914 He was very young and he didn't really know 1010 00:49:55,914 --> 00:49:59,125 the codes of behavior a-and how to navigate that world. 1011 00:49:59,125 --> 00:50:01,461 And it has to be said. It's a very white world. 1012 00:50:01,461 --> 00:50:04,881 So, you know, as the child of immigrants, he really stood out. 1013 00:50:07,926 --> 00:50:10,637 After New York Magazine, he had this internship, 1014 00:50:10,637 --> 00:50:12,806 which involved him being in the Hamptons. 1015 00:50:13,557 --> 00:50:16,560 CASEY: He was staying with his boss at the time. 1016 00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:21,898 And as we all know, the Hamptons is maybe not the place to be 1017 00:50:21,898 --> 00:50:25,360 if you look anything other than white and wealthy. 1018 00:50:26,820 --> 00:50:30,782 MORGAN: I ended up living with this very racist woman. 1019 00:50:30,782 --> 00:50:35,203 There were all sorts of elements that led this person to not like me. 1020 00:50:35,203 --> 00:50:40,625 It was the brown, it was the gay, it was the male. 1021 00:50:40,625 --> 00:50:45,297 It was the fact that, like, I was where it took her 20 years to get to, 1022 00:50:45,297 --> 00:50:47,507 but I was still, again, a teenager. 1023 00:50:49,968 --> 00:50:53,722 CASEY: According to James, there was some sort of altercation. 1024 00:50:55,307 --> 00:50:59,936 - She was like, "You know why I don't want you around here." 1025 00:50:59,936 --> 00:51:02,105 She's like, "You know what you are." 1026 00:51:03,231 --> 00:51:06,234 And I'm like, "What is that?" And she's like, "You're a fucking--" 1027 00:51:06,234 --> 00:51:11,114 - I do recall that. Yeah, he did tell me that she call him the N-word 1028 00:51:11,114 --> 00:51:14,117 and, uh, he was very hurt by that. 1029 00:51:14,117 --> 00:51:15,577 Very shocked and very hurt by that. 1030 00:51:16,369 --> 00:51:19,039 MORGAN: I always knew I was an outsider. 1031 00:51:19,039 --> 00:51:23,919 But it wasn't until someone like that saying that to my face 1032 00:51:23,919 --> 00:51:29,591 when it all became so apparent that what a dark world that, that is. 1033 00:51:30,759 --> 00:51:35,305 And it's nothing that I want anything to do with. 1034 00:51:35,805 --> 00:51:37,390 CASEY: It was cute from afar, 1035 00:51:37,390 --> 00:51:40,268 you know, him being in the little dorm room at U of I 1036 00:51:40,268 --> 00:51:43,772 and writing about them. That's a cute story. That's a great story. 1037 00:51:43,772 --> 00:51:46,816 But the actual reality of him trying to join them 1038 00:51:46,816 --> 00:51:49,611 and be amongst them and almost be like a peer with them, 1039 00:51:49,611 --> 00:51:52,405 that's not something that would happen, that could possibly happen, 1040 00:51:52,405 --> 00:51:53,615 and it didn't happen. 1041 00:51:53,615 --> 00:51:57,994 Yeah... I would say that's where the fantasy fell apart. 1042 00:52:00,372 --> 00:52:06,336 ZACKARY: Did you know that James had a difficult time emotionally, that summer? 1043 00:52:06,336 --> 00:52:08,046 - Yeah, I remember that. 1044 00:52:08,046 --> 00:52:11,007 You know, he had a-- It was-- Something happened there. 1045 00:52:11,007 --> 00:52:13,426 He said, "I'm coming back to Chicago." I said, "Okay." 1046 00:52:13,426 --> 00:52:14,469 I sent him the ticket. 1047 00:52:14,469 --> 00:52:16,513 - So, he came back. 1048 00:52:16,513 --> 00:52:19,766 - He was a little upset for a few days. Then after that-- 1049 00:52:19,766 --> 00:52:21,643 - "Why are people are like this, Mommy?" 1050 00:52:21,643 --> 00:52:24,479 I said, "You know, there are different kind of people. 1051 00:52:24,479 --> 00:52:27,732 So, in your life you will see lot of thing." 1052 00:52:32,362 --> 00:52:35,907 JAMES: "Park Avenue Peerage, February 5, 2010. 1053 00:52:35,907 --> 00:52:39,452 "My website is soil in which I can sift through with my hands. 1054 00:52:40,579 --> 00:52:43,290 "This is my final post on Park Avenue Peerage. 1055 00:52:44,291 --> 00:52:46,042 "The last three years have been such a ride 1056 00:52:46,042 --> 00:52:48,003 "and I was very happy to entertain. 1057 00:52:48,003 --> 00:52:52,173 "A great deal of people that come to PAP are here for Tinsley Mortimer. 1058 00:52:52,173 --> 00:52:55,051 "Mostly, I'd like to thank my readers. 1059 00:52:55,051 --> 00:52:57,596 "I'm no longer fascinated by this world. 1060 00:52:58,179 --> 00:53:02,183 "I'm not impressed. In fact, I'm depressed. 1061 00:53:02,183 --> 00:53:04,895 God bless, James." 1062 00:53:07,522 --> 00:53:09,149 TINSLEY: My name is Tinsley Mortimer. 1063 00:53:09,149 --> 00:53:12,193 ♪ All the Right Moves by OneRepublic playing ♪ 1064 00:53:12,193 --> 00:53:13,778 People call me a socialite. 1065 00:53:13,778 --> 00:53:15,530 ♪ So, yeah, we're goin' down ♪ 1066 00:53:15,530 --> 00:53:17,991 PAUL JOHNSON CALDERON: It really is a rat race in the New York social world. 1067 00:53:17,991 --> 00:53:19,159 ♪ 1068 00:53:19,159 --> 00:53:23,997 - High Society was definitely not... the show that wa-- it was set out to be. 1069 00:53:24,289 --> 00:53:25,457 But the real story... 1070 00:53:25,457 --> 00:53:29,252 Reality TV was a little too early. People were very judgmental. 1071 00:53:29,252 --> 00:53:30,503 The economic crash, 1072 00:53:30,503 --> 00:53:32,297 it really kind of happened, like, around then 1073 00:53:32,297 --> 00:53:36,426 and people didn't want to see people having some glamorous-y type of life. 1074 00:53:36,426 --> 00:53:38,678 That also wasn't really what the show was supposed to be about. 1075 00:53:38,678 --> 00:53:42,933 It wasn't supposed to look like we are total brats in, like, this world, 1076 00:53:42,933 --> 00:53:47,103 it-- but it kind of elevated that and pushed that as a, as a thing. 1077 00:53:47,103 --> 00:53:49,731 So, it was terrifying. 1078 00:53:49,731 --> 00:53:50,690 We will never be friends now. 1079 00:53:50,899 --> 00:53:53,401 I just pulled back tremendously afterwards. 1080 00:53:53,401 --> 00:53:54,861 I-- It was-- I was burnt out. 1081 00:53:54,861 --> 00:53:58,114 I mean, that, mixed with all the other stuff I had done, 1082 00:53:58,114 --> 00:54:01,117 all that stuff I just thought I just need to take a break, 1083 00:54:01,117 --> 00:54:03,286 um, and I just didn't really do much for a while. 1084 00:54:04,204 --> 00:54:06,539 So, I don't remember communicating with James so much 1085 00:54:06,539 --> 00:54:09,459 while-- I mean, I think even after it was over, 1086 00:54:09,459 --> 00:54:12,462 we still were friends and I was still talking to him. 1087 00:54:13,129 --> 00:54:15,257 And then I just lost touch with him. 1088 00:54:16,466 --> 00:54:19,302 ZACKARY: Why did your friendship with Tinsley end? 1089 00:54:19,302 --> 00:54:21,012 - I don't believe it ended. 1090 00:54:21,471 --> 00:54:23,598 Um, I think it just paused for a little bit. 1091 00:54:23,598 --> 00:54:27,143 She had a television show that she had been working on, 1092 00:54:27,143 --> 00:54:31,940 um, that took a very-- it took her away from a lot of her friends 1093 00:54:32,524 --> 00:54:36,778 and that's why, you know, we didn't really stay in communication. 1094 00:54:37,529 --> 00:54:41,283 In this weird way, like, I was a member of that world 1095 00:54:41,283 --> 00:54:43,368 and she was a dear friend of mine 1096 00:54:43,368 --> 00:54:47,372 and... I felt like I was no longer important. 1097 00:54:48,748 --> 00:54:52,544 And... that was very, like, hurtful 1098 00:54:53,628 --> 00:54:55,297 because, like, 1099 00:54:56,882 --> 00:54:58,300 it wasn't that I looked up to her, 1100 00:54:58,300 --> 00:55:01,678 it was just that, like, she depended so much on me 1101 00:55:01,678 --> 00:55:04,931 and then all of a sudden, it was like she just didn't care. 1102 00:55:07,058 --> 00:55:10,687 ♪ 1103 00:55:10,687 --> 00:55:11,938 I'd flunked out of U of I 1104 00:55:11,938 --> 00:55:14,649 because I had been so focused on New York. 1105 00:55:18,111 --> 00:55:22,157 I went from weighing, like, you know, 200-something to a 100-something, 1106 00:55:22,157 --> 00:55:25,327 but doing it all through starvation and cocaine usage. 1107 00:55:28,038 --> 00:55:32,500 CASEY: It was, yeah, pills and cocaine and ecstasy. 1108 00:55:33,710 --> 00:55:37,088 It became apparent more and more as we kept hanging out. 1109 00:55:38,381 --> 00:55:40,091 And at the same time also 1110 00:55:40,091 --> 00:55:45,889 he was very into someone named Tommy. 1111 00:55:46,890 --> 00:55:50,477 MORGAN: "Tommy. 07/24/10. 1112 00:55:50,477 --> 00:55:51,937 "I guess I'm getting desperate 1113 00:55:51,937 --> 00:55:55,065 because I emailed that hot drug dealer last night." 1114 00:55:55,065 --> 00:56:00,445 He was like the skateboarder, pot grower, tattoo artist, bad boy, 1115 00:56:00,445 --> 00:56:01,863 and we just kind of clicked. 1116 00:56:02,489 --> 00:56:05,533 "When he met me, he gave me $40 in cash 1117 00:56:05,533 --> 00:56:09,162 "and $40 worth of the best weed in town. 1118 00:56:09,162 --> 00:56:13,375 "He also promised to give me free ecstasy pills, lol. 1119 00:56:13,375 --> 00:56:17,671 "He claims he's straight and looks and acts very straight. 1120 00:56:17,671 --> 00:56:22,592 But for some reason, the waxing moon, I thought of him last night." 1121 00:56:22,592 --> 00:56:26,179 - I didn't get the impression that they hung out necessarily. 1122 00:56:26,179 --> 00:56:30,225 It was just more James kind of like lusting after him. 1123 00:56:30,892 --> 00:56:33,144 MORGAN: "07/23/11. 1124 00:56:33,144 --> 00:56:37,440 "We've never kissed, you've never held my hand. 1125 00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:42,028 I've never given so much of myself to anyone or anything." 1126 00:56:42,696 --> 00:56:44,364 CASEY: James latched on 1127 00:56:44,364 --> 00:56:48,201 and it got to a point where the obsession was a lot. 1128 00:56:48,201 --> 00:56:49,661 It was a lot. It was a lot to hear. 1129 00:56:49,661 --> 00:56:53,415 It was a lot to see my friend obsessing over someone 1130 00:56:53,415 --> 00:56:56,376 who clearly had no interest in him at all, 1131 00:56:56,376 --> 00:56:59,504 but was willing to accept anything that James gave. 1132 00:56:59,880 --> 00:57:03,633 He took credit cards out and was doing cash advances 1133 00:57:03,633 --> 00:57:07,429 and, um, giving envelopes of money, 1134 00:57:07,429 --> 00:57:10,098 just leaving it on Tommy's doorstep. 1135 00:57:10,098 --> 00:57:13,226 - You know, at that time I had, um-- I was very free 1136 00:57:13,226 --> 00:57:16,605 with, like, things that I had access to, like funds and things. 1137 00:57:16,605 --> 00:57:19,608 And I found that he was misappropriating 1138 00:57:19,608 --> 00:57:21,985 a lot of the funds that I had made available to him 1139 00:57:21,985 --> 00:57:27,032 and using them in... not... good ways. 1140 00:57:27,032 --> 00:57:28,992 ZACKARY: Where'd the money come from? 1141 00:57:29,701 --> 00:57:32,871 - I was borrowing against my own inheritance. 1142 00:57:33,830 --> 00:57:38,460 So, um, it was like funds that were appropriated for me eventually, 1143 00:57:38,460 --> 00:57:40,795 but I was just taking it really early on. 1144 00:57:40,795 --> 00:57:42,130 [giggles] 1145 00:57:42,130 --> 00:57:43,173 ZACKARY: From your parents? 1146 00:57:43,173 --> 00:57:44,633 - Yeah. 1147 00:57:44,633 --> 00:57:48,762 It was like $300,000 when I was, like, 19 years old. You know? 1148 00:57:50,013 --> 00:57:52,766 ZACKARY: Did that affect your parents' finances? 1149 00:57:52,766 --> 00:57:55,101 Did they file for bankruptcy? 1150 00:57:56,102 --> 00:57:57,771 - Uh, yeah, they did. 1151 00:58:03,652 --> 00:58:05,487 CASEY: I was really confused by it 1152 00:58:05,487 --> 00:58:08,740 and no matter how much I said, like, "You need to stop. 1153 00:58:08,740 --> 00:58:12,744 Like, stop giving him money. Like, just leave it alone, move on," 1154 00:58:12,744 --> 00:58:14,788 it, it didn't really matter. 1155 00:58:14,788 --> 00:58:20,001 It really sucked because I knew who he could be. 1156 00:58:20,001 --> 00:58:22,712 I knew who we were together, like, how much fun we had, 1157 00:58:22,712 --> 00:58:24,422 how carefree we were, 1158 00:58:24,422 --> 00:58:27,926 how creative he was, and how charismatic he was. 1159 00:58:27,926 --> 00:58:32,764 Like, he could make friends with anyone just, like, win anybody over. 1160 00:58:32,764 --> 00:58:38,562 But at that time, it was Tommy and pills and cocaine and ecstasy 1161 00:58:38,562 --> 00:58:40,230 to the point where-- 1162 00:58:42,107 --> 00:58:46,570 Yeah, I guess that was, like, the catalyst to ending our friendship. Yeah. 1163 00:58:50,699 --> 00:58:53,451 MORGAN: And it just made me, like, not want to write anymore, 1164 00:58:53,451 --> 00:58:54,661 be myself anymore. 1165 00:58:54,661 --> 00:58:57,038 It just made me really want to shut down. 1166 00:58:58,665 --> 00:59:00,834 I overdosed three times that 1167 00:59:00,834 --> 00:59:03,962 I was hospitalized three times that summer. 1168 00:59:03,962 --> 00:59:06,214 I'd reached a weight that was so low. 1169 00:59:06,214 --> 00:59:10,760 I wasn't eating just because I was so sad by the situation that I was in. 1170 00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:13,555 Like, the one choice that I made as a free adult, 1171 00:59:14,306 --> 00:59:18,393 was a really bad choice and I really felt that, so 1172 00:59:24,608 --> 00:59:26,067 it's really fucking painful. 1173 00:59:26,067 --> 00:59:28,361 Like, I feel like I'm gonna break down right now. 1174 00:59:28,361 --> 00:59:30,447 [inhales, deep exhale] 1175 00:59:30,447 --> 00:59:31,948 ZACKARY: Thank you so much. 1176 00:59:31,948 --> 00:59:34,576 - Of course. I did not know you even knew about that stuff. 1177 00:59:34,576 --> 00:59:36,578 - What? - That whole "Tommy" shit. 1178 00:59:36,578 --> 00:59:38,788 I did not know you guys were going to bring that up. 1179 00:59:38,788 --> 00:59:40,123 - It's okay. - The bankruptcy stuff. 1180 00:59:40,123 --> 00:59:42,083 Oh, my God. I'm so embarrassed. 1181 00:59:42,083 --> 00:59:45,212 - It's not embarrassing. - I feel like fucking crying right now. 1182 00:59:45,212 --> 00:59:47,130 Like, I'm so ashamed of that shit. 1183 00:59:47,130 --> 00:59:48,506 - You don't have to be, girl. 1184 00:59:48,506 --> 00:59:51,051 - I am. - It's a no-shame zone. 1185 00:59:51,051 --> 00:59:53,470 And, you know, things happen to us, and-- 1186 00:59:53,470 --> 00:59:55,347 MORGAN: Like, I made some stupid-ass choices. 1187 00:59:55,347 --> 00:59:57,182 That's fucking pathetic and sad. 1188 00:59:57,182 --> 01:00:01,436 - It's not. It's naive, but young people are naive. 1189 01:00:02,896 --> 01:00:05,523 - Yeah, I keep forgetting I was like 18 years old. 1190 01:00:06,024 --> 01:00:09,903 I didn't-- I never had a boyfriend before that. You know? [laughs] 1191 01:00:10,528 --> 01:00:12,989 - Yeah. - But still... 1192 01:00:12,989 --> 01:00:15,533 - It's all in your writing. 1193 01:00:15,533 --> 01:00:18,453 In your-- In a way, you know, it's like a-- you can tell. 1194 01:00:18,453 --> 01:00:21,164 - What do you mean? - That you were being taken advantage of. 1195 01:00:21,164 --> 01:00:22,791 That you were in love. 1196 01:00:22,791 --> 01:00:25,669 - Aw. [inaudible] you a crown. - You know? 1197 01:00:25,669 --> 01:00:26,878 [Zackary chuckles] 1198 01:00:27,963 --> 01:00:29,965 - It's hard to, like, answer to someone. 1199 01:00:29,965 --> 01:00:31,550 It's hard to answer on film. 1200 01:00:31,550 --> 01:00:33,718 It's hard to answer to an audience 1201 01:00:33,718 --> 01:00:36,972 that's not even aware of these sins that I'd committed. You know? 1202 01:00:36,972 --> 01:00:39,558 I did cheat my family. I did cheat my parents. 1203 01:00:39,558 --> 01:00:41,685 I did lie to them. 1204 01:00:41,685 --> 01:00:44,187 I'd never forgiven myself for that. 1205 01:00:46,565 --> 01:00:48,358 - I hope that you will. 1206 01:00:48,358 --> 01:00:49,859 - Yeah. - Yeah. 1207 01:00:49,859 --> 01:00:54,573 I hope that looking at those things and letting them exist in the light 1208 01:00:54,573 --> 01:00:58,444 allows them to diminish the power that it has. 1209 01:01:00,912 --> 01:01:03,290 ♪ upbeat music playing ♪ 1210 01:01:12,924 --> 01:01:16,469 ZACKARY: There she is... MORGAN: Hi. How are you? 1211 01:01:16,469 --> 01:01:20,098 ZACKARY: ...the light of my life. [laughs] Aw. 1212 01:01:20,098 --> 01:01:21,558 MORGAN: I literally just woke up right now. 1213 01:01:21,558 --> 01:01:24,477 ZACKARY: Ooh, girl. MORGAN: You have no idea. 1214 01:01:24,477 --> 01:01:27,147 - Girl, okay, I'll do your makeup. 1215 01:01:27,147 --> 01:01:29,941 MORGAN: Okay, cool. - I have breakfast for you. 1216 01:01:29,941 --> 01:01:32,277 MORGAN: Oh! ZACKARY: We'll do it in here. 1217 01:01:32,277 --> 01:01:33,361 MORGAN: Okay. 1218 01:01:34,529 --> 01:01:35,989 ZACKARY: Do you know your neighbor? 1219 01:01:35,989 --> 01:01:41,494 - This lady above me was like, "I can't live in such a space." 1220 01:01:41,494 --> 01:01:44,414 I'd only have, like, two or three guys come in every night. 1221 01:01:44,414 --> 01:01:48,001 It wasn't like I was having, like, an orgy every fucking day. 1222 01:01:49,377 --> 01:01:52,297 Gone. Like, how has my life fallen? ZACKARY: Yeah. 1223 01:01:52,297 --> 01:01:55,133 MORGAN: Because I fell in love with that guy, Tommy. 1224 01:01:55,133 --> 01:01:57,219 How did that go? 1225 01:01:57,219 --> 01:02:00,722 This is why I do fucking decrepit things like sex work and shit, 1226 01:02:00,722 --> 01:02:02,557 'cause I don't get money otherwise. 1227 01:02:03,350 --> 01:02:05,310 I didn't start doing this until I was-- 1228 01:02:05,310 --> 01:02:10,357 I realized that my parents weren't ever giving money again-- 1229 01:02:10,357 --> 01:02:13,026 ZACKARY: So, when, when you're putting these 1230 01:02:13,026 --> 01:02:17,948 in this whole photo gallery together, like, what is the story, 1231 01:02:17,948 --> 01:02:19,115 in your mind? 1232 01:02:19,115 --> 01:02:22,369 MORGAN: Here's like, this really beautiful girl who's like a princess, 1233 01:02:22,369 --> 01:02:24,204 and then you have a little bio. 1234 01:02:24,204 --> 01:02:27,874 ZACKARY: "Baby girl. Your dream cum true." C-U-M. 1235 01:02:27,874 --> 01:02:31,169 "Gorgeous, sweet, and a true prince--" See, I've always known 1236 01:02:31,169 --> 01:02:34,381 [Morgan laughing] your brilliant writing 1237 01:02:34,381 --> 01:02:40,136 is, like, being... used in clandestine places. 1238 01:02:40,136 --> 01:02:43,014 "College educated, former fashion model... 1239 01:02:43,014 --> 01:02:46,810 - Oh! This is true. - ...with 38DDD breasts." [laughs] 1240 01:02:46,810 --> 01:02:49,938 - This is true. I have, like, I have 950CC bras. 1241 01:02:49,938 --> 01:02:52,732 - "And the biggest booty known to man. 1242 01:02:52,732 --> 01:02:55,151 You will join me again and again and again." 1243 01:02:55,151 --> 01:02:56,278 - Woo! 1244 01:02:57,070 --> 01:03:00,240 ZACKARY: "Classy and elegant, but wild and freaky. 1245 01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:05,287 The knockout girl of your dreams is here, motherfuckers." 1246 01:03:05,287 --> 01:03:06,955 - You have to lie just a little. 1247 01:03:06,955 --> 01:03:09,124 - Okay, well, you're not 24. 1248 01:03:09,124 --> 01:03:11,710 - Okay, whatever. That's my hoe age. 1249 01:03:11,710 --> 01:03:15,338 - You say that you're 5'9" here and you say you're 5'7" here. 1250 01:03:15,338 --> 01:03:18,717 - Whatever. These guys are not noticing discrepancies. 1251 01:03:18,717 --> 01:03:21,136 And right behind here, I keep my journal. 1252 01:03:23,221 --> 01:03:26,266 ZACKARY: Oh, you wrote. You've been writing? 1253 01:03:26,266 --> 01:03:27,475 MORGAN: Kind of. 1254 01:03:27,475 --> 01:03:30,562 - This is actual writing. On the page. 1255 01:03:30,562 --> 01:03:34,733 "There was this beautiful, haunted, charmed life I led 1256 01:03:34,733 --> 01:03:39,529 "in the... confines of New York so quickly and ardently 1257 01:03:39,529 --> 01:03:40,906 "and they embraced me. 1258 01:03:40,906 --> 01:03:46,536 "So natural a fit, it felt no training could prep them for me. 1259 01:03:46,536 --> 01:03:51,082 "To see some nearly all resolute to brute-based behavior-- 1260 01:03:51,082 --> 01:03:52,709 - Mm-hm. - "reaction, 1261 01:03:52,709 --> 01:03:56,796 made me see the carnivorous mammal in them." 1262 01:03:56,796 --> 01:03:59,382 T. S. Eliot would be so lucky. 1263 01:03:59,382 --> 01:04:02,010 [both laughing] 1264 01:04:02,761 --> 01:04:04,221 - What's this one? 1265 01:04:04,221 --> 01:04:07,432 "Dear Tinsley, thank you for being the kaleidoscope 1266 01:04:07,432 --> 01:04:09,517 "through which I saw the world. 1267 01:04:09,517 --> 01:04:11,686 "Thank you for being my friend. 1268 01:04:11,686 --> 01:04:16,024 "Thank you for teaching me about, and sharing with me 1269 01:04:16,024 --> 01:04:19,027 "the evolution of fantasy to reality. 1270 01:04:19,653 --> 01:04:24,074 Blonds always have more fun. Nothing can stop us." 1271 01:04:25,158 --> 01:04:27,494 'Cause at the time, I felt like a lot of her life 1272 01:04:27,494 --> 01:04:29,955 was like, being red-lighted. - Yeah. 1273 01:04:29,955 --> 01:04:32,499 - Like, she couldn't be who she wanted to be. 1274 01:04:32,999 --> 01:04:34,292 - Yeah. - And I-I really-- 1275 01:04:34,292 --> 01:04:36,086 I always related to her on that respect. 1276 01:04:36,086 --> 01:04:38,421 Like, she really just wanted to be someone else 1277 01:04:38,421 --> 01:04:40,757 that the world wouldn't let her be. 1278 01:04:41,091 --> 01:04:44,010 ♪ somber music playing ♪ 1279 01:04:48,265 --> 01:04:51,393 COURI: So, at some point, Tinsley stopped listening 1280 01:04:52,686 --> 01:04:55,647 and she decided to become self-directed. 1281 01:04:55,647 --> 01:04:58,858 And this-- I believe that without proper guidance 1282 01:04:58,858 --> 01:05:00,819 it can go all wrong. 1283 01:05:00,819 --> 01:05:02,404 It's like driving drunk. 1284 01:05:02,404 --> 01:05:05,031 It's just not advisable. 1285 01:05:06,324 --> 01:05:07,659 And so, I let her go. 1286 01:05:07,659 --> 01:05:12,664 I let her off-leash and I regret it because I think I could've guided her 1287 01:05:12,664 --> 01:05:15,625 through what I think was her eventual downfall. 1288 01:05:15,625 --> 01:05:18,378 I mean, let's face it, no one went higher 1289 01:05:18,378 --> 01:05:20,422 and fell further down than Tinsley. 1290 01:05:20,422 --> 01:05:23,967 What was she arrested on the lawn of a boyfriend? 1291 01:05:23,967 --> 01:05:26,261 Uh, you know, a fancy boyfriend at that. 1292 01:05:28,054 --> 01:05:31,558 REPORTER: In April of 2016, Mortimer was arrested for trespassing 1293 01:05:31,558 --> 01:05:33,894 at the Palm Beach home of her ex-boyfriend, 1294 01:05:33,894 --> 01:05:35,854 Alexander "Nico" Fanjul. 1295 01:05:35,854 --> 01:05:39,566 A day later, the news went public and her mugshot became tabloid fodder. 1296 01:05:39,566 --> 01:05:42,193 - We got in a big fight and I couldn't get my bag back. 1297 01:05:42,193 --> 01:05:44,738 So I, I called the police to help me get the bag back. 1298 01:05:44,738 --> 01:05:46,990 That's when I found out that they could arrest me 1299 01:05:46,990 --> 01:05:49,284 for being on the property, which was complete shock to me. 1300 01:05:49,284 --> 01:05:52,329 - Public records show authorities have been to the Fanjul home 1301 01:05:52,329 --> 01:05:53,872 to break up savage fights. 1302 01:05:53,872 --> 01:05:56,082 After one on Christmas 2013, 1303 01:05:56,082 --> 01:05:58,793 Mortimer was hospitalized with head lacerations. 1304 01:05:59,753 --> 01:06:01,046 TINSLEY: That relationship ended. 1305 01:06:01,046 --> 01:06:03,548 And it ended up putting me in a place in my life 1306 01:06:03,548 --> 01:06:07,135 that I was so low and felt that, 1307 01:06:07,135 --> 01:06:10,764 you know, I was so unfairly sort of accused of this situation 1308 01:06:10,764 --> 01:06:12,015 that really was not the truth. 1309 01:06:12,015 --> 01:06:14,601 And again, in that position where you're like, 1310 01:06:14,601 --> 01:06:16,645 the press is saying one thing, this is not the truth. 1311 01:06:16,645 --> 01:06:18,563 And you sort of feel like you're fighting for your life 1312 01:06:18,563 --> 01:06:19,940 and you're trying to explain yourself. 1313 01:06:19,940 --> 01:06:20,941 [indistinct chatter] 1314 01:06:20,941 --> 01:06:22,525 PERSON 1: I like your outfit. - Thank you. 1315 01:06:22,525 --> 01:06:24,277 PERSON 2: Look nice today, Tinsley. - Thanks. 1316 01:06:26,112 --> 01:06:28,240 Looking back now to all the things that I did, 1317 01:06:28,240 --> 01:06:30,367 it was so glamorous and fun 1318 01:06:30,367 --> 01:06:33,453 and a lot of, you know, things have been tough, a little bit recently. 1319 01:06:33,453 --> 01:06:36,331 And so, um, it's nice to see that girl that was, like, super confident 1320 01:06:36,331 --> 01:06:39,251 and, um, it's-- it has-- it's been nice to kind of 1321 01:06:39,251 --> 01:06:42,796 try to remember that girl and to, hopefully, 1322 01:06:42,796 --> 01:06:44,714 you know, do something like that again. 1323 01:06:44,714 --> 01:06:45,840 [sniffles] 1324 01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:47,008 Sorry. 1325 01:06:49,803 --> 01:06:52,681 KELLY: This concept of fame, it's a burden. 1326 01:06:52,681 --> 01:06:54,724 Just because somebody's pretty and a size two 1327 01:06:54,724 --> 01:06:56,476 and they have a hundred million dollars-- 1328 01:06:56,977 --> 01:07:01,022 I hate to say it, but I mean there have been plenty of socialites, 1329 01:07:01,022 --> 01:07:05,735 you know, who've died, like unfortunately, you know, that appear to have everything. 1330 01:07:05,735 --> 01:07:07,237 And then they're still unhappy. 1331 01:07:07,237 --> 01:07:10,448 [indistinct chatter] 1332 01:07:10,448 --> 01:07:14,452 REPORTER: She was young, beautiful, and an heiress to an empire. 1333 01:07:14,452 --> 01:07:18,957 Now, Casey Johnson's sudden death has many asking how and why. 1334 01:07:19,791 --> 01:07:24,504 COURI: Casey Johnson is the saddest socialite story 1335 01:07:24,504 --> 01:07:26,339 that has ever been written. 1336 01:07:26,339 --> 01:07:28,258 It was about too much money. 1337 01:07:28,258 --> 01:07:30,844 Casey just couldn't control herself. 1338 01:07:31,553 --> 01:07:34,639 BEN: Casey was the daughter of the Johnson & Johnson empire. 1339 01:07:34,639 --> 01:07:37,976 Her father, Woody Johnson, owner of the Jets football team, 1340 01:07:37,976 --> 01:07:40,145 later Trump's ambassador to London. 1341 01:07:40,145 --> 01:07:41,897 Very big, very powerful family. 1342 01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:45,567 When the concept for The Simple Life was first mooted, 1343 01:07:45,567 --> 01:07:49,195 it was going to be Paris Hilton and Casey Johnson as the second girl. 1344 01:07:49,195 --> 01:07:51,323 And Casey decided not to do it 1345 01:07:51,323 --> 01:07:54,409 because she wanted to move to Los Angeles and become a serious actress. 1346 01:07:54,409 --> 01:07:57,329 And she said later that she regretting that decision. 1347 01:07:57,329 --> 01:08:00,040 PHOTOGRAPHER 1: Ladies! PHOTOGRAPHER 2: To your right, ladies. To the right, please! 1348 01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:02,584 BEN: She was bisexual. She had many girlfriends in Los Angeles. 1349 01:08:02,584 --> 01:08:06,588 She hooked up with Tila Tequila, who was a reality star of the moment. 1350 01:08:06,588 --> 01:08:10,759 And the two made a number of very flashy, quite vulgar appearances on red carpets, 1351 01:08:10,759 --> 01:08:12,969 which of course, they lapped up. 1352 01:08:12,969 --> 01:08:14,137 Unfortunately, at the time, 1353 01:08:14,137 --> 01:08:17,140 she was also using drugs and alcohol to excess. 1354 01:08:17,140 --> 01:08:20,352 [indistinct chatter] 1355 01:08:20,352 --> 01:08:23,563 BEN: And unfortunately, not long afterwards, she died in her bed 1356 01:08:23,563 --> 01:08:25,774 because she wasn't monitoring her health conditions. 1357 01:08:25,774 --> 01:08:27,234 PERSON: Hi, ladies. 1358 01:08:27,234 --> 01:08:29,444 KELLY: She never told people that she was a Johnson. 1359 01:08:29,444 --> 01:08:32,447 She was just this cool, little, blonde girl who was, like, super dope, 1360 01:08:32,447 --> 01:08:35,158 who was, like, a total troublemaker. 1361 01:08:36,243 --> 01:08:37,535 I don't know why I'm crying about her. 1362 01:08:37,535 --> 01:08:39,663 She was the coolest girl ever, right? 1363 01:08:39,663 --> 01:08:43,917 So... I don't think that happiness and money or the way that you look 1364 01:08:43,917 --> 01:08:45,502 has anything to do with any of it. 1365 01:08:45,502 --> 01:08:47,087 I think it's a big lie. 1366 01:08:50,090 --> 01:08:53,593 EMILY: So, about halfway through my Gawker career, 1367 01:08:53,593 --> 01:08:55,262 my year at Gawker, 1368 01:08:55,262 --> 01:08:59,933 I was asked to be a guest on an episode of Larry King Live 1369 01:08:59,933 --> 01:09:02,310 that was being guest hosted by Jimmy Kimmel. 1370 01:09:02,310 --> 01:09:05,647 JIMMY KIMMEL: Emily Gould. She's the editor of the website Gawker.com. 1371 01:09:05,647 --> 01:09:07,816 Hello, Emily. - Hi, Jimmy. 1372 01:09:07,816 --> 01:09:12,195 And it turned out that Jimmy Kimmel had some very specific beef with Gawker. 1373 01:09:12,195 --> 01:09:14,656 Gawker had written about him in a way that he didn't like. 1374 01:09:14,656 --> 01:09:19,160 - My problem is, uh, you post things that simply aren't true on, on the site, 1375 01:09:19,160 --> 01:09:22,122 and you do no checking on your stories whatsoever. 1376 01:09:22,122 --> 01:09:23,373 I'll give you an example. 1377 01:09:23,373 --> 01:09:27,002 There was a story about me that popped up on my Google search. 1378 01:09:27,002 --> 01:09:28,920 It said, "Daily Gawker Stalker: 1379 01:09:28,920 --> 01:09:31,798 When Isn't Jimmy Kimmel Visibly Intoxicated?" 1380 01:09:31,798 --> 01:09:35,927 - The Gawker tip line was just flooded with so many people 1381 01:09:35,927 --> 01:09:39,222 just wanting to tell me what an idiotic, 1382 01:09:39,222 --> 01:09:43,435 teenage, stupid... whore I was. 1383 01:09:43,435 --> 01:09:47,647 And how dare I besmirch the name of Jimmy Kimmel? 1384 01:09:47,647 --> 01:09:51,359 Honestly, I think that there's a shifting definition of what is public 1385 01:09:51,359 --> 01:09:54,529 and what is private space for everyone, not just celebrities. 1386 01:09:54,529 --> 01:09:56,740 The internet, blogs, Myspace. 1387 01:09:56,740 --> 01:09:59,826 No one has the reasonable expectation of being able to walk down the street 1388 01:09:59,826 --> 01:10:02,913 and not have what they're doing be noticed by someone anymore. 1389 01:10:02,913 --> 01:10:05,540 - Well, that's just-- that is just a terrible thing though, isn't it? 1390 01:10:05,540 --> 01:10:07,000 I mean, just-- - Is it really? 1391 01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:08,251 - Yeah, it is. - I mean, I think it's great 1392 01:10:08,251 --> 01:10:09,753 that we're not putting people up on a pedestal 1393 01:10:09,753 --> 01:10:11,004 and worshiping them anymore. 1394 01:10:11,004 --> 01:10:12,672 I think it's good that people are acknowledging 1395 01:10:12,672 --> 01:10:14,925 that celebrities are real people. - Yeah, you're throwing rocks at them though. 1396 01:10:14,925 --> 01:10:17,677 I mean, that's not-- - It's not okay to say false things about anyone. 1397 01:10:17,677 --> 01:10:19,679 I'm not talking about-- - Well, you should check your website then. 1398 01:10:19,679 --> 01:10:21,097 Thank you for, uh, talking to us. 1399 01:10:21,097 --> 01:10:23,892 Anderson Cooper 360's on at the top of the hour. Filling in-- 1400 01:10:23,892 --> 01:10:25,977 EMILY: I just had, like, a mini nervous breakdown 1401 01:10:25,977 --> 01:10:29,064 and couldn't go to work, 1402 01:10:29,064 --> 01:10:31,900 like, couldn't really make myself do anything. 1403 01:10:32,651 --> 01:10:36,404 After I stopped working at Gawker, I became a target of Gawker. 1404 01:10:36,404 --> 01:10:39,699 It would be funny if it hadn't been so, you know, 1405 01:10:39,699 --> 01:10:42,827 the same punishment will be visit on, on you 1406 01:10:42,827 --> 01:10:44,788 that you dished out to so many people. 1407 01:10:44,788 --> 01:10:47,165 You know, and I eventually sort of had a lot of therapy 1408 01:10:47,165 --> 01:10:48,792 and in some way got over it. 1409 01:10:48,792 --> 01:10:50,460 But it's something that has still like-- 1410 01:10:51,836 --> 01:10:55,632 I'm clearly not like, totally okay. And it's 15 years on. 1411 01:10:57,467 --> 01:11:02,222 - [slight chuckle] Oh, what is this? Wait, what is it? Oh-- 1412 01:11:02,222 --> 01:11:06,851 ZACKARY: It's Morgan. - Oh! [gasps] Oh, my God. 1413 01:11:06,851 --> 01:11:11,565 She is so... pretty. I gotta send her some of my lashes. 1414 01:11:11,565 --> 01:11:14,693 Oh, my God. That's-- I mean, I-- Do-- I was like, "Who?" 1415 01:11:14,693 --> 01:11:19,155 I mean, no way. No way. 1416 01:11:19,155 --> 01:11:22,659 Oh, my God. Gorgeous. 1417 01:11:22,659 --> 01:11:24,828 Look at her lips and everything. Oh, my God, she's so pretty. Oh, my God. 1418 01:11:24,828 --> 01:11:28,331 I really want to meet her. I got to c-- I got to contact her. 1419 01:11:29,207 --> 01:11:35,171 That is insane. D-Did-- I mean... [softly] oh, my gosh. 1420 01:11:36,256 --> 01:11:40,051 So cute. Oh, my gosh. 1421 01:11:40,051 --> 01:11:43,388 Holy cow! Gorgeous. How-- Amazing! 1422 01:11:43,388 --> 01:11:46,641 I mean, sorry. I'm so shocked. 1423 01:11:46,641 --> 01:11:51,271 Wow! I mean the little cute boy that came over to me-- Oh, my God. 1424 01:11:51,271 --> 01:11:53,565 That's cra-- That's incredible. That's amazing. 1425 01:11:57,319 --> 01:11:59,029 [phone ringing] 1426 01:11:59,487 --> 01:12:01,114 TINSLEY [on phone]: Hello? 1427 01:12:01,114 --> 01:12:03,033 - Hi, Tins. How are you? 1428 01:12:03,033 --> 01:12:04,117 - Hi. 1429 01:12:04,117 --> 01:12:05,952 - How are you? 1430 01:12:05,952 --> 01:12:06,912 - Um, 1431 01:12:06,912 --> 01:12:09,915 um, I mean, I've been-- - I missed you. 1432 01:12:09,915 --> 01:12:11,791 - I've been better, but I've been well, 1433 01:12:11,791 --> 01:12:16,004 and it's so funny, I couldn't even believe that you are living in Chicago. 1434 01:12:16,004 --> 01:12:18,173 I mean, I would-- when I was living there a year ago, 1435 01:12:18,173 --> 01:12:20,884 it would've been nice to know and have a, a girlfriend there because... 1436 01:12:20,884 --> 01:12:23,220 - Yeah. - ...' cause I was there with barely anybody that I knew. 1437 01:12:23,220 --> 01:12:24,387 - Really? 1438 01:12:24,387 --> 01:12:26,973 - It would've been so fun to have you there. 1439 01:12:27,349 --> 01:12:28,391 - That's so crazy. 1440 01:12:28,391 --> 01:12:30,852 No, I would've loved to have seen you back then, too. 1441 01:12:30,852 --> 01:12:32,604 Where are you now? - I know. 1442 01:12:32,604 --> 01:12:35,440 Well, I mean, right now, um, since I left Chicago 1443 01:12:35,440 --> 01:12:39,402 because this, you know, whatever, it's, it's a long story-- 1444 01:12:39,402 --> 01:12:41,821 - I'm so sorry to hear that, hon. TINSLEY: I-I know, it's-- 1445 01:12:41,821 --> 01:12:44,658 - Hon, are you still hosting stuff? 1446 01:12:44,658 --> 01:12:46,576 - I still do, um, a lot of-- 1447 01:12:46,576 --> 01:12:48,745 Yes. I still do a lot of different things. Hosting and stuff. 1448 01:12:48,745 --> 01:12:51,248 And a lot of the things, actually that I, I work with a lot of, 1449 01:12:51,248 --> 01:12:54,501 are animal shelters and, and rescues and things like that. 1450 01:12:54,501 --> 01:12:57,837 And actually, I'm coming to Chicago this week 1451 01:12:57,837 --> 01:13:00,298 and I'm going, um, because I'm coming-- 1452 01:13:00,298 --> 01:13:02,008 'Cause I still-- I work for PAWS Chicago. 1453 01:13:02,008 --> 01:13:03,635 I'm on their board of directors. 1454 01:13:03,635 --> 01:13:05,929 - Congratulations. That's amazing. - And they have this thing, um-- 1455 01:13:05,929 --> 01:13:08,139 - Let me know how I can help you with that, okay? 1456 01:13:08,139 --> 01:13:10,308 - Well, um, you can help me 1457 01:13:10,308 --> 01:13:14,020 because I would love for you to come with me to the event on Friday. 1458 01:13:14,020 --> 01:13:15,146 It's this Friday. 1459 01:13:15,146 --> 01:13:16,982 - Okay. - It's at the Drake Hotel. 1460 01:13:16,982 --> 01:13:19,484 - Lovely. - It's black tie, seated dinner, 1461 01:13:19,484 --> 01:13:20,902 um, dancing. 1462 01:13:20,902 --> 01:13:23,655 And, um, you can bring somebody, too. 1463 01:13:23,655 --> 01:13:25,073 I don't know if you're dating anybody now, 1464 01:13:25,073 --> 01:13:26,700 but you can totally bring somebody. - I'm not. I just broke-- 1465 01:13:26,700 --> 01:13:28,201 - You're not? - I just broke up with someone. 1466 01:13:28,201 --> 01:13:30,453 - Well, I'm not either, so great. [laughs] 1467 01:13:30,453 --> 01:13:31,496 - Lovely. 1468 01:13:31,496 --> 01:13:32,831 - We can just have fun. 1469 01:13:32,831 --> 01:13:35,375 Um, I am bringing my dogs, Strawberry and Shortcake, 1470 01:13:35,375 --> 01:13:37,711 because this event you can bring your dogs 1471 01:13:37,711 --> 01:13:40,964 and I'm dressing them up. They're basically gonna match me. 1472 01:13:40,964 --> 01:13:43,466 Yeah. Well, I'm so excited I get to see you. 1473 01:13:43,466 --> 01:13:46,177 - I know. I'm really excited to see you. - This is gonna be so fun. 1474 01:13:46,177 --> 01:13:49,139 - It's gonna be our New York Times piece all over again, one-- 1475 01:13:49,139 --> 01:13:50,765 [Tinsley chuckles] Right? 1476 01:13:50,765 --> 01:13:54,102 Every time you and I unite, it's, it's always written about, I swear. 1477 01:13:54,102 --> 01:13:55,937 - Yes. No, it-- That was so-- 1478 01:13:55,937 --> 01:13:57,314 [Morgan laughing] 1479 01:13:57,314 --> 01:13:59,107 That piece was so adorable. 1480 01:13:59,107 --> 01:14:00,191 - Okay. Loves that. 1481 01:14:00,191 --> 01:14:01,776 Looking forward to seeing you, okay? - Bye, babe. 1482 01:14:01,776 --> 01:14:03,612 - Mwah. Love you. - Okay, me too. Okay. Bye. 1483 01:14:03,612 --> 01:14:04,654 - Bye. - Bye. 1484 01:14:06,990 --> 01:14:10,452 - Here you go. Thank you. 1485 01:14:10,452 --> 01:14:11,870 ZACKARY: What do you think? 1486 01:14:11,870 --> 01:14:14,915 - I felt, I felt myself falling back into who I was before 1487 01:14:14,915 --> 01:14:18,543 in the sense of, like, I'm always, like, a support-supporting character 1488 01:14:18,543 --> 01:14:20,879 when I'm no longer a supporting character. 1489 01:14:20,879 --> 01:14:24,591 And I have to remind myself that I'm also, like, a lead. 1490 01:14:24,591 --> 01:14:25,800 [giggles] 1491 01:14:25,800 --> 01:14:28,053 I'm just thinking of, like, where I need to go 1492 01:14:28,053 --> 01:14:30,055 to, like, get, like, a nice gown. 1493 01:14:30,513 --> 01:14:35,101 'Cause, like, you know, I haven't made my Chicago debut. 1494 01:14:35,393 --> 01:14:37,646 ♪ uptempo music playing ♪ 1495 01:14:47,822 --> 01:14:49,115 Hi. 1496 01:14:49,115 --> 01:14:53,203 MZ NEON: Girl, ugh, finally. Wow. 1497 01:14:53,203 --> 01:14:54,663 - Good to see you. Thank you. 1498 01:14:54,663 --> 01:14:57,249 - Bitch! - Do I look okay? 1499 01:14:57,249 --> 01:14:59,960 - Girl, you're a vision. [Morgan gasps] 1500 01:14:59,960 --> 01:15:01,294 - Thank you. 1501 01:15:01,294 --> 01:15:02,712 - What's going on? 1502 01:15:02,712 --> 01:15:05,507 - Ugh. Not much. I'm excited to see these looks, girl. 1503 01:15:08,176 --> 01:15:12,556 MZ NEON: Do you see yourself being trophy wife? 1504 01:15:12,556 --> 01:15:15,600 [Morgan chuckles] Or do you see yourself being, like, 1505 01:15:15,600 --> 01:15:16,935 the boss bitch? 1506 01:15:16,935 --> 01:15:18,687 What's the dream? Like-- 1507 01:15:18,687 --> 01:15:22,440 - I would love to inspire others to live their best truths. 1508 01:15:22,440 --> 01:15:25,402 - Right, which you're already doing. - And that could be, 1509 01:15:25,402 --> 01:15:27,195 and that could be, like, a beauty line. 1510 01:15:27,195 --> 01:15:29,364 - Hm. - That could be skincare line. 1511 01:15:29,364 --> 01:15:31,700 - Hm. - That could be hair extension line. 1512 01:15:31,700 --> 01:15:33,118 - Hm! - That could be a dress line. 1513 01:15:33,118 --> 01:15:35,036 - Right. - That could be so many different-- 1514 01:15:35,036 --> 01:15:36,621 It could manifest in so many ways. 1515 01:15:37,914 --> 01:15:41,126 - D-Do you see yourself ever getting married? 1516 01:15:41,126 --> 01:15:42,377 MORGAN: Yeah. 1517 01:15:42,377 --> 01:15:44,421 - I could see that for you. - Really? 1518 01:15:44,421 --> 01:15:45,589 - Yeah. 1519 01:15:45,589 --> 01:15:50,051 Have you ever thought about what your wedding announcement would say, 1520 01:15:50,051 --> 01:15:51,344 like, in the newspaper? - Oh, yeah. 1521 01:15:51,344 --> 01:15:53,722 I have written it, like, so many times. 1522 01:15:53,722 --> 01:15:54,806 - Really? - Yeah. 1523 01:15:54,806 --> 01:15:56,182 - Okay. What is it? 1524 01:15:56,182 --> 01:16:00,061 - It's like, "So-and-so, son of such-and-such 1525 01:16:00,061 --> 01:16:03,857 "was married yesterday to Morgan Olivia Rose, 1526 01:16:03,857 --> 01:16:06,192 the daughter of no one." 1527 01:16:06,192 --> 01:16:07,736 - Word! [Morgan laughs] 1528 01:16:07,736 --> 01:16:12,490 - And then it's like, "The bridegroom, 20 or 30-something, 1529 01:16:12,490 --> 01:16:14,826 is a graduate of Harvard College." 1530 01:16:18,663 --> 01:16:21,583 "Mrs.--" You know, 'cause it's a wedding announcement 1531 01:16:21,583 --> 01:16:23,585 with my new last name. 1532 01:16:23,585 --> 01:16:26,004 And it has my age. No one has to know my age. 1533 01:16:27,172 --> 01:16:31,593 "...is a former transsexual prostitute and film star." 1534 01:16:31,593 --> 01:16:33,762 [laughs] 1535 01:16:36,348 --> 01:16:38,850 MZ NEON: It's so important to show your story 1536 01:16:38,850 --> 01:16:42,562 and to show that with all of our stories, 1537 01:16:42,562 --> 01:16:45,941 like, we're not all one thing. 1538 01:16:45,941 --> 01:16:50,028 We exist outside whatever boxes people want to put us in. 1539 01:16:55,033 --> 01:16:57,035 ZACKARY: What's next for you, Tinsley? 1540 01:16:58,119 --> 01:16:59,996 - You know when people ask you what you do or things or what do you want to do? 1541 01:16:59,996 --> 01:17:01,289 It's like, I don't really know what to say. 1542 01:17:01,289 --> 01:17:03,375 Sometimes you just, like, give, like, a generic answer. Like-- 1543 01:17:03,375 --> 01:17:05,627 Actually, it's the same answer I give now. 1544 01:17:05,627 --> 01:17:07,796 I say, "I just want to be a housewife." 1545 01:17:07,796 --> 01:17:09,130 A real housewife. 1546 01:17:09,130 --> 01:17:12,300 Not a, "Real housewife," but a real housewife. [laughs] 1547 01:17:12,300 --> 01:17:15,679 Because, I mean, in a w-- I mean, I don't only want to talk about 1548 01:17:15,679 --> 01:17:17,472 all of my business stuff I want to do and things, 1549 01:17:17,472 --> 01:17:20,183 but I also do want to have a child and be a housewife. 1550 01:17:20,183 --> 01:17:24,187 A real one. Anyway. Sorry. Tangents. 1551 01:17:24,563 --> 01:17:27,023 ♪ uptempo music playing ♪ 1552 01:17:29,359 --> 01:17:32,279 [indistinct chatter] 1553 01:17:38,451 --> 01:17:40,996 - I need to cut something. Sorry. 1554 01:17:40,996 --> 01:17:43,331 ♪ 1555 01:17:45,750 --> 01:17:48,461 - What? Oh, thank you. [indistinct chatter] 1556 01:17:48,461 --> 01:17:50,338 You're going to take my phone and my, uh-- 1557 01:17:50,338 --> 01:17:51,840 ASSISTANT: Purse. 1558 01:17:53,383 --> 01:17:54,843 - Hi, girls. Okay. 1559 01:17:55,260 --> 01:17:58,221 They're very well-behaved, but they're also-- 1560 01:17:58,221 --> 01:18:00,348 I told them it was going to be just for a little bit, 1561 01:18:00,348 --> 01:18:02,934 but we're going to have to do all this and then it's gonna be done. 1562 01:18:02,934 --> 01:18:07,731 ♪ 1563 01:18:11,318 --> 01:18:13,653 [indistinct chatter] 1564 01:18:15,614 --> 01:18:18,408 I rescued them from China and I swear to God, 1565 01:18:18,408 --> 01:18:21,244 they are so-- they're just so grateful. 1566 01:18:21,244 --> 01:18:26,875 ♪ 1567 01:18:26,875 --> 01:18:29,753 I thought I was going to live here. I was like, living in Hancock. 1568 01:18:29,753 --> 01:18:31,922 I was engaged, too. It's a long story. 1569 01:18:31,922 --> 01:18:35,300 ♪ 1570 01:18:41,097 --> 01:18:43,141 I promise. Okay. [indistinct chatter] 1571 01:18:43,141 --> 01:18:46,728 ♪ 1572 01:18:51,358 --> 01:18:52,817 [Tinsley chuckles] 1573 01:18:55,237 --> 01:18:56,529 Sorry. Hi. 1574 01:18:56,529 --> 01:19:00,408 - So, Morgan just told me she's backing out. She doesn't want to come. 1575 01:19:00,408 --> 01:19:02,035 - Oh, my God. She can't. - Yeah. 1576 01:19:02,035 --> 01:19:06,790 - Why? - She's like, I don't know. She's-- 1577 01:19:06,790 --> 01:19:09,501 - Okay. Well, let me talk to her, maybe. 1578 01:19:16,174 --> 01:19:19,970 - Yeah, like-- - She didn't feel like, like, secure enough with me or something? 1579 01:19:19,970 --> 01:19:21,304 I mean, I don't know. - I don't know. 1580 01:19:21,304 --> 01:19:23,765 - Okay, let me-- Can I talk-- Can I talk to her for a second? 1581 01:19:23,765 --> 01:19:24,849 - Yeah. Well-- 1582 01:19:26,560 --> 01:19:29,145 ♪ pensive music playing ♪ 1583 01:19:31,648 --> 01:19:33,567 [ringback tone] 1584 01:19:36,027 --> 01:19:37,737 AUTOMATED VOICEMAIL MESSAGE: ...is not available. 1585 01:19:37,737 --> 01:19:40,031 At the tone, please record your message. 1586 01:19:40,615 --> 01:19:41,825 [phone beeps] 1587 01:19:41,825 --> 01:19:44,661 MORGAN [on phone]: I honestly don't feel like attending this event. 1588 01:19:44,661 --> 01:19:48,248 What do I have in common with these people anymore? 1589 01:19:48,248 --> 01:19:51,167 Absolutely fucking nothing. 1590 01:19:53,169 --> 01:19:55,839 Do I have any of the same values? 1591 01:19:55,839 --> 01:19:57,757 We used to look up to the same accomplishments, 1592 01:19:57,757 --> 01:20:01,094 like, "Oh, my God, she's a brand ambassador for X, Y, Z." 1593 01:20:01,928 --> 01:20:03,763 Maybe we live in a time period where I can be 1594 01:20:03,763 --> 01:20:06,808 a brand ambassador for something, but am I? 1595 01:20:07,225 --> 01:20:11,021 No, I'm not. It's not anywhere in my life where I want to be. 1596 01:20:13,523 --> 01:20:17,903 What am I these days? I'm a transsexual call girl. 1597 01:20:20,280 --> 01:20:21,781 PHOTOGRAPHER: Yeah, I like that. Good. 1598 01:20:22,782 --> 01:20:23,783 Very nice. 1599 01:20:24,451 --> 01:20:27,495 [indistinct shouting] 1600 01:20:27,495 --> 01:20:29,247 KELLY: It's all very mythological. 1601 01:20:30,582 --> 01:20:35,170 The concept of celebrities, the family, beautiful people, the freaks. 1602 01:20:35,170 --> 01:20:38,340 The one who wins, one who lose. One who came from nowhere. 1603 01:20:40,050 --> 01:20:41,051 The one who died, 1604 01:20:41,051 --> 01:20:43,178 the one who was so rich, they had everything and lost it all. 1605 01:20:43,178 --> 01:20:45,805 [indistinct chatter] 1606 01:20:47,599 --> 01:20:48,767 These are all stories 1607 01:20:48,767 --> 01:20:51,228 and these are the people who want to be the stars of the stories. 1608 01:20:51,228 --> 01:20:53,104 And in order to be the stars of the story, 1609 01:20:53,104 --> 01:20:54,189 you need a storybook. 1610 01:20:54,189 --> 01:20:56,107 And then you need somebody to read the book 1611 01:20:56,107 --> 01:20:57,943 and then somebody to build the amusement park about it. 1612 01:20:57,943 --> 01:20:59,527 And that's how it fucking goes. 1613 01:21:00,070 --> 01:21:02,239 So, I guess you need to decide, 1614 01:21:02,239 --> 01:21:05,325 do you want to be the consumer, the consumed or the creator? 1615 01:21:05,325 --> 01:21:07,827 'Cause those, those are the three lanes. 1616 01:21:10,789 --> 01:21:12,791 MORGAN: We think we're in control. 1617 01:21:12,791 --> 01:21:15,043 But these narratives are pre-written. 1618 01:21:16,461 --> 01:21:19,339 These stories create our reality. 1619 01:21:20,465 --> 01:21:23,426 I know the way out. I know the truth. 1620 01:21:25,971 --> 01:21:29,015 Our differences make us divine. 1621 01:21:29,975 --> 01:21:35,063 And maybe that's what makes difference so terrifying. 1622 01:21:36,940 --> 01:21:40,026 I will write my story and make it trip. 1623 01:21:40,777 --> 01:21:43,321 There, I am divine. 1624 01:21:44,990 --> 01:21:49,703 I will create my own American divinity. 1625 01:21:56,167 --> 01:21:59,921 ♪ Rich Girl by Nina Simone playing ♪ 1626 01:22:02,048 --> 01:22:05,427 ♪ 1627 01:22:07,470 --> 01:22:09,097 ♪ There's a rich girl ♪ 1628 01:22:09,097 --> 01:22:13,351 ♪ You know you've gone too far and you know it don't matter anyway ♪ 1629 01:22:14,019 --> 01:22:19,691 ♪ You can rely on your old man's money, you can rely on your old man's money ♪ 1630 01:22:19,691 --> 01:22:22,819 ♪ Don't you bitch, girl, and you've gone too far ♪ 1631 01:22:22,819 --> 01:22:25,614 ♪ And you know it don't matter anyway ♪ 1632 01:22:26,323 --> 01:22:30,911 ♪ Money, money won't get you too far, get you too far ♪ 1633 01:22:31,494 --> 01:22:37,167 ♪ Don't you know, don't you know ♪ 1634 01:22:38,084 --> 01:22:44,049 ♪ That it's wrong to take what is given you ♪ 1635 01:22:44,174 --> 01:22:49,596 ♪ So far gone on your own ♪ 1636 01:22:50,305 --> 01:22:53,850 ♪ And you can get along, but you gotta be strong ♪ 1637 01:22:53,892 --> 01:22:56,937 ♪ You can never be strong ♪ 1638 01:22:56,978 --> 01:22:58,063 ♪ There's a rich girl ♪ 1639 01:22:58,063 --> 01:23:02,901 ♪ You know you've gone too far and you know it don't matter anyway ♪ 1640 01:23:02,943 --> 01:23:05,987 ♪ Hey, you can rely on your old man's money ♪ 1641 01:23:05,987 --> 01:23:09,032 ♪ You can rely on your old man's money ♪ 1642 01:23:09,032 --> 01:23:12,077 ♪ It's a bitch, girl, you know you've gone too far ♪ 1643 01:23:12,118 --> 01:23:14,996 ♪ And you know it don't matter anyway ♪ 1644 01:23:15,455 --> 01:23:20,085 ♪ Money, money won't get you too far, get you too far ♪ 1645 01:23:20,919 --> 01:23:25,715 ♪ High and dry, have a little rain ♪ 1646 01:23:26,550 --> 01:23:29,678 ♪ It's so easy ♪ 1647 01:23:30,011 --> 01:23:32,931 ♪ To hurt others when you can't feel pain ♪ 1648 01:23:32,973 --> 01:23:38,520 ♪ So far gone on your own ♪