1 00:00:00,435 --> 00:00:03,786 [uneasy music] 2 00:00:04,787 --> 00:00:07,877 I am writing a book about a serial killer. 3 00:00:08,008 --> 00:00:09,835 [news reporter] Seventy-four-year-old 4 00:00:09,966 --> 00:00:12,055 Samuel Little was sentenced today for killing three women 5 00:00:12,186 --> 00:00:14,797 in South Los Angeles in the 1980s. 6 00:00:14,927 --> 00:00:17,104 But it always nagged at me because I knew 7 00:00:17,191 --> 00:00:19,149 he was good for more murders. 8 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:21,760 Sam Little got away with this for so long 9 00:00:21,891 --> 00:00:24,285 because most of his victims 10 00:00:24,415 --> 00:00:26,417 were in marginalized populations: 11 00:00:26,548 --> 00:00:29,464 women of color, drug addicts, prostitutes. 12 00:00:29,594 --> 00:00:31,857 [dramatic music] 13 00:00:31,988 --> 00:00:33,859 [Scott] Once she started visiting Sam in prison, 14 00:00:33,990 --> 00:00:36,210 that really awoke a lot 15 00:00:36,340 --> 00:00:38,995 of different kind of demons in her. 16 00:00:39,126 --> 00:00:41,911 [Jillian] Sam starts confessing to me 17 00:00:41,998 --> 00:00:44,218 all of these cold cases, 18 00:00:44,348 --> 00:00:46,089 all of these murders 19 00:00:46,176 --> 00:00:49,962 that had been long unsolved 20 00:00:50,093 --> 00:00:52,748 throughout the United States. 21 00:00:52,878 --> 00:00:55,533 Then it was like the floodgates opened. 22 00:00:56,186 --> 00:00:57,579 [whispering] Oh, Jesus. 23 00:00:57,666 --> 00:01:00,669 [normally] How many victims are there? 24 00:01:00,799 --> 00:01:03,585 [projector whirring] 25 00:01:03,672 --> 00:01:06,588 [uneasy music] 26 00:01:17,773 --> 00:01:18,730 [Jillian] Mm-hmm. 27 00:01:25,607 --> 00:01:26,564 [Jillian] Mm-hmm. 28 00:01:30,351 --> 00:01:31,308 [Jillian] Right. 29 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:43,451 [Jillian] Uh, why did she deserve it? 30 00:01:55,463 --> 00:01:58,422 ♪ 31 00:01:58,553 --> 00:02:00,337 [Jillian] When I started writing a book 32 00:02:00,424 --> 00:02:03,775 about Samuel Little, 33 00:02:03,906 --> 00:02:06,126 I-I had no idea 34 00:02:06,256 --> 00:02:07,518 of the scope of it. 35 00:02:13,655 --> 00:02:14,569 [Jillian] Mm-hmm. 36 00:02:27,234 --> 00:02:28,713 [laughs] 37 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,239 He is a vicious... 38 00:02:32,369 --> 00:02:33,283 killer. 39 00:02:33,457 --> 00:02:34,850 ♪ 40 00:02:34,980 --> 00:02:36,547 And I thought, 41 00:02:36,678 --> 00:02:37,940 "I have to keep going with this." 42 00:02:38,070 --> 00:02:39,333 Like, I'm gonna pursue this. 43 00:02:39,420 --> 00:02:42,249 It's about these victims. 44 00:02:42,379 --> 00:02:44,729 I wanna know how he got away with this for so long. 45 00:02:44,903 --> 00:02:47,036 ♪ 46 00:02:47,123 --> 00:02:49,995 And I wanna understand 47 00:02:50,082 --> 00:02:53,173 violence against women in this culture 48 00:02:53,260 --> 00:02:57,177 and why it is so summarily dismissed. 49 00:02:57,351 --> 00:03:00,223 ♪ 50 00:03:03,748 --> 00:03:05,489 [news reporter] The FBI calls Samuel Little 51 00:03:05,620 --> 00:03:07,709 America's most prolific serial killer. 52 00:03:07,839 --> 00:03:10,886 [Sam] If you want me to tell my secrets to you, 53 00:03:11,016 --> 00:03:13,018 come down here and look me in my eye 54 00:03:13,149 --> 00:03:14,977 while I do. 55 00:03:15,107 --> 00:03:17,849 [Jillian] My deal with the devil is, 56 00:03:17,980 --> 00:03:22,071 "You will not die alone if you tell me the truth." 57 00:03:22,202 --> 00:03:23,333 [Sam] I'm not gonna admit to those girls. 58 00:03:23,420 --> 00:03:24,856 [Jillian] I don't believe you. 59 00:03:24,943 --> 00:03:27,598 So you tell me the truth right now. 60 00:03:27,685 --> 00:03:29,600 [news reporter] Little strangled 93 victims 61 00:03:29,731 --> 00:03:32,821 between 1970 and 2005. 62 00:03:32,951 --> 00:03:34,562 [Jillian] He was tried and got off 63 00:03:34,692 --> 00:03:36,216 again and again and again. 64 00:03:36,346 --> 00:03:37,739 [news reporter] Investigators believe 65 00:03:37,826 --> 00:03:39,262 that Samuel Little killed more people 66 00:03:39,393 --> 00:03:41,395 than serial killers Ted Bundy, 67 00:03:41,525 --> 00:03:44,702 John Wayne Gacy, and Jeffrey Dahmer combined. 68 00:03:45,616 --> 00:03:46,487 [Jillian] If you weren't locked up, 69 00:03:46,617 --> 00:03:49,098 I'd probably be dead by now. 70 00:03:49,229 --> 00:03:51,143 [Sam] You're right. 71 00:03:54,712 --> 00:03:56,366 [operator] You have a prepaid call from... 72 00:03:56,497 --> 00:03:58,368 [Sam] This is Sam. 73 00:03:58,499 --> 00:04:00,588 [operator] ...an inmate at the California State Prison, 74 00:04:00,718 --> 00:04:01,980 Los Angeles County, 75 00:04:02,111 --> 00:04:03,634 Lancaster, California. 76 00:04:05,462 --> 00:04:06,855 Mr. Sam. 77 00:04:10,032 --> 00:04:12,208 [Jillian] I started visiting Sam Little in prison 78 00:04:12,339 --> 00:04:15,211 in August of 2018. 79 00:04:15,342 --> 00:04:18,867 Now not only do I visit him every other weekend. 80 00:04:18,997 --> 00:04:20,956 I also talk to him almost daily. 81 00:04:22,479 --> 00:04:24,786 And I record 82 00:04:24,916 --> 00:04:27,179 all my phone conversations with him. 83 00:04:27,310 --> 00:04:30,400 Are you ready for some questions? 84 00:04:41,019 --> 00:04:43,631 [Jillian] You haven't asked. I'll trade you. 85 00:04:43,718 --> 00:04:46,024 You give me one secret, I'll give you one. 86 00:04:50,986 --> 00:04:53,945 [Jillian] I have access to this serial killer, 87 00:04:54,076 --> 00:04:57,166 and I hope that I could have something to offer 88 00:04:57,297 --> 00:04:59,560 to law enforcement, 89 00:04:59,690 --> 00:05:01,605 but, you know, you don't walk in 90 00:05:01,736 --> 00:05:04,565 and start talking to a psychopath 91 00:05:04,652 --> 00:05:05,914 and just be like, "So tell me about how you killed 'em." 92 00:05:06,088 --> 00:05:07,524 ♪ 93 00:05:07,655 --> 00:05:09,700 You ask a question, 94 00:05:09,831 --> 00:05:12,616 and then you listen really carefully, 95 00:05:12,703 --> 00:05:15,140 and if you listen hard enough, 96 00:05:15,227 --> 00:05:19,275 you can hear what they need you to be. 97 00:05:19,406 --> 00:05:20,972 So tell me the truth. 98 00:05:21,103 --> 00:05:22,278 [Sam] If I was-- 99 00:05:26,151 --> 00:05:29,807 No, Mr. Sam, you know I don't-I don't judge you. 100 00:05:29,938 --> 00:05:31,113 I'm just here to listen. 101 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:37,380 I think of it as, like, 102 00:05:37,511 --> 00:05:40,209 I'm his mommy; I'm his daughter. 103 00:05:48,478 --> 00:05:52,308 And I'm his ultimate victim. 104 00:05:57,531 --> 00:06:01,143 He's an actor. He's a psychopath. 105 00:06:01,317 --> 00:06:03,754 ♪ 106 00:06:03,885 --> 00:06:07,584 Every... interaction he has 107 00:06:07,715 --> 00:06:08,890 is transactional... 108 00:06:08,977 --> 00:06:11,632 ♪ 109 00:06:11,762 --> 00:06:14,635 ...and he is two steps ahead of you 110 00:06:14,765 --> 00:06:15,766 at any move. 111 00:06:29,606 --> 00:06:34,394 I realize that it is a really strange relationship 112 00:06:34,481 --> 00:06:38,267 for most people to hear, for them to understand, 113 00:06:38,398 --> 00:06:41,313 but I'm in this privileged position 114 00:06:41,401 --> 00:06:44,969 that Sam Little wants to answer my questions. 115 00:06:45,100 --> 00:06:47,102 It serves him, 116 00:06:47,189 --> 00:06:49,800 and it feels good to him. 117 00:06:49,887 --> 00:06:53,717 So then how can I use that? 118 00:06:53,804 --> 00:06:56,111 ♪ 119 00:06:56,241 --> 00:06:59,419 If I'm gonna investigate this, then what are the questions 120 00:06:59,549 --> 00:07:01,638 I'm gonna ask about? 121 00:07:01,769 --> 00:07:05,207 Like, "Why did he get away with this for so long, 122 00:07:05,337 --> 00:07:06,556 and how?" 123 00:07:08,689 --> 00:07:10,299 I need to look at all the times 124 00:07:10,430 --> 00:07:12,475 he actually was caught 125 00:07:12,606 --> 00:07:15,130 and find out what went wrong. 126 00:07:17,698 --> 00:07:20,657 [Jillian] Can you walk me through what happened 127 00:07:20,788 --> 00:07:22,746 with the Patricia Mount case? 128 00:07:22,833 --> 00:07:24,748 Do you remember picking her up? 129 00:07:26,446 --> 00:07:28,230 [Jillian] I want the truth. 130 00:07:42,897 --> 00:07:44,812 [eerie music] 131 00:07:44,942 --> 00:07:47,771 [Jillian] Sam crawled the city's underbelly, 132 00:07:47,902 --> 00:07:50,426 drifting from bar to bar, 133 00:07:50,557 --> 00:07:53,690 looking for weed and women, 134 00:07:53,821 --> 00:07:55,213 preferably both. 135 00:07:55,387 --> 00:07:56,737 ♪ 136 00:08:06,268 --> 00:08:09,663 ♪ 137 00:08:10,620 --> 00:08:12,753 [Kenny] On September the 12th, 1982, 138 00:08:12,883 --> 00:08:14,929 we were notified that, uh, 139 00:08:15,059 --> 00:08:17,932 there had been a discovery of a female body 140 00:08:18,062 --> 00:08:20,151 in the middle of absolutely nowhere 141 00:08:20,282 --> 00:08:22,502 in a hayfield. 142 00:08:22,632 --> 00:08:25,766 [pensive music] 143 00:08:25,853 --> 00:08:29,465 Found the body laying approximately in this area. 144 00:08:31,554 --> 00:08:33,687 It was the body of a late 20s, 145 00:08:33,817 --> 00:08:35,515 early 30s white female. 146 00:08:37,865 --> 00:08:40,128 She was nude. She was laying on her back. 147 00:08:40,302 --> 00:08:42,391 ♪ 148 00:08:42,522 --> 00:08:45,350 She had defecation, you know, smeared on her body 149 00:08:45,481 --> 00:08:47,483 and on the clothes. 150 00:08:47,614 --> 00:08:50,791 She had obvious bruising on the neck area. 151 00:08:50,921 --> 00:08:52,836 You can almost see the handprints. 152 00:08:52,923 --> 00:08:55,143 She was strangled to death. 153 00:08:55,317 --> 00:08:58,233 ♪ 154 00:08:59,713 --> 00:09:01,889 I wonder if the original case file 155 00:09:02,019 --> 00:09:04,369 has got my notes still in it. 156 00:09:06,023 --> 00:09:07,764 There you go. That's her. 157 00:09:07,895 --> 00:09:09,505 That's the victim, Tricia Mount. 158 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:12,552 ♪ 159 00:09:12,682 --> 00:09:15,511 Several witnesses that knew Patricia Mount 160 00:09:15,642 --> 00:09:18,645 had seen her at Willie Mae's tavern 161 00:09:18,775 --> 00:09:20,690 the night before, 162 00:09:20,821 --> 00:09:24,607 speaking to a Black male. 163 00:09:24,694 --> 00:09:27,567 They described him as around 40s, 164 00:09:27,697 --> 00:09:31,179 pretty good-sized fella, big hands. 165 00:09:31,353 --> 00:09:33,181 ♪ 166 00:09:33,311 --> 00:09:35,792 Couple of the witnesses, uh, actually saw Patricia 167 00:09:35,879 --> 00:09:38,316 get in his car. 168 00:09:38,447 --> 00:09:40,188 It was a small station wagon, 169 00:09:40,275 --> 00:09:41,755 tan or brown in color. 170 00:09:41,929 --> 00:09:44,018 ♪ 171 00:09:44,148 --> 00:09:46,020 [Greg] She was 26 years old. 172 00:09:46,107 --> 00:09:47,717 She had a very low IQ, 173 00:09:47,804 --> 00:09:50,111 an IQ of around 40, from her paperwork. 174 00:09:50,241 --> 00:09:51,721 Basically little girl 175 00:09:51,852 --> 00:09:54,158 because of her mental capabilities 176 00:09:54,245 --> 00:09:56,117 just thrown aside. 177 00:09:56,247 --> 00:09:57,945 You know, there's no way 178 00:09:58,075 --> 00:09:59,163 that should happen. 179 00:09:59,337 --> 00:10:01,557 ♪ 180 00:10:01,688 --> 00:10:04,604 [Jillian] Sam was good at finding the weak link. 181 00:10:06,736 --> 00:10:08,651 He could look at a room 182 00:10:08,782 --> 00:10:12,089 and see that somebody was lonely 183 00:10:12,220 --> 00:10:14,570 or see that somebody was hungry 184 00:10:14,701 --> 00:10:16,746 or see that somebody 185 00:10:16,877 --> 00:10:19,619 really needed a fix, 186 00:10:19,749 --> 00:10:22,578 and that's where he would go. 187 00:10:26,713 --> 00:10:27,714 [Jillian] Mm-hmm. 188 00:10:34,677 --> 00:10:35,896 [eerie metallic squealing] 189 00:10:51,085 --> 00:10:53,261 ♪ 190 00:11:04,489 --> 00:11:05,577 [Jillian] Right. 191 00:11:09,930 --> 00:11:13,020 ♪ 192 00:11:13,498 --> 00:11:14,717 We're working the case, 193 00:11:14,848 --> 00:11:17,372 but we're basically at a dead end. 194 00:11:17,459 --> 00:11:19,853 We knew he wasn't from-from the Gainesville area. 195 00:11:19,983 --> 00:11:21,898 None of the witnesses ever saw him before. 196 00:11:22,029 --> 00:11:24,248 We put out a BOLO, 197 00:11:24,379 --> 00:11:26,729 which is "be on the lookout for," 198 00:11:26,860 --> 00:11:29,514 to southeastern United States 199 00:11:29,645 --> 00:11:32,169 with the description of a suspect 200 00:11:32,300 --> 00:11:34,041 and-and a vehicle fitting the description 201 00:11:34,171 --> 00:11:35,259 we were looking for. 202 00:11:37,305 --> 00:11:41,178 [Jillian] After Sam killed Patricia Mount, 203 00:11:41,309 --> 00:11:46,183 he left Florida and went to Pascagoula, Mississippi, 204 00:11:46,270 --> 00:11:48,969 where he then killed Melinda LaPree. 205 00:11:49,099 --> 00:11:51,319 [desolate music] 206 00:11:51,449 --> 00:11:53,408 A few months later, he was arrested there 207 00:11:53,538 --> 00:11:55,715 in Mississippi 208 00:11:55,845 --> 00:11:57,629 for shoplifting. 209 00:11:57,804 --> 00:11:59,066 ♪ 210 00:11:59,153 --> 00:12:01,285 They were able to connect 211 00:12:01,416 --> 00:12:03,635 the brown Pinto station wagon 212 00:12:03,723 --> 00:12:05,507 that he was driving 213 00:12:05,637 --> 00:12:09,641 with a report about a murder in Florida, 214 00:12:09,772 --> 00:12:14,081 and law enforcement got in touch with each other. 215 00:12:14,168 --> 00:12:16,387 [Greg] In early December, we get notified 216 00:12:16,518 --> 00:12:19,303 that Pascagoula, Mississippi, has a person in custody 217 00:12:19,434 --> 00:12:21,088 for the murder down there 218 00:12:21,218 --> 00:12:23,003 that matches the description of our murder, 219 00:12:23,133 --> 00:12:25,745 and he matched the physical description 220 00:12:25,832 --> 00:12:28,138 of our suspect. 221 00:12:28,225 --> 00:12:31,272 [Kenny] And his name was Sam McDowell, 222 00:12:31,402 --> 00:12:34,666 also identified as Sam Little. 223 00:12:35,929 --> 00:12:38,670 Several of the witness positively identified Sam 224 00:12:38,801 --> 00:12:40,411 from a photographic lineup. 225 00:12:42,413 --> 00:12:44,633 So we, uh, obtained a-a warrant for his arrest 226 00:12:44,764 --> 00:12:46,548 for the murder of Pat Mount. 227 00:12:46,722 --> 00:12:49,290 ♪ 228 00:13:04,609 --> 00:13:05,480 [Jillian] Mm-hmm. 229 00:13:17,448 --> 00:13:20,364 [Kenny] We interviewed Sam McDowell. 230 00:13:20,495 --> 00:13:24,629 You could almost sense the evil in the room. 231 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:26,457 We showed him a picture of the victim, 232 00:13:26,588 --> 00:13:27,937 Patricia Mount. 233 00:13:29,504 --> 00:13:31,506 He had a-a slight reaction. 234 00:13:31,636 --> 00:13:34,030 He knew who we were talking about, 235 00:13:34,161 --> 00:13:38,730 but, uh, he adamantly denied ever seeing her, 236 00:13:38,861 --> 00:13:41,429 and never was she in his car. 237 00:13:54,703 --> 00:13:57,619 [dramatic music] 238 00:14:01,362 --> 00:14:02,885 [Greg] We knew that we were-- 239 00:14:03,016 --> 00:14:05,496 basically had a circumstantial case. 240 00:14:05,627 --> 00:14:07,063 The only evidence we had 241 00:14:07,194 --> 00:14:09,544 was three witnesses 242 00:14:09,674 --> 00:14:11,198 from Willie Mae's bar 243 00:14:11,328 --> 00:14:13,504 identifying him out of a lineup. 244 00:14:13,635 --> 00:14:15,028 We were concerned. 245 00:14:15,158 --> 00:14:17,334 We were hoping we'd get more evidence. 246 00:14:17,421 --> 00:14:19,902 We found out then Sam Little 247 00:14:19,989 --> 00:14:22,644 was arrested for shoplifting in Mississippi. 248 00:14:22,774 --> 00:14:24,733 He had two individuals with him. 249 00:14:24,864 --> 00:14:28,389 [Kenny] One, a teenage boy, Danny Beckless, 250 00:14:28,519 --> 00:14:29,738 and an older Black woman 251 00:14:29,869 --> 00:14:33,046 by the name of Orelia Dorsey. 252 00:14:33,176 --> 00:14:35,048 [Jillian] Orelia Jean Dorsey 253 00:14:35,178 --> 00:14:39,313 was 27 years older than Sam. 254 00:14:39,443 --> 00:14:44,318 He met her in a jailhouse in Cleveland. 255 00:14:44,448 --> 00:14:47,538 She was a convicted shoplifter. 256 00:14:47,625 --> 00:14:49,453 She was his girlfriend, 257 00:14:49,584 --> 00:14:53,240 and he traveled the country with her. 258 00:14:53,370 --> 00:14:55,416 He called her Jean. 259 00:15:08,385 --> 00:15:10,039 [Jillian] Mm-hmm. 260 00:15:10,170 --> 00:15:11,258 Wow. 261 00:15:24,227 --> 00:15:27,535 Wow, it sounds like she really-she really took 262 00:15:27,665 --> 00:15:29,450 good care of you. 263 00:15:30,059 --> 00:15:31,974 Unfortunately, we couldn't sit down 264 00:15:32,061 --> 00:15:33,541 and interview her 265 00:15:33,671 --> 00:15:36,152 because Orelia was no longer there. 266 00:15:37,284 --> 00:15:40,765 But we subsequently interviewed Danny Beckless. 267 00:15:42,115 --> 00:15:45,509 He was a young teenager, 268 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,643 approximately 16 years old. 269 00:15:48,773 --> 00:15:51,080 Danny indicated to us that he had been traveling 270 00:15:51,211 --> 00:15:54,518 with, uh, Sam McDowell and Orelia Dorsey 271 00:15:54,649 --> 00:15:57,086 for a period of time 272 00:15:57,217 --> 00:15:58,348 and they had been staying 273 00:15:58,479 --> 00:16:00,263 in the-in the Gainesville area. 274 00:16:05,573 --> 00:16:06,966 [Kenny] We pressed him if he could remember 275 00:16:07,096 --> 00:16:08,489 the night of the homicide 276 00:16:08,619 --> 00:16:11,187 in Gainesville months earlier 277 00:16:11,318 --> 00:16:12,275 of Patricia Mount. 278 00:16:12,406 --> 00:16:15,322 [disquieting music] 279 00:16:15,452 --> 00:16:17,150 [Greg] He said he thought Sam left the motel 280 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:18,934 around seven o'clock that night. 281 00:16:19,108 --> 00:16:21,110 ♪ 282 00:16:26,463 --> 00:16:28,726 [Kenny] The next morning, Danny went out and found 283 00:16:28,813 --> 00:16:30,250 brown matter, fecal matter, 284 00:16:30,380 --> 00:16:32,034 on the back seat of the car. 285 00:16:32,121 --> 00:16:34,645 ♪ 286 00:16:34,776 --> 00:16:36,560 [Greg] And he said the car smelled. 287 00:16:43,785 --> 00:16:46,005 Orelia had wiped it up and cleaned it 288 00:16:46,092 --> 00:16:47,397 the best she could. 289 00:16:49,051 --> 00:16:51,967 [Jillian] The police suspected that Sam, 290 00:16:52,098 --> 00:16:54,274 he was killing at night, 291 00:16:54,404 --> 00:16:55,753 and Orelia, 292 00:16:55,884 --> 00:16:58,321 she would clean his car out 293 00:16:58,408 --> 00:17:01,237 in the morning, and they would move on. 294 00:17:01,368 --> 00:17:04,588 They would not stay anywhere 295 00:17:04,719 --> 00:17:06,199 for more than three days. 296 00:17:06,373 --> 00:17:08,027 ♪ 297 00:17:21,649 --> 00:17:25,218 Danny also would talk about, uh, Sam bragging to him 298 00:17:25,348 --> 00:17:27,481 about picking prostitutes up, and then he said, 299 00:17:27,611 --> 00:17:29,352 you know, he would get rid of them. 300 00:17:29,439 --> 00:17:31,876 ♪ 301 00:17:32,007 --> 00:17:33,226 [Greg] Sam did mention one time 302 00:17:33,356 --> 00:17:35,402 that he had hurt ladies. 303 00:17:35,532 --> 00:17:36,490 He had told Beckless that. 304 00:17:36,664 --> 00:17:39,884 ♪ 305 00:17:39,971 --> 00:17:42,365 Greg and I decided that we probably had 306 00:17:42,496 --> 00:17:45,629 a serious serial killer on our hands. 307 00:17:45,803 --> 00:17:48,023 ♪ 308 00:17:48,154 --> 00:17:50,069 Going into trial, 309 00:17:50,156 --> 00:17:51,244 we felt pretty good at that point. 310 00:17:51,418 --> 00:17:53,289 ♪ 311 00:17:53,420 --> 00:17:56,466 [Greg] Then we start trying to locate Danny Beckless, 312 00:17:56,553 --> 00:17:59,600 and... we can't find him. 313 00:17:59,774 --> 00:18:01,080 ♪ 314 00:18:01,210 --> 00:18:04,344 Danny was gone. 315 00:18:04,474 --> 00:18:06,302 [Kenny] This was a blow to the state's case 316 00:18:06,433 --> 00:18:08,087 because without Beckless there, 317 00:18:08,217 --> 00:18:12,569 we couldn't use anything that Beckless, uh, had told us 318 00:18:12,700 --> 00:18:14,615 because it'd be considered hearsay 319 00:18:14,745 --> 00:18:16,530 and the judge would not allow it. 320 00:18:16,704 --> 00:18:19,010 ♪ 321 00:18:31,588 --> 00:18:36,463 He never for a second thought he would be convicted. 322 00:18:37,464 --> 00:18:40,815 Samuel Little's victims were ignored 323 00:18:40,945 --> 00:18:43,078 for all of these years 324 00:18:43,209 --> 00:18:45,254 in large part because 325 00:18:45,385 --> 00:18:47,561 they were in marginalized populations. 326 00:18:47,735 --> 00:18:49,954 ♪ 327 00:18:50,041 --> 00:18:52,827 [Kenny] Pat Mount had a lot of trouble in her life. 328 00:18:52,957 --> 00:18:55,960 She was mentally retarded. She was an alcoholic. 329 00:18:56,047 --> 00:18:58,224 She hung around the bars, 330 00:18:58,311 --> 00:18:59,703 was known to get drunk 331 00:18:59,834 --> 00:19:02,315 and leave with different men. 332 00:19:02,445 --> 00:19:05,405 All this was brought up during the trial. 333 00:19:05,535 --> 00:19:08,016 And I-I felt a lot of people, 334 00:19:08,147 --> 00:19:09,670 including the jury, felt that she was 335 00:19:09,757 --> 00:19:11,411 less of a person 336 00:19:11,541 --> 00:19:14,327 rather than being a victim of a homicide, 337 00:19:14,457 --> 00:19:17,852 that she was almost asking for it. 338 00:19:17,982 --> 00:19:19,767 I feel personally 339 00:19:19,897 --> 00:19:21,682 that, uh, if she'd have been 340 00:19:21,812 --> 00:19:24,337 a University of Florida student, 341 00:19:24,424 --> 00:19:27,209 a lot different trial would've been conducted. 342 00:19:27,383 --> 00:19:29,429 ♪ 343 00:19:31,170 --> 00:19:32,432 [Greg] We disseminated the information. 344 00:19:32,519 --> 00:19:33,737 We felt he was a serial killer, 345 00:19:33,868 --> 00:19:35,870 and we put it out nationwide. 346 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,786 That's all we could do is warn people. 347 00:19:39,743 --> 00:19:41,832 You throw a life away, basically, 348 00:19:41,919 --> 00:19:43,747 a life, basically, of a child, 349 00:19:43,878 --> 00:19:46,272 even though she was 26 years old. 350 00:19:46,402 --> 00:19:48,535 And you feel sorry for someone, 351 00:19:48,622 --> 00:19:51,190 that you couldn't do them justice to help them. 352 00:19:51,277 --> 00:19:53,235 ♪ 353 00:19:53,366 --> 00:19:54,932 I just felt like somehow, 354 00:19:55,063 --> 00:19:58,022 we should've been able to keep him in jail. 355 00:19:59,241 --> 00:20:01,983 [Jillian] There was such a miscarriage of justice. 356 00:20:02,113 --> 00:20:06,074 They had him again and again. 357 00:20:06,161 --> 00:20:10,034 When I read his rap sheet, I was shocked. 358 00:20:10,165 --> 00:20:12,123 He served far less time 359 00:20:12,254 --> 00:20:15,475 for rape, assault, and murder 360 00:20:15,562 --> 00:20:19,130 than he did for his first breaking and entry charge 361 00:20:19,218 --> 00:20:21,307 when he was 16 years old. 362 00:20:38,672 --> 00:20:41,414 [melancholy music] 363 00:20:41,588 --> 00:20:44,504 ♪ 364 00:20:46,027 --> 00:20:48,377 He went to the Ohio State Reformatory 365 00:20:48,508 --> 00:20:50,074 at the age of 16. 366 00:20:52,860 --> 00:20:53,774 [Jillian] Yeah. 367 00:21:07,004 --> 00:21:08,528 And that was where he learned to box. 368 00:21:22,585 --> 00:21:24,674 [Jillian] I knew that I wanted to write 369 00:21:24,805 --> 00:21:27,242 a more extensive piece 370 00:21:27,373 --> 00:21:30,071 about Sam Little, and, you know, 371 00:21:30,158 --> 00:21:35,119 a big piece of his identity is boxing. 372 00:21:35,206 --> 00:21:38,601 I felt that in order to understand him, 373 00:21:38,732 --> 00:21:41,865 I would have to go and just give it a try. 374 00:21:41,996 --> 00:21:44,128 [trainer] Seven, eight. 375 00:21:44,259 --> 00:21:47,523 [Jillian] And boxing has given me a perspective 376 00:21:47,654 --> 00:21:51,048 on the Sam Little story in many ways. 377 00:21:51,135 --> 00:21:53,529 [uneasy music] 378 00:21:53,660 --> 00:21:55,357 What were the nicknames they called you? 379 00:22:10,024 --> 00:22:11,199 [bell dings] 380 00:22:11,330 --> 00:22:13,419 [people clamoring] 381 00:22:13,549 --> 00:22:17,248 [Jillian] Sam was the middleweight champion 382 00:22:17,379 --> 00:22:19,555 of the Ohio State Reformatory, 383 00:22:19,642 --> 00:22:24,038 and boxing culture in the prisons in the '60s 384 00:22:24,168 --> 00:22:28,390 was actually a funnel into professional boxing. 385 00:22:29,260 --> 00:22:31,828 So Sam Little is 24 386 00:22:31,915 --> 00:22:33,917 when he gets out of the reformatory. 387 00:22:34,048 --> 00:22:36,442 [desolate music] 388 00:22:38,444 --> 00:22:40,924 He goes and fights an amateur fight 389 00:22:41,055 --> 00:22:43,536 in Cleveland. 390 00:22:43,666 --> 00:22:45,581 He has all these people in his corner, 391 00:22:45,712 --> 00:22:47,235 saying hang back, 392 00:22:47,366 --> 00:22:49,324 except he's a KO fighter. 393 00:22:50,891 --> 00:22:54,547 He is a powerhouse, right, 394 00:22:54,677 --> 00:22:56,592 and they're saying hang back, hang back, 395 00:22:56,723 --> 00:22:59,029 and he got his lip split, 396 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,728 and he lost by points. 397 00:23:01,902 --> 00:23:03,599 ♪ 398 00:23:03,730 --> 00:23:08,125 He put his boxing gloves in the trash 399 00:23:08,256 --> 00:23:11,346 and said, "I'm never fighting again." 400 00:23:11,477 --> 00:23:14,001 He took that rage somewhere else. 401 00:23:14,175 --> 00:23:16,264 ♪ 402 00:23:16,351 --> 00:23:19,223 Why don't you tell me why you stopped boxing? 403 00:23:26,883 --> 00:23:29,059 [Jillian] I mean, I feel like that's really interesting, 404 00:23:29,190 --> 00:23:30,757 Sam, for you to say that, 405 00:23:30,887 --> 00:23:33,629 because you are actually a killer. 406 00:23:34,891 --> 00:23:36,719 But you have killed people. 407 00:23:36,850 --> 00:23:38,765 So you did have a killer instinct. 408 00:23:38,895 --> 00:23:40,114 [Sam] I-I-- 409 00:23:54,911 --> 00:23:55,738 [Jillian] Right. 410 00:23:57,436 --> 00:24:00,221 I was not calculating 411 00:24:00,308 --> 00:24:02,615 in the kind of emotional toll 412 00:24:02,745 --> 00:24:05,226 talking to the psychopath would take. 413 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:07,054 ♪ 414 00:24:07,184 --> 00:24:09,796 I'm pretty angry. 415 00:24:09,926 --> 00:24:11,885 I mean, I don't, like, function 416 00:24:12,015 --> 00:24:14,540 in the world as an angry person, 417 00:24:14,670 --> 00:24:16,498 but if I think hard enough 418 00:24:16,585 --> 00:24:19,283 about the things that I've experienced 419 00:24:19,414 --> 00:24:23,331 and also the things that I'm researching 420 00:24:23,462 --> 00:24:27,161 with the Sam Little story and these victims, 421 00:24:27,291 --> 00:24:30,207 I can get pretty angry. 422 00:24:31,208 --> 00:24:33,776 I'm somebody who has experienced 423 00:24:33,907 --> 00:24:34,951 domestic abuse. 424 00:24:35,082 --> 00:24:38,215 I am somebody who has done 425 00:24:38,346 --> 00:24:39,782 sex work in my life. 426 00:24:39,913 --> 00:24:41,784 I'm someone who has certainly done 427 00:24:41,915 --> 00:24:43,482 plenty of drugs. 428 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,922 I have a post-traumatic stress disorder diagnosis. 429 00:24:50,053 --> 00:24:52,447 Uh, boxing allows me to lean into the pain. 430 00:24:52,621 --> 00:24:55,494 ♪ 431 00:24:59,454 --> 00:25:02,022 There are many ways 432 00:25:02,152 --> 00:25:05,155 of dealing with trauma: 433 00:25:05,286 --> 00:25:07,331 by running away, 434 00:25:07,418 --> 00:25:10,204 by being addicted, 435 00:25:10,291 --> 00:25:12,336 and... 436 00:25:12,467 --> 00:25:15,383 I think that that is 437 00:25:15,514 --> 00:25:19,866 a large part of how Sam 438 00:25:19,953 --> 00:25:22,651 chose his victims. 439 00:25:22,782 --> 00:25:24,827 He was a predator. 440 00:25:24,914 --> 00:25:26,350 He could walk in a room 441 00:25:26,481 --> 00:25:29,049 and see who was the easiest prey. 442 00:25:29,223 --> 00:25:31,530 ♪ 443 00:25:43,716 --> 00:25:44,804 [Jillian] Mm-hmm. 444 00:25:50,592 --> 00:25:51,985 [Jillian] They weren't all prostitutes. 445 00:26:14,181 --> 00:26:15,617 [Laurie] You know, you don't think 446 00:26:15,748 --> 00:26:16,792 things like that are gonna happen to you 447 00:26:16,879 --> 00:26:18,185 'cause I wasn't that person. 448 00:26:18,315 --> 00:26:20,143 I just tried some risky stuff. 449 00:26:22,624 --> 00:26:25,235 My name is Laurie Barros. 450 00:26:25,366 --> 00:26:27,760 I'm one of the few surviving victims 451 00:26:27,890 --> 00:26:29,979 of Samuel McDowell Little. 452 00:26:31,285 --> 00:26:34,418 ♪ 453 00:26:34,549 --> 00:26:36,420 It's written all over you somehow or another, 454 00:26:36,551 --> 00:26:38,248 how you carry yourself, 455 00:26:38,379 --> 00:26:39,510 that you don't care about yourself, 456 00:26:39,641 --> 00:26:40,599 you don't respect yourself, 457 00:26:40,729 --> 00:26:42,862 you have no confidence. 458 00:26:42,992 --> 00:26:45,604 And in--that was true. I had none. 459 00:26:45,734 --> 00:26:48,650 [suspenseful music] 460 00:26:48,781 --> 00:26:51,000 [Jillian] Remember, pick the ones 461 00:26:51,087 --> 00:26:53,220 no one will notice are gone. 462 00:26:53,350 --> 00:26:56,484 Remember, don't leave them alive. 463 00:26:56,615 --> 00:26:59,661 Remember, don't get caught. 464 00:26:59,792 --> 00:27:02,446 Remember, if the above fails, 465 00:27:02,577 --> 00:27:03,970 get a lawyer. 466 00:27:04,100 --> 00:27:07,669 Remember, deny, deny, deny. 467 00:27:07,756 --> 00:27:10,629 ♪ 468 00:27:22,641 --> 00:27:24,686 [Jillian] That was Laurie and Tonya? 469 00:27:24,817 --> 00:27:27,297 That was the two women in San Diego? 470 00:27:27,428 --> 00:27:28,647 That case? 471 00:27:30,344 --> 00:27:32,694 ♪ 472 00:27:32,781 --> 00:27:36,132 [siren wailing] 473 00:27:36,263 --> 00:27:37,873 [Laurie] I was going through a divorce 474 00:27:38,004 --> 00:27:40,702 and, you know, from an abusive husband, 475 00:27:40,833 --> 00:27:42,095 wasn't caring very much 476 00:27:42,182 --> 00:27:44,880 about how I was handling my life, 477 00:27:44,967 --> 00:27:48,014 and that night, I got dressed up. 478 00:27:48,144 --> 00:27:49,711 I was bored. I was lonesome. 479 00:27:49,842 --> 00:27:51,844 And my friend 480 00:27:51,974 --> 00:27:54,934 had a meth dealer that lived downtown. 481 00:27:55,064 --> 00:27:58,067 I thought I would go see if he was home, 482 00:27:58,198 --> 00:28:00,504 do a few lines, right? 483 00:28:00,635 --> 00:28:03,594 [ominous music] 484 00:28:03,682 --> 00:28:06,162 So I had gotten out of my car, 485 00:28:06,293 --> 00:28:08,121 but I don't think I made it to the end of the block. 486 00:28:08,295 --> 00:28:11,211 ♪ 487 00:28:13,169 --> 00:28:15,868 I remember getting the feeling-- 488 00:28:15,998 --> 00:28:18,174 you know how you get a feeling somebody's following you? 489 00:28:18,348 --> 00:28:21,351 ♪ 490 00:28:21,482 --> 00:28:23,745 I instantly just froze up 491 00:28:23,876 --> 00:28:26,530 and got really scared. 492 00:28:26,661 --> 00:28:28,619 I thought, "Don't act like you're scared. 493 00:28:28,750 --> 00:28:30,491 Don't act like you're scared." 494 00:28:32,623 --> 00:28:35,278 He was-he was behind me now, 495 00:28:35,365 --> 00:28:37,759 kind of got me in a chokehold, 496 00:28:37,890 --> 00:28:40,544 shoved me into his car. 497 00:28:40,675 --> 00:28:43,243 It seemed like he drove around aimlessly 498 00:28:43,373 --> 00:28:45,114 for a little bit, 499 00:28:45,245 --> 00:28:48,248 and driving up this dirt road, 500 00:28:48,378 --> 00:28:51,991 it was pitch-black, just emptiness, 501 00:28:52,121 --> 00:28:53,601 and I remember he pulled up there 502 00:28:53,732 --> 00:28:56,386 and turned the car off. 503 00:28:56,517 --> 00:28:59,650 I just assumed, "I'm gonna-I'm gonna get raped. 504 00:28:59,738 --> 00:29:01,391 Prepare yourself." 505 00:29:02,828 --> 00:29:06,179 And... 506 00:29:06,309 --> 00:29:09,182 he... 507 00:29:09,312 --> 00:29:12,098 turned around and pretty much took me by the neck 508 00:29:12,228 --> 00:29:14,970 and pushed me in the back seat, 509 00:29:15,101 --> 00:29:16,885 right over the seat. 510 00:29:17,059 --> 00:29:18,844 ♪ 511 00:29:18,931 --> 00:29:23,326 He--like this. He had his f-- 512 00:29:23,457 --> 00:29:25,764 just pressing down. 513 00:29:25,851 --> 00:29:27,548 And my--his hands are around my neck. 514 00:29:27,678 --> 00:29:29,811 His thumbs are on those hyoid bones, 515 00:29:29,942 --> 00:29:31,552 and he kept pressing harder. 516 00:29:31,726 --> 00:29:33,597 ♪ 517 00:29:33,728 --> 00:29:35,556 He had told me to swallow, 518 00:29:35,643 --> 00:29:37,514 says, "I love it when you swallow." 519 00:29:39,081 --> 00:29:41,997 And I went unconscious. 520 00:29:42,171 --> 00:29:44,130 ♪ 521 00:29:55,271 --> 00:29:57,230 [sighs] 522 00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:59,710 And I remember coming back to consciousness. 523 00:29:59,841 --> 00:30:02,801 I know he thought I was dead, 524 00:30:02,931 --> 00:30:05,760 and I knew that because I played dead. 525 00:30:05,847 --> 00:30:08,981 ♪ 526 00:30:09,068 --> 00:30:11,810 I remember kind of talking to God 527 00:30:11,940 --> 00:30:16,031 and saying, "I'm sorry. I did this to myself." 528 00:30:16,162 --> 00:30:18,033 I was so ashamed. 529 00:30:22,081 --> 00:30:24,170 [Jillian] As survivors of violence, 530 00:30:24,257 --> 00:30:26,128 one of the most difficult things 531 00:30:26,259 --> 00:30:29,697 is that we often blame ourselves. 532 00:30:29,828 --> 00:30:33,222 We're working with a set of cultural assumptions 533 00:30:33,353 --> 00:30:36,182 that cause us 534 00:30:36,312 --> 00:30:38,706 to internalize. 535 00:30:38,793 --> 00:30:41,796 ♪ 536 00:30:41,927 --> 00:30:44,668 [pensive music] 537 00:30:44,843 --> 00:30:48,194 ♪ 538 00:30:48,977 --> 00:30:52,502 I grew up with a kind of insatiable curiosity 539 00:30:52,633 --> 00:30:56,245 that has gotten me into a lot of trouble. 540 00:30:56,376 --> 00:30:58,508 But I don't think that any of that 541 00:30:58,639 --> 00:31:02,599 really translated into some of my more... 542 00:31:02,730 --> 00:31:04,863 self-destructive behaviors 543 00:31:04,950 --> 00:31:08,214 until I had an experience at summer camp 544 00:31:08,344 --> 00:31:11,130 when I was 12 years old, 545 00:31:11,217 --> 00:31:15,786 when I had a relationship with a much older counselor. 546 00:31:15,917 --> 00:31:17,353 Him. 547 00:31:17,484 --> 00:31:21,488 And he was 21. 548 00:31:21,618 --> 00:31:24,186 We got caught, and he got fired, 549 00:31:24,273 --> 00:31:27,363 and I was publicly humiliated 550 00:31:27,494 --> 00:31:30,584 and then went from being, you know, 551 00:31:30,714 --> 00:31:33,761 this awkward... 552 00:31:33,848 --> 00:31:38,113 preteen, really, um, 553 00:31:38,244 --> 00:31:42,335 you know, to being the town slut, basically. 554 00:31:42,509 --> 00:31:44,337 ♪ 555 00:31:44,467 --> 00:31:46,817 You know? I mean, what-what would you do 556 00:31:46,948 --> 00:31:48,819 if a 21-year-old 557 00:31:48,907 --> 00:31:50,691 touched your 12-year-old daughter? 558 00:31:50,865 --> 00:31:53,389 ♪ 559 00:31:53,476 --> 00:31:55,304 I don't know what I would do, 560 00:31:55,435 --> 00:31:58,177 but, uh, I-I... 561 00:31:58,307 --> 00:32:00,527 w-wouldn't do what my parents did, 562 00:32:00,657 --> 00:32:03,443 and I wouldn't do what the camp directors did, 563 00:32:03,573 --> 00:32:05,227 which was, you know, blame me. 564 00:32:05,314 --> 00:32:07,186 ♪ 565 00:32:07,316 --> 00:32:09,318 I was publicly humiliated. 566 00:32:09,449 --> 00:32:12,191 You know, the general... 567 00:32:12,321 --> 00:32:15,977 opinion was that I seduced him 568 00:32:16,108 --> 00:32:20,677 and, uh, you know, caused him to lose his job, 569 00:32:20,808 --> 00:32:24,855 and, uh--and my whole life changed after that. 570 00:32:25,030 --> 00:32:27,728 ♪ 571 00:32:27,815 --> 00:32:31,253 I started to internalize 572 00:32:31,384 --> 00:32:33,560 those kind of ideas about myself. 573 00:32:33,690 --> 00:32:34,953 You know, I was bad, I was wrong, 574 00:32:35,083 --> 00:32:36,650 I was shameful, 575 00:32:36,780 --> 00:32:38,652 and, uh--you know, 576 00:32:38,739 --> 00:32:43,352 and I started to act out in self-destructive ways. 577 00:32:43,483 --> 00:32:47,095 I was anorexic. I was a cutter. 578 00:32:47,226 --> 00:32:51,578 I still carry those scars physically. 579 00:32:53,667 --> 00:32:56,148 It was a formative experience, 580 00:32:56,278 --> 00:32:58,585 changed my life. 581 00:32:58,715 --> 00:33:00,500 The experience of not being believed, 582 00:33:00,630 --> 00:33:03,503 being blamed, it changed 583 00:33:03,633 --> 00:33:07,986 my idea about myself, 584 00:33:08,116 --> 00:33:12,816 and, uh, I can look at that experience 585 00:33:12,947 --> 00:33:14,601 and see that that was where 586 00:33:14,731 --> 00:33:16,733 my more self-destructive behaviors 587 00:33:16,864 --> 00:33:18,866 started to manifest. 588 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,956 ♪ 589 00:33:24,741 --> 00:33:28,745 I feel connected with these victims 590 00:33:28,832 --> 00:33:32,923 because it could've been me any night of the week 591 00:33:33,011 --> 00:33:35,230 for a very long time in my life. 592 00:33:38,973 --> 00:33:43,325 [Laurie] It's probably been about 25, 26 years 593 00:33:43,412 --> 00:33:47,503 since I've been back here to this site. 594 00:33:47,634 --> 00:33:50,245 [eerie music] 595 00:33:50,332 --> 00:33:53,770 When Sam Little was pushing me out of the car, 596 00:33:53,901 --> 00:33:56,338 I know he thought I was dead. 597 00:33:56,469 --> 00:33:58,949 [exhales heavily] 598 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:03,215 I was laying in dirt, but there was trash around me. 599 00:34:03,345 --> 00:34:05,217 I was just kind of sprawled out on my back, 600 00:34:05,347 --> 00:34:07,480 and I didn't move a muscle. 601 00:34:08,959 --> 00:34:11,049 The idea that I'm laying in trash 602 00:34:11,179 --> 00:34:12,963 has never left me, 603 00:34:13,094 --> 00:34:15,314 that image and just kind of... 604 00:34:15,444 --> 00:34:18,056 such a metaphor for how I've kind of felt 605 00:34:18,186 --> 00:34:19,753 so much of my life. 606 00:34:28,588 --> 00:34:29,545 [Jillian] Mm-hmm. 607 00:34:33,767 --> 00:34:35,421 [Jillian] Yeah, 'cause you were. 608 00:34:47,476 --> 00:34:48,956 [Jillian] But you thought she was dead. 609 00:34:50,175 --> 00:34:53,134 [desolate music] 610 00:34:53,221 --> 00:34:56,224 ♪ 611 00:34:57,007 --> 00:34:58,400 [Wayne] We're going into Logan Heights now, 612 00:34:58,531 --> 00:35:01,925 and, you know, back in 1984, when I joined 613 00:35:02,056 --> 00:35:03,884 the San Diego Police Department, 614 00:35:04,014 --> 00:35:06,800 this was kind of the start of the gang area. 615 00:35:06,930 --> 00:35:09,063 Thirty-Second Street, 616 00:35:09,194 --> 00:35:10,673 all the girls who were prostituting 617 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:12,545 would be along the street here. 618 00:35:14,155 --> 00:35:16,505 They're just trying to get by. 619 00:35:16,679 --> 00:35:18,507 ♪ 620 00:35:18,638 --> 00:35:20,466 My name's Wayne Spees, 621 00:35:20,596 --> 00:35:22,120 and I'm a detective sergeant 622 00:35:22,250 --> 00:35:24,296 retired from San Diego Police Department. 623 00:35:25,732 --> 00:35:28,126 [tense music] 624 00:35:28,256 --> 00:35:30,911 On October 25th, I was working night watch. 625 00:35:31,085 --> 00:35:33,392 ♪ 626 00:35:33,522 --> 00:35:36,699 I was probably a week in in my phase training, 627 00:35:36,786 --> 00:35:39,876 and my training officer was Lou Tamani. 628 00:35:40,007 --> 00:35:41,530 In lineup that day, 629 00:35:41,661 --> 00:35:44,403 Lou shows me this flyer. 630 00:35:44,533 --> 00:35:46,796 We call them a BOLO, a "be on the lookout." 631 00:35:46,927 --> 00:35:48,320 So this is the BOLO 632 00:35:48,450 --> 00:35:50,104 that we received in lineup that night. 633 00:35:50,235 --> 00:35:52,193 It says that this guy 634 00:35:52,324 --> 00:35:53,890 had attacked a woman, 635 00:35:54,021 --> 00:35:57,198 that he drove her to a-a location, 636 00:35:57,285 --> 00:35:59,157 and raped her and strangled her, 637 00:35:59,287 --> 00:36:01,028 and then he threw her out of the car, 638 00:36:01,159 --> 00:36:02,943 thinking probably she was dead, 639 00:36:03,073 --> 00:36:05,946 and, uh--and then, you know, left her there. 640 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:07,687 ♪ 641 00:36:07,817 --> 00:36:10,559 The victim is 22-year-old Laurie Barros. 642 00:36:12,300 --> 00:36:13,562 She gave a really good description 643 00:36:13,693 --> 00:36:16,391 of the car and of our suspect: 644 00:36:16,522 --> 00:36:17,827 a Black male, 645 00:36:17,958 --> 00:36:20,961 40 to 45 years old, six foot one, 646 00:36:21,091 --> 00:36:24,399 230 to 240 pounds, 647 00:36:24,530 --> 00:36:27,359 He had a gold pinkie ring with two diamonds. 648 00:36:27,489 --> 00:36:29,012 The vehicle he was driving 649 00:36:29,143 --> 00:36:32,625 was a black two-door large American-made car. 650 00:36:32,755 --> 00:36:35,932 It had three foam dice hanging from the rearview mirror. 651 00:36:36,106 --> 00:36:39,066 ♪ 652 00:36:39,153 --> 00:36:41,024 [engine turning over] 653 00:36:44,941 --> 00:36:47,248 And now we're out a month later, 654 00:36:47,379 --> 00:36:48,641 patrolling the-the area. 655 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:51,383 That night, 656 00:36:51,470 --> 00:36:53,254 just before five in the morning, 657 00:36:53,341 --> 00:36:55,561 the sun hasn't come up yet. 658 00:36:55,691 --> 00:36:58,085 Radio slows down, and... 659 00:36:58,216 --> 00:36:59,739 my partner Lou's telling me 660 00:36:59,869 --> 00:37:03,264 about this area where this woman was attacked, 661 00:37:03,395 --> 00:37:06,354 and Lou says to take the right turn off of 36th. 662 00:37:08,356 --> 00:37:10,576 It's a dead-end street, and then it goes 663 00:37:10,706 --> 00:37:13,143 into a, uh, dirt lot 664 00:37:13,231 --> 00:37:15,320 with just these piles of trash. 665 00:37:15,494 --> 00:37:18,801 ♪ 666 00:37:19,498 --> 00:37:21,064 And we want to sneak up on anybody 667 00:37:21,195 --> 00:37:22,762 so we don't wanna alert them with our lights on, 668 00:37:22,892 --> 00:37:23,850 so we turn our lights out. 669 00:37:24,024 --> 00:37:27,375 ♪ 670 00:37:27,984 --> 00:37:29,769 We can see, you know, the outline 671 00:37:29,899 --> 00:37:32,250 of-of a car up in front of us. 672 00:37:32,337 --> 00:37:33,903 ♪ 673 00:37:34,034 --> 00:37:36,079 Lou said, "Okay, closer, closer, closer," 674 00:37:36,166 --> 00:37:38,299 and then he said, "When I say so, 675 00:37:38,386 --> 00:37:39,953 "turn the spotlights on 676 00:37:40,083 --> 00:37:41,737 and turn the headlights on, high beams." 677 00:37:41,911 --> 00:37:43,826 ♪ 678 00:37:43,957 --> 00:37:46,394 And, uh, as we're pulling up, he tells me. 679 00:37:46,525 --> 00:37:48,527 He says, "All right, light them up." 680 00:37:48,701 --> 00:37:51,704 ♪ 681 00:37:51,834 --> 00:37:53,096 And that's when we can see, 682 00:37:53,183 --> 00:37:54,533 you know, the-the car. 683 00:37:56,491 --> 00:37:59,625 We see it's the car that matches this description. 684 00:37:59,755 --> 00:38:01,975 It's a large black American-made car. 685 00:38:02,105 --> 00:38:03,672 It's a T-bird. 686 00:38:03,803 --> 00:38:06,588 And we see movement in the back seat, 687 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:08,721 and we see a head, you know, pop up, 688 00:38:08,851 --> 00:38:11,463 and then the door opens on the passenger side, 689 00:38:11,593 --> 00:38:12,899 and he jumps out of the car. 690 00:38:13,073 --> 00:38:15,989 ♪ 691 00:38:20,559 --> 00:38:23,562 He gets out, and he looks directly, uh, at us, 692 00:38:23,692 --> 00:38:26,652 and I notice he's-he's pulling his pants up. 693 00:38:26,782 --> 00:38:30,046 He's zipping up his pants. 694 00:38:30,133 --> 00:38:31,961 So I--in a very firm voice, I say, 695 00:38:32,092 --> 00:38:33,833 "Get over here. I need to talk to you." 696 00:38:33,963 --> 00:38:35,704 As he's approaching me, I have my light, 697 00:38:35,835 --> 00:38:37,315 my flashlight, on him, 698 00:38:37,445 --> 00:38:39,142 and as I put the light on his face, 699 00:38:39,273 --> 00:38:41,362 I can see the scratches on his throat, 700 00:38:41,493 --> 00:38:43,146 and they're fresh; they're-they're bleeding. 701 00:38:43,277 --> 00:38:44,583 You know, and he has a-a clump 702 00:38:44,713 --> 00:38:47,281 of, like, mucus-y blood on his shirt. 703 00:38:47,412 --> 00:38:50,240 And then he looks down at my gun, 704 00:38:50,371 --> 00:38:51,720 and I just told him; I said, 705 00:38:51,851 --> 00:38:54,462 you know, "Don't do anything stupid." 706 00:38:54,549 --> 00:38:57,335 He identified himself to me as Samuel McDowell. 707 00:38:57,422 --> 00:38:59,989 ♪ 708 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:01,513 So I put him in the back of the car. 709 00:39:01,643 --> 00:39:02,688 He's handcuffed. He's not going anywhere. 710 00:39:02,818 --> 00:39:03,993 We got him. 711 00:39:04,124 --> 00:39:05,647 And now I make my way up, 712 00:39:05,778 --> 00:39:07,649 uh, to the back seat of the T-bird. 713 00:39:07,823 --> 00:39:09,216 ♪ 714 00:39:09,347 --> 00:39:11,914 When I... got up to the car, 715 00:39:12,045 --> 00:39:14,961 I was on the passenger side, 716 00:39:15,091 --> 00:39:17,529 and I can see a woman back there, 717 00:39:17,616 --> 00:39:19,052 and she's naked, 718 00:39:19,182 --> 00:39:21,359 and she's shoved down behind the driver's seat 719 00:39:21,489 --> 00:39:22,882 on the floor, 720 00:39:23,012 --> 00:39:24,753 and her hips and her-and her legs 721 00:39:24,884 --> 00:39:27,408 are-are up on the seat, spread. 722 00:39:27,539 --> 00:39:29,671 She had, you know, a lot of redness, 723 00:39:29,758 --> 00:39:32,326 um, and bruising around her-her neck. 724 00:39:32,457 --> 00:39:34,067 There was blood coming from her nose 725 00:39:34,197 --> 00:39:37,418 and from her mouth, like she'd been punched. 726 00:39:37,505 --> 00:39:39,072 Her eyes were rolled back in her head, 727 00:39:39,202 --> 00:39:41,901 and it wasn't till the-- she started gurgling 728 00:39:42,031 --> 00:39:44,469 that I realized that she's still alive. 729 00:39:44,599 --> 00:39:47,254 [indistinct police radio chatter] 730 00:39:47,385 --> 00:39:51,432 And Lou said, "You're safe. I'm a police officer." 731 00:39:51,563 --> 00:39:53,086 And then that's when she said, 732 00:39:53,173 --> 00:39:55,393 you know, "He raped me. He raped me." 733 00:39:55,523 --> 00:39:57,090 [Jillian] To-that was Tonya, 734 00:39:57,220 --> 00:39:58,831 when you got caught in the act? 735 00:40:10,059 --> 00:40:10,886 [Jillian] Mm-hmm. 736 00:40:19,460 --> 00:40:22,768 [dramatic music] 737 00:40:23,595 --> 00:40:24,422 [Wayne] The victim was being treated 738 00:40:24,552 --> 00:40:26,685 in the hospital. 739 00:40:26,815 --> 00:40:29,470 We learned her name was Tonya Jackson. 740 00:40:29,601 --> 00:40:31,341 She says she met Samuel McDowell 741 00:40:31,472 --> 00:40:33,822 in a bar downtown, 742 00:40:33,953 --> 00:40:37,304 and he offered her money for sex, and she agreed, 743 00:40:37,391 --> 00:40:39,611 and then, uh, he drove her to that location 744 00:40:39,741 --> 00:40:42,265 where she was attacked. 745 00:40:42,352 --> 00:40:44,833 Now he's in the back seat, strangling this woman. 746 00:40:45,007 --> 00:40:46,574 ♪ 747 00:40:46,705 --> 00:40:49,055 She was moments away, uh, from death. 748 00:40:49,185 --> 00:40:51,274 No doubt in my mind that, you know, 749 00:40:51,405 --> 00:40:53,712 he would've killed her. 750 00:40:53,842 --> 00:40:55,801 So the charges at that point 751 00:40:55,888 --> 00:40:58,107 were the kidnap, 752 00:40:58,194 --> 00:40:59,544 the rape, 753 00:40:59,631 --> 00:41:01,459 and then the attempted murder. 754 00:41:18,127 --> 00:41:19,433 He said, "Yeah, I'll talk. 755 00:41:19,564 --> 00:41:20,347 I'll tell you exactly what happened." 756 00:41:20,434 --> 00:41:22,218 You know, to me, he says, 757 00:41:22,349 --> 00:41:24,133 "That-that doctor's exam's 758 00:41:24,220 --> 00:41:26,614 not gonna show any rape," 759 00:41:26,745 --> 00:41:28,137 and he said, "The only thing that's gonna show 760 00:41:28,224 --> 00:41:30,923 is where my hands were around her neck." 761 00:41:31,010 --> 00:41:33,403 And, uh, I remember thinking to myself, 762 00:41:33,491 --> 00:41:37,625 "Wow, that's a pretty incriminating, uh, statement." 763 00:41:37,756 --> 00:41:38,974 I took my notepad out, 764 00:41:39,105 --> 00:41:40,541 and I put quotation marks, you know, 765 00:41:40,672 --> 00:41:41,977 and I wrote that down. 766 00:41:42,108 --> 00:41:43,805 And then he said, 767 00:41:43,892 --> 00:41:45,285 "I just kicked the shit out of her." 768 00:41:45,415 --> 00:41:47,243 Uh, "That bitch deserved it." 769 00:41:47,374 --> 00:41:48,549 He goes, "I should've killed that whore." 770 00:42:02,650 --> 00:42:05,348 ♪ 771 00:42:05,479 --> 00:42:08,438 [Wayne] So once we get him down to the station, 772 00:42:08,526 --> 00:42:11,137 we hand him off to the sex crimes detective 773 00:42:11,224 --> 00:42:14,314 who handled the first case, Laurie Barros. 774 00:42:14,444 --> 00:42:16,534 He then brings Laurie down 775 00:42:16,621 --> 00:42:20,538 and is going to have her identify, if she can, 776 00:42:20,668 --> 00:42:22,148 Sam Little in a lineup. 777 00:42:22,278 --> 00:42:24,367 [uneasy music] 778 00:42:24,454 --> 00:42:27,153 [door creaks] 779 00:42:27,327 --> 00:42:29,416 ♪ 780 00:42:29,547 --> 00:42:31,331 [Laurie] And I picked him out in a matter of seconds. 781 00:42:31,505 --> 00:42:33,028 ♪ 782 00:42:33,159 --> 00:42:35,335 And just to let him know that I was on this side 783 00:42:35,465 --> 00:42:37,598 of the-the glass... 784 00:42:37,772 --> 00:42:40,775 ♪ 785 00:42:40,906 --> 00:42:42,298 ...I made him repeat the words 786 00:42:42,429 --> 00:42:45,345 that I knew would probably... 787 00:42:45,475 --> 00:42:49,044 make him a little anxious, which was, 788 00:42:49,131 --> 00:42:51,960 "Swallow for me. I love it when you swallow." 789 00:42:52,091 --> 00:42:53,179 Made him say that... 790 00:42:53,353 --> 00:42:56,312 ♪ 791 00:42:56,443 --> 00:43:01,143 ...'cause I was looking for him to-to-to be unnerved by it. 792 00:43:01,230 --> 00:43:04,625 And... I fell to my knees 793 00:43:04,756 --> 00:43:06,975 and just broke, 794 00:43:07,106 --> 00:43:08,760 just kind of crumbled. 795 00:43:08,890 --> 00:43:10,457 Um, I knew that was him. 796 00:43:10,631 --> 00:43:12,807 ♪ 797 00:43:12,938 --> 00:43:14,853 [Wayne] So now we know we have him 798 00:43:14,940 --> 00:43:17,333 for two cases. 799 00:43:17,464 --> 00:43:21,033 Samuel McDowell was charged with both the attacks 800 00:43:21,163 --> 00:43:23,688 on Laurie Barros and Tonya Jackson. 801 00:43:25,603 --> 00:43:27,735 It's what we call a slam dunk. 802 00:43:27,866 --> 00:43:30,042 I mean, you caught the man in the act. 803 00:43:30,216 --> 00:43:32,610 ♪ 804 00:43:32,697 --> 00:43:34,263 So in my mind, 805 00:43:34,394 --> 00:43:35,961 this guy's going away for a long time, 806 00:43:36,091 --> 00:43:38,137 and we got a really dangerous predator 807 00:43:38,267 --> 00:43:39,573 off the street. 808 00:43:41,401 --> 00:43:44,360 [Gary] Samuel McDowell, serial murderer, rapist, 809 00:43:44,447 --> 00:43:47,537 torturer, strangler. 810 00:43:47,668 --> 00:43:49,931 Let's see what we got here. 811 00:43:50,018 --> 00:43:53,282 These are notes I haven't seen 812 00:43:53,413 --> 00:43:55,589 in decades... 813 00:43:55,720 --> 00:43:57,156 on this case. 814 00:43:57,286 --> 00:43:58,679 I'm Gary Rempel. 815 00:43:58,810 --> 00:43:59,724 I'm a retired district attorney 816 00:43:59,811 --> 00:44:01,421 for San Diego County. 817 00:44:01,551 --> 00:44:05,817 I tried the 1985 case of Samuel Little, 818 00:44:05,947 --> 00:44:08,994 also known as McDowell, 819 00:44:09,124 --> 00:44:11,344 in which he, uh, raped and assaulted 820 00:44:11,474 --> 00:44:13,694 and tried to strangle two women. 821 00:44:13,825 --> 00:44:16,392 We had a solid identification. 822 00:44:16,523 --> 00:44:19,439 The, uh, first one had ended 823 00:44:19,569 --> 00:44:21,876 with the victim being left for dead 824 00:44:21,963 --> 00:44:24,357 in a trash heap, and in the second one, 825 00:44:24,444 --> 00:44:25,793 police officer happened on the scene 826 00:44:25,924 --> 00:44:27,839 and actually interrupted this, uh, man 827 00:44:27,969 --> 00:44:30,145 as he was strangling his victim 828 00:44:30,276 --> 00:44:31,843 in the back seat of his car. 829 00:44:39,546 --> 00:44:41,679 There was no doubt in my mind I had the right guy. 830 00:44:43,245 --> 00:44:44,507 So one of the first things I did 831 00:44:44,638 --> 00:44:46,509 was look at Sam Little's rap sheet. 832 00:44:48,468 --> 00:44:51,819 Many, many arrests 833 00:44:51,906 --> 00:44:54,866 but not much time served. 834 00:44:54,996 --> 00:44:58,783 Violent assault, rape, attempted murder. 835 00:44:58,870 --> 00:45:01,437 In Mississippi, attempted murder, first degree. 836 00:45:01,568 --> 00:45:05,659 Gainesville, Florida, acquitted. 837 00:45:05,790 --> 00:45:08,749 An acquittal's kind of unusual. 838 00:45:08,836 --> 00:45:09,968 That was a bit of a red flag. 839 00:45:10,142 --> 00:45:13,580 ♪ 840 00:45:14,494 --> 00:45:16,670 So having all these facts in mind, uh, 841 00:45:16,757 --> 00:45:18,411 I began to prepare my case, 842 00:45:18,541 --> 00:45:20,456 and the first thing I did, of course, 843 00:45:20,543 --> 00:45:22,371 would be to interview the victims. 844 00:45:23,633 --> 00:45:25,940 The first victim I interviewed is Tonya Jackson, 845 00:45:26,071 --> 00:45:27,768 who was saved by the officer. 846 00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:39,345 [Jillian] Well, I mean, it-it is violent. 847 00:45:39,475 --> 00:45:41,086 It's violent to strangle someone, 848 00:45:41,216 --> 00:45:42,174 right, Mr. Sam? 849 00:45:45,220 --> 00:45:46,744 [Gary] Tonya Jackson 850 00:45:46,831 --> 00:45:48,615 openly admitted she was a prostitute. 851 00:45:48,702 --> 00:45:50,486 She denied there had been 852 00:45:50,617 --> 00:45:52,880 any conflict over a fee or any other reason 853 00:45:53,011 --> 00:45:54,447 for him to attack her 854 00:45:54,577 --> 00:45:56,710 other than for his own pleasure. 855 00:45:56,884 --> 00:45:58,668 ♪ 856 00:45:58,756 --> 00:46:00,453 But if the cop hadn't come along 857 00:46:00,583 --> 00:46:02,890 and interrupted the-the crime in the act, 858 00:46:03,021 --> 00:46:04,718 she wouldn't have made a very good witness on the stand. 859 00:46:04,849 --> 00:46:06,459 She just was, uh, 860 00:46:06,589 --> 00:46:09,505 you know, poorly educated, uh, not a strong speaker, 861 00:46:09,636 --> 00:46:11,812 and appeared to be a person of few words. 862 00:46:13,988 --> 00:46:16,251 But then I interviewed the second witness, 863 00:46:16,382 --> 00:46:17,992 Laurie Barros. 864 00:46:21,517 --> 00:46:23,302 [Laurie] When I had my first meeting 865 00:46:23,432 --> 00:46:25,391 with DDA Gary Rempel, 866 00:46:25,521 --> 00:46:27,088 I can remember sitting down in there 867 00:46:27,219 --> 00:46:28,698 and just b-trembling. 868 00:46:31,353 --> 00:46:32,964 Uh... 869 00:46:33,094 --> 00:46:34,922 [ominous music] 870 00:46:35,053 --> 00:46:37,185 I gave him all the gory details 871 00:46:37,316 --> 00:46:39,187 of what happened to me. 872 00:46:39,361 --> 00:46:42,277 ♪ 873 00:46:44,976 --> 00:46:47,195 So I heard her story, and she really seemed 874 00:46:47,326 --> 00:46:50,024 to make an excellent witness. 875 00:46:50,155 --> 00:46:53,027 She was a very attractive lady, 876 00:46:53,114 --> 00:46:56,465 dressed modestly but nicely. 877 00:46:56,596 --> 00:46:59,468 I thought there'd be no problems in the case. 878 00:46:59,599 --> 00:47:03,124 The only thing was the timing. 879 00:47:03,255 --> 00:47:05,561 What's she doing out in the street 880 00:47:05,692 --> 00:47:10,131 at 11:30 in downtown San Diego at that time of night? 881 00:47:10,262 --> 00:47:13,178 So I just wanted to know why she was there. 882 00:47:13,352 --> 00:47:15,484 ♪ 883 00:47:15,615 --> 00:47:18,661 So I brought her in for further questioning. 884 00:47:18,792 --> 00:47:20,011 [Laurie] I knew something was wrong, 885 00:47:20,141 --> 00:47:21,751 and he told me; he said, 886 00:47:21,882 --> 00:47:24,276 "Yeah, we-we had to pull your record, you know? 887 00:47:24,363 --> 00:47:26,278 It's what we do." 888 00:47:26,408 --> 00:47:28,584 [dramatic music] 889 00:47:28,715 --> 00:47:30,369 I got arrested a couple times, 890 00:47:30,456 --> 00:47:32,197 and--you know, with a group of girls 891 00:47:32,327 --> 00:47:33,981 for prostitution. 892 00:47:34,112 --> 00:47:36,505 Being arrested was 893 00:47:36,636 --> 00:47:39,117 horribly humiliating 894 00:47:39,247 --> 00:47:41,641 and definitely a wake-up call, 895 00:47:41,771 --> 00:47:44,165 going, "What are you doing?" 896 00:47:44,252 --> 00:47:46,907 She came clean. I said, "That-that's okay. 897 00:47:47,038 --> 00:47:50,302 He still didn't have the right to do what he did." 898 00:47:50,432 --> 00:47:52,739 But now I had information 899 00:47:52,870 --> 00:47:54,567 that affected her credibility 900 00:47:54,697 --> 00:47:56,395 as a witness and as a victim. 901 00:47:56,482 --> 00:47:59,398 ♪ 902 00:48:04,446 --> 00:48:07,145 [Laurie] When I testified at trial, 903 00:48:07,232 --> 00:48:09,930 I was an absolute nervous wreck. 904 00:48:10,061 --> 00:48:13,934 Felt like all the pressure was on me 905 00:48:14,065 --> 00:48:17,285 to make sure that the jury would believe me. 906 00:48:17,459 --> 00:48:20,375 ♪ 907 00:48:22,551 --> 00:48:25,598 [Gary] Both my victims did a pretty good job. 908 00:48:25,728 --> 00:48:28,514 They shared their horror. 909 00:48:28,644 --> 00:48:30,951 [eerie music] 910 00:48:31,082 --> 00:48:33,562 Then it was the defense attorney. 911 00:48:33,649 --> 00:48:38,350 Little took the stand. He kept his mild demeanor. 912 00:48:38,437 --> 00:48:41,179 He testified that as to Laurie Barros, 913 00:48:41,309 --> 00:48:43,181 he knew nothing about that case; 914 00:48:43,311 --> 00:48:45,313 he had nothing to do with that case; 915 00:48:45,444 --> 00:48:47,576 he in fact was with, uh, a friend 916 00:48:47,663 --> 00:48:49,056 that he travels with, an older lady 917 00:48:49,187 --> 00:48:51,102 that he takes care of, 918 00:48:51,232 --> 00:48:53,060 a lady living on social security 919 00:48:53,191 --> 00:48:56,150 named Jean. 920 00:48:56,281 --> 00:48:58,979 [Jillian] Didn't Jean take the stand, 921 00:48:59,066 --> 00:49:00,633 uh, at one of your trials? 922 00:49:00,763 --> 00:49:02,069 Was it San Diego? 923 00:49:11,557 --> 00:49:12,601 [Jillian] Wow. 924 00:49:15,517 --> 00:49:18,216 [Gary] Jean testified unequivocally and strongly 925 00:49:18,346 --> 00:49:21,828 that during the, uh, time in question, 926 00:49:21,959 --> 00:49:24,657 she had been with Sam 927 00:49:24,787 --> 00:49:26,659 and that, uh, there was no way 928 00:49:26,789 --> 00:49:29,488 he could've committed the crimes alleged. 929 00:49:29,575 --> 00:49:33,535 She was the consummate alibi witness, 930 00:49:33,666 --> 00:49:35,450 the little under-oath church lady. 931 00:49:35,624 --> 00:49:38,540 ♪ 932 00:49:46,157 --> 00:49:47,201 [Jillian] Mm-hmm. 933 00:49:52,554 --> 00:49:54,774 She must have known. 934 00:49:54,904 --> 00:49:58,517 You're not cleaning blood and shit and earrings 935 00:49:58,647 --> 00:50:01,694 out of the back of a car and thinking, you know, 936 00:50:01,824 --> 00:50:04,740 "My boyfriend's just fucking around." 937 00:50:05,785 --> 00:50:08,831 I think she absolutely knew, 938 00:50:08,962 --> 00:50:10,442 and I think she enabled it. 939 00:50:11,878 --> 00:50:13,532 [Gary] But as to Tonya, 940 00:50:13,662 --> 00:50:16,013 Sam said she was trying 941 00:50:16,100 --> 00:50:17,666 to cheat him out of some money, 942 00:50:17,797 --> 00:50:20,408 and he refused to pay her, and so she attacked him, 943 00:50:20,539 --> 00:50:23,150 and he was simply fighting her off 944 00:50:23,281 --> 00:50:25,022 when the officer arrived on the scene. 945 00:50:25,196 --> 00:50:27,850 ♪ 946 00:50:27,937 --> 00:50:30,636 [Jillian] Sam had a unique ability 947 00:50:30,766 --> 00:50:35,510 for finding the people who would not be credible, 948 00:50:35,641 --> 00:50:37,077 regardless of what they said. 949 00:50:37,208 --> 00:50:40,298 Even if they lived, who would believe them? 950 00:50:40,385 --> 00:50:44,824 Somehow, this man 951 00:50:44,954 --> 00:50:47,827 was more credible 952 00:50:47,957 --> 00:50:49,698 than these victims? 953 00:50:49,785 --> 00:50:52,919 ♪ 954 00:50:53,006 --> 00:50:54,747 [Laurie] I didn't hear from anyone 955 00:50:54,877 --> 00:50:56,792 after I testified. 956 00:50:56,923 --> 00:51:00,100 I had no idea that the jury didn't believe me. 957 00:51:00,274 --> 00:51:02,450 ♪ 958 00:51:02,537 --> 00:51:05,192 I had no idea that... 959 00:51:05,323 --> 00:51:06,846 there was a hung jury. 960 00:51:07,020 --> 00:51:09,979 ♪ 961 00:51:16,247 --> 00:51:17,857 [mournful music] 962 00:51:17,987 --> 00:51:19,467 [Gary] Tonya couldn't be located 963 00:51:19,598 --> 00:51:20,860 for the second trial. 964 00:51:22,035 --> 00:51:27,171 We were faced with a... 965 00:51:27,301 --> 00:51:30,087 extremely weak case that was going to possibly end 966 00:51:30,217 --> 00:51:31,740 in an acquittal, 967 00:51:31,871 --> 00:51:33,220 so we accepted a plea 968 00:51:33,351 --> 00:51:35,657 to two felony counts, 969 00:51:35,788 --> 00:51:39,618 assault with intent to inflict great bodily injury. 970 00:51:39,748 --> 00:51:41,924 We're darn lucky we got to send this guy away 971 00:51:42,055 --> 00:51:45,276 four years to prison for what he had done. 972 00:51:45,406 --> 00:51:46,668 I don't even know if he served 973 00:51:46,755 --> 00:51:48,192 every minute of those four years. 974 00:51:48,322 --> 00:51:50,368 That was the best we could get him, 975 00:51:50,498 --> 00:51:52,065 and that's what we gave him. 976 00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:54,372 ♪ 977 00:51:58,376 --> 00:52:00,595 [sighs] 978 00:52:00,726 --> 00:52:04,121 This was the worst outcome of my career. 979 00:52:05,948 --> 00:52:07,472 They didn't do their job. 980 00:52:07,559 --> 00:52:09,996 ♪ 981 00:52:10,127 --> 00:52:11,998 Whether Tonya was around or not, 982 00:52:12,129 --> 00:52:14,653 they had enough evidence from what happened to me. 983 00:52:14,783 --> 00:52:17,177 The details I gave them, the report I gave them, 984 00:52:17,308 --> 00:52:19,266 the drawing I gave of him, 985 00:52:19,397 --> 00:52:22,008 and the fact he was caught in the act 986 00:52:22,139 --> 00:52:25,490 is unbelievable to me 987 00:52:25,577 --> 00:52:28,014 that they could not have made that trial work. 988 00:52:28,145 --> 00:52:29,755 Somebody fucked up, 989 00:52:29,885 --> 00:52:31,496 big-time. 990 00:52:31,670 --> 00:52:34,586 ♪ 991 00:52:45,858 --> 00:52:47,033 Hi. 992 00:52:47,164 --> 00:52:48,426 [Gary] Hi. You must be Laurie. 993 00:52:48,556 --> 00:52:50,036 [Laurie] I'm Laurie. Please come in. 994 00:52:51,864 --> 00:52:53,518 [sighs] 995 00:52:53,648 --> 00:52:56,825 Very different seating than 35 years ago. 996 00:52:56,956 --> 00:52:58,697 Yeah. 997 00:52:58,827 --> 00:53:01,700 So, uh, I've been curious a few times the... 998 00:53:01,830 --> 00:53:03,658 -Yeah, yeah. -...case has come up, 999 00:53:03,745 --> 00:53:07,923 and, you know, we-we didn't see you for that second trial. 1000 00:53:08,054 --> 00:53:09,969 -Yeah. -And, uh... 1001 00:53:10,099 --> 00:53:11,579 and I don't know if they didn't-didn't do 1002 00:53:11,710 --> 00:53:13,146 a good job locating you, or I didn't know 1003 00:53:13,277 --> 00:53:15,148 if you'd just made yourself scarce or what. 1004 00:53:15,279 --> 00:53:17,150 -What happened? -No one ever called me 1005 00:53:17,237 --> 00:53:18,847 or followed up with me at all. 1006 00:53:18,934 --> 00:53:20,675 -They didn't follow up? -Never. 1007 00:53:20,806 --> 00:53:22,982 I never knew there was a second trial. 1008 00:53:23,112 --> 00:53:24,897 I didn't know there was a hung jury 1009 00:53:25,027 --> 00:53:26,377 in the first trial. 1010 00:53:27,552 --> 00:53:30,555 I never got a call from anyone 1011 00:53:30,685 --> 00:53:32,818 to follow up after I testified. 1012 00:53:32,905 --> 00:53:34,123 Uh, we were put in a bad spot. 1013 00:53:34,254 --> 00:53:36,300 We, uh, couldn't go forward, 1014 00:53:36,387 --> 00:53:38,911 and we had to, uh, 1015 00:53:39,041 --> 00:53:41,479 make a deal with this crook 1016 00:53:41,609 --> 00:53:43,611 and, uh, you know, consequently 1017 00:53:43,742 --> 00:53:45,874 managed to send him to prison but not-not long enough. 1018 00:53:46,005 --> 00:53:47,093 -Right. -Yeah. 1019 00:53:47,224 --> 00:53:48,442 Because we're prostitutes, 1020 00:53:48,573 --> 00:53:50,792 we're women, it doesn't really matter. 1021 00:53:50,879 --> 00:53:55,144 That's ultimately-- what came out of that is... 1022 00:53:55,275 --> 00:53:56,885 "Who cares?" 1023 00:53:57,016 --> 00:53:59,497 Well, I think they don't believe women sometimes 1024 00:53:59,627 --> 00:54:02,587 when they have got a record for being a prostitute 1025 00:54:02,717 --> 00:54:04,763 and then they-they, uh- 1026 00:54:04,850 --> 00:54:06,373 they deny it when it comes for a trial 1027 00:54:06,460 --> 00:54:07,940 on this particular occasion. 1028 00:54:08,070 --> 00:54:09,942 I didn't deny it. 1029 00:54:10,029 --> 00:54:11,030 But you were doing prostitution. 1030 00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:12,553 Am I correct? Okay. 1031 00:54:12,684 --> 00:54:14,903 Five or six times, I was out on the streets, 1032 00:54:15,034 --> 00:54:17,036 doing prostitution. 1033 00:54:17,166 --> 00:54:18,385 I remember being in your office, 1034 00:54:18,516 --> 00:54:20,735 and I fully admitted it; I was humiliated. 1035 00:54:20,866 --> 00:54:23,912 I'm embarrassed of what I did. 1036 00:54:23,999 --> 00:54:27,133 But it shouldn't change anything. 1037 00:54:27,264 --> 00:54:28,743 I didn't deserve for some guy 1038 00:54:28,874 --> 00:54:31,050 to try and murder me. 1039 00:54:31,180 --> 00:54:33,357 There's no way he should've been able 1040 00:54:33,487 --> 00:54:35,837 to plea out like this so easily 1041 00:54:35,968 --> 00:54:38,666 with so much evidence. 1042 00:54:38,797 --> 00:54:40,189 Now, you understand, 1043 00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:42,061 without a witness, we didn't have a trial. 1044 00:54:42,191 --> 00:54:43,062 I'm a witness. It happened to me. 1045 00:54:43,149 --> 00:54:44,585 Right, but-- 1046 00:54:44,672 --> 00:54:47,066 This is crazy. I didn't go anywhere. 1047 00:54:47,153 --> 00:54:51,070 Just, uh, a fucking phone call. 1048 00:54:51,157 --> 00:54:53,202 Can you think of any reason why you wouldn't have called? 1049 00:54:53,333 --> 00:54:55,292 Weren't you curious to know what happened? 1050 00:54:55,422 --> 00:54:57,119 I-I would've called; I'd like to know what happened 1051 00:54:57,250 --> 00:54:59,165 if I was in your shoes. 1052 00:54:59,296 --> 00:55:01,907 You're gonna put this on me? 1053 00:55:02,037 --> 00:55:04,388 -Did you feel-- -I cannot-- 1054 00:55:05,780 --> 00:55:07,739 What a metaphor all this has become. 1055 00:55:07,869 --> 00:55:10,132 Being dumped in trash, never called, 1056 00:55:10,219 --> 00:55:11,656 never contacted. 1057 00:55:11,743 --> 00:55:13,179 If you cared so much, 1058 00:55:13,310 --> 00:55:15,529 it-it should've come from you. 1059 00:55:15,660 --> 00:55:17,662 I'm sorry you think I didn't do 1060 00:55:17,792 --> 00:55:19,881 the best could be done. 1061 00:55:20,012 --> 00:55:21,448 It didn't go well this time, 1062 00:55:21,579 --> 00:55:24,582 and this is just a horrible, horrible case. 1063 00:55:24,669 --> 00:55:28,281 Failed. They failed. 1064 00:55:30,457 --> 00:55:31,937 They failed me. 1065 00:55:32,067 --> 00:55:34,505 They failed every woman after me 1066 00:55:34,635 --> 00:55:36,071 that was killed. 1067 00:55:36,202 --> 00:55:37,943 I'm trying to point out the massive failure 1068 00:55:38,073 --> 00:55:39,161 of the system. 1069 00:55:39,292 --> 00:55:40,685 Nothing's gonna change 1070 00:55:40,772 --> 00:55:42,817 if all we're doing is defending ourself 1071 00:55:42,948 --> 00:55:44,166 and saying we did everything right. 1072 00:55:44,253 --> 00:55:45,864 We did not. 1073 00:55:45,994 --> 00:55:47,779 Women have died 1074 00:55:47,909 --> 00:55:50,869 because everybody's got the same mindset. 1075 00:55:50,956 --> 00:55:52,436 They're stuck. Their hands are tied. 1076 00:55:52,566 --> 00:55:55,395 "I did my best." No, nobody fought. 1077 00:55:55,526 --> 00:55:57,963 We just respond to the system and on to the next. 1078 00:55:58,093 --> 00:56:01,009 [breathes deeply] 1079 00:56:03,490 --> 00:56:05,013 So guess what. 1080 00:56:05,144 --> 00:56:08,016 All the deaths after me are on them. 1081 00:56:10,279 --> 00:56:12,847 Have fun sleeping at night with that, 1082 00:56:12,978 --> 00:56:15,415 'cause you do not get to escape it. 1083 00:56:15,546 --> 00:56:17,548 He went on a killing spree after he got out of prison 1084 00:56:17,678 --> 00:56:19,637 for serving two and a half years, 1085 00:56:19,724 --> 00:56:21,943 immediately after he got out. 1086 00:56:22,030 --> 00:56:24,468 [indistinct police radio chatter] 1087 00:56:24,598 --> 00:56:26,774 [Jillian] I want you to tell me 1088 00:56:26,861 --> 00:56:30,082 about when you got out of prison in San Diego. 1089 00:56:30,212 --> 00:56:31,344 You remember that? 1090 00:56:31,475 --> 00:56:33,520 [disquieting music] 1091 00:56:57,239 --> 00:56:58,284 [Jillian] Mm-hmm. 1092 00:57:00,591 --> 00:57:04,638 [Jillian] When I took on this serial killer story, 1093 00:57:04,769 --> 00:57:06,597 I was like, "This can't be real." 1094 00:57:06,727 --> 00:57:09,861 [dramatic music] 1095 00:57:09,991 --> 00:57:14,387 This man, who everyone knew was killing women, 1096 00:57:14,518 --> 00:57:18,086 got off again and again and again. 1097 00:57:18,217 --> 00:57:20,001 And I thought, "Oh, gosh. 1098 00:57:20,132 --> 00:57:22,308 "Like, I'm gonna get the answer. 1099 00:57:22,439 --> 00:57:24,571 "I'm gonna get the answer 1100 00:57:24,702 --> 00:57:27,052 "of why you feel you need to control women 1101 00:57:27,182 --> 00:57:30,055 "and why you feel you need to own women 1102 00:57:30,185 --> 00:57:32,318 "and, if you can't, why you feel 1103 00:57:32,449 --> 00:57:35,756 you need to destroy women." 1104 00:57:35,887 --> 00:57:38,063 It's like, "I'm gonna get it. I'm gonna get the answer." 1105 00:57:38,237 --> 00:57:41,196 ♪