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Avner, How are you?

4
00:01:45,939 --> 00:01:47,774
Well, thanks, Colonel.
Yourself?

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00:01:47,858 --> 00:01:48,859
Good. Good.

6
00:01:49,443 --> 00:01:50,736
Would you like
some coffee,

7
00:01:50,819 --> 00:01:52,362
-something to eat?
-No, thank you.

8
00:01:52,446 --> 00:01:54,740
My wife makes sure
I'm well-fed in the morning.

9
00:01:54,823 --> 00:01:56,325
And how is Vera?

10
00:01:56,408 --> 00:01:58,577
Uh, enjoying better health,
thankfully.

11
00:01:58,660 --> 00:01:59,661
Glad to hear.

12
00:02:00,370 --> 00:02:01,330
So...

13
00:02:02,706 --> 00:02:04,958
Don't keep me in suspense.
What's all the fuss?

14
00:02:05,876 --> 00:02:06,877
Eichmann.

15
00:02:08,712 --> 00:02:10,047
Eichmann?

16
00:02:10,130 --> 00:02:11,506
The architect
of the Final Solution?

17
00:02:12,299 --> 00:02:14,051
So the press says.

18
00:02:14,134 --> 00:02:16,345
They say it,
but you've got to prove it.

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00:02:16,970 --> 00:02:18,180
Prove it?

20
00:02:18,263 --> 00:02:19,556
Yes.

21
00:02:19,640 --> 00:02:21,099
The government
has entrusted the police

22
00:02:21,183 --> 00:02:23,226
with the Eichmann
investigation.

23
00:02:23,852 --> 00:02:26,688
I'm putting together a team,
a-- a group of officers,

24
00:02:26,772 --> 00:02:29,316
to-- to build a case
aga-- against Eichmann.

25
00:02:29,399 --> 00:02:31,318
They will gather together
whatever testimonies,

26
00:02:31,401 --> 00:02:34,946
depositions, documents,
any evidence you need.

27
00:02:35,572 --> 00:02:36,948
Build a case?

28
00:02:37,032 --> 00:02:38,492
Surely there's
a mountain of evidence

29
00:02:38,575 --> 00:02:40,077
against this man
for a conviction.

30
00:02:40,744 --> 00:02:43,288
He was hiding
like a mouse in Buenos Aires.

31
00:02:44,206 --> 00:02:47,584
Uh-- He even admitted
to Mossad that he was, in fact,

32
00:02:47,668 --> 00:02:48,835
Adolf Eichmann.

33
00:02:49,419 --> 00:02:50,587
So, what more
do you need?

34
00:02:51,129 --> 00:02:53,674
We need specifics.
Details.

35
00:02:53,757 --> 00:02:56,593
We need to know
what part he played in the SS

36
00:02:56,677 --> 00:02:59,554
and what hand he had
in the Holocaust of our people.

37
00:03:01,431 --> 00:03:02,474
What do you need
from me?

38
00:03:04,601 --> 00:03:06,353
You've got
to interrogate him.

39
00:03:06,436 --> 00:03:08,480
You must make him
confess his crimes.

40
00:03:08,563 --> 00:03:11,024
General Salinger
signed off on you.

41
00:03:11,108 --> 00:03:12,901
You suggested me
to Salinger?

42
00:03:12,984 --> 00:03:15,362
I-- No.
I wouldn't do that to a friend.

43
00:03:15,445 --> 00:03:16,530
He selected you.

44
00:03:17,072 --> 00:03:19,700
He believes you are
the best man for the job.

45
00:03:19,783 --> 00:03:21,118
You speak German

46
00:03:21,201 --> 00:03:22,494
and you're one
of the most competent

47
00:03:22,577 --> 00:03:25,330
criminal investigators
in Israel.

48
00:03:25,872 --> 00:03:27,582
It won't be
an easy task, for sure.

49
00:03:27,666 --> 00:03:30,168
It'll probably take, uh,
longer than three months.

50
00:03:30,252 --> 00:03:32,504
Uh, and you
must be discreet.

51
00:03:32,587 --> 00:03:35,298
You mustn't tell
your family, your friends,

52
00:03:35,382 --> 00:03:36,508
even your wife.

53
00:03:37,217 --> 00:03:38,635
You want me
to spend three months

54
00:03:38,719 --> 00:03:41,096
in a room
with Adolf Eichmann?

55
00:03:41,972 --> 00:03:44,391
My own personal
concentration camp.

56
00:03:45,183 --> 00:03:46,643
And for what?
What's the point?

57
00:03:47,269 --> 00:03:50,939
Why stir up all these years
of pain and grief?

58
00:03:52,482 --> 00:03:54,484
It won't bring
the murdered millions back.

59
00:03:55,902 --> 00:03:57,070
He needs
a fair trial.

60
00:03:57,612 --> 00:03:59,114
And someone's
got to do it.

61
00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:48,580
I am Captain Less.

62
00:04:49,122 --> 00:04:52,667
I am told that you
are willing-- eager in fact--

63
00:04:53,418 --> 00:04:56,588
To tell of your role
in the Third Reich.

64
00:04:58,381 --> 00:04:59,424
Very much so.

65
00:05:00,383 --> 00:05:04,179
You are fully aware that
you are not being coerced,

66
00:05:05,263 --> 00:05:08,183
that you testify
of your own free will.

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00:05:09,184 --> 00:05:13,230
And that the testimony can be
used as evidence in court.

68
00:05:14,105 --> 00:05:15,148
Yes. Yes.

69
00:05:16,191 --> 00:05:18,485
I notice
you're not wearing your badge.

70
00:05:19,236 --> 00:05:20,737
We're trying
to be discreet.

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00:05:21,488 --> 00:05:24,449
That's one of the reasons
we've put you up in this motel.

72
00:05:25,700 --> 00:05:27,452
By the way,
how do you find it?

73
00:05:28,203 --> 00:05:31,706
There's a bed,
a bathroom, shower, kitchen.

74
00:05:32,874 --> 00:05:34,835
There's no television,
but I can't complain.

75
00:05:36,336 --> 00:05:39,840
Might I ask why all
this cloak and dagger stuff?

76
00:05:39,923 --> 00:05:41,424
It's for
your own safety.

77
00:05:41,967 --> 00:05:43,260
There are lots
of people out there

78
00:05:43,343 --> 00:05:45,387
who would just
like us to hang you

79
00:05:45,470 --> 00:05:46,596
and be done with it.

80
00:05:47,389 --> 00:05:49,140
Well, I appreciate
your frankness.

81
00:05:50,058 --> 00:05:52,602
I don't think
any successful interrogation

82
00:05:52,686 --> 00:05:55,689
can be conducted without
a certain level of trust.

83
00:05:57,983 --> 00:06:00,235
I understand
that you and I are colleagues.

84
00:06:00,318 --> 00:06:02,070
I was once
a policeman, myself.

85
00:06:02,153 --> 00:06:03,822
You were never
a policeman.

86
00:06:04,489 --> 00:06:05,866
You were in the SS.

87
00:06:05,949 --> 00:06:06,908
Is that so?

88
00:06:08,118 --> 00:06:09,661
Well, I'm not afraid
of the police.

89
00:06:09,744 --> 00:06:10,745
I know them.

90
00:06:11,746 --> 00:06:13,790
The courts
are something else, however.

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00:06:15,166 --> 00:06:17,586
I've never been
on trial before.

92
00:06:17,669 --> 00:06:19,921
Please. Sit down.

93
00:06:39,983 --> 00:06:41,693
Before we start, Captain,

94
00:06:41,776 --> 00:06:45,572
I would just like to say
that my role in what happened

95
00:06:45,655 --> 00:06:50,327
between 1933 and 1945
was a passive one.

96
00:06:51,244 --> 00:06:52,996
The best way
to put it would be to say

97
00:06:53,079 --> 00:06:56,708
that I was a small cog
in the gigantic machine

98
00:06:56,791 --> 00:06:58,460
that was
the Third Reich.

99
00:06:59,878 --> 00:07:02,172
Let's begin
with your curriculum vitae.

100
00:07:04,299 --> 00:07:08,887
Well, I was born
in March 19th, in 1906,

101
00:07:09,596 --> 00:07:11,723
at Solingen
in the Rhineland.

102
00:07:11,806 --> 00:07:14,100
My father
was a bookkeeper

103
00:07:14,184 --> 00:07:16,269
for the Solingen Light
and Power company.

104
00:07:17,062 --> 00:07:18,647
That was the name,
more or less.

105
00:07:19,397 --> 00:07:24,361
In 1913, he was transferred to
the Linz Power and Light Company

106
00:07:24,444 --> 00:07:26,446
in Linz
on the Danube.

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00:07:27,405 --> 00:07:30,325
Probably in connection
with the loan

108
00:07:30,408 --> 00:07:33,495
that the AEG
had with an Austrian company

109
00:07:33,578 --> 00:07:37,499
that he was the commercial
director of until 1924.

110
00:07:38,416 --> 00:07:42,420
In 1914, he moved
his family to Austria.

111
00:07:43,296 --> 00:07:45,924
So, from 1914 on,

112
00:07:46,007 --> 00:07:49,928
I lived in Linz
on the Danube in Upper Austria

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00:07:50,011 --> 00:07:52,889
with my parents,
my brothers and sisters.

114
00:07:53,974 --> 00:07:55,433
Suppose we go
back a little.

115
00:07:56,101 --> 00:07:57,686
What was
your father's name?

116
00:07:57,769 --> 00:08:01,147
My father's name
was Adolf Karl Eichmann.

117
00:08:02,273 --> 00:08:04,484
Do you have any brothers
or sisters, Captain?

118
00:08:05,026 --> 00:08:06,027
What?

119
00:08:06,903 --> 00:08:08,405
Are your parents
still alive?

120
00:08:08,947 --> 00:08:11,449
I feel like I'm telling you
all about myself.

121
00:08:11,533 --> 00:08:13,034
But I know
nothing about you.

122
00:08:13,994 --> 00:08:15,161
Perhaps
I'll tell you later.

123
00:08:15,954 --> 00:08:16,997
Oh, I hope so.

124
00:08:18,164 --> 00:08:22,335
<i>Well, my mother's name was Maria
Eichmann, nee Schefferling.</i>

125
00:08:22,961 --> 00:08:26,297
But aside
from economic considerations,

126
00:08:26,381 --> 00:08:29,217
I had other reasons
for wanting to get away,

127
00:08:29,300 --> 00:08:31,428
to leave Austria
and go to Germany.

128
00:08:32,387 --> 00:08:35,015
Even in my school days,
we had political groups--

129
00:08:35,098 --> 00:08:37,017
All perfectly harmless,
of course.

130
00:08:37,767 --> 00:08:39,644
Nationalists,
socialists, monarchists.

131
00:08:40,437 --> 00:08:42,897
The kind of things
youngsters went in for

132
00:08:42,981 --> 00:08:44,733
without thinking
about it very much.

133
00:08:45,358 --> 00:08:49,362
For instance, you'd join the
monarchists or the nationalists

134
00:08:49,446 --> 00:08:52,323
just because you had a good
friend in one of those groups.

135
00:08:53,366 --> 00:08:55,869
That was the first
political talk I had heard.

136
00:08:56,619 --> 00:08:59,581
At home, the subject
was never mentioned.

137
00:08:59,664 --> 00:09:02,459
My father
had no interest in politics.

138
00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:05,712
I had
an old friend in Linz.

139
00:09:05,795 --> 00:09:08,048
His name was
Friedrich von Schmidt,

140
00:09:08,715 --> 00:09:10,884
son of Field Marshal
von Schmidt,

141
00:09:10,967 --> 00:09:13,011
whom I never
met because he died

142
00:09:13,094 --> 00:09:14,929
before I made friends
with his son.

143
00:09:16,056 --> 00:09:18,558
The family was enormously
proud of the father

144
00:09:18,641 --> 00:09:23,271
because he'd risen from private
to field marshal lieutenant

145
00:09:23,354 --> 00:09:25,940
in the days
of Emperor Franz Joseph.

146
00:09:26,566 --> 00:09:29,611
So, he must have been
a very brave, fine,

147
00:09:29,694 --> 00:09:32,781
upstanding soldier,
a-- and a fine, upstanding man.

148
00:09:34,115 --> 00:09:37,285
My friend's mother
had been a countess so-and-so,

149
00:09:37,368 --> 00:09:39,537
a very distinguished family.

150
00:09:40,580 --> 00:09:42,415
They were still living
with the old ideas.

151
00:09:42,499 --> 00:09:45,752
But when my friend, Friedrich,
would forget his fine manners,

152
00:09:45,835 --> 00:09:47,712
then he was
just a good fellow.

153
00:09:48,505 --> 00:09:51,299
Naturally, he associated
mostly with military men.

154
00:09:51,966 --> 00:09:53,843
And one day,
he persuaded me

155
00:09:53,927 --> 00:09:56,888
to join the Young
Veterans Association,

156
00:09:56,971 --> 00:10:00,600
the youth section of the German
Austrian Veterans Association.

157
00:10:01,351 --> 00:10:05,188
"Public need before public
greed," was its slogan.

158
00:10:05,897 --> 00:10:09,692
It was the only organization
that dared march the streets.

159
00:10:10,568 --> 00:10:12,320
Most of the members
were monarchists,

160
00:10:12,403 --> 00:10:14,572
some Christian-orientated,

161
00:10:14,656 --> 00:10:17,659
and only a vanishing
minority were nationalists.

162
00:10:18,576 --> 00:10:21,329
National socialism
was still unheard of.

163
00:10:22,330 --> 00:10:25,083
So, most of you
were loyal to Austria?

164
00:10:26,543 --> 00:10:29,379
Around 1931,
there was friction

165
00:10:29,462 --> 00:10:31,881
between the nationalists
and the monarchists.

166
00:10:33,675 --> 00:10:35,760
You don't have
any cigarettes, do you, Captain?

167
00:10:36,386 --> 00:10:39,305
The ones the guards give me
simply aren't good enough.

168
00:10:40,140 --> 00:10:41,683
You can't
smoke in here.

169
00:10:42,976 --> 00:10:45,478
But if you like,
I'll request

170
00:10:45,562 --> 00:10:47,981
your cigarette
ration to be increased.

171
00:10:48,064 --> 00:10:49,065
Ah, thank you.

172
00:10:49,858 --> 00:10:52,360
Anyway,
around that time,

173
00:10:52,443 --> 00:10:54,612
the SA were marching
through the streets.

174
00:10:55,572 --> 00:10:57,824
The SS were trying
to recruit members

175
00:10:57,907 --> 00:11:00,285
of the Young
Veterans Association.

176
00:11:01,411 --> 00:11:03,580
One day, the Nazi Party,

177
00:11:03,663 --> 00:11:07,041
or NSDAP,
as they called themselves,

178
00:11:08,084 --> 00:11:09,544
held a mass meeting

179
00:11:09,627 --> 00:11:12,755
in a large
Bavarian-style beer hall.

180
00:11:14,299 --> 00:11:17,719
My friend,
Ernst Kaltenbrunner,

181
00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:19,929
came straight up to me.

182
00:11:20,638 --> 00:11:23,558
His father
was a lawyer in Linz.

183
00:11:23,641 --> 00:11:27,854
His father and my father had
business dealings for decades.

184
00:11:27,937 --> 00:11:29,606
Ernst spoke
to me straight.

185
00:11:30,565 --> 00:11:32,734
He said,
"You will join us."

186
00:11:34,194 --> 00:11:35,904
I said, "All right."

187
00:11:36,529 --> 00:11:38,740
So, I just
sort of fell into it.

188
00:11:39,616 --> 00:11:40,658
Fell into it?

189
00:11:40,742 --> 00:11:42,076
I joined the SS.

190
00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:43,161
Just like that?

191
00:11:44,454 --> 00:11:47,081
Well, that's the way it was
done in those days.

192
00:11:47,165 --> 00:11:48,166
No fuss.

193
00:11:55,673 --> 00:11:56,925
I won't be home
for dinner.

194
00:11:58,885 --> 00:12:00,929
It's the Colonel.
He's got me on something big.

195
00:12:02,805 --> 00:12:04,057
No,
I can't talk about it.

196
00:12:07,477 --> 00:12:08,728
All right.
I love you, too.

197
00:12:12,273 --> 00:12:13,566
Kiss the kids
good night for me.

198
00:12:20,907 --> 00:12:24,285
We've touched on the Final
Solution of the Jewish Question.

199
00:12:24,369 --> 00:12:26,412
Would you like
to speak about that now or...

200
00:12:27,538 --> 00:12:29,457
about the war
with Russia, first?

201
00:12:30,041 --> 00:12:31,251
The Final Solution.

202
00:12:33,086 --> 00:12:34,629
Yes, well,
it's mixed up

203
00:12:34,712 --> 00:12:36,256
with something that happened

204
00:12:36,923 --> 00:12:39,676
after the start
of the German-Russian war.

205
00:12:40,635 --> 00:12:44,847
At the time, Reich Marshal
Goering issued a document

206
00:12:44,931 --> 00:12:47,267
conferring a special
title on the chief

207
00:12:47,350 --> 00:12:50,561
of the Reich main
security office, Heydrich.

208
00:12:51,437 --> 00:12:53,648
The Reich main
security officer's duties

209
00:12:53,731 --> 00:12:56,943
were to eliminate
all enemies of the Reich,

210
00:12:57,026 --> 00:12:59,362
both domestic and abroad.

211
00:13:00,238 --> 00:13:04,158
I'm trying to remember
the wording of the title.

212
00:13:04,242 --> 00:13:05,243
Was it...

213
00:13:06,661 --> 00:13:09,372
Depu--
Deputy Charge with the...

214
00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:12,500
Final Solution?

215
00:13:12,583 --> 00:13:16,838
Or with the solution
of the Jewish problem?

216
00:13:20,466 --> 00:13:22,635
Anyway, the war
with the Soviet Union

217
00:13:22,719 --> 00:13:25,680
began in 1941,
I believe.

218
00:13:25,763 --> 00:13:29,517
And I believe
it was two or three months later

219
00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:31,102
that Heydrich
sent for me.

220
00:13:31,686 --> 00:13:33,896
He began
with a little speech.

221
00:13:35,398 --> 00:13:37,650
And then
he said to me,

222
00:13:37,734 --> 00:13:41,696
"The Fuhrer has ordered
physical extermination."

223
00:13:42,655 --> 00:13:45,241
These were
his exact words.

224
00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,912
And as though wanting
to test their effect on me...

225
00:13:51,789 --> 00:13:56,252
he made a long pause,
which was not at all his way.

226
00:13:57,128 --> 00:13:58,338
I can still
remember that.

227
00:13:59,505 --> 00:14:03,551
Initially, I didn't grasp
the imc-- implications,

228
00:14:04,177 --> 00:14:07,680
because he chose
his words so carefully.

229
00:14:07,764 --> 00:14:09,682
But then I understood.

230
00:14:10,725 --> 00:14:12,185
I didn't say anything.

231
00:14:12,268 --> 00:14:13,686
I mean, what could I say?

232
00:14:14,437 --> 00:14:16,689
Because I'd never
thought of such a thing,

233
00:14:16,773 --> 00:14:19,150
such a violent solution.

234
00:14:19,734 --> 00:14:21,778
And then
he said to me, "Eichmann...

235
00:14:23,029 --> 00:14:26,157
go and see
Globocnik in Lublin."

236
00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:27,241
Who?

237
00:14:28,159 --> 00:14:31,120
He-- he was head
of the SS and the police

238
00:14:31,204 --> 00:14:33,706
in the Lublin
district in Poland.

239
00:14:33,790 --> 00:14:35,792
As ordered,
I went to Lublin,

240
00:14:35,875 --> 00:14:39,045
located the headquarters
of the SS and police,

241
00:14:39,128 --> 00:14:42,256
and I told Globocnik
that Heydrich had sent me

242
00:14:42,340 --> 00:14:44,717
because the Fuhrer
had ordered

243
00:14:44,801 --> 00:14:47,303
the physical extermination
of the Jews.

244
00:14:48,679 --> 00:14:52,600
Globocnik sent me
with one of his staff members.

245
00:14:53,267 --> 00:14:56,020
I don't remember
the place was called--

246
00:14:56,104 --> 00:14:57,230
I get them mixed up.

247
00:14:58,106 --> 00:15:00,525
I couldn't say
if it was Treblinka

248
00:15:00,608 --> 00:15:02,026
or somewhere else.

249
00:15:04,487 --> 00:15:07,824
There were patches
of woods, uh, sort of.

250
00:15:07,907 --> 00:15:10,576
And the road passed
through a Polish highway.

251
00:15:11,244 --> 00:15:14,622
On the right side of the road,
there was an ordinary house

252
00:15:14,705 --> 00:15:16,332
where the workers lived.

253
00:15:17,375 --> 00:15:19,919
A captain of the regular
police welcomed us.

254
00:15:20,878 --> 00:15:22,630
A few workmen
were still there.

255
00:15:24,924 --> 00:15:27,927
The captain
had taken off his jacket

256
00:15:28,010 --> 00:15:31,055
and rolled up his sleeves,
which surprised me.

257
00:15:31,139 --> 00:15:35,101
Somehow he seemed
to be joining in with the work.

258
00:15:36,227 --> 00:15:39,272
They were building
little wooden shacks,

259
00:15:39,355 --> 00:15:41,315
two or maybe
three of them.

260
00:15:42,942 --> 00:15:46,112
They looked like two-
or three-room cottages.

261
00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:49,699
My escort told
the police captain

262
00:15:49,782 --> 00:15:51,576
to explain
the installation.

263
00:15:53,202 --> 00:15:56,372
He had a vulgar,
uncultivated voice.

264
00:15:56,456 --> 00:15:57,874
Maybe-- maybe he drank.

265
00:15:59,292 --> 00:16:03,045
He told me how he had
made everything airtight.

266
00:16:04,088 --> 00:16:05,798
It seemed
they were going to hook up

267
00:16:05,882 --> 00:16:07,508
a Russian submarine engine

268
00:16:07,592 --> 00:16:10,511
and pipe the exhaust
into the houses

269
00:16:10,595 --> 00:16:13,014
and the Jews inside
would be poisoned.

270
00:16:13,848 --> 00:16:15,475
I-- I was horrified!

271
00:16:16,642 --> 00:16:18,853
My nerves
aren't strong enough.

272
00:16:18,936 --> 00:16:20,521
I can't listen
to such--

273
00:16:21,189 --> 00:16:23,608
Such things
without them affecting me.

274
00:16:25,234 --> 00:16:28,988
Even today, if I see
someone with a large cut,

275
00:16:29,822 --> 00:16:31,282
I have to look away.

276
00:16:31,365 --> 00:16:33,075
I could never
have been a doctor.

277
00:16:35,578 --> 00:16:38,247
I still remember
how I visualized the scene

278
00:16:38,331 --> 00:16:39,999
and began to tremble,

279
00:16:40,082 --> 00:16:42,293
a-- as if I'd been
through some

280
00:16:43,044 --> 00:16:44,295
terrible experience,

281
00:16:45,004 --> 00:16:46,589
the kind of thing
that makes you...

282
00:16:47,965 --> 00:16:48,966
shake.

283
00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:54,472
Then I received orders
to go to Lichmenstadt

284
00:16:55,598 --> 00:16:58,476
and report back
what was going on there.

285
00:16:58,559 --> 00:17:03,231
So, I went to the Gestapo
headquarters in Lichmenstadt

286
00:17:03,314 --> 00:17:07,485
and there I was told that
it was a special team put in,

287
00:17:07,568 --> 00:17:09,403
bought by
the Reich Fuhrer,

288
00:17:10,071 --> 00:17:11,072
Himmler.

289
00:17:12,907 --> 00:17:14,867
I saw a large room
with Jews in it.

290
00:17:16,827 --> 00:17:19,872
They made them take off
all their clothes.

291
00:17:21,916 --> 00:17:24,544
Then a sealed
truck drove up

292
00:17:24,627 --> 00:17:26,879
and the naked
Jews got in.

293
00:17:28,172 --> 00:17:30,633
The door was closed
and the truck drove away.

294
00:17:31,300 --> 00:17:33,010
How many people
did this truck hold?

295
00:17:33,803 --> 00:17:35,429
I-- I don't know exactly.

296
00:17:35,513 --> 00:17:38,015
The whole time I was there,
I never looked inside.

297
00:17:38,099 --> 00:17:39,517
I couldn't. Couldn't!

298
00:17:40,893 --> 00:17:43,604
What I had seen
and heard was enough.

299
00:17:43,688 --> 00:17:44,689
The screaming.

300
00:17:46,023 --> 00:17:47,650
I was much too shaken.

301
00:17:48,442 --> 00:17:51,320
I drove after that truck
and what I saw...

302
00:17:52,863 --> 00:17:55,241
what-- was
the most horrific thing

303
00:17:55,324 --> 00:17:58,077
I had ever seen
in my life.

304
00:18:00,371 --> 00:18:04,917
It drove up
to a-- a rather long trench.

305
00:18:05,501 --> 00:18:07,211
The back doors were open

306
00:18:07,295 --> 00:18:10,298
and corpses
were just thrown out.

307
00:18:11,424 --> 00:18:15,261
The-- Their limbs were supple
as if they were being alive.

308
00:18:17,013 --> 00:18:19,098
Just thrown in!

309
00:18:19,849 --> 00:18:21,350
I can still
see someone

310
00:18:21,434 --> 00:18:23,477
with a pair of pliers
pulling out their teeth.

311
00:18:26,355 --> 00:18:28,899
And then I got
into my car and drove off.

312
00:18:28,983 --> 00:18:31,235
I didn't say
another word to my driver.

313
00:18:31,944 --> 00:18:33,946
I'd had enough.
I was through.

314
00:18:34,989 --> 00:18:39,410
In Berlin, I reported
to Gruppenfuhrer Muller.

315
00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:41,454
Not Heydrich?

316
00:18:41,537 --> 00:18:43,331
I was
working for Heydrich,

317
00:18:43,414 --> 00:18:46,459
but Muller
was my direct superior.

318
00:18:46,542 --> 00:18:50,338
I told him the same
as what I have told you now.

319
00:18:50,421 --> 00:18:52,298
It's terrible!
I can't! It's-- it's--

320
00:18:53,257 --> 00:18:55,760
"I can't do it!"
I told him.

321
00:18:55,843 --> 00:18:57,261
What did Muller say?

322
00:18:57,345 --> 00:19:00,014
Muller never said anything.
Never.

323
00:19:01,515 --> 00:19:04,393
Not about these things
or anything else.

324
00:19:05,019 --> 00:19:08,189
He always
was very unemotional

325
00:19:08,272 --> 00:19:11,609
and said only
what was strictly necessary.

326
00:19:12,818 --> 00:19:16,197
He would have-- either say
yes or he would say no.

327
00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:18,199
And if he
didn't say yes or no,

328
00:19:18,282 --> 00:19:19,325
then he would say,

329
00:19:19,408 --> 00:19:20,868
"Eichmann, my friend,

330
00:19:20,951 --> 00:19:23,829
that's neither yes or no."

331
00:19:25,665 --> 00:19:28,125
Did you report
on this in writing?

332
00:19:28,209 --> 00:19:29,710
No,
I couldn't do that.

333
00:19:29,794 --> 00:19:32,588
I wa-- I was expressly
forbidden by Heydrich.

334
00:19:33,339 --> 00:19:36,634
Muller especially wanted
to know how long it takes.

335
00:19:36,717 --> 00:19:39,387
I wasn't able to tell him that.
I couldn't hear.

336
00:19:40,513 --> 00:19:42,431
I should have gone out
there a second time,

337
00:19:42,515 --> 00:19:44,767
but naturally,
I didn't volunteer.

338
00:19:46,894 --> 00:19:50,398
Did you see Jews being gassed
by submarine engines,

339
00:19:50,481 --> 00:19:52,316
by Globocnik's outfit?

340
00:19:53,234 --> 00:19:54,944
No,
I never saw that.

341
00:19:56,570 --> 00:19:58,489
How many of these places
were your sent to?

342
00:19:59,949 --> 00:20:03,411
Let me think.
The ones I've already mentioned.

343
00:20:03,494 --> 00:20:04,912
And Auschwitz.

344
00:20:05,621 --> 00:20:06,664
Minsk.

345
00:20:07,498 --> 00:20:08,499
Treblinka.

346
00:20:10,501 --> 00:20:12,086
That was all, I believe.

347
00:20:12,712 --> 00:20:14,714
Oh, yes. And Lemberg.

348
00:20:15,756 --> 00:20:18,384
Were these just
information-gathering missions

349
00:20:18,467 --> 00:20:20,469
or did you have
some special assignment?

350
00:20:21,595 --> 00:20:23,848
No, no assignment.
I had no...

351
00:20:24,765 --> 00:20:26,267
special orders
to give or anything.

352
00:20:26,350 --> 00:20:28,853
No instructions
about who to gas

353
00:20:28,936 --> 00:20:31,397
or whether anyone
was to be gassed,

354
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,525
whether the gassing
could or should be stopped,

355
00:20:34,608 --> 00:20:36,569
or started or intensified.

356
00:20:37,111 --> 00:20:39,905
I never had anything to do
with all of that, Captain.

357
00:20:40,698 --> 00:20:42,575
And if the newspapers
say I did,

358
00:20:42,658 --> 00:20:44,618
then I tell you,
they are lies.

359
00:20:44,702 --> 00:20:45,995
I'm telling you
the truth!

360
00:20:46,078 --> 00:20:47,747
What were
your reports like

361
00:20:47,830 --> 00:20:49,999
about the extermination
camps to Muller?

362
00:20:50,082 --> 00:20:51,417
Muller said to me.

363
00:20:51,500 --> 00:20:53,836
"In Minsk,
the Jews are being shot.

364
00:20:53,919 --> 00:20:55,212
I'd like
a report on that."

365
00:20:55,838 --> 00:20:57,631
So, I went to Minsk...

366
00:20:58,924 --> 00:21:00,926
and asked
for the commanding officer.

367
00:21:01,510 --> 00:21:02,928
He wasn't there.

368
00:21:03,012 --> 00:21:05,431
So, I spoke
to someone else and told him

369
00:21:05,514 --> 00:21:07,892
I had orders
to see what was going on.

370
00:21:08,809 --> 00:21:10,478
I spent
the night in that town

371
00:21:10,561 --> 00:21:13,481
and the next day
I went to the place.

372
00:21:13,564 --> 00:21:15,483
But I got
there too late.

373
00:21:16,317 --> 00:21:18,194
The work for that morning
was already done--

374
00:21:18,277 --> 00:21:19,779
Almost done.

375
00:21:20,613 --> 00:21:22,114
And I was
very glad for that.

376
00:21:24,492 --> 00:21:27,912
When I got there,
I was just in time to see

377
00:21:27,995 --> 00:21:32,625
young riflemen with the Death's
Head collar patch

378
00:21:33,459 --> 00:21:35,544
shooting into a pit.

379
00:21:37,087 --> 00:21:39,131
I can still see

380
00:21:40,007 --> 00:21:42,635
a woman with her arms
behind her back

381
00:21:42,718 --> 00:21:44,804
and her knees crumpled.

382
00:21:47,056 --> 00:21:48,140
And then I cleared out.

383
00:21:50,726 --> 00:21:51,852
The pit
was full of corpses?

384
00:21:51,936 --> 00:21:54,063
It was full,
it was full!

385
00:21:54,146 --> 00:21:58,484
I went to my car, I got in
and I drove back to Lemberg.

386
00:21:58,567 --> 00:22:02,029
I told the SS officer there,
I said to him,

387
00:22:02,112 --> 00:22:04,532
"It's horrible
what they're doing there.

388
00:22:05,241 --> 00:22:09,453
They're tr-- training men
to be sadists!

389
00:22:12,748 --> 00:22:17,044
How can they stand there,
firing on women and children?

390
00:22:17,127 --> 00:22:18,420
How is it possible?

391
00:22:19,421 --> 00:22:23,175
These men will either
go mad or become sadists."

392
00:22:25,135 --> 00:22:26,428
He said to me,

393
00:22:26,512 --> 00:22:28,514
"They're doing
the same thing here.

394
00:22:28,597 --> 00:22:29,598
You want to see?"

395
00:22:32,184 --> 00:22:33,894
I told him
I didn't, but-- but...

396
00:22:35,604 --> 00:22:37,982
but we were driving
past there anyway.

397
00:22:38,566 --> 00:22:39,692
There had been
a pit there.

398
00:22:39,775 --> 00:22:41,110
It was
already filled in

399
00:22:41,193 --> 00:22:43,821
and the blood
was gushing out of it.

400
00:22:45,155 --> 00:22:46,156
How shall I say?

401
00:22:46,949 --> 00:22:48,075
Like a geyser.

402
00:22:49,827 --> 00:22:51,620
I'd never seen
anything like it.

403
00:22:51,704 --> 00:22:52,997
I'd had enough
of that mission.

404
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:54,373
I went back to Berlin,

405
00:22:54,456 --> 00:22:56,166
reported what
I'd seen to Muller.

406
00:22:56,250 --> 00:22:57,751
I said to him,

407
00:22:57,835 --> 00:23:01,505
"This is no solution
to the Jewish question.

408
00:23:02,506 --> 00:23:06,427
And besides, we're training
our young men to be sadists.

409
00:23:07,219 --> 00:23:10,639
We shouldn't be surprised if
the-- the men turn out to be...

410
00:23:12,016 --> 00:23:13,851
criminals, all criminals."

411
00:23:15,853 --> 00:23:17,855
I still remember
Muller looking at me

412
00:23:17,938 --> 00:23:19,106
with an expression
that said,

413
00:23:19,189 --> 00:23:20,232
"Eichmann.

414
00:23:21,025 --> 00:23:21,984
You're right.

415
00:23:22,735 --> 00:23:24,069
That's no solution."

416
00:23:24,153 --> 00:23:26,113
But he
didn't say anything.

417
00:23:26,196 --> 00:23:28,490
What could
he do about it?

418
00:23:29,241 --> 00:23:30,993
Not a thing.
Not a thing.

419
00:23:33,037 --> 00:23:36,081
And who gave
the orders for such actions?

420
00:23:36,165 --> 00:23:37,917
The orders. The orders.

421
00:23:38,792 --> 00:23:40,628
Obviously,
the orders must have come

422
00:23:40,711 --> 00:23:42,963
from the head
of the security police

423
00:23:43,047 --> 00:23:44,840
and the SD, Heydrich.

424
00:23:45,799 --> 00:23:47,593
And he would have
been given the orders

425
00:23:47,676 --> 00:23:49,929
from Reichsfuhrer Himmler.

426
00:23:50,012 --> 00:23:51,180
What about the Fuhrer?

427
00:23:52,139 --> 00:23:53,140
Sorry?

428
00:23:54,683 --> 00:23:57,394
Did Hitler
not give the order to him?

429
00:24:00,564 --> 00:24:03,067
Yes.
Well, I don't know.

430
00:24:03,150 --> 00:24:04,485
There isn't any evidence

431
00:24:04,568 --> 00:24:07,196
of any express orders,
to my knowledge,

432
00:24:08,113 --> 00:24:12,117
but Himmler must have had
express orders from Hitler.

433
00:24:12,201 --> 00:24:14,578
Otherwise he would
have been out on his ear

434
00:24:14,662 --> 00:24:15,996
before he knew
what hit him.

435
00:24:16,538 --> 00:24:17,748
That's my thinking,
at least.

436
00:24:18,582 --> 00:24:21,835
Did Himmler
give written orders

437
00:24:22,544 --> 00:24:25,381
for the Final Solution
of the Jewish Question?

438
00:24:28,842 --> 00:24:29,885
Written?

439
00:24:30,970 --> 00:24:33,806
For extermination?
Physical extermination?

440
00:24:33,889 --> 00:24:34,974
Yes.

441
00:24:37,309 --> 00:24:39,269
I never saw
such orders, Captain.

442
00:24:41,146 --> 00:24:42,606
Wasn't like that.

443
00:24:42,690 --> 00:24:45,109
All I know
is that Heydrich said to me,

444
00:24:45,192 --> 00:24:46,819
"The Fuhrer has ordered

445
00:24:46,902 --> 00:24:49,822
physical extermination
of the Jews."

446
00:24:50,656 --> 00:24:52,700
He said it
as clearly and as surely

447
00:24:52,783 --> 00:24:54,576
as I'm repeating
it here now.

448
00:24:55,869 --> 00:24:57,413
I implored Muller.

449
00:24:58,247 --> 00:25:00,082
"Please,
don't send me there.

450
00:25:00,165 --> 00:25:03,544
Send someone else.
Someone with stronger nerves."

451
00:25:04,086 --> 00:25:05,462
They never sent me
to the front.

452
00:25:05,546 --> 00:25:07,423
I was never
a soldier.

453
00:25:08,507 --> 00:25:10,050
There are plenty
of other people

454
00:25:10,134 --> 00:25:13,345
who could stand
to see such things,

455
00:25:13,429 --> 00:25:14,972
who won't kneel over.

456
00:25:16,932 --> 00:25:20,102
"I can't stand it.
I can't, Gruppenfuhrer.”

457
00:25:22,271 --> 00:25:23,939
But it never
got me anywhere.

458
00:25:24,732 --> 00:25:25,899
We'll take
a break now.

459
00:25:26,608 --> 00:25:28,318
We'll continue
on this subject later.

460
00:25:30,362 --> 00:25:33,699
I heard your
wife's name is Vera, Captain.

461
00:25:33,782 --> 00:25:35,451
- You heard?
- Well...

462
00:25:36,410 --> 00:25:38,495
I overheard
some of the guards.

463
00:25:39,413 --> 00:25:41,331
My wife's name
is Vera, too.

464
00:25:42,583 --> 00:25:43,584
What are the chances?

465
00:25:48,839 --> 00:25:50,174
Perhaps it was fate.

466
00:26:06,523 --> 00:26:08,609
What do you know
about Zyklon B gas?

467
00:26:09,610 --> 00:26:11,653
Nothing,
apart from what I've heard.

468
00:26:12,488 --> 00:26:13,989
It's contained in beer.

469
00:26:15,115 --> 00:26:18,494
I only heard
the name Zyklon B recently.

470
00:26:19,661 --> 00:26:21,830
I knew of it
as prussic acid.

471
00:26:21,914 --> 00:26:22,915
Mm.

472
00:26:23,582 --> 00:26:26,627
Well, I'm now going
to quote from the German edition

473
00:26:26,710 --> 00:26:29,755
of the Proceedings of the Trial
of the Leading War Criminals

474
00:26:29,838 --> 00:26:33,467
Before the International
Military Court in Nuremberg.

475
00:26:35,010 --> 00:26:38,097
"From the sworn
testimony of Rudolf Hoss,

476
00:26:38,180 --> 00:26:40,307
who was camp commander
at Auschwitz

477
00:26:40,390 --> 00:26:42,851
from 1914 to 1943."

478
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:44,520
He said...

479
00:26:45,896 --> 00:26:48,649
"Eichmann was
repeatedly in Auschwitz

480
00:26:48,732 --> 00:26:51,151
and knew exactly
what was being done."

481
00:26:51,235 --> 00:26:54,530
Captain, I only knew
what I had said.

482
00:26:55,697 --> 00:26:58,367
Neither in Auschwitz
or anywhere else

483
00:26:58,450 --> 00:27:01,703
did I witness
the extermination process.

484
00:27:02,996 --> 00:27:04,540
It was only in Minsk

485
00:27:04,623 --> 00:27:07,876
that I got there
after the shooting had begun.

486
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,964
Everywhere else, I refused,
because I wasn't up to it.

487
00:27:12,756 --> 00:27:15,217
I knew nothing
about the gas.

488
00:27:15,300 --> 00:27:18,095
When Rudolf Hoss
was under arrest in Poland,

489
00:27:18,637 --> 00:27:21,348
he made some
autobiographical notes.

490
00:27:24,768 --> 00:27:26,061
Here.

491
00:27:26,145 --> 00:27:28,689
I have, uh,
an extract from his book,

492
00:27:28,772 --> 00:27:30,232
<i>Commandant of Auschwitz.</i>

493
00:27:30,983 --> 00:27:32,609
"Eichmann told me
about the killing

494
00:27:32,693 --> 00:27:34,862
by exhaust fumes
in trucks,

495
00:27:35,737 --> 00:27:38,115
as had been practiced
in the east up until then.

496
00:27:39,032 --> 00:27:41,160
That, however,
would not have been possible

497
00:27:41,243 --> 00:27:44,872
for the mass shipments that
we-- that were to be expected.

498
00:27:46,123 --> 00:27:49,126
Killing by spraying with
carbon monoxide in a bathroom

499
00:27:49,209 --> 00:27:51,086
as it had been done
with the mentally ill

500
00:27:51,170 --> 00:27:52,629
in some places
in the Reich,

501
00:27:53,255 --> 00:27:55,340
would have required
too many buildings.

502
00:27:56,175 --> 00:27:57,843
Moreover,
it was questionable

503
00:27:57,926 --> 00:28:00,888
whether sufficient gas
could be procured

504
00:28:00,971 --> 00:28:02,931
for such a vast
number of people.

505
00:28:04,308 --> 00:28:06,351
We left
the matter unresolved.

506
00:28:07,311 --> 00:28:10,522
Eichmann undertook
to find out about a gas

507
00:28:10,606 --> 00:28:12,649
that was easily obtainable

508
00:28:12,733 --> 00:28:15,360
and required
no special installations.

509
00:28:16,403 --> 00:28:17,863
And report
to me about it."

510
00:28:19,364 --> 00:28:20,449
Have you
a comment to make?

511
00:28:21,033 --> 00:28:22,826
Yes, sir, I have.

512
00:28:23,660 --> 00:28:26,246
The overwhelming majority
of these assertions

513
00:28:26,330 --> 00:28:27,956
are pure invention.

514
00:28:28,874 --> 00:28:30,709
It is obvious to me

515
00:28:30,792 --> 00:28:34,546
that his only intention
was to clear the name

516
00:28:34,630 --> 00:28:36,131
of his department:

517
00:28:37,007 --> 00:28:41,136
the SS Administration
and Supply Headquarters.

518
00:28:41,220 --> 00:28:45,515
And why would he bother
protecting his own department

519
00:28:45,599 --> 00:28:47,935
when he was
on trial for war crimes?

520
00:28:48,018 --> 00:28:51,271
I haven't the faintest idea.
His reasons are unknown to me.

521
00:28:52,272 --> 00:28:55,192
But I never, in any way--
and to this, Captain,

522
00:28:55,275 --> 00:28:59,488
I will take any oath--
discussed this matter with Hoss.

523
00:28:59,571 --> 00:29:01,490
I will now show you
a document presented

524
00:29:01,573 --> 00:29:03,450
by the prosecution

525
00:29:03,533 --> 00:29:06,787
of the first
Nuremberg War Crimes trial.

526
00:29:06,870 --> 00:29:09,623
It is a statement
by Dr. Kurt Gerstein,

527
00:29:10,207 --> 00:29:12,668
former head of the Technical
Disinfection Service

528
00:29:12,751 --> 00:29:15,045
in the SS
Command headquarters.

529
00:29:17,422 --> 00:29:20,717
Now, it concerns the utilization
of the poison gas

530
00:29:20,801 --> 00:29:24,721
that had been ordered
from him in July 1942

531
00:29:25,389 --> 00:29:27,349
by Rolf Gunther.

532
00:29:28,392 --> 00:29:31,645
Your deputy,
your representative.

533
00:29:31,728 --> 00:29:33,772
I wasn't
aware of Gunther ordering

534
00:29:33,855 --> 00:29:36,775
any prussic
acid in 1942,

535
00:29:38,193 --> 00:29:40,404
I must say
it's odd, very odd,

536
00:29:40,487 --> 00:29:43,365
that Gunther
should be mixed up in this.

537
00:29:44,241 --> 00:29:46,618
I wasn't involved
in this, Captain.

538
00:29:46,702 --> 00:29:50,330
I ask that you not attach
any importance to this document.

539
00:29:51,123 --> 00:29:53,667
If I had anything
to do with it,

540
00:29:53,750 --> 00:29:57,462
my name would be mentioned
here, as per custom.

541
00:29:57,546 --> 00:30:00,007
But you gave
Gunther the order.

542
00:30:00,590 --> 00:30:02,634
He certainly wouldn't
have acted on his own accord.

543
00:30:02,718 --> 00:30:04,136
No, no, no.

544
00:30:04,678 --> 00:30:06,388
And this
I must deny, Captain.

545
00:30:08,098 --> 00:30:12,477
Of course Gunther didn't think
of this on his own.

546
00:30:12,561 --> 00:30:15,188
He must have received an order.
That much is plain.

547
00:30:16,023 --> 00:30:18,191
But he didn't
get it from me.

548
00:30:18,900 --> 00:30:20,068
I didn't know.

549
00:30:20,777 --> 00:30:22,821
A hundred kilos
of prussic acid.

550
00:30:23,739 --> 00:30:25,115
I knew nothing
about that.

551
00:30:26,658 --> 00:30:30,203
He must have got the order
from Muller-- directly.

552
00:30:31,371 --> 00:30:33,165
I find that
hard to believe,

553
00:30:33,915 --> 00:30:36,626
that Muller would
go over your head

554
00:30:37,753 --> 00:30:40,172
in giving Gunther
a special order?

555
00:30:41,089 --> 00:30:46,470
No. What Gerstein says here that
suddenly, on June 8th, 1942,

556
00:30:46,553 --> 00:30:48,555
Gunther ordered the gas.

557
00:30:48,638 --> 00:30:50,557
With Hoss' statement
about the preparations

558
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:52,225
for the gassing

559
00:30:52,309 --> 00:30:54,978
and your telling him
that you'd find out about a gas.

560
00:30:57,606 --> 00:30:59,399
Hangs together rather
nicely, doesn't it?

561
00:30:59,483 --> 00:31:02,611
Oh, I'm sorry, Captain,
but lots of things

562
00:31:02,694 --> 00:31:05,238
that have happened
"hang together nicely."

563
00:31:05,322 --> 00:31:07,282
But if I had been
involved in it,

564
00:31:07,366 --> 00:31:09,242
Gerstein would
have mentioned me.

565
00:31:09,326 --> 00:31:12,621
And Gerstein
never mentioned me.

566
00:31:12,704 --> 00:31:15,290
Do you remember
The Wannsee Conference,

567
00:31:15,957 --> 00:31:20,212
where the implementation
of the Final Solution

568
00:31:20,295 --> 00:31:22,297
was determined?

569
00:31:22,381 --> 00:31:24,132
Yes, I was present.

570
00:31:24,674 --> 00:31:27,719
I wrote the invitations
to the state secretaries.

571
00:31:27,803 --> 00:31:29,012
Is that all?

572
00:31:29,096 --> 00:31:30,389
Yes.

573
00:31:30,472 --> 00:31:31,723
Well,
why were you invited

574
00:31:31,807 --> 00:31:33,225
if you played
such a...

575
00:31:34,851 --> 00:31:36,186
subordinate role?

576
00:31:36,269 --> 00:31:37,938
I had to write
the invitations,

577
00:31:38,605 --> 00:31:42,401
supply Heydrich
with data for his speeches,

578
00:31:42,484 --> 00:31:44,569
the immigration information
and so on.

579
00:31:45,278 --> 00:31:46,571
Was Muller there, too?

580
00:31:46,655 --> 00:31:47,697
Yes.

581
00:31:48,657 --> 00:31:50,325
It was
a high-level conference,

582
00:31:50,409 --> 00:31:54,121
as I said then.
Nothing below state secretary.

583
00:31:54,996 --> 00:31:58,375
Then why bring
little Eichmann in?

584
00:31:59,793 --> 00:32:03,547
Heydrich couldn't
have been all that keen on

585
00:32:03,630 --> 00:32:05,132
having to keep asking

586
00:32:05,215 --> 00:32:07,717
during the conference,
"Are my figures correct?"

587
00:32:07,801 --> 00:32:10,011
No,
he did that beforehand.

588
00:32:11,054 --> 00:32:12,848
Things to do
with emmigration.

589
00:32:14,015 --> 00:32:16,351
At the time
of The Wannsee Conference,

590
00:32:16,435 --> 00:32:18,437
the killing
had just begun.

591
00:32:19,312 --> 00:32:22,190
The gassing machines
were already at work.

592
00:32:22,983 --> 00:32:24,609
And if the killing
had started--

593
00:32:24,693 --> 00:32:26,194
And it had started!

594
00:32:28,238 --> 00:32:31,783
It was probably to do with
the organization of the program,

595
00:32:31,867 --> 00:32:34,494
something that
I had nothing to do with.

596
00:32:34,578 --> 00:32:35,954
Most
would regard the fact

597
00:32:36,037 --> 00:32:39,166
that you were brought
to the conference

598
00:32:39,249 --> 00:32:42,210
an indication
that you played a much...

599
00:32:42,919 --> 00:32:45,964
bigger role in the Final
Solution than you admit.

600
00:32:47,549 --> 00:32:49,634
No, no, Captain.

601
00:32:49,718 --> 00:32:52,262
If I had spoken up
at The Wannsee Conference,

602
00:32:52,345 --> 00:32:55,140
it would have been
purely to say, "Yes, sir."

603
00:32:57,309 --> 00:33:01,521
I-- I sat in the corner
with the stenotypist

604
00:33:01,605 --> 00:33:03,231
and nobody
bothered with me.

605
00:33:03,315 --> 00:33:04,566
Not even Heydrich.

606
00:33:05,609 --> 00:33:07,444
I was insignificant there.

607
00:33:10,322 --> 00:33:12,782
Rudolf Hoss
quotes you here.

608
00:33:14,034 --> 00:33:16,161
"I will leap
into my grave laughing

609
00:33:16,244 --> 00:33:19,664
because the feeling that
I have five million human beings

610
00:33:19,748 --> 00:33:20,957
on my conscience...

611
00:33:21,833 --> 00:33:25,337
is for me a source
of extraordinary satisfaction.

612
00:33:27,172 --> 00:33:30,008
Yes, I believe
I remember that.

613
00:33:31,551 --> 00:33:35,263
But I was referring
to the enemies of the Reich--

614
00:33:35,347 --> 00:33:37,974
The Soviets,
not the Jews.

615
00:33:38,808 --> 00:33:40,852
There wasn't any mention
of the Jews at all,

616
00:33:40,936 --> 00:33:42,270
no mention whatsoever.

617
00:33:52,531 --> 00:33:55,700
Here is a document presented
by the prosecution

618
00:33:55,784 --> 00:33:58,995
of the 11th War Crimes
Trial at Nuremberg.

619
00:33:59,704 --> 00:34:02,457
It comes
from the Foreign Office

620
00:34:03,124 --> 00:34:05,418
and it concerns
the shipment

621
00:34:05,502 --> 00:34:09,089
of 318 Hungarian Jews.

622
00:34:13,176 --> 00:34:14,636
Hmm. Yes.

623
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,806
Well, it's to do
with an illegal shipment.

624
00:34:18,557 --> 00:34:22,227
And in my opinion,
it is a mistake

625
00:34:22,310 --> 00:34:23,853
where it says here

626
00:34:23,937 --> 00:34:26,398
that these things
were arranged

627
00:34:26,481 --> 00:34:28,400
between Reich Fuhrer Himmler

628
00:34:28,483 --> 00:34:30,944
and Ostbahn Fuhrer Eichmann.

629
00:34:31,570 --> 00:34:32,821
That is wrong.

630
00:34:33,697 --> 00:34:35,532
Himmler organized
these things with...

631
00:34:36,866 --> 00:34:39,119
Dr. Kasztner
and Kurt Becker.

632
00:34:39,911 --> 00:34:40,954
Dr. Kasztner?

633
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:43,582
As in the Kasztner train?

634
00:34:43,665 --> 00:34:44,708
The same one.

635
00:34:45,458 --> 00:34:48,128
He saved 1,700 Jews.

636
00:34:48,712 --> 00:34:49,879
More than Schindler.

637
00:34:50,714 --> 00:34:52,591
But Schindler
wasn't assassinated

638
00:34:52,674 --> 00:34:54,718
by your countrymen
three years ago.

639
00:34:54,801 --> 00:34:57,470
He wasn't assassinated
by my countrymen.

640
00:34:58,263 --> 00:35:01,057
He was assassinated
by extremists.

641
00:35:02,726 --> 00:35:06,104
And Schindler
was responsible for saving Jews.

642
00:35:06,896 --> 00:35:07,981
Not killing them.

643
00:35:09,107 --> 00:35:11,026
He didn't
pull any triggers.

644
00:35:11,109 --> 00:35:14,112
But don't you think
that he is responsible,

645
00:35:14,195 --> 00:35:15,488
partly at least,

646
00:35:16,072 --> 00:35:17,949
for the Jews
that he didn't save?

647
00:35:18,992 --> 00:35:22,454
Or for not alerting the world
to the mass murder of Jews?

648
00:35:23,204 --> 00:35:26,541
Eichmann,
if you really believed that,

649
00:35:27,334 --> 00:35:29,169
you'd consider yourself guilty.

650
00:35:29,252 --> 00:35:32,213
Ah,
So, you see my point?

651
00:35:32,797 --> 00:35:34,883
No. No, I don't.

652
00:35:36,301 --> 00:35:40,930
I'm as guilty
or innocent as Schindler.

653
00:35:41,973 --> 00:35:45,894
And I am certainly more
innocent than Dr. Kasztner.

654
00:35:47,187 --> 00:35:48,188
And Becker?

655
00:35:49,898 --> 00:35:51,274
Becker was the commissaire

656
00:35:51,358 --> 00:35:54,027
of all the German
concentration camps

657
00:35:54,110 --> 00:35:56,529
and the Economic
Department in Hungary.

658
00:35:56,613 --> 00:35:58,615
What was
the Economic Department?

659
00:35:59,949 --> 00:36:03,495
Their job was to extract
all economic benefits

660
00:36:03,578 --> 00:36:05,038
from the Jews:

661
00:36:05,121 --> 00:36:07,415
steal their property
and belongings,

662
00:36:07,499 --> 00:36:09,793
cut off their hair,
pull out their teeth.

663
00:36:10,710 --> 00:36:13,129
Their hair
was very profitable.

664
00:36:14,756 --> 00:36:16,633
He sold it
to the Schaeffler Group

665
00:36:16,716 --> 00:36:19,052
for use
in their automobile parts.

666
00:36:20,261 --> 00:36:22,222
Upholstery,
I believe it was.

667
00:36:23,723 --> 00:36:26,726
Becker was very
resourceful for Himmler.

668
00:36:26,810 --> 00:36:29,604
Yes, I see here that Becker
was cleared at Nuremberg.

669
00:36:30,188 --> 00:36:31,690
Not just that, Captain,

670
00:36:32,357 --> 00:36:35,110
but he was never
even on trial.

671
00:36:35,735 --> 00:36:38,947
He was there as a witness,
not as a war criminal.

672
00:36:39,906 --> 00:36:42,283
That snake, Dr. Kasztner,

673
00:36:42,367 --> 00:36:45,245
testified before
the Nuremberg Court

674
00:36:46,037 --> 00:36:50,291
that Becker opposed
the annihilation of Jews.

675
00:36:51,126 --> 00:36:53,044
He did
no such thing.

676
00:36:53,628 --> 00:36:58,299
And now he is one
of the most wealthy men

677
00:36:58,383 --> 00:36:59,467
in Western Germany.

678
00:36:59,551 --> 00:37:00,593
A businessman.

679
00:37:02,554 --> 00:37:05,974
But I doubt your government
would believe my accusations.

680
00:37:07,308 --> 00:37:09,102
Probably wasting my breath.

681
00:37:09,853 --> 00:37:12,647
Well, this communication
makes no mention of Becker.

682
00:37:12,731 --> 00:37:16,818
It refers to a conversation
between you and Himmler.

683
00:37:18,111 --> 00:37:19,696
Well, yes.

684
00:37:20,488 --> 00:37:22,741
That information
is partly true.

685
00:37:22,824 --> 00:37:26,995
I did meet with Himmler
with Becker, together.

686
00:37:28,204 --> 00:37:29,748
And later,

687
00:37:29,831 --> 00:37:33,293
Becker was ordered
to report to Himmler by himself.

688
00:37:34,544 --> 00:37:36,296
What they decided,
I don't know.

689
00:37:37,630 --> 00:37:40,383
I was only
to put through the transaction

690
00:37:40,467 --> 00:37:42,010
for the transport.

691
00:37:42,093 --> 00:37:43,887
So, you're claiming
you had...

692
00:37:44,971 --> 00:37:47,307
no part
in the negotiation?

693
00:37:47,932 --> 00:37:48,975
No.

694
00:37:50,101 --> 00:37:53,480
It was Himmler,
Becker and Dr. Kasztner.

695
00:37:54,063 --> 00:37:56,524
The economic end
wasn't my department.

696
00:37:57,150 --> 00:38:00,111
I was only interested
in the police aspect.

697
00:38:00,904 --> 00:38:03,031
I made no deals
for transport...

698
00:38:03,948 --> 00:38:05,742
no deals about anything.

699
00:38:06,785 --> 00:38:09,704
Hmm. So, you want me
to believe

700
00:38:09,788 --> 00:38:11,414
that your department

701
00:38:12,332 --> 00:38:13,958
was so ignorant

702
00:38:14,918 --> 00:38:17,462
that it would tell
the Foreign Office

703
00:38:17,545 --> 00:38:19,464
that the shipment of Jews

704
00:38:19,547 --> 00:38:21,382
was the product of...

705
00:38:22,342 --> 00:38:23,802
an oral agreement

706
00:38:23,885 --> 00:38:26,471
between Himmler and you?

707
00:38:28,264 --> 00:38:31,810
Well, that
information is half correct

708
00:38:31,893 --> 00:38:35,730
because I did meet
with Himmler with Becker,

709
00:38:35,814 --> 00:38:38,942
but he also met
with Himmler separately.

710
00:38:39,025 --> 00:38:41,736
We had
two divisions of labor.

711
00:38:42,487 --> 00:38:44,447
One took care
of certain things

712
00:38:44,531 --> 00:38:47,283
and one took care
of certain other things.

713
00:38:48,409 --> 00:38:49,536
Becker, for instance,

714
00:38:50,203 --> 00:38:51,996
couldn't have
transported the Jews

715
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:53,873
across the border safely.

716
00:38:53,957 --> 00:38:56,626
That was
in my province.

717
00:38:56,709 --> 00:38:59,003
And when did this,
uh, conference

718
00:38:59,087 --> 00:39:00,713
with Himmler take place?

719
00:39:00,797 --> 00:39:02,173
1944.

720
00:39:02,715 --> 00:39:04,592
Late 1944.

721
00:39:07,053 --> 00:39:09,514
I remember Himmler

722
00:39:10,265 --> 00:39:13,268
had a train
outside of a tunnel.

723
00:39:14,060 --> 00:39:17,397
And there was
an air raid alarm.

724
00:39:18,314 --> 00:39:20,275
The train went
into the tunnel.

725
00:39:22,652 --> 00:39:24,737
On the way there
from Budapest,

726
00:39:24,821 --> 00:39:26,698
we went in two cars:

727
00:39:26,781 --> 00:39:29,409
Becker in Himmler's
and I in mine.

728
00:39:29,993 --> 00:39:33,496
Earlier, Becker
had shown me a gold necklace,

729
00:39:33,580 --> 00:39:36,291
which he'd meant to give him
for his mistress,

730
00:39:36,374 --> 00:39:37,834
with whom
he'd had a child.

731
00:39:39,460 --> 00:39:40,879
Then,

732
00:39:40,962 --> 00:39:45,049
he told me
that he was optimistic

733
00:39:45,133 --> 00:39:46,801
about the outcome
of the war.

734
00:39:49,762 --> 00:39:52,015
Yes. Yes, yes.

735
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:54,225
Look, don't worry.
I'm sure it's nothing.

736
00:39:57,896 --> 00:39:59,147
Has anything else
been happening?

737
00:40:02,942 --> 00:40:03,943
Oh, that's great.

738
00:40:06,154 --> 00:40:08,489
Yes. Yes.
I will come. I will come.

739
00:40:10,450 --> 00:40:12,911
No, no, no. I-- |-
I promise, I won't wake him.

740
00:40:15,246 --> 00:40:16,831
Listen, tell him
I'm proud of--

741
00:40:31,346 --> 00:40:32,805
We're getting nowhere,
Avner.

742
00:40:33,431 --> 00:40:36,935
He's not admitted to having
more than an ancillary role

743
00:40:37,018 --> 00:40:38,728
in the Third Reich
and the Final Solution.

744
00:40:38,811 --> 00:40:40,021
He's not stupid.

745
00:40:40,772 --> 00:40:43,524
His defense strategy follows
Nuremberg to the letter.

746
00:40:43,608 --> 00:40:45,610
He distances
himself from actions

747
00:40:45,693 --> 00:40:47,779
as far away
as possible.

748
00:40:47,862 --> 00:40:51,449
And when I give him
documentary proof,

749
00:40:51,532 --> 00:40:53,826
well,
he starts blaming others--

750
00:40:54,869 --> 00:40:57,789
Subordinates, superiors.
Failing that,

751
00:40:57,872 --> 00:41:00,708
he just says,
"I was following orders."

752
00:41:03,044 --> 00:41:04,337
Now, I don't know
whether he's thinking

753
00:41:04,420 --> 00:41:05,838
he can save
his own neck...

754
00:41:07,465 --> 00:41:08,967
but he's not doing
a bad job.

755
00:41:10,051 --> 00:41:11,928
Eichmann is not
going to tell us

756
00:41:12,011 --> 00:41:15,056
he had a decisive role
in the Final Solution.

757
00:41:15,139 --> 00:41:17,475
And it seems
you can't get him to confess it.

758
00:41:17,558 --> 00:41:18,768
I can.

759
00:41:18,851 --> 00:41:20,728
I just need more time.

760
00:41:22,271 --> 00:41:24,107
Eichmann
trusts me in a way.

761
00:41:24,190 --> 00:41:27,110
I'm the closest thing
that he has to a confidant,

762
00:41:27,193 --> 00:41:29,404
closest thing
to a friend,

763
00:41:29,487 --> 00:41:31,155
at least
someone who will listen.

764
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:32,615
I can use that.

765
00:41:32,699 --> 00:41:33,950
We don't have all the time
in the world

766
00:41:34,033 --> 00:41:35,660
for you two to bond.

767
00:41:35,743 --> 00:41:37,954
The whole of Israel
is calling for his execution.

768
00:41:38,037 --> 00:41:39,247
We are not barbarians.

769
00:41:39,872 --> 00:41:43,334
He does deserve to die.
Sooner is better than later.

770
00:41:43,418 --> 00:41:45,670
We are not Nazis.

771
00:41:45,753 --> 00:41:47,672
I'm getting pressure
from the very top.

772
00:41:47,755 --> 00:41:50,174
If you don't get
somewhere soon--

773
00:41:50,258 --> 00:41:53,177
What? We're going to say
he hanged himself in his cell?

774
00:41:53,261 --> 00:41:54,262
Who's going
to believe that?

775
00:41:55,847 --> 00:41:59,100
If you repeat
what I'm going to tell you now

776
00:41:59,183 --> 00:42:04,063
to anyone, ever, then you'll be
charged with treason.

777
00:42:05,023 --> 00:42:08,317
If we can't get somewhere
close to a confession,

778
00:42:08,401 --> 00:42:09,902
if after this process

779
00:42:09,986 --> 00:42:11,946
we're able to secure
a conviction,

780
00:42:12,030 --> 00:42:14,949
then I have the authority
to destroy the tapes.

781
00:42:15,033 --> 00:42:18,244
We'll say there was a fire
or something along those lines.

782
00:42:18,327 --> 00:42:21,539
Uh, we-- we-- they will
doctor the transcripts

783
00:42:21,622 --> 00:42:23,041
and make
the transcribers swear

784
00:42:23,124 --> 00:42:25,209
that that's what
they heard on the tapes.

785
00:42:25,293 --> 00:42:27,587
It may be only
a few minor changes,

786
00:42:27,670 --> 00:42:29,922
a few words here and there
that'll make the difference

787
00:42:30,006 --> 00:42:33,843
between Eichmann
being convicted or acquitted.

788
00:42:33,926 --> 00:42:35,303
And the machine
you're using,

789
00:42:35,386 --> 00:42:36,846
I believe,
belongs to the Soviet.

790
00:42:36,929 --> 00:42:38,431
It shouldn't be
too difficult

791
00:42:38,514 --> 00:42:40,808
to make people believe
that it simply broke.

792
00:42:42,602 --> 00:42:43,770
Why am I
being followed?

793
00:42:45,688 --> 00:42:48,232
Why are there strange
cars outside my house?

794
00:42:50,109 --> 00:42:52,403
What does my wife tell me
there are strange men

795
00:42:52,487 --> 00:42:54,155
when she picks
the children up from school?

796
00:42:54,238 --> 00:42:55,239
Avner...

797
00:42:55,823 --> 00:42:57,033
Don't lie to me,
Colonel.

798
00:42:58,117 --> 00:42:59,243
I know
they're your men.

799
00:43:00,536 --> 00:43:02,163
It's just a precaution.

800
00:43:02,246 --> 00:43:03,956
We're getting
death threats daily

801
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,001
from lunatics,
radical groups.

802
00:43:07,627 --> 00:43:10,046
It's just--
it's just a precaution.

803
00:43:10,129 --> 00:43:13,007
You're the one
who didn't want

804
00:43:13,091 --> 00:43:16,010
this-- this investigation
in the first place.

805
00:43:16,094 --> 00:43:17,386
Don't make things difficult.

806
00:43:18,805 --> 00:43:20,973
If Eichmann
doesn't get a fair trial...

807
00:43:23,017 --> 00:43:24,727
we're turning our back
on the past.

808
00:43:26,646 --> 00:43:28,147
Avner.

809
00:43:28,231 --> 00:43:30,233
If we don't
get somewhere soon,

810
00:43:30,316 --> 00:43:32,360
you'll leave me no choice.

811
00:43:38,574 --> 00:43:39,909
You've stated you...

812
00:43:40,743 --> 00:43:42,870
only act on orders.

813
00:43:46,207 --> 00:43:49,252
I'm going to show
you some documents

814
00:43:50,545 --> 00:43:52,130
presented by the prosecution

815
00:43:52,213 --> 00:43:54,841
at the 11th War Crime
Trials of Nuremberg.

816
00:43:57,343 --> 00:43:59,470
The first
is a telegram...

817
00:44:02,265 --> 00:44:07,854
to the Foreign Office,
dated March 13, 1943,

818
00:44:08,771 --> 00:44:10,731
dealing with
the anti-Jewish measures

819
00:44:10,815 --> 00:44:12,733
planned by the Italian
Foreign Ministry.

820
00:44:13,776 --> 00:44:15,403
Now, the second document, uh,

821
00:44:16,279 --> 00:44:19,615
is from Foreign
Minister Ribbentrop,

822
00:44:19,699 --> 00:44:21,826
uh, asking your department

823
00:44:21,909 --> 00:44:25,496
to determine in consultation
with Himmler

824
00:44:25,580 --> 00:44:28,166
whether the anti-Jewish
measures decided

825
00:44:28,249 --> 00:44:32,044
in the Italian-occupied Greece

826
00:44:32,712 --> 00:44:33,713
were, um...

827
00:44:34,672 --> 00:44:35,673
adequate.

828
00:44:36,591 --> 00:44:38,718
And if so,
whether these measures

829
00:44:38,801 --> 00:44:40,595
were actually being
carried out.

830
00:44:42,513 --> 00:44:44,515
Now, here it claims

831
00:44:45,099 --> 00:44:49,020
you determined the anti-Jewish
measures were inadequate.

832
00:44:49,854 --> 00:44:52,440
Because on the one hand
they were identical

833
00:44:52,523 --> 00:44:57,528
with the likewise inadequate
anti-Jewish measures

834
00:44:57,612 --> 00:44:58,696
current in Italy.

835
00:45:00,323 --> 00:45:02,533
And on the other
hand, expertise,

836
00:45:02,617 --> 00:45:05,203
uh, or other experience,
gave you ground for doubt

837
00:45:05,286 --> 00:45:09,790
that the measures
were being honestly carried out.

838
00:45:11,417 --> 00:45:12,710
Well, yeah,

839
00:45:12,793 --> 00:45:15,087
I don't remember
this particular case.

840
00:45:15,171 --> 00:45:18,007
I mean, it was
a long time ago, you know?

841
00:45:18,549 --> 00:45:19,717
Another lifetime.

842
00:45:21,385 --> 00:45:23,846
Well, can it be inferred
from this document

843
00:45:23,930 --> 00:45:25,723
that Ribbentrop
gave instructions

844
00:45:25,806 --> 00:45:26,974
to consult your department

845
00:45:27,058 --> 00:45:29,227
so as to be sure...

846
00:45:30,519 --> 00:45:32,104
of proceeding...

847
00:45:33,564 --> 00:45:35,233
with your wishes
and instructions?

848
00:45:37,026 --> 00:45:38,527
And I'm to take it

849
00:45:38,611 --> 00:45:40,446
that in fundamental
questions of this kind,

850
00:45:40,529 --> 00:45:42,740
the Foreign Office
couldn't make a decision

851
00:45:42,823 --> 00:45:46,744
without consulting
your department.

852
00:45:47,495 --> 00:45:50,581
Well, I suppose
my-- my department.

853
00:45:51,791 --> 00:45:55,461
I had to get my instructions
from my superiors.

854
00:45:57,755 --> 00:46:02,176
Now, I'm going to show
you another document

855
00:46:02,260 --> 00:46:03,928
presented by the prosecution

856
00:46:04,011 --> 00:46:07,098
at the 11th War Crime
Trials in Nuremberg.

857
00:46:08,182 --> 00:46:12,603
Uh... it's a telegram,
top secret, from Budapest,

858
00:46:12,687 --> 00:46:16,983
dated the 6th
of July, 1944,

859
00:46:18,150 --> 00:46:19,986
It's a situation report

860
00:46:20,069 --> 00:46:22,947
sent directly
by German minister in Budapest,

861
00:46:23,030 --> 00:46:24,573
Veesenmayer,

862
00:46:24,657 --> 00:46:26,784
to Foreign Minister Ribbentrop,

863
00:46:26,867 --> 00:46:29,161
regarding an interview
with Hungarian Prime Minister,

864
00:46:30,121 --> 00:46:31,122
Sztojay.

865
00:46:32,498 --> 00:46:35,376
Now, Sztojay was upset
about this order

866
00:46:35,459 --> 00:46:38,379
so he asked Veesenmayer
for an interview.

867
00:46:39,505 --> 00:46:41,465
And in that interview,

868
00:46:42,174 --> 00:46:44,176
Sztojay spoke of difficulties

869
00:46:44,260 --> 00:46:45,803
that the handling
of the Jewish Question

870
00:46:45,886 --> 00:46:48,180
was creating in Hungary.

871
00:46:49,181 --> 00:46:50,433
And now this report suggests

872
00:46:50,516 --> 00:46:52,184
that Hungarian
auth-- authorities

873
00:46:52,810 --> 00:46:56,814
weren't the ones demanding
deportation of the Jews.

874
00:46:57,732 --> 00:47:00,943
Yeah... The fact is,

875
00:47:01,944 --> 00:47:05,031
insofar as my own practice,

876
00:47:05,114 --> 00:47:09,493
that is, my own practical
experience is concerned--

877
00:47:10,161 --> 00:47:12,913
And I'm referring now
to the lower echelons--

878
00:47:15,583 --> 00:47:19,295
I couldn't help
but observe the opposite.

879
00:47:21,297 --> 00:47:24,800
And I assure you,
the whole course of events

880
00:47:24,884 --> 00:47:26,927
pointed in that direction.

881
00:47:28,054 --> 00:47:31,766
Without the help
of the Hungarian military,

882
00:47:31,849 --> 00:47:35,686
the processing of Jews
would not have been possible.

883
00:47:36,395 --> 00:47:40,649
And another indication
is that I, at no time,

884
00:47:40,733 --> 00:47:44,320
attempted to influence
the Hungarian government,

885
00:47:45,529 --> 00:47:48,324
as some people here
are trying to suggest.

886
00:47:48,407 --> 00:47:49,658
On the contrary,

887
00:47:50,659 --> 00:47:53,412
this document clearly states

888
00:47:53,496 --> 00:47:56,248
that these things originated

889
00:47:56,332 --> 00:47:59,251
from the highest
Reich authority,

890
00:48:00,169 --> 00:48:02,922
of which I played no part.

891
00:48:04,298 --> 00:48:07,259
But it clearly shows

892
00:48:07,843 --> 00:48:12,598
that the, uh,
civilian Hungarian population

893
00:48:12,681 --> 00:48:17,395
were not, uh, enthusiastic
about your anti-Jewish policy.

894
00:48:17,978 --> 00:48:22,942
Well, the interests of the
Hungarian civilian population

895
00:48:23,025 --> 00:48:24,402
were none
of my concern.

896
00:48:26,112 --> 00:48:28,197
That wasn't my job.

897
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:29,448
My job, Captain,

898
00:48:29,532 --> 00:48:31,075
was to carry out the orders

899
00:48:31,158 --> 00:48:32,451
that were given to me.

900
00:48:32,535 --> 00:48:35,329
And these things
were none of my concern.

901
00:48:36,580 --> 00:48:38,833
You can see here
that...

902
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:43,254
it clearly states that
these were things

903
00:48:43,337 --> 00:48:47,883
that concerned the highest
spheres of leadership.

904
00:48:49,927 --> 00:48:51,470
What did you do
about the Jews

905
00:48:51,554 --> 00:48:54,306
who fled
across the Hungarian borders

906
00:48:54,390 --> 00:48:56,016
to escape deportation?

907
00:48:56,100 --> 00:48:57,935
There must have been
a lot of them.

908
00:48:58,811 --> 00:48:59,895
It depends.

909
00:49:00,521 --> 00:49:03,566
It-- it depended
on the nature of the case

910
00:49:03,649 --> 00:49:05,484
and the nature
of the terrain.

911
00:49:06,444 --> 00:49:09,488
No German headquarters
were competent,

912
00:49:09,572 --> 00:49:12,158
because we had
no personnel.

913
00:49:13,909 --> 00:49:18,247
The competent authority
was the Hungarian military,

914
00:49:18,998 --> 00:49:21,709
who, among other things,

915
00:49:21,792 --> 00:49:25,254
did the same work
as our border police.

916
00:49:26,088 --> 00:49:28,674
But weren't you, uh, interested

917
00:49:28,757 --> 00:49:31,760
in letting
as few escape as possible,

918
00:49:31,844 --> 00:49:34,930
seeing that, uh,
the aim was to deport

919
00:49:35,014 --> 00:49:37,266
as many as possible?

920
00:49:38,559 --> 00:49:40,186
According to my orders, yes.

921
00:49:41,353 --> 00:49:43,439
According to the orders
that I had,

922
00:49:43,522 --> 00:49:45,649
of course it was
within my interest

923
00:49:45,733 --> 00:49:48,235
that Jews residing
in Hungary

924
00:49:48,319 --> 00:49:50,154
were to be deported

925
00:49:50,237 --> 00:49:52,990
and that
they shouldn't all escape.

926
00:49:54,283 --> 00:49:56,327
In a formal sense,
so to speak,

927
00:49:57,369 --> 00:49:58,662
I opposed it.

928
00:49:59,622 --> 00:50:00,789
But in practice,

929
00:50:01,874 --> 00:50:03,167
nothing was done.

930
00:50:05,377 --> 00:50:06,754
So, you're claiming

931
00:50:07,296 --> 00:50:10,841
that you allowed
some Jews to escape

932
00:50:11,759 --> 00:50:13,093
and you did nothing

933
00:50:13,886 --> 00:50:14,929
to organize their capture?

934
00:50:16,805 --> 00:50:17,806
Yes.

935
00:50:18,390 --> 00:50:21,352
I did exactly
as I was ordered to do.

936
00:50:21,894 --> 00:50:25,439
But beyond that,
I was not an anti-Semite.

937
00:50:26,565 --> 00:50:28,734
I did nothing

938
00:50:28,817 --> 00:50:31,028
beyond the strict orders

939
00:50:31,111 --> 00:50:32,947
to deport Jews,

940
00:50:33,030 --> 00:50:35,991
as you can see
by the large number

941
00:50:36,075 --> 00:50:37,743
who actually did escape.

942
00:50:39,411 --> 00:50:40,913
I'm going to show you

943
00:50:41,497 --> 00:50:44,500
some documents
presented by the prosecution

944
00:50:44,583 --> 00:50:47,711
of the 11th War Crime
Trials at Nuremberg.

945
00:50:48,629 --> 00:50:52,174
It's a telegram
signed by Veesenmayer

946
00:50:52,258 --> 00:50:56,428
dated Budapest, June 14, 1944,

947
00:50:57,513 --> 00:51:01,141
And it concerns
the flight of Jews to Slovakia.

948
00:51:02,059 --> 00:51:06,814
It's a telegram
from Veesenmayer to Ribbentrop.

949
00:51:09,149 --> 00:51:12,278
It deals
with the information

950
00:51:12,361 --> 00:51:14,947
that more
and more Jews...

951
00:51:16,782 --> 00:51:20,369
residing in Hungary
are crossing over to Slovakia.

952
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:23,289
And a suggestion
that if Ribbentrop agreed,

953
00:51:23,372 --> 00:51:26,083
Veesenmayer would meet
with the German minister

954
00:51:26,166 --> 00:51:27,793
in Slovakia

955
00:51:27,876 --> 00:51:30,087
to work out
joint practical measures.

956
00:51:30,879 --> 00:51:33,632
Since for political
and military reasons,

957
00:51:33,716 --> 00:51:37,511
these escapes
were most, uh, undesirable.

958
00:51:38,637 --> 00:51:42,016
Well, you see,
it's as I said before:

959
00:51:42,099 --> 00:51:46,520
the border zones naturally
tempted people to escape.

960
00:51:47,688 --> 00:51:49,773
The woods, the mountains.

961
00:51:50,524 --> 00:51:54,653
And undoubtedly,
the initiator of this action

962
00:51:54,737 --> 00:51:56,739
was not me.

963
00:51:58,073 --> 00:52:01,952
It seems there was
an uprising in East Slovakia.

964
00:52:02,036 --> 00:52:04,705
Yes.
After reading this document,

965
00:52:04,788 --> 00:52:07,124
can you still maintain
that the Hungarians

966
00:52:07,207 --> 00:52:08,626
were the driving force

967
00:52:08,709 --> 00:52:11,211
behind the extermination
of Jews in Hungary?

968
00:52:13,047 --> 00:52:15,090
Captain, if in war time

969
00:52:15,758 --> 00:52:17,676
people try to escape,

970
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:20,012
regardless
of whether they're Jews,

971
00:52:20,095 --> 00:52:22,097
Hungarians, Germans--

972
00:52:22,806 --> 00:52:24,016
Even Germans--

973
00:52:24,683 --> 00:52:26,060
It stands to reason

974
00:52:26,143 --> 00:52:29,313
that steps
must be taken to stop them.

975
00:52:31,732 --> 00:52:33,776
That was my position
no-- then,

976
00:52:34,777 --> 00:52:36,779
and I cannot deny it today.

977
00:52:38,030 --> 00:52:41,116
When several Jews
fled to Romania,

978
00:52:42,117 --> 00:52:45,287
did you not get in touch
with, uh, von Killinger,

979
00:52:45,371 --> 00:52:47,164
the German minister
in Bucharest,

980
00:52:47,998 --> 00:52:50,376
and demand
that these escaped

981
00:52:51,001 --> 00:52:54,254
be brought back
at all costs?

982
00:52:55,589 --> 00:52:58,842
At all costs?
At all costs?

983
00:53:00,511 --> 00:53:02,388
In the first place, that--

984
00:53:04,264 --> 00:53:07,851
I could never
had said those words.

985
00:53:09,812 --> 00:53:13,440
It is possible
that my associate, Krumi,

986
00:53:14,024 --> 00:53:18,320
had drafted
a-- a-- a formal warrant.

987
00:53:19,488 --> 00:53:21,573
But at all costs?

988
00:53:22,991 --> 00:53:25,828
Certainly
no one said that

989
00:53:25,911 --> 00:53:27,454
or anything like that.

990
00:53:28,997 --> 00:53:31,041
Your guidelines
for the shipment.

991
00:53:33,752 --> 00:53:37,214
They include the order,
"In cases of attempted escape,

992
00:53:37,297 --> 00:53:40,300
firearms are to be used."

993
00:53:41,343 --> 00:53:43,262
No,
I-- I've never heard of that.

994
00:53:44,304 --> 00:53:45,305
In Hungary...

995
00:53:47,057 --> 00:53:49,685
firearms definitely
weren't the practice.

996
00:53:50,686 --> 00:53:51,687
In Hungary,

997
00:53:52,604 --> 00:53:56,275
I am absolutely sure
that weapons were never used

998
00:53:56,358 --> 00:53:59,319
in cases
of attempted escape.

999
00:54:00,821 --> 00:54:01,905
No.

1000
00:54:01,989 --> 00:54:03,198
I don't believe that.

1001
00:54:03,949 --> 00:54:05,033
I don't believe it.

1002
00:54:08,412 --> 00:54:11,206
In an isolated case
or two,

1003
00:54:11,290 --> 00:54:14,793
it may have
somehow come to that,

1004
00:54:14,877 --> 00:54:16,420
but I can't imagine it.

1005
00:54:17,296 --> 00:54:19,173
It would not
have been necessary.

1006
00:54:20,257 --> 00:54:23,927
Had you told
the Hungarian undersecretary

1007
00:54:24,011 --> 00:54:27,139
that the half million
Jews deported

1008
00:54:28,265 --> 00:54:31,769
were sent to Auschwitz
to be gassed?

1009
00:54:31,852 --> 00:54:33,020
We-- Yes, I...

1010
00:54:34,062 --> 00:54:35,898
I personally believed,

1011
00:54:35,981 --> 00:54:37,816
and I still believe,

1012
00:54:37,900 --> 00:54:42,196
that the majority
of the 450,000 Jews

1013
00:54:42,279 --> 00:54:45,699
who were sent
to Auschwitz survived.

1014
00:54:47,785 --> 00:54:51,079
Because an order
came through

1015
00:54:51,163 --> 00:54:53,123
almost immediately,
as it were,

1016
00:54:54,583 --> 00:54:56,251
to stop the shipments.

1017
00:54:57,920 --> 00:54:58,921
From Himmler?

1018
00:54:59,588 --> 00:55:00,631
Yes.

1019
00:55:02,883 --> 00:55:06,428
The-- the commander of
the security police in Budapest

1020
00:55:06,512 --> 00:55:10,641
received a-- a suspension order.

1021
00:55:12,100 --> 00:55:16,104
There was not to be
any more deportations.

1022
00:55:18,023 --> 00:55:21,401
Because Auschwitz
had no more room.

1023
00:55:22,236 --> 00:55:25,113
That's why Himmler
sent orders

1024
00:55:25,823 --> 00:55:27,241
for the killings
to stop.

1025
00:55:28,283 --> 00:55:29,868
Auschwitz was full.

1026
00:55:29,952 --> 00:55:32,120
There was no room
for any more people.

1027
00:55:33,872 --> 00:55:37,292
I believe
there was a week's pause.

1028
00:55:39,086 --> 00:55:40,587
You mean
it started up again?

1029
00:55:42,047 --> 00:55:44,174
It started up
again after that?

1030
00:55:44,258 --> 00:55:45,259
Yes.

1031
00:55:47,344 --> 00:55:50,430
What is the meaning of,
"Termination

1032
00:55:50,514 --> 00:55:54,017
of the entire action,
including deportation,”

1033
00:55:54,101 --> 00:55:57,145
as your liaison in
the Foreign Office writes here?

1034
00:55:58,313 --> 00:56:01,149
Well, Captain,
it-- it means

1035
00:56:01,233 --> 00:56:04,486
total elimination
of the Jews in Hungary.

1036
00:56:07,364 --> 00:56:09,449
Including babies,

1037
00:56:10,534 --> 00:56:11,493
children,

1038
00:56:12,244 --> 00:56:13,245
old people?

1039
00:56:14,746 --> 00:56:16,456
Well, in this case, yes.

1040
00:56:17,249 --> 00:56:19,334
But that
wasn't my department.

1041
00:56:20,544 --> 00:56:22,379
This is the work

1042
00:56:22,462 --> 00:56:25,299
of the combined top brass:

1043
00:56:25,966 --> 00:56:28,677
Foreign Minister Ribbentrop

1044
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:30,804
and Reichsfuhrer Himmler.

1045
00:56:36,727 --> 00:56:38,395
Excuse me, Captain Less.

1046
00:56:42,399 --> 00:56:45,360
Herr Eichmann has
an appointment with the judge.

1047
00:56:49,281 --> 00:56:50,282
Oh--

1048
00:56:57,039 --> 00:56:58,665
No. Captain, please!

1049
00:56:59,291 --> 00:57:01,501
I-- I haven't told
you everything yet.

1050
00:57:01,585 --> 00:57:02,836
Don't take me away.
Please!

1051
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:03,962
Stop.

1052
00:57:04,922 --> 00:57:06,465
Don't worry.

1053
00:57:06,548 --> 00:57:09,468
You're being taken
to the justice of the peace

1054
00:57:09,551 --> 00:57:12,304
who is going to renew
your order for detention.

1055
00:57:13,180 --> 00:57:15,349
And then we'll
continue our sessions.

1056
00:57:37,496 --> 00:57:38,497
Captain.

1057
00:57:39,373 --> 00:57:42,626
May I make
some personal remarks?

1058
00:57:44,544 --> 00:57:47,381
I have long been
inwardly prepared

1059
00:57:47,923 --> 00:57:51,301
to make a general
statement of this sort,

1060
00:57:51,385 --> 00:57:55,973
but I did not know where fate
would call on me to make it.

1061
00:57:56,640 --> 00:57:58,266
Someone told me that...

1062
00:57:59,559 --> 00:58:02,062
I would appear in court
before the year was out.

1063
00:58:03,689 --> 00:58:05,023
I was also told

1064
00:58:05,107 --> 00:58:08,485
that I would not survive
my 56th birthday.

1065
00:58:11,029 --> 00:58:13,824
One of those prophecies
has already come true.

1066
00:58:13,907 --> 00:58:14,908
And the other...

1067
00:58:15,784 --> 00:58:16,785
I believe...

1068
00:58:17,828 --> 00:58:18,829
is inexorable.

1069
00:58:22,541 --> 00:58:27,170
All my life, I have been
accustomed to obedience,

1070
00:58:27,254 --> 00:58:32,217
from early childhood
until May 8th, 1945.

1071
00:58:33,468 --> 00:58:36,430
An obedience,
which during my years

1072
00:58:36,513 --> 00:58:38,306
of membership with the SS,

1073
00:58:39,016 --> 00:58:41,685
became blind
and unconditional.

1074
00:58:43,437 --> 00:58:44,479
For that...

1075
00:58:45,772 --> 00:58:49,401
what would I have
gained by disobedience,

1076
00:58:49,484 --> 00:58:50,902
and who would it have served?

1077
00:58:52,487 --> 00:58:56,366
For that,
my rank and function

1078
00:58:56,450 --> 00:58:59,369
placed me in a--
too far a lower position.

1079
00:59:01,872 --> 00:59:02,873
Nevertheless,

1080
00:59:04,082 --> 00:59:06,710
though I have
no blood on my hands...

1081
00:59:08,712 --> 00:59:11,882
I fully expect that
the death penalty awaits me.

1082
00:59:14,968 --> 00:59:18,889
If as a greater act
of atonement...

1083
00:59:21,808 --> 00:59:25,270
I am prepared
as an example

1084
00:59:25,353 --> 00:59:28,231
and a deterrent to other
anti-Semites of the world...

1085
00:59:30,358 --> 00:59:32,235
to hang myself
in public.

1086
00:59:36,823 --> 00:59:39,868
We have no recourse.
We must alter the records.

1087
00:59:39,951 --> 00:59:41,161
No.

1088
00:59:42,287 --> 00:59:43,413
Why?

1089
00:59:44,081 --> 00:59:46,124
Why-- why are
you so insistent

1090
00:59:46,208 --> 00:59:48,043
in showing justice
to a man

1091
00:59:48,126 --> 00:59:51,922
who showed no justice
whatsoever to six million souls,

1092
00:59:52,005 --> 00:59:55,467
who me-- at the very least,
aided in slaughtering?

1093
00:59:56,009 --> 00:59:59,429
He doesn't deserve it,
but he needs a fair trial.

1094
00:59:59,971 --> 01:00:02,808
The world needs
to see we are different.

1095
01:00:04,101 --> 01:00:06,853
It's been 15 years and some
of the world has forgotten.

1096
01:00:06,937 --> 01:00:08,688
But we cannot.

1097
01:00:09,314 --> 01:00:10,941
If we do not
learn from the past,

1098
01:00:11,525 --> 01:00:13,443
we are fated
to repeat it.

1099
01:00:13,527 --> 01:00:14,820
I'd agree with you

1100
01:00:14,903 --> 01:00:16,279
if this was a perfect world,

1101
01:00:16,363 --> 01:00:18,240
but it isn't a perfect world.

1102
01:00:18,323 --> 01:00:20,117
And sometimes we are forced

1103
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:21,910
to do unpleasant things

1104
01:00:21,993 --> 01:00:23,203
for the greater good.

1105
01:00:23,286 --> 01:00:24,996
Have you not read
the transcripts?

1106
01:00:26,039 --> 01:00:27,541
This is
how it starts.

1107
01:00:28,375 --> 01:00:30,919
Hitler didn't begin
by gassing the Jews.

1108
01:00:32,754 --> 01:00:36,216
Captain Less, I'm ordering you
to fabricate the transcripts.

1109
01:00:38,051 --> 01:00:39,261
You're ordering me?

1110
01:00:42,139 --> 01:00:43,181
No.

1111
01:00:44,474 --> 01:00:45,517
I refuse.

1112
01:00:46,143 --> 01:00:47,519
Excuse me?

1113
01:00:47,602 --> 01:00:50,397
If you continue
to pursue this plan...

1114
01:00:51,481 --> 01:00:53,150
I will go to the press.

1115
01:00:54,818 --> 01:00:58,488
Look, if you don't care
about your own life,

1116
01:00:58,572 --> 01:01:00,282
think about your family.

1117
01:01:00,365 --> 01:01:01,741
No!

1118
01:01:01,825 --> 01:01:04,661
I will not blindly
follow orders, like him.

1119
01:01:05,829 --> 01:01:07,706
I will go
to the press.

1120
01:01:07,789 --> 01:01:10,584
A-- Avner,
if Eichmann is acquitted,

1121
01:01:11,710 --> 01:01:13,295
it'll be
on your head.

1122
01:01:47,704 --> 01:01:49,122
I must
commend you, Captain.

1123
01:01:49,915 --> 01:01:52,250
I'm well aware
that throughout our sessions

1124
01:01:52,334 --> 01:01:56,922
you have not once attempted
to obtain a confession

1125
01:01:57,005 --> 01:02:00,175
through means
of a threat or promises.

1126
01:02:01,426 --> 01:02:03,178
I am grateful
for your fairness.

1127
01:02:09,351 --> 01:02:11,436
We're nearly at the end
of our interviews.

1128
01:02:12,646 --> 01:02:13,855
I'd like to show
you something.

1129
01:02:19,069 --> 01:02:20,320
Play the picture, please.

1130
01:04:42,337 --> 01:04:44,214
Captain!
Why are you showing me this?

1131
01:05:55,743 --> 01:05:57,036
Enough, Captain.

1132
01:05:57,704 --> 01:05:59,622
You know I don't have
the stomach for this.

1133
01:07:44,894 --> 01:07:45,895
Turn it off.

1134
01:07:46,479 --> 01:07:48,064
Please, Captain.
Turn it off!

1135
01:07:59,284 --> 01:08:01,744
I was born
in Germany.

1136
01:08:02,996 --> 01:08:04,747
I went
to school in Germany.

1137
01:08:05,790 --> 01:08:07,875
I grew up in Germany.

1138
01:08:08,793 --> 01:08:11,004
I left
when Hitler seized power.

1139
01:08:12,880 --> 01:08:14,299
You asked me
when we first met,

1140
01:08:14,382 --> 01:08:15,550
"Were my parents
still alive?"

1141
01:08:17,552 --> 01:08:19,137
My father was deported

1142
01:08:19,220 --> 01:08:21,055
by your organization

1143
01:08:21,806 --> 01:08:23,683
in January 1943.

1144
01:08:24,976 --> 01:08:28,146
It's horrible, Captain.
It's horrible.

1145
01:09:14,651 --> 01:09:18,529
I'd like to read
to you a few passages

1146
01:09:18,613 --> 01:09:20,740
from the German magazine, Stern.

1147
01:09:21,783 --> 01:09:24,827
The issue
of July 9, 1960,

1148
01:09:24,911 --> 01:09:27,038
contains an article
about you.

1149
01:09:27,789 --> 01:09:29,082
I'll read you
only a few bits.

1150
01:09:30,124 --> 01:09:32,919
Here it says,
"And so he writes"--

1151
01:09:33,002 --> 01:09:34,087
meaning you--

1152
01:09:34,796 --> 01:09:39,509
"On title page of Dr. Fritz
Kahn's book, The Atom,

1153
01:09:40,218 --> 01:09:42,512
'I mentally
digested this book

1154
01:09:42,595 --> 01:09:45,264
and found it to be
a magnificent confirmation

1155
01:09:45,348 --> 01:09:49,477
of the National Socialist
religion and theism.

1156
01:09:51,104 --> 01:09:53,815
And because this faith
is remotely related

1157
01:09:53,898 --> 01:09:55,650
to the communist doctrine,

1158
01:09:55,733 --> 01:09:58,319
that is
to Leninist materialism,

1159
01:09:58,403 --> 01:10:01,656
I warn my children not
to lump them all together.

1160
01:10:02,615 --> 01:10:06,536
Leninist-Marxist doctrine
teaches materialism.

1161
01:10:07,245 --> 01:10:09,455
It is cold
and lifeless.

1162
01:10:10,373 --> 01:10:12,458
Theism,
on the other hand,

1163
01:10:12,542 --> 01:10:16,212
is loving, natural
and always alive.

1164
01:10:17,088 --> 01:10:18,840
But unfortunately,

1165
01:10:18,923 --> 01:10:22,552
I fear that considering
the ignorance of my three sons,

1166
01:10:22,635 --> 01:10:26,472
all this will be no more
than empty talk to them.

1167
01:10:28,516 --> 01:10:30,685
My house was searched.

1168
01:10:31,686 --> 01:10:34,063
Yes,
I wrote that thing,

1169
01:10:34,147 --> 01:10:35,773
because my sons

1170
01:10:36,399 --> 01:10:39,819
were absolutely disinterested

1171
01:10:39,902 --> 01:10:42,363
in their-- their--

1172
01:10:42,447 --> 01:10:46,826
let's say s-- uh, uh, faculties
for spiritual development.

1173
01:10:47,910 --> 01:10:49,996
I wrote that
as a warning to them.

1174
01:10:50,079 --> 01:10:51,372
I love my children!

1175
01:10:54,208 --> 01:10:56,502
The article
goes on to say,

1176
01:10:57,503 --> 01:10:59,380
"He told them the excuse

1177
01:10:59,464 --> 01:11:02,341
or justification he had
prepared for himself.

1178
01:11:02,884 --> 01:11:05,219
He said
their father was wanted,

1179
01:11:05,303 --> 01:11:08,222
that he was accused
of hideous crimes.

1180
01:11:08,306 --> 01:11:09,515
But it was not true.

1181
01:11:10,391 --> 01:11:13,227
He had only been
a conscientious official

1182
01:11:13,311 --> 01:11:16,022
who had done
what he was ordered to do,

1183
01:11:16,689 --> 01:11:18,316
but never killed anyone"--

1184
01:11:18,399 --> 01:11:20,526
And that is the truth!

1185
01:11:22,779 --> 01:11:27,450
It continues, "With friends,
he admits who he is,

1186
01:11:27,533 --> 01:11:30,328
engages in
endless conversations,

1187
01:11:30,411 --> 01:11:32,914
reads everything
that has been published

1188
01:11:32,997 --> 01:11:36,209
since the war
about his field of activity,

1189
01:11:36,292 --> 01:11:37,877
the Jewish Question.

1190
01:11:38,878 --> 01:11:42,298
He clings desperately to
the one remaining justification

1191
01:11:42,381 --> 01:11:43,424
for his actions:

1192
01:11:44,383 --> 01:11:47,678
his oath to the flag,
his sense of duty...

1193
01:11:48,763 --> 01:11:50,348
and obedience.

1194
01:11:52,391 --> 01:11:55,061
And everyone
who in the last hours

1195
01:11:55,144 --> 01:11:56,729
of the thousand-year Reich

1196
01:11:56,813 --> 01:12:00,149
put human feeling
about unconditional obedience

1197
01:12:00,233 --> 01:12:04,570
is the object of Eichmann's
irreconcilable hatred.

1198
01:12:06,030 --> 01:12:08,741
He has read
Gerhard Boldt's book,

1199
01:12:08,825 --> 01:12:11,494
The Last Days
of the Reich Chancellery,

1200
01:12:11,577 --> 01:12:15,039
and discovered
that Boldt, the author,

1201
01:12:15,122 --> 01:12:19,085
was not obedient to his Fuhrer
down to the last comma.

1202
01:12:20,336 --> 01:12:23,923
The description on the dust
jacket begins with the words,

1203
01:12:24,006 --> 01:12:28,845
'In January 1945,
a young front line officer...'

1204
01:12:30,346 --> 01:12:32,807
Eichmann crosses
out 'front line officer'

1205
01:12:32,890 --> 01:12:35,226
and writes in 'scoundrel...

1206
01:12:36,185 --> 01:12:37,186
traitor...

1207
01:12:38,062 --> 01:12:39,063
skunk.'

1208
01:12:40,439 --> 01:12:42,650
Wherever Boldt's name
appears in the book,

1209
01:12:42,733 --> 01:12:44,944
he adds, 'scoundrel...

1210
01:12:45,736 --> 01:12:46,737
traitor...

1211
01:12:47,321 --> 01:12:48,406
skunk."

1212
01:12:53,077 --> 01:12:54,829
"Where Boldt said,

1213
01:12:54,912 --> 01:12:57,707
'The last days of
the National Socialist Reich,

1214
01:12:58,249 --> 01:13:00,001
high SS leaders

1215
01:13:00,084 --> 01:13:03,754
who had been haughty
and arrogant up until then,

1216
01:13:03,838 --> 01:13:05,506
suddenly shriveled

1217
01:13:05,590 --> 01:13:08,885
and appealed for sympathy
to anyone who would listen,'

1218
01:13:10,344 --> 01:13:12,722
Eichmann makes
the marginal note,

1219
01:13:13,764 --> 01:13:17,310
'The author
is a stupid asshole.

1220
01:13:19,979 --> 01:13:22,440
The swine's name
is Boldt.'

1221
01:13:23,316 --> 01:13:25,902
In another passage,
Eichmann writes,

1222
01:13:25,985 --> 01:13:29,155
'The author should be skinned
alive for his treachery.

1223
01:13:30,197 --> 01:13:34,243
With scoundrels of his ilk,
the war was bound to be lost.'

1224
01:13:35,870 --> 01:13:38,623
And finally,
on the last pages of the book,

1225
01:13:38,706 --> 01:13:40,249
Eichmann's resume':

1226
01:13:40,917 --> 01:13:44,962
'One, every man is entitled
to live as he pleases.

1227
01:13:45,671 --> 01:13:49,967
Two, but then he has no right
to call himself an officer.

1228
01:13:50,968 --> 01:13:56,474
Because three, officer
equals fulfillment of duty

1229
01:13:56,557 --> 01:13:59,352
as specified
in the soldier's oath.'

1230
01:14:01,562 --> 01:14:02,730
There we have
it again.

1231
01:14:04,106 --> 01:14:06,359
Fulfillment of duty,

1232
01:14:06,984 --> 01:14:09,320
that straw
which he clings to

1233
01:14:09,403 --> 01:14:11,948
and in defense
of which he develops a passion

1234
01:14:12,031 --> 01:14:13,574
and a vocabulary

1235
01:14:13,658 --> 01:14:15,409
he was not yet
familiar with

1236
01:14:15,493 --> 01:14:17,620
in the days
when he was coldly

1237
01:14:17,703 --> 01:14:19,497
and with murderous precision,

1238
01:14:19,580 --> 01:14:23,709
helping to solve
the Jewish Question."

1239
01:14:26,087 --> 01:14:28,214
Did you make such notes?

1240
01:14:30,299 --> 01:14:34,178
I-- I did make those notes.

1241
01:14:35,096 --> 01:14:38,140
But it is disgusting--
disgusting--

1242
01:14:38,224 --> 01:14:43,479
Of the man
to speak of a-- a straw

1243
01:14:43,562 --> 01:14:46,607
with which I was not
yet familiar at the time.

1244
01:14:47,900 --> 01:14:49,860
I was always
familiar with it.

1245
01:14:50,611 --> 01:14:52,238
In fact,
it was my norm.

1246
01:14:54,991 --> 01:14:56,993
I had taken Kant's...

1247
01:14:57,952 --> 01:15:02,206
categorical imperative
as my norm.

1248
01:15:02,289 --> 01:15:04,458
I did. Long ago.

1249
01:15:05,084 --> 01:15:09,380
I had ordered my life
by that imperative

1250
01:15:09,463 --> 01:15:13,426
and I had to continue to use it
in my sermons to my sons

1251
01:15:13,968 --> 01:15:17,805
when I realized that they were
letting themselves go.

1252
01:15:18,639 --> 01:15:21,058
I loved my sons
more than anything.

1253
01:15:21,767 --> 01:15:24,854
But in view
of their laziness,

1254
01:15:24,937 --> 01:15:28,691
their disinterest
in their education,

1255
01:15:29,650 --> 01:15:32,611
I tried
to use strong words.

1256
01:15:37,158 --> 01:15:39,201
Sometimes when
I was reading a book,

1257
01:15:39,285 --> 01:15:43,039
I would be seized
by righteous indignation.

1258
01:15:44,040 --> 01:15:46,375
And I would
take up a pencil

1259
01:15:46,459 --> 01:15:49,045
and write what seemed
significant to me

1260
01:15:49,128 --> 01:15:50,296
at that moment.

1261
01:15:54,216 --> 01:15:57,053
The Stern article goes on.

1262
01:15:58,095 --> 01:15:59,513
"Friends and acquaintances

1263
01:15:59,597 --> 01:16:02,433
who spoke with him
in Argentina at that time

1264
01:16:02,516 --> 01:16:05,811
described him as a man
who had gone to pieces,

1265
01:16:05,895 --> 01:16:08,898
who recognized
his unspeakable guilt,

1266
01:16:08,981 --> 01:16:11,776
but who instead
of confessing it to himself,

1267
01:16:12,610 --> 01:16:17,615
cast about with an obstinate
rage for formal justification

1268
01:16:17,698 --> 01:16:21,660
to avoid having
to condemn himself."

1269
01:16:21,744 --> 01:16:22,912
That's not true.

1270
01:16:23,537 --> 01:16:26,582
That-- that's
journalistic rubbish.

1271
01:16:27,374 --> 01:16:28,709
And now this:

1272
01:16:29,251 --> 01:16:30,669
"Eichmann's conscience.

1273
01:16:30,753 --> 01:16:33,297
'I'm getting sick
and tired,' he writes,

1274
01:16:33,380 --> 01:16:34,799
'of living the life

1275
01:16:34,882 --> 01:16:38,177
of an anonymous wanderer
between two worlds.

1276
01:16:38,719 --> 01:16:41,764
The voice of my heart,
which no man can escape,

1277
01:16:41,847 --> 01:16:45,893
has always whispered
to me to look for peace.

1278
01:16:47,311 --> 01:16:51,107
I would also like to be
at peace with my former enemies.

1279
01:16:51,190 --> 01:16:55,194
Maybe that is a part
of the German character.

1280
01:16:57,905 --> 01:17:00,199
I would be only
too glad to surrender

1281
01:17:00,282 --> 01:17:02,326
to the German authorities

1282
01:17:02,409 --> 01:17:04,495
if I were
not obliged to consider

1283
01:17:04,578 --> 01:17:06,413
that people may
still be too much interested

1284
01:17:06,497 --> 01:17:08,916
in the political
aspect of the matter

1285
01:17:08,999 --> 01:17:13,629
to permit of a clear,
objective outcome.

1286
01:17:15,548 --> 01:17:17,174
Far be it
for me to doubt

1287
01:17:17,258 --> 01:17:18,801
that a German court

1288
01:17:18,884 --> 01:17:21,720
would arrive
at a just verdict.

1289
01:17:22,429 --> 01:17:25,683
But I am not at all clear
about the judicial status

1290
01:17:26,392 --> 01:17:28,018
that would
be accorded today

1291
01:17:28,102 --> 01:17:30,437
to a former
receiver of orders

1292
01:17:30,521 --> 01:17:34,191
whose duty it was
to be loyal to his oath

1293
01:17:34,733 --> 01:17:37,486
and to carry out the orders
and instructions given him.

1294
01:17:39,280 --> 01:17:41,031
I was no more

1295
01:17:41,115 --> 01:17:43,367
than a faithful,
decent,

1296
01:17:44,160 --> 01:17:47,121
correct, conscientious

1297
01:17:47,204 --> 01:17:51,208
and enthusiastic
member of the SS

1298
01:17:51,292 --> 01:17:54,170
and of Reich
Security Headquarters,

1299
01:17:55,087 --> 01:17:58,924
inspired solely
by idealistic feelings

1300
01:17:59,008 --> 01:18:02,344
toward the fatherland, to which
I have the honor of belonging.

1301
01:18:04,138 --> 01:18:06,891
Despite conscientious
self-examination,

1302
01:18:07,600 --> 01:18:10,477
I must-- I must
find in my favor

1303
01:18:10,561 --> 01:18:12,646
that I was
neither a murderer

1304
01:18:13,772 --> 01:18:15,900
nor a mass murderer.

1305
01:18:17,484 --> 01:18:20,154
But to be
absolutely truthful,

1306
01:18:20,237 --> 01:18:23,699
I must accuse myself
of complicity in killing

1307
01:18:23,782 --> 01:18:27,328
because I passed on the
deportation orders I received

1308
01:18:27,411 --> 01:18:31,707
and because at least a fraction
of the deportees were killed,

1309
01:18:31,790 --> 01:18:33,584
though by
an entirely different unit.

1310
01:18:34,501 --> 01:18:37,880
I have said that I would
have to accuse myself

1311
01:18:37,963 --> 01:18:40,341
of complicity
in killing if...

1312
01:18:41,508 --> 01:18:44,136
I were to judge myself
with merciless severity.

1313
01:18:44,220 --> 01:18:46,555
But I do not yet
see clearly

1314
01:18:46,639 --> 01:18:48,641
whether I have
the right to do this

1315
01:18:48,724 --> 01:18:51,310
vis-a-vis
my immediate subordinates.

1316
01:18:52,102 --> 01:18:55,314
Therefore, I am still engaged
in an inner struggle.

1317
01:18:56,190 --> 01:18:58,817
My subjective attitude
towards the things that happened

1318
01:18:58,901 --> 01:19:01,654
was my belief
in the necessity of a total war.

1319
01:19:02,363 --> 01:19:04,365
Because I could
not help believing

1320
01:19:04,448 --> 01:19:07,743
in the constant proclamations
issued by the leaders

1321
01:19:07,826 --> 01:19:09,995
of the then German Reich,
such as,

1322
01:19:10,079 --> 01:19:12,289
"Victory
in this total war

1323
01:19:12,373 --> 01:19:14,416
or the German
nation will perish."

1324
01:19:15,793 --> 01:19:17,169
On the strength
of that attitude,

1325
01:19:17,253 --> 01:19:19,755
I did
my commander duty

1326
01:19:20,756 --> 01:19:22,258
with a clear conscience

1327
01:19:23,342 --> 01:19:25,177
and a faithful heart."

1328
01:19:25,261 --> 01:19:26,470
Exactly!

1329
01:19:27,846 --> 01:19:28,847
Hmm.

1330
01:19:29,556 --> 01:19:32,017
Did you write
these things or...

1331
01:19:32,101 --> 01:19:35,271
I don't remember where,
but the words are mine.

1332
01:19:35,980 --> 01:19:37,273
So, this part
is true?

1333
01:19:37,356 --> 01:19:39,775
Yes,
I recognize the words.

1334
01:19:39,858 --> 01:19:43,320
I'd like to read again
from Rudolph Hoss' memories.

1335
01:19:43,404 --> 01:19:46,407
Oh, Captain, please.
Hoss, again?

1336
01:19:46,949 --> 01:19:49,201
"I was acquainted
with Eichmann

1337
01:19:49,285 --> 01:19:51,120
after I received orders

1338
01:19:51,787 --> 01:19:54,707
for the extermination
of Jews

1339
01:19:54,790 --> 01:19:57,293
from Reichsfuhrer Himmler.

1340
01:19:58,794 --> 01:20:00,754
He came to see me
in Auschwitz

1341
01:20:00,838 --> 01:20:04,049
to discuss the details
of the extermination process.

1342
01:20:04,717 --> 01:20:08,220
Eichmann was a lively,
active man in his thirties,

1343
01:20:08,304 --> 01:20:09,888
always bursting
with energy.

1344
01:20:10,681 --> 01:20:12,683
He was always
hatching new plans

1345
01:20:12,766 --> 01:20:15,853
and always in search
of innovations and improvement.

1346
01:20:18,147 --> 01:20:19,231
He could never rest.

1347
01:20:20,149 --> 01:20:22,318
He was obsessed
with the Jewish Question

1348
01:20:22,401 --> 01:20:26,947
and regularly gave
Himmler direct oral reports

1349
01:20:27,031 --> 01:20:29,366
about the preparation
and implementation

1350
01:20:29,450 --> 01:20:30,826
of the various actions.

1351
01:20:31,785 --> 01:20:34,705
Eichmann was obsessed
with the goal

1352
01:20:34,788 --> 01:20:36,707
of destroying
the biological foundation

1353
01:20:36,790 --> 01:20:38,667
of the Jew in the East.

1354
01:20:39,543 --> 01:20:41,795
When discussing
the extermination process,

1355
01:20:41,879 --> 01:20:44,089
he encouraged
the use of gas,

1356
01:20:44,882 --> 01:20:48,886
because to expect SS men
to shoot women and children

1357
01:20:50,012 --> 01:20:53,265
would turn them
into sadists."

1358
01:20:54,600 --> 01:20:58,187
I don't know why
you are bringing Hoss up again.

1359
01:20:58,270 --> 01:21:02,066
As I said before,
Captain, the man is a liar.

1360
01:21:03,108 --> 01:21:06,445
There are other people
who have made similar statements

1361
01:21:06,528 --> 01:21:08,405
about you, Herr Eichmann.

1362
01:21:09,656 --> 01:21:12,618
The men on trial
in Nuremberg

1363
01:21:12,701 --> 01:21:16,038
had no means
of getting together to say,

1364
01:21:16,121 --> 01:21:19,166
"Let's get together
to save our skins

1365
01:21:19,249 --> 01:21:21,251
and testify
against Eichmann."

1366
01:21:22,753 --> 01:21:25,672
Every one
of those men

1367
01:21:26,632 --> 01:21:28,175
knew what was
in store for them.

1368
01:21:29,635 --> 01:21:33,389
What Hoss said was untrue.
Totally untrue!

1369
01:21:34,556 --> 01:21:37,142
I never killed
any Jews.

1370
01:21:38,310 --> 01:21:41,855
I am guilty of assisting
with the evacuation of Jews,

1371
01:21:41,939 --> 01:21:44,858
under which
I was under orders.

1372
01:21:46,568 --> 01:21:48,320
That's what
gives me peace of mind.

1373
01:21:48,404 --> 01:21:50,989
Uh, an inner tranquilizer.

1374
01:21:52,825 --> 01:21:55,452
I never killed
any Jews.

1375
01:21:55,536 --> 01:21:58,288
And for that matter,
I never killed any non-Jews.

1376
01:21:58,956 --> 01:22:03,460
Nor did I order
the killing of Jews or non-Jews.

1377
01:22:04,837 --> 01:22:07,881
I was simply
a transportation officer.

1378
01:22:09,425 --> 01:22:11,009
All the evidence produced

1379
01:22:11,093 --> 01:22:13,971
has shown your duties
went much further.

1380
01:22:16,140 --> 01:22:18,767
I will now read further
from Stern magazine.

1381
01:22:20,018 --> 01:22:23,772
"This Eichmann was neither
depraved nor unfeeling.

1382
01:22:24,606 --> 01:22:27,317
According to his own
credible testimony,

1383
01:22:27,401 --> 01:22:28,902
he was rather sensitive,

1384
01:22:29,695 --> 01:22:33,740
and yet consciously
and with open eyes,

1385
01:22:33,824 --> 01:22:36,827
this man signed
the deportation orders,

1386
01:22:36,910 --> 01:22:39,455
which for many hundreds
of thousands, meant death.

1387
01:22:40,372 --> 01:22:42,249
He was a bureaucrat
of murder...

1388
01:22:43,083 --> 01:22:44,168
and he knew it.

1389
01:22:45,127 --> 01:22:47,421
At that time,
he had neither inhibitions

1390
01:22:47,504 --> 01:22:50,799
nor any desire
to plead orders from above.

1391
01:22:52,259 --> 01:22:55,637
He must bear
full responsibility."

1392
01:22:56,472 --> 01:22:58,265
That is utter nonsense.

1393
01:22:58,891 --> 01:23:03,312
My attitude
is that I should obey my oath.

1394
01:23:03,937 --> 01:23:07,316
That cannot be interpreted
and it cannot be changed.

1395
01:23:08,609 --> 01:23:10,652
Journalists can throw
away their oath,

1396
01:23:10,736 --> 01:23:12,279
but a soldier cannot.

1397
01:23:13,363 --> 01:23:15,574
Do you subscribe
to the notations

1398
01:23:15,657 --> 01:23:16,825
you made
in your books?

1399
01:23:17,367 --> 01:23:18,994
Yeah. |--

1400
01:23:20,579 --> 01:23:21,955
No one has the right

1401
01:23:22,498 --> 01:23:23,832
to take an interest

1402
01:23:23,916 --> 01:23:26,460
in what I write
in my private books,

1403
01:23:26,543 --> 01:23:28,545
unless
I lend them my books.

1404
01:23:28,629 --> 01:23:31,548
And I never
lent them my books.

1405
01:23:32,674 --> 01:23:35,385
Orders from above.
That's what they were.

1406
01:23:36,053 --> 01:23:40,182
I obeyed. Regardless
of what I was ordered to do,

1407
01:23:40,265 --> 01:23:41,475
I would have obeyed.

1408
01:23:42,226 --> 01:23:43,727
Certainly,
I would have obeyed.

1409
01:23:44,478 --> 01:23:46,939
I obeyed. I obeyed!

1410
01:23:54,905 --> 01:23:57,241
Here is a statement
from Kurt Becker.

1411
01:23:58,075 --> 01:23:59,785
Becker, Captain?

1412
01:23:59,868 --> 01:24:02,246
We've been
through this, please!

1413
01:24:03,413 --> 01:24:07,459
From Kurt Becker
at his hearing July 10,

1414
01:24:07,543 --> 01:24:09,211
1947,

1415
01:24:10,128 --> 01:24:14,508
about the meeting
between you two and Himmler,

1416
01:24:16,093 --> 01:24:18,804
which we previously discussed.
Um...

1417
01:24:19,721 --> 01:24:23,517
"Herr Himmler received Eichmann
for ten minutes in my presence.

1418
01:24:23,600 --> 01:24:27,104
He ordered Eichmann to stop
the shipments of Jews to Hungary

1419
01:24:27,187 --> 01:24:30,482
as we were
already over capacity.

1420
01:24:31,191 --> 01:24:32,943
Eichmann did not.

1421
01:24:33,026 --> 01:24:35,362
He did not halt
any transports

1422
01:24:35,445 --> 01:24:37,114
because he wanted
to extinguish

1423
01:24:37,197 --> 01:24:39,575
any trace
of the Jew from Germany.

1424
01:24:40,617 --> 01:24:43,954
He disobeyed
Himmler's order."

1425
01:24:45,622 --> 01:24:46,873
Becker is a liar.

1426
01:24:47,499 --> 01:24:49,084
That is pure fiction.

1427
01:24:50,335 --> 01:24:54,131
Well, what was the substance
of your conversation

1428
01:24:54,214 --> 01:24:55,632
with Himmler
on that day?

1429
01:24:55,716 --> 01:24:57,426
Oh,
I don't remember, Captain.

1430
01:24:58,510 --> 01:25:02,639
But Himmler never gave me
the order to stop the shipment.

1431
01:25:03,599 --> 01:25:05,309
Becker made this statement

1432
01:25:05,392 --> 01:25:07,686
so that he could wash
his hands in innocence.

1433
01:25:08,562 --> 01:25:11,732
He tried to come out
of the whole affair unscathed.

1434
01:25:12,816 --> 01:25:17,613
I'm surprised that he could
have even been Standartenfuhrer.

1435
01:25:18,280 --> 01:25:19,364
Very amazed.

1436
01:25:20,449 --> 01:25:22,075
I'm also amazed

1437
01:25:22,159 --> 01:25:24,911
that I could have got away
from Himmler scot-free.

1438
01:25:26,121 --> 01:25:29,458
When Himmler realized
that I had disobeyed his orders,

1439
01:25:30,208 --> 01:25:32,544
I would have been
arrested then and there,

1440
01:25:32,628 --> 01:25:33,629
on the spot,

1441
01:25:34,212 --> 01:25:35,964
and most likely shot.

1442
01:25:37,299 --> 01:25:41,094
By all accounts,
that wasn't the process

1443
01:25:41,178 --> 01:25:44,723
to discipline someone
of your... rank.

1444
01:25:46,016 --> 01:25:47,517
For lesser deeds,

1445
01:25:48,268 --> 01:25:50,270
men were heavily, heavily...

1446
01:25:52,230 --> 01:25:53,607
punished, let's say.

1447
01:25:54,941 --> 01:25:56,818
What-- what nonsense.

1448
01:25:57,611 --> 01:25:59,279
Here is the order

1449
01:26:00,322 --> 01:26:02,282
signed by Himmler himself.

1450
01:26:03,992 --> 01:26:08,163
And here is the log
of Jewish shipments,

1451
01:26:09,164 --> 01:26:10,582
after the date of order.

1452
01:26:24,388 --> 01:26:25,472
Captain.

1453
01:26:27,891 --> 01:26:28,934
Captain.

1454
01:26:30,143 --> 01:26:33,438
I was just trying to do
my duty for my country.

1455
01:26:34,564 --> 01:26:36,400
I was just trying
to be a soldier.

1456
01:26:38,276 --> 01:26:39,945
I was an ordinary man.

1457
01:26:42,030 --> 01:26:45,242
The only crime I'm guilty
of is apathy, that's all.

1458
01:26:47,619 --> 01:26:49,037
What did I do, Captain?

1459
01:26:49,663 --> 01:26:51,415
What did I do?

1460
01:26:52,999 --> 01:26:54,084
You did...

1461
01:26:55,210 --> 01:26:56,211
nothing.

1462
01:27:54,728 --> 01:27:55,854
Good job, Avner.

1463
01:27:56,563 --> 01:27:58,148
Well done.

1464
01:27:58,231 --> 01:28:00,901
I think this should set up
your career quite nicely.

1465
01:28:01,651 --> 01:28:03,987
General Sallinger
is quite happy.

1466
01:28:11,077 --> 01:28:12,162
Where are you going?

1467
01:28:16,666 --> 01:28:17,667
I've finished.