1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:03,133 -[Acker] You loaned her this money? -Yes. 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:05,967 -Is that true? -Let's just get this over with. 3 00:00:06,033 --> 00:00:08,467 You should simmer down on the attitude. 4 00:00:08,533 --> 00:00:09,734 I'm done. 5 00:00:12,166 --> 00:00:14,266 That's why we broke up. 6 00:00:15,266 --> 00:00:18,133 You're probably like, I win, right? 7 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:19,266 Not exactly. 8 00:00:19,333 --> 00:00:21,400 [announcer] Today on Tribunal Justice. 9 00:00:21,467 --> 00:00:24,934 [opening theme music plays] 10 00:00:42,533 --> 00:00:46,233 This case was filed in Toms River, New Jersey. 11 00:00:46,300 --> 00:00:48,900 Yes, this is case number 1027 on the calendar 12 00:00:48,967 --> 00:00:51,300 in the matter of DeSantis versus Hafner. 13 00:00:51,367 --> 00:00:53,533 Parties have been sworn in. You may be seated. 14 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:55,667 -Thank you, Byrd. -You're welcome, Judge. 15 00:00:55,734 --> 00:00:59,467 -Ms. DeSantis, the defendant is your ex. -[DeSantis] Yes. 16 00:00:59,533 --> 00:01:01,900 When you were dating, you allege in your complaint 17 00:01:01,967 --> 00:01:05,000 that you made various loans to her for different things. 18 00:01:05,066 --> 00:01:08,567 -Yes. -One of those things was a vet bill. 19 00:01:08,633 --> 00:01:14,467 She had a pitbull beagle mix that needed some treatment. 20 00:01:14,533 --> 00:01:17,200 You paid for that. You expected her to pay you back. 21 00:01:17,265 --> 00:01:19,033 You allege that she did not, 22 00:01:19,100 --> 00:01:22,333 so you're now suing her for $409, 23 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,800 which includes the vet bill and some other miscellaneous items. 24 00:01:25,867 --> 00:01:28,400 Ms. Hafner, you say that this lawsuit 25 00:01:28,467 --> 00:01:31,834 is about nothing more than the plaintiff's spite. 26 00:01:31,900 --> 00:01:35,265 She did give you the money in order to pay for the vet bill. 27 00:01:35,333 --> 00:01:38,967 She said don't worry about it. Pay me back when you can. 28 00:01:39,033 --> 00:01:41,533 You ended the relationship shortly thereafter, 29 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:44,000 and then she started hounding you for this money. 30 00:01:44,066 --> 00:01:47,400 -Yes. -And you refuse to pay her a dime. 31 00:01:47,467 --> 00:01:49,567 I never said I wouldn't pay her a dime. I just-- 32 00:01:49,633 --> 00:01:52,100 You said that in your answer. Are you changing your mind? 33 00:01:52,467 --> 00:01:54,533 I never said... I didn't say that. I said I would pay her. 34 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:56,133 Can I see the complaint? 35 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:58,200 I just wanna make sure we stay on the same page. 36 00:01:58,734 --> 00:02:00,200 Thank you, Byrd. 37 00:02:02,767 --> 00:02:04,400 Byrd, can you show that to the defendant, please? 38 00:02:04,467 --> 00:02:05,467 Sure. 39 00:02:05,533 --> 00:02:07,700 I'm showing you a signed copy of your answer. 40 00:02:07,767 --> 00:02:09,900 -Is that your signature at the bottom? -Yes. 41 00:02:09,967 --> 00:02:13,200 Can you read the last sentence before your signature? 42 00:02:14,767 --> 00:02:17,633 "I refuse to pay her a dime," but you don't let me explain why. 43 00:02:17,700 --> 00:02:19,834 No, no, no. Just so we're clear, I didn't write it. 44 00:02:19,900 --> 00:02:21,600 That's the complaint that was given to me. 45 00:02:21,667 --> 00:02:24,166 -Yeah. Okay. -That you swore out and that you signed. 46 00:02:24,233 --> 00:02:26,900 So, I'm now moving on. You can change your testimony. 47 00:02:26,966 --> 00:02:28,000 -Okay. -But what you're not gonna do 48 00:02:28,066 --> 00:02:30,500 -is say that words don't exist. -Yeah, that's fine. 49 00:02:30,567 --> 00:02:33,100 -Please don't talk when I'm talking. -All right. All right. 50 00:02:33,934 --> 00:02:34,934 Thank you. 51 00:02:35,734 --> 00:02:39,934 There are two bundles of money, Ms. DeSantis, that you're suing for. 52 00:02:40,333 --> 00:02:43,900 -[DeSantis] Yes. -The vet bill was $309, is that right? 53 00:02:43,966 --> 00:02:46,266 -Yes. -I didn't see any evidence pertaining 54 00:02:46,333 --> 00:02:47,667 to these other loans. 55 00:02:47,734 --> 00:02:51,233 And part of the defendant's claim is that you two were in a relationship. 56 00:02:51,300 --> 00:02:53,500 -Mm-hmm. -So she paid for some stuff. 57 00:02:53,867 --> 00:02:55,667 -You paid for some stuff. -[DeSantis] Yes. 58 00:02:55,734 --> 00:02:57,966 I wanna deal with the vet bill separately. 59 00:02:58,033 --> 00:03:01,033 But what's the evidence of these other debts? 60 00:03:01,633 --> 00:03:05,667 On page one, there's the ATM withdrawals... 61 00:03:05,734 --> 00:03:08,867 -...um, that I took out for her. -How could you say that's for me? 62 00:03:08,934 --> 00:03:12,633 -Don't talk when she's talking. -For her ex-girlfriend... 63 00:03:12,700 --> 00:03:14,266 she needed money to-- 64 00:03:14,333 --> 00:03:17,633 Well, wait, you're showing me your exhibit one, 65 00:03:17,700 --> 00:03:21,133 and I see ATM, the bank name, the withdrawal name. 66 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:23,966 -You took out the withdrawal... -[DeSantis] Yes. 67 00:03:24,033 --> 00:03:28,433 For $70, and then another withdrawal the next day for a hundred dollars. 68 00:03:28,500 --> 00:03:32,667 I don't know where that money went to whom it was directed or what it was for. 69 00:03:32,734 --> 00:03:36,300 So, is it your testimony that I'm supposed to look at these totally generic 70 00:03:36,367 --> 00:03:39,800 ATM receipts and say that this is a debt that she owes? 71 00:03:39,867 --> 00:03:41,667 I mean, I get where you're coming from, but I did- 72 00:03:41,734 --> 00:03:44,133 -[Acker] I'm glad. -I did give her the money. 73 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:46,700 When? I see two blank receipts. 74 00:03:46,767 --> 00:03:49,300 All that tells me is that you pulled money out of the bank. 75 00:03:49,367 --> 00:03:52,166 So, what did you do with that $170? 76 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:54,133 Direct your attention up here, please. 77 00:03:54,633 --> 00:03:59,200 I took out the 170 and she paid me 180. 78 00:03:59,266 --> 00:04:00,934 What was that 170 for? 79 00:04:01,333 --> 00:04:03,500 She needed to pay money to her ex-girlfriend 80 00:04:03,567 --> 00:04:04,667 in order to see her daughter. 81 00:04:04,734 --> 00:04:08,867 So, Ms. Hafner, this $170 that the plaintiff's testified about, 82 00:04:08,934 --> 00:04:13,633 do you acknowledge receiving that money on or around the 19th or 20th of August? 83 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:15,400 Mmm... I guess. 84 00:04:15,934 --> 00:04:19,899 You should simmer down on the attitude because you don't have much to prove. 85 00:04:19,966 --> 00:04:22,065 -Okay, I mean I can do what I want, but-- -It's her burden of proof. 86 00:04:22,132 --> 00:04:24,133 You can do what you want. Is that what you just said? 87 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:26,867 I would walk out right now. Thank you for the vacation. 88 00:04:26,934 --> 00:04:30,233 There's no chain gang here. You're being dealt with respectfully. 89 00:04:30,300 --> 00:04:32,500 -I know, but I'm-- okay. -So stop talking now. 90 00:04:32,567 --> 00:04:34,332 -Okay, no problem. -Good. You're done now. 91 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:35,867 -Okay. -Now we're gonna go back to you... 92 00:04:35,933 --> 00:04:41,066 because, her abominable attitude notwithstanding, I don't understand. 93 00:04:41,133 --> 00:04:42,633 -She does have a burden of proof. -[Byrd] You're going the wrong way. 94 00:04:42,700 --> 00:04:45,200 -Okay, well... -That's why we broke up. 95 00:04:45,266 --> 00:04:48,100 -[Byrd] What do you want? -[spectators tittering] 96 00:04:48,967 --> 00:04:52,200 Ms. DeSantis, you're probably like, I win, right? 97 00:04:52,266 --> 00:04:54,233 Not exactly. Not exactly. 98 00:04:54,300 --> 00:04:59,000 That outburst tells us a lot about her character, 99 00:04:59,066 --> 00:05:01,834 but it doesn't necessarily prove your case. 100 00:05:01,900 --> 00:05:05,133 Now, let's look at a picture of this cute puppy. 101 00:05:06,066 --> 00:05:11,867 And I understand that the defendant's dog was in the custody of an ex-girlfriend. 102 00:05:11,934 --> 00:05:13,600 -Yes. -[Acker] She got the dog back. 103 00:05:13,667 --> 00:05:15,667 -Mm-hmm. -[Acker] And the dog was in bad shape. 104 00:05:15,734 --> 00:05:17,133 -Yes. -[Acker] Did you see the dog? 105 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:21,467 Yeah, so I actually picked her and the dog up the day she got the dog back. 106 00:05:21,533 --> 00:05:25,467 And we brought him to my house and gave him a bath because he was so filthy. 107 00:05:25,533 --> 00:05:27,533 You're in the animal business, aren't you? 108 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:29,166 Yeah, I've my own pet-sitting business. 109 00:05:29,233 --> 00:05:33,066 So, I looked at the evidence in this case, and here's what was clear to me. 110 00:05:33,567 --> 00:05:38,867 You did offer to pay the money, and she did at some point say, 111 00:05:38,933 --> 00:05:43,933 "I can't take care of this now. I may have to handle my dog's needs later." 112 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,667 -Mm-hmm. -So, explain to us why it was a loan. 113 00:05:46,734 --> 00:05:49,133 Did you know that she was gonna pay you back, 114 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:51,433 or were you just hoping she was gonna pay you back? 115 00:05:51,500 --> 00:05:54,400 Well, we've known each other for a while, and then when we started dating, 116 00:05:54,467 --> 00:05:57,332 like, we would, you know, treat each other and help each other out. 117 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,200 And I knew she was struggling a little bit with money. 118 00:06:00,266 --> 00:06:03,100 So, when I saw the dog, he had open wounds on his paws, 119 00:06:03,166 --> 00:06:06,967 and they were actively bleeding the day that I decided to take him. 120 00:06:07,033 --> 00:06:08,834 She doesn't have her license, 121 00:06:08,900 --> 00:06:12,500 so it would've been on me to get her and the dog that next week. 122 00:06:12,567 --> 00:06:14,400 But it wasn't on you to pay? 123 00:06:14,467 --> 00:06:16,100 -Like, you didn't have to pay. -[DeSantis] No. 124 00:06:16,166 --> 00:06:18,767 -And you knew she was having a hard time. -Yeah. 125 00:06:18,834 --> 00:06:22,400 And you knew she was having a hard time financially in particular, yes? 126 00:06:22,467 --> 00:06:25,100 So, what made you think you were gonna get this money back? 127 00:06:25,166 --> 00:06:28,133 -Just hopeful, I guess. -Just hopeful. 128 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:31,467 I thought, you know, that her being my girlfriend, that, 129 00:06:31,533 --> 00:06:33,332 you know, she said she would pay me back, 130 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:36,332 so I was just believing her that she would pay me back. 131 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:38,000 She did say she was gonna pay you back? 132 00:06:38,066 --> 00:06:39,332 There's proof, yes. 133 00:06:39,700 --> 00:06:41,867 When did she say she was going to pay you back? 134 00:06:41,933 --> 00:06:44,166 She said she'd pay me back by September 6th. 135 00:06:44,233 --> 00:06:45,967 What happened on September 6th? 136 00:06:46,033 --> 00:06:48,900 -You weren't paid back, I assume? -No, I wasn't paid anything. 137 00:06:48,967 --> 00:06:53,433 Now the defendant said that her papers, that she broke up with you 138 00:06:53,500 --> 00:06:57,700 the day after you loaned her this money to pay for the dog. 139 00:06:57,767 --> 00:06:58,767 Is that true? 140 00:06:58,834 --> 00:07:02,367 Well, her dog attacked a dog. 141 00:07:02,433 --> 00:07:04,900 We were supposed to move in together, and I have my own. 142 00:07:04,967 --> 00:07:07,567 So, I knew after all the problems that we were having 143 00:07:07,633 --> 00:07:10,300 that it wasn't gonna work out, so I ended it, but she-- 144 00:07:10,367 --> 00:07:14,300 I ask you that because that's a big part of her defense. 145 00:07:14,367 --> 00:07:17,934 "I borrowed the money. I was supposed to be able to pay it back on my own time. 146 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,867 And she got really mad because I broke up with her precipitously. 147 00:07:20,934 --> 00:07:24,834 I broke up with her so quickly, and now she's suing me out of spite." 148 00:07:25,567 --> 00:07:26,667 That's not true. 149 00:07:26,734 --> 00:07:31,033 Okay, well now since the defendant's rejoined us-- 150 00:07:31,100 --> 00:07:32,200 Let's just get this over with. 151 00:07:32,266 --> 00:07:35,200 I won't disrespect you, but you certainly will not disrespect me. 152 00:07:35,266 --> 00:07:36,867 Absolutely, I don't wanna disrespect you. 153 00:07:36,933 --> 00:07:39,332 And I will conduct my examination as I choose, so please don't interrupt me. 154 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:40,600 Absolutely. No problem. 155 00:07:42,900 --> 00:07:45,166 [announcer] Coming up on Tribunal Justice. 156 00:07:45,233 --> 00:07:46,400 You really wanted to see her. 157 00:07:46,467 --> 00:07:48,000 See, that's what I'm really thinking here. 158 00:07:48,066 --> 00:07:50,300 -She asked multiple times to talk to her. -Hang on. Time up. 159 00:07:50,367 --> 00:07:51,867 -Sorry. -You were not holding that property 160 00:07:51,933 --> 00:07:53,332 so much 'cause you wanted money. 161 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:56,467 You really wanted to see her again because you didn't want this thing over. 162 00:07:56,533 --> 00:07:58,300 And this is really what this is all about. 163 00:07:58,367 --> 00:08:00,433 [dramatic music plays] 164 00:08:03,734 --> 00:08:05,867 [dramatic music plays] 165 00:08:05,934 --> 00:08:09,867 [announcer] Courtnee DeSantis is suing her ex-girlfriend Emily Hafner 166 00:08:09,934 --> 00:08:12,467 for unpaid loans and vet bills. 167 00:08:12,533 --> 00:08:16,266 Emily claims Courtnee is reacting out of spite for breaking up with her 168 00:08:16,332 --> 00:08:17,967 and owes her nothing. 169 00:08:18,033 --> 00:08:19,767 -You good now? -Perfect. 170 00:08:21,834 --> 00:08:27,033 What the plaintiff has suggested is that your defense, 171 00:08:27,100 --> 00:08:31,033 which is that she's suing you out of spite, is untrue. 172 00:08:31,100 --> 00:08:33,866 And what I was examining with her while you were gone 173 00:08:33,933 --> 00:08:39,734 was your claim that you broke up with her the day after she received this money. 174 00:08:39,799 --> 00:08:42,366 -Is that true? -Can I speak my story? 175 00:08:42,433 --> 00:08:44,033 No, you can answer my questions. 176 00:08:44,100 --> 00:08:45,967 I don't think the day after. No. 177 00:08:46,033 --> 00:08:47,367 [Acker] When did you break up with her? 178 00:08:47,433 --> 00:08:49,800 I don't know the specific date. We were never dating. 179 00:08:49,867 --> 00:08:51,500 We were never in a relationship. 180 00:08:51,567 --> 00:08:55,000 I'm gonna read your answer again because she said she's only suing 181 00:08:55,066 --> 00:08:56,400 because I broke up with her. 182 00:08:56,467 --> 00:08:58,066 Broke off what we had going on. 183 00:08:58,133 --> 00:09:01,433 She was never, I never once called her my girlfriend. 184 00:09:01,500 --> 00:09:02,633 -Never like that. -That doesn't matter. 185 00:09:02,700 --> 00:09:04,200 -That's not what I'm asking you. -Okay. 186 00:09:04,266 --> 00:09:07,600 So, is it your position that you don't owe her this money? 187 00:09:07,667 --> 00:09:09,266 I do, and I never said I didn't. 188 00:09:09,333 --> 00:09:11,533 She held my property at her house. 189 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,066 -What property? -All of my clothes, my bags of clothes. 190 00:09:14,133 --> 00:09:15,834 I have the text messages. 191 00:09:15,900 --> 00:09:17,734 When did she do that? 192 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:21,500 We planned on moving in together, and I had all of my stuff at her house. 193 00:09:21,567 --> 00:09:25,533 Literally bags and bags of clothes. We were not on good terms at all. 194 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,333 So, it wasn't just randomly breaking up with her because she did this. 195 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,166 And I told her, I have the money in my pocket, I can pay her back. 196 00:09:31,233 --> 00:09:32,367 I have no problem with that. 197 00:09:32,433 --> 00:09:34,467 She already threatened me with court. 198 00:09:34,533 --> 00:09:36,700 So, I was like fine, let's see what the judge has to say. 199 00:09:36,767 --> 00:09:40,000 And I'm not paying you back anything until you give me my property back. 200 00:09:40,066 --> 00:09:41,900 [Acker] Does she still have any of your property? 201 00:09:41,967 --> 00:09:43,233 She dropped it off after she filed. 202 00:09:43,300 --> 00:09:45,467 When did you file this case, Ms. DeSantis? 203 00:09:45,533 --> 00:09:48,567 -I don't know the exact date. -You know approximately when. 204 00:09:48,633 --> 00:09:51,000 -Just give me a month. Give me a week. -September. 205 00:09:51,066 --> 00:09:54,734 Because I did see a text message in your evidence. 206 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,100 -Mm-hmm. -That actually cuts both ways. 207 00:09:57,165 --> 00:10:01,967 Because in that text message the defendant admits that she owes you the money, 208 00:10:02,333 --> 00:10:05,467 but she also makes an allegation at that time. 209 00:10:05,533 --> 00:10:08,166 This isn't something that she came up with today in court. 210 00:10:08,233 --> 00:10:10,433 She made an allegation at that time 211 00:10:10,500 --> 00:10:13,567 that you were improperly withholding her property. 212 00:10:14,166 --> 00:10:17,600 So, I wanna talk to you about that, because I don't believe in self-help. 213 00:10:17,667 --> 00:10:18,600 Yeah. 214 00:10:18,667 --> 00:10:20,834 If you decide you're gonna take the law into your own hands, 215 00:10:20,900 --> 00:10:23,567 then I might wash my hands of the situation. 216 00:10:23,633 --> 00:10:25,200 Were you retaining her property? 217 00:10:25,266 --> 00:10:28,500 -I was for a little bit. -How much of her property did you retain? 218 00:10:28,567 --> 00:10:30,667 -What did you retain? -I had two bags of clothes. 219 00:10:30,734 --> 00:10:32,533 -When did you give it back? -September 6th. 220 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,767 -Tell me what the plaintiff withheld. -Probably like all of my clothes. 221 00:10:35,834 --> 00:10:37,266 He's my witness. He was there through everything. 222 00:10:37,333 --> 00:10:40,834 All of my clothes, my daughter's birth certificate, my shoes. 223 00:10:40,900 --> 00:10:43,467 -My hats, everything. -Because you were really mad. 224 00:10:43,533 --> 00:10:45,467 This is why I don't want you leave, 'cause see, 225 00:10:45,533 --> 00:10:47,567 she does have the burden of proof. 226 00:10:47,633 --> 00:10:49,133 You don't have to do anything. 227 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,165 You've gotta prove that it was not spite 228 00:10:52,233 --> 00:10:54,500 'cause here are the two things that concerned me. 229 00:10:54,567 --> 00:10:57,700 The text where you were withholding her items 230 00:10:57,767 --> 00:11:00,066 and the other text message where you said, 231 00:11:00,133 --> 00:11:03,700 "I don't care how much money it costs me, I'm gonna get you." 232 00:11:03,767 --> 00:11:05,033 And I'm paraphrasing. 233 00:11:05,100 --> 00:11:09,000 On September 6th, I said, "I'll be over in 20 minutes with your stuff." 234 00:11:09,066 --> 00:11:10,467 And she said, "Word. Thank you." 235 00:11:10,533 --> 00:11:13,567 So, I did drop off the rest of her stuff on September 6th. 236 00:11:13,633 --> 00:11:15,934 After you withheld it improperly. 237 00:11:16,633 --> 00:11:17,900 -Yes. -[Acker] Judge. 238 00:11:17,967 --> 00:11:22,233 You know it's just been a, a very rocky, volatile type of relationship, 239 00:11:22,300 --> 00:11:24,000 no matter how you wanna define it. 240 00:11:24,066 --> 00:11:26,834 Often that's the first sign that there's a problem in a relationship 241 00:11:26,900 --> 00:11:30,133 because you both don't see the relationship in the same way. 242 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,165 So, you're expecting different things from one another. 243 00:11:33,233 --> 00:11:35,100 Can I just say one thing as well? 244 00:11:35,165 --> 00:11:37,600 Like I blocked her number after she did file, 245 00:11:37,667 --> 00:11:40,400 and she texted me off multiple different numbers. 246 00:11:40,467 --> 00:11:42,633 Her work phone, a TextNow number. 247 00:11:42,700 --> 00:11:45,400 Just obsessive behavior, and I don't like that. 248 00:11:45,467 --> 00:11:47,600 Okay, that's a point because what happens is, 249 00:11:47,667 --> 00:11:50,200 not everybody wants the relationship to end 250 00:11:50,266 --> 00:11:52,533 regardless of how bumpy and shaky it is. 251 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,934 In fact, having done matrimonials for a long time, 252 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,433 what I've come to realize is the more volatile, 253 00:11:58,500 --> 00:12:00,867 the more distress in a relationship, 254 00:12:00,934 --> 00:12:03,467 the more you're enmeshed with one another. 255 00:12:03,533 --> 00:12:05,934 The people who are indifferent to one another, 256 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:07,567 you could divorce them in a heartbeat. 257 00:12:07,633 --> 00:12:09,533 You could separate people like that in a heartbeat. 258 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,300 Because even though it's negative energy, 259 00:12:12,367 --> 00:12:14,200 it's keeping you both here. 260 00:12:14,266 --> 00:12:19,000 You went out of your way to take care of this dog, it seems, 261 00:12:19,066 --> 00:12:22,600 in a way that she was not necessarily on the same page with. 262 00:12:22,667 --> 00:12:26,066 Whether you were right or not is a whole separate issue. 263 00:12:26,133 --> 00:12:28,834 Now, there's sometimes there are things in the law that we look to, 264 00:12:28,900 --> 00:12:30,800 it's like an emergency exception. 265 00:12:30,867 --> 00:12:33,066 So, if the dog were in dire straits, 266 00:12:33,133 --> 00:12:35,633 and if the dog were bleeding and had open wounds-- 267 00:12:35,700 --> 00:12:37,400 And dogs walk, they're walking on the street. 268 00:12:37,467 --> 00:12:40,500 So, when they have open wounds and cuts and things, 269 00:12:40,567 --> 00:12:44,433 they're more likely to get some kind of secondary or subsequent infection, 270 00:12:44,500 --> 00:12:46,600 which could really be harmful. 271 00:12:46,667 --> 00:12:49,834 You, I think feeling like an expert in this area, 272 00:12:49,900 --> 00:12:52,567 would you agree, more so than the defendant? 273 00:12:52,633 --> 00:12:53,834 -Yeah. -Because dog-sit... 274 00:12:53,900 --> 00:12:55,767 -[DiMango] So, you kind of feel-- -I was vet tech, yeah. 275 00:12:55,834 --> 00:12:58,400 And you on the other hand feel like, all right, maybe this could wait. 276 00:12:58,467 --> 00:13:01,066 I don't have the money to give you now, I have other priorities. 277 00:13:01,133 --> 00:13:04,166 I said I was going to take it myself on Tuesday. 278 00:13:04,233 --> 00:13:06,934 I have the text messages saying, "I asked you not to bring him. 279 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:09,567 I told you not to. I told you I would do it myself." 280 00:13:09,633 --> 00:13:14,033 So, what we need to really decide is, when you did lay out this money, 281 00:13:14,100 --> 00:13:17,700 did you have a reasonable expectation that she would be willing to repay you? 282 00:13:17,767 --> 00:13:18,767 Yes. 283 00:13:18,834 --> 00:13:20,533 And you say you were willing to repay her. 284 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,066 Absolutely. I would never have somebody pay 285 00:13:23,133 --> 00:13:26,033 for my dog or anything of mine and not pay you back. 286 00:13:26,100 --> 00:13:27,500 I never said I would not-- 287 00:13:27,567 --> 00:13:30,433 That went when she held your clothing hostage. 288 00:13:30,500 --> 00:13:32,233 Went out the door. Yes. 289 00:13:32,300 --> 00:13:35,066 'Cause when she was holding all of my stuff, all because she's mad 290 00:13:35,133 --> 00:13:38,333 'cause I don't wanna be with her anymore. I don't think that's right. 291 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,367 So, you were living together at the time, is that correct? 292 00:13:40,433 --> 00:13:42,967 About to be, but yeah, I was staying with her a lot. 293 00:13:43,033 --> 00:13:44,633 -[DiMango] So, you had a lot of-- -This is why I brought my witness. 294 00:13:44,700 --> 00:13:46,333 He knows everything. He saw everything. 295 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:48,000 Do you wanna step up sir, please? 296 00:13:48,066 --> 00:13:50,333 -And what is your name? -My name is Keith. 297 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:52,633 Keith, what is it that you can add to this? 298 00:13:52,700 --> 00:13:56,734 I have been friends with Emily basically my entire life. 299 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,900 My parents and her parents were family friends at a young age. 300 00:13:59,967 --> 00:14:00,967 -So I've known her very well. -Okay. 301 00:14:01,033 --> 00:14:02,633 When she broke up with her last girlfriend-- 302 00:14:02,700 --> 00:14:03,967 That could hurt and help. So... 303 00:14:04,033 --> 00:14:07,000 I had witnessed while Emily was staying with me 304 00:14:07,066 --> 00:14:08,867 of her texting back and forth with Courtnee, 305 00:14:08,934 --> 00:14:11,233 of Courtnee would like to take the dog to the vet, 306 00:14:11,300 --> 00:14:12,633 that she was concerned. 307 00:14:12,700 --> 00:14:15,467 And then Emily had said multiple times 308 00:14:15,533 --> 00:14:18,700 that I don't need this done or I could do this. 309 00:14:18,767 --> 00:14:19,633 Did you read those texts? 310 00:14:19,700 --> 00:14:21,967 How did you become knowledgeable about them? 311 00:14:22,033 --> 00:14:23,667 Yeah, she had showed me the text messages. 312 00:14:23,734 --> 00:14:25,834 [DiMango] So you were looking at them, and you yourself read them? 313 00:14:25,900 --> 00:14:27,200 -Yeah. -[DiMango] So, how did it end? 314 00:14:27,266 --> 00:14:30,367 It ended with Emily saying that, "I would pay for it 315 00:14:30,433 --> 00:14:33,834 because that is what's right. This is my dog and it's not your problem. 316 00:14:33,900 --> 00:14:35,800 -And so I should be able to pay for it." -[DiMango] Okay. 317 00:14:35,867 --> 00:14:38,100 And then once Courtnee did all the other things, yeah. 318 00:14:38,165 --> 00:14:39,600 That's very helpful. Thank you very much. 319 00:14:39,667 --> 00:14:41,934 And you may be seated at this time, Mr. Thomas. 320 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,734 Now, are you here on behalf of the plaintiff to offer anything 321 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,834 that supports her position or refutes the defendant's position? 322 00:14:48,900 --> 00:14:50,400 -I was there. Uh, Courtnee-- -[DiMango] You can step up. 323 00:14:50,467 --> 00:14:51,333 Yeah. 324 00:14:51,834 --> 00:14:53,467 -[DiMango] Your name, please? -Julianna Osuch. 325 00:14:53,533 --> 00:14:57,233 [DiMango] Ms. Osuch, were you present while Courtnee was texting? 326 00:14:57,300 --> 00:14:58,800 Um, yeah. Me and Courtnee hang out all the time. 327 00:14:58,867 --> 00:15:00,166 -We're best friends. -I didn't ask you that. 328 00:15:00,233 --> 00:15:03,400 Were you there when she was texting back and forth about this? 329 00:15:03,467 --> 00:15:04,333 Yes. 330 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:06,367 And what did you read in those text messages? 331 00:15:06,433 --> 00:15:09,567 Because we have them, so you're gonna know that Emily said, 332 00:15:09,633 --> 00:15:11,266 "I know I can pay you for them." 333 00:15:11,333 --> 00:15:14,066 And then precipitously, you took the clothes. 334 00:15:14,133 --> 00:15:16,033 Were you there when the clothes were in the apartment? 335 00:15:16,100 --> 00:15:17,166 Uh, no, I was not, Your Honor. 336 00:15:17,233 --> 00:15:19,400 Okay, you can have a seat. So, let me go back to you. 337 00:15:19,467 --> 00:15:21,000 What clothing was in the apartment? 338 00:15:21,066 --> 00:15:23,600 Two pairs of shoes and some of her clothes. 339 00:15:23,667 --> 00:15:26,333 I had her daughter's birth certificate as well. 340 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:27,400 I did have that. 341 00:15:27,467 --> 00:15:30,333 -And you were holding onto that? -That was in the bag, yes. 342 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:31,633 You really wanted to see her. 343 00:15:31,700 --> 00:15:33,200 See, that's what I'm really thinking here. 344 00:15:33,266 --> 00:15:34,667 She asked me multiple times to talk to her. 345 00:15:34,734 --> 00:15:35,734 Hang on. Time up. 346 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:37,165 -Sorry. -You were not holding that property 347 00:15:37,233 --> 00:15:38,600 so much 'cause you wanted money. 348 00:15:38,667 --> 00:15:41,700 You really wanted to see her again, because you didn't want this thing over. 349 00:15:41,767 --> 00:15:43,500 And this is really what this is all about. 350 00:15:43,567 --> 00:15:45,333 [dramatic music plays] 351 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,734 [announcer] Coming up on Tribunal Justice. 352 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,200 You know there's something called self-help, that you were retaining. 353 00:15:51,266 --> 00:15:53,000 You say you're retaining these items, right? 354 00:15:53,066 --> 00:15:54,533 Because you wanted to get paid? 355 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:56,700 You were trying to help yourself. Not to say the money wasn't owed. 356 00:15:56,767 --> 00:16:00,066 I actually believe Ms. Hafner when she says she was prepared to pay you. 357 00:16:00,133 --> 00:16:02,233 She absolutely was. She was. 358 00:16:02,300 --> 00:16:04,367 [dramatic music plays] 359 00:16:07,533 --> 00:16:11,567 [dramatic music plays] 360 00:16:11,633 --> 00:16:14,400 Now whether or not you're entitled to the money is a separate issue. 361 00:16:14,467 --> 00:16:18,233 But this unfolded in this way that it shouldn't have, 362 00:16:18,300 --> 00:16:19,700 because you can't let go. 363 00:16:19,767 --> 00:16:21,133 -Judge Levy. -Thank You. 364 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:25,000 So, Ms. Hafner, I just wanna make sure that I understand your position. 365 00:16:25,066 --> 00:16:28,433 Because despite and notwithstanding what happened earlier, 366 00:16:28,500 --> 00:16:31,800 your position is that the dog, by the way, her name is? 367 00:16:31,867 --> 00:16:32,700 His name is Koa. 368 00:16:32,767 --> 00:16:34,333 -[Levy] Yeah, I-I'm sorry, his name. -It's okay. 369 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:36,567 -[Levy] And you love Koa? -With all my heart. 370 00:16:36,633 --> 00:16:38,934 And you would never want something bad to happen to Koa? 371 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,433 -[Hafner] Absolutely not. -And if something was wrong with Koa 372 00:16:41,500 --> 00:16:43,400 that required him to see a vet, 373 00:16:43,467 --> 00:16:45,834 you would move heaven and earth to make that happen. 374 00:16:45,900 --> 00:16:46,900 Yes. 375 00:16:46,967 --> 00:16:48,800 You're prepared to pay for whatever it is that you have to pay for, for your dog. 376 00:16:48,867 --> 00:16:50,734 Right. But I didn't get paid until Tuesday, 377 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:52,900 so that's exactly why I had to wait till that day. 378 00:16:52,967 --> 00:16:55,033 I get that. And your witness, Mr. Thomas-- 379 00:16:55,100 --> 00:16:57,667 I believe in your statement, sir, you said the same thing. 380 00:16:57,734 --> 00:17:00,734 "That I heard Emily say she wanted to wait until payday." 381 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:02,600 -We're all on the same page. -Yes. 382 00:17:02,667 --> 00:17:05,133 So, Ms. Hefner, hypothetically speaking, 383 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:09,700 if you did wait until your payday and you took Koa to the same vet 384 00:17:09,767 --> 00:17:14,032 and that vet charged $309 to examine 385 00:17:14,099 --> 00:17:17,532 uh, his ears and his paws. Uh, might have had hot spots. 386 00:17:17,599 --> 00:17:19,567 I'm familiar with those with my own dogs. 387 00:17:19,633 --> 00:17:21,066 You would've paid for that without a problem. 388 00:17:21,133 --> 00:17:22,567 -Absolutely. -I get that. 389 00:17:22,633 --> 00:17:26,200 And Ms. DeSantis, do you kinda understand why things went south here? 390 00:17:26,266 --> 00:17:27,467 No, I do get It. 391 00:17:27,532 --> 00:17:29,333 I would like you to explain to me 392 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,166 your understanding as to why things went south. 393 00:17:32,233 --> 00:17:36,033 I tried a couple of times to say, let's not take it to court. 394 00:17:36,100 --> 00:17:37,133 Let's do it civilly. 395 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,100 This is kind of what I'm hoping to hear from you, 396 00:17:40,166 --> 00:17:44,400 that, "Had I not taken and retained 397 00:17:44,467 --> 00:17:47,900 Ms. Hafner's property, she would've paid me back." 398 00:17:47,967 --> 00:17:49,200 Do you believe that to be true? 399 00:17:49,266 --> 00:17:52,567 I'm really not sure because after the breakup, she was really nasty. 400 00:17:52,633 --> 00:17:54,834 Like the text messages that I've shown, I mean... 401 00:17:54,900 --> 00:17:56,667 Putting aside whether or not you're sure. 402 00:17:56,734 --> 00:17:59,667 I'm not interested if you're sure she would've done it. 403 00:17:59,734 --> 00:18:03,834 But do you think that had you not, not only kept her clothing, 404 00:18:03,900 --> 00:18:07,367 but also the birth certificate of her daughter 405 00:18:07,433 --> 00:18:12,333 and the other personal property, that she would've abided by and honored 406 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,400 what she was texting you, which was, "I'll pay you, 407 00:18:15,467 --> 00:18:17,367 just give me back my things." 408 00:18:17,433 --> 00:18:19,767 -I said that. -No I don't. 409 00:18:19,834 --> 00:18:22,100 So, Ms. DeSantis, that's part of the problem. 410 00:18:22,166 --> 00:18:25,734 You know there's something called self-help, that you were retaining. 411 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:27,567 You say you're retaining these items, right? 412 00:18:27,633 --> 00:18:29,567 Because you wanted to get paid. You were trying to help yourself. 413 00:18:29,633 --> 00:18:30,867 Not to say the money wasn't owed. 414 00:18:30,934 --> 00:18:33,867 I actually believe Ms. Hafner when she says she was prepared to pay you. 415 00:18:33,934 --> 00:18:35,300 She absolutely was. 416 00:18:35,367 --> 00:18:38,467 'Cause there's no doubt in my mind that had you simply given back your stuff, 417 00:18:38,533 --> 00:18:39,633 she would've paid you. 418 00:18:39,700 --> 00:18:40,567 But for whatever reason, 419 00:18:40,633 --> 00:18:42,400 whether it's 'cause you didn't want the relationship to end, 420 00:18:42,467 --> 00:18:45,233 whether you were angry, whatever the reason was. 421 00:18:45,300 --> 00:18:47,734 I can tell you, and I've been doing this a long time, 422 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:51,433 and I too have handled matrimonials for over a decade, 423 00:18:51,500 --> 00:18:55,433 that there's usually something else going on in the undercurrent 424 00:18:55,500 --> 00:18:59,367 between one or two parties that makes things difficult, just like here. 425 00:18:59,433 --> 00:19:04,166 If you can't understand how that dynamic got you to right where you are, 426 00:19:04,233 --> 00:19:06,934 then you gotta just look inside yourself. 427 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:08,000 That's all. That's all I gotta say. 428 00:19:08,066 --> 00:19:09,667 It doesn't mean that you're gonna win, doesn't mean you're gonna lose. 429 00:19:09,734 --> 00:19:11,467 Doesn't mean you're gonna win, doesn't mean you're gonna lose. 430 00:19:11,533 --> 00:19:12,900 But that's really what's going on here. 431 00:19:12,967 --> 00:19:14,367 I have nothing further. 432 00:19:14,433 --> 00:19:17,100 So we're gonna retire to deliberate at this time. Thank you all. 433 00:19:17,166 --> 00:19:20,600 Court now stands in recess. Parties are excused. 434 00:19:23,433 --> 00:19:28,533 So, you nailed it so hard when you said this is not about the dog. 435 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:29,767 This isn't about anything. 436 00:19:29,834 --> 00:19:32,233 The plaintiff wanted to stay engaged with her. 437 00:19:32,300 --> 00:19:34,266 She wanted to continue contacting her. 438 00:19:34,333 --> 00:19:36,033 She was upset that the defendant 439 00:19:36,100 --> 00:19:38,467 wouldn't respond to her, speak to her on the phone. 440 00:19:38,533 --> 00:19:41,633 So I do think that there was some spite at issue in this case, 441 00:19:41,700 --> 00:19:44,433 but I don't think that it impacts the underlying debt. 442 00:19:44,500 --> 00:19:46,700 I think the defendant owes her the money and knows. 443 00:19:46,767 --> 00:19:47,967 I think she would've paid her back-- 444 00:19:48,033 --> 00:19:51,700 Adam, as you pointed out-- had the plaintiff not withheld her stuff 445 00:19:52,266 --> 00:19:54,400 and I think been a little unpleasant. 446 00:19:54,467 --> 00:19:56,467 But I don't think it offsets the debt. 447 00:19:56,533 --> 00:19:59,533 I agree. I think that she should pay her for the vet bill. 448 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:01,166 I think she wants to pay her for the vet bill. 449 00:20:01,233 --> 00:20:03,000 I think that it got a little bit out of hand, 450 00:20:03,066 --> 00:20:04,567 and it was a tit-for-tat kind of thing. 451 00:20:04,633 --> 00:20:06,600 I don't see any evidence of the loans. 452 00:20:06,667 --> 00:20:09,633 I don't see any, any direct evidence. I mean, I see money withdrawn. 453 00:20:09,700 --> 00:20:10,834 I don't see anything else. 454 00:20:10,900 --> 00:20:14,400 Not that she's not credible, but she didn't even really, I don't know. 455 00:20:14,467 --> 00:20:17,767 I just don't see that she met her burden with regard to the $103. 456 00:20:17,834 --> 00:20:21,033 So, I am prepared to say she's entitled to the money back. 457 00:20:21,100 --> 00:20:22,000 Yeah, I agree. 458 00:20:22,066 --> 00:20:25,000 Defendant said that she was prepared to pay, she would've paid 306, 459 00:20:25,066 --> 00:20:26,767 and uh, that's what I would agree with. 460 00:20:26,834 --> 00:20:28,333 -Okay. -So we're unanimous? 461 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:29,400 -Yes, we are. -Great. 462 00:20:29,467 --> 00:20:33,100 [dramatic music plays] 463 00:20:33,166 --> 00:20:34,166 Court is back in session. 464 00:20:34,233 --> 00:20:36,066 Parties are reminded, you're still under oath. 465 00:20:36,133 --> 00:20:38,633 -Thank you, Byrd. -You're welcome, Judge. 466 00:20:38,700 --> 00:20:41,266 And thank you, Ms. DeSantis and Ms. Hefner. 467 00:20:41,333 --> 00:20:43,867 -Aren't you glad you came back? -Absolutely. Yeah. 468 00:20:43,934 --> 00:20:46,300 You know, I'm gonna say this to you, 469 00:20:46,367 --> 00:20:49,533 I think that when you are involved in litigation, 470 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,834 regardless of whether or not you are on that side or that side, 471 00:20:52,900 --> 00:20:55,633 and someone's asking you questions, it's tough. 472 00:20:55,700 --> 00:20:57,900 And especially if the situation 473 00:20:57,967 --> 00:21:01,033 that preceded it is one that makes you angry, 474 00:21:01,100 --> 00:21:04,233 the whole thing can just really put you on edge. 475 00:21:04,300 --> 00:21:08,066 And my caution to you is that, be careful of when that happens 476 00:21:08,133 --> 00:21:13,600 because people will use your temper against you, even if it's legitimate. 477 00:21:13,667 --> 00:21:17,000 Even if what you're mad about is warranted, they'll use it against you. 478 00:21:17,066 --> 00:21:19,300 -Be careful about that. -Thank you. I appreciate it. 479 00:21:19,367 --> 00:21:22,133 Ms. DeSantis, you mostly made a good case. 480 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,667 We are dismissing that part of your complaint 481 00:21:24,734 --> 00:21:27,567 that pertains to the miscellaneous loans, 482 00:21:27,633 --> 00:21:29,867 because there was money going back and forth. 483 00:21:29,934 --> 00:21:32,300 She paid for some things. You paid for some things. 484 00:21:32,367 --> 00:21:35,300 So, we're dismissing that miscellaneous $103. 485 00:21:35,367 --> 00:21:38,800 We are gonna order the defendant to reimburse you for the $306 486 00:21:38,867 --> 00:21:40,133 for the vet bill. 487 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:41,467 She said she was gonna do that. 488 00:21:41,533 --> 00:21:46,200 It is our unanimous belief that not only are you legally entitled to that, 489 00:21:46,266 --> 00:21:49,600 but she would've done it before had there not been so much, 490 00:21:49,667 --> 00:21:52,834 "I'm gonna hold your clothes and your daughter's birth certificate, 491 00:21:52,900 --> 00:21:54,967 and I need you to call me back right now. 492 00:21:55,033 --> 00:21:56,433 I wanna talk to you." 493 00:21:56,500 --> 00:21:58,600 We're gonna order her to pay you the money. 494 00:21:58,667 --> 00:22:01,166 We're gonna dismiss the balance of your complaint. 495 00:22:01,233 --> 00:22:02,367 We wish you both the best, 496 00:22:02,433 --> 00:22:04,166 and thank you for hanging in there for your defense. 497 00:22:04,233 --> 00:22:05,300 That's our judgment. 498 00:22:05,367 --> 00:22:06,900 -[Hafner] Thank you. -Don't get back together. 499 00:22:06,967 --> 00:22:08,767 I'm not, trust and believe that. 500 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:11,433 [Byrd] Can I finish here? 501 00:22:11,500 --> 00:22:15,300 This case is concluded. Parties are excused. You may step out. 502 00:22:15,367 --> 00:22:16,800 [laughter] 503 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:19,900 I think that it was fair. 504 00:22:19,967 --> 00:22:21,533 My emotions got the best of me. 505 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,433 That was a great decision. I would've paid her back the money anyway. 506 00:22:24,500 --> 00:22:26,800 I can admit I shouldn't have held her clothes, but I did. 507 00:22:26,867 --> 00:22:30,033 Because she's an obsessive, crazy girl and she just wanted to do anything 508 00:22:30,100 --> 00:22:34,100 and anything to talk to me or to get me upset in any kind of way. 509 00:22:34,166 --> 00:22:35,900 She had something of mine, which was my money. 510 00:22:35,967 --> 00:22:38,633 I had something of hers, but I did, I have proof. 511 00:22:38,700 --> 00:22:42,300 I gave her her stuff back, then I filed for court two days later. 512 00:22:42,367 --> 00:22:44,233 Nothing, not a thing. 513 00:22:44,300 --> 00:22:48,000 I know I took her dog and helped her get her daughter's birth certificate 514 00:22:48,066 --> 00:22:50,133 out of the kindness of my heart. And I'm a good person. 515 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:51,433 Time to move on. 516 00:22:51,500 --> 00:22:55,033 I will not be lending anyone money, so please don't ask me. 517 00:22:55,667 --> 00:22:57,600 [announcer] Did someone destroy your property? 518 00:22:57,667 --> 00:23:01,066 Let Tribunal Justice decide your case. 519 00:23:01,133 --> 00:23:03,967 Find us on social media @Tribunal Justice. 520 00:23:04,033 --> 00:23:06,967 [end theme music plays]