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The strange story
of Barry Minkow,
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00:00:07,977 --> 00:00:09,969
conman turned
fraud investigator,
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00:00:09,971 --> 00:00:11,971
who just found out
he's heading back to jail.
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00:00:11,973 --> 00:00:15,533
In 2008, he targeted
giant homebuilder
Lennar Homes.
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But the government says
in that case,
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he wasn't exposing fraud,
he was committing it.
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According to court filings,
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00:00:21,491 --> 00:00:24,526
Minkow spread
false information
about Lennar,
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00:00:24,528 --> 00:00:28,555
while at the same time,
profiting from short sales
of the company's stock,
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which lost more than
$400 million in value.
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[man 1] Barry Minkow
is just an enigma.
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[man 2] Barry's
a very dangerous man.
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[man 3] The kid
was really a genius.
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[man 4] This guy
will be around conning people
until the end of his life.
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[overlapping voices]
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Barry Minkow. Barry Minkow.
Barry Minkow. Barry Minkow...
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[woman 1] ZZZZ Best.
ZZZZ Best.
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Okay, come over here.
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[Lisa] He just came home
one day and said, "That's it,
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get everything packed up,
we've got to get out of here,
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we've gotta leave."
He says, "I got in trouble,
We gotta go."
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[Barry] "Are the kids
in the car, dogs,
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00:01:04,153 --> 00:01:07,246
we got everything?"
"Where we going?"
"Don't know."
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I didn't know
where we were going, nothing.
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He just says,
"I got in trouble,
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I'm being indicted
and we gotta get outta here
because all the news crews
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are gonna start
showing up here
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and I don't want you
part of this, I wanna
protect you from this."
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He just wanted to run.
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[Barry]
"What do we tell the boys?"
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"Nothing."
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And I remember
kinda getting teary-eyed
and crying.
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And he was just nails.
He says, "What are you cry...
Don't cry."
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And I was like,
"Oh, my gosh,
what's happening?"
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He said, "Don't let the kids
see you cry."
I'm like, "Okay."
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[Barry] '"Everything
gonna be all right?"
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"Probably not,
but we'll get through it."
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It's almost like
when you have to evacuate.
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There's a fire or something,
an evacuation,
you don't know.
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"What do I bring,
what do I do?"
And it was really surreal.
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We just pulled out of
our driveway and left.
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He said that he was
getting into some trouble
with Lennar
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because he caused
their company
to lose a lot of stock.
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So I thought, "Okay, wow,"
you know, it's like,
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"Well, I hope this thing
gets cleared up
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and, you know,
life gets back to normal
again," right?
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I didn't know
what the future was to hold.
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I didn't know,
I really didn't know.
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I never
in a million years thought
that something like that
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would ever happen again
in his life.
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I don't know if I was naive,
or if I was just too...
um, too trusting?
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I never believed that you
would be able to make those
kind of mistakes again.
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I just wanted a healthy,
normal family.
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I thought I had that.
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We did have that.
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[Barry] I preached
on a Sunday
and left on a Monday.
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Left everybody.
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I had elders at the church
that were my best friends.
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Had no clue
I was addicted to OxyContin.
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Had no clue
I was living a double life.
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They literally saved my life,
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and what they got in return...
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was 11 years later,
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me escaping
in the middle of the night...
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betraying every one of them.
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Everything I swore
that I would never do again...
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I was practicing.
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[Scott] When Barry left,
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the next day, Monday,
when we came to work,
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each of us had a note.
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And it basically said,
"I'm going to prison.
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That's what you get for
trying to help people out."
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It had something
like that in there.
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"I'm sorry that you guys
are gonna experience
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a little hardship."
That was about it,
you know,
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and there wasn't
any kind of acknowledgement
of wrongdoing, you know,
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it was just kind of like,
"See you later.
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Stinks to be you."
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It was a very difficult time.
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The people were devastated.
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[Barry] When I was driving
from San Diego to Tennessee,
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it's March, 2011,
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like, almost
my 14th anniversary to the day
at my church,
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car was full of suitcases,
dogs, two kids and Lisa.
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Resigned from the church,
it's all over the media.
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And I remember that stretch
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and I just thought
about Peanut and just cried.
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[actor playing Peanut]
Barry Minkow, you a quitter.
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When things get tough,
you look for shortcuts,
you quit.
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You quit on your family,
you quit on your friends,
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you quit on God.
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If he was looking down,
he's, like, I...
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"I taught you
better than that."
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You know,
when you're in prison,
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you make promises
and I'll tell you
one of the promises,
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"I'm never doing that again."
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And at the time, you mean it.
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I mean, I really meant it.
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When Peanut and I
were making our plans...
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00:04:48,432 --> 00:04:50,332
to pastor a church
when I got out,
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00:04:52,228 --> 00:04:55,487
securities fraud, tax
fraud and embezzlement
were never part of it.
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[Lisa] First stop was to
my mom and dad's in Arizona
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where they lived at the time.
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And I said I've got to see
my mom and dad
before we go anywhere.
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So we drove up there
and spent the night there
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and that was really emotional.
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My parents kept saying,
"You're strong.
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You're gonna be okay.
You're strong. You're strong."
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You know, they were
really encouraging to me.
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And along the way,
we'd stop at hotels
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and go in the swimming pool
and to the boys,
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they were like six or seven,
they thought
it was a great time.
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They didn't understand.
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They just knew that Dad
was going cross country
with them
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and that was fun.
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We landed
in Crossville, Tennessee.
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It's... it's weird.
You move into a small town
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where nobody knows you,
and I thought,
"This is strange."
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But that's what we did.
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It was a really weird,
confusing, hard time.
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I just didn't want
to be there.
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I wanted to be home,
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I wanted to be back
with our family.
I wanted to be home.
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I'm sitting there saying,
"Yeah, so, we're gonna
take the boys,
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we're gonna pack up,
we're gonna move to Tennessee,
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and everything's
gonna be okay,
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and I'm going to jail, and...
your husband's a crook."
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[Lisa]
When he went to get indicted,
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he was sentenced to
Lexington, Kentucky,
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00:06:05,221 --> 00:06:08,056
and I realized he'd want us
close enough to come visit.
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[news anchor] In March,
Minkow agreed to plead guilty
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to a single count
of conspiracy
to commit securities fraud
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to avoid what could have been
a 30-year
federal prison sentence.
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Thursday, a federal judge
sentenced him to five years
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00:06:21,339 --> 00:06:25,332
and recommended
drug rehabilitation
for his OxyContin addiction.
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He must cooperate
with authorities,
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still investigating
his business dealings.
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He must also pay Lennar
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more than half a billion
dollars in restitution,
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which his attorney concedes
is not likely to happen.
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When I went to get
sentenced for Lennar,
I was a first-time offender
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because 16 years had passed
since as the ZZZZ Best case,
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and under federal law,
if you go 15 clean,
you're clean.
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So, I was
a first-time offender.
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Lisa knew I'd get five years,
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but I'd only have to do
30 months
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because I had
the drug program
and good time.
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I'm just getting off OxyContin
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because this was
looming in on me.
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So I went from
OxyContin to morphine
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00:07:01,673 --> 00:07:03,231
and then I went from morphine
to Vicodin,
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and then Vicodin to nothing,
that's how I stopped.
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[Lisa] One day
he turned himself in,
and really was very distant.
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I mean, I'm sure it was
very painful for him too,
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like, "Wow, here I go,
you know,
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I'm leaving my family behind,
who knows
what's gonna happen?"
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And he just left.
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The boys were eight years old,
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seven or eight years old,
they were young.
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I just wanted everything
still to be okay,
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even though everything
was not okay,
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I was trying to act
like everything--
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I was just the world's
greatest kind of actor.
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And as long as they
had their mom,
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as long as they were with me,
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they were gonna be okay,
'cause I was gonna
take care of 'em.
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I was gonna...
We were gonna be okay.
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Barry went back to prison
for a second time.
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This was the Lennar stuff.
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And while he's in prison,
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apparently the FBI
is investigating his church.
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When Barry's gone,
he's unable to control.
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Him and Shannon,
who was Barry's
first secretary...
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00:08:12,164 --> 00:08:14,131
[interviewer]
Did Shannon work for
Fraud Discovery Institute?
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00:08:14,133 --> 00:08:15,465
She worked for both,
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00:08:15,467 --> 00:08:18,961
which was wrong, I mean,
she was double dipping.
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00:08:18,963 --> 00:08:23,591
But Shannon went
running after Barry
when Barry was gone.
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She packed up and moved
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00:08:24,552 --> 00:08:27,486
to move out
closer to where he was.
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All of a sudden,
information starts
becoming available
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because he's not there
to control it.
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00:08:32,077 --> 00:08:35,145
Documentation in the mail
that was previously
being stolen,
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00:08:35,147 --> 00:08:39,508
phone calls that are now being
answered by one of us
instead of by them.
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00:08:40,469 --> 00:08:44,330
Why are we getting
a credit card for $50,000?
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00:08:44,332 --> 00:08:46,398
And here's another one
for $40,000,
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00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:48,167
and this says Lloyd
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00:08:48,169 --> 00:08:50,227
or this says
so and so, or...
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00:08:50,229 --> 00:08:52,922
What's this bank statement
to the church?
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00:08:52,924 --> 00:08:54,524
So, all of a sudden,
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00:08:54,526 --> 00:08:57,251
all these things
just began to be made known.
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00:08:59,422 --> 00:09:02,215
The FBI came and said,
"We want to talk about
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00:09:02,217 --> 00:09:03,450
what you know about Barry
193
00:09:03,452 --> 00:09:05,377
and we wanna
know about Shannon."
194
00:09:05,379 --> 00:09:07,212
They had
all kinds of questions,
195
00:09:07,214 --> 00:09:10,173
and so they wanted access
to all of our records.
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00:09:12,111 --> 00:09:14,169
It just unraveled for him.
197
00:09:14,171 --> 00:09:16,305
They told me Barry had been
taking money
198
00:09:16,307 --> 00:09:18,766
from the very beginning
of when he got here.
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00:09:23,464 --> 00:09:25,198
From the very day
he came here,
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00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,025
he looked at it as a front
201
00:09:27,027 --> 00:09:29,386
where he could
have very little supervision
202
00:09:29,388 --> 00:09:30,920
or any authority over him.
203
00:09:30,922 --> 00:09:35,016
And being the senior pastor
as well as the CEO
of the corporation,
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00:09:35,018 --> 00:09:37,811
he could have free rein
and do whatever he wanted.
205
00:09:37,813 --> 00:09:41,315
He used
the congregation, the people,
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00:09:41,317 --> 00:09:44,209
he developed
relationships with people
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00:09:44,211 --> 00:09:47,905
so that he can
benefit himself
in the long run.
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00:09:47,907 --> 00:09:50,399
[interviewer] So,
let me get this right,
this is what Barry was doing,
209
00:09:50,401 --> 00:09:53,202
he was opening credit cards
in people's names
without knowing about it?
210
00:09:53,204 --> 00:09:54,963
That's correct.
211
00:09:54,965 --> 00:09:56,965
[interviewer] Right, he was
borrowing money against
the building illegally?
212
00:09:56,967 --> 00:09:58,224
[man]
That is absolutely correct.
213
00:09:58,226 --> 00:09:59,859
[interviewer] He broke in
and staged a robbery?
214
00:09:59,861 --> 00:10:01,093
[Scott]
That's correct.
215
00:10:01,095 --> 00:10:03,321
[interviewer] He was
taking advantage as a pastor
216
00:10:03,323 --> 00:10:05,757
and going round
getting money
out of grieving families?
217
00:10:05,759 --> 00:10:07,317
That's correct.
218
00:10:07,319 --> 00:10:09,953
[interviewer]
He was using the church money,
up to $3 million,
219
00:10:09,955 --> 00:10:12,214
to fund a movie
about his life,
about his redemption?
220
00:10:12,216 --> 00:10:13,982
Yeah.
221
00:10:13,984 --> 00:10:16,777
If you hired me,
I can promise you one thing
222
00:10:16,779 --> 00:10:19,238
that no one will work harder
for no other reason
223
00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:20,373
than out of gratitude
224
00:10:20,375 --> 00:10:22,867
for being given
the opportunity
225
00:10:22,869 --> 00:10:24,502
to pastor such a great church.
226
00:10:24,504 --> 00:10:27,764
I believe he started, like,
taking money from a lady
227
00:10:27,766 --> 00:10:29,766
whose wealthy husband
had died,
228
00:10:29,768 --> 00:10:30,859
and she worked at the church,
229
00:10:30,861 --> 00:10:32,093
and, like, he pleaded
with her, like,
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00:10:32,095 --> 00:10:35,289
"I have to finish this movie,
we're too far in now.
231
00:10:35,291 --> 00:10:37,024
If it all falls apart,
it's all for nothing,
232
00:10:37,026 --> 00:10:39,518
all these people's money
are lost,
233
00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,187
and we can't let that happen,
God can't let that happen,
234
00:10:42,189 --> 00:10:43,514
you can't let that happen."
235
00:10:43,516 --> 00:10:46,484
[news anchor] In 2009,
she says Minkow
came to her house
236
00:10:46,486 --> 00:10:52,140
and asked for $150,000 loan
to help finish a movie
about his life.
237
00:10:52,142 --> 00:10:55,009
[Mary]
Since he was known
and it was the pastor,
238
00:10:55,011 --> 00:10:56,269
I felt I could trust him.
239
00:10:56,271 --> 00:10:58,405
Mary says she
eventually gave Minkow
240
00:10:58,407 --> 00:11:03,034
almost $300,000,
mostly from her
home equity line of credit
241
00:11:03,036 --> 00:11:05,062
for various business ventures.
242
00:11:05,064 --> 00:11:08,957
He gave her promissory notes
and checks that turned out
to be worthless.
243
00:11:08,959 --> 00:11:10,426
Now she could lose her house.
244
00:11:10,428 --> 00:11:13,721
It's so important for you
to prove to the world
245
00:11:13,723 --> 00:11:15,389
that you're a good person,
246
00:11:15,391 --> 00:11:19,318
that you do all these
bad things that end up proving
that you're a bad person.
247
00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:21,612
He can't help himself.
He just can't.
248
00:11:21,614 --> 00:11:24,908
That's typical of what
Barry had done
249
00:11:24,910 --> 00:11:27,010
to many people in the church.
250
00:11:27,012 --> 00:11:30,172
I would have liked
to have seen some
remorse and restitution,
251
00:11:30,174 --> 00:11:33,567
uh, an apology
to the people that he hurt.
252
00:11:35,571 --> 00:11:37,162
Have I missed anything?
253
00:11:37,164 --> 00:11:38,464
Um...
254
00:11:38,466 --> 00:11:40,458
There was
a member of the church,
255
00:11:40,460 --> 00:11:43,360
his wife had died from cancer.
256
00:11:43,362 --> 00:11:46,022
There was a fairly large
life insurance policy.
257
00:11:46,024 --> 00:11:49,083
And he goes,
"I wanna do something
that honors my wife.
258
00:11:49,085 --> 00:11:53,480
Something that
remembers her life,
something that helps people."
259
00:11:53,482 --> 00:11:56,783
And so Barry said,
"I can help you with that."
260
00:11:56,785 --> 00:12:02,372
And so what he did
was he took $150,000,
I believe.
261
00:12:02,374 --> 00:12:05,067
He said that he was going
to open a children's hospital
262
00:12:05,069 --> 00:12:06,535
over in Africa
263
00:12:06,537 --> 00:12:08,604
to help children with AIDS.
264
00:12:09,765 --> 00:12:11,165
He said, to this gentleman,
265
00:12:11,167 --> 00:12:13,526
"The hospital's built,
here is a picture of it,
266
00:12:13,528 --> 00:12:16,095
this wing is named
after your wife."
267
00:12:16,097 --> 00:12:18,122
Well, it turned out
that all that was false
268
00:12:18,124 --> 00:12:20,091
and that he had
stolen the money.
269
00:12:21,227 --> 00:12:23,353
He's a fraud detective.
270
00:12:23,355 --> 00:12:26,014
[Scott]
The level of trust
that's violated
271
00:12:26,016 --> 00:12:27,782
in a situation like that...
272
00:12:27,784 --> 00:12:29,610
not only
affects them personally,
273
00:12:29,612 --> 00:12:33,080
but it affects them in a way
where they don't want to trust
anybody else ever again.
274
00:12:34,208 --> 00:12:36,742
He wrote a letter
to the elders,
275
00:12:36,744 --> 00:12:42,064
and he said, and I'm quoting,
"You knew what I was
when you hired me."
276
00:12:42,066 --> 00:12:47,261
So, no remorse,
no guilt, no anything.
277
00:12:48,164 --> 00:12:51,024
Still to this day,
there's people that won't
278
00:12:51,026 --> 00:12:53,359
darken the door of a church
because of his actions.
279
00:12:58,284 --> 00:12:59,349
Yeah.
280
00:13:03,147 --> 00:13:06,081
Looking back, it sounds crazy,
281
00:13:06,083 --> 00:13:09,310
but at the time,
I really didn't think
it was so bad.
282
00:13:37,361 --> 00:13:39,286
[Scott]
When Barry left in 2011,
283
00:13:39,288 --> 00:13:41,855
the church had about
$17 left in the bank,
284
00:13:41,857 --> 00:13:44,583
and it was hemorrhaging money.
285
00:13:44,585 --> 00:13:49,780
Of the 700 people
there was maybe...
pfft, I don't know,
286
00:13:49,782 --> 00:13:51,115
3 left.
287
00:13:52,043 --> 00:13:55,244
We made a pretty major remodel
288
00:13:55,246 --> 00:13:59,499
to address some of the...
[sighs]
289
00:13:59,501 --> 00:14:00,700
...the features
of the buildings
290
00:14:00,702 --> 00:14:02,167
so it would give people
a fresh start.
291
00:14:02,169 --> 00:14:06,665
Wouldn't have things that
reminded them of
the Barry days, so to speak.
292
00:14:08,060 --> 00:14:12,221
We wanted to remove anything
that people had
a strong association to
293
00:14:12,223 --> 00:14:15,124
that prevented them
from having an enjoyable
294
00:14:15,126 --> 00:14:17,418
church experience with us
on the weekend.
295
00:14:17,420 --> 00:14:19,286
And so,
that included everything
296
00:14:19,288 --> 00:14:21,914
from repainting
to the carpet, to the floors
297
00:14:21,916 --> 00:14:24,042
to the lighting.
298
00:14:24,044 --> 00:14:28,771
It makes you angry,
it makes you feel ashamed
299
00:14:28,773 --> 00:14:34,002
that somebody would use God
for their own selfish gain.
300
00:14:34,004 --> 00:14:38,031
Barry used
what God intended for good,
301
00:14:38,033 --> 00:14:41,493
Barry used
for his own personal evil.
302
00:14:41,495 --> 00:14:46,257
And that's
the ultimate prostitution,
I suppose.
303
00:14:50,321 --> 00:14:53,548
I have no excuses for that.
None at all.
304
00:14:56,019 --> 00:15:00,446
'Cause it didn't happen
overnight, it wasn't like
I went from, you know,
305
00:15:00,448 --> 00:15:03,508
pastor preaching on Sundays
to insider trading,
306
00:15:03,510 --> 00:15:05,002
tax fraud, embezzlement,
307
00:15:05,004 --> 00:15:07,104
fraud uncovering and drugs.
308
00:15:07,106 --> 00:15:13,035
That happened slowly,
and it's before I knew it.
309
00:15:13,037 --> 00:15:14,161
I was the old Barry.
310
00:15:16,232 --> 00:15:17,990
It became a lifestyle.
311
00:15:17,992 --> 00:15:22,019
And always
with the excuse that,
"Well, I'm uncovering fraud,
312
00:15:22,021 --> 00:15:24,122
the church is growing,
we're expanding.
313
00:15:24,124 --> 00:15:26,850
Nobody's getting hurt,
it's all good.
314
00:15:26,852 --> 00:15:28,918
Come on, man!
315
00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:32,147
This is worse than a return
of ZZZZ Best Barry
316
00:15:32,149 --> 00:15:33,582
because I knew better.
317
00:15:33,584 --> 00:15:36,176
I knew it ended up nowhere.
318
00:15:36,178 --> 00:15:38,537
I knew I was gonna get
found out eventually.
319
00:15:38,539 --> 00:15:40,339
I had been through
all those games
320
00:15:40,341 --> 00:15:43,033
of I can do it,
cover up, and lost.
321
00:15:43,936 --> 00:15:47,930
What kind of idiot
does it again
322
00:15:47,932 --> 00:15:49,699
expecting a different result?
323
00:15:56,992 --> 00:15:58,350
So, it's 2012,
324
00:15:58,352 --> 00:16:01,486
I'm in prison
because of the Lennar thing.
325
00:16:01,488 --> 00:16:04,348
And my prayer
is that the church
doesn't come after me.
326
00:16:04,350 --> 00:16:05,982
And my lawyers say, "Listen,
327
00:16:05,984 --> 00:16:09,912
they just busted you
for a $500 million
insider trading case,
328
00:16:09,914 --> 00:16:12,239
they don't care about
$3 million at some church.
329
00:16:12,241 --> 00:16:15,368
Don't worry about it,
you're fine."
330
00:16:15,370 --> 00:16:19,230
I was supposed to go home
within months of
when I got the church.
331
00:16:19,232 --> 00:16:20,631
Then I got five more years.
332
00:16:23,028 --> 00:16:25,061
[news anchor]
At his sentencing,
he declined to speak
333
00:16:25,063 --> 00:16:28,390
and kept his head down
as victims read
emotional statements
334
00:16:28,392 --> 00:16:30,692
about how their lives
are forever changed.
335
00:16:36,217 --> 00:16:37,449
[Lisa] I have to be honest,
336
00:16:37,451 --> 00:16:39,476
I really had resentment
for that church after a while
337
00:16:39,478 --> 00:16:41,212
because when
this whole thing went down,
338
00:16:41,214 --> 00:16:44,373
we were going through
such hardship
and they didn't care.
339
00:16:45,677 --> 00:16:47,402
I'm sure the chatter was,
340
00:16:47,404 --> 00:16:51,305
"Oh, she had to have known,
she had to have known."
And I really didn't.
341
00:16:51,307 --> 00:16:53,366
There are
hundreds of people here
342
00:16:53,368 --> 00:16:56,094
who have been really hurt
by what Barry did.
343
00:16:56,096 --> 00:17:00,524
They see Lisa as a person
who was living
a much better lifestyle
344
00:17:00,526 --> 00:17:02,025
than any of them have
345
00:17:02,027 --> 00:17:03,886
at their expense.
346
00:17:03,888 --> 00:17:06,955
They don't see Lisa
as apologizing
347
00:17:06,957 --> 00:17:10,050
for her role in anything,
they don't see Lisa as
348
00:17:10,052 --> 00:17:15,181
one who is a victim,
she's maybe
playing a victim now.
349
00:17:15,183 --> 00:17:20,170
I was told by friends
that they held a big meeting
at the church
350
00:17:20,172 --> 00:17:23,406
and told everybody
in the congregation
to stay away from Barry
351
00:17:23,408 --> 00:17:25,033
and to stay away
from Lisa and the kids.
352
00:17:25,035 --> 00:17:27,202
That's what I was told.
They said,
"Stay away from them."
353
00:17:27,204 --> 00:17:29,296
And I thought, "Wow, really?"
354
00:17:29,298 --> 00:17:32,165
Like, suddenly we're the...
You know, we're evil.
355
00:17:32,167 --> 00:17:36,128
So, there's huge things
the elder board
didn't know about.
356
00:17:36,130 --> 00:17:39,356
There's huge things
the accounting firm that did
our books didn't know about.
357
00:17:39,358 --> 00:17:42,785
There's huge things that
people responsible
for doing due diligence
358
00:17:42,787 --> 00:17:45,079
on me and the church,
didn't know about.
359
00:17:45,081 --> 00:17:49,309
Certainly, Lisa,
who wasn't even there
when any of it was happening,
360
00:17:49,311 --> 00:17:52,938
wouldn't know about it at all,
of course not.
361
00:17:52,940 --> 00:17:57,034
[Scott] Clearly, she enjoyed
the lifestyle of the money
that he was taking.
362
00:17:57,036 --> 00:17:59,202
You've got to look
at the life that you're living
363
00:17:59,204 --> 00:18:01,730
and the places
that you're going and the cars
that you're driving
364
00:18:01,732 --> 00:18:06,360
and know that that's
not coming from
a pastor's bank account.
365
00:18:06,362 --> 00:18:10,156
I just... I feel guilty
because I feel like if I would
have known something,
366
00:18:10,158 --> 00:18:11,524
I would have said something.
367
00:18:11,526 --> 00:18:13,418
The government has said
she's a victim,
368
00:18:13,420 --> 00:18:15,286
she wasn't
a part of the conspiracy,
369
00:18:15,288 --> 00:18:16,988
she's an innocent spouse.
370
00:18:16,990 --> 00:18:18,715
So let me just briefly say,
371
00:18:18,717 --> 00:18:21,417
she absolutely
should have been...
372
00:18:21,419 --> 00:18:24,746
they should have
come alongside and helped her,
but they shunned her.
373
00:18:24,748 --> 00:18:28,308
We think it would be
disrespectful to
the people of the church
374
00:18:28,310 --> 00:18:30,335
to give away
their last few dollars
375
00:18:30,337 --> 00:18:33,505
to the wife of the person
who stole their money
376
00:18:33,507 --> 00:18:35,132
and may put their church
out of business.
377
00:18:35,134 --> 00:18:37,635
She had two boys
that were eight.
378
00:18:37,637 --> 00:18:39,929
She was the victim of me,
just like they were.
379
00:18:39,931 --> 00:18:42,356
And then it just went downhill
from there.
380
00:18:44,779 --> 00:18:46,946
I really don't want to
get into this.
381
00:18:46,948 --> 00:18:50,274
This is a can of worms
that I... I mean,
do you wanna go into this?
382
00:18:56,107 --> 00:18:58,466
As it turns out,
Barry was having an affair
383
00:18:58,468 --> 00:19:01,261
with the secretary.
384
00:19:01,263 --> 00:19:04,231
[Lisa] Now, he moved her out
and her family out
to Tennessee, too,
385
00:19:04,233 --> 00:19:06,024
lived in the same town.
386
00:19:06,026 --> 00:19:08,026
That's kind of twisted,
I mean, if you would agree?
387
00:19:08,028 --> 00:19:09,053
It's a little twisted.
388
00:19:09,055 --> 00:19:10,654
But I don't know
what his mindset was.
389
00:19:12,684 --> 00:19:14,984
-I'd rather not
say her name, but it's...
-[Interviewer] Okay.
390
00:19:14,986 --> 00:19:16,552
[interviewer]
What was her name?
391
00:19:16,554 --> 00:19:18,913
-Do you remember?
-Shannon.
392
00:19:18,915 --> 00:19:22,075
He was really good
at manipulating women.
393
00:19:22,077 --> 00:19:26,171
I mean, he really knew
how to take
advantage of them emotionally.
394
00:19:28,241 --> 00:19:29,866
[Lisa] Her name was Shannon.
395
00:19:29,868 --> 00:19:31,201
She was his personal assistant
396
00:19:31,203 --> 00:19:33,195
at church and also
with his businesses.
397
00:19:33,197 --> 00:19:35,330
[interviewer]
And how long were they
having an affair for?
398
00:19:35,332 --> 00:19:37,925
I don't know if I really
wanna get into that
399
00:19:37,927 --> 00:19:40,995
because I don't wanna
hurt families.
400
00:19:40,997 --> 00:19:42,254
Because I'm sure,
after all this time,
401
00:19:42,256 --> 00:19:44,056
I don't even know what
her husband knows,
402
00:19:44,058 --> 00:19:46,117
if he knows anything
or if he just kind of, like,
403
00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,053
buried his head
and kept moving in his life,
I don't know.
404
00:19:49,055 --> 00:19:51,915
He got a boob job for her
because he didn't want
to be seen
405
00:19:51,917 --> 00:19:53,742
with a girl without big boobs.
406
00:19:53,744 --> 00:19:56,911
And then he told her husband,
"You're gonna like
what happened."
407
00:19:56,913 --> 00:20:00,540
Not the...
not the affair part,
but the boob part.
408
00:20:00,542 --> 00:20:02,234
It's kind of weird, huh?
409
00:20:03,737 --> 00:20:06,397
[Barry] So, the... the...
the issue is,
410
00:20:06,399 --> 00:20:09,166
when you're in the middle
of doing something wrong,
411
00:20:09,168 --> 00:20:12,461
those consequences
get cropped out. [chuckles]
412
00:20:12,463 --> 00:20:14,355
You know what I mean,
you just see the fun.
413
00:20:16,292 --> 00:20:18,418
It's pleasure
on credit, right? So...
414
00:20:18,420 --> 00:20:25,216
The affair was evil
and horrible because
there were several victims.
415
00:20:25,218 --> 00:20:28,912
Her husband, the woman,
and her family
and her husband,
416
00:20:28,914 --> 00:20:32,140
and then my family
and my children.
417
00:20:32,142 --> 00:20:35,269
Their family moved with us
to Tennessee, that's correct.
418
00:20:36,439 --> 00:20:38,372
It was just, like,
"I wanna go with you,"
419
00:20:38,374 --> 00:20:39,999
and they were
tired of San Diego,
420
00:20:40,001 --> 00:20:41,901
and they were all
up for moving,
421
00:20:41,903 --> 00:20:44,762
the husband was involved
in approving that decision
as well.
422
00:20:44,764 --> 00:20:46,890
I knew I was going to jail.
423
00:20:46,892 --> 00:20:48,558
So it wasn't like
I was having her there
424
00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:50,986
so that we could
have this life together
on the side.
425
00:20:50,988 --> 00:20:52,754
I was going to jail.
426
00:20:52,756 --> 00:20:56,383
This family liked my family
and it would appear they were
going to help them,
427
00:20:56,385 --> 00:20:58,518
so it was very pragmatic.
428
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,313
[interviewer] So, Shannon,
she testified against Barry
as well, right?
429
00:21:01,315 --> 00:21:04,975
She did.
I think it was part of a...
a... maybe it was a plea...
430
00:21:04,977 --> 00:21:07,770
plea argue... agreement
or something.
431
00:21:07,772 --> 00:21:08,971
She did testify.
432
00:21:08,973 --> 00:21:11,173
I was the only one
they wanted.
433
00:21:11,175 --> 00:21:13,301
No resentment
about that at all.
434
00:21:13,303 --> 00:21:15,102
If I didn't want them
to go to the grand jury,
435
00:21:15,104 --> 00:21:17,030
I shouldn't have done crime
in the first place, right?
436
00:21:17,032 --> 00:21:18,231
So I'm not tripping.
437
00:21:19,301 --> 00:21:21,326
[Scott] I think she was
very concerned,
438
00:21:21,328 --> 00:21:23,228
the last few times
that I saw her
439
00:21:23,230 --> 00:21:24,387
of her culpability with Barry.
440
00:21:24,389 --> 00:21:26,389
I think she's remorseful
over it.
441
00:21:26,391 --> 00:21:29,384
You know, in all honesty,
I think Shannon realized
that she was used,
442
00:21:29,386 --> 00:21:33,147
and I think in that,
in that sense,
she was used and was a victim,
443
00:21:33,149 --> 00:21:36,375
even though she was
a perpetrator with a lot
of these things.
444
00:21:41,374 --> 00:21:43,374
I think those were
very tough years for Lisa,
445
00:21:43,376 --> 00:21:45,868
and I think that, um,
446
00:21:45,870 --> 00:21:48,104
she didn't have
a clear understanding
447
00:21:48,106 --> 00:21:52,926
of why Barry
would have an affair
with this woman.
448
00:21:52,928 --> 00:21:56,430
Lisa's perception was,
"Well, what's the matter
with me?"
449
00:21:58,492 --> 00:22:00,985
It was embarrassing.
I looked like a fool.
450
00:22:00,987 --> 00:22:02,486
I really did.
I looked like a fool.
451
00:22:02,488 --> 00:22:04,254
I never thought
that my husband,
452
00:22:04,256 --> 00:22:05,281
a pastor, a man of God,
453
00:22:05,283 --> 00:22:08,517
would do something like that
to me.
454
00:22:08,519 --> 00:22:12,246
The way I saw it was,
there's never enough attention
for Barry.
455
00:22:12,248 --> 00:22:13,973
It had nothing to do
with Lisa,
456
00:22:13,975 --> 00:22:17,002
and I think it's
very difficult for Barry
457
00:22:17,004 --> 00:22:20,605
to acknowledge the pain
that that caused.
458
00:22:20,607 --> 00:22:23,266
He's not at all
emotionally intelligent.
459
00:22:24,570 --> 00:22:26,261
It's a weight on her still.
460
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,680
[Lisa] I was mad.
"How dare you, God,
let this happen to me?"
461
00:22:45,350 --> 00:22:46,708
You're not a bad person.
462
00:22:46,776 --> 00:22:49,870
You're a good person,
you're a good wife,
you're a great mother,
463
00:22:49,872 --> 00:22:51,304
you don't deserve this.
464
00:22:53,675 --> 00:22:55,234
Just, it's very...
it's painful.
465
00:22:55,236 --> 00:22:57,002
It's really... It's just...
466
00:22:59,065 --> 00:23:01,498
Especially when
you've given him, like,
no reason.
467
00:23:01,500 --> 00:23:02,691
Like, why?
468
00:23:02,693 --> 00:23:03,926
There's no reason.
469
00:23:04,028 --> 00:23:07,121
Why would you do that to me
on top of everything else?
470
00:23:07,123 --> 00:23:09,757
That was
the nail in the coffin,
you know.
471
00:23:13,188 --> 00:23:15,213
[Barry] Lisa takes the boys,
we're not talking.
472
00:23:15,215 --> 00:23:18,775
She moved back to L.A.
Every call is, "I hate you."
473
00:23:18,777 --> 00:23:21,711
March, I find out
Lisa's gonna divorce me.
474
00:23:26,969 --> 00:23:29,069
[Lisa] When he finally
admitted to the stuff
that he was doing,
475
00:23:29,071 --> 00:23:30,763
I said, "You know what,
I can't live like this.
476
00:23:30,765 --> 00:23:32,131
I can't be married
to a man like that.
477
00:23:32,133 --> 00:23:35,092
I can't. I can't do this."
So I divorced him.
478
00:23:39,591 --> 00:23:42,625
[Sheri] When he heard
that Lisa was divorcing him,
479
00:23:42,627 --> 00:23:45,253
it was really
very painful for him.
480
00:23:45,255 --> 00:23:47,055
Very painful for him.
481
00:23:50,052 --> 00:23:51,210
[Barry]
When you're in prison
482
00:23:51,212 --> 00:23:52,778
and you're not
talking to your kids,
483
00:23:52,780 --> 00:23:55,214
and you're done...
and your wife
files for divorce,
484
00:23:55,216 --> 00:23:57,508
as one great author once said,
485
00:23:57,510 --> 00:23:59,535
"It's like dying
with your eyes open."
486
00:23:59,537 --> 00:24:01,103
You hear this,
487
00:24:01,105 --> 00:24:03,664
you can see it
in your imagination,
488
00:24:03,666 --> 00:24:05,032
and you can do
nothing about it.
489
00:24:05,869 --> 00:24:06,934
Brutal.
490
00:24:11,032 --> 00:24:13,258
I thought, "Oh, my gosh,
I haven't worked in years,"
491
00:24:13,260 --> 00:24:16,186
'cause I was home
with the kids and everything,
I'm a stay-at-home mom.
492
00:24:16,188 --> 00:24:17,621
"What am I going to do now?
493
00:24:17,623 --> 00:24:19,790
How am I even going to make
enough money
to take care of them?
494
00:24:19,792 --> 00:24:21,049
What am I gonna do?"
495
00:24:21,919 --> 00:24:23,385
[Barry]
When I went to prison,
496
00:24:23,387 --> 00:24:26,046
I had financially prepared
for her to survive,
497
00:24:26,048 --> 00:24:27,781
and it was only a help
for a couple of years
498
00:24:27,783 --> 00:24:30,309
'cause I had
a five year sentence,
I would be out.
499
00:24:30,311 --> 00:24:33,371
Then San Diego came
and I got another five years,
so...
500
00:24:33,373 --> 00:24:36,766
You can survive two years,
eight's a whole
different story.
501
00:24:36,768 --> 00:24:38,268
So, yeah, the money runs out.
502
00:24:38,270 --> 00:24:41,996
And I'm just telling you,
it was brutal, those times.
503
00:24:41,998 --> 00:24:45,125
[Lisa] I lost everything.
I lost hope,
I was angry all the time,
504
00:24:45,127 --> 00:24:48,195
I just...
I was just a recluse,
I didn't want to do anything.
505
00:24:48,197 --> 00:24:50,589
I drank just to kinda...
Every time something
would come up again,
506
00:24:50,591 --> 00:24:53,250
I didn't want to
think about it. I mean,
I just wanted it to go away.
507
00:24:53,252 --> 00:24:55,519
I wanted the pain to stop.
508
00:24:56,748 --> 00:24:58,147
[Sheri] Lisa was not
doing well.
509
00:24:58,149 --> 00:25:01,075
It got to where
she wasn't able
to care for the twins.
510
00:25:01,077 --> 00:25:03,177
They were getting
a little bit out of hand.
511
00:25:03,179 --> 00:25:05,438
I mean, they were
neglected horribly by Barry
512
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,834
when he was there,
but even when Lisa had them,
they were horribly neglected.
513
00:25:09,836 --> 00:25:12,270
You know, they weren't
doing well in school,
514
00:25:12,272 --> 00:25:15,132
I mean, they couldn't read,
they couldn't do basic math.
515
00:25:15,134 --> 00:25:18,527
They were pretty much
doing whatever they wanted
to do after school,
516
00:25:18,529 --> 00:25:20,495
and they had friends over,
and they would get in a fight
517
00:25:20,497 --> 00:25:23,123
and they'd throw stuff
at each other.
518
00:25:23,125 --> 00:25:27,453
I was drinking, I mean,
those big huge liter things.
519
00:25:27,455 --> 00:25:29,255
I don't know how much
they are, necessarily,
520
00:25:29,257 --> 00:25:31,349
but they're big,
and I would go through that
and couple of days.
521
00:25:31,351 --> 00:25:32,650
That's a lot.
522
00:25:32,652 --> 00:25:34,577
So I went over one night,
523
00:25:34,579 --> 00:25:36,846
and, um...
524
00:25:36,848 --> 00:25:38,506
picked 'em up,
brought 'em home,
525
00:25:38,508 --> 00:25:41,242
said, "You guys are now
staying with us.
You have a new life."
526
00:25:43,205 --> 00:25:44,938
[Lisa] When they went
to live with Sheri,
527
00:25:44,940 --> 00:25:47,032
I didn't have anything left.
528
00:25:47,034 --> 00:25:48,367
I felt like everything...
[voice quivers]
529
00:25:48,369 --> 00:25:49,501
I'm going to cry again.
530
00:25:49,503 --> 00:25:51,328
I felt like
everything was gone.
531
00:25:51,330 --> 00:25:55,291
After a couple of years,
we'd had them for
a couple of years by then,
532
00:25:55,293 --> 00:25:58,352
we did an intervention
on her where we all sat down
533
00:25:58,354 --> 00:26:01,289
with, you know, like,
a therapist type person,
534
00:26:01,291 --> 00:26:03,783
and the kids
read letters to her
about her behavior
535
00:26:03,785 --> 00:26:05,451
and how it's affected
their lives.
536
00:26:08,315 --> 00:26:10,181
[Lisa] It was
so heartbreaking.
537
00:26:10,183 --> 00:26:12,142
And I thought,
"They're so young
to sit here
538
00:26:12,144 --> 00:26:14,377
and have to write this
about their mom."
539
00:26:14,379 --> 00:26:16,505
They cried, they're, like,
"Mom, I just want
you to be okay,
540
00:26:16,507 --> 00:26:17,973
I want you to be better."
541
00:26:17,975 --> 00:26:19,566
You know,
"You deserve better, Mom,"
542
00:26:19,568 --> 00:26:22,569
When I sink to hearing that,
it's, like, "Man,
I let you guys down."
543
00:26:22,571 --> 00:26:24,296
So... It's shameful.
544
00:26:24,298 --> 00:26:26,065
The least I could have done
is kept it together.
545
00:26:26,067 --> 00:26:27,325
I couldn't.
546
00:26:27,327 --> 00:26:29,527
I just wasn't strong enough,
I thought I was.
547
00:26:29,529 --> 00:26:31,354
I wasn't.
548
00:26:31,356 --> 00:26:33,523
Sheri made sure
I got the help I needed.
549
00:26:33,525 --> 00:26:35,350
She said, "Lisa,
you've got to go
to in-patient."
550
00:26:35,352 --> 00:26:37,352
I said, "I can't leave,
I can't, I've got a job,
I can't."
551
00:26:37,354 --> 00:26:40,147
And she said, "You gotta,
you have to,
you don't have a choice."
552
00:26:43,978 --> 00:26:47,404
She went in treatment
the next day
and stayed for six months.
553
00:26:47,406 --> 00:26:51,008
And she's been sober
ever since then.
554
00:26:51,010 --> 00:26:53,202
She's a very
remarkable story, Lisa,
555
00:26:53,204 --> 00:26:56,998
and I think she doesn't
get a lot of credit
556
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,226
because she's behind Barry
all the time, you know.
557
00:27:00,228 --> 00:27:02,495
But she's really
a wonderful person.
558
00:27:02,497 --> 00:27:05,356
[Barry] She went through
a period in her life
559
00:27:05,358 --> 00:27:10,253
and let me see you
do any better if you were
dealt the Barry Minkow card.
560
00:27:10,255 --> 00:27:11,688
It was very hard on Lisa.
561
00:27:11,690 --> 00:27:15,150
And I made it that way,
so I certainly have compassion
562
00:27:15,152 --> 00:27:18,178
on the consequences
of what occurred
based on my decisions.
563
00:27:21,943 --> 00:27:24,235
One time,
the boys and her
came to visit.
564
00:27:25,171 --> 00:27:27,972
I hadn't seen my kids
in two years.
565
00:27:27,974 --> 00:27:31,200
And Dylan, the last time
I remember him,
he was, like, eight or nine,
566
00:27:31,202 --> 00:27:33,294
now he's, like, 11 or 12.
567
00:27:35,265 --> 00:27:38,024
I mean, we are in
a visiting room,
it's crowded...
568
00:27:38,961 --> 00:27:41,219
He leans in...
569
00:27:41,221 --> 00:27:43,589
and I grabbed his hand,
570
00:27:43,591 --> 00:27:46,450
and he looked at me
with those big eyes
571
00:27:46,452 --> 00:27:48,285
and said, "Dad...
572
00:27:50,548 --> 00:27:52,081
why did you do this?"
573
00:27:55,111 --> 00:27:58,538
I said to him that, um,
"Son...
574
00:28:01,068 --> 00:28:04,402
there is no excuse
nor answer
for why I did what I did.
575
00:28:05,430 --> 00:28:09,358
I am so sorry
for devastating your life.
576
00:28:09,360 --> 00:28:12,494
And it caused great pain
to your brother
and your mother,
577
00:28:12,496 --> 00:28:15,255
and I couldn't be more sorry
and I'm going to
make it up to you.
578
00:28:15,257 --> 00:28:17,550
We're going to be
a family again.
579
00:28:17,552 --> 00:28:19,418
No matter what."
580
00:28:26,366 --> 00:28:28,533
[Barry]
This is Lisa at our wedding,
581
00:28:28,535 --> 00:28:32,996
-and you see the
low-cut boobs there.
-God, I can't!
582
00:28:32,998 --> 00:28:35,023
-I just can't!
-She looks beautiful
as always.
583
00:28:35,025 --> 00:28:37,785
Lisa doesn't age,
that's the problem, me, um,
584
00:28:37,787 --> 00:28:40,254
-as soon as my face cleared up
my hair fell out...
-[Lisa laughs]
585
00:28:40,256 --> 00:28:43,182
But Lisa,
Lisa, she is beautiful,
586
00:28:43,184 --> 00:28:46,043
-and gets prettier
every year, don't you, babe?
-Oh, yeah.
587
00:28:46,045 --> 00:28:47,778
[interviewer] How did you
manage to convince Lisa
588
00:28:47,780 --> 00:28:50,406
to take you back, like,
you put her through all this?
589
00:28:50,408 --> 00:28:53,868
Oh, I defrauded her,
what else would I do?
She wouldn't get a...
590
00:28:53,870 --> 00:28:57,038
No, of course, I'm kidding,
don't print that.
591
00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:58,932
This is something
that people said
would never happen.
592
00:28:58,934 --> 00:29:02,427
-Yeah, yeah.
-That God brought us
back together.
593
00:29:02,429 --> 00:29:05,364
There's hope that
despite prison,
despite divorce,
594
00:29:05,366 --> 00:29:08,725
-despite my evil lifestyle...
-Mmm-hmm.
595
00:29:08,727 --> 00:29:11,854
...God brought us
back together, this is kinda
a miracle moment for us.
596
00:29:11,856 --> 00:29:14,282
-Yeah, for sure.
-That we were able to
get back together.
597
00:29:14,284 --> 00:29:16,083
Nobody... Listen, I had people
come visit me and say,
598
00:29:16,085 --> 00:29:18,378
-"You and Lisa are never
getting back together again."
-Yeah. Yeah.
599
00:29:18,380 --> 00:29:20,546
-Remember that?
-Yes, well, I...
600
00:29:20,548 --> 00:29:21,981
I didn't think that either.
601
00:29:21,983 --> 00:29:24,175
And then, um,
yeah, that's great, so...
602
00:29:24,177 --> 00:29:26,478
[Barry]
So, when I got out,
December of '18,
603
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,406
and knowing that I was
going back into this marriage
and this relationship,
604
00:29:29,408 --> 00:29:31,800
I knew one thing
to restore trust,
605
00:29:31,802 --> 00:29:35,195
never have to... have her
ask a question
about where I was.
606
00:29:35,197 --> 00:29:37,831
I don't go out
with friends at night,
I don't go to movies,
607
00:29:37,833 --> 00:29:40,025
I don't go to bars,
I don't go to clubs.
I don't do any of that.
608
00:29:40,027 --> 00:29:43,087
I'm in bed by 7:00, 7.30,
get up with the boys,
work out.
609
00:29:43,089 --> 00:29:44,388
Uh, very predictable,
my schedule.
610
00:29:44,390 --> 00:29:45,923
And that brings trust.
611
00:29:45,925 --> 00:29:48,751
She always knows,
everybody knows
where I'm at. All the time.
612
00:29:48,753 --> 00:29:51,146
There's never a hole
in my schedule.
613
00:29:51,148 --> 00:29:54,015
There's never
anything going on that
she's not aware of.
614
00:29:54,017 --> 00:29:56,443
That has slowly rebuilt trust.
615
00:29:56,445 --> 00:29:57,978
And there's still more
to rebuild.
616
00:29:57,980 --> 00:30:00,405
He was much more softer
around the edges,
617
00:30:00,407 --> 00:30:04,001
he was much easier
to talk to and he seemed like
he was the guy that I...
618
00:30:04,003 --> 00:30:06,270
that he's supposed to be.
This is the Barry
that I loved,
619
00:30:06,272 --> 00:30:08,330
this is the man
that I married.
620
00:30:09,267 --> 00:30:14,028
Jail gave him redemption
and healing and restoration,
621
00:30:14,030 --> 00:30:18,991
and it gave me restoration,
healing, forgiveness
and our family.
622
00:30:18,993 --> 00:30:22,220
And then we were remarried
in November of 2019,
623
00:30:22,222 --> 00:30:23,521
and we're a family again.
624
00:30:23,523 --> 00:30:25,415
Which is a miracle!
625
00:30:32,975 --> 00:30:33,974
Let's go, baby.
626
00:30:33,976 --> 00:30:35,242
Let's do this.
627
00:30:35,244 --> 00:30:38,204
Come on,
don't look at the camera,
you just keep walking.
628
00:30:38,206 --> 00:30:40,331
[Robert] I haven't been
in a long time.
629
00:30:40,333 --> 00:30:42,466
Excited, though,
it's nice to be back.
630
00:30:42,468 --> 00:30:44,068
Look who I've brought today.
631
00:30:44,070 --> 00:30:46,028
-What's up, man?
-What's up, brother?
How are you doing, man?
632
00:30:46,030 --> 00:30:47,430
-Good to see you again.
-Good to see you.
633
00:30:47,432 --> 00:30:49,424
Where's my sound?
Have we got a boom?
634
00:30:49,426 --> 00:30:51,326
We're gonna do the...
635
00:30:51,328 --> 00:30:53,620
[man] Yeah, we got it.
You ready?
636
00:30:55,290 --> 00:30:57,149
[Barry] Number one goal
when I got out of prison...
637
00:30:58,252 --> 00:31:00,318
was restore the family.
638
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:01,945
I had a window of opportunity
while I was out
639
00:31:01,947 --> 00:31:05,341
and she was in rehab,
to care for the boys,
to parent the boys,
640
00:31:05,343 --> 00:31:08,510
I had a limited amount of time
and I had one opportunity
to make that happen.
641
00:31:08,512 --> 00:31:09,570
Nice try, Dad.
642
00:31:09,572 --> 00:31:11,572
[Barry] I left my kids
when they were eight,
643
00:31:12,675 --> 00:31:15,234
and I came back
when they were in ninth grade.
644
00:31:15,236 --> 00:31:19,964
So it's been hard
to parent out of guilt.
645
00:31:19,966 --> 00:31:22,292
That'll keep you
running the right way.
646
00:31:22,294 --> 00:31:24,361
Don't let Dylan have
a better stomach than you.
647
00:31:24,363 --> 00:31:25,787
I'll try not to.
648
00:31:25,789 --> 00:31:27,389
Good, I've got you, son.
Are you ready?
649
00:31:27,391 --> 00:31:29,324
Stop and down,
just like you used to.
650
00:31:29,326 --> 00:31:32,486
There you go, big dog,
breathe, there you go, son.
651
00:31:32,488 --> 00:31:34,146
Attaboy.
652
00:31:34,148 --> 00:31:35,581
Stronger than you thought,
aren't you?
653
00:31:38,411 --> 00:31:41,646
He likes it a lot,
and I like it, you know,
he trains me all the time.
654
00:31:41,648 --> 00:31:43,272
He motivates me
and my brother, you know,
655
00:31:43,274 --> 00:31:45,775
he is such a hard worker
and I just, like, admire that
about him, you know.
656
00:31:45,777 --> 00:31:48,036
[Barry] Yeah, I want them
to work hard.
I hate lazy, so...
657
00:31:48,038 --> 00:31:49,504
-[Robert] Yeah.
-And he ain't lazy.
658
00:31:49,506 --> 00:31:51,665
He's got his own
clothing line.
659
00:31:51,667 --> 00:31:54,159
It's not ZZZZ Best
clothing line,
but we're working on that.
660
00:31:54,161 --> 00:31:57,763
-It's, yeah...
-We're gonna change the name,
we're gonna take it public.
661
00:31:57,765 --> 00:31:59,756
-Yeah.
-He doesn't even know
what public means.
662
00:31:59,758 --> 00:32:02,218
-I'll have him in jail
before he knows it.
-[Robert laughs nervously]
663
00:32:02,220 --> 00:32:03,586
And when he doesn't
show up for work,
664
00:32:03,588 --> 00:32:05,054
I say, "Son,
I was committing felonies
665
00:32:05,056 --> 00:32:07,014
when I was your age,
what's wrong with you?
666
00:32:07,016 --> 00:32:10,410
You're 18, I had, like,
three felonies already
when I was 18,
667
00:32:10,412 --> 00:32:13,346
what's wrong with you?
You and your brother?"
668
00:32:13,348 --> 00:32:15,173
[Sheri] He is now a parent,
669
00:32:15,175 --> 00:32:17,909
and when you're a parent,
you don't get to be selfish.
670
00:32:17,911 --> 00:32:20,370
And he's never really been
a parent to these kids.
671
00:32:20,372 --> 00:32:22,339
I have to laugh,
because he talks, like,
672
00:32:22,341 --> 00:32:24,299
you know,
like, he'll call me up
and he's, like,
673
00:32:24,301 --> 00:32:27,694
"These kids are killing me."
I'm just, like,
"Welcome to parenthood."
674
00:32:33,294 --> 00:32:35,486
[Lisa] We're all still
a work in progress.
675
00:32:35,488 --> 00:32:38,622
You come to a point
where you really grow
676
00:32:38,624 --> 00:32:40,850
and you learn how to
deal with things differently.
677
00:32:40,852 --> 00:32:43,645
Our relationship
is much better than it was
in our first marriage.
678
00:32:43,647 --> 00:32:45,747
Yeah, yeah,
it's actually better,
679
00:32:45,749 --> 00:32:47,015
we're better than we were
680
00:32:47,017 --> 00:32:48,541
when we first met
and got married.
681
00:32:48,543 --> 00:32:51,970
She overcame,
courageously, everything.
682
00:32:51,972 --> 00:32:55,140
She hasn't had a drink
in years and doing great,
683
00:32:55,142 --> 00:32:57,034
-and we call her the glue.
-[chuckles softly]
684
00:32:57,036 --> 00:32:58,769
-The rudder.
-She's the glue.
685
00:32:58,771 --> 00:33:00,663
No, you made up rudder,
I didn't say rudder.
686
00:33:00,665 --> 00:33:03,724
My friend told me that,
she told me, she says,
"You're like the rudder."
687
00:33:03,726 --> 00:33:07,428
-That's not a good analogy.
-Meaning steering the ship,
it's like the anchor.
688
00:33:07,430 --> 00:33:09,388
-The glue,
you hold us all together.
-Okay, same thing.
689
00:33:09,390 --> 00:33:11,624
What's not coming across is
do you love your husband,
or not?
690
00:33:11,626 --> 00:33:13,952
I do love my husband,
or I wouldn't have
married you again.
691
00:33:13,954 --> 00:33:15,253
Well, you're not
really, like--
692
00:33:15,255 --> 00:33:16,379
-Well--
-I'm not feeling it, hon,
693
00:33:16,381 --> 00:33:17,447
I'm not feeling it.
694
00:33:17,449 --> 00:33:20,876
He's so needy. Also.
So needy.
695
00:33:20,878 --> 00:33:23,078
I'm not feeling it,
I'm hearing
a lot of bitterness.
696
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,005
No, there's no bitterness,
there really isn't,
697
00:33:25,007 --> 00:33:27,441
there's no
bitterness anymore. No.
698
00:33:27,443 --> 00:33:29,868
[Barry] She is
the unsung hero,
in my opinion,
699
00:33:29,870 --> 00:33:31,437
in this story.
700
00:33:31,439 --> 00:33:35,399
By hook and by crook,
she held everything together,
by God's grace, and...
701
00:33:35,401 --> 00:33:37,860
[interviewer] I'm also
beginning to feel like
she could be...
702
00:33:37,862 --> 00:33:40,163
have been the biggest victim
in all these...
703
00:33:40,165 --> 00:33:41,522
There's no question
in my mind.
704
00:33:41,524 --> 00:33:43,925
-How's your life
with your husband right now?
-[Lisa] It's good.
705
00:33:43,927 --> 00:33:47,954
-Is there anybody for you
out there other than--
-No.
706
00:33:47,956 --> 00:33:49,347
You're probably not
gonna want to put this on,
707
00:33:49,349 --> 00:33:51,850
but that's why I was saying
early on,
708
00:33:51,852 --> 00:33:54,478
are you gonna be interviewing
Lisa without Barry?
709
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,140
Because Lisa with Barry,
is Barry controlling
what she says.
710
00:34:01,170 --> 00:34:02,670
-You did good.
-Thank you, hon.
711
00:34:02,672 --> 00:34:04,372
It's good.
Tell your story, it's great.
712
00:34:11,477 --> 00:34:12,543
[Barry] Guys...
713
00:34:12,545 --> 00:34:13,644
[claps]
714
00:34:13,646 --> 00:34:15,045
...can we go?
715
00:34:16,007 --> 00:34:17,707
Hi, guys.
716
00:34:17,709 --> 00:34:19,375
How are you doing?
All right, all right.
717
00:34:19,377 --> 00:34:21,536
-Good morning. Good morning.
Hi, sweetheart.
-[woman] Good morning.
718
00:34:21,538 --> 00:34:24,631
Good morning, guys.
Morning, morning.
719
00:34:24,633 --> 00:34:26,599
I see you hiding over there.
720
00:34:26,601 --> 00:34:27,926
My girl.
721
00:34:27,928 --> 00:34:29,060
Morning, guys.
722
00:34:29,062 --> 00:34:31,196
So, this is our
main shelter in here.
723
00:34:31,198 --> 00:34:33,757
We house about
50 to 80 in here.
724
00:34:33,759 --> 00:34:34,991
Great people.
725
00:34:36,220 --> 00:34:37,286
We got showers,
726
00:34:37,288 --> 00:34:38,921
meals, comfortable place
to live,
727
00:34:38,923 --> 00:34:40,014
but this is our lowest entry,
728
00:34:40,016 --> 00:34:42,216
so if we have
somebody on the street,
729
00:34:42,218 --> 00:34:45,277
we could pull them
right here immediately
and get them help.
730
00:34:47,515 --> 00:34:48,906
When I got out of prison,
731
00:34:48,908 --> 00:34:50,808
the more free time...
732
00:34:50,810 --> 00:34:54,771
the more my mind wanders
to do things that perhaps
I ought not to do...
733
00:34:54,773 --> 00:34:59,200
whether that would be
in my private life
or in overt crime.
734
00:34:59,202 --> 00:35:02,896
In prison,
I trained others exercise,
735
00:35:02,898 --> 00:35:05,491
helped them in their diet,
mentored them spiritually.
736
00:35:05,493 --> 00:35:08,160
The key to me was others.
If I could just
think about others,
737
00:35:08,162 --> 00:35:11,655
then I can do well
because I'm not
thinking about me.
738
00:35:12,984 --> 00:35:18,079
I can't believe that Barry
is helping the homeless now.
You see!
739
00:35:18,081 --> 00:35:23,109
He's found a group
that the media will target
740
00:35:23,111 --> 00:35:25,070
and they will interview Barry.
741
00:35:25,072 --> 00:35:28,540
This is just the step
of redeeming himself
742
00:35:28,542 --> 00:35:30,434
and becoming an idol
743
00:35:30,436 --> 00:35:33,862
to somebody in the media
once again.
744
00:35:33,864 --> 00:35:36,465
When I come into a place
like this, I'm looking at
everybody and thinking,
745
00:35:36,467 --> 00:35:39,293
"I've done
ten times more evil
than anybody in here,
746
00:35:39,295 --> 00:35:43,456
and I have a place to live
and they don't, so,
to balance the scales,
747
00:35:43,458 --> 00:35:45,783
I think there's a lot
I could do to help
people that are here.
748
00:35:49,548 --> 00:35:52,148
Man, you can use
the back seat, man.
749
00:35:52,150 --> 00:35:54,275
Come on, man, load up.
750
00:35:54,277 --> 00:35:55,610
We gotta load up.
751
00:35:55,612 --> 00:35:58,138
Thank you for being here.
Love you, too, man.
752
00:35:58,140 --> 00:35:59,506
Appreciate you, love you.
753
00:35:59,508 --> 00:36:00,974
Call me later.
754
00:36:00,976 --> 00:36:03,602
Or tomorrow after church,
call me after church.
755
00:36:03,604 --> 00:36:04,770
[dog barking]
756
00:36:11,596 --> 00:36:12,995
[car horn honks]
757
00:36:14,124 --> 00:36:16,457
[Barry]
So, these are bigger waters.
758
00:36:16,459 --> 00:36:19,052
-Yeah.
-Those are alkaline ones,
those are better.
759
00:36:19,054 --> 00:36:20,687
-Way better.
-They're better for you.
760
00:36:20,689 --> 00:36:23,114
[laughs]
761
00:36:23,116 --> 00:36:26,410
-Now, remember, I've got
another encampment to feed.
-[woman] Bueno.
762
00:36:26,412 --> 00:36:29,279
Okay, so we're
straightening him out
with his broken leg, right?
763
00:36:29,281 --> 00:36:30,873
-You gonna get help?
-[woman] Yeah.
764
00:36:30,875 --> 00:36:32,774
You gonna call me
if you need anything?
765
00:36:32,776 --> 00:36:35,002
[Scott] I don't think he cares
for the homeless people,
766
00:36:35,004 --> 00:36:37,438
but I think he sees it
as an opportunity.
767
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,965
Some well-meaning person
768
00:36:39,967 --> 00:36:43,394
with resources will see it
on the news and go,
"Oh, I'd like to help out."
769
00:36:43,396 --> 00:36:45,496
And that's how it starts.
770
00:36:45,498 --> 00:36:48,258
Hey, guys, Hope Of The Valley.
water and food, here you go.
771
00:36:49,194 --> 00:36:50,986
Good to see you guys.
772
00:36:50,988 --> 00:36:52,454
You guys all right?
773
00:36:52,456 --> 00:36:53,922
Love you guys.
774
00:36:53,924 --> 00:36:56,316
Hey, my man. I got water
and food for you, okay?
775
00:36:56,318 --> 00:36:58,051
All right. All right.
Good to see you, man.
776
00:36:58,053 --> 00:36:59,378
Hey, do you need a new cane?
777
00:36:59,380 --> 00:37:00,479
[man] Yeah.
778
00:37:00,481 --> 00:37:02,481
[Barry] Can you show me
the cane?
779
00:37:02,483 --> 00:37:03,741
[Barry] And then you need
a new one
780
00:37:03,743 --> 00:37:04,908
and I'll get you one.
781
00:37:04,910 --> 00:37:08,137
It'll end up the same
as every other thing
he's done.
782
00:37:08,139 --> 00:37:11,374
Manipulation of lives
for the sake
of financial gain.
783
00:37:16,331 --> 00:37:18,398
[pastor] I'm privileged
to introduce
784
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,025
this morning's speaker.
785
00:37:20,027 --> 00:37:23,754
And I'm excited of what
God's going to continue
to do in his life.
786
00:37:23,756 --> 00:37:26,823
I see him every single
Sunday morning
787
00:37:26,825 --> 00:37:30,352
with his boys
right next to him,
him and his wife
788
00:37:30,354 --> 00:37:35,215
and I want you to give
a great big welcome, amen,
789
00:37:35,217 --> 00:37:39,445
-to Brother Barry Minkow.
-[applause]
790
00:37:39,447 --> 00:37:41,639
[cheering]
791
00:37:42,909 --> 00:37:47,303
So, I'm in prison,
it's FCI Englewood.
792
00:37:47,305 --> 00:37:49,030
One day there was
this football game
793
00:37:49,032 --> 00:37:50,765
I was quarterback,
I know it's hard to believe,
794
00:37:50,767 --> 00:37:52,300
but they used to call me
Barry Bradshaw.
795
00:37:52,302 --> 00:37:53,393
I'm just kidding.
796
00:37:54,229 --> 00:37:55,362
At the end of the first half,
797
00:37:55,364 --> 00:37:57,956
there was this guy called
Shotgun. That was his name.
798
00:37:57,958 --> 00:38:02,052
I can't believe
that he's preaching again.
Unbelievable!
799
00:38:02,054 --> 00:38:04,054
Unbelievable.
800
00:38:04,056 --> 00:38:06,382
But I believe it,
at the same time.
801
00:38:08,119 --> 00:38:09,376
[Scott] The Bible
makes it very clear
802
00:38:09,378 --> 00:38:12,213
that Satan disguises himself
as an angel of light.
803
00:38:12,215 --> 00:38:15,108
And while people would say
that Barry
is a good theologian,
804
00:38:15,110 --> 00:38:18,503
I would say that Satan's
a good theologian,
but he's the devil still.
805
00:38:18,505 --> 00:38:22,199
You know them by their action
and you know them
by what drives them,
806
00:38:22,201 --> 00:38:24,301
and Barry is not
driven by love for people,
807
00:38:24,303 --> 00:38:28,063
Barry is driven
by a desire for fame
and a desire for money.
808
00:38:28,065 --> 00:38:29,556
[Barry]
Peanut came over and he goes,
809
00:38:29,558 --> 00:38:31,925
"Let me tell you something,
Barry, at ZZZZ Best, you quit.
810
00:38:31,927 --> 00:38:34,120
You took shortcuts,
your whole life
811
00:38:34,122 --> 00:38:36,789
is one, big,
repetitive quitting.
812
00:38:38,151 --> 00:38:41,118
And you have to have
a time in your life, a point,
813
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:42,378
where it stops."
814
00:38:44,115 --> 00:38:45,974
And I learned
a valuable lesson...
815
00:38:45,976 --> 00:38:48,243
not to quit
when things get tough.
816
00:38:51,073 --> 00:38:53,006
[Barry]
The biggest victim out
of everything I've done,
817
00:38:53,008 --> 00:38:54,933
let's be very clear
about this,
818
00:38:54,935 --> 00:38:58,562
if I may... Number one,
it would be Lisa
and the boys, right?
819
00:38:58,564 --> 00:39:02,124
But, you know, a close second
is the church.
820
00:39:02,126 --> 00:39:04,326
The church elder board,
the church leadership,
821
00:39:04,328 --> 00:39:06,420
the church
that was there for me.
822
00:39:06,422 --> 00:39:07,989
And then you have
823
00:39:07,991 --> 00:39:11,451
my sisters on that rung
as well, both of them.
824
00:39:11,453 --> 00:39:14,346
Being Barry Minkow
brother wasn't easy,
825
00:39:14,348 --> 00:39:17,582
but my sisters have showed
unconditional love
826
00:39:17,584 --> 00:39:20,243
through every dark moment
in my life,
827
00:39:20,245 --> 00:39:22,538
and I couldn't be
more grateful for them.
828
00:39:22,540 --> 00:39:26,174
It's been a long road of hurt
with Barry,
829
00:39:26,176 --> 00:39:30,304
but the way that I was raised,
you stick by your family,
your family's your family.
830
00:39:30,306 --> 00:39:32,865
You know, it doesn't mean that
you have to agree
with everything they do,
831
00:39:32,867 --> 00:39:33,999
but you're there for them
832
00:39:34,001 --> 00:39:37,195
and you don't turn
against them, no matter what.
833
00:39:37,197 --> 00:39:39,322
[Barry] Jeri Carr,
wonderful lady,
834
00:39:39,324 --> 00:39:41,057
did a great job,
totally innocent.
835
00:39:41,059 --> 00:39:44,252
Never knew anything was wrong
with ZZZZ Best or me.
836
00:39:44,254 --> 00:39:50,016
[Jeri] I had to totally
leave a profession
that I loved
837
00:39:50,018 --> 00:39:54,079
because I was
so blatantly blamed for,
838
00:39:54,081 --> 00:39:57,941
quote-unquote, "Lying about
the truth about Barry."
839
00:39:57,943 --> 00:40:01,303
For me, it wasn't monetary.
840
00:40:01,305 --> 00:40:03,531
He stripped me
of a whole life.
841
00:40:03,533 --> 00:40:07,201
That it actually destroyed
a part of who I am.
842
00:40:07,203 --> 00:40:09,162
[interviewer] The Swansons?
843
00:40:09,164 --> 00:40:12,023
Clearly, they had
a bad experience and...
844
00:40:12,025 --> 00:40:13,758
somebody hit them
while they were at ZZZZ Best.
845
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:15,560
That's not good. I mean,
it happened 30 years ago,
846
00:40:15,562 --> 00:40:17,120
hopefully, they've
gotten over it by now.
847
00:40:17,122 --> 00:40:19,055
But I sure would
like to apologize to them.
848
00:40:19,057 --> 00:40:20,682
Can I write them a note
or something?
849
00:40:22,887 --> 00:40:25,145
She's got a folder on you
like this...
850
00:40:25,147 --> 00:40:27,781
Snaking it in America,
there you go.
851
00:40:27,783 --> 00:40:29,542
Yeah, most do, most do.
852
00:40:29,544 --> 00:40:31,544
But, I mean,
it was a credit card deal,
853
00:40:31,546 --> 00:40:33,738
she wasn't a ZZZZ Best
stockholder or anything.
854
00:40:33,740 --> 00:40:36,266
She lost... You know,
she got her money back.
855
00:40:36,268 --> 00:40:38,501
[interviewer]
What about Mark Morze?
Is Mark Morze a victim?
856
00:40:39,404 --> 00:40:40,995
Mark did not tell you
he was a victim?
857
00:40:40,997 --> 00:40:43,965
[interviewer]
Yes, he did tell me
he was a victim.
858
00:40:43,967 --> 00:40:46,159
[Mark] The short answer is,
yeah, I wish
I'd never met him.
859
00:40:47,196 --> 00:40:50,188
Something biographically,
I grew up extremely poor.
860
00:40:50,190 --> 00:40:53,017
My dad died
before I remember him
861
00:40:53,019 --> 00:40:56,553
and my life was memories
of growing up
in Detroit, Michigan,
862
00:40:56,555 --> 00:41:00,182
with no heat, no electricity,
no telephone, no television,
no car.
863
00:41:00,184 --> 00:41:02,877
We were poor. Real poor.
864
00:41:02,879 --> 00:41:04,938
And so when
millions of dollars
865
00:41:04,940 --> 00:41:07,106
were dangled
in front of my face,
866
00:41:07,108 --> 00:41:13,004
I got introduced to a world
because of the money
I was making from Barry.
867
00:41:13,006 --> 00:41:15,165
I was being treated
like a king.
868
00:41:15,167 --> 00:41:18,126
It was an exciting time,
it was thrilling,
869
00:41:18,128 --> 00:41:22,456
but the minute things got bad,
Barry just looked out
for number one.
870
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,054
[Jonathan]
I don't think he gets a shot
871
00:41:29,056 --> 00:41:33,184
at committing another
illegal con on a grand scale.
872
00:41:33,186 --> 00:41:37,080
And the reason
is because of this.
873
00:41:42,237 --> 00:41:49,101
It is impossible
for the facts of this story
to not prove his guilt.
874
00:41:49,103 --> 00:41:55,891
And showing people
that this man isn't contrite,
he's fake, he's a conman.
875
00:41:55,893 --> 00:41:57,492
He always will be.
876
00:41:57,494 --> 00:42:01,522
What I think is different now,
is that Barry's
willing to be accountable.
877
00:42:01,524 --> 00:42:05,051
Before, he was not accountable
to anybody, thank you,
"And I'm not going to be."
878
00:42:05,053 --> 00:42:07,746
You know,
he was still the end all,
be all.
879
00:42:07,748 --> 00:42:10,181
And this time
when he's gotten out,
880
00:42:10,183 --> 00:42:13,176
I don't see him
scrambling around
881
00:42:13,178 --> 00:42:16,405
trying to find opportunities
where he's
the center of attention.
882
00:42:16,407 --> 00:42:19,900
Isn't this amazing,
how many people have been
883
00:42:19,902 --> 00:42:22,762
touched by one person
884
00:42:22,764 --> 00:42:26,699
because there is something
inside of Barry
885
00:42:26,701 --> 00:42:31,421
that pulls something inside
of each and every one of us,
886
00:42:31,423 --> 00:42:34,791
that wants to believe
the good.
887
00:42:34,793 --> 00:42:37,886
We all wanna believe
the happy endings.
888
00:42:37,888 --> 00:42:42,048
I've met some
really bad people
over my life.
889
00:42:42,050 --> 00:42:45,010
Barry has got to be
close to the top.
890
00:42:45,012 --> 00:42:48,272
I don't believe for one second
that Barry has changed.
891
00:42:48,274 --> 00:42:50,240
[interviewer] Barry also
told us that he's
in the process
892
00:42:50,242 --> 00:42:52,101
of paying everyone back.
893
00:42:52,103 --> 00:42:54,336
Well, the church has never
received a penny from Barry.
894
00:42:54,338 --> 00:42:57,265
There's no possible way
he can pay anybody back.
895
00:42:57,267 --> 00:43:00,093
He doesn't have enough
lifetimes to do that.
896
00:43:02,230 --> 00:43:03,463
[Barry]
You know what,
897
00:43:03,465 --> 00:43:07,525
I think there's something
wrong with me.
898
00:43:07,527 --> 00:43:09,986
So people like me
have to be keenly aware
899
00:43:09,988 --> 00:43:12,080
that we have the propensity
900
00:43:12,082 --> 00:43:14,182
to press
the self-destruct button.
901
00:43:14,184 --> 00:43:17,411
And, for me, success,
I could have never handled.
902
00:43:17,413 --> 00:43:19,446
Even if I just made it past,
903
00:43:19,448 --> 00:43:21,107
I would have figured out
another way to fail,
904
00:43:21,109 --> 00:43:22,441
lie, cheat, steal.
905
00:43:22,443 --> 00:43:23,576
Does that make sense?
906
00:43:23,578 --> 00:43:26,037
The yin and yang
of Barry Minkow.
907
00:43:26,039 --> 00:43:27,471
Then again, it's a story.
908
00:43:27,473 --> 00:43:30,133
It's a story that I can't wait
to see the ending of.
909
00:43:30,135 --> 00:43:31,401
So I have to live longer.