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Downloaded from
YTS.MX

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Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.MX

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[waves crashing]

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- I think the fear of death
drives a lot of our lives.

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We try to suppress it.
We try to ignore it.

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We try to deny it.
We try to distract from it.

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But the truth is,
our fear of death,

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as some experts say,
drives all of culture.

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This underlying fear
of what happens when we die

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drives a lot
of people's ambitions.

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It drives what they do
and how they do it.

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They want to be immortal.

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[upbeat music]

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♪ ♪

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- ♪ I'm a city
on a hill, yeah ♪

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♪ I'm a light
in the darkness ♪

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♪ I'm a trumpet blowing down
my walls of fear ♪

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♪ I'm filled with promise ♪

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♪ I am built
to overcome, yeah ♪

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♪ I have joy in my sorrow ♪

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♪ And my only motivation
is your love ♪

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♪ I'm your beloved ♪

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♪ Oh, you walk anew ♪

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♪ I know ♪

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♪ What I was made to do ♪

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♪ Will you increase my ability
to be loved ♪

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♪ ♪

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♪ Will you increase my ability
to be loved ♪

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♪ Be loved by you ♪

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- Your personality
was changing.

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- Yeah.
- Over weeks.

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Yeah.

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- But it was small,
little things that, you know,

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you just kind of wonder
what that's about.

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But you jumped
into your novel,

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started becoming part
of that book

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that you had just finished.

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- Yeah, I was writing
the novel at the time,

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and I kind of became one
of the characters in the novel.

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That's right.

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Started seeing people
watching the house

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and kind of coming after you.

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You got to a point where you
would not go to a doctor.

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I called your doctor.
He wanted you to come in.

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I couldn't get you to come in.

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You were paranoid and thinking
people were after you,

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and then that night,
you went to bed,

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and thought I heard a noise
in the bedroom,

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and I thought, well,
maybe you're just dreaming,

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and I thought I better check.

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And there you were,

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you know, just laying there.

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[soft music]

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- The first thing
I saw was the doctor,

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and he was hovering over me.

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His surgical mask was down.

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And he had a concerned look
on his face.

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And I remember opening my eyes
and kind of trying

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to figure out where I was,
and then hearing him say,

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"You're one step
away from a coma,

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two steps away from dying."

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And even before I was able
to process that,

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I fell unconscious again.

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And so it was,
you know, a few days

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before I started
to come back around

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and feel like myself again.

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- And then, looking back
on all that we went through,

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I think back
at that time period,

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that was where I started
to really consider losing you,

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and that whatever's going on,
if it does take you from us,

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his plan is beyond mine,
and I can rest in that

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and know
that I'll see you again.

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Yeah, aw, aw.

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- But just don't go
dying early, okay?

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- Okay.
- Couple more centuries.

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- When you're on your back
in the emergency room,

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looking into the face
of an emergency room physician

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who says you're one step
away from a coma,

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two steps away from dying,
and all of a sudden,

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this becomes the most
relevant thing in the world.

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What happens next?

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What happens if I close my eyes

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and I don't open them
again in this world?

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Mm, um...

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- I have absolutely no idea
what happens after we die.

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- How do you make
a movie about Heaven?

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That question frightened me.

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I think it would take
a lifetime.

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I think it would take
exploration

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around the world
and different places,

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stories, and cultures.

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We had 12 months condensed
into 90 minutes

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to make this happen.

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If we could just touch Heaven
for one second in this film,

95
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I think that might be enough.

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The day I got
the phone call from Lee,

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I wasn't expecting it,

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but I knew that it was
gonna change everything.

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- Hey, Mani.
Lee Strobel calling.

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Hey, I've got a project
I'm working on called

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"The Case for Heaven."

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- Something I've learned in
my life throughout the years

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is that everybody
has a moment of truth.

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I think something
that's crucial

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that we think about is,

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if that moment were here,
would we be ready for it?

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My mother cleaned houses
in Malibu.

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My dad was a dishwasher when
they came to this country.

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I was born
in an immigrant family

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from Guatemala.

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I was raised
in South Central LA,

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definitely not
the nicest place

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to grow up in.

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Though there was
all this chaos outside,

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whether there were
drive-bys, gangs, you know,

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even fires, and things burning
down during the LA Riots,

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inside our house,
there was this peace,

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there was this joy.

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And if I can claim anything
to know about God,

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it's the fact
that he changes everything.

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[soft music]

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♪ ♪

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- [indistinct]
- Here we go.

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♪ ♪

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To compensate
for people's fear of death,

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they are trying
to find some way

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to live on beyond their death.

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People are terrified of dying,

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and that's
just all there is to it.

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Now, don't get me wrong,
if you ask people

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if they're afraid of dying,
they'll say no.

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In fact,
that's what most people do.

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The first step to dealing with
the fear of death is denial.

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I'm just going to ignore
the fact that I'm gonna die.

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Denial doesn't work
without distraction.

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You know, there's the old joke,

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think about whatever you want
for the next two minutes,

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but don't think
about pink elephants.

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Well, everybody
knows the answer to that.

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The answer to not thinking
about pink elephants

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is to think about blue ones.

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In other words, you have
to think about something else.

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And that's where movies,
social media, sports stars,

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singing stars,
you know, all of this--

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that's where
these things come in

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because it distracts us
from the fact

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that we're going to die.

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If you look at almost
everything that humans do,

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they're doing it
as a symbolic attempt

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to live on past their deaths

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because they're terrified
of death.

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Everyone on Earth is engaged
in some sort

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of a symbolic
immortality project.

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Build something,
to write a book,

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political activism is
an immortality project.

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I'm going to change the world.

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See, in other words,
I'm doing something

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to make the world
a better place.

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Having children is
a symbolic immortality project,

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and that's
the most common one of all.

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The trouble with that
is that your children

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are only half you.

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Their children--
your children's children

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are only a quarter you.

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After 20 generations,

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there will only
be 0.000004% you,

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if there's any of you at all
because, you know,

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genes transfer over in blocks,

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and there's regressive genes
and dominant genes,

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and after just
a few generations,

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there might not be any of you
at all in your offspring.

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But there's one more problem.

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I've asked my classes
all the time.

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I'll say, "So how many
of you know the first names

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of your
great-great-grandparents?"

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And I think, in all
the classes I've asked--

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I didn't write it down,
but I think in all the classes

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that I've asked,

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only three students
have ever said,

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"I know the first names of
my great-great-grandparents."

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And then, I ask
this follow-up question.

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I'll say, "Do you care?"

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Nobody cares.

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I've never had a student say,
"I really wish

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I knew the first names of
my great-great-grandparents."

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Nobody cares.

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- Unfortunately,
a lot of people figure,

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"I'm gonna go out
in a blaze of glory,

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"in a blaze of gunfire.

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"I'm gonna do something
that will make people

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"remember my name even if it
means blowing up a school

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or murdering somebody famous."

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- The investigation
into the high school massacre

194
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is slow-moving and dangerous.

195
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The two gunmen
who went on the rampage

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booby-trapped the building
and even themselves.

197
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- Mark David Chapman,
who murdered John Lennon,

198
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said that he was trying
to steal his fame.

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He walked past me.

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I took five steps
toward the street,

201
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turned,

202
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withdrew my Charter Arms .38,

203
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and fired five shots
into his back.

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- The Columbine killers,
the day before they went

205
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on this murderous spree
at that high school,

206
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were talking about,
"Which director is gonna direct

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the movie about our life?"

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- Witnesses say they laughed
as they fired their weapons,

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executing their classmates,
who begged for their lives.

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- Screaming after they'd
shoot up something,

211
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they'd go, "Whoo!"

212
00:10:50,817 --> 00:10:52,819
Just the pleasure for them.

213
00:10:52,819 --> 00:10:57,490
- Some people will commit
atrocious crimes

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because they want
to be remembered.

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That's the dark side
of symbolic immortality.

216
00:11:13,673 --> 00:11:15,258
What is a soul,

217
00:11:15,258 --> 00:11:18,386
and why include it
into your investigation?

218
00:11:18,386 --> 00:11:20,847
- The soul is our spirit.
It is our self.

219
00:11:20,847 --> 00:11:25,393
It is the locus
of our introspection,

220
00:11:25,393 --> 00:11:28,563
our emotions,
our desires, our thoughts.

221
00:11:28,563 --> 00:11:31,941
It is the essential you.

222
00:11:31,941 --> 00:11:34,027
It's our first-person
perspective.

223
00:11:34,027 --> 00:11:35,236
It's "I."

224
00:11:35,236 --> 00:11:37,405
The key question is,

225
00:11:37,405 --> 00:11:41,868
does the soul
survive physical death?

226
00:11:41,868 --> 00:11:44,871
When we die, our spirit,

227
00:11:44,871 --> 00:11:47,582
our soul,
separates from our body.

228
00:11:47,582 --> 00:11:49,459
So I wanted to look
at--what is the evidence

229
00:11:49,459 --> 00:11:51,252
that we have a soul,
first of all,

230
00:11:51,252 --> 00:11:53,254
and then secondly,
what evidence do we have

231
00:11:53,254 --> 00:11:55,798
that it can survive
our physical death?

232
00:11:55,798 --> 00:11:57,800
So in other words,
Jesus, on the cross, said

233
00:11:57,800 --> 00:11:59,969
to the thief next to him that,

234
00:11:59,969 --> 00:12:02,055
"Today, you'll be
with me in paradise."

235
00:12:02,055 --> 00:12:05,391
Apostle Paul said
to be absent from the body

236
00:12:05,391 --> 00:12:07,060
is to be present with the Lord.

237
00:12:07,060 --> 00:12:11,147
So when we die, our spirit,

238
00:12:11,147 --> 00:12:13,316
our soul separates
from our body.

239
00:12:13,316 --> 00:12:15,902
And as one philosopher said,

240
00:12:15,902 --> 00:12:19,364
"I am a soul,
and I have a body."

241
00:12:19,364 --> 00:12:21,658
I think that's a good way
to look at it.

242
00:12:23,284 --> 00:12:26,663
♪ ♪

243
00:12:26,663 --> 00:12:30,291
- One of the views
that we find being expressed

244
00:12:30,291 --> 00:12:33,252
is that you are your brain,
that everything you do,

245
00:12:33,252 --> 00:12:36,881
think, and say originates

246
00:12:36,881 --> 00:12:40,301
and is driven by the neurons
in your head.

247
00:12:40,301 --> 00:12:43,554
But is that all that there is
to being a human being,

248
00:12:43,554 --> 00:12:46,474
or is there actually more
to it?

249
00:12:46,474 --> 00:12:49,268
Well, it's true
that we have a brain.

250
00:12:49,268 --> 00:12:52,438
That's very important,
but we also have a mind,

251
00:12:52,438 --> 00:12:55,775
and we have this--there's
something that it is to be us.

252
00:12:55,775 --> 00:12:58,528
There's something
that it is like to be you

253
00:12:58,528 --> 00:13:03,574
that actually neurons alone
can't completely explain.

254
00:13:03,574 --> 00:13:09,664
♪ ♪

255
00:13:09,664 --> 00:13:12,542
I grew up
in a very loving home

256
00:13:12,542 --> 00:13:15,920
in the northeast of England,

257
00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,632
and it was a setting of which
kind of religious beliefs

258
00:13:19,632 --> 00:13:22,844
weren't really talked about
either way,

259
00:13:22,844 --> 00:13:26,055
and so there wasn't
any particular agenda

260
00:13:26,055 --> 00:13:29,684
or belief system
that was being pushed on me.

261
00:13:29,684 --> 00:13:31,894
♪ ♪

262
00:13:31,894 --> 00:13:35,231
Probably, I'd say,
by the time I was a teenager,

263
00:13:35,231 --> 00:13:38,818
I knew that I wanted
to be a scientist.

264
00:13:38,818 --> 00:13:41,362
I loved the sciences.

265
00:13:41,362 --> 00:13:45,033
And I remember
my biology teacher

266
00:13:45,033 --> 00:13:48,703
handing me a book
by Richard Dawkins

267
00:13:48,703 --> 00:13:54,584
about this idea that we are
essentially gene machines,

268
00:13:54,584 --> 00:13:56,919
and that the purpose
of our lives is

269
00:13:56,919 --> 00:13:59,922
to be DNA carriers,

270
00:13:59,922 --> 00:14:02,300
and I think
I absorbed the view

271
00:14:02,300 --> 00:14:04,260
that that must be the only way

272
00:14:04,260 --> 00:14:07,388
of looking at life
from other sources as well,

273
00:14:07,388 --> 00:14:10,391
like magazines, and radio,
and from other people

274
00:14:10,391 --> 00:14:11,893
that I was meeting.

275
00:14:11,893 --> 00:14:15,772
And you can't be
a credible scientist

276
00:14:15,772 --> 00:14:18,066
and believe
in God at the same time,

277
00:14:18,066 --> 00:14:21,110
and so I needed to find out
whether I was being asked

278
00:14:21,110 --> 00:14:24,739
to choose
between God and a theory.

279
00:14:24,739 --> 00:14:31,829
♪ ♪

280
00:14:31,829 --> 00:14:35,166
Is free will an illusion?

281
00:14:35,166 --> 00:14:37,418
Scientists will have
their different views,

282
00:14:37,418 --> 00:14:39,796
but there is one question

283
00:14:39,796 --> 00:14:43,466
that really science
isn't able to answer:

284
00:14:43,466 --> 00:14:45,927
why can we think
in the first place?

285
00:14:45,927 --> 00:14:48,846
And if the forces
of nature are not enough

286
00:14:48,846 --> 00:14:50,640
to explain the human mind,

287
00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:53,810
then maybe our explanations
for the human mind lie

288
00:14:53,810 --> 00:14:56,938
beyond the forces of nature.

289
00:14:56,938 --> 00:15:02,944
♪ ♪

290
00:15:02,944 --> 00:15:05,571
A significant part
of my story is

291
00:15:05,571 --> 00:15:08,783
when I was invited
to a carol service

292
00:15:08,783 --> 00:15:11,953
around Christmastime
when I was at university,

293
00:15:11,953 --> 00:15:15,915
and I was just really moved
by the experience

294
00:15:15,915 --> 00:15:18,501
of what was happening,

295
00:15:18,501 --> 00:15:21,379
and there was more going on
than just the music.

296
00:15:21,379 --> 00:15:25,174
There was something else
that really was moving me

297
00:15:25,174 --> 00:15:27,718
on quite a deep level.

298
00:15:27,718 --> 00:15:29,679
♪ ♪

299
00:15:29,679 --> 00:15:32,598
What was that?
What is that?

300
00:15:32,598 --> 00:15:34,684
And, you know,
if all that there is

301
00:15:34,684 --> 00:15:36,686
to this world is
physical things,

302
00:15:36,686 --> 00:15:40,481
then there wasn't really a way
to make sense of that.

303
00:15:40,481 --> 00:15:47,655
♪ ♪

304
00:15:47,655 --> 00:15:52,118
One of the go-tos of those
that are trying to say,

305
00:15:52,118 --> 00:15:54,912
"No, there's more to a human
being than just their brain,"

306
00:15:54,912 --> 00:15:59,041
is the idea that we have
these experiences all the time

307
00:15:59,041 --> 00:16:02,170
that are very difficult
to describe purely in terms

308
00:16:02,170 --> 00:16:07,675
of physical interactions
and physical descriptions.

309
00:16:07,675 --> 00:16:11,137
You know,
one example would be coffee.

310
00:16:11,137 --> 00:16:13,097
You know,
here we are drinking coffee.

311
00:16:13,097 --> 00:16:17,059
Imagine I were to ask you
to describe to me the smell

312
00:16:17,059 --> 00:16:22,106
of coffee purely in terms
of physical descriptions.

313
00:16:22,106 --> 00:16:25,359
You know, we might come up
with the chemical structure

314
00:16:25,359 --> 00:16:27,236
of caffeine,
but that wouldn't

315
00:16:27,236 --> 00:16:30,448
actually get us any closer
to the smell of coffee.

316
00:16:30,448 --> 00:16:33,868
Or we might describe what's
happening physiologically

317
00:16:33,868 --> 00:16:36,495
as it goes into our body
and we digest it,

318
00:16:36,495 --> 00:16:38,039
but that doesn't
get you any closer...

319
00:16:38,039 --> 00:16:40,291
- Yeah.
- To the smell of coffee.

320
00:16:40,291 --> 00:16:41,834
If you want to understand
the smell of coffee,

321
00:16:41,834 --> 00:16:43,377
you need to smell it,

322
00:16:43,377 --> 00:16:46,005
and this is an example
of a quale in the singular,

323
00:16:46,005 --> 00:16:48,257
or qualia, in its plural.

324
00:16:48,257 --> 00:16:52,094
♪ ♪

325
00:16:52,094 --> 00:16:54,972
Life is full of qualia,

326
00:16:54,972 --> 00:16:59,769
and these things cannot be
described in physical terms.

327
00:16:59,769 --> 00:17:02,855
They are in a category
of their own.

328
00:17:02,855 --> 00:17:05,650
And ultimately,
there's the qualia

329
00:17:05,650 --> 00:17:07,401
of what it is like to be you,

330
00:17:07,401 --> 00:17:09,946
the experience--
the first-person experience

331
00:17:09,946 --> 00:17:11,280
of being a human being.

332
00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:15,826
♪ ♪

333
00:17:15,826 --> 00:17:18,913
You know, maybe there's
a sort of a bigger experience

334
00:17:18,913 --> 00:17:20,831
that is out there.

335
00:17:20,831 --> 00:17:23,584
And if physical descriptions
aren't enough,

336
00:17:23,584 --> 00:17:26,045
maybe the ultimate reason
for that lies

337
00:17:26,045 --> 00:17:27,755
beyond the physical.

338
00:17:27,755 --> 00:17:30,549
And where I really kind
of land with this is that,

339
00:17:30,549 --> 00:17:32,385
you know, we are conscious,

340
00:17:32,385 --> 00:17:34,971
we have
these conscious experiences

341
00:17:34,971 --> 00:17:39,475
because we're made by a god
who is himself conscious

342
00:17:39,475 --> 00:17:42,353
in Father, Son,
and Holy Spirit,

343
00:17:42,353 --> 00:17:45,356
and who has made a world
in which that kind

344
00:17:45,356 --> 00:17:48,609
of consciousness is extended
into human beings.

345
00:17:48,609 --> 00:17:51,821
And so we think
because God does.

346
00:17:51,821 --> 00:17:54,824
We have a mind
because God does,

347
00:17:54,824 --> 00:17:57,201
which is kind of radical,
because a lot of people think

348
00:17:57,201 --> 00:18:00,621
to be a Christian
or to be a spiritual person

349
00:18:00,621 --> 00:18:02,707
is perhaps
to throw out your brain

350
00:18:02,707 --> 00:18:05,334
and start
believing impossible things

351
00:18:05,334 --> 00:18:08,087
that have no bearing on life,
but actually no.

352
00:18:08,087 --> 00:18:10,256
Actually,
to be a thinking person

353
00:18:10,256 --> 00:18:12,967
is to live out what it means

354
00:18:12,967 --> 00:18:15,636
to be made
in the image of God.

355
00:18:15,636 --> 00:18:22,560
♪ ♪

356
00:18:27,315 --> 00:18:29,525
- A famous old
recording engineer--

357
00:18:29,525 --> 00:18:31,193
his name's Walter Sear.

358
00:18:31,193 --> 00:18:33,571
He had a place called
Sear Sound in New York City.

359
00:18:33,571 --> 00:18:36,574
[cello playing]

360
00:18:36,574 --> 00:18:38,701
I read something he said once,

361
00:18:38,701 --> 00:18:43,039
that everything
we do in here is a lie

362
00:18:43,039 --> 00:18:45,207
because you've got
these two speakers,

363
00:18:45,207 --> 00:18:47,084
these two crappy
little speakers,

364
00:18:47,084 --> 00:18:49,378
and you're trying
to create these giant worlds,

365
00:18:49,378 --> 00:18:52,590
like you're in a big hall,
or you're, you know,

366
00:18:52,590 --> 00:18:54,592
in a giant silo
with a drummer.

367
00:18:54,592 --> 00:18:57,595
[dramatic music]

368
00:18:57,595 --> 00:19:01,766
♪ ♪

369
00:19:01,766 --> 00:19:03,726
So everything you have
to do in here

370
00:19:03,726 --> 00:19:08,731
is extremely calculated
to create this illusion

371
00:19:08,731 --> 00:19:11,525
that there's this world
coming out of these speakers.

372
00:19:11,525 --> 00:19:14,737
And hopefully,
you feel enveloped in them.

373
00:19:14,737 --> 00:19:16,614
- You're gonna have the paper
in your hand for this?

374
00:19:16,614 --> 00:19:18,324
- Yeah.
Does it look bad if I do?

375
00:19:18,324 --> 00:19:19,283
- I don't--
- I don't mind it.

376
00:19:19,283 --> 00:19:20,534
I don't mind.

377
00:19:20,534 --> 00:19:23,037
- This is real stuff,
okay, guys?

378
00:19:23,037 --> 00:19:24,872
- Yeah.
- We didn't cut this.

379
00:19:24,872 --> 00:19:26,374
I think I called you
on the phone.

380
00:19:26,374 --> 00:19:27,875
I was in Georgia.

381
00:19:27,875 --> 00:19:29,585
I called you,
"Hey, Lee, I have this idea."

382
00:19:29,585 --> 00:19:32,254
You know, you had
an id--something in your book

383
00:19:32,254 --> 00:19:33,547
about how you went
to a concert.

384
00:19:33,547 --> 00:19:34,715
- Yeah.
- You know, the experience.

385
00:19:34,715 --> 00:19:36,133
And I was like,

386
00:19:36,133 --> 00:19:37,468
"Hey, Lee, I want
to do something at a studio."

387
00:19:37,468 --> 00:19:38,719
What was your first impression?

388
00:19:38,719 --> 00:19:40,137
- Well, I didn't know
what to expect.

389
00:19:40,137 --> 00:19:42,223
You know, entering
into your thinking process...

390
00:19:42,223 --> 00:19:43,849
- Yes.
- Is always an adventure.

391
00:19:43,849 --> 00:19:45,393
Yes.

392
00:19:45,393 --> 00:19:47,478
- And so I just kind
of went along for the ride.

393
00:19:47,478 --> 00:19:50,272
And I think there's a couple
of ways to look at it.

394
00:19:50,272 --> 00:19:53,150
You know, there's a lot
in the Bible about Heaven,

395
00:19:53,150 --> 00:19:56,362
but a lot
of it is metaphorical.

396
00:19:56,362 --> 00:20:00,324
A lot of it uses imagery
to convey something

397
00:20:00,324 --> 00:20:03,494
that may not be figuratively
accurate and so forth.

398
00:20:03,494 --> 00:20:06,038
So we know a lot
about Heaven,

399
00:20:06,038 --> 00:20:07,873
but we don't know
a lot about Heaven.

400
00:20:07,873 --> 00:20:10,709
And I think ultimately,
it's gonna be the kind of place

401
00:20:10,709 --> 00:20:12,211
where you're gonna have to say,

402
00:20:12,211 --> 00:20:14,046
you just gotta go
and experience it

403
00:20:14,046 --> 00:20:15,673
to really understand it.

404
00:20:15,673 --> 00:20:19,218
And so today, with
this whole musical experience,

405
00:20:19,218 --> 00:20:21,345
which is so alien
to my background,

406
00:20:21,345 --> 00:20:23,264
was the kind of thing

407
00:20:23,264 --> 00:20:25,641
that you just kind
of had to experience.

408
00:20:25,641 --> 00:20:28,352
- How different in dynamics
was it actually hearing it

409
00:20:28,352 --> 00:20:29,854
back through the speakers?

410
00:20:29,854 --> 00:20:32,022
- It's very different
because, first of all,

411
00:20:32,022 --> 00:20:34,483
Bob was totally into it

412
00:20:34,483 --> 00:20:36,861
and was kind
of sending hand signals

413
00:20:36,861 --> 00:20:39,697
through the glass to
the drum player and so forth.

414
00:20:39,697 --> 00:20:41,198
Yeah, yeah.

415
00:20:41,198 --> 00:20:43,117
And the idea that it comes

416
00:20:43,117 --> 00:20:45,411
through
some pretty basic speakers,

417
00:20:45,411 --> 00:20:47,413
but then through the system,

418
00:20:47,413 --> 00:20:52,751
that can enrich the sound,
and the product that you get

419
00:20:52,751 --> 00:20:56,005
in the end is
so much more vibrant

420
00:20:56,005 --> 00:20:59,675
and robust than just listening
to somebody play an instrument.

421
00:20:59,675 --> 00:21:03,846
♪ ♪

422
00:21:03,846 --> 00:21:06,640
Leslie and I,
when we were newly wed,

423
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,477
went to a concert
with the Rolling Stones

424
00:21:09,477 --> 00:21:11,687
and with Ike and Tina Turner.

425
00:21:11,687 --> 00:21:15,566
I remember afterwards trying
to communicate to a friend

426
00:21:15,566 --> 00:21:17,985
of mine what that was like.

427
00:21:17,985 --> 00:21:21,363
And I'm trying
to tell him about the sound,

428
00:21:21,363 --> 00:21:26,035
and the ambience of the room,
and the crowd,

429
00:21:26,035 --> 00:21:30,247
and the songs,
which songs were played.

430
00:21:30,247 --> 00:21:32,249
And at the end,
it was so--at the end, I said,

431
00:21:32,249 --> 00:21:34,043
"Well, you just had
to be there."

432
00:21:34,043 --> 00:21:35,920
'cause mere words

433
00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,714
couldn't communicate
the whole experience.

434
00:21:38,714 --> 00:21:44,762
♪ ♪

435
00:21:44,762 --> 00:21:48,224
A lot of scientists believe
that we are just our brains.

436
00:21:48,224 --> 00:21:50,726
We're just
a meat computer basically.

437
00:21:50,726 --> 00:21:52,770
Well, there's a lot
of implications of that,

438
00:21:52,770 --> 00:21:54,688
and a lot of them are good.

439
00:21:54,688 --> 00:21:57,066
For instance, if we're
just a meat computer,

440
00:21:57,066 --> 00:21:59,109
we don't
really have free will.

441
00:21:59,109 --> 00:22:01,403
How do you punish someone
for doing something illegal

442
00:22:01,403 --> 00:22:02,863
if there's no free will?

443
00:22:02,863 --> 00:22:04,490
He didn't have a choice.

444
00:22:04,490 --> 00:22:07,201
How do you congratulate
someone does something great?

445
00:22:07,201 --> 00:22:08,661
It doesn't make sense,

446
00:22:08,661 --> 00:22:10,287
but a lot
of scientists believe that.

447
00:22:10,287 --> 00:22:14,959
And yet, we know that
we are more than our brain,

448
00:22:14,959 --> 00:22:18,128
that our brain can tell us,
if you go to a concert,

449
00:22:18,128 --> 00:22:20,089
which notes were played,

450
00:22:20,089 --> 00:22:22,383
what the temperature
of the room was,

451
00:22:22,383 --> 00:22:25,970
and so forth, but it can't
convey the experience.

452
00:22:25,970 --> 00:22:28,264
We are more
than a meat machine.

453
00:22:28,264 --> 00:22:29,890
We are more
than just our brains.

454
00:22:29,890 --> 00:22:31,600
We have a spirit.
We have a soul.

455
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:33,269
We have a consciousness.

456
00:22:33,269 --> 00:22:35,688
It's the seat of our volition,
of our emotions,

457
00:22:35,688 --> 00:22:38,107
of our feelings, and so forth.

458
00:22:38,107 --> 00:22:43,195
And you can't open a cell
in your brain and say,

459
00:22:43,195 --> 00:22:45,072
"Oh, here's Lee's emotions."

460
00:22:45,072 --> 00:22:47,032
It doesn't work that way.

461
00:22:47,032 --> 00:22:50,536
We are a hyphenated people.

462
00:22:50,536 --> 00:22:52,621
In other words,
we are a body,

463
00:22:52,621 --> 00:22:54,456
but we're also a soul,
a spirit.

464
00:22:54,456 --> 00:22:56,959
And what's important
about that is that,

465
00:22:56,959 --> 00:22:58,669
if that is true,

466
00:22:58,669 --> 00:23:03,299
then it would make sense
that if our physical body died,

467
00:23:03,299 --> 00:23:08,554
our immaterial body, that is,
our spirit or our soul,

468
00:23:08,554 --> 00:23:10,556
could continue to live.

469
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:18,105
Near-death experiences--
I was a skeptic about it.

470
00:23:18,105 --> 00:23:20,649
Even as a Christian,
I was skeptical

471
00:23:20,649 --> 00:23:22,359
about near-death experiences
initially

472
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:24,403
until I did the research.

473
00:23:24,403 --> 00:23:26,780
One of the things that
John Burke did in his research

474
00:23:26,780 --> 00:23:28,866
when he wrote his book
"Imagine Heaven,"

475
00:23:28,866 --> 00:23:32,411
about near-death experiences
is, he only interviewed people

476
00:23:32,411 --> 00:23:35,456
who had nothing to gain
and a lot to lose

477
00:23:35,456 --> 00:23:37,333
by talking about their
near-death experiences.

478
00:23:37,333 --> 00:23:38,792
There's two questions, really.

479
00:23:38,792 --> 00:23:43,005
One question is,
are we a body and a spirit

480
00:23:43,005 --> 00:23:46,884
or soul, or consciousness,
and if we are,

481
00:23:46,884 --> 00:23:49,053
how do we know
that consciousness

482
00:23:49,053 --> 00:23:51,555
survives clinical death?

483
00:23:51,555 --> 00:23:54,516
And that's where we get
into near-death experiences.

484
00:23:54,516 --> 00:23:56,101
- That's our segue right now.
- Yeah.

485
00:23:56,101 --> 00:23:57,936
Which I love, because

486
00:23:57,936 --> 00:23:59,647
as our conversations
have developed,

487
00:23:59,647 --> 00:24:04,360
and we're moving through,
you know, these topics,

488
00:24:04,360 --> 00:24:06,111
I think
the near-death experiences is

489
00:24:06,111 --> 00:24:07,446
the thing that--'cause
I was gonna say,

490
00:24:07,446 --> 00:24:08,530
well, how do you prove that?

491
00:24:08,530 --> 00:24:10,491
Yeah.

492
00:24:14,036 --> 00:24:16,872
- For me, it started
when I was still an agnostic

493
00:24:16,872 --> 00:24:18,874
and a skeptic.

494
00:24:18,874 --> 00:24:21,210
I was an engineer
for a number of years,

495
00:24:21,210 --> 00:24:24,254
and that's kind
of how my mind works.

496
00:24:24,254 --> 00:24:27,132
God, the afterlife, all that--
I just didn't know,

497
00:24:27,132 --> 00:24:29,009
and I honestly didn't care.

498
00:24:29,009 --> 00:24:32,513
But my dad was dying of cancer,
and someone gave him

499
00:24:32,513 --> 00:24:36,016
the very first research
on what's come

500
00:24:36,016 --> 00:24:37,685
to be called
near-death experiences.

501
00:24:37,685 --> 00:24:39,853
[soft music]

502
00:24:39,853 --> 00:24:43,190
When someone clinically dies,
their heart stops beating,

503
00:24:43,190 --> 00:24:45,275
in some cases,
brain waves cease,

504
00:24:45,275 --> 00:24:49,655
and yet modern medicine,
or miracle, whatever,

505
00:24:49,655 --> 00:24:52,032
brings them back,
and they actually talk

506
00:24:52,032 --> 00:24:54,451
about a life to come.

507
00:24:54,451 --> 00:24:59,039
And that began a whole journey
of really exploring,

508
00:24:59,039 --> 00:25:02,167
and questioning, and trying
to understand all of this

509
00:25:02,167 --> 00:25:06,046
that has gone on
for about 35 years.

510
00:25:06,046 --> 00:25:08,257
These commonalities
that people report,

511
00:25:08,257 --> 00:25:10,217
and they report
these same commonalities

512
00:25:10,217 --> 00:25:11,760
around the globe--

513
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:13,470
how does that
actually intersect

514
00:25:13,470 --> 00:25:15,597
with what the Bible says?

515
00:25:15,597 --> 00:25:22,521
♪ ♪

516
00:25:24,314 --> 00:25:28,235
In a court of law, you know,
if you had ten people

517
00:25:28,235 --> 00:25:30,028
who witnessed an accident

518
00:25:30,028 --> 00:25:32,239
and they all say
exactly the same thing,

519
00:25:32,239 --> 00:25:34,450
that's collusion, right?

520
00:25:34,450 --> 00:25:36,785
That would be thrown out

521
00:25:36,785 --> 00:25:39,830
because people would never say
exactly the same thing

522
00:25:39,830 --> 00:25:42,166
unless they colluded together
to say the same thing.

523
00:25:42,166 --> 00:25:43,917
But if you have ten people

524
00:25:43,917 --> 00:25:45,753
who say
slightly different things

525
00:25:45,753 --> 00:25:48,005
from different perspectives,
but they all overlap

526
00:25:48,005 --> 00:25:50,632
to make a bigger picture,
well, that's a strong case.

527
00:25:50,632 --> 00:25:54,261
I mean, I've personally studied
over a thousand of them,

528
00:25:54,261 --> 00:25:57,723
but you have millions
all over the globe.

529
00:25:57,723 --> 00:25:59,683
In fact,
the Gallup poll did a survey

530
00:25:59,683 --> 00:26:02,519
and found 1 out of 25 Americans
has had one

531
00:26:02,519 --> 00:26:04,521
of these near-death
experiences.

532
00:26:04,521 --> 00:26:07,775
That's like
13 million Americans.

533
00:26:07,775 --> 00:26:10,360
European Academy
of Neuroscience recently did

534
00:26:10,360 --> 00:26:13,197
a study across 35 countries,

535
00:26:13,197 --> 00:26:17,075
and they found that
more like one in ten Europeans

536
00:26:17,075 --> 00:26:18,827
have had one
of these experiences.

537
00:26:18,827 --> 00:26:21,288
So these are not uncommon.

538
00:26:21,288 --> 00:26:28,504
♪ ♪

539
00:26:28,504 --> 00:26:31,507
- In order to show
that we have a consciousness

540
00:26:31,507 --> 00:26:36,094
that survives our death,
we just need one authentic,

541
00:26:36,094 --> 00:26:39,306
corroborated
near-death experience,

542
00:26:39,306 --> 00:26:42,142
and we have a lot more
than one of those examples.

543
00:26:42,142 --> 00:26:44,353
My favorite example
is Pamela Reynolds.

544
00:26:44,353 --> 00:26:46,355
Here's a 35-year-old woman

545
00:26:46,355 --> 00:26:48,357
who is having
a brain aneurysm,

546
00:26:48,357 --> 00:26:52,903
so she had to have
a highly unusual operation.

547
00:26:52,903 --> 00:26:55,030
They put her
under deep anesthetic.

548
00:26:55,030 --> 00:26:57,908
Her body was cooled
to 50 degrees,

549
00:26:57,908 --> 00:27:02,538
and all of the blood
was drained from her brain.

550
00:27:02,538 --> 00:27:05,249
Three tests showed that

551
00:27:05,249 --> 00:27:09,336
there was no measurable
brain activity whatsoever.

552
00:27:09,336 --> 00:27:13,423
She had devices inserted
into her ears

553
00:27:13,423 --> 00:27:16,927
so that all she could hear
was 100 decibels of sound,

554
00:27:16,927 --> 00:27:19,847
which is like a subway train
going right next to you.

555
00:27:19,847 --> 00:27:21,890
And then her eyes
were taped shut.

556
00:27:21,890 --> 00:27:24,309
And all the surgical
instruments were shrouded

557
00:27:24,309 --> 00:27:26,228
before the surgery began.

558
00:27:26,228 --> 00:27:28,438
♪ ♪

559
00:27:28,438 --> 00:27:33,485
And yet, she was conscious,
she said, during that surgery.

560
00:27:33,485 --> 00:27:35,946
Even though there was
no measurable brain activity,

561
00:27:35,946 --> 00:27:37,447
she was conscious.

562
00:27:37,447 --> 00:27:41,201
She described witnessing
the surgery take place.

563
00:27:41,201 --> 00:27:43,120
She described going
through a tunnel,

564
00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:46,707
meeting dead relatives,
coming back into her body.

565
00:27:46,707 --> 00:27:50,085
She was able
to recall specific details

566
00:27:50,085 --> 00:27:52,963
about the highly
unusual instruments

567
00:27:52,963 --> 00:27:54,798
that were used
during her surgery.

568
00:27:54,798 --> 00:27:57,009
And, even more than that,

569
00:27:57,009 --> 00:28:00,512
she recalls
specific conversations

570
00:28:00,512 --> 00:28:03,640
that took place
while she was brain-dead,

571
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:05,434
while she was clinically dead.

572
00:28:05,434 --> 00:28:08,270
She remembers
one person saying,

573
00:28:08,270 --> 00:28:11,064
"We have a problem.
Her arteries are too small,"

574
00:28:11,064 --> 00:28:14,735
and a male voice responding,
"Go to the other side."

575
00:28:14,735 --> 00:28:18,989
So she witnessed things
that she had no way of knowing

576
00:28:18,989 --> 00:28:21,074
unless her consciousness

577
00:28:21,074 --> 00:28:24,161
somehow survived
her clinical death.

578
00:28:24,161 --> 00:28:27,456
[breathing]

579
00:28:27,456 --> 00:28:31,710
- Another researcher
studied 93 patients

580
00:28:31,710 --> 00:28:36,381
who reported specific details
that they encountered

581
00:28:36,381 --> 00:28:38,050
during their
near-death experience,

582
00:28:38,050 --> 00:28:39,927
like Pamela Reynolds
identifying

583
00:28:39,927 --> 00:28:41,637
the surgical instruments
that were used

584
00:28:41,637 --> 00:28:43,805
and the conversations
that were spoken.

585
00:28:43,805 --> 00:28:48,435
And what she discovered is
that a remarkable 92% of them

586
00:28:48,435 --> 00:28:50,729
were absolutely accurate

587
00:28:50,729 --> 00:28:53,899
in what
they verifiably claimed.

588
00:28:53,899 --> 00:28:57,319
Another 6% were
largely accurate.

589
00:28:57,319 --> 00:28:59,947
Well, that's
almost a perfect record

590
00:28:59,947 --> 00:29:02,324
of these people
observing things

591
00:29:02,324 --> 00:29:04,117
that they otherwise
could not have observed

592
00:29:04,117 --> 00:29:06,328
because they were
clinically dead at the time,

593
00:29:06,328 --> 00:29:11,083
and yet reporting correctly
what they had seen.

594
00:29:11,083 --> 00:29:13,043
- One of the commonalities
of people

595
00:29:13,043 --> 00:29:16,171
who have NDEs
is a life review.

596
00:29:16,171 --> 00:29:19,508
And because time doesn't work
the same on the other side,

597
00:29:19,508 --> 00:29:21,885
they often relive
their entire lives.

598
00:29:21,885 --> 00:29:23,512
It's like watching

599
00:29:23,512 --> 00:29:27,349
a three-dimensional
panoramic replay of your life,

600
00:29:27,349 --> 00:29:31,353
but what they say is they're
watching not only everything

601
00:29:31,353 --> 00:29:34,856
they did, but their
interactions with other people,

602
00:29:34,856 --> 00:29:39,945
and they can experience how
it felt to the other people.

603
00:29:39,945 --> 00:29:41,571
So they're not
just experiencing

604
00:29:41,571 --> 00:29:43,031
what they thought and felt.

605
00:29:43,031 --> 00:29:44,408
They're experiencing
what others thought

606
00:29:44,408 --> 00:29:46,076
and felt as well.

607
00:29:46,076 --> 00:29:47,869
♪ ♪

608
00:29:47,869 --> 00:29:52,457
When I was being interviewed
on the news in New York City,

609
00:29:52,457 --> 00:29:56,044
I got an email
afterwards from Heidi.

610
00:29:56,044 --> 00:29:58,213
She was a hospice nurse.

611
00:29:58,213 --> 00:30:00,924
And she said,
"Hey, I saw you on the news.

612
00:30:00,924 --> 00:30:03,385
"I heard about your book.
I've never read your book.

613
00:30:03,385 --> 00:30:04,886
"I don't know who you are.

614
00:30:04,886 --> 00:30:08,432
But that happened to me
when I was 16 years old."

615
00:30:08,432 --> 00:30:11,935
And she said,
"I grew up in a Jewish home,

616
00:30:11,935 --> 00:30:16,314
"but my father and mother--
they were agnostic atheist.

617
00:30:16,314 --> 00:30:18,817
"My dad used to tell me that,

618
00:30:18,817 --> 00:30:22,029
"'You're no more significant
than a speck of dust,

619
00:30:22,029 --> 00:30:24,740
"'and Jesus Christ
was the biggest hoax

620
00:30:24,740 --> 00:30:27,117
ever perpetrated
on humanity.'"

621
00:30:27,117 --> 00:30:30,454
♪ ♪

622
00:30:30,454 --> 00:30:34,708
"When I was 16, my horse
reared back, and fell on me,

623
00:30:34,708 --> 00:30:37,586
"and completely crushed
my pelvis and my chest,

624
00:30:37,586 --> 00:30:39,755
and I died."

625
00:30:39,755 --> 00:30:42,299
♪ ♪

626
00:30:42,299 --> 00:30:46,219
She said, "I was up
above my body about 30 feet,

627
00:30:46,219 --> 00:30:49,806
"and I'm watching
my sisters freak out,

628
00:30:49,806 --> 00:30:52,184
"and I'm thinking,

629
00:30:52,184 --> 00:30:55,812
I wish my sisters
didn't have to watch me die."

630
00:30:55,812 --> 00:30:58,315
She felt great, but she was sad
that they had to watch that.

631
00:30:58,315 --> 00:31:00,650
♪ ♪

632
00:31:00,650 --> 00:31:03,278
And then she sees a light
over her shoulder, she said.

633
00:31:03,278 --> 00:31:06,573
And she turns,
and there's Jesus.

634
00:31:06,573 --> 00:31:09,910
She fully wasn't
expecting Jesus.

635
00:31:09,910 --> 00:31:13,914
And yet, she said,
"I knew this was God.

636
00:31:13,914 --> 00:31:16,458
"And he looked
just like Jesus.

637
00:31:16,458 --> 00:31:18,418
And I felt
like I had always known him."

638
00:31:18,418 --> 00:31:21,379
♪ ♪

639
00:31:21,379 --> 00:31:23,715
Since she was a little girl,

640
00:31:23,715 --> 00:31:26,968
she had always believed in God
and had always prayed to God.

641
00:31:26,968 --> 00:31:29,888
And Jesus ends up
in this near-death experience

642
00:31:29,888 --> 00:31:31,765
giving her a life review.

643
00:31:31,765 --> 00:31:34,726
And he shows her
in the life review,

644
00:31:34,726 --> 00:31:36,770
when she was
a little girl praying

645
00:31:36,770 --> 00:31:39,189
and she would feel
this sense of peace,

646
00:31:39,189 --> 00:31:42,484
that he was actually the one
sitting on her bedside

647
00:31:42,484 --> 00:31:44,319
when she would pray.

648
00:31:44,319 --> 00:31:48,532
She came back
from that experience knowing

649
00:31:48,532 --> 00:31:52,202
that Jesus was God,
and yet she's Jewish.

650
00:31:52,202 --> 00:31:56,289
And she's been able
to see that the Jewish prophets

651
00:31:56,289 --> 00:32:00,335
foretold all about Jesus,
and so she's Jewish,

652
00:32:00,335 --> 00:32:03,004
but she believes that
Jesus was the Jewish Messiah

653
00:32:03,004 --> 00:32:05,132
who was foretold.

654
00:32:05,132 --> 00:32:08,677
♪ ♪

655
00:32:08,677 --> 00:32:11,596
- And so we have a famous case
of a woman

656
00:32:11,596 --> 00:32:16,852
who was clinically dead,
and she describes how

657
00:32:16,852 --> 00:32:18,812
her soul separated
from her body.

658
00:32:18,812 --> 00:32:26,069
♪ ♪

659
00:32:26,987 --> 00:32:29,614
She was watching them trying
to resuscitate her,

660
00:32:29,614 --> 00:32:33,034
and she floated up through
the floors of the hospital

661
00:32:33,034 --> 00:32:34,661
to the roof of the hospital.

662
00:32:34,661 --> 00:32:41,209
♪ ♪

663
00:32:41,209 --> 00:32:45,130
When she came back
into her body,

664
00:32:45,130 --> 00:32:47,132
and was telling people
about this, she said,

665
00:32:47,132 --> 00:32:50,135
"By the way,
while I was floating up there,

666
00:32:50,135 --> 00:32:52,596
"on the third-floor ledge
of the hospital,

667
00:32:52,596 --> 00:32:55,307
"there's
a man's blue tennis shoe

668
00:32:55,307 --> 00:32:58,810
"with some wearing
over the little toe area,

669
00:32:58,810 --> 00:33:03,023
"and it's sitting on that ledge

670
00:33:03,023 --> 00:33:06,109
with the shoelace
underneath the heel."

671
00:33:06,109 --> 00:33:13,283
♪ ♪

672
00:33:14,201 --> 00:33:16,620
Well, then they go up,
and they find,

673
00:33:16,620 --> 00:33:18,872
yes, here it is,
exactly as she said.

674
00:33:18,872 --> 00:33:25,962
♪ ♪

675
00:33:26,504 --> 00:33:27,923
That's corroboration.

676
00:33:27,923 --> 00:33:31,092
That is something
she could not have known

677
00:33:31,092 --> 00:33:34,179
if she didn't have
a real out-of-body experience.

678
00:33:38,808 --> 00:33:41,645
♪ ♪

679
00:33:41,645 --> 00:33:45,190
- I think at first,
John decided to write

680
00:33:45,190 --> 00:33:47,442
about the NDEs and about Heaven

681
00:33:47,442 --> 00:33:50,195
using the near-death
experiences as part of it.

682
00:33:50,195 --> 00:33:53,657
We knew that it was gonna get
a lot of resistance.

683
00:33:53,657 --> 00:33:59,246
And we knew
that people would maybe think

684
00:33:59,246 --> 00:34:02,499
that we were going
away from Scripture,

685
00:34:02,499 --> 00:34:05,794
or even some
of our pastor friends

686
00:34:05,794 --> 00:34:07,629
might not understand

687
00:34:07,629 --> 00:34:11,258
because nobody was really
taking theology of Heaven

688
00:34:11,258 --> 00:34:12,926
and the near-death experiences

689
00:34:12,926 --> 00:34:16,012
and showing how
they can line up.

690
00:34:16,012 --> 00:34:18,181
♪ ♪

691
00:34:18,181 --> 00:34:20,475
You know, John actually gave
a talk on this

692
00:34:20,475 --> 00:34:22,477
back in the late '80s

693
00:34:22,477 --> 00:34:24,646
at the University
of California, Santa Barbara.

694
00:34:24,646 --> 00:34:26,231
The Christian community
was giving a lot

695
00:34:26,231 --> 00:34:27,816
of pushback to this.

696
00:34:27,816 --> 00:34:30,193
People that were sharing
their near-death stories

697
00:34:30,193 --> 00:34:33,571
did not get well-received.

698
00:34:33,571 --> 00:34:36,199
And in many cases,
they were judged

699
00:34:36,199 --> 00:34:38,326
for what they had experienced.

700
00:34:38,326 --> 00:34:45,250
♪ ♪

701
00:34:56,177 --> 00:35:01,766
- My 35 years of research have
completely changed my view

702
00:35:01,766 --> 00:35:04,144
from what it was earlier on

703
00:35:04,144 --> 00:35:07,439
of what the life to come
is gonna be like.

704
00:35:07,439 --> 00:35:10,942
What I've realized is
that every good thing

705
00:35:10,942 --> 00:35:13,361
that we experience
on this Earth,

706
00:35:13,361 --> 00:35:16,906
everything we love--
first of all, God created it,

707
00:35:16,906 --> 00:35:18,867
and that's why we love it.

708
00:35:18,867 --> 00:35:22,620
He created it for us
to enjoy it and to love it.

709
00:35:22,620 --> 00:35:26,124
But all of it is just a shadow
of the real thing

710
00:35:26,124 --> 00:35:29,044
that he created us
to enjoy in Heaven.

711
00:35:29,044 --> 00:35:31,921
So all of this life
is just a shadow

712
00:35:31,921 --> 00:35:36,134
of the real one we were meant
to experience, relationally,

713
00:35:36,134 --> 00:35:39,804
with beauty,
with fun and excitement,

714
00:35:39,804 --> 00:35:42,974
with work and pleasure,
with all of it.

715
00:35:42,974 --> 00:35:44,768
I mean,
the best is yet to come.

716
00:35:44,768 --> 00:35:47,604
♪ ♪

717
00:35:47,604 --> 00:35:51,358
In the over a thousand
near-death experiences

718
00:35:51,358 --> 00:35:53,068
I've studied,

719
00:35:53,068 --> 00:35:56,821
it's this incredible picture
of how, when we die,

720
00:35:56,821 --> 00:36:00,909
we leave our natural bodies,
but we're still ourselves.

721
00:36:00,909 --> 00:36:03,787
We have spiritual bodies,
and not with five senses,

722
00:36:03,787 --> 00:36:06,122
more like 50 senses.

723
00:36:06,122 --> 00:36:09,084
It's life on steroids.

724
00:36:09,084 --> 00:36:12,545
It's life beyond anything
we've experienced.

725
00:36:12,545 --> 00:36:14,881
The colors
that people talk about

726
00:36:14,881 --> 00:36:17,550
are the color spectrums
far beyond Earth,

727
00:36:17,550 --> 00:36:19,177
but that's what
you would expect

728
00:36:19,177 --> 00:36:21,137
because the color spectrum
of Earth

729
00:36:21,137 --> 00:36:22,847
is the color spectrum
of the sun,

730
00:36:22,847 --> 00:36:24,724
but the color spectrum
of Heaven

731
00:36:24,724 --> 00:36:26,226
is the color spectrum of God.

732
00:36:26,226 --> 00:36:28,812
♪ ♪

733
00:36:28,812 --> 00:36:31,356
There's this great
welcoming committee

734
00:36:31,356 --> 00:36:33,441
of people who have
passed on before them,

735
00:36:33,441 --> 00:36:34,943
who are there to welcome them.

736
00:36:34,943 --> 00:36:38,822
And Jesus said,
"Use your Earthly resources,

737
00:36:38,822 --> 00:36:41,157
"you know, to make friends,
so that when you die,

738
00:36:41,157 --> 00:36:43,743
they will welcome you
into eternal dwellings."

739
00:36:43,743 --> 00:36:48,039
It's gonna be life
and beauty not unlike Earth.

740
00:36:48,039 --> 00:36:49,582
You know,
there are mountains,

741
00:36:49,582 --> 00:36:52,043
and flowers,
and trees, and streams,

742
00:36:52,043 --> 00:36:53,962
and all of that's talked about
in the Book of Isaiah

743
00:36:53,962 --> 00:36:55,630
and the Book of Revelation.

744
00:36:55,630 --> 00:36:58,508
And that's exactly what
near-death experiencers

745
00:36:58,508 --> 00:37:01,469
talk about,
except they experience it

746
00:37:01,469 --> 00:37:04,556
in expanded dimensions
of space,

747
00:37:04,556 --> 00:37:07,225
more than three dimensions
of space,

748
00:37:07,225 --> 00:37:10,937
and more dimensions of time,
just like it says in the Bible.

749
00:37:10,937 --> 00:37:12,856
♪ ♪

750
00:37:12,856 --> 00:37:15,900
The greatest experience
on Earth is just like

751
00:37:15,900 --> 00:37:18,236
a tiny taste compared
to the feast

752
00:37:18,236 --> 00:37:20,530
that I believe
God has prepared for us,

753
00:37:20,530 --> 00:37:23,950
and I can't wait to discover
all these new things.

754
00:37:23,950 --> 00:37:27,662
I mean, imagine a universe
of billions of stars

755
00:37:27,662 --> 00:37:30,457
and planets that we thought
were beyond our reach,

756
00:37:30,457 --> 00:37:35,128
but what if, in a thought,
we can go explore them?

757
00:37:35,128 --> 00:37:38,965
Endless, endless exploration.

758
00:37:38,965 --> 00:37:40,842
♪ ♪

759
00:37:40,842 --> 00:37:43,803
[upbeat music]

760
00:37:43,803 --> 00:37:50,727
♪ ♪

761
00:37:59,777 --> 00:38:02,530
- I remember one day,
on the fourth floor newsroom

762
00:38:02,530 --> 00:38:04,824
of the "Chicago Tribune,"
one of the copy editors

763
00:38:04,824 --> 00:38:07,202
walked all the way
across the newspaper

764
00:38:07,202 --> 00:38:08,870
and looked at me and said,

765
00:38:08,870 --> 00:38:10,872
"Strobel, you're not
the best writer in the world,

766
00:38:10,872 --> 00:38:13,541
but doggone it,
you're a clear writer."

767
00:38:13,541 --> 00:38:15,502
And to me, that was
the biggest compliment

768
00:38:15,502 --> 00:38:17,420
'cause that's what I think
good writing really is.

769
00:38:17,420 --> 00:38:23,885
♪ ♪

770
00:38:23,885 --> 00:38:26,179
This really represents to me,
as you say,

771
00:38:26,179 --> 00:38:28,139
the pinnacle
of my journalism career.

772
00:38:28,139 --> 00:38:30,850
I mean, this is back
when newspapers mattered.

773
00:38:30,850 --> 00:38:32,602
This is back
when our daily circulation was

774
00:38:32,602 --> 00:38:34,604
almost a million every day.

775
00:38:34,604 --> 00:38:36,689
This was back when
everybody got the newspaper.

776
00:38:36,689 --> 00:38:38,066
It made a big difference.

777
00:38:38,066 --> 00:38:39,442
And to know
that you could write an article

778
00:38:39,442 --> 00:38:41,486
that could change the city,

779
00:38:41,486 --> 00:38:43,947
that could end up
with people getting locked up

780
00:38:43,947 --> 00:38:45,907
in prison because of crimes

781
00:38:45,907 --> 00:38:47,534
that had never
been exposed before,

782
00:38:47,534 --> 00:38:49,827
political corruption
and so forth.

783
00:38:49,827 --> 00:38:52,747
You had a lot
of influence back then

784
00:38:52,747 --> 00:38:54,290
that newspapers
really don't have today.

785
00:38:54,290 --> 00:38:57,710
♪ ♪

786
00:38:57,710 --> 00:38:59,671
I just felt that,

787
00:38:59,671 --> 00:39:01,422
if I could
get a front-page byline

788
00:39:01,422 --> 00:39:03,007
in the "Chicago Tribune,"

789
00:39:03,007 --> 00:39:05,009
which I had by the end of
my first week at the "Tribune,"

790
00:39:05,009 --> 00:39:06,719
I had a front-page byline,

791
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,681
that sort of established
my credibility,

792
00:39:09,681 --> 00:39:11,808
and it showed that I
made something of myself,

793
00:39:11,808 --> 00:39:13,351
that I was successful,

794
00:39:13,351 --> 00:39:15,186
that I was making
a difference,

795
00:39:15,186 --> 00:39:16,521
that I was climbing
the ladder,

796
00:39:16,521 --> 00:39:18,481
that I was
on the road to success.

797
00:39:18,481 --> 00:39:20,984
All that was represented
by that little byline

798
00:39:20,984 --> 00:39:22,986
on the front page
of the "Tribune."

799
00:39:22,986 --> 00:39:29,909
♪ ♪

800
00:39:39,752 --> 00:39:41,713
[sighs]

801
00:39:44,090 --> 00:39:46,759
Everyone wants to be remembered
by something, huh?

802
00:39:46,759 --> 00:39:53,683
♪ ♪

803
00:39:58,771 --> 00:40:00,815
Before I got
into skateboarding,

804
00:40:00,815 --> 00:40:03,610
I was really heavily into BMX,
and bikes, and motorcycles,

805
00:40:03,610 --> 00:40:06,821
obviously because I was
a huge fan of Evel Knievel,

806
00:40:06,821 --> 00:40:09,657
and the only way that we
can emulate Evel Knievel

807
00:40:09,657 --> 00:40:11,200
was on a bicycle.

808
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:12,535
You know, I used
to put the card in the spokes

809
00:40:12,535 --> 00:40:13,995
to try to make
it sound like a motor.

810
00:40:13,995 --> 00:40:16,456
I used to buy
these plastic gas tanks

811
00:40:16,456 --> 00:40:20,251
to put over my bike to make
it look like a motorcycle.

812
00:40:20,251 --> 00:40:23,129
We used to make ramps to try
to jump over garbage cans,

813
00:40:23,129 --> 00:40:25,548
pretend like
we're jumping cars.

814
00:40:25,548 --> 00:40:27,800
I chose skateboarding

815
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,304
because it really didn't matter
how big you were,

816
00:40:31,304 --> 00:40:33,514
how strong you were, how tall.

817
00:40:33,514 --> 00:40:38,436
♪ ♪

818
00:40:42,774 --> 00:40:45,318
No, didn't fear God at all.

819
00:40:45,318 --> 00:40:46,944
I didn't believe in God,
really,

820
00:40:46,944 --> 00:40:49,238
you know, so at that time,

821
00:40:49,238 --> 00:40:52,784
I didn't really care whether
I was going to Heaven or Hell,

822
00:40:52,784 --> 00:40:54,744
or even thought about it.

823
00:40:54,744 --> 00:40:57,664
I had a conversation
with an old teammate

824
00:40:57,664 --> 00:40:59,499
from the Bones Brigade days.

825
00:40:59,499 --> 00:41:01,042
His name is Lance Mountain.

826
00:41:01,042 --> 00:41:03,544
He was a teammate of mine
on Powell Peralta,

827
00:41:03,544 --> 00:41:05,338
and he's been
a devout Christian

828
00:41:05,338 --> 00:41:09,592
ever since I've known him,
since the late '70s.

829
00:41:09,592 --> 00:41:13,221
And I remember,
I was in his car,

830
00:41:13,221 --> 00:41:14,514
and we were having a debate,

831
00:41:14,514 --> 00:41:17,433
argument about God
and about science.

832
00:41:17,433 --> 00:41:21,354
And I don't
really remember for sure

833
00:41:21,354 --> 00:41:23,231
specifically what
we were talking about,

834
00:41:23,231 --> 00:41:25,566
but basically,
I told straight up--I said,

835
00:41:25,566 --> 00:41:28,277
"Hey, Lance, you know,

836
00:41:28,277 --> 00:41:31,072
"I know you want to try
to show me something about God,

837
00:41:31,072 --> 00:41:36,244
"and try to make me understand,
but I'm not going to,

838
00:41:36,244 --> 00:41:39,455
"you know,

839
00:41:39,455 --> 00:41:43,084
"even think about God
or give God the time of day

840
00:41:43,084 --> 00:41:44,585
"unless he reveals himself
to me.

841
00:41:44,585 --> 00:41:46,629
"And once he reveals
himself to me,

842
00:41:46,629 --> 00:41:50,299
then I'll look into it."

843
00:41:50,299 --> 00:41:52,719
And sure enough,
six months later,

844
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,471
he revealed himself,
you know, to me in a big way.

845
00:41:55,471 --> 00:42:01,477
♪ ♪

846
00:42:01,477 --> 00:42:05,106
I just remember
just having my eyes closed,

847
00:42:05,106 --> 00:42:07,817
and then just hearing
this voice in my head.

848
00:42:07,817 --> 00:42:09,986
Call my sister-in-law Kathy,

849
00:42:09,986 --> 00:42:13,489
who's married
to my brother Eddie.

850
00:42:13,489 --> 00:42:16,033
Out of the blue, I'm like,
"Where did that come from?"

851
00:42:16,033 --> 00:42:17,618
You know?

852
00:42:17,618 --> 00:42:19,704
And so I did, you know,

853
00:42:19,704 --> 00:42:22,165
'cause I trusted
that voice in my head.

854
00:42:22,165 --> 00:42:23,624
And I said, "You know what?
She's gonna give me

855
00:42:23,624 --> 00:42:26,711
the answers that I need."

856
00:42:26,711 --> 00:42:29,380
You know, I had just gone
through a divorce.

857
00:42:29,380 --> 00:42:32,133
You know, I was dating.

858
00:42:32,133 --> 00:42:34,427
You know, I wanted
something solid again.

859
00:42:34,427 --> 00:42:40,558
And I got together
with this woman,

860
00:42:40,558 --> 00:42:42,643
and shared a relationship
with her,

861
00:42:42,643 --> 00:42:44,979
and--which
was built on trust,

862
00:42:44,979 --> 00:42:48,274
you know, and the trust
was broken months later.

863
00:42:48,274 --> 00:42:52,195
I just really couldn't really
understand being 40 years old

864
00:42:52,195 --> 00:42:54,864
and dealing
with this drama relationship.

865
00:42:54,864 --> 00:42:57,575
And I'm hurt, you know?
I'm sad.

866
00:42:59,118 --> 00:43:01,037
I was sad.

867
00:43:09,462 --> 00:43:12,548
Even after all this time,
it still hurts.

868
00:43:15,218 --> 00:43:18,012
But she told me--she said,

869
00:43:18,012 --> 00:43:22,016
"Steven, you know,

870
00:43:22,016 --> 00:43:25,728
"you've had
all this success, you know.

871
00:43:25,728 --> 00:43:29,315
"You're a famous skateboarder.
You've done so well.

872
00:43:29,315 --> 00:43:32,735
But there's something missing
in your life, you know."

873
00:43:35,238 --> 00:43:37,156
And I had a feeling
she was gonna say

874
00:43:37,156 --> 00:43:40,034
that I needed Jesus
in my life

875
00:43:40,034 --> 00:43:42,203
'cause I was calling her
for the answers.

876
00:43:42,203 --> 00:43:47,500
And so I was ready to hear it.

877
00:43:47,500 --> 00:43:53,130
My heart was
not a heart anymore.

878
00:43:53,130 --> 00:43:59,011
And it turned out to be one

879
00:43:59,011 --> 00:44:01,389
of the greatest decisions
I've made in my whole life.

880
00:44:01,389 --> 00:44:04,350
[soft music]

881
00:44:04,350 --> 00:44:06,686
♪ ♪

882
00:44:13,442 --> 00:44:14,819
Okay, yeah.

883
00:44:15,528 --> 00:44:17,071
- I wrote it
with two friends of mine,

884
00:44:17,071 --> 00:44:19,156
Jason Ingram
and Matt Bronleewe, yeah.

885
00:44:21,117 --> 00:44:23,286
- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah.

886
00:44:26,372 --> 00:44:28,624
Yeah, yeah.

887
00:44:46,601 --> 00:44:47,727
Yeah.

888
00:44:50,104 --> 00:44:54,275
- Yeah, When I look back at,
like, Hawk Nelson songs

889
00:44:54,275 --> 00:44:58,237
I was a part of writing,
I feel complicated about it.

890
00:44:58,237 --> 00:45:01,532
♪ A little louder,
open your heart ♪

891
00:45:01,532 --> 00:45:04,577
♪ It's time
that we start again ♪

892
00:45:04,577 --> 00:45:06,329
Sing it out!

893
00:45:06,329 --> 00:45:09,373
On one hand, I'm really proud
of the work that we did.

894
00:45:09,373 --> 00:45:11,834
♪ Love can go, just how deep ♪

895
00:45:11,834 --> 00:45:14,670
Our goal was always
to really encourage people.

896
00:45:14,670 --> 00:45:16,339
And that's still my goal.

897
00:45:16,339 --> 00:45:20,217
So in a sense, there's
a throughline there for me.

898
00:45:20,217 --> 00:45:24,680
♪ He says,
"I am for you," yeah ♪

899
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,850
♪ "I'm not against you" ♪

900
00:45:27,850 --> 00:45:34,857
♪ ♪

901
00:45:34,857 --> 00:45:37,193
Thank you, EO!

902
00:45:37,193 --> 00:45:39,904
We love you so much!

903
00:45:39,904 --> 00:45:43,866
♪ ♪

904
00:45:43,866 --> 00:45:45,451
I grew up

905
00:45:45,451 --> 00:45:47,745
in a very charismatic
evangelical setting.

906
00:45:47,745 --> 00:45:49,288
My dad's a pastor.

907
00:45:49,288 --> 00:45:53,626
And he was pastoring a church
in southern Ontario

908
00:45:53,626 --> 00:45:56,420
for a lot of the years
of my childhood.

909
00:45:56,420 --> 00:45:58,297
As I was growing up,

910
00:45:58,297 --> 00:46:00,091
I got really interested
in music.

911
00:46:00,091 --> 00:46:04,345
My musical education was very
much in, like, worship teams,

912
00:46:04,345 --> 00:46:06,806
and being a worship leader,
and that kind of thing.

913
00:46:06,806 --> 00:46:09,433
And I ended up joining
this band, Hawk Nelson.

914
00:46:09,433 --> 00:46:12,937
♪ ♪

915
00:46:12,937 --> 00:46:15,856
♪ Here and now,
I'm in the fire ♪

916
00:46:15,856 --> 00:46:18,401
♪ In above my head ♪

917
00:46:18,401 --> 00:46:21,070
Yeah, the idea
that it could be a career

918
00:46:21,070 --> 00:46:24,532
was like a dream
that was, like, worth chasing,

919
00:46:24,532 --> 00:46:26,450
even if it felt unlikely.

920
00:46:26,450 --> 00:46:29,245
But it did become something
that I did for a career

921
00:46:29,245 --> 00:46:31,163
for, you know, 15, 16 years.

922
00:46:39,338 --> 00:46:42,758
- I think, as I was
writing that stuff,

923
00:46:42,758 --> 00:46:47,763
it, for me, represented
what I wanted to believe.

924
00:46:47,763 --> 00:46:51,600
And when you want to believe
something really deeply,

925
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:56,105
you have periods of time
where you sort of can, right?

926
00:46:56,105 --> 00:46:58,983
Like, you sort of can believe
that this is true,

927
00:46:58,983 --> 00:47:01,152
and you have experiences,

928
00:47:01,152 --> 00:47:02,778
and you interpret them
through that lens,

929
00:47:02,778 --> 00:47:04,155
and you go, like, "Oh, yeah!

930
00:47:04,155 --> 00:47:06,866
"Like, God does love me
this much.

931
00:47:06,866 --> 00:47:09,660
And I had this experience,
and I kind of felt it."

932
00:47:09,660 --> 00:47:11,537
You know, sometimes,
I think there's a trope

933
00:47:11,537 --> 00:47:14,665
that gets trotted out that,
like, oh, well, like,

934
00:47:14,665 --> 00:47:16,959
people choose not to believe
in God 'cause they just want

935
00:47:16,959 --> 00:47:20,046
to go do some sinnin',
and, like, that was not me.

936
00:47:20,046 --> 00:47:22,214
I, like--I really wanted
to believe.

937
00:47:22,214 --> 00:47:23,591
And the more I read
and learned,

938
00:47:23,591 --> 00:47:24,925
the more I just found

939
00:47:24,925 --> 00:47:25,968
that it was difficult
for me to believe.

940
00:47:25,968 --> 00:47:28,679
So that culminated in me

941
00:47:28,679 --> 00:47:31,057
finally feeling
like I really needed

942
00:47:31,057 --> 00:47:33,225
to say something publicly
because I had been talking

943
00:47:33,225 --> 00:47:35,936
about my faith publicly
for so many years

944
00:47:35,936 --> 00:47:39,732
that to talk
about this only privately,

945
00:47:39,732 --> 00:47:42,359
and to hide it publicly,
felt really disingenuous to me.

946
00:47:42,359 --> 00:47:44,779
So I finally wrote this post.

947
00:47:44,779 --> 00:47:47,948
I posted it
on Instagram May 20 of 2020.

948
00:47:47,948 --> 00:47:50,242
And I said,

949
00:47:50,242 --> 00:47:52,119
"I'm finding that
I no longer believe in God,

950
00:47:52,119 --> 00:47:54,038
and here's why."

951
00:47:54,038 --> 00:47:58,125
And it was terrifying
to post that

952
00:47:58,125 --> 00:48:00,086
'cause I knew
my life would change.

953
00:48:00,086 --> 00:48:02,671
And I knew it was
gonna affect my family.

954
00:48:02,671 --> 00:48:04,465
I knew it was gonna affect,
you know,

955
00:48:04,465 --> 00:48:09,178
like, my parents, my siblings,
guys I'd been in a band with.

956
00:48:09,178 --> 00:48:12,515
So you know,
I remember posting it,

957
00:48:12,515 --> 00:48:14,100
and then, you know,
I hit Post,

958
00:48:14,100 --> 00:48:15,601
and then I literally
put the phone down and,

959
00:48:15,601 --> 00:48:17,770
like, walked away,
and I was like, "Ahh!"

960
00:48:17,770 --> 00:48:19,522
You know, I think I
probably had a beer or two

961
00:48:19,522 --> 00:48:20,689
and, like, relaxed.

962
00:48:20,689 --> 00:48:22,441
You know, like,
I need to chill.

963
00:48:22,441 --> 00:48:25,486
But the response was
really interesting.

964
00:48:25,486 --> 00:48:31,367
♪ ♪

965
00:48:31,367 --> 00:48:33,953
I had a lot of my Christian
friends though,

966
00:48:33,953 --> 00:48:37,164
who were very kind
and supportive.

967
00:48:37,164 --> 00:48:38,958
And while they didn't agree

968
00:48:38,958 --> 00:48:41,544
with where I was at
or my conclusions,

969
00:48:41,544 --> 00:48:43,629
they still cared
about me as a person.

970
00:48:43,629 --> 00:48:46,465
And I really appreciated that.

971
00:48:46,465 --> 00:48:49,218
And then I also had
a ton of people

972
00:48:49,218 --> 00:48:50,845
who messaged me privately,

973
00:48:50,845 --> 00:48:53,222
and, like, in the first
two weeks after that post,

974
00:48:53,222 --> 00:48:57,643
I probably got 10,000 messages
from people saying something

975
00:48:57,643 --> 00:49:00,646
along the lines of,
"I'm wondering some

976
00:49:00,646 --> 00:49:02,189
"of the same things
you're wondering,

977
00:49:02,189 --> 00:49:04,150
and I thought
I was the only one."

978
00:49:04,150 --> 00:49:10,030
♪ ♪

979
00:49:10,030 --> 00:49:14,326
You know, God--if he's real,
he has chosen to make himself

980
00:49:14,326 --> 00:49:17,288
hidden in such a way
that we could plausibly say,

981
00:49:17,288 --> 00:49:19,290
"I don't even know
if God's there."

982
00:49:19,290 --> 00:49:26,130
And then, with that in mind,
in Christianity,

983
00:49:26,130 --> 00:49:28,841
we're often told, well,
now you have to make a belief

984
00:49:28,841 --> 00:49:31,802
that God is there,
you have to make a decision,

985
00:49:31,802 --> 00:49:35,347
and you have to affirm God's
existence and his--you know,

986
00:49:35,347 --> 00:49:37,558
Jesus' lordship in your life.

987
00:49:37,558 --> 00:49:39,143
And if you don't do that,

988
00:49:39,143 --> 00:49:40,895
you're gonna burn
in Hell forever.

989
00:49:40,895 --> 00:49:44,231
And I just go,
as a father, like,

990
00:49:44,231 --> 00:49:50,070
would I make myself hidden
to my son who I love dearly?

991
00:49:50,070 --> 00:49:54,325
Would I hide myself
from him his entire life,

992
00:49:54,325 --> 00:49:57,286
and then
if he denies my existence

993
00:49:57,286 --> 00:49:59,747
or doesn't, like,
love me enough,

994
00:49:59,747 --> 00:50:02,416
or the right way, or believe
the right things about me,

995
00:50:02,416 --> 00:50:04,168
burn him forever?

996
00:50:04,168 --> 00:50:06,503
Like, no one would look
at a parent

997
00:50:06,503 --> 00:50:09,089
and say, like,
"That's a good parent."

998
00:50:09,089 --> 00:50:11,884
And, you know,
that's one of the reasons

999
00:50:11,884 --> 00:50:16,180
that I just--I cannot believe
in this whole structure

1000
00:50:16,180 --> 00:50:19,475
of way of looking
at God and eternity.

1001
00:50:19,475 --> 00:50:21,310
It just doesn't work for me.

1002
00:50:21,310 --> 00:50:24,396
And if that is true,
that God is not loving.

1003
00:50:24,396 --> 00:50:28,984
♪ ♪

1004
00:50:28,984 --> 00:50:33,364
I think some people have a lot
of anxiety about Hell.

1005
00:50:33,364 --> 00:50:35,324
If we're gonna believe

1006
00:50:35,324 --> 00:50:37,534
that there is
this eternal conscious torment

1007
00:50:37,534 --> 00:50:40,120
that's a punishment for not
believing the right things,

1008
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:43,832
then it's sort of like
there's a gun to your head.

1009
00:50:43,832 --> 00:50:48,587
I don't believe that an
all-powerful and all-loving God

1010
00:50:48,587 --> 00:50:51,548
is compatible with the idea
of Hell in the way

1011
00:50:51,548 --> 00:50:53,008
that we often think about it.

1012
00:50:53,008 --> 00:50:55,386
I think those two things
are incompatible.

1013
00:50:59,556 --> 00:51:03,811
- I have absolutely no idea
what happens after we die.

1014
00:51:03,811 --> 00:51:06,355
I haven't been there.

1015
00:51:06,355 --> 00:51:13,279
♪ ♪

1016
00:51:18,284 --> 00:51:19,994
- What would you say
to someone

1017
00:51:19,994 --> 00:51:21,662
whose loved one died,

1018
00:51:21,662 --> 00:51:24,081
and they don't know
whether they accepted Christ?

1019
00:51:24,081 --> 00:51:26,166
What do you say to that?

1020
00:51:26,166 --> 00:51:27,918
- You know,
the truth is, we don't know

1021
00:51:27,918 --> 00:51:29,878
what happens
in those final moments

1022
00:51:29,878 --> 00:51:31,630
before a person dies.

1023
00:51:31,630 --> 00:51:33,882
We don't know how many people
call out to God

1024
00:51:33,882 --> 00:51:36,385
and say "save me"
in those final moments.

1025
00:51:36,385 --> 00:51:39,179
My brother was an atheist,
an outspoken atheist,

1026
00:51:39,179 --> 00:51:43,559
virtually his entire life,
and he died not long ago,

1027
00:51:43,559 --> 00:51:45,811
right at the beginning
of the COVID crisis.

1028
00:51:45,811 --> 00:51:47,896
I don't know what happened
in that day.

1029
00:51:47,896 --> 00:51:51,692
I hope he reached out to God,
but I don't know.

1030
00:51:51,692 --> 00:51:53,694
I'll find out
someday in Heaven.

1031
00:51:53,694 --> 00:52:00,617
♪ ♪

1032
00:53:05,516 --> 00:53:08,394
You know, C.S. Lewis said
if there was any doctrine

1033
00:53:08,394 --> 00:53:11,563
of Christianity he wishes
he could change or eliminate,

1034
00:53:11,563 --> 00:53:13,899
it would be Hell,
and I get that.

1035
00:53:13,899 --> 00:53:15,734
It's a difficult concept.

1036
00:53:15,734 --> 00:53:18,404
It's much better and more fun
to talk about Heaven, I think.

1037
00:53:18,404 --> 00:53:20,614
But there are a lot
of misconceptions

1038
00:53:20,614 --> 00:53:22,574
about Hell
that confuse people.

1039
00:53:22,574 --> 00:53:26,286
First of all, God does not
send people to Hell.

1040
00:53:26,286 --> 00:53:29,498
In a sense,
we send ourselves to Hell.

1041
00:53:29,498 --> 00:53:31,250
The Bible says explicitly
that God

1042
00:53:31,250 --> 00:53:33,252
does not want anyone to perish.

1043
00:53:33,252 --> 00:53:34,878
He wants everyone
to come to repentance.

1044
00:53:34,878 --> 00:53:36,463
He wants everyone
to come to faith.

1045
00:53:36,463 --> 00:53:39,466
He wants everyone
to experience Heaven

1046
00:53:39,466 --> 00:53:42,302
with him forever,
but like any gift,

1047
00:53:42,302 --> 00:53:44,388
it's only ours
when we receive it.

1048
00:53:44,388 --> 00:53:46,807
You know,
God gave us free will.

1049
00:53:46,807 --> 00:53:48,559
It's like, if we're drowning,

1050
00:53:48,559 --> 00:53:50,310
and someone throws us
a life preserver,

1051
00:53:50,310 --> 00:53:52,563
it's up to us whether we want
to clutch it or not.

1052
00:53:52,563 --> 00:53:54,231
And so we have free will.

1053
00:53:54,231 --> 00:53:56,316
We could decide we want
to live without God,

1054
00:53:56,316 --> 00:53:58,485
we want to ignore God,
we want to reject God,

1055
00:53:58,485 --> 00:54:00,696
we want to live in a way

1056
00:54:00,696 --> 00:54:02,281
that we know
God would not approve of,

1057
00:54:02,281 --> 00:54:04,491
so we don't want God
to be part of our lives,

1058
00:54:04,491 --> 00:54:07,161
and we shun him
during our lifetime,

1059
00:54:07,161 --> 00:54:10,080
and at the end of our life,
God will say to us,

1060
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:13,125
"You chose to be separate
from me your entire life,

1061
00:54:13,125 --> 00:54:17,713
and now you will be separated
from me for eternity in Hell."

1062
00:54:17,713 --> 00:54:20,257
♪ ♪

1063
00:54:20,257 --> 00:54:22,551
Hell is not a torture chamber.

1064
00:54:22,551 --> 00:54:25,846
Torture is imposed
from without.

1065
00:54:25,846 --> 00:54:29,725
Hell is more about torment,
where it comes from within.

1066
00:54:29,725 --> 00:54:31,560
It's a sense of regret.
It's a sense a anger.

1067
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:33,312
It's a sense of loss.

1068
00:54:33,312 --> 00:54:36,607
It's a sense of suffering
that people have

1069
00:54:36,607 --> 00:54:39,485
because of the predicament
that they find themselves in,

1070
00:54:39,485 --> 00:54:41,820
that they themselves
have opened the door to.

1071
00:54:41,820 --> 00:54:44,323
♪ ♪

1072
00:54:44,323 --> 00:54:46,200
People think that Hell is

1073
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:48,869
kind of a one-size-fits-all
experience.

1074
00:54:48,869 --> 00:54:52,456
And yet, we know from
the New Testament of the Bible

1075
00:54:52,456 --> 00:54:56,710
that people--their experience
in Hell will be proportionate

1076
00:54:56,710 --> 00:54:58,462
to how they lived their life.

1077
00:54:58,462 --> 00:55:00,380
In other words,
Adolf Hitler's experience

1078
00:55:00,380 --> 00:55:02,883
in Hell is not gonna be
the same as my neighbor,

1079
00:55:02,883 --> 00:55:05,010
who may be an atheist,

1080
00:55:05,010 --> 00:55:06,970
who doesn't want anything
to do with God,

1081
00:55:06,970 --> 00:55:08,639
has rejected God
his whole life.

1082
00:55:08,639 --> 00:55:10,432
His experience in Hell
and Adolf Hitler's

1083
00:55:10,432 --> 00:55:11,892
are gonna be quite different.

1084
00:55:11,892 --> 00:55:14,686
I think that matches
the fairness of God.

1085
00:55:14,686 --> 00:55:16,688
You know, the Bible says,
"Will not the judge

1086
00:55:16,688 --> 00:55:18,732
of all the Earth
do what's right?"

1087
00:55:18,732 --> 00:55:22,277
And nobody
after being judged by God

1088
00:55:22,277 --> 00:55:24,780
will be able to legitimately
shake their fist at God

1089
00:55:24,780 --> 00:55:26,865
and say that was unfair.

1090
00:55:26,865 --> 00:55:30,869
We will ultimately see
the fairness of God.

1091
00:55:30,869 --> 00:55:34,623
♪ ♪

1092
00:55:34,623 --> 00:55:37,584
Another misconception involves
the figurative language

1093
00:55:37,584 --> 00:55:39,795
that the Bible uses
to describe Hell.

1094
00:55:39,795 --> 00:55:44,258
For instance, it uses metaphors
like flames and like darkness.

1095
00:55:44,258 --> 00:55:46,009
But those are
clearly metaphors.

1096
00:55:46,009 --> 00:55:47,427
They're not literally true

1097
00:55:47,427 --> 00:55:49,263
because if they
were literally true,

1098
00:55:49,263 --> 00:55:51,515
the flames would light up
the darkness,

1099
00:55:51,515 --> 00:55:53,308
so that doesn't make sense.

1100
00:55:53,308 --> 00:55:55,769
And so I don't
think that Hell is a place

1101
00:55:55,769 --> 00:55:59,940
of excessive thermal output,
in other words.

1102
00:55:59,940 --> 00:56:04,361
And yet, metaphors are intended
to point us to a broader truth

1103
00:56:04,361 --> 00:56:06,655
that we may not be able
to fully comprehend yet,

1104
00:56:06,655 --> 00:56:08,532
and that broader truth is,

1105
00:56:08,532 --> 00:56:11,952
Hell is
the very worst situation

1106
00:56:11,952 --> 00:56:15,122
that anybody could
ever find themselves in.

1107
00:56:19,251 --> 00:56:24,548
- June 1, 1985,
at Hotel De Lima,

1108
00:56:24,548 --> 00:56:27,759
Rue Saint-Germain,
Paris, France,

1109
00:56:27,759 --> 00:56:30,345
my first thought was
that I'd been shot.

1110
00:56:30,345 --> 00:56:33,640
Because it was like,
right there, bang,

1111
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:36,226
the most acute pain I'd
ever experienced in my life.

1112
00:56:36,226 --> 00:56:37,686
Went to the hospital.

1113
00:56:37,686 --> 00:56:39,730
We went to emergency.

1114
00:56:39,730 --> 00:56:41,648
Two doctors examined me,

1115
00:56:41,648 --> 00:56:44,484
said the same thing that
the doctor at the hotel said:

1116
00:56:44,484 --> 00:56:46,320
I had a perforation
of duodenum,

1117
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:47,988
and that if I didn't have
surgery right away,

1118
00:56:47,988 --> 00:56:49,406
I would die.

1119
00:56:49,406 --> 00:56:52,451
But I didn't want to die
because I knew

1120
00:56:52,451 --> 00:56:55,495
with 100% certainty
that when you die,

1121
00:56:55,495 --> 00:56:57,247
that's it, it's over.

1122
00:56:58,332 --> 00:57:00,125
The screen goes black,

1123
00:57:00,125 --> 00:57:02,169
like in the movie theater,
you know?

1124
00:57:02,169 --> 00:57:05,464
Says "the end,"
blackness, nothing.

1125
00:57:05,464 --> 00:57:07,633
I was 38 years old.
I had a wife.

1126
00:57:07,633 --> 00:57:09,343
I had two kids.
I had a good job.

1127
00:57:09,343 --> 00:57:10,677
I had a career.

1128
00:57:10,677 --> 00:57:12,179
I had art galleries
showing my work.

1129
00:57:12,179 --> 00:57:13,388
I was winning prizes.

1130
00:57:13,388 --> 00:57:15,223
You know, I was making money.

1131
00:57:15,223 --> 00:57:16,725
This is not right.

1132
00:57:16,725 --> 00:57:19,394
This is not time for me to die.

1133
00:57:19,394 --> 00:57:22,898
I woke from unconsciousness,

1134
00:57:22,898 --> 00:57:24,691
and I was standing
next to the bed,

1135
00:57:24,691 --> 00:57:26,151
and I felt wonderful,

1136
00:57:26,151 --> 00:57:27,986
better than I ever felt
my whole life.

1137
00:57:27,986 --> 00:57:32,866
And I noticed
that the big, dead lump

1138
00:57:32,866 --> 00:57:36,411
in the bed was me.

1139
00:57:36,411 --> 00:57:40,666
♪ ♪

1140
00:57:40,666 --> 00:57:43,377
But I couldn't accept that,
because it's not--I mean,

1141
00:57:43,377 --> 00:57:45,545
that's impossible.

1142
00:57:45,545 --> 00:57:47,798
Then I heard people
outside the room

1143
00:57:47,798 --> 00:57:49,466
calling me
by name in English,

1144
00:57:49,466 --> 00:57:51,968
which I thought was weird
because everybody

1145
00:57:51,968 --> 00:57:54,012
in the French hospital
spoke French.

1146
00:57:54,012 --> 00:57:55,722
And they said, "Hurry up.

1147
00:57:55,722 --> 00:57:59,476
"We've been waiting for you.
We know everything.

1148
00:57:59,476 --> 00:58:00,977
"We've been waiting
and waiting,

1149
00:58:00,977 --> 00:58:02,771
and it's time
for you to come with us."

1150
00:58:02,771 --> 00:58:06,108
So I assumed, since I
had mentioned the doctor,

1151
00:58:06,108 --> 00:58:07,734
that they were gonna take me
to the doctor.

1152
00:58:07,734 --> 00:58:10,487
So I left the light
of the room and went out

1153
00:58:10,487 --> 00:58:14,825
into the very gray,
dank hallway,

1154
00:58:14,825 --> 00:58:16,827
where there was
this group of people

1155
00:58:16,827 --> 00:58:19,329
that stayed back
in the darkness

1156
00:58:19,329 --> 00:58:21,540
away from the light
of the room.

1157
00:58:21,540 --> 00:58:25,085
And they led me what at first
I thought was the hallway,

1158
00:58:25,085 --> 00:58:27,713
but then we walked for miles,
and miles, and miles,

1159
00:58:27,713 --> 00:58:31,550
and we never went up or down.

1160
00:58:31,550 --> 00:58:35,554
We just--they encircled me
and just shepherd me

1161
00:58:35,554 --> 00:58:39,558
into ever-increasing darkness.

1162
00:58:39,558 --> 00:58:43,019
It started off with them
being very officious.

1163
00:58:43,019 --> 00:58:46,982
Like, "This way,
keep moving, hurry up."

1164
00:58:46,982 --> 00:58:52,195
That evolved into,
"What's the matter with you?

1165
00:58:52,195 --> 00:58:55,323
Move, move faster.
You're too slow."

1166
00:58:55,323 --> 00:59:00,162
That became vulgar.

1167
00:59:00,162 --> 00:59:03,749
And then it became clear that
they were gonna have at me.

1168
00:59:03,749 --> 00:59:09,379
They began by kicking,
punching, pulling.

1169
00:59:09,379 --> 00:59:14,217
Then they started biting,
and ripping, and tearing.

1170
00:59:14,217 --> 00:59:18,138
And then they started

1171
00:59:18,138 --> 00:59:21,266
invading me physically.

1172
00:59:21,266 --> 00:59:25,103
So eventually,
I was completely torn apart,

1173
00:59:25,103 --> 00:59:27,564
lying on the ground,
unable to even move

1174
00:59:27,564 --> 00:59:30,901
or defend myself in any way.

1175
00:59:30,901 --> 00:59:35,071
I'm completely defeated,

1176
00:59:35,071 --> 00:59:36,615
completely depressed
and despair.

1177
00:59:36,615 --> 00:59:38,158
And I couldn't think
of any way out.

1178
00:59:38,158 --> 00:59:40,869
This is it forever,
and ever, and ever

1179
00:59:40,869 --> 00:59:43,580
with these horrible people.

1180
00:59:43,580 --> 00:59:46,958
And I heard a voice say,
"Pray to God."

1181
00:59:46,958 --> 00:59:49,461
And I thought,
"I don't believe in God.

1182
00:59:49,461 --> 00:59:51,004
I don't pray."

1183
00:59:51,004 --> 00:59:53,465
And the voice said,
"Pray to God," kind of strong.

1184
00:59:53,465 --> 00:59:56,635
And I thought,
"I don't know how to pray.

1185
00:59:56,635 --> 00:59:58,011
I can't pray."

1186
00:59:58,011 --> 01:00:01,348
And the voice said,
"Pray to God."

1187
01:00:01,348 --> 01:00:03,642
♪ ♪

1188
01:00:03,642 --> 01:00:09,397
My mind went involuntarily
to me as a little boy

1189
01:00:09,397 --> 01:00:13,485
in a Sunday classroom
singing "Jesus Loves Me."

1190
01:00:13,485 --> 01:00:16,905
I could see it vividly.
I could hear it vividly.

1191
01:00:16,905 --> 01:00:19,825
But much more importantly,
I could feel it vividly,

1192
01:00:19,825 --> 01:00:22,577
that as a little boy,
when I sang "Jesus Loved Me,"

1193
01:00:22,577 --> 01:00:26,039
I believed that there was this
really cool guy named Jesus,

1194
01:00:26,039 --> 01:00:27,999
and the lions, and tigers,
and bears would come out

1195
01:00:27,999 --> 01:00:30,961
of the closet, you know,
and start swarming

1196
01:00:30,961 --> 01:00:33,129
around my bedroom
in the middle of the night.

1197
01:00:33,129 --> 01:00:34,506
You know,
I would pray to Jesus,

1198
01:00:34,506 --> 01:00:36,675
and they would all flee.

1199
01:00:36,675 --> 01:00:41,221
♪ ♪

1200
01:00:41,221 --> 01:00:44,474
And I believed
in him as a little boy.

1201
01:00:44,474 --> 01:00:46,434
That's why when I was 12,
I wanted to get baptized

1202
01:00:46,434 --> 01:00:48,979
'cause I wanted to know him.

1203
01:00:48,979 --> 01:00:54,526
And when

1204
01:00:54,526 --> 01:00:57,404
that happened,

1205
01:00:57,404 --> 01:01:00,323
I decided that I needed
to take a chance

1206
01:01:00,323 --> 01:01:04,202
'cause I didn't know
what I did not.

1207
01:01:04,202 --> 01:01:05,954
What I didn't know
is whether he would care

1208
01:01:05,954 --> 01:01:07,414
about me or not.

1209
01:01:07,414 --> 01:01:10,208
As far as I was concerned,
his best option would be

1210
01:01:10,208 --> 01:01:12,419
to leave me there.

1211
01:01:12,419 --> 01:01:18,258
And I called out to him,
"Jesus, please save me."

1212
01:01:18,258 --> 01:01:20,302
and with that, a tiny light
appeared in the darkness

1213
01:01:20,302 --> 01:01:23,179
and got very bright,
and it came upon me.

1214
01:01:23,179 --> 01:01:24,931
It was impossibly brilliant.

1215
01:01:24,931 --> 01:01:27,726
If it had been light
as we experience light

1216
01:01:27,726 --> 01:01:30,145
in this world,
it would have consumed me.

1217
01:01:30,145 --> 01:01:31,980
I mean, I just would
have been burnt up.

1218
01:01:31,980 --> 01:01:34,524
But it was that bright.

1219
01:01:34,524 --> 01:01:37,444
Out of it emerged
hands and arms,

1220
01:01:37,444 --> 01:01:40,280
and he reached down
and touched me,

1221
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:43,491
and I saw myself
come back together

1222
01:01:43,491 --> 01:01:45,911
from the roadkill that I was.

1223
01:01:45,911 --> 01:01:48,705
You know, I became complete.

1224
01:01:48,705 --> 01:01:51,291
And much more important
to me was

1225
01:01:51,291 --> 01:01:53,084
that he filled me
with the love

1226
01:01:53,084 --> 01:01:57,839
that I never experienced
in this world.

1227
01:01:57,839 --> 01:02:02,135
And his hands and arms
picked me up

1228
01:02:02,135 --> 01:02:04,638
without any effort,

1229
01:02:04,638 --> 01:02:07,057
and he brought me
up against himself,

1230
01:02:07,057 --> 01:02:08,808
and put his arms around me,

1231
01:02:08,808 --> 01:02:12,228
to stroke my back
like a mother or father would

1232
01:02:12,228 --> 01:02:14,105
with their child.

1233
01:02:14,105 --> 01:02:17,359
And I cried
out of joy into his chest,

1234
01:02:17,359 --> 01:02:21,321
slobbering all over him.

1235
01:02:21,321 --> 01:02:26,576
The people who took me
into that place of darkness

1236
01:02:26,576 --> 01:02:29,287
were people just like me.

1237
01:02:29,287 --> 01:02:31,665
They were people
who had rejected God,

1238
01:02:31,665 --> 01:02:33,625
rejected God's love,

1239
01:02:33,625 --> 01:02:36,628
and God gave them
exactly what they wanted.

1240
01:02:36,628 --> 01:02:39,506
I don't believe
God punishes anybody.

1241
01:02:39,506 --> 01:02:43,677
I believe God gives everybody
exactly what they want.

1242
01:02:43,677 --> 01:02:47,764
The Bible says
humans judge by appearances,

1243
01:02:47,764 --> 01:02:50,183
God judges by the heart,

1244
01:02:50,183 --> 01:02:53,812
and if we seek God
and seek God's love,

1245
01:02:53,812 --> 01:02:57,899
we will find it
in this world and in the next.

1246
01:02:57,899 --> 01:03:02,237
And if we reject God
and reject God's love,

1247
01:03:02,237 --> 01:03:04,781
we get to go to a world where
those things don't happen.

1248
01:03:04,781 --> 01:03:06,866
And I don't mean this
as a joke.

1249
01:03:06,866 --> 01:03:08,743
I mean
this absolutely sincerely.

1250
01:03:08,743 --> 01:03:11,287
Hell's not so bad.

1251
01:03:11,287 --> 01:03:13,289
The problem is the people
that are there.

1252
01:03:13,289 --> 01:03:16,626
They're awful.
They're really awful.

1253
01:03:16,626 --> 01:03:19,963
There's nothing to do there
except torment one another,

1254
01:03:19,963 --> 01:03:22,590
so Hell is a place
of continuous torment.

1255
01:03:22,590 --> 01:03:26,428
It's a place of complete
hopelessness and despair.

1256
01:03:29,347 --> 01:03:32,225
- What do you make out
of Howard Storm?

1257
01:03:32,225 --> 01:03:35,729
Like, I know he's in the book,
but how did you discover him?

1258
01:03:35,729 --> 01:03:37,313
- Yeah.
- And why him?

1259
01:03:37,313 --> 01:03:38,648
- Well, you know,
there was a series of studies

1260
01:03:38,648 --> 01:03:40,358
that we've done
that showed that,

1261
01:03:40,358 --> 01:03:43,153
of 1,400 people who had
had near-death experiences,

1262
01:03:43,153 --> 01:03:45,572
23% had negative experiences

1263
01:03:45,572 --> 01:03:50,910
that ranged from distressing
to frightening and terrorizing.

1264
01:03:50,910 --> 01:03:53,038
And his was an example
of someone

1265
01:03:53,038 --> 01:03:55,331
who had
a terrorizing experience.

1266
01:03:55,331 --> 01:03:57,083
- How do you go about,
like, for that one,

1267
01:03:57,083 --> 01:03:59,044
verifying, like, its validity?

1268
01:03:59,044 --> 01:04:00,754
Yeah, that's a good question.

1269
01:04:00,754 --> 01:04:02,255
- 'Cause it's like, you hear
a lot about "I went to Heaven."

1270
01:04:02,255 --> 01:04:03,339
Yeah.

1271
01:04:03,339 --> 01:04:04,758
- But very few
"I went to Hell."

1272
01:04:04,758 --> 01:04:07,052
- Yeah, I think it's
against a person's interest

1273
01:04:07,052 --> 01:04:09,304
to talk
about having gone to Hell

1274
01:04:09,304 --> 01:04:11,222
because it's embarrassing.

1275
01:04:11,222 --> 01:04:13,933
Who wants to say, "Oh, yeah,
I was in the trash bin

1276
01:04:13,933 --> 01:04:16,186
of the afterlife," you know.

1277
01:04:16,186 --> 01:04:17,937
So it's embarrassing.

1278
01:04:17,937 --> 01:04:20,648
It's traumatic to the degree
that I think some

1279
01:04:20,648 --> 01:04:22,734
of them have
post-traumatic stress syndrome,

1280
01:04:22,734 --> 01:04:24,569
and they don't want
to talk about it,

1281
01:04:24,569 --> 01:04:26,321
they don't want
to revisit it and so forth.

1282
01:04:26,321 --> 01:04:28,239
And in the case
of Howard Storm,

1283
01:04:28,239 --> 01:04:31,743
here's someone who came back
from that experience,

1284
01:04:31,743 --> 01:04:35,121
and it was so profound,
it was so real to him,

1285
01:04:35,121 --> 01:04:38,500
that he resigned his position,
his tenured professorship,

1286
01:04:38,500 --> 01:04:40,418
his chairmanship
of the art department

1287
01:04:40,418 --> 01:04:41,753
at this university,

1288
01:04:41,753 --> 01:04:44,756
and became a pastor
of a tiny church

1289
01:04:44,756 --> 01:04:47,425
that he continues
to serve to this day.

1290
01:04:47,425 --> 01:04:49,594
That's some evidence
that this was more

1291
01:04:49,594 --> 01:04:51,513
than just
some loose hallucination.

1292
01:04:51,513 --> 01:04:54,641
There was something profound
that happened to him,

1293
01:04:54,641 --> 01:04:58,394
something that chilled him
to the bone.

1294
01:04:58,394 --> 01:05:00,563
- Would you say that there's
more sermons about Hell

1295
01:05:00,563 --> 01:05:02,649
than there are Heaven
or vice versa?

1296
01:05:02,649 --> 01:05:05,485
- I think there's a lot
more sermons about Heaven

1297
01:05:05,485 --> 01:05:07,237
than there are Hell.

1298
01:05:07,237 --> 01:05:10,865
Very few pastors like
to talk about Hell.

1299
01:05:10,865 --> 01:05:13,827
[upbeat music]

1300
01:05:13,827 --> 01:05:16,663
♪ ♪

1301
01:05:16,663 --> 01:05:21,042
- So we are
in Chinatown, San Francisco,

1302
01:05:21,042 --> 01:05:23,670
and this is where I was born.

1303
01:05:23,670 --> 01:05:27,799
This is the hospital,
back in 1967.

1304
01:05:27,799 --> 01:05:30,051
This is also
where Bruce Lee was born,

1305
01:05:30,051 --> 01:05:32,887
which is kind of cool.

1306
01:05:32,887 --> 01:05:37,392
And this is where
my mother died 54 years ago.

1307
01:05:37,392 --> 01:05:41,479
♪ ♪

1308
01:05:41,479 --> 01:05:45,525
Yeah, my dad kind
of flipped out,

1309
01:05:45,525 --> 01:05:49,946
and I feel like that's why
he always resented me,

1310
01:05:49,946 --> 01:05:52,991
and I think it's because I was
the one that caused her death.

1311
01:05:52,991 --> 01:05:55,618
♪ ♪

1312
01:05:55,618 --> 01:05:57,704
We never even talked about it.

1313
01:05:57,704 --> 01:06:00,957
Like, he just--the only time
he ever talked to me was

1314
01:06:00,957 --> 01:06:04,252
when he was beating me,
you know, just yelling at me,

1315
01:06:04,252 --> 01:06:06,296
maybe giving me instructions,
telling me what to do.

1316
01:06:06,296 --> 01:06:09,299
But we didn't have
conversations,

1317
01:06:09,299 --> 01:06:11,050
which isn't
really that abnormal

1318
01:06:11,050 --> 01:06:12,969
in a Chinese family.

1319
01:06:12,969 --> 01:06:19,350
I don't know the whole story,
but my mother--when she died,

1320
01:06:19,350 --> 01:06:21,978
you know, people blamed
the hospital or whatever,

1321
01:06:21,978 --> 01:06:23,521
but she basically bled out.

1322
01:06:23,521 --> 01:06:25,899
It was something
that was pretty--should be

1323
01:06:25,899 --> 01:06:28,902
pretty simple nowadays.

1324
01:06:28,902 --> 01:06:30,445
Because she died,

1325
01:06:30,445 --> 01:06:32,739
and I think my dad
just had a hard time,

1326
01:06:32,739 --> 01:06:36,784
like, you know, living
in the U.S., making a living,

1327
01:06:36,784 --> 01:06:39,454
he had me sent to Hong Kong

1328
01:06:39,454 --> 01:06:42,081
to grow up
with my grandmothers.

1329
01:06:42,081 --> 01:06:46,294
♪ ♪

1330
01:06:46,294 --> 01:06:50,131
My name in Chinese
is Chan Yang Fan,

1331
01:06:50,131 --> 01:06:54,636
and that last character
is the same character

1332
01:06:54,636 --> 01:06:56,471
in San Francisco.

1333
01:06:56,471 --> 01:07:01,434
I'm assuming my dad just took
the translation into English

1334
01:07:01,434 --> 01:07:03,228
and named me Francis.

1335
01:07:03,228 --> 01:07:07,440
So I guess, in a sense,
I'm named after the city.

1336
01:07:07,440 --> 01:07:10,485
And it's weird
'cause my stepmom...

1337
01:07:10,485 --> 01:07:12,654
it says "Chin" here,

1338
01:07:12,654 --> 01:07:15,281
and that's what it says
on my birth certificate.

1339
01:07:15,281 --> 01:07:18,368
But then my stepmom is Chan,
and my dad is Chan.

1340
01:07:18,368 --> 01:07:20,119
And so I don't know.

1341
01:07:20,119 --> 01:07:22,455
You know, back then, everything
was just a little more screwy,

1342
01:07:22,455 --> 01:07:25,959
so who knows who I am?

1343
01:07:25,959 --> 01:07:28,253
[soft music]

1344
01:07:34,550 --> 01:07:39,222
Death is so ugly.

1345
01:07:41,266 --> 01:07:45,645
And it's awful in so many ways.

1346
01:07:45,645 --> 01:07:47,814
Like, you know,
having seven kids,

1347
01:07:47,814 --> 01:07:49,565
there's that fear.

1348
01:07:49,565 --> 01:07:51,943
Having grandkids,
I have that fear.

1349
01:07:51,943 --> 01:07:53,695
Being married
to a woman that I love,

1350
01:07:53,695 --> 01:07:55,446
there's fear.

1351
01:07:55,446 --> 01:07:58,533
Like, I don't like
the thought

1352
01:07:58,533 --> 01:08:01,286
that that could end
at any moment.

1353
01:08:01,286 --> 01:08:07,083
At the same time...

1354
01:08:07,083 --> 01:08:09,961
the whole point
of the resurrection

1355
01:08:09,961 --> 01:08:13,131
is that I wouldn't have
to fear it in a sense of,

1356
01:08:13,131 --> 01:08:15,216
"Oh, no,
what's gonna happen next?"

1357
01:08:15,216 --> 01:08:18,428
In a lot of ways, it's like,
that's what I anticipate.

1358
01:08:18,428 --> 01:08:21,180
Like, God, bring it.
I'm ready to go.

1359
01:08:21,180 --> 01:08:24,350
I'm done with this Earth.

1360
01:08:24,350 --> 01:08:26,227
You know, I'll do whatever
you want me to do.

1361
01:08:26,227 --> 01:08:28,271
I'll stay here as long
as you want me to stay here.

1362
01:08:28,271 --> 01:08:30,523
But there's so much
of me that's like,

1363
01:08:30,523 --> 01:08:32,692
oh, I can't wait to die.

1364
01:08:32,692 --> 01:08:34,944
I can't wait
to get out of here.

1365
01:08:41,492 --> 01:08:43,119
Like, it's weird.

1366
01:08:43,119 --> 01:08:45,580
Like, I would love to know
what it would feel like

1367
01:08:45,580 --> 01:08:49,417
to have a mom
that gave birth to me

1368
01:08:49,417 --> 01:08:52,420
and loved me,
and--but I'll never have that.

1369
01:08:52,420 --> 01:08:54,756
I'd love
to have a dad right now,

1370
01:08:54,756 --> 01:08:57,508
and just wonder,
what did he think of my life?

1371
01:08:57,508 --> 01:08:59,427
I know we didn't talk,
you know,

1372
01:08:59,427 --> 01:09:01,804
the whole time you were alive,
but would it have changed--

1373
01:09:01,804 --> 01:09:06,434
you know, of course, there's
some of that curiosity.

1374
01:09:06,434 --> 01:09:09,103
Sometimes, I'll think
about her on Mother's Day,

1375
01:09:09,103 --> 01:09:13,608
like, just grateful
that she decided to have me

1376
01:09:13,608 --> 01:09:18,071
and lost her life so
that I could be on this Earth.

1377
01:09:18,071 --> 01:09:20,365
I have no idea
what would have happened

1378
01:09:20,365 --> 01:09:22,575
if my parents stayed alive.

1379
01:09:22,575 --> 01:09:25,912
♪ ♪

1380
01:09:25,912 --> 01:09:27,830
I don't know.

1381
01:09:27,830 --> 01:09:29,874
Before I left for China,

1382
01:09:29,874 --> 01:09:32,835
I found these old pictures
of her,

1383
01:09:32,835 --> 01:09:38,424
and it showed the location
of where she did ministry,

1384
01:09:38,424 --> 01:09:42,428
And it happened to be
exactly where they had

1385
01:09:42,428 --> 01:09:44,722
set up an office for me.

1386
01:09:44,722 --> 01:09:47,600
And so I thought,
that is crazy

1387
01:09:47,600 --> 01:09:52,772
that 60 years ago,

1388
01:09:52,772 --> 01:09:56,442
my mom was doing ministry
in that exact same spot

1389
01:09:56,442 --> 01:09:59,070
where God was calling me now.

1390
01:09:59,070 --> 01:10:05,993
♪ ♪

1391
01:10:09,705 --> 01:10:12,667
[upbeat folk music]

1392
01:10:12,667 --> 01:10:19,590
♪ ♪

1393
01:10:19,590 --> 01:10:21,634
- What do you think
your life would have been like

1394
01:10:21,634 --> 01:10:23,344
if you had not come to Christ,

1395
01:10:23,344 --> 01:10:26,055
if you had not taken on
that challenge to investigate,

1396
01:10:26,055 --> 01:10:28,015
you know,
the resurrection of Jesus?

1397
01:10:28,015 --> 01:10:32,395
- I've thought about that,
and I don't know for sure,

1398
01:10:32,395 --> 01:10:34,105
but I was headed
down a dark path.

1399
01:10:34,105 --> 01:10:39,026
♪ ♪

1400
01:10:39,026 --> 01:10:41,320
We were childhood sweethearts.

1401
01:10:41,320 --> 01:10:43,364
I mean, we dated
on and off in high school,

1402
01:10:43,364 --> 01:10:45,158
and we enjoyed each other,

1403
01:10:45,158 --> 01:10:47,326
and we had
a certain expectation

1404
01:10:47,326 --> 01:10:49,454
of what our future
would be like.

1405
01:10:49,454 --> 01:10:52,165
And then, one day,
she came up to me

1406
01:10:52,165 --> 01:10:54,542
and gave me the worst news
that an atheist could get.

1407
01:10:54,542 --> 01:10:55,960
She said, "I've decided

1408
01:10:55,960 --> 01:10:58,254
to become a follower
of Jesus."

1409
01:10:58,254 --> 01:11:02,383
And first word that went
through my mind was divorce.

1410
01:11:02,383 --> 01:11:04,844
I was gonna walk out.

1411
01:11:04,844 --> 01:11:07,555
♪ ♪

1412
01:11:07,555 --> 01:11:10,808
You know, I was a narcissist.

1413
01:11:10,808 --> 01:11:13,102
I was a drunk.

1414
01:11:13,102 --> 01:11:16,230
I was self-absorbed.

1415
01:11:16,230 --> 01:11:18,733
I was a liar.
I was a cheater.

1416
01:11:20,526 --> 01:11:22,069
People thought
I was a great guy.

1417
01:11:22,069 --> 01:11:23,905
They didn't know
the inside of me.

1418
01:11:23,905 --> 01:11:26,866
They didn't know--they
didn't see me

1419
01:11:26,866 --> 01:11:28,743
when I was literally drunk
in the snow

1420
01:11:28,743 --> 01:11:30,578
in an alley on Saturday night.

1421
01:11:30,578 --> 01:11:32,830
You know, I had all
this success in journalism,

1422
01:11:32,830 --> 01:11:35,500
but it masked what was
really going on in me.

1423
01:11:35,500 --> 01:11:42,423
♪ ♪

1424
01:12:06,822 --> 01:12:13,412
- ♪ Oh-oh-oh-oh ♪

1425
01:12:13,412 --> 01:12:16,749
♪ Oh-oh-oh ♪

1426
01:12:16,749 --> 01:12:18,709
- When you look
around this world, man,

1427
01:12:18,709 --> 01:12:21,170
and there are choices
that we make, you know,

1428
01:12:21,170 --> 01:12:24,090
and those choices lead to...

1429
01:12:24,090 --> 01:12:26,259
well, instead
of saying good or bad,

1430
01:12:26,259 --> 01:12:28,761
I'd like to say life or death,
right?

1431
01:12:28,761 --> 01:12:31,305
The choices
that we make will usually lead

1432
01:12:31,305 --> 01:12:33,474
to one or the other,
seldom just right

1433
01:12:33,474 --> 01:12:34,892
in the middle of the road,
right?

1434
01:12:34,892 --> 01:12:36,519
Things bring us life,
or they bring us death.

1435
01:12:36,519 --> 01:12:38,229
We make those choices
all the time.

1436
01:12:38,229 --> 01:12:42,275
[soft music]

1437
01:12:42,275 --> 01:12:45,528
I think the essence
of what we long for

1438
01:12:45,528 --> 01:12:48,239
is to know that we're loved.

1439
01:12:48,239 --> 01:12:50,700
While we're here
on this Earth,

1440
01:12:50,700 --> 01:12:52,785
I think it's safe
to say that we all

1441
01:12:52,785 --> 01:12:56,497
have some significant
doubts about the fact

1442
01:12:56,497 --> 01:12:58,207
that we're truly loved.

1443
01:12:58,207 --> 01:13:02,795
But it's God's purpose
to reveal that to us here.

1444
01:13:02,795 --> 01:13:06,048
And it's our purpose
to open our hearts to it

1445
01:13:06,048 --> 01:13:10,303
and in turn reveal
that truth to each other.

1446
01:13:10,303 --> 01:13:16,350
♪ ♪

1447
01:13:16,350 --> 01:13:19,353
[soft piano music]

1448
01:13:19,353 --> 01:13:26,277
♪ ♪

1449
01:13:33,034 --> 01:13:38,748
♪ I was there when you
looked up into the night ♪

1450
01:13:38,748 --> 01:13:40,499
♪ ♪

1451
01:13:40,499 --> 01:13:44,962
♪ Looking far beyond the stars
and asking why ♪

1452
01:13:44,962 --> 01:13:47,131
♪ ♪

1453
01:13:47,131 --> 01:13:51,177
♪ Although you thought
you were alone ♪

1454
01:13:51,177 --> 01:13:56,849
♪ When you fell
into the unknown ♪

1455
01:13:56,849 --> 01:13:59,268
♪ All the while, my love ♪

1456
01:13:59,268 --> 01:14:04,398
♪ You were a child of mine ♪

1457
01:14:04,398 --> 01:14:10,363
♪ Ooh-ooh-ooh-ooh ♪

1458
01:14:10,363 --> 01:14:17,286
♪ ♪

1459
01:14:19,080 --> 01:14:25,002
♪ Ooh-ooh-ooh-ooh ♪

1460
01:14:25,002 --> 01:14:31,926
♪ ♪

1461
01:14:33,052 --> 01:14:38,516
♪ Yeah ♪

1462
01:14:38,516 --> 01:14:41,560
- How much does pain,
suffering, betrayal,

1463
01:14:41,560 --> 01:14:46,691
hurt, questions play
into writing your music?

1464
01:14:46,691 --> 01:14:50,236
- Pain and longing accompany
each other in the way that,

1465
01:14:50,236 --> 01:14:52,488
when we
experience that longing,

1466
01:14:52,488 --> 01:14:54,073
there is a sense of,

1467
01:14:54,073 --> 01:14:57,076
"Hey, things aren't right
here in this Earth"

1468
01:14:57,076 --> 01:15:00,955
in the way that we know,
somewhere deep down,

1469
01:15:00,955 --> 01:15:03,416
it's supposed to be right.

1470
01:15:03,416 --> 01:15:05,459
When there's injustice,

1471
01:15:05,459 --> 01:15:07,628
we know that somewhere
there's supposed

1472
01:15:07,628 --> 01:15:11,799
to be a place that is just.

1473
01:15:11,799 --> 01:15:13,884
So the question is,
where does that come from?

1474
01:15:13,884 --> 01:15:16,387
If it doesn't exist somewhere,

1475
01:15:16,387 --> 01:15:18,889
why would we long
for something like that?

1476
01:15:18,889 --> 01:15:25,771
♪ ♪

1477
01:15:28,482 --> 01:15:34,155
- Eric, tell us how some
of these sounds and things

1478
01:15:34,155 --> 01:15:36,365
that we hear
can just, like, I guess,

1479
01:15:36,365 --> 01:15:38,617
take us to another place.

1480
01:15:38,617 --> 01:15:42,496
- Yeah, I mean,
every artist has their own way

1481
01:15:42,496 --> 01:15:46,375
of kind of capturing
that other place.

1482
01:15:46,375 --> 01:15:50,755
For me,
I have really experimented

1483
01:15:50,755 --> 01:15:54,550
with trying to find a sound
that is unfamiliar

1484
01:15:54,550 --> 01:15:56,594
but, at the same time,
familiar.

1485
01:15:56,594 --> 01:16:00,264
And so I pulled this up
for you, Mani,

1486
01:16:00,264 --> 01:16:01,932
'cause I want
to do a little experiment

1487
01:16:01,932 --> 01:16:04,894
with you--experiment for you.

1488
01:16:04,894 --> 01:16:06,729
And listen to this track,

1489
01:16:06,729 --> 01:16:08,981
and I'm gonna play
two different tracks,

1490
01:16:08,981 --> 01:16:11,108
and see if you know
what this is.

1491
01:16:11,108 --> 01:16:14,111
[soft music]

1492
01:16:14,111 --> 01:16:20,201
♪ ♪

1493
01:16:20,201 --> 01:16:23,370
Okay, so do you recognize
that instrument?

1494
01:16:23,370 --> 01:16:26,040
- Yeah, I think
that's the oboe.

1495
01:16:26,040 --> 01:16:28,959
- So an oboe--you know,
if nobody's ever heard

1496
01:16:28,959 --> 01:16:31,295
an oboe before, they might go,
"Wow, that's, like, incredible.

1497
01:16:31,295 --> 01:16:32,963
That's taking me
to another world."

1498
01:16:32,963 --> 01:16:36,509
But for most of us,
we know what sound that is.

1499
01:16:36,509 --> 01:16:39,053
And obviously, we can make
a melody with that oboe

1500
01:16:39,053 --> 01:16:41,806
that can take us
to another place.

1501
01:16:41,806 --> 01:16:43,974
So close your eyes
for a minute

1502
01:16:43,974 --> 01:16:46,185
and listen to this sound.

1503
01:16:47,436 --> 01:16:50,397
[soft note building]

1504
01:16:50,397 --> 01:16:57,321
♪ ♪

1505
01:17:05,579 --> 01:17:07,206
Okay, what do you hear there?

1506
01:17:08,791 --> 01:17:11,544
- Yeah, I have no idea
what that is.

1507
01:17:11,544 --> 01:17:14,839
- So part
of what you're hearing is,

1508
01:17:14,839 --> 01:17:16,507
in the beginning,

1509
01:17:16,507 --> 01:17:19,844
it's actually samples
of outer space.

1510
01:17:19,844 --> 01:17:24,557
So there's sounds coming
from quasars,

1511
01:17:24,557 --> 01:17:26,392
and the Solar System,

1512
01:17:26,392 --> 01:17:28,602
and planets,
and things like that

1513
01:17:28,602 --> 01:17:31,564
that, through equipment,
can actually be translated

1514
01:17:31,564 --> 01:17:32,982
into sound.

1515
01:17:32,982 --> 01:17:34,316
So I have a few
of these samples.

1516
01:17:34,316 --> 01:17:36,110
And when you hear
these samples, you're like,

1517
01:17:36,110 --> 01:17:38,195
"Wow, that's
an unfamiliar sound."

1518
01:17:38,195 --> 01:17:40,531
It's not, like,
every day that we walk around,

1519
01:17:40,531 --> 01:17:42,616
we're hearing sounds
of outer space,

1520
01:17:42,616 --> 01:17:44,159
and planets, and stuff.

1521
01:17:44,159 --> 01:17:45,995
So when you take
a sound like that

1522
01:17:45,995 --> 01:17:49,874
and then incorporate other
familiar tones and textures,

1523
01:17:49,874 --> 01:17:52,168
and combine them all,
you come out

1524
01:17:52,168 --> 01:17:56,547
with something that's,
in some ways,

1525
01:17:56,547 --> 01:18:01,218
just really moving,
taking you to another place.

1526
01:18:01,218 --> 01:18:03,971
- I think faith is--it's
an interesting topic

1527
01:18:03,971 --> 01:18:06,056
because when I was an atheist,

1528
01:18:06,056 --> 01:18:08,183
I thought faith was
believing something

1529
01:18:08,183 --> 01:18:09,476
even though you knew
in your heart

1530
01:18:09,476 --> 01:18:10,853
it couldn't be true.

1531
01:18:10,853 --> 01:18:12,396
You know, I thought
that's what faith was.

1532
01:18:12,396 --> 01:18:13,939
And then I came to learn

1533
01:18:13,939 --> 01:18:16,358
that Biblical faith is
quite different,

1534
01:18:16,358 --> 01:18:17,610
and I think
it's important for people

1535
01:18:17,610 --> 01:18:19,236
to understand that distinction.

1536
01:18:19,236 --> 01:18:22,865
Biblical faith is taking a step
in the same direction

1537
01:18:22,865 --> 01:18:26,785
that the evidence is pointing,
which is logical and rational.

1538
01:18:26,785 --> 01:18:28,954
[speaking Russian]

1539
01:18:28,954 --> 01:18:33,375
[soft music]

1540
01:18:33,375 --> 01:18:36,086
Yuri Gagarin was the
cosmonaut--Russian cosmonaut.

1541
01:18:36,086 --> 01:18:37,796
He was the first guy
into space.

1542
01:18:37,796 --> 01:18:41,550
And he quipped, when he was
up there, he said--or later,

1543
01:18:41,550 --> 01:18:43,636
I can't remember,
but he said basically,

1544
01:18:43,636 --> 01:18:46,764
"I looked around,
and I didn't see God."

1545
01:18:46,764 --> 01:18:50,226
And yet Buzz Aldrin,
who was one of the Americans

1546
01:18:50,226 --> 01:18:53,020
who went to the Moon,
who celebrated communion

1547
01:18:53,020 --> 01:18:57,816
on Christmas Eve in space,
affirmed that God is real.

1548
01:18:58,609 --> 01:19:03,489
- Sunday, July 20, 1969,
around the world,

1549
01:19:03,489 --> 01:19:06,033
nearly a billion people
watched this moment

1550
01:19:06,033 --> 01:19:09,828
on television as the first man
from Earth prepared

1551
01:19:09,828 --> 01:19:11,705
to set foot upon the Moon.

1552
01:19:11,705 --> 01:19:14,541
- That's one small step
for man.

1553
01:19:14,541 --> 01:19:17,044
[upbeat music]

1554
01:19:17,044 --> 01:19:22,174
One giant leap for mankind.

1555
01:19:22,174 --> 01:19:25,427
- I believe that this nation
should commit itself

1556
01:19:25,427 --> 01:19:29,139
to achieving the goal,
before this decade is out,

1557
01:19:29,139 --> 01:19:31,392
of landing a man on the Moon

1558
01:19:31,392 --> 01:19:34,645
and returning him safely
to the Earth.

1559
01:19:34,645 --> 01:19:38,190
- And what that tells me
is some people can see

1560
01:19:38,190 --> 01:19:40,651
the same evidence and come
to different conclusions.

1561
01:19:40,651 --> 01:19:44,113
And you have to ask yourself,
what's driving that?

1562
01:19:44,113 --> 01:19:45,823
What's driving that?

1563
01:19:45,823 --> 01:19:48,242
Do I have reasons
not to believe?

1564
01:19:48,242 --> 01:19:51,036
Are there reasons
I don't want to believe?

1565
01:19:51,036 --> 01:19:53,247
Are there things in my life
I would have to give up

1566
01:19:53,247 --> 01:19:56,250
if I became a believer in God?

1567
01:19:56,250 --> 01:19:59,169
Are there certain moral things
that I would have to give up

1568
01:19:59,169 --> 01:20:01,255
because they're immoral
in God's sight,

1569
01:20:01,255 --> 01:20:03,007
and I want to keep doing them,

1570
01:20:03,007 --> 01:20:04,883
and so I would rather find
reasons

1571
01:20:04,883 --> 01:20:07,469
not to believe
than to believe?

1572
01:20:07,469 --> 01:20:09,930
So we have to try
to filter out our motives

1573
01:20:09,930 --> 01:20:11,557
as much as we can,

1574
01:20:11,557 --> 01:20:16,687
and say,
"I want to reach a verdict

1575
01:20:16,687 --> 01:20:19,565
"in the case for Heaven
based on the evidence

1576
01:20:19,565 --> 01:20:21,650
"and not
on my wishful thinking,

1577
01:20:21,650 --> 01:20:23,986
"or not on my preconceptions,

1578
01:20:23,986 --> 01:20:26,947
or not
on my biases or prejudices."

1579
01:20:26,947 --> 01:20:29,700
I want to reach it based on,
"What is the evidence?

1580
01:20:29,700 --> 01:20:32,077
"Is there sufficient evidence
to tell me

1581
01:20:32,077 --> 01:20:34,747
that when I die
I will continue to live on?"

1582
01:20:34,747 --> 01:20:39,501
♪ ♪

1583
01:20:43,380 --> 01:20:46,467
- Sometimes,
this church is actually

1584
01:20:46,467 --> 01:20:49,386
what deters some folks
from even finding that love.

1585
01:20:49,386 --> 01:20:50,763
because
of their negative experience.

1586
01:20:50,763 --> 01:20:53,390
Right, right.

1587
01:20:53,390 --> 01:20:55,059
What do you say to those

1588
01:20:55,059 --> 01:20:57,269
that can't
get this out of the way,

1589
01:20:57,269 --> 01:20:58,479
you know what I mean?

1590
01:20:58,479 --> 01:21:01,023
- That's a real problem,
I think.

1591
01:21:01,023 --> 01:21:04,735
You know, for me,
I want to strip away things

1592
01:21:04,735 --> 01:21:07,529
that get in the way
of finding the truth.

1593
01:21:07,529 --> 01:21:10,657
And if someone is hurt
by a church,

1594
01:21:10,657 --> 01:21:12,159
or they're hurt
by a relationship

1595
01:21:12,159 --> 01:21:13,994
with a Christian
who betrays them,

1596
01:21:13,994 --> 01:21:17,081
or who uses them,
or whatever,

1597
01:21:17,081 --> 01:21:19,124
that's a horrible thing,

1598
01:21:19,124 --> 01:21:21,293
and I can understand
emotionally

1599
01:21:21,293 --> 01:21:25,130
how that makes a person
less likely to seek after God.

1600
01:21:25,130 --> 01:21:26,965
But then I step back
and say, "Wait a minute.

1601
01:21:26,965 --> 01:21:29,510
"That doesn't change the truth
of Christianity.

1602
01:21:29,510 --> 01:21:33,097
That doesn't change whether
it aligns with reality."

1603
01:21:33,097 --> 01:21:34,807
That's the real question.

1604
01:21:34,807 --> 01:21:38,352
Truth is that which
corresponds to reality.

1605
01:21:38,352 --> 01:21:41,355
[soft music]

1606
01:21:41,355 --> 01:21:48,278
♪ ♪

1607
01:22:10,551 --> 01:22:14,638
It was more than 40 years
since I've been in this house.

1608
01:22:22,062 --> 01:22:24,690
Yeah, my whole writing career,
my whole journalism career,

1609
01:22:24,690 --> 01:22:26,775
started here
in the basement of my house.

1610
01:22:36,368 --> 01:22:38,996
Well, we were
in the family room here,

1611
01:22:38,996 --> 01:22:41,665
and I had blatantly disobeyed
my dad

1612
01:22:41,665 --> 01:22:44,293
by buying a motorcycle
that he had forbidden me

1613
01:22:44,293 --> 01:22:46,336
from buying,
and he found out,

1614
01:22:46,336 --> 01:22:48,505
and we had
a huge blowout argument,

1615
01:22:48,505 --> 01:22:52,551
and he said words
that I hope he didn't mean,

1616
01:22:52,551 --> 01:22:54,803
but told me that he didn't
have enough love for me

1617
01:22:54,803 --> 01:22:56,763
to fill his little finger.

1618
01:22:56,763 --> 01:23:00,517
And I remember hearing that,
and I had no response.

1619
01:23:00,517 --> 01:23:02,144
What do you say to that?

1620
01:23:02,144 --> 01:23:05,189
And so there was silence
for a moment,

1621
01:23:05,189 --> 01:23:08,567
and then I just turned
and walked out.

1622
01:23:08,567 --> 01:23:11,028
And that was it.

1623
01:23:11,028 --> 01:23:14,239
♪ ♪

1624
01:23:14,239 --> 01:23:16,950
I never intended to go home.

1625
01:23:16,950 --> 01:23:20,787
Although I remember
when he died,

1626
01:23:20,787 --> 01:23:22,539
I was at the wake,

1627
01:23:22,539 --> 01:23:25,334
and a guy came up
to me--two guys actually,

1628
01:23:25,334 --> 01:23:26,585
and said, "Are you Lee?"

1629
01:23:26,585 --> 01:23:28,128
And I said, "Yeah."

1630
01:23:28,128 --> 01:23:30,756
And they said, "Oh, man,
can I shake your hand?

1631
01:23:30,756 --> 01:23:32,841
"Your dad never stopped
talking about you.

1632
01:23:32,841 --> 01:23:34,635
"He was so proud of you.

1633
01:23:34,635 --> 01:23:36,720
"And when you'd have a byline
on the front page

1634
01:23:36,720 --> 01:23:38,931
"of the 'Chicago Tribune,'
he was so proud.

1635
01:23:38,931 --> 01:23:40,474
He'd show us the article."

1636
01:23:40,474 --> 01:23:44,811
And I was just shocked by that

1637
01:23:44,811 --> 01:23:47,481
because it was nothing
he ever expressed to me.

1638
01:23:47,481 --> 01:23:52,110
♪ ♪

1639
01:23:52,110 --> 01:23:53,862
We never reconciled, really.

1640
01:23:53,862 --> 01:23:55,489
We never talked
about that incident.

1641
01:23:55,489 --> 01:23:59,201
We never processed it.
We never resolved it.

1642
01:23:59,201 --> 01:24:02,454
And I remember interviewing
a scholar about Heaven,

1643
01:24:02,454 --> 01:24:04,456
and he said, you know,
"When you get to Heaven--"

1644
01:24:04,456 --> 01:24:06,375
I said, "I believe
my father is in Heaven."

1645
01:24:06,375 --> 01:24:10,379
And he said, "That first hour
that you get to Heaven,

1646
01:24:10,379 --> 01:24:12,381
"you're both gonna be
totally motivated

1647
01:24:12,381 --> 01:24:15,008
"to reconcile fully
and completely,

1648
01:24:15,008 --> 01:24:18,178
"and you'll be able to spend
eternity in Heaven in the kind

1649
01:24:18,178 --> 01:24:19,805
"of father-son relationship

1650
01:24:19,805 --> 01:24:22,307
that you never really had
in this world."

1651
01:24:22,307 --> 01:24:29,231
♪ ♪

1652
01:24:32,234 --> 01:24:35,821
Just that feeling of being
here in this environment,

1653
01:24:35,821 --> 01:24:39,866
where my entire journalism
career had its scene

1654
01:24:39,866 --> 01:24:43,453
and began, I mean,
the nostalgia

1655
01:24:43,453 --> 01:24:45,247
just kind of wells up
inside you.

1656
01:24:45,247 --> 01:24:48,959
It's a great feeling
to be home.

1657
01:24:48,959 --> 01:24:51,211
♪ ♪

1658
01:24:59,094 --> 01:25:03,265
Oh, man, I think I'd say,

1659
01:25:03,265 --> 01:25:06,351
"Keep seeking.
The truth is out there."

1660
01:25:06,351 --> 01:25:13,275
♪ ♪

1661
01:25:35,047 --> 01:25:39,843
[soft piano music]

1662
01:25:39,843 --> 01:25:42,721
Jesus, unlike anybody else
in history,

1663
01:25:42,721 --> 01:25:46,641
has the credentials to tell us
the truth about the afterlife.

1664
01:25:46,641 --> 01:25:48,810
- When you explain
the resurrection,

1665
01:25:48,810 --> 01:25:52,022
you tend to talk
about these four things.

1666
01:25:52,022 --> 01:25:55,442
- Yeah, the four areas are,
number one, his execution,

1667
01:25:55,442 --> 01:25:58,362
number two, the early reports
that he rose from the dead,

1668
01:25:58,362 --> 01:26:00,280
number three, the empty tomb,

1669
01:26:00,280 --> 01:26:03,450
and number four,
the eyewitnesses.

1670
01:26:03,450 --> 01:26:05,577
So the first E is
for execution,

1671
01:26:05,577 --> 01:26:08,914
that Jesus was truly dead
after being crucified.

1672
01:26:08,914 --> 01:26:11,416
And the evidence
for this is very powerful.

1673
01:26:11,416 --> 01:26:15,170
We have no evidence anywhere
of anyone ever surviving

1674
01:26:15,170 --> 01:26:17,714
a full Roman crucifixion.

1675
01:26:17,714 --> 01:26:23,095
Even the scientific,
peer-reviewed,

1676
01:26:23,095 --> 01:26:26,890
secular Journal of the American
Medical Association

1677
01:26:26,890 --> 01:26:29,601
conducted an investigation
into the death of Jesus,

1678
01:26:29,601 --> 01:26:33,105
and their conclusion was,
"Clearly, the weight

1679
01:26:33,105 --> 01:26:35,899
"of the historical
and medical evidence indicates

1680
01:26:35,899 --> 01:26:38,402
"that Jesus was dead
even before the wound

1681
01:26:38,402 --> 01:26:40,654
to his side was inflicted."

1682
01:26:40,654 --> 01:26:42,948
The second E stands
for the word "early."

1683
01:26:42,948 --> 01:26:46,159
We have early reports
that Jesus rose from the dead.

1684
01:26:46,159 --> 01:26:48,370
In other words,
reports that can be dated back

1685
01:26:48,370 --> 01:26:50,539
very close
to the events themselves.

1686
01:26:50,539 --> 01:26:52,207
I used to think,
like a lot of skeptics,

1687
01:26:52,207 --> 01:26:54,167
that the resurrection
was a legend.

1688
01:26:54,167 --> 01:26:56,503
And I knew it took time
for legend to develop

1689
01:26:56,503 --> 01:26:59,631
in the ancient world,
so I figured 100, 150 years

1690
01:26:59,631 --> 01:27:02,217
after the death of Jesus,
stories were invented,

1691
01:27:02,217 --> 01:27:04,761
mythologies were spun,
and that's where the idea

1692
01:27:04,761 --> 01:27:06,596
of the resurrection came from.

1693
01:27:06,596 --> 01:27:08,723
But we have report
of the resurrection

1694
01:27:08,723 --> 01:27:10,475
of Jesus Christ,

1695
01:27:10,475 --> 01:27:13,645
including named eyewitnesses
and groups of eyewitnesses,

1696
01:27:13,645 --> 01:27:15,856
that has been dated back
by scholars

1697
01:27:15,856 --> 01:27:19,025
to within months
of his execution.

1698
01:27:19,025 --> 01:27:22,154
That is like a news flash
from ancient history.

1699
01:27:22,154 --> 01:27:23,655
So I don't think
you can write it off

1700
01:27:23,655 --> 01:27:25,407
as just being a legend.

1701
01:27:25,407 --> 01:27:27,534
The third E stands
for "empty."

1702
01:27:27,534 --> 01:27:29,453
We have an empty tomb.

1703
01:27:29,453 --> 01:27:32,038
And the strongest evidence
for this is

1704
01:27:32,038 --> 01:27:33,748
that even the opponents
of Jesus

1705
01:27:33,748 --> 01:27:36,168
implicitly admitted
the tomb was empty.

1706
01:27:36,168 --> 01:27:38,044
There was nobody
in the first century

1707
01:27:38,044 --> 01:27:40,464
claiming that, "No, no, no,
the body is still there."

1708
01:27:40,464 --> 01:27:42,799
Even the opponents
of Jesus said,

1709
01:27:42,799 --> 01:27:45,135
"Oh, well,
the disciples stole the body."

1710
01:27:45,135 --> 01:27:47,095
They were conceding
the tomb is empty.

1711
01:27:47,095 --> 01:27:49,306
They're trying
to explain how it got empty.

1712
01:27:49,306 --> 01:27:51,516
And yet the disciples
didn't have the motive,

1713
01:27:51,516 --> 01:27:55,520
the means, or the opportunity
to steal the body.

1714
01:27:55,520 --> 01:27:59,024
And then finally, the fourth E
stands for "eyewitnesses."

1715
01:27:59,024 --> 01:28:02,986
As I said, most of what
we know from ancient history

1716
01:28:02,986 --> 01:28:06,448
are facts based on one
or maybe two sources.

1717
01:28:06,448 --> 01:28:09,034
And yet, for the conviction
of the disciples

1718
01:28:09,034 --> 01:28:11,036
that they encountered
the resurrected Jesus,

1719
01:28:11,036 --> 01:28:14,289
we have no fewer
than nine ancient sources

1720
01:28:14,289 --> 01:28:17,417
inside and outside
the New Testament,

1721
01:28:17,417 --> 01:28:20,712
confirming and corroborating
the conviction of the disciples

1722
01:28:20,712 --> 01:28:23,089
that they encountered
the risen Christ.

1723
01:28:23,089 --> 01:28:30,013
♪ ♪

1724
01:28:33,600 --> 01:28:36,603
[upbeat music]

1725
01:28:36,603 --> 01:28:43,777
♪ ♪

1726
01:28:43,777 --> 01:28:47,072
You know, Luis Palau
was not only my hero,

1727
01:28:47,072 --> 01:28:49,741
but he was my friend.

1728
01:28:49,741 --> 01:28:51,743
He was one
of the greatest evangelists

1729
01:28:51,743 --> 01:28:53,286
of all time.

1730
01:28:53,286 --> 01:28:58,291
He shared his faith
with a billion people.

1731
01:28:58,291 --> 01:29:01,002
He was very winsome,
he was very warm,

1732
01:29:01,002 --> 01:29:02,921
and he spoke
all over the world,

1733
01:29:02,921 --> 01:29:05,840
radio shows,
and books, and so forth.

1734
01:29:05,840 --> 01:29:08,468
But he knew he was dying.

1735
01:29:08,468 --> 01:29:10,720
He had stage IV cancer

1736
01:29:10,720 --> 01:29:13,098
and only had
a short time to live.

1737
01:29:13,098 --> 01:29:16,726
And I thought, you know,
if I'm investigating Heaven,

1738
01:29:16,726 --> 01:29:18,812
wouldn't it be good
to talk to someone

1739
01:29:18,812 --> 01:29:20,897
who's about ready to go there?

1740
01:29:20,897 --> 01:29:27,821
♪ ♪

1741
01:29:44,838 --> 01:29:47,591
That's what drew me to Oregon,

1742
01:29:47,591 --> 01:29:52,804
to encounter,
one last time, Luis Palau.

1743
01:29:52,804 --> 01:29:55,056
It turned out to be
the last major interview

1744
01:29:55,056 --> 01:29:58,101
of his life before he died.

1745
01:29:58,101 --> 01:30:02,355
♪ ♪

1746
01:30:07,152 --> 01:30:08,862
Tell me about the moment

1747
01:30:08,862 --> 01:30:10,822
where you heard
that Luis passed.

1748
01:30:10,822 --> 01:30:12,949
Where were you?

1749
01:30:12,949 --> 01:30:18,496
- I was at home in Houston
and got the news

1750
01:30:18,496 --> 01:30:20,707
through his family
that he has passed.

1751
01:30:20,707 --> 01:30:23,543
And you know,
I was happy for him

1752
01:30:23,543 --> 01:30:26,129
because he was anxious to go.

1753
01:30:26,129 --> 01:30:28,340
I mean, he said--he told me
in the interview,

1754
01:30:28,340 --> 01:30:30,300
he said, "I'm ready."

1755
01:30:30,300 --> 01:30:32,510
And I said,
"Are you afraid of death?"

1756
01:30:32,510 --> 01:30:34,137
He said, "No, I'm not.

1757
01:30:34,137 --> 01:30:35,972
"I know to be absent
from the body

1758
01:30:35,972 --> 01:30:37,557
is to be present
with the Lord."

1759
01:30:37,557 --> 01:30:39,684
- Is it still hard for you
to see a friend go like that?

1760
01:30:39,684 --> 01:30:41,770
- Oh, yeah, absolutely,
because there's a loss.

1761
01:30:41,770 --> 01:30:43,605
There's a loss of contact.

1762
01:30:43,605 --> 01:30:45,190
There's a loss of relationship.

1763
01:30:45,190 --> 01:30:49,444
You know that he's leaving
behind a wife and children.

1764
01:30:49,444 --> 01:30:51,363
And there's a sadness to it.

1765
01:30:51,363 --> 01:30:54,491
I mean, even Jesus wept
when Lazarus died...

1766
01:30:54,491 --> 01:30:56,242
Yeah.

1767
01:30:56,242 --> 01:30:57,994
- Even though he knew he was
gonna raise him from the dead.

1768
01:30:57,994 --> 01:30:59,579
So it's appropriate

1769
01:30:59,579 --> 01:31:01,998
to mourn when a friend dies.

1770
01:31:01,998 --> 01:31:03,500
And he wasn't
just a friend to me.

1771
01:31:03,500 --> 01:31:04,501
He was a hero to me.

1772
01:31:06,419 --> 01:31:07,712
Yeah, yeah.

1773
01:31:09,255 --> 01:31:10,799
Yeah, yeah.

1774
01:31:34,739 --> 01:31:36,116
Yeah.

1775
01:31:40,662 --> 01:31:42,163
Yeah.

1776
01:31:47,919 --> 01:31:49,796
Right, right.

1777
01:31:54,134 --> 01:31:59,806
- Yeah, you know,
he told me about attacks

1778
01:31:59,806 --> 01:32:02,100
he believed were from Satan
in those final days,

1779
01:32:02,100 --> 01:32:04,853
where, you know, Satan
would whisper into his ear,

1780
01:32:04,853 --> 01:32:06,646
you know, "You've told
thousands of people,

1781
01:32:06,646 --> 01:32:09,107
"millions of people,
a billion people about Jesus,

1782
01:32:09,107 --> 01:32:10,900
"but you're not going
to Heaven.

1783
01:32:10,900 --> 01:32:13,528
"You're gonna be one
of those that God's gonna say,

1784
01:32:13,528 --> 01:32:15,989
'Depart from me.
I didn't know you.'"

1785
01:32:15,989 --> 01:32:18,158
And--which, of course,
is crazy,

1786
01:32:18,158 --> 01:32:21,327
but it was--you know,
as he said to me at one point,

1787
01:32:21,327 --> 01:32:23,580
he said, "Satan is very good
at what he does."

1788
01:32:23,580 --> 01:32:25,331
And the Puritans
wrote about this,

1789
01:32:25,331 --> 01:32:29,461
that at the end, sometimes,
there's these words from Satan

1790
01:32:29,461 --> 01:32:31,796
to make you feel uncertain

1791
01:32:31,796 --> 01:32:34,424
and to make you question
your salvation, so forth.

1792
01:32:34,424 --> 01:32:37,427
And even Luis Palau felt that.

1793
01:32:40,513 --> 01:32:41,890
Yes.

1794
01:32:45,977 --> 01:32:47,187
- Uh-huh.

1795
01:33:23,890 --> 01:33:25,099
Wow.

1796
01:33:26,643 --> 01:33:28,144
Wow.

1797
01:33:40,156 --> 01:33:44,160
♪ ♪

1798
01:33:44,160 --> 01:33:45,995
Even if we are confident

1799
01:33:45,995 --> 01:33:47,497
that we're gonna spend
eternity with God,

1800
01:33:47,497 --> 01:33:50,041
the process
of dying is not appealing.

1801
01:33:50,041 --> 01:33:51,751
Yeah.

1802
01:33:51,751 --> 01:33:53,378
- In other words, nobody
wants to go through that.

1803
01:33:53,378 --> 01:33:54,420
And yes,
there's gonna be loss,

1804
01:33:54,420 --> 01:33:55,713
and we're not gonna be--

1805
01:33:55,713 --> 01:33:57,090
Luis said,
"I'm not gonna be able

1806
01:33:57,090 --> 01:33:58,883
to pick up the phone
and call Pat," his wife,

1807
01:33:58,883 --> 01:34:00,385
"or call my kids."

1808
01:34:00,385 --> 01:34:02,011
You know,
he mourned that loss.

1809
01:34:02,011 --> 01:34:03,304
Yeah.

1810
01:34:03,304 --> 01:34:04,556
But at the same time,

1811
01:34:04,556 --> 01:34:06,432
the idea
of not just being embraced

1812
01:34:06,432 --> 01:34:08,226
by Jesus in Heaven,

1813
01:34:08,226 --> 01:34:10,228
but to meet Wesley,
and Moody...

1814
01:34:10,228 --> 01:34:11,938
Yeah.

1815
01:34:11,938 --> 01:34:13,898
- And Spurgeon, and all
these heroes of the faith,

1816
01:34:13,898 --> 01:34:16,025
and to see his father,

1817
01:34:16,025 --> 01:34:18,778
and to have
a relationship with him...

1818
01:34:18,778 --> 01:34:20,697
- Yeah.
- He didn't get in this world.

1819
01:34:20,697 --> 01:34:23,449
Because we live
in a sin-stained world,

1820
01:34:23,449 --> 01:34:27,078
his dad died at an age
where Luis was too young

1821
01:34:27,078 --> 01:34:30,331
to really have a full--or
relationship with him.

1822
01:34:30,331 --> 01:34:31,916
He will have that in Heaven.

1823
01:34:31,916 --> 01:34:34,544
And I think, deep down,

1824
01:34:34,544 --> 01:34:37,881
Luis has thirsted
for that his whole life.

1825
01:34:37,881 --> 01:34:41,676
♪ ♪

1826
01:34:50,268 --> 01:34:51,811
[speaking Spanish]

1827
01:35:35,521 --> 01:35:38,775
- And even as your father
was a poor example,

1828
01:35:38,775 --> 01:35:41,694
and your mother
left your family,

1829
01:35:41,694 --> 01:35:43,863
you come
to the living Father.

1830
01:35:43,863 --> 01:35:45,990
He is the ideal Father.

1831
01:35:45,990 --> 01:35:47,951
And Jesus says,
"Young man,

1832
01:35:47,951 --> 01:35:50,453
"you've got
to make your own decision.

1833
01:35:50,453 --> 01:35:53,790
"You cannot have
a thirdhand faith.

1834
01:35:53,790 --> 01:35:56,793
"You cannot inherit your faith
from your folks

1835
01:35:56,793 --> 01:35:58,211
"or your grandparents.

1836
01:35:58,211 --> 01:36:01,422
God has no grandchildren."

1837
01:36:01,422 --> 01:36:05,176
Jesus Christ is relevant today
to the Soviet Union.

1838
01:36:05,176 --> 01:36:08,763
[speaking Russian]

1839
01:36:08,763 --> 01:36:10,640
- As far as the east is
from the west...

1840
01:36:10,640 --> 01:36:13,142
[speaking Russian]

1841
01:36:13,142 --> 01:36:15,103
- So far he removes
our transgressions.

1842
01:36:15,103 --> 01:36:17,605
[speaking Russian]

1843
01:36:17,605 --> 01:36:19,857
- You will never forget
this night.

1844
01:36:19,857 --> 01:36:22,652
[speaking Chinese]

1845
01:36:22,652 --> 01:36:24,112
I know I'll never forget it.

1846
01:36:29,951 --> 01:36:35,331
♪ No hay lugar más alto ♪

1847
01:36:41,879 --> 01:36:44,841
[singing Spanish]

1848
01:36:44,841 --> 01:36:51,764
♪ ♪

1849
01:36:54,934 --> 01:36:59,731
- I am sure because
now I have children of my own

1850
01:36:59,731 --> 01:37:03,651
that for Mom and Dad to see
the direction I was going,

1851
01:37:03,651 --> 01:37:08,322
to see my love of partying,

1852
01:37:08,322 --> 01:37:10,825
and--even though
I was a respectful kid,

1853
01:37:10,825 --> 01:37:14,746
I think they knew I was moving
in the wrong direction.

1854
01:37:14,746 --> 01:37:18,458
A lot of times, people
will say things to me like,

1855
01:37:18,458 --> 01:37:21,878
"I know why you were
such a rebellious kid,

1856
01:37:21,878 --> 01:37:24,630
"because your dad was
heavy-handed

1857
01:37:24,630 --> 01:37:26,466
"or, you know, he was shoving
his religion

1858
01:37:26,466 --> 01:37:27,675
down your throat."

1859
01:37:27,675 --> 01:37:29,510
And I've always
really resisted that

1860
01:37:29,510 --> 01:37:31,429
because that's not the fact
in my case.

1861
01:37:31,429 --> 01:37:34,390
[soft music]

1862
01:37:34,390 --> 01:37:37,185
♪ ♪

1863
01:37:37,185 --> 01:37:39,896
This place, this cemetery,

1864
01:37:39,896 --> 01:37:43,483
is kind of representative
of one of those places,

1865
01:37:43,483 --> 01:37:46,778
probably everybody has
something like this in life.

1866
01:37:46,778 --> 01:37:49,530
It sort of represents some
of the worst parts,

1867
01:37:49,530 --> 01:37:52,158
most foolish parts of my life.

1868
01:37:52,158 --> 01:37:55,119
And now, you know,
to have Dad buried here,

1869
01:37:55,119 --> 01:37:56,788
my grandparents buried here,

1870
01:37:56,788 --> 01:37:59,290
it's just a place
of great reflection,

1871
01:37:59,290 --> 01:38:02,710
and it represents
the gratitude of my heart

1872
01:38:02,710 --> 01:38:05,171
for the love of my parents.

1873
01:38:09,050 --> 01:38:12,011
[upbeat piano music]

1874
01:38:12,011 --> 01:38:16,557
♪ ♪

1875
01:38:16,557 --> 01:38:18,810
Humanly speaking,

1876
01:38:18,810 --> 01:38:21,562
I would want one more day,
one more week.

1877
01:38:21,562 --> 01:38:23,689
I would want more time.

1878
01:38:23,689 --> 01:38:27,401
So when we say
it was an untimely death,

1879
01:38:27,401 --> 01:38:30,613
not in God's economy,
it wasn't.

1880
01:38:30,613 --> 01:38:34,283
To me, Luis lived 86 years.

1881
01:38:34,283 --> 01:38:37,954
We were married for 60.
That's not enough.

1882
01:38:37,954 --> 01:38:41,499
♪ ♪

1883
01:38:43,000 --> 01:38:45,920
I am teaching myself
to say he died.

1884
01:38:45,920 --> 01:38:49,632
He didn't pass.
He isn't lost.

1885
01:38:49,632 --> 01:38:53,594
Because it's reality.

1886
01:38:53,594 --> 01:38:56,013
You know,
the other words--lost?

1887
01:38:56,013 --> 01:38:58,391
He's not lost.
I know where he is.

1888
01:38:58,391 --> 01:39:05,314
♪ ♪

1889
01:39:22,874 --> 01:39:24,542
- Do you remember the moment
when you first saw her,

1890
01:39:24,542 --> 01:39:26,002
first, like,
actually talked to her?

1891
01:39:26,002 --> 01:39:28,087
- Yeah, We were outside
the train station in Chicago.

1892
01:39:28,087 --> 01:39:31,716
I was with a friend of mine,
and she was with a guy

1893
01:39:31,716 --> 01:39:35,094
from my neighborhood
who she had met at a dance.

1894
01:39:35,094 --> 01:39:37,889
And he saw me
and recognized me.

1895
01:39:37,889 --> 01:39:39,515
"Hey, Lee," and "Yeah,"

1896
01:39:39,515 --> 01:39:40,850
and we came over,
and we were talking,

1897
01:39:40,850 --> 01:39:42,351
and he introduced me
to this girl.

1898
01:39:42,351 --> 01:39:44,270
And I thought,

1899
01:39:44,270 --> 01:39:46,898
"Wow, I'll have to find out
how to contact her."

1900
01:39:46,898 --> 01:39:48,357
And...

1901
01:39:48,357 --> 01:39:50,318
- Did you know
at 14 she would be the one?

1902
01:39:50,318 --> 01:39:51,694
- She went home
and told her mom,

1903
01:39:51,694 --> 01:39:53,362
"I met the boy
I'm gonna marry."

1904
01:39:53,362 --> 01:39:55,865
Her mom was kind
of condescending.

1905
01:39:55,865 --> 01:39:57,366
"Oh, sure, you did," you know.

1906
01:39:57,366 --> 01:39:59,911
And so I think,
just to prove her wrong,

1907
01:39:59,911 --> 01:40:02,371
she married me.

1908
01:40:02,371 --> 01:40:04,248
- This is the
no-champagne wedding.

1909
01:40:04,248 --> 01:40:05,583
- That was
the no-champagne wedding.

1910
01:40:05,583 --> 01:40:07,168
Yep, that's right.

1911
01:40:07,168 --> 01:40:08,669
We were so young
when we got married,

1912
01:40:08,669 --> 01:40:09,921
they had champagne glasses,

1913
01:40:09,921 --> 01:40:11,380
but we couldn't drink
champagne,

1914
01:40:11,380 --> 01:40:13,090
'cause we were too young,
so they were filled with milk.

1915
01:40:13,090 --> 01:40:15,343
[laughs]

1916
01:40:15,343 --> 01:40:19,722
- What does Leslie mean to you,
personally, as Lee, the guy?

1917
01:40:19,722 --> 01:40:21,015
- Yeah.
- Not the author, not the dad.

1918
01:40:21,015 --> 01:40:22,350
- Yeah.
- Just Lee.

1919
01:40:22,350 --> 01:40:25,394
- You know,
we're best of friends.

1920
01:40:25,394 --> 01:40:28,314
You know,
meeting as young as we did,

1921
01:40:28,314 --> 01:40:31,067
at 14, kind of growing up
together in that way,

1922
01:40:31,067 --> 01:40:33,152
through those tumultuous
high school years,

1923
01:40:33,152 --> 01:40:37,448
and then college,
we just bonded very strongly.

1924
01:40:37,448 --> 01:40:40,117
And she's just my best friend.

1925
01:40:40,117 --> 01:40:42,662
I can't imagine life
without her.

1926
01:40:42,662 --> 01:40:45,414
I can't imagine
where I would be

1927
01:40:45,414 --> 01:40:47,833
if God hadn't brought her
into my life.

1928
01:40:47,833 --> 01:40:50,670
♪ ♪

1929
01:40:50,670 --> 01:40:56,133
- You know, I don't remember,
at any moment,

1930
01:40:56,133 --> 01:40:58,427
feeling like I was ready
to give up.

1931
01:40:58,427 --> 01:41:03,307
I remember worrying
that he would walk out,

1932
01:41:03,307 --> 01:41:07,812
that he would say
he'd had enough.

1933
01:41:07,812 --> 01:41:09,522
I was also convinced

1934
01:41:09,522 --> 01:41:12,525
it was gonna be
a deathbed conversion.

1935
01:41:12,525 --> 01:41:14,610
I didn't imagine him
ever accepting Christ

1936
01:41:14,610 --> 01:41:17,280
until maybe on his deathbed.

1937
01:41:17,280 --> 01:41:20,491
♪ ♪

1938
01:41:20,491 --> 01:41:23,369
Oftentimes,
I could sense God saying,

1939
01:41:23,369 --> 01:41:25,913
"Remember, you have the truth.

1940
01:41:25,913 --> 01:41:28,249
"He doesn't.
He doesn't know.

1941
01:41:28,249 --> 01:41:31,043
"You're expecting him
to act in a way

1942
01:41:31,043 --> 01:41:32,670
"he's incapable of acting.

1943
01:41:32,670 --> 01:41:35,131
"Hold your anger.
Hold your tongue.

1944
01:41:35,131 --> 01:41:37,133
"Do what's right.
Be patient.

1945
01:41:37,133 --> 01:41:39,593
I'm bigger than both of you."

1946
01:41:45,349 --> 01:41:48,394
- I'm unaware of ever having
reached anyone for the Lord.

1947
01:41:48,394 --> 01:41:52,189
I see myself as a link
in the chain--other than Lee.

1948
01:41:52,189 --> 01:41:55,151
[dramatic music]

1949
01:41:55,151 --> 01:42:02,074
♪ ♪

1950
01:42:21,177 --> 01:42:27,058
- ♪ Let me wipe
your tears away ♪

1951
01:42:27,058 --> 01:42:29,226
- If we accept what
the near-death experiences

1952
01:42:29,226 --> 01:42:31,270
tell us about life reviews,

1953
01:42:31,270 --> 01:42:33,481
people talk about how
they almost feel like

1954
01:42:33,481 --> 01:42:36,525
they're judging themselves,
and that from Jesus,

1955
01:42:36,525 --> 01:42:38,152
they're getting a sense
of mercy,

1956
01:42:38,152 --> 01:42:40,529
forgiveness, grace, and love.

1957
01:42:40,529 --> 01:42:43,574
And so from that perspective,
I think it's not gonna be

1958
01:42:43,574 --> 01:42:45,576
as daunting of an experience

1959
01:42:45,576 --> 01:42:47,912
as maybe I otherwise thought
it would be.

1960
01:42:47,912 --> 01:42:49,872
♪ Wipe your tears ♪

1961
01:42:49,872 --> 01:42:51,749
- Yeah, I remember
getting the job

1962
01:42:51,749 --> 01:42:53,626
at the "Chicago Tribune"
and wanting

1963
01:42:53,626 --> 01:42:56,879
to have that front-page byline
the first time,

1964
01:42:56,879 --> 01:42:59,965
knowing my dad would open it
and see it.

1965
01:42:59,965 --> 01:43:01,759
"That's Lee!"

1966
01:43:01,759 --> 01:43:04,512
And just show him that I've
accomplished something,

1967
01:43:04,512 --> 01:43:06,722
I've become somebody.

1968
01:43:06,722 --> 01:43:10,226
♪ ♪

1969
01:43:10,226 --> 01:43:13,771
I think of the split second
that our lives intersected

1970
01:43:13,771 --> 01:43:16,607
on a street corner
in downtown Chicago.

1971
01:43:16,607 --> 01:43:19,235
There's no way,
humanly speaking,

1972
01:43:19,235 --> 01:43:20,820
that we ever would have met.

1973
01:43:20,820 --> 01:43:22,196
It was the beginning

1974
01:43:22,196 --> 01:43:24,240
of this incredible
relationship.

1975
01:43:24,240 --> 01:43:26,951
♪ ♪

1976
01:43:26,951 --> 01:43:30,871
She tolerated me during
those years of rebellion

1977
01:43:30,871 --> 01:43:34,208
'cause I was angry
and lashing out many times.

1978
01:43:34,208 --> 01:43:36,419
But she persevered.
She prayed.

1979
01:43:36,419 --> 01:43:40,673
She prayed for me every day
for two years.

1980
01:43:40,673 --> 01:43:43,426
My daughter, Alison--
when she was a toddler,

1981
01:43:43,426 --> 01:43:45,845
if she was alone
in the living room,

1982
01:43:45,845 --> 01:43:47,972
playing with some blocks,
some toys, or whatever,

1983
01:43:47,972 --> 01:43:50,015
and she would hear me
come home from work

1984
01:43:50,015 --> 01:43:52,810
through the front door,
her natural reaction was just

1985
01:43:52,810 --> 01:43:54,728
to gather her toys,
and go in her room,

1986
01:43:54,728 --> 01:43:56,355
and shut the door.

1987
01:43:56,355 --> 01:43:58,149
"Was he gonna be drunk again?

1988
01:43:58,149 --> 01:44:00,609
"Was he gonna be yelling,
and screaming,

1989
01:44:00,609 --> 01:44:02,445
"and kicking holes
in the wall?

1990
01:44:02,445 --> 01:44:06,824
At least it was nice
and quiet in here."

1991
01:44:06,824 --> 01:44:09,827
It was four or five months
after I became a Christian,

1992
01:44:09,827 --> 01:44:13,289
and Alison had begun
to see changes in me,

1993
01:44:13,289 --> 01:44:15,291
and so one Sunday morning,

1994
01:44:15,291 --> 01:44:17,376
she came up to Leslie,
and she said,

1995
01:44:17,376 --> 01:44:22,006
"I want God to do for me
what he's done for Daddy."

1996
01:44:22,006 --> 01:44:24,675
God changes everything.

1997
01:44:24,675 --> 01:44:31,599
♪ ♪

1998
01:44:41,400 --> 01:44:44,111
So I asked Luis, I said,
"Luis, if you could send

1999
01:44:44,111 --> 01:44:46,280
"a text message
back from Heaven,

2000
01:44:46,280 --> 01:44:49,783
what do you think
it would say?"

2001
01:44:49,783 --> 01:44:51,660
And he thought for a second,
and then he said,

2002
01:44:51,660 --> 01:44:54,663
"I think I'd say,
'Go for it.'"

2003
01:44:54,663 --> 01:44:56,874
♪ ♪

2004
01:44:56,874 --> 01:44:58,918
If we believe
that Heaven is true,

2005
01:44:58,918 --> 01:45:00,419
that it's real,

2006
01:45:00,419 --> 01:45:02,338
that should affect
our everyday lives,

2007
01:45:02,338 --> 01:45:04,590
our attitudes,
our perspective,

2008
01:45:04,590 --> 01:45:07,301
the way we treat people,
the way we spend our money,

2009
01:45:07,301 --> 01:45:08,969
the way we spend our time.

2010
01:45:08,969 --> 01:45:11,347
It should ripple
through every aspect

2011
01:45:11,347 --> 01:45:13,390
of our lives.

2012
01:45:13,390 --> 01:45:15,434
At some point, we realize

2013
01:45:15,434 --> 01:45:18,354
that when we close our eyes
in this world,

2014
01:45:18,354 --> 01:45:20,648
that isn't the end
of our existence,

2015
01:45:20,648 --> 01:45:23,609
but there's another chapter
to come.

2016
01:45:23,609 --> 01:45:30,533
♪ ♪

2017
01:45:54,390 --> 01:45:58,185
♪ Where did you go ♪

2018
01:45:58,185 --> 01:46:02,147
♪ Where I could not follow? ♪

2019
01:46:02,147 --> 01:46:06,318
♪ A place to call home ♪

2020
01:46:06,318 --> 01:46:10,072
♪ Where time
can't be borrowed ♪

2021
01:46:10,072 --> 01:46:14,368
♪ I'm waiting for a sign ♪

2022
01:46:14,368 --> 01:46:18,330
♪ I'm waiting for you ♪

2023
01:46:18,330 --> 01:46:22,376
♪ Now we're worlds apart ♪

2024
01:46:22,376 --> 01:46:26,714
♪ But how could that be? ♪

2025
01:46:26,714 --> 01:46:30,342
♪ It was never fair
for me to say goodbye ♪

2026
01:46:30,342 --> 01:46:34,305
♪ When I never said hello ♪

2027
01:46:34,305 --> 01:46:37,850
♪ I'm waiting for you ♪

2028
01:46:37,850 --> 01:46:42,104
♪ I hope
that I'll meet you someday ♪

2029
01:46:42,104 --> 01:46:45,357
♪ There's something inside me
that speaks to me ♪

2030
01:46:45,357 --> 01:46:49,820
♪ Comforts me, guides me,
and shows me the way ♪

2031
01:46:49,820 --> 01:46:53,991
♪ While I'm caught
between Heaven and Hell ♪

2032
01:46:53,991 --> 01:46:58,954
♪ ♪

2033
01:46:58,954 --> 01:47:02,875
♪ I lie awake ♪

2034
01:47:02,875 --> 01:47:07,254
♪ In dark, lonely nights ♪

2035
01:47:07,254 --> 01:47:10,382
♪ All these memories
that could have been ♪

2036
01:47:10,382 --> 01:47:14,762
♪ These pictures,
they keep me awake ♪

2037
01:47:14,762 --> 01:47:18,849
♪ I'm waiting for a sign ♪

2038
01:47:18,849 --> 01:47:22,353
♪ I'm waiting for you ♪

2039
01:47:22,353 --> 01:47:26,607
♪ I hope
that I'll meet you someday ♪

2040
01:47:26,607 --> 01:47:29,568
♪ There's something inside me
that speaks to me ♪

2041
01:47:29,568 --> 01:47:34,239
♪ Comforts me, guides me,
and shows me the way ♪

2042
01:47:34,239 --> 01:47:38,577
♪ While I'm caught
between Heaven and Hell ♪

2043
01:47:38,577 --> 01:47:42,623
♪ I hope
that I'll meet you someday ♪

2044
01:47:42,623 --> 01:47:45,959
♪ There's something inside me
that speaks to me ♪

2045
01:47:45,959 --> 01:47:50,297
♪ Comforts me, guides me,
and shows me the way ♪

2046
01:47:50,297 --> 01:47:54,677
♪ While I'm caught
between Heaven and Hell ♪

2047
01:47:54,677 --> 01:48:01,600
♪ ♪

2048
01:49:01,326 --> 01:49:07,624
♪ You, I hope
that I'll meet you someday ♪

2049
01:49:07,624 --> 01:49:10,794
♪ There's something inside me
that speaks to me ♪

2050
01:49:10,794 --> 01:49:15,299
♪ Comforts me, guides me,
and shows me the way ♪

2051
01:49:15,299 --> 01:49:19,845
♪ While I'm caught
between Heaven and Hell ♪

2052
01:49:19,845 --> 01:49:23,724
♪ I hope
that I'll meet you someday ♪

2053
01:49:23,724 --> 01:49:27,102
♪ There's something inside me
that speaks to me ♪

2054
01:49:27,102 --> 01:49:31,523
♪ Comforts me, guides me,
and shows me the way ♪

2055
01:49:31,523 --> 01:49:35,611
♪ While I'm caught
between Heaven and Hell ♪

2056
01:49:35,611 --> 01:49:39,656
♪ ♪