1 00:00:06,632 --> 00:00:10,761 Working in TV news, I would pitch stories about how people were dying in prison 2 00:00:10,844 --> 00:00:13,722 because of COVID and, like, you know, racist AI. 3 00:00:13,805 --> 00:00:18,977 You see what they say no to, and you see what they say yes to and why. 4 00:00:19,061 --> 00:00:23,732 Here's the thing. No one ever wants to be a journalist because of ratings. 5 00:00:23,815 --> 00:00:28,237 Ultimately, the reporters, the producers, the researchers-- 6 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,698 They are 100% doing that from a space of, like, 7 00:00:31,782 --> 00:00:33,534 there's truth that needs to be uncovered here. 8 00:00:33,617 --> 00:00:38,247 But success is defined as ratings. 9 00:00:38,330 --> 00:00:40,082 And it's like Nielsen ratings, which are-- 10 00:00:40,165 --> 00:00:44,545 There's less than 50,000 Nielsen families representing the entire US. 11 00:00:44,628 --> 00:00:46,296 It literally makes me think. I'm like, 12 00:00:46,380 --> 00:00:51,343 "Am I representing what Iranian Muslims watch?" Like, it doesn't… 13 00:00:51,426 --> 00:00:52,719 Are you a Nielsen family? 14 00:00:52,803 --> 00:00:56,765 We were once. Like, no joke, when I was, like, 13. 15 00:00:56,849 --> 00:00:57,975 You'd fill it out. 16 00:00:58,058 --> 00:00:59,768 Like, you'd be like, "Uh-huh, we watched this." 17 00:00:59,852 --> 00:01:02,187 And, like, the thing is, it's like anything else, 18 00:01:02,271 --> 00:01:03,397 like any kind of homework. 19 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,233 At some point, you're like, "Oh, shit, we forgot to fill-- I don't know. 20 00:01:06,316 --> 00:01:08,026 Just say I watched Seinfeld. I don't fucking know." 21 00:01:08,110 --> 00:01:09,820 Right. So, to tie it up, 22 00:01:09,903 --> 00:01:14,741 -the shitty model of news that we are fed… -Yes. 23 00:01:14,825 --> 00:01:21,456 …is based on an antiquated system that is not reflective of who's watching it. 24 00:01:21,540 --> 00:01:22,958 -That's the strange thing. -Yes. 25 00:01:23,041 --> 00:01:26,170 It was my family doing it for, like, seven bucks a month or whatever. 26 00:01:26,253 --> 00:01:28,422 Can I tell you something? And I appreciate this. 27 00:01:28,505 --> 00:01:32,092 That your Muslim family just wrote in Seinfeld. 28 00:01:32,176 --> 00:01:33,552 Because… 29 00:01:34,219 --> 00:01:36,889 I can't tell you how much that elevated my people. 30 00:02:20,724 --> 00:02:21,725 Boom! 31 00:02:22,518 --> 00:02:23,519 Boom! 32 00:02:25,604 --> 00:02:26,813 Hey, everybody. 33 00:02:31,151 --> 00:02:33,237 Thank you very much. Nice to see everybody. 34 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:35,822 Thank you so much for joining us. My name is Jon Stewart. 35 00:02:37,199 --> 00:02:39,451 I gotta tell you something. I am so glad 36 00:02:39,535 --> 00:02:42,621 that you are joining us tonight, of all the shows. 37 00:02:42,704 --> 00:02:46,083 You know I have great respect for each of the-- 38 00:02:46,166 --> 00:02:48,710 I think it's, like, four shows that we've done. 39 00:02:50,212 --> 00:02:52,005 We've done, like, four of them, 40 00:02:52,089 --> 00:02:54,299 like I'm an Etsy store of shows. 41 00:02:55,759 --> 00:02:57,427 I'm knitting each one myself. 42 00:02:57,511 --> 00:02:59,763 I love them all. They're all gems. 43 00:03:03,308 --> 00:03:04,935 Don't patronize me. 44 00:03:06,395 --> 00:03:09,565 But tonight, we're talking about… 45 00:03:13,485 --> 00:03:15,445 the news media and-- 46 00:03:16,864 --> 00:03:17,865 Yeah! 47 00:03:18,699 --> 00:03:19,741 Yeah. 48 00:03:20,909 --> 00:03:27,374 It is for me my bête noire, my white whale, the pea under my mattress. 49 00:03:30,335 --> 00:03:31,712 I'm very bothered by it. 50 00:03:32,754 --> 00:03:36,884 Now, generally our news media has been collected 51 00:03:36,967 --> 00:03:39,845 into two major categories, for the most part. 52 00:03:39,928 --> 00:03:46,059 You got your what they call the mainstream, liberal, corporate media. 53 00:03:47,769 --> 00:03:52,983 And then you got your right-wing, also mainstream, corporate media. 54 00:03:54,234 --> 00:03:56,987 I'm gonna leave Facebook and TikTok for another day. 55 00:03:58,947 --> 00:04:02,117 One side of this media equation believes 56 00:04:02,201 --> 00:04:05,996 they are the purveyors of truth and justice. 57 00:04:06,079 --> 00:04:10,167 The guardians of our democratic republic. 58 00:04:10,876 --> 00:04:14,213 The other side is effective. 59 00:04:19,259 --> 00:04:22,888 Now, we're not gonna talk about right-wing media for this whole program. 60 00:04:22,971 --> 00:04:28,644 We're just gonna show you how fucking good they are at accomplishing their goals. 61 00:04:30,145 --> 00:04:31,855 Let's start with our story 62 00:04:31,939 --> 00:04:34,107 and begin with a gentleman named Christopher Rufo. 63 00:04:34,191 --> 00:04:39,238 Rufo wanted to make critical race theory into a political winner for Republicans. 64 00:04:39,321 --> 00:04:41,657 This was his stated goal. 65 00:04:45,410 --> 00:04:46,870 It's not so easy. 66 00:04:48,121 --> 00:04:49,331 I'm kidding. Have a look. 67 00:04:49,414 --> 00:04:53,460 It's absolutely astonishing how critical race theory has pervaded 68 00:04:53,544 --> 00:04:55,379 every institution in the federal government. 69 00:04:55,462 --> 00:04:59,424 And I call on the president to immediately issue this executive order 70 00:04:59,508 --> 00:05:05,430 and stamp out this destructive, divisive, pseudoscientific ideology at its root. 71 00:05:06,014 --> 00:05:08,892 The fucking guy-- "I call on the president." 72 00:05:08,976 --> 00:05:13,105 Who the fuck-- Let me tell you something. He's the president of the United States. 73 00:05:13,188 --> 00:05:18,151 Christopher Rufo, he goes on that other idiot's show on September 1st 74 00:05:18,235 --> 00:05:20,362 and calls on the president. 75 00:05:20,445 --> 00:05:22,072 Well, guess what? 76 00:05:22,155 --> 00:05:25,659 His words echoed impotently, 77 00:05:26,743 --> 00:05:29,329 all the way to September 17th. 78 00:05:29,413 --> 00:05:36,003 Students in our universities are inundated with critical race theory. 79 00:05:37,337 --> 00:05:43,969 This is a Marxist doctrine holding that America is a wicked and racist nation. 80 00:05:48,557 --> 00:05:51,185 Aren't cult leaders supposed to be charismatic? 81 00:05:54,354 --> 00:05:56,231 That's the weirdest delivery. 82 00:06:01,445 --> 00:06:03,488 This is-- This is… 83 00:06:04,823 --> 00:06:06,408 This is Kool-Aid… 84 00:06:08,493 --> 00:06:11,038 fruity and delicious. 85 00:06:12,623 --> 00:06:14,416 You should drink it. 86 00:06:16,001 --> 00:06:18,170 Not around walls because… 87 00:06:21,632 --> 00:06:23,008 Giant pitcher. 88 00:06:27,054 --> 00:06:32,476 Fucking 16 days from the time that guy went on Fox News and said, 89 00:06:32,559 --> 00:06:35,854 "I call on the president to do something about critical race theory," 90 00:06:35,938 --> 00:06:39,107 to when the president did something about critical race-- 91 00:06:39,191 --> 00:06:42,319 Now, of course, you can't always rely on a president binge-watching your show 92 00:06:42,402 --> 00:06:44,154 and writing down whatever you tell him to do. 93 00:06:44,238 --> 00:06:49,493 So, in this new age of Biden, right-wing media had to work a little harder 94 00:06:49,576 --> 00:06:54,081 on their bespoke harm-to-table critical race theory nonsense. 95 00:06:54,164 --> 00:06:58,126 Kids across America are being force-fed the critical race theory poison. 96 00:06:58,210 --> 00:06:59,253 You have to get organized. 97 00:06:59,336 --> 00:07:01,338 Turn around and say, "I don't want Marxists-- 98 00:07:01,421 --> 00:07:03,048 I don't want communists teaching my kid." 99 00:07:03,131 --> 00:07:05,467 Complain vocally, loudly. 100 00:07:05,551 --> 00:07:07,261 Shame on you! 101 00:07:07,344 --> 00:07:08,554 So you're the racist. 102 00:07:08,637 --> 00:07:12,266 This is an unlawful arrest! I have a First Amendment right-- 103 00:07:12,349 --> 00:07:13,559 Parents have had it, Jack. 104 00:07:13,642 --> 00:07:16,895 I don't really think I've seen something spur up with so much passion 105 00:07:16,979 --> 00:07:18,188 out of the grassroots. 106 00:07:18,272 --> 00:07:21,149 It's not grassroots. You fucking started it. 107 00:07:21,733 --> 00:07:24,653 You lit the fire, and then, as it was warmed up, 108 00:07:24,736 --> 00:07:27,322 were like, "I've never seen a fire like this. This is a--" 109 00:07:27,406 --> 00:07:31,702 It's like when a dog vomits on a carpet 110 00:07:33,287 --> 00:07:34,746 and then eats it… 111 00:07:37,124 --> 00:07:38,458 and looks at you like… 112 00:07:41,003 --> 00:07:42,921 Can I get a treat for cleaning that up? 113 00:07:43,005 --> 00:07:44,006 No! 114 00:07:44,673 --> 00:07:47,509 You made the mess in the first place. 115 00:07:48,218 --> 00:07:53,724 Suddenly we're banning CRT, we're restricting race teaching, 116 00:07:53,807 --> 00:07:55,392 we're banning books. 117 00:07:55,475 --> 00:07:59,146 And Florida has legislation to make it illegal 118 00:07:59,229 --> 00:08:02,649 for a white person to feel uncomfortable. 119 00:08:03,942 --> 00:08:05,152 In Florida. 120 00:08:07,863 --> 00:08:09,865 Good luck arresting humidity. 121 00:08:15,662 --> 00:08:18,332 My balls are sticking to my leg. 122 00:08:20,167 --> 00:08:21,460 Officer! 123 00:08:25,339 --> 00:08:27,508 Remove-- All right. 124 00:08:29,134 --> 00:08:31,929 That would be such a bad call to get over the radio. 125 00:08:32,554 --> 00:08:35,640 Yeah, we got a sticky ball situation down in… 126 00:08:38,184 --> 00:08:39,394 in Ocala. 127 00:08:40,979 --> 00:08:42,481 The right-wing media, 128 00:08:42,563 --> 00:08:46,610 working seamlessly with their political arm, 129 00:08:46,693 --> 00:08:48,570 made that happen. 130 00:08:48,654 --> 00:08:49,655 Well, you know, Brian, 131 00:08:49,738 --> 00:08:52,282 we were the only channel that covered critical race theory, 132 00:08:52,366 --> 00:08:53,909 and that became a big issue. 133 00:08:57,704 --> 00:08:59,248 Sure did. 134 00:09:00,207 --> 00:09:03,460 But that's how fucking good these guys are. That's how good that-- 135 00:09:03,544 --> 00:09:07,214 And if you're gonna battle this coordinated effort, 136 00:09:07,297 --> 00:09:09,842 political and media together, 137 00:09:10,676 --> 00:09:12,010 we're gonna need a hero. 138 00:09:13,303 --> 00:09:18,475 A hero brave enough to heed the call of a society in grave danger 139 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:22,521 of succumbing to CRT panic and "Let's go, Brandon" memes. 140 00:09:25,732 --> 00:09:27,234 Who's that hero? 141 00:09:27,317 --> 00:09:30,988 There is no democracy without journalism. 142 00:09:31,071 --> 00:09:32,948 Our job is to speak truth to power. 143 00:09:33,031 --> 00:09:36,910 Our job is to shine a light in dark corners, to hold the powerful to account. 144 00:09:36,994 --> 00:09:39,371 Because knowing empowers us. 145 00:09:40,497 --> 00:09:42,541 Knowing helps us decide. 146 00:09:43,750 --> 00:09:46,587 Knowing keeps us free. 147 00:09:59,141 --> 00:10:00,434 I mean, seriously. 148 00:10:02,769 --> 00:10:06,940 But in an age of weaponized mis- and disinformation, 149 00:10:07,024 --> 00:10:09,234 secrecy and political polarization, 150 00:10:10,569 --> 00:10:14,114 the one group that stands at the ready to shine light into that darkness 151 00:10:14,198 --> 00:10:16,241 so that the good ship America 152 00:10:16,325 --> 00:10:21,038 needn't stub its toe on the post-midnight snack of fascism-- 153 00:10:21,121 --> 00:10:22,456 I'm mixing metaphors. 154 00:10:25,292 --> 00:10:26,627 But the point is this. 155 00:10:27,377 --> 00:10:34,176 The fourth estate has claimed that they stand ready twixt America and peril. 156 00:10:34,259 --> 00:10:36,762 A bulwark to creeping fascism. 157 00:10:37,346 --> 00:10:41,225 Our media, they are the watchers on the wall. 158 00:10:42,392 --> 00:10:44,811 No, that's the wrong-- Okay, that's-- 159 00:10:44,895 --> 00:10:47,940 That's the wrong watcher and the wrong wall. 160 00:10:49,358 --> 00:10:51,193 That's the wall. That's the watcher. 161 00:10:52,736 --> 00:10:53,737 Yes. 162 00:10:53,820 --> 00:10:56,698 Thank you. "To the ramparts, heroes!" 163 00:10:56,782 --> 00:11:00,035 Three, two, one! 164 00:11:00,118 --> 00:11:02,704 Happy New Year! 165 00:11:12,339 --> 00:11:13,924 Well, America, it's been a pleasure. 166 00:11:15,133 --> 00:11:16,134 We're fucked. 167 00:11:17,177 --> 00:11:18,178 Because unfortunately, 168 00:11:18,262 --> 00:11:21,473 if they are the one thing that stands between America and chaos, 169 00:11:21,557 --> 00:11:22,975 we are in trouble. 170 00:11:23,058 --> 00:11:28,230 Because rarely has there been an institution that has such a distance 171 00:11:28,313 --> 00:11:32,234 between its aspirations and its execution. 172 00:11:32,901 --> 00:11:33,944 And thus, 173 00:11:34,027 --> 00:11:38,991 "The Problem with the Media." 174 00:11:40,075 --> 00:11:42,744 The media keeps informing us 175 00:11:42,828 --> 00:11:46,582 how incredibly important they are to our survival. 176 00:11:47,332 --> 00:11:50,294 Because knowing keeps us free. 177 00:11:50,377 --> 00:11:53,297 But when given crucial informational tasks, 178 00:11:53,380 --> 00:11:56,008 they instead build us prisons of, 179 00:11:56,091 --> 00:11:58,594 "What the fuck are you people talking about?" 180 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:00,929 For instance, a few years back, 181 00:12:01,013 --> 00:12:03,515 there was concern that the president of these United States 182 00:12:03,599 --> 00:12:07,394 may have outsourced our electoral integrity to a foreign power… 183 00:12:08,395 --> 00:12:10,564 not of the allied persuasion. 184 00:12:12,232 --> 00:12:14,359 And had fired his top cop 185 00:12:14,443 --> 00:12:17,487 rather than risk the subterfuge being exposed. 186 00:12:18,405 --> 00:12:22,075 Journey back with me to 20 aught 17. 187 00:12:26,413 --> 00:12:29,082 Nothing? We don't have any of the-- All right. 188 00:12:29,166 --> 00:12:33,504 The Department of Justice reveals that they will appoint a special counsel 189 00:12:33,587 --> 00:12:36,965 to now oversee the FBI investigation into Russian meddling 190 00:12:37,049 --> 00:12:38,759 and any possible collusion. 191 00:12:38,842 --> 00:12:42,471 Former FBI director Robert Mueller will now lead the investigation. 192 00:12:44,890 --> 00:12:46,016 Well done. 193 00:12:46,099 --> 00:12:47,267 You told us what was occurring, 194 00:12:47,351 --> 00:12:49,603 you gave it a tonal gravity that I thought was appropriate, 195 00:12:49,686 --> 00:12:53,649 and it was delivered with just the right soupçon of handsome. 196 00:12:54,691 --> 00:12:56,235 It was a very handsome delivery. 197 00:12:57,110 --> 00:12:58,946 So, what happens now? 198 00:12:59,029 --> 00:13:01,782 One, a special counsel truly works in secret. 199 00:13:01,865 --> 00:13:04,660 And if any special counsel is gonna obey that rule, 200 00:13:04,743 --> 00:13:05,619 it's a guy like Bob Mueller. 201 00:13:05,702 --> 00:13:07,746 Virtually everything that happens with the special counsel 202 00:13:07,829 --> 00:13:08,830 happens behind closed doors. 203 00:13:08,914 --> 00:13:11,291 The special counsel investigation, of course, is secretive. 204 00:13:11,375 --> 00:13:12,793 Robert Mueller does not leak. 205 00:13:12,876 --> 00:13:15,504 Mueller runs a very tight ship. 206 00:13:16,839 --> 00:13:18,215 Once again, I-- 207 00:13:18,298 --> 00:13:19,842 I'm sorry. I congratulate you. Well done. 208 00:13:19,925 --> 00:13:23,470 The special counsel works in secret. That's factual. 209 00:13:23,554 --> 00:13:27,182 Bob Mueller is tight-lipped. That's slightly subjective, but still. 210 00:13:27,266 --> 00:13:34,273 This segment leaves our democracy's pulse oximeter at a healthy 97, 98. 211 00:13:34,356 --> 00:13:35,357 Bobby Mueller. 212 00:13:36,441 --> 00:13:38,277 "Bobby Three Sticks," as agents called him. 213 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:40,445 -Why'd they call him that? -Robert Swan Mueller III. 214 00:13:43,699 --> 00:13:46,201 And slowly, the oxygen drops. 215 00:13:47,578 --> 00:13:50,497 And thus began the turn to darkness. 216 00:13:50,581 --> 00:13:54,209 Let the overplaying of the media's hand commence. 217 00:13:54,293 --> 00:13:55,586 If you do have something to hide, 218 00:13:55,669 --> 00:13:58,547 Mueller is probably the last person you would want to be investigating you. 219 00:13:58,630 --> 00:14:00,507 Bob Mueller is gonna investigate this aggressively, 220 00:14:00,591 --> 00:14:02,426 and if there's any wrongdoing, he's gonna find it. 221 00:14:02,509 --> 00:14:05,679 Director Mueller is gonna get to the bottom of it. 222 00:14:05,762 --> 00:14:06,597 He will find it. 223 00:14:06,680 --> 00:14:10,475 If you have a kid and you despair that there's not a hero in America, 224 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:13,562 wake up bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. Robert Mueller's it. 225 00:14:13,645 --> 00:14:18,150 The republic just got a chance of saving itself. 226 00:14:19,234 --> 00:14:21,570 We're not on fucking Tatooine. 227 00:14:23,739 --> 00:14:26,200 We're not looking for a child of prophecy. 228 00:14:26,283 --> 00:14:30,829 We need a competent prosecutor working diligently to find the facts. 229 00:14:30,913 --> 00:14:34,833 And we don't need you narrating and overblowing 230 00:14:34,917 --> 00:14:38,837 and elevating the stakes of every moment. 231 00:14:38,921 --> 00:14:41,840 This is Watergate. 232 00:14:41,924 --> 00:14:43,091 Watergate, basically. 233 00:14:43,175 --> 00:14:46,053 The peril to the president is just as great. 234 00:14:46,136 --> 00:14:47,554 Is this bigger than Watergate? 235 00:14:47,638 --> 00:14:50,516 In some ways, this could be worse than Watergate. 236 00:14:50,599 --> 00:14:54,144 Well, you know, Bernstein, certainly the coverage of it will be. 237 00:14:56,939 --> 00:15:01,109 Even though it was already explained very clearly… 238 00:15:01,193 --> 00:15:04,821 "The special counsel operates in secret." 239 00:15:04,905 --> 00:15:08,075 "Bob Mueller plays it close to the vest." 240 00:15:08,158 --> 00:15:14,790 It did not stop the public from being dead center in the information blast zone. 241 00:15:15,290 --> 00:15:17,251 A bombshell from Robert Mueller. 242 00:15:17,334 --> 00:15:19,211 This is not some Friday night news dump. 243 00:15:19,294 --> 00:15:22,005 This is a Friday night explosion. 244 00:15:22,089 --> 00:15:23,423 Bombshell after bombshell. 245 00:15:23,507 --> 00:15:26,426 …latest bombshell in an arsenal of bombshells… 246 00:15:26,510 --> 00:15:28,345 Robert Mueller's twin bombshells. 247 00:15:28,428 --> 00:15:30,806 Bombshell. Bombshell. Bombshell. 248 00:15:30,889 --> 00:15:32,975 …a potentially huge bombshell… 249 00:15:33,058 --> 00:15:35,602 …bombshell from The New York Times. 250 00:15:35,686 --> 00:15:37,104 The paper of record is reporting 251 00:15:37,187 --> 00:15:40,816 special counsel Robert Mueller has dozens of questions for President Trump. 252 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:43,193 Bombshell, bombshell. 253 00:15:43,902 --> 00:15:49,491 Detective has questions. Bombshell. Hungry people like food. Bombshell. 254 00:15:51,118 --> 00:15:52,327 I also have a question. 255 00:15:52,411 --> 00:15:54,538 Do you think we are fucking stupid? 256 00:15:56,081 --> 00:16:00,043 That's the responsible, measured way they handled something they actually knew. 257 00:16:01,336 --> 00:16:03,255 Then it started getting weird. 258 00:16:03,338 --> 00:16:07,593 Folks, this could be a game changer if this report is true. 259 00:16:07,676 --> 00:16:12,139 On one to ten, how big are these developments? If, in your view, true. 260 00:16:12,222 --> 00:16:15,684 No one should underestimate how big this is if it's true. 261 00:16:15,767 --> 00:16:17,352 Really big deal if true. 262 00:16:17,436 --> 00:16:21,648 If true, is it a big deal? What else does it speak of? 263 00:16:21,732 --> 00:16:25,777 If it is true, it would appear to be significant evidence of collusion. 264 00:16:25,861 --> 00:16:27,112 If true-- 265 00:16:27,196 --> 00:16:29,948 If the report is proven true-- We have not confirmed it. 266 00:16:30,032 --> 00:16:32,576 No other major news organization has confirmed it. 267 00:16:32,659 --> 00:16:36,413 But if it's true, what does it mean, big picture, for the Trump presidency? 268 00:16:36,997 --> 00:16:38,498 Well, the Trump presidency would be over. 269 00:16:38,582 --> 00:16:40,834 Is there a multiplier you use 270 00:16:40,918 --> 00:16:46,673 that X times what we know equals what you imagine Mueller knows? 271 00:16:47,341 --> 00:16:48,967 Yes, yes, there is. There-- 272 00:16:49,051 --> 00:16:50,636 I know this equation. 273 00:16:50,719 --> 00:16:54,973 It's the thing when you make your calculator spell "boobies." 274 00:16:56,183 --> 00:16:59,770 You press it in, you press the thing, and then you turn it over. 275 00:17:00,771 --> 00:17:04,650 And you show your friends it says "boobies." 276 00:17:06,944 --> 00:17:10,531 There were so many "if trues" in there, it was like a high-stakes tarot reading. 277 00:17:10,614 --> 00:17:11,698 But you know what? 278 00:17:12,657 --> 00:17:15,327 It's not like any other important news happened in 2019. 279 00:17:15,410 --> 00:17:18,664 That's why they had the resources to do things like this. 280 00:17:18,747 --> 00:17:21,791 The CNN stakeout team says they haven't seen Mueller leave for lunch today. 281 00:17:21,875 --> 00:17:23,126 He usually does. 282 00:17:26,128 --> 00:17:27,506 My God, no lunch. 283 00:17:29,216 --> 00:17:31,301 Could he have packed a sammie from home? 284 00:17:35,389 --> 00:17:38,809 But, ultimately, after two years of speculation and innuendo 285 00:17:38,892 --> 00:17:42,896 and flat-out bullshit, they were sure of one thing. 286 00:17:42,980 --> 00:17:46,149 If you're Donald Trump, the news does not appear to be good. 287 00:17:46,233 --> 00:17:50,237 "The walls are closing in" might be a better way to put it. 288 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:51,613 …walls closing in on him. 289 00:17:51,697 --> 00:17:54,032 -Walls are closing in-- -The walls closing in-- 290 00:17:54,116 --> 00:17:57,077 -…closer and closer… -…closer and closer… 291 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:58,829 …closer and closer to the president. 292 00:17:58,912 --> 00:18:01,331 It does appear like we're getting closer. Closer to the top. 293 00:18:03,417 --> 00:18:06,295 That actually didn't appear like they were getting closer. That last one. 294 00:18:06,378 --> 00:18:08,380 It seemed like there was a big gap that he could get out. 295 00:18:08,463 --> 00:18:10,215 It looked like he could get out the top on that one. 296 00:18:10,299 --> 00:18:11,925 The other ones, I thought yes. 297 00:18:13,343 --> 00:18:16,180 And the news media promised, 298 00:18:16,263 --> 00:18:19,933 promised that it was gonna be a finale to remember. 299 00:18:20,017 --> 00:18:22,686 Now there is talk of indicting the president. 300 00:18:22,769 --> 00:18:25,480 Now there is talk of jail time for the president. 301 00:18:25,564 --> 00:18:27,316 This is going to be earth-shattering. 302 00:18:27,399 --> 00:18:30,611 There is just no way that this is not going to be 303 00:18:30,694 --> 00:18:33,864 one of the most significant events in the history of the United States. 304 00:18:33,947 --> 00:18:37,701 If anybody from the Trump family, extended family, is going to be indicted, 305 00:18:37,784 --> 00:18:40,704 it would be in the final act. 306 00:18:40,787 --> 00:18:42,039 -The noose is tightening. -They are-- 307 00:18:42,122 --> 00:18:43,540 And that people might go to jail. 308 00:18:43,624 --> 00:18:45,626 -You're exactly right. Th-- -For the rest of their lives. 309 00:18:48,545 --> 00:18:49,630 If true. 310 00:18:50,881 --> 00:18:55,594 And then, after two years of just edging themselves to a Mueller climax… 311 00:19:02,434 --> 00:19:05,103 Interesting audience of fetishists we have in here. 312 00:19:07,898 --> 00:19:09,942 That's kind of a bombshell in and of itself. 313 00:19:11,652 --> 00:19:15,364 There's a lot of knowing edging joke people in here. 314 00:19:19,368 --> 00:19:20,744 The-- 315 00:19:22,788 --> 00:19:24,915 Dirty, dirty motherfuckers. 316 00:19:26,458 --> 00:19:27,668 You know, you can't… 317 00:19:29,795 --> 00:19:32,089 When they're wearing masks, you can't really tell. 318 00:19:33,423 --> 00:19:36,009 It's like the opposite of Eyes Wide Shut. It's just-- 319 00:19:37,469 --> 00:19:39,137 I don't even know what we're talking about anymore. 320 00:19:39,221 --> 00:19:40,514 Yes. 321 00:19:40,597 --> 00:19:42,891 Getting back to our subject at hand. 322 00:19:42,975 --> 00:19:46,436 After two years of edging themselves to a Mueller climax… 323 00:19:48,939 --> 00:19:51,483 the day finally arrived. 324 00:19:51,567 --> 00:19:54,736 CNN's special coverage of the release of the Mueller report 325 00:19:54,820 --> 00:19:56,905 begins tomorrow morning, 6:00 a.m. 326 00:19:56,989 --> 00:19:59,700 Ticktock, ticktock. We should have a Mueller clock down there. 327 00:19:59,783 --> 00:20:01,493 -Right. -We're just about two hours away-- 328 00:20:01,577 --> 00:20:03,537 This is people waiting for the report. 329 00:20:03,620 --> 00:20:05,080 It is 11:05 a.m. 330 00:20:05,163 --> 00:20:08,083 The attorney general said that at 11:00 a.m. eastern time 331 00:20:08,166 --> 00:20:10,669 this report would be handed to Congress. 332 00:20:10,752 --> 00:20:11,920 Melber, do you have it? 333 00:20:12,004 --> 00:20:13,797 It is up. Is it online? 334 00:20:13,881 --> 00:20:16,341 -And it's been posted. It is online. -Okay. 335 00:20:18,343 --> 00:20:21,096 You can go to www.justice.gov 336 00:20:21,180 --> 00:20:25,434 and I think it's /storage/report.pdf. 337 00:20:25,517 --> 00:20:28,562 Be ready in terms of toner and paper. 338 00:20:33,525 --> 00:20:34,902 We have to print it ourselves? 339 00:20:36,737 --> 00:20:39,281 NBC doesn't have a Kinko's? Is that what you're telling me? 340 00:20:39,364 --> 00:20:44,286 You finally have real breaking news, and I have to get it myself? 341 00:20:44,369 --> 00:20:45,787 I'm gonna read it live here with you. 342 00:20:46,872 --> 00:20:50,334 Kind sir, I beg of you, no. 343 00:20:51,084 --> 00:20:53,670 What I'm reading here is the beginning of the treatment of this. 344 00:20:53,754 --> 00:20:56,465 And we're gonna go as we go live today, Brian. 345 00:20:56,548 --> 00:20:58,842 But Bob Mueller defining, in order-- 346 00:20:58,926 --> 00:21:03,931 On page 76 of volume two, Mueller offers a theory. 347 00:21:04,014 --> 00:21:05,349 The president, quote-- 348 00:21:05,432 --> 00:21:09,853 "The president wanted to protect himself from an investigation into his campaign." 349 00:21:10,729 --> 00:21:12,731 Okay. Now, keep listening. 350 00:21:12,814 --> 00:21:15,359 448 pages. Who can claim victory? 351 00:21:21,031 --> 00:21:24,368 He said at the end, "It's 400 pages. 352 00:21:25,577 --> 00:21:27,412 Who can declare victory here?" 353 00:21:29,206 --> 00:21:30,749 I believe Satan can. 354 00:21:32,459 --> 00:21:37,798 You motherfuckers spent two years filled with breaking bombshells 355 00:21:37,881 --> 00:21:39,758 and urgent explosions 356 00:21:39,842 --> 00:21:43,762 and teed up a season finale for the ages. 357 00:21:43,846 --> 00:21:50,394 A noose-tightened, closed-walled, family-style jailgasm. 358 00:21:51,144 --> 00:21:56,608 And all we got was a fucking book report that we had to print ourselves. 359 00:21:59,945 --> 00:22:03,490 I owe the producers of Lost an apology. 360 00:22:05,450 --> 00:22:12,040 This was the worst finale… ever. 361 00:22:12,875 --> 00:22:15,794 And maybe it would have landed more dramatically 362 00:22:15,878 --> 00:22:21,592 if you hadn't already reported on Trump AG Bill Barr's Mueller report SparkNotes 363 00:22:21,675 --> 00:22:22,968 a month earlier. 364 00:22:23,051 --> 00:22:24,761 Major victory for President Trump. 365 00:22:24,845 --> 00:22:26,930 The summary now from the attorney general, who said, 366 00:22:27,014 --> 00:22:30,350 "Mueller and his team found no collusion, no conspiracy." 367 00:22:30,434 --> 00:22:33,145 Big, big win for this president. 368 00:22:33,228 --> 00:22:34,897 All the questions surrounded the president-- 369 00:22:34,980 --> 00:22:36,857 Did he obstruct justice? They just cleared him. 370 00:22:36,940 --> 00:22:37,900 They've cleared the president. 371 00:22:38,734 --> 00:22:42,404 And the craziest part is, throughout the entire time, 372 00:22:42,487 --> 00:22:45,949 great reporters were doing impressive work, 373 00:22:46,033 --> 00:22:47,743 but you wouldn't know it 374 00:22:47,826 --> 00:22:54,208 because it was all smothered in so much news cum. 375 00:23:06,261 --> 00:23:10,140 And if anything is going to kill our democracy, 376 00:23:11,225 --> 00:23:13,393 it's gonna be news cum. 377 00:23:15,354 --> 00:23:16,772 Take a quick look at this. 378 00:23:17,981 --> 00:23:19,441 Good evening. We start with breaking news. 379 00:23:19,525 --> 00:23:20,984 -Breaking news. -Breaking news. 380 00:23:21,068 --> 00:23:22,027 -We make… -…money… 381 00:23:22,110 --> 00:23:23,237 -…when you… -…watch the news. 382 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:24,655 -So our… -…only goal… 383 00:23:24,738 --> 00:23:25,614 -…is to… -…try to keep… 384 00:23:25,697 --> 00:23:26,698 -…you… -…watching. 385 00:23:27,699 --> 00:23:29,952 -We, the media… -…want you… 386 00:23:30,035 --> 00:23:32,037 -…afraid and… -…angry at one another. 387 00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:33,539 -We wanna… -…stir up trouble. 388 00:23:33,622 --> 00:23:34,915 -We do that… -…through stories… 389 00:23:34,998 --> 00:23:36,708 -…promoting… -…fear and outrage. 390 00:23:36,792 --> 00:23:38,377 Every night. This is what we do. 391 00:23:39,294 --> 00:23:41,630 -Plus, we have… -…some snazzy graphics for you with… 392 00:23:41,713 --> 00:23:42,798 …all the bells and whistles… 393 00:23:42,881 --> 00:23:43,924 -…so we can… -…convince you that… 394 00:23:44,007 --> 00:23:45,425 -…every story… -…is urgent… 395 00:23:45,509 --> 00:23:47,177 -…even if it isn't true… -…because… 396 00:23:47,261 --> 00:23:49,513 -…it helps make sure that… -…our ratings are higher than ever. 397 00:23:49,596 --> 00:23:51,765 Right? I mean, it's been easy money for so long. 398 00:23:56,436 --> 00:23:57,437 Hello. 399 00:24:01,233 --> 00:24:05,445 Welcome back now. I hope you enjoyed that. 400 00:24:05,529 --> 00:24:11,243 The media is such an important part of a democracy's immune system. 401 00:24:11,326 --> 00:24:15,789 But can the saviors of our democracy be saved themselves? 402 00:24:16,373 --> 00:24:18,709 We've convened a panel of media insiders 403 00:24:18,792 --> 00:24:23,130 to talk more about why this happens and what we can do to hopefully fix it. 404 00:24:23,213 --> 00:24:26,967 We've got Chris Stirewalt, who is a former politics editor at Fox News, 405 00:24:27,050 --> 00:24:29,011 and now he's a contributing editor at The Dispatch. 406 00:24:29,094 --> 00:24:33,515 We've got Sean McLaughlin, vice president of news at E.W. Scripps, 407 00:24:33,599 --> 00:24:35,017 which owns 60 local news stations. 408 00:24:35,100 --> 00:24:36,101 And joining us remotely, 409 00:24:36,185 --> 00:24:39,438 Soledad O'Brien, who is a former anchor at CNN and NBC 410 00:24:39,521 --> 00:24:42,399 and now founded her own multiplatform production company. 411 00:24:42,482 --> 00:24:45,194 Thank you guys so much for joining us. 412 00:24:48,197 --> 00:24:54,578 The reason why I chose the Mueller report to kind of do the autopsy on was 413 00:24:54,661 --> 00:24:57,915 they talked a lot about the disappointment in the Mueller report, 414 00:24:57,998 --> 00:25:03,545 but that disappointment was the fruit of the seed that they planted. 415 00:25:04,129 --> 00:25:10,385 And doesn't that kind of reporting overwhelm and cancel out 416 00:25:10,469 --> 00:25:16,433 all the other really interesting and smart and considered reporting that exists? 417 00:25:17,184 --> 00:25:20,854 The problem is that we've become moral imbeciles 418 00:25:20,938 --> 00:25:25,442 as we are being spoon-fed little pieces of outrage day by day. 419 00:25:25,526 --> 00:25:27,444 No, stay with the story. No, stay with the story. 420 00:25:27,528 --> 00:25:30,239 You can't lose any number. That's the problem. 421 00:25:30,322 --> 00:25:33,242 The death knell is if your numbers go down. 422 00:25:33,325 --> 00:25:36,537 That's why we only get one story at a time. 423 00:25:36,620 --> 00:25:38,956 Producers know that that will work and that will rate, 424 00:25:39,039 --> 00:25:41,375 so we're gonna stick with the thing that people are expecting 425 00:25:41,458 --> 00:25:42,459 and that they know. 426 00:25:42,543 --> 00:25:44,962 'Cause if you take it away from them, they may get mad, 427 00:25:45,045 --> 00:25:47,673 the number may go down, and they may go someplace else to get it. 428 00:25:47,756 --> 00:25:51,718 So as long as the delta-- the ratings increase from yesterday 429 00:25:51,802 --> 00:25:54,471 keeps going, you're gonna obviously keep doing that story, 430 00:25:54,555 --> 00:25:56,265 but you've gotta milk it a little bit more. 431 00:25:56,348 --> 00:26:00,102 You know, you get a minute-by-minute ratings printout. 432 00:26:00,185 --> 00:26:01,895 You know exactly what your-- 433 00:26:01,979 --> 00:26:04,189 You get a minute-by-minute ratings printout at CNN? 434 00:26:04,273 --> 00:26:05,774 Everywhere, not just at CNN. 435 00:26:05,858 --> 00:26:08,652 And it's called the minute-by-minutes. You know exactly-- 436 00:26:08,735 --> 00:26:12,114 You can tell, what story was I in when the ratings went up 437 00:26:12,197 --> 00:26:15,576 and what story-- Look, at the end of the hour we lost a bunch of people. 438 00:26:15,659 --> 00:26:18,287 Whatever that was, figure out, we should never do that again. 439 00:26:18,370 --> 00:26:20,205 -They will say it explicitly? -Yes. 440 00:26:20,289 --> 00:26:21,498 They will say that's a dog. 441 00:26:21,582 --> 00:26:26,503 People left on that Afghanistan story, so fuck that. 442 00:26:26,587 --> 00:26:29,214 -We're not doing that again. -We can't lead with Afghanistan. 443 00:26:29,298 --> 00:26:30,340 It just kills us. 444 00:26:30,424 --> 00:26:32,885 We can't lead with Afghanistan. Look at those numbers. 445 00:26:32,968 --> 00:26:37,306 I think what people don't realize is, it's a ratings-driven business. 446 00:26:38,015 --> 00:26:40,517 But it's also driven by meetings. 447 00:26:40,601 --> 00:26:44,271 People have meetings and make decisions every day 448 00:26:44,813 --> 00:26:48,734 that affect the tone, tenor and direction of coverage. 449 00:26:49,234 --> 00:26:50,694 -Is that spoken about… -Yeah. 450 00:26:50,777 --> 00:26:55,574 …explicitly in the newsroom like when you were at CNN? 451 00:26:55,657 --> 00:26:57,159 Yeah, there are tons of meetings. 452 00:26:57,242 --> 00:26:59,036 You have meetings that set the agenda for the network, 453 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,079 that set the agenda for the morning shows, 454 00:27:01,163 --> 00:27:03,415 that are gonna set the evening show agendas. 455 00:27:03,498 --> 00:27:05,667 You have to divvy up who's gonna have which guests, 456 00:27:05,751 --> 00:27:09,296 because you can't have everybody shared on every single show. 457 00:27:09,379 --> 00:27:12,049 And then the shows themselves have specific meetings. 458 00:27:12,132 --> 00:27:14,718 What are we gonna start with? What are we gonna end with? 459 00:27:14,801 --> 00:27:16,553 Who's the guest? How long do they get? 460 00:27:16,637 --> 00:27:19,765 I think this idea of "You know, hey, we just report the news" 461 00:27:19,848 --> 00:27:24,394 is ridiculous, because of course it's a zero-sum game. 462 00:27:24,478 --> 00:27:26,355 If you're covering something, 463 00:27:26,438 --> 00:27:29,191 then that means you're not giving coverage to something else. 464 00:27:29,274 --> 00:27:31,151 Right. It strikes me that Fox… 465 00:27:31,735 --> 00:27:33,028 You worked there for a while. 466 00:27:33,111 --> 00:27:36,365 You were-- You removed yourself from it after you-- 467 00:27:36,448 --> 00:27:38,408 -Well, they removed me. -They removed you. 468 00:27:38,492 --> 00:27:40,786 -For those of you who don't know-- -They shot me out of a cannon. 469 00:27:40,869 --> 00:27:41,954 Chris-- 470 00:27:42,746 --> 00:27:44,122 He was on the election desk. 471 00:27:44,206 --> 00:27:46,250 He called Arizona for Biden 472 00:27:46,333 --> 00:27:50,045 because Biden had gotten more votes there… 473 00:27:51,922 --> 00:27:54,716 which was an enormous error in judgment. 474 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:56,635 -And I think we all agree-- -Our bad, our bad. 475 00:27:58,554 --> 00:28:01,223 With Fox, in some respects, during the election 476 00:28:01,306 --> 00:28:03,851 they got primaried from the right to some extent. 477 00:28:03,934 --> 00:28:05,561 OAN and Newsmax came in and said, 478 00:28:05,644 --> 00:28:08,647 "You think that's crazy? Listen to this." 479 00:28:08,730 --> 00:28:12,818 And it looks like Fox, after being primaried from the right, went, 480 00:28:13,610 --> 00:28:14,444 "We're gonna-- 481 00:28:14,528 --> 00:28:18,282 We're just gonna knock the legs out from under our competitors 482 00:28:18,365 --> 00:28:22,619 by just embracing that in a much more pure way." 483 00:28:22,703 --> 00:28:26,748 The truth is, social media provides a morphine drip 484 00:28:26,832 --> 00:28:28,542 for these producers to keep them like, 485 00:28:28,625 --> 00:28:30,502 "Okay, we're in the zone. This is what the people want." 486 00:28:30,586 --> 00:28:31,962 They're following social media. 487 00:28:32,045 --> 00:28:36,550 They're actually on Twitter and Facebook, going, 488 00:28:36,633 --> 00:28:38,886 "What are these people up in arms about?" 489 00:28:38,969 --> 00:28:40,679 That's right. And they can say in a meeting, 490 00:28:40,762 --> 00:28:42,764 "This is really clicking today. This is really going. 491 00:28:42,848 --> 00:28:44,641 This got a bunch"-- Holy crokinole. 492 00:28:44,725 --> 00:28:47,186 You can see a television news story in which people are like, 493 00:28:47,269 --> 00:28:50,606 "This idiot said this about this idiot on Twitter," 494 00:28:50,689 --> 00:28:52,316 and they treat it like it's a whole news story. 495 00:28:52,399 --> 00:28:54,818 So it has permeated the thinking in very profound ways, 496 00:28:54,902 --> 00:28:56,069 and it's made us dumber. 497 00:28:56,570 --> 00:29:00,407 I really like that you used the expression "holy crokinole." 498 00:29:01,742 --> 00:29:03,994 It is an expression I've never heard. 499 00:29:04,494 --> 00:29:09,499 And I will be adding it to my vocabulary to replace "fuck." 500 00:29:13,337 --> 00:29:19,801 But it strikes me that Fox wouldn't be as "that's a dog" news-wise. 501 00:29:19,885 --> 00:29:25,182 It's more like, "That doesn't fit our audience's bloodlust." 502 00:29:25,265 --> 00:29:30,229 I think the two things go to the same end in this way. 503 00:29:30,312 --> 00:29:33,232 Fox is a much-- I was there for ten years. 504 00:29:33,315 --> 00:29:34,316 When I started, 505 00:29:34,399 --> 00:29:36,985 in a news division meeting, if you talked about the ratings, 506 00:29:37,069 --> 00:29:38,612 it would have been gross. 507 00:29:38,695 --> 00:29:40,656 By the time I left, I heard show-- 508 00:29:40,739 --> 00:29:43,367 I heard producers and people in the news division 509 00:29:43,450 --> 00:29:45,494 talking openly about ratings this, ratings that. 510 00:29:45,577 --> 00:29:48,121 -Did they get the minute-by-minutes? -Some people did. 511 00:29:48,205 --> 00:29:52,251 And that actually-- The diffusion of those reports changed over time, 512 00:29:52,334 --> 00:29:54,503 and it became much more ratings-driven. 513 00:29:54,586 --> 00:30:00,634 So, basically, what the news is saying to us is, "This isn't our fault. 514 00:30:00,717 --> 00:30:02,261 It's your fault." 515 00:30:02,344 --> 00:30:07,224 They are outsourcing the responsibility of news gathering 516 00:30:07,307 --> 00:30:11,353 and news telling to-- 517 00:30:11,436 --> 00:30:14,314 "Well, if they would watch better stuff, we'd show them that." 518 00:30:14,398 --> 00:30:16,149 But that's not the audience. 519 00:30:16,233 --> 00:30:17,943 -They're connected. -That's not the audience. 520 00:30:18,026 --> 00:30:20,988 That's someone's view of the audience, right? 521 00:30:21,071 --> 00:30:24,825 There's someone in an office who says, "Listen. Young people. 522 00:30:24,908 --> 00:30:27,452 -I guess that means"-- -No, I-- I understand that. 523 00:30:27,536 --> 00:30:31,248 But it takes a long time to figure out what the audience wants. 524 00:30:31,331 --> 00:30:33,834 And I-- When I first started at The Daily Show, right? 525 00:30:34,710 --> 00:30:38,088 They were really on us to do a lot of pop culture shit. 526 00:30:39,756 --> 00:30:42,885 And I was-- This was my last shot in TV, and I knew it. 527 00:30:42,968 --> 00:30:45,762 I was 35. I'd been down the road a ton. 528 00:30:46,722 --> 00:30:49,433 And what I said to them was, "Let's make a deal. 529 00:30:49,975 --> 00:30:52,394 Let me do the thing that I believe in. 530 00:30:53,312 --> 00:30:58,066 And if it sucks, and it doesn't sell you enough beer, 531 00:30:58,150 --> 00:30:59,818 you can fire me." 532 00:30:59,902 --> 00:31:04,323 In other words, we developed a thing that we believed in. 533 00:31:04,406 --> 00:31:07,326 And the audience showed up. 534 00:31:07,409 --> 00:31:11,538 Rather than doing research on what the audience wanted 535 00:31:12,122 --> 00:31:13,874 and backing into it. 536 00:31:13,957 --> 00:31:17,336 And there are so many 537 00:31:17,419 --> 00:31:21,256 good, talented, passionate journalists 538 00:31:21,340 --> 00:31:27,554 that are getting the life sucked out of them by a system that is backwards. 539 00:31:27,638 --> 00:31:28,972 Is that correct? 540 00:31:29,056 --> 00:31:30,891 Let me throw out a different narrative on this. 541 00:31:30,974 --> 00:31:32,643 Holy crokinole. It's about time. 542 00:31:33,727 --> 00:31:37,439 I think what this is really about is a lack of courage of changing the model. 543 00:31:37,523 --> 00:31:39,274 The part about the minute-by-minutes, 544 00:31:39,358 --> 00:31:43,946 you're looking at data that is already incredibly flawed from the beginning. 545 00:31:44,029 --> 00:31:46,073 -And the more-- -What data? Where do they get their data? 546 00:31:46,156 --> 00:31:49,660 Well, Nielsen provides ratings for most broadcast products. 547 00:31:49,743 --> 00:31:51,203 -Nielsen? -Yeah. 548 00:31:51,286 --> 00:31:54,206 The group from the '50s with the book that you write in? 549 00:31:54,289 --> 00:31:58,126 Well, but-- And the main theory behind their methodology hasn't changed any. 550 00:31:58,210 --> 00:32:00,128 In the '70s and '80s, when you had the dials 551 00:32:00,212 --> 00:32:02,881 and there was five options, it worked pretty well. 552 00:32:02,965 --> 00:32:05,509 Now look at what's happening. You have hyperfragmentation. 553 00:32:05,592 --> 00:32:07,553 You have people consuming content all the time 554 00:32:07,636 --> 00:32:09,805 on all kinds of different devices and platforms, 555 00:32:09,888 --> 00:32:11,181 and it just hasn't kept up. 556 00:32:11,265 --> 00:32:14,226 So now you take that data, you start splicing it down to minute-by-minute. 557 00:32:14,309 --> 00:32:16,103 You take bad data, make it smaller and focused. 558 00:32:16,186 --> 00:32:17,271 You got nothing. 559 00:32:17,354 --> 00:32:20,566 How in their right mind has nobody stepped back and said, 560 00:32:20,649 --> 00:32:24,444 "You know, Nielsen ratings are often written on papyrus." 561 00:32:24,528 --> 00:32:27,322 And at some point you just start realizing, 562 00:32:27,406 --> 00:32:30,617 I wonder if what we're looking at has any degree of realism at all. 563 00:32:30,701 --> 00:32:33,620 I think it's about systems. Like, well, listen, I'm in the system. 564 00:32:33,704 --> 00:32:35,038 And this is how the system is. 565 00:32:35,122 --> 00:32:36,540 And if I would like to get paid-- 566 00:32:36,623 --> 00:32:38,917 continue to be paid the money that I'm making, 567 00:32:39,001 --> 00:32:41,670 which is seriously good money, 568 00:32:41,753 --> 00:32:43,213 do I really want to fight the system? 569 00:32:43,297 --> 00:32:46,466 I think for most of the journalists working there when I was there, 570 00:32:46,550 --> 00:32:49,261 they love journalism as I did, and I do, 571 00:32:49,344 --> 00:32:51,180 but I think, you know, it-- 572 00:32:52,639 --> 00:32:55,851 The mission was to do the best work that you could do and win. 573 00:32:55,934 --> 00:32:57,811 You know, win is in the ratings. 574 00:32:57,895 --> 00:33:01,023 Win is making sure that you're getting picked up by The New York Times. 575 00:33:01,106 --> 00:33:03,442 Win is not about educating the public. 576 00:33:03,525 --> 00:33:05,235 It's not so complicated. 577 00:33:05,319 --> 00:33:08,363 Real Housewives is a really good model. The reality show, right? 578 00:33:08,447 --> 00:33:11,575 This idea, the person who's willing to go there, go over-the-top, 579 00:33:11,658 --> 00:33:14,369 they become better known. They get paid more money. 580 00:33:14,453 --> 00:33:15,621 It's successful. 581 00:33:15,704 --> 00:33:17,915 Your guests who are willing to go over-the-top, 582 00:33:17,998 --> 00:33:21,126 the person who's willing to say the thing no one's willing to say, 583 00:33:21,210 --> 00:33:22,920 that person is good TV. 584 00:33:23,003 --> 00:33:25,631 If they're good TV then they're gonna get booked. 585 00:33:25,714 --> 00:33:27,132 Well, cable's moved to opinion. 586 00:33:27,216 --> 00:33:30,052 You know, what's the difference between opinion and what's the news? 587 00:33:30,135 --> 00:33:31,720 Local's never gotten into that game. 588 00:33:31,803 --> 00:33:34,348 And thank God. I think it's one of the things that's gonna save us. 589 00:33:34,431 --> 00:33:36,558 Local news has not really done 590 00:33:36,642 --> 00:33:39,019 what cable news has made an art out of, right, 591 00:33:39,102 --> 00:33:42,606 which is the chaos as good TV. 592 00:33:42,689 --> 00:33:44,358 Local news has to-- 593 00:33:44,441 --> 00:33:47,319 To serve the people watching, they have to cover the community. 594 00:33:47,402 --> 00:33:49,488 They can't just have two people screaming at each other 595 00:33:49,571 --> 00:33:51,990 for four minutes and say, "Gentlemen, thank you for joining us. 596 00:33:52,074 --> 00:33:53,200 We appreciate your time." 597 00:33:53,283 --> 00:33:55,410 Yeah. I mean, I just think you're watching 598 00:33:55,494 --> 00:33:57,621 a different local news broadcast than I am. 599 00:33:57,704 --> 00:34:01,291 Because from when I watch local news, 600 00:34:01,375 --> 00:34:03,794 it's basically just a quick run-up 601 00:34:03,877 --> 00:34:08,422 of who's raping what and who's murdering who. 602 00:34:08,507 --> 00:34:10,967 And then I get a little bit of something on the Giants and the weather. 603 00:34:11,051 --> 00:34:12,094 -But if you… -But-- 604 00:34:12,177 --> 00:34:14,638 But if you look-- But this is exactly the top two reasons 605 00:34:14,721 --> 00:34:17,056 people don't watch local news, for those who've gotten away from it. 606 00:34:17,139 --> 00:34:19,810 Number one, it makes me feel poorly about my community. 607 00:34:19,893 --> 00:34:21,478 And number two, it stresses me out. 608 00:34:21,562 --> 00:34:22,896 Those are things we can fix. 609 00:34:22,980 --> 00:34:24,982 Every day when we decide what goes in our newscasts, 610 00:34:25,065 --> 00:34:26,650 we have the ability to change that narrative. 611 00:34:26,733 --> 00:34:28,569 Again, it's gonna take a while to get there-- 612 00:34:28,652 --> 00:34:30,737 Fluff is powerful, and fluff is bad. 613 00:34:31,321 --> 00:34:33,239 -And-- -That sounded dirty. 614 00:34:34,283 --> 00:34:35,449 Well, if you're doing it right. 615 00:34:35,534 --> 00:34:38,829 -Holy crokinole, that sounded dirty. -Holy crokinole, that fluff is good. 616 00:34:38,911 --> 00:34:41,039 Fluff is powerful, fluff is bad. 617 00:34:41,123 --> 00:34:42,833 I need fluff. 618 00:34:44,251 --> 00:34:46,460 Okay, but let's be clear. Nobody's talking fluff. 619 00:34:46,545 --> 00:34:48,755 Now, I'm-- That was not an accusatory fluff. 620 00:34:48,839 --> 00:34:50,841 -Yeah. -This is to say-- 621 00:34:50,924 --> 00:34:54,928 This is to say what differentiates news from entertainment is 622 00:34:55,012 --> 00:34:57,723 that sometimes we have to tell you what you don't want to hear. Right? 623 00:34:57,806 --> 00:35:00,309 We are supposed to be the vegetables, right? 624 00:35:00,392 --> 00:35:04,688 We are supposed to be the nutrient-giving portion of the plate, not dessert. 625 00:35:04,771 --> 00:35:08,233 What cable news has tried to do and what local news sometimes does 626 00:35:08,317 --> 00:35:11,320 is get the green beans in the shortbread. 627 00:35:11,403 --> 00:35:15,324 And you've got now-- You've turned the news into entertainment, 628 00:35:15,407 --> 00:35:16,950 and you're treating entertainment like news. 629 00:35:17,034 --> 00:35:18,410 Both of those are bad things. 630 00:35:18,493 --> 00:35:21,413 News should be news. Entertainment should be entertainment. 631 00:35:21,496 --> 00:35:22,623 Boom! 632 00:35:26,043 --> 00:35:27,503 Soledad, the last word. 633 00:35:27,586 --> 00:35:30,005 Number one, don't put liars on television. 634 00:35:30,088 --> 00:35:31,215 It's such a basic rule-- 635 00:35:33,300 --> 00:35:34,718 I mean… 636 00:35:37,095 --> 00:35:42,267 It's so weird to me that literally liars are platformed all the time, 637 00:35:42,351 --> 00:35:44,144 every single day on cable 638 00:35:44,228 --> 00:35:47,272 and then on some of the big Sunday morning shows on networks as well. 639 00:35:47,356 --> 00:35:51,151 It's just a mistake because it's-- That's a cannibalization, right? 640 00:35:51,235 --> 00:35:53,445 It eats away at your credibility. 641 00:35:53,529 --> 00:35:57,241 And also, I think, if you feel like, okay, but I do have to put this person on 642 00:35:57,324 --> 00:36:00,285 because they are in the middle of an important story, 643 00:36:00,369 --> 00:36:03,455 there's no little rule that says everybody gets handed a hot mic 644 00:36:03,539 --> 00:36:05,999 and they get to be on live television. 645 00:36:06,083 --> 00:36:08,877 You can interview people to really understand their story 646 00:36:08,961 --> 00:36:10,462 or even use pieces of it. 647 00:36:10,546 --> 00:36:13,590 But you don't have to air somebody's entire story where they're lying. 648 00:36:13,674 --> 00:36:15,050 Just tape them first. 649 00:36:15,133 --> 00:36:19,847 But I don't know that there's a will to make a big change when, frankly, 650 00:36:19,930 --> 00:36:23,058 the other way pays pretty well 651 00:36:23,141 --> 00:36:26,645 and, you know, gets you in The New York Times 652 00:36:26,728 --> 00:36:29,356 and makes you famous. 653 00:36:29,439 --> 00:36:30,607 I don't know. 654 00:36:30,691 --> 00:36:34,444 Soledad, square this for me with the high-minded rhetoric, 655 00:36:34,528 --> 00:36:37,573 'cause I know exactly what the blowback of this episode is gonna be. 656 00:36:38,115 --> 00:36:40,284 "Fuck Jon"-- "Holy crokinole Jon Stewart." 657 00:36:43,287 --> 00:36:45,956 "You don't understand. You're lumping us in. 658 00:36:46,039 --> 00:36:47,332 We do amazing work. 659 00:36:47,416 --> 00:36:49,626 Democracy dies in darkness." 660 00:36:49,710 --> 00:36:55,674 That doesn't square in any way to how this thing is actually put together. 661 00:36:55,757 --> 00:37:01,638 Because one speaks of integrity and courage and editorial authority. 662 00:37:01,722 --> 00:37:07,227 And the other is a crass manifestation of selling beer. 663 00:37:07,311 --> 00:37:09,605 -So square that circle for me. -One-- 664 00:37:11,481 --> 00:37:14,818 One is the PR department saying, 665 00:37:14,902 --> 00:37:16,945 "What should our strategy look like 666 00:37:17,029 --> 00:37:20,824 in order to try to build or, in some cases, rebuild trust 667 00:37:20,908 --> 00:37:23,410 with a viewing public that's lost trust in media?" 668 00:37:23,493 --> 00:37:26,288 And the other is, "Listen, we gotta go for these ratings." 669 00:37:27,164 --> 00:37:29,124 Well, I can't tell you how much I appreciate 670 00:37:29,208 --> 00:37:30,792 the conversation from all of you. 671 00:37:30,876 --> 00:37:32,794 I feel not much better at all. 672 00:37:36,590 --> 00:37:40,427 I want to thank everybody for joining us, 673 00:37:40,511 --> 00:37:44,056 Chris Stirewalt, Sean McLaughlin and, of course, Soledad O'Brien. 674 00:37:44,139 --> 00:37:47,059 We'll take a little break and be right back. 675 00:37:55,359 --> 00:37:59,029 We're not gonna have an interview with somebody who runs a news division 676 00:37:59,112 --> 00:38:01,156 or used to run a news division. 677 00:38:01,240 --> 00:38:03,408 So far, it's been a resounding no. 678 00:38:03,492 --> 00:38:08,413 You're an industry that relies on transparency and access. 679 00:38:09,081 --> 00:38:12,334 And democracy dies in darkness. 680 00:38:12,417 --> 00:38:15,629 And you're saying that locked in a fucking closet. 681 00:38:15,712 --> 00:38:17,589 -Right. -With the lights out. 682 00:38:18,090 --> 00:38:19,633 And you won't say it on camera. 683 00:38:19,716 --> 00:38:23,345 These are people that stand outside of people's homes 684 00:38:23,428 --> 00:38:25,889 after their child has been murdered 685 00:38:25,973 --> 00:38:29,101 and say, "Talk to me. Come out and tell us"… 686 00:38:29,184 --> 00:38:30,644 -You owe us! -…"how you feel." 687 00:38:30,727 --> 00:38:32,145 And they act like they owe them. 688 00:38:32,229 --> 00:38:35,524 And then you ask them to just come on and defend their fucking business model. 689 00:38:35,607 --> 00:38:39,695 Have you tried going outside their house and being like, "Fucking talk to us"? 690 00:38:44,950 --> 00:38:47,744 Let me explain to you why we're here. 691 00:38:48,662 --> 00:38:50,414 First of all, no one else would talk to us. 692 00:38:50,497 --> 00:38:51,748 So, thank you. 693 00:38:51,832 --> 00:38:54,835 So we spoke with a lot of heads of news divisions. 694 00:38:54,918 --> 00:39:00,632 And they are reluctant to speak on the record. 695 00:39:00,716 --> 00:39:06,722 Do you have an idea of why they might be so reluctant to speak publicly? 696 00:39:06,805 --> 00:39:10,684 Well, I think that news organizations, 697 00:39:10,767 --> 00:39:16,023 there's a sense that they are being scrutinized and being criticized 698 00:39:16,106 --> 00:39:18,984 in a way that they've never experienced before. 699 00:39:19,067 --> 00:39:22,446 And I think there's a bit of a bunker mentality that has set in. 700 00:39:23,530 --> 00:39:24,907 I think it's very, very hard 701 00:39:24,990 --> 00:39:29,870 when you're constantly, constantly being criticized by-- 702 00:39:29,953 --> 00:39:32,497 Who would criticize the news? 703 00:39:32,581 --> 00:39:36,543 Who would do such a-- such a thing? 704 00:39:36,627 --> 00:39:37,753 That's terrible. 705 00:39:38,337 --> 00:39:40,547 All right. It's my fault. 706 00:39:41,048 --> 00:39:42,216 But you know what's interesting? 707 00:39:42,299 --> 00:39:45,886 The people that we talked to would all say, 708 00:39:46,678 --> 00:39:49,890 "Well, you know, you've got to deliver the ratings." 709 00:39:49,973 --> 00:39:53,018 They call them the minute-to-minutes, right? 710 00:39:53,101 --> 00:39:56,813 How much of it is the ratings pressure? 711 00:39:56,897 --> 00:39:59,566 And how much of it is a self-consciousness 712 00:39:59,650 --> 00:40:02,945 over accusations of liberal bias 713 00:40:03,028 --> 00:40:06,865 or accusations of a political agenda? 714 00:40:06,949 --> 00:40:09,409 What concerns would they express to you in that situation? 715 00:40:09,493 --> 00:40:12,371 ABC News reported to me in one form or another 716 00:40:12,454 --> 00:40:15,958 for probably 35 years, 30-some-odd years. 717 00:40:16,041 --> 00:40:20,170 And my advice to them was to not hear the noise as much, 718 00:40:20,254 --> 00:40:26,009 to continue doing the job that we've entrusted them to do. 719 00:40:26,093 --> 00:40:27,094 Right. 720 00:40:27,177 --> 00:40:31,640 Which is to tell the truth, to state the facts. 721 00:40:31,723 --> 00:40:36,937 To present the news in an accurate and a fair and in a timely basis. 722 00:40:37,020 --> 00:40:43,527 But we never sought to drive ratings or even bottom-line success 723 00:40:43,610 --> 00:40:46,864 at the sacrifice of what we consider to be quality. 724 00:40:46,947 --> 00:40:49,199 It just wasn't part of our discussion. 725 00:40:49,283 --> 00:40:50,784 What they will tell you, 726 00:40:50,868 --> 00:40:54,538 and maybe they didn't say it, you know, in those meetings, 727 00:40:54,621 --> 00:40:59,960 is the producer of the piece will be cognizant of the minute-to-minute ratings. 728 00:41:00,043 --> 00:41:04,298 The executive producer of the show will be cognizant of those. 729 00:41:04,965 --> 00:41:08,135 And the decisions that they make 730 00:41:08,927 --> 00:41:15,225 were almost entirely built on what they thought might have rated. 731 00:41:15,309 --> 00:41:17,686 -It's been a little daunting. -If you're asking whether 732 00:41:17,769 --> 00:41:21,648 there have been incidents when news organizations failed to carry things 733 00:41:21,732 --> 00:41:24,610 because they don't think they'll be of interest to their audience, 734 00:41:24,693 --> 00:41:25,736 I'm sure that's the case. 735 00:41:25,819 --> 00:41:27,279 -I'm not saying instances. -But here's-- 736 00:41:27,362 --> 00:41:29,531 -That's been shaping-- -You think it's a regular thing. 737 00:41:29,615 --> 00:41:31,366 And not told in the right way. 738 00:41:31,450 --> 00:41:36,455 See, that's-- I would argue that there are stories that are not told 739 00:41:36,538 --> 00:41:39,166 because there's a belief that people aren't interested in them. 740 00:41:39,249 --> 00:41:41,210 I don't think there are stories that are told 741 00:41:41,293 --> 00:41:42,920 that are told inaccurately 742 00:41:43,003 --> 00:41:44,880 just to make them more interesting to people. 743 00:41:44,963 --> 00:41:47,007 -It's not inacc-- -I'm defending an organization 744 00:41:47,090 --> 00:41:48,842 -as opposed to news in general. -Right. 745 00:41:48,926 --> 00:41:51,553 -I just don't have enough-- -But trust in news 746 00:41:51,637 --> 00:41:56,558 during the Cronkite era was-- It was one of the most valued institutions. 747 00:41:56,642 --> 00:42:02,105 Today, it's somewhere between Congress and herpes. 748 00:42:02,189 --> 00:42:05,776 You know, in terms of its Q rating. What happened? 749 00:42:05,859 --> 00:42:10,447 It starts with technology enabling an explosion of programming, 750 00:42:11,281 --> 00:42:13,534 which includes news and information. 751 00:42:13,617 --> 00:42:17,663 And with that, I believe, has come a dilution in quality. 752 00:42:17,746 --> 00:42:22,793 The more volume, typically, as it grows and grows and grows and explodes, 753 00:42:22,876 --> 00:42:25,462 results in, in my opinion, a loss of quality. 754 00:42:25,546 --> 00:42:29,174 And then you look at what is presented as news on social media, 755 00:42:29,258 --> 00:42:30,801 and you can immediately conclude 756 00:42:30,884 --> 00:42:35,430 that a lot of what is presented that people think is news is not news 757 00:42:35,514 --> 00:42:37,891 as certainly we knew it when we were growing up 758 00:42:37,975 --> 00:42:40,310 and what we were taught news should be. 759 00:42:40,394 --> 00:42:41,228 Right. 760 00:42:41,311 --> 00:42:44,773 So I think what people believe is news is really opinion, 761 00:42:44,857 --> 00:42:46,775 and opinion is very different than that. 762 00:42:46,859 --> 00:42:48,902 Opinion is a bias. 763 00:42:48,986 --> 00:42:50,487 But you're in a business 764 00:42:50,571 --> 00:42:53,866 where the first word you say, the first thing you say 765 00:42:53,949 --> 00:42:57,953 at the top of every broadcast is, "Our top story tonight." 766 00:42:58,954 --> 00:43:01,123 That's opinion. 767 00:43:01,915 --> 00:43:03,125 It's subjective. 768 00:43:03,208 --> 00:43:05,794 There's this strange disconnect 769 00:43:05,878 --> 00:43:11,008 between the high-mindedness of what they say they do-- 770 00:43:11,091 --> 00:43:13,760 "democracy dies in darkness"-- 771 00:43:14,553 --> 00:43:17,931 versus the reality of how they produce it. 772 00:43:18,015 --> 00:43:23,687 "Breaking news tonight. Everyone will die. Watch us." 773 00:43:23,770 --> 00:43:27,900 Because their business model is based on engagement. 774 00:43:27,983 --> 00:43:32,029 It is an editorial decision to decide what story to tell first. 775 00:43:32,112 --> 00:43:36,366 But you're suggesting that that in itself is 776 00:43:36,450 --> 00:43:38,702 an example of a lessening of quality or a bias-- 777 00:43:38,785 --> 00:43:44,333 It's bias. If you don't admit-- I'll give you an example. 778 00:43:44,416 --> 00:43:47,628 If you lead every night with the Mueller report, 779 00:43:47,711 --> 00:43:49,379 Mueller, the Mueller investigation… 780 00:43:50,339 --> 00:43:54,426 They created a television show, they created the O.J. trial, 781 00:43:55,302 --> 00:43:56,595 out of the Mueller report. 782 00:43:57,304 --> 00:43:59,723 That business model, it feels like, 783 00:43:59,806 --> 00:44:04,144 overwhelms whatever journalistic credibility exists. 784 00:44:04,937 --> 00:44:07,773 And isn't that what needs to be fixed? 785 00:44:07,856 --> 00:44:12,653 I do believe that many news organizations, 786 00:44:12,736 --> 00:44:18,200 feeling embattled by the-- Trump and the Trump era, 787 00:44:19,201 --> 00:44:20,869 reacted to it, 788 00:44:22,913 --> 00:44:27,876 perhaps, by building up his potential demise. 789 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:33,882 In other words, I think there was almost a glee felt. 790 00:44:33,966 --> 00:44:37,845 If that were a singular example, right? 791 00:44:38,428 --> 00:44:41,265 When we withdrew forces from Afghanistan, 792 00:44:41,348 --> 00:44:46,311 there was, appropriately enough, a pretty big focus on it. 793 00:44:46,395 --> 00:44:48,063 -Big story. -Very big story. 794 00:44:48,146 --> 00:44:51,859 -Should have been a lot of focus on it. -I think you're absolutely right. 795 00:44:51,942 --> 00:44:55,028 But the focus on it was one of high dudgeon 796 00:44:55,112 --> 00:45:00,117 over how could this happen, and why did it happen and what's going on. 797 00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:04,121 But we'd been there since two thousand and-- 798 00:45:04,204 --> 00:45:07,416 Twenty-some-odd, twenty-- twenty-year war, right? 799 00:45:07,499 --> 00:45:13,672 Isn't some of the context of what happened based on no one covering it 800 00:45:13,755 --> 00:45:17,217 in a significant way over the past ten years? 801 00:45:17,301 --> 00:45:19,887 Well, you're suggesting if it had been covered on a regular basis, 802 00:45:19,970 --> 00:45:21,555 then we wouldn't have been surprised 803 00:45:21,638 --> 00:45:24,850 by the speed at which the Taliban took over the country 804 00:45:24,933 --> 00:45:26,518 as we drew down our forces? 805 00:45:26,602 --> 00:45:29,271 -I'm saying if it had been covered more… -Right. 806 00:45:29,354 --> 00:45:31,481 …maybe we wouldn't even have been there that long. 807 00:45:31,565 --> 00:45:36,862 What I'm saying is that we are not well informed, 808 00:45:36,945 --> 00:45:42,159 that the news media goes all-or-nothing on everything, 809 00:45:42,242 --> 00:45:44,661 that they're like eight-year-olds playing soccer. 810 00:45:44,745 --> 00:45:45,996 And if you've ever seen them-- 811 00:45:46,079 --> 00:45:48,248 Everybody grab-- Everybody running to the ball. 812 00:45:48,332 --> 00:45:49,625 Everybody run to the ball. 813 00:45:49,708 --> 00:45:52,211 And that there's no perspective because-- 814 00:45:52,294 --> 00:45:53,545 So, I could argue 815 00:45:53,629 --> 00:45:56,423 there are some stories that have not been covered enough 816 00:45:57,341 --> 00:46:00,385 maybe because there's a belief that the audience isn't interested in them. 817 00:46:00,469 --> 00:46:03,722 Maybe because even news organizations get tired 818 00:46:03,805 --> 00:46:05,307 of presenting them on a regular basis. 819 00:46:05,390 --> 00:46:07,309 Although, I don't know incidents of that. 820 00:46:07,392 --> 00:46:11,480 You don't think that the outrage nature of the coverage 821 00:46:11,563 --> 00:46:15,651 -was a bit overhyped in that-- -I mean, the only thing I could argue 822 00:46:15,734 --> 00:46:18,070 is maybe if it had been covered more, 823 00:46:18,153 --> 00:46:22,407 America would have been more outraged earlier about the fact that we were there. 824 00:46:22,491 --> 00:46:23,492 That's my point. 825 00:46:23,575 --> 00:46:25,452 Then maybe the pullout would have happened earlier. 826 00:46:25,536 --> 00:46:27,663 -Or more responsibly. -I dunno. I lived through the Vietnam era. 827 00:46:27,746 --> 00:46:30,749 Let's just say we'll conclude war is hell, right? 828 00:46:30,832 --> 00:46:31,792 -Therefore… -Yes. 829 00:46:31,875 --> 00:46:37,422 …if news organizations cover the hell, maybe we won't have wars. 830 00:46:37,506 --> 00:46:40,884 When news narrows their focus of coverage, 831 00:46:41,468 --> 00:46:45,097 people get a skewed picture of what our reality is. 832 00:46:45,180 --> 00:46:51,770 I think you're being a little too critical, in my opinion, of news overall. 833 00:46:52,563 --> 00:46:56,817 That's not to say that news organizations don't hype big stories, 834 00:46:56,900 --> 00:46:58,569 because many of them do, 835 00:46:58,652 --> 00:47:01,238 and sometimes overhype, sometimes to a fault. 836 00:47:02,155 --> 00:47:03,407 -But-- -When do they not-- 837 00:47:03,490 --> 00:47:05,659 I'd be more curious as to when you thought they didn't. 838 00:47:05,742 --> 00:47:09,162 We'd have to go back to the biggest story of our time. 839 00:47:09,246 --> 00:47:12,457 COVID cri-- COVID. Was that overhyped? 840 00:47:12,541 --> 00:47:14,459 -900,000 people in the United States… -I think that-- 841 00:47:14,543 --> 00:47:16,628 …have died from it. Doesn't feel overhyped to me. 842 00:47:16,712 --> 00:47:20,799 No. I'll give you an example with COVID that I think is apropos. 843 00:47:20,883 --> 00:47:21,884 Mask wearing. 844 00:47:21,967 --> 00:47:26,805 The political conflict over whether or not to wear masks, 845 00:47:26,889 --> 00:47:31,476 and the overwhelming majority of conversation is speculation 846 00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:36,565 about what that means to freedom and this person's anger about it. 847 00:47:36,648 --> 00:47:39,693 And so little of it is, what does it do? 848 00:47:39,776 --> 00:47:41,153 Why do surgeons wear them? 849 00:47:41,737 --> 00:47:43,780 -I think that part of the story was told. -The overwhelming-- 850 00:47:43,864 --> 00:47:47,284 The part of the story that was told already is that people should wear masks 851 00:47:47,367 --> 00:47:50,120 because, from a scientific perspective, 852 00:47:50,204 --> 00:47:52,748 -there's a real reason to do so. -Right. 853 00:47:52,831 --> 00:47:56,752 And, I don't know, does the audience need to be reminded again 854 00:47:56,835 --> 00:47:59,004 and again and again of that? 855 00:47:59,087 --> 00:48:02,341 Why are they reminded again and again that it's causing a fight? 856 00:48:02,424 --> 00:48:07,596 By hyping conflict, aren't they also escalating that conflict? 857 00:48:07,679 --> 00:48:10,224 Were they hyping conflict, or were they covering conflict? 858 00:48:10,307 --> 00:48:12,768 -I think-- -Covering it too much is hyping it? 859 00:48:12,851 --> 00:48:16,605 I think their coverage of conflict hypes it, 860 00:48:16,688 --> 00:48:19,483 and I actually think they drive a lot of it. 861 00:48:19,566 --> 00:48:23,987 So I guess if there's more and more incidents of people going crazy 862 00:48:24,071 --> 00:48:25,864 about mask wearing, 863 00:48:25,948 --> 00:48:28,033 I guess I could argue it should be covered. 864 00:48:28,116 --> 00:48:29,535 Now, if you're asking me whether I think 865 00:48:29,618 --> 00:48:33,205 there's probably been too much made of that… probably. 866 00:48:33,288 --> 00:48:34,414 I would-- 867 00:48:34,498 --> 00:48:38,710 Don't you think coverage can influence behavior? 868 00:48:39,419 --> 00:48:41,296 Can news influence behavior? 869 00:48:41,380 --> 00:48:43,841 Sure, it can. Absolutely. 870 00:48:43,924 --> 00:48:48,971 Which is why I think it's so important for news to act responsibly. 871 00:48:49,638 --> 00:48:51,890 -Look. It has just as much a power-- -Boom. 872 00:48:51,974 --> 00:48:55,227 Just as it has a power to do good, it has a power to do bad. 873 00:48:55,310 --> 00:48:58,480 What can be done to manage it more responsibly? 874 00:48:59,314 --> 00:49:02,985 It's managed responsibly by some organizations, and by others it's not. 875 00:49:03,068 --> 00:49:06,071 Look, people are not as held accountable for inaccuracies. 876 00:49:06,154 --> 00:49:07,322 So there's that issue. 877 00:49:07,406 --> 00:49:12,035 And then there's the whole issue of profiting from-- I'll call it inaccuracy. 878 00:49:12,119 --> 00:49:13,203 -In other words… -Right. 879 00:49:13,287 --> 00:49:18,083 …from opinion and from, well, presenting things in an inaccurate fashion. 880 00:49:18,166 --> 00:49:20,210 I think if you're looking at overall, 881 00:49:20,294 --> 00:49:22,921 the pot of-- that isn't considered news today, 882 00:49:23,005 --> 00:49:25,841 it's-- We're in a-- It's a problem. 883 00:49:25,924 --> 00:49:27,593 So to answer your question, 884 00:49:27,676 --> 00:49:30,762 I don't know what the answer is in terms of fixing it. 885 00:49:30,846 --> 00:49:33,891 Let's use Fox News as an example, because I think it's a good example. 886 00:49:33,974 --> 00:49:36,727 Roger Ailes had an idea. I don't know if you knew Roger at all. 887 00:49:36,810 --> 00:49:40,731 Roger came to me and wanted to run ABC News at one point. 888 00:49:40,814 --> 00:49:44,234 Before, believe it or not, in the early '90s. 889 00:49:45,235 --> 00:49:47,696 Boy, that would have been a Trojan horse. 890 00:49:47,779 --> 00:49:51,074 Yeah, we weren't looking for someone at that point. 891 00:49:51,158 --> 00:49:53,744 So I wasn't in need, but I met with him. 892 00:49:53,827 --> 00:50:00,709 It's really clear that he is advocating or was advocating a political position 893 00:50:01,335 --> 00:50:05,088 and used his storytelling ability and his narrative ability 894 00:50:05,172 --> 00:50:07,466 to create this powerhouse 895 00:50:08,008 --> 00:50:11,261 that is really the media arm of a political movement. 896 00:50:11,345 --> 00:50:15,140 Look, if Roger Ailes had concluded-- well, which he did, 897 00:50:15,224 --> 00:50:19,186 that news had a bias-- that the then-existing news organizations, 898 00:50:19,269 --> 00:50:24,024 specifically cable news, had a bias and was ignoring the right 899 00:50:24,107 --> 00:50:26,193 and that he was gonna go out and create an organization 900 00:50:26,276 --> 00:50:28,153 that was not going to be biased… 901 00:50:28,904 --> 00:50:30,447 -But that's the-- -But he didn't do that. 902 00:50:30,531 --> 00:50:32,741 -He was cynical. I don't think he was-- -He didn't do that. 903 00:50:32,824 --> 00:50:35,202 He thought there was a business in being biased. 904 00:50:35,285 --> 00:50:37,287 -Correct. -But then what we've also seen is 905 00:50:37,371 --> 00:50:41,875 that other news organizations then pivoted in another direction 906 00:50:41,959 --> 00:50:44,127 as a countermeasure to what he was doing. 907 00:50:44,211 --> 00:50:45,254 -So… -Correct. 908 00:50:45,337 --> 00:50:47,965 That, to me, was a huge mistake, 909 00:50:48,048 --> 00:50:51,677 'cause I think that was at the expense of credibility, 910 00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:53,679 at the expense of being accurate, 911 00:50:53,762 --> 00:50:57,266 at the-- I would argue even at the expense of being responsible. 912 00:50:57,349 --> 00:51:00,936 Can you do a profitable news organization 913 00:51:02,145 --> 00:51:04,606 that also is-- 914 00:51:04,690 --> 00:51:10,320 has the strength to cut through the noise 915 00:51:10,404 --> 00:51:12,197 in this media environment? 916 00:51:12,281 --> 00:51:15,826 It's almost impossible, really, today. I don't know how you would do it. 917 00:51:15,909 --> 00:51:17,411 You'd have to-- 918 00:51:17,494 --> 00:51:20,581 I don't think you can create a subscription news service 919 00:51:21,790 --> 00:51:27,379 that would generate the kind of revenue you'd need to cover news right. 920 00:51:27,462 --> 00:51:30,966 And advertising is typically reliant on consumption, 921 00:51:31,049 --> 00:51:32,718 so you'd have to really be betting 922 00:51:32,801 --> 00:51:35,470 that you could drive huge amounts of consumption. 923 00:51:35,554 --> 00:51:37,890 What would you do? How would you fix it? Or what-- 924 00:51:37,973 --> 00:51:39,266 I've thought about it a lot. 925 00:51:39,349 --> 00:51:41,810 If you were gonna create it, how would you do it? 926 00:51:41,894 --> 00:51:44,563 You have to start completely from scratch. 927 00:51:44,646 --> 00:51:48,233 But not because you're trying to erase mistakes of the past, 928 00:51:48,317 --> 00:51:53,322 but you're trying to erase perceptions that have been created over time. 929 00:51:53,405 --> 00:51:54,948 And you'd have to populate it 930 00:51:55,032 --> 00:51:59,578 with people with incredible credibility and responsibility and accountability. 931 00:52:00,329 --> 00:52:02,414 It sounds very idealistic, doesn't it? 932 00:52:02,497 --> 00:52:03,957 It sounds incredibly idealistic. 933 00:52:04,041 --> 00:52:06,960 -But maybe we need it. I don't know. -But shouldn't it? 934 00:52:07,044 --> 00:52:11,298 I still think of that idea of a news organization 935 00:52:11,381 --> 00:52:16,136 that is more cognizant of what that business model is. 936 00:52:16,220 --> 00:52:19,014 And that maybe there's money to be made 937 00:52:19,097 --> 00:52:23,101 that's not as relentlessly hyperbolic. 938 00:52:23,185 --> 00:52:26,605 But I don't know-- I just don't know how practical that is. 939 00:52:26,688 --> 00:52:29,650 In terms of you don't know that that's a winner as far as, like… 940 00:52:30,901 --> 00:52:32,819 that it could be financially viable. 941 00:52:32,903 --> 00:52:36,114 Well, financially viable is-- Well, even-- Yes. 942 00:52:36,198 --> 00:52:37,824 But I'm much more interested in 943 00:52:37,908 --> 00:52:40,410 whether it would truly make a difference in the world. 944 00:52:40,994 --> 00:52:43,580 I feel like it has to 945 00:52:43,664 --> 00:52:47,668 because I've seen the impact that one news organization has had 946 00:52:47,751 --> 00:52:49,962 on the deterioration of it. 947 00:52:50,546 --> 00:52:55,342 Somebody's got to generate fodder that's better quality. 948 00:52:55,425 --> 00:52:56,844 And it feels like-- 949 00:52:56,927 --> 00:53:01,014 So I guess what I'm asking you is, will you run that? 950 00:53:03,016 --> 00:53:05,352 You're not the first person who's asked me to consider-- 951 00:53:05,435 --> 00:53:06,478 Well, here we are then. 952 00:53:06,562 --> 00:53:07,855 So-- So-- 953 00:53:07,938 --> 00:53:09,314 So that's what this is about. 954 00:53:09,398 --> 00:53:11,608 You seem to have an idea for it. You have an affinity for it. 955 00:53:11,692 --> 00:53:13,694 You've run these larger organizations before. 956 00:53:13,777 --> 00:53:16,655 People have presented me with that concept. 957 00:53:16,738 --> 00:53:17,865 -They have. -And? 958 00:53:17,948 --> 00:53:22,369 Well, I haven't said yes to it because I'm not sure how practical it is 959 00:53:22,452 --> 00:53:24,872 or how effective it would be. I don't know. 960 00:53:24,955 --> 00:53:26,832 Thank you very much for sitting down with us. 961 00:53:26,915 --> 00:53:28,667 -We very much appreciate it. -My pleasure. 962 00:54:22,721 --> 00:54:24,223 Thank you, everybody. 963 00:54:24,306 --> 00:54:27,226 Thank you very much for watching tonight's show. 964 00:54:30,229 --> 00:54:32,940 Please send all of your hate mail directly to Apple. 965 00:54:33,023 --> 00:54:35,317 For more on tonight's topic, 966 00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:39,029 please check out these resources to continue the conversation. 967 00:54:39,112 --> 00:54:41,573 Also, as you may know, we have a podcast. 968 00:54:41,657 --> 00:54:45,953 It's like the Jackass movies, but we hurt ourselves with words. 969 00:54:50,123 --> 00:54:53,293 And if that wasn't enough, we got ourselves a little newsletter there 970 00:54:53,377 --> 00:54:55,337 that is gonna look very nice in your spam box. 971 00:54:55,420 --> 00:54:58,090 So, thank you and good night to all. 972 00:55:06,765 --> 00:55:09,142 So, one thing you learn in TV news 973 00:55:09,226 --> 00:55:11,770 when you're writing headlines and copy and things like that are 974 00:55:11,854 --> 00:55:16,859 you want to use phrases as opposed to, like, sentences. 975 00:55:17,609 --> 00:55:20,904 "A tree crashed" is not an interesting sentence. 976 00:55:20,988 --> 00:55:23,490 You want to say, "Trees crashing." 977 00:55:23,574 --> 00:55:25,284 -As though it's happening right now. -Correct. 978 00:55:25,367 --> 00:55:27,619 And you also want to start every sentence with "tonight." 979 00:55:27,703 --> 00:55:30,455 It'll all start with, "Tonight, trees crashing." 980 00:55:31,707 --> 00:55:33,375 How do we reflect urgency tonight? 981 00:55:33,458 --> 00:55:37,963 Why "exclusive"? When they say, "Tonight, exclusively, we talk to…" 982 00:55:38,046 --> 00:55:41,175 And it's somebody you're looking at on every network, and you think, 983 00:55:41,258 --> 00:55:43,886 is there any-- What do they think of as exclusive? 984 00:55:43,969 --> 00:55:48,932 Oh, yeah. They think that if you hear how special something is, 985 00:55:49,016 --> 00:55:50,142 you will watch it more. 986 00:55:50,225 --> 00:55:53,687 "This is just for you, girl. Okay, girlfriend." 987 00:55:53,770 --> 00:55:55,480 Oh, my God. The news is a fuckboy. 988 00:55:55,564 --> 00:55:59,443 "I don't do this for everybody." 989 00:55:59,526 --> 00:56:01,069 "But since you asked…"