Narrator: Previously, on "The Thing About Pam"...
[gasps] Ah!
- Just give us our money, Pam. - Or we'll sue you.
What deposition?
The one for the girls' lawsuit against you.
- Hi, this is DA Askey. - I'd like the sheriff's office
to draw up a destruction of evidence order.
How do you like working for her?
- I don't work for Leah. - I work for the county.
- Mike Wood. - You working in Troy?
- The DA's office. - Nothing major.
The court finds the defendant,
Russell Scott Faria, not guilty.
So Mom's killer just gets to walk away and that's it?
Looks like it.
Well, this is what you wanted.
I can't do anything without you.
[screaming]
[sinister music]
♪
Narrator: The past is a powerful thing.
How it shapes us, changes us.
And, of course, how it can inform the future.
Hey, what's all this?
Um, it's money.
- Whose? - Mine.
From where?
Do you still have that big suitcase?
You know, the one with the tassels?
I couldn't find it.
Pam, do not do this.
I just came from the house on Berrywood.
I thought we were gonna make an offer.
We... we were gonna make things work here.
It's hot today, isn't it?
It's hot every day.
You really need to check out Berrywood.
It's gonna go fast.
See, that is the problem with Florida.
It's always hot.
I don't... I don't wanna wait till the holidays
to move to Missouri. I wanna go now.
- But we had a plan here. - Well, plans change.
I changed my whole life to move to Florida for your baseball.
We all know how that went.
Okay, but does all this have something to do
with all of that?
Well, that's just wet cash.
You always read into things.
This is about what's best for us, okay?
Okay. I just don't see what's the hurry.
I need a change, okay?
I wanna get away from all these people.
What people?
Ugh, Mrs. Fitzgerald and all of them, everybody.
Isn't Mrs. Fitzgerald the one with the gout?
I thought she already died.
Yeah, and all of a sudden,
her family's got some problem with me.
They won't even let me plan the memorial service
even though I got them an in
with the hottest funeral director in Naples.
Okay.
We don't even have a place to live up in Missouri.
We'll stay at my mom's.
She said that Sarah is not allowed in her house.
She disowned her.
That's just Mom.
Just, here, help me out.
Here.
[dryer whirring]
[sinister music]
♪
Need to return this. Didn't have a tag.
I don't know why it never had a tag.
And I don't have the receipt neither. Sorry.
We can only do store credit with no receipt. Is that okay?
Mm. I bought this for my dog.
He broke his legs. His back legs. Both of them.
- Oh. - He has a little wheelie cart.
You know those? So cute, but sad.
Now, I just wanted him to have something nice,
but it's too small.
Look, it barely fits on my wrist.
He's gained some weight. You know, because...
- Right. - I paid cash for it.
Can I have cash back?
I'm sorry, it's policy.
Well, can you talk to your manager?
Or I can?
Sure, no problem.
[indistinct whispers]
- Wait, that's Pam Hupp? - Like from the "Dateline" show?
Yeah.
Narrator: Here she was,
the once anonymous housewife and mother,
now the TV star, the talk of the town.
The famous Pam Hupp.
She killed that woman, right?
Narrator: Was Pam realizing she might not be famous,
so much as infamous?
- How you doing, Mike? - Hey.
Sorry I'm late.
No, no, I appreciate you taking the time.
- Of course. - Nate says hello, by the way.
Oh, I owe him a beer.
So I saw you in the latest "Dateline" piece.
[chuckling]
You still believe Pam Hupp was involved?
Yeah, I always have.
Unfortunately, my opinion, no matter how well supported,
doesn't change anything.
Unless, of course, you can convince
Leah Askey to reopen the case.
Yeah, I think she's rather swallow glass, to be honest.
It's the truth.
But what if I ran against her for DA?
And what if the thing to get her out
is doing exactly what you wanted?
Showing who really did it.
Pam Hupp.
What else do you know?
What else can you tell me? I want the facts to come out.
We can talk about Pam, sure.
But what else?
That's it.
That's it?
You're gonna build an entire campaign around one person?
An anti-Pam platform?
No, I'm building it around the idea
that one person hid the truth.
That I'm the guy that can find it, prosecute it,
and get real justice.
Okay.
So Pam.
Pam. Where do I begin?
And, I don't know, I just get
this weird energy and stuff, you know?
I don't know, I can't put my finger on it.
But people were looking at me weird.
I can't even make a return without getting chased out.
Everybody's treating me like I killed Betsy
'cause that's what the TV says.
Hey, Mom, could you just...?
The whole town has turned their backs on me.
I think I'm gonna cry.
Ugh. What?
- Maybe we think about moving. - What?
Whoa, whoa.
Well, it's not just you.
Travis and Sarah and I have been getting the blowback too.
You all are being a big bunch of babies.
I'm the one taking the hits here.
And you don't see me running away, do you?
And what would you have us do about Derby Road?
It's a quick flip too.
Sarah will buy it, as soon as we're done.
I wouldn't count on that, Mom.
Then we can buy up Greenleaf Street.
There's a fixer-upper hitting the market in a month.
I don't know. If you lose this insurance trial,
we're gonna need the Derby money to pay Betsy's girls.
- "If we lose." - You think I'm gonna lose?
All I'm saying is when we came back from Florida,
it was your idea.
- Yeah. - A great one.
We all got a fresh start and it worked out, right?
- Yeah. - Mm-hmm. Exactly.
Yeah.
- It's working out. - So why would we leave?
You want to stay in Florida and keep flipping, remember?
That's all's I'm saying now. Stay and flip.
Hey, I'm on your side here.
So what's the problem?
[sinister music]
♪
It's no problem.
I'm telling you, it ain't.
The coroner ruled it an accident.
But her system had 14 times
the recommended dosage of Ambien.
Now, if Shirley had tripped and fallen into the railing,
it would have been only 425 pounds of force max.
But our engineering expert tells me that it would take
at least 2,000 pounds of force to cause any damage.
You think someone kicked off the railing
to break it on purpose?
Wait, well, we don't know who did what.
But what we do know is this.
Someone left a pitcher of water on Shirley's balcony
as if she fell while watering her plants.
But it was raining that day.
And for the second time,
Pam Hupp collected money when someone close to her died.
$120,000 of Shirley's investments
and a share of her life insurance policy.
One theory is that Pam Hupp killed her friend
and then her own mother, simply for the money.
Pam was always here.
Always taking care of Shirley,
who wasn't an easy customer, let me tell you.
- So she was attentive. - That's great.
But did you find it curious
when the night before Shirley's accident,
Pam said Shirley wouldn't be down for dinner
and not to worry about breakfast the next day either?
No. Not at the time.
May I ask why?
She's just such a nice lady.
That's what I keep hearing.
I don't think she's so nice anymore though.
I'm not sure what I think about Pam.
Narrator: Pam was an avid reader of crime novels,
a fascination that would intersect
with her own reality.
[phone ringing]
Hi, it's Cathy Singer from "Dateline."
- Hey, Cat. - Good to hear from you.
How's Chicago?
Well, actually, I'm wrapping things up here in Troy.
Oh. You're in town.
- Yeah, that's why I called. - I heard about Shirley.
Yeah, I didn't kill my mom, if that's what you're asking.
The balcony did.
Well, we're doing another "Dateline," and we should talk.
Hear your side of things.
Oh, really? Another one?
Figured that'd be all wrapped up.
No, not at all.
Especially with Russ's exoneration.
So what do you say?
Can we set a time to chat?
No, thanks.
[dramatic music]
Narrator: That funny feeling
when you're the subject of a story that just won't end.
.
[humming]
Narrator: Five years since their mother's death,
Betsy's girls were still coping.
And still hadn't seen a dime
of the insurance money.
Hey, let me make you some tea instead.
You'll sleep better.
No, thanks.
Well, that looks pretty full.
Must have a lot to write about.
I just write about Mom.
Letters, poems.
- Letters? - Yeah.
Yep. Stuff I wish I said.
Sometimes, I write to Russ.
My perspective on things.
I don't send them though. It's just for me.
Oh.
Well, you better get some rest. Big day tomorrow.
[dialing, line ringing]
It's Pam. Leave a message.
Hey, Pam, it's Janet.
I know it's late, but if you could give me
a call back, we could get this figured out tonight.
There's no need to go to court tomorrow when...
Well, you know the right thing.
Just give the girls their money.
That's what you told Betsy you were gonna do.
[dramatic music]
♪
- Pam! - Pam!
- Here! - Pam!
- Over here! - Pam!
I think we're all aware this is a long shot.
The paperwork's paperwork.
But we're gonna do our best to show Pam's hand in this.
And are we gonna go up on the stand?
I'm not sure you girls testifying is a good idea.
Pam's guy will poke holes and turn sympathy against you.
They made us testify in the last trials
and now we're not allowed?
You're allowed, I just would advise against it in this case.
[dramatic music]
Sit here, Mom.
♪
Maybe he's here for us.
He kills Mom and then he wants to see us
get the money? I doubt it.
[sinister music]
♪
Here comes Pam and her creepy husband.
Don't look at them.
- I can't help it. - They're so weird.
I know.
Thanks.
Raise your right hand.
Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth so help you God?
- I do. - You may take the stand.
State your name for the record.
Pamela Marie Hupp, H-U-P-P.
And you're the defendant,
the party being sued in this lawsuit?
- Mm-hmm. - I can... I can hardly hear you.
- Did you hear the question? - I did.
Judge, I'd like to treat the witness
as hostile at this time.
You may.
You just raised your hand
and you took an oath to tell the whole truth, correct?
Yes.
The same oath you took when you testified
in the Russ Faria trial?
Yes.
You understood at that time that you're obligated
to testify truthfully, and you did, correct?
Mm-hmm.
I have a traumatic brain injury
and concussion syndrome from an accident.
Did you have any these memory problems
- during that deposition? - I didn't think I did.
I don't feel like I do when I'm talking,
but I obviously do.
Would you please read the letter in front of you?
No, I can't read that.
I need my glasses from my husband.
So you gave law enforcement incorrect information?
Yes, that is a correct statement.
Uh, there are also other statements in there
that do not say that.
They attacked me.
I don't understand what you're saying.
Detective McCarrick pressured me to open that trust.
It's on video. Mm-hmm.
I can't hear you.
$100,000 of that I put in a trust for the girls
and $50,000 of that I was trying to give
to this other friend of mine who was dying.
It was harassment.
It wasn't just them.
I changed my mind.
I can't hear you.
She was obsessed.
Brain injury, remember?
Oh, I remember.
Ms. Hupp, I see you closed the trust
for the Day sisters in December of 2013.
Also in December 2013, you deposited $134,000
into your personal checking account.
Where did $134,000...
Wait, what? Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Whoa, whoa. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
- Your honor... - Whoa, whoa, whoa!
I don't know what you're talking about.
This has nothing to do with me drawing up a trust.
I'd like the court to have the witness
answer the question.
If you don't understand the question,
- you can ask him to rephrase. - Okay, okay.
But don't volunteer testimony, ma'am,
that's not in response to the question.
That's not in response to...
It's... the trust wasn't made until after her death.
So that's got nothing to do with it.
She didn't even know I made it.
Well, if there's an objection to the question,
then your lawyers, they will make it.
Otherwise, just answer the question, okay?
You deposited $134,000 into your personal
checking account in December 2013, correct?
Yes.
That's a lot of money for one deposit
into your checking account.
Where did it come from?
What, do you think I'm poor?
My money could've come from anywhere.
Everywhere. A bunch of different places.
Have you lied to anybody else about what you were gonna do
with these life insurance proceeds?
I lie when people bug me.
And bug me and bug me.
[sinister music]
♪
I have no further questions.
He got her.
The court will stand at recess until 1:30.
I got it.
[clears throat]
- Well, I think that went well. - Yeah.
What's up with you?
Your IBS? I got pills.
No, no, no. I'm fine, I just...
I just can't believe all those awful things
they said about you.
Well, then don't.
But you said you were a liar.
- Everybody lies, Winnie. - That's the world.
Right. Yeah.
You sure you're okay?
You don't seem like yourself.
Oh, well, I'm not feeling that well.
I've got a sore throat.
Well, maybe I have something.
[sinister music]
♪
- What's that? - It's a lozenge.
You got a sore throat, you need a lozenge.
[clears throat]
Okay?
Hey.
I should've just said I'm sorry to him.
No, don't.
They won't even look at me.
Well, I would've slammed the door in his face.
I know, I just thought that maybe he wanted to talk.
Like maybe there was some part of him
that wanted to see us win.
I can't talk to them here anyway.
We'd have to go through Jill
because we don't want any he said, she said.
It's fine, you know?
Those girls said all they need to say on the stand.
That's that.
Maybe we should just go.
Nah.
I came to see Pam lose.
.
- So is that it? - Are we gonna get to talk?
I don't know.
That's it. It's time for closing statements.
Really? Are you...
Are you sure?
We... we can still testify.
Pam just said she opened the trust back up,
right in front of our faces.
It's a can of worms.
Trust me. It's cleaner this way.
Okay.
- If you think so. - Yeah.
To be honest, Mrs. Hupp,
you didn't do yourself any favors up there.
Well, it was ridiculousness.
What was I supposed to say?
- Not that. - Counselor.
Excuse me.
Your Honor, if Mrs. Faria's intent
was to pass this money on to her children,
the best way to do that would've been to name them.
But neither one of her children are named on
any of the three policies that she had.
We've heard from not only Pam Hupp, but multiple people
who've said that Betsy had concerns
as to whether her children
were even reliable enough to handle the money.
And I'm not about to argue for Pam's credibility.
She's not a credible witness.
But that's not the issue here.
If you want to know Betsy's true intent...
This is her intent.
Everything else is just he said, she said.
I'll ask you this one more time, Mr. Evers.
Where is the evidence
that indicates what Betsy intended to do with the money?
The evidence is that it was intended for the girls
to get the money when they're older.
It has been four years.
Well, I can't just pull something out of thin air.
It has to be based in evidence.
[dramatic music]
♪
She admitted that she lied
and she still gets to keep our money?
I do like it any more than you do,
but you know that your mother
did not always do everything by the book.
It's just one of those things.
Yeah, she trusted people!
So did I even when I shouldn't have.
Hey, you made a good effort.
I guess.
I still didn't get a voice in anything.
- I told you it'd all work out. - I never doubted you.
- Are they literally skipping? - So what now?
Now that nobody's gonna take our money,
what do you say? A new car?
One of those SUVs with the TVs on the seat, like an airplane?
Oh, and we need new carpet.
What money?
We already got a buyer for Derby.
I say we get our next flip.
You really want to hang around here?
Oh, things will go back to normal.
There she is.
I think that's the "Dateline" crew.
Say hi to Cathy!
- Mariah? - What's up?
Mariah. Hey, you got a letter.
For me, here?
Yeah, I don't know, but there it is.
Listen, I'm gonna need you to do another tub of roll-ups
before dinner, please.
Hello? Mariah? Okay?
What, are you getting mail here now?
It's from Russ.
[solemn music]
♪
What?
Well, even for Russ, that's pretty harsh.
But I don't get it.
We're halfway through escrow.
And these people just back out?
- They just got cold feet. - It happens.
But, like, they loved the house.
Mark got rid of that family of racoons.
We built a whole new deck.
It's beautiful. They love it.
So I don't get why they'd just back out.
I don't... I don't know. It...
It really could be one of a million reasons.
- Mm-hmm. - Don't lie to me, Sally.
[tense music]
♪
It was because of you, okay?
They canceled once they heard who the seller was.
Mm.
[laughing]
Mm-hmm.
Fix it.
Request for destruction of evidence?
Tina. Hey.
Hey, Tina.
Mrs. Hupp, as I told you on the phone several times,
Ms. Askey is unavailable, and she just left for the day.
She just left?
[dramatic music]
♪
Leah!
Hey.
- How's it going, Pam? - Not good.
Keith Morrison and Cathy stirring stuff up.
Everyone thinks I'm some killer who steals money from orphans.
And, like, who cares because it's all lies?
But now it's screwing stuff up for my business.
Orphans?
You mean Lily and Mariah Day?
- Yeah. - Yeah.
Those girls.
Ugh. They did this to me, you know.
If they hadn't sued, then nobody would be pissed
that I'm taking what's already mine.
Well, winning the civil suit didn't exactly help your image.
Well, as the judge said,
that money went to the person Betsy intended.
And somehow I've got the bad reputation here?
I mean, how does that happen?
Because it's hard to look like a victim
when you keep winning, you understand?
Oh, right, I see.
That's what's going on here. I'm winning.
- I'm sure it'll flitter away. - You know how small towns are.
I don't want it to flitter, okay?
I want you... I want you to make it go away.
What am I supposed to do?
If you have a problem,
you should file a complaint with the police.
File what?
A restraining order against the whole town?
I don't know what to tell you, Pam.
I've got problems, too, you know.
My reelection. And this isn't great for me.
So maybe...
Right, your job.
So important.
Yeah.
I get it. I get it.
It's the most important thing in the world, huh?
See? You get it.
[sinister music]
♪
.
She just can't help.
For all I've done for her,
Leah Askey could give a squirt of a piss.
If she just put me on the stand,
we'd have won that retrial,
and Russ's ass would still be locked up.
Now the whole world is gonna bug me.
Because Keith and Cathy are making
another "Dateline" about it.
Smearing me all over again.
You know she wouldn't have a job if weren't for me.
I'm the best thing that's ever happened to "Dateline."
Well, Mom, we should just move already.
I mean, like, with all the stuff going on,
- it's not worth it. - You've been talking to him?
No.
- Or not. - Or, no, or whatever. I...
- Hi. I'm Mariah. - I'll be your serv...
My goodness, Mary-Ann.
How nice to see you.
I didn't know you worked here.
Mariah.
Travis and I will have the...
Burger en frites.
- Great. - For you?
Oh, he's not hungry.
Not feeling himself tonight.
In fact, can we get those burgers to go?
Yeah, maybe Leah's right.
And I should just cut off the people
who don't support me.
Long list.
I cannot believe she just showed up here.
I mean, the bitch steals everything from us
and, what, still not enough?
But I didn't spit in it.
- No, no, no, no, no, no, no. - No, no, no. No. No.
- Pam. - Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Fast. Good service.
I like it. Keep the change.
Hey. Hey. Are you okay?
Mariah?
It's okay.
You're fine.
[dramatic music]
♪
What's going on?
Are you okay?
Pam wrote Russ' letter.
- Wait, wait. - Where are you going?
♪
Hey, Pam!
Oh, we forget something?
For the first time since my mom was killed,
I'm done being mad.
I'm done giving you control.
There's nothing left for you to take.
I'm done.
I win.
Feel better?
Yeah.
- Well, nice to see ya. - We'll be back.
Narrator: If so many people bug her and bug her
and bug her,
how can Pam possibly keep up?
[sinister music]
♪
One thing about Pam,
she always manages to find time for other people.
Leah!
Hey.
My daughter's baby shoes. Her first little pair.
- Her first pair? - You don't want to save those?
No. I still have my son's.
- Well, thanks, Pam. - I'm sure you have a busy day.
You always do.
Hi.
Pam Hupp. Vote for Askey.
Pam Hupp. Vote Askey.
- Hmm. - Hmm.
Well, luck with the campaign.
You know you've got my vote.
See you around.
Soon, I hope.
Yeah.
You live over on Kenton Street, right?
Gorgeous place.
[sinister music]
♪
.
[upbeat dance music playing]
♪ Shake your body, let's go ♪
Class is full today.
Yeah, right. Let's Zumba!
Class is full.
Oh.
It's full.
Hmm. Come on, Minnie, let's go.
I know it was you with the dead squirrel.
What? What dead squirrel?
We all talked about it.
No one could've done it but you.
Okay, Pam, I think it's time you left.
Oh, you do?
[laughing]
Okay.
Minnie, we should go.
You're sick, in no condition for working out.
Come on.
No, I'm good.
[tense music]
♪
Boo!
[all gasping]
[chuckling]
[dramatic music]
♪
Pamela Hupp took Betsy's life away.
But killers can't get away with it on their own.
They need help.
Help from a prosecutor protects them.
It's time for the District Attorney's office
- to stand for justice again. - Stop Leah Askey.
Vote for a true champion of justice.
Vote Mike Wood for Lincoln County District Attorney.
[line ringing]
- Hey, Pam. - Hey.
See that funny new commercial, political thing?
Something about how I killed Betsy
and you let me go free?
Yeah, I saw it, it's Mike Wood.
His whole campaign is about us.
Mm-hmm.
Seems I'm not the only one with the bad reputation.
Think it'll just flitter away?
No, I don't think it'll flitter away.
If Mike Wood takes over my job, he will reopen the Betsy case,
and he's gonna go after you as his main suspect.
[tense music]
- Why would I care? - I didn't do anything.
Pam, Mike Wood winning means we both lose.
No. You lose. I'll be fine.
[sinister music]
♪
California, it's so far.
Well, far is kind of the point.
I need a fresh start.
Somewhere where I can just be me.
You can't do that here?
Here is where Mom got murdered.
Russ won't even speak to me.
And Pam wins every time.
I just need a break.
I get it.
Oh, just don't get hooked on marijuana out there, okay?
[laughs] Okay, I won't.
You need car snacks.
I'll be right back.
I got you something.
You need a fresh one, right? For all your new adventures.
Thanks.
So you're really going, huh?
You could come too.
But, like, who's just gonna watch Grandma?
I'll miss you.
Yeah. I'm gonna miss you too.
- Watch out for Pam, okay? - [scoffs] Yeah, okay.
[coughing]
[sinister music]
♪
Pam, what are you doing here?
- You're sick. - I'm taking care of you.
You know, I was thinking what a great neighbor you've been.
Gee, I wonder if Minnie would miss me if I moved.
- Of course... - Of course I would miss you.
- [chuckles] - See, you lie too, Minnie.
You think I killed Bushy Tail.
Why would you miss me?
Oh.
So... so you...
You're gonna move, you think?
I was thinking about it.
But then I realized running away from obstacles
is not how you deal with them.
♪
Leah. Cathy.
Mariah. Joel.
They're just all things in my way.
When there's stuff in your way,
what you got to do...
Is get rid of it.
[sinister music]
♪ Ooh, got my eyes on you
♪ Got my eyes on you
♪ Ooh, got my eyes on you
♪
♪ Ooh, got my eyes on you
♪ Got my eyes on you
♪ Ooh, got my eyes on you
♪