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Downloaded from
YTS.MX
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Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.MX
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[sighs]
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[crew member] 101. Take four.
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[producer] Thank you.
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[man 1] Recruiting is everything.
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My name is Jose Sanchez.
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Sorry, I'm stopping you
because I work for Abercrombie & Fitch.
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I'm a recruiter. I'm looking for people
to work part-time in a store.
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Nothing crazy. Five, ten, 15 hours a week.
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We hire good-looking people.
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♪ Can we forget about the things I said
When I was drunk? ♪
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♪ I didn't mean to call you that… ♪
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[woman 1] When I was in high school,
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Abercrombie & Fitch
was the hottest retailer.
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[woman 2] It was one of those stores
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that when you're walking around,
you do a walk-through.
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♪ Please tell me why ♪
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♪ My car is in the front yard… ♪
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It was such a pop culture phenomenon.
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[man 2] There was just
this huge explosion.
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If you weren't wearing Abercrombie,
you weren't cool.
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♪ I came in through the window… ♪
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[man 3]
I just remember the pressure to fit in,
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being like,
"I wish I had that Abercrombie thing."
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[woman 4] I don't feel this way now,
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but then it was very cool
to look like everyone else.
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[Sanchez] There was a guy,
blond hair, blue-eyed,
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just shredded
like he was carved out of granite.
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And he wore Abercrombie & Fitch.
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-What it was selling was aspirational.
-Aspirational.
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Aspirational.
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Aspirational.
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♪ My car is in the front yard… ♪
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This, like, perfect image
of an all-American youth.
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[woman 3] I would
walk past Abercrombie like,
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"What is so special about this store?"
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It is so thin and white.
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[woman 5] Fraternity,
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boarding school,
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WASP,
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upper crust,
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preppy with money.
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[man 4] When I wore
the Abercrombie clothes,
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I felt different,
and I thought things might be different.
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[man 5] There's a reason
why people liked that brand.
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It's because exclusion
is part of our society.
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I think the first time
I saw Abercrombie & Fitch,
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a girl was carrying a bag
with a half-naked, pretty hot white guy
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in black and white.
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And I thought, "What is that?"
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[man 6] Abercrombie sold a dream.
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It almost was like your fantasy,
like a young person's fantasy.
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They literally made so much money
marketing clothes
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but advertising them
with no clothes on, so…
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[camera shutter clicking]
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[chuckles] You got used to that.
The more you shoot with Abercrombie,
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the more you're, like,
comfortable with being half naked
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and the clothes you're modeling
not actually being on you.
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[woman 1] When you look back on it
as an adult, it can feel shocking.
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But as a teenager,
you just thought it was cool.
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I saved enough money to buy one top,
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and I wore it as often as I could
without looking weird.
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It said "Abercrombie & Fitch" on the arm.
So it would be like…
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"Look, I'm cool." [laughs]
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At least at my high school,
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there was girls
who would cut out the guys from the bags
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and hang up those pictures
in their locker.
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I liked the posters or the photographs,
and all my books were covered in them.
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The Abercrombie would go on the spine,
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and then the picture
would go on each side.
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[man 7] The clothes were nothing special,
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but it was the label on the clothes
and Abercrombie across your chest
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that was almost like
a badge of distinction.
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[man 4] I associated the brand
with, like, frat boys, rugby players.
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Like, the white guys that played
unconventional sports like lacrosse.
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It's not like other companies
where they have a celebrity,
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like, "I'm gonna be
just like Brad Pitt one day."
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Like, no, you're not.
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But you can be like
the Abercrombie guy one day.
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Very innocent, small town-type people.
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The people that bought the clothes
are the people in the campaign.
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-[interviewer] Where you from?
-PA, baby. Amish County, PA.
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-New York, New York.
-719.
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-Pittsburgh.
-Dallas, Texas.
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Connecticut.
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[man 4] I went to Stanford,
and my freshman year roommate,
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he had the catalogs
with all of the, like, shirtless,
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rugby-playing, rowing Abercrombie dudes,
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and on his dorm closet, he, like,
made a whole collage of these men.
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So I would say there was, like,
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50 little cutouts
of Abercrombie shirtless guys
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just posted on his-- on his dorm closet.
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So obviously it was then that I noticed
that it was, like, a super white thing.
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I grew up in Washington, DC,
and in seventh grade,
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I went to Sidwell Friends High School,
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the high school
where Malia and Sasha Obama went,
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Chelsea Clinton went,
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so this very elite private school
in Upper Northwest Washington, DC.
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I was all into hip-hop and R&B,
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so my designers at that time
were kind of FUBU, Mecca,
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and these urban wear designers
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that had really emerged
in the late '80s and early '90s.
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And I got to Sidwell,
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and I heard of this thing
called Abercrombie & Fitch.
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I didn't know
what was so special about this brand,
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but at Sidwell, it was the thing to have.
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I remember seeing kids who definitely had
more money than I did wearing the clothes
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and just wanting to be
a part of that look.
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♪ Can't you see our generation
Goin' down the tubes… ♪
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The super low-rise jeans,
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showing the midriff,
belly button area was definitely in.
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♪ Remember when we were
Kids hangin' out… ♪
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You know, even, I think,
celebrities were wearing it.
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♪ Well, now the whole damn generation… ♪
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[Ocampo] Abercrombie & Fitch used people
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before they were
anything more than models.
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-♪ Say goodbye to your generation… ♪
-Taylor Swift.
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Jennifer Lawrence.
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Channing Tatum.
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-♪ Say goodbye to your generation… ♪
-Ashton Kutcher.
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[Barrientos] Heidi Klum.
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[Ocampo] January Jones.
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I mean,
we were looking at full-on advertisements
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as telling us what was cool.
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Magazines were definitely a big thing
because social media just wasn't there.
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♪ Oops, I did it again ♪
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[Karo] MTV, the Video Music Awards,
and the House of Style television show
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gave flyover country access to the things
that they wouldn't see ordinarily.
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Please welcome 98 Degrees to TRL.
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[cheering]
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Trends that might have begun on the east
or west coast now are being shown on MTV
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and through their channels,
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and it made styles move across the country
much more quickly.
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The same happened in malls.
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♪ I was lying on the grass
On Sunday morning of last week… ♪
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That mall culture was everything.
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You went to shop with your family.
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You went to hang out with friends.
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We hung out at the mall,
like, every weekend.
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[Ocampo] My friends and I,
behind our parents' back,
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would sneak over to the mall and hang out.
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We would have our schoolbags,
dressed in our Catholic school uniform.
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[woman 4] The mall was the place
everyone went to pass time.
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So when I turned 16,
I knew that's where I wanted to work.
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♪ I know it's up for me ♪
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♪ If you steal my sunshine ♪
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♪ Making sure I'm not in too deep ♪
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♪ If you steal my sunshine… ♪
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Imagine, like, a search engine
that you could walk through.
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Or, you know,
an online catalog that's an actual place.
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[woman 5] You had to, like,
go to the mall to know what to wear.
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Aw, very cool.
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[Karo] As more malls opened
and people gravitated toward malls,
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not only were they social outlets,
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but they catered to all
the different interests all in one place.
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Specialty stores enabled you
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to be very specific
about what you went shopping for.
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You can go to Hot Topic
if you were kind of punkish.
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You could go to Pac Sun
if you wanted more of that surfer look.
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You could go to Abercrombie & Fitch
if you wanted that preppy look.
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There were lots of brands doing preppy,
but in terms of designers,
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it was undoubtedly
Ralph Lauren, Tommy Hilfiger, Nautica.
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One of the earliest brands
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to really merge youth culture
and sex appeal
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was really Calvin Klein.
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What the hell is that?
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-A dress.
-[dad] Says who?
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Calvin Klein.
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It looks like underwear.
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What Abercrombie did
was create this middle ground
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between sex,
that Calvin Klein was selling,
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and all-American preppiness
that Ralph Lauren was selling.
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You want what you perceive to be
the cool guy wearing.
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♪ That's okay
'Cause I've got no self-esteem… ♪
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So it became that,
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"If only I had Tommy Hilfiger,
I'll be cool."
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Or the GUESS jeans.
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Oh my goodness.
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Some of that stuff was just…
You couldn't get it.
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Abercrombie & Fitch
was a little bit more affordable.
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[Givhan] Just aspirational enough,
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but not so expensive
that it was out of reach.
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The fundamental idea
is that fashion is selling us belonging,
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confidence, cool, sex appeal.
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You know, in many ways,
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the very last thing
that it's selling is actually garments.
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[producer] Do you remember the first time
you went to an Abercrombie store?
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Oh yeah! [laughs]
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Um, I remember, like, walking in
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and just being hit with the sense, like,
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"Oh my God, they've bottled this."
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"They have absolutely crystallized
everything that I hate about high school
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and put it in a store."
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[O'Keefe] First you get there, and you
have two hot guys flanking the outside.
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So if you make it past
those hot guys, right,
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without a little distraction
or a little bit of intimidation.
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When I started there, it was around the
holidays, so they'd also have a Santa hat.
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So, Santa hat, topless and jeans.
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[Karo] One of the things
that Abercrombie did quite brilliantly
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was put up brown shutters over the windows
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and a big image
in the front doorway at the entry.
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So you couldn't see what was in the store
unless you went into the store.
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No other mall retailer did that.
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I mean, they forced you
to come over the threshold.
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♪ I'll be with you, girl ♪
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♪ Like bein' low
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♪ Hey, hey, hey, like bein' stoned… ♪
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[Barrientos] It had a whole vibe to it.
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And you would know you were getting close
because you would hear music.
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[thumping techno music]
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[Ocampo] Music full blast,
and parents hated it.
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[woman 6] Pulsating nightclub beats.
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Massive images
of, like, bare-chested guys.
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[man 8] The whole store
was to be an experience,
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where people went in there and hung out.
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♪ I'll be with you, girl ♪
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♪ Like bein' low… ♪
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[Barrientos] It was considered,
like, all-American look,
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and I considered myself
an all-American girl.
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[laughs] And so I liked that look.
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♪ Like bein' low ♪
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♪ Hey, hey, hey, like bein' ♪
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-♪ Stoned ♪
-[spray hissing]
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[O'Keefe] It's a particular
type of cologne
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that only an Abercrombie store would have.
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You're hit with the smell. [laughs]
You're hit with the smell of Abercrombie.
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That sort of, like, musky, masculine scent
when you walk by.
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I actually would see employees walk around
and spray things with this scent.
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I get migraines easily,
so it was actually hard for me.
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I'd go in, come out
'cause I'd have a headache,
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but for teenagers, it was probably fine.
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I got a lot of it for free,
and it smelled--
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Their cologne always smelled really good.
Yeah.
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My mom was not a fan of the store,
236
00:12:28,247 --> 00:12:31,959
and I remember her asking me,
"I don't understand why you shop there."
237
00:12:32,042 --> 00:12:34,086
The staff was horrendous, to be honest.
238
00:12:34,170 --> 00:12:36,005
We at the company used to talk about it.
239
00:12:36,088 --> 00:12:38,924
-Their job was not to be attentive at all.
-[woman] Excuse me?
240
00:12:39,008 --> 00:12:42,094
[man 9] Actually, their job was to pretend
like you were annoying them.
241
00:12:44,221 --> 00:12:45,055
Excuse me.
242
00:12:46,223 --> 00:12:47,349
-Yeah?
-[laughter]
243
00:12:47,433 --> 00:12:50,060
Somebody at MADtv
must have worked at Abercrombie,
244
00:12:50,144 --> 00:12:51,854
or their brother must have worked there
245
00:12:51,937 --> 00:12:56,275
because they had
the culture of Abercrombie so pegged.
246
00:12:56,358 --> 00:12:59,904
You only got one dressing room.
There's a line. Could you open another?
247
00:12:59,987 --> 00:13:00,988
No.
248
00:13:01,071 --> 00:13:02,782
They weren't exaggerated.
249
00:13:02,865 --> 00:13:04,366
Do you have the key?
250
00:13:04,450 --> 00:13:05,576
Nah, brah.
251
00:13:08,204 --> 00:13:11,373
I think Dutch has it.
Hey, Dutch, you got the key?
252
00:13:11,457 --> 00:13:14,001
[Tkacik] They really do a good job
of capturing, like,
253
00:13:14,084 --> 00:13:16,378
"Where am I? Like, what is this place?"
254
00:13:16,462 --> 00:13:18,088
Hey, Storm, you got the key?
255
00:13:19,799 --> 00:13:22,802
Oh! Yeah, I do. My bad.
256
00:13:22,885 --> 00:13:24,595
[employees laughing]
257
00:13:25,137 --> 00:13:27,431
[woman 7] Every piece of Abercrombie
258
00:13:28,891 --> 00:13:31,143
was by design.
259
00:13:32,895 --> 00:13:34,104
By Mike's design.
260
00:13:37,775 --> 00:13:40,986
The stores, the product, the whole thing,
261
00:13:41,070 --> 00:13:42,863
he was-- he would sign off on.
262
00:13:52,373 --> 00:13:55,042
I was a merchant
reporting directly to Mike.
263
00:13:55,626 --> 00:13:58,087
Essentially, we were together nonstop.
264
00:13:58,838 --> 00:14:01,006
I think I was his second hire.
265
00:14:01,090 --> 00:14:03,968
He had a pure mission,
266
00:14:04,051 --> 00:14:06,804
and that was to build Abercrombie.
267
00:14:07,638 --> 00:14:10,599
[woman 8] Mike Jeffries was known
to be kind of quiet
268
00:14:10,683 --> 00:14:13,102
in the broadest public sphere, you know.
269
00:14:13,185 --> 00:14:16,021
He was not someone
who was giving a lot of TV interviews
270
00:14:16,105 --> 00:14:17,857
or press interviews,
271
00:14:17,940 --> 00:14:21,110
but I think, in person,
he was very charismatic.
272
00:14:21,986 --> 00:14:27,783
[Martin] Michael Jeffries, a very handsome
man from Southern California.
273
00:14:27,867 --> 00:14:31,370
Fit, uh, very intelligent.
274
00:14:31,453 --> 00:14:34,415
I would say much more private.
275
00:14:34,498 --> 00:14:36,876
Not shy, private.
276
00:14:37,376 --> 00:14:40,045
He had a pure mission,
277
00:14:40,129 --> 00:14:42,965
and that was to build Abercrombie
278
00:14:43,048 --> 00:14:46,552
and, you know, make it successful.
279
00:14:47,761 --> 00:14:51,098
[producer] What was the main thing
that motivated him?
280
00:14:51,765 --> 00:14:55,102
[sighs] Well, like everybody,
281
00:14:55,185 --> 00:14:57,187
financial reward.
282
00:15:07,448 --> 00:15:09,450
[woman 6] Mike Jeffries
comes to Abercrombie
283
00:15:09,533 --> 00:15:13,954
when it's still a part of Les Wexner's
retail empire out in Columbus, Ohio,
284
00:15:14,038 --> 00:15:16,832
so it's part
of the Limited's family of brands.
285
00:15:17,791 --> 00:15:18,959
[man 10] As a 25-year-old,
286
00:15:19,043 --> 00:15:22,379
I was going to everybody
that had retail spaces and say,
287
00:15:22,463 --> 00:15:23,797
"I have this idea for a store."
288
00:15:23,881 --> 00:15:25,633
"Would you rent me space?"
289
00:15:25,716 --> 00:15:27,217
And everybody turned me down.
290
00:15:27,301 --> 00:15:30,554
I had no money, no store.
I just had an idea.
291
00:15:30,638 --> 00:15:35,976
Leslie H. Wexner is one of the great
retail masterminds of America.
292
00:15:36,060 --> 00:15:39,188
He is the brains behind
a lot of the mall chains
293
00:15:39,271 --> 00:15:41,523
that we have in the country today.
294
00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,737
He was known
as the Merlin of the Mall, actually.
295
00:15:46,820 --> 00:15:48,739
[fruit machine chiming]
296
00:15:48,822 --> 00:15:51,450
[Karo] Les Wexner built brands
in one of two ways.
297
00:15:51,533 --> 00:15:54,662
He would either take an existing brand
and try a new concept
298
00:15:54,745 --> 00:15:56,580
that lived within that existing brand
299
00:15:56,664 --> 00:15:58,582
and then spin it out if it was successful,
300
00:15:58,666 --> 00:16:01,043
or he would acquire
a brand that was failing.
301
00:16:02,878 --> 00:16:05,881
[Rupp] Abercrombie already had
been around for 100 years.
302
00:16:06,465 --> 00:16:09,343
It started as this outdoorsman brand,
303
00:16:09,426 --> 00:16:12,471
you know, very Americana heritage.
304
00:16:14,473 --> 00:16:18,268
[Berfield] E.B. White described
the windows of the store
305
00:16:18,352 --> 00:16:20,771
as being kind of the masculine dream.
306
00:16:22,106 --> 00:16:25,234
[Maheshwari] And it catered
to sort of elite sportsmen.
307
00:16:25,818 --> 00:16:28,570
[news reporter] On leaving
the White House, he led a safari to Africa
308
00:16:28,654 --> 00:16:30,906
and proved his worth as a big-game hunter.
309
00:16:30,990 --> 00:16:33,575
[Maheshwari] It sold to Teddy Roosevelt,
310
00:16:34,201 --> 00:16:35,577
Ernest Hemingway.
311
00:16:39,373 --> 00:16:40,207
[gunshot]
312
00:16:40,290 --> 00:16:41,709
[Rupp] It fell on hard times.
313
00:16:42,292 --> 00:16:45,587
Les Wexner's company bought Abercrombie.
314
00:16:45,671 --> 00:16:47,631
They kind of tried to revamp the brand.
315
00:16:48,340 --> 00:16:53,095
It was a company that had
shaving cream, books,
316
00:16:53,178 --> 00:16:55,222
fishing gear, and all this stuff
317
00:16:55,305 --> 00:16:59,226
that old guys like Teddy Roosevelt
would probably love to have.
318
00:17:00,310 --> 00:17:01,562
[Karo] When Les first bought it,
319
00:17:01,645 --> 00:17:04,815
he tried to sort of recreate that
and couldn't make that work,
320
00:17:04,898 --> 00:17:07,693
which is when, I think,
he brought in Mike Jeffries,
321
00:17:07,776 --> 00:17:10,320
a failed CEO of Alcott & Andrews,
322
00:17:10,404 --> 00:17:11,989
which was a women's brand
323
00:17:12,072 --> 00:17:14,366
that focused on
professional businesswomen apparel.
324
00:17:17,161 --> 00:17:20,706
He brings in Mike Jeffries
and says, "Let's try it again."
325
00:17:21,790 --> 00:17:26,545
And that's when the idea of Abercrombie
as we know it today came into formation.
326
00:17:30,966 --> 00:17:37,181
We knew we wanted to be the coolest brand
for the 18- to 22-year-olds.
327
00:17:38,307 --> 00:17:43,771
[Rupp] When Mike gets there, initially,
he's wearing loafers and khakis,
328
00:17:43,854 --> 00:17:46,982
and eventually, that transitions
sort of to this button-down,
329
00:17:47,066 --> 00:17:49,193
jeans, and sandals look.
330
00:17:50,027 --> 00:17:52,738
He came up with this formula that worked.
331
00:17:53,238 --> 00:17:57,117
He found a way to connect
sort of the heritage of Abercrombie,
332
00:17:57,201 --> 00:17:59,953
as established in 1892,
333
00:18:00,037 --> 00:18:03,248
catering to elite, privileged people
334
00:18:03,332 --> 00:18:09,171
and combined it
with this very sexy, sexual imagery.
335
00:18:09,755 --> 00:18:12,216
[Berfield] It was meant to be exclusive.
336
00:18:12,299 --> 00:18:13,217
[register rings]
337
00:18:13,300 --> 00:18:17,387
He was proud of it
being an exclusive brand
338
00:18:17,471 --> 00:18:20,933
that conveyed what he considered
kind of a sense of cool.
339
00:18:21,433 --> 00:18:24,770
We built posters, and we put,
340
00:18:24,853 --> 00:18:26,688
"This is what Abercrombie is."
341
00:18:26,772 --> 00:18:29,441
"This is what Abercrombie isn't."
342
00:18:29,525 --> 00:18:32,528
-Abercrombie, the dog is a golden.
-[dog barks]
343
00:18:32,611 --> 00:18:35,697
-And the poodle is not Abercrombie.
-[dog whimpers]
344
00:18:35,781 --> 00:18:39,368
The Abercrombie college kid drives a Jeep.
345
00:18:39,451 --> 00:18:41,912
-[engine revs]
-And he doesn't drive the sedan.
346
00:18:42,579 --> 00:18:43,789
[horn beeps]
347
00:18:45,290 --> 00:18:47,876
Fashion is an industry that is notorious
348
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,546
for not particularly doing
a lot of market research.
349
00:18:50,629 --> 00:18:53,257
The goal is not to give people
what they're asking for,
350
00:18:53,340 --> 00:18:56,051
but to make them ask
for what you're offering.
351
00:19:01,140 --> 00:19:03,350
[bell ringing]
352
00:19:07,062 --> 00:19:10,399
[Rupp] So in 1996,
Mike Jeffries took Abercrombie public.
353
00:19:10,899 --> 00:19:13,735
They were no longer
a part of Les Wexner's empire.
354
00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:16,905
[woman 9] The brand was just on top.
355
00:19:17,990 --> 00:19:19,867
He would have these quarterly meetings,
356
00:19:19,950 --> 00:19:24,204
and they were like massive pep rallies,
you know, around the fire pit
357
00:19:24,288 --> 00:19:27,541
to discuss how much money we're making.
358
00:19:28,292 --> 00:19:30,002
They're just like, "Money, money!"
359
00:19:30,627 --> 00:19:33,672
[Smith-Maglione] You know,
we all had stock, the early people.
360
00:19:33,755 --> 00:19:36,175
I always say I was in the right place
at the right time.
361
00:19:36,758 --> 00:19:39,178
[Blumberg] Abercrombie Kids
launched as well.
362
00:19:40,179 --> 00:19:43,390
And then Hollister sold
that sort of California dream.
363
00:19:44,183 --> 00:19:49,605
Abercrombie & Fitch really had a monopoly
on this, like, lifestyle apparel.
364
00:19:50,105 --> 00:19:53,150
And it helped
make Leslie Wexner a billionaire.
365
00:19:53,984 --> 00:19:57,696
[Tkacik] They built this massive campus
that was just like a college campus.
366
00:19:57,779 --> 00:20:00,616
They were, like,
one of the first big companies to do that,
367
00:20:00,699 --> 00:20:05,495
and the whole idea was that work was life
and life was work.
368
00:20:05,579 --> 00:20:07,247
Everybody would pull all-nighters
369
00:20:07,331 --> 00:20:10,167
because it was like
you were hanging out with your friends.
370
00:20:10,250 --> 00:20:11,668
[camera shutter clicking]
371
00:20:11,752 --> 00:20:15,380
My team called it 13th grade,
'cause it was like-- [laughing]
372
00:20:15,964 --> 00:20:17,299
It did feel like that.
373
00:20:18,383 --> 00:20:20,802
Mike would have
these dinners at his house.
374
00:20:20,886 --> 00:20:24,014
They were huge, catered, crazy events.
375
00:20:24,890 --> 00:20:28,018
There was a lot of partying, hooking up.
Then party with the waitstaff
376
00:20:28,101 --> 00:20:30,270
well after he left and went up to bed.
377
00:20:30,354 --> 00:20:34,066
David Leino tattooed himself
with Abercrombie.
378
00:20:34,149 --> 00:20:36,944
I mean, this became a thing.
379
00:20:37,027 --> 00:20:41,573
It-- it was like a disease
of "Abercrombie is it,
380
00:20:41,657 --> 00:20:45,869
and if you don't, you know, live it
and breathe it, then don't come here."
381
00:20:45,953 --> 00:20:48,038
That's… It was the culture.
382
00:20:48,997 --> 00:20:52,209
[Sanchez] It was your life,
but it wasn't a bad life.
383
00:20:52,292 --> 00:20:55,212
You're going out
three, four, five nights a week.
384
00:20:55,295 --> 00:20:58,548
-We would start with two Irish car bombs.
-[ice clinks]
385
00:20:58,632 --> 00:20:59,967
That's how we started our night.
386
00:21:00,759 --> 00:21:04,805
That's what Abercrombie wanted.
We were seen as a cool group.
387
00:21:06,390 --> 00:21:09,268
In the first week
that I worked at Abercrombie & Fitch,
388
00:21:09,351 --> 00:21:14,648
the HR rep talked about how you could
write Abercrombie & Fitch with dog shit
389
00:21:14,731 --> 00:21:16,942
and put it on a baseball hat
390
00:21:17,025 --> 00:21:18,568
and sell it for 40 bucks.
391
00:21:18,652 --> 00:21:21,822
And she was just like, "That's where
we are right now. It's awesome."
392
00:21:24,866 --> 00:21:28,412
[Berfield] Mike Jeffries, from the start,
used his abilities
393
00:21:28,495 --> 00:21:31,748
and the resources he had from Wexner,
394
00:21:31,832 --> 00:21:34,418
uh, to begin marketing.
395
00:21:35,544 --> 00:21:38,422
[man 9] The imagery that built
that company doesn't exist anymore.
396
00:21:38,505 --> 00:21:40,299
Now it would be through Instagram.
397
00:21:40,382 --> 00:21:43,760
Abercrombie would be, like, an OnlyFans,
I think. Do you know what I mean?
398
00:21:48,890 --> 00:21:52,853
So I was editor-in-chief for the duration
of the run of the A&F Quarterly.
399
00:21:53,854 --> 00:21:55,772
[man 8] Quarterly, The Quarterly,
400
00:21:55,856 --> 00:21:58,317
A&F Quarterly, magalog,
401
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,861
all sort of interchangeable terms.
402
00:22:04,406 --> 00:22:06,575
So the team was shockingly small.
403
00:22:06,658 --> 00:22:11,621
You know, Northeastern white guys
kind of putting this thing together.
404
00:22:11,705 --> 00:22:15,709
We're all, like, super young.
I mean, I was 21, 22.
405
00:22:15,792 --> 00:22:18,337
I was very, very lucky to have, like…
406
00:22:18,420 --> 00:22:21,590
to report to some of the biggest people
in the fashion industry
407
00:22:21,673 --> 00:22:23,592
as someone just out of college.
408
00:22:24,092 --> 00:22:25,677
[Carone] It felt very DIY.
409
00:22:25,761 --> 00:22:30,223
I mean, that's just sort of the spirit
that Savas and Bruce Weber fostered.
410
00:22:30,307 --> 00:22:33,685
I've always felt that men,
just like women,
411
00:22:33,769 --> 00:22:37,981
really need an appreciation of themselves
and the way they look physically.
412
00:22:38,065 --> 00:22:38,940
Go!
413
00:22:39,024 --> 00:22:42,319
I don't think you can overstate
the impact that Bruce Weber…
414
00:22:42,819 --> 00:22:44,946
his aesthetic had.
415
00:22:45,030 --> 00:22:48,450
I mean,
Mike put all his eggs in that basket.
416
00:22:50,285 --> 00:22:53,538
The Abercrombie aesthetic
is Bruce Weber's aesthetic.
417
00:22:54,164 --> 00:22:57,376
These joyful group shots,
418
00:22:57,459 --> 00:22:58,794
young people,
419
00:22:58,877 --> 00:23:01,088
sex, Americana,
420
00:23:01,171 --> 00:23:04,674
golden retrievers, out in the countryside.
421
00:23:05,175 --> 00:23:07,803
[man 11] Bruce Weber is, I think,
the highest-paid photographer.
422
00:23:07,886 --> 00:23:09,096
He was famous.
423
00:23:09,179 --> 00:23:12,265
And he was doing Calvin Klein,
he was doing everyone,
424
00:23:12,349 --> 00:23:15,060
and he made a beautiful book
called Bear Pond.
425
00:23:15,685 --> 00:23:18,814
I'd never seen anything like it,
and that's when I knew I was gay.
426
00:23:18,897 --> 00:23:22,275
Every, uh… gay man I know owns--
427
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:24,528
I certainly-- There's a copy over there.
428
00:23:26,780 --> 00:23:30,075
[Givhan] Abercrombie and Bruce Weber
did some video content.
429
00:23:31,993 --> 00:23:34,079
[crew] This is Brandon. Take one. Mark.
430
00:23:35,163 --> 00:23:37,207
[Weber] This is a musical we're doing,
431
00:23:37,290 --> 00:23:39,543
and we need you to dance. Do you dance?
432
00:23:39,626 --> 00:23:43,004
I don't really dance,
but I pretend I dance,
433
00:23:43,088 --> 00:23:44,673
and that's usually good enough.
434
00:23:46,716 --> 00:23:50,178
[man 12] It was clear to anyone
who was paying attention
435
00:23:50,262 --> 00:23:54,558
that there were many gay men
involved in all of it.
436
00:23:54,641 --> 00:23:57,185
I think the brilliance of the brand
was that that was…
437
00:23:57,269 --> 00:24:01,314
like, went right over the head
of their target customer,
438
00:24:01,398 --> 00:24:04,359
like, the straight, college frat bro.
439
00:24:05,402 --> 00:24:09,114
After college, I moved to San Francisco
and was working at XY Magazine,
440
00:24:09,197 --> 00:24:11,783
which was a magazine for young gay men.
441
00:24:11,867 --> 00:24:15,579
A lot of high school students
would send us their photo
442
00:24:15,662 --> 00:24:17,664
and would send us
an essay or an experience
443
00:24:17,747 --> 00:24:20,208
of what it was like
being out in their high school.
444
00:24:20,292 --> 00:24:25,922
It was still possible in the late '90s
to be a gay kid in Iowa
445
00:24:26,006 --> 00:24:27,924
and to think that you were the only one.
446
00:24:28,758 --> 00:24:31,553
More of those boys
started wearing Abercrombie,
447
00:24:31,636 --> 00:24:34,848
and that fashion world,
and that kind of masculinity,
448
00:24:34,931 --> 00:24:36,057
and whatever that meant,
449
00:24:36,141 --> 00:24:38,727
all of this was happening
in the late '90s.
450
00:24:43,565 --> 00:24:47,486
[Givhan] For a lot of people,
they looked at those ads and those videos
451
00:24:47,569 --> 00:24:51,406
and were like,
"My fantasy is being represented."
452
00:24:53,325 --> 00:24:59,956
What Bruce Weber does is to give back
to gay people this classical thing.
453
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,293
It's, like, take away shame from the past,
454
00:25:03,376 --> 00:25:08,673
this distance from immediate sex
or sex jokes or gayness.
455
00:25:09,591 --> 00:25:10,425
It's like a…
456
00:25:11,384 --> 00:25:12,427
a distance.
457
00:25:15,180 --> 00:25:18,433
Bruce Weber is not the first person
to do Bruce Weber boys.
458
00:25:18,517 --> 00:25:21,478
There's been a history of it
going back to ancient Greece.
459
00:25:23,396 --> 00:25:24,731
Abercrombie came to me
460
00:25:24,814 --> 00:25:27,859
and asked me to create the murals
for the Abercrombie stores.
461
00:25:30,987 --> 00:25:35,283
These homoerotic but beautiful guys
interacting with each other.
462
00:25:36,868 --> 00:25:41,540
They make you think about the eternal
and that everything is forever good.
463
00:25:45,544 --> 00:25:46,461
Take one. Mark.
464
00:25:50,465 --> 00:25:52,467
So I'm the armpit guy.
465
00:25:54,094 --> 00:25:57,556
Abercrombie found a niche
with finding brand new models.
466
00:25:57,639 --> 00:25:59,349
Middle America,
467
00:25:59,432 --> 00:26:01,351
big, strong, like, dudes.
468
00:26:01,434 --> 00:26:03,645
And I was like…
[mimics accent] "Oh yeah, don't you know,
469
00:26:03,728 --> 00:26:06,147
I'm, like, here from Minnesota
for my modeling."
470
00:26:07,649 --> 00:26:11,403
I guess I looked like what they kind of
were always puttin' out there.
471
00:26:12,153 --> 00:26:13,738
I'm from Nebraska.
472
00:26:13,822 --> 00:26:16,616
I was captain of the football team,
of the wrestling team,
473
00:26:16,700 --> 00:26:19,077
homecoming king, all that kind of stuff.
474
00:26:19,911 --> 00:26:23,081
It wasn't, like, a big dream of mine
to be an Abercrombie model.
475
00:26:23,790 --> 00:26:26,001
I was drunk in a bar, and some lady--
476
00:26:26,084 --> 00:26:29,963
some gal that was apparently
a scout for Abercrombie was like, um,
477
00:26:30,046 --> 00:26:32,465
"Will you come into the store tomorrow?
You have a great look."
478
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:35,302
We took a couple Polaroids,
479
00:26:35,385 --> 00:26:37,470
and then three weeks later,
I was in Brazil.
480
00:26:38,263 --> 00:26:41,975
That was the first time I saw the ocean
and traveled outside of Nebraska.
481
00:26:44,394 --> 00:26:48,064
People on crew would just insinuate
to just be yourself, be original,
482
00:26:48,148 --> 00:26:49,733
just do whatever.
483
00:26:49,816 --> 00:26:52,068
You know, climb trees, jump in water.
484
00:26:52,652 --> 00:26:55,488
Bruce, if you caught his eye
doing something natural,
485
00:26:56,031 --> 00:26:57,699
interacting with the wilderness,
486
00:26:57,782 --> 00:27:00,452
that would be a good way
to get your picture taken.
487
00:27:00,952 --> 00:27:02,704
There would just be guys in a tree,
488
00:27:02,787 --> 00:27:06,458
just like, "Hey, Bruce!
It's a tree, and I'm in it."
489
00:27:06,541 --> 00:27:09,836
Or just, like, doing push-ups on a curb.
490
00:27:09,919 --> 00:27:13,131
The guys were so testosteroney
'cause it's a bunch of ripped dudes.
491
00:27:13,214 --> 00:27:15,759
And then the guys
are trying to impress the women.
492
00:27:15,842 --> 00:27:18,845
It's really… It's just, like,
humanity at its basic level.
493
00:27:23,933 --> 00:27:25,310
[Sanchez] Three, four times a year,
494
00:27:25,393 --> 00:27:29,981
we got Bruce Weber photos
to put up in our store.
495
00:27:31,107 --> 00:27:35,236
When you're excited about
the unveil of the Bruce Weber photos…
496
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:40,533
Who did they choose as the representative
of Abercrombie & Fitch?
497
00:27:41,660 --> 00:27:43,787
There's other brands for-- for everybody.
498
00:27:45,121 --> 00:27:46,748
That's Abercrombie & Fitch.
499
00:27:46,831 --> 00:27:50,627
It behooved me to get out
and recruit these types of people
500
00:27:51,127 --> 00:27:54,005
so that they could create an environment.
501
00:27:54,089 --> 00:27:55,757
How do you think you're gonna do?
502
00:27:56,341 --> 00:27:57,175
Pretty good.
503
00:27:57,759 --> 00:27:59,969
♪ I'm head of the class ♪
504
00:28:00,470 --> 00:28:02,263
♪ I'm popular… ♪
505
00:28:02,931 --> 00:28:06,726
[Denizet-Lewis] The stores would
each focus on a particular college campus,
506
00:28:06,810 --> 00:28:11,981
and they would try to recruit
the best-looking fraternity guys.
507
00:28:12,065 --> 00:28:14,359
If a fraternity guy was popular,
508
00:28:14,442 --> 00:28:16,986
other people would say,
"All right, what's he wearing?"
509
00:28:17,070 --> 00:28:18,363
And wanna copy that.
510
00:28:18,446 --> 00:28:20,407
♪ I'm the party star ♪
511
00:28:20,490 --> 00:28:22,283
♪ I'm popular ♪
512
00:28:22,367 --> 00:28:27,330
The bet was that if we get
the right guys on the right fraternities
513
00:28:27,414 --> 00:28:31,751
to wear the clothes and be ambassadors
for the clothes, then that's gonna--
514
00:28:31,835 --> 00:28:34,421
Other people are gonna wanna copy that.
515
00:28:34,504 --> 00:28:37,173
It was, like, pre-digital,
like, influencer marketing.
516
00:28:37,257 --> 00:28:38,758
As a manager at Abercrombie,
517
00:28:38,842 --> 00:28:42,011
they teach you very early on
about recruiting.
518
00:28:42,095 --> 00:28:44,389
You just-- You have to recruit,
519
00:28:44,472 --> 00:28:49,894
but not only do you have to recruit,
you have to recruit good-looking people,
520
00:28:49,978 --> 00:28:52,063
and this is what good-looking looks like.
521
00:28:52,147 --> 00:28:53,773
We literally had a book.
522
00:28:54,607 --> 00:28:56,192
[female voice] Exhibiting the A&F look
523
00:28:56,276 --> 00:28:59,988
is a tremendously important part
of the overall experience
524
00:29:00,071 --> 00:29:02,407
at the Abercrombie & Fitch stores.
525
00:29:02,490 --> 00:29:06,661
Our people in the store
are an inspiration to the customer.
526
00:29:06,745 --> 00:29:12,459
A neatly combed, attractive,
natural, classic hairstyle is acceptable.
527
00:29:13,084 --> 00:29:16,337
Dreadlocks are unacceptable
for men and women.
528
00:29:17,589 --> 00:29:19,924
Gold chains are not acceptable for men.
529
00:29:20,467 --> 00:29:24,763
Women may wear
a thin, short, delicate silver necklace.
530
00:29:24,846 --> 00:29:27,474
Brand representatives are required to wear
531
00:29:27,557 --> 00:29:30,018
appropriate undergarments at all times.
532
00:29:30,977 --> 00:29:32,020
Natural.
533
00:29:32,103 --> 00:29:33,313
American.
534
00:29:33,396 --> 00:29:34,606
Classic.
535
00:29:34,689 --> 00:29:36,399
The A&F look.
536
00:29:37,901 --> 00:29:43,281
No other mall brand went to the extreme
that Abercrombie did
537
00:29:43,364 --> 00:29:48,870
in micromanaging the look
of everything from the store
538
00:29:48,953 --> 00:29:52,624
down to, like, the person
who was cleaning up the stockroom.
539
00:29:52,707 --> 00:29:55,502
Jeffries was an extreme--
540
00:29:55,585 --> 00:29:58,254
He was very much a micromanager.
541
00:29:58,338 --> 00:30:03,384
I mean, if you look at the stores,
they were absolutely pristine. Right?
542
00:30:03,468 --> 00:30:06,638
I mean, it was--
Every detail, Mike cared about.
543
00:30:07,597 --> 00:30:10,725
[Rupp] Mike Jeffries was well-known
for his unannounced store visits.
544
00:30:10,809 --> 00:30:15,021
He cared about what stores looked like,
and he wanted to see them in person.
545
00:30:15,104 --> 00:30:17,106
A lot of people
have called them "blitzes."
546
00:30:17,190 --> 00:30:19,609
[Sanchez] So say a visit was on Friday.
547
00:30:19,692 --> 00:30:22,529
Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday,
548
00:30:22,612 --> 00:30:24,614
you were doin' all-nights.
549
00:30:24,697 --> 00:30:28,034
This is where we gotta make sure,
like, everything is spick-and-span.
550
00:30:28,117 --> 00:30:29,536
Everything gets wiped down.
551
00:30:29,619 --> 00:30:30,954
There's no dust anywhere.
552
00:30:31,037 --> 00:30:33,164
The moose head looks clean.
553
00:30:33,665 --> 00:30:37,460
But the thing that mattered most, day-of,
was who was working.
554
00:30:37,544 --> 00:30:40,797
There were some people
that you kept on staff just for visits.
555
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:45,677
It wasn't, "Hey, your store's not hitting
this number or hitting that number."
556
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,346
It was, "You gotta get
more good-looking people in here."
557
00:30:48,847 --> 00:30:52,642
The high-water mark,
when we all finally knew that we made it,
558
00:30:52,725 --> 00:30:55,311
was when LFO came out with "Summer Girls."
559
00:30:55,395 --> 00:30:56,563
That LFO song.
560
00:30:56,646 --> 00:30:57,522
"Summer Girls."
561
00:30:57,605 --> 00:31:00,400
♪ I like girls who wear
Abercrombie & Fitch ♪
562
00:31:00,483 --> 00:31:02,360
"I like girls that wear
Abercrombie & Fitch."
563
00:31:02,443 --> 00:31:03,987
♪ I'd take 'em if I had one wish ♪
564
00:31:04,070 --> 00:31:06,739
"I think it's fly…"
Something about summer. "…the summer."
565
00:31:06,823 --> 00:31:09,576
It came out in the summer.
"We're doing something right."
566
00:31:10,618 --> 00:31:13,663
♪ I like girls that wear
Abercrombie & Fitch ♪
567
00:31:13,746 --> 00:31:15,582
♪ I'd take her if I had one wish ♪
568
00:31:16,165 --> 00:31:18,251
♪ She's been gone since that summer… ♪
569
00:31:18,334 --> 00:31:22,005
That was probably the coolest thing
that had ever happened to Mike Jeffries.
570
00:31:22,505 --> 00:31:25,466
In that moment, he'd knew he'd--
he'd done what he wanted.
571
00:31:26,634 --> 00:31:29,512
From a purely creative point of view,
572
00:31:30,054 --> 00:31:31,472
he was a mad genius.
573
00:31:31,556 --> 00:31:33,516
He knows what he's doing
and what he wants,
574
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,686
and he's kinda like,
"I don't care what anyone else is doing."
575
00:31:36,769 --> 00:31:41,858
"I'm gonna do what I think
is beautiful, cool," you know, whatever.
576
00:31:41,941 --> 00:31:44,360
[sighs] And he did. He executed on it.
577
00:31:50,867 --> 00:31:55,413
So my first interaction with Abercrombie
was receiving a catalog out of the blue.
578
00:31:55,496 --> 00:31:57,415
I don't know how I got
on their mailing list.
579
00:31:57,498 --> 00:32:01,002
And I remember seeing
these young people smiling and frolicking,
580
00:32:01,085 --> 00:32:03,171
and I was like,
"When I'm in college, maybe…
581
00:32:03,671 --> 00:32:07,926
maybe I'm gonna hang out with my friends
in a field, like, arm-to-arm like this
582
00:32:08,009 --> 00:32:09,594
and jump around and, I don't know,
583
00:32:09,677 --> 00:32:12,347
get in a dog pile like they do
in these catalogs."
584
00:32:12,430 --> 00:32:13,723
[laughing] I don't know!
585
00:32:15,391 --> 00:32:17,769
My name's Phil Yu. I run a blog
586
00:32:17,852 --> 00:32:19,187
called Angry Asian Man
587
00:32:20,021 --> 00:32:23,775
to talk about my Asian American identity
and my community.
588
00:32:24,609 --> 00:32:28,237
I remember some readers
started sending photos to me about like,
589
00:32:28,321 --> 00:32:30,198
"Have you seen this shit at Abercrombie?"
590
00:32:30,281 --> 00:32:32,659
You know, and it was--
It was these T-shirts.
591
00:32:34,994 --> 00:32:39,332
Graphic tees for us were our personality.
592
00:32:40,792 --> 00:32:43,711
You know, we were moving at light speed.
593
00:32:43,795 --> 00:32:47,173
The graphic tee business
was a one and done type thing,
594
00:32:47,256 --> 00:32:50,802
so you had to continuously produce art.
595
00:32:51,511 --> 00:32:55,223
All those stupid slogans we put on there
and everything, that was us.
596
00:32:55,306 --> 00:32:56,599
We didn't have copywriters.
597
00:32:56,683 --> 00:32:59,018
They really wanted us to be irreverent.
598
00:32:59,102 --> 00:33:01,187
They really wanted us to be funny,
599
00:33:01,896 --> 00:33:06,109
relevant to that late teen,
early 20s, like, college crowd.
600
00:33:07,276 --> 00:33:09,487
[Sheahan] One of the themes
was Buddha Fest,
601
00:33:09,570 --> 00:33:13,324
and it had, like,
a cliché Asian big fat Buddha.
602
00:33:13,408 --> 00:33:15,952
I do remember one
that I got a kick out of that was like,
603
00:33:16,035 --> 00:33:19,122
"West Virginia,
no lifeguards in this gene pool."
604
00:33:19,205 --> 00:33:20,331
I laughed at the time,
605
00:33:20,415 --> 00:33:24,002
and now I'm like,
"That's really offensive and problematic."
606
00:33:24,085 --> 00:33:29,007
The second shirt on the table
was "Juan more for the road."
607
00:33:29,090 --> 00:33:32,468
So they had a donkey
holding a taco with a sombrero.
608
00:33:33,052 --> 00:33:34,679
The one that everybody remembers,
609
00:33:34,762 --> 00:33:38,933
Wong Brothers,
advertising a fictional laundry service.
610
00:33:39,017 --> 00:33:41,728
The slogan was,
"Two Wongs can make it white."
611
00:33:43,604 --> 00:33:45,398
Pop culture Orientalism, right?
612
00:33:45,481 --> 00:33:46,983
-[buzzer sounds]
-[grunts]
613
00:33:47,066 --> 00:33:50,653
[Yu] It's all this stuff taken from
people's understanding of Asians…
614
00:33:50,737 --> 00:33:51,612
[laughing]
615
00:33:51,696 --> 00:33:53,906
…if you just watched
American TV and movies.
616
00:33:53,990 --> 00:33:55,408
[gong sounds]
617
00:33:55,491 --> 00:33:58,244
What's happenin', hot stuff?
618
00:33:58,327 --> 00:34:01,581
[Yu] So it's the kitschy font
and the-- sort of the caricatures
619
00:34:01,664 --> 00:34:04,542
of the buck-toothed
and the slant-eyed Asian, so…
620
00:34:05,043 --> 00:34:06,878
"Two Wongs can make it white."
621
00:34:08,921 --> 00:34:10,381
Asian Americans are often taught
622
00:34:10,465 --> 00:34:12,884
that you're supposed to
just keep your head down,
623
00:34:12,967 --> 00:34:14,177
not rock the boat,
624
00:34:14,677 --> 00:34:17,430
especially as a lot of us
are the children of immigrants.
625
00:34:17,513 --> 00:34:18,347
But I think
626
00:34:19,348 --> 00:34:22,351
at that moment, I was like,
"It's okay to be angry about this."
627
00:34:25,021 --> 00:34:28,107
[Gruys] I don't know what it was,
but, like, the kids,
628
00:34:28,191 --> 00:34:30,485
the consumers
just loved wearing those tees,
629
00:34:30,568 --> 00:34:31,944
so we kept makin' 'em.
630
00:34:32,904 --> 00:34:33,821
And they were cheap.
631
00:34:33,905 --> 00:34:37,158
You could sell tees
for, like, an 85% markup.
632
00:34:37,241 --> 00:34:38,993
Whenever something like this happens,
633
00:34:39,077 --> 00:34:41,996
I always imagined in my mind
a scenario where somebody, like--
634
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,665
Man, if they just had
one person who was like,
635
00:34:44,749 --> 00:34:46,417
"Maybe this is not a good idea."
636
00:34:46,501 --> 00:34:48,753
I had nothing to do with whatever,
but I will say this.
637
00:34:48,836 --> 00:34:51,839
Two of the main team people
were Asian Americans,
638
00:34:52,340 --> 00:34:54,759
which is why
it got approved in the first place.
639
00:34:54,842 --> 00:34:58,930
You know, whenever-- This is--
I feel like you just dropped a bomb on me.
640
00:34:59,013 --> 00:35:02,016
In terms of-- What?
There was an Asian designer there?
641
00:35:02,100 --> 00:35:03,309
Maybe there was somebody,
642
00:35:03,392 --> 00:35:07,480
and then, you know, your cover is--
is the one Asian guy in the room.
643
00:35:07,563 --> 00:35:10,566
It's the one guy who's like, "I don't…"
"Do you find it offensive?"
644
00:35:10,650 --> 00:35:13,611
And is that guy really gonna be,
like, "No." I mean, "Yeah."
645
00:35:13,694 --> 00:35:16,656
Or is he gonna say-- Or is he gonna
flip over the table and be, like,
646
00:35:16,739 --> 00:35:19,200
"I-- No, I think this is
really offensive to my identity."
647
00:35:19,283 --> 00:35:23,037
In this corporate, stuffy environment
where everyone around you is white,
648
00:35:23,121 --> 00:35:24,080
and you're like--
649
00:35:24,163 --> 00:35:27,166
I don't know if that's really
a safe place to do that, right?
650
00:35:28,334 --> 00:35:30,044
[camera shutter clicking]
651
00:35:33,589 --> 00:35:35,633
This blatant racist product
652
00:35:35,716 --> 00:35:39,053
got a lot of Asian American students
particularly enraged.
653
00:35:39,554 --> 00:35:41,055
They were hitting them where,
654
00:35:41,139 --> 00:35:43,683
"This was supposed to be my jam,
supposed to be for me,"
655
00:35:43,766 --> 00:35:47,019
and that's where the reaction
really started to grow amongst students,
656
00:35:47,103 --> 00:35:48,604
Asian American student groups.
657
00:35:48,688 --> 00:35:50,273
[crowd yelling]
658
00:35:53,985 --> 00:35:58,573
There's always people who don't really see
the pain behind something like that
659
00:35:58,656 --> 00:36:01,450
and just see it
as a funny thing that happened.
660
00:36:01,534 --> 00:36:03,911
The protest was nonviolent and orderly,
661
00:36:03,995 --> 00:36:06,205
but the same cannot be said
of the parking lot
662
00:36:06,289 --> 00:36:07,957
when they all went to drive home.
663
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:09,667
[audience laughter]
664
00:36:10,668 --> 00:36:13,212
[producer] Let's talk about
the Two Wongs shirt.
665
00:36:13,296 --> 00:36:16,299
That shirt-- That's one of the tees
that I remember. [laughs]
666
00:36:16,382 --> 00:36:19,468
Mike would pull everything
back from the stores,
667
00:36:19,552 --> 00:36:21,345
and we actually would burn them
668
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:26,851
to make sure nobody ever ended up
getting the merchandise.
669
00:36:28,102 --> 00:36:30,021
But they kept
the "Juan more for the road."
670
00:36:30,104 --> 00:36:32,565
Clearly, it was, like, a donkey, you know.
671
00:36:33,065 --> 00:36:35,318
Obviously,
they were insinuating something.
672
00:36:37,486 --> 00:36:39,363
[Yu] The poor publicist
who has to write this,
673
00:36:39,447 --> 00:36:44,619
they actually said, "We thought
that Asians would love these shirts."
674
00:36:44,702 --> 00:36:47,496
That's from a press release
from-- from Abercrombie.
675
00:36:47,580 --> 00:36:51,500
We were always just trying to be
quick-witted and things like that.
676
00:36:51,584 --> 00:36:54,879
And, um… I know
that we made a couple mistakes.
677
00:36:54,962 --> 00:36:58,716
We kind of owned up to our responsibility,
678
00:36:58,799 --> 00:36:59,800
made it
679
00:37:00,927 --> 00:37:03,346
right as fast as we could,
680
00:37:03,429 --> 00:37:07,016
and then we kind of,
you know, learned and moved on.
681
00:37:07,892 --> 00:37:11,062
Then we would get in trouble,
and, "Don't do that again."
682
00:37:11,145 --> 00:37:13,439
"But do something just like it," you know.
683
00:37:14,106 --> 00:37:17,526
Obviously, it's from the top down
if they approve those kinds of shirts,
684
00:37:17,610 --> 00:37:21,239
of what there… what might have been
going on behind the scenes.
685
00:37:23,115 --> 00:37:25,451
You know,
they're operating in a bubble, right?
686
00:37:25,534 --> 00:37:29,664
They're operating in a place
where they don't see what it comes down to
687
00:37:29,747 --> 00:37:33,209
at that consumer level
of this Asian kid looking at these shirts
688
00:37:33,292 --> 00:37:35,127
and being like, "What is this bullshit?"
689
00:37:35,211 --> 00:37:37,463
Or being confused.
"Is this supposed to be cool?"
690
00:37:37,546 --> 00:37:41,342
Like, "This is all I see of myself
when I look at pop culture."
691
00:37:41,425 --> 00:37:44,804
Like, "Maybe this is
what I'm supposed to accept
692
00:37:44,887 --> 00:37:46,722
as an Asian American," you know.
693
00:37:47,723 --> 00:37:53,980
The first time I became aware
of the image becoming problematic for me
694
00:37:54,063 --> 00:37:56,440
was Sam Raimi's Spider-Man.
695
00:37:56,524 --> 00:37:58,901
I think it came out in 2001,
with Tobey Maguire.
696
00:37:58,985 --> 00:38:00,319
Flash, it was just an accident!
697
00:38:00,403 --> 00:38:04,073
If you know the comics, Peter Parker's
biggest bully is Flash Thompson,
698
00:38:04,156 --> 00:38:08,286
and he's traditionally been
a big, blond, like, asshole.
699
00:38:08,369 --> 00:38:11,622
In the movie, he is dressed head-to-toe
in Abercrombie the entire time,
700
00:38:11,706 --> 00:38:13,916
and it really upset me.
It really, really upset me.
701
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:17,545
I was like, "That's not good."
I knew it wasn't good. Know what I mean?
702
00:38:17,628 --> 00:38:20,047
'Cause something had shifted there, so…
703
00:38:20,131 --> 00:38:22,550
[producer] Before that,
what did Abercrombie signify to you?
704
00:38:22,633 --> 00:38:25,761
It was-- It was a cool kid
who would never do anything like that.
705
00:38:26,262 --> 00:38:28,889
♪ I'm the head of the class ♪
706
00:38:28,973 --> 00:38:31,100
♪ I'm popular ♪
707
00:38:31,183 --> 00:38:35,521
In 2003, I was a retail reporter
at The Wall Street Journal,
708
00:38:35,604 --> 00:38:40,109
and, um, I'm in New York, visiting stores.
709
00:38:40,609 --> 00:38:44,071
A colleague and I walk into
this American Eagle Outfitters store.
710
00:38:44,155 --> 00:38:47,033
My colleague immediately starts
chatting up the manager.
711
00:38:47,116 --> 00:38:50,119
She asked, "How'd you end up
at American Eagle Outfitters?"
712
00:38:50,202 --> 00:38:53,706
And she says, "I was a district manager
for Abercrombie & Fitch,
713
00:38:53,789 --> 00:38:56,208
and then I moved over."
And my colleague says,
714
00:38:56,292 --> 00:38:57,710
"Oh, that's interesting."
715
00:38:57,793 --> 00:39:02,298
"It's a slightly different culture,
trying to keep everybody brand positive."
716
00:39:02,381 --> 00:39:07,219
And this manager just starts crying.
717
00:39:07,303 --> 00:39:10,014
And she's like, "I'm so happy here."
718
00:39:10,097 --> 00:39:12,391
"I get to hire who I want."
719
00:39:12,475 --> 00:39:16,020
She gestures to the guy
who's leading women to the dressing room,
720
00:39:16,103 --> 00:39:18,731
who's, like, a light-skinned Black guy
with dreadlocks.
721
00:39:19,231 --> 00:39:23,694
And my colleague sort of nods
like she understands what is being said.
722
00:39:24,195 --> 00:39:26,197
I'm clearly not getting something here.
723
00:39:27,323 --> 00:39:32,453
So I started interviewing people who had
Abercrombie & Fitch on their résumés,
724
00:39:32,536 --> 00:39:34,455
and, essentially, what I learned was,
725
00:39:34,538 --> 00:39:38,709
most people were recruited
for the job on the basis of their looks.
726
00:39:40,586 --> 00:39:44,715
What I started to sense
was that they were firing people too.
727
00:39:44,799 --> 00:39:47,510
And that was the thing that really got me,
728
00:39:47,593 --> 00:39:50,554
because that seemed
like it maybe wasn't legal?
729
00:39:50,638 --> 00:39:57,061
So I finally found a manager,
um, to sort of tell me, "Listen,
730
00:39:57,645 --> 00:40:02,942
you have to rank all your employees
on the scale of, like, cool to rocks."
731
00:40:03,025 --> 00:40:04,360
"And if they aren't at least cool,
732
00:40:04,443 --> 00:40:07,238
then you have to zero them out
off the schedule."
733
00:40:07,321 --> 00:40:09,073
It didn't matter what your sales were.
734
00:40:09,156 --> 00:40:14,203
All that mattered was that
the employees that you took pictures of
735
00:40:14,286 --> 00:40:17,331
and sent back to headquarters were hot.
736
00:40:18,666 --> 00:40:20,292
Clearly this is illegal?
737
00:40:21,001 --> 00:40:21,919
Right?
738
00:40:23,838 --> 00:40:26,549
I wasn't ever scheduled a ton of hours.
739
00:40:26,632 --> 00:40:28,384
So I went to one of the managers,
740
00:40:28,467 --> 00:40:30,803
and I said,
"Hey, can I have more day shifts?"
741
00:40:30,886 --> 00:40:33,889
And he said, "You know,
there aren't any. They're packed."
742
00:40:33,973 --> 00:40:35,683
"All we have are these night shifts."
743
00:40:35,766 --> 00:40:40,187
I remember telling him,
"I don't like vacuuming," you know.
744
00:40:40,271 --> 00:40:42,022
"I don't like cleaning the windows,"
745
00:40:42,106 --> 00:40:46,068
and he told me, "But, Carla,
you're such a good window washer."
746
00:40:46,152 --> 00:40:47,695
"You're so good at it."
747
00:40:47,778 --> 00:40:50,531
And I told him,
"Well, you know, I can swap with someone."
748
00:40:50,614 --> 00:40:53,409
"My friend said she'd be fine
to swap this four-hour shift."
749
00:40:53,492 --> 00:40:55,411
"She doesn't mind working at night."
750
00:40:55,494 --> 00:40:57,663
"Well, no,
we don't like you guys to swap."
751
00:40:57,746 --> 00:41:00,124
"If you were assigned that shift,
you were assigned it."
752
00:41:00,207 --> 00:41:03,502
So I complain to my girlfriend,
"I can't believe this. What is going on?"
753
00:41:03,586 --> 00:41:06,255
She told me, "I bet they're not
scheduling you because you're Black."
754
00:41:06,338 --> 00:41:08,215
"Like, no other Black people work there."
755
00:41:09,216 --> 00:41:11,302
When she said that,
it was one of those, like…
756
00:41:11,385 --> 00:41:14,346
"Oh, I know.
Like, in the heart of my heart, I know."
757
00:41:14,430 --> 00:41:15,473
"I know that's why,
758
00:41:15,556 --> 00:41:17,600
but maybe I can do something
to overcome that."
759
00:41:17,683 --> 00:41:20,978
"This is a company.
This isn't, like, one person
760
00:41:21,979 --> 00:41:22,813
stopping me."
761
00:41:22,897 --> 00:41:25,858
And then after that,
I was not on the schedule.
762
00:41:25,941 --> 00:41:29,570
And I remember asking him,
"What should I do? Do I still work here?"
763
00:41:29,653 --> 00:41:32,156
"I haven't been on the schedule
in two months,"
764
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:34,742
and he's like,
"No, you do. Just keep calling us."
765
00:41:35,367 --> 00:41:37,953
I knew I had been fired,
and I just moved on.
766
00:41:38,037 --> 00:41:39,663
I mean, there wasn't a resignation.
767
00:41:39,747 --> 00:41:43,501
There wasn't anyone that called me.
I just… It was over.
768
00:41:45,377 --> 00:41:48,380
Where our store was
was in very close proximity to UC Irvine.
769
00:41:48,464 --> 00:41:52,301
UC Irvine is known as UCI,
University of Chinese and Indians.
770
00:41:52,384 --> 00:41:53,802
It's, like, 75% Asian.
771
00:41:53,886 --> 00:41:56,722
Korean, Indian, Chinese, Japanese.
772
00:41:56,805 --> 00:41:58,849
So it wasn't a surprise
773
00:41:58,933 --> 00:42:02,853
that a lot of the staff
were of Asian descent.
774
00:42:03,521 --> 00:42:09,693
We finished the holiday season,
and we're notified by a note saying,
775
00:42:09,777 --> 00:42:14,323
"If you don't have a paycheck," you know,
"you've been let go for the season."
776
00:42:14,406 --> 00:42:16,784
My name wasn't on the list,
777
00:42:16,867 --> 00:42:21,539
so I talked to my other friends.
778
00:42:21,622 --> 00:42:25,000
I was like, "My name wasn't on the list.
Did you guys--"
779
00:42:25,084 --> 00:42:26,835
They're like, "We're not on the list."
780
00:42:26,919 --> 00:42:28,712
And I was like, "That's super weird."
781
00:42:28,796 --> 00:42:32,007
Then we talked to our assistant manager,
who's Asian American.
782
00:42:32,091 --> 00:42:35,719
He said the real reason
is because after the corporate blitz,
783
00:42:35,803 --> 00:42:38,931
one of the people from corporate
went around,
784
00:42:39,014 --> 00:42:42,309
and they noticed
a bunch of Asian people in the store.
785
00:42:42,393 --> 00:42:45,062
They said, "You need more staff
that looks like this."
786
00:42:45,145 --> 00:42:47,773
And they pointed to an Abercrombie poster,
787
00:42:47,856 --> 00:42:50,359
and it was-- it was a Caucasian model.
788
00:42:54,363 --> 00:42:57,992
It hurt because I had such
a positive experience with this company,
789
00:42:58,075 --> 00:42:59,577
and to find out they were like,
790
00:42:59,660 --> 00:43:01,996
"No, we don't want you
because of the way you look,"
791
00:43:02,079 --> 00:43:03,497
it actually was very hurtful.
792
00:43:04,456 --> 00:43:06,208
Then I took all the posters down.
793
00:43:06,292 --> 00:43:09,920
It was because I didn't look like
those people in the photograph
794
00:43:10,004 --> 00:43:12,256
that that's why
I didn't work there anymore.
795
00:43:12,756 --> 00:43:13,841
I was mad.
796
00:43:13,924 --> 00:43:18,721
But what are you gonna do?
We're, like, 21-year-olds. What do you do?
797
00:43:18,804 --> 00:43:21,557
It seemed super explicit.
798
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,518
I went to the store.
799
00:43:24,602 --> 00:43:26,812
I spoke with whoever was working there,
800
00:43:26,895 --> 00:43:28,981
and she said,
"I'm sorry. We can't rehire you."
801
00:43:29,064 --> 00:43:30,816
And I asked, "Why not?"
802
00:43:31,567 --> 00:43:34,570
And she said,
"My manager said we can't rehire you
803
00:43:34,653 --> 00:43:38,073
'cause we already have
too many Filipinos working at this store."
804
00:43:39,783 --> 00:43:41,744
I was like, "Are you serious?"
805
00:43:41,827 --> 00:43:45,623
And she looked pretty uncomfortable,
and she was like, "Yeah."
806
00:43:46,624 --> 00:43:48,709
At no point did I ever say I was Filipino,
807
00:43:48,792 --> 00:43:51,629
so that was a guess on the part
of the person that worked there
808
00:43:51,712 --> 00:43:52,921
that I was Filipino.
809
00:43:53,631 --> 00:43:57,051
I remember telling my parents,
and I told close friends.
810
00:43:57,134 --> 00:44:01,513
They heard it and they very much agreed
with me that that was fucked up.
811
00:44:01,597 --> 00:44:04,391
I guess people didn't know what to do,
including my parents.
812
00:44:04,475 --> 00:44:06,393
Like, what do you tell your kid
813
00:44:06,477 --> 00:44:11,106
when someone says that we can't hire you
'cause of who you are?
814
00:44:11,190 --> 00:44:13,567
I talked to my mom
about everything going on,
815
00:44:13,651 --> 00:44:16,528
and she basically said,
816
00:44:16,612 --> 00:44:19,782
"I'm really surprised
that you even wanted to work there."
817
00:44:19,865 --> 00:44:22,117
She's like,
"I'm sure you were fine to clean up,
818
00:44:22,701 --> 00:44:26,121
but that store made it clear,
from my eyes,
819
00:44:26,205 --> 00:44:28,415
that they didn't want
people like us there."
820
00:44:28,499 --> 00:44:31,168
She's like,
"I honestly didn't expect anything else."
821
00:44:31,251 --> 00:44:35,839
"That store, everything about that store
screamed that we were an other."
822
00:44:35,923 --> 00:44:36,924
"We didn't fit there."
823
00:44:37,841 --> 00:44:39,593
[male voice]
Walk into any upscale boutique,
824
00:44:39,677 --> 00:44:43,764
and you'll see salespeople who look like
they walked off the fashion pages.
825
00:44:43,847 --> 00:44:47,476
Retailers seek out workers
whose look they feel will sell clothes.
826
00:44:47,559 --> 00:44:51,271
But can maintaining that look
become a form of racial discrimination?
827
00:44:51,355 --> 00:44:53,774
That's what the firm
of Abercrombie & Fitch
828
00:44:53,857 --> 00:44:55,025
is being accused of.
829
00:44:55,109 --> 00:44:58,904
The nine plaintiffs in this new suit
claim they were fired or not hired
830
00:44:58,987 --> 00:45:00,906
because they weren't white enough.
831
00:45:00,989 --> 00:45:02,950
When I did get scheduled,
832
00:45:03,033 --> 00:45:05,828
I would have to come in at closing time.
833
00:45:05,911 --> 00:45:11,083
I was one of the named plaintiffs
on the Abercrombie lawsuit.
834
00:45:11,166 --> 00:45:13,585
Joining me now
are two of the plaintiffs in this suit,
835
00:45:13,669 --> 00:45:15,963
Anthony Ocampo and Jennifer Lu.
836
00:45:16,046 --> 00:45:19,299
I am one of the people
that sued Abercrombie. [laughs]
837
00:45:19,383 --> 00:45:23,137
[Sheahan] We wanted to represent
the people that this had happened to
838
00:45:23,220 --> 00:45:27,891
and give them a voice and make sure
that Abercrombie was held accountable.
839
00:45:27,975 --> 00:45:29,727
All-American doesn't mean all-white.
840
00:45:29,810 --> 00:45:32,771
One of my friends, who's Mexican-American,
was working for MALDEF,
841
00:45:32,855 --> 00:45:35,441
the Mexican American Legal Defense
and Education Fund,
842
00:45:35,524 --> 00:45:37,651
and he was working for Tom Saenz,
843
00:45:37,735 --> 00:45:41,447
and it turns out
that Tom had heard other rumblings
844
00:45:41,530 --> 00:45:44,199
of people being discriminated
at Abercrombie.
845
00:45:46,076 --> 00:45:48,412
[Saenz]
In this case, I could go to the mall
846
00:45:48,495 --> 00:45:52,708
and verify what our client had told us,
and so I did that.
847
00:45:52,791 --> 00:45:55,210
I would go into the A&F store,
848
00:45:55,294 --> 00:45:58,422
and I would look at
who the retail workers were.
849
00:45:58,505 --> 00:46:00,716
And then I'd literally cross the hall
850
00:46:00,799 --> 00:46:03,218
and go to a similar retail establishment,
851
00:46:03,302 --> 00:46:05,179
whether it was Old Navy
852
00:46:05,262 --> 00:46:09,266
or Banana Republic or the Gap,
853
00:46:09,349 --> 00:46:11,602
and the contrast was just striking.
854
00:46:11,685 --> 00:46:13,103
In those other stores,
855
00:46:13,187 --> 00:46:16,774
you would see a workforce
that looked like Southern California,
856
00:46:16,857 --> 00:46:20,861
mostly young people of color
doing the retail work.
857
00:46:20,944 --> 00:46:22,196
At Abercrombie & Fitch,
858
00:46:22,279 --> 00:46:26,241
it was almost entirely
white retail workers.
859
00:46:26,325 --> 00:46:29,244
We're not talking about
a single individual who was denied a job,
860
00:46:29,328 --> 00:46:32,372
as terrible as that is
and as unlawful as that is.
861
00:46:32,456 --> 00:46:35,876
We're talking about practices
going on across the country
862
00:46:35,959 --> 00:46:39,713
at hundreds of stores
affecting thousands of students.
863
00:46:41,006 --> 00:46:45,719
It was actually difficult
to find folks who could be plaintiffs,
864
00:46:45,803 --> 00:46:48,806
and that's in part
because there were so few people of color
865
00:46:48,889 --> 00:46:51,350
who were employed by Abercrombie & Fitch.
866
00:46:51,433 --> 00:46:54,895
My younger sister text me, or called me.
867
00:46:54,978 --> 00:46:58,482
I don't think we were texting then.
I think it was way too expensive!
868
00:46:58,565 --> 00:46:59,983
But she called me and said,
869
00:47:00,067 --> 00:47:03,278
"I saw this thing on the Internet
about Abercrombie & Fitch
870
00:47:03,362 --> 00:47:05,531
in a racial discrimination lawsuit,"
871
00:47:05,614 --> 00:47:09,284
and she's like, "They definitely
racially discriminated against you!"
872
00:47:09,368 --> 00:47:11,370
[laughs] Um, "You should call them."
873
00:47:11,453 --> 00:47:16,750
I was like, "I wonder
if what happened to me was 'bad enough'."
874
00:47:16,834 --> 00:47:18,919
You know? If that's some-- Does it even--
875
00:47:19,002 --> 00:47:21,588
If I tell them,
would they just be like, "Just move on"?
876
00:47:21,672 --> 00:47:23,632
There was still that piece of,
877
00:47:23,715 --> 00:47:25,425
"It wasn't that bad,"
878
00:47:25,509 --> 00:47:28,679
um, where if you look at things
like racism
879
00:47:28,762 --> 00:47:31,223
or sexism or homophobia that…
880
00:47:31,849 --> 00:47:35,060
It does-- Things don't have to
look "that bad."
881
00:47:35,143 --> 00:47:37,062
Someone doesn't have to call you--
882
00:47:37,145 --> 00:47:40,858
Someone doesn't have to call me a nigger
in the middle of Abercrombie & Fitch
883
00:47:40,941 --> 00:47:43,610
for it to be "bad enough."
884
00:47:43,694 --> 00:47:48,615
Um, but, you know, 19-year-old Carla,
I'm thinking, "Well, I don't know."
885
00:47:48,699 --> 00:47:51,034
I've never seen racism that explicit.
886
00:47:51,118 --> 00:47:52,661
I was really pissed off.
887
00:47:52,744 --> 00:47:55,038
Like, I was enraged,
and it never went away.
888
00:47:55,122 --> 00:47:57,875
And so when I was invited
to be part of the lawsuit,
889
00:47:57,958 --> 00:47:59,042
I thought, "Oh, okay."
890
00:47:59,126 --> 00:48:04,131
"Here's an opportunity to…
to call Abercrombie on their bullshit
891
00:48:04,214 --> 00:48:06,800
of trying to say
they're an all-American brand,
892
00:48:06,884 --> 00:48:09,970
and yet the way they're maintaining
this image of all-American
893
00:48:10,053 --> 00:48:13,891
is to hire a bunch of white folks
and fire a bunch of people of color."
894
00:48:13,974 --> 00:48:17,644
[man 13] We just asked them, what was
their experience working for Abercrombie,
895
00:48:17,728 --> 00:48:20,022
attempting to apply
to work at Abercrombie,
896
00:48:20,105 --> 00:48:25,736
and themes started to emerge of this
strong, strong preference for white people
897
00:48:25,819 --> 00:48:28,989
over African Americans,
Latinos, Asian Americans,
898
00:48:29,072 --> 00:48:31,742
anybody who didn't fit
this particular look.
899
00:48:31,825 --> 00:48:36,371
I was sick of getting my schedule back
every week with lines through names.
900
00:48:36,455 --> 00:48:37,998
Essentially telling people
901
00:48:38,081 --> 00:48:39,958
they don't look good enough.
902
00:48:40,042 --> 00:48:43,837
I can't look the people that work for me
that wanna be there in the eye and say,
903
00:48:43,921 --> 00:48:47,215
you know, lie to them
and say, "Oh, we don't have hours."
904
00:48:48,550 --> 00:48:50,719
When it's because
they weren't pretty enough.
905
00:48:51,470 --> 00:48:55,098
[Barrientos] Jahan talked to us
about what Abercrombie was saying.
906
00:48:55,182 --> 00:48:58,101
It wasn't that we were being
racially discriminated against.
907
00:48:58,185 --> 00:49:01,480
It was that we weren't good-looking enough
to work on the floor.
908
00:49:01,563 --> 00:49:03,899
We're just-- just ugly! [laughs]
909
00:49:03,982 --> 00:49:05,859
It was seriously laughable. We…
910
00:49:06,401 --> 00:49:09,363
When we got together, we were like,
"Are you kidding me? What a joke."
911
00:49:09,446 --> 00:49:12,449
I guess it's better that than saying,
912
00:49:12,532 --> 00:49:14,910
"We racially discriminate
against these people."
913
00:49:15,577 --> 00:49:18,622
[laughs] But it was a joke.
It was seriously a joke.
914
00:49:23,877 --> 00:49:27,255
[Sanchez] Abercrombie got sued
in a class-action lawsuit
915
00:49:27,339 --> 00:49:29,758
for putting brown and Black people
in the back.
916
00:49:36,014 --> 00:49:37,557
Whoo!
917
00:49:37,641 --> 00:49:42,104
Abercrombie & Fitch denied the allegations
but settled-- but settled the suit.
918
00:49:42,187 --> 00:49:45,941
Abercrombie really knew
that they had a lot to hide
919
00:49:46,024 --> 00:49:48,360
and offered them
a big settlement right away.
920
00:49:48,860 --> 00:49:53,865
[Berfield] Abercrombie & Fitch
was required to pay almost $50 million
921
00:49:55,784 --> 00:49:57,160
and to make some changes.
922
00:49:59,579 --> 00:50:02,541
Abercrombie agreed
to enter into a consent decree.
923
00:50:19,933 --> 00:50:25,731
[Berfield] So Abercrombie had to create
the position of Chief Diversity Officer.
924
00:50:27,315 --> 00:50:28,859
On one hand, like, great opportunity
925
00:50:28,942 --> 00:50:32,571
to take a company, you know,
that really needs you.
926
00:50:32,654 --> 00:50:34,156
[laughs]
927
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:36,408
"Do they want you?" is the other question.
928
00:50:39,703 --> 00:50:43,540
I got a call from a search firm.
"Listen, there's an opportunity in Ohio."
929
00:50:43,623 --> 00:50:46,460
"It's a brand called A&F."
I said, "I don't know what that is."
930
00:50:46,543 --> 00:50:48,754
So I went to the mall
and tried to figure it out.
931
00:50:48,837 --> 00:50:52,424
I walked around, I shopped and I looked,
and I said, "Oh. It's different."
932
00:50:55,802 --> 00:50:57,554
I began to figure out what it was about,
933
00:50:57,637 --> 00:50:59,765
which was figuring out
how to reinvent a brand
934
00:50:59,848 --> 00:51:04,269
from the perspective of D&I,
which at the time was not a function.
935
00:51:04,352 --> 00:51:07,064
There was not an office, not a discipline.
There was no muscle.
936
00:51:07,147 --> 00:51:08,982
I had to figure out
how to put it all together.
937
00:51:09,066 --> 00:51:11,234
I said,
"Well, you've been praying to God."
938
00:51:11,318 --> 00:51:12,986
"You've been saying
you need something big."
939
00:51:13,070 --> 00:51:15,864
"I guess he's telling you right now,
this is probably it."
940
00:51:17,866 --> 00:51:20,619
So I asked about
the reporting relationship,
941
00:51:20,702 --> 00:51:22,913
which was the biggest thing
for me to figure out,
942
00:51:22,996 --> 00:51:25,707
and I knew that it would be
to the CEO and chairman.
943
00:51:28,293 --> 00:51:30,337
The work there had inherent challenges.
944
00:51:30,420 --> 00:51:33,090
I had to figure out
how to navigate a lot of them.
945
00:51:33,173 --> 00:51:35,008
Some of the challenges were around,
946
00:51:35,092 --> 00:51:40,055
"How do you create a brand
with fewer contradictions?"
947
00:51:49,189 --> 00:51:52,192
We approach people every day
with our inclusive mindset
948
00:51:52,275 --> 00:51:53,860
that embraces our diversity.
949
00:51:53,944 --> 00:51:56,404
-Come work with me in New York.
-Arizona.
950
00:51:56,488 --> 00:51:57,531
-Florida.
-Belgium.
951
00:51:57,614 --> 00:51:58,824
-Spain.
-Hong Kong.
952
00:51:58,907 --> 00:52:00,158
-Germany.
-[in unison] The UK.
953
00:52:04,079 --> 00:52:07,666
Someone like myself going into
those circumstances and situations,
954
00:52:07,749 --> 00:52:08,834
you understand, like,
955
00:52:09,835 --> 00:52:12,629
maybe this is a form of "tokenism."
956
00:52:13,213 --> 00:52:19,261
Now, you could either say,
"No way am I going to be a part of that,"
957
00:52:19,344 --> 00:52:23,598
or you can look at it as an opportunity
958
00:52:23,682 --> 00:52:26,977
and then open that door even wider
for people like yourself
959
00:52:27,060 --> 00:52:31,815
and others who haven't necessarily had
that sort of access or opportunity.
960
00:52:32,482 --> 00:52:35,485
[Sanchez] I was a recruiter for a couple
years, developing relationships
961
00:52:35,569 --> 00:52:38,613
on historically Black colleges
and universities.
962
00:52:39,114 --> 00:52:42,617
As a brown man
who very much appears to be white,
963
00:52:42,701 --> 00:52:44,411
wearing all Abercrombie & Fitch,
964
00:52:44,494 --> 00:52:48,373
'cause that's what
we're required to do on campus, you're--
965
00:52:48,456 --> 00:52:52,377
At first, you're getting some dirty looks,
and rightfully so.
966
00:52:52,460 --> 00:52:53,795
When I walked in,
967
00:52:54,963 --> 00:52:57,340
I think 90% of their population was white.
968
00:52:57,924 --> 00:52:59,384
By year five or six,
969
00:52:59,467 --> 00:53:03,221
population went above 53% non-white.
970
00:53:05,891 --> 00:53:10,187
When I transitioned over
to my role in Diversity & Inclusion,
971
00:53:10,770 --> 00:53:16,109
my first meeting
where I was with the store's leadership,
972
00:53:16,193 --> 00:53:19,654
and they were talking about
what we wanted in the stores,
973
00:53:20,238 --> 00:53:25,076
the free, sort of, free flow
of how we talked about beauty
974
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:27,454
and who was good-looking,
who was not good-looking,
975
00:53:27,537 --> 00:53:29,331
or that person's nose was this or that,
976
00:53:29,414 --> 00:53:32,417
I was like, "I can't believe
we literally talk about people
977
00:53:32,500 --> 00:53:35,212
and dissect people's features like this."
978
00:53:35,295 --> 00:53:39,341
Or, like, it would be written
in a, you know, like, the interview,
979
00:53:39,424 --> 00:53:41,009
like, "Nope," like…
980
00:53:41,092 --> 00:53:44,387
It was just-- I couldn't believe it,
to be honest with you. I was shocked.
981
00:53:44,971 --> 00:53:47,057
[Tkacik] Brand reps
were no longer called "brand reps."
982
00:53:47,140 --> 00:53:50,810
They were called either "impact,"
and that meant that you went to the back,
983
00:53:50,894 --> 00:53:54,314
or "model,"
and that meant you could be up front.
984
00:53:54,397 --> 00:53:56,483
I think that, like, the idea was that
985
00:53:56,566 --> 00:54:00,654
calling their minimum wage
retail employees "models,"
986
00:54:00,737 --> 00:54:03,949
you know, Abercrombie could
get away with anything
987
00:54:04,032 --> 00:54:06,243
that a modeling agency
could get away with.
988
00:54:06,326 --> 00:54:10,830
They never put it in words that they were
to be good-looking post-consent decree,
989
00:54:10,914 --> 00:54:15,418
and I think they were more careful
about not necessarily using that word,
990
00:54:15,502 --> 00:54:17,045
but they took care of it
991
00:54:17,128 --> 00:54:20,882
when they got it approved with
the consent decree to call them models.
992
00:54:21,383 --> 00:54:25,220
You took care of it.
Like, nothin' changed as far as that went.
993
00:54:25,303 --> 00:54:28,014
[producer] So, what if an ugly person
applied to be a model?
994
00:54:28,098 --> 00:54:28,974
They interviewed.
995
00:54:30,141 --> 00:54:33,520
They went through the same interview
process that the other folks went through.
996
00:54:34,020 --> 00:54:36,231
[producer] But does that mean
they had just as little shot
997
00:54:36,314 --> 00:54:38,316
pre- and post-consent decree
of getting a job?
998
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:39,234
Oh yeah.
999
00:54:39,943 --> 00:54:40,777
Yeah.
1000
00:54:42,404 --> 00:54:46,199
[Tkacik] The consent decree did not force
leadership to change at all.
1001
00:54:46,283 --> 00:54:49,703
The entire leadership structure
remained in place.
1002
00:54:49,786 --> 00:54:53,581
At that point, Jeffries still had
almost 10% of the stock.
1003
00:54:53,665 --> 00:54:56,876
Um, so nothing, nothing changed at all.
1004
00:54:58,378 --> 00:55:01,006
A lot of these things
come from the top down.
1005
00:55:02,048 --> 00:55:04,718
Between Jeffries and Bruce Weber,
1006
00:55:04,801 --> 00:55:08,346
we have some really troubling behavior.
1007
00:55:15,979 --> 00:55:18,481
Bruce Weber was able
to take advantage of his power more
1008
00:55:18,565 --> 00:55:20,817
because he was so infamous
and so out there.
1009
00:55:20,900 --> 00:55:22,736
It was very well known with Bruce
1010
00:55:22,819 --> 00:55:24,779
that he… liked…
1011
00:55:26,072 --> 00:55:26,990
young men.
1012
00:55:27,490 --> 00:55:30,785
He's gonna invite you over
and try his "good touch, bad touch" thing.
1013
00:55:30,869 --> 00:55:31,786
You would
1014
00:55:32,871 --> 00:55:34,164
put your hand on your chest,
1015
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:39,294
and he'd put his hand on your hand,
kind of like talking to relax.
1016
00:55:39,377 --> 00:55:42,922
And then it was,
"I'm gonna lower your hand."
1017
00:55:43,006 --> 00:55:45,300
"Tell me when to stop."
1018
00:55:45,383 --> 00:55:47,218
My hand didn't move. [laughs]
1019
00:55:47,302 --> 00:55:48,511
So he's like-- he's like,
1020
00:55:48,595 --> 00:55:51,014
"No, we're gonna lower your hand,
and then when I--"
1021
00:55:51,097 --> 00:55:53,975
And I'm like, "No, that's…
We're just… We're good."
1022
00:55:54,059 --> 00:55:57,562
There was a guy
that would get a call from Bruce.
1023
00:55:57,645 --> 00:55:59,898
He would get invited
to come over for dinner.
1024
00:56:00,648 --> 00:56:03,360
Like, "Hey, you should come over.
I'm gonna have dinner."
1025
00:56:03,443 --> 00:56:05,195
"Play with my dogs." Blah, blah, blah.
1026
00:56:05,278 --> 00:56:08,031
Then they'd go over,
and I would not see them the next day.
1027
00:56:08,531 --> 00:56:11,284
It was day three, and all of a sudden,
like, the phone rings,
1028
00:56:11,368 --> 00:56:14,913
and I'm like, "Oh, I know what that is."
1029
00:56:14,996 --> 00:56:20,043
"Hey, Bobby. So I'm sending you a car
to come over for dinner."
1030
00:56:20,126 --> 00:56:24,672
And at this moment, the moment is like,
I'm gonna go home or not.
1031
00:56:24,756 --> 00:56:27,008
"Yeah, so I'm not gonna be able
to make it."
1032
00:56:27,092 --> 00:56:30,053
And he's like, "What? No, you have
to come. It's great for your career."
1033
00:56:30,136 --> 00:56:33,515
So I'm like, "No, I'm cool, Bruce,
but thank you very much."
1034
00:56:33,598 --> 00:56:36,434
And all of a sudden,
my phone rings in probably one minute.
1035
00:56:36,518 --> 00:56:39,979
Let's say less than two minutes,
it rang again. I was like, "What?"
1036
00:56:40,063 --> 00:56:42,190
And I pick it up,
and he's like, "Hey, Bobby."
1037
00:56:42,273 --> 00:56:45,568
"Unfortunately, you're gonna be cut,
and your flight's ready."
1038
00:56:45,652 --> 00:56:49,739
"And your bags… Get your bags ready.
And then you have a flight tonight."
1039
00:56:49,823 --> 00:56:52,575
It was just like,
in that instant, I was done.
1040
00:56:54,786 --> 00:56:56,538
[Daharsh] And then you had
Michael Jeffries.
1041
00:56:57,414 --> 00:57:01,126
And it was like he was just there
to have fun on the shoots.
1042
00:57:02,335 --> 00:57:04,712
He-- he very clearly
was into young men too.
1043
00:57:05,296 --> 00:57:08,049
But he was just so weird that--
Who knows what the fuck--
1044
00:57:08,133 --> 00:57:10,218
I don't know what that dude was into.
1045
00:57:10,301 --> 00:57:12,554
It seemed like
they were always implementing,
1046
00:57:13,054 --> 00:57:15,014
like, a new step to the process.
1047
00:57:15,974 --> 00:57:20,979
One of which was
you had to go into, like, this tent
1048
00:57:21,062 --> 00:57:22,564
that was closed off,
1049
00:57:22,647 --> 00:57:26,401
and it was just Bruce, Bruce Weber,
and Michael Jeffries in there.
1050
00:57:27,110 --> 00:57:32,449
Literally, it was an interview for them
to see if they liked your personality,
1051
00:57:32,532 --> 00:57:34,784
who you were,
and what you brought to the table.
1052
00:57:36,077 --> 00:57:40,707
[Berfield] When he ran Abercrombie,
he always sold clothes to women and girls,
1053
00:57:40,790 --> 00:57:44,294
but what I think most people saw
1054
00:57:44,377 --> 00:57:46,421
and, you know, responded to
1055
00:57:46,504 --> 00:57:48,882
was the male image and the male form.
1056
00:57:49,841 --> 00:57:52,594
[Tkacik] I don't even think Mike realized
1057
00:57:52,677 --> 00:57:55,472
that he was also a gay icon.
1058
00:57:56,681 --> 00:58:00,685
It was known or presumed that he was gay,
1059
00:58:01,269 --> 00:58:03,938
but he was very secretive
about his personal life.
1060
00:58:06,191 --> 00:58:08,651
In the early 2000s,
1061
00:58:08,735 --> 00:58:12,197
Mike Jeffries was
still very much closeted.
1062
00:58:13,448 --> 00:58:16,534
[Berfield] Jeffries had been married,
had a son.
1063
00:58:16,618 --> 00:58:18,620
[Tkacik] His wife was mostly
out of the picture,
1064
00:58:18,703 --> 00:58:21,831
and eventually
his life partner, Matthew Smith,
1065
00:58:21,915 --> 00:58:24,501
sort of came on within the company.
1066
00:58:24,584 --> 00:58:29,589
There's a lot that was probably going on
internally with Mike Jeffries
1067
00:58:29,672 --> 00:58:33,009
that very few people
would have been privy to.
1068
00:58:34,385 --> 00:58:38,097
[Abadsidis] He was out of control.
I mean, it was really out of control.
1069
00:58:38,181 --> 00:58:41,893
It was like he had
a bunch of terrible plastic surgeries.
1070
00:58:42,644 --> 00:58:44,062
He wanted to be young.
1071
00:58:44,729 --> 00:58:47,440
He was chasing youth, too, you know?
It's an old story.
1072
00:58:49,526 --> 00:58:52,612
I was fascinated by Mike.
I was fascinated by the company.
1073
00:58:52,695 --> 00:58:59,410
And Mike was just this strange,
bizarre, interesting man.
1074
00:59:00,203 --> 00:59:02,622
I desperately wanted
to write about the company.
1075
00:59:02,705 --> 00:59:04,958
I desperately wanted
to get to their headquarters.
1076
00:59:05,041 --> 00:59:06,042
They called it Campus.
1077
00:59:10,129 --> 00:59:13,967
Then one day, I get a call from an editor
at The New York Times Magazine,
1078
00:59:14,050 --> 00:59:15,969
where I had been writing for a few years,
1079
00:59:16,052 --> 00:59:19,472
and they say, "Do you wanna do a story
about Abercrombie & Fitch?"
1080
00:59:20,056 --> 00:59:23,393
I said, "Absolutely, I'd like to do
this story. How did you get access?"
1081
00:59:23,476 --> 00:59:24,852
They said, "They invited us."
1082
00:59:25,603 --> 00:59:26,854
It's still a question to me
1083
00:59:26,938 --> 00:59:29,274
about why Mike had rejected so many offers
1084
00:59:29,357 --> 00:59:32,735
to write about his brand,
but suddenly I was there.
1085
00:59:34,821 --> 00:59:38,324
He talked about it.
He said, "This is a diva-free zone."
1086
00:59:38,825 --> 00:59:40,201
In a way, he was the diva.
1087
00:59:40,285 --> 00:59:42,787
He was making all of the decisions.
1088
00:59:43,454 --> 00:59:45,873
They had model stores on the campus.
1089
00:59:45,957 --> 00:59:47,292
I watched him walk through
1090
00:59:47,375 --> 00:59:51,796
and obsessively look at how the jeans fell
on every mannequin.
1091
00:59:53,047 --> 00:59:54,507
Going through the store with him
1092
00:59:54,591 --> 01:00:00,930
was revealing of his very clear,
sort of traditional sense
1093
01:00:01,014 --> 01:00:03,016
of masculinity and femininity.
1094
01:00:03,099 --> 01:00:06,311
Saying things like, "We need
to make this dude look more like a dude."
1095
01:00:06,394 --> 01:00:10,064
Uh, for the mannequin,
"We don't want her to look too butch."
1096
01:00:10,148 --> 01:00:11,608
That's exactly what he said.
1097
01:00:12,150 --> 01:00:17,655
He was going through
the racks of Abercrombie girls.
1098
01:00:17,739 --> 01:00:19,782
He picked up a pair of corduroys
1099
01:00:19,866 --> 01:00:22,785
that, I guess to him,
seemed too masculine.
1100
01:00:22,869 --> 01:00:25,913
He said, "Who the fuck
are you designing for?"
1101
01:00:25,997 --> 01:00:27,749
"Dykes on trikes?"
1102
01:00:27,832 --> 01:00:33,296
That language had, um…
went a little beyond, um…
1103
01:00:33,379 --> 01:00:36,007
what was usually implicit,
and became explicit,
1104
01:00:36,090 --> 01:00:40,345
which is that we're not just
designing for men and women,
1105
01:00:40,428 --> 01:00:41,346
girls and boys.
1106
01:00:41,429 --> 01:00:44,932
We're designing
for sexy women and sexy men,
1107
01:00:45,016 --> 01:00:47,685
and sexy girls and sexy boys,
1108
01:00:47,769 --> 01:00:49,771
and sexy meant hetero sexy,
1109
01:00:49,854 --> 01:00:52,231
not "dykes."
1110
01:00:52,315 --> 01:00:55,526
I was really interested
in psychoanalyzing him. [laughs]
1111
01:00:55,610 --> 01:00:58,529
Like, I mean, I wanted to figure out
1112
01:00:59,697 --> 01:01:00,865
who this guy was.
1113
01:01:01,741 --> 01:01:04,535
So I asked him about
all the high-profile controversies,
1114
01:01:04,619 --> 01:01:05,995
the lawsuits,
1115
01:01:06,579 --> 01:01:09,207
and he got incredibly defensive.
1116
01:01:09,290 --> 01:01:11,793
And he ended up saying things that were,
1117
01:01:11,876 --> 01:01:14,379
like, too… too honest.
1118
01:01:14,462 --> 01:01:16,089
[no audio]
1119
01:01:16,172 --> 01:01:19,092
[Denizet-Lewis] He said,
"Are we exclusionary? Absolutely."
1120
01:01:19,175 --> 01:01:22,136
He said,
"Not everyone can wear our clothes."
1121
01:01:22,220 --> 01:01:24,806
"I don't want everyone,"
essentially, "wearing our clothes."
1122
01:01:24,889 --> 01:01:27,558
He talked about going after the cool kids.
1123
01:01:27,642 --> 01:01:31,771
He talked about, and again,
this word, the all-American, um, cool kid.
1124
01:01:31,854 --> 01:01:35,483
He sort of fetishized
the all-American boy.
1125
01:01:35,983 --> 01:01:38,736
I mean,
he's not the only person in fashion
1126
01:01:38,820 --> 01:01:41,698
who believed these things,
1127
01:01:41,781 --> 01:01:45,952
but he was the only person,
seemingly, who would say that out loud.
1128
01:01:46,035 --> 01:01:49,455
Two days later,
when I left Ohio, I got an email
1129
01:01:49,539 --> 01:01:53,209
that they were pulling their participation
from the story.
1130
01:01:53,292 --> 01:01:56,587
Which meant, for me, the story was dead
for The New York Times Magazine.
1131
01:01:56,671 --> 01:01:58,673
And I wrote the piece for Salon.
1132
01:01:59,757 --> 01:02:03,010
You know, the piece, when it came out,
got a little bit of attention
1133
01:02:03,094 --> 01:02:08,224
as a profile of this quirky,
highly successful fashion CEO.
1134
01:02:08,307 --> 01:02:10,101
So, in 2006,
1135
01:02:10,184 --> 01:02:13,438
to openly say that
"We're an exclusionary brand"
1136
01:02:13,521 --> 01:02:17,483
apparently was not out of the realm
of things that people would say.
1137
01:02:17,567 --> 01:02:20,027
What makes Abercrombie unique for me
1138
01:02:20,111 --> 01:02:22,488
is that they were unapologetic about it.
1139
01:02:22,572 --> 01:02:24,198
They really went out there.
1140
01:02:24,282 --> 01:02:25,825
They hired certain people.
1141
01:02:25,908 --> 01:02:29,412
They wanted a certain look.
The ads looked a certain way.
1142
01:02:29,495 --> 01:02:31,080
And there wasn't this idea
1143
01:02:31,164 --> 01:02:34,625
that we need to come to the table
around diversity and inclusion
1144
01:02:34,709 --> 01:02:37,712
and make sure
that everyone feels represented.
1145
01:02:37,795 --> 01:02:39,881
They doubled down on being exclusionary.
1146
01:02:39,964 --> 01:02:43,092
They doubled down on saying,
"This is a lifestyle that we're selling."
1147
01:02:43,176 --> 01:02:48,014
"We want our store representatives
to look like the models in our ads."
1148
01:02:48,097 --> 01:02:51,517
"We want this lifestyle
to be associated with us."
1149
01:02:51,601 --> 01:02:56,355
"We're not dissociating
from being discriminating in our taste,
1150
01:02:56,439 --> 01:02:57,356
in our aesthetics."
1151
01:03:01,778 --> 01:03:04,697
One of the reasons
that I didn't wear Abercrombie,
1152
01:03:04,781 --> 01:03:07,200
besides it being incredibly expensive,
1153
01:03:07,283 --> 01:03:09,076
was because I-- I literally couldn't.
1154
01:03:09,160 --> 01:03:10,995
I was the fat, gay, poor kid.
1155
01:03:11,078 --> 01:03:13,539
Pretty much, like, the bullying trifecta.
1156
01:03:13,623 --> 01:03:17,585
So one night I was up late,
and I was just scrolling the Internet.
1157
01:03:17,668 --> 01:03:19,629
The Internet
wasn't as impressive back then.
1158
01:03:19,712 --> 01:03:22,381
It was mostly news.
And I came across this article.
1159
01:03:22,465 --> 01:03:24,842
It was about Mike Jeffries.
I had never heard of him.
1160
01:03:24,926 --> 01:03:26,886
And I read this quote. It says,
1161
01:03:26,969 --> 01:03:31,974
"In every school, there are the cool kids,
and then there are the not-so-cool kids."
1162
01:03:32,058 --> 01:03:34,936
"Candidly, we go after the cool kids."
1163
01:03:35,019 --> 01:03:38,981
"We go after the attractive,
all-American kid with a lot of friends."
1164
01:03:39,065 --> 01:03:40,483
"Are we exclusionary?"
1165
01:03:41,192 --> 01:03:42,485
"Absolutely."
1166
01:03:42,568 --> 01:03:45,530
I found out
that it was actually seven years old.
1167
01:03:45,613 --> 01:03:48,157
That this man had said this
seven years ago,
1168
01:03:48,241 --> 01:03:49,742
and no one did anything about it.
1169
01:03:50,576 --> 01:03:53,996
Someone who had so much power.
Right? Because that's the thing.
1170
01:03:54,080 --> 01:03:56,666
He wasn't just
the CEO of a clothing company.
1171
01:03:57,166 --> 01:03:58,668
He was a creator of cool.
1172
01:04:00,586 --> 01:04:04,215
And so I start this petition
asking Abercrombie & Fitch to apologize
1173
01:04:04,298 --> 01:04:06,801
and to start making plus sizes.
1174
01:04:07,677 --> 01:04:10,680
And eventually, I create a press list,
200 names on it,
1175
01:04:10,763 --> 01:04:13,850
and I send this press release out
to hundreds of people.
1176
01:04:14,350 --> 01:04:15,434
And I go to sleep.
1177
01:04:16,185 --> 01:04:18,145
An interview from, get this, 2006
1178
01:04:18,229 --> 01:04:21,983
with Abercrombie & Fitch CEO Mike Jeffries
has gone viral.
1179
01:04:22,483 --> 01:04:25,653
[reporter 1] If you're looking for
a women's extra-large blouse,
1180
01:04:25,736 --> 01:04:26,612
you're out of luck.
1181
01:04:26,696 --> 01:04:29,949
The trendy retailer CEO
doesn't want your business.
1182
01:04:30,032 --> 01:04:31,367
[reporter 2] He's crossing a line.
1183
01:04:31,450 --> 01:04:33,661
He's crossed the line,
like, a billion times.
1184
01:04:33,744 --> 01:04:35,454
Stop shopping at Abercrombie & Fitch.
1185
01:04:35,538 --> 01:04:37,498
They actually said, "Fat chicks."
1186
01:04:38,374 --> 01:04:41,377
[Tkacik] It shows up on Twitter,
and suddenly it goes viral,
1187
01:04:41,460 --> 01:04:45,715
and there's this huge campaign
to oust Mike Jeffries.
1188
01:04:46,340 --> 01:04:48,175
Bitch! Your ass would do some good
1189
01:04:48,259 --> 01:04:50,803
if Kim Kardashian could squeeze
her big butt into your clothes.
1190
01:04:50,887 --> 01:04:53,973
This guy is not attractive.
He's an old hag.
1191
01:04:54,056 --> 01:04:56,475
Abercrombie & Fitch
is one of the most racist places
1192
01:04:56,559 --> 01:04:57,602
I've ever been to.
1193
01:04:57,685 --> 01:04:59,478
They suck inside and out.
1194
01:04:59,562 --> 01:05:01,647
And their clothes are overpriced.
1195
01:05:01,731 --> 01:05:04,817
Regardless of whether
your T-shirts fit these tits,
1196
01:05:05,610 --> 01:05:07,194
I'm not gonna shop in your store.
1197
01:05:07,278 --> 01:05:09,697
[reporter 3] He says that if companies
try to target all sizes,
1198
01:05:09,780 --> 01:05:10,740
they end up in trouble,
1199
01:05:10,823 --> 01:05:13,159
and if you don't alienate anyone,
you don't excite anyone.
1200
01:05:13,659 --> 01:05:16,037
-Let's take a look at him again.
-[both laughing]
1201
01:05:17,455 --> 01:05:21,709
[girl] If you're judging someone on
how cool they are just by looking at them,
1202
01:05:21,792 --> 01:05:24,003
and if you're hiring
only good-looking people,
1203
01:05:24,086 --> 01:05:25,630
how about hiring good workers?
1204
01:05:26,255 --> 01:05:29,133
[Denizet-Lewis] I interviewed a girl
who had led one of the boycotts,
1205
01:05:29,216 --> 01:05:33,304
and she said, "Abercrombie has
the biggest impact on people my age."
1206
01:05:33,387 --> 01:05:36,807
Girls think that
they need to be incredibly thin.
1207
01:05:36,891 --> 01:05:40,770
Boys think they need to be
this-- this sort of jacked image
1208
01:05:40,853 --> 01:05:44,273
that they see when they walk in the stores
and on their advertisements.
1209
01:05:44,357 --> 01:05:47,610
She said to me that
there was no brand for her and her friends
1210
01:05:47,693 --> 01:05:49,195
that was more influential.
1211
01:05:49,278 --> 01:05:51,489
In high school, I suffered with anorexia,
1212
01:05:51,572 --> 01:05:54,909
and so I knew
just how harmful that words like that
1213
01:05:54,992 --> 01:05:57,828
and rhetoric like that could be
on the psyche of young people.
1214
01:05:57,912 --> 01:06:00,665
And that's who
they were talking to, right?
1215
01:06:00,748 --> 01:06:02,750
That's who their consumers were.
1216
01:06:02,833 --> 01:06:06,045
They were telling young people
that if they didn't look a certain way,
1217
01:06:06,128 --> 01:06:08,172
if they weren't a certain type of person,
1218
01:06:08,255 --> 01:06:10,466
that they didn't belong in their clothing.
1219
01:06:10,549 --> 01:06:13,511
This was weeks and weeks and weeks
1220
01:06:13,594 --> 01:06:15,972
that people were talking about this,
covering this.
1221
01:06:16,055 --> 01:06:18,474
That's when we get the call
from Abercrombie & Fitch
1222
01:06:18,557 --> 01:06:21,602
saying, like,
"Hey, do you wanna come to Ohio
1223
01:06:21,686 --> 01:06:23,771
and, you know, help us out?"
1224
01:06:23,854 --> 01:06:25,648
"Help us see if we can work past this."
1225
01:06:25,731 --> 01:06:28,234
"See if we can
come to some kind of agreement."
1226
01:06:28,317 --> 01:06:32,488
It's myself, the CEO of
the National Eating Disorders Association,
1227
01:06:32,571 --> 01:06:34,323
a campaigner from Change.org,
1228
01:06:34,407 --> 01:06:37,535
and two other
sort of eating disorders professionals.
1229
01:06:37,618 --> 01:06:42,415
And I went on to talk to them
about not just size-based discrimination,
1230
01:06:42,498 --> 01:06:43,708
why discrimination is bad.
1231
01:06:43,791 --> 01:06:48,170
I talked to them about why it was
actually just a stupid business decision.
1232
01:06:48,254 --> 01:06:52,842
When 60% of your consumer base
is wearing these plus sizes,
1233
01:06:52,925 --> 01:06:54,510
why aren't you embracing them?
1234
01:06:55,011 --> 01:06:56,595
[O'Keefe] And then the team comes in,
1235
01:06:56,679 --> 01:07:00,725
and they're smiling,
and they're bubbly, and they're white,
1236
01:07:00,808 --> 01:07:02,268
except for one person,
1237
01:07:02,351 --> 01:07:04,937
the Chief Diversity Officer.
1238
01:07:05,021 --> 01:07:06,564
Of course, he was a Black man.
1239
01:07:06,647 --> 01:07:08,733
[producer] "We go after the cool kids."
1240
01:07:09,316 --> 01:07:11,777
What did you think when Mike said that?
1241
01:07:12,486 --> 01:07:13,863
Um…
1242
01:07:13,946 --> 01:07:15,865
I have to respectfully decline on that.
1243
01:07:15,948 --> 01:07:20,995
You-- you would not be wrong
about how you think I felt about that.
1244
01:07:21,078 --> 01:07:22,038
I mean…
1245
01:07:22,121 --> 01:07:25,166
So we're sitting at this board table,
this long boardroom table,
1246
01:07:25,249 --> 01:07:29,211
and I say, "Wait a minute.
Where's Mike? Where's Mike Jeffries?"
1247
01:07:29,295 --> 01:07:32,006
Mike Jeffries did not show up
to the meeting.
1248
01:07:32,798 --> 01:07:37,595
And so I start taking out stacks
of our 2,000 pages of petitions.
1249
01:07:37,678 --> 01:07:39,847
He had a box of stuff.
Like, what's the box for?
1250
01:07:40,347 --> 01:07:44,852
And I plop them down
in front of each executive dramatically,
1251
01:07:44,935 --> 01:07:45,853
really dramatically.
1252
01:07:45,936 --> 01:07:46,937
And I said…
1253
01:07:48,230 --> 01:07:51,150
"Each one of these piles of petitions
1254
01:07:51,233 --> 01:07:53,611
represents thousands of people
1255
01:07:53,694 --> 01:07:56,489
who are against
what you are doing as a brand."
1256
01:07:56,572 --> 01:07:59,408
Their Chief Diversity Officer
looked pretty offended.
1257
01:07:59,492 --> 01:08:00,951
He pulled out this little book.
1258
01:08:01,035 --> 01:08:05,831
He tried to explain to me how, actually,
they were an incredibly diverse company,
1259
01:08:05,915 --> 01:08:08,959
and all of the great things
that they had done for diversity
1260
01:08:09,043 --> 01:08:11,045
in their stores since he had come on.
1261
01:08:11,128 --> 01:08:12,463
And so he hands me this book,
1262
01:08:12,546 --> 01:08:15,382
and I sort of look at it,
and I throw it back at him.
1263
01:08:15,466 --> 01:08:17,426
"So this means nothing.
Look in this room."
1264
01:08:17,510 --> 01:08:19,303
"You're the only person of color here."
1265
01:08:19,386 --> 01:08:23,474
The higher up you go,
the older it gets and the whiter it gets.
1266
01:08:23,557 --> 01:08:25,935
These people were there very early on.
1267
01:08:26,018 --> 01:08:29,563
They're telling you who looks Abercrombie.
1268
01:08:31,190 --> 01:08:34,276
[Givhan] Yeah, you've got
the numbers at the store level,
1269
01:08:34,360 --> 01:08:37,571
but what about
at the vice president level,
1270
01:08:37,655 --> 01:08:41,951
and what about the people
who sit on your board of directors?
1271
01:08:42,034 --> 01:08:44,787
That becomes a question of the system,
1272
01:08:44,870 --> 01:08:48,165
and that becomes one
that's much more challenging.
1273
01:08:48,249 --> 01:08:50,668
It's not something that can be fixed
1274
01:08:50,751 --> 01:08:54,463
with a hiring binge, you know,
over the course of a year.
1275
01:08:54,547 --> 01:08:57,007
Upper management stayed white.
1276
01:08:57,091 --> 01:09:00,177
Most of the concerns in the decree
were from the store side.
1277
01:09:00,261 --> 01:09:03,514
[Corley] I mean, again,
they were 90% of your employee population.
1278
01:09:03,597 --> 01:09:05,724
So that was largely what we focused on.
1279
01:09:06,684 --> 01:09:12,148
You could call it a-- a glass ceiling
for all people of color.
1280
01:09:12,231 --> 01:09:16,402
You go to the office,
you see the new crop of regional managers,
1281
01:09:16,485 --> 01:09:18,696
was like, "Anybody? Anybody?"
1282
01:09:18,779 --> 01:09:19,780
"Okay, no."
1283
01:09:20,364 --> 01:09:24,118
I would be doing all the managers of color
that I worked with over the years
1284
01:09:24,201 --> 01:09:27,121
that I truly appreciated a disservice
1285
01:09:27,204 --> 01:09:28,956
if I didn't at least say that
1286
01:09:29,832 --> 01:09:32,334
it wasn't not racist.
1287
01:09:33,669 --> 01:09:35,379
[producer laughs] "It wasn't not racist"!
1288
01:09:35,462 --> 01:09:36,338
[both laugh]
1289
01:09:36,422 --> 01:09:41,719
I think the real evidence
of the leadership commitment came to light
1290
01:09:41,802 --> 01:09:43,387
when the consent decree ended.
1291
01:09:43,470 --> 01:09:47,766
They definitely improved
a great deal on the surface.
1292
01:09:47,850 --> 01:09:51,604
But they didn't get anywhere close
to what they sort of promised they would,
1293
01:09:51,687 --> 01:09:54,982
and none of this was binding,
and that's the-- that's the big problem.
1294
01:10:07,745 --> 01:10:09,413
[Spencer] When the consent decree ended,
1295
01:10:09,496 --> 01:10:12,958
you started to see
what you call "the fatigue."
1296
01:10:13,042 --> 01:10:15,127
Right? People were like… [sighs]
1297
01:10:15,628 --> 01:10:17,546
Then you start experiencing
the resistance.
1298
01:10:17,630 --> 01:10:19,131
"Do we really have to do this?"
1299
01:10:19,215 --> 01:10:22,176
"Do we really need to allocate
this much money to that?" Right?
1300
01:10:22,259 --> 01:10:23,219
And so…
1301
01:10:24,511 --> 01:10:26,013
were we really committed?
1302
01:10:26,680 --> 01:10:27,640
Or not?
1303
01:10:27,723 --> 01:10:29,850
I've been in Todd's seat.
1304
01:10:29,934 --> 01:10:31,977
That is an incredibly tough place to be
1305
01:10:32,061 --> 01:10:35,439
that we put marginalized people in
all the time.
1306
01:10:35,522 --> 01:10:38,234
And we say, "Okay, fix all the problems."
1307
01:10:38,317 --> 01:10:42,780
He was set up to fail,
and I think that's why he ultimately left.
1308
01:10:43,739 --> 01:10:47,576
Well, I've always been cautious
about how I talk about my experience
1309
01:10:47,660 --> 01:10:48,911
'cause when I left,
1310
01:10:48,994 --> 01:10:52,665
I mean, uh, the place doesn't look
like it did when I inherited it.
1311
01:10:52,748 --> 01:10:54,041
And if nothing else,
1312
01:10:54,792 --> 01:10:56,252
that, to me, is success.
1313
01:11:01,048 --> 01:11:02,049
Okay.
1314
01:11:07,846 --> 01:11:09,390
I'm Samantha Elauf.
1315
01:11:10,057 --> 01:11:12,476
I was born and raised in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
1316
01:11:12,977 --> 01:11:16,021
So I was applying for Abercrombie & Fitch.
1317
01:11:16,105 --> 01:11:18,899
There was one question that they asked,
which is funny now,
1318
01:11:18,983 --> 01:11:20,985
but as a minority, it stood out to me,
1319
01:11:21,068 --> 01:11:23,737
and it was,
"What does diversity mean to you?"
1320
01:11:24,321 --> 01:11:27,157
So I was like,
"Okay, I'll fit in perfect."
1321
01:11:27,241 --> 01:11:29,451
At the interview,
I was also wearing jeans.
1322
01:11:29,535 --> 01:11:31,287
I think I was wearing a white basic,
1323
01:11:31,370 --> 01:11:34,373
and I was wearing a black scarf,
traditionally worn.
1324
01:11:35,040 --> 01:11:37,209
After the interview,
she told me she'd let me know
1325
01:11:37,293 --> 01:11:38,627
when to come in for orientation.
1326
01:11:39,586 --> 01:11:42,131
And I remember
my friend messaging me and being like,
1327
01:11:42,214 --> 01:11:44,842
"Did my manager call you yet?
When's your orientation?"
1328
01:11:44,925 --> 01:11:48,345
I was like, "She hasn't called me yet,"
and she's like, "I will ask her."
1329
01:11:49,305 --> 01:11:52,683
Whenever she asked the manager,
the manager was acting very strange.
1330
01:11:53,559 --> 01:11:56,312
After she interviewed me,
she called the district manager
1331
01:11:56,395 --> 01:11:58,355
because I was wearing a black headscarf.
1332
01:11:58,856 --> 01:12:01,567
At the time, they had a no-black policy.
1333
01:12:02,234 --> 01:12:05,779
He told her, "It doesn't matter
what color she wore. She can't work here."
1334
01:12:07,781 --> 01:12:08,949
I didn't know what to think.
1335
01:12:09,033 --> 01:12:11,452
That was the first time
anything had happened to me like that.
1336
01:12:11,535 --> 01:12:13,871
Soon after,
I was at my mom's friend's house,
1337
01:12:13,954 --> 01:12:16,206
and I was telling her what happened,
1338
01:12:16,290 --> 01:12:20,711
and she communicated with me
that I should get in touch with CAIR,
1339
01:12:20,794 --> 01:12:24,006
Council of American-Islamic Relations.
1340
01:12:24,590 --> 01:12:28,510
After getting into contact with them,
they made my story public.
1341
01:12:30,179 --> 01:12:33,349
They decided to file my case with the EOC
1342
01:12:33,432 --> 01:12:35,976
and see if they would take it on
as a lawsuit.
1343
01:12:36,810 --> 01:12:40,314
And that's when it got real, honestly.
1344
01:12:42,524 --> 01:12:43,942
My picture was everywhere,
1345
01:12:44,026 --> 01:12:46,278
and people were, like,
sending me messages.
1346
01:12:46,779 --> 01:12:49,365
People were tweeting the craziest things.
1347
01:12:50,407 --> 01:12:53,202
There was a point
where I stopped reading any comments.
1348
01:12:53,702 --> 01:12:58,457
For every positive, encouraging words,
I was getting so much hate.
1349
01:13:00,292 --> 01:13:02,294
I did get a couple death threats.
1350
01:13:03,587 --> 01:13:06,256
It was more, like,
hate towards my religion
1351
01:13:06,924 --> 01:13:09,676
and my beliefs to choose to cover.
1352
01:13:10,177 --> 01:13:13,305
But at the same time,
I even had Muslims, like, say,
1353
01:13:14,014 --> 01:13:16,308
"Why would you wanna
work for Abercrombie?"
1354
01:13:18,268 --> 01:13:21,146
I also had people say,
"Go back to your country,"
1355
01:13:21,230 --> 01:13:24,441
which is funny because I was born
and raised in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
1356
01:13:24,525 --> 01:13:25,776
Where am I supposed to go?
1357
01:13:27,861 --> 01:13:31,990
[Maheshwari] Abercrombie really
dug its heels in on this topic
1358
01:13:32,074 --> 01:13:33,784
and decided that they were right.
1359
01:13:33,867 --> 01:13:37,413
The Abercrombie lawyers
tried to compare this to, you know,
1360
01:13:37,496 --> 01:13:38,747
wearing a baseball hat
1361
01:13:38,831 --> 01:13:42,334
and saying, "Well, we wouldn't let
an employee wear a baseball cap."
1362
01:13:42,418 --> 01:13:44,545
But obviously,
there's a really big difference
1363
01:13:44,628 --> 01:13:47,339
between a hijab and a baseball cap.
1364
01:13:47,423 --> 01:13:51,260
I remember going to my phone,
and it was, like, blowing up.
1365
01:13:52,761 --> 01:13:56,140
The Supreme Court came out with a list
of the 100 cases they would hear,
1366
01:13:56,223 --> 01:13:57,891
and mine was one of them.
1367
01:13:57,975 --> 01:13:59,685
[Berfield] That was pretty significant.
1368
01:13:59,768 --> 01:14:03,856
First, that a company would allow a case
to go to the Supreme Court.
1369
01:14:03,939 --> 01:14:05,232
Very unusual.
1370
01:14:05,315 --> 01:14:08,110
Most companies would want to settle
1371
01:14:08,193 --> 01:14:12,322
because they would be scared
about the publicity, winning or losing.
1372
01:14:12,406 --> 01:14:16,201
Their argument was that if they hired me,
I would hurt their brand,
1373
01:14:16,285 --> 01:14:18,370
which in return would hurt their sales.
1374
01:14:18,454 --> 01:14:21,039
That was their argument,
that I would hurt their numbers
1375
01:14:21,123 --> 01:14:22,958
because I didn't fit their look policy.
1376
01:14:24,126 --> 01:14:25,294
[reporter 4] The Supreme Court
1377
01:14:25,377 --> 01:14:28,172
rejected that argument
by an eight to one vote.
1378
01:14:29,047 --> 01:14:31,633
[reporter 5] The justices say
Abercrombie & Fitch's actions
1379
01:14:31,717 --> 01:14:34,761
violated the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
1380
01:14:36,430 --> 01:14:38,932
[Sagafi] If Justice Scalia is moved
to say you're discriminating,
1381
01:14:39,016 --> 01:14:40,434
you're really doing something wrong.
1382
01:14:41,310 --> 01:14:44,855
I had eight that voted in my favor,
and I had one who didn't,
1383
01:14:44,938 --> 01:14:49,485
and the one judge who did not vote
in my favor was African American.
1384
01:14:49,568 --> 01:14:51,904
So, not saying
'cause you're African American,
1385
01:14:51,987 --> 01:14:55,574
you have to be on my side,
because we're different,
1386
01:14:55,657 --> 01:14:57,284
but I was just surprised.
1387
01:14:58,911 --> 01:15:02,164
To this day, when people are like,
"I saw you in my history book,"
1388
01:15:02,247 --> 01:15:04,041
or, "Oh, I was reading about you."
1389
01:15:04,124 --> 01:15:06,960
"Oh, I'm studying law.
We talked about you,"
1390
01:15:07,044 --> 01:15:10,214
I don't think I realized,
like, what all I did.
1391
01:15:13,467 --> 01:15:16,220
[O'Keefe] Abercrombie & Fitch went
all the way to the Supreme Court.
1392
01:15:16,303 --> 01:15:19,014
Discrimination was not just a blip.
1393
01:15:19,097 --> 01:15:21,058
It was not just one quote
from seven years.
1394
01:15:21,141 --> 01:15:23,435
It was their brand. It was their identity.
1395
01:15:23,519 --> 01:15:27,189
They rooted themselves in discrimination
at every single level.
1396
01:15:28,065 --> 01:15:30,859
Abercrombie, at that point,
was almost synonymous with scandal.
1397
01:15:30,943 --> 01:15:32,694
It wasn't really about the clothing
1398
01:15:32,778 --> 01:15:35,864
or that they had too much logo,
and logo was going out of style.
1399
01:15:35,948 --> 01:15:38,992
It was really like,
"Oh, this brand is becoming problematic,"
1400
01:15:39,076 --> 01:15:41,620
because, as analysts would say,
1401
01:15:41,703 --> 01:15:45,415
all of this is distracting from
the business of selling clothes.
1402
01:15:47,834 --> 01:15:51,964
The second quarter proved
to be more difficult than expected.
1403
01:15:52,047 --> 01:15:54,967
We are not satisfied with our results
1404
01:15:55,050 --> 01:16:00,556
and are working hard to improve the trend
for the third quarter and beyond.
1405
01:16:03,559 --> 01:16:07,854
[Berfield] Abercrombie was becoming
irrelevant under Mike Jeffries.
1406
01:16:08,355 --> 01:16:11,275
But Mike Jeffries
is making a lot of money.
1407
01:16:12,234 --> 01:16:15,237
Mike's been hounded
by these shareholder lawsuits saying,
1408
01:16:15,320 --> 01:16:18,991
"Why are you paying yourself
$40 million a year
1409
01:16:19,074 --> 01:16:23,287
when your stock is, you know,
in the, like, bottom 10%?"
1410
01:16:23,370 --> 01:16:25,622
I actually found a manual
1411
01:16:25,706 --> 01:16:29,668
for how to treat Mike Jeffries
on the company airplane.
1412
01:16:29,751 --> 01:16:31,295
[female voice] Aircraft standards.
1413
01:16:32,296 --> 01:16:37,342
A 47-page manual
for the Abercrombie & Fitch executive jet.
1414
01:16:37,426 --> 01:16:42,139
It's impossible to overstate
how particular
1415
01:16:42,222 --> 01:16:43,807
the instructions were.
1416
01:16:43,890 --> 01:16:46,643
[female voice]
If the passengers are eating cold food,
1417
01:16:46,727 --> 01:16:49,605
crew members are not to eat hot meals.
1418
01:16:49,688 --> 01:16:50,981
The kind of instructions
1419
01:16:51,064 --> 01:16:54,234
that you never really see
revealed to the public.
1420
01:16:54,860 --> 01:16:57,696
[female voice]
When Michael or a guest make a request,
1421
01:16:57,779 --> 01:16:59,323
respond by saying,
1422
01:17:00,032 --> 01:17:00,949
"No problem."
1423
01:17:01,533 --> 01:17:06,580
This should be used in place of phrases
like, "Sure," or, "Just a minute."
1424
01:17:08,081 --> 01:17:11,668
The shifts he made
for the company were great
1425
01:17:11,752 --> 01:17:14,379
in terms of a small period of time.
1426
01:17:14,463 --> 01:17:16,506
I don't think any of that was sustainable.
1427
01:17:16,590 --> 01:17:19,468
It didn't feel like
there was a long-term strategy there.
1428
01:17:19,551 --> 01:17:23,805
It felt like it was, "Let's grow it
as big as it can possibly get
1429
01:17:23,889 --> 01:17:25,057
and see what happens."
1430
01:17:25,140 --> 01:17:28,435
You don't want your brand
to run white-hot,
1431
01:17:28,518 --> 01:17:32,147
because white-hot brands always burn out.
1432
01:17:33,815 --> 01:17:36,193
[reporter 8] Abercrombie,
it's in dire straits.
1433
01:17:36,693 --> 01:17:39,237
It's just that CEO Mike Jeffries
doesn't seem to know it.
1434
01:17:40,364 --> 01:17:43,867
[Rupp] In the 2000s, business started
to really change for Abercrombie,
1435
01:17:44,701 --> 01:17:46,620
and I think the customer began to change.
1436
01:17:48,246 --> 01:17:51,750
[Maheshwari] It was losing
its luster with teens.
1437
01:17:55,879 --> 01:17:57,255
[Sanchez] It wasn't cool.
1438
01:17:57,339 --> 01:18:01,968
You were wearing Abercrombie & Fitch,
it was like a construction outfit.
1439
01:18:02,052 --> 01:18:05,013
When you're in construction,
you put on your boots to go to work,
1440
01:18:05,097 --> 01:18:08,600
and you get home,
those boots and all that stuff comes out.
1441
01:18:08,684 --> 01:18:09,810
You go to the shower.
1442
01:18:09,893 --> 01:18:13,230
You're wearin' somethin' else
to do whatever you're gonna do after that.
1443
01:18:13,313 --> 01:18:15,774
That was our Abercrombie & Fitch clothing.
1444
01:18:15,857 --> 01:18:19,319
At some point, those kids that learned
it wasn't cool to be bullied grew up
1445
01:18:19,403 --> 01:18:22,864
and decided they didn't wanna spend money
at a place that made them feel bad.
1446
01:18:22,948 --> 01:18:25,409
And so Abercrombie & Fitch, like…
1447
01:18:26,118 --> 01:18:28,036
Some of that aura went away
1448
01:18:28,120 --> 01:18:33,875
precisely because exclusion
was the root of their success.
1449
01:18:34,751 --> 01:18:39,423
And exclusion itself
stopped being quite so cool.
1450
01:18:40,757 --> 01:18:42,801
We've got breaking news
on the retail front.
1451
01:18:42,884 --> 01:18:46,388
Abercrombie & Fitch,
the CEO is stepping down.
1452
01:18:48,974 --> 01:18:54,438
He literally was on the phone
with executives on Sunday, December 7th,
1453
01:18:55,147 --> 01:18:57,983
and Monday, December 8th,
did not show up for work.
1454
01:18:58,066 --> 01:18:59,234
Never showed up again,
1455
01:18:59,317 --> 01:19:02,362
and many people
have never seen him since then.
1456
01:19:04,865 --> 01:19:08,452
[Spencer] I think people thought
that Mike was a permanent fixture,
1457
01:19:08,535 --> 01:19:10,454
and you sit there and you think,
1458
01:19:10,537 --> 01:19:14,833
"How long will there be tolerance
for this sort of behavior,
1459
01:19:14,916 --> 01:19:17,586
this type of comment,
this type of leadership?"
1460
01:19:17,669 --> 01:19:19,588
So you think he would never go away.
1461
01:19:19,671 --> 01:19:22,340
So I remember thinking when he finally--
1462
01:19:22,424 --> 01:19:24,885
[laughs] I was like, "Wow!"
1463
01:19:24,968 --> 01:19:27,095
Like, "They finally got rid of him."
1464
01:19:27,596 --> 01:19:30,891
At some point,
you know, all things come to an end.
1465
01:19:38,273 --> 01:19:41,401
[Tkacik] Les Wexner
has been embroiled in scandals.
1466
01:19:41,485 --> 01:19:43,653
Just heading to a meeting. Thank you.
1467
01:19:44,196 --> 01:19:47,991
[reporter 6] Les Wexner announced
he was stepping down as CEO of L Brands.
1468
01:19:49,534 --> 01:19:53,705
[reporter 7] He remains under scrutiny
for his close ties to Jeffrey Epstein,
1469
01:19:53,789 --> 01:19:57,167
the convicted sex offender
and disgraced financier.
1470
01:19:57,667 --> 01:20:00,796
[Tkacik] He not only signed over
his entire fortune to Jeffrey Epstein,
1471
01:20:00,879 --> 01:20:04,841
he let Jeffrey represent himself
as a Victoria's Secret model scout.
1472
01:20:06,218 --> 01:20:07,969
One of the biggest reasons
1473
01:20:08,053 --> 01:20:11,765
Jeffrey Epstein was able
to surround himself constantly
1474
01:20:11,848 --> 01:20:14,142
with really hot young women,
1475
01:20:14,226 --> 01:20:17,604
they thought that he could,
you know, make or break them.
1476
01:20:17,687 --> 01:20:20,690
Bombshell exposé in The New York Times.
1477
01:20:20,774 --> 01:20:24,402
Bruce Weber guilty of years
of sexual misconduct and abuse.
1478
01:20:25,487 --> 01:20:28,907
[Tkacik] Bruce Weber, of course,
would be sued by legions of models.
1479
01:20:29,658 --> 01:20:33,495
Bruce told me I was tense
and did some breathing exercises with me.
1480
01:20:33,995 --> 01:20:35,705
At the time, I froze.
1481
01:20:35,789 --> 01:20:37,624
I did not know how to respond.
1482
01:20:37,707 --> 01:20:41,253
The entire experience
was terrifying and humiliating.
1483
01:21:06,903 --> 01:21:12,826
Changes tend to happen when, you know,
those who raise concerns can point out
1484
01:21:12,909 --> 01:21:16,413
all the ways in which a company
is leaving money on a table
1485
01:21:16,496 --> 01:21:18,582
by its current actions.
1486
01:21:18,665 --> 01:21:20,166
And then changes happen.
1487
01:21:20,834 --> 01:21:24,337
Repositioning a brand and moving
a brand forward is not always easy.
1488
01:21:24,421 --> 01:21:27,424
So, candidly, we've had
a few starts and stops on our journey.
1489
01:21:27,507 --> 01:21:30,218
We are no longer the company
that we used to be.
1490
01:21:30,302 --> 01:21:32,345
That we could wipe clean
our social channels,
1491
01:21:32,429 --> 01:21:34,389
wipe clean the history.
1492
01:21:52,365 --> 01:21:54,743
[Lindsey] Having a broad range
of people represented
1493
01:21:54,826 --> 01:21:58,997
and feel included in your brand
is smart business.
1494
01:21:59,080 --> 01:22:01,708
There is a smart business
of being discriminatory
1495
01:22:01,791 --> 01:22:04,669
and being exclusionary,
because there are always gonna be people
1496
01:22:04,753 --> 01:22:07,797
who want to see themselves
as the cool kids.
1497
01:22:07,881 --> 01:22:10,508
But it's fascinating to see
how many brands now
1498
01:22:10,592 --> 01:22:14,387
are doubling down on the cool kids
being anybody and everybody.
1499
01:22:15,889 --> 01:22:19,976
And they've gone the other direction
with respect to the diversity of models.
1500
01:22:20,060 --> 01:22:22,562
Abercrombie & Fitch has announced plans
1501
01:22:22,646 --> 01:22:26,316
to no longer hire employees
based on attractiveness,
1502
01:22:26,399 --> 01:22:29,986
which should make
the first new guy they hire feel great.
1503
01:22:30,070 --> 01:22:31,571
[audience laughter]
1504
01:22:31,655 --> 01:22:34,699
It's just a shame
that we couldn't have gone to that sooner.
1505
01:22:37,118 --> 01:22:41,331
Abercrombie & Fitch is illustrative
more so than it is exceptional.
1506
01:22:41,957 --> 01:22:45,961
[Rupp] They didn't invent evil.
They didn't invent class.
1507
01:22:46,044 --> 01:22:48,129
They just packaged it.
1508
01:22:48,213 --> 01:22:52,384
If anything, it represents
the worst parts of American history
1509
01:22:52,467 --> 01:22:56,096
in terms of the cost,
the hiring practices, the images.
1510
01:22:56,179 --> 01:22:59,891
It's everything we want America not to be.
1511
01:23:00,684 --> 01:23:02,936
[Rupp] We all like to think
we have grown beyond that,
1512
01:23:03,019 --> 01:23:04,896
that we're all a little bit better.
1513
01:23:06,439 --> 01:23:10,402
I don't know what it says about us
that it was so popular for so long.
1514
01:23:10,485 --> 01:23:11,319
Probably
1515
01:23:12,487 --> 01:23:15,365
that we really wanted to be liked.
[laughs]
1516
01:23:15,448 --> 01:23:20,787
We were kind of,
you know, blinded by our own… light.
1517
01:23:20,870 --> 01:23:23,581
[laughs] You know, we were like,
"We're so great. We're so successful."
1518
01:23:23,665 --> 01:23:26,334
But, like, social media wasn't a thing.
1519
01:23:26,418 --> 01:23:29,963
There were probably
just as many people as there are now
1520
01:23:30,046 --> 01:23:32,674
who hated what we were doing,
who were completely offended,
1521
01:23:32,757 --> 01:23:35,885
who didn't feel included,
who didn't feel represented.
1522
01:23:35,969 --> 01:23:38,596
But they didn't have the platform
to be able to voice it,
1523
01:23:38,680 --> 01:23:40,390
and now they do, so maybe…
1524
01:23:40,473 --> 01:23:43,476
Yeah, maybe it's not, like,
this massive societal new awareness.
1525
01:23:43,560 --> 01:23:47,605
It's just now we're hearing everyone,
and we have to pay attention.
1526
01:23:50,275 --> 01:23:55,238
[Yu] I think there's a limitation
to where brands can really walk the walk.
1527
01:23:55,321 --> 01:23:58,575
When it really comes down to it,
you're trying to sell something, right?
1528
01:23:58,658 --> 01:24:01,578
Can you really sell diversity inclusion
1529
01:24:01,661 --> 01:24:05,165
when really what you're trying to sell
is a V-neck, you know?
1530
01:24:05,999 --> 01:24:08,710
[Ocampo] My hope is that companies realize
that they play
1531
01:24:08,793 --> 01:24:12,922
a pivotal role in shaping culture,
shaping conversations,
1532
01:24:13,006 --> 01:24:17,177
shaping which people
in this society are valued.
1533
01:24:17,260 --> 01:24:20,680
The story of Abercrombie
is essentially an incredible indictment
1534
01:24:20,764 --> 01:24:22,932
of where our culture was…
1535
01:24:24,517 --> 01:24:26,227
oh, just ten years ago.
1536
01:24:26,311 --> 01:24:31,900
It was a culture
that, um, enthusiastically embraced
1537
01:24:31,983 --> 01:24:37,530
a nearly all sort of WASPy vision
of the world.
1538
01:24:37,614 --> 01:24:43,953
It was a culture that defined beauty
as thin and white and young,
1539
01:24:44,037 --> 01:24:50,335
and it was a culture
that was very happy to exclude people.
1540
01:24:51,878 --> 01:24:53,755
[producer] And so have we solved that now?
1541
01:24:53,838 --> 01:24:55,173
[laughs]
1542
01:24:55,256 --> 01:24:56,341
No.
1543
01:24:57,133 --> 01:25:00,845
♪ Can't you see our generation
Goin' down the tubes? ♪
1544
01:25:02,305 --> 01:25:06,684
♪ The more we keep lookin' back
We can only lose ♪
1545
01:25:08,186 --> 01:25:10,271
♪ Remember when we were
Kids hangin' out? ♪
1546
01:25:10,355 --> 01:25:13,066
♪ Feelin' all right
Thinkin' we're on top? ♪
1547
01:25:13,149 --> 01:25:16,611
♪ Well, now the whole damn generation's
Goin' down the tubes ♪
1548
01:25:18,947 --> 01:25:21,366
♪ Say goodbye to your generation ♪
1549
01:25:21,449 --> 01:25:24,285
♪ I'm left wantin' more
Than what we could do ♪
1550
01:25:24,369 --> 01:25:26,788
♪ Say goodbye to your generation ♪
1551
01:25:26,871 --> 01:25:29,791
♪ Yeah, that's right, I'm talking to you ♪
1552
01:25:51,521 --> 01:25:53,857
♪ Say goodbye to your generation ♪
1553
01:25:53,940 --> 01:25:56,860
♪ Say goodbye to your generation ♪
1554
01:25:56,943 --> 01:25:59,487
♪ Say goodbye to your generation ♪
1555
01:25:59,571 --> 01:26:02,532
-♪ Say goodbye to your generation ♪
-♪ It's goin' down the tubes ♪
1556
01:26:02,615 --> 01:26:05,285
-♪ Say goodbye to your generation ♪
-♪ It's goin' down the tubes ♪
1557
01:26:05,368 --> 01:26:08,121
-♪ Say goodbye to your generation ♪
-♪ It's goin' down the tubes ♪
1558
01:26:08,204 --> 01:26:10,832
-♪ Say goodbye to your generation ♪
-♪ It's goin' down the tubes ♪
1559
01:26:10,915 --> 01:26:13,501
♪ Say goodbye to your generation ♪
1560
01:26:13,585 --> 01:26:16,004
♪ Say goodbye to your generation ♪
1561
01:26:16,087 --> 01:26:18,256
♪ Say goodbye to your generation ♪
1562
01:26:18,882 --> 01:26:21,259
♪ Say goodbye to your generation ♪