1 00:00:22,773 --> 00:00:25,776 [ Dramatic music plays] 2 00:01:11,113 --> 00:01:14,533 [ Electricity buzzes] 3 00:02:10,589 --> 00:02:14,509 Ladies and gentlemen. 4 00:02:19,431 --> 00:02:22,184 "Lynch. 5 00:02:22,184 --> 00:02:23,894 Oz." 6 00:03:14,986 --> 00:03:18,073 [ Down-tempo music plays ] 7 00:03:27,165 --> 00:03:28,542 NICHOLSON: When you look at the grand scope 8 00:03:28,542 --> 00:03:33,839 of American storytelling... 9 00:03:33,839 --> 00:03:35,966 in this strange, 10 00:03:35,966 --> 00:03:39,136 mixed-up, argumentative, polarised country... 11 00:03:50,188 --> 00:03:52,607 ...finding a story we can all agree on 12 00:03:52,607 --> 00:03:54,693 is next to impossible. 13 00:03:56,737 --> 00:03:59,072 There's these two very similar films 14 00:03:59,072 --> 00:04:00,907 that are famous in film history 15 00:04:00,907 --> 00:04:02,701 because they share the same story beats, 16 00:04:02,701 --> 00:04:04,786 the same trajectory. 17 00:04:04,786 --> 00:04:07,456 They were both flops when they came out. 18 00:04:07,456 --> 00:04:09,124 The first one is "The Wizard of Oz," 19 00:04:09,124 --> 00:04:10,208 and the second one is Frank Capra's 20 00:04:10,208 --> 00:04:12,419 "It's A Wonderful Life." 21 00:04:12,419 --> 00:04:15,464 I'm shaking the dust of this crummy little town off my feet, 22 00:04:15,464 --> 00:04:17,674 and I'm going to see the world. 23 00:04:17,674 --> 00:04:20,093 Get me back! 24 00:04:20,093 --> 00:04:23,054 Get me back! I don't care what happens to me. 25 00:04:23,054 --> 00:04:26,057 There's no place like home. 26 00:04:26,141 --> 00:04:29,936 There's no place like home. 27 00:04:29,936 --> 00:04:34,441 NICHOLSON: And a curious thing happened with both of them. 28 00:04:34,441 --> 00:04:37,194 They went away for a few years, 29 00:04:37,194 --> 00:04:39,446 and then they were re-presented on TV 30 00:04:39,446 --> 00:04:42,324 and they were kind of put forth as special events. 31 00:04:44,785 --> 00:04:47,412 50% of the television sets in America 32 00:04:47,412 --> 00:04:48,872 were tuned to "The Wizard of Oz." 33 00:04:48,872 --> 00:04:50,791 And then "Oz" did so well in the numbers 34 00:04:50,791 --> 00:04:52,083 that the network brought it back 35 00:04:52,083 --> 00:04:54,044 and it eventually settled into a pattern. 36 00:04:54,044 --> 00:04:58,590 Always the same time of year. Always the same moment. 37 00:04:58,590 --> 00:05:02,052 It's right there, and it's special and it's precious. 38 00:05:04,346 --> 00:05:05,764 If "The Wizard of Oz" is not 39 00:05:05,764 --> 00:05:08,850 the quintessentially American fairy tale, 40 00:05:08,850 --> 00:05:12,187 I really don't know what is. 41 00:05:12,187 --> 00:05:13,563 It's one of the first movies 42 00:05:13,563 --> 00:05:15,398 I think most children are introduced to 43 00:05:15,398 --> 00:05:18,693 as "Hello, you are a child. Welcome to the world of movies. 44 00:05:18,693 --> 00:05:22,447 Let me open up the curtain of what cinema is." 45 00:05:22,447 --> 00:05:28,912 ♪ Somewhere over the rainbow ♪ 46 00:05:28,912 --> 00:05:34,376 ♪ Bluebirds fly ♪ 47 00:05:34,376 --> 00:05:36,545 NICHOLSON: But even beyond that, what makes it special 48 00:05:36,545 --> 00:05:38,296 is this is a movie that we've had 49 00:05:38,296 --> 00:05:42,467 that every generation of kids has watched for eight decades. 50 00:05:42,634 --> 00:05:45,554 [ Chanting indistinctly] 51 00:05:59,943 --> 00:06:01,778 There's just something in the shared 52 00:06:01,778 --> 00:06:04,656 candy-coloured musical universe of "The Wizard of Oz" 53 00:06:04,656 --> 00:06:06,324 that I find so remarkable, 54 00:06:06,324 --> 00:06:09,160 so visually and sonically influential. 55 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:11,705 We've all been to Oz. 56 00:06:11,705 --> 00:06:17,586 One is starved for Technicolor up there. 57 00:06:17,586 --> 00:06:19,963 NICHOLSON: And the thing is, it has not aged at all 58 00:06:19,963 --> 00:06:22,674 because it's a film that takes place so squarely 59 00:06:22,674 --> 00:06:25,010 in the world of musical and fantasy. 60 00:06:25,010 --> 00:06:26,845 You can never underestimate the power of 61 00:06:26,845 --> 00:06:28,930 when a movie that is extensively taking place 62 00:06:28,930 --> 00:06:31,224 in a normal universe breaks out into song. 63 00:06:31,224 --> 00:06:32,893 Because that is the moment 64 00:06:32,893 --> 00:06:35,562 when the film looks at the audience and it says, 65 00:06:35,562 --> 00:06:36,730 "Are you in?" 66 00:06:36,730 --> 00:06:39,524 ♪ Somewhere... ♪ 67 00:06:39,524 --> 00:06:41,109 NICHOLSON: It makes me think of the moment early on 68 00:06:41,109 --> 00:06:42,569 in "Wild at Heart." 69 00:06:42,569 --> 00:06:44,613 Nicolas Cage takes Laura Dern to a metal bar, 70 00:06:44,613 --> 00:06:47,032 and suddenly in the middle of this metal bar, 71 00:06:47,032 --> 00:06:48,700 he begins to sing Elvis. 72 00:06:48,700 --> 00:06:54,289 ♪ I would beg and steal ♪ 73 00:06:54,289 --> 00:06:59,127 ♪ Just to feel ♪ 74 00:06:59,127 --> 00:07:02,797 ♪ Just to feel ♪ 75 00:07:02,797 --> 00:07:06,509 ♪ Your heart ♪ 76 00:07:06,509 --> 00:07:08,553 NICHOLSON: And the band magically knows the notes 77 00:07:08,553 --> 00:07:10,764 and everybody else who's also at this metal bar 78 00:07:10,764 --> 00:07:12,807 magically sings along. 79 00:07:12,807 --> 00:07:15,560 ♪ So close to mine ♪ 80 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:19,022 NICHOLSON: David Lynch must have been four or five years old 81 00:07:19,022 --> 00:07:21,399 that first year they put "The Wizard of Oz" on TV. 82 00:07:24,527 --> 00:07:26,696 I do see the story of "The Wizard of Oz" 83 00:07:26,696 --> 00:07:30,575 as the story of David Lynch himself becoming a filmmaker. 84 00:07:30,575 --> 00:07:33,578 [ Down-tempo music plays ] 85 00:07:37,082 --> 00:07:39,084 I feel like I see him in it 86 00:07:39,084 --> 00:07:41,336 more than I even see his individual films. 87 00:07:41,336 --> 00:07:43,755 Despite all the references, 88 00:07:43,755 --> 00:07:46,007 despite all the red shoes and the curtains. 89 00:07:46,007 --> 00:07:49,010 [ Down-tempo music plays ] 90 00:07:53,932 --> 00:07:55,809 He's a guy from the Plains. 91 00:07:55,809 --> 00:07:57,602 Missoula doesn't look too different 92 00:07:57,602 --> 00:07:59,604 than the Kansas in this movie. 93 00:07:59,604 --> 00:08:03,024 And so he goes on this journey himself. 94 00:08:03,024 --> 00:08:06,194 He's always talking about consciousness and transcendence. 95 00:08:06,194 --> 00:08:09,280 And he takes us there through his films. 96 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,242 There's an ocean of pure, 97 00:08:12,242 --> 00:08:16,538 vibrant consciousness inside each one of us. 98 00:08:16,538 --> 00:08:21,292 MERRICK'S MOTHER: The stream flows, the wind blows, 99 00:08:21,292 --> 00:08:26,881 the cloud fleets, the heart beats. 100 00:08:26,881 --> 00:08:30,677 LYNCH: And it's right at the source and base of mind, 101 00:08:30,677 --> 00:08:32,887 right at the source of thought, 102 00:08:32,887 --> 00:08:36,224 and it's also at the source of all matter. 103 00:08:36,224 --> 00:08:38,226 You, uh -- You'd better close your eyes, 104 00:08:38,226 --> 00:08:40,562 my child, for a moment, in order to be 105 00:08:40,562 --> 00:08:43,815 better in tune with the infinite. 106 00:08:43,815 --> 00:08:46,276 NICHOLSON: And I think that's what Dorothy does in this film. 107 00:08:46,276 --> 00:08:49,988 She transcends and she goes to this other world 108 00:08:49,988 --> 00:08:52,073 and she goes on this journey where she winds up 109 00:08:52,073 --> 00:08:54,743 finding herself and knowing her own powers, 110 00:08:54,743 --> 00:08:57,370 which to me is the David Lynch story above everything. 111 00:08:57,370 --> 00:08:59,789 There's no place like home. 112 00:08:59,789 --> 00:09:02,000 NICHOLSON: He talks about his movies like "Lost Highway," 113 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:05,420 for example, as being what he calls psychogenic fugues, 114 00:09:05,420 --> 00:09:07,672 where a character gets knocked upside by trauma 115 00:09:07,672 --> 00:09:10,675 and they wind up slipping into this other dimension 116 00:09:10,675 --> 00:09:13,344 almost as a way of trying to find stability. 117 00:09:16,639 --> 00:09:18,892 I mean, whether or not you believe Oz is real, 118 00:09:18,892 --> 00:09:20,935 you know that Dorothy got hit on the head, 119 00:09:20,935 --> 00:09:23,063 that something very bad happened to her 120 00:09:23,063 --> 00:09:25,815 and that she was unconscious for a long time... 121 00:09:28,026 --> 00:09:29,319 that she went to another place, 122 00:09:29,319 --> 00:09:31,613 that she had this near-death experience 123 00:09:31,613 --> 00:09:32,781 in the middle of a tornado. 124 00:09:32,781 --> 00:09:34,783 Shit. 125 00:09:34,783 --> 00:09:37,660 Got this damn sticky stuff in my hair. 126 00:09:39,746 --> 00:09:41,831 NICHOLSON: There's this very small detail 127 00:09:41,831 --> 00:09:44,125 at the opening of "The Wizard of Oz." 128 00:09:44,125 --> 00:09:45,794 Right when the title comes up onscreen, 129 00:09:45,794 --> 00:09:47,504 you hear this gust of wind, 130 00:09:47,504 --> 00:09:49,172 but it's not a sound effect. 131 00:09:49,172 --> 00:09:51,216 It is humans sounding like a gust of wind. 132 00:09:51,216 --> 00:09:52,801 They're going "Woooh." 133 00:09:56,429 --> 00:09:58,890 That human wind sets up this mood for the whole film, 134 00:09:58,890 --> 00:10:02,560 you know, a whole film that winds up being defined by wind. 135 00:10:06,856 --> 00:10:09,067 And then when the house starts to swirl around, 136 00:10:09,067 --> 00:10:11,653 it is an absolute cacophony inside of this tornado. 137 00:10:11,653 --> 00:10:14,239 And then she lands and this entire movie 138 00:10:14,239 --> 00:10:16,783 goes silent for the first time. 139 00:10:18,785 --> 00:10:21,454 And that silence clears the table for the audience. 140 00:10:21,454 --> 00:10:22,914 And then the music kicks in 141 00:10:22,914 --> 00:10:24,916 and you start to hear the Oz theme, 142 00:10:24,916 --> 00:10:28,336 and you get a little gust of that human wind sound again. 143 00:10:28,336 --> 00:10:30,255 And you have to wonder if those same winds 144 00:10:30,255 --> 00:10:33,258 are the ones we hear in David's films. 145 00:10:33,258 --> 00:10:38,847 PEOPLE: Woooh! Woooh! 146 00:10:38,847 --> 00:10:40,932 LYNCH: I was painting a painting 147 00:10:40,932 --> 00:10:46,646 about four-foot square. 148 00:10:46,646 --> 00:10:48,439 And I was sitting back, 149 00:10:48,439 --> 00:10:50,567 probably taking a smoke, 150 00:10:50,567 --> 00:10:53,611 and looking at it. 151 00:10:53,611 --> 00:10:58,908 And from the painting, I heard a wind. 152 00:11:00,285 --> 00:11:01,870 NICHOLSON: I've heard David Lynch say that 153 00:11:01,870 --> 00:11:04,247 when he wants something special from his actors, 154 00:11:04,247 --> 00:11:06,166 he says "More wind," 155 00:11:06,166 --> 00:11:09,043 which means put more mystery in their performance. 156 00:11:09,043 --> 00:11:10,712 He, too, has that love of rooms 157 00:11:10,712 --> 00:11:13,298 that seem filled with wind that you can hear, 158 00:11:13,298 --> 00:11:16,301 even if a room seems like it should be completely airless. 159 00:11:16,301 --> 00:11:19,220 [Wind rushing ] 160 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:27,061 And I love that he talks about wind as the source of mystery 161 00:11:27,061 --> 00:11:29,147 when that is exactly what happens in "Oz." 162 00:11:29,147 --> 00:11:31,191 Wind is the source that rolls the girl around 163 00:11:31,191 --> 00:11:33,818 and it puts her somewhere new. 164 00:11:33,818 --> 00:11:35,486 The camera work in that scene 165 00:11:35,486 --> 00:11:38,823 helps set this really ominous sense about Oz. 166 00:11:38,823 --> 00:11:42,660 And it sets up this vibration of this land is beautiful, 167 00:11:42,660 --> 00:11:45,246 but you need to watch your back. 168 00:11:45,246 --> 00:11:47,999 Something with poison in it, I think. 169 00:11:47,999 --> 00:11:52,545 With poison in it, but attractive to the eye. 170 00:11:55,381 --> 00:11:58,092 NICHOLSON: I think there is a sense in a David Lynch film 171 00:11:58,092 --> 00:12:00,094 where he trains you really early on 172 00:12:00,094 --> 00:12:02,472 as the audience to never be content 173 00:12:02,472 --> 00:12:04,599 to just take things at surface value. 174 00:12:09,270 --> 00:12:11,856 He is always interested in what's underneath the surface, 175 00:12:11,856 --> 00:12:13,942 and he is pushing underneath that, 176 00:12:13,942 --> 00:12:16,319 and he is the person who would say, 177 00:12:16,319 --> 00:12:17,987 "Do you think that group of apple trees 178 00:12:17,987 --> 00:12:20,198 just looks like apple trees? I would look again. 179 00:12:20,198 --> 00:12:22,158 That grove of apple trees is actually alive." 180 00:12:22,158 --> 00:12:24,118 Ouch! 181 00:12:24,118 --> 00:12:25,370 NICHOLSON: There's violence 182 00:12:25,370 --> 00:12:28,039 where you're not expecting to see it. 183 00:12:28,039 --> 00:12:31,584 "The Wizard of Oz" is absolutely darker under the surface 184 00:12:31,584 --> 00:12:33,836 than the movie forces you to acknowledge. 185 00:12:36,047 --> 00:12:39,217 I mean, Dorothy enters Oz killing somebody. 186 00:12:39,217 --> 00:12:42,220 And that's all that's left of the Wicked Witch of the East. 187 00:12:42,220 --> 00:12:45,056 NICHOLSON: Two powerful women die in "The Wizard of Oz" 188 00:12:45,056 --> 00:12:47,767 at the hands of a young girl who is pretty okay with it. 189 00:12:47,767 --> 00:12:49,435 Like, does Alice go into Wonderland 190 00:12:49,435 --> 00:12:51,479 and just start murdering people left and right? 191 00:12:51,479 --> 00:12:53,314 I'm melting! Melting! 192 00:12:53,314 --> 00:12:55,608 She's dead. You killed her. 193 00:12:55,608 --> 00:12:58,528 NICHOLSON: And it's funny because Frank Baum 194 00:12:58,528 --> 00:13:00,321 looked across the ocean at Hans Christian Andersen 195 00:13:00,321 --> 00:13:01,739 and the Brothers Grimm, 196 00:13:01,739 --> 00:13:04,993 who were writing really grisly, gory stuff. 197 00:13:04,993 --> 00:13:06,869 And he thought, "I'm going to write a story 198 00:13:06,869 --> 00:13:10,248 that does not have that horror." 199 00:13:10,248 --> 00:13:12,458 But he didn't really do that. 200 00:13:16,754 --> 00:13:19,882 NICHOLSON: I think if there is a driving question or driving goal 201 00:13:19,882 --> 00:13:23,011 that really connects David Lynch in all of his films, 202 00:13:23,011 --> 00:13:25,763 it is that nothing should be taken for granted 203 00:13:25,763 --> 00:13:29,767 and that nothing is exactly what it is. 204 00:13:29,767 --> 00:13:31,102 Fred? 205 00:13:31,102 --> 00:13:34,355 I'm not me. 206 00:13:34,355 --> 00:13:36,316 I'm not. 207 00:13:36,316 --> 00:13:37,692 I'm not me. 208 00:13:37,692 --> 00:13:41,112 I'm not. I'm not me. 209 00:13:41,154 --> 00:13:43,114 [ Gasping ] 210 00:13:49,787 --> 00:13:52,248 NICHOLSON: And that we all contain within ourselves 211 00:13:52,248 --> 00:13:53,958 a deep truth of who we are 212 00:13:53,958 --> 00:13:57,170 and the power to be the person that we want to be. 213 00:14:01,883 --> 00:14:04,052 100%. 214 00:14:05,261 --> 00:14:07,180 NICHOLSON: It's interesting because every time 215 00:14:07,180 --> 00:14:10,600 I see David Lynch, I see a man who has done a lot of work 216 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:15,021 to maintain the sense of moving through the world like a child. 217 00:14:30,536 --> 00:14:33,581 And I love that he is so drawn to a character like Dorothy, 218 00:14:33,581 --> 00:14:37,293 whose defining characteristic is a complete lack of cynicism. 219 00:14:37,293 --> 00:14:38,795 She walks through this world, 220 00:14:38,795 --> 00:14:41,089 and when people are kind, she's grateful. 221 00:14:41,089 --> 00:14:43,174 The only way to get Dorothy back to Kansas 222 00:14:43,174 --> 00:14:45,093 is for me to take her there myself. 223 00:14:45,093 --> 00:14:46,302 [ Gasps ] 224 00:14:46,302 --> 00:14:49,347 Oh, will you? Could you? Oh! 225 00:14:50,181 --> 00:14:51,557 NICHOLSON: And when people are mean, she's like, 226 00:14:51,557 --> 00:14:54,602 "Well, you're mean." 227 00:14:54,602 --> 00:14:55,853 Shame on you. 228 00:14:55,853 --> 00:14:58,815 [ Crying 1 What did you do that for? 229 00:14:58,815 --> 00:15:00,983 NICHOLSON: But yet she's never jaded about anything. 230 00:15:00,983 --> 00:15:05,780 She has this gigantic, curious spirit that propels her forward. 231 00:15:05,780 --> 00:15:07,323 I think where David Lynch and Dorothy 232 00:15:07,323 --> 00:15:09,367 have this strong point of connection is in the fact 233 00:15:09,367 --> 00:15:12,578 that they both know that adventures cannot be planned. 234 00:15:15,206 --> 00:15:16,707 Life! 235 00:15:19,961 --> 00:15:23,423 Is full of surprises. 236 00:15:23,423 --> 00:15:24,465 NICHOLSON: They can only be approached 237 00:15:24,465 --> 00:15:27,176 with the right attitude. 238 00:15:27,176 --> 00:15:32,807 A man's attitude -- A man's attitude go some ways. 239 00:15:32,807 --> 00:15:35,643 The way his life will be. 240 00:15:35,643 --> 00:15:38,938 Is that something you might agree with? 241 00:15:38,980 --> 00:15:41,023 Sure. 242 00:15:41,023 --> 00:15:43,651 NICHOLSON: He still thinks, I think, of curtains 243 00:15:43,651 --> 00:15:46,779 almost as this gateway to magic. 244 00:15:46,779 --> 00:15:50,074 They open up and then you get to enter this other world. 245 00:15:50,074 --> 00:15:51,909 He favours theatrical curtains, 246 00:15:51,909 --> 00:15:54,579 the kind of curtains that belong to magicians and movie theatres, 247 00:15:54,579 --> 00:15:56,164 you know, the kind of curtains that you only use 248 00:15:56,164 --> 00:15:58,583 when you are framing a performance. 249 00:15:58,583 --> 00:16:00,293 The kind of curtains he would have seen 250 00:16:00,293 --> 00:16:02,128 when he goes to the movies when he was a young boy 251 00:16:02,128 --> 00:16:04,505 and that curtain opens up. 252 00:16:04,505 --> 00:16:06,757 And so when you see a curtain like that, 253 00:16:06,757 --> 00:16:10,136 you know that something is about to happen that is not real life. 254 00:16:12,221 --> 00:16:16,684 If a curtain is your divider between reality and fantasy, 255 00:16:16,684 --> 00:16:20,146 the curtain is easy to get through and to walk through. 256 00:16:20,146 --> 00:16:23,024 The curtain is welcoming. 257 00:16:23,024 --> 00:16:24,942 It's as easy as Toto pulling back the curtain 258 00:16:24,942 --> 00:16:26,736 on the great wizard himself. 259 00:16:26,736 --> 00:16:29,197 WIZARD: Think yourself lucky. 260 00:16:29,197 --> 00:16:34,535 Oh, ah, I -- I am the great and powerful Wizard of Oz. 261 00:16:34,535 --> 00:16:36,120 You're a very bad man. 262 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:37,997 NICHOLSON: And you see on the Wizard's face 263 00:16:37,997 --> 00:16:40,166 this disappointment 264 00:16:40,166 --> 00:16:42,335 because he has disappointed them. 265 00:16:42,335 --> 00:16:45,963 I'm just a very bad wizard. 266 00:16:45,963 --> 00:16:47,507 NICHOLSON: And it's almost unfair, I think, 267 00:16:47,507 --> 00:16:49,717 for everybody to be so sad when they see him 268 00:16:49,717 --> 00:16:52,470 because it's still a great show. 269 00:16:52,470 --> 00:16:54,764 There's this fear that the director does not want 270 00:16:54,764 --> 00:16:56,807 his craft to be exposed. 271 00:16:56,807 --> 00:16:58,392 And I wonder if that's a little bit of 272 00:16:58,392 --> 00:16:59,769 where David Lynch is like, 273 00:16:59,769 --> 00:17:01,479 "I don't want to explain my films. 274 00:17:01,479 --> 00:17:03,940 I don't want to ever show you my gears and my levers 275 00:17:03,940 --> 00:17:05,358 because nothing lives up 276 00:17:05,358 --> 00:17:07,276 to what you have perceived on the screen." 277 00:17:09,487 --> 00:17:13,282 Damian asks, "What's behind the red curtains?" 278 00:17:13,282 --> 00:17:15,910 It's a top-secret thing, Damian. 279 00:17:15,910 --> 00:17:17,787 And, uh... 280 00:17:19,830 --> 00:17:22,333 Just leave it -- leave it like that. 281 00:17:22,333 --> 00:17:24,085 NICHOLSON: Sometimes when you see a filmmaker make an allusion 282 00:17:24,085 --> 00:17:26,546 to a film that they love, they're doing it for this reason 283 00:17:26,546 --> 00:17:28,839 of saying "This film was an influence on me. 284 00:17:28,839 --> 00:17:30,633 You know, go watch it, go pay attention to it." 285 00:17:30,633 --> 00:17:32,093 But that is not at all 286 00:17:32,093 --> 00:17:34,178 how I think David Lynch uses "The Wizard of Oz." 287 00:17:34,178 --> 00:17:36,180 I mean, you can't use "The Wizard of Oz" like that 288 00:17:36,180 --> 00:17:38,182 because everyone's seen that film. 289 00:17:43,813 --> 00:17:45,648 I think he wants to go home. 290 00:17:45,648 --> 00:17:48,359 Home. 291 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,195 Where is your home? Is that right? 292 00:17:51,195 --> 00:17:54,031 He knows where his home is. 293 00:17:54,031 --> 00:17:55,658 Well, where is his home? 294 00:17:58,244 --> 00:18:00,246 Where home. 295 00:18:00,246 --> 00:18:03,624 ♪ We're off to see the Wizard, the wonderful Wizard of Oz ♪ 296 00:18:03,624 --> 00:18:05,126 NICHOLSON: He almost uses it as a way 297 00:18:05,126 --> 00:18:08,921 of making his films more approachable. 298 00:18:08,921 --> 00:18:10,715 When you have something like "Wild at Heart," 299 00:18:10,715 --> 00:18:13,551 which is a story without really clear arcs, 300 00:18:13,551 --> 00:18:15,595 and there's violence that comes in out of nowhere, 301 00:18:15,595 --> 00:18:17,138 and tragedy that comes in out of nowhere, 302 00:18:17,138 --> 00:18:21,767 and yet incredible hot lust and humour and romance, 303 00:18:21,767 --> 00:18:23,603 to take this crazy, like, mother figure 304 00:18:23,603 --> 00:18:25,146 with her red press-on nails 305 00:18:25,146 --> 00:18:26,981 and keep associating her with the Wicked Witch 306 00:18:26,981 --> 00:18:30,818 is almost a way of giving that character a parallel. 307 00:18:30,818 --> 00:18:32,570 Look out! 308 00:18:32,570 --> 00:18:35,615 I'm going! Ohhh! 309 00:18:35,615 --> 00:18:38,826 NICHOLSON: And letting the audience say, 310 00:18:38,826 --> 00:18:41,162 "I kind of understand who she is and why she does this. 311 00:18:41,162 --> 00:18:44,957 And I don't need to know any more about her motivations." 312 00:18:44,957 --> 00:18:46,792 He's using "The Wizard of Oz," I think, 313 00:18:46,792 --> 00:18:49,712 almost as a way of shaking hands with the people in the audience 314 00:18:49,712 --> 00:18:52,798 and saying, "We do have this shared language. 315 00:18:52,798 --> 00:18:54,091 You can trust me." 316 00:18:54,091 --> 00:18:55,509 We will pursue... 317 00:18:55,509 --> 00:18:59,555 Capture, and incarcerate. 318 00:18:59,555 --> 00:19:01,098 Let's hit the road. 319 00:19:03,684 --> 00:19:06,687 [ Dramatic music plays] 320 00:19:16,072 --> 00:19:17,406 ASCHER: My family and I were just watching 321 00:19:17,406 --> 00:19:18,908 "Back to the Future," 322 00:19:18,908 --> 00:19:21,952 which couldn't be a less Lynchian movie if it tried. 323 00:19:21,952 --> 00:19:24,372 But if you use the lens of "Oz" to look at it, 324 00:19:24,372 --> 00:19:25,706 well, what do you have? 325 00:19:25,706 --> 00:19:27,833 A young man from Any town, USA, 326 00:19:27,833 --> 00:19:30,294 who travels magically to another world, 327 00:19:30,294 --> 00:19:32,129 in this case, his own past. 328 00:19:36,008 --> 00:19:37,927 This has got to be a dream. 329 00:19:37,927 --> 00:19:39,720 ASCHER: Where he encounters doppelgangers of people 330 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:43,265 that he knows from home. 331 00:19:43,265 --> 00:19:45,142 Now. I've got no reason to suspect 332 00:19:45,142 --> 00:19:48,270 that "Back to the Future" was inspired by "The Wizard of Oz." 333 00:19:48,270 --> 00:19:51,816 But "The Wizard of Oz" is a really sturdy template. 334 00:19:51,816 --> 00:19:53,901 It's a provocative lens to look at, you know, 335 00:19:53,901 --> 00:19:55,319 a lot of different stories through. 336 00:19:55,319 --> 00:19:57,154 Mom. Dad. 337 00:19:57,154 --> 00:19:59,281 -Did you hit your head? -Marty, are you alright? 338 00:19:59,281 --> 00:20:01,826 You guys -- you guys look great. 339 00:20:01,826 --> 00:20:05,496 Auntie Em, it's you. 340 00:20:05,496 --> 00:20:07,415 ASCHER: There's a strong Oz/Kansas dynamic 341 00:20:07,415 --> 00:20:09,542 in "Blue Velvet." 342 00:20:09,542 --> 00:20:11,252 We see how close the real world 343 00:20:11,252 --> 00:20:13,546 and then that nightmare world are to one another. 344 00:20:16,424 --> 00:20:20,636 FRANK: Dreams talk to you. 345 00:20:20,636 --> 00:20:22,847 ORBISON: ♪ In dreams ♪ 346 00:20:22,847 --> 00:20:26,726 In dreams, you're mine. 347 00:20:26,726 --> 00:20:29,854 ASCHER: Jeffrey leaves the Kansas of his family's bubble 348 00:20:29,854 --> 00:20:33,524 deep in the suburbs of Lumberton to the other side of Lincoln, 349 00:20:33,524 --> 00:20:37,737 where the sinister adults-only action goes down. 350 00:20:37,737 --> 00:20:39,780 Here's to an interesting expeflence,huh? 351 00:20:39,780 --> 00:20:42,283 I'll drink to that. 352 00:20:42,283 --> 00:20:43,951 ASCHER: He crosses over when he sneaks into 353 00:20:43,951 --> 00:20:46,036 Dorothy Va||en's apartment. 354 00:20:46,036 --> 00:20:47,496 She's certainly a character from Oz, 355 00:20:47,496 --> 00:20:51,208 not from Kansas, in Jeffrey's journey. 356 00:20:51,208 --> 00:20:53,544 And then Jeffrey is dragged through hell, 357 00:20:53,544 --> 00:20:56,881 kills the big bad, and then returns to his family. 358 00:20:56,881 --> 00:20:59,383 And then at the very end of that scene with the robin, 359 00:20:59,383 --> 00:21:02,052 with Jeffrey and his family gathered around the window... 360 00:21:02,052 --> 00:21:04,764 MRS. BEAUMONT: Jeffrey, lunch is ready. 361 00:21:04,764 --> 00:21:06,474 Okay. 362 00:21:06,474 --> 00:21:09,101 ASCHER: ...looks an awful lot like Dorothy in her bed, 363 00:21:09,101 --> 00:21:10,686 surrounded by her loving family. 364 00:21:10,686 --> 00:21:13,481 It's a strange world. 365 00:21:13,481 --> 00:21:16,150 Isn't it? 366 00:21:16,150 --> 00:21:19,195 ASCHER: But knowing things, having experienced things 367 00:21:19,195 --> 00:21:20,905 that they never will. 368 00:21:26,702 --> 00:21:29,914 Paul Atreides is a very Dorothy-like character. 369 00:21:29,914 --> 00:21:31,916 He certainly travels through multiple worlds. 370 00:21:31,916 --> 00:21:36,128 Moves from the more colourful Caladan to Arrakis, Dune, 371 00:21:36,128 --> 00:21:39,590 which is sepia-toned, a lot like Kansas. 372 00:21:39,590 --> 00:21:44,428 Ultimately, he liberates Dune just as Dorothy liberates Oz. 373 00:21:44,428 --> 00:21:46,931 John Merrick, the Elephant Man, 374 00:21:46,931 --> 00:21:48,474 is really the epitome of a character 375 00:21:48,474 --> 00:21:50,476 who moves between different worlds. 376 00:21:50,476 --> 00:21:52,186 A freak on exhibit in the carnival 377 00:21:52,186 --> 00:21:53,896 is just about the lowest social class 378 00:21:53,896 --> 00:21:56,649 I can imagine in Victorian England. 379 00:21:56,649 --> 00:21:58,818 And he leaves it for London Hospital, 380 00:21:58,818 --> 00:22:01,153 which becomes his gateway to the upper class. 381 00:22:01,153 --> 00:22:02,947 If Oz echoes Kansas, 382 00:22:02,947 --> 00:22:06,450 well, then, the hospital echoes the carnival. 383 00:22:06,450 --> 00:22:08,619 The horror and the abuse recur again, 384 00:22:08,619 --> 00:22:10,996 first, more politely as scientific curiosity, 385 00:22:10,996 --> 00:22:14,250 but then again quite literally. 386 00:22:14,250 --> 00:22:16,710 So if you see Dorothy as an innocent character 387 00:22:16,710 --> 00:22:18,629 flung into a dangerous world, 388 00:22:18,629 --> 00:22:21,173 well, Merrick's been born into one, 389 00:22:21,173 --> 00:22:23,968 and he strives to find his kinder Kansas, 390 00:22:23,968 --> 00:22:27,179 which, you know, is sort of a reversal of "Oz." 391 00:22:27,179 --> 00:22:30,641 And the images that we see of his angelic mother seem, 392 00:22:30,641 --> 00:22:33,227 at least to me, to be a little inspired 393 00:22:33,227 --> 00:22:35,145 by Glinda the Good Witch, 394 00:22:35,145 --> 00:22:36,772 the epitome of kindness. 395 00:22:36,772 --> 00:22:38,649 Nothing will die. 396 00:22:42,820 --> 00:22:45,531 ASCHER: But just because "Oz" can be a handy way 397 00:22:45,531 --> 00:22:48,701 to help parse out particular elements of Lynch's work, 398 00:22:48,701 --> 00:22:50,786 I wouldn't assume that all of those similarities 399 00:22:50,786 --> 00:22:54,456 were necessarily directly inspired by "Oz." 400 00:22:54,456 --> 00:22:56,333 They could be. 401 00:22:56,333 --> 00:22:59,920 Desiring an idea is like a bait on a hook. 402 00:22:59,920 --> 00:23:02,047 -MAN: Yeah. -You can pull them in. 403 00:23:02,047 --> 00:23:04,925 I like to think of it as in the other room, 404 00:23:04,925 --> 00:23:07,845 the puzzle is all together, 405 00:23:07,845 --> 00:23:11,974 but they keep flipping in just one piece at a time. 406 00:23:11,974 --> 00:23:16,520 -In the other room... -Over there. 407 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,148 ASCHER: Based on G|inda's appearance in "Wild at Heart," 408 00:23:19,148 --> 00:23:20,858 I think it's safe to assume that he spent some time 409 00:23:20,858 --> 00:23:22,276 thinking about the movie. 410 00:23:22,276 --> 00:23:24,778 But, you know, I personally have no idea 411 00:23:24,778 --> 00:23:28,574 how far that influence really goes. 412 00:23:28,574 --> 00:23:31,577 He's certainly aware of "Oz." 413 00:23:31,577 --> 00:23:33,245 It's certainly something that he thinks about. 414 00:23:33,245 --> 00:23:37,416 Certainly something that's important to him. 415 00:23:37,416 --> 00:23:39,877 I'm going to play "Somewhere Over the Rainbow." 416 00:23:39,877 --> 00:23:42,630 And try to, anyway- 417 00:24:01,231 --> 00:24:02,983 ASCHER: A lot of people go to the movies 418 00:24:02,983 --> 00:24:06,445 in order to experience new worlds and new sensations, 419 00:24:06,445 --> 00:24:08,322 and for that, you need a relatable, innocent, 420 00:24:08,322 --> 00:24:11,408 inexperienced character to be confronted by those things. 421 00:24:11,408 --> 00:24:13,160 And I think that that approach works really well 422 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:14,620 because, I mean, 423 00:24:14,620 --> 00:24:19,208 the real world often feels chaotic and strange. 424 00:24:19,208 --> 00:24:20,709 Every day we're dragged into 425 00:24:20,709 --> 00:24:22,962 some chaotic new hellscape against our will. 426 00:24:22,962 --> 00:24:24,713 And we have to find allies. 427 00:24:24,713 --> 00:24:27,049 We have to find a way out to not only achieve our goals, 428 00:24:27,049 --> 00:24:30,260 but make it back home at the end of the day. 429 00:24:30,260 --> 00:24:33,138 Of course, I could be projecting. 430 00:24:33,138 --> 00:24:36,141 It might be that the broad strokes of "Oz" -- 431 00:24:36,141 --> 00:24:39,395 an innocent character finding herself in a nightmare world, 432 00:24:39,395 --> 00:24:41,772 characters appearing in more than one shape 433 00:24:41,772 --> 00:24:45,651 within more than one avatar, having multiple doppelgangers, 434 00:24:45,651 --> 00:24:47,569 even the man behind the curtain, 435 00:24:47,569 --> 00:24:51,073 sort of a sinister power figure at the centre of the narrative, 436 00:24:51,073 --> 00:24:53,325 one who has two faces -- 437 00:24:53,325 --> 00:24:55,452 Well, could be that that's a generic enough, 438 00:24:55,452 --> 00:24:58,205 a powerful enough metaphor that you could squeeze it 439 00:24:58,205 --> 00:25:00,374 and poke it and prod it to apply to most anything. 440 00:25:00,374 --> 00:25:04,378 Thousands of movies are based on the idea of fish out of water. 441 00:25:04,378 --> 00:25:05,921 "Beverly Hills Cop" -- 442 00:25:05,921 --> 00:25:08,257 Axel Foley travels from the urban grime of Detroit 443 00:25:08,257 --> 00:25:11,593 to glitzy Beverly Hills, learns a couple lessons, 444 00:25:11,593 --> 00:25:13,804 including that there's less difference than you might think 445 00:25:13,804 --> 00:25:15,472 at first glance between those places, 446 00:25:15,472 --> 00:25:17,808 and then he goes back home. 447 00:25:17,808 --> 00:25:19,893 The idea of going on a great journey, 448 00:25:19,893 --> 00:25:21,812 extending yourself beyond your comfort level... 449 00:25:21,854 --> 00:25:25,190 Look. They're shooting buffalo. 450 00:25:30,487 --> 00:25:32,364 ASCH ER: It's a story that's, what, 451 00:25:32,364 --> 00:25:34,324 three-quarters of American movies? 452 00:25:34,324 --> 00:25:37,619 It's probably hard to overstate how common that trope is. 453 00:25:37,619 --> 00:25:40,205 Luke travels from his home, his Kansas-like desert home 454 00:25:40,205 --> 00:25:42,499 to the Death Star to the Rebellion. 455 00:25:42,499 --> 00:25:44,460 Is that an "Oz" narrative? 456 00:25:44,460 --> 00:25:45,627 Is everything? 457 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,593 There's a really interesting movie I watched recently, 458 00:25:52,593 --> 00:25:53,927 "The Miracle Worker," 459 00:25:53,927 --> 00:25:56,597 Arthur Penn's 1962 movie about Helen Keller. 460 00:25:56,597 --> 00:25:58,057 And it really felt like 461 00:25:58,057 --> 00:26:01,185 I was watching an early lost David Lynch film. 462 00:26:01,185 --> 00:26:03,854 There's a dinner scene where the very formal 463 00:26:03,854 --> 00:26:06,523 and proper Keller family are sitting around the table, 464 00:26:06,523 --> 00:26:09,359 and Helen is racing around it like a wild animal, 465 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:10,611 growling at food, grunting, 466 00:26:10,611 --> 00:26:12,654 and all the rest of the family around her 467 00:26:12,654 --> 00:26:15,282 are trying to act like nothing is strange. 468 00:26:15,282 --> 00:26:16,658 That kind of contrast, 469 00:26:16,658 --> 00:26:20,204 at once comic and horrifying and a little sad, 470 00:26:20,204 --> 00:26:21,872 it felt very Lynchian. 471 00:26:21,872 --> 00:26:25,209 She'll be alright in a minute. 472 00:26:25,209 --> 00:26:27,795 ASCHER: There's another moment where her teacher 473 00:26:27,795 --> 00:26:29,797 is watching Helen out the window, 474 00:26:29,797 --> 00:26:32,966 and then Annie flashes back to her own school days. 475 00:26:32,966 --> 00:26:35,344 As a kid, she was in an institution for the blind, 476 00:26:35,344 --> 00:26:39,264 and Penn uses a double exposure dissolve that lasts 477 00:26:39,264 --> 00:26:42,226 just an incredibly long time. 478 00:26:42,226 --> 00:26:43,644 If it doesn't look like a dream scene 479 00:26:43,644 --> 00:26:44,895 straight out of "The Elephant Man" 480 00:26:44,895 --> 00:26:47,773 or "Eraserhead," I don't know what does. 481 00:26:47,773 --> 00:26:49,650 It's something that David Lynch 482 00:26:49,650 --> 00:26:52,027 does in a way that feels effortless 483 00:26:52,027 --> 00:26:55,489 and it has this powerful, dreamlike effect. 484 00:26:55,489 --> 00:26:58,325 There's that amazing dissolve on Cooper's face 485 00:26:58,325 --> 00:27:00,369 that lasts a minute, minute and a half 486 00:27:00,369 --> 00:27:03,956 where he seems to be unmoored in his world. 487 00:27:03,956 --> 00:27:05,791 In "The Miracle Worker," 488 00:27:05,791 --> 00:27:08,168 it's almost as if the ghosts of Annie's past have returned. 489 00:27:08,168 --> 00:27:11,171 And in both cases, it's slightly "Oz"-like. 490 00:27:11,171 --> 00:27:13,715 All these characters are becoming untethered 491 00:27:13,715 --> 00:27:16,468 and losing track of which layer of reality they're in. 492 00:27:20,222 --> 00:27:24,601 Why would Lynch be that absorbed with "The Wizard of Oz"? 493 00:27:24,601 --> 00:27:28,147 Well, it's a very nostalgic American icon of a film. 494 00:27:30,899 --> 00:27:33,402 But anyway, Toto, we're home. 495 00:27:33,402 --> 00:27:36,488 Home. And this is my room. 496 00:27:36,488 --> 00:27:38,824 ASCHER: In a lot of his movies, there's a sense of a search 497 00:27:38,824 --> 00:27:42,035 for a sort of lost, perfect American world. 498 00:27:42,035 --> 00:27:45,122 A nostalgia for paradise lost. 499 00:27:45,122 --> 00:27:47,291 Perhaps for one that never really existed. 500 00:27:47,291 --> 00:27:50,460 Did he watch "The Wizard of Oz" on a perfect day 501 00:27:50,460 --> 00:27:52,421 at the perfect time as a child 502 00:27:52,421 --> 00:27:54,756 and it sort of baked into his subconscious? 503 00:27:54,756 --> 00:27:56,550 I wonder if on the same day 504 00:27:56,550 --> 00:27:59,178 he watched "The Brain From Planet Arous" instead, 505 00:27:59,178 --> 00:28:01,263 would his movies be very, very different? 506 00:28:01,263 --> 00:28:04,266 [ Dramatic music plays] 507 00:28:15,444 --> 00:28:19,406 Many filmmakers' works are often variations on a theme. 508 00:28:19,406 --> 00:28:21,450 To me, Stanley Kubrick's films are often 509 00:28:21,450 --> 00:28:25,871 about exposing the abuses, the excesses of people in power. 510 00:28:25,871 --> 00:28:28,999 "Paths of Glory" being one of the most literal ones. 511 00:28:28,999 --> 00:28:31,793 [ Speaks German ] 512 00:28:31,793 --> 00:28:34,379 -Guten tag. -[ Laughter] 513 00:28:34,379 --> 00:28:38,383 Hey, talk in a civilised language! 514 00:28:38,383 --> 00:28:40,844 But that continues all the way up to "Eyes Wide Shut," 515 00:28:40,844 --> 00:28:43,430 which is about the decadent super rich. 516 00:28:43,430 --> 00:28:48,894 Ladies, where exactly are we going? 517 00:28:48,894 --> 00:28:52,314 -Exactly? -[ Laughter] 518 00:28:52,314 --> 00:28:55,943 Where the rainbow ends. 519 00:28:56,026 --> 00:28:58,070 Where the rainbow ends. 520 00:28:58,070 --> 00:29:00,447 ASCHER: In "The Shining," there's the whole conversation 521 00:29:00,447 --> 00:29:03,533 about all the best people who stayed at the Overlook. 522 00:29:03,533 --> 00:29:06,912 We had four presidents who stayed here. 523 00:29:06,912 --> 00:29:08,497 Lots of movie stars. 524 00:29:08,497 --> 00:29:09,915 Royalty? 525 00:29:09,915 --> 00:29:11,875 All the best people. 526 00:29:11,875 --> 00:29:14,461 ASCHER: Even Lolita is a girl who's preyed upon 527 00:29:14,461 --> 00:29:16,797 by different powerful men, 528 00:29:16,797 --> 00:29:19,216 Clare Quilty and Humbert Humbert. 529 00:29:19,216 --> 00:29:22,219 Gee, I'm really winning here. I'm really winning. 530 00:29:22,219 --> 00:29:25,555 I hope I don't get overcome with power. 531 00:29:25,555 --> 00:29:27,307 ASCHER: Lolita is a girl who's forced to live 532 00:29:27,307 --> 00:29:28,475 in multiple worlds, 533 00:29:28,475 --> 00:29:29,768 the normal one of teenagers, 534 00:29:29,768 --> 00:29:32,813 but also a darker adult one. 535 00:29:32,813 --> 00:29:34,940 You want to stay with this filthy boy? 536 00:29:34,940 --> 00:29:36,733 -That's what it is, isn't it? -Yes! 537 00:29:36,733 --> 00:29:39,569 -Why don't you leave me alone? -Shut your filthy mouth. 538 00:29:39,569 --> 00:29:40,904 ASCHER: There's a lot of "Lolita" the film 539 00:29:40,904 --> 00:29:42,072 in "Twin Peaks," 540 00:29:42,072 --> 00:29:43,949 and there's a lot of Dolores Haze 541 00:29:43,949 --> 00:29:46,118 in Laura Palmer. 542 00:29:46,118 --> 00:29:50,414 What is real? How do you define real? 543 00:29:50,414 --> 00:29:51,540 ASCHER: Right now, I'm wrapping up a film 544 00:29:51,540 --> 00:29:53,125 about simulation theory 545 00:29:53,125 --> 00:29:55,502 and "The Wizard of Oz" has been coming up a lot 546 00:29:55,502 --> 00:29:58,130 because at the end of the day, what kind of movie is it? 547 00:29:58,130 --> 00:29:59,381 It's the story of a young girl 548 00:29:59,381 --> 00:30:02,843 who moves between parallel worlds. 549 00:30:02,843 --> 00:30:05,137 It means buckle your seat belt, Dorothy, 550 00:30:05,137 --> 00:30:07,848 because Kansas is going bye-bye. 551 00:30:07,848 --> 00:30:10,058 -[ Thunder rumbles] -ASCHER: And there's a question, 552 00:30:10,058 --> 00:30:12,728 a sort of question mark left at the end. 553 00:30:12,728 --> 00:30:14,646 Which of these worlds is the real one? 554 00:30:14,646 --> 00:30:17,024 Are both of them real in some way? 555 00:30:17,024 --> 00:30:20,027 But it wasn't a dream. It was a place. 556 00:30:20,027 --> 00:30:23,864 And you, and you, and you, and you were there. 557 00:30:24,072 --> 00:30:25,782 ASCHER: That's a question that people play with 558 00:30:25,782 --> 00:30:28,076 in countless movies that have been influenced by it, 559 00:30:28,076 --> 00:30:30,996 everything from "Nightmare on Elm Street" to "The Matrix." 560 00:30:30,996 --> 00:30:33,040 Lynch's films are filled with characters 561 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:34,624 who move between different worlds, 562 00:30:34,624 --> 00:30:39,129 and they're often very innocent characters like Dorothy. 563 00:30:39,129 --> 00:30:42,632 Never seen so many trees in my life. 564 00:30:42,632 --> 00:30:44,134 W.C. Fields would say, 565 00:30:44,134 --> 00:30:45,635 "I'd rather be here than Philadelphia." 566 00:30:45,635 --> 00:30:47,387 ASCHER: In "Mulholland Drive," 567 00:30:47,387 --> 00:30:49,806 which might be the most "Wizard of Oz"-y of all of them, 568 00:30:49,806 --> 00:30:52,893 Betty is a perfect innocent who finds herself in sort of 569 00:30:52,893 --> 00:30:56,313 the twin versions of Hollywood, the dream and the nightmare. 570 00:30:56,313 --> 00:30:58,440 I think that in Lynch's duelling realities, 571 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,318 the membranes between layers of reality are thinner 572 00:31:01,318 --> 00:31:04,071 than they were in "The Wizard of Oz." 573 00:31:04,071 --> 00:31:05,489 In many of these movies, 574 00:31:05,489 --> 00:31:07,491 there are characters who hold all the cards, 575 00:31:07,491 --> 00:31:09,576 just like The Wizard of Oz himself. 576 00:31:09,576 --> 00:31:11,328 The man behind the curtain. 577 00:31:11,328 --> 00:31:16,208 Characters whose influence travels between worlds. 578 00:31:16,208 --> 00:31:18,377 We've met before, haven't we? 579 00:31:22,255 --> 00:31:23,924 I don't think so. 580 00:31:27,177 --> 00:31:30,430 Where was it you think we met? 581 00:31:30,430 --> 00:31:32,766 At your house. Don't you remember? 582 00:31:34,810 --> 00:31:37,354 When Lynch was talking about "Inland Empire," 583 00:31:37,354 --> 00:31:38,980 another story of a woman who moves between 584 00:31:38,980 --> 00:31:42,359 different levels of reality, he once answered, 585 00:31:42,359 --> 00:31:43,860 "We are like the spider. 586 00:31:43,860 --> 00:31:46,405 We weave our life and then move along it. 587 00:31:46,405 --> 00:31:47,948 We are like the dreamer who dreams, 588 00:31:47,948 --> 00:31:49,825 then lives in the dream. 589 00:31:49,825 --> 00:31:52,619 This is true for the entire universe." 590 00:31:52,619 --> 00:31:56,081 Like Mulholland Drive and Winkie's Diner, 591 00:31:56,081 --> 00:31:57,916 that guy is talking about his dream, 592 00:31:57,916 --> 00:32:00,502 and he's afraid that the dream could come true. 593 00:32:00,502 --> 00:32:03,380 And then, soon enough, he finds himself in the nightmare 594 00:32:03,380 --> 00:32:05,715 of having to relive that dream. 595 00:32:05,715 --> 00:32:07,092 He says to a psychiatrist, 596 00:32:07,092 --> 00:32:09,302 "In the dream, I was sitting here, 597 00:32:09,302 --> 00:32:12,139 and you were up there by the cash register," 598 00:32:12,139 --> 00:32:14,724 and then it panned slowly over to the cash register. 599 00:32:14,724 --> 00:32:18,353 And you see the absence of the psychiatrist. 600 00:32:18,353 --> 00:32:20,355 And it cuts back and then you see the gears 601 00:32:20,355 --> 00:32:23,358 turning in the psychiatrist's head who says, 602 00:32:23,358 --> 00:32:27,446 "Oh, you want to see if it's real." 603 00:32:27,446 --> 00:32:29,156 And then the man can't stop it from happening. 604 00:32:29,156 --> 00:32:30,657 The psychiatrist gets up 605 00:32:30,657 --> 00:32:33,326 and he walks to the register and we pan over. 606 00:32:33,326 --> 00:32:36,371 And now he is exactly in that position. 607 00:32:36,371 --> 00:32:38,832 He's filled the negative space, 608 00:32:38,832 --> 00:32:41,334 and then the man finds himself in his dream 609 00:32:41,334 --> 00:32:44,546 the way Dorothy is transported into her dreams of Oz, 610 00:32:44,546 --> 00:32:47,966 only without a tornado or even a dissolve. 611 00:32:47,966 --> 00:32:50,552 Just in the space of a line of dialogue or two. 612 00:32:53,597 --> 00:32:55,974 That very last scene in "Twin Peaks: The Return" 613 00:32:55,974 --> 00:32:57,809 is the summation of a lot of ideas 614 00:32:57,809 --> 00:33:00,770 that I think about with "Oz" and with Lynch. 615 00:33:00,770 --> 00:33:02,355 The question of dreams versus realities. 616 00:33:02,355 --> 00:33:04,024 Because I read that 617 00:33:04,024 --> 00:33:06,443 the woman who answered the door in the scene 618 00:33:06,443 --> 00:33:10,447 is actually the woman who lives in that house in our world. 619 00:33:12,616 --> 00:33:14,367 Is this your house? 620 00:33:14,367 --> 00:33:18,914 Do you own this house or do you rent this house? 621 00:33:18,914 --> 00:33:20,957 Yes, we own this house. 622 00:33:20,957 --> 00:33:23,376 ASCHER: So it's almost as if, 623 00:33:23,376 --> 00:33:27,464 well, which of the thousands of possible multiple realities 624 00:33:27,464 --> 00:33:30,217 does Cooper land in at the end of the series? 625 00:33:30,217 --> 00:33:33,553 He lands in the same one that you and I are living in 626 00:33:33,553 --> 00:33:35,680 and that the woman who owns the house that they film 627 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,725 "Twin Peaks: The Return" lives in. 628 00:33:38,725 --> 00:33:42,270 And it's more than Cooper and Carrie are able to take. 629 00:33:42,270 --> 00:33:43,897 What year is this? 630 00:33:43,897 --> 00:33:46,942 [ Dramatic music plays] 631 00:34:09,714 --> 00:34:17,347 [ Screams ] 632 00:34:18,682 --> 00:34:21,184 ASCHER: They end that sequence in a complete mental breakdown, 633 00:34:21,184 --> 00:34:22,811 a complete panic, 634 00:34:22,811 --> 00:34:25,647 which was an experience that I really went through 635 00:34:25,647 --> 00:34:27,524 while watching that whole season. 636 00:34:27,524 --> 00:34:28,984 It was shortly after the election 637 00:34:28,984 --> 00:34:30,777 and a lot of us were confused and scared 638 00:34:30,777 --> 00:34:33,655 about what was going to happen in the world. 639 00:34:33,655 --> 00:34:36,032 God bless America. 640 00:34:36,032 --> 00:34:38,201 ASCHER: So it's really nice to return 641 00:34:38,201 --> 00:34:39,869 to the world of "Twin Peaks," 642 00:34:39,869 --> 00:34:41,538 even if within the show, 643 00:34:41,538 --> 00:34:44,207 there's one unspeakable nightmare after another, 644 00:34:44,207 --> 00:34:46,876 at least it was our unspeakable nightmare. 645 00:34:46,876 --> 00:34:49,588 This is the water. 646 00:34:49,588 --> 00:34:53,592 And this is the well. 647 00:34:53,592 --> 00:34:57,846 Drink full, and descend. 648 00:34:57,846 --> 00:35:00,140 The horse is the white of the eyes, 649 00:35:00,140 --> 00:35:02,225 and dark within. 650 00:35:04,311 --> 00:35:07,772 ASCHER: But the strangeness crossed over into my reality 651 00:35:07,772 --> 00:35:10,150 because I remember episode eight, the big episode, 652 00:35:10,150 --> 00:35:13,570 the one with the atom bomb and the fireman and that lizard. 653 00:35:13,570 --> 00:35:14,779 I've watched that episode twice. 654 00:35:14,779 --> 00:35:16,615 And each time, another horror 655 00:35:16,615 --> 00:35:18,825 would be waiting for me the morning after. 656 00:35:18,825 --> 00:35:21,494 The first time my wife and I watched it, 657 00:35:21,494 --> 00:35:23,330 our cat was acting really strange, 658 00:35:23,330 --> 00:35:27,000 rubbing her head against the TV. 659 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:28,793 The next morning, we came downstairs, 660 00:35:28,793 --> 00:35:32,088 and the floor was just littered with blood and feathers 661 00:35:32,088 --> 00:35:33,840 of a bird that she had managed to catch 662 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,801 while locked in the house all night. 663 00:35:36,801 --> 00:35:38,428 Maybe she escaped through a window 664 00:35:38,428 --> 00:35:40,680 and maybe she pulled it back inside somehow. 665 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:42,098 I've got no idea. 666 00:35:42,098 --> 00:35:43,683 But she murdered it while we were sleeping 667 00:35:43,683 --> 00:35:46,102 and scattered its remains all over the floor. 668 00:35:49,064 --> 00:35:51,566 And then two or three weeks later, 669 00:35:51,566 --> 00:35:53,943 I watched it again alone. 670 00:35:53,943 --> 00:35:56,488 And maybe this is in hindsight, 671 00:35:56,488 --> 00:36:00,950 but as I imagined myself walking down the steps the next morning, 672 00:36:00,950 --> 00:36:03,328 I'm feeling a sort of Lynchian dread, 673 00:36:03,328 --> 00:36:05,121 like that guy in "Mulholland Drive" 674 00:36:05,121 --> 00:36:07,999 who's walking back behind Winkie's. 675 00:36:07,999 --> 00:36:11,378 And I come to my desk and on my phone, 676 00:36:11,378 --> 00:36:13,004 there's like 20 new messages 677 00:36:13,004 --> 00:36:16,549 that have just popped in the last hour waiting for me. 678 00:36:16,549 --> 00:36:19,594 My father back in Florida, 679 00:36:19,594 --> 00:36:21,554 he died the night before. 680 00:36:21,554 --> 00:36:24,641 He hadn't been doing well for a while, so it wasn't a shock. 681 00:36:24,641 --> 00:36:28,395 But I don't know, the timing felt really strange. 682 00:36:28,395 --> 00:36:30,522 I don't think I'm going to watch that episode again anytime soon. 683 00:36:30,522 --> 00:36:32,857 I don't want to know what's going to happen. 684 00:36:32,857 --> 00:36:35,735 There's bad juju baked to the bones of that thing. 685 00:36:35,735 --> 00:36:38,738 [ Dramatic music plays] 686 00:36:42,158 --> 00:36:45,078 It is happening again. 687 00:37:04,097 --> 00:37:06,099 ANNOUNCER: Like wildfire in the wheat field, 688 00:37:06,099 --> 00:37:08,268 the fabulous tale of "The Wizard of Oz" 689 00:37:08,268 --> 00:37:12,689 spread from town to city to nation to the entire world. 690 00:37:12,689 --> 00:37:14,607 WATERS: For me, "The Wizard Of OZ" 691 00:37:14,607 --> 00:37:17,819 was the ultimate not just American movie, 692 00:37:17,819 --> 00:37:20,113 movie period that I saw as a child 693 00:37:20,113 --> 00:37:22,449 that made me want to be in show business, 694 00:37:22,449 --> 00:37:25,952 that made me want to create characters, 695 00:37:25,952 --> 00:37:28,955 that made me want to go on adventures 696 00:37:28,955 --> 00:37:31,708 and probably made me take LSD. 697 00:37:31,708 --> 00:37:34,711 [ Mid-tempo music plays ] 698 00:37:42,051 --> 00:37:46,598 I think it was a good influence on me all the way around. 699 00:37:46,598 --> 00:37:49,434 For me, it changed my life when I saw it. 700 00:37:49,476 --> 00:37:53,062 My obsession with it started before television. 701 00:37:53,062 --> 00:37:56,232 My parents took me to see it at the Rex Theatre in Baltimore, 702 00:37:56,232 --> 00:37:58,067 which, oddly enough, 703 00:37:58,067 --> 00:38:01,654 later became the sexploitation nudist camp movie theatre 704 00:38:01,654 --> 00:38:03,823 like 30 years later. 705 00:38:03,823 --> 00:38:06,326 Then the Christmas thing became like the sequel 706 00:38:06,326 --> 00:38:07,869 in my mind as a child. 707 00:38:07,869 --> 00:38:09,412 Every year, we watched it. 708 00:38:09,412 --> 00:38:11,289 I mean, it was a big deal event. 709 00:38:11,289 --> 00:38:13,958 And you always watched it because it didn't come on again. 710 00:38:13,958 --> 00:38:16,211 There was no other way. Nobody could imagine 711 00:38:16,211 --> 00:38:18,004 that you could ever buy a video of something 712 00:38:18,004 --> 00:38:21,049 and watch it whenever you wanted or rewind it. 713 00:38:21,049 --> 00:38:22,926 That's the thing I always thought was kind of against. 714 00:38:22,926 --> 00:38:25,720 You give away the magic trick. 715 00:38:25,720 --> 00:38:27,680 But, you know, the saddest thing I ever heard 716 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,850 was I talked to this young kind of hipster kid, 717 00:38:30,850 --> 00:38:32,393 and we were just talking about movies. 718 00:38:32,393 --> 00:38:33,770 And I said, "Do you like 'The Wizard of 02'?" 719 00:38:33,770 --> 00:38:35,146 And he said, "No, not really. 720 00:38:35,146 --> 00:38:37,899 I mean, it's basically just walking." 721 00:38:37,899 --> 00:38:41,694 I thought, "God, what a blurb." 722 00:38:41,694 --> 00:38:43,488 If a kid watches "The Wizard of Oz" today, 723 00:38:43,488 --> 00:38:45,657 the film completely works. 724 00:38:45,657 --> 00:38:49,035 I think it's the perfect -- like a drug to kids 725 00:38:49,035 --> 00:38:50,411 to get them hooked on movies 726 00:38:50,411 --> 00:38:52,288 for the rest of their young lives. 727 00:38:55,667 --> 00:38:57,502 Well, I don't think that's the only movie 728 00:38:57,502 --> 00:38:59,170 that influenced David Lynch or me, 729 00:38:59,170 --> 00:39:02,131 but certainly he probably -- 730 00:39:02,131 --> 00:39:04,634 it was maybe one of the first movies he saw, too. 731 00:39:04,634 --> 00:39:06,469 And whatever those first movies are -- 732 00:39:06,469 --> 00:39:09,347 The other one for me was "Cinderella," Walt Disney's, 733 00:39:09,347 --> 00:39:11,432 and I love the stepmother in that movie. 734 00:39:11,432 --> 00:39:13,393 And she was the same to me as the witch. 735 00:39:13,393 --> 00:39:16,271 She was the villain, the one you were supposed to hate. 736 00:39:16,271 --> 00:39:18,565 But I was a puppeteer when I was young. 737 00:39:18,565 --> 00:39:19,732 Was David? 738 00:39:19,732 --> 00:39:21,150 Hello. 739 00:39:21,150 --> 00:39:24,028 We're all very happy to be here tonight. 740 00:39:24,028 --> 00:39:26,739 First of all, I'd like to introduce my boys. 741 00:39:26,739 --> 00:39:29,242 This is Chuckle and this is Buster. 742 00:39:29,242 --> 00:39:31,411 And this is Pete. I'm David Lynch. 743 00:39:31,411 --> 00:39:33,329 And this is Bob and this is Dan. 744 00:39:33,329 --> 00:39:35,707 WATERS: Many, many directors are. 745 00:39:35,707 --> 00:39:38,418 And later in life, your actors always say 746 00:39:38,418 --> 00:39:40,753 "We're not your puppets," you know. 747 00:39:40,753 --> 00:39:42,547 Well, yes, you are. 748 00:39:42,547 --> 00:39:45,717 But I wonder if he was, because it seems like many, 749 00:39:45,717 --> 00:39:49,345 many directors were puppet enthusiasts as children, 750 00:39:49,345 --> 00:39:50,805 and they were their actors 751 00:39:50,805 --> 00:39:52,849 and they told them what to do in a way. 752 00:39:52,849 --> 00:39:55,018 It looks like this. And I got it. 753 00:39:55,018 --> 00:39:56,102 -I got it. -Yeah. 754 00:39:56,102 --> 00:39:58,104 And start bouncing up and down. 755 00:39:58,104 --> 00:39:59,355 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 756 00:39:59,355 --> 00:40:01,691 Bounce around and kissing. 757 00:40:01,691 --> 00:40:03,276 Yeah. Okay. 758 00:40:03,276 --> 00:40:05,695 WATERS: So I think it came from that, 759 00:40:05,695 --> 00:40:08,656 that the villains were always better characters. 760 00:40:08,656 --> 00:40:10,033 They had better outfits. 761 00:40:10,033 --> 00:40:12,785 They're the ones you remembered more, in a way. 762 00:40:12,785 --> 00:40:14,913 Captain Hook in "Peter Pan," 763 00:40:14,913 --> 00:40:18,374 I mean, that little girl in "The Bad Seed," Patty McCormack. 764 00:40:18,791 --> 00:40:21,294 These were my childhood playmates. 765 00:40:21,294 --> 00:40:24,505 Give me those shoes back. 766 00:40:24,505 --> 00:40:26,591 Oh, no, I got them shoes hid 767 00:40:26,591 --> 00:40:28,927 where no bother or bee can find. 768 00:40:28,927 --> 00:40:30,845 You better give me those shoes. 769 00:40:30,845 --> 00:40:33,890 They're mine. Give them back to me. 770 00:40:33,890 --> 00:40:35,808 WATERS: I wrote Margaret Hamilton in my life, 771 00:40:35,808 --> 00:40:37,894 and she did send me back an autographed picture 772 00:40:37,894 --> 00:40:39,312 and she always signed her autographs 773 00:40:39,312 --> 00:40:41,606 "WWW Margaret Hamilton," 774 00:40:41,606 --> 00:40:43,274 like the Wicked Witch of the West, 775 00:40:43,274 --> 00:40:45,360 which I prayed she had monogrammed sheets 776 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:47,111 that said that. 777 00:40:47,111 --> 00:40:50,573 What a performance, what a performance. 778 00:40:50,573 --> 00:40:52,742 Who killed my sister? 779 00:40:52,742 --> 00:40:54,577 Who killed the Witch of the East? 780 00:40:54,577 --> 00:40:56,329 Was it you? 781 00:40:56,329 --> 00:40:59,415 WATERS: And she was so much more fun than the good witch 782 00:40:59,415 --> 00:41:01,250 who dressed like she had gone insane 783 00:41:01,250 --> 00:41:03,920 getting ready for the prom. 784 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,798 Most directors can always tell you 785 00:41:06,798 --> 00:41:08,383 one of the first few movies 786 00:41:08,383 --> 00:41:10,843 that obsessed them when they were a kid. 787 00:41:10,843 --> 00:41:15,181 And that is what led them to pick this as a career forever. 788 00:41:15,181 --> 00:41:18,393 "The Wizard of Oz" is still my favourite movie. 789 00:41:18,393 --> 00:41:20,895 Wicked Witch -- I was in drag only once in my life, 790 00:41:20,895 --> 00:41:22,397 and that was as the Wicked Witch. 791 00:41:22,397 --> 00:41:24,107 And I went to a children's birthday party. 792 00:41:24,107 --> 00:41:27,276 You know, I raised a few parents' eyebrows. 793 00:41:27,276 --> 00:41:30,071 WATERS: I think all my films have been influenced. 794 00:41:30,071 --> 00:41:32,281 Oz was Queen Carlotta, maybe. 795 00:41:32,281 --> 00:41:35,201 I think "Desperate Living" had some "Wizard of Oz" in it. 796 00:41:35,201 --> 00:41:37,412 Bring me her broomstick, 797 00:41:37,412 --> 00:41:41,207 and I'll grant your request. 798 00:41:41,207 --> 00:41:42,750 Now, go. 799 00:41:42,750 --> 00:41:47,463 Loyalty to the Queen sometimes results in reward. 800 00:41:47,463 --> 00:41:48,798 The Munchkins were -- 801 00:41:48,798 --> 00:41:51,092 Hey, that was like Mortville, kind of. 802 00:41:51,092 --> 00:41:54,220 "The Wizard of Oz," a special little weird town. 803 00:41:54,220 --> 00:41:56,264 Even Divine was not the Wicked Witch, 804 00:41:56,264 --> 00:41:58,433 but Divine would have hung around with a wicked witch. 805 00:41:58,433 --> 00:42:01,602 They would have gotten along well. 806 00:42:01,602 --> 00:42:03,354 I'm trying to think is there one scene 807 00:42:03,354 --> 00:42:05,690 that was really like "The Wizard of Oz" on purpose? 808 00:42:05,690 --> 00:42:07,859 Like a parody of it? 809 00:42:07,859 --> 00:42:12,488 MAN: ♪ You've got the magic touch ♪ 810 00:42:12,488 --> 00:42:15,199 [Warbling ] 811 00:42:21,122 --> 00:42:23,082 Well, if you could just tell me, if you could -- 812 00:42:23,082 --> 00:42:24,709 Oof! 813 00:42:24,751 --> 00:42:26,085 [ Dramatic music plays] 814 00:42:26,085 --> 00:42:29,088 [ Indistinct singing ] 815 00:42:32,508 --> 00:42:34,260 WATERS: "Dorothy, the Kansas City Pothead" 816 00:42:34,260 --> 00:42:37,805 was a movie I made that never really got made. 817 00:42:37,805 --> 00:42:41,726 Dorothy smoked pot and then went to -- went to Oz, 818 00:42:41,726 --> 00:42:44,020 which was a psychedelic high. 819 00:42:44,020 --> 00:42:47,356 I don't think we ever got any further than that. 820 00:42:47,356 --> 00:42:50,234 The people that are my heroes or heroines 821 00:42:50,234 --> 00:42:53,279 would have been the villains in other people's movies. 822 00:42:53,279 --> 00:42:55,490 And the villains in my movies are usually people 823 00:42:55,490 --> 00:42:58,284 that are more middle of the road and judgmental 824 00:42:58,284 --> 00:43:00,161 and don't mind their own business. 825 00:43:00,161 --> 00:43:03,539 Now, Miss Gulch didn't mind her own business. 826 00:43:03,539 --> 00:43:06,876 I want to see you and your wife right away about Dorothy. 827 00:43:06,876 --> 00:43:09,796 WATERS: I make the same film. The moral is the same. 828 00:43:09,796 --> 00:43:12,006 Mind your business. 829 00:43:12,006 --> 00:43:13,841 Exaggerate what people use against you. 830 00:43:13,841 --> 00:43:15,927 Turn it into a style and win. 831 00:43:15,927 --> 00:43:18,012 All my movies say that. 832 00:43:18,012 --> 00:43:21,766 We find the defendant not guilty of all charges. 833 00:43:21,766 --> 00:43:23,559 WATERS: They're different characters, 834 00:43:23,559 --> 00:43:25,978 but the moral of all my movies is definitely the same. 835 00:43:27,647 --> 00:43:31,651 David might agree with that with his own movies. 836 00:43:31,651 --> 00:43:33,402 I think David and I both have a love 837 00:43:33,402 --> 00:43:37,240 and a hate for the 1950s in America. 838 00:43:37,240 --> 00:43:40,159 I mean, the '50s was a terrible time. 839 00:43:40,159 --> 00:43:42,495 EDNA: Tracy, I have told you about that hair. 840 00:43:42,495 --> 00:43:45,665 All ratted up like a teenage Jezebel. 841 00:43:45,665 --> 00:43:48,501 Oh, Mother, you're so '50s. 842 00:43:48,501 --> 00:43:51,212 WATERS: I mean, it was the most judgmental, 843 00:43:51,212 --> 00:43:53,840 conformist thing ever. 844 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:55,842 And not a one of us is going to start eating 845 00:43:55,842 --> 00:43:58,553 until Laura washes her hands. 846 00:44:00,888 --> 00:44:02,890 Wash your hands. 847 00:44:02,890 --> 00:44:04,517 WATERS: That's why rock and roll exploded. 848 00:44:04,517 --> 00:44:08,437 It was the first way to -- to rebel from all that. 849 00:44:08,437 --> 00:44:11,440 God bless Dwight Eisenhower. 850 00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,360 PRISONERS: God bless Dwight Eisenhower. 851 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,946 God bless Roy Cohn. 852 00:44:16,946 --> 00:44:19,574 PRISONERS: God bless Roy Cohn. 853 00:44:19,574 --> 00:44:22,451 WATERS: So I think David would probably agree with that, 854 00:44:22,451 --> 00:44:24,370 that we grew up with the same music, 855 00:44:24,370 --> 00:44:26,706 the same censorship in movies 856 00:44:26,747 --> 00:44:30,418 that came falling down over the years. 857 00:44:30,418 --> 00:44:32,461 I don't think that America has changed that much. 858 00:44:32,461 --> 00:44:33,963 People still want to go home. 859 00:44:33,963 --> 00:44:36,591 That's why I never left Baltimore. 860 00:44:36,591 --> 00:44:38,092 This city has great style, I think. 861 00:44:38,092 --> 00:44:40,803 It's sort of like white trash chic. 862 00:44:40,803 --> 00:44:43,014 I did stay here because -- 863 00:44:43,014 --> 00:44:45,641 because to me, my real friends were here 864 00:44:45,641 --> 00:44:47,727 and people that didn't care about show business 865 00:44:47,727 --> 00:44:51,397 and -- and we went over the rainbow ourselves here 866 00:44:51,397 --> 00:44:53,691 with -- with my friends when we were young. 867 00:44:53,691 --> 00:44:56,861 And most of those friends, I still have. 868 00:44:56,861 --> 00:44:58,196 MAN: Hey, does that dog have to shit? 869 00:44:58,196 --> 00:44:59,488 [ Laughter] 870 00:44:59,488 --> 00:45:01,574 WATERS: David has gone over the rainbow 871 00:45:01,574 --> 00:45:03,117 from the very first film ever. 872 00:45:03,117 --> 00:45:06,871 He lives in a different reality than you or I do, 873 00:45:06,871 --> 00:45:10,166 and that's quite obvious. 874 00:45:10,166 --> 00:45:12,460 The last TV show he did was -- 875 00:45:12,460 --> 00:45:14,128 was my favourite thing he ever did, 876 00:45:14,128 --> 00:45:17,673 because if there was ever, like, being kidnapped 877 00:45:17,673 --> 00:45:19,634 and taken into a Lynchian world 878 00:45:19,634 --> 00:45:22,261 that you didn't even know where you were, 879 00:45:22,261 --> 00:45:26,432 you were so disoriented that it was like "The Wizard of Oz." 880 00:45:26,432 --> 00:45:31,187 And I couldn't wait each week to go there with him on that show. 881 00:45:31,187 --> 00:45:33,981 Somehow he got that through the Hollywood system. 882 00:45:33,981 --> 00:45:36,192 That is amazing to me. 883 00:45:36,192 --> 00:45:38,152 But from the very first moment 884 00:45:38,152 --> 00:45:41,322 I ever saw a David Lynch film, which was "Eraserhead," 885 00:45:41,322 --> 00:45:44,408 it may have been the first weekend it was ever at Midnight. 886 00:45:44,408 --> 00:45:46,244 And I started raving about it in the press 887 00:45:46,244 --> 00:45:47,870 because it was such an amazing movie. 888 00:45:47,870 --> 00:45:49,455 And of course, it still is. 889 00:45:49,455 --> 00:45:51,290 I've met John Waters many times, 890 00:45:51,290 --> 00:45:54,210 and I always make sure I thank him for that. 891 00:45:54,210 --> 00:45:56,295 WATERS: And that's kind of how we met. 892 00:45:56,295 --> 00:45:58,923 And there is kind of a famous shot of David Lynch 893 00:45:58,923 --> 00:46:01,926 and I meeting out front of Bob's Big Boy. 894 00:46:01,926 --> 00:46:03,803 Have you ever seen that picture? 895 00:46:03,803 --> 00:46:06,347 At that period, David did eat lunch 896 00:46:06,347 --> 00:46:08,891 at Bob Big Boy's, every day, I think. 897 00:46:08,933 --> 00:46:10,434 Can we say you're a creature of habit? 898 00:46:10,434 --> 00:46:13,771 Yes, habit and a daily routine. 899 00:46:13,771 --> 00:46:15,690 And -- 900 00:46:15,690 --> 00:46:19,485 And then when there's some sort of order there, 901 00:46:19,485 --> 00:46:23,990 then you're free to mentally go off any -- any place. 902 00:46:23,990 --> 00:46:26,242 You've got a safe sort of foundation 903 00:46:26,242 --> 00:46:28,119 and a place to spring off from. 904 00:46:28,119 --> 00:46:30,371 One day in Bob's, 905 00:46:30,371 --> 00:46:36,502 I saw a man come in to a counter. 906 00:46:36,502 --> 00:46:41,424 Seeing him came a feeling. 907 00:46:41,424 --> 00:46:46,095 And that's where Frank Booth came from. 908 00:46:46,095 --> 00:46:48,681 Let's fuck! 909 00:46:48,681 --> 00:46:51,559 I'll fuck anything that moves! 910 00:46:51,559 --> 00:46:52,685 [Laughs] 911 00:46:52,685 --> 00:46:54,145 [Tires squeal ] 912 00:46:54,145 --> 00:46:55,396 WATERS: And even though I think our films 913 00:46:55,396 --> 00:46:56,981 are very, very different, 914 00:46:56,981 --> 00:46:59,859 I think that we are certainly kindred spirits 915 00:46:59,859 --> 00:47:01,777 and have the same sense of humour. 916 00:47:01,777 --> 00:47:03,654 Wear! 917 00:47:03,654 --> 00:47:05,740 Your seat belt! 918 00:47:05,740 --> 00:47:07,575 It's the law! 919 00:47:09,118 --> 00:47:11,996 [ Screaming ] 920 00:47:11,996 --> 00:47:16,167 Don't you ever fucking tailgate! 921 00:47:16,167 --> 00:47:18,085 -Ever! -Tell him you won't tailgate. 922 00:47:18,085 --> 00:47:19,587 Evefl 923 00:47:19,587 --> 00:47:22,089 WATERS: My favourite thing that David said is that -- 924 00:47:22,089 --> 00:47:24,884 that he loves making the movie, he loves editing, 925 00:47:24,884 --> 00:47:26,552 he loves thinking it out. 926 00:47:26,552 --> 00:47:29,722 But then it's released and the heartbreak begins. 927 00:47:29,722 --> 00:47:31,849 [Laughs] 928 00:47:31,849 --> 00:47:33,476 What a great line. 929 00:47:33,476 --> 00:47:36,479 I know the feeling. 930 00:47:36,479 --> 00:47:40,441 I would have loved to have met him with Margaret Hamilton 931 00:47:40,441 --> 00:47:41,650 while she was alive. 932 00:47:41,650 --> 00:47:43,652 That would have been the best. 933 00:47:43,652 --> 00:47:46,655 [ Sombre music plays ] 934 00:47:59,627 --> 00:48:02,171 KUSAMA: I was once a struggling artist in New York City 935 00:48:02,171 --> 00:48:04,924 and waited tables at a diner. 936 00:48:04,924 --> 00:48:09,011 David Lynch would come in as a customer. 937 00:48:09,011 --> 00:48:12,765 I was just so fascinated that he always ordered pancakes 938 00:48:12,765 --> 00:48:14,767 and used a lot of maple syrup. 939 00:48:14,767 --> 00:48:17,103 Short stack of griddle cakes, melt butter, maple syrup, 940 00:48:17,103 --> 00:48:18,729 lightly heated, slice of ham. 941 00:48:18,729 --> 00:48:20,439 Nothing beats the taste sensation 942 00:48:20,439 --> 00:48:23,025 when maple syrup collides with ham. 943 00:48:23,025 --> 00:48:25,611 KUSAMA: He's quite handsome, almost a caricature 944 00:48:25,611 --> 00:48:27,988 of Midwestern courtesy and bluntness, 945 00:48:27,988 --> 00:48:31,033 which I think we see in some of his Q&As. 946 00:48:31,033 --> 00:48:32,952 Do you want some more pie? A whole pie? 947 00:48:32,952 --> 00:48:34,370 Yes, I would, Miss Johnson. 948 00:48:34,370 --> 00:48:36,914 And a piece of paper and a pencil. 949 00:48:36,914 --> 00:48:39,041 I plan on writing an epic poem about 950 00:48:39,083 --> 00:48:41,043 this gorgeous pie. 951 00:48:41,043 --> 00:48:43,462 KUSAMA:In 2001 , I went to see "Mulholland Drive" 952 00:48:43,462 --> 00:48:45,548 at the New York Film Festival, 953 00:48:45,548 --> 00:48:47,174 and then Lynch came out at the end 954 00:48:47,174 --> 00:48:49,635 and he spoke about the movie quite elliptically, 955 00:48:49,635 --> 00:48:51,053 as he is won't to do. 956 00:48:51,053 --> 00:48:54,974 No hay band a. 957 00:48:54,974 --> 00:48:58,644 There is no band. 958 00:48:58,644 --> 00:49:00,438 KUSAMA: I remember somebody had asked him, 959 00:49:00,438 --> 00:49:02,523 "What does the film mean?" 960 00:49:02,523 --> 00:49:05,943 And his response was, "Well, I think you know." 961 00:49:05,943 --> 00:49:07,194 And that was it. 962 00:49:07,194 --> 00:49:08,779 I know you hate saying 963 00:49:08,779 --> 00:49:10,489 what things mean in your films, 964 00:49:10,489 --> 00:49:11,866 but am I right in thinking 965 00:49:11,866 --> 00:49:15,411 that that's at least in the right area? 966 00:49:15,411 --> 00:49:17,121 -No. -[ Laughter] 967 00:49:20,416 --> 00:49:22,626 KUSAMA: And then a guy asked, "Can you talk about 968 00:49:22,626 --> 00:49:24,503 your relationship to 'The Wizard of Oz' 969 00:49:24,503 --> 00:49:26,922 in relation to 'Mulholland Drive'?" 970 00:49:26,922 --> 00:49:28,841 And his response was, 971 00:49:28,841 --> 00:49:32,344 "There is not a day that goes by that 972 00:49:32,344 --> 00:49:35,723 I don't think about 'The Wizard of Oz.'" 973 00:49:35,723 --> 00:49:38,476 I will say that it was one of those watershed moments for me 974 00:49:38,476 --> 00:49:41,604 as a filmmaker to understand his sense of humility 975 00:49:41,604 --> 00:49:44,064 in front of another piece of art. 976 00:49:44,064 --> 00:49:46,817 Because he said it with a kind of childlike wonder, 977 00:49:46,817 --> 00:49:50,112 in all of my subsequent viewings of "Mulholland Drive," 978 00:49:50,112 --> 00:49:51,363 I've always thought of it as 979 00:49:51,363 --> 00:49:53,949 a companion piece to "Wizard of Oz." 980 00:49:53,949 --> 00:49:57,495 Part of that has to do with perhaps a left turn away from, 981 00:49:57,495 --> 00:50:01,373 "on-the-nose gestures" of a film like "Wild at Heart" 982 00:50:01,373 --> 00:50:04,043 and something more about its structure. 983 00:50:04,043 --> 00:50:07,963 This idea of the dream within the consciousness of a character 984 00:50:07,963 --> 00:50:10,716 essentially comprising two-thirds of the film, 985 00:50:10,716 --> 00:50:13,385 a dreamscape given narrative life. 986 00:50:13,385 --> 00:50:15,930 "Mulholland Drive" is an exploration 987 00:50:15,930 --> 00:50:18,307 of a character named Betty Wilkes, 988 00:50:18,307 --> 00:50:20,476 a fresh-faced aspiring actor 989 00:50:20,476 --> 00:50:23,187 who comes to Hollywood to make it big. 990 00:50:23,187 --> 00:50:25,397 She immediately meets a cast of characters 991 00:50:25,397 --> 00:50:29,193 who are also searching for something themselves, 992 00:50:29,193 --> 00:50:31,570 and she's immediately thrust into mysteries 993 00:50:31,570 --> 00:50:33,531 beyond her comprehension 994 00:50:33,531 --> 00:50:37,618 and romance that's unexpected and somewhat unruly. 995 00:50:37,618 --> 00:50:40,538 And in the process of investigating this mystery, 996 00:50:40,538 --> 00:50:42,081 we learn about another woman 997 00:50:42,122 --> 00:50:44,542 who looks very much like Betty Wilkes 998 00:50:44,542 --> 00:50:46,794 named Diane Selwyn. 999 00:50:46,794 --> 00:50:50,256 And we learn about a kind of shadow world that she lives in 1000 00:50:50,256 --> 00:50:52,007 that's very much like Betty's, 1001 00:50:52,007 --> 00:50:54,718 but the failed version of Betty's life. 1002 00:50:57,137 --> 00:50:59,014 Camilla. 1003 00:51:02,101 --> 00:51:04,144 You've come back. 1004 00:51:05,187 --> 00:51:07,773 KUSAMA: We're given access to the fantasy and the dreams 1005 00:51:07,773 --> 00:51:10,067 and the hopes of Betty's character. 1006 00:51:10,067 --> 00:51:12,861 And then by pulling the lid off of that, 1007 00:51:12,861 --> 00:51:15,030 we realise that there is a hope for something 1008 00:51:15,030 --> 00:51:18,367 that never happened in the character of Diane Selwyn. 1009 00:51:18,367 --> 00:51:20,286 It's as if Lynch is saying, 1010 00:51:20,286 --> 00:51:22,580 "We're not going to learn as much about this character 1011 00:51:22,580 --> 00:51:25,040 by watching her in her dank Hollywood apartment, 1012 00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:26,500 planning a murder, 1013 00:51:26,500 --> 00:51:29,628 haunted by the odiousness of her own thoughts. 1014 00:51:29,628 --> 00:51:31,630 We're going to learn so much more about her 1015 00:51:31,630 --> 00:51:34,675 seeing her as the best version of herself." 1016 00:51:34,675 --> 00:51:36,510 10 bucks says you're Betty. 1017 00:51:36,510 --> 00:51:39,221 Yes, I am, Mrs. Lenoir. 1018 00:51:39,221 --> 00:51:41,724 KUSAMA: The most capable, the most talented, 1019 00:51:41,724 --> 00:51:43,726 the most hopeful and loving. 1020 00:51:45,936 --> 00:51:49,356 Thanks. 1021 00:51:49,356 --> 00:51:52,610 Diane. 1022 00:51:52,610 --> 00:51:54,153 KUSAMA: And in the process, 1023 00:51:54,153 --> 00:51:56,280 we're going to see Diane's imagination 1024 00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:58,407 of a better version of her girlfriend, 1025 00:51:58,407 --> 00:52:00,951 which is so heartbreaking. 1026 00:52:00,951 --> 00:52:02,620 What's your name? 1027 00:52:02,620 --> 00:52:04,330 KUSAMA: And the way to get to that better version 1028 00:52:04,330 --> 00:52:08,167 of the girlfriend is to strip her of all of her identity. 1029 00:52:08,167 --> 00:52:12,087 Diane Selwyn. Maybe that's my name. 1030 00:52:12,087 --> 00:52:15,341 There's something so deeply moving about this strategy 1031 00:52:15,341 --> 00:52:18,552 because it's saying sometimes we learn more about a character 1032 00:52:18,552 --> 00:52:22,181 not from their reality, but from their dreams. 1033 00:52:22,222 --> 00:52:24,808 COWBOY: Hey, pretty girl. 1034 00:52:24,808 --> 00:52:28,646 Time to wake up. 1035 00:52:28,646 --> 00:52:31,190 KUSAMA: "Mulholland Drive" is an inverse of "Oz," 1036 00:52:31,190 --> 00:52:33,484 in that the home we return our Dorothy to, 1037 00:52:33,484 --> 00:52:35,527 in this case, Diane Selwyn's, 1038 00:52:35,527 --> 00:52:38,530 is not one she wants to return to. 1039 00:52:38,530 --> 00:52:43,369 It's a much darker register of the "Oz" narrative. 1040 00:52:43,369 --> 00:52:45,704 I was so struck watching the movie again 1041 00:52:45,704 --> 00:52:49,124 by how it is such a merciless depiction of Hollywood. 1042 00:52:49,124 --> 00:52:52,336 It seems to be such a personal film for Lynch. 1043 00:52:52,336 --> 00:52:56,131 You feel a sense of deep, almost anticipatory wounding 1044 00:52:56,131 --> 00:52:58,801 in him in his depiction of Hollywood. 1045 00:52:58,801 --> 00:53:00,928 There ain't no way that girl is in my movie. 1046 00:53:00,928 --> 00:53:04,807 [ Shouts indistinctly] 1047 00:53:04,807 --> 00:53:06,141 This is the girl. 1048 00:53:06,141 --> 00:53:09,395 Hey. That girl is not in my film. 1049 00:53:12,398 --> 00:53:14,149 It's no longer your film. 1050 00:53:14,149 --> 00:53:16,151 KUSAMA: And to me, there's nothing more nightmarish 1051 00:53:16,151 --> 00:53:18,195 than the moment that the director says, 1052 00:53:18,195 --> 00:53:19,947 "This is the girl," 1053 00:53:19,947 --> 00:53:22,616 because you understand he has surrendered his agency 1054 00:53:22,616 --> 00:53:26,704 to larger forces as a way to just stay in the game. 1055 00:53:26,704 --> 00:53:28,914 There is almost nothing more brutally truthful 1056 00:53:28,914 --> 00:53:31,500 about the process of making movies in Hollywood 1057 00:53:31,500 --> 00:53:33,043 than that moment. 1058 00:53:33,043 --> 00:53:36,964 Might as well be a documentary as far as I'm concerned. 1059 00:53:36,964 --> 00:53:39,550 When you don't have final cut, 1060 00:53:39,550 --> 00:53:42,177 total creative freedom, 1061 00:53:42,177 --> 00:53:46,140 you stand to die the death. 1062 00:53:46,140 --> 00:53:48,642 Dying the death. 1063 00:53:48,642 --> 00:53:53,188 And died, I did. 1064 00:53:53,188 --> 00:53:55,774 KUSAMA: I just think there's so many things in Lynch's work 1065 00:53:55,774 --> 00:53:57,860 that are speaking back to "Oz," 1066 00:53:57,860 --> 00:54:00,863 and they show up so profoundly in this film, 1067 00:54:00,863 --> 00:54:03,866 like Rebecca del Rio lip-syncing the Spanish version 1068 00:54:03,866 --> 00:54:06,326 of Roy Orbison's "Crying." 1069 00:54:06,326 --> 00:54:10,372 It's like hearing Judy Garland's incredible recorded real voice 1070 00:54:10,372 --> 00:54:14,543 lip-syncing to herself singing "Over the Rainbow." 1071 00:54:14,543 --> 00:54:16,295 It's foundational in "Oz," 1072 00:54:16,295 --> 00:54:18,464 but it's also foundational in Lynch 1073 00:54:18,464 --> 00:54:20,841 to watch characters lip-synch. 1074 00:54:20,841 --> 00:54:23,761 I just feel that as a kid, he must have been aware 1075 00:54:23,761 --> 00:54:26,513 that Garland was moving her mouth to a recording 1076 00:54:26,513 --> 00:54:28,807 of her own voice. 1077 00:54:28,807 --> 00:54:30,726 The drama and the uncanny weirdness 1078 00:54:30,726 --> 00:54:32,811 of that Rebecca del Rio performance, 1079 00:54:32,811 --> 00:54:34,521 that's all "Oz." 1080 00:54:34,521 --> 00:54:37,691 The blue-haired lady, that's all "Oz." 1081 00:54:37,691 --> 00:54:40,360 There's a couple of extraordinary moments in "Oz" 1082 00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:43,071 where you just get close-ups of the Witch's face, 1083 00:54:43,071 --> 00:54:45,908 of the Tin Man, and the Cowardly Lion, 1084 00:54:45,908 --> 00:54:49,369 where you really see the artifice of the makeup. 1085 00:54:49,369 --> 00:54:51,455 When Lynch plays with those gestures, 1086 00:54:51,455 --> 00:54:52,998 I think they are intentional. 1087 00:54:52,998 --> 00:54:55,834 Thinking about movies like "Fire Walk with Me," 1088 00:54:55,834 --> 00:54:58,879 where Lynch will do something so simple as Laura Palmer 1089 00:54:58,879 --> 00:55:02,257 talking to her old boyfriend, and he does a hard cut to her 1090 00:55:02,257 --> 00:55:04,551 wearing black lipstick and laughing 1091 00:55:04,551 --> 00:55:08,806 and then cuts out of it, it is so scary, so shocking. 1092 00:55:08,806 --> 00:55:11,225 That kind of simple makeup gesture 1093 00:55:11,225 --> 00:55:14,728 truly going back to the origins of theatre. 1094 00:55:14,728 --> 00:55:16,897 He's looking back at the green-faced witch 1095 00:55:16,897 --> 00:55:19,983 when he puts that black lipstick on Laura Palmer. 1096 00:55:19,983 --> 00:55:22,152 And I think the same is true with the man 1097 00:55:22,152 --> 00:55:24,154 who I believe is actually a woman 1098 00:55:24,154 --> 00:55:27,449 behind Winkie's in "Mulholland Drive." 1099 00:55:27,449 --> 00:55:29,827 It's a gesture of theatrical artifice, 1100 00:55:29,827 --> 00:55:32,246 but also something emotionally more true 1101 00:55:32,246 --> 00:55:33,747 than just seeing a guy back there 1102 00:55:33,747 --> 00:55:36,458 roasting hot dogs or squirrels. 1103 00:55:36,458 --> 00:55:39,753 That black makeup with the red-ringed eyes. 1104 00:55:39,753 --> 00:55:43,966 It's such a strong, strange, deeply bold choice. 1105 00:55:43,966 --> 00:55:46,468 And I feel like that kind of choice is directly influenced 1106 00:55:46,468 --> 00:55:48,095 by some of the wildness 1107 00:55:48,095 --> 00:55:51,306 that we've come to take for granted in "Oz." 1108 00:55:51,306 --> 00:55:53,308 What I think is perhaps a through line 1109 00:55:53,308 --> 00:55:56,144 between "Oz" and the films Lynch has made 1110 00:55:56,144 --> 00:55:58,522 is this kind of unconscious courage 1111 00:55:58,522 --> 00:56:00,065 that the character is willing 1112 00:56:00,065 --> 00:56:03,068 to keep opening doors they shouldn't be opening, 1113 00:56:03,068 --> 00:56:05,863 to keep going to addresses they shouldn't go, 1114 00:56:05,863 --> 00:56:09,867 to keep spying on those they should not spy on. 1115 00:56:09,867 --> 00:56:12,160 They invite chaos into their life 1116 00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:14,204 because they have to know. 1117 00:56:14,204 --> 00:56:15,914 I'm involved in a mystery. 1118 00:56:15,914 --> 00:56:18,333 I'm in the middle of a mystery. 1119 00:56:18,333 --> 00:56:21,545 And it's all secret. 1120 00:56:21,545 --> 00:56:24,631 KUSAMA: He applies the quotidian narrative trope of the detective 1121 00:56:24,631 --> 00:56:26,425 to many of his films, 1122 00:56:26,425 --> 00:56:30,095 characters who are detectives of metaphysical mysteries, 1123 00:56:30,095 --> 00:56:35,058 cosmic mysteries, sometimes to their great peril or horror. 1124 00:56:35,058 --> 00:56:39,229 Gordon! Gordon! 1125 00:56:39,229 --> 00:56:41,398 KUSAMA: And if you think about Dorothy and Oz, 1126 00:56:41,398 --> 00:56:45,527 she's a child detective with her dog and a picnic basket. 1127 00:56:45,527 --> 00:56:48,363 She's being asked to go on this insane journey 1128 00:56:48,363 --> 00:56:52,367 and trust to follow that yellow brick road. 1129 00:56:52,743 --> 00:56:55,913 Part of the irony to me when I think about "The Wizard of Oz" 1130 00:56:55,913 --> 00:56:58,290 is I think of it as forever coupled, of course, 1131 00:56:58,290 --> 00:57:00,250 with "Gone With the Wind," 1132 00:57:00,250 --> 00:57:02,461 these two completely foundational works 1133 00:57:02,461 --> 00:57:05,797 made by the same person and released in the same year. 1134 00:57:05,797 --> 00:57:09,468 It's a strange statement about the American unconscious. 1135 00:57:09,468 --> 00:57:12,262 Home. 1136 00:57:12,262 --> 00:57:14,389 I'll go home. 1137 00:57:14,389 --> 00:57:17,017 And I'll think of some way to get him back. 1138 00:57:18,894 --> 00:57:20,938 KUSAMA: And when you look at Lynch's films, 1139 00:57:20,938 --> 00:57:23,774 which are so driven by a law of the unconscious, 1140 00:57:23,774 --> 00:57:27,069 why wouldn't "Oz" be the foundational text for him? 1141 00:57:27,069 --> 00:57:28,654 I do wonder if he would have found his way 1142 00:57:28,654 --> 00:57:30,280 towards some version 1143 00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:33,617 of what is his inimitable style over time anyway 1144 00:57:33,617 --> 00:57:36,745 but that "Oz" gave him permission to think so big, 1145 00:57:36,745 --> 00:57:39,414 to think so wildly and off the map. 1146 00:57:39,414 --> 00:57:42,042 I don't think it's so unusual to find new inspiration 1147 00:57:42,042 --> 00:57:45,087 or comforting lessons in a single work. 1148 00:57:45,087 --> 00:57:47,464 In the same way that we might consult the Bible, 1149 00:57:47,464 --> 00:57:50,342 I think "Oz" has served as some kind of foundational text 1150 00:57:50,342 --> 00:57:51,385 for Lynch. 1151 00:57:51,385 --> 00:57:53,261 I really do. 1152 00:57:53,261 --> 00:57:57,432 His body of work is braided with gestures and moments in "Oz," 1153 00:57:57,432 --> 00:58:00,519 which have burned their way into Lynch's creative mind. 1154 00:58:02,646 --> 00:58:06,817 My sense is that his work is governed by irrationality 1155 00:58:06,817 --> 00:58:09,528 and that he arrives at some of his best ideas 1156 00:58:09,528 --> 00:58:11,363 through a trip into his unconscious 1157 00:58:11,363 --> 00:58:13,573 as opposed to his conscious mind. 1158 00:58:17,869 --> 00:58:20,372 In some of his work, he's proving the theorem 1159 00:58:20,372 --> 00:58:22,249 that once we see certain works 1160 00:58:22,249 --> 00:58:24,793 and once certain images and story passages 1161 00:58:24,793 --> 00:58:27,421 and characters are burned into our brain, 1162 00:58:27,421 --> 00:58:29,172 there is no unseeing. 1163 00:58:29,172 --> 00:58:32,968 And somehow that work has landed in our DNA. 1164 00:58:32,968 --> 00:58:36,722 And for him, there's just a lot more of "Oz" in his DNA 1165 00:58:36,722 --> 00:58:39,099 than there is in another filmmaker. 1166 00:58:39,099 --> 00:58:40,684 There are so many gestures that I wonder 1167 00:58:40,726 --> 00:58:42,602 if Lynch himself would say, 1168 00:58:42,602 --> 00:58:45,856 "I love to watch people singing lip-synch songs," for instance, 1169 00:58:45,856 --> 00:58:48,942 which happens in at least every other one of his movies 1170 00:58:48,942 --> 00:58:51,570 and sometimes within his movies multiple times 1171 00:58:51,570 --> 00:58:54,781 as in "Mulho||and Drive," and always in front of curtains. 1172 00:58:54,781 --> 00:59:01,747 ♪ And I'll see you ♪ 1173 00:59:01,747 --> 00:59:06,251 ♪ And you see me ♪ 1174 00:59:06,251 --> 00:59:08,879 ♪ And I'll see you ♪ 1175 00:59:12,090 --> 00:59:15,218 KUSAMA: I just wonder if that's his dream of "The Wizard of Oz." 1176 00:59:15,218 --> 00:59:16,720 Do you know what I mean? 1177 00:59:19,431 --> 00:59:21,016 Like in his dream life, 1178 00:59:21,016 --> 00:59:23,518 that's how "The Wizard of Oz" has landed, 1179 00:59:23,518 --> 00:59:27,064 as a Dorothy in front of curtains, as a torch singer, 1180 00:59:27,064 --> 00:59:30,609 not a 12-year-old farm girl in a gingham dress. 1181 00:59:30,609 --> 00:59:35,280 WOMAN: ♪ ...in velvet were I ♪ 1182 00:59:36,656 --> 00:59:45,874 ♪ Somewhere over the rainbow ♪ 1183 00:59:45,874 --> 00:59:48,794 KUSAMA: But part of what I think is so juicy about this idea 1184 00:59:48,794 --> 00:59:51,088 that he is so influenced by the film 1185 00:59:51,088 --> 00:59:54,174 is the meta story beyond "The Wizard of Oz." 1186 00:59:54,174 --> 00:59:56,301 It's the story of Judy Garland. 1187 00:59:56,301 --> 00:59:58,303 Her brilliance, her greatness. 1188 00:59:58,303 --> 01:00:00,388 The deep betrayal that she experienced 1189 01:00:00,388 --> 01:00:02,432 as a genius in Hollywood. 1190 01:00:02,432 --> 01:00:06,311 The tragedy of her life, the wreckage of her life. 1191 01:00:06,311 --> 01:00:11,066 You don't know what it's like to watch somebody you love 1192 01:00:11,066 --> 01:00:14,027 just crumble away bit by bit, 1193 01:00:14,027 --> 01:00:17,823 day by day, in front of your eyes. 1194 01:00:17,823 --> 01:00:20,283 KUSAMA: I think that is as influential to Lynch 1195 01:00:20,283 --> 01:00:22,577 -as the film itself. -Good night, baby. 1196 01:00:22,577 --> 01:00:25,914 KUSAMA: It's the story outside of the story. 1197 01:00:25,914 --> 01:00:28,500 And that is so much Lynch to me, 1198 01:00:28,500 --> 01:00:30,043 that he's always telling the story 1199 01:00:30,043 --> 01:00:33,088 outside of the story and sort of saying, 1200 01:00:33,088 --> 01:00:36,341 "But it gets bigger. It expands." 1201 01:00:39,010 --> 01:00:41,471 And "Mulholland Drive" to me is one of those movies 1202 01:00:41,471 --> 01:00:43,431 where he completely sticks the landing 1203 01:00:43,431 --> 01:00:45,016 in terms of proposing 1204 01:00:45,016 --> 01:00:48,019 a world of great possibilities and great mystery 1205 01:00:48,019 --> 01:00:52,399 and then actually showing it to us the way that "Oz" does. 1206 01:00:52,399 --> 01:00:55,694 -Howdy. -Howdy to you. 1207 01:00:55,694 --> 01:00:56,903 KUSAMA: The scene that stands out for me 1208 01:00:56,903 --> 01:00:58,697 as it relates to Dorothy and "Oz" 1209 01:00:58,697 --> 01:01:01,199 is the masterful scene of Betty auditioning. 1210 01:01:01,199 --> 01:01:04,411 First watching her play the scene with the Rita character, 1211 01:01:04,411 --> 01:01:08,123 reading the lines horribly and being clearly not an actor, 1212 01:01:08,123 --> 01:01:09,916 which is its own sort of wish fulfilment 1213 01:01:09,916 --> 01:01:11,376 on Diane Selwyn's part. 1214 01:01:11,376 --> 01:01:13,170 So get out of here before -- 1215 01:01:15,547 --> 01:01:16,548 B-Before what? 1216 01:01:16,548 --> 01:01:20,135 Before I kill you. 1217 01:01:20,135 --> 01:01:22,304 Then they'd put you in jail. 1218 01:01:23,638 --> 01:01:26,141 [Laughs] 1219 01:01:26,141 --> 01:01:28,059 KUSAMA: There's something so inspirational to me 1220 01:01:28,059 --> 01:01:29,728 about watching her transformation 1221 01:01:29,728 --> 01:01:31,062 in that audition scene 1222 01:01:31,062 --> 01:01:33,565 and playing the character so differently. 1223 01:01:33,565 --> 01:01:35,817 Get out of here before... 1224 01:01:35,817 --> 01:01:38,195 KUSAMA: Reinterpreting the scene, 1225 01:01:38,195 --> 01:01:41,198 giving us another window into what that scene could be. 1226 01:01:41,198 --> 01:01:43,742 Before what? 1227 01:01:43,742 --> 01:01:45,952 KUSAMA: This is like the crystallization to me 1228 01:01:45,952 --> 01:01:48,121 of Lynch's work in a nutshell, 1229 01:01:48,121 --> 01:01:51,124 which is this idea of multiple realities, 1230 01:01:51,124 --> 01:01:54,127 but also multiple interpretations as the rule, 1231 01:01:54,127 --> 01:01:55,795 not the exception. 1232 01:01:55,795 --> 01:01:58,215 A multiplicity of possibilities. 1233 01:01:58,215 --> 01:02:01,134 [ Breathing heavily ] 1234 01:02:01,134 --> 01:02:05,847 Before I kill you. 1235 01:02:05,847 --> 01:02:07,933 KUSAMA: It's thrilling to see her become an actor 1236 01:02:07,933 --> 01:02:10,101 we had no idea she could be 1237 01:02:10,101 --> 01:02:13,647 after watching a kind of meta performance by Naomi Watts 1238 01:02:13,647 --> 01:02:16,858 that's almost frustratingly naive and golly gee, 1239 01:02:16,858 --> 01:02:19,402 gee whiz in a way that makes it hard to be 1240 01:02:19,402 --> 01:02:23,031 in a real kind of relationship to her as a character. 1241 01:02:23,031 --> 01:02:26,117 And then to see this unexpected complexity -- 1242 01:02:26,117 --> 01:02:30,288 that to me felt like a central instinct in Lynch's work. 1243 01:02:30,288 --> 01:02:33,708 To say that we quite literally contain multitudes. 1244 01:02:33,708 --> 01:02:35,627 And there is so much more to all of us 1245 01:02:35,627 --> 01:02:37,837 than we give ourselves credit for. 1246 01:02:37,837 --> 01:02:40,215 And part of how I think that relates to "Oz" 1247 01:02:40,215 --> 01:02:43,593 are those moments of Dorothy having to summon the courage, 1248 01:02:43,593 --> 01:02:46,596 the abject despair of never getting home, 1249 01:02:46,596 --> 01:02:48,682 having to be present in Oz, 1250 01:02:48,682 --> 01:02:51,768 even though she may never leave Oz. 1251 01:02:51,768 --> 01:02:53,520 I'm frightened. 1252 01:02:53,520 --> 01:02:58,024 I'm frightened, Auntie Em. I'm frightened. 1253 01:02:58,024 --> 01:03:00,527 KUSAMA: And at least she has the Tin Man and Scarecrow 1254 01:03:00,527 --> 01:03:03,071 and the Cowardly Lion as friends. 1255 01:03:03,071 --> 01:03:05,824 There's something about that journey that is so unexpected 1256 01:03:05,824 --> 01:03:10,245 that she becomes such a hero, this little girl, Dorothy Gale. 1257 01:03:10,245 --> 01:03:12,455 But I just feel like that must be something that, 1258 01:03:12,455 --> 01:03:16,501 in the best way, infected a young David Lynch's mind 1259 01:03:16,501 --> 01:03:20,338 and allowed him or inspired him to create characters 1260 01:03:20,338 --> 01:03:22,757 with as much possibility in them. 1261 01:03:22,757 --> 01:03:25,468 Come on, it'll be just like in the movies. 1262 01:03:25,468 --> 01:03:28,096 I'll pretend to be someone else. 1263 01:03:28,096 --> 01:03:30,056 KUSAMA: As much as "Mulholland Drive" devastated me 1264 01:03:30,056 --> 01:03:31,349 when I first saw it, 1265 01:03:31,349 --> 01:03:32,976 and as much as it frightened me -- 1266 01:03:32,976 --> 01:03:35,770 like, to my core, that movie shook me -- 1267 01:03:35,770 --> 01:03:38,356 I now see a tremendous amount of hope in it 1268 01:03:38,356 --> 01:03:41,443 because I feel like Lynch is giving us, the audience, 1269 01:03:41,443 --> 01:03:44,654 access to the best versions of those characters. 1270 01:03:44,654 --> 01:03:46,906 The most interesting. The most inspiring. 1271 01:03:46,906 --> 01:03:48,742 The most hopeful. 1272 01:03:48,742 --> 01:03:51,786 You look like someone else. 1273 01:03:51,786 --> 01:03:54,122 KUSAMA: He's actually kind of an optimist to me. 1274 01:03:54,122 --> 01:03:56,333 And that movie proves it in my mind. 1275 01:03:56,333 --> 01:03:58,126 As dark as it is, 1276 01:03:58,126 --> 01:04:01,087 I see it as a very optimistic film. 1277 01:04:01,087 --> 01:04:03,798 I really think he identifies with Dorothy. 1278 01:04:03,798 --> 01:04:06,760 But who knows? He might be somebody who says, 1279 01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:09,262 "And I have the witch in me, too. 1280 01:04:09,262 --> 01:04:10,847 And I have the Cowardly Lion. 1281 01:04:10,847 --> 01:04:13,600 And I have the sham wizard." 1282 01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:16,728 I think he has all of those characters in him. 1283 01:04:16,728 --> 01:04:19,105 We all do, I think is what he's saying. 1284 01:04:19,105 --> 01:04:20,982 We have all of them in us. 1285 01:04:28,114 --> 01:04:31,076 [ Down-tempo music plays ] 1286 01:04:40,752 --> 01:04:42,295 BENSON: There are plenty of movies that follow 1287 01:04:42,295 --> 01:04:45,507 the Hero's Journey as outlined by Joseph Campbell, 1288 01:04:45,507 --> 01:04:47,509 but a number of them more specifically 1289 01:04:47,509 --> 01:04:49,010 seem to follow the formula 1290 01:04:49,010 --> 01:04:51,763 and the vernacular of "The Wizard of Oz." 1291 01:04:57,018 --> 01:04:59,729 I'm melting! Melting! 1292 01:04:59,729 --> 01:05:02,857 Shrieks ] 1293 01:05:02,857 --> 01:05:07,362 I don't care about money. I'm pulling back the curtain. 1294 01:05:07,362 --> 01:05:09,114 I want to meet the wizard. 1295 01:05:09,114 --> 01:05:11,449 I want your dog. 1296 01:05:11,449 --> 01:05:14,327 [Whines] 1297 01:05:14,327 --> 01:05:15,870 Barney? 1298 01:05:15,870 --> 01:05:18,498 Give him to me. 1299 01:05:18,498 --> 01:05:20,500 BENSON: That film touches almost every single genre 1300 01:05:20,500 --> 01:05:21,501 we can think of. 1301 01:05:21,501 --> 01:05:24,170 It has adventure... 1302 01:05:24,170 --> 01:05:26,256 Seize them! 1303 01:05:26,256 --> 01:05:27,882 BENSON: ...musical... 1304 01:05:27,882 --> 01:05:30,760 [ Upbeat music plays ] 1305 01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:33,304 ...comedy... 1306 01:05:33,304 --> 01:05:35,432 Oh! Oh! 1307 01:05:35,432 --> 01:05:37,267 BENSON: ...drama... 1308 01:05:37,267 --> 01:05:40,562 [ Dramatic music plays] 1309 01:05:40,562 --> 01:05:42,272 ...science fiction... 1310 01:05:42,272 --> 01:05:44,649 [ Dramatic music plays] 1311 01:05:44,649 --> 01:05:46,359 ...even horror. 1312 01:05:46,359 --> 01:05:49,737 -[ Flying monkeys hooting ] -Help, help, help! 1313 01:05:49,737 --> 01:05:52,699 BENSON: Take "The Big Leb0wski," 1314 01:05:52,699 --> 01:05:55,452 which is this extraordinarily "Wizard of Oz"-ian tale. 1315 01:05:55,452 --> 01:05:58,538 It's a comedy and it's a stoner comedy. 1316 01:05:58,538 --> 01:06:02,625 Here you have an unwilling protagonist like Dorothy 1317 01:06:02,625 --> 01:06:06,045 swept up in a whirlwind that he doesn't understand... 1318 01:06:06,045 --> 01:06:08,631 Where's the money, Lebowski? 1319 01:06:08,631 --> 01:06:10,884 BENSON: ...into a different world that is so much deeper 1320 01:06:10,884 --> 01:06:14,721 and darker than his relatively simple, pedestrian existence. 1321 01:06:14,721 --> 01:06:16,931 And he meets a cast of magical characters 1322 01:06:16,931 --> 01:06:19,767 that give him secret knowledge that, interestingly, 1323 01:06:19,767 --> 01:06:22,312 a lot of them had all along inside themselves. 1324 01:06:22,312 --> 01:06:24,189 Sometimes you eat the bar and... 1325 01:06:24,189 --> 01:06:27,275 Much obliged. 1326 01:06:27,275 --> 01:06:31,821 ...sometimes the bar, well, he eats you. 1327 01:06:32,614 --> 01:06:35,783 MOORHEAD: And at the other end of the genre spectrum, 1328 01:06:35,783 --> 01:06:38,161 we've got films in the realm of sci-fi and horror 1329 01:06:38,161 --> 01:06:40,955 and dark fantasy, movies like "Suspiria," 1330 01:06:40,955 --> 01:06:43,833 which actually shares a lot with "The Wizard of Oz." 1331 01:06:43,833 --> 01:06:45,293 Here we have a young woman going on a journey 1332 01:06:45,293 --> 01:06:50,381 into a surreal, bizarre, even Technicolor world, 1333 01:06:50,381 --> 01:06:52,050 meeting several people along the way 1334 01:06:52,050 --> 01:06:54,260 who will shape her for the rest of her life. 1335 01:06:54,260 --> 01:06:57,263 [ Mystical music plays] 1336 01:06:59,974 --> 01:07:01,935 Guillermo del Toro's "Pan's Labyrinth" 1337 01:07:01,935 --> 01:07:03,770 and "The Devil's Backbone" 1338 01:07:03,770 --> 01:07:06,606 also share a lot of similarities with "The Wizard of Oz." 1339 01:07:06,606 --> 01:07:09,651 [ Speaking Spanish ] 1340 01:07:20,245 --> 01:07:21,538 MOORHEAD: Here we have young people 1341 01:07:21,538 --> 01:07:23,915 going into these dreamlike scenarios, 1342 01:07:23,915 --> 01:07:26,751 meeting a series of interesting entities that shape them, 1343 01:07:26,751 --> 01:07:29,671 and coming out on the other side changed in some way. 1344 01:07:29,671 --> 01:07:32,674 [ Speaking Spanish ] 1345 01:07:38,346 --> 01:07:39,889 BENSON: Martin Scorsese's "After Hours" 1346 01:07:39,889 --> 01:07:41,683 feels like "The Wizard of Oz." 1347 01:07:41,683 --> 01:07:42,892 Would you just give me a break? 1348 01:07:42,892 --> 01:07:44,394 I really just want to go home. 1349 01:07:44,394 --> 01:07:46,020 I've got to get over that bar, 1350 01:07:46,020 --> 01:07:48,314 get my keys so I can get home. 1351 01:07:48,314 --> 01:07:49,857 Where do you live? 1352 01:07:49,857 --> 01:07:52,569 Can you take me -- Can you take me home? 1353 01:07:52,569 --> 01:07:54,821 BENSON: And "Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore" 1354 01:07:54,821 --> 01:07:57,198 is "The Wizard of Oz" in so many ways. 1355 01:07:57,198 --> 01:08:00,118 We open on her sepia-toned childhood in Monterey, 1356 01:08:00,118 --> 01:08:02,954 and the entire movie is about going back home. 1357 01:08:02,954 --> 01:08:04,914 She eventually decides to stay in Tucson, 1358 01:08:04,914 --> 01:08:06,666 but the final shot tells us 1359 01:08:06,666 --> 01:08:08,793 she found her new home, so she is home. 1360 01:08:08,793 --> 01:08:11,588 Even a movie like "Apocalypse Now" 1361 01:08:11,588 --> 01:08:14,549 has similarities to "The Wizard of Oz." 1362 01:08:14,549 --> 01:08:16,551 But there's no home in "Apocalypse Now." 1363 01:08:16,551 --> 01:08:18,678 -I mean, it starts in... -WILLARD: Saigon. 1364 01:08:20,388 --> 01:08:23,808 Shit. 1365 01:08:23,808 --> 01:08:26,686 I'm still only in Saigon. 1366 01:08:26,686 --> 01:08:28,271 BENSON: And he really doesn't want to be there. 1367 01:08:28,271 --> 01:08:32,567 So in a sense, he's started in Oz after the tornado. 1368 01:08:32,567 --> 01:08:34,861 But he goes on a mystical, psychedelic journey 1369 01:08:34,861 --> 01:08:36,946 in a foreign land 1370 01:08:36,946 --> 01:08:38,656 meeting a whole bunch of strange people 1371 01:08:38,656 --> 01:08:40,158 that help him along the way... 1372 01:08:44,370 --> 01:08:47,874 ...in order to find someone who is basically a wizard. 1373 01:08:47,874 --> 01:08:51,836 Could we, uh, talk to Colonel Kurtz? 1374 01:08:51,836 --> 01:08:56,090 Hey, man, you don't -- you don't talk to the Colonel. 1375 01:08:56,090 --> 01:08:58,343 Well -- Well, you listen to him. 1376 01:08:58,343 --> 01:09:00,303 BENSON: There's this monolithic, powerful, 1377 01:09:00,303 --> 01:09:01,763 all-knowing Colonel Kurtz 1378 01:09:01,763 --> 01:09:05,391 that everyone speaks about with reverence and fear. 1379 01:09:05,391 --> 01:09:08,269 And he turns out to be both the wizard and the witch. 1380 01:09:10,688 --> 01:09:15,193 And then there's David Lynch, who is by far the king 1381 01:09:15,193 --> 01:09:18,946 of weaving the visual and auditory language, 1382 01:09:18,946 --> 01:09:21,783 the thematic and story language of "The Wizard of Oz" 1383 01:09:21,783 --> 01:09:23,951 into his own work. 1384 01:09:23,951 --> 01:09:28,831 Oh, I had the strangest dream. 1385 01:09:31,668 --> 01:09:33,878 You were there. 1386 01:09:33,878 --> 01:09:38,007 And you, and you. 1387 01:09:38,007 --> 01:09:40,843 MOORHEAD: Taking "Twin Peaks" season three, for example, 1388 01:09:40,843 --> 01:09:44,472 he has some spectacular, very modern visual effects, 1389 01:09:44,472 --> 01:09:46,474 but he also uses a lot of the same techniques 1390 01:09:46,474 --> 01:09:48,559 used in "The Wizard of Oz." 1391 01:09:48,559 --> 01:09:52,188 Old-school opacity transitioning that no one uses anymore 1392 01:09:52,230 --> 01:09:55,108 unless you were trying to make it look like 1393 01:09:55,108 --> 01:09:57,944 it was actually made in the 1950s. 1394 01:09:57,944 --> 01:10:00,488 He knows he's choosing an old-school effect. 1395 01:10:00,488 --> 01:10:04,659 This is David Lynch showing us where the smoke machine is. 1396 01:10:04,659 --> 01:10:06,911 He is the wizard. 1397 01:10:06,911 --> 01:10:11,374 Why didn't you want to talk about Judy? 1398 01:10:11,374 --> 01:10:13,418 Who is Judy? 1399 01:10:13,418 --> 01:10:17,755 Does Judy want something from me? 1400 01:10:17,755 --> 01:10:21,551 JEFFRIES: Why don't you ask Judy yourself? 1401 01:10:21,551 --> 01:10:24,429 Let me write it down for you. 1402 01:10:27,098 --> 01:10:28,850 MOORHEAD: You could say that "The Wizard of Oz" 1403 01:10:28,850 --> 01:10:30,935 has been a more powerful tool for Lynch 1404 01:10:30,935 --> 01:10:33,563 in making populist surrealist entertainment 1405 01:10:33,563 --> 01:10:35,481 than Jesus Christ has been 1406 01:10:35,481 --> 01:10:37,567 for other surrealist filmmakers 1407 01:10:37,567 --> 01:10:40,069 like Jo do row sky or Bufiuel. 1408 01:10:40,069 --> 01:10:43,698 [ Screaming ] 1409 01:10:43,698 --> 01:10:46,701 [ Dramatic music plays] 1410 01:10:55,710 --> 01:10:57,545 MOORHEAD: But he is way too gifted of an artist 1411 01:10:57,545 --> 01:11:00,506 and a filmmaker to just regurgitate "The Wizard of Oz." 1412 01:11:00,506 --> 01:11:03,217 What he's doing is he's taking what we all know about it, 1413 01:11:03,217 --> 01:11:05,720 and he's breaking it down into its component parts 1414 01:11:05,720 --> 01:11:09,724 and remixing them either buried deep down beneath in visuals 1415 01:11:09,724 --> 01:11:12,685 and themes and motifs in basically all of his movies 1416 01:11:12,685 --> 01:11:15,521 or right at the surface in "Wild at Heart." 1417 01:11:15,521 --> 01:11:18,024 Perhaps you might even picture 1418 01:11:18,024 --> 01:11:22,403 Toto from "The Wizard of Oz." 1419 01:11:22,403 --> 01:11:26,324 In my mind, it hon ours this great film, 1420 01:11:26,324 --> 01:11:30,203 "The Wizard of Oz," which is a film 1421 01:11:30,203 --> 01:11:34,874 that's caused people to dream now for decades. 1422 01:11:34,874 --> 01:11:37,293 And there's something about "The Wizard of Oz" 1423 01:11:37,293 --> 01:11:40,046 that's cosmic. 1424 01:11:40,046 --> 01:11:44,967 And it talks to human beings 1425 01:11:44,967 --> 01:11:48,179 in a deep way. 1426 01:11:48,179 --> 01:11:50,223 MOORHEAD: What's interesting about "Wild at Heart" is that 1427 01:11:50,223 --> 01:11:52,767 "The Wizard of Oz" exists in the canon 1428 01:11:52,767 --> 01:11:56,813 and the mythology of its world. 1429 01:11:56,813 --> 01:11:58,481 It's too bad he couldn't... 1430 01:12:00,942 --> 01:12:03,444 ...visit that old Wizard of Oz and... 1431 01:12:06,155 --> 01:12:08,199 ...hear some good advice. 1432 01:12:08,199 --> 01:12:12,620 There are no Munchkins in the movie now, huh? 1433 01:12:12,620 --> 01:12:16,582 Yeah. There was a Munchkin. 1434 01:12:16,582 --> 01:12:19,168 There was a Munchkin. 1435 01:12:19,168 --> 01:12:20,795 MOORHEAD: The characters in "Wild at Heart" 1436 01:12:20,795 --> 01:12:23,965 have seen the movie "The Wizard of Oz." 1437 01:12:23,965 --> 01:12:27,802 You ever think something 1438 01:12:27,802 --> 01:12:30,429 and hear a wind 1439 01:12:30,429 --> 01:12:32,557 and see the Wicked Witch of the East 1440 01:12:32,557 --> 01:12:34,475 coming flying in? 1441 01:12:36,477 --> 01:12:38,938 MOORHEAD: And they use it as the ideal of their own lives 1442 01:12:38,938 --> 01:12:40,565 that they can never get. 1443 01:12:40,565 --> 01:12:43,150 SAILOR: That kind of money 1444 01:12:43,150 --> 01:12:47,989 would get us a long way down that yellow brick road. 1445 01:12:47,989 --> 01:12:50,783 Well, I know it ain't exactly Emerald City. 1446 01:12:50,783 --> 01:12:53,035 MOORHEAD: They constantly reference that movie, 1447 01:12:53,035 --> 01:12:56,706 and their idea of the comfort of home is the idyllic movie 1448 01:12:56,706 --> 01:12:58,332 "The Wizard of Oz." 1449 01:12:58,332 --> 01:13:03,462 LULA: Oh, I wish I was somewhere over the rainbow. 1450 01:13:03,462 --> 01:13:05,631 It's just shit. 1451 01:13:05,631 --> 01:13:07,550 MOORHEAD: There's this moment where Laura Dern was 1452 01:13:07,550 --> 01:13:11,137 just assaulted by Willem Dafoe, and she clicks her red heels 1453 01:13:11,137 --> 01:13:13,014 together three times. 1454 01:13:13,014 --> 01:13:16,976 You can't miss it, and everyone knows what should happen next. 1455 01:13:16,976 --> 01:13:20,187 But the scene cuts and nothing happens. 1456 01:13:20,187 --> 01:13:22,273 She's still in Oz, 1457 01:13:22,273 --> 01:13:24,483 and it's because he's not retelling "The Wizard of Oz." 1458 01:13:24,483 --> 01:13:26,360 He's using the cultural real estate 1459 01:13:26,360 --> 01:13:29,822 that "The Wizard of Oz" occupies in our public consciousness 1460 01:13:29,822 --> 01:13:34,827 to say in these people's cases, there just is no home. 1461 01:13:34,827 --> 01:13:36,787 All of these virtues that Dorothy collects 1462 01:13:36,787 --> 01:13:38,414 in "The Wizard of Oz" are vices 1463 01:13:38,414 --> 01:13:40,958 that these characters are collecting. 1464 01:13:40,958 --> 01:13:43,419 These vices are going to keep them where they are, 1465 01:13:43,419 --> 01:13:45,546 and they need to find a way to live with that 1466 01:13:45,546 --> 01:13:47,506 or find some other way out. 1467 01:13:47,506 --> 01:13:50,301 Honey, you ain't going to begin worrying now 1468 01:13:50,301 --> 01:13:51,677 over what's bad for you. 1469 01:13:51,677 --> 01:13:54,722 I mean, here you are crossing state lines 1470 01:13:54,722 --> 01:13:58,601 with an A number-one certified murderer. 1471 01:13:58,601 --> 01:14:02,438 Manslaughterer, honey, not murderer. Don't exaggerate. 1472 01:14:02,480 --> 01:14:05,066 MOORHEAD: There's this strange cultural currency 1473 01:14:05,066 --> 01:14:08,527 to using certain almost universally known images 1474 01:14:08,527 --> 01:14:12,406 of 1950s celebrities that have become Americana. 1475 01:14:12,406 --> 01:14:14,533 In almost every movie that David Lynch has made, 1476 01:14:14,533 --> 01:14:17,328 there's some expression of this Americana in it. 1477 01:14:20,873 --> 01:14:22,416 We've got Nicolas Cage basically 1478 01:14:22,416 --> 01:14:23,918 playing Elvis in "Wild at Heart." 1479 01:14:23,918 --> 01:14:28,172 Let's go out into the crazy world of New Orleans. 1480 01:14:28,172 --> 01:14:31,425 Go to Rally's and get a fried banana sandwich. 1481 01:14:31,425 --> 01:14:34,261 Mm. 1482 01:14:34,261 --> 01:14:36,097 Okay. 1483 01:14:36,097 --> 01:14:37,431 MOORHEAD: Almost every character in "Blue Velvet" 1484 01:14:37,431 --> 01:14:39,308 is a 1950s image -- 1485 01:14:39,308 --> 01:14:42,353 bad guys wear leather jackets and hang out in nightclubs. 1486 01:14:42,353 --> 01:14:43,980 -What kind of beer do you like? -Heineken. 1487 01:14:43,980 --> 01:14:47,233 Heineken?! Fuck that shit! 1488 01:14:47,233 --> 01:14:49,026 Pabst Blue Ribbon. 1489 01:14:49,026 --> 01:14:50,403 MOORHEAD: In "Twin Peaks," 1490 01:14:50,403 --> 01:14:52,697 James literally looks like James Dean, 1491 01:14:52,697 --> 01:14:56,200 and Audrey Horne looks a lot like a teenage Ava Gardner. 1492 01:14:56,200 --> 01:14:59,286 [ Down-tempo music plays ] 1493 01:15:02,665 --> 01:15:04,458 BENSON: And Michael Cera in "Twin Peaks" 1494 01:15:04,458 --> 01:15:08,295 is dressed exactly like Marlon Brando in "The Wild One." 1495 01:15:08,295 --> 01:15:11,882 MOORHEAD: And Dale Cooper is like a 1950s noir detective 1496 01:15:11,882 --> 01:15:14,802 and a very idealised version of one. 1497 01:15:14,802 --> 01:15:17,847 He is flawless, almost to the point of satire. 1498 01:15:20,182 --> 01:15:21,976 [Whistle toots ] 1499 01:15:21,976 --> 01:15:24,186 There's the strong connection 1500 01:15:24,186 --> 01:15:26,272 to film noir archetypes in his movies, 1501 01:15:26,272 --> 01:15:29,233 which is interesting because a very, very early noir, 1502 01:15:29,233 --> 01:15:32,486 "I Wake Up Screaming," obsessively uses the song 1503 01:15:32,486 --> 01:15:34,196 "Over the Rainbow" as a motif. 1504 01:15:34,196 --> 01:15:37,199 [ "Over the Rainbow" playing ] 1505 01:15:52,173 --> 01:15:54,633 So there's a very established connection 1506 01:15:54,633 --> 01:15:57,678 between "The Wizard of Oz" and the origins of noir. 1507 01:15:57,678 --> 01:16:00,514 Robert, I -- 1508 01:16:00,514 --> 01:16:04,935 Why, who on earth is that beautiful girl? 1509 01:16:04,935 --> 01:16:07,396 BENSON: David Lynch will often style characters 1510 01:16:07,396 --> 01:16:11,650 as pin-up girls like a Marilyn Monroe type figure 1511 01:16:11,650 --> 01:16:15,237 or a Bettie Page type figure or Jayne Mansfield. 1512 01:16:15,237 --> 01:16:17,156 There's a power to these types of images 1513 01:16:17,156 --> 01:16:20,451 in that they're almost collective fetishes. 1514 01:16:20,451 --> 01:16:22,870 MOORHEAD: Yes, these are '50s Americana archetypes, 1515 01:16:22,870 --> 01:16:25,706 but they're also sex icons, all of them. 1516 01:16:25,706 --> 01:16:27,958 And he's making a facsimile of them 1517 01:16:27,958 --> 01:16:32,421 in order to take us back and prey on our nostalgia. 1518 01:16:32,421 --> 01:16:36,300 And it also makes his movies just very enjoyable to watch. 1519 01:16:36,300 --> 01:16:40,262 So he's not just a surrealist. He's a populist surrealist. 1520 01:16:40,262 --> 01:16:43,265 [ Rock music plays ] 1521 01:16:46,435 --> 01:16:49,188 BENSON: But he always shows you the dark underbelly of that. 1522 01:16:49,188 --> 01:16:51,899 And it seems like it's an expression of this idea 1523 01:16:51,899 --> 01:16:54,693 that the 1950s were a really exciting time 1524 01:16:54,693 --> 01:16:56,821 and it must have felt really good for a lot of people. 1525 01:16:56,821 --> 01:16:59,406 But there was obviously a subset of society 1526 01:16:59,406 --> 01:17:01,283 for whom it wasn't great, 1527 01:17:01,283 --> 01:17:04,829 and the neglect of that leads to a certain kind of horror. 1528 01:17:04,829 --> 01:17:06,997 And it's just -- it's always ready to come out 1529 01:17:06,997 --> 01:17:08,582 and break through the surface. 1530 01:17:14,588 --> 01:17:16,841 David Lynch isn't just holding up these two things and saying, 1531 01:17:16,841 --> 01:17:18,884 "Hey, look how different they are." 1532 01:17:18,884 --> 01:17:20,803 He's way more principled than that. 1533 01:17:20,803 --> 01:17:24,265 He's holding up these things and saying that the badness 1534 01:17:24,265 --> 01:17:27,977 is actually what gives the good meaning. 1535 01:17:27,977 --> 01:17:31,147 And that would be why he has these themes of doppelgangers, 1536 01:17:31,147 --> 01:17:32,731 why he has parallel realities, 1537 01:17:32,731 --> 01:17:34,316 why he has people with the same name 1538 01:17:34,316 --> 01:17:36,110 but completely opposite personalities. 1539 01:17:36,110 --> 01:17:38,821 Is that you? 1540 01:17:38,821 --> 01:17:40,489 Are both of them you? 1541 01:17:40,489 --> 01:17:41,824 BENSON: I think the only things in life for him 1542 01:17:41,824 --> 01:17:43,075 that don't have an evil doppelganger 1543 01:17:43,075 --> 01:17:45,452 are probably coffee and meditation. 1544 01:17:45,452 --> 01:17:48,873 -Coffee. -SHELLY: Agent Cooper? 1545 01:17:48,873 --> 01:17:51,292 Shelly, I'm going to let you in on a little secret. 1546 01:17:51,292 --> 01:17:53,335 It's called Georgia Coffee -- comes in a can, 1547 01:17:53,335 --> 01:17:55,713 tastes as good and rich as any cup of coffee I've ever had. 1548 01:17:55,713 --> 01:17:57,006 It's true. 1549 01:17:59,383 --> 01:18:00,593 BENSON: Even cigarettes in "Wild at Heart" 1550 01:18:00,593 --> 01:18:02,136 are this constant threat, 1551 01:18:02,136 --> 01:18:04,638 and everybody knows David Lynch loves cigarettes. 1552 01:18:09,143 --> 01:18:10,853 Gordon. 1553 01:18:21,447 --> 01:18:23,449 Whoa. 1554 01:18:23,449 --> 01:18:24,867 BENSON: "The Wizard of Oz" treats polarisation 1555 01:18:24,867 --> 01:18:26,619 in the same way. 1556 01:18:26,619 --> 01:18:29,496 There's a black and white Kansas and the Technicolor Oz. 1557 01:18:29,496 --> 01:18:32,374 There's the good witch and the bad witch. 1558 01:18:32,374 --> 01:18:36,212 One is a dream and one is reality. 1559 01:18:36,212 --> 01:18:39,131 And they all have their counterparts in both worlds. 1560 01:18:39,131 --> 01:18:41,508 And that's exactly what David Lynch keeps on doing. 1561 01:18:41,508 --> 01:18:43,427 There's not a lot of moral 1562 01:18:43,427 --> 01:18:45,554 or thematic muddiness in his movies. 1563 01:18:45,554 --> 01:18:47,264 It's funny to say that his movies 1564 01:18:47,264 --> 01:18:48,682 don't have an enormous amount of muddiness to them 1565 01:18:48,682 --> 01:18:51,810 because they're so confounding for most people. 1566 01:18:51,810 --> 01:18:53,896 But what he's doing is he's following these things 1567 01:18:53,896 --> 01:18:55,564 through light and dark 1568 01:18:55,564 --> 01:18:58,859 and through a logic that actually does make sense. 1569 01:18:58,859 --> 01:19:00,653 You know, Bob is a force of evil, 1570 01:19:00,653 --> 01:19:03,280 but you don't see scenes of Bob where you empathise with him 1571 01:19:03,280 --> 01:19:05,616 and wonder how he used to be good. 1572 01:19:05,616 --> 01:19:07,451 And Coop is a force of good, 1573 01:19:07,451 --> 01:19:10,037 and you don't watch him get tempted by the dark side 1574 01:19:10,079 --> 01:19:13,040 unless he's literally possessed by evil. 1575 01:19:13,040 --> 01:19:14,708 They're very complex characters. 1576 01:19:14,708 --> 01:19:16,168 They're extraordinarily deep characters. 1577 01:19:16,168 --> 01:19:17,628 But you just never wonder 1578 01:19:17,628 --> 01:19:19,713 if you're supposed to be rooting for Coop. 1579 01:19:20,256 --> 01:19:23,050 [Thunder crashes] 1580 01:19:23,050 --> 01:19:26,637 MOORHEAD: You know, what's a MAGA hat? 1581 01:19:26,637 --> 01:19:28,806 A MAGA hat is basically saying, 1582 01:19:28,847 --> 01:19:31,433 "Let's get back to this idea of this thing 1583 01:19:31,433 --> 01:19:34,436 that America was that's so much better than now." 1584 01:19:34,436 --> 01:19:36,689 I mean, think about where Marty McFly went to 1585 01:19:36,689 --> 01:19:37,898 in "Back to the Future." 1586 01:19:37,898 --> 01:19:39,733 That 1950s is great. 1587 01:19:39,733 --> 01:19:42,319 Everyone's lives are great and everything is fine, 1588 01:19:42,319 --> 01:19:43,946 more or less. 1589 01:19:43,946 --> 01:19:46,115 But the reality is that nothing's ever been fine. 1590 01:19:46,115 --> 01:19:47,825 It was just fine for a few people. 1591 01:19:47,825 --> 01:19:49,493 I could run for mayor. 1592 01:19:49,493 --> 01:19:51,245 A coloured mayor. That'll be the day. 1593 01:19:51,245 --> 01:19:53,580 You wait and see, Mr. Caruthers. I will be mayor. 1594 01:19:53,580 --> 01:19:55,916 I'll be the most powerful man in Hill Valley. 1595 01:19:55,958 --> 01:19:57,751 And I'm going to clean up this town. 1596 01:19:57,751 --> 01:20:01,130 Good. You can start by sweeping the floor. 1597 01:20:01,130 --> 01:20:02,339 MOORHEAD: And I think that David Lynch, 1598 01:20:02,339 --> 01:20:03,757 who grew up in Boise, Idaho, 1599 01:20:03,757 --> 01:20:06,260 and then eventually moved around a lot, you know, 1600 01:20:06,260 --> 01:20:09,680 one of the places he ended up was low-income Philadelphia. 1601 01:20:09,680 --> 01:20:12,141 And there it's where he sees the flip side of America. 1602 01:20:12,141 --> 01:20:15,227 What's beneath the artificial sheen of it all. 1603 01:20:15,227 --> 01:20:16,937 LYNCH: I lived in Philadelphia, 1604 01:20:16,937 --> 01:20:21,150 and I call "Eraserhead" the true Philadelphia story. 1605 01:20:22,526 --> 01:20:27,531 ♪ Some day over the rainbow ♪ 1606 01:20:27,531 --> 01:20:29,658 ♪ Way up high ♪ 1607 01:20:29,658 --> 01:20:32,119 -What is this, Connor? -Now, now, easy, old man. 1608 01:20:32,119 --> 01:20:34,788 BENSON: And I don't think that his realisation was 1609 01:20:34,788 --> 01:20:36,248 "Ah, man, I was fooled. 1610 01:20:36,248 --> 01:20:38,459 The '50s weren't as great as I thought." 1611 01:20:38,459 --> 01:20:41,920 I think his realisation is "The beautiful white picket fence 1612 01:20:41,920 --> 01:20:43,213 and 'Leave It to Beaver' 1613 01:20:43,213 --> 01:20:45,049 and pin-up girl vision of the '50s, 1614 01:20:45,049 --> 01:20:48,052 it only existed because of this horrible darkness 1615 01:20:48,052 --> 01:20:50,262 that I'm now able to see, 1616 01:20:50,262 --> 01:20:52,181 and it's built on the shoulders of it." 1617 01:20:52,181 --> 01:20:54,224 So there's America, 1618 01:20:54,224 --> 01:20:56,727 and then there's a doppelganger of America. 1619 01:20:56,727 --> 01:21:00,105 And the American dream was, in fact, an American myth. 1620 01:21:00,105 --> 01:21:01,607 Or perhaps the American dream 1621 01:21:01,607 --> 01:21:03,817 walks hand-in-hand with the American myth. 1622 01:21:03,817 --> 01:21:07,696 [ Radio playing indistinctly] 1623 01:21:10,657 --> 01:21:12,451 The way Lynch usually expresses 1624 01:21:12,451 --> 01:21:14,119 showing the underbelly of America 1625 01:21:14,119 --> 01:21:16,163 is often through the way women are treated 1626 01:21:16,163 --> 01:21:17,748 by the side of society 1627 01:21:17,748 --> 01:21:19,583 that is the romanticised portion. 1628 01:21:19,583 --> 01:21:21,335 It's the portion that's supposed to be good. 1629 01:21:21,335 --> 01:21:24,338 Stay away from me. 1630 01:21:24,338 --> 01:21:27,132 BENSON: Laura Palmer's dad is a 1950s ideal, 1631 01:21:27,132 --> 01:21:31,387 but he's obviously done awful things to her. 1632 01:21:31,387 --> 01:21:33,013 And then in "Blue Velvet," you know, 1633 01:21:33,013 --> 01:21:36,266 Jeffrey watches Dorothy Vallens from a closet. 1634 01:21:36,266 --> 01:21:38,477 -Hello, baby. -Shut up. 1635 01:21:38,477 --> 01:21:40,979 It's Daddy, you shithead. Where's my bourbon? 1636 01:21:40,979 --> 01:21:43,607 BENSON: And witnesses how she's treated for a very long time. 1637 01:21:43,607 --> 01:21:45,067 [Groaning ] 1638 01:21:45,067 --> 01:21:47,778 Don't you fucking look at me! 1639 01:21:47,778 --> 01:21:50,114 BENSON: Really that story is about him observing 1640 01:21:50,114 --> 01:21:51,532 how this woman has been destroyed 1641 01:21:51,532 --> 01:21:53,450 by the society he lives in. 1642 01:21:53,450 --> 01:21:56,120 And he had no idea that it was destroying women. 1643 01:21:57,079 --> 01:21:59,581 Hold me! I'm falling! 1644 01:21:59,581 --> 01:22:02,626 -I'm falling! -[ Siren wailing ] 1645 01:22:02,626 --> 01:22:05,754 BENSON: And so there's definitely a huge parallel there 1646 01:22:05,754 --> 01:22:09,216 to this old-fashioned idea, and not just of America, 1647 01:22:09,216 --> 01:22:11,385 but of the golden age of Hollywood, 1648 01:22:11,385 --> 01:22:13,971 the system in which Lynch is now working. 1649 01:22:13,971 --> 01:22:16,181 From Hollywood, California, 1650 01:22:16,181 --> 01:22:18,434 where stars make dreams 1651 01:22:18,434 --> 01:22:22,688 and dreams make stars. 1652 01:22:22,688 --> 01:22:24,815 The relationship between Judy Garland 1653 01:22:24,815 --> 01:22:26,567 and the character of Dorothy 1654 01:22:26,567 --> 01:22:29,361 is highly analogous to heaven and hell. 1655 01:22:29,361 --> 01:22:31,530 The American dream versus the American myth. 1656 01:22:31,530 --> 01:22:33,740 MOORHEAD: And there's references to characters 1657 01:22:33,740 --> 01:22:35,284 named Dorothy in "Blue Velvet" 1658 01:22:35,284 --> 01:22:36,994 and in "The Straight Story," 1659 01:22:36,994 --> 01:22:39,121 there's a Garland Avenue in "Lost Highway." 1660 01:22:39,121 --> 01:22:41,874 MAN: He lives with his parents, William and Candace Dayton, 1661 01:22:41,874 --> 01:22:46,503 at 814 Garland Avenue. 1662 01:22:46,503 --> 01:22:47,921 Garland? 1663 01:22:47,921 --> 01:22:51,049 Did Windom Earle do this to you? 1664 01:22:51,049 --> 01:22:53,760 Garland? 1665 01:22:53,760 --> 01:22:56,930 Odd name. 1666 01:22:56,930 --> 01:22:58,765 Judy Garland. 1667 01:22:58,765 --> 01:22:59,933 BENSON: In "Twin Peaks," 1668 01:22:59,933 --> 01:23:02,936 the idea of Judy comes up all the time, 1669 01:23:02,936 --> 01:23:05,105 especially the question of who is Judy? 1670 01:23:05,105 --> 01:23:07,399 Where is Judy? 1671 01:23:07,399 --> 01:23:09,359 Who is Judy? 1672 01:23:09,359 --> 01:23:13,530 JEFFRIES: You've already met Judy. 1673 01:23:13,530 --> 01:23:15,324 What do you mean I've met Judy?? 1674 01:23:15,324 --> 01:23:16,700 BENSON: And Judy's never to be found. 1675 01:23:16,700 --> 01:23:19,244 Judy seems to represent the grand mystery. 1676 01:23:19,244 --> 01:23:21,497 Gotcha. Can I say hello to my friend Judy? 1677 01:23:21,497 --> 01:23:24,750 -Where's she? Sure. -She's a friend. Hello, Judy. 1678 01:23:24,750 --> 01:23:26,877 LENO: Now, you say that, now, who is Judy? 1679 01:23:26,877 --> 01:23:29,087 -What does she do? -She's just a friend. 1680 01:23:29,087 --> 01:23:30,881 LENO: Just a friend. Now, you see -- 1681 01:23:30,881 --> 01:23:32,966 I mean, is it an open-ended friend? 1682 01:23:32,966 --> 01:23:34,176 Open-ended, yeah. 1683 01:23:34,176 --> 01:23:36,136 [ Cheers and applause] 1684 01:23:38,764 --> 01:23:40,474 Where is Judy now? 1685 01:23:40,474 --> 01:23:43,101 She is in America. 1686 01:23:43,101 --> 01:23:46,813 BENSON: She's almost her own doppelganger in the sense 1687 01:23:46,813 --> 01:23:49,650 that on screen, she's this totally wholesome person. 1688 01:23:49,650 --> 01:23:52,110 But in real life, Judy Garland was pigeonholed 1689 01:23:52,110 --> 01:23:53,904 into that girl-next-door thing. 1690 01:23:53,904 --> 01:23:57,324 She had problems with alcoholism, pill use. 1691 01:23:57,324 --> 01:23:59,785 She had an eating disorder. She died very young. 1692 01:23:59,785 --> 01:24:03,205 She was only 47 and almost broke. 1693 01:24:03,205 --> 01:24:06,166 GARLAND: I wanted, 1694 01:24:06,208 --> 01:24:09,836 and I tried my damnedest, 1695 01:24:09,836 --> 01:24:12,756 to believe in the rainbow 1696 01:24:12,756 --> 01:24:14,383 that I tried to get over. 1697 01:24:14,383 --> 01:24:17,386 And I couldn't. So what? 1698 01:24:19,429 --> 01:24:23,308 BENSON: So who is Judy? It's an unanswerable question. 1699 01:24:23,308 --> 01:24:26,812 It takes an entire lifetime of Judy Garland to answer. 1700 01:24:26,812 --> 01:24:29,815 [ Sombre music plays ] 1701 01:24:46,582 --> 01:24:49,585 [ Down-tempo music plays ] 1702 01:24:57,426 --> 01:24:59,886 LOWERY: I grew up with a black-and-white television. 1703 01:24:59,886 --> 01:25:02,639 And so the formal idea that Oz was in colour 1704 01:25:02,639 --> 01:25:06,143 was lost on me for many, many years. 1705 01:25:06,143 --> 01:25:08,895 The first time I saw it as it was intended was in 1989, 1706 01:25:08,895 --> 01:25:10,230 and that was revelatory. 1707 01:25:10,230 --> 01:25:12,024 But it also didn't diminish 1708 01:25:12,024 --> 01:25:14,568 my previous understanding of the movie, 1709 01:25:14,568 --> 01:25:17,613 which kind of proves the extent to which our imagination drives 1710 01:25:17,613 --> 01:25:20,616 our understanding of the stories that are being told to us. 1711 01:25:20,616 --> 01:25:23,869 DOROTHY: But I feel as if I've known you all the time. 1712 01:25:23,869 --> 01:25:26,121 But I couldn't have, could I? 1713 01:25:26,121 --> 01:25:29,082 LOWERY: I feel like I must have handled the 35 millimetre print 1714 01:25:29,082 --> 01:25:30,917 at some point when I was in high school 1715 01:25:30,917 --> 01:25:32,210 when I was a projectionist. 1716 01:25:32,210 --> 01:25:34,963 But I could be misremembering this. 1717 01:25:34,963 --> 01:25:36,798 It's weird that I can't remember if that was real or not. 1718 01:25:36,798 --> 01:25:39,092 [ Cackles ] 1719 01:25:41,178 --> 01:25:45,098 I like to remember things my own way. 1720 01:25:45,098 --> 01:25:46,808 What do you mean by that? 1721 01:25:49,686 --> 01:25:51,313 How I remember them, 1722 01:25:51,313 --> 01:25:54,107 not necessarily the way they happened. 1723 01:25:54,107 --> 01:25:55,442 LOWERY: Looking at it as an adult, 1724 01:25:55,442 --> 01:25:56,985 it feels to me like "The Wizard of Oz" 1725 01:25:56,985 --> 01:25:59,279 might be a Quaalude for the proletariat. 1726 01:25:59,279 --> 01:26:01,782 Poppies. 1727 01:26:01,782 --> 01:26:05,285 Poppies will put them to sleep. 1728 01:26:05,285 --> 01:26:06,953 LOWERY: "Everything's just fine the way it is. 1729 01:26:06,953 --> 01:26:08,914 Don't strive for anything more." 1730 01:26:08,914 --> 01:26:10,791 The fact that the movie reverts to sepia 1731 01:26:10,791 --> 01:26:13,960 is a very caustic and suppressive move. 1732 01:26:13,960 --> 01:26:15,754 When you look at it this way, it's almost as 1733 01:26:15,754 --> 01:26:19,132 if the pioneering spirit of America is being subdued. 1734 01:26:19,132 --> 01:26:20,926 That we're being told to stop dreaming, 1735 01:26:20,926 --> 01:26:24,012 to stop yearning, and to put down roots. 1736 01:26:24,012 --> 01:26:26,223 The American dream is shifting before our eyes 1737 01:26:26,223 --> 01:26:28,225 from one ideal to the next. 1738 01:26:28,225 --> 01:26:31,228 [ Dramatic music plays] 1739 01:26:35,399 --> 01:26:37,651 Every movie is a transportive event. 1740 01:26:37,651 --> 01:26:40,028 A cyclone carrying us to another realm. 1741 01:26:40,028 --> 01:26:43,782 ROSE: That was Bobby. 1742 01:26:43,782 --> 01:26:48,161 Uncle Lyle had a -- a stroke. 1743 01:26:48,161 --> 01:26:51,915 [Thunder crashes] 1744 01:26:51,915 --> 01:26:53,583 LOWERY: A movie can take us to another world 1745 01:26:53,583 --> 01:26:56,002 and then safely return us home. 1746 01:26:56,002 --> 01:26:57,713 Or it can offer us a clear 1747 01:26:57,713 --> 01:27:00,590 and more vivid perspective of the world around us. 1748 01:27:00,590 --> 01:27:02,217 Had enough, asshole? 1749 01:27:02,217 --> 01:27:04,845 LOWERY: It can dig in to the world at hand. 1750 01:27:04,845 --> 01:27:07,139 Yes, I have. 1751 01:27:07,139 --> 01:27:09,099 And I want to apologise to you gentlemen 1752 01:27:09,099 --> 01:27:12,436 for referring to you as homosexuals. 1753 01:27:12,436 --> 01:27:15,439 I also want to thank you fellas. 1754 01:27:15,439 --> 01:27:18,150 You've taught me a valuable lesson in life. 1755 01:27:18,900 --> 01:27:22,612 Lola! 1756 01:27:22,612 --> 01:27:25,615 [ Uplifting music plays] 1757 01:27:28,160 --> 01:27:30,203 LOWERY: Each of these is a different type of journey, 1758 01:27:30,203 --> 01:27:33,165 but the common ground is when we watch a movie, 1759 01:27:33,165 --> 01:27:35,375 an act of transportation is occurring. 1760 01:27:39,045 --> 01:27:41,757 Many children's films are about making peace with the fact 1761 01:27:41,757 --> 01:27:45,135 that one must find a way to exist in the world at hand, 1762 01:27:45,135 --> 01:27:47,053 that there is not a better place to go. 1763 01:27:47,053 --> 01:27:48,805 [ Speaking Japanese ] 1764 01:27:48,847 --> 01:27:50,891 [ Speaking Japanese ] 1765 01:27:50,932 --> 01:27:52,309 [ Speaking Japanese ] 1766 01:27:53,226 --> 01:27:57,147 LOWERY: We see this in "Peter Pan" with Never land. 1767 01:27:57,147 --> 01:27:59,274 One of the crucial points of that tale is discovering 1768 01:27:59,274 --> 01:28:02,569 that Never land and the very concept of not growing up 1769 01:28:02,569 --> 01:28:04,821 isn't all that it's cracked up to be. 1770 01:28:04,821 --> 01:28:07,699 -Oh, Mother, we're back. -Back? 1771 01:28:07,699 --> 01:28:09,117 WENDY: All except the Lost Boys. 1772 01:28:09,117 --> 01:28:10,660 They weren't quite ready. 1773 01:28:10,660 --> 01:28:13,246 -Lost B-- Ready? -To grow up. 1774 01:28:13,246 --> 01:28:15,499 That's why they went back to Never land. 1775 01:28:15,499 --> 01:28:18,877 -Never land? -Yes, but I am. 1776 01:28:18,877 --> 01:28:20,587 Am? 1777 01:28:20,629 --> 01:28:23,381 Ready to grow up. 1778 01:28:23,381 --> 01:28:25,008 LOWERY: We see it in "Where the Wild Things Are," 1779 01:28:25,008 --> 01:28:26,343 which has a lot in common with both 1780 01:28:26,343 --> 01:28:28,512 "The Wizard of Oz" and "Peter Pan." 1781 01:28:28,512 --> 01:28:30,806 The idea that there may be a world in which childhood 1782 01:28:30,806 --> 01:28:33,266 reigns supreme and where rules don't apply. 1783 01:28:33,266 --> 01:28:35,352 Be still! 1784 01:28:35,352 --> 01:28:38,230 [ Dramatic music plays] 1785 01:28:40,065 --> 01:28:41,441 Why? 1786 01:28:41,483 --> 01:28:44,027 LOWERY: And yet, when Max gets there, 1787 01:28:44,027 --> 01:28:46,530 he finds that there's a reason we have those rules. 1788 01:28:46,530 --> 01:28:48,532 Because... 1789 01:28:48,532 --> 01:28:50,033 Why? 1790 01:28:50,033 --> 01:28:52,869 Well, because you can't eat me. 1791 01:28:52,869 --> 01:28:54,496 You didn't know that, 1792 01:28:54,496 --> 01:28:56,623 so I forgive you, but never try it again. 1793 01:28:56,623 --> 01:28:58,291 LOWERY: And there's an inevitable disappointment 1794 01:28:58,291 --> 01:29:00,043 in this, especially for a young viewer 1795 01:29:00,043 --> 01:29:02,295 who wants the fantasy to be maintained. 1796 01:29:02,295 --> 01:29:03,922 Come. 1797 01:29:08,218 --> 01:29:11,304 Stay. 1798 01:29:11,304 --> 01:29:13,223 LOWERY: I remember feeling this very profoundly 1799 01:29:13,223 --> 01:29:15,058 as a child with "Beauty and the Beast." 1800 01:29:15,058 --> 01:29:16,601 It's me. 1801 01:29:16,601 --> 01:29:18,061 LOWERY: When the beast became a human again, 1802 01:29:18,061 --> 01:29:19,396 it was innately disappointing 1803 01:29:19,396 --> 01:29:21,982 because now he's just a normal human. 1804 01:29:21,982 --> 01:29:24,109 Of course, when I really thought about what Belle's life would be 1805 01:29:24,109 --> 01:29:25,944 like living with this half-human half-lion 1806 01:29:25,944 --> 01:29:27,279 she'd fallen in love with, 1807 01:29:27,279 --> 01:29:28,989 all sorts of practical problems emerged. 1808 01:29:28,989 --> 01:29:31,283 And they got quite disturbing quite quickly. 1809 01:29:33,827 --> 01:29:36,830 [ Speaking French ] 1810 01:29:39,374 --> 01:29:41,418 [ Speaking French ] 1811 01:29:41,418 --> 01:29:43,169 LOWERY: And so in some respect, 1812 01:29:43,169 --> 01:29:45,922 these narratives are doing us as children a favour 1813 01:29:45,922 --> 01:29:47,757 and gently revealing that what we perceive 1814 01:29:47,757 --> 01:29:49,676 as disappointments and discomforts 1815 01:29:49,676 --> 01:29:52,888 are in fact necessary in order to both function in the world 1816 01:29:52,888 --> 01:29:54,764 and to appreciate it. 1817 01:29:54,764 --> 01:29:57,058 Oh, but anyway, Toto, we're home. 1818 01:29:57,058 --> 01:29:58,518 Home. 1819 01:29:58,518 --> 01:29:59,978 LOWERY: They implicitly promise us 1820 01:29:59,978 --> 01:30:01,187 that the journey into adulthood 1821 01:30:01,187 --> 01:30:03,023 will not be as bad as we think it is 1822 01:30:03,023 --> 01:30:06,484 and that we don't have to leave everything behind. 1823 01:30:06,484 --> 01:30:08,778 In "Pete's Dragon," the world that Pete is leaving behind 1824 01:30:08,778 --> 01:30:12,157 when he leaves the forest is not going to be lost to him forever. 1825 01:30:12,157 --> 01:30:15,160 [ Uplifting music plays] 1826 01:30:16,661 --> 01:30:19,122 [ Roars I 1827 01:30:24,294 --> 01:30:26,671 LOWERY: And I think that is what we have in "Peter Pan" as well. 1828 01:30:26,671 --> 01:30:29,132 The idea that growing up can be just as magical 1829 01:30:29,132 --> 01:30:30,717 as living as a child forever, 1830 01:30:30,717 --> 01:30:33,553 and perhaps more so because change can occur 1831 01:30:33,553 --> 01:30:36,598 and change can be a beautiful thing. 1832 01:30:36,598 --> 01:30:39,059 You know, I have the strangest feeling 1833 01:30:39,059 --> 01:30:41,728 that I've seen that ship before. 1834 01:30:41,728 --> 01:30:46,691 A long time ago when I was very young. 1835 01:30:46,691 --> 01:30:49,235 -George, dear. -Father. 1836 01:30:55,867 --> 01:30:59,079 LOWERY: Lynch's work definitely functions across that spectrum 1837 01:30:59,079 --> 01:31:01,873 of the ways in which a film can transport us. 1838 01:31:06,586 --> 01:31:08,964 His understanding of the quotidian is very rooted 1839 01:31:08,964 --> 01:31:11,841 in the world in which he grew up. 1840 01:31:11,841 --> 01:31:13,343 "The Straight Story," 1841 01:31:13,343 --> 01:31:15,762 in addition to literally being about transportation, 1842 01:31:15,804 --> 01:31:17,138 is just as transportive 1843 01:31:17,138 --> 01:31:19,474 as "Lost Highway" or "Inland Empire." 1844 01:31:19,474 --> 01:31:21,685 But the world that takes us to has a verisimilitude 1845 01:31:21,685 --> 01:31:24,437 that is much more graspable, relatable. 1846 01:31:24,437 --> 01:31:26,898 You feel like you can dig your fingers into it. 1847 01:31:26,898 --> 01:31:30,902 And I think that's why the film ultimately is so gentle. 1848 01:31:30,902 --> 01:31:32,195 They look at the stars at the end, 1849 01:31:32,195 --> 01:31:33,613 and for a moment you feel that 1850 01:31:33,613 --> 01:31:35,907 maybe that's where you're going, too. 1851 01:31:35,907 --> 01:31:38,493 But in reality, you know that you're just sitting on the porch 1852 01:31:38,493 --> 01:31:39,995 in the country on a planet 1853 01:31:39,995 --> 01:31:41,579 that is indeed hurtling through space. 1854 01:31:41,579 --> 01:31:43,873 But still you're just on the porch, 1855 01:31:43,873 --> 01:31:46,376 and you know what that feels like. 1856 01:31:46,376 --> 01:31:47,961 Whereas in "Lost Highway," Fred Madison 1857 01:31:47,961 --> 01:31:49,671 disappears into a dark hallway, 1858 01:31:49,671 --> 01:31:52,382 and you have no idea what might be on the other side 1859 01:31:52,382 --> 01:31:55,385 or whether he's going to emerge in his own house at all. 1860 01:31:55,385 --> 01:31:57,262 You're in a seemingly familiar space, 1861 01:31:57,262 --> 01:32:00,265 but as you move through it, you lose all bearings on reality. 1862 01:32:01,599 --> 01:32:03,977 I do feel that what Lynch is doing in his movies 1863 01:32:03,977 --> 01:32:05,979 is indicative of something that occurs 1864 01:32:05,979 --> 01:32:09,816 when we watch "The Wizard of Oz" repeatedly over our lives. 1865 01:32:09,816 --> 01:32:11,568 "The Wizard of Oz" that I see as a child 1866 01:32:11,568 --> 01:32:14,571 is a burst of happiness with very little at stake. 1867 01:32:14,571 --> 01:32:16,990 It's a fairy tale with a happy ending. 1868 01:32:16,990 --> 01:32:18,742 I don't understand yet the layers 1869 01:32:18,742 --> 01:32:20,493 that can be extrapolated from it, 1870 01:32:20,493 --> 01:32:22,245 partially because I'm seeing it all in black and white, 1871 01:32:22,245 --> 01:32:26,291 but also because I'm a child and I take it at face value. 1872 01:32:26,291 --> 01:32:29,377 "The Wizard of Oz" I experienced as a teenager is different. 1873 01:32:29,377 --> 01:32:32,213 I'm a little bit more cynical now, as teenagers are. 1874 01:32:32,213 --> 01:32:33,465 Oh! 1875 01:32:33,465 --> 01:32:35,383 Dorothy? Who's Dorothy? 1876 01:32:35,383 --> 01:32:36,843 LOWERY: The idea that you return 1877 01:32:36,843 --> 01:32:38,678 to this black-and-white world at the end, 1878 01:32:38,678 --> 01:32:40,805 there's something off about it, and I don't know what it is yet, 1879 01:32:40,805 --> 01:32:43,141 but I can tell that it's not quite right. 1880 01:32:45,185 --> 01:32:46,770 And then later in life, 1881 01:32:46,770 --> 01:32:48,897 I began to look at it as a piece of history, 1882 01:32:48,897 --> 01:32:51,191 which I think with any movie that has endured, 1883 01:32:51,191 --> 01:32:53,526 becomes a part of the text of the film. 1884 01:32:53,526 --> 01:32:55,528 At a certain point, you can't separate the film 1885 01:32:55,528 --> 01:32:57,072 from its own history, 1886 01:32:57,072 --> 01:32:58,573 and you start to understand that the world 1887 01:32:58,573 --> 01:33:01,701 in which this film was made was not a happy one. 1888 01:33:01,701 --> 01:33:04,162 At first it manifests in bits of trivia, 1889 01:33:04,162 --> 01:33:05,622 like the exploits of the Munchkins 1890 01:33:05,622 --> 01:33:07,165 in the Culver City Hotel, 1891 01:33:07,165 --> 01:33:09,209 that they had these Dionysian parties after hours 1892 01:33:09,209 --> 01:33:11,377 and trashed the entire hotel. 1893 01:33:11,377 --> 01:33:12,378 There was a lot of them. 1894 01:33:12,378 --> 01:33:14,631 Oh, hundreds and thousands. 1895 01:33:14,672 --> 01:33:17,258 And they put them all in one hotel room -- 1896 01:33:17,258 --> 01:33:20,386 not one room, one hotel in Culver City. 1897 01:33:20,386 --> 01:33:23,348 And they got smashed every night 1898 01:33:23,348 --> 01:33:26,309 and they'd pick them up in butterfly nets. 1899 01:33:26,309 --> 01:33:28,311 [ Laughter] 1900 01:33:31,981 --> 01:33:33,733 LOWERY: You hear these stories and you laugh 1901 01:33:33,733 --> 01:33:35,193 and you think it's funny, 1902 01:33:35,193 --> 01:33:37,028 but it also starts to colour your understanding 1903 01:33:37,028 --> 01:33:39,114 of this seemingly perfect Technicolor world 1904 01:33:39,114 --> 01:33:41,407 in which nothing is necessarily wrong. 1905 01:33:41,407 --> 01:33:46,579 We thank you very sweetly for doing it so neatly. 1906 01:33:46,579 --> 01:33:52,460 You've killed us so completely that we thank you very sweetly. 1907 01:33:52,460 --> 01:33:54,504 LOWERY: The thing that I really got into 1908 01:33:54,504 --> 01:33:57,090 was the mythology around the dead person. 1909 01:33:57,090 --> 01:34:00,301 A dead stagehand or a dead Munchkin who committed suicide 1910 01:34:00,301 --> 01:34:03,888 and is supposedly just barely visible in the finished film, 1911 01:34:03,888 --> 01:34:06,266 hanging in the background on the set. 1912 01:34:06,266 --> 01:34:07,809 I had the movie on VHS 1913 01:34:07,851 --> 01:34:09,727 and I spent a lot of time digging through the tape, 1914 01:34:09,727 --> 01:34:11,563 rewinding it, looking for this evidence 1915 01:34:11,563 --> 01:34:13,773 that supposedly existed of someone 1916 01:34:13,773 --> 01:34:15,817 who had hung themselves in the set of a movie 1917 01:34:15,817 --> 01:34:17,819 that was regarded as one of the happiest, 1918 01:34:17,819 --> 01:34:19,487 most influential films for children 1919 01:34:19,487 --> 01:34:22,615 of the past 40 or 50 years. 1920 01:34:22,615 --> 01:34:25,076 The idea that a movie could be a bubble, 1921 01:34:25,076 --> 01:34:26,786 that it could be representative of all 1922 01:34:26,786 --> 01:34:28,538 that is wholesome in America, 1923 01:34:28,538 --> 01:34:30,456 and yet also contain textual evidence 1924 01:34:30,456 --> 01:34:34,627 of the darkest depths of human misery really fascinated me. 1925 01:34:34,627 --> 01:34:37,172 It's like the story in "3 Men and a Baby." 1926 01:34:37,172 --> 01:34:39,841 I had heard that there was supposedly a ghost of a child 1927 01:34:39,841 --> 01:34:42,802 who had died on the sound stage visible in the finished film, 1928 01:34:42,802 --> 01:34:44,637 and I was determined to find it. 1929 01:34:44,637 --> 01:34:46,890 Where the hell is he, milking the cows or something? 1930 01:34:46,890 --> 01:34:48,933 LOWERY: I'd heard that this ghost was visible in a shot 1931 01:34:48,933 --> 01:34:50,476 where the camera panned past a window. 1932 01:34:50,476 --> 01:34:52,979 So I remember renting that tape and rewinding 1933 01:34:52,979 --> 01:34:54,480 and fast forwarding and rewinding 1934 01:34:54,480 --> 01:34:56,316 and fast forwarding and hitting pause and play 1935 01:34:56,316 --> 01:34:59,235 and pause and play, looking for any brightly lit scene 1936 01:34:59,235 --> 01:35:01,404 that might have a window in it. 1937 01:35:01,404 --> 01:35:03,865 And eventually I found what people were talking about, 1938 01:35:03,865 --> 01:35:05,950 and it freaked me out because it looked exactly 1939 01:35:05,950 --> 01:35:08,870 like what I feared it might be. 1940 01:35:08,870 --> 01:35:10,622 And I also found it in "The Wizard of Oz," 1941 01:35:10,622 --> 01:35:12,081 and that freaked me out, too. 1942 01:35:12,081 --> 01:35:13,666 Here I am looking at a movie 1943 01:35:13,666 --> 01:35:15,210 that I've seen a million times before, 1944 01:35:15,210 --> 01:35:17,420 and suddenly I'm seeing this secret revelation 1945 01:35:17,420 --> 01:35:21,966 in these 480 lines of NTSC video that was meant to be hidden, 1946 01:35:21,966 --> 01:35:24,469 that we were meant to be protected from. 1947 01:35:24,469 --> 01:35:25,970 Now, none of this is true, of course. 1948 01:35:25,970 --> 01:35:27,597 It's not actually a dead stagehand 1949 01:35:27,597 --> 01:35:28,932 or a dead Munchkin. 1950 01:35:28,932 --> 01:35:31,517 It's a bird or an ostrich or something. 1951 01:35:31,517 --> 01:35:32,852 And the ghost in "3 Men and a Baby" 1952 01:35:32,852 --> 01:35:35,230 is a cardboard cutout. 1953 01:35:35,230 --> 01:35:37,482 But once you set aside these facetious myths 1954 01:35:37,482 --> 01:35:39,275 about the dark side of "The Wizard of Oz," 1955 01:35:39,275 --> 01:35:42,070 you can actually start to unpack the literal dark side 1956 01:35:42,070 --> 01:35:44,447 to the film, which ranges from the incidents 1957 01:35:44,447 --> 01:35:48,284 of the Culver City Hotel to Judy Garland's own life story. 1958 01:35:48,284 --> 01:35:49,577 And these things colour the movie 1959 01:35:49,577 --> 01:35:52,455 in a way that is impossible to unsee. 1960 01:35:52,455 --> 01:35:54,499 It is impossible to separate the film from them 1961 01:35:54,499 --> 01:35:56,584 once you become aware of them. 1962 01:35:56,584 --> 01:35:59,921 And that is what I believe Lynch is doing with his films, 1963 01:35:59,921 --> 01:36:01,881 this tarnishing of the American dream 1964 01:36:01,881 --> 01:36:04,801 that exists in the text of "The Wizard of Oz." 1965 01:36:04,801 --> 01:36:06,844 I think that's something that he's obsessed with. 1966 01:36:06,844 --> 01:36:10,682 Here, Scarecrow. Want to play ball? 1967 01:36:10,682 --> 01:36:12,767 [ Cackles ] 1968 01:36:12,767 --> 01:36:15,645 LOWERY: It's something that he must have gone through himself. 1969 01:36:15,645 --> 01:36:18,815 -Here's to Ben. -Here's to Ben. 1970 01:36:18,815 --> 01:36:22,652 Hey, neighbour. 1971 01:36:22,652 --> 01:36:23,903 Here's to Ben. 1972 01:36:25,697 --> 01:36:26,864 Here's to Ben. 1973 01:36:26,864 --> 01:36:28,199 Be polite. 1974 01:36:30,326 --> 01:36:31,995 Here's to Ben. 1975 01:36:34,038 --> 01:36:35,498 LOWERY: I think Lynch accepts the fact 1976 01:36:35,498 --> 01:36:39,168 that we are at all times surrounded by dark forces. 1977 01:36:39,168 --> 01:36:41,629 But he also believes that they can be subdued. 1978 01:36:41,629 --> 01:36:43,423 Goodness will prevail. 1979 01:36:43,423 --> 01:36:46,509 He said this very recently in one of his weather reports. 1980 01:36:46,509 --> 01:36:49,762 Great things, beautiful things are afoot. 1981 01:36:49,762 --> 01:36:51,306 I think this is what he's working towards, 1982 01:36:51,306 --> 01:36:54,142 both in his movies but also in life. 1983 01:36:54,142 --> 01:36:59,355 Right now, the thorns of negativity 1984 01:36:59,355 --> 01:37:03,318 are making their last desperate stand. 1985 01:37:03,318 --> 01:37:08,364 But soon they're going to wither and fall away. 1986 01:37:08,364 --> 01:37:13,536 They're going to rot and disappear. 1987 01:37:13,536 --> 01:37:17,123 So don't despair. 1988 01:37:17,123 --> 01:37:21,919 Great times are coming for the United States 1989 01:37:21,919 --> 01:37:25,381 and for the whole world family. 1990 01:37:25,381 --> 01:37:27,717 LOWERY: I wonder if ingesting these -- 1991 01:37:27,717 --> 01:37:29,385 you call them totems, 1992 01:37:29,385 --> 01:37:31,554 but I would also just call them symbols or motifs 1993 01:37:31,554 --> 01:37:34,557 from "The Wizard of Oz," if he's just regurgitating them 1994 01:37:34,557 --> 01:37:38,144 because they've become embedded in his own cultural lexicon. 1995 01:37:38,144 --> 01:37:41,105 [ Sombre music plays ] 1996 01:37:45,318 --> 01:37:49,447 What did I tell you? Magic. 1997 01:37:49,447 --> 01:37:52,450 LOWERY: As a filmmaker, that's something I know I certainly do. 1998 01:37:52,450 --> 01:37:54,660 In "Pete's Dragon," I was constantly telling the actors, 1999 01:37:54,660 --> 01:37:56,412 "Look up at the sky with a look of wonder. 2000 01:37:56,412 --> 01:37:57,663 What are you looking at? Doesn't matter. 2001 01:37:57,663 --> 01:37:58,873 I'll figure it out later. 2002 01:37:58,873 --> 01:38:00,792 Just give me that look of wonder." 2003 01:38:00,792 --> 01:38:02,752 And all I'm doing there is recapitulating 2004 01:38:02,752 --> 01:38:04,253 the Spielberg face, 2005 01:38:04,253 --> 01:38:06,506 which has become embedded in my own psyche 2006 01:38:06,506 --> 01:38:08,925 throughout the years of me loving Spielberg movies 2007 01:38:08,925 --> 01:38:11,219 and understanding that a certain expression can convey 2008 01:38:11,219 --> 01:38:14,555 a certain feeling to the audience. 2009 01:38:14,555 --> 01:38:16,682 And if you use it at just the right time, 2010 01:38:16,682 --> 01:38:18,267 you'll achieve an emotional apex 2011 01:38:18,267 --> 01:38:19,769 that is almost universally understood 2012 01:38:19,769 --> 01:38:23,523 to mean one thing, which in this case is wonder. 2013 01:38:23,523 --> 01:38:25,316 So if a character in one of Lynch's movies 2014 01:38:25,316 --> 01:38:27,026 is wearing red shoes, 2015 01:38:27,026 --> 01:38:29,028 whether or not we're consciously processing it, 2016 01:38:29,028 --> 01:38:30,321 there's a symbolism at hand 2017 01:38:30,321 --> 01:38:32,865 that goes further than his own work. 2018 01:38:32,865 --> 01:38:34,242 It goes into our own understanding 2019 01:38:34,242 --> 01:38:35,952 of what those ruby slippers might have meant 2020 01:38:35,952 --> 01:38:38,329 when we first saw them as a child. 2021 01:38:38,329 --> 01:38:40,123 I'm not going to talk about Judy. 2022 01:38:40,123 --> 01:38:42,917 In fact, we're not going to talk about Judy at all. 2023 01:38:42,917 --> 01:38:44,293 We're going to keep her out of it. 2024 01:38:44,293 --> 01:38:46,754 -Gordon. -I know, Coop. 2025 01:38:46,754 --> 01:38:48,923 LOWERY: The first movie I saw that wasn't an animated film 2026 01:38:48,923 --> 01:38:50,675 at the movie theatre was "E.T.," 2027 01:38:50,675 --> 01:38:55,304 and I'm still recycling the things I got from that film. 2028 01:38:55,304 --> 01:38:58,099 The first movie I saw in a cinema at all was "Pinocchio." 2029 01:39:00,351 --> 01:39:03,604 ♪ I got no strings to hold me d-- ♪ 2030 01:39:06,149 --> 01:39:07,900 LOWERY: The journey of "Pinocchio." 2031 01:39:07,900 --> 01:39:10,319 The lessons of "Pinocchio." 2032 01:39:11,737 --> 01:39:13,823 [GULPS] 2033 01:39:13,823 --> 01:39:15,575 LOWERY: The darkness of "Pinocchio." 2034 01:39:15,575 --> 01:39:20,371 Mama! Mama! 2035 01:39:20,371 --> 01:39:23,332 [ Braying ] 2036 01:39:23,332 --> 01:39:25,918 LOWERY: Those are things that I consistently am coming back to. 2037 01:39:25,918 --> 01:39:28,880 [Tense music plays] 2038 01:39:40,766 --> 01:39:42,435 Putting together a list of the movies 2039 01:39:42,435 --> 01:39:45,229 that I think had a seismic effect on the work that I do, 2040 01:39:45,229 --> 01:39:46,939 it's not a long list. 2041 01:39:46,939 --> 01:39:50,109 Those impressions run deep and are hard to escape, 2042 01:39:50,109 --> 01:39:52,487 and they're so hard to escape that I think the majority of us 2043 01:39:52,487 --> 01:39:55,323 as storytellers don't try to escape them. 2044 01:39:55,323 --> 01:39:57,366 We just dig in deeper. 2045 01:39:57,366 --> 01:39:58,743 And in so much as we're doing that, 2046 01:39:58,743 --> 01:40:00,119 we are making the same movie 2047 01:40:00,119 --> 01:40:02,330 and telling the same story repeatedly. 2048 01:40:04,749 --> 01:40:07,418 "Lost Highway" is a step towards "Mulholland Drive," 2049 01:40:07,418 --> 01:40:09,629 which is a step towards "Inland Empire," 2050 01:40:09,629 --> 01:40:12,089 which is a step towards "Twin Peaks: The Return." 2051 01:40:12,089 --> 01:40:15,092 [ Sombre music plays ] 2052 01:40:20,640 --> 01:40:22,850 He's working his way towards that in the same way 2053 01:40:22,850 --> 01:40:24,644 that Terrence Ma lick was working his way 2054 01:40:24,644 --> 01:40:27,021 towards "The Tree of Life" from day one of his career. 2055 01:40:27,021 --> 01:40:30,066 [ Mid-tempo music plays ] 2056 01:40:47,833 --> 01:40:50,002 And once you realise what they're digging towards, 2057 01:40:50,002 --> 01:40:52,380 you can appreciate their body of work in a new light 2058 01:40:52,380 --> 01:40:54,924 because you understand what matters to them. 2059 01:40:59,303 --> 01:41:00,972 I love the idea of digging in deeper 2060 01:41:00,972 --> 01:41:02,515 and hitting the boundaries within the work 2061 01:41:02,515 --> 01:41:04,267 that we've created for ourselves, 2062 01:41:04,267 --> 01:41:07,895 rather than trying to expand the horizons around us. 2063 01:41:07,895 --> 01:41:09,564 I like the comfort of knowing 2064 01:41:09,564 --> 01:41:12,400 that there's always further inward I can go. 2065 01:41:12,400 --> 01:41:14,235 The themes and images that compel us 2066 01:41:14,235 --> 01:41:16,028 are ones we'll keep revisiting, 2067 01:41:16,028 --> 01:41:19,365 re-exploring, reinvestigating, recontextualising, re-everything 2068 01:41:19,365 --> 01:41:21,534 because they're the things that compel us 2069 01:41:21,534 --> 01:41:24,495 to be storytellers in the first place. 2070 01:41:24,495 --> 01:41:27,206 We look to the past while also looking into the future, 2071 01:41:27,206 --> 01:41:30,042 and that is a valuable thing for the culture. 2072 01:41:30,042 --> 01:41:33,004 [ Mid-tempo music plays ] 2073 01:43:03,302 --> 01:43:05,596 The fact that "The Wizard of Oz" and David Lynch 2074 01:43:05,596 --> 01:43:08,391 can go hand in hand and communicate with one another, 2075 01:43:08,391 --> 01:43:10,226 the fact that we can have this conversation 2076 01:43:10,226 --> 01:43:12,561 about ruby slippers and "Twin Peaks" 2077 01:43:12,561 --> 01:43:15,106 is one of the most beautiful things about this medium. 2078 01:43:17,191 --> 01:43:19,527 LYNCH: We go way, way out. 2079 01:43:19,527 --> 01:43:23,030 And we get lost in the field of relativity. 2080 01:43:23,030 --> 01:43:27,535 And the trick is to find your way home. 2081 01:43:27,535 --> 01:43:29,453 You're a beautiful bunch. Here we go. 2082 01:43:29,453 --> 01:43:30,830 On your mark. 2083 01:43:30,830 --> 01:43:32,581 Get set. Go. 2084 01:43:32,581 --> 01:43:34,542 -Auntie Em! -Auntie Em? 2085 01:43:34,542 --> 01:43:35,835 I must have been dreaming. 2086 01:43:35,835 --> 01:43:38,045 It was horrible. We were on Saturdays. 2087 01:43:38,045 --> 01:43:39,797 Andy, you were there. 2088 01:43:39,797 --> 01:43:41,716 The log lady was there. 2089 01:43:41,716 --> 01:43:43,300 And the Man from Another Place was there, too. 2090 01:43:43,300 --> 01:43:46,429 -Saturdays. That is a bad dream. -Ohh. 2091 01:43:46,429 --> 01:43:48,472 Diane, Thursdays at 9:00, 8:00 Central. 2092 01:43:48,472 --> 01:43:50,182 There's no place like home. 2093 01:43:52,935 --> 01:43:55,104 LYNCH: Cut it. Off. 2094 01:43:55,104 --> 01:43:58,107 [ Mid-tempo music plays ] 2095 01:44:04,488 --> 01:44:07,992 MAN: There's no place like home. 2096 01:44:07,992 --> 01:44:09,660 There's no place like home. 2097 01:44:11,829 --> 01:44:14,206 There's no place like home. 2098 01:44:14,206 --> 01:44:17,293 [ Music continues ] 2099 01:45:01,253 --> 01:45:04,256 [ Down-tempo music plays ]