1 00:00:06,909 --> 00:00:07,975 The strange story of Barry Minkow, 2 00:00:07,977 --> 00:00:09,969 conman turned fraud investigator, 3 00:00:09,971 --> 00:00:11,971 who just found out he's heading back to jail. 4 00:00:11,973 --> 00:00:15,533 In 2008, he targeted giant homebuilder Lennar Homes. 5 00:00:15,535 --> 00:00:17,427 But the government says in that case, 6 00:00:17,429 --> 00:00:20,196 he wasn't exposing fraud, he was committing it. 7 00:00:20,198 --> 00:00:21,489 According to court filings, 8 00:00:21,491 --> 00:00:24,526 Minkow spread false information about Lennar, 9 00:00:24,528 --> 00:00:28,555 while at the same time, profiting from short sales of the company's stock, 10 00:00:28,557 --> 00:00:31,483 which lost more than $400 million in value. 11 00:00:33,245 --> 00:00:35,312 [man 1] Barry Minkow is just an enigma. 12 00:00:35,314 --> 00:00:36,906 [man 2] Barry's a very dangerous man. 13 00:00:36,908 --> 00:00:39,174 [man 3] The kid was really a genius. 14 00:00:39,176 --> 00:00:42,803 [man 4] This guy will be around conning people until the end of his life. 15 00:00:42,805 --> 00:00:44,104 [overlapping voices] 16 00:00:44,106 --> 00:00:46,599 Barry Minkow. Barry Minkow. Barry Minkow. Barry Minkow... 17 00:00:46,601 --> 00:00:48,634 [woman 1] ZZZZ Best. ZZZZ Best. 18 00:00:51,331 --> 00:00:53,290 Okay, come over here. 19 00:00:54,259 --> 00:00:57,386 [Lisa] He just came home one day and said, "That's it, 20 00:00:57,388 --> 00:00:59,254 get everything packed up, we've got to get out of here, 21 00:00:59,256 --> 00:01:01,482 we've gotta leave." He says, "I got in trouble, We gotta go." 22 00:01:01,484 --> 00:01:04,151 [Barry] "Are the kids in the car, dogs, 23 00:01:04,153 --> 00:01:07,246 we got everything?" "Where we going?" "Don't know." 24 00:01:07,248 --> 00:01:09,081 I didn't know where we were going, nothing. 25 00:01:09,083 --> 00:01:10,875 He just says, "I got in trouble, 26 00:01:10,877 --> 00:01:13,803 I'm being indicted and we gotta get outta here because all the news crews 27 00:01:13,805 --> 00:01:15,404 are gonna start showing up here 28 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:17,440 and I don't want you part of this, I wanna protect you from this." 29 00:01:17,442 --> 00:01:18,533 He just wanted to run. 30 00:01:18,535 --> 00:01:20,101 [Barry] "What do we tell the boys?" 31 00:01:20,103 --> 00:01:21,369 "Nothing." 32 00:01:21,371 --> 00:01:23,496 And I remember kinda getting teary-eyed and crying. 33 00:01:23,498 --> 00:01:26,058 And he was just nails. He says, "What are you cry... Don't cry." 34 00:01:26,060 --> 00:01:27,492 And I was like, "Oh, my gosh, what's happening?" 35 00:01:27,494 --> 00:01:29,628 He said, "Don't let the kids see you cry." I'm like, "Okay." 36 00:01:29,630 --> 00:01:31,955 [Barry] '"Everything gonna be all right?" 37 00:01:31,957 --> 00:01:34,250 "Probably not, but we'll get through it." 38 00:01:34,252 --> 00:01:35,784 It's almost like when you have to evacuate. 39 00:01:35,786 --> 00:01:38,120 There's a fire or something, an evacuation, you don't know. 40 00:01:38,122 --> 00:01:41,782 "What do I bring, what do I do?" And it was really surreal. 41 00:01:41,784 --> 00:01:43,643 We just pulled out of our driveway and left. 42 00:01:50,636 --> 00:01:52,902 He said that he was getting into some trouble with Lennar 43 00:01:52,904 --> 00:01:55,197 because he caused their company to lose a lot of stock. 44 00:01:55,199 --> 00:01:57,499 So I thought, "Okay, wow," you know, it's like, 45 00:01:57,501 --> 00:01:59,593 "Well, I hope this thing gets cleared up 46 00:01:59,595 --> 00:02:02,396 and, you know, life gets back to normal again," right? 47 00:02:02,398 --> 00:02:03,956 I didn't know what the future was to hold. 48 00:02:03,958 --> 00:02:06,158 I didn't know, I really didn't know. 49 00:02:10,023 --> 00:02:13,382 I never in a million years thought that something like that 50 00:02:13,384 --> 00:02:16,110 would ever happen again in his life. 51 00:02:16,112 --> 00:02:20,407 I don't know if I was naive, or if I was just too... um, too trusting? 52 00:02:20,409 --> 00:02:24,436 I never believed that you would be able to make those kind of mistakes again. 53 00:02:26,006 --> 00:02:29,299 I just wanted a healthy, normal family. 54 00:02:29,301 --> 00:02:30,434 I thought I had that. 55 00:02:31,504 --> 00:02:33,395 We did have that. 56 00:02:33,397 --> 00:02:35,823 [Barry] I preached on a Sunday and left on a Monday. 57 00:02:35,825 --> 00:02:38,259 Left everybody. 58 00:02:38,261 --> 00:02:41,521 I had elders at the church that were my best friends. 59 00:02:41,523 --> 00:02:44,749 Had no clue I was addicted to OxyContin. 60 00:02:44,751 --> 00:02:46,584 Had no clue I was living a double life. 61 00:02:49,047 --> 00:02:52,174 They literally saved my life, 62 00:02:52,176 --> 00:02:54,076 and what they got in return... 63 00:02:55,012 --> 00:02:57,504 was 11 years later, 64 00:02:57,506 --> 00:03:01,200 me escaping in the middle of the night... 65 00:03:01,202 --> 00:03:02,601 betraying every one of them. 66 00:03:05,331 --> 00:03:08,991 Everything I swore that I would never do again... 67 00:03:08,993 --> 00:03:10,193 I was practicing. 68 00:03:13,890 --> 00:03:15,056 [Scott] When Barry left, 69 00:03:15,058 --> 00:03:18,151 the next day, Monday, when we came to work, 70 00:03:18,153 --> 00:03:19,419 each of us had a note. 71 00:03:21,081 --> 00:03:26,076 And it basically said, "I'm going to prison. 72 00:03:26,078 --> 00:03:28,045 That's what you get for trying to help people out." 73 00:03:28,047 --> 00:03:29,838 It had something like that in there. 74 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:31,473 "I'm sorry that you guys are gonna experience 75 00:03:31,475 --> 00:03:33,768 a little hardship." That was about it, you know, 76 00:03:33,770 --> 00:03:39,599 and there wasn't any kind of acknowledgement of wrongdoing, you know, 77 00:03:39,601 --> 00:03:41,359 it was just kind of like, "See you later. 78 00:03:41,361 --> 00:03:42,527 Stinks to be you." 79 00:03:43,563 --> 00:03:45,522 It was a very difficult time. 80 00:03:45,524 --> 00:03:47,624 The people were devastated. 81 00:03:50,287 --> 00:03:56,049 [Barry] When I was driving from San Diego to Tennessee, 82 00:03:56,051 --> 00:03:58,410 it's March, 2011, 83 00:03:58,412 --> 00:04:02,440 like, almost my 14th anniversary to the day at my church, 84 00:04:02,442 --> 00:04:06,102 car was full of suitcases, dogs, two kids and Lisa. 85 00:04:07,205 --> 00:04:09,539 Resigned from the church, it's all over the media. 86 00:04:11,067 --> 00:04:12,834 And I remember that stretch 87 00:04:12,836 --> 00:04:17,097 and I just thought about Peanut and just cried. 88 00:04:22,288 --> 00:04:25,189 [actor playing Peanut] Barry Minkow, you a quitter. 89 00:04:25,191 --> 00:04:27,983 When things get tough, you look for shortcuts, you quit. 90 00:04:27,985 --> 00:04:30,185 You quit on your family, you quit on your friends, 91 00:04:30,187 --> 00:04:31,545 you quit on God. 92 00:04:31,547 --> 00:04:33,781 If he was looking down, he's, like, I... 93 00:04:36,144 --> 00:04:38,144 "I taught you better than that." 94 00:04:38,146 --> 00:04:39,337 You know, when you're in prison, 95 00:04:39,339 --> 00:04:41,940 you make promises and I'll tell you one of the promises, 96 00:04:41,942 --> 00:04:43,867 "I'm never doing that again." 97 00:04:43,869 --> 00:04:45,368 And at the time, you mean it. 98 00:04:45,370 --> 00:04:46,636 I mean, I really meant it. 99 00:04:46,638 --> 00:04:48,430 When Peanut and I were making our plans... 100 00:04:48,432 --> 00:04:50,332 to pastor a church when I got out, 101 00:04:52,228 --> 00:04:55,487 securities fraud, tax fraud and embezzlement were never part of it. 102 00:05:01,788 --> 00:05:04,080 [Lisa] First stop was to my mom and dad's in Arizona 103 00:05:04,082 --> 00:05:05,548 where they lived at the time. 104 00:05:05,550 --> 00:05:08,409 And I said I've got to see my mom and dad before we go anywhere. 105 00:05:08,411 --> 00:05:10,278 So we drove up there and spent the night there 106 00:05:10,280 --> 00:05:11,471 and that was really emotional. 107 00:05:11,473 --> 00:05:13,073 My parents kept saying, "You're strong. 108 00:05:13,075 --> 00:05:15,208 You're gonna be okay. You're strong. You're strong." 109 00:05:15,210 --> 00:05:17,068 You know, they were really encouraging to me. 110 00:05:17,070 --> 00:05:19,070 And along the way, we'd stop at hotels 111 00:05:19,072 --> 00:05:21,064 and go in the swimming pool and to the boys, 112 00:05:21,066 --> 00:05:23,892 they were like six or seven, they thought it was a great time. 113 00:05:23,894 --> 00:05:25,327 They didn't understand. 114 00:05:25,329 --> 00:05:27,329 They just knew that Dad was going cross country with them 115 00:05:27,331 --> 00:05:28,556 and that was fun. 116 00:05:33,755 --> 00:05:35,488 We landed in Crossville, Tennessee. 117 00:05:37,183 --> 00:05:39,284 It's... it's weird. You move into a small town 118 00:05:39,286 --> 00:05:41,945 where nobody knows you, and I thought, "This is strange." 119 00:05:41,947 --> 00:05:43,246 But that's what we did. 120 00:05:43,248 --> 00:05:46,475 It was a really weird, confusing, hard time. 121 00:05:46,477 --> 00:05:47,642 I just didn't want to be there. 122 00:05:47,644 --> 00:05:48,902 I wanted to be home, 123 00:05:48,904 --> 00:05:51,438 I wanted to be back with our family. I wanted to be home. 124 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,166 I'm sitting there saying, "Yeah, so, we're gonna take the boys, 125 00:05:54,168 --> 00:05:56,035 we're gonna pack up, we're gonna move to Tennessee, 126 00:05:56,037 --> 00:05:57,294 and everything's gonna be okay, 127 00:05:57,296 --> 00:06:00,957 and I'm going to jail, and... your husband's a crook." 128 00:06:00,959 --> 00:06:02,792 [Lisa] When he went to get indicted, 129 00:06:02,794 --> 00:06:05,219 he was sentenced to Lexington, Kentucky, 130 00:06:05,221 --> 00:06:08,056 and I realized he'd want us close enough to come visit. 131 00:06:08,950 --> 00:06:11,217 [news anchor] In March, Minkow agreed to plead guilty 132 00:06:11,219 --> 00:06:14,880 to a single count of conspiracy to commit securities fraud 133 00:06:14,882 --> 00:06:18,108 to avoid what could have been a 30-year federal prison sentence. 134 00:06:18,110 --> 00:06:21,337 Thursday, a federal judge sentenced him to five years 135 00:06:21,339 --> 00:06:25,332 and recommended drug rehabilitation for his OxyContin addiction. 136 00:06:25,334 --> 00:06:27,201 He must cooperate with authorities, 137 00:06:27,203 --> 00:06:29,862 still investigating his business dealings. 138 00:06:29,864 --> 00:06:31,230 He must also pay Lennar 139 00:06:31,232 --> 00:06:34,058 more than half a billion dollars in restitution, 140 00:06:34,060 --> 00:06:37,228 which his attorney concedes is not likely to happen. 141 00:06:37,230 --> 00:06:40,223 When I went to get sentenced for Lennar, I was a first-time offender 142 00:06:40,225 --> 00:06:43,051 because 16 years had passed since as the ZZZZ Best case, 143 00:06:43,053 --> 00:06:47,147 and under federal law, if you go 15 clean, you're clean. 144 00:06:47,149 --> 00:06:49,642 So, I was a first-time offender. 145 00:06:49,644 --> 00:06:51,944 Lisa knew I'd get five years, 146 00:06:51,946 --> 00:06:53,379 but I'd only have to do 30 months 147 00:06:53,381 --> 00:06:56,373 because I had the drug program and good time. 148 00:06:56,375 --> 00:06:58,034 I'm just getting off OxyContin 149 00:06:58,036 --> 00:07:00,002 because this was looming in on me. 150 00:07:00,004 --> 00:07:01,671 So I went from OxyContin to morphine 151 00:07:01,673 --> 00:07:03,231 and then I went from morphine to Vicodin, 152 00:07:03,233 --> 00:07:05,300 and then Vicodin to nothing, that's how I stopped. 153 00:07:08,897 --> 00:07:12,157 [Lisa] One day he turned himself in, and really was very distant. 154 00:07:12,159 --> 00:07:14,218 I mean, I'm sure it was very painful for him too, 155 00:07:14,220 --> 00:07:15,586 like, "Wow, here I go, you know, 156 00:07:15,588 --> 00:07:18,314 I'm leaving my family behind, who knows what's gonna happen?" 157 00:07:18,316 --> 00:07:19,448 And he just left. 158 00:07:21,385 --> 00:07:22,877 The boys were eight years old, 159 00:07:22,879 --> 00:07:25,513 seven or eight years old, they were young. 160 00:07:25,515 --> 00:07:27,540 I just wanted everything still to be okay, 161 00:07:27,542 --> 00:07:29,775 even though everything was not okay, 162 00:07:29,777 --> 00:07:31,402 I was trying to act like everything-- 163 00:07:31,404 --> 00:07:34,005 I was just the world's greatest kind of actor. 164 00:07:34,007 --> 00:07:35,799 And as long as they had their mom, 165 00:07:35,801 --> 00:07:37,233 as long as they were with me, 166 00:07:37,235 --> 00:07:39,528 they were gonna be okay, 'cause I was gonna take care of 'em. 167 00:07:39,530 --> 00:07:41,296 I was gonna... We were gonna be okay. 168 00:07:51,918 --> 00:07:53,751 Barry went back to prison for a second time. 169 00:07:53,753 --> 00:07:55,344 This was the Lennar stuff. 170 00:07:55,346 --> 00:07:57,346 And while he's in prison, 171 00:07:57,348 --> 00:07:59,674 apparently the FBI is investigating his church. 172 00:08:03,505 --> 00:08:06,506 When Barry's gone, he's unable to control. 173 00:08:06,508 --> 00:08:09,234 Him and Shannon, who was Barry's first secretary... 174 00:08:12,164 --> 00:08:14,131 [interviewer] Did Shannon work for Fraud Discovery Institute? 175 00:08:14,133 --> 00:08:15,465 She worked for both, 176 00:08:15,467 --> 00:08:18,961 which was wrong, I mean, she was double dipping. 177 00:08:18,963 --> 00:08:23,591 But Shannon went running after Barry when Barry was gone. 178 00:08:23,593 --> 00:08:24,550 She packed up and moved 179 00:08:24,552 --> 00:08:27,486 to move out closer to where he was. 180 00:08:27,488 --> 00:08:30,315 All of a sudden, information starts becoming available 181 00:08:30,317 --> 00:08:32,075 because he's not there to control it. 182 00:08:32,077 --> 00:08:35,145 Documentation in the mail that was previously being stolen, 183 00:08:35,147 --> 00:08:39,508 phone calls that are now being answered by one of us instead of by them. 184 00:08:40,469 --> 00:08:44,330 Why are we getting a credit card for $50,000? 185 00:08:44,332 --> 00:08:46,398 And here's another one for $40,000, 186 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:48,167 and this says Lloyd 187 00:08:48,169 --> 00:08:50,227 or this says so and so, or... 188 00:08:50,229 --> 00:08:52,922 What's this bank statement to the church? 189 00:08:52,924 --> 00:08:54,524 So, all of a sudden, 190 00:08:54,526 --> 00:08:57,251 all these things just began to be made known. 191 00:08:59,422 --> 00:09:02,215 The FBI came and said, "We want to talk about 192 00:09:02,217 --> 00:09:03,450 what you know about Barry 193 00:09:03,452 --> 00:09:05,377 and we wanna know about Shannon." 194 00:09:05,379 --> 00:09:07,212 They had all kinds of questions, 195 00:09:07,214 --> 00:09:10,173 and so they wanted access to all of our records. 196 00:09:12,111 --> 00:09:14,169 It just unraveled for him. 197 00:09:14,171 --> 00:09:16,305 They told me Barry had been taking money 198 00:09:16,307 --> 00:09:18,766 from the very beginning of when he got here. 199 00:09:23,464 --> 00:09:25,198 From the very day he came here, 200 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,025 he looked at it as a front 201 00:09:27,027 --> 00:09:29,386 where he could have very little supervision 202 00:09:29,388 --> 00:09:30,920 or any authority over him. 203 00:09:30,922 --> 00:09:35,016 And being the senior pastor as well as the CEO of the corporation, 204 00:09:35,018 --> 00:09:37,811 he could have free rein and do whatever he wanted. 205 00:09:37,813 --> 00:09:41,315 He used the congregation, the people, 206 00:09:41,317 --> 00:09:44,209 he developed relationships with people 207 00:09:44,211 --> 00:09:47,905 so that he can benefit himself in the long run. 208 00:09:47,907 --> 00:09:50,399 [interviewer] So, let me get this right, this is what Barry was doing, 209 00:09:50,401 --> 00:09:53,202 he was opening credit cards in people's names without knowing about it? 210 00:09:53,204 --> 00:09:54,963 That's correct. 211 00:09:54,965 --> 00:09:56,965 [interviewer] Right, he was borrowing money against the building illegally? 212 00:09:56,967 --> 00:09:58,224 [man] That is absolutely correct. 213 00:09:58,226 --> 00:09:59,859 [interviewer] He broke in and staged a robbery? 214 00:09:59,861 --> 00:10:01,093 [Scott] That's correct. 215 00:10:01,095 --> 00:10:03,321 [interviewer] He was taking advantage as a pastor 216 00:10:03,323 --> 00:10:05,757 and going round getting money out of grieving families? 217 00:10:05,759 --> 00:10:07,317 That's correct. 218 00:10:07,319 --> 00:10:09,953 [interviewer] He was using the church money, up to $3 million, 219 00:10:09,955 --> 00:10:12,214 to fund a movie about his life, about his redemption? 220 00:10:12,216 --> 00:10:13,982 Yeah. 221 00:10:13,984 --> 00:10:16,777 If you hired me, I can promise you one thing 222 00:10:16,779 --> 00:10:19,238 that no one will work harder for no other reason 223 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:20,373 than out of gratitude 224 00:10:20,375 --> 00:10:22,867 for being given the opportunity 225 00:10:22,869 --> 00:10:24,502 to pastor such a great church. 226 00:10:24,504 --> 00:10:27,764 I believe he started, like, taking money from a lady 227 00:10:27,766 --> 00:10:29,766 whose wealthy husband had died, 228 00:10:29,768 --> 00:10:30,859 and she worked at the church, 229 00:10:30,861 --> 00:10:32,093 and, like, he pleaded with her, like, 230 00:10:32,095 --> 00:10:35,289 "I have to finish this movie, we're too far in now. 231 00:10:35,291 --> 00:10:37,024 If it all falls apart, it's all for nothing, 232 00:10:37,026 --> 00:10:39,518 all these people's money are lost, 233 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,187 and we can't let that happen, God can't let that happen, 234 00:10:42,189 --> 00:10:43,514 you can't let that happen." 235 00:10:43,516 --> 00:10:46,484 [news anchor] In 2009, she says Minkow came to her house 236 00:10:46,486 --> 00:10:52,140 and asked for $150,000 loan to help finish a movie about his life. 237 00:10:52,142 --> 00:10:55,009 [Mary] Since he was known and it was the pastor, 238 00:10:55,011 --> 00:10:56,269 I felt I could trust him. 239 00:10:56,271 --> 00:10:58,405 Mary says she eventually gave Minkow 240 00:10:58,407 --> 00:11:03,034 almost $300,000, mostly from her home equity line of credit 241 00:11:03,036 --> 00:11:05,062 for various business ventures. 242 00:11:05,064 --> 00:11:08,957 He gave her promissory notes and checks that turned out to be worthless. 243 00:11:08,959 --> 00:11:10,426 Now she could lose her house. 244 00:11:10,428 --> 00:11:13,721 It's so important for you to prove to the world 245 00:11:13,723 --> 00:11:15,389 that you're a good person, 246 00:11:15,391 --> 00:11:19,318 that you do all these bad things that end up proving that you're a bad person. 247 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:21,612 He can't help himself. He just can't. 248 00:11:21,614 --> 00:11:24,908 That's typical of what Barry had done 249 00:11:24,910 --> 00:11:27,010 to many people in the church. 250 00:11:27,012 --> 00:11:30,172 I would have liked to have seen some remorse and restitution, 251 00:11:30,174 --> 00:11:33,567 uh, an apology to the people that he hurt. 252 00:11:35,571 --> 00:11:37,162 Have I missed anything? 253 00:11:37,164 --> 00:11:38,464 Um... 254 00:11:38,466 --> 00:11:40,458 There was a member of the church, 255 00:11:40,460 --> 00:11:43,360 his wife had died from cancer. 256 00:11:43,362 --> 00:11:46,022 There was a fairly large life insurance policy. 257 00:11:46,024 --> 00:11:49,083 And he goes, "I wanna do something that honors my wife. 258 00:11:49,085 --> 00:11:53,480 Something that remembers her life, something that helps people." 259 00:11:53,482 --> 00:11:56,783 And so Barry said, "I can help you with that." 260 00:11:56,785 --> 00:12:02,372 And so what he did was he took $150,000, I believe. 261 00:12:02,374 --> 00:12:05,067 He said that he was going to open a children's hospital 262 00:12:05,069 --> 00:12:06,535 over in Africa 263 00:12:06,537 --> 00:12:08,604 to help children with AIDS. 264 00:12:09,765 --> 00:12:11,165 He said, to this gentleman, 265 00:12:11,167 --> 00:12:13,526 "The hospital's built, here is a picture of it, 266 00:12:13,528 --> 00:12:16,095 this wing is named after your wife." 267 00:12:16,097 --> 00:12:18,122 Well, it turned out that all that was false 268 00:12:18,124 --> 00:12:20,091 and that he had stolen the money. 269 00:12:21,227 --> 00:12:23,353 He's a fraud detective. 270 00:12:23,355 --> 00:12:26,014 [Scott] The level of trust that's violated 271 00:12:26,016 --> 00:12:27,782 in a situation like that... 272 00:12:27,784 --> 00:12:29,610 not only affects them personally, 273 00:12:29,612 --> 00:12:33,080 but it affects them in a way where they don't want to trust anybody else ever again. 274 00:12:34,208 --> 00:12:36,742 He wrote a letter to the elders, 275 00:12:36,744 --> 00:12:42,064 and he said, and I'm quoting, "You knew what I was when you hired me." 276 00:12:42,066 --> 00:12:47,261 So, no remorse, no guilt, no anything. 277 00:12:48,164 --> 00:12:51,024 Still to this day, there's people that won't 278 00:12:51,026 --> 00:12:53,359 darken the door of a church because of his actions. 279 00:12:58,284 --> 00:12:59,349 Yeah. 280 00:13:03,147 --> 00:13:06,081 Looking back, it sounds crazy, 281 00:13:06,083 --> 00:13:09,310 but at the time, I really didn't think it was so bad. 282 00:13:37,361 --> 00:13:39,286 [Scott] When Barry left in 2011, 283 00:13:39,288 --> 00:13:41,855 the church had about $17 left in the bank, 284 00:13:41,857 --> 00:13:44,583 and it was hemorrhaging money. 285 00:13:44,585 --> 00:13:49,780 Of the 700 people there was maybe... pfft, I don't know, 286 00:13:49,782 --> 00:13:51,115 3 left. 287 00:13:52,043 --> 00:13:55,244 We made a pretty major remodel 288 00:13:55,246 --> 00:13:59,499 to address some of the... [sighs] 289 00:13:59,501 --> 00:14:00,700 ...the features of the buildings 290 00:14:00,702 --> 00:14:02,167 so it would give people a fresh start. 291 00:14:02,169 --> 00:14:06,665 Wouldn't have things that reminded them of the Barry days, so to speak. 292 00:14:08,060 --> 00:14:12,221 We wanted to remove anything that people had a strong association to 293 00:14:12,223 --> 00:14:15,124 that prevented them from having an enjoyable 294 00:14:15,126 --> 00:14:17,418 church experience with us on the weekend. 295 00:14:17,420 --> 00:14:19,286 And so, that included everything 296 00:14:19,288 --> 00:14:21,914 from repainting to the carpet, to the floors 297 00:14:21,916 --> 00:14:24,042 to the lighting. 298 00:14:24,044 --> 00:14:28,771 It makes you angry, it makes you feel ashamed 299 00:14:28,773 --> 00:14:34,002 that somebody would use God for their own selfish gain. 300 00:14:34,004 --> 00:14:38,031 Barry used what God intended for good, 301 00:14:38,033 --> 00:14:41,493 Barry used for his own personal evil. 302 00:14:41,495 --> 00:14:46,257 And that's the ultimate prostitution, I suppose. 303 00:14:50,321 --> 00:14:53,548 I have no excuses for that. None at all. 304 00:14:56,019 --> 00:15:00,446 'Cause it didn't happen overnight, it wasn't like I went from, you know, 305 00:15:00,448 --> 00:15:03,508 pastor preaching on Sundays to insider trading, 306 00:15:03,510 --> 00:15:05,002 tax fraud, embezzlement, 307 00:15:05,004 --> 00:15:07,104 fraud uncovering and drugs. 308 00:15:07,106 --> 00:15:13,035 That happened slowly, and it's before I knew it. 309 00:15:13,037 --> 00:15:14,161 I was the old Barry. 310 00:15:16,232 --> 00:15:17,990 It became a lifestyle. 311 00:15:17,992 --> 00:15:22,019 And always with the excuse that, "Well, I'm uncovering fraud, 312 00:15:22,021 --> 00:15:24,122 the church is growing, we're expanding. 313 00:15:24,124 --> 00:15:26,850 Nobody's getting hurt, it's all good. 314 00:15:26,852 --> 00:15:28,918 Come on, man! 315 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:32,147 This is worse than a return of ZZZZ Best Barry 316 00:15:32,149 --> 00:15:33,582 because I knew better. 317 00:15:33,584 --> 00:15:36,176 I knew it ended up nowhere. 318 00:15:36,178 --> 00:15:38,537 I knew I was gonna get found out eventually. 319 00:15:38,539 --> 00:15:40,339 I had been through all those games 320 00:15:40,341 --> 00:15:43,033 of I can do it, cover up, and lost. 321 00:15:43,936 --> 00:15:47,930 What kind of idiot does it again 322 00:15:47,932 --> 00:15:49,699 expecting a different result? 323 00:15:56,992 --> 00:15:58,350 So, it's 2012, 324 00:15:58,352 --> 00:16:01,486 I'm in prison because of the Lennar thing. 325 00:16:01,488 --> 00:16:04,348 And my prayer is that the church doesn't come after me. 326 00:16:04,350 --> 00:16:05,982 And my lawyers say, "Listen, 327 00:16:05,984 --> 00:16:09,912 they just busted you for a $500 million insider trading case, 328 00:16:09,914 --> 00:16:12,239 they don't care about $3 million at some church. 329 00:16:12,241 --> 00:16:15,368 Don't worry about it, you're fine." 330 00:16:15,370 --> 00:16:19,230 I was supposed to go home within months of when I got the church. 331 00:16:19,232 --> 00:16:20,631 Then I got five more years. 332 00:16:23,028 --> 00:16:25,061 [news anchor] At his sentencing, he declined to speak 333 00:16:25,063 --> 00:16:28,390 and kept his head down as victims read emotional statements 334 00:16:28,392 --> 00:16:30,692 about how their lives are forever changed. 335 00:16:36,217 --> 00:16:37,449 [Lisa] I have to be honest, 336 00:16:37,451 --> 00:16:39,476 I really had resentment for that church after a while 337 00:16:39,478 --> 00:16:41,212 because when this whole thing went down, 338 00:16:41,214 --> 00:16:44,373 we were going through such hardship and they didn't care. 339 00:16:45,677 --> 00:16:47,402 I'm sure the chatter was, 340 00:16:47,404 --> 00:16:51,305 "Oh, she had to have known, she had to have known." And I really didn't. 341 00:16:51,307 --> 00:16:53,366 There are hundreds of people here 342 00:16:53,368 --> 00:16:56,094 who have been really hurt by what Barry did. 343 00:16:56,096 --> 00:17:00,524 They see Lisa as a person who was living a much better lifestyle 344 00:17:00,526 --> 00:17:02,025 than any of them have 345 00:17:02,027 --> 00:17:03,886 at their expense. 346 00:17:03,888 --> 00:17:06,955 They don't see Lisa as apologizing 347 00:17:06,957 --> 00:17:10,050 for her role in anything, they don't see Lisa as 348 00:17:10,052 --> 00:17:15,181 one who is a victim, she's maybe playing a victim now. 349 00:17:15,183 --> 00:17:20,170 I was told by friends that they held a big meeting at the church 350 00:17:20,172 --> 00:17:23,406 and told everybody in the congregation to stay away from Barry 351 00:17:23,408 --> 00:17:25,033 and to stay away from Lisa and the kids. 352 00:17:25,035 --> 00:17:27,202 That's what I was told. They said, "Stay away from them." 353 00:17:27,204 --> 00:17:29,296 And I thought, "Wow, really?" 354 00:17:29,298 --> 00:17:32,165 Like, suddenly we're the... You know, we're evil. 355 00:17:32,167 --> 00:17:36,128 So, there's huge things the elder board didn't know about. 356 00:17:36,130 --> 00:17:39,356 There's huge things the accounting firm that did our books didn't know about. 357 00:17:39,358 --> 00:17:42,785 There's huge things that people responsible for doing due diligence 358 00:17:42,787 --> 00:17:45,079 on me and the church, didn't know about. 359 00:17:45,081 --> 00:17:49,309 Certainly, Lisa, who wasn't even there when any of it was happening, 360 00:17:49,311 --> 00:17:52,938 wouldn't know about it at all, of course not. 361 00:17:52,940 --> 00:17:57,034 [Scott] Clearly, she enjoyed the lifestyle of the money that he was taking. 362 00:17:57,036 --> 00:17:59,202 You've got to look at the life that you're living 363 00:17:59,204 --> 00:18:01,730 and the places that you're going and the cars that you're driving 364 00:18:01,732 --> 00:18:06,360 and know that that's not coming from a pastor's bank account. 365 00:18:06,362 --> 00:18:10,156 I just... I feel guilty because I feel like if I would have known something, 366 00:18:10,158 --> 00:18:11,524 I would have said something. 367 00:18:11,526 --> 00:18:13,418 The government has said she's a victim, 368 00:18:13,420 --> 00:18:15,286 she wasn't a part of the conspiracy, 369 00:18:15,288 --> 00:18:16,988 she's an innocent spouse. 370 00:18:16,990 --> 00:18:18,715 So let me just briefly say, 371 00:18:18,717 --> 00:18:21,417 she absolutely should have been... 372 00:18:21,419 --> 00:18:24,746 they should have come alongside and helped her, but they shunned her. 373 00:18:24,748 --> 00:18:28,308 We think it would be disrespectful to the people of the church 374 00:18:28,310 --> 00:18:30,335 to give away their last few dollars 375 00:18:30,337 --> 00:18:33,505 to the wife of the person who stole their money 376 00:18:33,507 --> 00:18:35,132 and may put their church out of business. 377 00:18:35,134 --> 00:18:37,635 She had two boys that were eight. 378 00:18:37,637 --> 00:18:39,929 She was the victim of me, just like they were. 379 00:18:39,931 --> 00:18:42,356 And then it just went downhill from there. 380 00:18:44,779 --> 00:18:46,946 I really don't want to get into this. 381 00:18:46,948 --> 00:18:50,274 This is a can of worms that I... I mean, do you wanna go into this? 382 00:18:56,107 --> 00:18:58,466 As it turns out, Barry was having an affair 383 00:18:58,468 --> 00:19:01,261 with the secretary. 384 00:19:01,263 --> 00:19:04,231 [Lisa] Now, he moved her out and her family out to Tennessee, too, 385 00:19:04,233 --> 00:19:06,024 lived in the same town. 386 00:19:06,026 --> 00:19:08,026 That's kind of twisted, I mean, if you would agree? 387 00:19:08,028 --> 00:19:09,053 It's a little twisted. 388 00:19:09,055 --> 00:19:10,654 But I don't know what his mindset was. 389 00:19:12,684 --> 00:19:14,984 -I'd rather not say her name, but it's... -[Interviewer] Okay. 390 00:19:14,986 --> 00:19:16,552 [interviewer] What was her name? 391 00:19:16,554 --> 00:19:18,913 -Do you remember? -Shannon. 392 00:19:18,915 --> 00:19:22,075 He was really good at manipulating women. 393 00:19:22,077 --> 00:19:26,171 I mean, he really knew how to take advantage of them emotionally. 394 00:19:28,241 --> 00:19:29,866 [Lisa] Her name was Shannon. 395 00:19:29,868 --> 00:19:31,201 She was his personal assistant 396 00:19:31,203 --> 00:19:33,195 at church and also with his businesses. 397 00:19:33,197 --> 00:19:35,330 [interviewer] And how long were they having an affair for? 398 00:19:35,332 --> 00:19:37,925 I don't know if I really wanna get into that 399 00:19:37,927 --> 00:19:40,995 because I don't wanna hurt families. 400 00:19:40,997 --> 00:19:42,254 Because I'm sure, after all this time, 401 00:19:42,256 --> 00:19:44,056 I don't even know what her husband knows, 402 00:19:44,058 --> 00:19:46,117 if he knows anything or if he just kind of, like, 403 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,053 buried his head and kept moving in his life, I don't know. 404 00:19:49,055 --> 00:19:51,915 He got a boob job for her because he didn't want to be seen 405 00:19:51,917 --> 00:19:53,742 with a girl without big boobs. 406 00:19:53,744 --> 00:19:56,911 And then he told her husband, "You're gonna like what happened." 407 00:19:56,913 --> 00:20:00,540 Not the... not the affair part, but the boob part. 408 00:20:00,542 --> 00:20:02,234 It's kind of weird, huh? 409 00:20:03,737 --> 00:20:06,397 [Barry] So, the... the... the issue is, 410 00:20:06,399 --> 00:20:09,166 when you're in the middle of doing something wrong, 411 00:20:09,168 --> 00:20:12,461 those consequences get cropped out. [chuckles] 412 00:20:12,463 --> 00:20:14,355 You know what I mean, you just see the fun. 413 00:20:16,292 --> 00:20:18,418 It's pleasure on credit, right? So... 414 00:20:18,420 --> 00:20:25,216 The affair was evil and horrible because there were several victims. 415 00:20:25,218 --> 00:20:28,912 Her husband, the woman, and her family and her husband, 416 00:20:28,914 --> 00:20:32,140 and then my family and my children. 417 00:20:32,142 --> 00:20:35,269 Their family moved with us to Tennessee, that's correct. 418 00:20:36,439 --> 00:20:38,372 It was just, like, "I wanna go with you," 419 00:20:38,374 --> 00:20:39,999 and they were tired of San Diego, 420 00:20:40,001 --> 00:20:41,901 and they were all up for moving, 421 00:20:41,903 --> 00:20:44,762 the husband was involved in approving that decision as well. 422 00:20:44,764 --> 00:20:46,890 I knew I was going to jail. 423 00:20:46,892 --> 00:20:48,558 So it wasn't like I was having her there 424 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:50,986 so that we could have this life together on the side. 425 00:20:50,988 --> 00:20:52,754 I was going to jail. 426 00:20:52,756 --> 00:20:56,383 This family liked my family and it would appear they were going to help them, 427 00:20:56,385 --> 00:20:58,518 so it was very pragmatic. 428 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,313 [interviewer] So, Shannon, she testified against Barry as well, right? 429 00:21:01,315 --> 00:21:04,975 She did. I think it was part of a... a... maybe it was a plea... 430 00:21:04,977 --> 00:21:07,770 plea argue... agreement or something. 431 00:21:07,772 --> 00:21:08,971 She did testify. 432 00:21:08,973 --> 00:21:11,173 I was the only one they wanted. 433 00:21:11,175 --> 00:21:13,301 No resentment about that at all. 434 00:21:13,303 --> 00:21:15,102 If I didn't want them to go to the grand jury, 435 00:21:15,104 --> 00:21:17,030 I shouldn't have done crime in the first place, right? 436 00:21:17,032 --> 00:21:18,231 So I'm not tripping. 437 00:21:19,301 --> 00:21:21,326 [Scott] I think she was very concerned, 438 00:21:21,328 --> 00:21:23,228 the last few times that I saw her 439 00:21:23,230 --> 00:21:24,387 of her culpability with Barry. 440 00:21:24,389 --> 00:21:26,389 I think she's remorseful over it. 441 00:21:26,391 --> 00:21:29,384 You know, in all honesty, I think Shannon realized that she was used, 442 00:21:29,386 --> 00:21:33,147 and I think in that, in that sense, she was used and was a victim, 443 00:21:33,149 --> 00:21:36,375 even though she was a perpetrator with a lot of these things. 444 00:21:41,374 --> 00:21:43,374 I think those were very tough years for Lisa, 445 00:21:43,376 --> 00:21:45,868 and I think that, um, 446 00:21:45,870 --> 00:21:48,104 she didn't have a clear understanding 447 00:21:48,106 --> 00:21:52,926 of why Barry would have an affair with this woman. 448 00:21:52,928 --> 00:21:56,430 Lisa's perception was, "Well, what's the matter with me?" 449 00:21:58,492 --> 00:22:00,985 It was embarrassing. I looked like a fool. 450 00:22:00,987 --> 00:22:02,486 I really did. I looked like a fool. 451 00:22:02,488 --> 00:22:04,254 I never thought that my husband, 452 00:22:04,256 --> 00:22:05,281 a pastor, a man of God, 453 00:22:05,283 --> 00:22:08,517 would do something like that to me. 454 00:22:08,519 --> 00:22:12,246 The way I saw it was, there's never enough attention for Barry. 455 00:22:12,248 --> 00:22:13,973 It had nothing to do with Lisa, 456 00:22:13,975 --> 00:22:17,002 and I think it's very difficult for Barry 457 00:22:17,004 --> 00:22:20,605 to acknowledge the pain that that caused. 458 00:22:20,607 --> 00:22:23,266 He's not at all emotionally intelligent. 459 00:22:24,570 --> 00:22:26,261 It's a weight on her still. 460 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,680 [Lisa] I was mad. "How dare you, God, let this happen to me?" 461 00:22:45,350 --> 00:22:46,708 You're not a bad person. 462 00:22:46,776 --> 00:22:49,870 You're a good person, you're a good wife, you're a great mother, 463 00:22:49,872 --> 00:22:51,304 you don't deserve this. 464 00:22:53,675 --> 00:22:55,234 Just, it's very... it's painful. 465 00:22:55,236 --> 00:22:57,002 It's really... It's just... 466 00:22:59,065 --> 00:23:01,498 Especially when you've given him, like, no reason. 467 00:23:01,500 --> 00:23:02,691 Like, why? 468 00:23:02,693 --> 00:23:03,926 There's no reason. 469 00:23:04,028 --> 00:23:07,121 Why would you do that to me on top of everything else? 470 00:23:07,123 --> 00:23:09,757 That was the nail in the coffin, you know. 471 00:23:13,188 --> 00:23:15,213 [Barry] Lisa takes the boys, we're not talking. 472 00:23:15,215 --> 00:23:18,775 She moved back to L.A. Every call is, "I hate you." 473 00:23:18,777 --> 00:23:21,711 March, I find out Lisa's gonna divorce me. 474 00:23:26,969 --> 00:23:29,069 [Lisa] When he finally admitted to the stuff that he was doing, 475 00:23:29,071 --> 00:23:30,763 I said, "You know what, I can't live like this. 476 00:23:30,765 --> 00:23:32,131 I can't be married to a man like that. 477 00:23:32,133 --> 00:23:35,092 I can't. I can't do this." So I divorced him. 478 00:23:39,591 --> 00:23:42,625 [Sheri] When he heard that Lisa was divorcing him, 479 00:23:42,627 --> 00:23:45,253 it was really very painful for him. 480 00:23:45,255 --> 00:23:47,055 Very painful for him. 481 00:23:50,052 --> 00:23:51,210 [Barry] When you're in prison 482 00:23:51,212 --> 00:23:52,778 and you're not talking to your kids, 483 00:23:52,780 --> 00:23:55,214 and you're done... and your wife files for divorce, 484 00:23:55,216 --> 00:23:57,508 as one great author once said, 485 00:23:57,510 --> 00:23:59,535 "It's like dying with your eyes open." 486 00:23:59,537 --> 00:24:01,103 You hear this, 487 00:24:01,105 --> 00:24:03,664 you can see it in your imagination, 488 00:24:03,666 --> 00:24:05,032 and you can do nothing about it. 489 00:24:05,869 --> 00:24:06,934 Brutal. 490 00:24:11,032 --> 00:24:13,258 I thought, "Oh, my gosh, I haven't worked in years," 491 00:24:13,260 --> 00:24:16,186 'cause I was home with the kids and everything, I'm a stay-at-home mom. 492 00:24:16,188 --> 00:24:17,621 "What am I going to do now? 493 00:24:17,623 --> 00:24:19,790 How am I even going to make enough money to take care of them? 494 00:24:19,792 --> 00:24:21,049 What am I gonna do?" 495 00:24:21,919 --> 00:24:23,385 [Barry] When I went to prison, 496 00:24:23,387 --> 00:24:26,046 I had financially prepared for her to survive, 497 00:24:26,048 --> 00:24:27,781 and it was only a help for a couple of years 498 00:24:27,783 --> 00:24:30,309 'cause I had a five year sentence, I would be out. 499 00:24:30,311 --> 00:24:33,371 Then San Diego came and I got another five years, so... 500 00:24:33,373 --> 00:24:36,766 You can survive two years, eight's a whole different story. 501 00:24:36,768 --> 00:24:38,268 So, yeah, the money runs out. 502 00:24:38,270 --> 00:24:41,996 And I'm just telling you, it was brutal, those times. 503 00:24:41,998 --> 00:24:45,125 [Lisa] I lost everything. I lost hope, I was angry all the time, 504 00:24:45,127 --> 00:24:48,195 I just... I was just a recluse, I didn't want to do anything. 505 00:24:48,197 --> 00:24:50,589 I drank just to kinda... Every time something would come up again, 506 00:24:50,591 --> 00:24:53,250 I didn't want to think about it. I mean, I just wanted it to go away. 507 00:24:53,252 --> 00:24:55,519 I wanted the pain to stop. 508 00:24:56,748 --> 00:24:58,147 [Sheri] Lisa was not doing well. 509 00:24:58,149 --> 00:25:01,075 It got to where she wasn't able to care for the twins. 510 00:25:01,077 --> 00:25:03,177 They were getting a little bit out of hand. 511 00:25:03,179 --> 00:25:05,438 I mean, they were neglected horribly by Barry 512 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,834 when he was there, but even when Lisa had them, they were horribly neglected. 513 00:25:09,836 --> 00:25:12,270 You know, they weren't doing well in school, 514 00:25:12,272 --> 00:25:15,132 I mean, they couldn't read, they couldn't do basic math. 515 00:25:15,134 --> 00:25:18,527 They were pretty much doing whatever they wanted to do after school, 516 00:25:18,529 --> 00:25:20,495 and they had friends over, and they would get in a fight 517 00:25:20,497 --> 00:25:23,123 and they'd throw stuff at each other. 518 00:25:23,125 --> 00:25:27,453 I was drinking, I mean, those big huge liter things. 519 00:25:27,455 --> 00:25:29,255 I don't know how much they are, necessarily, 520 00:25:29,257 --> 00:25:31,349 but they're big, and I would go through that and couple of days. 521 00:25:31,351 --> 00:25:32,650 That's a lot. 522 00:25:32,652 --> 00:25:34,577 So I went over one night, 523 00:25:34,579 --> 00:25:36,846 and, um... 524 00:25:36,848 --> 00:25:38,506 picked 'em up, brought 'em home, 525 00:25:38,508 --> 00:25:41,242 said, "You guys are now staying with us. You have a new life." 526 00:25:43,205 --> 00:25:44,938 [Lisa] When they went to live with Sheri, 527 00:25:44,940 --> 00:25:47,032 I didn't have anything left. 528 00:25:47,034 --> 00:25:48,367 I felt like everything... [voice quivers] 529 00:25:48,369 --> 00:25:49,501 I'm going to cry again. 530 00:25:49,503 --> 00:25:51,328 I felt like everything was gone. 531 00:25:51,330 --> 00:25:55,291 After a couple of years, we'd had them for a couple of years by then, 532 00:25:55,293 --> 00:25:58,352 we did an intervention on her where we all sat down 533 00:25:58,354 --> 00:26:01,289 with, you know, like, a therapist type person, 534 00:26:01,291 --> 00:26:03,783 and the kids read letters to her about her behavior 535 00:26:03,785 --> 00:26:05,451 and how it's affected their lives. 536 00:26:08,315 --> 00:26:10,181 [Lisa] It was so heartbreaking. 537 00:26:10,183 --> 00:26:12,142 And I thought, "They're so young to sit here 538 00:26:12,144 --> 00:26:14,377 and have to write this about their mom." 539 00:26:14,379 --> 00:26:16,505 They cried, they're, like, "Mom, I just want you to be okay, 540 00:26:16,507 --> 00:26:17,973 I want you to be better." 541 00:26:17,975 --> 00:26:19,566 You know, "You deserve better, Mom," 542 00:26:19,568 --> 00:26:22,569 When I sink to hearing that, it's, like, "Man, I let you guys down." 543 00:26:22,571 --> 00:26:24,296 So... It's shameful. 544 00:26:24,298 --> 00:26:26,065 The least I could have done is kept it together. 545 00:26:26,067 --> 00:26:27,325 I couldn't. 546 00:26:27,327 --> 00:26:29,527 I just wasn't strong enough, I thought I was. 547 00:26:29,529 --> 00:26:31,354 I wasn't. 548 00:26:31,356 --> 00:26:33,523 Sheri made sure I got the help I needed. 549 00:26:33,525 --> 00:26:35,350 She said, "Lisa, you've got to go to in-patient." 550 00:26:35,352 --> 00:26:37,352 I said, "I can't leave, I can't, I've got a job, I can't." 551 00:26:37,354 --> 00:26:40,147 And she said, "You gotta, you have to, you don't have a choice." 552 00:26:43,978 --> 00:26:47,404 She went in treatment the next day and stayed for six months. 553 00:26:47,406 --> 00:26:51,008 And she's been sober ever since then. 554 00:26:51,010 --> 00:26:53,202 She's a very remarkable story, Lisa, 555 00:26:53,204 --> 00:26:56,998 and I think she doesn't get a lot of credit 556 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,226 because she's behind Barry all the time, you know. 557 00:27:00,228 --> 00:27:02,495 But she's really a wonderful person. 558 00:27:02,497 --> 00:27:05,356 [Barry] She went through a period in her life 559 00:27:05,358 --> 00:27:10,253 and let me see you do any better if you were dealt the Barry Minkow card. 560 00:27:10,255 --> 00:27:11,688 It was very hard on Lisa. 561 00:27:11,690 --> 00:27:15,150 And I made it that way, so I certainly have compassion 562 00:27:15,152 --> 00:27:18,178 on the consequences of what occurred based on my decisions. 563 00:27:21,943 --> 00:27:24,235 One time, the boys and her came to visit. 564 00:27:25,171 --> 00:27:27,972 I hadn't seen my kids in two years. 565 00:27:27,974 --> 00:27:31,200 And Dylan, the last time I remember him, he was, like, eight or nine, 566 00:27:31,202 --> 00:27:33,294 now he's, like, 11 or 12. 567 00:27:35,265 --> 00:27:38,024 I mean, we are in a visiting room, it's crowded... 568 00:27:38,961 --> 00:27:41,219 He leans in... 569 00:27:41,221 --> 00:27:43,589 and I grabbed his hand, 570 00:27:43,591 --> 00:27:46,450 and he looked at me with those big eyes 571 00:27:46,452 --> 00:27:48,285 and said, "Dad... 572 00:27:50,548 --> 00:27:52,081 why did you do this?" 573 00:27:55,111 --> 00:27:58,538 I said to him that, um, "Son... 574 00:28:01,068 --> 00:28:04,402 there is no excuse nor answer for why I did what I did. 575 00:28:05,430 --> 00:28:09,358 I am so sorry for devastating your life. 576 00:28:09,360 --> 00:28:12,494 And it caused great pain to your brother and your mother, 577 00:28:12,496 --> 00:28:15,255 and I couldn't be more sorry and I'm going to make it up to you. 578 00:28:15,257 --> 00:28:17,550 We're going to be a family again. 579 00:28:17,552 --> 00:28:19,418 No matter what." 580 00:28:26,366 --> 00:28:28,533 [Barry] This is Lisa at our wedding, 581 00:28:28,535 --> 00:28:32,996 -and you see the low-cut boobs there. -God, I can't! 582 00:28:32,998 --> 00:28:35,023 -I just can't! -She looks beautiful as always. 583 00:28:35,025 --> 00:28:37,785 Lisa doesn't age, that's the problem, me, um, 584 00:28:37,787 --> 00:28:40,254 -as soon as my face cleared up my hair fell out... -[Lisa laughs] 585 00:28:40,256 --> 00:28:43,182 But Lisa, Lisa, she is beautiful, 586 00:28:43,184 --> 00:28:46,043 -and gets prettier every year, don't you, babe? -Oh, yeah. 587 00:28:46,045 --> 00:28:47,778 [interviewer] How did you manage to convince Lisa 588 00:28:47,780 --> 00:28:50,406 to take you back, like, you put her through all this? 589 00:28:50,408 --> 00:28:53,868 Oh, I defrauded her, what else would I do? She wouldn't get a... 590 00:28:53,870 --> 00:28:57,038 No, of course, I'm kidding, don't print that. 591 00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:58,932 This is something that people said would never happen. 592 00:28:58,934 --> 00:29:02,427 -Yeah, yeah. -That God brought us back together. 593 00:29:02,429 --> 00:29:05,364 There's hope that despite prison, despite divorce, 594 00:29:05,366 --> 00:29:08,725 -despite my evil lifestyle... -Mmm-hmm. 595 00:29:08,727 --> 00:29:11,854 ...God brought us back together, this is kinda a miracle moment for us. 596 00:29:11,856 --> 00:29:14,282 -Yeah, for sure. -That we were able to get back together. 597 00:29:14,284 --> 00:29:16,083 Nobody... Listen, I had people come visit me and say, 598 00:29:16,085 --> 00:29:18,378 -"You and Lisa are never getting back together again." -Yeah. Yeah. 599 00:29:18,380 --> 00:29:20,546 -Remember that? -Yes, well, I... 600 00:29:20,548 --> 00:29:21,981 I didn't think that either. 601 00:29:21,983 --> 00:29:24,175 And then, um, yeah, that's great, so... 602 00:29:24,177 --> 00:29:26,478 [Barry] So, when I got out, December of '18, 603 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,406 and knowing that I was going back into this marriage and this relationship, 604 00:29:29,408 --> 00:29:31,800 I knew one thing to restore trust, 605 00:29:31,802 --> 00:29:35,195 never have to... have her ask a question about where I was. 606 00:29:35,197 --> 00:29:37,831 I don't go out with friends at night, I don't go to movies, 607 00:29:37,833 --> 00:29:40,025 I don't go to bars, I don't go to clubs. I don't do any of that. 608 00:29:40,027 --> 00:29:43,087 I'm in bed by 7:00, 7.30, get up with the boys, work out. 609 00:29:43,089 --> 00:29:44,388 Uh, very predictable, my schedule. 610 00:29:44,390 --> 00:29:45,923 And that brings trust. 611 00:29:45,925 --> 00:29:48,751 She always knows, everybody knows where I'm at. All the time. 612 00:29:48,753 --> 00:29:51,146 There's never a hole in my schedule. 613 00:29:51,148 --> 00:29:54,015 There's never anything going on that she's not aware of. 614 00:29:54,017 --> 00:29:56,443 That has slowly rebuilt trust. 615 00:29:56,445 --> 00:29:57,978 And there's still more to rebuild. 616 00:29:57,980 --> 00:30:00,405 He was much more softer around the edges, 617 00:30:00,407 --> 00:30:04,001 he was much easier to talk to and he seemed like he was the guy that I... 618 00:30:04,003 --> 00:30:06,270 that he's supposed to be. This is the Barry that I loved, 619 00:30:06,272 --> 00:30:08,330 this is the man that I married. 620 00:30:09,267 --> 00:30:14,028 Jail gave him redemption and healing and restoration, 621 00:30:14,030 --> 00:30:18,991 and it gave me restoration, healing, forgiveness and our family. 622 00:30:18,993 --> 00:30:22,220 And then we were remarried in November of 2019, 623 00:30:22,222 --> 00:30:23,521 and we're a family again. 624 00:30:23,523 --> 00:30:25,415 Which is a miracle! 625 00:30:32,975 --> 00:30:33,974 Let's go, baby. 626 00:30:33,976 --> 00:30:35,242 Let's do this. 627 00:30:35,244 --> 00:30:38,204 Come on, don't look at the camera, you just keep walking. 628 00:30:38,206 --> 00:30:40,331 [Robert] I haven't been in a long time. 629 00:30:40,333 --> 00:30:42,466 Excited, though, it's nice to be back. 630 00:30:42,468 --> 00:30:44,068 Look who I've brought today. 631 00:30:44,070 --> 00:30:46,028 -What's up, man? -What's up, brother? How are you doing, man? 632 00:30:46,030 --> 00:30:47,430 -Good to see you again. -Good to see you. 633 00:30:47,432 --> 00:30:49,424 Where's my sound? Have we got a boom? 634 00:30:49,426 --> 00:30:51,326 We're gonna do the... 635 00:30:51,328 --> 00:30:53,620 [man] Yeah, we got it. You ready? 636 00:30:55,290 --> 00:30:57,149 [Barry] Number one goal when I got out of prison... 637 00:30:58,252 --> 00:31:00,318 was restore the family. 638 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:01,945 I had a window of opportunity while I was out 639 00:31:01,947 --> 00:31:05,341 and she was in rehab, to care for the boys, to parent the boys, 640 00:31:05,343 --> 00:31:08,510 I had a limited amount of time and I had one opportunity to make that happen. 641 00:31:08,512 --> 00:31:09,570 Nice try, Dad. 642 00:31:09,572 --> 00:31:11,572 [Barry] I left my kids when they were eight, 643 00:31:12,675 --> 00:31:15,234 and I came back when they were in ninth grade. 644 00:31:15,236 --> 00:31:19,964 So it's been hard to parent out of guilt. 645 00:31:19,966 --> 00:31:22,292 That'll keep you running the right way. 646 00:31:22,294 --> 00:31:24,361 Don't let Dylan have a better stomach than you. 647 00:31:24,363 --> 00:31:25,787 I'll try not to. 648 00:31:25,789 --> 00:31:27,389 Good, I've got you, son. Are you ready? 649 00:31:27,391 --> 00:31:29,324 Stop and down, just like you used to. 650 00:31:29,326 --> 00:31:32,486 There you go, big dog, breathe, there you go, son. 651 00:31:32,488 --> 00:31:34,146 Attaboy. 652 00:31:34,148 --> 00:31:35,581 Stronger than you thought, aren't you? 653 00:31:38,411 --> 00:31:41,646 He likes it a lot, and I like it, you know, he trains me all the time. 654 00:31:41,648 --> 00:31:43,272 He motivates me and my brother, you know, 655 00:31:43,274 --> 00:31:45,775 he is such a hard worker and I just, like, admire that about him, you know. 656 00:31:45,777 --> 00:31:48,036 [Barry] Yeah, I want them to work hard. I hate lazy, so... 657 00:31:48,038 --> 00:31:49,504 -[Robert] Yeah. -And he ain't lazy. 658 00:31:49,506 --> 00:31:51,665 He's got his own clothing line. 659 00:31:51,667 --> 00:31:54,159 It's not ZZZZ Best clothing line, but we're working on that. 660 00:31:54,161 --> 00:31:57,763 -It's, yeah... -We're gonna change the name, we're gonna take it public. 661 00:31:57,765 --> 00:31:59,756 -Yeah. -He doesn't even know what public means. 662 00:31:59,758 --> 00:32:02,218 -I'll have him in jail before he knows it. -[Robert laughs nervously] 663 00:32:02,220 --> 00:32:03,586 And when he doesn't show up for work, 664 00:32:03,588 --> 00:32:05,054 I say, "Son, I was committing felonies 665 00:32:05,056 --> 00:32:07,014 when I was your age, what's wrong with you? 666 00:32:07,016 --> 00:32:10,410 You're 18, I had, like, three felonies already when I was 18, 667 00:32:10,412 --> 00:32:13,346 what's wrong with you? You and your brother?" 668 00:32:13,348 --> 00:32:15,173 [Sheri] He is now a parent, 669 00:32:15,175 --> 00:32:17,909 and when you're a parent, you don't get to be selfish. 670 00:32:17,911 --> 00:32:20,370 And he's never really been a parent to these kids. 671 00:32:20,372 --> 00:32:22,339 I have to laugh, because he talks, like, 672 00:32:22,341 --> 00:32:24,299 you know, like, he'll call me up and he's, like, 673 00:32:24,301 --> 00:32:27,694 "These kids are killing me." I'm just, like, "Welcome to parenthood." 674 00:32:33,294 --> 00:32:35,486 [Lisa] We're all still a work in progress. 675 00:32:35,488 --> 00:32:38,622 You come to a point where you really grow 676 00:32:38,624 --> 00:32:40,850 and you learn how to deal with things differently. 677 00:32:40,852 --> 00:32:43,645 Our relationship is much better than it was in our first marriage. 678 00:32:43,647 --> 00:32:45,747 Yeah, yeah, it's actually better, 679 00:32:45,749 --> 00:32:47,015 we're better than we were 680 00:32:47,017 --> 00:32:48,541 when we first met and got married. 681 00:32:48,543 --> 00:32:51,970 She overcame, courageously, everything. 682 00:32:51,972 --> 00:32:55,140 She hasn't had a drink in years and doing great, 683 00:32:55,142 --> 00:32:57,034 -and we call her the glue. -[chuckles softly] 684 00:32:57,036 --> 00:32:58,769 -The rudder. -She's the glue. 685 00:32:58,771 --> 00:33:00,663 No, you made up rudder, I didn't say rudder. 686 00:33:00,665 --> 00:33:03,724 My friend told me that, she told me, she says, "You're like the rudder." 687 00:33:03,726 --> 00:33:07,428 -That's not a good analogy. -Meaning steering the ship, it's like the anchor. 688 00:33:07,430 --> 00:33:09,388 -The glue, you hold us all together. -Okay, same thing. 689 00:33:09,390 --> 00:33:11,624 What's not coming across is do you love your husband, or not? 690 00:33:11,626 --> 00:33:13,952 I do love my husband, or I wouldn't have married you again. 691 00:33:13,954 --> 00:33:15,253 Well, you're not really, like-- 692 00:33:15,255 --> 00:33:16,379 -Well-- -I'm not feeling it, hon, 693 00:33:16,381 --> 00:33:17,447 I'm not feeling it. 694 00:33:17,449 --> 00:33:20,876 He's so needy. Also. So needy. 695 00:33:20,878 --> 00:33:23,078 I'm not feeling it, I'm hearing a lot of bitterness. 696 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,005 No, there's no bitterness, there really isn't, 697 00:33:25,007 --> 00:33:27,441 there's no bitterness anymore. No. 698 00:33:27,443 --> 00:33:29,868 [Barry] She is the unsung hero, in my opinion, 699 00:33:29,870 --> 00:33:31,437 in this story. 700 00:33:31,439 --> 00:33:35,399 By hook and by crook, she held everything together, by God's grace, and... 701 00:33:35,401 --> 00:33:37,860 [interviewer] I'm also beginning to feel like she could be... 702 00:33:37,862 --> 00:33:40,163 have been the biggest victim in all these... 703 00:33:40,165 --> 00:33:41,522 There's no question in my mind. 704 00:33:41,524 --> 00:33:43,925 -How's your life with your husband right now? -[Lisa] It's good. 705 00:33:43,927 --> 00:33:47,954 -Is there anybody for you out there other than-- -No. 706 00:33:47,956 --> 00:33:49,347 You're probably not gonna want to put this on, 707 00:33:49,349 --> 00:33:51,850 but that's why I was saying early on, 708 00:33:51,852 --> 00:33:54,478 are you gonna be interviewing Lisa without Barry? 709 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,140 Because Lisa with Barry, is Barry controlling what she says. 710 00:34:01,170 --> 00:34:02,670 -You did good. -Thank you, hon. 711 00:34:02,672 --> 00:34:04,372 It's good. Tell your story, it's great. 712 00:34:11,477 --> 00:34:12,543 [Barry] Guys... 713 00:34:12,545 --> 00:34:13,644 [claps] 714 00:34:13,646 --> 00:34:15,045 ...can we go? 715 00:34:16,007 --> 00:34:17,707 Hi, guys. 716 00:34:17,709 --> 00:34:19,375 How are you doing? All right, all right. 717 00:34:19,377 --> 00:34:21,536 -Good morning. Good morning. Hi, sweetheart. -[woman] Good morning. 718 00:34:21,538 --> 00:34:24,631 Good morning, guys. Morning, morning. 719 00:34:24,633 --> 00:34:26,599 I see you hiding over there. 720 00:34:26,601 --> 00:34:27,926 My girl. 721 00:34:27,928 --> 00:34:29,060 Morning, guys. 722 00:34:29,062 --> 00:34:31,196 So, this is our main shelter in here. 723 00:34:31,198 --> 00:34:33,757 We house about 50 to 80 in here. 724 00:34:33,759 --> 00:34:34,991 Great people. 725 00:34:36,220 --> 00:34:37,286 We got showers, 726 00:34:37,288 --> 00:34:38,921 meals, comfortable place to live, 727 00:34:38,923 --> 00:34:40,014 but this is our lowest entry, 728 00:34:40,016 --> 00:34:42,216 so if we have somebody on the street, 729 00:34:42,218 --> 00:34:45,277 we could pull them right here immediately and get them help. 730 00:34:47,515 --> 00:34:48,906 When I got out of prison, 731 00:34:48,908 --> 00:34:50,808 the more free time... 732 00:34:50,810 --> 00:34:54,771 the more my mind wanders to do things that perhaps I ought not to do... 733 00:34:54,773 --> 00:34:59,200 whether that would be in my private life or in overt crime. 734 00:34:59,202 --> 00:35:02,896 In prison, I trained others exercise, 735 00:35:02,898 --> 00:35:05,491 helped them in their diet, mentored them spiritually. 736 00:35:05,493 --> 00:35:08,160 The key to me was others. If I could just think about others, 737 00:35:08,162 --> 00:35:11,655 then I can do well because I'm not thinking about me. 738 00:35:12,984 --> 00:35:18,079 I can't believe that Barry is helping the homeless now. You see! 739 00:35:18,081 --> 00:35:23,109 He's found a group that the media will target 740 00:35:23,111 --> 00:35:25,070 and they will interview Barry. 741 00:35:25,072 --> 00:35:28,540 This is just the step of redeeming himself 742 00:35:28,542 --> 00:35:30,434 and becoming an idol 743 00:35:30,436 --> 00:35:33,862 to somebody in the media once again. 744 00:35:33,864 --> 00:35:36,465 When I come into a place like this, I'm looking at everybody and thinking, 745 00:35:36,467 --> 00:35:39,293 "I've done ten times more evil than anybody in here, 746 00:35:39,295 --> 00:35:43,456 and I have a place to live and they don't, so, to balance the scales, 747 00:35:43,458 --> 00:35:45,783 I think there's a lot I could do to help people that are here. 748 00:35:49,548 --> 00:35:52,148 Man, you can use the back seat, man. 749 00:35:52,150 --> 00:35:54,275 Come on, man, load up. 750 00:35:54,277 --> 00:35:55,610 We gotta load up. 751 00:35:55,612 --> 00:35:58,138 Thank you for being here. Love you, too, man. 752 00:35:58,140 --> 00:35:59,506 Appreciate you, love you. 753 00:35:59,508 --> 00:36:00,974 Call me later. 754 00:36:00,976 --> 00:36:03,602 Or tomorrow after church, call me after church. 755 00:36:03,604 --> 00:36:04,770 [dog barking] 756 00:36:11,596 --> 00:36:12,995 [car horn honks] 757 00:36:14,124 --> 00:36:16,457 [Barry] So, these are bigger waters. 758 00:36:16,459 --> 00:36:19,052 -Yeah. -Those are alkaline ones, those are better. 759 00:36:19,054 --> 00:36:20,687 -Way better. -They're better for you. 760 00:36:20,689 --> 00:36:23,114 [laughs] 761 00:36:23,116 --> 00:36:26,410 -Now, remember, I've got another encampment to feed. -[woman] Bueno. 762 00:36:26,412 --> 00:36:29,279 Okay, so we're straightening him out with his broken leg, right? 763 00:36:29,281 --> 00:36:30,873 -You gonna get help? -[woman] Yeah. 764 00:36:30,875 --> 00:36:32,774 You gonna call me if you need anything? 765 00:36:32,776 --> 00:36:35,002 [Scott] I don't think he cares for the homeless people, 766 00:36:35,004 --> 00:36:37,438 but I think he sees it as an opportunity. 767 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,965 Some well-meaning person 768 00:36:39,967 --> 00:36:43,394 with resources will see it on the news and go, "Oh, I'd like to help out." 769 00:36:43,396 --> 00:36:45,496 And that's how it starts. 770 00:36:45,498 --> 00:36:48,258 Hey, guys, Hope Of The Valley. water and food, here you go. 771 00:36:49,194 --> 00:36:50,986 Good to see you guys. 772 00:36:50,988 --> 00:36:52,454 You guys all right? 773 00:36:52,456 --> 00:36:53,922 Love you guys. 774 00:36:53,924 --> 00:36:56,316 Hey, my man. I got water and food for you, okay? 775 00:36:56,318 --> 00:36:58,051 All right. All right. Good to see you, man. 776 00:36:58,053 --> 00:36:59,378 Hey, do you need a new cane? 777 00:36:59,380 --> 00:37:00,479 [man] Yeah. 778 00:37:00,481 --> 00:37:02,481 [Barry] Can you show me the cane? 779 00:37:02,483 --> 00:37:03,741 [Barry] And then you need a new one 780 00:37:03,743 --> 00:37:04,908 and I'll get you one. 781 00:37:04,910 --> 00:37:08,137 It'll end up the same as every other thing he's done. 782 00:37:08,139 --> 00:37:11,374 Manipulation of lives for the sake of financial gain. 783 00:37:16,331 --> 00:37:18,398 [pastor] I'm privileged to introduce 784 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,025 this morning's speaker. 785 00:37:20,027 --> 00:37:23,754 And I'm excited of what God's going to continue to do in his life. 786 00:37:23,756 --> 00:37:26,823 I see him every single Sunday morning 787 00:37:26,825 --> 00:37:30,352 with his boys right next to him, him and his wife 788 00:37:30,354 --> 00:37:35,215 and I want you to give a great big welcome, amen, 789 00:37:35,217 --> 00:37:39,445 -to Brother Barry Minkow. -[applause] 790 00:37:39,447 --> 00:37:41,639 [cheering] 791 00:37:42,909 --> 00:37:47,303 So, I'm in prison, it's FCI Englewood. 792 00:37:47,305 --> 00:37:49,030 One day there was this football game 793 00:37:49,032 --> 00:37:50,765 I was quarterback, I know it's hard to believe, 794 00:37:50,767 --> 00:37:52,300 but they used to call me Barry Bradshaw. 795 00:37:52,302 --> 00:37:53,393 I'm just kidding. 796 00:37:54,229 --> 00:37:55,362 At the end of the first half, 797 00:37:55,364 --> 00:37:57,956 there was this guy called Shotgun. That was his name. 798 00:37:57,958 --> 00:38:02,052 I can't believe that he's preaching again. Unbelievable! 799 00:38:02,054 --> 00:38:04,054 Unbelievable. 800 00:38:04,056 --> 00:38:06,382 But I believe it, at the same time. 801 00:38:08,119 --> 00:38:09,376 [Scott] The Bible makes it very clear 802 00:38:09,378 --> 00:38:12,213 that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 803 00:38:12,215 --> 00:38:15,108 And while people would say that Barry is a good theologian, 804 00:38:15,110 --> 00:38:18,503 I would say that Satan's a good theologian, but he's the devil still. 805 00:38:18,505 --> 00:38:22,199 You know them by their action and you know them by what drives them, 806 00:38:22,201 --> 00:38:24,301 and Barry is not driven by love for people, 807 00:38:24,303 --> 00:38:28,063 Barry is driven by a desire for fame and a desire for money. 808 00:38:28,065 --> 00:38:29,556 [Barry] Peanut came over and he goes, 809 00:38:29,558 --> 00:38:31,925 "Let me tell you something, Barry, at ZZZZ Best, you quit. 810 00:38:31,927 --> 00:38:34,120 You took shortcuts, your whole life 811 00:38:34,122 --> 00:38:36,789 is one, big, repetitive quitting. 812 00:38:38,151 --> 00:38:41,118 And you have to have a time in your life, a point, 813 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:42,378 where it stops." 814 00:38:44,115 --> 00:38:45,974 And I learned a valuable lesson... 815 00:38:45,976 --> 00:38:48,243 not to quit when things get tough. 816 00:38:51,073 --> 00:38:53,006 [Barry] The biggest victim out of everything I've done, 817 00:38:53,008 --> 00:38:54,933 let's be very clear about this, 818 00:38:54,935 --> 00:38:58,562 if I may... Number one, it would be Lisa and the boys, right? 819 00:38:58,564 --> 00:39:02,124 But, you know, a close second is the church. 820 00:39:02,126 --> 00:39:04,326 The church elder board, the church leadership, 821 00:39:04,328 --> 00:39:06,420 the church that was there for me. 822 00:39:06,422 --> 00:39:07,989 And then you have 823 00:39:07,991 --> 00:39:11,451 my sisters on that rung as well, both of them. 824 00:39:11,453 --> 00:39:14,346 Being Barry Minkow brother wasn't easy, 825 00:39:14,348 --> 00:39:17,582 but my sisters have showed unconditional love 826 00:39:17,584 --> 00:39:20,243 through every dark moment in my life, 827 00:39:20,245 --> 00:39:22,538 and I couldn't be more grateful for them. 828 00:39:22,540 --> 00:39:26,174 It's been a long road of hurt with Barry, 829 00:39:26,176 --> 00:39:30,304 but the way that I was raised, you stick by your family, your family's your family. 830 00:39:30,306 --> 00:39:32,865 You know, it doesn't mean that you have to agree with everything they do, 831 00:39:32,867 --> 00:39:33,999 but you're there for them 832 00:39:34,001 --> 00:39:37,195 and you don't turn against them, no matter what. 833 00:39:37,197 --> 00:39:39,322 [Barry] Jeri Carr, wonderful lady, 834 00:39:39,324 --> 00:39:41,057 did a great job, totally innocent. 835 00:39:41,059 --> 00:39:44,252 Never knew anything was wrong with ZZZZ Best or me. 836 00:39:44,254 --> 00:39:50,016 [Jeri] I had to totally leave a profession that I loved 837 00:39:50,018 --> 00:39:54,079 because I was so blatantly blamed for, 838 00:39:54,081 --> 00:39:57,941 quote-unquote, "Lying about the truth about Barry." 839 00:39:57,943 --> 00:40:01,303 For me, it wasn't monetary. 840 00:40:01,305 --> 00:40:03,531 He stripped me of a whole life. 841 00:40:03,533 --> 00:40:07,201 That it actually destroyed a part of who I am. 842 00:40:07,203 --> 00:40:09,162 [interviewer] The Swansons? 843 00:40:09,164 --> 00:40:12,023 Clearly, they had a bad experience and... 844 00:40:12,025 --> 00:40:13,758 somebody hit them while they were at ZZZZ Best. 845 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:15,560 That's not good. I mean, it happened 30 years ago, 846 00:40:15,562 --> 00:40:17,120 hopefully, they've gotten over it by now. 847 00:40:17,122 --> 00:40:19,055 But I sure would like to apologize to them. 848 00:40:19,057 --> 00:40:20,682 Can I write them a note or something? 849 00:40:22,887 --> 00:40:25,145 She's got a folder on you like this... 850 00:40:25,147 --> 00:40:27,781 Snaking it in America, there you go. 851 00:40:27,783 --> 00:40:29,542 Yeah, most do, most do. 852 00:40:29,544 --> 00:40:31,544 But, I mean, it was a credit card deal, 853 00:40:31,546 --> 00:40:33,738 she wasn't a ZZZZ Best stockholder or anything. 854 00:40:33,740 --> 00:40:36,266 She lost... You know, she got her money back. 855 00:40:36,268 --> 00:40:38,501 [interviewer] What about Mark Morze? Is Mark Morze a victim? 856 00:40:39,404 --> 00:40:40,995 Mark did not tell you he was a victim? 857 00:40:40,997 --> 00:40:43,965 [interviewer] Yes, he did tell me he was a victim. 858 00:40:43,967 --> 00:40:46,159 [Mark] The short answer is, yeah, I wish I'd never met him. 859 00:40:47,196 --> 00:40:50,188 Something biographically, I grew up extremely poor. 860 00:40:50,190 --> 00:40:53,017 My dad died before I remember him 861 00:40:53,019 --> 00:40:56,553 and my life was memories of growing up in Detroit, Michigan, 862 00:40:56,555 --> 00:41:00,182 with no heat, no electricity, no telephone, no television, no car. 863 00:41:00,184 --> 00:41:02,877 We were poor. Real poor. 864 00:41:02,879 --> 00:41:04,938 And so when millions of dollars 865 00:41:04,940 --> 00:41:07,106 were dangled in front of my face, 866 00:41:07,108 --> 00:41:13,004 I got introduced to a world because of the money I was making from Barry. 867 00:41:13,006 --> 00:41:15,165 I was being treated like a king. 868 00:41:15,167 --> 00:41:18,126 It was an exciting time, it was thrilling, 869 00:41:18,128 --> 00:41:22,456 but the minute things got bad, Barry just looked out for number one. 870 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,054 [Jonathan] I don't think he gets a shot 871 00:41:29,056 --> 00:41:33,184 at committing another illegal con on a grand scale. 872 00:41:33,186 --> 00:41:37,080 And the reason is because of this. 873 00:41:42,237 --> 00:41:49,101 It is impossible for the facts of this story to not prove his guilt. 874 00:41:49,103 --> 00:41:55,891 And showing people that this man isn't contrite, he's fake, he's a conman. 875 00:41:55,893 --> 00:41:57,492 He always will be. 876 00:41:57,494 --> 00:42:01,522 What I think is different now, is that Barry's willing to be accountable. 877 00:42:01,524 --> 00:42:05,051 Before, he was not accountable to anybody, thank you, "And I'm not going to be." 878 00:42:05,053 --> 00:42:07,746 You know, he was still the end all, be all. 879 00:42:07,748 --> 00:42:10,181 And this time when he's gotten out, 880 00:42:10,183 --> 00:42:13,176 I don't see him scrambling around 881 00:42:13,178 --> 00:42:16,405 trying to find opportunities where he's the center of attention. 882 00:42:16,407 --> 00:42:19,900 Isn't this amazing, how many people have been 883 00:42:19,902 --> 00:42:22,762 touched by one person 884 00:42:22,764 --> 00:42:26,699 because there is something inside of Barry 885 00:42:26,701 --> 00:42:31,421 that pulls something inside of each and every one of us, 886 00:42:31,423 --> 00:42:34,791 that wants to believe the good. 887 00:42:34,793 --> 00:42:37,886 We all wanna believe the happy endings. 888 00:42:37,888 --> 00:42:42,048 I've met some really bad people over my life. 889 00:42:42,050 --> 00:42:45,010 Barry has got to be close to the top. 890 00:42:45,012 --> 00:42:48,272 I don't believe for one second that Barry has changed. 891 00:42:48,274 --> 00:42:50,240 [interviewer] Barry also told us that he's in the process 892 00:42:50,242 --> 00:42:52,101 of paying everyone back. 893 00:42:52,103 --> 00:42:54,336 Well, the church has never received a penny from Barry. 894 00:42:54,338 --> 00:42:57,265 There's no possible way he can pay anybody back. 895 00:42:57,267 --> 00:43:00,093 He doesn't have enough lifetimes to do that. 896 00:43:02,230 --> 00:43:03,463 [Barry] You know what, 897 00:43:03,465 --> 00:43:07,525 I think there's something wrong with me. 898 00:43:07,527 --> 00:43:09,986 So people like me have to be keenly aware 899 00:43:09,988 --> 00:43:12,080 that we have the propensity 900 00:43:12,082 --> 00:43:14,182 to press the self-destruct button. 901 00:43:14,184 --> 00:43:17,411 And, for me, success, I could have never handled. 902 00:43:17,413 --> 00:43:19,446 Even if I just made it past, 903 00:43:19,448 --> 00:43:21,107 I would have figured out another way to fail, 904 00:43:21,109 --> 00:43:22,441 lie, cheat, steal. 905 00:43:22,443 --> 00:43:23,576 Does that make sense? 906 00:43:23,578 --> 00:43:26,037 The yin and yang of Barry Minkow. 907 00:43:26,039 --> 00:43:27,471 Then again, it's a story. 908 00:43:27,473 --> 00:43:30,133 It's a story that I can't wait to see the ending of. 909 00:43:30,135 --> 00:43:31,401 So I have to live longer.