1 00:00:00,333 --> 00:00:05,633 Your dogs in fact killed ten of your emotional support hens. 2 00:00:05,700 --> 00:00:06,667 I call them my girls. 3 00:00:06,734 --> 00:00:09,033 [narrator] Now, on Tribunal Justice... 4 00:00:09,100 --> 00:00:11,867 Your two dogs are just mauling on these chickens. 5 00:00:11,934 --> 00:00:16,433 The chickens allowed me to kind of be at peace for a minute or two or ten. 6 00:00:16,500 --> 00:00:19,700 Nobody can really say how much somebody is struggling with something. 7 00:00:19,767 --> 00:00:23,834 Keeping these chickens was actually a recommendation of his doctor. 8 00:00:23,900 --> 00:00:25,233 He typed that up. 9 00:00:25,300 --> 00:00:26,433 The man served our country. 10 00:00:26,500 --> 00:00:29,166 And you challenge whether or not he's telling the truth? 11 00:00:29,233 --> 00:00:31,066 Did you ever serve in the military? 12 00:00:31,967 --> 00:00:32,967 Shame on you. 13 00:00:56,967 --> 00:00:59,967 [narrator] Today's case was filed in Chico, California. 14 00:01:00,967 --> 00:01:03,767 Your Honor, this is Case #3094 on the calendar 15 00:01:03,834 --> 00:01:06,734 in the matter of McKinsey v. Hunt/Dwelle. 16 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,433 Parties have been sworn in, Judge, you may be seated. 17 00:01:09,500 --> 00:01:10,934 Ladies, have a seat, please. 18 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:13,166 -[Levy] Thank you, Byrd. Mr. McKinsey. -[Byrd] Mm-hm. 19 00:01:13,233 --> 00:01:16,033 You're here suing both Mr. Hunt... 20 00:01:16,100 --> 00:01:17,800 -Correct. -...and Mr. Dwelle. 21 00:01:17,867 --> 00:01:19,934 -Dwelle. -For $10,000. 22 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:24,533 Because it was Mr. Dwelle’s two dogs that left his property 23 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:29,900 and killed 10 of your emotional support hens. 24 00:01:29,967 --> 00:01:34,000 You're suing Mr. Hunt, because he is the owner of the property, 25 00:01:34,066 --> 00:01:36,300 and he rents his property to Mr. Dwelle. 26 00:01:36,366 --> 00:01:40,366 And you're suing them for negligent infliction of emotional distress, 27 00:01:40,433 --> 00:01:42,366 -as well as straight negligence. -Correct. 28 00:01:42,433 --> 00:01:46,233 Mr. Dwelle and Mr. Hunt, it's your combined position 29 00:01:46,300 --> 00:01:50,265 that you owe nothing, because the homeowner association rules 30 00:01:50,333 --> 00:01:53,133 prohibit chickens on anyone's property. 31 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:57,400 You also indicated that you offered Mr. Dwelle $300, 32 00:01:57,467 --> 00:01:58,900 the cost to replace them, 33 00:01:58,967 --> 00:02:02,800 because you do not dispute that your dogs in fact, killed the chickens, correct? 34 00:02:02,867 --> 00:02:05,567 -Yes, they did. -And that offer was rejected. 35 00:02:05,633 --> 00:02:07,000 -Right. -[Levy] Okay. 36 00:02:07,066 --> 00:02:08,433 Let's start right in the beginning. 37 00:02:08,500 --> 00:02:12,734 Mr. McKinsey, according to your complaint, you are an Air Force veteran, 38 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:15,900 and you were honorably discharged after suffering 39 00:02:15,967 --> 00:02:18,466 -a catastrophic injury while on duty. -Correct. 40 00:02:18,533 --> 00:02:22,033 You were diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder 41 00:02:22,100 --> 00:02:27,266 due, in part, to your military service and the injury that you received. 42 00:02:27,333 --> 00:02:31,867 I received that diagnosis in 1984 when the accident occurred. 43 00:02:31,934 --> 00:02:36,033 Um, I got diagnosed with PTSD and depression. 44 00:02:36,100 --> 00:02:41,433 Were you, in fact, under the care of a duly licensed physician and psychiatrist 45 00:02:41,500 --> 00:02:43,500 for that disorder and depression? 46 00:02:43,567 --> 00:02:45,500 Yes, sir, since 1984. 47 00:02:45,567 --> 00:02:47,333 -And that's been continuous? -Yes, sir. 48 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:49,800 When did you purchase these--? 49 00:02:49,867 --> 00:02:52,333 And I use the word "chicken," but they're really hens. 50 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:54,000 I call them my girls. 51 00:02:54,066 --> 00:02:56,567 When was it that you purchased your girls? 52 00:02:56,633 --> 00:03:01,300 March of 2023, at two days old. 53 00:03:01,367 --> 00:03:03,600 Let's take a look at video 54 00:03:03,667 --> 00:03:06,367 that you provided us with prior to coming in today, P2. 55 00:03:06,433 --> 00:03:08,667 Can you tell us what you provided? 56 00:03:08,734 --> 00:03:11,200 We had a big bin probably about the size of the table, 57 00:03:11,266 --> 00:03:14,567 and I had a heat lamp in there you keep it a certain temperature, 58 00:03:14,633 --> 00:03:18,867 and there's 12 hens. At that time, they were probably four days old. 59 00:03:18,934 --> 00:03:23,633 I raised them like this until they were approximately three months old, 60 00:03:23,700 --> 00:03:27,066 when they had enough feathers to go outside and care for themselves. 61 00:03:27,133 --> 00:03:30,767 Our grandkids, at that time, they would come and play with them. 62 00:03:30,834 --> 00:03:35,233 They would be out of their cage or their container, 63 00:03:35,300 --> 00:03:40,800 and they would-- [voice breaking] They would start playing with the chickens. 64 00:03:40,867 --> 00:03:45,834 And um, and at the time, I was doing poorly with mental health issues. 65 00:03:46,734 --> 00:03:51,166 And it was a way that I could relate to people. 66 00:03:51,233 --> 00:03:54,033 [Levy] And was this a recommendation from your psychiatrist 67 00:03:54,100 --> 00:03:57,966 as a result of your post-traumatic stress disorder diagnoses? 68 00:03:58,033 --> 00:04:01,066 Yes, I think the way he put it was, 69 00:04:01,133 --> 00:04:04,700 "You better get yourself some chickens or a dog or something, 70 00:04:04,767 --> 00:04:06,533 before you really hurt yourself." 71 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:08,467 Now, you're from the state of California, correct? 72 00:04:08,533 --> 00:04:11,533 -Yes, sir. -The law is not super clear... 73 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:13,000 -Mm-hmm. -...on what type of damages 74 00:04:13,066 --> 00:04:15,166 you're entitled to. Is it just property, 75 00:04:15,233 --> 00:04:18,834 and therefore you're entitled to nothing but the replacement value? 76 00:04:18,899 --> 00:04:21,200 Or are you entitled to emotional distress, 77 00:04:21,266 --> 00:04:23,367 like you're suing the Defendants for today? 78 00:04:23,433 --> 00:04:25,967 -Mm-hmm. -Some courts say yes, some say no. 79 00:04:26,033 --> 00:04:27,467 It's very fact-specific. 80 00:04:27,533 --> 00:04:30,300 And what I want you to do, I want you to tell us 81 00:04:30,367 --> 00:04:34,400 what some of your symptoms were prior to getting your chickens, 82 00:04:34,467 --> 00:04:36,033 and then after. 83 00:04:36,100 --> 00:04:41,567 I'm not proud of it, but I was extremely abusive to my family with anger and rage. 84 00:04:41,633 --> 00:04:46,133 Um, when I had the chickens, I would be willing to go outside. 85 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:50,100 I have a fear of going outside because of my anger. 86 00:04:50,166 --> 00:04:54,800 And I was able to go outside and be what I felt would be a human to go outside. 87 00:04:54,867 --> 00:04:58,433 And the neighbors would come over, and we'd help with yard work, 88 00:04:58,500 --> 00:05:01,767 but the chickens allowed me to kind of, I don't know, be at peace 89 00:05:01,834 --> 00:05:03,567 for a minute or two or ten. 90 00:05:03,633 --> 00:05:06,233 I think my therapist said it best about a week ago, 91 00:05:06,300 --> 00:05:08,967 she said, "Brian, you haven't been written up at the VA 92 00:05:09,033 --> 00:05:12,600 for almost a year and a half for not dropping f-bombs." 93 00:05:12,667 --> 00:05:14,667 And she said she was really proud of me for that, 94 00:05:14,734 --> 00:05:18,600 that I had come to the point where I wasn't full of rage and anger. 95 00:05:18,667 --> 00:05:21,266 I'm going to bring your attention now to October 2023. 96 00:05:21,332 --> 00:05:23,700 Did something happen with respect to two of your hens. 97 00:05:23,767 --> 00:05:27,233 Two ladies came to my door and said there's two dogs, 98 00:05:27,300 --> 00:05:30,233 um, that just killed two of your chickens, 99 00:05:30,300 --> 00:05:31,934 that they were throwing them around 100 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:34,400 and they were rag dolls flying through the air, 101 00:05:34,467 --> 00:05:37,834 and there's feathers everywhere and... [sobbing softly] 102 00:05:37,900 --> 00:05:41,600 I went out, and there was one of them 103 00:05:41,667 --> 00:05:45,400 that was just laying there in pieces just slaughtered... 104 00:05:45,467 --> 00:05:48,433 And there was no evidence at that time in October 2023, 105 00:05:48,500 --> 00:05:50,433 according to your complaint, connecting these-- 106 00:05:50,500 --> 00:05:52,166 -No, not at all. -These two dogs-- Right. 107 00:05:52,233 --> 00:05:54,933 But as a result of that incident, you took some protective measures, 108 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,266 according to your complaint, including putting up a security camera. 109 00:05:58,332 --> 00:06:01,400 We had a security camera that I had on my back porch 110 00:06:01,467 --> 00:06:04,066 and pointed it towards there. 111 00:06:04,133 --> 00:06:07,767 Now, something happened on April 13th, 2024, is that correct? 112 00:06:07,834 --> 00:06:11,266 Yes, sir. I was down at my mom's house in the LA area. 113 00:06:11,333 --> 00:06:14,667 She's 85 and wanted to move up near where we're living. 114 00:06:14,734 --> 00:06:17,100 And I was down there helping her sell her house, 115 00:06:17,166 --> 00:06:19,200 pack it up and move up there. 116 00:06:19,266 --> 00:06:23,700 And my wife called me just devastated, crying, 117 00:06:23,767 --> 00:06:27,800 and she said that, um, two dogs had got in there 118 00:06:27,867 --> 00:06:31,567 and just tore-- I mean, I don't know how to say it, 119 00:06:31,633 --> 00:06:32,800 just tore up these... 120 00:06:32,867 --> 00:06:35,667 That's what your wife said. Ma'am, can you please step up? 121 00:06:37,166 --> 00:06:38,834 -Ms. McKinsey? -Yes. 122 00:06:38,900 --> 00:06:40,332 Okay, before I ask you any questions, 123 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:42,533 I want to direct some questions to you, Mr. Dwelle. 124 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:44,734 -Yes. -Now, you have two dogs, correct? 125 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,066 -Correct. -Can we put that photograph up, please? 126 00:06:47,133 --> 00:06:49,834 -And those two dogs are Axl and Marvel? -Yes. 127 00:06:49,900 --> 00:06:53,500 Marvel is the Husky mix, the black one with the brown eyes. 128 00:06:53,567 --> 00:06:55,367 -[Levy] Husky mix? -Yes, Shepherd-Husky. 129 00:06:55,433 --> 00:06:58,332 -And Axl is the Shepherd mix, correct? -[Robert] Yes. 130 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,900 German Shepherd, Belgian Malinois and eight percent gray wolf. 131 00:07:01,967 --> 00:07:03,533 Eight percent gray wolf? 132 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:04,600 Yes. 133 00:07:05,300 --> 00:07:07,867 [narrator] Coming up, on Tribunal Justice... 134 00:07:07,934 --> 00:07:09,166 -Did you see the letter? -[Ken] Yes. 135 00:07:09,233 --> 00:07:14,500 The letter that I was given was not that letter presented for evidence here. 136 00:07:14,567 --> 00:07:17,967 Is there some reason that you doubt the legitimacy of this letter? 137 00:07:18,033 --> 00:07:19,332 Absolutely. 138 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:21,266 [dramatic music playing] 139 00:07:22,300 --> 00:07:23,900 [theme music playing] 140 00:07:24,433 --> 00:07:26,633 [narrator] Brian McKinsey is suing homeowner Ken Hunt 141 00:07:26,700 --> 00:07:30,133 and his tenant, Robert Dwelle, after Ken's dogs attacked and killed 142 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:31,934 Brian's emotional support chickens. 143 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:36,367 Brian wants the cost of the chickens and emotional distress totaling $10,000. 144 00:07:36,433 --> 00:07:39,933 Ken and Robert say Brian rejected their offer to pay for the damages, 145 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:41,266 so they owe nothing. 146 00:07:41,332 --> 00:07:44,033 Mr. Hunt, you rented to Mr. Dwelle, correct? 147 00:07:44,100 --> 00:07:45,100 Yes, that's correct. 148 00:07:45,166 --> 00:07:49,332 And how long has he been living in your home as of April 13th, 2024? 149 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,567 He'd been living there about, uh, 10 months. 150 00:07:52,633 --> 00:07:55,400 Ten months. And you knew when he moved in, he had these two dogs? 151 00:07:55,467 --> 00:07:57,300 -Correct. -Now, Mr. Dwelle, 152 00:07:57,367 --> 00:08:00,934 April 13th, 2024, the date of this incident, 153 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:02,734 was not the first time, according to your answer, 154 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:05,033 -that your dogs got off your property? -Correct. 155 00:08:05,100 --> 00:08:07,100 That had happened how many times before? 156 00:08:07,166 --> 00:08:08,567 About five times prior. 157 00:08:08,633 --> 00:08:11,533 And what, if any, efforts did you make to make sure 158 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:14,066 that your dogs did not get off your property? 159 00:08:14,133 --> 00:08:16,967 Okay, so the first effort we made 160 00:08:17,033 --> 00:08:20,734 was we put debris over the stump that they were using 161 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:22,700 to lunge over the fence. 162 00:08:22,767 --> 00:08:25,800 And then after that, that didn't work, so we cut the stump 163 00:08:25,867 --> 00:08:27,834 all the way to the dirt. That did not work. 164 00:08:27,900 --> 00:08:29,734 -[Levy] What else? -Then we got an electric fence... 165 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:31,500 -All the way around the house? -[Robert] Yeah. 166 00:08:31,567 --> 00:08:33,967 -And they have to wear a collar? -And they have to wear a collar. 167 00:08:34,033 --> 00:08:36,200 -Did they always wear their collars? -Always wore the collars. 168 00:08:36,265 --> 00:08:38,200 There was never a time they did not wear their collars? 169 00:08:38,265 --> 00:08:40,400 When we had it, they wore it all the time. 170 00:08:40,467 --> 00:08:42,533 All the time. Because you'd agree that if there was a time 171 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:46,633 where they were not wearing their collars, that'd just be negligence on your part. 172 00:08:46,700 --> 00:08:49,900 -Sure, yes. -So I'm asking you now, Ms. McKinsey, 173 00:08:49,967 --> 00:08:54,500 I would like you to tell us what you witnessed on April 13th, 2024. 174 00:08:54,567 --> 00:08:57,333 A bunch of dead chickens, feathers everywhere 175 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:00,066 and just pieces... 176 00:09:00,133 --> 00:09:01,800 -[Levy] And your husband was not home? -No. 177 00:09:01,867 --> 00:09:03,633 There came a time that you went back in the house, 178 00:09:03,700 --> 00:09:06,133 -and you looked at the video, correct? -Yes. 179 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:07,300 Let's take a look, please. 180 00:09:07,367 --> 00:09:09,867 Now, listen, this is tough, 181 00:09:09,934 --> 00:09:12,000 especially for you, sir. If you don't wanna watch, 182 00:09:12,066 --> 00:09:14,467 -you most certainly do not have to. -Thank you, Your Honor. 183 00:09:14,533 --> 00:09:16,567 All right? If you would like to step out for a moment, 184 00:09:16,633 --> 00:09:18,066 you're more than welcome to step out. 185 00:09:18,133 --> 00:09:20,533 We don't need you here for this part. Thank you, sir. 186 00:09:22,133 --> 00:09:24,300 So, let's put that up. P1. 187 00:09:25,066 --> 00:09:27,367 -This is your backyard, is it not? -[Jolene] Yes. 188 00:09:27,433 --> 00:09:29,667 -[Levy] Which dog is that? -[Robert] That would be Marvel. 189 00:09:29,734 --> 00:09:31,934 -[Levy] Marvel. -[Robert] And that's Axl. 190 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:33,066 [Levy] That's Axl. 191 00:09:33,133 --> 00:09:35,333 With the chicken in its mouth going around the other side. 192 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,834 Now, I will note, Sir, that neither of those dogs have collars on them. 193 00:09:38,900 --> 00:09:40,734 -[Robert] That is correct. -[Levy] And your two dogs 194 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:43,333 -are just mauling on these chickens. -[Robert] Yes. 195 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:47,867 We had feathers scattered from there all the way across our driveway, 196 00:09:47,934 --> 00:09:51,600 up to the end of the driveway, which is about the length of our motor home, 197 00:09:51,667 --> 00:09:54,333 -our mobile home. -[Levy] Thank you. We can take that down. 198 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:58,266 And we can have your husband come back in, please? 199 00:09:58,333 --> 00:09:59,567 Thank you. 200 00:09:59,633 --> 00:10:02,166 And now I'm going to pass it to my colleague, Judge Acker. 201 00:10:02,233 --> 00:10:03,233 Thank you very much. 202 00:10:03,300 --> 00:10:06,400 Thank you, Judge. What happened to your dogs? 203 00:10:06,467 --> 00:10:10,100 We surrendered them, and they were euthanized. 204 00:10:10,166 --> 00:10:13,567 So just so we're clear, you've actually, in your answer, 205 00:10:13,633 --> 00:10:16,200 -acknowledged some degree of negligence. -Absolutely. 206 00:10:16,266 --> 00:10:20,000 So Mr. McKinsey is alleging $600, 207 00:10:20,066 --> 00:10:24,033 in, we'll call it property damage, for the chickens themselves. 208 00:10:24,100 --> 00:10:29,200 But he also has a claim for $9,400 in emotional distress damages. 209 00:10:29,266 --> 00:10:31,367 If we find those damages are valid, 210 00:10:31,433 --> 00:10:33,100 why wouldn't you be liable for that? 211 00:10:33,165 --> 00:10:37,567 Well, nobody can really say how much somebody is struggling with something. 212 00:10:37,633 --> 00:10:39,266 Did you hear him? Did you hear his testimony 213 00:10:39,333 --> 00:10:40,734 -about how much he's struggling? -I did. 214 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,967 Could we please put up Exhibit 3? That's the Vet Affairs letter 215 00:10:45,033 --> 00:10:49,066 that the Plaintiff has submitted to show that keeping these chickens 216 00:10:49,133 --> 00:10:52,734 was actually a recommendation of his doctor. 217 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:55,667 And in fact, sir, it was May 1st, 2023, 218 00:10:55,734 --> 00:10:58,867 and the reason I underscore that date is that 219 00:10:58,934 --> 00:11:02,333 you established what these chickens were and what they meant to you 220 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:03,700 long before the incident. 221 00:11:03,767 --> 00:11:07,734 But, Sir, one of the elements of the Defendant's defense 222 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:09,567 that they haven't really gone into here 223 00:11:09,633 --> 00:11:14,200 is that your community doesn't allow you to keep poultry. 224 00:11:14,266 --> 00:11:15,567 [Brian] I was going to mention that. 225 00:11:15,633 --> 00:11:18,934 The POA is like a property owners' association, 226 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,233 and I supplied the letter to them, 227 00:11:21,300 --> 00:11:23,900 and then that gives me the ability to have 228 00:11:23,967 --> 00:11:26,100 -chickens legally. -[Acker] To keep the chickens. 229 00:11:26,166 --> 00:11:28,033 My chickens were contained where they belonged... 230 00:11:28,100 --> 00:11:30,166 Your chickens were-- And I'm sorry to interrupt, 231 00:11:30,233 --> 00:11:32,767 but I just want to make sure that we're underscoring that point. 232 00:11:32,834 --> 00:11:35,200 You are gonna attract coyotes, 233 00:11:35,266 --> 00:11:39,000 and you're going to attract other animals that might pose a danger 234 00:11:39,066 --> 00:11:42,934 to someone's puppy or to another domesticated animal. 235 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,667 So I think there are good reasons for the prohibitions, 236 00:11:45,734 --> 00:11:48,133 but when a doctor says 237 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:52,433 these chickens are pets that are important to your recovery, 238 00:11:52,500 --> 00:11:57,266 then I think it really takes it out of the realm of that homeowners' prohibition. 239 00:11:57,333 --> 00:11:58,800 Were you about to say something? 240 00:11:58,867 --> 00:12:01,567 -I would like to address that. -Please. Please do. 241 00:12:01,633 --> 00:12:03,266 The doctor did not say that. 242 00:12:03,333 --> 00:12:04,700 -Did you see the letter? -[Ken] Yes. 243 00:12:04,767 --> 00:12:07,867 Not only did I see a letter, 244 00:12:07,934 --> 00:12:13,400 the letter that I was given was not that letter presented for evidence here. 245 00:12:13,467 --> 00:12:16,233 [Acker] Is there some reason that you doubt the legitimacy 246 00:12:16,300 --> 00:12:18,033 or the authenticity of this letter? 247 00:12:18,100 --> 00:12:19,133 [Ken] Absolutely. 248 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:23,800 I just dug this out and got it after researching what you had to do. 249 00:12:23,867 --> 00:12:25,000 [Acker] Okay. 250 00:12:25,066 --> 00:12:30,800 And it said that a letter by a licensed physician... 251 00:12:30,867 --> 00:12:33,300 Byrd, could you get that, please? 252 00:12:33,367 --> 00:12:39,266 And all this does is to show that they did not follow the protocol 253 00:12:39,333 --> 00:12:44,066 to get a licensed physician to fill out a form, 254 00:12:44,133 --> 00:12:48,667 to put it on a letterhead of the VA, and-- 255 00:12:48,734 --> 00:12:51,165 -May I approach the screen over there? -Sure. 256 00:12:51,233 --> 00:12:52,967 And then I'm going to after you make this point, 257 00:12:53,033 --> 00:12:55,165 -I'll pass the case to Judge Di Mango. -[Ken] Okay. 258 00:12:55,233 --> 00:12:58,900 You see how this indicates Department of Veterans Affairs 259 00:12:58,967 --> 00:13:01,033 -right up there in the center... -[Acker] Yes, sir. 260 00:13:01,100 --> 00:13:03,200 ...all-centered script? -Yes, sir. 261 00:13:03,266 --> 00:13:06,133 -The blurred out items here... -[Acker] Mm-hmm. 262 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:10,100 are not that way on the copy of the letter that I was given. 263 00:13:10,166 --> 00:13:12,800 This second line started way the heck over here. 264 00:13:12,867 --> 00:13:13,867 It's right here. 265 00:13:13,934 --> 00:13:16,700 And then they went the third line here. 266 00:13:16,767 --> 00:13:18,734 -[Acker] Byrd, can you get that? -Which made me believe 267 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,867 that the Plaintiff created this letter. 268 00:13:22,934 --> 00:13:25,166 -[Brian] I can address that, if you like. -[Acker] Please do. 269 00:13:25,233 --> 00:13:30,967 When I originally filed the claim, they suggested I try to mediate with Mr. Hunt. 270 00:13:31,033 --> 00:13:32,967 So I just gave him letters, 271 00:13:33,033 --> 00:13:36,700 and what it had done is that when I printed it on my format, 272 00:13:36,767 --> 00:13:40,066 versus the VA, when I downloaded it off of My HealtheVet, 273 00:13:40,133 --> 00:13:43,533 it had shifted the title all the way, 274 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,333 like the column left justification. 275 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:49,233 And then when I was preparing for court here, 276 00:13:49,300 --> 00:13:51,700 I made the correct one. 277 00:13:51,767 --> 00:13:52,967 Thank you, sir. Thank you. Judge? 278 00:13:53,033 --> 00:13:54,767 I need to bring something up. 279 00:13:54,834 --> 00:13:56,800 -What do want to bring up? -[Ken] He just mentioned 280 00:13:56,867 --> 00:13:58,800 that he typed that up... 281 00:13:58,867 --> 00:14:00,433 I didn't say "typed it up." 282 00:14:00,500 --> 00:14:02,667 -[DiMango] Both of you stop. Okay, look. -I said printed. 283 00:14:02,734 --> 00:14:06,200 That letter was not written in accordance with the veteran rules. 284 00:14:06,266 --> 00:14:09,066 That letter was typed up, it looks like, by somebody at home. 285 00:14:09,133 --> 00:14:11,834 Does that mean you're not going to prevail in this matter? 286 00:14:11,900 --> 00:14:15,100 Absolutely not. It just means you didn't comport with those rules. 287 00:14:15,166 --> 00:14:17,867 Now, for somebody who's so interested in following rules, 288 00:14:17,934 --> 00:14:22,233 let me ask you, sir, both of you were your dogs, were they licensed? 289 00:14:22,300 --> 00:14:24,600 -No. -No. Why weren't your dogs licensed? 290 00:14:24,667 --> 00:14:25,934 [dramatic music playing] 291 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,633 [narrator] Coming up, on Tribunal Justice... 292 00:14:28,700 --> 00:14:31,667 The letter that he provided, while the heading might be off, 293 00:14:31,734 --> 00:14:34,633 your better argument was it wasn't signed. 294 00:14:34,700 --> 00:14:36,700 Your copy is signed. 295 00:14:36,767 --> 00:14:38,934 So, you just made his case. 296 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:43,400 [theme music playing] 297 00:14:43,967 --> 00:14:46,400 [narrator] Brian McKinsey is suing homeowner Ken Hunt 298 00:14:46,467 --> 00:14:50,800 and his tenant, Robert Dwelle, for $10,000 after Robert's dogs 299 00:14:50,867 --> 00:14:54,066 mauled and killed Brian's emotional support chickens. 300 00:14:54,133 --> 00:14:57,367 But Ken and Robert say chickens are not allowed in their community, 301 00:14:57,433 --> 00:14:59,033 plus they offered to pay for them. 302 00:14:59,100 --> 00:15:01,433 Brian refused, so they owe nothing. 303 00:15:01,500 --> 00:15:03,834 Were your dogs, were they licensed? 304 00:15:03,900 --> 00:15:06,533 -No. -No. Why weren't your dogs licensed? 305 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,567 I'm just pointing out, you know, if you want to really go by strict rules and all, 306 00:15:10,633 --> 00:15:13,767 we can do that across the board, but sometimes the law bends a little bit, 307 00:15:13,834 --> 00:15:16,667 and listens in its attempt to be fair and just. 308 00:15:16,734 --> 00:15:20,233 And by the way, gentlemen, even though your HOA rules prohibit 309 00:15:20,300 --> 00:15:23,633 poultry and chickens and so on, I think that's all superseded 310 00:15:23,700 --> 00:15:26,333 by California's Fair Employment and Housing Act, 311 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:30,734 which requires that if people have legitimate support animals, 312 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:32,333 that those animals be permitted. 313 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:36,033 So that's when these documents will have some more significance 314 00:15:36,100 --> 00:15:37,734 in the course of this case. 315 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:42,967 But on the other hand, sir, pets are what they call chattel, they're property. 316 00:15:43,033 --> 00:15:47,767 They don't enjoy the same rights that humans have, 317 00:15:47,834 --> 00:15:51,600 -and that holds even for support animals. -Mm. 318 00:15:51,667 --> 00:15:54,367 So there are certain rules and certain laws 319 00:15:54,433 --> 00:15:59,133 that are called negative infliction of emotional distress. 320 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:04,266 And the reason why that's important is because it's very difficult 321 00:16:04,333 --> 00:16:08,567 to even establish the intentional infliction of emotional distress. 322 00:16:08,633 --> 00:16:13,233 They're called bystander laws, which means if you're walking down the street, 323 00:16:13,300 --> 00:16:15,834 and you have your child with you, and a car comes by 324 00:16:15,900 --> 00:16:19,967 and intentionally crashes into your child. 325 00:16:20,033 --> 00:16:22,133 You're not injured, you're not hurt, 326 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,200 but you are emotionally traumatized by that, 327 00:16:25,266 --> 00:16:28,367 the law has taken a while to carve out an exception to say 328 00:16:28,433 --> 00:16:32,867 if you are a close relative, if you were present at the time of the injury, 329 00:16:32,934 --> 00:16:34,800 and several other factors, 330 00:16:34,867 --> 00:16:37,600 then you could recover under what they call 331 00:16:37,667 --> 00:16:41,800 the bystander law for an intentional infliction of emotional distress. 332 00:16:41,867 --> 00:16:43,300 Very limited. 333 00:16:43,367 --> 00:16:47,165 What you're missing in your case is one, you were not present, 334 00:16:47,233 --> 00:16:51,567 two, your girls are not humans under the law, 335 00:16:51,633 --> 00:16:55,600 and the actions by the Defendants 336 00:16:55,667 --> 00:16:58,633 if we say would be negligent. 337 00:16:58,700 --> 00:17:02,000 Which would mean that there would be no recovery for you 338 00:17:02,066 --> 00:17:06,500 other than the actual out-of-pocket cost of the girls. 339 00:17:06,567 --> 00:17:09,767 Even if you were to show that their acts were intentional, 340 00:17:09,834 --> 00:17:12,333 that he should have had a collar on those dogs 341 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:13,767 when he lied in this courtroom-- 342 00:17:13,834 --> 00:17:16,467 By the way, I know you don't like lying, and he did lie to us 343 00:17:16,532 --> 00:17:18,834 about the fact that the dogs were collared. 344 00:17:18,900 --> 00:17:20,532 'Cause in the video, they were not. 345 00:17:20,599 --> 00:17:24,900 And he's in a bad place, because honestly, we can all make an assessment 346 00:17:24,967 --> 00:17:27,599 that the behavior that we've seen is in dire need 347 00:17:27,666 --> 00:17:29,800 of some sort of outside support, 348 00:17:29,867 --> 00:17:33,567 so that he can maintain his ability to function. 349 00:17:33,633 --> 00:17:37,200 At this point, if my colleagues have other questions, they're gonna continue. 350 00:17:37,266 --> 00:17:40,700 Okay. So, Ma'am, do you have anything to add? Can you help out Mr. Hunt? 351 00:17:40,767 --> 00:17:43,633 Because he seems to think that your husband's malingering. 352 00:17:43,700 --> 00:17:47,033 Well, before he had a very bad anger. 353 00:17:47,100 --> 00:17:50,633 He's picked up lawn mowers and thrown them at the fences and-- 354 00:17:50,700 --> 00:17:51,734 Because it wouldn't start. 355 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:56,000 [Levy] And he got better after he was following the recommendations 356 00:17:56,066 --> 00:18:00,734 of the most recent psychiatrist at the VA in Chico, California, right? 357 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:02,700 -Yes. -Put up Number 04. 358 00:18:02,767 --> 00:18:05,800 I figured, you know what? I said, "Let me just grab this 359 00:18:05,867 --> 00:18:09,367 just in case one of the litigants makes a moronic argument." 360 00:18:09,433 --> 00:18:12,467 There might be a question with the documentation that she provided 361 00:18:12,533 --> 00:18:15,533 in which she identified his disability, 362 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,700 and the fact that she was specifically recommending chickens. 363 00:18:18,767 --> 00:18:21,734 She, in fact, works at the Department of Veteran Affairs. 364 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:24,567 And she worked there May 1st, 2023, 365 00:18:24,633 --> 00:18:27,033 consistent with the letter, sir, that you provided. 366 00:18:27,100 --> 00:18:30,266 And I thank you for providing this letter, 'cause quite frankly, 367 00:18:30,333 --> 00:18:33,734 the letter that he provided, while the heading might be off, 368 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,367 your better argument was it wasn't signed. 369 00:18:36,934 --> 00:18:39,734 Your copy is signed. Give it back to him. 370 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:40,967 Thank you, Byrd. 371 00:18:41,967 --> 00:18:43,767 So you just made his case. 372 00:18:44,233 --> 00:18:46,867 Now, you had that letter in your possession for how long? 373 00:18:46,934 --> 00:18:48,000 Three or four weeks. 374 00:18:48,066 --> 00:18:50,166 Good. Did you ever contact the number 375 00:18:50,233 --> 00:18:52,834 to see if, in fact, she wrote that letter? Yes or no? 376 00:18:52,900 --> 00:18:56,033 -No. -So that argument. Gone. 377 00:18:56,100 --> 00:18:58,033 The man served our country. 378 00:18:58,100 --> 00:19:01,967 Suffered catastrophic injuries. Did you ever serve in the military? 379 00:19:02,033 --> 00:19:03,300 -Yes, I did. -[Levy] You did. 380 00:19:03,367 --> 00:19:05,867 So you have brothers and sisters that you served with 381 00:19:05,934 --> 00:19:08,400 that suffered the same exact things that he does, 382 00:19:08,467 --> 00:19:10,967 and you challenge whether or not he's telling the truth? 383 00:19:11,033 --> 00:19:13,233 Without ever calling his doctor beforehand? 384 00:19:13,300 --> 00:19:16,767 -Shame on you. Shame on you. -I challenge that. 385 00:19:16,834 --> 00:19:18,667 And any effort to undermine 386 00:19:18,734 --> 00:19:22,300 your emotional distress, what you suffered, I think, is deplorable. 387 00:19:22,367 --> 00:19:23,533 I'm done. Judge Acker? 388 00:19:24,166 --> 00:19:29,500 Mr. Hunt, I actually want to sort of give you a minute to respond. 389 00:19:29,567 --> 00:19:32,300 -I know you've had some things to say. -Yes. 390 00:19:32,367 --> 00:19:36,400 The Paradise Pines Property Owners Association 391 00:19:37,266 --> 00:19:41,734 rules and regulations have this regulation 392 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:45,667 about not having fowls on your property. 393 00:19:45,734 --> 00:19:49,433 Why would they do that? Somebody didn't like chickens? 394 00:19:49,500 --> 00:19:54,000 No. They are bear bait. They are mountain lion bait. 395 00:19:54,066 --> 00:19:57,700 Those are the animals that we live with in our mountain community. 396 00:19:57,767 --> 00:20:02,600 I still believe he caused an endangerment 397 00:20:02,667 --> 00:20:04,000 to his neighbors 398 00:20:04,066 --> 00:20:08,800 and anyone who lives in that area by having the predator bait in his yard. 399 00:20:08,867 --> 00:20:10,834 All right, I don't have anything else. Thank you both. 400 00:20:10,900 --> 00:20:12,867 [DiMango] We're gonna retire to deliberate. 401 00:20:12,934 --> 00:20:16,834 Court now stands in recess. This case will be recalled. 402 00:20:16,900 --> 00:20:18,367 Parties are excused. 403 00:20:18,433 --> 00:20:20,467 [dramatic music playing] 404 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:24,700 [dramatic music playing] 405 00:20:25,834 --> 00:20:28,200 Okay, so the first cause of action 406 00:20:28,266 --> 00:20:32,000 the Plaintiff needs to prove for negligent infliction of emotional distress 407 00:20:32,533 --> 00:20:35,467 that the state of California, as most states do, 408 00:20:35,533 --> 00:20:38,667 are moving away from a plain chattel view. 409 00:20:38,734 --> 00:20:44,033 Recognize the right of owners of emotional support pets 410 00:20:44,100 --> 00:20:47,200 to sue for negligent infliction of emotional distress. 411 00:20:47,266 --> 00:20:49,700 So I believe under that cause of action, 412 00:20:49,767 --> 00:20:52,934 the Defendant's effort, that is the landlord, Mr. Hunt's effort 413 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:57,867 to argue that the rules of his property owners' association 414 00:20:57,934 --> 00:21:03,900 trump federal and state law that specifically state 415 00:21:03,967 --> 00:21:07,533 that individuals with disabilities, which the Plaintiff has, 416 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:12,734 are allowed to request a reasonable accommodation for support animals, 417 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:17,266 even in housing situations where pets are typically restricted. 418 00:21:17,333 --> 00:21:19,500 So, Defendant loses, 419 00:21:19,567 --> 00:21:23,767 because his little property owners of association 420 00:21:23,834 --> 00:21:27,200 does not trump federal and state law. 421 00:21:27,266 --> 00:21:28,667 And shame on him. 422 00:21:28,734 --> 00:21:31,967 Shame on him for trying to throw shade on the letter 423 00:21:32,033 --> 00:21:35,400 and on the testimony of the Plaintiff under these circumstances. 424 00:21:35,467 --> 00:21:38,967 He's just as responsible as his co-defendant, Mr. Dwelle, 425 00:21:39,033 --> 00:21:40,000 who owns the dogs. 426 00:21:40,066 --> 00:21:43,700 So, in my opinion, I believe the Plaintiff has succeeded on both grounds. 427 00:21:43,767 --> 00:21:45,800 Negligent infliction of emotional distress, 428 00:21:45,867 --> 00:21:47,767 and straight negligence with damages. 429 00:21:47,834 --> 00:21:48,834 That's my point. 430 00:21:48,900 --> 00:21:52,000 I feel a little bit compelled to speak in Mr. Hunt's defense, 431 00:21:52,066 --> 00:21:56,200 because I live in the hills and when my dogs were puppies, 432 00:21:56,266 --> 00:21:59,467 my dogs were bait, as puppies they are bait. 433 00:21:59,533 --> 00:22:02,333 I mean, I've seen coyotes walking down my street. 434 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,100 I think the rule makes perfect sense. 435 00:22:04,166 --> 00:22:08,000 You don't have livestock in a community that's urban. 436 00:22:08,066 --> 00:22:10,734 But to your first point, 437 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:14,100 if we went down an analytical pattern 438 00:22:14,166 --> 00:22:19,033 that said HOA rules could supersede federal and state law, 439 00:22:19,100 --> 00:22:21,567 this country would look a lot different. 440 00:22:21,633 --> 00:22:25,400 My parents would not have been able to buy the house that they bought, perhaps. 441 00:22:25,467 --> 00:22:29,300 Homeowners associations, no matter how well-founded the rules, 442 00:22:29,367 --> 00:22:34,133 do not get to say our rules are bigger than the federal government 443 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:35,233 or the state government. 444 00:22:35,300 --> 00:22:37,834 So, I agree with your analysis 445 00:22:37,900 --> 00:22:40,633 of the emotional distress claim in this context, 446 00:22:40,700 --> 00:22:45,967 because these animals provided a certain particular value to this Plaintiff. 447 00:22:46,033 --> 00:22:49,667 Even if I had concerns about that letter, I found him credible, 448 00:22:49,734 --> 00:22:52,734 I found his testimony credible, and I found his wife credible. 449 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,166 I have no problem giving him everything he's asking for. 450 00:22:55,233 --> 00:22:57,767 Well, I'm going to start with the negligence claim here. 451 00:22:57,834 --> 00:23:02,000 I think that we all recognize, and anybody watching the Plaintiff would recognize 452 00:23:02,066 --> 00:23:07,033 that he is clearly an individual in need of something for emotional support. 453 00:23:07,100 --> 00:23:10,367 And so, therefore, his need for the emotional support 454 00:23:10,433 --> 00:23:14,433 falls within the federal and state statutes, supersedes the HOA. 455 00:23:14,500 --> 00:23:17,467 I believe that he should be reimbursed at the current market value. 456 00:23:17,533 --> 00:23:21,867 I believe that's the law for each of the hens, and award him under that. 457 00:23:21,934 --> 00:23:24,633 I do not, however, think that California, 458 00:23:24,700 --> 00:23:27,033 nor will I be willing to extend 459 00:23:27,100 --> 00:23:30,100 the negligent infliction of emotional distress claim 460 00:23:30,166 --> 00:23:32,433 on his emotional distress, despite the fact 461 00:23:32,500 --> 00:23:35,400 that he clearly is distressed over the loss of his chickens. 462 00:23:35,467 --> 00:23:39,934 Because, like I said, the individual who was claiming the emotional distress 463 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:44,467 must be present at the scene where the injury occurs. 464 00:23:44,533 --> 00:23:48,433 I read it as the only people that are required to recover under that 465 00:23:48,500 --> 00:23:51,066 are people who are very close loved ones, 466 00:23:51,133 --> 00:23:53,667 and even that, generally, it's just family members. 467 00:23:53,734 --> 00:23:57,533 So here we're missing, I think, some significant criteria, 468 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,233 which would bring even a human being 469 00:24:00,300 --> 00:24:03,734 within the rules for negligent infliction of an emotional distress. 470 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,700 I think monetarily, he should be reimbursed for each of the chickens, 471 00:24:07,767 --> 00:24:10,066 based on the clear negligence law. 472 00:24:10,133 --> 00:24:13,800 You don't think the special sensitivities of the Plaintiff-- 473 00:24:13,867 --> 00:24:17,767 If you did that, more people would recover over deaths of animals 474 00:24:17,834 --> 00:24:19,400 -than they would over human beings... -I-- 475 00:24:19,467 --> 00:24:22,033 ...'cause most states and including California, 476 00:24:22,100 --> 00:24:24,600 you cannot recover without the things that I said. 477 00:24:24,667 --> 00:24:27,667 And the primary thing is that the person be present on the scene. 478 00:24:27,734 --> 00:24:29,467 -[Levy] So you'll be the dissent? -Correct. 479 00:24:29,533 --> 00:24:32,667 But it's unanimous on the straight negligence cause of action 480 00:24:32,734 --> 00:24:34,166 with economic damages. 481 00:24:34,233 --> 00:24:36,734 And with respect to the verdict 482 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:38,667 on the negligent infliction of emotional distress, 483 00:24:38,734 --> 00:24:40,066 we are in the majority, 484 00:24:40,133 --> 00:24:42,500 and the Plaintiff succeeds on the $10,000... 485 00:24:42,567 --> 00:24:44,800 Okay, because you guys are the majority. 486 00:24:44,867 --> 00:24:46,367 Otherwise, for me, it's just negligence. 487 00:24:46,433 --> 00:24:48,166 -Okay. Thank you. -Thank you. 488 00:24:48,567 --> 00:24:51,533 [dramatic music playing] 489 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,100 Court is back in session. I remind parties you're still under oath. 490 00:24:55,166 --> 00:24:56,467 -Thank you, Byrd. -Mm-hmm. 491 00:24:56,533 --> 00:24:58,834 All right. Mr. McKinsey, with respect 492 00:24:58,900 --> 00:25:02,266 to the negligent infliction of emotional distress, 493 00:25:02,333 --> 00:25:04,233 Judge DiMango, she was right. 494 00:25:04,300 --> 00:25:06,600 You know, the law is changing 495 00:25:06,667 --> 00:25:11,400 with respect to allowing someone in your position, sir, to sue 496 00:25:11,467 --> 00:25:14,734 and seek emotional distress damages. 497 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,333 The law is moving in favor of, and there are cases that do, in fact, 498 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,567 support someone in your position from making that claim, 499 00:25:21,633 --> 00:25:25,567 so long as you can prove those additional elements that we discussed. 500 00:25:25,633 --> 00:25:29,934 Judge Acker, and I believe you have met your burden in that manner. 501 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,633 And therefore, the judgment is in your favor on that cause of action, 502 00:25:33,700 --> 00:25:36,100 with Judge DiMango dissenting. 503 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,300 The basis of Judge DiMango's dissent 504 00:25:39,367 --> 00:25:42,433 could be found in the zone of danger argument, 505 00:25:42,500 --> 00:25:47,467 that is, that in cases where people do receive emotional distress for animals, 506 00:25:47,533 --> 00:25:51,100 whether it be regular non-emotional support animals, 507 00:25:51,166 --> 00:25:52,900 of for humans, for that matter, 508 00:25:52,967 --> 00:25:56,033 that they must be in the zone of danger. They must have actually witnessed. 509 00:25:56,100 --> 00:25:58,934 You were out of town. What you witnessed was provided to you 510 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,166 by way of a video from your wife. 511 00:26:01,233 --> 00:26:04,367 That was the only way that you saw what had happened. 512 00:26:04,433 --> 00:26:05,900 -Correct. -And that was the basis 513 00:26:05,967 --> 00:26:07,433 of Judge DiMango's dissent. 514 00:26:07,500 --> 00:26:09,800 But that doesn't make much of a difference at the end of the day, 515 00:26:09,867 --> 00:26:13,133 because on both causes of action, you've succeeded 516 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:17,000 in proving to us your damages of $10,000. 517 00:26:17,066 --> 00:26:20,900 And Mr. Hunt, if every homeowners or property owners' association 518 00:26:20,967 --> 00:26:23,200 could make up their own rules and supersede that, 519 00:26:23,266 --> 00:26:27,000 we'd be in a much different place today than we are. 520 00:26:27,066 --> 00:26:31,633 So with that in mind, a judgment in favor of the Plaintiff for $10,000. 521 00:26:31,700 --> 00:26:32,900 Thank you all for coming. 522 00:26:33,734 --> 00:26:36,266 Court is now concluded, parties are excused. 523 00:26:36,333 --> 00:26:37,500 You may step out. 524 00:26:41,233 --> 00:26:44,834 Yeah, we need to have safety provisions 525 00:26:46,266 --> 00:26:48,867 for the people who choose to live in mountains. 526 00:26:48,934 --> 00:26:52,967 My heart tells me Mr. Hunt's a politician and always will be. 527 00:26:53,033 --> 00:26:55,133 And he goes to the immediate lie. 528 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:56,266 The bears know. 529 00:26:56,333 --> 00:27:01,500 He used to sit in the cage with them for hours and play with them, whatever. 530 00:27:01,567 --> 00:27:04,867 And now, all he does is find their feathers and body parts still. 531 00:27:04,934 --> 00:27:06,533 It is a tragic situation. 532 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:08,266 It's been crazy. 533 00:27:08,333 --> 00:27:11,066 [narrator] Someone's dog got you barking mad? 534 00:27:11,133 --> 00:27:15,533 Unleash the hounds of justice. Tribunal Justice. 535 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:17,633 Find us on social media. 536 00:27:17,700 --> 00:27:19,700 [theme music playing]