1 00:00:01,084 --> 00:00:02,461 -Check, check. -Good? 2 00:00:02,544 --> 00:00:04,880 -Microphone check, one, two. -We're good. Okay. 3 00:00:05,714 --> 00:00:08,884 I saw a video of a Krav Maga woman. 4 00:00:08,967 --> 00:00:10,969 Attackers came at her, she was like… 5 00:00:11,053 --> 00:00:12,471 and they were like, "Krav Maga." 6 00:00:12,554 --> 00:00:14,598 I was like, "I gotta fucking take that class." 7 00:00:14,681 --> 00:00:16,475 So I signed up for a Krav Maga class. 8 00:00:16,558 --> 00:00:21,355 And what I learned is that I've got about seven minutes before I die. 9 00:00:21,939 --> 00:00:23,982 Which is actually a long time. 10 00:00:24,066 --> 00:00:26,985 It's like-- At minute seven, I was like… 11 00:00:27,653 --> 00:00:28,946 I guess they can just-- 12 00:00:29,029 --> 00:00:30,239 Just do what you wanna do. 13 00:00:30,948 --> 00:00:32,783 You have Atticus. 14 00:00:32,866 --> 00:00:35,118 This dog isn't doing anything. 15 00:00:36,286 --> 00:00:39,248 Atticus and I have been taking a Krav Maga class. 16 00:00:41,166 --> 00:00:42,334 Little paws. 17 00:01:20,622 --> 00:01:21,623 My goodness. 18 00:01:22,374 --> 00:01:24,293 Oh, my goodness! 19 00:01:26,587 --> 00:01:27,588 Welcome. 20 00:01:28,297 --> 00:01:29,882 Let's dive into the program. 21 00:01:29,965 --> 00:01:31,175 Tonight… 22 00:01:32,551 --> 00:01:35,262 we're gonna be talking about something we all know, 23 00:01:35,345 --> 00:01:37,097 but we cannot seem to admit. 24 00:01:37,848 --> 00:01:41,894 America has lost the war on guns. 25 00:01:41,977 --> 00:01:43,020 It's over, people. 26 00:01:43,854 --> 00:01:45,606 What, you don't know that? 27 00:01:46,773 --> 00:01:47,983 We've lost. 28 00:01:48,066 --> 00:01:50,777 How do I know we've lost? Take a look. 29 00:01:50,861 --> 00:01:54,615 Knoxville police have an officer-involved shooting on their hands. 30 00:01:54,698 --> 00:01:57,034 This is a look at the scene earlier today. 31 00:01:57,117 --> 00:01:59,578 Oh, this is live, so they are still this-- 32 00:01:59,661 --> 00:02:01,246 Gotcha. Okay. 33 00:02:02,247 --> 00:02:04,958 It's the-- I forgot about the other shooting. 34 00:02:07,586 --> 00:02:10,506 "I was talking about that shooting, but it's the other shooting." 35 00:02:11,548 --> 00:02:13,217 That is the amount of carnage 36 00:02:13,300 --> 00:02:16,428 the newscasters are forced to narrate on a daily basis. 37 00:02:16,512 --> 00:02:21,517 An amount where it's possible to forget an entire other mass shooting. 38 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:25,896 "We are live with the shooting, not-- Oh, right, the other fucking shooting." 39 00:02:27,064 --> 00:02:28,899 It's like when you can't find your glasses 40 00:02:28,982 --> 00:02:31,068 and they've been on your head the whole time. 41 00:02:31,151 --> 00:02:33,654 You think to yourself like, "Fuck!" 42 00:02:35,155 --> 00:02:37,241 Look, this is an easy mistake to make 43 00:02:37,324 --> 00:02:39,409 when we average about 12 mass shootings a week. 44 00:02:39,493 --> 00:02:42,913 And you know what might help that? 45 00:02:42,996 --> 00:02:44,540 We need to arm our teachers. 46 00:02:45,123 --> 00:02:46,750 Yes. 47 00:02:46,834 --> 00:02:48,126 The solution to school shootings 48 00:02:48,210 --> 00:02:50,921 is apparently strapping up Mr. Langdon from chemistry. 49 00:02:53,507 --> 00:02:56,051 Well, that only takes care of school shootings. 50 00:02:56,134 --> 00:02:58,220 What if a shooting happens in a church? 51 00:02:58,303 --> 00:02:59,555 People in church should have guns. 52 00:03:03,100 --> 00:03:04,101 Amen? 53 00:03:05,602 --> 00:03:09,106 Are there any other professionals whose jobs have nothing to do with guns 54 00:03:09,189 --> 00:03:10,899 or crime that need guns? 55 00:03:10,983 --> 00:03:13,443 I'd say 100% of our pilots ought to be armed. 56 00:03:15,362 --> 00:03:17,906 A hundred percent of our pilots. 57 00:03:17,990 --> 00:03:18,991 Let me tell you something. 58 00:03:19,700 --> 00:03:24,246 That fucking goose wouldn't have dared taken down Captain Sully's plane… 59 00:03:26,540 --> 00:03:27,833 if it knew he was packing. 60 00:03:27,916 --> 00:03:30,419 "I'm tired of these motherfucking unarmed pilots 61 00:03:30,502 --> 00:03:32,045 on these motherfucking planes." 62 00:03:35,549 --> 00:03:37,217 I haven't-- Is that quote still relevant? 63 00:03:37,301 --> 00:03:38,635 Can I still-- 64 00:03:38,719 --> 00:03:40,220 Is that even useful that quote? 65 00:03:41,346 --> 00:03:42,723 So, yes. 66 00:03:42,806 --> 00:03:44,641 We've lost the war on guns. 67 00:03:44,725 --> 00:03:46,476 Personally, I knew it was over after Sandy Hook. 68 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,146 We had a chance to pick guns or kindergartners, and… 69 00:03:50,355 --> 00:03:51,648 we went with guns. 70 00:03:51,732 --> 00:03:57,112 There are 393 million guns in America, 71 00:03:57,196 --> 00:03:58,739 and I don't want to be judgy, 72 00:03:59,698 --> 00:04:01,533 but I think it's gotten absurd. 73 00:04:01,617 --> 00:04:03,535 Hunting season has arrived. 74 00:04:03,619 --> 00:04:06,121 Diamond hunting season that is. 75 00:04:06,205 --> 00:04:08,081 If you have your sights set on this, 76 00:04:08,165 --> 00:04:10,792 you can get this free from Lee Ann's Fine Jewelry. 77 00:04:17,257 --> 00:04:20,385 Every kill begins with K 78 00:04:21,845 --> 00:04:23,013 So here-- 79 00:04:27,726 --> 00:04:29,228 I've really missed that. 80 00:04:31,438 --> 00:04:32,481 So here's the deal. 81 00:04:33,982 --> 00:04:37,736 The problem with guns is that there's too many of them. 82 00:04:37,819 --> 00:04:42,366 And while research clearly shows mo guns mo deaths, 83 00:04:42,449 --> 00:04:45,369 let's defer to the victors in this war. 84 00:04:46,036 --> 00:04:47,621 Mr. NRA, 85 00:04:47,704 --> 00:04:52,209 do you have any thoughts on how the rest of us could die less? 86 00:04:52,292 --> 00:04:55,754 Lean in. Listen to me now. 87 00:04:57,005 --> 00:04:58,674 Go on. 88 00:04:58,757 --> 00:05:01,677 And never forget these words… 89 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,513 Spit it out. 90 00:05:04,596 --> 00:05:08,684 To stop a bad guy with a gun, 91 00:05:08,767 --> 00:05:12,521 it takes a good guy with a gun. 92 00:05:13,313 --> 00:05:14,648 Yes. 93 00:05:14,731 --> 00:05:16,066 Why didn't I think of that? 94 00:05:16,817 --> 00:05:17,985 Shoot-outs. 95 00:05:19,111 --> 00:05:21,488 One question very quickly: 96 00:05:21,572 --> 00:05:23,866 How can you tell who's a good guy? 97 00:05:24,950 --> 00:05:27,119 You know what? Maybe, I guess, just ask them. 98 00:05:27,202 --> 00:05:30,163 I'm sure people are generally honest about that. 99 00:05:30,247 --> 00:05:32,374 I was a good guy on the street. 100 00:05:32,457 --> 00:05:35,377 I'm sure when Bruce gets here, he'll tell you I was always a good guy. 101 00:05:43,093 --> 00:05:44,469 O.J. gets a gun. 102 00:05:46,471 --> 00:05:48,098 That's probably fine. 103 00:05:49,349 --> 00:05:51,393 Not his weapon of choice allegedly. 104 00:05:52,102 --> 00:05:53,103 You know-- 105 00:05:57,191 --> 00:06:00,235 Are you taking O.J.'s side? 106 00:06:00,319 --> 00:06:02,112 Did that really just happen? 107 00:06:03,697 --> 00:06:05,782 O.J. knife joke and they're like, 108 00:06:05,866 --> 00:06:06,867 "Hey, buddy." 109 00:06:09,578 --> 00:06:11,246 "He's paid his dues." 110 00:06:15,626 --> 00:06:18,253 You know what? Actually, they're right. 111 00:06:18,337 --> 00:06:20,589 Doesn't make sense. You know what's probably better? 112 00:06:21,673 --> 00:06:22,966 Don't let somebody tell you themselves. 113 00:06:23,050 --> 00:06:25,052 They're probably gonna lie. References. 114 00:06:25,135 --> 00:06:26,929 'Cause everyone's gonna say they're a good guy. 115 00:06:27,012 --> 00:06:32,559 Maybe you know if a guy is good if a different good guy gives him a vouch. 116 00:06:32,643 --> 00:06:36,271 There's a guy I'd like to really thank here that people don't thank enough, 117 00:06:36,355 --> 00:06:39,858 but there's a kindly, wonderful, gentle man 118 00:06:39,942 --> 00:06:41,860 that we all deeply love. 119 00:06:42,569 --> 00:06:44,238 His name is Harvey Weinstein. 120 00:06:49,201 --> 00:06:51,286 Harvey Weinstein gets a gun. 121 00:06:52,871 --> 00:06:55,624 You know what? This isn't gonna work. 122 00:06:56,166 --> 00:06:58,544 We're not gonna be able to define good guys, 123 00:06:58,627 --> 00:07:02,589 so let's just focus on maybe keeping guns away from bad guys. 124 00:07:03,090 --> 00:07:06,552 Like terrorists. They shouldn't have guns. 125 00:07:06,635 --> 00:07:08,637 A loophole in federal gun laws 126 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,266 allows suspected terrorists to buy guns here in the US, 127 00:07:12,349 --> 00:07:13,600 and they have. 128 00:07:14,226 --> 00:07:15,227 What the fuck? 129 00:07:16,103 --> 00:07:20,232 If you're on the terrorist watch list, you can have a gun? 130 00:07:20,899 --> 00:07:21,942 Okay. 131 00:07:22,025 --> 00:07:24,570 What about registered sex offenders? 132 00:07:25,404 --> 00:07:28,407 Turns out sex offenders apparently also need guns. 133 00:07:28,490 --> 00:07:32,286 So, we obviously can't agree on who the good guys are, 134 00:07:32,369 --> 00:07:35,122 and we can't seem to agree on who the bad guys are. 135 00:07:35,664 --> 00:07:37,457 So what are we supposed to do here? 136 00:07:37,541 --> 00:07:40,794 It's not a sci-fi Tom Cruise movie where we have some magical premonition 137 00:07:40,878 --> 00:07:43,255 of which bad guys are about to commit a violent crime 138 00:07:43,338 --> 00:07:46,008 and can intervene in the crime before it's too late. 139 00:07:47,384 --> 00:07:48,552 Or is it? 140 00:07:48,635 --> 00:07:52,890 It appears a domestic dispute led to the massacre at a Texas church 141 00:07:52,973 --> 00:07:55,434 that left at least 26 people dead. 142 00:07:55,517 --> 00:07:58,645 The gunman, Devin Kelley, had a history of domestic violence. 143 00:07:58,729 --> 00:08:00,814 The GOP shooting at the baseball diamond-- 144 00:08:00,898 --> 00:08:02,816 He had a history of domestic violence. 145 00:08:02,900 --> 00:08:05,194 Reports of domestic abuse, domestic violence. 146 00:08:05,277 --> 00:08:07,237 …domestic violence complaints against him… 147 00:08:07,321 --> 00:08:08,906 …and an allegation of domestic violence. 148 00:08:08,989 --> 00:08:10,282 …history of domestic violence… 149 00:08:10,365 --> 00:08:12,326 Six arrests for domestic violence. 150 00:08:12,409 --> 00:08:14,494 -…domestic violence… -…domestic violence… 151 00:08:14,578 --> 00:08:18,332 Twenty years old, and already has a domestic violence history. 152 00:08:19,708 --> 00:08:22,878 Domestic violence offenders. 153 00:08:22,961 --> 00:08:27,382 It turns out domestic violence is a predictor for gun violence. 154 00:08:27,466 --> 00:08:30,636 In fact, there's a study that suggests, "A felony domestic violence conviction 155 00:08:30,719 --> 00:08:35,640 is the single greatest predictor of future violent crime among men." 156 00:08:35,724 --> 00:08:38,227 This is our sci-fi movie fix. 157 00:08:38,309 --> 00:08:41,313 'Cause if we simply kept guns away from domestic violence offenders, 158 00:08:41,395 --> 00:08:46,151 we could potentially stop 60% of mass shootings. 159 00:08:46,235 --> 00:08:48,737 Thirty percent of child firearm deaths. 160 00:08:48,820 --> 00:08:50,781 More than 50% of women-- 161 00:08:50,864 --> 00:08:53,075 Sixty-five percent. Seventy-five-- 162 00:08:53,158 --> 00:08:55,285 Okay, I'm sorry. Fuckload. 163 00:08:57,371 --> 00:09:01,834 Every 14 hours an American woman is shot dead by an intimate partner. 164 00:09:02,835 --> 00:09:05,045 And you might not care about any of that. 165 00:09:05,128 --> 00:09:09,258 And if you're the type of person who doesn't care about any of that, 166 00:09:09,341 --> 00:09:12,094 I do think I know an area that may speak to you more. 167 00:09:12,594 --> 00:09:16,098 Two police officers shot and killed responding to a domestic violence call. 168 00:09:16,181 --> 00:09:20,727 A rookie police officer was gunned down responding to a domestic violence call. 169 00:09:20,811 --> 00:09:23,981 …shot and killed early this morning responding to a domestic violence call. 170 00:09:24,064 --> 00:09:27,025 …shot and killed while responding to a domestic violence call. 171 00:09:27,109 --> 00:09:29,152 …responding to a domestic violence call. 172 00:09:29,236 --> 00:09:31,238 …shot and killed in the line of duty. 173 00:09:31,321 --> 00:09:34,032 They were reportedly responding to a domestic violence call. 174 00:09:34,116 --> 00:09:37,661 It turns out removing guns from domestic violence offenders 175 00:09:37,744 --> 00:09:39,580 also backs the blue. 176 00:09:40,163 --> 00:09:41,623 Between 2015 and 2016, 177 00:09:41,707 --> 00:09:46,378 domestic dispute calls made up 41% of all fatal police calls. 178 00:09:46,461 --> 00:09:48,297 For police, domestic violence calls 179 00:09:48,380 --> 00:09:52,176 are the single most dangerous calls that they respond to. 180 00:09:52,259 --> 00:09:55,596 So why are we letting these wife-beating cop killers 181 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:57,764 get away with literal mass murder? 182 00:09:58,473 --> 00:10:00,475 And why is the Lifetime channel the only network 183 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:02,728 covering this phenomenon 24 hours a day? 184 00:10:07,065 --> 00:10:09,985 Oh, Tiffani Amber Thiessen, I hope you get out. 185 00:10:15,824 --> 00:10:18,243 You guys saw that one too, right? It was-- you know. 186 00:10:18,327 --> 00:10:19,912 It's entertaining, but I saw it coming. 187 00:10:21,038 --> 00:10:23,957 We treat domestic violence like it's a tampon commercial. 188 00:10:24,041 --> 00:10:25,250 "Ignore the blood. 189 00:10:25,334 --> 00:10:27,961 Pay attention to the dancing women in the white shorts. 190 00:10:28,045 --> 00:10:29,755 They're smiling. It's springtime. 191 00:10:29,838 --> 00:10:31,590 Everything's fine!" 192 00:10:33,050 --> 00:10:34,593 By the way, the law already says 193 00:10:34,676 --> 00:10:36,720 domestic violence offenders can't have guns. 194 00:10:36,803 --> 00:10:38,931 If we just enforced that law, 195 00:10:39,014 --> 00:10:41,266 we would prevent other types of gun violence, 196 00:10:41,350 --> 00:10:44,269 the kind that actually makes the news. 197 00:10:44,353 --> 00:10:49,483 It's not a solution, but it's a real harm reduction model for gun violence. 198 00:10:49,566 --> 00:10:50,984 Unless, of course… 199 00:10:52,110 --> 00:10:55,364 Mr. NRA, you have a better solution on the table? 200 00:10:55,447 --> 00:10:57,783 Arm America's women. 201 00:10:58,700 --> 00:11:00,118 Go fuck yourself. 202 00:11:06,375 --> 00:11:09,878 Hey, guys. It's your old pal Uncle Glock here, 203 00:11:09,962 --> 00:11:12,297 and I want to talk to you about safety, 204 00:11:12,381 --> 00:11:15,843 and the scourge that is domestic violence. 205 00:11:15,926 --> 00:11:19,555 Did you know because of the curse of domestic violence, 206 00:11:19,638 --> 00:11:23,308 you could lose custody… of me? 207 00:11:23,851 --> 00:11:27,229 Every day, because of the evils of our judicial overlords, 208 00:11:27,312 --> 00:11:31,358 countless innocent guns are in jeopardy. 209 00:11:31,441 --> 00:11:36,071 Never again will they shoot a bullet into the sky just for funsies. 210 00:11:36,154 --> 00:11:39,700 They'll never get pulled out at a party to impress a cool new friend. 211 00:11:39,783 --> 00:11:45,455 Some of these guns will never get to be in a prom photo with your daughter's date. 212 00:11:45,539 --> 00:11:46,540 So I beg you, 213 00:11:46,623 --> 00:11:51,128 the next time your significant other just won't fucking listen, 214 00:11:51,211 --> 00:11:53,297 I'm telling you, take a breath. 215 00:11:53,380 --> 00:11:57,134 Just fucking take-- Just calm the fuck down! 216 00:11:58,343 --> 00:11:59,678 For the guns. 217 00:12:00,846 --> 00:12:02,514 Can't you think of the guns? 218 00:12:10,355 --> 00:12:12,065 This is my dream episode 219 00:12:12,149 --> 00:12:17,029 because-- because I didn't like-- because I lived it. 'Cause I lived it. 220 00:12:17,696 --> 00:12:19,573 When we read the stats, I'm always like, 221 00:12:20,490 --> 00:12:21,825 "That's me." 222 00:12:21,909 --> 00:12:23,577 Like I'm the statistic. 223 00:12:23,660 --> 00:12:27,789 But the other really important thing around gun violence and domestic violence 224 00:12:27,873 --> 00:12:29,499 is that people are always-- 225 00:12:29,583 --> 00:12:32,252 There's, like, shame and silence, and so then, nothing can move forward. 226 00:12:32,336 --> 00:12:36,006 You can't get the proper statistics, and so the only way to combat that 227 00:12:36,089 --> 00:12:40,427 is to talk about it, make hot content about it, 228 00:12:40,511 --> 00:12:41,678 -and… -Hot content, baby! 229 00:12:41,762 --> 00:12:42,763 …that's right! 230 00:12:42,846 --> 00:12:44,765 And make jokes about it. 231 00:12:47,935 --> 00:12:50,062 Okay. Welcome back. 232 00:12:51,313 --> 00:12:54,399 We're gonna begin our discussion with great news. 233 00:12:54,483 --> 00:12:56,985 Congress has passed a bipartisan law 234 00:12:57,069 --> 00:13:00,322 that prevents domestic violence offenders from having guns. 235 00:13:00,405 --> 00:13:03,659 The bad news is it hasn't been updated since 1996 236 00:13:03,742 --> 00:13:05,285 and it contains dangerous loopholes. 237 00:13:05,369 --> 00:13:09,081 Not only that, but it's often up to state and local communities 238 00:13:09,164 --> 00:13:12,876 to enforce these existing laws, which isn't always happening. 239 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:15,504 And to help understand why, we're going to have, joining us today, 240 00:13:15,587 --> 00:13:16,922 April Ross. 241 00:13:17,005 --> 00:13:19,132 She is a survivor, attorney, 242 00:13:19,216 --> 00:13:21,301 and domestic violence and firearms advocate. 243 00:13:21,385 --> 00:13:23,887 And Janet Paulsen, also a survivor 244 00:13:23,971 --> 00:13:26,014 and an advocate who came to know April 245 00:13:26,098 --> 00:13:29,184 when they were both in a physical rehab center. 246 00:13:29,268 --> 00:13:32,354 Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining us. 247 00:13:36,108 --> 00:13:37,317 April. 248 00:13:39,653 --> 00:13:42,114 Tell us a little bit about your story 249 00:13:42,197 --> 00:13:45,951 and how you came to be an advocate for this kind of legislation. 250 00:13:46,994 --> 00:13:51,123 I met my husband when I was in high school. 251 00:13:51,206 --> 00:13:54,710 We dated off and on for roughly 15 years. 252 00:13:55,794 --> 00:13:59,590 I mean, he was always unfaithful. He was always with multiple women. 253 00:14:00,257 --> 00:14:02,926 So January 2014, I moved out. 254 00:14:03,010 --> 00:14:04,303 I moved in with my parents. 255 00:14:04,386 --> 00:14:06,471 He always told me once we got married 256 00:14:06,555 --> 00:14:08,765 that there was only one way out of a marriage, 257 00:14:08,849 --> 00:14:10,142 and that was in the grave. 258 00:14:10,225 --> 00:14:12,436 -He had told you that? -Yes, many times. 259 00:14:13,145 --> 00:14:17,441 It made me nervous enough that I went to work and I told our investigator, 260 00:14:17,524 --> 00:14:22,154 the paralegal, and one of the attorneys that was working on the trial team 261 00:14:22,237 --> 00:14:24,072 that I was working on at the time. 262 00:14:24,156 --> 00:14:28,160 They then suggested that I go and get a temporary protective order. 263 00:14:28,869 --> 00:14:32,164 And I thought about it, but I decided against it. 264 00:14:32,247 --> 00:14:36,543 As a person who had helped many victims and survivors 265 00:14:36,627 --> 00:14:39,505 get protective orders over the years, 266 00:14:39,588 --> 00:14:42,216 I thought I knew what domestic violence was. 267 00:14:42,299 --> 00:14:44,384 He wasn't physically abusing me. 268 00:14:45,093 --> 00:14:47,012 But there was financial abuse, 269 00:14:47,846 --> 00:14:49,932 psychological and emotional abuse. 270 00:14:50,432 --> 00:14:51,808 -Right. -But… 271 00:14:51,892 --> 00:14:54,394 He pretended to cooperate with me. 272 00:14:54,478 --> 00:14:55,938 He was gonna get the house. 273 00:14:56,772 --> 00:14:58,649 He was gonna get half of our joint account. 274 00:14:59,900 --> 00:15:01,735 And we didn't have any children. 275 00:15:01,818 --> 00:15:04,530 And you don't feel a sense of impending danger. 276 00:15:04,613 --> 00:15:08,617 -You don't feel doom. -Not immediately. 277 00:15:08,700 --> 00:15:10,035 No, not immediately. 278 00:15:10,118 --> 00:15:14,248 The thing about relationships is that-- Even domestic abuse relationships, 279 00:15:14,331 --> 00:15:15,832 they start in love. 280 00:15:15,916 --> 00:15:18,961 So it's really hard to reach the conclusion 281 00:15:19,044 --> 00:15:20,420 that it will end in death-- 282 00:15:20,504 --> 00:15:21,588 in violent death. 283 00:15:22,548 --> 00:15:27,719 Most women who are killed or almost killed by their abusers 284 00:15:27,803 --> 00:15:28,804 never see it coming. 285 00:15:28,887 --> 00:15:30,347 You can't see that coming. 286 00:15:30,931 --> 00:15:31,932 For me… 287 00:15:34,059 --> 00:15:37,688 I was taking a friend on an errand, 288 00:15:37,771 --> 00:15:41,400 and I was dropping that friend off at home before I headed to work. 289 00:15:41,483 --> 00:15:44,444 And I was looking down for a moment, 290 00:15:44,528 --> 00:15:47,614 and then I looked over in the passenger seat to say something, 291 00:15:47,698 --> 00:15:50,033 and before I could open my mouth, 292 00:15:50,117 --> 00:15:54,079 his body was right there in the window outside the car. 293 00:15:54,705 --> 00:15:57,875 He didn't look down. I never saw his face. I just saw his torso. 294 00:15:57,958 --> 00:16:02,546 And before I could blink, really, and think of the next move, 295 00:16:02,629 --> 00:16:03,630 his hand was coming up, 296 00:16:03,714 --> 00:16:07,092 and I barely even saw the gun before it went off. 297 00:16:07,176 --> 00:16:11,638 I just remember the pop and the smell of-- the burning smell 298 00:16:11,722 --> 00:16:13,640 and every-- like, my head ringing. 299 00:16:14,641 --> 00:16:17,394 I got shot in the jaw through and through. 300 00:16:18,478 --> 00:16:22,149 I think I threw my arm up, and a bullet went through my forearm. 301 00:16:22,649 --> 00:16:25,986 And I think I slumped over at that point. 302 00:16:26,612 --> 00:16:30,741 And another bullet went into my back, 303 00:16:30,824 --> 00:16:33,827 and that's the bullet that paralyzed me from the chest down. 304 00:16:35,913 --> 00:16:38,624 He believed I was dead, and I think-- 305 00:16:39,291 --> 00:16:42,711 You know, I guess I didn't have the strength to stay conscious, 306 00:16:42,794 --> 00:16:44,254 but that's what saved my life. 307 00:16:44,338 --> 00:16:47,674 Because if he thought I was still alive, he would have kept shooting. 308 00:16:49,676 --> 00:16:50,802 That's… 309 00:16:52,679 --> 00:16:58,894 incredible in how, like you say, something that begins in love 310 00:16:58,977 --> 00:17:03,607 has such, you know, violent anger behind it. 311 00:17:04,983 --> 00:17:08,779 Janet, your story is unfortunately all too similar, 312 00:17:08,862 --> 00:17:10,739 but also with very different-- 313 00:17:10,821 --> 00:17:13,367 -You saw this coming down a highway. -Yeah. 314 00:17:14,326 --> 00:17:19,122 I knew that I was going to pay a price to divorce him. 315 00:17:19,205 --> 00:17:22,041 I had been married 15 years and-- 316 00:17:23,752 --> 00:17:25,753 Two children, identical twin boys. 317 00:17:25,838 --> 00:17:29,800 And there were some mental health issues. 318 00:17:29,883 --> 00:17:32,302 He had terrible mood swings. 319 00:17:32,386 --> 00:17:36,849 He was always getting into shouting matches with people. 320 00:17:37,891 --> 00:17:41,436 I also-- Like April, I wasn't physically abused. 321 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:43,480 You know, that's such a misconception. 322 00:17:43,564 --> 00:17:49,027 For me it was emotional abuse, sexual abuse and psychological abuse. 323 00:17:49,111 --> 00:17:55,325 And alcohol use really just made those issues even worse. 324 00:17:55,409 --> 00:18:00,956 And it came to a point where my boys, who were 13 at the time, 325 00:18:01,456 --> 00:18:05,460 came to me and they said that he was drinking in the car with them. 326 00:18:06,545 --> 00:18:08,714 You know, so I went to him and I said, "Look. 327 00:18:08,797 --> 00:18:11,592 It's time for us to get a divorce." 328 00:18:12,301 --> 00:18:14,553 And he looked at me and he said, 329 00:18:14,636 --> 00:18:16,972 "Why don't you go upstairs and get the boys 330 00:18:17,055 --> 00:18:19,558 and try and leave and see what happens to you?" 331 00:18:21,602 --> 00:18:25,230 I was like, "You're-- You're scaring me. Why are-- Why are you saying that?" 332 00:18:26,023 --> 00:18:29,776 And he was like, "No. Go ahead. Try. See what happens to you." 333 00:18:31,612 --> 00:18:33,238 The police and my attorney… 334 00:18:34,656 --> 00:18:36,491 told me I needed to get a temporary protective order. 335 00:18:36,575 --> 00:18:37,576 Right. 336 00:18:38,327 --> 00:18:42,372 Now, he was a huge gun enthusiast. There were 74 firearms in my house. 337 00:18:42,456 --> 00:18:43,916 -Seventy-four? -Yes. 338 00:18:44,499 --> 00:18:47,294 Most of them were locked in two big gun safes. 339 00:18:47,377 --> 00:18:51,173 But he liked to carry, so he always had one on his ankle. 340 00:18:51,256 --> 00:18:54,468 There was one in his vehicle, one in his desk drawer. 341 00:18:54,551 --> 00:18:56,303 And… 342 00:18:56,887 --> 00:18:59,264 It was granted. I was granted that protective order. 343 00:18:59,348 --> 00:19:00,849 And they would come and take the guns? 344 00:19:01,725 --> 00:19:02,976 All but one. 345 00:19:04,853 --> 00:19:05,854 All but one? 346 00:19:05,938 --> 00:19:08,732 They let him leave with the firearm in his truck. 347 00:19:09,316 --> 00:19:11,818 Yeah, she told me she couldn't get it. It was a gray area. 348 00:19:11,902 --> 00:19:13,987 He shot me with it five days later. 349 00:19:16,198 --> 00:19:17,407 He ambushed me. 350 00:19:17,491 --> 00:19:22,746 He was hiding on the side of the house with a gun holster, 351 00:19:22,829 --> 00:19:24,623 a Smith and Wesson 9 millimeter, 352 00:19:24,706 --> 00:19:26,708 and an extra box of ammunition. 353 00:19:27,417 --> 00:19:30,921 He thought I was at football practice with my father and the boys, 354 00:19:31,755 --> 00:19:32,756 which we were. 355 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:34,716 He was waiting on all of us. 356 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,469 I just happened to come home early, by myself, 357 00:19:37,553 --> 00:19:39,763 'cause I had groceries in the car. 358 00:19:39,847 --> 00:19:43,016 I was shot six times with the 9 millimeter. 359 00:19:43,100 --> 00:19:45,978 He shattered my right femur. 360 00:19:46,061 --> 00:19:48,021 He shattered my left knee. 361 00:19:48,105 --> 00:19:50,607 I have a through and through in my thigh. 362 00:19:50,691 --> 00:19:53,318 I have a through and through in my abdomen. 363 00:19:53,402 --> 00:19:55,737 He took out a third of my right lung. 364 00:19:55,821 --> 00:19:58,615 And then the last shot hit my L2 vertebrae. 365 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:07,875 One of the things that feels the hardest when you're all discussing it 366 00:20:07,958 --> 00:20:13,964 is the concern that judges seem to have 367 00:20:14,047 --> 00:20:15,591 for the abuser 368 00:20:15,674 --> 00:20:20,262 and the concern law enforcement seems to have for the gun. 369 00:20:20,345 --> 00:20:23,974 And it feels like more steps are taken 370 00:20:24,057 --> 00:20:30,355 to make sure that the abuser's due process isn't violated, 371 00:20:30,439 --> 00:20:31,690 and their concern is, 372 00:20:32,274 --> 00:20:34,610 "Can't get the gun in the car. That's the gun. 373 00:20:34,693 --> 00:20:37,487 -I don't want to overstep my gun getting." -Right. 374 00:20:37,571 --> 00:20:39,823 Family violence and domestic violence offenses 375 00:20:39,907 --> 00:20:41,533 are classified as misdemeanors. 376 00:20:42,075 --> 00:20:44,036 And when people hear the term "misdemeanor," 377 00:20:44,703 --> 00:20:47,164 they think nonserious crime. 378 00:20:47,247 --> 00:20:49,958 We need to get to point where law enforcement doesn't have 379 00:20:50,042 --> 00:20:53,921 that kind of hesitancy or lackadaisical attitude about-- 380 00:20:54,004 --> 00:20:56,924 He should have been taken in for the aggravated stalking, 381 00:20:57,007 --> 00:20:58,592 -which would have been a felony. -Right. 382 00:20:58,675 --> 00:21:01,470 And he wouldn't have gotten bail. He wouldn't have bonded out. 383 00:21:01,553 --> 00:21:04,556 And he wouldn't have been able to, four days later, shoot her. 384 00:21:06,183 --> 00:21:09,645 So, I want to let the audience know, in the dressing room, 385 00:21:09,728 --> 00:21:11,897 -your friend is back there. -Yeah. 386 00:21:11,980 --> 00:21:14,691 -And she's just lost her daughter. -Yeah. 387 00:21:14,775 --> 00:21:16,485 -To domestic violence. -Yes. 388 00:21:16,568 --> 00:21:21,615 I thought the two of you had met in some kind of support group, 389 00:21:21,698 --> 00:21:25,118 and she said, "Oh, no. We've been friends since we were kids. 390 00:21:25,202 --> 00:21:26,703 I live right up the street." 391 00:21:27,246 --> 00:21:31,667 Her beautiful daughter was shot and killed by her boyfriend 392 00:21:31,750 --> 00:21:33,544 when she was 19 years old. 393 00:21:34,127 --> 00:21:37,548 To my mind, this is an unseen and unheard epidemic. 394 00:21:38,674 --> 00:21:40,968 And so we're gonna come back and talk a little bit 395 00:21:41,051 --> 00:21:43,512 about how we gain control of it. 396 00:21:43,595 --> 00:21:45,180 -Yeah. -All right, we'll be right back. 397 00:21:51,436 --> 00:21:55,858 So the Lautenberg Amendment prohibits anyone in this country, 398 00:21:55,941 --> 00:21:58,944 regardless of where they live, who has been convicted 399 00:21:59,027 --> 00:22:01,822 of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence 400 00:22:01,905 --> 00:22:04,950 from purchasing a firearm or possessing a firearm. 401 00:22:05,033 --> 00:22:10,289 The federal law, however, does not require or even speak to removing firearms. 402 00:22:10,372 --> 00:22:12,624 There's no federal reference to that. 403 00:22:12,708 --> 00:22:15,460 What people, from professionals to the general public, 404 00:22:15,544 --> 00:22:20,382 could not wrap their heads around are the steps and the actual logistical pieces 405 00:22:20,465 --> 00:22:21,466 that need to happen. 406 00:22:21,550 --> 00:22:24,344 Everyone agreed, yes, this person should no longer have a gun. 407 00:22:24,428 --> 00:22:25,679 We agree on that. 408 00:22:25,762 --> 00:22:29,141 But how it actually gets done, they just couldn't fathom it. 409 00:22:29,224 --> 00:22:31,435 Often, whether you are safe 410 00:22:31,518 --> 00:22:35,814 depends on where you live, what law is in place in your state, 411 00:22:35,898 --> 00:22:38,942 and if you're in a county that will implement it. 412 00:22:39,026 --> 00:22:42,696 One of the most impactful statements that I have heard is-- 413 00:22:42,779 --> 00:22:46,033 has been between one police chief to another. 414 00:22:46,116 --> 00:22:48,785 When one chief was saying, "Where do I put all of these guns? 415 00:22:48,869 --> 00:22:50,996 There's gonna be hundreds of guns. Where are we gonna put them?" 416 00:22:51,079 --> 00:22:52,873 And the other chief just simply said, 417 00:22:52,956 --> 00:22:55,876 "The same place you put it after he kills her with it." 418 00:23:01,256 --> 00:23:04,551 We're talking with April Ross and Janet Paulsen. 419 00:23:05,260 --> 00:23:11,642 So, what allowed you guys to take this trauma and turn it into activism 420 00:23:11,725 --> 00:23:14,311 and start to advocate for victims? 421 00:23:14,394 --> 00:23:15,938 How did this come about for you? 422 00:23:16,021 --> 00:23:17,856 For me, I… 423 00:23:17,940 --> 00:23:22,569 Almost instantly, the news was clamoring to get to me when they found his body. 424 00:23:22,653 --> 00:23:24,154 -He killed himself. -Right. 425 00:23:24,238 --> 00:23:25,948 He killed himself a few hours later. 426 00:23:26,031 --> 00:23:29,993 And so the victim-blaming starts immediately. 427 00:23:30,619 --> 00:23:32,329 "She must have done something." 428 00:23:32,412 --> 00:23:35,791 And for me, oh, heaven forbid there was a man in my car, 429 00:23:35,874 --> 00:23:38,418 you know, so, "She must have been cheating." 430 00:23:38,502 --> 00:23:42,339 You know, "She was at another man's house," you know, so… 431 00:23:42,422 --> 00:23:44,424 And it's almost that "she got what she deserved" 432 00:23:44,508 --> 00:23:46,260 is the underlining message. 433 00:23:46,343 --> 00:23:47,594 I was getting furious, 434 00:23:47,678 --> 00:23:51,098 and finally I decided to reach out to a reporter friend of mine 435 00:23:51,181 --> 00:23:52,182 and give an interview. 436 00:23:52,266 --> 00:23:54,893 What slowly starts to happen is, you meet one person, 437 00:23:54,977 --> 00:23:58,105 and then you meet another, sort of how Janet and I got connected. 438 00:23:58,188 --> 00:24:02,234 I was sent to her hospital room as her peer support mentor, 439 00:24:02,317 --> 00:24:06,572 and, you know, I mentioned to her that I was slowly starting to do some advocacy, 440 00:24:06,655 --> 00:24:09,032 and I was trying to find a way to make a solution 441 00:24:09,116 --> 00:24:12,327 and bring some change so that this doesn't keep happening, 442 00:24:12,411 --> 00:24:14,746 and, "Do you want to do it too," and she said, "Yeah, I do." 443 00:24:14,830 --> 00:24:17,207 I said, "I don't know what we're gonna do, but we'll figure it out." 444 00:24:17,291 --> 00:24:19,543 -Right. -"When I figure it out, I'll call you." 445 00:24:19,626 --> 00:24:21,003 Yeah. Yeah. 446 00:24:21,086 --> 00:24:22,880 -You proposed legislation… -We did. 447 00:24:22,963 --> 00:24:24,882 …and it was not passed. 448 00:24:25,465 --> 00:24:31,597 In Georgia, we don't comply with federal gun laws. 449 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,016 So if you're under a protective order, 450 00:24:34,099 --> 00:24:37,936 or you have a domestic violence misdemeanor or felony, 451 00:24:38,020 --> 00:24:39,855 you've lost your rights to firearms. 452 00:24:39,938 --> 00:24:43,025 But some counties in Georgia do. 453 00:24:43,108 --> 00:24:45,569 -I happen to live in one that did. -That complies? 454 00:24:45,652 --> 00:24:48,238 All we asked for was for the state of Georgia 455 00:24:48,322 --> 00:24:50,532 -to comply with the federal law. -Right. 456 00:24:50,616 --> 00:24:54,203 And it's not just Georgia, by the way. This is not to make it seem like, 457 00:24:54,286 --> 00:24:56,205 "Oh, yeah, in Georgia, they got a real problem down there." 458 00:24:56,288 --> 00:24:57,915 -No, no, no. -Like, this is everywhere. 459 00:24:57,998 --> 00:24:58,999 Yeah. 460 00:24:59,082 --> 00:25:02,961 What's the way to build this so that women can feel safer 461 00:25:04,004 --> 00:25:05,964 getting out of these relationships? 462 00:25:06,048 --> 00:25:09,426 An officer had me hold up a piece of paper, 463 00:25:09,510 --> 00:25:12,471 and he said, "Okay, that piece of paper is your protective order," 464 00:25:12,554 --> 00:25:13,555 and then he took a pen, 465 00:25:13,639 --> 00:25:15,891 and he jabbed through the paper while I was holding it, 466 00:25:15,974 --> 00:25:17,017 and he said, "That's a bullet. 467 00:25:18,101 --> 00:25:19,520 You need to arm yourself." 468 00:25:19,603 --> 00:25:23,690 So, I went and I applied for a concealed carry permit. 469 00:25:24,858 --> 00:25:26,527 I own a firearm, 470 00:25:26,610 --> 00:25:31,156 and I was trained by a certified gun instructor on how to use it. 471 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:32,991 -Right. -And it actually, kind of, 472 00:25:33,075 --> 00:25:35,619 helped a little bit with my PTSD. 473 00:25:35,702 --> 00:25:39,498 Instead of me looking, you know, at the barrel of the gun, you know. 474 00:25:39,581 --> 00:25:41,792 That image kind of changed. 475 00:25:41,875 --> 00:25:43,627 But, you know, that's not the answer. 476 00:25:45,546 --> 00:25:48,340 We can't solve this problem at the shoot-out level. 477 00:25:48,423 --> 00:25:51,343 -No. -The idea that if your husband 478 00:25:51,426 --> 00:25:53,470 had come in with a weapon and shot you six times, 479 00:25:53,554 --> 00:25:56,598 that you could have outgunned him seems ludicrous. 480 00:25:56,682 --> 00:25:58,851 -It's ludicrous. -And if the police-- 481 00:25:58,934 --> 00:26:03,480 the place you're going to for protection is telling you, 482 00:26:03,564 --> 00:26:05,399 "We are deputizing you." 483 00:26:07,067 --> 00:26:08,610 That's giving up. 484 00:26:08,694 --> 00:26:10,070 In the prosecutor's office I worked in, 485 00:26:10,153 --> 00:26:13,740 with the investigators interacting with police officers every day, 486 00:26:13,824 --> 00:26:18,704 there was not a true understanding about domestic violence. 487 00:26:19,705 --> 00:26:22,541 They only see it when you get somebody black-and-blue in the face. 488 00:26:22,624 --> 00:26:25,711 And that is not what domestic violence looks like. 489 00:26:26,545 --> 00:26:29,631 It looks like a person walking down the street. 490 00:26:29,715 --> 00:26:35,012 You don't need to see a person bruised up to be able to agree or to acknowledge 491 00:26:35,095 --> 00:26:38,307 that they're in an abusive relationship, or that they're in danger. 492 00:26:38,390 --> 00:26:42,102 And so, officers need intensive domestic violence training 493 00:26:42,186 --> 00:26:43,687 as a part of the police academies. 494 00:26:43,770 --> 00:26:46,023 They need to understand cultural dynamics… 495 00:26:47,065 --> 00:26:52,779 because everybody that they go to for a call isn't gonna look like them, 496 00:26:52,863 --> 00:26:55,574 isn't gonna have the same life experiences and background as them. 497 00:26:55,657 --> 00:26:56,700 So they need to understand, 498 00:26:56,783 --> 00:27:01,246 so that they respect the person who called enough to take every call seriously. 499 00:27:01,330 --> 00:27:04,249 Stop worrying about if the person's gonna get back in that relationship. 500 00:27:04,333 --> 00:27:07,544 On average, it takes a woman nine times of trying to leave 501 00:27:07,628 --> 00:27:09,171 before they successfully leave a relationship. 502 00:27:09,254 --> 00:27:13,675 And I can tell you, I'm above average because I was-- 503 00:27:13,759 --> 00:27:15,719 It took me a whole lot more than nine, you know, 504 00:27:15,802 --> 00:27:18,472 -before I successfully left that marriage. -I took two. 505 00:27:18,555 --> 00:27:21,308 It's even also to look at-- If you look at a harm reduction model. 506 00:27:21,391 --> 00:27:25,562 So let's say they overstep on civil liberties, which, as we know, 507 00:27:25,646 --> 00:27:29,399 the police are not loath to do in other situations, you know. 508 00:27:29,483 --> 00:27:31,818 They'll pull people over. They'll do all kinds of things. 509 00:27:31,902 --> 00:27:35,489 Worse things worse, if it wasn't really a situation that was warranted, 510 00:27:35,572 --> 00:27:37,574 you lose custody of your gun for a month. 511 00:27:37,658 --> 00:27:40,619 -Right. -But if not, a life is saved. 512 00:27:40,702 --> 00:27:42,621 So how is that even in question? 513 00:27:42,704 --> 00:27:44,748 The argument you get a lot of times is, 514 00:27:44,831 --> 00:27:48,168 if you start here with pulling back gun rights, 515 00:27:48,252 --> 00:27:50,629 or if you take these guns away in this situation, 516 00:27:50,712 --> 00:27:52,422 then you'll just come up with another situation 517 00:27:52,506 --> 00:27:53,507 -where you can take guns. -Yeah. 518 00:27:53,590 --> 00:27:54,675 And then another. It's the-- 519 00:27:54,758 --> 00:27:56,218 And then they argue it's the slippery slope. 520 00:27:56,301 --> 00:27:59,763 It's not a slippery slope. We're already at the bottom of the hill. 521 00:27:59,847 --> 00:28:00,931 Yeah. 522 00:28:01,765 --> 00:28:04,226 So what's next for the dynamic duo? 523 00:28:04,309 --> 00:28:09,481 We have received a federal grant to build a family justice center. 524 00:28:09,565 --> 00:28:11,483 That's where you fill out your police report. 525 00:28:11,567 --> 00:28:15,195 Childcare is there, legal advisers, 526 00:28:15,279 --> 00:28:17,865 therapists. All in one place. 527 00:28:17,948 --> 00:28:20,284 Janet, like she mentioned earlier, lives in a community 528 00:28:20,367 --> 00:28:22,953 that has decided to take guns away from people 529 00:28:23,036 --> 00:28:24,663 when they get a protective order against them. 530 00:28:24,746 --> 00:28:26,790 -Right. -That didn't just happen on its own. 531 00:28:26,874 --> 00:28:29,376 Even though I agree we need the state law, 532 00:28:29,459 --> 00:28:33,130 community-level changes are a good way to start. 533 00:28:33,714 --> 00:28:35,007 Well, you guys are amazing. 534 00:28:35,090 --> 00:28:38,177 And I really appreciate you being here and talking about it. 535 00:28:38,260 --> 00:28:41,513 I have a feeling you're gonna make some enormous progress. 536 00:28:41,597 --> 00:28:44,057 -Hope so. Thank you. -Thank you so much. All right. 537 00:28:45,267 --> 00:28:47,603 April Ross. Janet Paulsen. We'll be right back after this. 538 00:28:48,562 --> 00:28:49,563 Thank you. 539 00:28:53,483 --> 00:28:55,986 You have a lot of the officers 540 00:28:56,069 --> 00:28:59,281 that don't believe in taking guns away from people, 541 00:28:59,364 --> 00:29:00,490 and then you have to point out, 542 00:29:00,574 --> 00:29:03,869 well, more officers were killed by DV perpetrators than any other group. 543 00:29:03,952 --> 00:29:06,580 You are not gonna see a bunch of ATF agents, you know, 544 00:29:06,663 --> 00:29:08,957 running around collecting guns on protection orders. 545 00:29:09,041 --> 00:29:12,377 They're usually looking for bigger fish to catch. 546 00:29:12,461 --> 00:29:13,629 They're issuing protective orders 547 00:29:13,712 --> 00:29:18,300 but they're not taking the firearms. The relinquishment's not happening. 548 00:29:18,383 --> 00:29:21,970 I think the biggest barrier is roadblocks we have mentally 549 00:29:22,054 --> 00:29:23,764 with each individual person. 550 00:29:23,847 --> 00:29:27,184 So we drafted a mandatory divestiture process, 551 00:29:28,060 --> 00:29:33,732 and believe it or not, in a red state, they voted, and it was 96 to 0. 552 00:29:33,815 --> 00:29:36,693 Absolutely no opposition at all. 553 00:29:36,777 --> 00:29:38,695 I was floored. 554 00:29:38,779 --> 00:29:42,115 You know, we're doing it here, in little old Lafourche, 555 00:29:42,199 --> 00:29:45,661 south Louisiana, where everybody has firearms. 556 00:29:45,744 --> 00:29:48,997 Changing police culture is like bending granite. 557 00:29:49,081 --> 00:29:51,208 I mean, you need heat, time and pressure. 558 00:29:51,750 --> 00:29:54,086 And you can do it with all three of those things. 559 00:29:57,339 --> 00:29:59,925 The federal law is that if you have a protection order 560 00:30:00,008 --> 00:30:02,344 or a restraining order, or you've been convicted of domestic violence, 561 00:30:02,427 --> 00:30:03,804 you cannot own a firearm. 562 00:30:03,887 --> 00:30:05,639 True. Or ammunition. 563 00:30:05,722 --> 00:30:07,391 Or ammunition. 564 00:30:07,474 --> 00:30:11,728 But there doesn't seem to be a dissemination of that 565 00:30:11,812 --> 00:30:16,191 into local and state-level enforcement. 566 00:30:17,276 --> 00:30:19,987 That doesn't serve their interests. 567 00:30:20,737 --> 00:30:23,907 Why is law enforcement not taking the lead 568 00:30:23,991 --> 00:30:27,703 and weeding out bad guys with guns? 569 00:30:28,871 --> 00:30:30,539 I would say that… 570 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,751 a lot of the obstacles are cultural. 571 00:30:34,835 --> 00:30:40,340 As cops, we're human beings who bring all of our biases to the job. 572 00:30:40,424 --> 00:30:44,469 So if we're a conservative white male and a member of the NRA, 573 00:30:44,553 --> 00:30:48,599 you're already in the headspace that gun laws are bad, 574 00:30:48,682 --> 00:30:51,351 everyone needs a gun, and good guys will prevail. 575 00:30:51,435 --> 00:30:53,562 There's a certain portion of that going on. 576 00:30:53,645 --> 00:30:55,772 But I would say it's not, you know-- 577 00:30:55,856 --> 00:31:00,277 I think we have a tendency to say, like, "Okay, a conservative white man," 578 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,238 but those aren't the only people that dismiss women's concerns. 579 00:31:03,322 --> 00:31:07,367 It's a problem in rural communities, it's a problem in cities, 580 00:31:07,451 --> 00:31:12,206 it's a problem in suburbs, and it's all of the same dynamic. 581 00:31:12,289 --> 00:31:13,540 I agree with you. 582 00:31:13,624 --> 00:31:16,627 I mean, I agree with how defeating this is. 583 00:31:16,710 --> 00:31:18,587 -Right. -And we have to also understand, 584 00:31:18,670 --> 00:31:20,589 like, who are the actors making the decision? 585 00:31:20,672 --> 00:31:23,842 We know. There have been studies done 586 00:31:23,926 --> 00:31:27,763 that show that for law enforcement themselves, as people, 587 00:31:27,846 --> 00:31:31,642 there's higher incidence of domestic violence in their own homes. 588 00:31:31,725 --> 00:31:33,310 People don't wanna say, like, 589 00:31:33,393 --> 00:31:36,563 "Hey, I had a bad situation in my home that was violent." 590 00:31:36,647 --> 00:31:38,023 -Right. -"And I'm worried, like, 591 00:31:38,106 --> 00:31:40,943 that person's mad at me, and they could use this law to take away my gun, 592 00:31:41,026 --> 00:31:42,236 and if that happens, I lose my job." 593 00:31:42,319 --> 00:31:44,613 Like there are all these other motivations going on. 594 00:31:44,696 --> 00:31:46,615 -Right. -There's also this, sort of, 595 00:31:46,698 --> 00:31:48,325 throwing their hands up, saying, like, 596 00:31:48,408 --> 00:31:52,246 "Gun violence is a problem that can't be stopped." 597 00:31:52,996 --> 00:31:53,997 Really? 598 00:31:54,081 --> 00:31:55,207 It's just gonna happen. 599 00:31:55,290 --> 00:31:58,168 It's part of the cost of doing business, 600 00:31:58,252 --> 00:32:01,672 no laws are gonna prevent criminals from getting guns. 601 00:32:01,755 --> 00:32:03,006 Even if I took that gun, 602 00:32:03,090 --> 00:32:06,635 that guy could have gone out and bought another one just that day, or built one. 603 00:32:06,718 --> 00:32:10,055 -Like, there's this frustration, like-- -But then why have any laws? 604 00:32:10,138 --> 00:32:12,349 Drunk driving was a problem, 605 00:32:12,432 --> 00:32:15,227 so we created programs against drunk driving, 606 00:32:15,310 --> 00:32:20,858 and the police would set up drunk-driving checks 607 00:32:20,941 --> 00:32:22,442 on the streets, right? 608 00:32:22,526 --> 00:32:23,610 And you could make the argument, 609 00:32:23,694 --> 00:32:25,821 "Well, that's a violation of the Fourth Amendment." 610 00:32:25,904 --> 00:32:29,032 They did make the argument and, you know, it was controversial, 611 00:32:29,116 --> 00:32:30,117 but it passed through. 612 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,619 -So it's all about rewards, right? -Right. 613 00:32:32,703 --> 00:32:35,163 So the federal government would send money 614 00:32:35,247 --> 00:32:39,001 to police departments through probably transportation 615 00:32:39,084 --> 00:32:42,129 to pay for overtime for those officers doing that. 616 00:32:42,212 --> 00:32:46,258 But we decided, as a culture, drunk driving is a problem. 617 00:32:46,341 --> 00:32:47,342 Too many people are dying. 618 00:32:47,426 --> 00:32:52,431 It's a problem we're willing to commit to owning 619 00:32:52,514 --> 00:32:55,559 and paying for to solve, and there were incentives 620 00:32:55,642 --> 00:32:56,935 -to be good at it. -Right. 621 00:32:57,019 --> 00:33:01,148 You got overtime, you're gonna be given awards if you catch a lot of people. 622 00:33:01,231 --> 00:33:04,109 I mean, there was like-- It was carrots everywhere. 623 00:33:04,193 --> 00:33:06,486 Like, I think that's a model for success. 624 00:33:07,321 --> 00:33:12,201 How do you de-escalate law-enforcement resistance? 625 00:33:12,284 --> 00:33:14,912 I think it's pretty clear now that the federal approach 626 00:33:14,995 --> 00:33:17,998 is probably not the one that's going to be very effective. 627 00:33:18,081 --> 00:33:21,543 We live in an environment where we're not gonna pass federal laws. 628 00:33:21,627 --> 00:33:23,795 All right, so fighting that fight, even though that-- 629 00:33:24,963 --> 00:33:26,298 -I mean, we're not, so-- -I know. 630 00:33:26,381 --> 00:33:28,634 -So like-- -It's a funny thing to say out loud. 631 00:33:28,717 --> 00:33:29,718 We live in an environment-- 632 00:33:29,801 --> 00:33:32,137 Especially when your job is trying to advocate, 633 00:33:32,221 --> 00:33:36,350 and we do seem, to some degree, able to throw money at problems. 634 00:33:36,433 --> 00:33:38,352 Police are strapped in their budgets, 635 00:33:38,435 --> 00:33:42,272 and so, if you can give funding from the federal government 636 00:33:42,356 --> 00:33:44,983 that's coming outside the normal local mechanism, 637 00:33:45,067 --> 00:33:47,653 and ask them to do programs and priorities, 638 00:33:47,736 --> 00:33:51,240 people do what they have the resources to do. 639 00:33:51,323 --> 00:33:55,619 And they don't need legislative, then, approval because laws already exist. 640 00:33:55,702 --> 00:33:58,705 We have plenty we can do with the laws on the books now. 641 00:33:58,789 --> 00:34:01,208 You know, the first thing I ask is 642 00:34:01,291 --> 00:34:04,294 would you have taken the same action as a law enforcement 643 00:34:04,378 --> 00:34:06,004 if that woman was your sister? 644 00:34:06,088 --> 00:34:08,215 -Right. -Like, wait, can we personalize it? 645 00:34:08,297 --> 00:34:11,217 And that's what we've got to encourage police officers to do. 646 00:34:12,302 --> 00:34:15,556 Do you think domestic violence, then, is not taken as seriously 647 00:34:16,139 --> 00:34:22,103 because the culture is sort of trained to not believe women 648 00:34:22,187 --> 00:34:25,065 or to dismiss women's concerns? 649 00:34:25,148 --> 00:34:29,570 Because it does seem like if this were happening to men, 650 00:34:29,652 --> 00:34:32,781 there'd be a far greater outcry. 651 00:34:32,864 --> 00:34:34,283 I think that's a fair criticism. 652 00:34:34,366 --> 00:34:36,702 And until that culture is fixed 653 00:34:36,784 --> 00:34:38,579 we will remain broken. 654 00:34:39,830 --> 00:34:41,915 The International Association of Chiefs of Police, 655 00:34:41,998 --> 00:34:43,625 you're a part of that organization. 656 00:34:43,708 --> 00:34:46,545 Yes, and I was on their firearms committee. 657 00:34:46,628 --> 00:34:50,507 Only 25 of this large-- this organization. I had two terms. 658 00:34:50,591 --> 00:34:54,052 I wrote most of their materials about gun violence prevention. 659 00:34:54,136 --> 00:34:56,346 The firearms committee is in charge of? 660 00:34:56,429 --> 00:35:00,475 All firearms policy that IACP endorses. And I've been on it-- 661 00:35:00,559 --> 00:35:03,103 -I worked there for years. -Just out of curiosity, 662 00:35:03,187 --> 00:35:05,814 -how many women were on that? -One. 663 00:35:06,690 --> 00:35:07,983 How many people are on it? 664 00:35:08,066 --> 00:35:11,153 Twenty-five. One person of color. This is-- 665 00:35:11,236 --> 00:35:13,989 -One person of color and one woman? -Yes. 666 00:35:14,072 --> 00:35:17,659 Writing the policy for the IACP on firearms? 667 00:35:19,745 --> 00:35:21,079 That seems fair. 668 00:35:21,788 --> 00:35:28,128 Yeah. And so, IACP is largely now representing small-town police chiefs, 669 00:35:28,212 --> 00:35:30,297 rural chiefs, major-city chiefs. 670 00:35:30,380 --> 00:35:32,049 Has a very different look. 671 00:35:32,674 --> 00:35:35,260 -And, yes, this is shocking. -But it's clearly a constituency 672 00:35:35,344 --> 00:35:36,970 -that could make a difference. -Oh, yes. 673 00:35:37,054 --> 00:35:42,518 If they came out tomorrow as, "This is an important initiative 674 00:35:42,601 --> 00:35:46,563 that we're gonna put a good amount of resource and time to," 675 00:35:46,647 --> 00:35:49,399 that would be enormous. 676 00:35:53,278 --> 00:35:57,699 Why is a domestic violence situation not in and of itself 677 00:35:57,783 --> 00:36:02,704 -probable cause to remove firearms? -That's a perfect example 678 00:36:02,788 --> 00:36:05,123 where an officer goes in and takes that gun. 679 00:36:05,207 --> 00:36:07,793 This person says, "You just violated my Fourth Amendment rights. 680 00:36:07,876 --> 00:36:11,630 I have a Second Amendment right to that-- you know, to keep that firearm, 681 00:36:11,713 --> 00:36:15,384 and I have protections against unlawful searches and seizures." 682 00:36:15,467 --> 00:36:16,885 We had two people on the show. 683 00:36:16,969 --> 00:36:19,346 A woman named April Ross and a woman named Janet Paulsen. 684 00:36:19,429 --> 00:36:21,890 Both were survivors of domestic violence. 685 00:36:21,974 --> 00:36:24,226 Janet got a restraining order. 686 00:36:24,309 --> 00:36:27,187 They came to collect her husband's guns. 687 00:36:27,271 --> 00:36:30,566 There was one in the car. She said, "Can you please get that one as well?" 688 00:36:30,649 --> 00:36:33,527 They said, "We can't." And he shot her with that one. 689 00:36:34,695 --> 00:36:36,488 A lot of times, these orders are very specific. 690 00:36:36,572 --> 00:36:37,948 -They come from a judge. -Right. 691 00:36:38,031 --> 00:36:40,742 Particularly when it comes to Second Amendment rights. 692 00:36:40,826 --> 00:36:43,745 So they go in and an officer takes that gun out of the car, 693 00:36:43,829 --> 00:36:46,373 they're gonna end up in legal jeopardy. 694 00:36:46,456 --> 00:36:49,501 It's about a protecting them against a civil suit. 695 00:36:49,585 --> 00:36:52,713 So now, as a cop-- You know, Jon, what are they making? 696 00:36:52,796 --> 00:36:54,882 -You know? $60,000 a year… -Right. 697 00:36:54,965 --> 00:36:57,134 …and now you're gonna bankrupt this cop 698 00:36:57,217 --> 00:36:59,469 because they're trying to do the right thing to keep somebody safe? 699 00:36:59,553 --> 00:37:05,058 What that says is, their hands are tied about enforcing laws that are on the books 700 00:37:05,642 --> 00:37:09,229 because they fear a legal process against them. 701 00:37:09,313 --> 00:37:13,734 Does the will not exist to do it because of that legal question? 702 00:37:13,817 --> 00:37:15,402 And does that play a role? 703 00:37:15,485 --> 00:37:18,447 Well, I know at the executive level it doesn't, you know? 704 00:37:18,530 --> 00:37:20,199 At the line and staff level, I don't know. 705 00:37:20,282 --> 00:37:23,869 Do you still believe that it's possible to do this at a legislative level? 706 00:37:23,952 --> 00:37:25,829 We need a federal standard. 707 00:37:25,913 --> 00:37:28,373 We need them to come in and say, "We're not federalizing police, 708 00:37:28,457 --> 00:37:31,335 but we need a federal standard that people can train to, can understand, 709 00:37:31,418 --> 00:37:33,670 that's evidence-based, that makes sense." Right? 710 00:37:33,754 --> 00:37:35,839 But having those conversations in those offices with people-- 711 00:37:35,923 --> 00:37:38,717 When you look at 'em and say-- They're just not hearing me. 712 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,512 -You know? It's extremely frustrating. -Right. 713 00:37:41,595 --> 00:37:42,846 Where would you attack it? 714 00:37:42,930 --> 00:37:46,558 As someone who really knows it from being a police chief at a local level 715 00:37:46,642 --> 00:37:49,353 and also having a good overview of it. 716 00:37:49,436 --> 00:37:50,562 What would you do? 717 00:37:51,438 --> 00:37:54,191 The game changer for law enforcement has been 718 00:37:54,274 --> 00:37:56,235 those extreme risk protection orders. 719 00:37:56,318 --> 00:37:58,779 Does that differ from a temporary restraining order? 720 00:37:58,862 --> 00:37:59,988 A hundred percent. 721 00:38:00,072 --> 00:38:01,740 -Temporary restraining order, right? -Yeah. 722 00:38:01,823 --> 00:38:04,910 They're-- You have to really-- That's a high bar to get to. 723 00:38:04,993 --> 00:38:08,121 On an extreme risk protection order, it's not a high bar, 724 00:38:08,205 --> 00:38:11,834 because it's a temporary separation of you from your firearms. 725 00:38:11,917 --> 00:38:15,879 A woman can go in and say, "My husband has been polishing his gun 726 00:38:15,963 --> 00:38:18,549 -and I feel like I'm in jeopardy." -That's it. 727 00:38:18,632 --> 00:38:19,842 -"And I need this." -Perfect. 728 00:38:19,925 --> 00:38:22,010 -That's a great example. Exactly. -That would do it. 729 00:38:22,094 --> 00:38:24,513 Right now, there's only 20 states that have it, 730 00:38:24,596 --> 00:38:26,557 and the District of Columbia, right? 731 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,726 So we've still got, you know, another 30 to go. 732 00:38:29,810 --> 00:38:31,562 And then the judge, you know, will-- 733 00:38:31,645 --> 00:38:33,772 Would they be able to take the gun from the car too? 734 00:38:33,856 --> 00:38:35,983 Yeah, under extreme risk protection, they can take 'em all. 735 00:38:39,945 --> 00:38:42,614 I think part of the problem with this issue is 736 00:38:42,698 --> 00:38:45,993 yes, it impacts women, but what was illumining for me 737 00:38:46,076 --> 00:38:49,955 is that it disproportionately impacts Black and brown women, 738 00:38:50,038 --> 00:38:51,665 -indigenous women, and-- -Trans. 739 00:38:51,748 --> 00:38:54,793 Trans women. And I think that's also part of the problem 740 00:38:54,877 --> 00:38:56,503 that we need to actually talk about. 741 00:38:56,587 --> 00:38:59,089 -That we don't talk about. -Black women are twice as likely 742 00:38:59,173 --> 00:39:01,300 to be shot and killed by an intimate partner than a white woman. 743 00:39:01,383 --> 00:39:03,594 -Which is shocking to me. -And insane. 744 00:39:03,677 --> 00:39:06,555 That's the other end. It's like, do we not move on this issue 745 00:39:06,638 --> 00:39:08,599 because it's a bunch of dudes affecting it, 746 00:39:08,682 --> 00:39:12,019 or is it because it's mostly affecting Black and brown women? 747 00:39:12,102 --> 00:39:14,313 -Yeah. -Probably a combination of both. 748 00:39:14,396 --> 00:39:16,565 Probably a hot combo with both. 749 00:39:21,862 --> 00:39:26,116 Thank you! Thank you so much for watching the program 750 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,619 while, I'm assuming, scrolling Twitter on your phone. 751 00:39:28,702 --> 00:39:32,122 I cannot wait to see all 2,000 comments 752 00:39:32,206 --> 00:39:34,333 agreeing with everything we've said here tonight. 753 00:39:34,416 --> 00:39:37,503 And, for even more, we've got a podcast. 754 00:39:37,586 --> 00:39:39,046 Listen and sing along. 755 00:39:39,129 --> 00:39:41,882 You can learn more about how to join the fight against domestic violence. 756 00:39:41,965 --> 00:39:48,180 Subscribe to our newsletter at theproblem.com/cheesedip. 757 00:39:48,263 --> 00:39:50,224 And check out these organizations. 758 00:39:50,933 --> 00:39:54,561 We shall see you… next time. 759 00:39:54,645 --> 00:39:56,271 Have a good night. Bye. 760 00:39:59,691 --> 00:40:03,946 We are going to go. 761 00:40:04,863 --> 00:40:07,991 -I'm Niecy Nash. -And I'm Thandiwe Newton. 762 00:40:08,075 --> 00:40:10,452 And we're the stars of a new movie, 763 00:40:10,536 --> 00:40:13,497 The Real Thelma and Louise. 764 00:40:13,580 --> 00:40:18,252 The premise of this reboot is to make a real-life version of the classic. 765 00:40:18,335 --> 00:40:23,006 So first off, Thelma and Louise are being played by two Black women. 766 00:40:23,090 --> 00:40:24,466 Our characters go on the run 767 00:40:24,550 --> 00:40:28,762 after Louise shoots Thelma's abusive husband in self-defense. 768 00:40:28,846 --> 00:40:31,598 Thelma and Louise make it all the way… 769 00:40:32,474 --> 00:40:35,227 to the driveway before they are arrested. 770 00:40:35,310 --> 00:40:36,645 It's a pretty short movie. 771 00:40:37,187 --> 00:40:38,814 But, you know, fun romp. 772 00:40:42,401 --> 00:40:44,361 We do kiss once. 773 00:40:44,444 --> 00:40:45,445 Iconic. 774 00:40:45,529 --> 00:40:50,242 -Catch The Real Thelma and Louise. -The original girls' trip. 775 00:40:50,325 --> 00:40:54,913 Take your white boyfriend and enjoy the silence on the ride home.