-[Acker] You loaned her this money? -Yes.
-Is that true? -Let's just get this over with.
You should simmer down on the attitude.
I'm done.
That's why we broke up.
You're probably like, I win, right?
Not exactly.
[announcer] Today on Tribunal Justice.
[opening theme music plays]
This case was filed in Toms River, New Jersey.
Yes, this is case number 1027 on the calendar
in the matter of DeSantis versus Hafner.
Parties have been sworn in. You may be seated.
-Thank you, Byrd. -You're welcome, Judge.
-Ms. DeSantis, the defendant is your ex. -[DeSantis] Yes.
When you were dating, you allege in your complaint
that you made various loans to her for different things.
-Yes. -One of those things was a vet bill.
She had a pitbull beagle mix that needed some treatment.
You paid for that. You expected her to pay you back.
You allege that she did not,
so you're now suing her for $409,
which includes the vet bill and some other miscellaneous items.
Ms. Hafner, you say that this lawsuit
is about nothing more than the plaintiff's spite.
She did give you the money in order to pay for the vet bill.
She said don't worry about it. Pay me back when you can.
You ended the relationship shortly thereafter,
and then she started hounding you for this money.
-Yes. -And you refuse to pay her a dime.
I never said I wouldn't pay her a dime. I just--
You said that in your answer. Are you changing your mind?
I never said... I didn't say that. I said I would pay her.
Can I see the complaint?
I just wanna make sure we stay on the same page.
Thank you, Byrd.
Byrd, can you show that to the defendant, please?
Sure.
I'm showing you a signed copy of your answer.
-Is that your signature at the bottom? -Yes.
Can you read the last sentence before your signature?
"I refuse to pay her a dime," but you don't let me explain why.
No, no, no. Just so we're clear, I didn't write it.
That's the complaint that was given to me.
-Yeah. Okay. -That you swore out and that you signed.
So, I'm now moving on. You can change your testimony.
-Okay. -But what you're not gonna do
-is say that words don't exist. -Yeah, that's fine.
-Please don't talk when I'm talking. -All right. All right.
Thank you.
There are two bundles of money, Ms. DeSantis, that you're suing for.
-[DeSantis] Yes. -The vet bill was $309, is that right?
-Yes. -I didn't see any evidence pertaining
to these other loans.
And part of the defendant's claim is that you two were in a relationship.
-Mm-hmm. -So she paid for some stuff.
-You paid for some stuff. -[DeSantis] Yes.
I wanna deal with the vet bill separately.
But what's the evidence of these other debts?
On page one, there's the ATM withdrawals...
-...um, that I took out for her. -How could you say that's for me?
-Don't talk when she's talking. -For her ex-girlfriend...
she needed money to--
Well, wait, you're showing me your exhibit one,
and I see ATM, the bank name, the withdrawal name.
-You took out the withdrawal... -[DeSantis] Yes.
For $70, and then another withdrawal the next day for a hundred dollars.
I don't know where that money went to whom it was directed or what it was for.
So, is it your testimony that I'm supposed to look at these totally generic
ATM receipts and say that this is a debt that she owes?
I mean, I get where you're coming from, but I did-
-[Acker] I'm glad. -I did give her the money.
When? I see two blank receipts.
All that tells me is that you pulled money out of the bank.
So, what did you do with that $170?
Direct your attention up here, please.
I took out the 170 and she paid me 180.
What was that 170 for?
She needed to pay money to her ex-girlfriend
in order to see her daughter.
So, Ms. Hafner, this $170 that the plaintiff's testified about,
do you acknowledge receiving that money on or around the 19th or 20th of August?
Mmm... I guess.
You should simmer down on the attitude because you don't have much to prove.
-Okay, I mean I can do what I want, but-- -It's her burden of proof.
You can do what you want. Is that what you just said?
I would walk out right now. Thank you for the vacation.
There's no chain gang here. You're being dealt with respectfully.
-I know, but I'm-- okay. -So stop talking now.
-Okay, no problem. -Good. You're done now.
-Okay. -Now we're gonna go back to you...
because, her abominable attitude notwithstanding, I don't understand.
-She does have a burden of proof. -[Byrd] You're going the wrong way.
-Okay, well... -That's why we broke up.
-[Byrd] What do you want? -[spectators tittering]
Ms. DeSantis, you're probably like, I win, right?
Not exactly. Not exactly.
That outburst tells us a lot about her character,
but it doesn't necessarily prove your case.
Now, let's look at a picture of this cute puppy.
And I understand that the defendant's dog was in the custody of an ex-girlfriend.
-Yes. -[Acker] She got the dog back.
-Mm-hmm. -[Acker] And the dog was in bad shape.
-Yes. -[Acker] Did you see the dog?
Yeah, so I actually picked her and the dog up the day she got the dog back.
And we brought him to my house and gave him a bath because he was so filthy.
You're in the animal business, aren't you?
Yeah, I've my own pet-sitting business.
So, I looked at the evidence in this case, and here's what was clear to me.
You did offer to pay the money, and she did at some point say,
"I can't take care of this now. I may have to handle my dog's needs later."
-Mm-hmm. -So, explain to us why it was a loan.
Did you know that she was gonna pay you back,
or were you just hoping she was gonna pay you back?
Well, we've known each other for a while, and then when we started dating,
like, we would, you know, treat each other and help each other out.
And I knew she was struggling a little bit with money.
So, when I saw the dog, he had open wounds on his paws,
and they were actively bleeding the day that I decided to take him.
She doesn't have her license,
so it would've been on me to get her and the dog that next week.
But it wasn't on you to pay?
-Like, you didn't have to pay. -[DeSantis] No.
-And you knew she was having a hard time. -Yeah.
And you knew she was having a hard time financially in particular, yes?
So, what made you think you were gonna get this money back?
-Just hopeful, I guess. -Just hopeful.
I thought, you know, that her being my girlfriend, that,
you know, she said she would pay me back,
so I was just believing her that she would pay me back.
She did say she was gonna pay you back?
There's proof, yes.
When did she say she was going to pay you back?
She said she'd pay me back by September 6th.
What happened on September 6th?
-You weren't paid back, I assume? -No, I wasn't paid anything.
Now the defendant said that her papers, that she broke up with you
the day after you loaned her this money to pay for the dog.
Is that true?
Well, her dog attacked a dog.
We were supposed to move in together, and I have my own.
So, I knew after all the problems that we were having
that it wasn't gonna work out, so I ended it, but she--
I ask you that because that's a big part of her defense.
"I borrowed the money. I was supposed to be able to pay it back on my own time.
And she got really mad because I broke up with her precipitously.
I broke up with her so quickly, and now she's suing me out of spite."
That's not true.
Okay, well now since the defendant's rejoined us--
Let's just get this over with.
I won't disrespect you, but you certainly will not disrespect me.
Absolutely, I don't wanna disrespect you.
And I will conduct my examination as I choose, so please don't interrupt me.
Absolutely. No problem.
[announcer] Coming up on Tribunal Justice.
You really wanted to see her.
See, that's what I'm really thinking here.
-She asked multiple times to talk to her. -Hang on. Time up.
-Sorry. -You were not holding that property
so much 'cause you wanted money.
You really wanted to see her again because you didn't want this thing over.
And this is really what this is all about.
[dramatic music plays]
[announcer] Courtnee DeSantis is suing her ex-girlfriend Emily Hafner
for unpaid loans and vet bills.
Emily claims Courtnee is reacting out of spite for breaking up with her
and owes her nothing.
-You good now? -Perfect.
What the plaintiff has suggested is that your defense,
which is that she's suing you out of spite, is untrue.
And what I was examining with her while you were gone
was your claim that you broke up with her the day after she received this money.
-Is that true? -Can I speak my story?
No, you can answer my questions.
I don't think the day after. No.
[Acker] When did you break up with her?
I don't know the specific date. We were never dating.
We were never in a relationship.
I'm gonna read your answer again because she said she's only suing
because I broke up with her.
Broke off what we had going on.
She was never, I never once called her my girlfriend.
-Never like that. -That doesn't matter.
-That's not what I'm asking you. -Okay.
So, is it your position that you don't owe her this money?
I do, and I never said I didn't.
She held my property at her house.
-What property? -All of my clothes, my bags of clothes.
I have the text messages.
When did she do that?
We planned on moving in together, and I had all of my stuff at her house.
Literally bags and bags of clothes. We were not on good terms at all.
So, it wasn't just randomly breaking up with her because she did this.
And I told her, I have the money in my pocket, I can pay her back.
I have no problem with that.
She already threatened me with court.
So, I was like fine, let's see what the judge has to say.
And I'm not paying you back anything until you give me my property back.
[Acker] Does she still have any of your property?
She dropped it off after she filed.
When did you file this case, Ms. DeSantis?
-I don't know the exact date. -You know approximately when.
-Just give me a month. Give me a week. -September.
Because I did see a text message in your evidence.
-Mm-hmm. -That actually cuts both ways.
Because in that text message the defendant admits that she owes you the money,
but she also makes an allegation at that time.
This isn't something that she came up with today in court.
She made an allegation at that time
that you were improperly withholding her property.
So, I wanna talk to you about that, because I don't believe in self-help.
Yeah.
If you decide you're gonna take the law into your own hands,
then I might wash my hands of the situation.
Were you retaining her property?
-I was for a little bit. -How much of her property did you retain?
-What did you retain? -I had two bags of clothes.
-When did you give it back? -September 6th.
-Tell me what the plaintiff withheld. -Probably like all of my clothes.
He's my witness. He was there through everything.
All of my clothes, my daughter's birth certificate, my shoes.
-My hats, everything. -Because you were really mad.
This is why I don't want you leave, 'cause see,
she does have the burden of proof.
You don't have to do anything.
You've gotta prove that it was not spite
'cause here are the two things that concerned me.
The text where you were withholding her items
and the other text message where you said,
"I don't care how much money it costs me, I'm gonna get you."
And I'm paraphrasing.
On September 6th, I said, "I'll be over in 20 minutes with your stuff."
And she said, "Word. Thank you."
So, I did drop off the rest of her stuff on September 6th.
After you withheld it improperly.
-Yes. -[Acker] Judge.
You know it's just been a, a very rocky, volatile type of relationship,
no matter how you wanna define it.
Often that's the first sign that there's a problem in a relationship
because you both don't see the relationship in the same way.
So, you're expecting different things from one another.
Can I just say one thing as well?
Like I blocked her number after she did file,
and she texted me off multiple different numbers.
Her work phone, a TextNow number.
Just obsessive behavior, and I don't like that.
Okay, that's a point because what happens is,
not everybody wants the relationship to end
regardless of how bumpy and shaky it is.
In fact, having done matrimonials for a long time,
what I've come to realize is the more volatile,
the more distress in a relationship,
the more you're enmeshed with one another.
The people who are indifferent to one another,
you could divorce them in a heartbeat.
You could separate people like that in a heartbeat.
Because even though it's negative energy,
it's keeping you both here.
You went out of your way to take care of this dog, it seems,
in a way that she was not necessarily on the same page with.
Whether you were right or not is a whole separate issue.
Now, there's sometimes there are things in the law that we look to,
it's like an emergency exception.
So, if the dog were in dire straits,
and if the dog were bleeding and had open wounds--
And dogs walk, they're walking on the street.
So, when they have open wounds and cuts and things,
they're more likely to get some kind of secondary or subsequent infection,
which could really be harmful.
You, I think feeling like an expert in this area,
would you agree, more so than the defendant?
-Yeah. -Because dog-sit...
-[DiMango] So, you kind of feel-- -I was vet tech, yeah.
And you on the other hand feel like, all right, maybe this could wait.
I don't have the money to give you now, I have other priorities.
I said I was going to take it myself on Tuesday.
I have the text messages saying, "I asked you not to bring him.
I told you not to. I told you I would do it myself."
So, what we need to really decide is, when you did lay out this money,
did you have a reasonable expectation that she would be willing to repay you?
Yes.
And you say you were willing to repay her.
Absolutely. I would never have somebody pay
for my dog or anything of mine and not pay you back.
I never said I would not--
That went when she held your clothing hostage.
Went out the door. Yes.
'Cause when she was holding all of my stuff, all because she's mad
'cause I don't wanna be with her anymore. I don't think that's right.
So, you were living together at the time, is that correct?
About to be, but yeah, I was staying with her a lot.
-[DiMango] So, you had a lot of-- -This is why I brought my witness.
He knows everything. He saw everything.
Do you wanna step up sir, please?
-And what is your name? -My name is Keith.
Keith, what is it that you can add to this?
I have been friends with Emily basically my entire life.
My parents and her parents were family friends at a young age.
-So I've known her very well. -Okay.
When she broke up with her last girlfriend--
That could hurt and help. So...
I had witnessed while Emily was staying with me
of her texting back and forth with Courtnee,
of Courtnee would like to take the dog to the vet,
that she was concerned.
And then Emily had said multiple times
that I don't need this done or I could do this.
Did you read those texts?
How did you become knowledgeable about them?
Yeah, she had showed me the text messages.
[DiMango] So you were looking at them, and you yourself read them?
-Yeah. -[DiMango] So, how did it end?
It ended with Emily saying that, "I would pay for it
because that is what's right. This is my dog and it's not your problem.
-And so I should be able to pay for it." -[DiMango] Okay.
And then once Courtnee did all the other things, yeah.
That's very helpful. Thank you very much.
And you may be seated at this time, Mr. Thomas.
Now, are you here on behalf of the plaintiff to offer anything
that supports her position or refutes the defendant's position?
-I was there. Uh, Courtnee-- -[DiMango] You can step up.
Yeah.
-[DiMango] Your name, please? -Julianna Osuch.
[DiMango] Ms. Osuch, were you present while Courtnee was texting?
Um, yeah. Me and Courtnee hang out all the time.
-We're best friends. -I didn't ask you that.
Were you there when she was texting back and forth about this?
Yes.
And what did you read in those text messages?
Because we have them, so you're gonna know that Emily said,
"I know I can pay you for them."
And then precipitously, you took the clothes.
Were you there when the clothes were in the apartment?
Uh, no, I was not, Your Honor.
Okay, you can have a seat. So, let me go back to you.
What clothing was in the apartment?
Two pairs of shoes and some of her clothes.
I had her daughter's birth certificate as well.
I did have that.
-And you were holding onto that? -That was in the bag, yes.
You really wanted to see her.
See, that's what I'm really thinking here.
She asked me multiple times to talk to her.
Hang on. Time up.
-Sorry. -You were not holding that property
so much 'cause you wanted money.
You really wanted to see her again, because you didn't want this thing over.
And this is really what this is all about.
[dramatic music plays]
[announcer] Coming up on Tribunal Justice.
You know there's something called self-help, that you were retaining.
You say you're retaining these items, right?
Because you wanted to get paid?
You were trying to help yourself. Not to say the money wasn't owed.
I actually believe Ms. Hafner when she says she was prepared to pay you.
She absolutely was. She was.
[dramatic music plays]
Now whether or not you're entitled to the money is a separate issue.
But this unfolded in this way that it shouldn't have,
because you can't let go.
-Judge Levy. -Thank You.
So, Ms. Hafner, I just wanna make sure that I understand your position.
Because despite and notwithstanding what happened earlier,
your position is that the dog, by the way, her name is?
His name is Koa.
-[Levy] Yeah, I-I'm sorry, his name. -It's okay.
-[Levy] And you love Koa? -With all my heart.
And you would never want something bad to happen to Koa?
-[Hafner] Absolutely not. -And if something was wrong with Koa
that required him to see a vet,
you would move heaven and earth to make that happen.
Yes.
You're prepared to pay for whatever it is that you have to pay for, for your dog.
Right. But I didn't get paid until Tuesday,
so that's exactly why I had to wait till that day.
I get that. And your witness, Mr. Thomas--
I believe in your statement, sir, you said the same thing.
"That I heard Emily say she wanted to wait until payday."
-We're all on the same page. -Yes.
So, Ms. Hefner, hypothetically speaking,
if you did wait until your payday and you took Koa to the same vet
and that vet charged $309 to examine
uh, his ears and his paws. Uh, might have had hot spots.
I'm familiar with those with my own dogs.
You would've paid for that without a problem.
-Absolutely. -I get that.
And Ms. DeSantis, do you kinda understand why things went south here?
No, I do get It.
I would like you to explain to me
your understanding as to why things went south.
I tried a couple of times to say, let's not take it to court.
Let's do it civilly.
This is kind of what I'm hoping to hear from you,
that, "Had I not taken and retained
Ms. Hafner's property, she would've paid me back."
Do you believe that to be true?
I'm really not sure because after the breakup, she was really nasty.
Like the text messages that I've shown, I mean...
Putting aside whether or not you're sure.
I'm not interested if you're sure she would've done it.
But do you think that had you not, not only kept her clothing,
but also the birth certificate of her daughter
and the other personal property, that she would've abided by and honored
what she was texting you, which was, "I'll pay you,
just give me back my things."
-I said that. -No I don't.
So, Ms. DeSantis, that's part of the problem.
You know there's something called self-help, that you were retaining.
You say you're retaining these items, right?
Because you wanted to get paid. You were trying to help yourself.
Not to say the money wasn't owed.
I actually believe Ms. Hafner when she says she was prepared to pay you.
She absolutely was.
'Cause there's no doubt in my mind that had you simply given back your stuff,
she would've paid you.
But for whatever reason,
whether it's 'cause you didn't want the relationship to end,
whether you were angry, whatever the reason was.
I can tell you, and I've been doing this a long time,
and I too have handled matrimonials for over a decade,
that there's usually something else going on in the undercurrent
between one or two parties that makes things difficult, just like here.
If you can't understand how that dynamic got you to right where you are,
then you gotta just look inside yourself.
That's all. That's all I gotta say.
It doesn't mean that you're gonna win, doesn't mean you're gonna lose.
Doesn't mean you're gonna win, doesn't mean you're gonna lose.
But that's really what's going on here.
I have nothing further.
So we're gonna retire to deliberate at this time. Thank you all.
Court now stands in recess. Parties are excused.
So, you nailed it so hard when you said this is not about the dog.
This isn't about anything.
The plaintiff wanted to stay engaged with her.
She wanted to continue contacting her.
She was upset that the defendant
wouldn't respond to her, speak to her on the phone.
So I do think that there was some spite at issue in this case,
but I don't think that it impacts the underlying debt.
I think the defendant owes her the money and knows.
I think she would've paid her back--
Adam, as you pointed out-- had the plaintiff not withheld her stuff
and I think been a little unpleasant.
But I don't think it offsets the debt.
I agree. I think that she should pay her for the vet bill.
I think she wants to pay her for the vet bill.
I think that it got a little bit out of hand,
and it was a tit-for-tat kind of thing.
I don't see any evidence of the loans.
I don't see any, any direct evidence. I mean, I see money withdrawn.
I don't see anything else.
Not that she's not credible, but she didn't even really, I don't know.
I just don't see that she met her burden with regard to the $103.
So, I am prepared to say she's entitled to the money back.
Yeah, I agree.
Defendant said that she was prepared to pay, she would've paid 306,
and uh, that's what I would agree with.
-Okay. -So we're unanimous?
-Yes, we are. -Great.
[dramatic music plays]
Court is back in session.
Parties are reminded, you're still under oath.
-Thank you, Byrd. -You're welcome, Judge.
And thank you, Ms. DeSantis and Ms. Hefner.
-Aren't you glad you came back? -Absolutely. Yeah.
You know, I'm gonna say this to you,
I think that when you are involved in litigation,
regardless of whether or not you are on that side or that side,
and someone's asking you questions, it's tough.
And especially if the situation
that preceded it is one that makes you angry,
the whole thing can just really put you on edge.
And my caution to you is that, be careful of when that happens
because people will use your temper against you, even if it's legitimate.
Even if what you're mad about is warranted, they'll use it against you.
-Be careful about that. -Thank you. I appreciate it.
Ms. DeSantis, you mostly made a good case.
We are dismissing that part of your complaint
that pertains to the miscellaneous loans,
because there was money going back and forth.
She paid for some things. You paid for some things.
So, we're dismissing that miscellaneous $103.
We are gonna order the defendant to reimburse you for the $306
for the vet bill.
She said she was gonna do that.
It is our unanimous belief that not only are you legally entitled to that,
but she would've done it before had there not been so much,
"I'm gonna hold your clothes and your daughter's birth certificate,
and I need you to call me back right now.
I wanna talk to you."
We're gonna order her to pay you the money.
We're gonna dismiss the balance of your complaint.
We wish you both the best,
and thank you for hanging in there for your defense.
That's our judgment.
-[Hafner] Thank you. -Don't get back together.
I'm not, trust and believe that.
[Byrd] Can I finish here?
This case is concluded. Parties are excused. You may step out.
[laughter]
I think that it was fair.
My emotions got the best of me.
That was a great decision. I would've paid her back the money anyway.
I can admit I shouldn't have held her clothes, but I did.
Because she's an obsessive, crazy girl and she just wanted to do anything
and anything to talk to me or to get me upset in any kind of way.
She had something of mine, which was my money.
I had something of hers, but I did, I have proof.
I gave her her stuff back, then I filed for court two days later.
Nothing, not a thing.
I know I took her dog and helped her get her daughter's birth certificate
out of the kindness of my heart. And I'm a good person.
Time to move on.
I will not be lending anyone money, so please don't ask me.
[announcer] Did someone destroy your property?
Let Tribunal Justice decide your case.
Find us on social media @Tribunal Justice.
[end theme music plays]