1 00:00:02,962 --> 00:00:05,256 * * 2 00:00:48,508 --> 00:00:51,511 So, okay. Let's go. Is it blue or pink? 3 00:00:53,054 --> 00:00:54,847 -Oh, my God! -(screams) 4 00:00:54,889 --> 00:00:56,265 It's a girl! 5 00:00:56,307 --> 00:00:58,017 Are you for real?! 6 00:00:58,059 --> 00:00:59,936 Oh, my God! 7 00:00:59,977 --> 00:01:02,647 Oh, my God! It's a girl! 8 00:01:02,688 --> 00:01:04,857 (man whoops) 9 00:01:04,899 --> 00:01:07,318 WOMAN: My God! 10 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:08,903 MAN: I can't believe it. 11 00:01:08,945 --> 00:01:12,073 (indistinct) Is it a girl? 12 00:01:12,115 --> 00:01:14,784 -It's a girl. (laughs) -(screams) 13 00:01:14,826 --> 00:01:16,953 -("Be My Baby" playing) -(people cheering) 14 00:01:16,994 --> 00:01:19,330 GROUP: Three, two, one. 15 00:01:19,372 --> 00:01:21,040 (cheering, screaming) 16 00:01:21,082 --> 00:01:22,834 * I needed you so * 17 00:01:24,001 --> 00:01:25,128 (cheering) 18 00:01:25,169 --> 00:01:27,046 * And if I had the chance * 19 00:01:27,088 --> 00:01:29,132 * I'd never let you go * 20 00:01:29,173 --> 00:01:32,135 (cheering) 21 00:01:32,176 --> 00:01:35,388 -(cheering) -* So won't you say you love me? * 22 00:01:35,430 --> 00:01:37,932 * I'll make you so proud of me * 23 00:01:37,974 --> 00:01:39,308 (cheering, screaming) 24 00:01:39,350 --> 00:01:41,519 * We'll make them turn their heads * 25 00:01:41,561 --> 00:01:43,146 (cheering) 26 00:01:43,187 --> 00:01:44,689 -* Every place we go * -(cheering) 27 00:01:44,731 --> 00:01:46,649 * So won't you please * 28 00:01:46,691 --> 00:01:48,651 * Be my, be my baby * 29 00:01:48,693 --> 00:01:50,194 * Be my little baby * 30 00:01:50,236 --> 00:01:51,821 * My one and only baby * 31 00:01:51,863 --> 00:01:54,532 -(cheering) -* Say you'll be my darlin' * 32 00:01:54,574 --> 00:01:56,367 -* Be my, be my baby * -(cheering) 33 00:01:56,409 --> 00:01:58,327 * Be my baby now * 34 00:01:58,369 --> 00:02:01,539 -(cheering) -* Whoa-oh-oh-oh-oh * 35 00:02:01,581 --> 00:02:02,540 (yells wildly) 36 00:02:02,582 --> 00:02:05,793 Yeah! Yeah! 37 00:02:05,835 --> 00:02:07,879 (engine revving) 38 00:02:17,930 --> 00:02:20,224 (cheering) 39 00:02:21,559 --> 00:02:23,019 (song pauses) 40 00:02:23,061 --> 00:02:25,354 -* Be my, be my baby * -(cheering) 41 00:02:25,396 --> 00:02:27,690 * Be my little baby * 42 00:02:27,732 --> 00:02:29,859 * My one and only baby * 43 00:02:29,901 --> 00:02:30,985 * Say you'll be my darlin' * 44 00:02:31,027 --> 00:02:33,154 * Be my, be my baby * 45 00:02:33,196 --> 00:02:35,948 -* Be my baby now * -(cheering) 46 00:02:35,990 --> 00:02:37,950 * Whoa-oh-oh-oh. * 47 00:02:37,992 --> 00:02:40,286 * * 48 00:02:51,297 --> 00:02:53,591 (song ends) 49 00:02:58,262 --> 00:03:00,473 * * 50 00:03:02,850 --> 00:03:05,728 SEAN SAIFA WALL: We live in a society that's so binary. 51 00:03:05,770 --> 00:03:09,982 And so, for me as an intersex person, where do I fit? 52 00:03:10,024 --> 00:03:11,442 Where do I belong? 53 00:03:14,404 --> 00:03:16,739 ALICIA ROTH WEIGEL: I was born intersex, 54 00:03:16,781 --> 00:03:18,741 between the two sexes. 55 00:03:18,783 --> 00:03:21,953 I have physical and anatomical traits 56 00:03:21,994 --> 00:03:26,457 that don't fall neatly into that male/female box 57 00:03:26,499 --> 00:03:29,085 that birth certificates would make you think 58 00:03:29,127 --> 00:03:31,587 is how the world is. 59 00:03:31,629 --> 00:03:34,257 You feel so alone and isolated 60 00:03:34,298 --> 00:03:37,510 and like your body is a problem. 61 00:03:39,971 --> 00:03:41,931 RIVER GALLO: There's this connotation of 62 00:03:41,973 --> 00:03:43,808 something that's ugly. 63 00:03:43,850 --> 00:03:46,394 That it's, like, gross. 64 00:03:46,436 --> 00:03:49,981 Or, like, something that is monstrous. 65 00:03:54,026 --> 00:03:56,612 Actually, our very existence proves 66 00:03:56,654 --> 00:03:59,866 that there is no pure male and female. 67 00:04:22,388 --> 00:04:23,639 -Ah. -What's up? Hi. 68 00:04:23,681 --> 00:04:26,309 -You look so beautiful. -Ah. Hi. 69 00:04:26,350 --> 00:04:28,311 -Thank you. So do you. -SAIFA: Wow. 70 00:04:28,352 --> 00:04:29,979 ALICIA: I do not. 71 00:04:32,023 --> 00:04:33,983 -(Alicia sighs) -Yeah. 72 00:04:34,692 --> 00:04:36,110 -You look great. -Thank you. 73 00:04:36,152 --> 00:04:37,612 (laughter) 74 00:04:38,863 --> 00:04:41,157 JULIE COHEN: I did just want to start off asking 75 00:04:41,199 --> 00:04:43,242 the three of you how you feel, like, 76 00:04:43,284 --> 00:04:46,704 intersex people have been depicted. 77 00:04:46,746 --> 00:04:48,706 The way I've seen it, it's usually, like, 78 00:04:48,748 --> 00:04:50,500 -really sensationalized. -Yeah. 79 00:04:50,541 --> 00:04:54,170 It's like, "Oh. They have-- This person has both." 80 00:04:54,212 --> 00:04:55,421 -You know? -ALICIA: Yeah, yeah. 81 00:04:55,463 --> 00:04:58,716 It's just a complete misunderstanding 82 00:04:58,758 --> 00:05:00,718 of, like, our lives and experiences. 83 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,429 You know, I'm lately even thinking, like-- 84 00:05:03,471 --> 00:05:04,972 talking about representation-- 85 00:05:05,014 --> 00:05:09,519 I would say the biggest thing is the lack of it. 86 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,188 -ALICIA: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. -The just zero-ness of it. 87 00:05:12,230 --> 00:05:13,898 No one even knows what intersex means. 88 00:05:13,940 --> 00:05:18,569 And people fear what they don't know and understand. 89 00:05:18,611 --> 00:05:20,029 When I'm dating, it's always like, 90 00:05:20,071 --> 00:05:22,365 "When can I tell someone?" 91 00:05:22,407 --> 00:05:24,158 ("Call Me Maybe" by Boyce Avenue playing) 92 00:05:28,579 --> 00:05:30,706 * I threw a wish in the well * 93 00:05:30,748 --> 00:05:33,126 * Don't ask me, I'll never tell... * 94 00:05:33,167 --> 00:05:35,461 Want to come with Mommy? 95 00:05:35,503 --> 00:05:37,422 * But now you're in my way... * 96 00:05:37,463 --> 00:05:39,048 (Alicia grunts playfully) 97 00:05:40,258 --> 00:05:41,801 Good girl. 98 00:05:41,843 --> 00:05:45,805 Yeah, Mommy's gonna do some swiping, okay? 99 00:05:45,847 --> 00:05:47,890 All right? 100 00:05:47,932 --> 00:05:50,435 No. (chuckles) 101 00:05:51,769 --> 00:05:52,979 No. 102 00:05:53,020 --> 00:05:54,397 (grunts) 103 00:05:54,439 --> 00:05:56,190 * Where you think you're going, baby... * 104 00:05:56,232 --> 00:05:58,109 Oh, I matched. 105 00:05:58,151 --> 00:06:00,445 No. No. 106 00:06:00,486 --> 00:06:02,864 Ooh, he's kind of cute. 107 00:06:02,905 --> 00:06:04,615 Dude-bro. 108 00:06:04,657 --> 00:06:05,908 No. 109 00:06:05,950 --> 00:06:08,035 Ooh, this guy has macaroons in the background. 110 00:06:08,077 --> 00:06:09,287 I like macaroons. 111 00:06:09,328 --> 00:06:11,914 Cute dog, too old. 112 00:06:11,956 --> 00:06:14,584 Oh, my God. He says, "Name is Josh. 113 00:06:14,625 --> 00:06:17,336 Trump 2020. No haters." 114 00:06:17,378 --> 00:06:18,755 (chuckles) 115 00:06:18,796 --> 00:06:20,506 Nope. 116 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,428 Chiquita, baby girl, you want a treat? 117 00:06:25,470 --> 00:06:28,598 -* So call me, baby. * -(song ends) 118 00:06:28,639 --> 00:06:31,142 Dating has been tough. 119 00:06:31,184 --> 00:06:36,105 It's, like, markedly different than it was before I was, 120 00:06:36,147 --> 00:06:38,649 you know, out as being intersex. 121 00:06:38,691 --> 00:06:41,110 Before I came out on dating apps, 122 00:06:41,152 --> 00:06:42,612 I used to, like, clean up. 123 00:06:42,653 --> 00:06:44,697 Not to toot my own horn. 124 00:06:44,739 --> 00:06:46,783 My parents and doctors cautioned me about 125 00:06:46,824 --> 00:06:49,952 the fact that it would be more difficult being out and dating, 126 00:06:49,994 --> 00:06:53,039 because people don't know what "intersex" means, 127 00:06:53,081 --> 00:06:55,625 and they see the word and they think I'm walking around 128 00:06:55,666 --> 00:06:58,628 with something in my pants that I do not have. 129 00:06:58,669 --> 00:07:01,089 I have a new match. 130 00:07:01,130 --> 00:07:03,049 Oh, he's cute. 131 00:07:03,091 --> 00:07:05,218 I don't have "intersex" in my profile. 132 00:07:05,259 --> 00:07:07,887 The thing is, I feel like most dudes wouldn't even notice, 133 00:07:07,929 --> 00:07:10,681 'cause most guys just look at your picture anyway. 134 00:07:10,723 --> 00:07:13,976 And, like, I shouldn't have to... 135 00:07:14,977 --> 00:07:17,313 ...label myself in a way that makes me feel like 136 00:07:17,355 --> 00:07:19,649 I'm a poster board for something. 137 00:07:19,690 --> 00:07:23,528 Um, but for me, it's kind of like, if I don't divulge it-- 138 00:07:23,569 --> 00:07:24,987 Ooh, this guy's cute. 139 00:07:25,029 --> 00:07:27,281 If I don't divulge it-- Oh, we matched. 140 00:07:28,366 --> 00:07:31,869 Then they'll find out on their own 'cause they'll google me. 141 00:07:34,205 --> 00:07:39,210 And if someone can't handle me, then sucks for them. 142 00:07:40,878 --> 00:07:43,214 (applause) 143 00:07:49,053 --> 00:07:52,390 Madam Chairman, ladies and gentlemen. 144 00:07:52,432 --> 00:07:54,517 I gave my talk today, 145 00:07:54,559 --> 00:07:56,894 the title of "Developmental Differentiation 146 00:07:56,936 --> 00:08:00,523 of Femininity and Masculinity Compared." 147 00:08:00,565 --> 00:08:03,735 I have two slides to show you, uh, for the, uh, 148 00:08:03,776 --> 00:08:06,279 for the chromosome, if we may have them, please. 149 00:08:09,991 --> 00:08:14,328 Here's a picture of the human sex chromosomes, uh, 150 00:08:14,370 --> 00:08:18,082 which are 46 in number. 151 00:08:18,124 --> 00:08:21,878 In the sexual differentiation of the human embryo, 152 00:08:21,919 --> 00:08:23,796 the norm is ordinarily male 153 00:08:23,838 --> 00:08:27,800 when the sex chromosomes are X and Y 154 00:08:27,842 --> 00:08:30,845 and female when they are a pair of X's. 155 00:08:31,679 --> 00:08:34,474 Society generally considers that 156 00:08:34,515 --> 00:08:37,560 XY chromosomes means you're a man 157 00:08:37,602 --> 00:08:40,813 and XX means you're a woman. 158 00:08:40,855 --> 00:08:43,608 Although I was born with XY chromosomes, 159 00:08:43,649 --> 00:08:45,443 I was also born with a vagina. 160 00:08:45,485 --> 00:08:48,613 And so they assigned me "female" at birth, 161 00:08:48,654 --> 00:08:49,947 because they usually go 162 00:08:49,989 --> 00:08:51,991 based on the parts that you're born with. 163 00:08:56,913 --> 00:09:01,584 But another trait that was not visible on the outside 164 00:09:01,626 --> 00:09:05,046 was that I had internal testes. 165 00:09:05,088 --> 00:09:08,466 Um, I was not born with a womb. I was not born with ovaries. 166 00:09:08,508 --> 00:09:11,094 I was born with testes on the inside. 167 00:09:13,429 --> 00:09:17,058 The protocol was to remove those testes 168 00:09:17,100 --> 00:09:20,228 through what they call a gonadectomy, 169 00:09:20,269 --> 00:09:21,604 which, in my view, 170 00:09:21,646 --> 00:09:25,149 is a euphemistic way of saying castrating me. 171 00:09:25,191 --> 00:09:28,403 They removed my testes. That is castration. 172 00:09:29,362 --> 00:09:31,531 (laughter) 173 00:09:31,572 --> 00:09:33,825 (playful chatter) 174 00:09:36,661 --> 00:09:38,830 MONEY: Now, if you can imagine a person 175 00:09:38,871 --> 00:09:44,627 who looks like a 100% normal female when born, 176 00:09:44,669 --> 00:09:46,671 and yet this person is one who has 177 00:09:46,713 --> 00:09:49,048 no uterus from which to menstruate 178 00:09:49,090 --> 00:09:51,801 and is also lacking in tubes and ovaries, 179 00:09:51,843 --> 00:09:55,054 uh, and, paradoxically, 180 00:09:55,096 --> 00:09:58,307 has the internal organs of male structure, 181 00:09:58,349 --> 00:09:59,892 then you have the story 182 00:09:59,934 --> 00:10:03,229 of this strange partial reversal in human beings. 183 00:10:06,107 --> 00:10:08,818 SAIFA: I think for me, growing up, 184 00:10:08,860 --> 00:10:11,112 I felt like a little boy. 185 00:10:18,995 --> 00:10:20,997 And I remember my mom was just like, 186 00:10:21,038 --> 00:10:24,375 "You are not a boy. You're a girl." 187 00:10:36,054 --> 00:10:38,097 * * 188 00:10:48,066 --> 00:10:50,568 Susanne. That was my birth name. 189 00:10:50,610 --> 00:10:53,321 Baby Girl Wall. 190 00:10:56,824 --> 00:10:58,868 Here it is. 191 00:10:59,994 --> 00:11:05,708 Yeah, so right here, they had originally put an X mark. 192 00:11:05,750 --> 00:11:08,127 Uh, for sex, they had put "ambiguous," 193 00:11:08,169 --> 00:11:09,837 and then they crossed it out, 194 00:11:09,879 --> 00:11:12,298 and then they put an X for "female." 195 00:11:13,591 --> 00:11:17,887 You know, it's written here literally in black and white. 196 00:11:17,929 --> 00:11:21,224 "There is no uterus." Never was. 197 00:11:21,265 --> 00:11:23,476 "Phallus is small." 198 00:11:26,312 --> 00:11:30,233 "Recommendations: Assignment of sex as female." 199 00:11:30,274 --> 00:11:31,651 It's underlined. 200 00:11:31,692 --> 00:11:33,611 "In the interest of proper psychosexual orientation 201 00:11:33,653 --> 00:11:34,904 "of the infant 202 00:11:34,946 --> 00:11:37,573 "and in order to protect 203 00:11:37,615 --> 00:11:39,325 "the parent's emotional well-being, 204 00:11:39,367 --> 00:11:42,078 "the mother has been told that the baby is a girl 205 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,414 and will function as such." 206 00:11:45,790 --> 00:11:47,250 "Therapeutic goals. 207 00:11:47,291 --> 00:11:50,628 "Plastic repair to modify external genital 208 00:11:50,670 --> 00:11:53,840 to be consistent with female." 209 00:11:55,299 --> 00:11:57,844 That's fucked up. 210 00:12:00,346 --> 00:12:03,433 There wasn't even any thinking about it. 211 00:12:03,474 --> 00:12:05,101 It wasn't any sort of 212 00:12:05,143 --> 00:12:08,813 asking or consulting with my mom. 213 00:12:08,855 --> 00:12:10,273 It was literally like, 214 00:12:10,314 --> 00:12:13,776 "You have a child that we feel is abnormal, um, 215 00:12:13,818 --> 00:12:16,320 and this is how we can make your child normal." 216 00:12:19,323 --> 00:12:21,576 MONEY: When the, when the baby is brought in 217 00:12:21,617 --> 00:12:23,035 at the time of birth, 218 00:12:23,077 --> 00:12:26,414 it's-it's quite easy to make a-a proper diagnosis 219 00:12:26,456 --> 00:12:29,083 and to go ahead making the proper correction. 220 00:12:33,337 --> 00:12:35,339 RIVER (speaking Spanish): 221 00:12:36,883 --> 00:12:39,135 -Okay. -Baby, what is it? 222 00:12:39,177 --> 00:12:41,387 Yeah, well, just relax, baby. 223 00:12:44,140 --> 00:12:45,600 Mm. 224 00:12:47,351 --> 00:12:49,395 (softly): Okay. 225 00:12:53,441 --> 00:12:54,609 Mm-hmm. 226 00:12:56,235 --> 00:12:58,446 -RIVER: That's me, right? -Mm-hmm. 227 00:12:58,488 --> 00:12:59,739 MARIBEL: Baby. 228 00:12:59,781 --> 00:13:02,533 Aw, you see. 229 00:13:02,575 --> 00:13:04,160 So cute. 230 00:13:04,202 --> 00:13:07,872 RIVER: This is my fifth birthday. 231 00:13:12,460 --> 00:13:14,545 I always liked cake. 232 00:13:23,304 --> 00:13:25,306 (both laugh) 233 00:13:26,265 --> 00:13:28,559 -MARIBEL: The Boy Scout. -Yeah, Boy Scouts. 234 00:13:29,519 --> 00:13:32,230 Wow, this is 2001. 235 00:13:37,735 --> 00:13:40,071 (sighs heavily) Wow. 236 00:13:45,868 --> 00:13:48,996 -RIVER: Yeah. It is. -It is. 237 00:13:49,038 --> 00:13:50,915 ("Born to Run" by Amy Macdonald playing) 238 00:13:50,957 --> 00:13:53,710 I was born in Hackensack, New Jersey. 239 00:13:53,751 --> 00:13:58,256 I was raised in a small town called Ridgefield Park. 240 00:13:58,297 --> 00:14:01,968 * On the day, we sweat it out on the streets * 241 00:14:02,009 --> 00:14:05,263 * Of a runaway American dream * 242 00:14:05,304 --> 00:14:09,225 * At night, we ran through mansions of glory * 243 00:14:09,267 --> 00:14:12,729 * In suicide machines... * 244 00:14:12,770 --> 00:14:15,481 RIVER: I'm a huge Bruce Springsteen fan, 245 00:14:15,523 --> 00:14:17,191 as many a Jersey girl. 246 00:14:17,233 --> 00:14:21,446 * Fuel injection and stepping out over the line... * 247 00:14:21,487 --> 00:14:27,368 My parents immigrated from El Salvador undocumented. 248 00:14:27,410 --> 00:14:30,455 They owned a restaurant, a Salvadoran restaurant. 249 00:14:30,496 --> 00:14:33,875 * We gotta get out while we're young... * 250 00:14:33,916 --> 00:14:37,587 It really helped me develop a work ethic. 251 00:14:37,628 --> 00:14:39,213 What is that phrase? 252 00:14:39,255 --> 00:14:43,134 "Strap up your bootstraps" or "buckle up your straps." 253 00:14:43,176 --> 00:14:44,177 (laughs) 254 00:14:44,218 --> 00:14:46,429 Pull myself up from my bootstraps. 255 00:14:46,471 --> 00:14:48,139 * Whoa... * 256 00:14:48,181 --> 00:14:50,808 And that is where I grew up, in this blue house. 257 00:14:50,850 --> 00:14:53,770 My dad, my mom, my sister and I, 258 00:14:53,811 --> 00:14:58,274 we shared a bedroom until I was like nine or ten. 259 00:14:58,316 --> 00:15:00,777 * But till then, tramps like us * 260 00:15:00,818 --> 00:15:04,739 * Baby, we were born to run... * 261 00:15:04,781 --> 00:15:06,115 So, I grew up thinking 262 00:15:06,157 --> 00:15:07,617 I was just a normal boy, 263 00:15:07,658 --> 00:15:09,952 but at the same time, if I'm to be honest, 264 00:15:09,994 --> 00:15:13,081 I think I always felt, like, different. 265 00:15:13,122 --> 00:15:16,584 Like, I remember secretly putting on my mom's makeup 266 00:15:16,626 --> 00:15:18,336 or, like, you know, 267 00:15:18,378 --> 00:15:21,172 trying on her clothes when, you know, no one was around. 268 00:15:21,214 --> 00:15:23,466 You know, all those, like, things that, like, 269 00:15:23,508 --> 00:15:28,429 a lot of queer, trans or nonbinary people experience. 270 00:15:28,471 --> 00:15:30,848 But physiologically, I always thought, like, I was-- 271 00:15:30,890 --> 00:15:32,225 there was nothing wrong with me. 272 00:15:32,266 --> 00:15:34,435 -Stop! Don't record! -MAN: I'm not recording. 273 00:15:34,477 --> 00:15:36,145 -Then how come the red light is on? -The red light is on. 274 00:15:36,187 --> 00:15:38,022 MAN: Shit. All right. 275 00:15:38,064 --> 00:15:39,524 And one, two... 276 00:15:39,565 --> 00:15:40,983 RIVER: When I was 12, 277 00:15:41,025 --> 00:15:42,610 I had a doctor's appointment. 278 00:15:42,652 --> 00:15:45,863 It was just, like, uh, allergies or something. 279 00:15:45,905 --> 00:15:48,241 My pediatrician asked my mom, 280 00:15:48,282 --> 00:15:50,159 "Oh, when are you going to tell him?" 281 00:15:50,201 --> 00:15:52,954 And then she was like, "Oh, we're gonna tell him soon." 282 00:15:52,995 --> 00:15:54,372 I was like, "I'm right here. 283 00:15:54,414 --> 00:15:57,625 Like, what are you guys talking about?" 284 00:15:57,667 --> 00:15:59,001 A month later, 285 00:15:59,043 --> 00:16:01,045 we all drove to the pediatrician together, 286 00:16:01,087 --> 00:16:04,340 and, um... 287 00:16:04,382 --> 00:16:07,593 then I went in by myself, and I-- 288 00:16:07,635 --> 00:16:10,847 my doctor told me that I was born without testicles. 289 00:16:10,888 --> 00:16:14,559 I knew that I had a penis, and I knew that I had a scrotum, 290 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:16,144 and I didn't know that there was something 291 00:16:16,185 --> 00:16:18,146 supposed to be in that scrotum. 292 00:16:18,187 --> 00:16:20,481 Then my doctor pretty much explained how, eventually, 293 00:16:20,523 --> 00:16:25,695 I would have a surgery to implant prosthetic testicles. 294 00:16:25,737 --> 00:16:28,322 The idea was, since I had a penis, to-- 295 00:16:28,364 --> 00:16:34,287 if I had testicles, I would fully look, um, "male" 296 00:16:34,328 --> 00:16:37,123 and my life would be-- I'd be fixed. 297 00:16:37,165 --> 00:16:39,417 (singer vocalizing) 298 00:16:43,046 --> 00:16:44,422 (song ends) 299 00:16:44,464 --> 00:16:46,382 BEN SHAPIRO: Here's the, here's the deal. 300 00:16:46,424 --> 00:16:48,134 For all of human history, there was an objective standard 301 00:16:48,176 --> 00:16:49,719 between male and female. 302 00:16:49,761 --> 00:16:51,679 It was out of simply looking at people's genitals 303 00:16:51,721 --> 00:16:53,514 and assessing them based on their outward appearance. 304 00:16:53,556 --> 00:16:55,391 Right? Which is still true for nearly all human beings 305 00:16:55,433 --> 00:16:57,060 on planet Earth at all times. 306 00:16:57,101 --> 00:16:59,479 That is not a myth. That's called science. 307 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:02,523 Fifty-six. That's how many options you now have 308 00:17:02,565 --> 00:17:05,818 to describe your gender on Facebook. 309 00:17:05,860 --> 00:17:08,529 The social networking site is adding options that include 310 00:17:08,571 --> 00:17:13,367 transgender, intersex, whatever that is. (scoffs) 311 00:17:13,409 --> 00:17:17,371 The most inclusive definition of "intersex" is 312 00:17:17,413 --> 00:17:20,958 "Any variation in a person's sex traits 313 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:22,502 "with which they're either born 314 00:17:22,543 --> 00:17:25,421 or they develop naturally during puberty." 315 00:17:26,214 --> 00:17:28,466 The existence of intersex traits 316 00:17:28,508 --> 00:17:32,011 shows us not only does that middle space exist 317 00:17:32,053 --> 00:17:34,097 between male and female 318 00:17:34,138 --> 00:17:36,224 but that there also is a lot of variation 319 00:17:36,265 --> 00:17:38,976 within those categories of male and female. 320 00:17:39,018 --> 00:17:40,353 It is possible to be 321 00:17:40,395 --> 00:17:43,106 a quote-unquote "biological female" 322 00:17:43,147 --> 00:17:44,440 and have testes. 323 00:17:44,482 --> 00:17:48,027 It is possible to be a biological male 324 00:17:48,069 --> 00:17:49,612 and have a uterus. 325 00:17:51,864 --> 00:17:53,991 I'm a full-blown hermaphrodite. 326 00:17:54,033 --> 00:17:55,993 Put that on your banner. 327 00:17:56,035 --> 00:17:59,497 * Mr. Houdini, you're a freak show. * 328 00:18:02,166 --> 00:18:03,793 DALKE: One of the biggest problems with 329 00:18:03,835 --> 00:18:06,087 terms like "hermaphrodite" is that they imply 330 00:18:06,129 --> 00:18:07,630 that people are born with 331 00:18:07,672 --> 00:18:11,050 a full set of male and female sex organs. 332 00:18:11,092 --> 00:18:12,468 It's not possible actually 333 00:18:12,510 --> 00:18:15,304 for a person to really have both. 334 00:18:16,347 --> 00:18:18,891 Because there's such a wide range of variations 335 00:18:18,933 --> 00:18:20,435 that people can have, 336 00:18:20,476 --> 00:18:23,271 there are really wide-ranging implications 337 00:18:23,312 --> 00:18:25,732 for that person's physical health. 338 00:18:25,773 --> 00:18:30,278 Unfortunately, the way that the medical community has responded 339 00:18:30,319 --> 00:18:32,989 to that complexity, historically, 340 00:18:33,030 --> 00:18:37,326 is to focus on managing someone's genital appearance 341 00:18:37,368 --> 00:18:38,828 and their gender identity. 342 00:18:38,870 --> 00:18:42,331 For some people, depending on their variation, 343 00:18:42,373 --> 00:18:43,833 a person may need 344 00:18:43,875 --> 00:18:47,795 really specific and urgent medical or surgical care, 345 00:18:47,837 --> 00:18:52,633 but in most cases, surgery is not medically necessary. 346 00:18:59,891 --> 00:19:01,184 (Saifa clears throat) 347 00:19:01,225 --> 00:19:02,685 SAIFA: "13-year-old Black female 348 00:19:02,727 --> 00:19:05,063 "with a history of testicular feminization 349 00:19:05,104 --> 00:19:07,857 who is noted to have bilateral gonads." 350 00:19:09,567 --> 00:19:13,029 "Patient never had her menses." 351 00:19:13,071 --> 00:19:16,032 I clearly had a very intersex body. 352 00:19:16,074 --> 00:19:18,034 Whereas in the original birth record, 353 00:19:18,076 --> 00:19:20,620 they had put, um, "a small phallus." 354 00:19:20,661 --> 00:19:23,206 And then by the time I was 13, it was like-- 355 00:19:23,247 --> 00:19:25,875 you know, it says right here. 356 00:19:25,917 --> 00:19:28,544 "A large clitoris." 357 00:19:28,586 --> 00:19:32,548 So, already everything was sort of, like, aligning 358 00:19:32,590 --> 00:19:37,428 to sort of reinforce this female gender identity. 359 00:19:40,807 --> 00:19:44,644 So my mom consented to the gonadectomy. 360 00:19:46,437 --> 00:19:48,606 The doctor told my mom, 361 00:19:48,648 --> 00:19:50,900 "These gonads, they have to be removed. 362 00:19:50,942 --> 00:19:52,402 They're-they're cancerous." 363 00:19:52,443 --> 00:19:55,738 And my mom heard "cancer," and she was like, 364 00:19:55,780 --> 00:19:57,407 "Must be done." 365 00:19:57,448 --> 00:20:00,410 Later, I found that they weren't cancerous. 366 00:20:00,451 --> 00:20:02,370 They weren't. 367 00:20:02,412 --> 00:20:05,206 I was subjected to the gonadectomy, 368 00:20:05,248 --> 00:20:07,959 which was a removal of my testes. 369 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,754 Which left me with two scars, bilateral scars on my belly. 370 00:20:12,714 --> 00:20:16,342 Yeah, I just remember, like, a lot of pain. 371 00:20:16,384 --> 00:20:19,762 It was just, like, a lot of pain. 372 00:20:24,100 --> 00:20:26,144 After surgery, 373 00:20:26,185 --> 00:20:31,315 the doctor came into my room followed by these residents. 374 00:20:32,483 --> 00:20:34,736 No one wanted to know my name. 375 00:20:34,777 --> 00:20:36,946 It was just like, literally, you know, 376 00:20:36,988 --> 00:20:39,449 "Pull down, you know, lift up your gown." 377 00:20:39,490 --> 00:20:43,578 And, you know, here I am, 13 years old, um, 378 00:20:43,619 --> 00:20:46,789 naked, you know, in front of these residents, 379 00:20:46,831 --> 00:20:49,667 and they're just totally looking at me. 380 00:20:51,919 --> 00:20:54,464 MONEY: The appropriate surgical corrections are undertaken, 381 00:20:54,505 --> 00:20:55,673 and at teen age, 382 00:20:55,715 --> 00:20:58,676 the congruous hormonal therapy is given. 383 00:20:58,718 --> 00:21:01,179 And the result is not by any means as dire 384 00:21:01,220 --> 00:21:02,555 as one may expect. 385 00:21:03,681 --> 00:21:06,100 SAIFA: I was a boy in all this, like-- 386 00:21:06,142 --> 00:21:09,062 all these dresses and stuff. 387 00:21:09,103 --> 00:21:11,355 When they removed my testicles, 388 00:21:11,397 --> 00:21:14,484 they changed the course of my life. 389 00:21:14,525 --> 00:21:18,071 I did not consent to that surgery. 390 00:21:21,532 --> 00:21:23,743 ALICIA: I remember 391 00:21:23,785 --> 00:21:26,579 when my friends first started getting their period 392 00:21:26,621 --> 00:21:28,790 and they would start asking me for tampons. 393 00:21:28,831 --> 00:21:32,001 And I would never need a tampon because I don't get my period. 394 00:21:32,043 --> 00:21:33,836 I don't have a uterus. I don't have ovaries. 395 00:21:33,878 --> 00:21:36,839 There would be nowhere for a period to come from. 396 00:21:36,881 --> 00:21:39,926 And yet I started carrying around tampons 397 00:21:39,967 --> 00:21:43,012 because I had to keep up this facade. 398 00:21:43,054 --> 00:21:44,722 I would have to... 399 00:21:44,764 --> 00:21:48,518 take these pills or use, like, dilators. 400 00:21:48,559 --> 00:21:51,938 They're, like, these, like, medical-produced dildos, 401 00:21:51,979 --> 00:21:58,319 because they want to make sure that your vagina is big enough 402 00:21:58,361 --> 00:22:00,279 to have penetrative sex with a man. 403 00:22:00,321 --> 00:22:01,739 Like, I couldn't even, like, 404 00:22:01,781 --> 00:22:03,449 share that experience, like, with my parents. 405 00:22:03,491 --> 00:22:05,201 Like, the doctors told me to do that. 406 00:22:05,243 --> 00:22:08,121 And I was like 11 or 12, 407 00:22:08,162 --> 00:22:13,668 like, using these dildos, like, alone in a closet in my house. 408 00:22:14,711 --> 00:22:17,672 RIVER: I had, um, an ultrasound performed on me. 409 00:22:17,714 --> 00:22:20,508 I just remember this technician, like, just, like, 410 00:22:20,550 --> 00:22:22,927 going over the same-- 411 00:22:22,969 --> 00:22:26,556 my groin, like, over and over again 412 00:22:26,597 --> 00:22:29,559 with this, like, icy cold, like, probe and the gel. 413 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,228 And... and I just remember all these, like, students, 414 00:22:32,270 --> 00:22:35,398 like, gathered around me, like, watching. 415 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:37,358 After some time, I, like, kicked one of them, 416 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,110 and I was just like, 417 00:22:39,152 --> 00:22:43,531 "My testicles are not there. Just please leave me alone." 418 00:22:45,241 --> 00:22:49,579 I grew up with this belief that like, 419 00:22:49,620 --> 00:22:52,957 "Okay, I have this condition. 420 00:22:52,999 --> 00:22:55,877 I need to sort of keep it to myself." 421 00:22:55,918 --> 00:22:59,714 Doctors would tell my mom, "Oh, people won't understand. 422 00:22:59,756 --> 00:23:02,425 "Never talk about this with laypeople. 423 00:23:02,467 --> 00:23:04,886 Only talk about it with physicians." 424 00:23:06,304 --> 00:23:09,640 ALICIA: I had never heard the word "intersex" in my life. 425 00:23:09,682 --> 00:23:12,143 I was told that I had a problem, 426 00:23:12,185 --> 00:23:13,603 that I was being fixed 427 00:23:13,644 --> 00:23:15,646 and that I should never tell anyone about it, 428 00:23:15,688 --> 00:23:20,985 because if I did, then I would not be able to find a husband 429 00:23:21,027 --> 00:23:24,572 if they knew what I was. 430 00:23:26,324 --> 00:23:30,036 I don't think anyone explicitly told me to keep it a secret. 431 00:23:30,078 --> 00:23:31,829 However... 432 00:23:34,791 --> 00:23:36,626 ...why would anybody want to talk about 433 00:23:36,667 --> 00:23:39,712 not having testicles in high school? 434 00:23:39,754 --> 00:23:44,175 At 15 or 16, I had the surgery 435 00:23:44,217 --> 00:23:47,428 to put prosthetic testicles inside of me. 436 00:23:47,470 --> 00:23:49,764 None of my doctors said, you know, 437 00:23:49,806 --> 00:23:52,475 to have any kind of emotional or psychological support 438 00:23:52,517 --> 00:23:53,851 throughout any of it. 439 00:23:53,893 --> 00:23:56,479 I was looking at ways to cope with, um, 440 00:23:56,521 --> 00:23:57,980 just this huge secret. 441 00:23:58,022 --> 00:24:02,318 This body was a problem that needed to be fixed, 442 00:24:02,360 --> 00:24:06,280 and the fixing had to be a secret. 443 00:24:07,365 --> 00:24:10,660 ALICIA: Why does my brother not know about this? 444 00:24:10,701 --> 00:24:14,622 Why is there so much shame surrounding this 445 00:24:14,664 --> 00:24:17,834 that even within our own family we can't talk about it? 446 00:24:18,793 --> 00:24:21,713 DALKE: Secrecy has been just as big a part 447 00:24:21,754 --> 00:24:24,590 of medical treatment of intersex kids 448 00:24:24,632 --> 00:24:26,008 as the surgery has been. 449 00:24:26,050 --> 00:24:28,344 The idea being that if they knew about 450 00:24:28,386 --> 00:24:29,887 their medical or surgical history, 451 00:24:29,929 --> 00:24:34,350 then they would question their gender identity. 452 00:24:34,392 --> 00:24:38,062 Within the context of, you know, mid-century America, 453 00:24:38,104 --> 00:24:41,691 um, and a-a drive for a really binary assignment, 454 00:24:41,733 --> 00:24:46,571 that ambivalence was thought to be totally counterproductive 455 00:24:46,612 --> 00:24:48,197 to someone growing up, 456 00:24:48,239 --> 00:24:52,160 identifying as essentially straight and cisgender. 457 00:24:52,201 --> 00:24:54,078 So, in practice, 458 00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:57,540 virtually every child born with an intersex condition, 459 00:24:57,582 --> 00:25:00,710 that information was withheld for them. 460 00:25:00,752 --> 00:25:03,671 Um, in my own case, I was identified as having 461 00:25:03,713 --> 00:25:07,216 an intersex variation when I was six years old. 462 00:25:07,258 --> 00:25:09,719 My parents are both physicians, 463 00:25:09,761 --> 00:25:11,929 and everything that they read in medical textbooks 464 00:25:11,971 --> 00:25:14,557 and heard from my physicians said, 465 00:25:14,599 --> 00:25:18,102 "You should not tell her this about herself." 466 00:25:19,145 --> 00:25:21,731 COHEN: If-if you had to act out, like, 467 00:25:21,773 --> 00:25:24,525 what was the message about how open you should be 468 00:25:24,567 --> 00:25:26,277 about being intersex? 469 00:25:27,236 --> 00:25:28,571 (groans) 470 00:25:28,613 --> 00:25:31,741 Yeah. Totally. 471 00:25:33,451 --> 00:25:34,827 (laughing) 472 00:25:34,869 --> 00:25:37,205 (laughing): I'm not here. 473 00:25:38,164 --> 00:25:40,374 No, don't... (laughing) 474 00:25:41,667 --> 00:25:43,920 ("Our Lips Are Sealed" by Lionel Ziblat playing) 475 00:25:47,673 --> 00:25:50,259 * Can you hear them? * 476 00:25:50,301 --> 00:25:51,761 * They talk about us * 477 00:25:51,803 --> 00:25:53,721 * They're telling lies * 478 00:25:53,763 --> 00:25:55,515 * Well, that's no surprise * 479 00:25:55,556 --> 00:25:56,808 * Can you see them... * 480 00:25:56,849 --> 00:25:58,476 ALICIA: I was, like, tri-varsity 481 00:25:58,518 --> 00:26:00,311 and captain of different sports teams. 482 00:26:00,353 --> 00:26:04,649 And... part of that was, like, wanting to hit 483 00:26:04,690 --> 00:26:08,653 these validating factors to be worthy of-of love. 484 00:26:11,364 --> 00:26:14,033 * Yeah, our lips are sealed * 485 00:26:14,992 --> 00:26:17,703 * Well, we've all thought... * 486 00:26:17,745 --> 00:26:19,038 RIVER: Achievement meant to me 487 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,125 a way of trying to define myself 488 00:26:22,166 --> 00:26:27,296 outside of this strange, obscure secret about my body. 489 00:26:27,338 --> 00:26:30,216 * Yeah, our lips are sealed... * 490 00:26:30,258 --> 00:26:31,926 SAIFA: Ever since I was younger, like, 491 00:26:31,968 --> 00:26:34,053 I really wanted something more. 492 00:26:34,095 --> 00:26:37,807 I'm an ambitious person for sure. 493 00:26:40,017 --> 00:26:42,353 * Our lips are sealed * 494 00:26:43,354 --> 00:26:45,982 * Our lips are sealed * 495 00:26:46,858 --> 00:26:49,110 -* Our lips are sealed. * -(song fades) 496 00:26:59,829 --> 00:27:01,789 SAIFA: There's a culture of shame and stigma 497 00:27:01,831 --> 00:27:05,668 and silence that surround intersex people. 498 00:27:05,710 --> 00:27:07,086 It's not just the surgeries themselves, 499 00:27:07,128 --> 00:27:10,882 but it-it's the voyeurism by doctors. 500 00:27:11,716 --> 00:27:14,343 It's the medical photography. 501 00:27:14,385 --> 00:27:18,890 This person becomes, like, a specimen. 502 00:27:22,226 --> 00:27:25,021 MONEY: Human hermaphrodites has been a field 503 00:27:25,063 --> 00:27:28,274 of my special interest over the last 11 years. 504 00:27:28,316 --> 00:27:32,695 That is, in the study of psychosexual differentiation 505 00:27:32,737 --> 00:27:35,990 in these people who are physical hermaphrodites. 506 00:27:36,032 --> 00:27:40,870 Their external genitals may tell a lie to their owner, 507 00:27:40,912 --> 00:27:42,371 as well as to other people, 508 00:27:42,413 --> 00:27:44,874 so that it's therapeutically high-highly desirable 509 00:27:44,916 --> 00:27:48,294 to have them surgically corrected at an early age. 510 00:28:01,265 --> 00:28:03,309 I-I definitely had 511 00:28:03,351 --> 00:28:06,270 some romantic encounters in high school. 512 00:28:06,312 --> 00:28:11,317 I had a boyfriend and a girlfriend. 513 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:13,778 It was really scary. 514 00:28:13,820 --> 00:28:16,030 I was afraid that they would find out 515 00:28:16,072 --> 00:28:19,117 that the testicles that I had were-were fake. 516 00:28:19,951 --> 00:28:22,954 I think, for my girlfriend, 517 00:28:22,995 --> 00:28:26,082 I think I told her that I had testicular cancer 518 00:28:26,124 --> 00:28:27,917 and that that's the reason why-- 519 00:28:27,959 --> 00:28:30,753 'cause, you know, that I, that I couldn't-- 520 00:28:30,795 --> 00:28:32,380 God, this sounds so weird-- get her pregnant, 521 00:28:32,422 --> 00:28:33,631 like, when we had sex. 522 00:28:33,673 --> 00:28:35,007 So, like, we didn't use condoms. 523 00:28:35,049 --> 00:28:36,884 But, like, that was the excuse that I gave 524 00:28:36,926 --> 00:28:38,636 because I would rather had said that 525 00:28:38,678 --> 00:28:42,181 than, like, tell her the truth that I was never born with any. 526 00:28:48,438 --> 00:28:51,274 ALICIA: I felt like the way that I would be worthy of love 527 00:28:51,315 --> 00:28:54,277 was fitting this perfect paradigm 528 00:28:54,318 --> 00:28:57,029 of what a woman is supposed to be. 529 00:28:57,864 --> 00:28:59,907 If I got serious with someone, 530 00:28:59,949 --> 00:29:02,618 I was worried that that would, like, 531 00:29:02,660 --> 00:29:04,871 ruin all that love that we had built 532 00:29:04,912 --> 00:29:07,331 for them to know who I actually was. 533 00:29:13,838 --> 00:29:16,716 SAIFA: I feel like sex and sexual relations 534 00:29:16,758 --> 00:29:19,844 just bring you right into the-the muck 535 00:29:19,886 --> 00:29:22,096 of all your vulnerability, 536 00:29:22,138 --> 00:29:25,892 all of your pain, all of your trauma. 537 00:29:25,933 --> 00:29:28,019 Like, it just drops you right in. 538 00:29:29,312 --> 00:29:35,109 I started dating this woman in my senior year of college. 539 00:29:35,151 --> 00:29:36,652 This would be the first time 540 00:29:36,694 --> 00:29:39,113 that I actually had sex with someone 541 00:29:39,155 --> 00:29:41,157 where I was completely naked, 542 00:29:41,199 --> 00:29:45,328 and I was really losing my shit. 543 00:29:45,369 --> 00:29:50,625 I wanted to experience, like, our bodies together, but... 544 00:29:52,585 --> 00:29:54,170 I just... 545 00:29:54,212 --> 00:29:56,255 I think I was just so like, 546 00:29:56,297 --> 00:29:59,467 "My body doesn't exist in the world. 547 00:29:59,509 --> 00:30:01,427 "My body is just so different 548 00:30:01,469 --> 00:30:04,847 from anything that I can comprehend." 549 00:30:04,889 --> 00:30:07,350 I think the only thing I could mutter was like, 550 00:30:07,392 --> 00:30:09,310 "I-I can't do this." 551 00:30:11,813 --> 00:30:13,689 COHEN: Were any of you told 552 00:30:13,731 --> 00:30:15,566 by family members, by doctors, 553 00:30:15,608 --> 00:30:17,235 anything about the history of 554 00:30:17,276 --> 00:30:19,404 medical treatment of intersex people? 555 00:30:19,445 --> 00:30:21,656 -No. -ALICIA: What? No. 556 00:30:21,697 --> 00:30:23,783 -No. -No. -(chuckles) 557 00:30:23,825 --> 00:30:25,451 ALICIA: No. 558 00:30:25,493 --> 00:30:28,913 And that's the common thread with all intersex people is 559 00:30:28,955 --> 00:30:32,166 all the things that we learn about the community, 560 00:30:32,208 --> 00:30:34,544 about our variations, about anything, 561 00:30:34,585 --> 00:30:37,380 it's all, like, a self-journey. 562 00:30:37,422 --> 00:30:39,048 SAIFA: Right. 563 00:30:39,090 --> 00:30:41,551 You know, some people don't even find each other like we did, 564 00:30:41,592 --> 00:30:45,096 and, for me, I've learned so much about myself 565 00:30:45,138 --> 00:30:47,223 just through other intersex people. 566 00:30:47,265 --> 00:30:48,641 Yeah. 567 00:30:48,683 --> 00:30:52,061 You know, there are anywhere from 35 to 40 variations, 568 00:30:52,103 --> 00:30:53,771 and I think, you know, 569 00:30:53,813 --> 00:30:55,398 depending on the variation you have, 570 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,859 it's like you become an expert on your body. 571 00:30:57,900 --> 00:30:59,569 -ALICIA: Yeah. -SAIFA: You know? 572 00:30:59,610 --> 00:31:02,905 Whenever I've met people with AIS, 573 00:31:02,947 --> 00:31:05,908 it's just wild, like-- it's just, like, this-- 574 00:31:05,950 --> 00:31:07,410 it's a script. 575 00:31:07,452 --> 00:31:09,078 Remove the testes, 576 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,707 put the child on, you know, progesterone or estrogen, 577 00:31:12,749 --> 00:31:14,375 create a vagina, 578 00:31:14,417 --> 00:31:17,795 make sure that, you know, the vagina is suitable 579 00:31:17,837 --> 00:31:19,714 for sex, you know, with your future husband. 580 00:31:19,756 --> 00:31:23,718 The treatment of intersex young people 581 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:25,344 is totally based in, like, 582 00:31:25,386 --> 00:31:31,726 this 1950s ideology of, like, creating men and women. 583 00:31:31,768 --> 00:31:33,186 ALICIA: Yeah. 584 00:31:33,227 --> 00:31:34,771 MONEY: The difference becomes apparent 585 00:31:34,812 --> 00:31:36,397 even in childhood. 586 00:31:36,439 --> 00:31:40,193 When boys are out staking territory claims, 587 00:31:40,234 --> 00:31:43,112 constructing hideouts, forts and camps, 588 00:31:43,154 --> 00:31:45,281 and fending off rival intruder gangs, 589 00:31:45,323 --> 00:31:48,868 girls are expending somewhat less energy, 590 00:31:48,910 --> 00:31:51,120 usually closer to home, 591 00:31:51,162 --> 00:31:52,955 making lairs and homes for the young 592 00:31:52,997 --> 00:31:54,999 and raising doll babies. 593 00:31:55,041 --> 00:31:57,543 ANNOUNCER: Tonight, a special report 594 00:31:57,585 --> 00:31:59,629 on the search for sexual identity. 595 00:31:59,670 --> 00:32:01,339 (applause) 596 00:32:03,216 --> 00:32:05,468 GERALDO RIVERA: Dr. John Money is a professor 597 00:32:05,510 --> 00:32:06,803 of medical psychology 598 00:32:06,844 --> 00:32:08,554 at the Johns Hopkins Medical Center. 599 00:32:08,596 --> 00:32:12,642 He's also the cofounder of the Gender Identity Clinic there. 600 00:32:12,683 --> 00:32:14,268 TOM SNYDER: This week's issue ofTime magazine 601 00:32:14,310 --> 00:32:16,270 calls my next guest, Mr. John Money, 602 00:32:16,312 --> 00:32:19,315 one of the best-known sex researchers in the country. 603 00:32:19,357 --> 00:32:22,819 KEITH SIGMUNDSON: John Money was a-a psychologist 604 00:32:22,860 --> 00:32:25,655 who had advanced ideas of sex 605 00:32:25,696 --> 00:32:29,575 and had achieved such a position of prominence. 606 00:32:29,617 --> 00:32:32,870 RICHARD SHER: We are delighted to be joined by Dr. John Money. 607 00:32:32,912 --> 00:32:34,330 He's a world-famous sexologist. 608 00:32:34,372 --> 00:32:36,833 And it is nice to have you back again, Dr. Money. 609 00:32:36,874 --> 00:32:38,501 OPRAH WINFREY: It certainly is. 610 00:32:38,543 --> 00:32:41,087 How many hermaphrodites are there born in this country? 611 00:32:41,129 --> 00:32:43,131 Nobody in the United States keeps figures on it, 612 00:32:43,172 --> 00:32:45,299 so there's no absolute certainty, but... 613 00:32:45,341 --> 00:32:47,009 WINFREY: Why? I would think we would keep figures. 614 00:32:47,051 --> 00:32:48,428 We just-- we just don't? 615 00:32:48,469 --> 00:32:50,555 I would have thought so, too, but we don't. 616 00:32:50,596 --> 00:32:53,558 DALKE: It's pretty unusual in the history of medicine 617 00:32:53,599 --> 00:32:58,980 for one person to be synonymous with a revolution 618 00:32:59,021 --> 00:33:02,316 in the treatment of a specific condition, 619 00:33:02,358 --> 00:33:05,486 and Dr. Money was single-handedly responsible 620 00:33:05,528 --> 00:33:10,199 for creating a new treatment paradigm for intersex people. 621 00:33:10,241 --> 00:33:12,535 It was really all him. 622 00:33:12,577 --> 00:33:14,871 SAIFA: I didn't know about Dr. Money 623 00:33:14,912 --> 00:33:19,375 until I was in my mid-20s. 624 00:33:19,417 --> 00:33:23,629 But growing up, I didn't really associate any of my treatment 625 00:33:23,671 --> 00:33:26,632 or any of the stuff that I was learning about with Dr. Money. 626 00:33:26,674 --> 00:33:28,634 ALICIA: Yeah, I'm-I'm more familiar 627 00:33:28,676 --> 00:33:31,304 with modern-day doctors. 628 00:33:31,345 --> 00:33:34,557 COHEN: So I'm gonna show you some footage about Dr. Money 629 00:33:34,599 --> 00:33:37,894 and his most famous patient, David Reimer. 630 00:33:37,935 --> 00:33:40,480 Um, David was not intersex, 631 00:33:40,521 --> 00:33:44,192 but his case with Dr. Money had so much influence 632 00:33:44,233 --> 00:33:47,236 on the way intersex people have been treated. 633 00:33:48,196 --> 00:33:49,572 NEWSMAN (over computer): Could a normal boy, 634 00:33:49,614 --> 00:33:51,282 if it was thought to be in his best interest, 635 00:33:51,324 --> 00:33:53,743 be brought up as a girl? 636 00:33:53,785 --> 00:33:57,121 MONEY: I have some very fascinating cases 637 00:33:57,163 --> 00:34:00,083 that have taught me a lot. 638 00:34:00,124 --> 00:34:02,418 Because they were born with an error 639 00:34:02,460 --> 00:34:05,380 or a birth defect of the sex organs, 640 00:34:05,421 --> 00:34:10,385 there was a quite natural and legitimate uncertainty 641 00:34:10,426 --> 00:34:13,304 as to which way the birth certificate should be signed. 642 00:34:13,346 --> 00:34:15,306 NEWSMAN: John Money came to believe that between birth 643 00:34:15,348 --> 00:34:17,266 and the age of two, 644 00:34:17,308 --> 00:34:19,394 a child could learn to be either sex 645 00:34:19,435 --> 00:34:22,397 before it became fixed in its sexual identity. 646 00:34:22,438 --> 00:34:25,650 Science has debated sexual identity for years 647 00:34:25,691 --> 00:34:28,319 and referred increasingly to one particular case. 648 00:34:28,361 --> 00:34:31,030 He was born a boy, but as a baby, 649 00:34:31,072 --> 00:34:32,949 he became the subject of an experiment 650 00:34:32,990 --> 00:34:35,451 aimed at turning him into a girl. 651 00:34:35,493 --> 00:34:38,955 WINFREY: In 1965, Janet Reimer became the proud mother 652 00:34:38,996 --> 00:34:40,498 of identical twins. 653 00:34:40,540 --> 00:34:44,335 The baby boys were strong, healthy and happy. 654 00:34:44,377 --> 00:34:46,587 At eight months, Janet took them to the doctor 655 00:34:46,629 --> 00:34:48,089 to be circumcised. 656 00:34:48,131 --> 00:34:51,259 JANET REIMER: The doctor called us into his office, 657 00:34:51,300 --> 00:34:54,804 and he said, "There's been a little mistake." 658 00:34:54,846 --> 00:35:00,518 And then he said that, uh... 659 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,438 David's penis had been burnt. 660 00:35:03,479 --> 00:35:06,733 They were using a cauterizing machine. 661 00:35:06,774 --> 00:35:09,277 -An electric current that cuts tissue... -Mm-hmm. That's it. 662 00:35:09,318 --> 00:35:11,195 ...and it was supposed to cut the foreskin. 663 00:35:11,237 --> 00:35:13,531 Yes, and something happened. 664 00:35:13,573 --> 00:35:16,200 Too much current came through. 665 00:35:16,242 --> 00:35:18,411 It cut the whole penis off. 666 00:35:18,453 --> 00:35:22,999 At the time, I guess the idea of reconstructing a penis... 667 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,752 It was impossible at that time. 668 00:35:25,793 --> 00:35:30,882 My first words were, "My God, what are we going to do?" 669 00:35:30,923 --> 00:35:33,593 The gender role and the psychosexual identity 670 00:35:33,634 --> 00:35:36,637 agree with the sex of assignment and rearing. 671 00:35:36,679 --> 00:35:41,225 We happened to be watching that show, and I'd heard Dr. Money. 672 00:35:41,267 --> 00:35:44,687 And he was very charismatic, 673 00:35:44,729 --> 00:35:47,857 very dignified in a lot-- 674 00:35:47,899 --> 00:35:51,360 He seemed like a man that really knew where it's at. 675 00:35:51,402 --> 00:35:54,697 The appropriate surgical corrections are undertaken, 676 00:35:54,739 --> 00:35:58,701 and at teen age, the congruous hormonal therapy is given. 677 00:35:58,743 --> 00:36:00,369 And the result is not by any means 678 00:36:00,411 --> 00:36:02,038 as dire as one may expect. 679 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:06,459 I wrote him a letter, and he very promptly answered. 680 00:36:06,501 --> 00:36:09,545 He was most interested in seeing us. 681 00:36:09,587 --> 00:36:11,589 What did he say he could do? 682 00:36:11,631 --> 00:36:15,385 He said that our baby could grow up as a girl. 683 00:36:15,426 --> 00:36:16,969 KEITH MORRISON: Just like any other woman? 684 00:36:17,011 --> 00:36:18,262 JANET: Yes. 685 00:36:18,304 --> 00:36:20,598 With the help of surgery. 686 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:22,558 NEWSWOMAN: At the age of 21 months, the baby's testicles 687 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,269 were removed at Dr. Money's request. 688 00:36:25,311 --> 00:36:26,813 It was now up to the parents 689 00:36:26,854 --> 00:36:30,066 to nurture their child into a girl. 690 00:36:30,108 --> 00:36:32,402 JANET: Dr. Money suggested 691 00:36:32,443 --> 00:36:35,696 that it was my responsibility to make her feminine. 692 00:36:35,738 --> 00:36:38,783 MORRISON: The Reimers were told they must stand steadfast 693 00:36:38,825 --> 00:36:41,411 behind their decision and must not tell 694 00:36:41,452 --> 00:36:44,664 either of their twins the truth. 695 00:36:44,705 --> 00:36:46,791 JANET: Well, the first time 696 00:36:46,833 --> 00:36:50,253 I put him in a dress... 697 00:36:50,294 --> 00:36:52,296 was a real trial, 698 00:36:52,338 --> 00:36:54,590 because he tried to tear it off. 699 00:36:54,632 --> 00:36:55,800 Oh, my God. 700 00:36:55,842 --> 00:36:58,761 JANET: Oh, my God. He knows he's been a boy. 701 00:36:58,803 --> 00:37:01,931 DALKE: Once David was assigned female, 702 00:37:01,973 --> 00:37:05,768 the family was advised to move to a different place 703 00:37:05,810 --> 00:37:08,813 to keep from the twins any indication 704 00:37:08,855 --> 00:37:11,649 that there had been two boys instead of a boy and a girl. 705 00:37:11,691 --> 00:37:14,402 Neither one of the twins were ever told 706 00:37:14,444 --> 00:37:16,571 why they were going to see Dr. Money. 707 00:37:16,612 --> 00:37:18,948 NEWSWOMAN: It was a pilgrimage they would make annually 708 00:37:18,990 --> 00:37:21,117 for the next nine years. 709 00:37:21,159 --> 00:37:24,370 Johns Hopkins School of Medicine is world-famous 710 00:37:24,412 --> 00:37:26,789 for its work on sexuality disorders. 711 00:37:26,831 --> 00:37:30,043 The whole notion of sexual or gender identity 712 00:37:30,084 --> 00:37:33,838 was developed and experimented with in this institution, 713 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,550 first and foremost by Dr. John Money. 714 00:37:37,592 --> 00:37:40,386 SIGMUNDSON: For John Money and his theory, 715 00:37:40,428 --> 00:37:42,638 this became a perfect experiment. 716 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,141 You would have proof that 717 00:37:45,183 --> 00:37:48,144 indeed you could raise a boy as a girl, 718 00:37:48,186 --> 00:37:52,482 and they would be perfectly happy and successful. 719 00:37:55,735 --> 00:37:57,653 COHEN: So how did the case come to you? 720 00:37:57,695 --> 00:38:00,656 I was the head of the department of, uh, psychiatry 721 00:38:00,698 --> 00:38:04,035 for the school system in Winnipeg, Canada. 722 00:38:04,077 --> 00:38:06,662 I was just assigned this case 723 00:38:06,704 --> 00:38:09,582 because I was the senior psychiatrist responsible. 724 00:38:09,624 --> 00:38:13,920 Well, it was presented as if this was a working situation 725 00:38:13,961 --> 00:38:15,713 in which a young child 726 00:38:15,755 --> 00:38:20,176 had been reassigned from male to female 727 00:38:20,218 --> 00:38:22,053 under two and a half years of age, 728 00:38:22,095 --> 00:38:26,432 and that this was going to be-- uh, have a positive outcome. 729 00:38:26,474 --> 00:38:29,560 Did all the therapists know what had happened? 730 00:38:29,602 --> 00:38:31,020 Yes. 731 00:38:31,062 --> 00:38:34,273 And they were instructed not to tell Brenda? 732 00:38:34,315 --> 00:38:36,442 It was not our responsibility 733 00:38:36,484 --> 00:38:39,654 to inform Brenda about the truth. 734 00:38:39,695 --> 00:38:42,073 The mandate that we were given, 735 00:38:42,115 --> 00:38:44,826 with consultation with John Money and his people, 736 00:38:44,867 --> 00:38:47,495 was to help to raise her as a girl. 737 00:38:47,537 --> 00:38:50,873 Brenda didn't look like a girl at all. 738 00:38:50,915 --> 00:38:52,542 She was unkempt. 739 00:38:52,583 --> 00:38:55,878 She sat with her legs spread. 740 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:57,797 MORRISON: Brenda was caught by a classmate 741 00:38:57,839 --> 00:39:01,926 in the girls' bathroom urinating standing up. 742 00:39:07,432 --> 00:39:11,310 When you were eight, nine, ten, 11 years old, 743 00:39:11,352 --> 00:39:14,647 what names did they call you at school? 744 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:17,817 (sighs): Uh... 745 00:39:21,112 --> 00:39:23,197 Caveman, uh... 746 00:39:25,241 --> 00:39:27,785 ...uh, freak, uh... 747 00:39:27,827 --> 00:39:29,620 Just about anything imaginable. 748 00:39:29,662 --> 00:39:33,082 I didn't, I didn't comb my hair half the time. 749 00:39:33,124 --> 00:39:36,252 I wore wrinkly clothes. 750 00:39:36,294 --> 00:39:39,464 I couldn't see myself getting all dolled up. Then you get-- 751 00:39:39,505 --> 00:39:41,758 You want to hide in a closet. This is-- 752 00:39:41,799 --> 00:39:43,634 You know, it's embarrassing. 753 00:39:43,676 --> 00:39:45,678 You know, I mean, it's just like-- 754 00:39:45,720 --> 00:39:47,430 (stammers) You can imagine yourself. 755 00:39:47,472 --> 00:39:50,141 Try to go shopping wearing a dress, wearing a wig, 756 00:39:50,183 --> 00:39:53,019 and go shopping, and then you tell me how you feel. 757 00:39:53,853 --> 00:39:55,688 SIGMUNDSON: It became evident to me 758 00:39:55,730 --> 00:39:58,524 this wasn't working at all. 759 00:39:58,566 --> 00:40:00,526 I would go to the senior committee 760 00:40:00,568 --> 00:40:02,278 and, uh, say, you know, 761 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,948 "We-We've got to tell the world that this isn't working." 762 00:40:05,990 --> 00:40:10,912 Some of the members of my senior team said, 763 00:40:10,953 --> 00:40:14,832 "Johns Hopkins will kill you. Your career will be over." 764 00:40:15,875 --> 00:40:19,295 Dr. Money published many articles 765 00:40:19,337 --> 00:40:21,255 on the, uh, progress 766 00:40:21,297 --> 00:40:23,508 that the twins were making. 767 00:40:23,549 --> 00:40:27,637 They were entirely positive. 768 00:40:27,678 --> 00:40:30,306 These reports were glowing. 769 00:40:30,348 --> 00:40:31,724 MORRISON: Brenda and Brian were ten 770 00:40:31,766 --> 00:40:34,936 when Dr. Money published this 1975 paper 771 00:40:34,977 --> 00:40:37,480 in the Archives of Sexual Behavior. 772 00:40:37,522 --> 00:40:39,190 "Brenda's behavior," he writes, 773 00:40:39,232 --> 00:40:42,026 "is so normally that of an active little girl 774 00:40:42,068 --> 00:40:44,862 "and so clearly different by contrast 775 00:40:44,904 --> 00:40:47,615 to the boyish ways of her twin brother." 776 00:40:47,657 --> 00:40:50,910 Is there any possibility that he thought 777 00:40:50,952 --> 00:40:55,373 the experiment to turn you into a girl was working? 778 00:40:55,415 --> 00:40:57,458 I don't think so. 779 00:40:57,500 --> 00:40:59,335 Nobody could be that blind. 780 00:40:59,377 --> 00:41:01,629 How did you feel when John Money told you 781 00:41:01,671 --> 00:41:04,424 that it was time to begin hormone treatments? 782 00:41:04,465 --> 00:41:06,676 I said, "Hell no. 783 00:41:06,718 --> 00:41:09,595 "Why do I have to take this medicine? I'm not dying. 784 00:41:09,637 --> 00:41:12,932 Uh, I-I don't feel that I need it." 785 00:41:13,725 --> 00:41:15,935 And he came up to me, and he says, 786 00:41:15,977 --> 00:41:18,938 "Well, it's to help you so that you'll wear a bra." 787 00:41:20,231 --> 00:41:22,734 SAIFA: When I look at 788 00:41:22,775 --> 00:41:26,571 his face, I just see so much pain. 789 00:41:26,612 --> 00:41:28,698 And the thing is, is that 790 00:41:28,740 --> 00:41:31,033 he didn't even have to go through that. 791 00:41:31,075 --> 00:41:34,203 You know, it didn't have to be this way. 792 00:41:34,245 --> 00:41:35,913 NEWSWOMAN: The child threatened to commit suicide 793 00:41:35,955 --> 00:41:38,541 if ever forced to see Money again. 794 00:41:38,583 --> 00:41:42,128 Only then did his father break down and tell him everything. 795 00:41:42,170 --> 00:41:44,213 DAVID: Then-- well, and then that made sense. 796 00:41:44,255 --> 00:41:47,050 You know, I'm not the one that's crazy. 797 00:41:47,091 --> 00:41:49,385 Like, I was scammed here, you know? 798 00:41:49,427 --> 00:41:52,346 I was, uh, I was taken advantage of. 799 00:41:52,388 --> 00:41:53,639 I was lied to. 800 00:41:54,766 --> 00:41:57,393 SIGMUNDSON: Brenda immediately made the decision 801 00:41:57,435 --> 00:41:58,770 that he was not a girl 802 00:41:58,811 --> 00:42:01,397 and wanted to do anything he could 803 00:42:01,439 --> 00:42:04,150 to assume his life as a male. 804 00:42:05,443 --> 00:42:08,237 She underwent a very painful operation 805 00:42:08,279 --> 00:42:11,074 to have the breast tissue that had developed 806 00:42:11,115 --> 00:42:14,243 from the time she started the female hormones-- 807 00:42:14,285 --> 00:42:15,828 uh, to have them removed. 808 00:42:15,870 --> 00:42:18,915 She spent numbers of weeks in the hospital 809 00:42:18,956 --> 00:42:22,126 when they were trying to reconstruct a penis. 810 00:42:23,711 --> 00:42:25,421 MORRISON: As David struggled, 811 00:42:25,463 --> 00:42:28,758 the world's medical community still had no way of knowing 812 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,844 that the case had been anything but a success. 813 00:42:31,886 --> 00:42:34,263 Dr. Money, the psychologist who for years had written 814 00:42:34,305 --> 00:42:36,682 that the changeover to a girl was working, 815 00:42:36,724 --> 00:42:38,142 hadn't published anything more 816 00:42:38,184 --> 00:42:40,770 to let people know what was now happening. 817 00:42:40,812 --> 00:42:42,980 SIGMUNDSON: The case was still in the literature, 818 00:42:43,022 --> 00:42:45,942 and it had now become part of the textbooks 819 00:42:45,983 --> 00:42:49,987 that medical students were studying all over the world. 820 00:42:59,205 --> 00:43:03,167 The entire medical literature on behalf of gender 821 00:43:03,209 --> 00:43:07,755 and sexual reassignment for intersex children 822 00:43:07,797 --> 00:43:11,300 was entirely based upon this one case. 823 00:43:11,342 --> 00:43:14,804 I had to let the world know what had happened. 824 00:43:14,846 --> 00:43:17,223 I went back to speak to David 825 00:43:17,265 --> 00:43:22,520 as to whether he would like to come out and tell his story. 826 00:43:22,562 --> 00:43:24,313 He readily agreed. 827 00:43:24,355 --> 00:43:25,940 MORRISON: Dr. Sigmundson 828 00:43:25,982 --> 00:43:30,403 and psychologist Milton Diamond wrote a 1997 paper 829 00:43:30,445 --> 00:43:33,281 revealing, without mentioning David's name, 830 00:43:33,322 --> 00:43:36,826 that the success story was not what it seemed. 831 00:43:36,868 --> 00:43:39,871 SIGMUNDSON: Our article was submitted to 832 00:43:39,912 --> 00:43:41,330 the British Medical Journal, 833 00:43:41,372 --> 00:43:43,666 to the New England Journal of Medicine, 834 00:43:43,708 --> 00:43:47,003 and to the American Medical Association Journal, 835 00:43:47,045 --> 00:43:49,047 and in each case, it was returned 836 00:43:49,088 --> 00:43:52,341 after approximately six months, saying, 837 00:43:52,383 --> 00:43:56,763 "We will not publish. It is too controversial." 838 00:43:58,014 --> 00:44:01,559 Eventually, uh, theJournal of Adolescent Medicine 839 00:44:01,601 --> 00:44:04,103 agreed to publish. 840 00:44:22,413 --> 00:44:25,917 DALKE: Money's work was summarily debunked. 841 00:44:27,001 --> 00:44:29,212 What's interesting though is it has been very slow 842 00:44:29,253 --> 00:44:31,964 to catch on in actually changing practice. 843 00:44:32,006 --> 00:44:36,302 The study was debunked in the 1990s, 844 00:44:36,344 --> 00:44:39,555 but the core of Money's conclusion, 845 00:44:39,597 --> 00:44:42,058 that we can make a social gender assignment 846 00:44:42,100 --> 00:44:44,394 and that surgery needs to happen early, 847 00:44:44,435 --> 00:44:47,980 we've really not been able to move past that. 848 00:44:49,732 --> 00:44:51,651 SIGMUNDSON: In America today, 849 00:44:51,692 --> 00:44:53,611 there are still places 850 00:44:53,653 --> 00:44:55,613 where pediatric surgery is performed 851 00:44:55,655 --> 00:44:58,783 based on the Brenda Reimer case. 852 00:45:00,618 --> 00:45:04,580 I think that there's a lot of people 853 00:45:04,622 --> 00:45:06,582 that are very interested in the quick fix. 854 00:45:06,624 --> 00:45:08,084 "Let's go for a quick fix. 855 00:45:08,126 --> 00:45:09,711 "Let's throw him in the surgery room 856 00:45:09,752 --> 00:45:10,962 and get this done and over with." 857 00:45:11,003 --> 00:45:13,589 But who's the one suffering? 858 00:45:13,631 --> 00:45:15,967 * * 859 00:45:23,975 --> 00:45:26,060 MORRISON: David and Jane. 860 00:45:26,102 --> 00:45:28,312 They've been married ten years. 861 00:45:30,773 --> 00:45:32,442 Thanks to reconstructive surgery, 862 00:45:32,483 --> 00:45:35,194 David is capable of having sex. 863 00:45:35,236 --> 00:45:37,155 Though he can never have children, 864 00:45:37,196 --> 00:45:38,781 he's adopted Jane's three children, 865 00:45:38,823 --> 00:45:41,325 -who are now like his own. -(kids laughing) 866 00:45:41,367 --> 00:45:44,287 I'm... I'm married. 867 00:45:44,328 --> 00:45:47,874 I got three kids. I got a nice home. 868 00:45:49,041 --> 00:45:52,462 MORRISON: So, it worked out okay? 869 00:45:52,503 --> 00:45:54,005 Yep. 870 00:45:59,510 --> 00:46:02,597 If you could say anything you wanted to Dr. Money, 871 00:46:02,638 --> 00:46:04,891 what would you say to him? 872 00:46:05,850 --> 00:46:07,769 I don't know. 873 00:46:07,810 --> 00:46:10,354 Are you still angry at him? 874 00:46:11,689 --> 00:46:13,483 Sometimes. 875 00:46:13,524 --> 00:46:16,527 There's a lot of things that are unresolved. 876 00:46:23,367 --> 00:46:26,120 NEWSWOMAN: David Reimer's conflicted life 877 00:46:26,162 --> 00:46:29,373 cut short last week by a tragic suicide. 878 00:46:37,215 --> 00:46:40,426 Reimer's story made international headlines. 879 00:46:40,468 --> 00:46:43,930 He was the victim of a bizarre gender experiment, 880 00:46:43,971 --> 00:46:47,183 a boy forced to live his childhood as a girl. 881 00:46:47,225 --> 00:46:48,976 * * 882 00:47:13,084 --> 00:47:16,546 MORRISON: In earlier times when you told this story, 883 00:47:16,587 --> 00:47:19,298 your identity has been hidden. 884 00:47:21,384 --> 00:47:22,760 And now... 885 00:47:22,802 --> 00:47:24,679 The man unmasked. 886 00:47:24,721 --> 00:47:26,472 Yeah, the man unmasked. 887 00:47:28,725 --> 00:47:31,060 Perhaps this will save... 888 00:47:31,102 --> 00:47:34,230 other people from going through what I went through. 889 00:47:34,272 --> 00:47:36,607 Best way you can look at it. 890 00:47:39,277 --> 00:47:41,362 And that's why you're doing it? 891 00:47:41,404 --> 00:47:43,030 Yes. 892 00:47:44,198 --> 00:47:49,245 I lost my temper when I had heard there was... 893 00:47:49,287 --> 00:47:52,457 that I wasn't the only one that had this surgery. 894 00:47:52,498 --> 00:47:55,168 Well, not the surgery but this whole process being done. 895 00:47:55,209 --> 00:47:59,464 And because of my so-called success story, 896 00:47:59,505 --> 00:48:03,259 that others had to go through what I went through, 897 00:48:03,301 --> 00:48:05,970 and I-I had to try to right a wrong. 898 00:48:13,519 --> 00:48:15,229 All right. 899 00:48:24,655 --> 00:48:27,450 Here we are at the first ever 900 00:48:27,492 --> 00:48:30,328 International World Intersex meeting. 901 00:48:30,369 --> 00:48:31,913 -Whoo. -Yeah. 902 00:48:31,954 --> 00:48:34,624 (laughter) 903 00:48:34,665 --> 00:48:36,125 This is a historic moment, um, 904 00:48:36,167 --> 00:48:38,795 and this is about breaking the secrets and lies. 905 00:48:38,836 --> 00:48:44,217 I really give so much, like, credit and respect and honor 906 00:48:44,258 --> 00:48:48,429 to the previous generation of activists. 907 00:48:48,471 --> 00:48:53,059 I always mark the beginnings of the intersex movement 908 00:48:53,101 --> 00:48:55,478 in the U.S. with the founding of 909 00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:57,688 the Intersex Society of North America. 910 00:48:58,689 --> 00:49:00,358 Actually, I have a question for all of you. 911 00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:02,944 You know, you've told us that you were treated very badly, 912 00:49:02,985 --> 00:49:04,487 it sounds, by your doctors. 913 00:49:04,529 --> 00:49:06,739 SAIFA: There was a gathering of, um, 914 00:49:06,781 --> 00:49:08,658 intersex people. 915 00:49:08,699 --> 00:49:11,119 Ten hermaphrodites in one place. 916 00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:12,954 Has this ever happened before? I don't know. 917 00:49:12,995 --> 00:49:15,373 SAIFA: I think it was radical because, 918 00:49:15,415 --> 00:49:18,000 you know, at the time, there wasn't a context 919 00:49:18,042 --> 00:49:20,420 to understand intersex at all. 920 00:49:21,838 --> 00:49:27,176 These people were sharing their stories so vulnerably. 921 00:49:27,218 --> 00:49:30,096 I mean, I remember them 922 00:49:30,138 --> 00:49:33,349 removing my penis when I was five. 923 00:49:33,391 --> 00:49:36,477 LAURENT: How do you feel about the fact that was done to you? 924 00:49:39,313 --> 00:49:41,858 At times, I feel like hiding in the closet, 925 00:49:41,899 --> 00:49:46,279 because it's like, how can anybody accept, uh, somebody 926 00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:48,740 who's been this mutilated and this, you know-- 927 00:49:48,781 --> 00:49:50,825 Who can accept damaged goods? 928 00:49:50,867 --> 00:49:52,869 I did not have the surgery 929 00:49:52,910 --> 00:49:58,416 to change or feminize that part of my body until I was eight. 930 00:49:58,458 --> 00:50:01,544 It was done in a hospital in total secrecy. 931 00:50:01,586 --> 00:50:05,173 I was taken there and dropped off by my parents, 932 00:50:05,214 --> 00:50:07,216 who did not tell me why I was in hospital 933 00:50:07,258 --> 00:50:09,052 or what was going to happen. 934 00:50:09,093 --> 00:50:13,014 I had I don't know how many doctors and people 935 00:50:13,056 --> 00:50:15,224 come to, um, "look at the freak." 936 00:50:15,266 --> 00:50:16,976 I didn't present any physical ambiguity 937 00:50:17,018 --> 00:50:18,895 until I was 12 years old. 938 00:50:18,936 --> 00:50:22,482 I was a-assigned and raised a girl. 939 00:50:22,523 --> 00:50:26,235 And when I was 12, um, my clitoris started to grow. 940 00:50:26,277 --> 00:50:30,823 Um, I not only noticed its size growing more prominent 941 00:50:30,865 --> 00:50:32,825 but I loved it. 942 00:50:32,867 --> 00:50:34,368 The doctors that I were taken to 943 00:50:34,410 --> 00:50:37,705 in Peoria, Illinois, in 1985, 944 00:50:37,747 --> 00:50:44,003 I now know studied under a doctor who had himself studied 945 00:50:44,045 --> 00:50:46,297 under the illustrious John Money. 946 00:50:46,339 --> 00:50:47,924 You know, this is not unusual 947 00:50:47,965 --> 00:50:49,967 that I had my clitoris taken away from me 948 00:50:50,009 --> 00:50:51,928 without my knowledge. 949 00:50:51,969 --> 00:50:53,012 LAURENT: What'd they say? 950 00:50:53,054 --> 00:50:55,098 That they'd just make it smaller? 951 00:50:55,139 --> 00:50:56,557 That's what they say. 952 00:50:57,517 --> 00:51:01,145 And I want anyone watching this, be they, um, 953 00:51:01,187 --> 00:51:03,773 you know, historians or doctors 954 00:51:03,815 --> 00:51:07,026 or intersex people, wh-whomever, 955 00:51:07,068 --> 00:51:08,403 um, I-I want you to know 956 00:51:08,444 --> 00:51:10,488 that we are just the tip of the iceberg. 957 00:51:12,657 --> 00:51:14,325 SAIFA: I remember the first time 958 00:51:14,367 --> 00:51:17,078 I started taking testosterone. 959 00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:20,915 I moved to California late 2003, 960 00:51:20,957 --> 00:51:23,459 started taking T in 2004. 961 00:51:23,501 --> 00:51:25,878 The endocrinologist, he was like, 962 00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:28,381 "Oh, I'm gonna make you a man." 963 00:51:30,091 --> 00:51:31,968 First shot that I got, 964 00:51:32,009 --> 00:51:34,220 like, I literally felt my whole body. 965 00:51:34,262 --> 00:51:36,681 It was like a whole-body experience. 966 00:51:36,723 --> 00:51:40,309 But then I was like, "Wow. My nipples are sore. 967 00:51:40,351 --> 00:51:43,020 "I have water retention. I have panic attacks. 968 00:51:43,062 --> 00:51:44,605 This is terrible." 969 00:51:47,859 --> 00:51:49,110 This physical examination: 970 00:51:49,152 --> 00:51:52,405 "Lip hair, feminine facial features 971 00:51:52,447 --> 00:51:54,824 and C-cup breasts." 972 00:51:55,992 --> 00:52:00,288 "Eventually may desire genitoplasty and mammaplasty." 973 00:52:00,329 --> 00:52:03,374 Yeah, I did have top surgery, though. 974 00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:12,008 I have a distinct memory of, um, wanting to change my name, 975 00:52:12,050 --> 00:52:14,510 uh, at a DMV in San Jose 976 00:52:14,552 --> 00:52:18,806 and them just being so mean. 977 00:52:18,848 --> 00:52:21,309 You know? Like, literally laughing in my face. 978 00:52:21,350 --> 00:52:22,935 And they're like, "Oh, what is she trying to do? 979 00:52:22,977 --> 00:52:26,481 She wants to change her name to Sean? Ha-ha-ha." 980 00:52:30,568 --> 00:52:33,321 MAN (mispronounces): Sean Saifa Wall? 981 00:52:34,530 --> 00:52:36,199 SAIFA: It's Sean Saifa Wall. 982 00:52:36,240 --> 00:52:38,201 (Saifa chuckles) 983 00:52:38,242 --> 00:52:39,702 I had heard 984 00:52:39,744 --> 00:52:42,371 that the San Francisco Human Rights Commission 985 00:52:42,413 --> 00:52:44,749 was doing a hearing on intersex. 986 00:52:44,791 --> 00:52:47,293 I speak as one of many intersex people of color 987 00:52:47,335 --> 00:52:50,046 in this world who may not have access to email, 988 00:52:50,088 --> 00:52:51,798 LISTSERVs and resources 989 00:52:51,839 --> 00:52:55,176 to acknowledge and embrace their intersex condition. 990 00:52:55,218 --> 00:52:57,220 That's when I had actually-- 991 00:52:57,261 --> 00:53:01,265 for the first time, in front of a larger audience, 992 00:53:01,307 --> 00:53:02,975 I had said... 993 00:53:03,017 --> 00:53:04,727 talked about my body, 994 00:53:04,769 --> 00:53:09,232 talked about the people in my family who, um, were silent. 995 00:53:09,273 --> 00:53:12,610 I speak for my mom, mother of three children 996 00:53:12,652 --> 00:53:14,946 with partial androgen insensitivity syndrome, 997 00:53:14,987 --> 00:53:18,741 who carries guilt and fear of people discovering 998 00:53:18,783 --> 00:53:21,452 her children's and brother's intersex conditions 999 00:53:21,494 --> 00:53:23,913 and treating them unfairly. 1000 00:53:23,955 --> 00:53:25,415 My heart was pounding 1001 00:53:25,456 --> 00:53:29,752 because I had been silent about this for so long. 1002 00:53:29,794 --> 00:53:33,005 I do relate to years of estrogen therapy 1003 00:53:33,047 --> 00:53:34,507 and prodding by psychotherapists 1004 00:53:34,549 --> 00:53:36,426 who wanted to know if the estrogen 1005 00:53:36,467 --> 00:53:38,594 altered my attraction to women 1006 00:53:38,636 --> 00:53:41,764 or changed my presentation as male. 1007 00:53:41,806 --> 00:53:45,476 I can relate to interns and doctors inspecting my genitals 1008 00:53:45,518 --> 00:53:47,937 and gynecologists shoving their finger in my anus, 1009 00:53:47,979 --> 00:53:51,566 searching for a scrotum, but not telling me anything. 1010 00:53:51,607 --> 00:53:57,613 What I had experienced, no one should experience. 1011 00:53:57,655 --> 00:53:58,906 No one. 1012 00:54:00,491 --> 00:54:02,285 NEWSMAN: Lightning rod legislation is 1013 00:54:02,326 --> 00:54:04,620 -sparking an emotional debate in Texas.-(crowd chanting) 1014 00:54:04,662 --> 00:54:06,289 The state senate committee heard 1015 00:54:06,330 --> 00:54:08,291 -ten hours of testimony Friday -(gavel bangs) 1016 00:54:08,332 --> 00:54:10,126 on a so-called "bathroom bill." 1017 00:54:10,168 --> 00:54:11,627 ALICIA: The lieutenant governor 1018 00:54:11,669 --> 00:54:14,505 and governor of Texas had called 1019 00:54:14,547 --> 00:54:16,507 a special governmental session 1020 00:54:16,549 --> 00:54:19,135 to try to pass a bill, 1021 00:54:19,177 --> 00:54:22,138 which basically said 1022 00:54:22,180 --> 00:54:25,475 that trans people had to pee in a restroom 1023 00:54:25,516 --> 00:54:28,978 that aligned with the sex on their birth certificate. 1024 00:54:29,020 --> 00:54:31,773 GREG ABBOTT: We need a law that protects 1025 00:54:31,814 --> 00:54:36,235 the privacy of our children in our public schools. 1026 00:54:36,277 --> 00:54:37,987 ALICIA: I remember realizing, like, 1027 00:54:38,029 --> 00:54:41,991 "Wait, like, my story could help kill this bill," 1028 00:54:42,033 --> 00:54:43,618 because I kept hearing 1029 00:54:43,659 --> 00:54:48,289 the senators saying biological sex is cut-and-dry, 1030 00:54:48,331 --> 00:54:49,707 and what my story proved 1031 00:54:49,749 --> 00:54:52,168 is that biological sex is not cut-and-dry. 1032 00:54:53,294 --> 00:54:57,048 At the time, I was working for a former state senator. 1033 00:54:57,090 --> 00:54:59,801 All these senators knew me, and a lot of them have hit on me, 1034 00:54:59,842 --> 00:55:02,678 so I knew it would blow their mind when they realized that, 1035 00:55:02,720 --> 00:55:04,347 all this time, they had been hitting on someone 1036 00:55:04,389 --> 00:55:05,848 who was born with balls. 1037 00:55:05,890 --> 00:55:08,518 ("Oh, Pretty Woman" by Pomplamoose playing) 1038 00:55:08,559 --> 00:55:10,228 * Pretty woman * 1039 00:55:10,269 --> 00:55:12,522 * Walking down the street * 1040 00:55:12,563 --> 00:55:14,357 * Pretty woman... * 1041 00:55:14,399 --> 00:55:18,361 At this point, I hadn't told my brother and my best friends 1042 00:55:18,403 --> 00:55:19,904 and people that have known me my whole life 1043 00:55:19,946 --> 00:55:21,656 that I'm intersex. 1044 00:55:21,697 --> 00:55:23,991 On my way to the Capitol is when I called my mom, 1045 00:55:24,033 --> 00:55:25,284 and I was like, 1046 00:55:25,326 --> 00:55:27,203 "I'm gonna come out today." 1047 00:55:27,245 --> 00:55:28,788 And she was like, "What do you mean?" 1048 00:55:28,830 --> 00:55:32,875 I was like, "I'm gonna tell the Texas Senate who I am." 1049 00:55:32,917 --> 00:55:34,460 * Mercy... * 1050 00:55:35,837 --> 00:55:38,297 Madam Chairperson and members of the committee, 1051 00:55:38,339 --> 00:55:39,424 thank you for your time. 1052 00:55:39,465 --> 00:55:40,925 My name is Alicia Weigel. 1053 00:55:40,967 --> 00:55:44,679 I'm a resident of Austin, and I have XY chromosomes. 1054 00:55:44,721 --> 00:55:48,391 It was, like, the scariest thing that I've ever done. 1055 00:55:48,433 --> 00:55:50,727 I stand here today-- or sit here today-- (chuckles) 1056 00:55:50,768 --> 00:55:54,313 representing the "I" in LGBTQIA, 1057 00:55:54,355 --> 00:55:55,606 which stands for "intersex." 1058 00:55:55,648 --> 00:55:57,608 Uh, because of a condition called 1059 00:55:57,650 --> 00:55:59,819 complete androgen insensitivity, 1060 00:55:59,861 --> 00:56:02,613 I was born phenotypically female on the outside, 1061 00:56:02,655 --> 00:56:04,073 with a woman's anatomy 1062 00:56:04,115 --> 00:56:06,284 but with internal testes instead of ovaries. 1063 00:56:06,325 --> 00:56:08,369 And so I basically wanted to tell them 1064 00:56:08,411 --> 00:56:10,329 that if they wanted to try to pass 1065 00:56:10,371 --> 00:56:11,831 discriminatory legislation, 1066 00:56:11,873 --> 00:56:14,625 they should at least open a biology textbook first. 1067 00:56:14,667 --> 00:56:16,669 Because people like me exist. 1068 00:56:17,545 --> 00:56:19,505 Because of my genotypic XY chromosomes, 1069 00:56:19,547 --> 00:56:21,466 does that mean that I've been 1070 00:56:21,507 --> 00:56:23,092 using the wrong bathroom my whole life? 1071 00:56:23,134 --> 00:56:25,094 No, it doesn't mean that. 1072 00:56:25,136 --> 00:56:27,847 In closing, I ask people to reflect on how many people 1073 00:56:27,889 --> 00:56:31,059 are alienated because their lives and experiences 1074 00:56:31,100 --> 00:56:34,437 fall outside of our "established" binary system. 1075 00:56:34,479 --> 00:56:36,022 Thank you. 1076 00:56:36,064 --> 00:56:37,940 (applause) 1077 00:56:37,982 --> 00:56:39,942 It felt so good. 1078 00:56:39,984 --> 00:56:41,778 I think that was sort of the beginnings 1079 00:56:41,819 --> 00:56:45,615 of, like, the fire for justice that was burning inside of me. 1080 00:56:45,656 --> 00:56:50,119 Um, this conversation will perhaps change the world. 1081 00:56:50,161 --> 00:56:51,287 Hey, what's up, Alok? 1082 00:56:51,329 --> 00:56:53,039 -How are you? -Talk to me. 1083 00:56:53,081 --> 00:56:54,457 Whoo, baby. 1084 00:56:54,499 --> 00:56:55,958 My presupposition is that there are two genders, 1085 00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:57,543 and if you would like to change my mind on that, 1086 00:56:57,585 --> 00:56:59,295 you're-you're more than welcome. 1087 00:56:59,337 --> 00:57:02,006 I hope that, like, my existence can shed some light for you. 1088 00:57:02,048 --> 00:57:06,135 I got into an online conversation with one pundit. 1089 00:57:06,177 --> 00:57:07,678 I was actually born intersex. 1090 00:57:07,720 --> 00:57:10,139 Our conversation got on YouTube 1091 00:57:10,181 --> 00:57:12,433 and has over 20 million views around the world. 1092 00:57:12,475 --> 00:57:14,060 If we're born somewhere in between 1093 00:57:14,102 --> 00:57:16,562 -in terms of our, like, biological traits... -Mm-hmm. 1094 00:57:16,604 --> 00:57:19,482 ...then how can it not also be true 1095 00:57:19,524 --> 00:57:21,317 that we might identify somewhere in between 1096 00:57:21,359 --> 00:57:23,653 in terms of our gender and how that presents itself? 1097 00:57:23,694 --> 00:57:28,157 We are receiving health care that is rooted in transphobia 1098 00:57:28,199 --> 00:57:29,826 and that's rooted in homophobia. 1099 00:57:29,867 --> 00:57:32,578 It's ironic that so many of these doctors 1100 00:57:32,620 --> 00:57:34,831 will use the rhetoric of biology... 1101 00:57:34,872 --> 00:57:36,374 -Right. -...when, in fact, 1102 00:57:36,416 --> 00:57:38,000 the body is the biggest argument 1103 00:57:38,042 --> 00:57:39,377 against the sex binary. 1104 00:57:39,419 --> 00:57:41,629 -Totally. -There have been and will always be people 1105 00:57:41,671 --> 00:57:45,049 who are born outside of these categories of male or female. 1106 00:57:45,091 --> 00:57:47,176 Why should they have to choose "I'm a male or a female" 1107 00:57:47,218 --> 00:57:49,595 if they were not born a male or a female? 1108 00:57:49,637 --> 00:57:51,806 There are some people who are born without feet. 1109 00:57:51,848 --> 00:57:53,683 There are some people who are born with a webbed hand. 1110 00:57:53,725 --> 00:57:56,352 We don't teach biology, uh, very-- based on outsiders. 1111 00:57:56,394 --> 00:57:57,770 Based on a spectrum of existence? 1112 00:57:57,812 --> 00:57:59,981 Intersex people become the problem 1113 00:58:00,022 --> 00:58:02,191 -and not society's prejudice... -Totally. 1114 00:58:02,233 --> 00:58:05,194 -...for policing people into the binary. -Totally. Totally. 1115 00:58:05,236 --> 00:58:06,863 Society can't keep up. 1116 00:58:06,904 --> 00:58:07,905 That's why biological studies matter. 1117 00:58:07,947 --> 00:58:09,365 So hard for people to keep up. 1118 00:58:09,407 --> 00:58:10,950 Like, it's so hard for those people 1119 00:58:10,992 --> 00:58:12,994 -and not the people who are being marginalized? -Yes. 1120 00:58:13,035 --> 00:58:14,579 I'm sorry I don't have a box of tissues for you. 1121 00:58:14,620 --> 00:58:15,913 So let me give you... 1122 00:58:17,290 --> 00:58:19,292 * * 1123 00:58:30,928 --> 00:58:33,347 RIVER: Being public-repping intersex 1124 00:58:33,389 --> 00:58:35,558 is really new for me. 1125 00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:38,895 For a while, I didn't know the word existed. 1126 00:58:38,936 --> 00:58:41,689 But when I did discover it, 1127 00:58:41,731 --> 00:58:45,943 I wasn't ready to face how angry I was. 1128 00:58:45,985 --> 00:58:47,904 For a while, I felt like it was easier for me 1129 00:58:47,945 --> 00:58:50,239 to express myself artistically. 1130 00:58:51,741 --> 00:58:55,870 I did my undergrad at, uh, NYU in acting, 1131 00:58:55,912 --> 00:58:58,831 and then I did my graduate, uh, degree 1132 00:58:58,873 --> 00:59:01,417 at USC at the School of Cinematic Arts. 1133 00:59:01,459 --> 00:59:03,795 I specialize in writing and directing, 1134 00:59:03,836 --> 00:59:06,839 and I've been in L.A. ever since. 1135 00:59:13,054 --> 00:59:16,599 COHEN: Can you say a little bit about how being intersex 1136 00:59:16,641 --> 00:59:17,975 impacted, uh, 1137 00:59:18,017 --> 00:59:20,103 your relationships with your parents? 1138 00:59:20,144 --> 00:59:21,229 Wow. 1139 00:59:21,270 --> 00:59:22,772 I mean, I guess, 1140 00:59:22,814 --> 00:59:24,649 at the moment that I found out when I was 12, 1141 00:59:24,690 --> 00:59:26,943 -I completely lost trust in them. -ALICIA: Yeah. 1142 00:59:26,984 --> 00:59:28,653 I thought I was betrayed by them. 1143 00:59:28,694 --> 00:59:32,407 And I think it gave me, like, an authority issue. 1144 00:59:32,448 --> 00:59:34,534 SAIFA: A lot of parents consent to 1145 00:59:34,575 --> 00:59:36,619 these procedures, like, 1146 00:59:36,661 --> 00:59:39,956 not really knowing the long-term effects. 1147 00:59:39,997 --> 00:59:41,624 I think a lot of parents do it 1148 00:59:41,666 --> 00:59:43,876 because they're really concerned about their kids. 1149 00:59:43,918 --> 00:59:47,463 Both my parents are dead, you know, so... 1150 00:59:47,505 --> 00:59:50,633 I think my mom carried a lot of guilt. 1151 00:59:50,675 --> 00:59:52,051 In my family, 1152 00:59:52,093 --> 00:59:53,803 people don't even want to talk about it. 1153 00:59:53,845 --> 00:59:56,180 The doctors told my mom, "You shouldn't tell your husband 1154 00:59:56,222 --> 00:59:58,933 'cause he can't handle it." Right? 1155 00:59:58,975 --> 01:00:01,144 -Um... -It's this whole thing. No one can handle it. 1156 01:00:01,185 --> 01:00:02,812 Right. Totally, you know? 1157 01:00:02,854 --> 01:00:05,982 What do you have to handle? The way that my body was born? 1158 01:00:06,023 --> 01:00:07,984 Like, what-what is there to handle? 1159 01:00:08,025 --> 01:00:09,026 (laughter) 1160 01:00:10,069 --> 01:00:13,156 For a parent to reconcile that decisions they made 1161 01:00:13,197 --> 01:00:14,949 might have actually harmed their child, 1162 01:00:14,991 --> 01:00:16,659 that's, like, a really scary thing 1163 01:00:16,701 --> 01:00:18,119 for a parent to understand. 1164 01:00:18,161 --> 01:00:23,082 My mom has since become a real ally. 1165 01:00:23,124 --> 01:00:26,836 She's even testified at New York City Council. 1166 01:00:26,878 --> 01:00:30,923 ...that Alicia had complete androgen insensitivity. 1167 01:00:30,965 --> 01:00:33,801 And if you've heard of that, I applaud you. 1168 01:00:33,843 --> 01:00:36,929 I'm a nurse, and I had never heard of it. 1169 01:00:36,971 --> 01:00:39,348 It means that while Alicia appears female, 1170 01:00:39,390 --> 01:00:42,685 she is genotypically male with XY chromosomes. 1171 01:00:42,727 --> 01:00:45,521 We had a wonderful doctor who advised us 1172 01:00:45,563 --> 01:00:47,940 to the best of his knowledge at the time, 1173 01:00:47,982 --> 01:00:49,692 but never once did he suggest 1174 01:00:49,734 --> 01:00:54,363 that we keep an option open for Alicia to tell us who she was. 1175 01:00:54,405 --> 01:00:56,032 We should allow our children 1176 01:00:56,074 --> 01:00:58,201 the right to identify themselves 1177 01:00:58,242 --> 01:01:01,829 rather than rely on the snap judgment of a nurse or doctor 1178 01:01:01,871 --> 01:01:04,415 in the chaos of the delivery room. 1179 01:01:04,457 --> 01:01:08,461 These practices that surround the birth of intersex children, 1180 01:01:08,503 --> 01:01:09,670 they harm everyone. 1181 01:01:09,712 --> 01:01:11,255 -Wow. -You know? 1182 01:01:13,091 --> 01:01:15,218 * * 1183 01:01:16,886 --> 01:01:18,930 RIVER: Every time I come back to New Jersey, 1184 01:01:18,971 --> 01:01:20,640 it feels so familiar, 1185 01:01:20,681 --> 01:01:23,726 but I feel like I've changed so much. 1186 01:01:23,768 --> 01:01:26,521 There's something that I also find, like, 1187 01:01:26,562 --> 01:01:29,482 inspiring and beautiful about... 1188 01:01:31,275 --> 01:01:34,320 ...just how ugly it is. 1189 01:01:34,362 --> 01:01:35,738 (laughs) 1190 01:01:35,780 --> 01:01:38,991 You know, how, like, grim-looking it can be. 1191 01:01:43,955 --> 01:01:47,250 COHEN: Maribel, was coping with River's 1192 01:01:47,291 --> 01:01:52,213 childhood medical issues a challenge for you? 1193 01:02:09,105 --> 01:02:10,982 COHEN: Was there anything that you wish 1194 01:02:11,023 --> 01:02:12,942 you had known more about 1195 01:02:12,984 --> 01:02:16,487 or that the doctors had told you differently? 1196 01:02:28,291 --> 01:02:29,917 Two. 1197 01:02:41,387 --> 01:02:46,100 * I hear the rhythm of life in song, I know the... * 1198 01:02:53,191 --> 01:02:55,068 And that she'd just ask God 1199 01:02:55,109 --> 01:02:57,320 and pray to God that in my life... 1200 01:03:05,661 --> 01:03:06,996 I don't think she'll ever 1201 01:03:07,038 --> 01:03:08,623 get my pronouns right. 1202 01:03:08,664 --> 01:03:11,959 I think she'll always kind of 1203 01:03:12,001 --> 01:03:15,296 use more male language towards me. 1204 01:03:15,338 --> 01:03:18,007 But I give my mother a lot of grace just because 1205 01:03:18,049 --> 01:03:20,885 I know where she comes from. 1206 01:03:20,927 --> 01:03:23,679 She came from poverty. 1207 01:03:23,721 --> 01:03:26,224 Coming to this country not knowing English, like, 1208 01:03:26,265 --> 01:03:29,268 you know, she's done certain things for me 1209 01:03:29,310 --> 01:03:33,898 that I can't even fathom how she did that. 1210 01:03:35,024 --> 01:03:38,027 I just know that our relationship transcends even 1211 01:03:38,069 --> 01:03:40,655 maybe how I feel about my own gender, 1212 01:03:40,696 --> 01:03:46,536 because it's just pure... love. 1213 01:03:46,577 --> 01:03:49,205 (voice breaking): She just had faith that... 1214 01:03:50,289 --> 01:03:53,251 ...that I was gonna pull through in the end, and, um... 1215 01:03:56,754 --> 01:03:59,924 Because, uh, there are a lot of moments, and still now, 1216 01:03:59,966 --> 01:04:03,010 where I don't, I don't think I'm gonna pull through. 1217 01:04:03,052 --> 01:04:06,639 But my mom always knows that I'm gonna... 1218 01:04:06,681 --> 01:04:08,975 make it. (chuckles) 1219 01:04:10,810 --> 01:04:12,395 (kisses) 1220 01:04:12,437 --> 01:04:14,147 MARIBEL: Mm. Be strong. 1221 01:04:14,188 --> 01:04:16,065 Mothers are-- all over the world are all alike. 1222 01:04:16,107 --> 01:04:17,775 There's guilt, uh, 1223 01:04:17,817 --> 01:04:21,112 with things that were done, were done out of compassion... 1224 01:04:21,154 --> 01:04:23,990 out of love for your child, I think. 1225 01:04:24,031 --> 01:04:26,284 How can I hate my mother for that? 1226 01:04:26,325 --> 01:04:28,578 WINFREY: Did you think he would hate you? 1227 01:04:28,619 --> 01:04:29,996 -Yes, I did. -Mm-hmm. 1228 01:04:30,037 --> 01:04:32,415 -Did you hate yourself? -Yes. 1229 01:04:32,457 --> 01:04:33,916 Mm-hmm. 1230 01:04:33,958 --> 01:04:36,044 (David sighs heavily) 1231 01:04:40,465 --> 01:04:42,467 (ringtone playing) 1232 01:04:47,180 --> 01:04:48,723 -ALICIA: Hey. -SAIFA: What's up? 1233 01:04:48,765 --> 01:04:50,349 Hey, what's up? I'm Saifa. 1234 01:04:50,391 --> 01:04:52,727 ALICIA: I'm Alicia. It's nice to meet you. 1235 01:04:52,769 --> 01:04:54,228 Nice to meet you guys, too. 1236 01:04:54,270 --> 01:04:56,773 -I'm her mom. -ALICIA: And how old is she? 1237 01:04:56,814 --> 01:04:58,941 -(quiet clatter) -She is five. 1238 01:04:58,983 --> 01:05:00,777 She just turned-- You can probably hear her. 1239 01:05:00,818 --> 01:05:03,321 She, uh, just turned five in January. 1240 01:05:03,362 --> 01:05:04,280 -Yeah. -Wow. 1241 01:05:04,322 --> 01:05:05,823 SAIFA: I would imagine 1242 01:05:05,865 --> 01:05:08,367 -that it hasn't been easy... -Totally. 1243 01:05:08,409 --> 01:05:09,869 SAIFA: ...because, you know, 1244 01:05:09,911 --> 01:05:12,121 the culture surrounding intersex people, 1245 01:05:12,163 --> 01:05:15,500 it's a lot of, like, shame, and it's a lot of secrecy. 1246 01:05:15,541 --> 01:05:18,961 ERICKA: When she was born and I was at the hospital, 1247 01:05:19,003 --> 01:05:20,838 it-it was very secrecy at first. 1248 01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:22,632 Why are all these people here? 1249 01:05:22,673 --> 01:05:24,008 One, two, three, four. 1250 01:05:24,050 --> 01:05:25,510 Just different people coming in. 1251 01:05:25,551 --> 01:05:27,887 "Can you go get the doctor? Can you go get the..." 1252 01:05:27,929 --> 01:05:30,473 So they put on her bracelet "unknown." 1253 01:05:30,515 --> 01:05:33,226 And when they put on her bracelet "U-N-K" 1254 01:05:33,267 --> 01:05:35,478 is when I realized, because, 1255 01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:37,230 my-- you know, I compared it to my bracelet, 1256 01:05:37,271 --> 01:05:38,731 and on my bracelet, it said, you know, "female." 1257 01:05:38,773 --> 01:05:42,151 I had never heard of, like, the term "intersex." 1258 01:05:42,193 --> 01:05:43,986 Nothing like that. 1259 01:05:44,028 --> 01:05:45,613 And what sort of guidance did they give you? 1260 01:05:45,655 --> 01:05:47,907 Everyone just kind of was like, "What do you want to do?" 1261 01:05:47,949 --> 01:05:49,242 And we were trying to figure out 1262 01:05:49,283 --> 01:05:51,285 what gender we wanted to assign her, 1263 01:05:51,327 --> 01:05:53,913 so I had, like, maybe three, four days, 1264 01:05:53,955 --> 01:05:57,375 um, in the hospital to kind of decide. 1265 01:05:57,417 --> 01:05:59,669 Ericka, did you end up finding out 1266 01:05:59,711 --> 01:06:02,839 what (bleep), um, variation is? 1267 01:06:02,880 --> 01:06:04,215 Partial androgen insensitivity syndrome. 1268 01:06:04,257 --> 01:06:06,843 Like, she has the internal testes, 1269 01:06:06,884 --> 01:06:09,053 but she doesn't have a vaginal canal. 1270 01:06:09,095 --> 01:06:11,389 And are they trying to, um, 1271 01:06:11,431 --> 01:06:15,268 push for you to remove the testes, or no? 1272 01:06:15,309 --> 01:06:18,354 No. So they, um, they did mention that, like, 1273 01:06:18,396 --> 01:06:21,190 the testes internal can eventually maybe cause cancer, 1274 01:06:21,232 --> 01:06:22,984 but it's, like, a rare maybe. 1275 01:06:23,025 --> 01:06:24,193 It was just like, "You know what? 1276 01:06:24,235 --> 01:06:25,695 "We don't need to do anything right now 1277 01:06:25,737 --> 01:06:27,530 till she gets older and can really decide." 1278 01:06:27,572 --> 01:06:29,574 -That sounds awesome. -That's so great. Huh. 1279 01:06:29,615 --> 01:06:32,577 -ALICIA: Very different than our experiences. -Wow. 1280 01:06:32,618 --> 01:06:34,537 So, the only time they actually brought up surgery 1281 01:06:34,579 --> 01:06:36,164 was for the intent of, 1282 01:06:36,205 --> 01:06:38,374 "Okay, like, if she does decide to be a girl, 1283 01:06:38,416 --> 01:06:40,710 "then we could do the vaginal canal, 1284 01:06:40,752 --> 01:06:44,213 you know, at an age that you guys feel comfortable with." 1285 01:06:44,255 --> 01:06:46,007 ALICIA: If that's something that she actively wants 1286 01:06:46,049 --> 01:06:47,300 -when she's old enough... -Totally. 1287 01:06:47,341 --> 01:06:48,718 ...to make that decision for herself. 1288 01:06:48,760 --> 01:06:50,136 -Totally. Totally. -Yeah. 1289 01:06:50,178 --> 01:06:53,222 They did the genetic testing on me and her dad, 1290 01:06:53,264 --> 01:06:56,142 and her-- it wasn't in-in the dad's side; it was in my side. 1291 01:06:56,184 --> 01:06:58,311 Uh, you know, they-they told me not to have kids. 1292 01:06:58,352 --> 01:07:00,480 Well, that's deep that they told you 1293 01:07:00,521 --> 01:07:02,148 -not to have any more kids... -ALICIA: Yeah. 1294 01:07:02,190 --> 01:07:05,485 ...because that's very, like, intersexphobic. 1295 01:07:05,526 --> 01:07:08,071 Um, because I think it's beautiful. 1296 01:07:08,112 --> 01:07:10,156 I think it's a gift when, you know, 1297 01:07:10,198 --> 01:07:12,658 parents get to have children that are intersex. 1298 01:07:12,700 --> 01:07:16,370 DALKE: Gender identity is really, really complicated, 1299 01:07:16,412 --> 01:07:19,165 and it evolves for people over time. 1300 01:07:19,207 --> 01:07:22,543 Parents can, and most of the time do, 1301 01:07:22,585 --> 01:07:25,546 decide to raise their child as either a girl or a boy, 1302 01:07:25,588 --> 01:07:27,924 but their child's gender identity 1303 01:07:27,965 --> 01:07:30,468 very likely will change over time. 1304 01:07:30,510 --> 01:07:33,262 Unless surgery is medically necessary, 1305 01:07:33,304 --> 01:07:35,264 we really should be waiting 1306 01:07:35,306 --> 01:07:38,768 to perform irreversible medical and surgical interventions 1307 01:07:38,810 --> 01:07:42,397 until a child is old enough to tell us who they are 1308 01:07:42,438 --> 01:07:44,690 and to really be able to participate in the decision. 1309 01:07:44,732 --> 01:07:49,112 And for some people, we shouldn't do surgery at all. 1310 01:07:49,153 --> 01:07:51,447 * * 1311 01:08:01,624 --> 01:08:04,377 WOMAN: All right. Actors, go please. 1312 01:08:04,419 --> 01:08:06,254 RIVER (as Fool): That serves and seeks for gain, 1313 01:08:06,295 --> 01:08:08,631 And follows but for form, 1314 01:08:08,673 --> 01:08:10,466 Will pack when it begins to rain, 1315 01:08:10,508 --> 01:08:12,593 And leave thee in the storm. 1316 01:08:16,681 --> 01:08:18,182 ACTOR (as Gloucester): Well, my good lord, 1317 01:08:18,224 --> 01:08:20,268 I have informed her so. 1318 01:08:20,309 --> 01:08:22,812 JOE MORTON (as King Lear): Informed her?! 1319 01:08:22,854 --> 01:08:24,814 -Dost thou understand me, man? -Ay, my lord. 1320 01:08:24,856 --> 01:08:28,818 The king would speak with Regan. 1321 01:08:28,860 --> 01:08:33,573 * Way out there beyond this hick town, Barnaby * 1322 01:08:34,365 --> 01:08:37,410 * There's a slick town, Barnaby... * 1323 01:08:38,703 --> 01:08:42,540 RIVER: If I had seen myself in high school 1324 01:08:42,582 --> 01:08:45,543 and known of who I was going to be, 1325 01:08:45,585 --> 01:08:48,171 I would have felt so much less alone. 1326 01:08:48,212 --> 01:08:50,214 * * 1327 01:08:53,885 --> 01:08:59,724 There are no notable intersex actors in the world. 1328 01:09:00,725 --> 01:09:03,853 But there are so many intersex people. 1329 01:09:03,895 --> 01:09:05,521 My last year at NYU, 1330 01:09:05,563 --> 01:09:08,524 I started meeting agents and managers 1331 01:09:08,566 --> 01:09:09,859 who all just were like... 1332 01:09:09,901 --> 01:09:10,985 Down, wantons, down! 1333 01:09:11,027 --> 01:09:12,737 "You're cool, but, like, 1334 01:09:12,779 --> 01:09:16,574 we don't really know where to place you." 1335 01:09:16,616 --> 01:09:19,368 I thought, "I need to put all my cards on the table, 1336 01:09:19,410 --> 01:09:21,621 "and I just need to create art 1337 01:09:21,662 --> 01:09:26,375 that is just, like, dripping with River." 1338 01:09:27,543 --> 01:09:31,005 Just existing as an intersex person 1339 01:09:31,047 --> 01:09:34,717 is grounds for celebration 1340 01:09:34,759 --> 01:09:38,429 in a whole world that doesn't see us. 1341 01:09:38,471 --> 01:09:40,556 But you know what? 1342 01:09:40,598 --> 01:09:41,933 We are here now. 1343 01:09:45,728 --> 01:09:48,064 (horn honks) 1344 01:09:48,106 --> 01:09:50,400 * * 1345 01:10:02,787 --> 01:10:05,289 SAIFA: I think, um, I'm ready to see, 1346 01:10:05,331 --> 01:10:07,083 um, the exhibit. 1347 01:10:07,125 --> 01:10:10,253 It's gonna be artists' work from all over the world. 1348 01:10:10,294 --> 01:10:12,755 It's all intersex people, which is rad. 1349 01:10:12,797 --> 01:10:15,633 And I think it's gonna be wild to kind of see myself, like, 1350 01:10:15,675 --> 01:10:18,302 butt naked, you know, like, "Wow," you know. 1351 01:10:18,344 --> 01:10:19,929 For the art. For the movement. 1352 01:10:22,807 --> 01:10:27,729 When I decided to do this photography series, 1353 01:10:27,770 --> 01:10:32,984 it's kind of like that final offering of my physical body. 1354 01:10:34,110 --> 01:10:35,528 This is not the story 1355 01:10:35,570 --> 01:10:38,030 that doctors had already laid out for me. 1356 01:10:38,072 --> 01:10:41,075 I get to write my own script. 1357 01:10:52,003 --> 01:10:53,963 Oh, wow. (squeals softly) 1358 01:10:54,005 --> 01:10:57,175 That's wild. That's so wild. 1359 01:10:57,216 --> 01:10:58,718 Wow. 1360 01:11:32,001 --> 01:11:33,711 (exhales heavily) 1361 01:11:38,883 --> 01:11:41,094 Yeah, so this work is... 1362 01:11:41,135 --> 01:11:43,012 Yeah, it's all different bodies. 1363 01:11:43,054 --> 01:11:45,556 There is no body the same. 1364 01:12:00,071 --> 01:12:01,739 -(stammers) Wait. In there? -(laughs) Yeah, yeah. 1365 01:12:01,781 --> 01:12:03,366 -Yeah. Go through. -I didn't see it. (laughs) 1366 01:12:03,408 --> 01:12:05,410 WEIB: The one we took. Hold on, I'll bring it. 1367 01:12:07,412 --> 01:12:09,205 -Over here. -SAIFA: Right. 1368 01:12:09,247 --> 01:12:11,124 You see. 1369 01:12:11,165 --> 01:12:12,959 SAIFA: Wow. 1370 01:12:14,919 --> 01:12:17,130 Aw. Aw. 1371 01:12:23,386 --> 01:12:27,765 Utopia would also have to be a world 1372 01:12:27,807 --> 01:12:32,103 where no one ever had to go through trauma. 1373 01:12:35,440 --> 01:12:36,649 Right. 1374 01:12:43,448 --> 01:12:45,032 SAIFA: Right. 1375 01:12:45,992 --> 01:12:49,704 I think what makes me really, like, like, sad-- 1376 01:12:49,746 --> 01:12:55,418 Like, I was going through the exhibit, and, like, 1377 01:12:55,460 --> 01:12:58,629 you know, my heart, like, hurt, you know? 1378 01:12:58,671 --> 01:13:01,591 Just-- all over the world, 1379 01:13:01,632 --> 01:13:04,635 we've been saying, like, what happened to us, 1380 01:13:04,677 --> 01:13:05,970 like, why this should stop. 1381 01:13:06,012 --> 01:13:08,389 Like, we just been saying it, you know? 1382 01:13:08,431 --> 01:13:11,934 It just makes me so angry. 1383 01:13:11,976 --> 01:13:15,813 For 30 years, we've been saying the same thing, 1384 01:13:15,855 --> 01:13:18,858 and it's just like they won't fucking listen. 1385 01:13:22,153 --> 01:13:25,948 I had wanted to be perceived in the world 1386 01:13:25,990 --> 01:13:30,620 as male all the time, and that didn't happen. 1387 01:13:30,661 --> 01:13:33,998 I definitely had suicidal thoughts. 1388 01:13:34,040 --> 01:13:36,250 I thought to myself, 1389 01:13:36,292 --> 01:13:39,379 "Maybe I shouldn't exist." 1390 01:13:39,420 --> 01:13:41,005 You know? 1391 01:13:42,173 --> 01:13:44,509 But if I don't exist, 1392 01:13:44,550 --> 01:13:47,678 no one will ever know my story. 1393 01:13:49,514 --> 01:13:51,474 MANI MITCHELL: I just hope that by the time 1394 01:13:51,516 --> 01:13:53,476 some years has passed that this practice 1395 01:13:53,518 --> 01:13:57,146 of mutilating, um, little children stops 1396 01:13:57,188 --> 01:13:59,816 and that we're allowed to live who we are, 1397 01:13:59,857 --> 01:14:02,402 unmutilated, and-and we make the decisions about 1398 01:14:02,443 --> 01:14:04,028 how that's going to be. 1399 01:14:08,408 --> 01:14:10,701 * * 1400 01:14:27,135 --> 01:14:29,137 * * 1401 01:14:38,771 --> 01:14:40,648 ALICIA: You know, I've been out here shouting 1402 01:14:40,690 --> 01:14:44,152 for years, but I'm seeing a lot of stuff picking up. 1403 01:14:52,410 --> 01:14:56,456 My goals here are to try to pass a bill 1404 01:14:56,497 --> 01:14:59,417 to condemn these surgeries as a city, 1405 01:14:59,459 --> 01:15:03,880 and then also to somehow, you know, mandate 1406 01:15:03,921 --> 01:15:06,883 that Austin Public Health puts together 1407 01:15:06,924 --> 01:15:09,761 a public awareness campaign for parents and doctors. 1408 01:15:09,802 --> 01:15:11,095 There are certain topics 1409 01:15:11,137 --> 01:15:13,097 that people don't really fight about. 1410 01:15:13,139 --> 01:15:15,850 -Totally. Yeah. -You know, it's like, this just is. 1411 01:15:15,892 --> 01:15:19,145 -Yeah. -And I wonder if this might be a "just is." 1412 01:15:19,187 --> 01:15:21,105 There's no confusion. 1413 01:15:21,147 --> 01:15:23,900 I am nervous that if the state catches wind of it, 1414 01:15:23,941 --> 01:15:25,985 that they might try to preempt it. 1415 01:15:26,027 --> 01:15:29,238 What happens is they have legislation 1416 01:15:29,280 --> 01:15:30,823 that targets trans children. 1417 01:15:30,865 --> 01:15:35,119 The bills say, "Don't allow these surgeries 1418 01:15:35,161 --> 01:15:37,705 and hormones, et cetera, et cetera, for trans kids--" 1419 01:15:37,747 --> 01:15:39,248 Which, by the way, these surgeries 1420 01:15:39,290 --> 01:15:40,750 never happen on trans kids. 1421 01:15:40,792 --> 01:15:42,877 They always happen later in life for trans people. 1422 01:15:42,919 --> 01:15:45,088 And then they all have, like, appendices that say, 1423 01:15:45,129 --> 01:15:47,757 "But when children are born intersex, 1424 01:15:47,799 --> 01:15:49,634 "then you can still provide 1425 01:15:49,675 --> 01:15:51,886 these hormones and these surgeries." 1426 01:15:51,928 --> 01:15:54,263 They don't view trans kids as normal, so they say, 1427 01:15:54,305 --> 01:15:57,058 "Don't give them these lifesaving procedures." 1428 01:15:57,100 --> 01:15:59,769 They don't view intersex kids as normal, so they say, 1429 01:15:59,811 --> 01:16:01,938 "Force those same procedures on them." 1430 01:16:01,979 --> 01:16:04,607 How bizarre and absurd is it? 1431 01:16:04,649 --> 01:16:06,776 -Yeah. -I know. 1432 01:16:10,279 --> 01:16:12,281 (line ringing) 1433 01:16:12,323 --> 01:16:13,574 ALICIA: Hi. It's Alicia, 1434 01:16:13,616 --> 01:16:14,617 part of the intersex rally tomorrow. 1435 01:16:14,659 --> 01:16:16,160 How are you? 1436 01:16:16,202 --> 01:16:18,287 PERSON (over phone): I'm good, Alicia. How are you? 1437 01:16:18,329 --> 01:16:21,290 I'm good. I'm just making that last-minute round of calls. 1438 01:16:21,332 --> 01:16:25,628 It's like, we-we're doing good work in Texas, 1439 01:16:25,670 --> 01:16:27,880 but we also have work to do in New York City. 1440 01:16:27,922 --> 01:16:30,299 New York Public Health and Hospitals 1441 01:16:30,341 --> 01:16:32,802 has now basically halted 1442 01:16:32,844 --> 01:16:36,222 all nonconsensual and medically unnecessary surgeries 1443 01:16:36,264 --> 01:16:37,640 on intersex children. 1444 01:16:37,682 --> 01:16:40,643 But these surgeries, they're often happening 1445 01:16:40,685 --> 01:16:42,478 at private university hospitals... 1446 01:16:42,520 --> 01:16:45,898 -Right. -...one of which is-is Weill Cornell here in town. 1447 01:16:45,940 --> 01:16:50,027 And Weill Cornell happens to house Dr. Dix Poppas. 1448 01:16:51,154 --> 01:16:54,449 DALKE: Dr. Poppas does clitoral surgeries for children 1449 01:16:54,490 --> 01:16:56,159 with congenital adrenal hyperplasia. 1450 01:16:56,200 --> 01:16:59,328 They might have a clitoris that becomes-- 1451 01:16:59,370 --> 01:17:02,832 can sometimes grow so much that it looks like a penis. 1452 01:17:02,874 --> 01:17:07,837 Um, or might just be a little bit bigger than usual. 1453 01:17:07,879 --> 01:17:10,840 The goal is just to make the clitoris just look more normal, 1454 01:17:10,882 --> 01:17:13,676 within a very binary and narrow definition 1455 01:17:13,718 --> 01:17:15,386 of what it means to be normal. 1456 01:17:26,189 --> 01:17:28,524 It is not at all medically necessary. 1457 01:17:28,566 --> 01:17:31,944 There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that having 1458 01:17:31,986 --> 01:17:35,823 a bigger clitoris is harmful to someone's physical health. 1459 01:17:50,088 --> 01:17:51,714 ALICIA: Protests have been happening 1460 01:17:51,756 --> 01:17:53,383 about Dix Poppas specifically for years, 1461 01:17:53,424 --> 01:17:56,260 and yet things feel really different now. 1462 01:18:02,058 --> 01:18:04,477 -Okay, here comes River. -Yeah. 1463 01:18:06,479 --> 01:18:07,855 Um, can I have a marker? 1464 01:18:07,897 --> 01:18:09,232 SCOUT SILVERSTEIN: Yeah, where are they? 1465 01:18:09,273 --> 01:18:10,942 ALICIA: We have black markers, purple markers. 1466 01:18:10,983 --> 01:18:13,528 Do you have an idea for a sign? I'm struggling. 1467 01:18:13,569 --> 01:18:15,071 RIVER: So here's some. 1468 01:18:15,113 --> 01:18:17,740 "Unless I say, scalpels away." 1469 01:18:17,782 --> 01:18:19,075 -Yeah. -Ooh. 1470 01:18:19,117 --> 01:18:20,618 I love that one. I really like that one. 1471 01:18:20,660 --> 01:18:22,578 Do that, like, do that, do that next. 1472 01:18:22,620 --> 01:18:24,747 This is the one they made for me. 1473 01:18:24,789 --> 01:18:26,916 -"No testes, still my best me." -(laughter) 1474 01:18:26,958 --> 01:18:29,502 -Aw. Yeah, I like that, too. -I really dig that one. 1475 01:18:29,544 --> 01:18:31,045 Oh, this is good. 1476 01:18:31,087 --> 01:18:34,757 "To each their 'testoster-own.'" 1477 01:18:34,799 --> 01:18:37,802 -SCOUT: Oh, yeah, that's a good one. -(laughter) 1478 01:18:37,844 --> 01:18:39,262 RIVER: Oh, that's great. 1479 01:18:39,303 --> 01:18:40,972 I'm gonna do "Intersexual healing," y'all. 1480 01:18:41,013 --> 01:18:43,266 -I love that. -SCOUT: When you get that feeling. 1481 01:18:43,307 --> 01:18:45,518 (laughter) 1482 01:18:45,560 --> 01:18:46,644 That's a good one. 1483 01:18:46,686 --> 01:18:48,938 (overlapping chatter) 1484 01:18:48,980 --> 01:18:51,190 RIVER: Are you just coming up with these ideas? Wait. 1485 01:18:51,232 --> 01:18:52,859 ALICIA: I, like, thought about this for a few weeks. 1486 01:18:52,900 --> 01:18:54,485 CASEY OROZCO-POORE: I love that. 1487 01:18:54,527 --> 01:18:57,196 -RIVER: What are you doing? -ALICIA: What about the XY? 1488 01:19:02,827 --> 01:19:04,704 RIVER: Ooh. 1489 01:19:04,746 --> 01:19:08,207 I guess, I just wish that the people... 1490 01:19:08,249 --> 01:19:10,918 Anybody tomorrow, you know, going about their day, 1491 01:19:10,960 --> 01:19:13,129 has no idea what "intersex" means, 1492 01:19:13,171 --> 01:19:17,133 that they are provoked to-to research more about this 1493 01:19:17,175 --> 01:19:19,093 and to learn a little bit more. 1494 01:19:19,135 --> 01:19:20,928 SCOUT: I think we're at the cusp of something cool 1495 01:19:20,970 --> 01:19:23,306 with the New York City legislation. 1496 01:19:23,347 --> 01:19:25,308 That, like, that's the first legislation 1497 01:19:25,349 --> 01:19:27,810 that has required explicit action 1498 01:19:27,852 --> 01:19:29,937 to protect intersex people's bodily autonomy 1499 01:19:29,979 --> 01:19:31,981 in the United States. 1500 01:19:32,023 --> 01:19:34,901 I think there's a lot of opportunities for doctors 1501 01:19:34,942 --> 01:19:36,694 to develop into individuals 1502 01:19:36,736 --> 01:19:38,404 who could ally with the intersex community 1503 01:19:38,446 --> 01:19:42,325 and give medically necessary care without harming them. 1504 01:19:42,366 --> 01:19:45,286 This needs to be as common of an issue 1505 01:19:45,328 --> 01:19:48,247 included in the progressive, like, spectrum as trans people, 1506 01:19:48,289 --> 01:19:49,957 -as protecting trans youth... -RIVER: Yeah. 1507 01:19:49,999 --> 01:19:53,169 ...as any-- like, climate change. 1508 01:19:53,211 --> 01:19:54,545 SCOUT: I'm optimistic. 1509 01:19:54,587 --> 01:19:56,839 I just feel like it's a long game. 1510 01:19:56,881 --> 01:19:58,633 It's a long-ass game. 1511 01:19:58,674 --> 01:20:00,885 And we are fighting for it. 1512 01:20:00,927 --> 01:20:02,512 Because what's the other option? 1513 01:20:02,553 --> 01:20:04,222 There is no other option. 1514 01:20:04,263 --> 01:20:07,892 * If the sky that we look upon * 1515 01:20:10,061 --> 01:20:12,939 * Should tumble and fall * 1516 01:20:12,980 --> 01:20:17,652 * Or the mountains should crumble * 1517 01:20:17,693 --> 01:20:19,946 * To the sea... * 1518 01:20:19,987 --> 01:20:21,197 ALICIA: Hey, everyone. 1519 01:20:21,239 --> 01:20:23,366 I'm here at St. Catherine's Park. 1520 01:20:23,408 --> 01:20:26,661 We are right by the 68th Street entrance. 1521 01:20:26,702 --> 01:20:27,954 We're all ready to go. 1522 01:20:27,995 --> 01:20:29,414 If you have any questions, find someone 1523 01:20:29,455 --> 01:20:31,249 with an "End Intersex Surgery" shirt like me. 1524 01:20:31,290 --> 01:20:34,919 Let's get this started, and we'll see you soon. 1525 01:20:34,961 --> 01:20:36,087 -(lively chatter) -That would be really impressive. 1526 01:20:36,129 --> 01:20:37,672 Hi, friend. Come on in. 1527 01:20:39,298 --> 01:20:42,885 * Oh, darlin', darlin', stand... * 1528 01:20:42,927 --> 01:20:45,555 ALICIA: We are going to be marching together 1529 01:20:45,596 --> 01:20:46,556 to Weill Cornell. 1530 01:20:46,597 --> 01:20:47,932 Let's get this happening! 1531 01:20:47,974 --> 01:20:50,852 -What do we want? -GROUP: Body autonomy. 1532 01:20:50,893 --> 01:20:53,229 -When do we want it? -GROUP: Now. 1533 01:20:53,271 --> 01:20:55,064 SAIFA: These little fires, 1534 01:20:55,106 --> 01:20:56,983 these are the things that need to happen 1535 01:20:57,024 --> 01:20:59,026 in order to, sort of, start building, like, 1536 01:20:59,068 --> 01:21:02,071 this larger movement for bodily autonomy. 1537 01:21:02,113 --> 01:21:04,782 GROUP (chanting): Intersex surgery has got to go. 1538 01:21:04,824 --> 01:21:07,076 Hey, hey. Ho, ho. 1539 01:21:07,118 --> 01:21:08,745 ALICIA: We are starting to be heard 1540 01:21:08,786 --> 01:21:13,207 by politicians and the media in little, baby footsteps 1541 01:21:13,249 --> 01:21:14,792 that are actually momentous footsteps 1542 01:21:14,834 --> 01:21:17,503 when you look at how far we've come. 1543 01:21:17,545 --> 01:21:19,505 BRITT MORENO: The Austin City Council approved a resolution 1544 01:21:19,547 --> 01:21:23,718 condemning nonconsensual and medically unnecessary surgeries 1545 01:21:23,760 --> 01:21:25,428 on intersex children. 1546 01:21:25,470 --> 01:21:27,430 ALICIA: Thank you, Mayor, council members. 1547 01:21:27,472 --> 01:21:29,307 Thank you for all of you who have agreed 1548 01:21:29,348 --> 01:21:32,310 to support item 28 on the agenda, 1549 01:21:32,351 --> 01:21:34,771 ensuring that intersex people like me 1550 01:21:34,812 --> 01:21:37,106 can live and thrive as we deserve. 1551 01:21:37,148 --> 01:21:40,610 I do feel like a sea change is happening. 1552 01:21:40,651 --> 01:21:42,111 (applause) 1553 01:21:42,153 --> 01:21:45,865 I have a confession to make right off the bat. 1554 01:21:45,907 --> 01:21:48,326 I am intersex. 1555 01:21:48,367 --> 01:21:50,119 And I'm not gonna lie about it or deny it. 1556 01:21:50,161 --> 01:21:52,121 I kind of gained confidence... 1557 01:21:52,163 --> 01:21:55,124 ...in proclaiming that we are intersex, not invisible. 1558 01:21:55,166 --> 01:21:58,294 ...that I am intersex, that I have XY chromosomes. 1559 01:21:58,336 --> 01:22:00,880 Nobody knew that I was intersex. 1560 01:22:00,922 --> 01:22:02,382 I kept it very private. 1561 01:22:02,423 --> 01:22:05,468 So we're still here, and we're still gonna kick ass 1562 01:22:05,510 --> 01:22:07,303 and be powerful intersex activists. 1563 01:22:07,345 --> 01:22:09,180 (overlapping chatter) 1564 01:22:09,222 --> 01:22:12,475 We have a duty to fight, and we have a duty to win! 1565 01:22:12,517 --> 01:22:14,936 (chanting): End intersex surgery! 1566 01:22:14,977 --> 01:22:17,939 End intersex surgery! 1567 01:22:17,980 --> 01:22:20,525 (fading): End intersex surgery! 1568 01:22:20,566 --> 01:22:24,987 * Oh, stand by me * 1569 01:22:25,029 --> 01:22:28,324 * Oh, stand * 1570 01:22:28,366 --> 01:22:33,371 * Stand by me, stand by me * 1571 01:22:34,997 --> 01:22:36,707 -* Stand * -(whoops) 1572 01:22:38,751 --> 01:22:41,671 * By me. * 1573 01:22:52,432 --> 01:22:53,891 -(crowd cheers) -Thank you. 1574 01:22:53,933 --> 01:22:56,018 Thank you so much, everybody. 1575 01:22:56,060 --> 01:22:59,021 -I'm pissed the fuck off. -(crowd cheers) 1576 01:22:59,063 --> 01:23:02,483 I'm pissed the fuck off that we have to be here. 1577 01:23:03,234 --> 01:23:05,903 I was born without testicles. 1578 01:23:05,945 --> 01:23:08,156 The surgery that I had at 16 years old 1579 01:23:08,197 --> 01:23:10,867 was a complete violation of my human rights, 1580 01:23:10,908 --> 01:23:12,910 and now I live with it every day, 1581 01:23:12,952 --> 01:23:14,787 a reminder in between my groin 1582 01:23:14,829 --> 01:23:16,873 that I have prosthetic testicles 1583 01:23:16,914 --> 01:23:19,542 that were not decided by me. 1584 01:23:19,584 --> 01:23:22,336 -And that's fucked up! -That's fucked up! 1585 01:23:22,378 --> 01:23:24,213 -It's fucked up. -(crowd murmurs in agreement) 1586 01:23:26,424 --> 01:23:28,426 I've had suicidal ideation. 1587 01:23:28,468 --> 01:23:31,054 I've had problems with-with drugs and alcohol, 1588 01:23:31,095 --> 01:23:33,431 and it's all because of the shame and the trauma 1589 01:23:33,473 --> 01:23:36,392 that I experienced because I'm intersex. 1590 01:23:36,434 --> 01:23:38,895 We are amongst an intersex revolution, 1591 01:23:38,936 --> 01:23:42,899 led first and foremost by our trans siblings and family. 1592 01:23:42,940 --> 01:23:45,109 They have paved the way so now we have the strength 1593 01:23:45,151 --> 01:23:47,945 to stand in our courage and our bravery. 1594 01:23:47,987 --> 01:23:49,906 (crowd cheering) 1595 01:23:49,947 --> 01:23:51,866 We need all institutions everywhere, 1596 01:23:51,908 --> 01:23:53,326 not just in New York City, 1597 01:23:53,367 --> 01:23:56,496 in all, in all hospitals in the United States 1598 01:23:56,537 --> 01:23:59,207 and around the world, to end these surgeries. 1599 01:23:59,248 --> 01:24:01,751 (chanting): Unless I say, scalpels away. 1600 01:24:01,793 --> 01:24:04,253 (crowd joins in): Unless I say, scalpels away. 1601 01:24:04,295 --> 01:24:09,759 Unless I say, scalpels away. Unless I say, scalpels away. 1602 01:24:09,801 --> 01:24:12,595 Unless I say, scalpels away. 1603 01:24:13,805 --> 01:24:16,557 COHEN: D-Do you see that you're beautiful? 1604 01:24:18,434 --> 01:24:20,478 RIVER: It's so funny because sometimes, 1605 01:24:20,520 --> 01:24:24,357 honestly, I won't know what I look like. 1606 01:24:25,400 --> 01:24:27,777 And then I look at myself in the mirror. 1607 01:24:27,819 --> 01:24:30,238 I'm like, "Oh, my God. I'm stunning." 1608 01:24:33,366 --> 01:24:34,659 Since coming out as intersex, 1609 01:24:34,700 --> 01:24:36,744 I definitely feel more beautiful. 1610 01:24:36,786 --> 01:24:39,872 And I don't mean that just, like, oh, like... 1611 01:24:39,914 --> 01:24:41,374 like, I got hot. 1612 01:24:41,416 --> 01:24:44,502 But it was more like I got the confidence 1613 01:24:44,544 --> 01:24:48,464 to just start showing up however I-I'd want to show up. 1614 01:24:48,506 --> 01:24:52,552 Wow, I did it. 1615 01:24:53,553 --> 01:24:55,847 That is exciting. 1616 01:24:56,848 --> 01:24:58,725 Drama for the gala. 1617 01:24:58,766 --> 01:25:00,977 ("You Can't Judge a Book by the Cover" by Elise LeGrow playing) 1618 01:25:01,018 --> 01:25:04,564 * You can't judge an apple by looking at a tree * 1619 01:25:04,605 --> 01:25:08,568 * You can't judge honey by looking at the bee... * 1620 01:25:08,609 --> 01:25:11,821 I think the curse of being a filmmaker 1621 01:25:11,863 --> 01:25:15,992 is that now I'm super conscious of good light. 1622 01:25:16,033 --> 01:25:17,994 This is good light, honestly. 1623 01:25:18,035 --> 01:25:19,662 Thank you. (chuckles) 1624 01:25:21,247 --> 01:25:24,792 * No, you misjudge me * 1625 01:25:26,294 --> 01:25:27,670 * I look like a fighter * 1626 01:25:27,712 --> 01:25:30,006 -(shouts) -* But I'm a lover * 1627 01:25:30,048 --> 01:25:35,011 * Can't judge a book by looking at the cover, no, no... * 1628 01:25:35,053 --> 01:25:36,846 ALICIA: When you're intersex, 1629 01:25:36,888 --> 01:25:40,850 you're so defined by doctors and parents 1630 01:25:40,892 --> 01:25:44,187 and society's idea of who you should be, 1631 01:25:44,228 --> 01:25:46,981 you don't really learn till later in life 1632 01:25:47,023 --> 01:25:49,233 who you actually are. 1633 01:25:50,359 --> 01:25:53,154 SAIFA: I'm very up-front about who I am. 1634 01:25:53,196 --> 01:25:55,531 Some people are into it, some people are not. 1635 01:25:55,573 --> 01:25:58,242 But the people who are into it are into it. 1636 01:25:58,284 --> 01:26:01,079 Dating and romance, not a problem. 1637 01:26:01,120 --> 01:26:02,163 Not at all. 1638 01:26:02,205 --> 01:26:04,248 (laughing) 1639 01:26:05,666 --> 01:26:08,586 * I said you can't catch me * 1640 01:26:10,588 --> 01:26:12,048 * I look like a fighter * 1641 01:26:12,090 --> 01:26:14,884 * But I'm a lover * 1642 01:26:14,926 --> 01:26:16,386 * Can't judge a book * 1643 01:26:16,427 --> 01:26:19,180 -* By looking at the cover * -(laughing) 1644 01:26:19,222 --> 01:26:20,973 * No, can't catch me * 1645 01:26:22,266 --> 01:26:25,937 * I said you can't catch me... * 1646 01:26:26,938 --> 01:26:29,899 (chuckling): What? Is that okay? Is it okay? 1647 01:26:29,941 --> 01:26:32,026 * But I'm a lover * 1648 01:26:32,068 --> 01:26:33,486 * Can't judge a book * 1649 01:26:33,528 --> 01:26:37,281 -* By looking at the cover. * -(song ends) 1650 01:26:39,450 --> 01:26:42,161 MORRISON: All those thousands of operations you referred to, 1651 01:26:42,203 --> 01:26:43,663 the vast majority of them 1652 01:26:43,704 --> 01:26:45,748 were with people called intersexuals, as you know. 1653 01:26:45,790 --> 01:26:48,334 And you, yes, were the great guinea pig 1654 01:26:48,376 --> 01:26:51,087 for, uh, that kind of surgery, 1655 01:26:51,129 --> 01:26:53,423 and your case was probably misunderstood. 1656 01:26:53,464 --> 01:26:57,969 So, how do you think those thousands of people feel? 1657 01:26:58,010 --> 01:27:01,764 I think that they would like to be given the chance 1658 01:27:01,806 --> 01:27:03,433 and the opportunity to 1659 01:27:03,474 --> 01:27:06,602 be able to become who they want to become. 1660 01:27:06,644 --> 01:27:09,272 I figure they should wait until they're-- they know. 1661 01:27:09,313 --> 01:27:12,775 I mean, to me, if you wait just a few extra years, 1662 01:27:12,817 --> 01:27:15,027 you could save yourself a lifetime of pain 1663 01:27:15,069 --> 01:27:16,279 by doing it like that. 1664 01:27:16,320 --> 01:27:18,740 -By just waiting. -By just waiting. 1665 01:27:18,781 --> 01:27:21,617 I'm really looking forward to the day when a child is born, 1666 01:27:21,659 --> 01:27:24,662 instead of, "It's a boy," or, "It's a girl," 1667 01:27:24,704 --> 01:27:27,457 people put a-- I don't know-- 1668 01:27:27,498 --> 01:27:29,917 yellow sign on the front lawn that says, "It's a baby." 1669 01:27:29,959 --> 01:27:34,797 Um, I want anyone hearing this, watching this, 1670 01:27:34,839 --> 01:27:37,675 um, to know that we are ten people 1671 01:27:37,717 --> 01:27:40,178 gathered together in Northern California, 1672 01:27:40,219 --> 01:27:42,263 but it's just, it's just the beginning, 1673 01:27:42,305 --> 01:27:44,891 and I can just feel how this is going to grow. 1674 01:27:44,932 --> 01:27:47,810 And, uh, and-and we're gonna change, um, 1675 01:27:47,852 --> 01:27:50,521 the way that we're, the way that we're treated. 1676 01:27:50,563 --> 01:27:52,482 For liberation for lesbian, gay, 1677 01:27:52,523 --> 01:27:56,611 bisexual, transgender, queer and intersex individuals. 1678 01:27:56,652 --> 01:27:59,363 -That's what I'm about to sign. -(applause) 1679 01:28:16,964 --> 01:28:19,550 * * 1680 01:28:24,013 --> 01:28:26,432 I really do think before we die, 1681 01:28:26,474 --> 01:28:28,851 there's gonna be a huge revolution, 1682 01:28:28,893 --> 01:28:32,021 because it's already starting right now. 1683 01:28:32,730 --> 01:28:34,357 COHEN: This is beautiful. 1684 01:28:34,399 --> 01:28:36,025 But there's one other thing we want to film. 1685 01:28:36,067 --> 01:28:38,486 Wait. We're not doing the little frolicking? 1686 01:28:38,528 --> 01:28:39,862 You are doing a little frolicking. 1687 01:28:39,904 --> 01:28:41,948 That's what we're about to do right now. 1688 01:28:41,989 --> 01:28:44,867 -("Good as Hell" playing) -* I do my hair toss * 1689 01:28:44,909 --> 01:28:46,035 * Check my nails * 1690 01:28:46,077 --> 01:28:48,538 * Baby, how you feelin'? * 1691 01:28:48,579 --> 01:28:50,706 * Hair toss, check my nails * 1692 01:28:50,748 --> 01:28:53,376 * Baby, how you feelin'? * 1693 01:28:53,418 --> 01:28:55,795 * Whoo, child, tired of the foolish * 1694 01:28:55,837 --> 01:28:58,381 * Go on, dust your shoulders off, keep it moving * 1695 01:28:58,423 --> 01:29:00,842 * Yes, Lord, step into some new kicks * 1696 01:29:00,883 --> 01:29:03,553 * In there, swimwear, going to the pool quick * 1697 01:29:03,594 --> 01:29:05,388 * Come now and dry your eyes * 1698 01:29:05,430 --> 01:29:07,849 * I know you're a star, you can touch the sky * 1699 01:29:07,890 --> 01:29:10,518 * I know that it's hard, but you have to try * 1700 01:29:10,560 --> 01:29:13,396 * If you need advice, let me simplify * 1701 01:29:13,438 --> 01:29:18,401 * He don't love you anymore * 1702 01:29:18,443 --> 01:29:22,613 * Walk your fine self out the door * 1703 01:29:22,655 --> 01:29:25,616 * I do my hair toss, check my nails * 1704 01:29:25,658 --> 01:29:28,411 * I said, baby, how you feelin'? * 1705 01:29:28,453 --> 01:29:30,496 * Hair toss, check my nails * 1706 01:29:30,538 --> 01:29:33,124 * I said, baby, how you feelin'? * 1707 01:29:33,166 --> 01:29:34,792 * Whoo! * 1708 01:29:38,004 --> 01:29:40,965 * Whoo, girl, go on, kick off your shoes * 1709 01:29:41,007 --> 01:29:43,009 * Ya gotta take a deep breath, time to focus on you * 1710 01:29:43,051 --> 01:29:45,595 * All the big fights, long nights that you been through * 1711 01:29:45,636 --> 01:29:48,598 * I got a bottle of tequila I been saving for you * 1712 01:29:48,639 --> 01:29:50,308 * Boss up and change your life * 1713 01:29:50,349 --> 01:29:52,727 * Go and let it all hang out tonight * 1714 01:29:52,769 --> 01:29:54,979 * I know she treat me wrong, but we'll make it right * 1715 01:29:55,021 --> 01:29:58,399 * So go and let it all hang out tonight * 1716 01:29:58,441 --> 01:30:03,279 * They don't love you anymore * 1717 01:30:03,321 --> 01:30:09,202 * So walk your fine self out the door... * 1718 01:30:09,243 --> 01:30:11,662 (vocalizing) 1719 01:30:11,704 --> 01:30:14,874 * Check my nails, I said, baby, how you feelin'? * 1720 01:30:14,916 --> 01:30:17,835 * Hair toss, check my nails * 1721 01:30:17,877 --> 01:30:20,755 * I said, baby, how you feelin'? * 1722 01:30:20,797 --> 01:30:22,548 * Whoo! * 1723 01:30:24,509 --> 01:30:28,429 * I do my hair toss, check my nails * 1724 01:30:28,471 --> 01:30:30,473 * Baby, how you feelin'? * 1725 01:30:30,515 --> 01:30:32,642 * Hair toss, check my nails * 1726 01:30:32,683 --> 01:30:35,311 * Baby, how you feelin'? * 1727 01:30:35,353 --> 01:30:36,396 * Whoo! * 1728 01:30:36,437 --> 01:30:38,481 * Feelin' good as hell * 1729 01:30:38,523 --> 01:30:41,150 * Baby, how you feelin'? Good as hell. * 1730 01:30:41,192 --> 01:30:43,277 -(song ends) -(laughter) 1731 01:30:44,737 --> 01:30:46,489 RIVER: You didn't see that coming. 1732 01:30:46,531 --> 01:30:48,825 -(laughter) -COHEN: You guys got me. 1733 01:30:48,866 --> 01:30:50,910 * * 1734 01:31:20,189 --> 01:31:22,275 * * 1735 01:31:52,305 --> 01:31:54,307 * * 1736 01:32:02,273 --> 01:32:04,317 (music ends)