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["Love & Hate"
by Michael Kiwanuka playing]
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Albie Sachs is a South African activist,
lawyer, writer,
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and a former judge
appointed by Nelson Mandela
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to serve on the first
Constitutional Court of South Africa.
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During the struggle to end apartheid,
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Albie survived a bomb planted in his car
by the South African Security Service.
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He lost an arm and the sight in one eye.
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And yet years later,
when asked what the world needs most,
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his answer remains unflinching.
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[chuckles] The word "kindness"
keeps popping into my head, uh,
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and maybe because there's so much
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braggadocio, that's become popular.
That's been supported.
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But you refute it through
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uh, connecting up with others.
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Through contact with others,
through getting energies to...
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to point in the same direction,
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and through
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accepting and embracing diversity.
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This was inspired by Nelson Mandela,
who once said,
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"What counts in life
is not the mere fact that we have lived...
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[Meghan] ...it is what difference
we have made to the lives of others
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that will determine
the significance of the life we lead."
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[Harry] His life
left a lasting mark on the world.
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A legacy that has helped inspire
so many others to stand up...
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[Meghan] ...to fight for change
and to become leaders.
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[Harry] So this is in memory of Madiba.
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[Meghan] It was made to remind us
of the difference one person can make.
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[Harry] It's about people
who have made brave choices.
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Leaders who have walked alongside him
and followed in his footsteps.
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[Meghan] Caring for others,
working for a better and more equal world.
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[Harry] And giving inspiration
to the rest of us
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to live to lead.
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♪ You can't break me down
You can't take me down ♪
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♪ You can't take me down
You can't break me down ♪
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♪ You can't take me down ♪
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My first report card from school,
I was six years old,
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started with the words,
"Albert is a dreamy boy."
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And now, uh,
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70-plus years later,
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Albie is still a... [chuckles]
...dreamy boy.
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- [explosion]
- [glass shatters]
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- [car alarms blaring]
- [muffled shout]
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[news anchor] The latest target
of worldwide attacks on the ANC
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was opening his car door
when the bomb exploded.
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Albie Sachs was critically injured.
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[anchor 2] When he was taken to hospital,
he was given little chance of survival.
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Miraculously, he did survive.
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Shattered. He'd lost the sight in one eye.
One arm was amputated.
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Nevertheless, two months later,
the ANC leader remained optimistic
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about his homeland's future.
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Vengeance won't bring my arm back.
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Uh, and on the contrary,
vengeance will demean me
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and in a way, make it all for nothing.
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Uh, I think it's very important
that we maintain a positive outlook.
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Freedom will come
in South Africa. Freedom...
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We'll have freedom in our lifetime,
and we'll build a decent society there.
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That has to be our objective.
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["Lost in the Light" by Bahamas playing]
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[man 1] Our guest today
is Justice Albert L. Sachs,
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a member of
the South African Constitutional Court.
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♪ I'm lost in the light ♪
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Justice Sachs was a leader in the struggle
for human rights in South Africa
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and a freedom fighter
in the African National Congress.
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[man 2] His involvement
in this line of work
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landed him in trouble with the police.
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[man 1] Twice he was detained
without trial.
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[man 2] As he was subjected
to imprisonment,
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solitary confinement, detention,
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he endured a period of exile...
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[man 3] And eventually became the target
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of a state-sponsored
assassination attempt.
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[man 4] And then,
Nelson Mandela was released.
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[man 5] Here,
after 24 years in political exile,
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Albie Sachs being greeted by his mother
at Cape Town Airport.
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[man 2] He took part in the negotiations
that made South Africa
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a constitutional democracy,
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and he was appointed by Nelson Mandela
to serve in the Constitutional Court.
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Through his time as judge,
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he earned a reputation
as the conscience of the court.
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[woman] The way Albie lives his life,
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the lack of bitterness...
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Albie gives you faith in being human...
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in being South African.
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A white South African man,
you look at Albie, you think...
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Albie is what is possible.
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♪ Bein' free, leaving me on my own ♪
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There's a little story, age six,
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when I was packing to go into exile,
I found a card,
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a birthday card from my dad, Solly Sachs.
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Um, "Albie, may you grow up to be
a soldier in the fight for liberation."
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Now, I think that's pretty heavy
for a six-year-old,
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but that was the kind of universe
in which I grew up.
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[anchor] Laws made white people
officially superior,
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and the large Black majority
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faced discrimination
in every aspect of their lives.
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South Africa was overwhelmed
by that system of apartheid.
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Age 17, I'm in a hall
with overwhelmingly Black people,
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maybe 200, maybe five, ten whites,
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and people are singing,
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and they're singing freedom songs,
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and they're calling for volunteers to join
the Defiance of Unjust Laws Campaign.
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And I say to my friend,
[whispers] "Avi, I want to join."
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He goes, "You can't." "Why?"
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"Because you're white."
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"We're fighting racism."
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"It's a Black struggle
led by Black people."
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But nine months later,
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after I'd written my end-of-year exams,
during the break, I was leading a group of
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four of us young white people
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to sit on benches
marked "non-whites only."
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And becoming active and meeting
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and finding...
I think it was so important for me,
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the people I met
in the struggle against apartheid
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had energy, vitality, imagination.
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So much more interesting
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than the world that was mapped out for us
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of some kind of career to make money,
to get on, to be important.
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Becoming a lawyer,
uh, was part and parcel of the activism.
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A whole range of different cases,
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but a bulk, the core of the work I did,
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involved people being
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punished or threatened with punishment,
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because of their views,
because of their stand against apartheid,
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or because they didn't have the documents.
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They didn't comply with the multitude
of laws that oppressed Black people.
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It was dreadful.
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1960, the year of the massacre
at Sharpeville...
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[anchor] At Sharpeville, police fired
into a crowd of unarmed demonstrators.
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[siren wailing]
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[Sachs] Sixty-nine people shot dead,
mostly in their back.
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The ANC,
African National Congress, banned,
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everything driven underground,
impossible state of emergency,
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and then things became much, much grimmer.
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You could be plucked out of your home,
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your work, walking in the streets,
at the whim of a police officer.
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I saw my clients
being picked up one by one.
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You're locked up
under what's called the 90-Day Law.
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They can keep you,
without access to lawyers,
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without access to court,
to family, to anybody, for 90 days
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on the basis that they suspect you have
information that would aid terrorists.
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[interviewer] Because you were
fighting this injustice,
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not just as a lawyer
representing Black people,
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but as an activist,
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they came after you too.
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You join a struggle.
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You're a volunteer.
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You become part of a culture
of resistance.
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So it was the people fighting the Nazis,
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the partisans who identified with them
very strongly in Europe during the war.
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Uh...
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the people who'd been to jail,
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who'd written books about
their jail experiences, you read them,
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and you prepare yourself for the moment,
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"So this is what it's like to be in jail."
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And you're not prepared.
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You're not prepared.
You're not prepared for isolation.
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You cope because,
in a sense, there's no alternative.
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What can you do? You can cry.
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Uh, there is an alternative.
You can collaborate. You can capitulate.
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So the fight then
is to prevent yourself from cracking up
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and giving information away, and...
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After a while,
you don't even know why you're in jail.
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You don't even know why you're...
You just know, somehow,
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the big phrases
that were so powerful and strong,
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that seemed to be so meaningful,
become empty.
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Freedom? What is free... It's nonsense.
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You have a little,
extremely narcissistic, enclosed world
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of just you, yourself,
and that pain you're feeling.
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On a good day, I would be depressed.
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On a good day, just depressed.
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On a bad day...
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not quite suicidal but close to that,
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in a state of total despair.
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[metal door bangs]
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[keys jangle]
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One day, I hear whistling.
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I can't believe it
because it's not just the general noise.
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Prison is noisy.
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People screaming, shouting,
doors being slammed, everybody shouting,
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and I hear whistling,
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and I whistle back...
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[whistles "Symphony No.9 in E minor"
by Dvořák]
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And I hear from far away in the prison...
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[distant whistling of the same symphony]
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I don't even know who it is.
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["Symphony No.9 in E minor"
by Dvořák plays]
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And this was a wonderful form of contact.
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And then I would do exercises
as part of my regime,
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and I'm in the middle
of trying to do 100 press-ups,
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and I hear the whistling,
and I say, "No, I'm only up to 75!"
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"Please wait, wait, wait! Can't you wait?"
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And then we had to,
kind of, establish a time during the day
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when we would be ready for the whistling,
and I never found out who it was.
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And then I'm released after 90 days.
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I'm walking out to the street, and...
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I'm locked up again.
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[metal door crashes]
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They take my tie away.
They take my watch away.
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And another 78 days.
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And then I'm released,
not knowing why, and I was so...
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triumphant, euphoric,
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that I ran all the way
from the center of Cape Town to Clifton.
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Maybe...
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[symphony continues]
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...six, seven, eight miles. I'd never run
that distance in my life before.
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Flung myself into the sea.
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My colleagues came, dressed in their suits
with their shiny shoes, down on the beach.
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Uh...
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And they thought I was, like, crazy.
I was a bit crazy.
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I seemed to be triumphant,
but inside, something was broken.
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You never get over solitary confinement.
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You never.
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[symphony ends]
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And then, years later,
now I'm in exile,
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and...
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I'm blown up.
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[poignant music plays]
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My friend, Ruth First,
had been killed by a letter bomb.
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There was a portion
of the cemetery in Maputo
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where many South Africans were buried.
Over 20 who'd been killed.
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And each time we went there, we wondered,
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"That little space over there,
is that for me?"
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[woman] The very fact that he was such
an important opponent of apartheid
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meant that he was in enormous danger
all the time.
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[Sachs] I felt they wouldn't go for me.
I was so obviously a soft target,
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uh, and there would be
a reaction against it, and
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I was wrong.
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[muffled shouting]
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[anchor] The explosion was heard
throughout the Mozambique capital Maputo.
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The booby trap was suspected
to be the work of South African agents.
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His car was meant to be his grave.
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- [people yelling]
- [car alarm wailing]
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[Sachs] I feel arms pulling me, and
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I say, "Leave me, leave me.
I'd rather die here."
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And I think I'm being kidnapped
and taken over the border to South Africa.
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Total darkness.
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Something terrible's happened.
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I don't know what it is.
I hear a voice in the darkness saying,
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"Albie,
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this is Ivo Garrido speaking."
241
00:14:31,287 --> 00:14:33,539
"You're in Maputo Central Hospital."
242
00:14:34,957 --> 00:14:38,752
"Your arm is in lamentable condition.
You must face the future with courage."
243
00:14:38,836 --> 00:14:40,880
I say into the darkness, "What happened?"
244
00:14:41,380 --> 00:14:43,632
And a woman's voice says,
"It was a car bomb."
245
00:14:44,466 --> 00:14:48,137
I faint back into obscurity
but with a sense of joy.
246
00:14:48,220 --> 00:14:50,097
I'd thought I was being kidnapped,
247
00:14:50,764 --> 00:14:52,725
to be thrown into jail in South Africa.
248
00:14:52,808 --> 00:14:56,937
And I knew I was safe
in the hands of FRELIMO,
249
00:14:57,646 --> 00:14:59,273
the government of Mozambique.
250
00:15:00,816 --> 00:15:01,816
And...
251
00:15:04,028 --> 00:15:05,529
some time passes.
252
00:15:07,489 --> 00:15:09,533
I'm feeling very light.
I'm lying on my back.
253
00:15:09,617 --> 00:15:12,995
I can't see anything. My eyes are covered.
And I tell myself a joke.
254
00:15:13,495 --> 00:15:16,790
Uh, it's about Hymie Cohen.
Like me, he's a Jew.
255
00:15:16,874 --> 00:15:18,751
He falls off a bus, he gets up,
256
00:15:20,085 --> 00:15:22,796
and... his hand moves over his...
257
00:15:24,048 --> 00:15:25,132
past his body like this.
258
00:15:25,215 --> 00:15:27,635
Someone says, "Hymie,
I didn't know you were Catholic!"
259
00:15:27,718 --> 00:15:29,386
"What do you mean 'Catholic'?"
260
00:15:30,220 --> 00:15:31,555
"Spectacles,
261
00:15:31,639 --> 00:15:33,015
testicles,
262
00:15:33,098 --> 00:15:34,642
wallet, and watch."
263
00:15:34,725 --> 00:15:37,937
[chuckles] It's an old joke.
Not normally told in those circumstances,
264
00:15:38,020 --> 00:15:41,023
and I started with testicles,
seemed to be in order.
265
00:15:41,106 --> 00:15:43,067
Wallet, okay.
266
00:15:43,150 --> 00:15:44,610
Spectacles...
267
00:15:46,570 --> 00:15:48,948
If there's a crater there,
I'm in big trouble.
268
00:15:49,031 --> 00:15:51,659
Okay, and I've lost an arm.
269
00:15:51,742 --> 00:15:53,452
I've only lost an arm.
270
00:15:53,535 --> 00:15:55,746
That moment
every freedom fighter's waiting for.
271
00:15:55,829 --> 00:15:58,540
"Will they come for me today?
Will I be brave?"
272
00:15:58,624 --> 00:16:02,086
They'd come for me, they'd tried
to kill me, and I had survived.
273
00:16:02,169 --> 00:16:03,671
I felt joyous and triumphant.
274
00:16:03,754 --> 00:16:09,718
And that was in April 7th,
April 8th, 1988,
275
00:16:09,802 --> 00:16:11,178
and I still feel that.
276
00:16:11,679 --> 00:16:14,932
It blew away
the misery of solitary confinement.
277
00:16:15,015 --> 00:16:17,643
It gave a whole different
perspective on life.
278
00:16:17,726 --> 00:16:19,728
I somehow came back into the world.
279
00:16:19,812 --> 00:16:21,563
I can't explain it fully,
280
00:16:21,647 --> 00:16:25,693
and I'm a little bit worried
there might be a collapse afterwards.
281
00:16:26,485 --> 00:16:29,655
Uh, clearly now I've reached the stage
where I have to,
282
00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:32,199
uh, rebuild myself,
283
00:16:33,033 --> 00:16:36,495
physically and emotionally.
284
00:16:36,996 --> 00:16:37,996
And it was like...
285
00:16:39,790 --> 00:16:43,377
learning to write again.
"Look, Mommy. I can write!"
286
00:16:44,128 --> 00:16:47,673
Uh, learning to stand.
"Look, Mommy. I can walk. I can stand."
287
00:16:47,756 --> 00:16:52,386
There was something very joyous
about the recovery after the bomb.
288
00:16:54,179 --> 00:16:56,181
[poignant music]
289
00:16:59,893 --> 00:17:00,978
And, um...
290
00:17:02,771 --> 00:17:05,941
I receive a letter.
291
00:17:06,025 --> 00:17:08,235
I'm lying in a hospital bed in London,
292
00:17:08,318 --> 00:17:12,823
and it says, "Don't worry, Comrade Albie.
We will avenge you."
293
00:17:13,323 --> 00:17:14,783
"Signed, Bobby Naidoo."
294
00:17:15,659 --> 00:17:17,161
And I think, "avenge" me?
295
00:17:17,244 --> 00:17:20,289
We gonna cut off the arms?
We gonna blind in one eye?
296
00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:22,875
Is that the country we're fighting for?
297
00:17:22,958 --> 00:17:26,628
If we get freedom, if we get democracy,
we get the rule of law,
298
00:17:26,712 --> 00:17:29,840
that will be my soft vengeance.
299
00:17:29,923 --> 00:17:32,051
Roses and lilies will grow out of my arm.
300
00:17:41,518 --> 00:17:45,230
Today, I'm able to announce
far-reaching decisions.
301
00:17:45,314 --> 00:17:48,400
The prohibition
of the African National Congress,
302
00:17:48,484 --> 00:17:49,943
the Pan Africanist Congress,
303
00:17:50,027 --> 00:17:52,988
the South African Communist Party,
is being rescinded.
304
00:17:53,072 --> 00:17:55,783
[politicians cheer and applaud]
305
00:17:55,866 --> 00:17:57,367
[man] Order! Order!
306
00:17:57,451 --> 00:18:01,413
[De Klerk] People serving prison sentences
merely because they were members
307
00:18:01,497 --> 00:18:04,917
of one of these organizations
will be identified and released.
308
00:18:05,417 --> 00:18:09,588
In this connection,
the government has taken a firm decision
309
00:18:09,671 --> 00:18:12,257
to release Mr. Mandela unconditionally.
310
00:18:12,341 --> 00:18:15,219
["Khala My Friend" by Amanaz playing]
311
00:18:16,804 --> 00:18:21,433
[crowd chanting joyfully]
312
00:18:21,517 --> 00:18:24,144
[jubilant whistling]
313
00:18:29,817 --> 00:18:32,611
♪ Hello, Khala, my friend ♪
314
00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,408
♪ Where do you think you're going to? ♪
315
00:18:40,744 --> 00:18:44,790
♪ And the road you're taking
It has no end ♪
316
00:18:45,916 --> 00:18:49,628
♪ Khala, my friend, come back to me ♪
317
00:18:51,505 --> 00:18:56,009
♪ Khala, my friend
'Cause I'm gonna miss you ♪
318
00:18:56,093 --> 00:18:57,928
[Sachs] I came back to South Africa.
319
00:18:58,011 --> 00:19:00,222
♪ Khala, my friend ♪
320
00:19:02,558 --> 00:19:04,184
♪ The world is full of... ♪
321
00:19:04,268 --> 00:19:06,228
Our vote is equal for the first time.
322
00:19:06,311 --> 00:19:09,481
[anchor] At this moment,
in South Africa's newly born democracy,
323
00:19:09,565 --> 00:19:13,652
its most revered architect made certain
it was well-recorded for posterity,
324
00:19:13,735 --> 00:19:16,280
declaring it the fulfillment
of his lifetime struggle.
325
00:19:16,363 --> 00:19:20,993
I have fought very firmly
against white domination.
326
00:19:21,785 --> 00:19:26,707
I have fought very firmly
against Black domination.
327
00:19:27,541 --> 00:19:32,254
I cherish the idea of a new South Africa.
328
00:19:32,838 --> 00:19:35,841
[Sachs] That's the achievement
of the things we were fighting for.
329
00:19:37,426 --> 00:19:39,678
That's the validation of everything.
330
00:19:42,222 --> 00:19:45,559
And then I'm appointed
to the Constitutional Court
331
00:19:45,642 --> 00:19:47,853
to guard those things
we'd been fighting for.
332
00:19:47,936 --> 00:19:50,814
The last time I appeared in court...
333
00:19:53,901 --> 00:19:55,152
was to hear
334
00:19:57,154 --> 00:19:58,447
whether or not
335
00:20:00,073 --> 00:20:02,034
I was going to be sentenced to death.
336
00:20:03,577 --> 00:20:07,873
Today, I speak not as an accused...
337
00:20:10,083 --> 00:20:11,293
but to inaugurate
338
00:20:12,753 --> 00:20:15,422
a court South Africa has never had.
339
00:20:17,841 --> 00:20:18,884
A court
340
00:20:20,260 --> 00:20:21,929
on which hinges
341
00:20:22,763 --> 00:20:25,349
the future of our democracy.
342
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:31,480
And then, perhaps to cap
the whole process of soft vengeance,
343
00:20:31,980 --> 00:20:34,483
I meet the man
who organized the bomb in my car,
344
00:20:34,983 --> 00:20:37,819
Henri van der Westhuizen,
going to the Truth Commission.
345
00:20:44,952 --> 00:20:48,163
And he wants to see me
before he goes there,
346
00:20:48,247 --> 00:20:51,291
and he comes up
to my chambers office, as a judge.
347
00:20:52,459 --> 00:20:54,711
We have an extraordinary conversation.
348
00:20:54,795 --> 00:20:58,757
He tells me about his youth,
and how good he was at school,
349
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,093
and how quickly he got ahead in the army.
350
00:21:01,176 --> 00:21:02,761
He's so proud. He got ahead.
351
00:21:02,844 --> 00:21:06,014
He became a top member of the hit squad.
[chuckles in disbelief]
352
00:21:06,098 --> 00:21:08,392
And this is where the curiosity in me
353
00:21:09,268 --> 00:21:10,978
is just, like, rather amazed.
354
00:21:11,061 --> 00:21:15,357
There's a naivety to his expression.
355
00:21:15,983 --> 00:21:18,527
And... But he's going
to the Truth Commission.
356
00:21:18,610 --> 00:21:20,195
He's gonna tell the story.
357
00:21:20,821 --> 00:21:23,282
It required courage
for a soldier to break ranks,
358
00:21:23,365 --> 00:21:24,866
to join the new South Africa.
359
00:21:26,535 --> 00:21:31,123
I forgot about him,
and six months later, I'm at a party,
360
00:21:32,124 --> 00:21:34,751
and, uh, I hear a voice saying, "Albie!"
361
00:21:34,835 --> 00:21:37,087
I look around.
It's Henri. I can't believe it.
362
00:21:37,170 --> 00:21:39,923
He's beaming. He said,
"I went to the Truth Commission,
363
00:21:40,007 --> 00:21:42,050
and I met Bobby...",
the one who'd written to me,
364
00:21:42,134 --> 00:21:44,761
"...and Sue and Farouk,
and I told them everything,
365
00:21:44,845 --> 00:21:48,390
and you said, one day, if we met,
maybe you could shake my hand."
366
00:21:48,932 --> 00:21:50,934
And I put out my hand. I shook his hand.
367
00:21:51,435 --> 00:21:53,645
He went away elated. I almost fainted.
368
00:21:54,271 --> 00:21:57,774
But I heard afterwards
that he'd broken away from the party,
369
00:21:57,858 --> 00:22:00,235
he'd gone home and cried for two weeks.
370
00:22:00,777 --> 00:22:03,739
I don't know if it's true.
I want to believe it's true.
371
00:22:03,822 --> 00:22:06,158
I'd rather not check up
and find it's not true.
372
00:22:06,241 --> 00:22:09,369
But for me, that would be more important
than sending him to jail.
373
00:22:09,870 --> 00:22:12,956
Restorative justice,
different forms of accountability,
374
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,375
we're now starting to live
in the same country.
375
00:22:15,459 --> 00:22:17,502
For me, that's miraculous.
376
00:22:18,879 --> 00:22:24,051
[interviewer] How is it that you found
this capacity for love and forgiveness,
377
00:22:24,134 --> 00:22:25,302
and for...
378
00:22:26,845 --> 00:22:28,430
optimism, generosity?
379
00:22:28,513 --> 00:22:30,265
Where did this come from?
380
00:22:31,933 --> 00:22:34,353
I get asked that all the time,
381
00:22:34,436 --> 00:22:38,940
and I don't want to frighten it away
by interrogating it too much.
382
00:22:39,024 --> 00:22:42,527
It's something that's inside you.
It's with you. Uh...
383
00:22:46,239 --> 00:22:49,409
1990, Mandela's released.
384
00:22:49,493 --> 00:22:51,912
I'm about to go back to South Africa,
385
00:22:51,995 --> 00:22:55,832
and an American journalist,
Tony Lewis, said, uh,
386
00:22:55,916 --> 00:22:59,711
"Albie, you must be very angry
now you're going back?"
387
00:22:59,795 --> 00:23:01,171
And he's looking at my arm.
388
00:23:01,922 --> 00:23:05,884
I said, "You know, Tony, I used to feel
I'm a failed revolutionary."
389
00:23:05,967 --> 00:23:07,177
I didn't have that rage.
390
00:23:07,260 --> 00:23:10,972
I should've wanted to pick up a knife
and plunge it in the back of the guards.
391
00:23:11,056 --> 00:23:13,016
And I saw them as people doing their job.
392
00:23:13,100 --> 00:23:16,103
They weren't the worst
of the interrogators and so on.
393
00:23:16,770 --> 00:23:19,147
And I thought I was a failure.
394
00:23:19,231 --> 00:23:23,819
He said, "You can relax.
I've asked the same question of Mandela."
395
00:23:24,945 --> 00:23:26,321
"He's given a similar answer."
396
00:23:26,405 --> 00:23:31,326
"And Sisulu and Ahmed Kathrada
and Albertina Sisulu."
397
00:23:31,410 --> 00:23:33,286
So I realized it's part of a culture
398
00:23:33,954 --> 00:23:37,499
and all of us involved
in this big dream of a free South Africa.
399
00:23:37,999 --> 00:23:41,336
Meeting others, connecting up with others,
400
00:23:41,420 --> 00:23:44,798
and finding marvelous sides to ourselves
through acting with others,
401
00:23:44,881 --> 00:23:49,052
and it's an optimism
that we can live together in one country.
402
00:23:49,553 --> 00:23:54,099
There's a very strong
African concept called Ubuntu.
403
00:23:54,182 --> 00:23:56,601
I'm a person because you're a person.
404
00:23:56,685 --> 00:24:01,064
I can't separate my humanity from
acknowledging respect to your humanity.
405
00:24:01,148 --> 00:24:03,442
The interdependence of human beings.
406
00:24:04,401 --> 00:24:09,906
And so much of this
came from growing up in a struggle
407
00:24:09,990 --> 00:24:12,534
that's been led
by African people with that...
408
00:24:12,617 --> 00:24:17,330
It's not just the singing and the mood.
It's the interactions, uh, the grace.
409
00:24:17,414 --> 00:24:21,293
It's not to say terrible things
didn't happen and don't happen, they do.
410
00:24:21,877 --> 00:24:24,588
But there was something
of that at the core.
411
00:24:29,217 --> 00:24:31,219
For me, conscience is number one.
412
00:24:31,303 --> 00:24:34,639
Comes before bread,
comes before speech rights.
413
00:24:34,723 --> 00:24:37,350
Conscience,
it's the core thing of who you are.
414
00:24:37,976 --> 00:24:41,855
And that, if you like,
that gyroscope inside you
415
00:24:42,355 --> 00:24:47,819
that centers you and that enables you
416
00:24:49,654 --> 00:24:50,654
to live with a...
417
00:24:52,157 --> 00:24:53,575
significant virtue.
418
00:24:54,201 --> 00:24:58,580
Not because you're obeying commandments
and going through rituals,
419
00:24:58,663 --> 00:25:00,332
but because something inside...
420
00:25:00,916 --> 00:25:01,958
it's correct.
421
00:25:02,042 --> 00:25:02,876
It's right.
422
00:25:02,959 --> 00:25:07,464
It fits in with all those things
that have made you feel human
423
00:25:07,547 --> 00:25:12,260
and a person of dignity and courage
and style and bravura and imagination,
424
00:25:12,344 --> 00:25:15,847
and all those things that are lovely
and nice about a person.
425
00:25:15,931 --> 00:25:18,350
Uh, all of them radiate around that,
426
00:25:18,975 --> 00:25:23,438
and I found it hard to lie
even to the security police.
427
00:25:26,149 --> 00:25:29,236
Even then it was difficult
for me to lie because...
428
00:25:30,111 --> 00:25:32,656
It wasn't, "You're naughty to tell a lie."
429
00:25:32,739 --> 00:25:35,158
It was violating something inside me.
430
00:25:35,242 --> 00:25:36,326
Face the truth,
431
00:25:36,910 --> 00:25:39,246
uh, whatever the consequences.
432
00:25:39,871 --> 00:25:42,874
["Call it Dreaming"
by Iron & Wine playing]
433
00:25:43,375 --> 00:25:44,709
Live your life
434
00:25:44,793 --> 00:25:45,794
for yourself.
435
00:25:46,878 --> 00:25:48,838
Don't even model yourself on
436
00:25:49,548 --> 00:25:52,551
Albie, who's speaking to you
about how to live your life.
437
00:25:52,634 --> 00:25:54,761
Model yourself on yourself.
438
00:25:54,844 --> 00:25:57,764
In that sense, don't follow your dreams,
439
00:25:57,847 --> 00:25:59,933
follow your life. Your dreams follow you.
440
00:26:01,101 --> 00:26:02,769
Whatever that means, "your life,"
441
00:26:03,562 --> 00:26:07,232
uh, and explore and allow it to reach out
442
00:26:07,315 --> 00:26:08,817
and to take chances and...
443
00:26:09,943 --> 00:26:11,111
and risks.
444
00:26:12,612 --> 00:26:16,616
Not to always go
for the well-traveled road, the cozy way.
445
00:26:17,409 --> 00:26:19,202
At one stage, I was telling myself,
446
00:26:19,286 --> 00:26:23,498
"If you've got a choice
about some important decision
447
00:26:24,749 --> 00:26:27,752
and the one journey's gonna be hard
448
00:26:28,336 --> 00:26:30,422
and the other one's gonna be much easier,
449
00:26:30,922 --> 00:26:32,007
take the hard one."
450
00:26:33,174 --> 00:26:36,303
Because you've done more
than just get from point A to point B.
451
00:26:36,386 --> 00:26:38,805
You've traversed some difficulties.
452
00:26:38,888 --> 00:26:41,641
You've explored, you've risked,
you've gained something.
453
00:26:43,852 --> 00:26:46,271
- [unheard dialogue]
- [interviewer] Last question.
454
00:26:46,771 --> 00:26:52,235
What advice, if you had the chance
to give your 20-year-old self some advice,
455
00:26:52,319 --> 00:26:53,528
looking back on your life,
456
00:26:53,612 --> 00:26:55,822
if you could say one thing
to that young man...
457
00:26:55,905 --> 00:26:56,906
I could say...
458
00:26:58,700 --> 00:27:00,035
"Keep on dreaming."
459
00:27:01,453 --> 00:27:02,537
"Keep on dreaming."
460
00:27:02,621 --> 00:27:08,084
♪ You can have mine ♪