1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:02,967 You purchased a three-month-old puppy 2 00:00:03,033 --> 00:00:05,266 -and she died. -Yes. 3 00:00:05,333 --> 00:00:07,533 [narrator] Today on Tribunal Justice... 4 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:10,567 I called her and I said there's something terribly wrong with this puppy. 5 00:00:10,633 --> 00:00:12,033 I didn't sell her a sick dog. 6 00:00:12,100 --> 00:00:15,000 Why she was going downhill was 'cause she was not eating. 7 00:00:15,066 --> 00:00:16,500 They killed my dog. 8 00:00:16,567 --> 00:00:18,233 Would you please be quiet? 9 00:00:40,767 --> 00:00:44,300 [narrator] This case was filed in Spokane Valley, Washington. 10 00:00:44,367 --> 00:00:47,867 Your Honor, this is case number 1072 on the calendar 11 00:00:47,934 --> 00:00:49,667 in the matter of Lance v. Holmes. 12 00:00:49,734 --> 00:00:52,400 Parties have been sworn in. You may be seated. 13 00:00:52,467 --> 00:00:53,600 -[Levy] Thank you, Byrd. -Mm-hm. 14 00:00:53,667 --> 00:00:56,500 Ms. Lance, you purchased a three-month-old puppy 15 00:00:56,567 --> 00:00:57,667 from the defendant. 16 00:00:57,734 --> 00:01:01,333 The day after you purchased the puppy, you noticed that she was off. 17 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:02,667 She was a little lethargic. 18 00:01:02,734 --> 00:01:05,600 You contacted the defendant who told you 19 00:01:05,667 --> 00:01:08,467 -to give the puppy some sweet syrup... -Yes. 20 00:01:08,533 --> 00:01:10,967 ...and that she should bounce back, which you did. 21 00:01:11,033 --> 00:01:13,066 -Yes. -And that according to your complaint, 22 00:01:13,133 --> 00:01:15,667 the puppy seemed to have a little more energy, 23 00:01:15,734 --> 00:01:17,033 but then the next morning, 24 00:01:17,100 --> 00:01:18,967 the puppy wouldn't wake up. 25 00:01:19,033 --> 00:01:22,367 You ended up taking the puppy immediately to the emergency room 26 00:01:22,433 --> 00:01:25,400 where they did some tests and she died. 27 00:01:25,467 --> 00:01:27,000 -Is that correct? -Yes. 28 00:01:27,066 --> 00:01:30,767 You are suing the defendant for $5,000. 29 00:01:30,834 --> 00:01:35,233 You're suing her for vet bills for $1,860 30 00:01:35,300 --> 00:01:39,133 and for your pain and suffering for $3,140. 31 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:43,366 Your $1,200 that you had spent to purchase the puppy from the defendant, 32 00:01:43,433 --> 00:01:44,800 she had already reimbursed to you, 33 00:01:44,866 --> 00:01:46,265 -is that right? All right. -Yes. 34 00:01:46,333 --> 00:01:47,967 [Levy] Ms. Holmes, according to your answer, 35 00:01:48,033 --> 00:01:51,233 you've been breeding these type of dogs for 40 years. 36 00:01:51,300 --> 00:01:53,700 -Yes, sir. -That you placed an ad 37 00:01:53,767 --> 00:01:57,300 to sell this one dog that you eventually sold to the plaintiff, 38 00:01:57,366 --> 00:01:59,200 which was a Yorkie Maltese puppy. 39 00:01:59,265 --> 00:02:00,333 -Correct? -Yes. 40 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,066 And that the advertisement indicated that the puppy 41 00:02:03,133 --> 00:02:06,200 -was up to date on shots and records. -Yes. 42 00:02:06,266 --> 00:02:09,000 And you believe that the puppy died 43 00:02:09,066 --> 00:02:11,533 not because she was sick in your care, 44 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,433 but rather something that the plaintiff had done 45 00:02:14,500 --> 00:02:16,700 for the short period of time she had the puppy? 46 00:02:16,767 --> 00:02:19,333 -Yes. May I speak further on that? -Sure, please. 47 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:23,033 So when you have these little, tiny teacup puppies, 48 00:02:23,100 --> 00:02:25,734 it's important for them to have the availability 49 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,600 of having food always on the floor for them. 50 00:02:28,667 --> 00:02:33,033 And I was very specific about how to tend to her. 51 00:02:33,100 --> 00:02:34,800 So that's where I feel that, 52 00:02:34,867 --> 00:02:38,300 you know, she had said in one of the remarks that, 53 00:02:38,367 --> 00:02:42,700 "Oh, well, maybe three times isn't enough. Maybe four times." 54 00:02:42,767 --> 00:02:47,200 But I had specifically said all the time, twenty-four-seven 55 00:02:47,266 --> 00:02:48,633 for the food to be on the floor. 56 00:02:48,700 --> 00:02:51,333 Okay, and I believe that when you dropped the puppy off 57 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,400 -that she was small. -She was very small, yes. 58 00:02:54,466 --> 00:02:58,033 So Ms. Lance, what I want to do is, I have seen a picture of the puppy 59 00:02:58,100 --> 00:02:59,867 and I would like to put it up, please on the monitor 60 00:02:59,934 --> 00:03:02,100 so we can all see what she looks like. 61 00:03:02,166 --> 00:03:03,867 -That puppy on the left. -[Holmes] Yes. 62 00:03:03,934 --> 00:03:05,734 -Is that right? -My little baby girl, right there. 63 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:06,800 -Yes, Ms. Lance. -Yes. 64 00:03:06,867 --> 00:03:08,734 And what did you name the puppy when you got her? 65 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:10,266 -Snuggles. -Snuggles. 66 00:03:10,333 --> 00:03:14,467 And did you take that picture of Snuggles, or was that a picture Ms. Holmes took? 67 00:03:14,533 --> 00:03:16,133 Ms. Holmes took that one. 68 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:18,233 Okay, so Ms. Holmes, can you tell me 69 00:03:18,300 --> 00:03:22,000 approximately the date that that photograph was taken on the left, 70 00:03:22,066 --> 00:03:23,834 as well as the one on the right. 71 00:03:23,900 --> 00:03:29,400 So the one on the left was taken approximately about eight weeks old, 72 00:03:29,466 --> 00:03:32,466 and the picture right next to that on the right, 73 00:03:32,533 --> 00:03:35,433 that was closer to the day before 74 00:03:35,500 --> 00:03:38,533 that I had brought her to Ms. Candice Lance. 75 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:41,867 We also have a little video showing the day before 76 00:03:41,934 --> 00:03:44,934 when I was videotaping the puppy for Candice 77 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:48,567 'cause Candice wasn't able to come into the shop, she had hurt her ankle, 78 00:03:48,633 --> 00:03:53,400 and in the video it even states, "Oh, there's the baby girl in the corner." 79 00:03:53,466 --> 00:03:55,133 You know what? Let's put that video up, please, 80 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:56,734 so we all know what we're talking about. 81 00:04:00,100 --> 00:04:01,300 [Holmes on video] What you guys doing? 82 00:04:01,367 --> 00:04:03,834 [Holmes] So here she comes, right over on the left. 83 00:04:03,900 --> 00:04:05,433 Right there in the corner. 84 00:04:05,500 --> 00:04:07,367 [Holmes on video] Oh, oh, uh... 85 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:09,500 Oh, oh, oh... 86 00:04:09,567 --> 00:04:11,633 [Levy] So can we stop the video now? 87 00:04:12,367 --> 00:04:14,433 [Holmes] She's over there attacking another puppy. 88 00:04:14,500 --> 00:04:16,266 [Levy] I just circled, is that-- 89 00:04:16,332 --> 00:04:18,399 Yes, not the black but the one right on top... 90 00:04:18,466 --> 00:04:20,399 -Right, the one on top, the brown one. -She's just getting ready to be fussy 91 00:04:20,466 --> 00:04:23,500 -with the other puppy. -Okay, can we continue the video, please? 92 00:04:23,567 --> 00:04:24,667 [Holmes on video] Oh, there he is. 93 00:04:24,734 --> 00:04:26,100 -[Levy] There she is. -There she is. 94 00:04:26,166 --> 00:04:27,500 -Is that right? -That's it. 95 00:04:27,567 --> 00:04:29,900 -You say that's the day before? -That's the day before. 96 00:04:29,967 --> 00:04:30,834 Okay. 97 00:04:31,300 --> 00:04:32,834 [Holmes on video] That little one in the corner... 98 00:04:32,900 --> 00:04:36,166 So, Ms. Lance, you purchased the puppy on September 14th. 99 00:04:36,233 --> 00:04:37,400 Yes, that evening. 100 00:04:37,467 --> 00:04:40,734 Explain to me the process. How was it that you found the puppy, 101 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:42,933 the communications if any you had with the defendant 102 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:44,166 prior to picking the puppy up. 103 00:04:44,233 --> 00:04:47,166 What experience you had caring for dogs of this size. 104 00:04:47,233 --> 00:04:50,567 I found the puppy by a picture in the paper, 105 00:04:50,633 --> 00:04:53,233 and knew at first sight that I wanted her. 106 00:04:53,300 --> 00:04:55,633 -She was a cutie pie. -And as far as that video, 107 00:04:55,700 --> 00:04:56,767 I've never seen it. 108 00:04:56,834 --> 00:04:59,734 So how long prior to September 14th was it 109 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:03,600 that you initially contacted the defendant to purchase her, 110 00:05:03,667 --> 00:05:06,300 -or was it all the same day? -It was all the same day 111 00:05:06,367 --> 00:05:08,800 and I did tell her that I had broke my ankle. 112 00:05:08,867 --> 00:05:11,066 It was my right ankle, so I couldn't drive. 113 00:05:11,133 --> 00:05:12,967 So are you testifying to us today 114 00:05:13,033 --> 00:05:15,734 that the first time you saw that video that we just saw 115 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,033 was today, that you've never seen that before? 116 00:05:18,100 --> 00:05:19,367 -Yes, that's correct. -Okay. 117 00:05:19,433 --> 00:05:22,834 So you saw the advertisement in the paper. You fell in love immediately. 118 00:05:22,900 --> 00:05:25,667 You contacted the phone number, which was the defendant's phone number. 119 00:05:25,734 --> 00:05:27,332 What did you say to her? What did she say to you? 120 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:32,033 I told her I would take the puppy and, uh, if she could deliver it. 121 00:05:32,100 --> 00:05:34,000 She said yes, she'd be glad to deliver it. 122 00:05:34,066 --> 00:05:35,500 [Levy] And how much was the puppy? 123 00:05:35,567 --> 00:05:36,734 Twelve hundred dollars. 124 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:38,767 So you paid her the money when she dropped the puppy off. 125 00:05:38,834 --> 00:05:41,734 Did she give you any specific instructions with respect to the puppy? 126 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,767 Yes, I have the written instructions in my paperwork. 127 00:05:45,834 --> 00:05:48,233 Okay, so can you tell me what it was she said to you? 128 00:05:48,300 --> 00:05:50,700 Yeah, she said to feed the puppy 129 00:05:50,767 --> 00:05:52,967 -three times a day. -Did you follow the instructions? 130 00:05:53,033 --> 00:05:54,433 -You left food out for her. -Yes. 131 00:05:54,500 --> 00:05:57,200 So these type of dogs, correct me if I'm wrong, Ms. Holmes, 132 00:05:57,266 --> 00:05:59,200 but you can leave the food out for these dogs 133 00:05:59,266 --> 00:06:02,967 and they're not going to gobble it all up like my like my golden retrievers do. 134 00:06:03,033 --> 00:06:05,033 -You leave food out and it's gone. -[Holmes] Right. 135 00:06:05,100 --> 00:06:07,367 -You put more food in, it's gone. -[Holmes] No, they eat 136 00:06:07,433 --> 00:06:11,166 constantly throughout the day 'cause they're little and they can't keep 137 00:06:11,233 --> 00:06:12,867 that sugar level in their body. 138 00:06:12,934 --> 00:06:16,900 And she's feeding her three times a day. She's not leaving it on the floor. 139 00:06:16,967 --> 00:06:19,332 -You heard her say, three times a day. -So is that correct? 140 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,233 You were feeding her three times a day, but weren't leaving it out on the floor? 141 00:06:22,300 --> 00:06:24,567 -That's what she told me to do. -[Levy] Okay. 142 00:06:24,633 --> 00:06:27,000 When Snuggles came to your home on the 14th, 143 00:06:27,066 --> 00:06:31,633 -did she appear up and active and engaged? -[Lance] Yes. 144 00:06:31,700 --> 00:06:34,633 -Yes. -And when was it that you first realized 145 00:06:34,700 --> 00:06:36,900 that she was, as you termed, listless? 146 00:06:36,967 --> 00:06:40,500 The next morning, about 11:00, and I called her and I said, "Virginia, 147 00:06:40,567 --> 00:06:42,900 there's something terribly wrong with this puppy, 148 00:06:42,967 --> 00:06:46,800 she's listless," and she said, "She probably has low blood sugar. 149 00:06:46,867 --> 00:06:49,767 Give her some sweet syrup on your thumb 150 00:06:49,834 --> 00:06:52,133 and let her lick it off and call me back." 151 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:54,734 Okay, hold on one second, so, Ms. Holmes, is that correct? 152 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:56,900 -Yes, sir. -[Levy] And you do and what happens? 153 00:06:56,967 --> 00:06:59,133 She perked up 154 00:06:59,867 --> 00:07:05,333 and I was real pleased, but I was concerned about her blood sugar then. 155 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:07,567 Okay, and it seems to me, though, Ms. Holmes, 156 00:07:07,633 --> 00:07:09,967 that you pretty much nailed what the issue was 157 00:07:10,033 --> 00:07:11,266 -right away, from hearing... -Yes. 158 00:07:11,333 --> 00:07:14,767 ...just a very brief description from the plaintiff 159 00:07:14,834 --> 00:07:17,367 about what the problem was, that it was low blood sugar. 160 00:07:17,433 --> 00:07:19,300 -Yes. -Right. And you know 161 00:07:19,367 --> 00:07:22,000 prior to coming in here today, that it's the plaintiff's position 162 00:07:22,066 --> 00:07:25,066 that you sold her, whether you knew it or not, 163 00:07:25,133 --> 00:07:27,033 -you sold her a sick dog. -Yes. 164 00:07:27,100 --> 00:07:31,200 So my question to you is what, if any, medical treatments, 165 00:07:31,266 --> 00:07:33,467 if any, vet appointments, 166 00:07:33,533 --> 00:07:35,332 -did Snuggles... -Mm-hm. 167 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,200 ...go to, prior to being sold to the plaintiff. 168 00:07:38,266 --> 00:07:40,567 So she's born of a litter of one, correct? 169 00:07:40,633 --> 00:07:42,967 -She's born of a litter of one, yes. -Okay. 170 00:07:43,033 --> 00:07:46,166 And when she's born, is there a vet that you take her to? 171 00:07:46,233 --> 00:07:48,233 -Not normally, no. -[Levy] No. 172 00:07:48,300 --> 00:07:49,967 No, there's no need for that. 173 00:07:50,033 --> 00:07:52,567 -Okay so-- -Unless the puppy is sick. 174 00:07:52,633 --> 00:07:56,133 -Okay, so... -So, therefore, sir, I give my puppies 175 00:07:56,200 --> 00:08:00,533 all of their shots, except for the rabies 'cause I can't give them the rabies shot. 176 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:02,967 So how much did Snuggle weigh when she was born? 177 00:08:03,033 --> 00:08:05,633 She weighed about four... 178 00:08:06,867 --> 00:08:07,900 She was very tiny. 179 00:08:07,967 --> 00:08:10,467 -Okay, so, so, here's my question. -[Holmes] Yes. 180 00:08:10,533 --> 00:08:12,233 You're trying to give me an answer... -Yes. 181 00:08:12,300 --> 00:08:13,767 ...but you don't wanna give me an answer 182 00:08:13,834 --> 00:08:15,734 -because you really don't know, correct? -Right. 183 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,667 And so if were to ask you how much she weighed at birth, 184 00:08:18,734 --> 00:08:20,934 how much she weighed after a month, two months 185 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:25,332 and how much she weighed the day that she was delivered on September 14th, 186 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:27,734 -you would have no records to support... -No. 187 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:29,433 -...any number whatsoever. -No. 188 00:08:29,500 --> 00:08:32,633 You do know however that when the plaintiff took her to the vet, 189 00:08:32,700 --> 00:08:34,400 the vet weighed her and she was eight ounces. 190 00:08:34,467 --> 00:08:36,633 -Uh-huh. -Is that very small for the dog? 191 00:08:36,700 --> 00:08:38,567 That's a normal size, but you have to-- 192 00:08:38,633 --> 00:08:41,332 A normal size for a three-month old teacup Yorkie? 193 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:43,100 Yes, they're very tiny teacups, yes, sir. 194 00:08:43,165 --> 00:08:46,133 Now let's keep in mind why she was going downhill 195 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:47,667 was because she was not eating. 196 00:08:47,734 --> 00:08:51,000 So those little critters lose weight really, really, really fast 197 00:08:51,066 --> 00:08:52,834 in just the fluid weight. 198 00:08:52,900 --> 00:08:55,367 -Yes, she could lose... -Okay, so my last question 199 00:08:55,433 --> 00:08:58,800 to you then, is gonna be, one of the exhibits that you provided us with 200 00:08:58,867 --> 00:09:01,467 was an exhibit, Exhibit 4 in your packet, 201 00:09:01,533 --> 00:09:04,500 -regarding symptoms of hypoglycemia. -[Holmes] Yes. 202 00:09:04,567 --> 00:09:06,533 When was it that you produced this? 203 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:09,633 Did you provide this document at any time to the plaintiff, 204 00:09:09,700 --> 00:09:11,767 or did you just provide this to us? 205 00:09:11,834 --> 00:09:16,633 No, I provided it to the plaintiff, and I provide it to every puppy that leaves. 206 00:09:16,700 --> 00:09:19,200 Okay, stop. I'm looking at the plaintiff now. Is that correct? 207 00:09:19,266 --> 00:09:22,266 Do you recall getting a document from the defendant 208 00:09:22,333 --> 00:09:24,800 -listing the symptoms of hypoglycemia? -No, Your Honor. 209 00:09:24,867 --> 00:09:26,433 -No, Your Honor. -Okay, thank you. 210 00:09:26,500 --> 00:09:27,900 I have no further questions. Judge Acker? 211 00:09:27,967 --> 00:09:32,500 Sadly, I am all too familiar with this situation. 212 00:09:32,567 --> 00:09:35,266 -I had a teacup Maltese... -Mm-hm. 213 00:09:35,333 --> 00:09:38,165 ...and she lived a long time 214 00:09:38,233 --> 00:09:40,867 -but it was after I got her over the hump. -[Holmes] Mm-hm. 215 00:09:40,934 --> 00:09:44,367 I bought her. When I bought her, I should say, 216 00:09:44,433 --> 00:09:48,700 the seller represented that she was three months old. 217 00:09:48,767 --> 00:09:51,667 -Mm-hm. -We had a strong suspicion 218 00:09:51,734 --> 00:09:54,433 that because it was a very valuable puppy, 219 00:09:54,500 --> 00:09:58,633 that the seller may have been selling them a little early. 220 00:09:58,700 --> 00:10:03,000 'Cause my little girl, I mean, it was a struggle to keep her alive, 221 00:10:03,066 --> 00:10:06,333 and it wasn't even a situation where I could leave food around 222 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:09,300 because she wouldn't eat it. I think she just wanted her mom. 223 00:10:09,967 --> 00:10:12,233 [narrator] Coming up on Tribunal Justice. 224 00:10:12,300 --> 00:10:15,166 Is there any way that a buyer of a puppy 225 00:10:15,233 --> 00:10:18,467 can verify with you when the puppy was born, 226 00:10:18,533 --> 00:10:20,934 what the puppy weighed at birth? 227 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:22,233 -Anything like that? -No. 228 00:10:22,300 --> 00:10:24,667 Why don't you keep those sorts of records? 229 00:10:31,567 --> 00:10:35,066 [narrator] Candace Lance is suing dog seller Virginia Holmes 230 00:10:35,133 --> 00:10:37,633 for vet bills and pain and suffering, 231 00:10:37,700 --> 00:10:41,800 after the puppy she purchased from Virginia died days later. 232 00:10:41,867 --> 00:10:45,834 Virginia claims Candace didn't feed the puppy properly. 233 00:10:46,567 --> 00:10:51,367 So it is your representation that you sold Snuggles 234 00:10:51,433 --> 00:10:55,333 -when she was twelve weeks old. -Twelve weeks old. 235 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:57,934 Do you have any verification system? 236 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:02,800 Is there any way that a buyer of a puppy can verify with you 237 00:11:02,867 --> 00:11:07,066 when the puppy was born, what the puppy weighed at birth? 238 00:11:07,133 --> 00:11:08,333 -Anything like that? -No. 239 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:10,734 Why don't you keep those sorts of records? 240 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:12,834 I probably should from here on out now, 241 00:11:12,900 --> 00:11:15,033 but I don't feel that that's really important 242 00:11:15,100 --> 00:11:19,467 because I personally are with my puppies from the time they're born 243 00:11:19,533 --> 00:11:24,266 and I see them advance and I see them grow and get healthy. 244 00:11:24,333 --> 00:11:27,400 -But you don't have any records... -No, I don't have any records. 245 00:11:27,467 --> 00:11:31,467 ...and you don't have any records that you can show a buyer 246 00:11:31,533 --> 00:11:34,800 that would indicate that the puppy 247 00:11:34,867 --> 00:11:40,667 was born on X date, the puppy went to a vet checkup on Y date. 248 00:11:40,734 --> 00:11:42,165 -You have nothing like that? -No. 249 00:11:42,233 --> 00:11:45,333 So I don't know what you did 250 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:49,667 and you aren't in a position to prove it because you don't have anything. 251 00:11:49,734 --> 00:11:52,500 It's not her job to prove it, Ms. Lance, 252 00:11:52,567 --> 00:11:57,500 it's your burden to demonstrate that she's responsible for your injuries. 253 00:11:57,567 --> 00:12:00,867 So I said all of that to say, first off, 254 00:12:00,934 --> 00:12:04,800 these are very, very fragile animals when they're that young. 255 00:12:04,867 --> 00:12:06,900 -We should also point out... -Yes, ma'am. 256 00:12:06,967 --> 00:12:09,467 ...that you had Snuggles for three days. 257 00:12:09,533 --> 00:12:14,967 When Snuggles passed away, Ms. Holmes reimbursed you for the cost. 258 00:12:15,033 --> 00:12:16,834 But you're now seeking more. 259 00:12:16,900 --> 00:12:20,567 You want your vet bills and you want to be compensated for pain and suffering. 260 00:12:20,633 --> 00:12:23,700 Your burden in this case is to demonstrate 261 00:12:23,767 --> 00:12:27,533 that her wrongdoing, which one, you have to prove, 262 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:32,000 is responsible for your damages. The second thing you have to prove. 263 00:12:32,066 --> 00:12:35,266 I don't know, from my perspective, 264 00:12:35,333 --> 00:12:39,834 that you have carried your burden of demonstrating that she's responsible. 265 00:12:39,900 --> 00:12:42,300 -So, what is your evidence... -Yes, ma'am. 266 00:12:42,367 --> 00:12:45,033 ...that she knew that Snuggles was sick? 267 00:12:45,100 --> 00:12:47,867 Well, when I told her that she was very listless, 268 00:12:47,934 --> 00:12:51,033 she said, "Well, it's low blood sugar, you need to give her some honey." 269 00:12:51,100 --> 00:12:54,200 And I says, "Well, then she's been like this before." 270 00:12:54,266 --> 00:12:56,533 And she says, "Yes, but she'll snap right out of it 271 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:58,633 -if you give her some honey." -[whispers] No... 272 00:12:58,700 --> 00:13:02,567 So I gave her the honey and she did snap out of it for a while. 273 00:13:02,633 --> 00:13:07,300 When she gave me the-- the dog food, she said that it was grain-free 274 00:13:07,367 --> 00:13:10,166 and that that was very important for her to have. 275 00:13:10,233 --> 00:13:13,834 And I didn't change the dog food, but when I went to the vet, 276 00:13:13,900 --> 00:13:18,867 they said that it's very important for them to have grain, not grain-free, 277 00:13:18,934 --> 00:13:21,200 and that they were dying from heart failure. 278 00:13:21,266 --> 00:13:23,500 [Acker] So are you holding her responsible 279 00:13:23,567 --> 00:13:25,367 for giving you bad instructions 280 00:13:25,433 --> 00:13:27,133 -about Snuggles' care? -Absolutely. 281 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,166 So it sounds like your complaint's really premised on two things. 282 00:13:30,233 --> 00:13:34,165 One, you say she gave you bad instructions regarding the care of the dog. 283 00:13:34,233 --> 00:13:39,533 Secondly, you've also suggested that she knew that Snuggles was sick 284 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,100 and I don't see any evidence of that knowledge. 285 00:13:42,165 --> 00:13:43,967 Now, her absence of evidence, 286 00:13:44,033 --> 00:13:46,266 one might be able to infer something from that, 287 00:13:46,333 --> 00:13:47,867 but I'm not prepared to do that. 288 00:13:47,934 --> 00:13:48,934 I happen to know 289 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,500 that these dogs won't necessarily eat if you just leave stuff around. 290 00:13:52,567 --> 00:13:54,734 -So we'll have to consider that. -Yes, ma'am. 291 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:56,066 Thank you both. Judge DiMango? 292 00:13:56,133 --> 00:13:59,165 All right, can I see the video one more time, please? 293 00:13:59,233 --> 00:14:03,200 If you can, Judge Levy, just mark off where Snuggles is 294 00:14:03,266 --> 00:14:05,233 for us so I can kind of see. 295 00:14:06,433 --> 00:14:09,567 [Holmes] Here comes Snuggles, right there on the left in the corner. 296 00:14:10,033 --> 00:14:13,166 The red one with the white dobby on top of the head. 297 00:14:13,867 --> 00:14:17,266 -[Holmes] Right-- Right there. -[DiMango] The one in the middle... 298 00:14:17,834 --> 00:14:20,033 -[DiMango] I see him. Okay. -[Holmes] Right there. 299 00:14:20,100 --> 00:14:22,066 [Holmes] If I had a poker, I'd show-- 300 00:14:22,567 --> 00:14:24,000 -[Lance] Your Honor. -Okay. 301 00:14:24,066 --> 00:14:25,800 -[Levy] Is that it? -[DiMango] I believe that's it. 302 00:14:25,867 --> 00:14:27,867 [DiMango] To be honest with you when I see this, 303 00:14:27,934 --> 00:14:32,133 I don't see Snuggles in that litter or that group 304 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:34,000 as active as the other puppies. 305 00:14:34,066 --> 00:14:37,600 I see her kind of moving around, but mostly because she seems to be 306 00:14:37,667 --> 00:14:39,233 -being pushed around. -Mm-hm. 307 00:14:39,300 --> 00:14:40,734 There's a couple of things that bother me. 308 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,834 -[Holmes] Okay. -One. When you were asked by Judge Levy, 309 00:14:43,900 --> 00:14:46,867 you knew right away when she called that the sugar was low. 310 00:14:46,934 --> 00:14:49,700 That tells me you knew before that the sugar was low. 311 00:14:49,767 --> 00:14:52,233 She never had a low sugar before. 312 00:14:52,300 --> 00:14:55,266 So then how did you know--? How did you know immediately then? 313 00:14:55,333 --> 00:14:58,033 -The remedy-- -Because I've been doing it for 40 years. 314 00:14:58,100 --> 00:15:00,367 -I know-- Okay. -I need you to stop. 315 00:15:00,433 --> 00:15:03,867 The remedy here was to immediately give the puppy sugar. 316 00:15:03,934 --> 00:15:07,033 Yes, and for her to feed it more. I said you have to feed it more. 317 00:15:07,100 --> 00:15:09,300 -You have to do the soft food-- -I'm gonna stop you there 318 00:15:09,367 --> 00:15:11,266 -because now I'm gonna go to you. -[Holmes] Yes. 319 00:15:11,333 --> 00:15:15,200 I have looked at the instructions that she gave you and she does say, 320 00:15:15,266 --> 00:15:18,567 she says leave out dry food during the day 321 00:15:18,633 --> 00:15:22,266 and use a tablespoon, I guess, of wet food 322 00:15:22,333 --> 00:15:24,400 -three times a day. -Three times a day, that's what I did. 323 00:15:24,467 --> 00:15:27,867 But she's not saying only feed the puppy three times a day, 324 00:15:27,934 --> 00:15:30,467 what she's saying is leave out all the food 325 00:15:30,533 --> 00:15:32,867 -which is what she's testified doing here. -And that's what I did. 326 00:15:32,934 --> 00:15:35,567 -Did you do that? -Yes, ma'am, I did. 327 00:15:35,633 --> 00:15:38,900 Now, the other issue I have is grain-free. 328 00:15:38,967 --> 00:15:41,867 Feeding a puppy, grain-free food 329 00:15:41,934 --> 00:15:45,233 is what makes their glucose go down. 330 00:15:45,300 --> 00:15:50,000 So if you're treating a puppy whose glucose is low, 331 00:15:50,066 --> 00:15:52,233 with grain-free foods, 332 00:15:52,300 --> 00:15:57,433 then you're not helping that puppy's sugar level become equalized. 333 00:15:57,500 --> 00:16:01,467 So in fact what she was doing based on your directions, 334 00:16:01,533 --> 00:16:06,934 was really hindering the puppy's sugar production rather than helping it. 335 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:11,400 Yes, but the soft food is what I was pushing. 336 00:16:11,467 --> 00:16:12,633 See, I think what happens is 337 00:16:12,700 --> 00:16:15,867 -people involved in this business... -Mm-hm. 338 00:16:15,934 --> 00:16:19,834 tend to become overconfident in their ability 339 00:16:19,900 --> 00:16:25,633 to diagnose, treat and cure illnesses when they are not vets. 340 00:16:26,367 --> 00:16:28,633 [narrator] Coming up on Tribunal Justice. 341 00:16:28,700 --> 00:16:31,166 I'm trying to look at this as objectively as I can. 342 00:16:31,233 --> 00:16:35,100 Whether or not that puppy was known to you to have some problems. 343 00:16:35,165 --> 00:16:36,533 I know you keep shaking your head 344 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:38,533 and you can shake your head till your ears fall off. 345 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:42,200 That's not going to make me change my opinion unless I get the right answers. 346 00:16:50,567 --> 00:16:54,533 I think it was laudable that you returned the money to her for the dog. 347 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:56,967 I think that's nice, but now the other two issues here, 348 00:16:57,033 --> 00:16:59,834 what you're suing for, are really more important, 349 00:16:59,900 --> 00:17:01,467 and that is two-fold. 350 00:17:01,533 --> 00:17:05,032 One, your alleged post-traumatic stress 351 00:17:05,099 --> 00:17:10,867 and the need to have more than $3,000 in pain and suffering 352 00:17:10,934 --> 00:17:13,066 for a puppy that you had three days. 353 00:17:13,133 --> 00:17:14,666 I fell in love with that puppy-- 354 00:17:14,733 --> 00:17:17,300 I get it but people fall in love with people in three days 355 00:17:17,367 --> 00:17:19,266 and they don't become so traumatized. 356 00:17:19,333 --> 00:17:22,032 The second thing is the vet bills. 357 00:17:22,099 --> 00:17:25,400 I would feel that unless I could somehow attribute knowledge 358 00:17:25,467 --> 00:17:29,800 to the defendant that she gave you a puppy that she knew was ill, 359 00:17:29,867 --> 00:17:32,300 or suffering from some affliction, 360 00:17:32,367 --> 00:17:35,734 that you bought a puppy and you brought the puppy to a vet 361 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:38,467 and that would be perhaps your expense. 362 00:17:38,533 --> 00:17:41,900 But the burden-- Again, the burden is yours to show that she knew, 363 00:17:41,967 --> 00:17:45,333 and I'm trying to look at this as objectively as I can from both ends. 364 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:49,533 Whether or not that puppy was known to you to have some problems-- 365 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:50,934 I know you keep shaking your head 366 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:52,967 and you can shake your head till your ears fall off, 367 00:17:53,033 --> 00:17:56,200 that's not going to make me change my opinion unless I get the right answers. 368 00:17:56,266 --> 00:17:58,700 -Yes. -So, you know, I'm still not comfortable 369 00:17:58,767 --> 00:18:01,400 that you did not know when you gave her the puppy 370 00:18:01,467 --> 00:18:05,700 that there were some issues with regard to at least her blood sugar. 371 00:18:05,767 --> 00:18:09,500 The diagnosis, according to what I see here, 372 00:18:09,567 --> 00:18:14,066 was that she had tumors on her spleen and tumor on her liver. 373 00:18:14,133 --> 00:18:16,600 -Is this the diagnosis? -I have this paper-- This is from the vet 374 00:18:16,667 --> 00:18:18,100 that took care of her. 375 00:18:18,166 --> 00:18:21,200 -The diagnosis as to what was wrong... -Everything. 376 00:18:21,266 --> 00:18:22,567 ...because ultimately you say 377 00:18:22,633 --> 00:18:25,166 that a needle was inserted into the puppy's heart. 378 00:18:25,233 --> 00:18:28,166 Yes, they couldn't-- She was so small that they couldn't get a vein 379 00:18:28,233 --> 00:18:32,400 and so they put a heart cath in her to draw the blood. 380 00:18:32,467 --> 00:18:35,233 -They killed my dog. Yes. -Doctor, would you please be quiet? 381 00:18:35,300 --> 00:18:37,834 Now, I don't know that, that's hearsay. 382 00:18:37,900 --> 00:18:39,767 If it's in that document, we're going to look at it 383 00:18:39,834 --> 00:18:41,300 -and we're gonna see. -[Lance] They have it in here. 384 00:18:41,367 --> 00:18:43,967 So you'll have to pass that up, Cassandra, please, thank you. 385 00:18:44,033 --> 00:18:45,767 -And... -Thank you. 386 00:18:46,834 --> 00:18:48,734 [Lance] And she died of heart failure. 387 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,600 -Now, the other thing that I had. -[Holmes] I wonder why? 388 00:18:52,133 --> 00:18:56,834 So one other thing that goes to your claim for emotional distress, 389 00:18:56,900 --> 00:18:59,533 you have here that you've applied for a emotional... 390 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,967 Emotional support animal and service animal. 391 00:19:03,033 --> 00:19:05,800 Now did you ever go for any medical follow-up that you needed one? 392 00:19:05,867 --> 00:19:09,600 Yes, I had gone from having sleep pattern 393 00:19:09,667 --> 00:19:11,967 from three hours to four hours a night, 394 00:19:12,033 --> 00:19:16,000 and the puppy slept with me for two nights. I slept right through. 395 00:19:16,066 --> 00:19:20,066 Now, I have a puppy now and the same thing is true. 396 00:19:20,133 --> 00:19:23,567 That might be the answer to my problems then, thank you Ms. Lance. 397 00:19:23,633 --> 00:19:24,800 -[Levy] If I could, Ms. Holmes. -Yes. 398 00:19:24,867 --> 00:19:30,500 How long had you been feeding the puppy grain-free food? 399 00:19:30,567 --> 00:19:34,066 They can only start eating the hard food until they're like, 400 00:19:34,133 --> 00:19:35,900 maybe about seven, eight weeks 401 00:19:35,967 --> 00:19:37,633 because tiny babies have tiny teeth. 402 00:19:37,700 --> 00:19:40,767 No, I get that. I get tiny babies have tiny teeth. So a full third 403 00:19:40,834 --> 00:19:46,767 of the puppy's life, you had been feeding her grain-free food, correct? 404 00:19:46,834 --> 00:19:47,800 Off and on, yeah. 405 00:19:47,867 --> 00:19:53,100 And just so I'm clear, in the document that you provided to us on hypoglycemia, 406 00:19:53,166 --> 00:19:57,500 you would concede that the causes of hypoglycemia in dogs 407 00:19:57,567 --> 00:20:01,533 include liver failure and liver cancer, correct? 408 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:03,667 There's no way that puppy could have had a tumor. 409 00:20:03,734 --> 00:20:07,200 They could not have even seen that tumor on that eight-pound puppy. 410 00:20:07,266 --> 00:20:09,600 [Levy] Are you just as sure of that testimony 411 00:20:09,667 --> 00:20:12,867 that it was impossible for this vet to know 412 00:20:12,934 --> 00:20:17,767 that the puppy had a tumor, as you were about everything else you told us today? 413 00:20:17,834 --> 00:20:18,867 -Yes. -You know what, 414 00:20:18,934 --> 00:20:20,567 -I've no further questions. Okay. -Thank you. 415 00:20:20,633 --> 00:20:24,166 [DiMango] And at this point, then, we're going to retire to deliberate. 416 00:20:24,233 --> 00:20:26,367 -Thank you all. -[Byrd] Court now stands in recess. 417 00:20:26,433 --> 00:20:27,934 Parties are excused. 418 00:20:29,533 --> 00:20:32,867 You know, putting aside for a moment how sad the case is 419 00:20:32,934 --> 00:20:35,033 and how cute that puppy was, 420 00:20:35,100 --> 00:20:38,734 and the fact that there was a lot of the testimony coming from the defendant 421 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:40,633 that made me extremely uncomfortable. 422 00:20:40,700 --> 00:20:44,266 The problem is, I would love nothing more than to give the plaintiff 423 00:20:44,333 --> 00:20:46,734 the vet bills that she's asking for-- 424 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,133 Forget about the pain and suffering, but I'd love to give her the vet bills. 425 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,667 But unfortunately, without having experts come in and testify 426 00:20:53,734 --> 00:20:58,133 that the puppy could not have become so sick in the three days 427 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:00,900 and that what the actual diagnosis was 428 00:21:00,967 --> 00:21:04,300 because notwithstanding the plaintiff's providing us 429 00:21:04,367 --> 00:21:07,200 with the vet bills and the vet records, 430 00:21:07,266 --> 00:21:09,834 there's nothing in there that mentions tumors, 431 00:21:09,900 --> 00:21:12,300 and that's what I was banking on. 432 00:21:12,367 --> 00:21:15,600 But it's not there and what she was told by the vet is hearsay. 433 00:21:15,667 --> 00:21:18,600 She already gave back the $1200. The defendant did, 434 00:21:18,667 --> 00:21:21,367 and I believe that that's the extent of the damages and that's been paid, 435 00:21:21,433 --> 00:21:23,500 so I'm inclined to dismiss the case. 436 00:21:23,567 --> 00:21:27,266 I felt like the more the defendant said, 437 00:21:27,333 --> 00:21:31,700 the less credible I found her and the more troublesome I found her position. 438 00:21:31,767 --> 00:21:33,633 I think it's suspicious 439 00:21:33,700 --> 00:21:36,600 that there are no records of when the dog was born, 440 00:21:36,667 --> 00:21:38,834 how much the dog weighed when the dog was born. 441 00:21:38,900 --> 00:21:40,934 So I've got all sorts of problems there, 442 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,200 but it was the plaintiff's burden to come to court 443 00:21:44,266 --> 00:21:45,900 and close those dots. 444 00:21:45,967 --> 00:21:49,767 And as sad as I think it is, as sad as I think she is, 445 00:21:49,834 --> 00:21:53,600 she hasn't done it to my satisfaction. I would dismiss. 446 00:21:53,667 --> 00:21:57,000 I'm clear on dismissing the pain and suffering, but the bottom line is 447 00:21:57,066 --> 00:22:00,867 I think that the plaintiff might have had an issue getting her burden in, 448 00:22:00,934 --> 00:22:04,266 but I think the defendant's answers and behavior 449 00:22:04,333 --> 00:22:06,600 might have put the plaintiff over that threshold. 450 00:22:06,667 --> 00:22:09,867 I'm torn between saying, "Look, you bought the puppy, 451 00:22:09,934 --> 00:22:12,000 you had the puppy three days, you brought it to the doctor, 452 00:22:12,066 --> 00:22:13,500 you're out of luck, but on the other hand, 453 00:22:13,567 --> 00:22:15,533 I kind of feel like this defendant knew 454 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:17,734 and I think she kind of conveyed that to us, 455 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,633 so I would not be uncomfortable giving the plaintiff the vet bills. 456 00:22:21,700 --> 00:22:24,533 From reading over the complaint, the answer, 457 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,100 and going through the documents that were provided to us, the evidence, 458 00:22:28,166 --> 00:22:30,266 I would love to do it, and I would be the last person 459 00:22:30,333 --> 00:22:31,633 to buy a dog from this defendant. 460 00:22:31,700 --> 00:22:34,066 -I think-- I think she's shady. -It's a preponder... 461 00:22:34,133 --> 00:22:37,000 Yeah, and it's a preponderance, you know sometimes it's hard to say 462 00:22:37,066 --> 00:22:39,100 you know, she's just tipped the scale slightly. 463 00:22:39,166 --> 00:22:41,033 I'm not comfortable with the defendant, 464 00:22:41,100 --> 00:22:44,400 but for me, that doesn't mean that the plaintiff has met her burden. 465 00:22:44,467 --> 00:22:45,867 -So I will dissent. -[Levy] Okay. 466 00:22:45,934 --> 00:22:47,333 -We have a very sad case. -We have a split decision, 467 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:48,500 I'll make it clear. 468 00:22:51,767 --> 00:22:55,000 Court is back in session. I remind parties, you're still under oath. 469 00:22:55,100 --> 00:22:56,433 -[Levy] Thank you, Byrd. -Mm-hm. 470 00:22:56,500 --> 00:22:58,800 This is where we stand after our deliberations. 471 00:22:58,867 --> 00:23:02,233 We are unanimous that your request, Ms. Lance, 472 00:23:02,300 --> 00:23:05,967 for $3,140 in pain and suffering, 473 00:23:06,033 --> 00:23:08,867 although clearly, you suffered pain 474 00:23:08,934 --> 00:23:13,367 and you did suffer emotional distress as a result of the loss of the puppy. 475 00:23:13,433 --> 00:23:17,367 It doesn't rise to the level of what the law requires in order to-- 476 00:23:17,433 --> 00:23:19,667 To have that as a successful claim, 477 00:23:19,734 --> 00:23:22,333 so unanimously, that aspect of your suit is dismissed. 478 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:26,500 -Yes, Your Honor. -With respect to the $1,860 in vet bills, 479 00:23:26,567 --> 00:23:27,700 we are split. 480 00:23:27,767 --> 00:23:32,834 Judge DiMango, based upon all that she heard from you, from the defendant, 481 00:23:32,900 --> 00:23:36,767 the fact that the defendant did not have and provide to you at the sale, 482 00:23:36,834 --> 00:23:40,266 with any medical history whatsoever of the dog, 483 00:23:40,333 --> 00:23:44,800 taken in conjunction with the fact that she was specifically instructing you 484 00:23:44,867 --> 00:23:47,133 to give her grain-free food 485 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,633 indicated to her that the defendant knew she was selling you a sick dog. 486 00:23:50,700 --> 00:23:54,433 On the other hand, unfortunately for you, Judge Acker and I, 487 00:23:54,500 --> 00:23:56,900 while we-- And Judge Acker said it in the back, 488 00:23:56,967 --> 00:24:00,700 is extremely suspicious of the way in which the defendant sold you this dog. 489 00:24:00,767 --> 00:24:03,200 We get a lot of dog-breeding cases in this court 490 00:24:03,266 --> 00:24:06,166 and we haven't seen one in which the breeder, 491 00:24:06,233 --> 00:24:09,967 the responsible, respectful, reliable breeder 492 00:24:10,033 --> 00:24:13,900 doesn't provide records of when the puppy is born, 493 00:24:13,967 --> 00:24:15,567 how much the puppy weighed. 494 00:24:15,633 --> 00:24:18,467 All legitimate breeders do it. 495 00:24:18,533 --> 00:24:20,800 Why she didn't. Suspicious. 496 00:24:20,867 --> 00:24:23,800 But what we don't have, and what Judge Acker and I couldn't get over 497 00:24:23,867 --> 00:24:28,600 was the fact that you still have to be able to prove, besides circumstantially, 498 00:24:28,667 --> 00:24:31,667 that the defendant knew she was selling you a damaged puppy. 499 00:24:31,734 --> 00:24:34,066 And without an expert coming in here to say that, 500 00:24:34,133 --> 00:24:35,600 you just don't meet your burden. 501 00:24:35,667 --> 00:24:38,633 It doesn't mean that it wasn't extremely sad, it sure was, 502 00:24:38,700 --> 00:24:40,433 but you have another puppy now. 503 00:24:40,500 --> 00:24:41,867 -The puppy's healthy? -Yes. 504 00:24:41,934 --> 00:24:44,500 -Puppy's giving you comfort and support? -Yes, she is. 505 00:24:44,567 --> 00:24:48,700 The defendant did the right thing by giving you back to $1,200 you spent, 506 00:24:48,767 --> 00:24:51,734 but it's the verdict of the court that you are not going to get back 507 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,600 those vet bills and we just wish you and your new puppy 508 00:24:54,667 --> 00:24:56,834 nothing but happiness in the years to come. 509 00:24:56,900 --> 00:24:58,200 -[Lance] Thank you. -Thank you. 510 00:24:58,266 --> 00:25:00,333 [Byrd] This case is now concluded 511 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,333 Parties are excused. You may step out. 512 00:25:04,367 --> 00:25:07,266 I respect the opinion of three judges. 513 00:25:07,333 --> 00:25:08,633 I feel good about this. 514 00:25:08,700 --> 00:25:11,333 I do believe she knew the puppy was very sick. 515 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,600 I did not sell her a sick puppy. The puppy was very healthy. 516 00:25:14,667 --> 00:25:17,066 Go to a vet like I did with this other one. 517 00:25:17,133 --> 00:25:19,734 I really wish she would have just brought the puppy back to me 518 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:20,967 and we wouldn't been here. 519 00:25:21,033 --> 00:25:22,133 Get a vet's opinion. 520 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:23,200 I'm happy it's over. 521 00:25:23,266 --> 00:25:25,066 [narrator] Does someone owe you money? 522 00:25:25,767 --> 00:25:29,066 Let Tribunal Justice decide your case. 523 00:25:29,133 --> 00:25:32,033 Find us on social media at Tribunal Justice.