1 00:00:11,782 --> 00:00:15,995 I know you're not allowed to say this now. Art could be anything. Anyone's an artist. 2 00:00:16,078 --> 00:00:17,830 People go to court, you know, 3 00:00:17,913 --> 00:00:21,083 "I can't make a cake for a gay couple, a wedding cake, 4 00:00:21,167 --> 00:00:22,710 because the cake is my art." 5 00:00:23,210 --> 00:00:26,422 Aside from the political aspect of that, which is reprehensible, 6 00:00:26,505 --> 00:00:29,842 there's also the aspect… I have news for you, Mr. Baker, you know? 7 00:00:29,925 --> 00:00:31,844 If you can eat it, it's not art. 8 00:00:31,927 --> 00:00:33,637 -Okay? -[Martin laughs] 9 00:00:33,721 --> 00:00:37,099 If you can say, "I'll have that and a cup of coffee," that's not art. 10 00:00:37,183 --> 00:00:38,392 That's a snack. 11 00:00:38,476 --> 00:00:41,103 -♪ Baby ♪ -♪ Night and day ♪ 12 00:00:41,187 --> 00:00:43,856 -♪ Baby ♪ -♪ Night and day ♪ 13 00:00:43,939 --> 00:00:47,109 -♪ Oh baby ♪ -♪ Night and day ♪ 14 00:00:47,193 --> 00:00:50,196 -♪ Do I love you? ♪ -♪ Night and day ♪ 15 00:00:50,279 --> 00:00:53,074 -♪ No one above you ♪ -♪ Night and day ♪ 16 00:00:53,157 --> 00:00:55,701 -♪ Now hold me tight ♪ -♪ Night and day ♪ 17 00:00:55,785 --> 00:00:59,246 -♪ And make everything all right ♪ -♪ Night and day ♪ 18 00:00:59,330 --> 00:01:01,999 -♪ Because the night time ♪ -♪ Night and day ♪ 19 00:01:02,083 --> 00:01:04,919 -♪ Oh, is the right time ♪ -♪ Night and day ♪ 20 00:01:05,002 --> 00:01:08,297 -♪ To be with the one you love now ♪ -♪ Night and day ♪ 21 00:01:08,380 --> 00:01:11,342 -♪ Oh yeah, now ♪ -♪ Night and day ♪ 22 00:01:11,425 --> 00:01:14,220 -♪ Tease me ♪ -♪ Night and day ♪ 23 00:01:14,303 --> 00:01:17,431 -♪ Squeeze me ♪ -♪ Night and day ♪ 24 00:01:17,515 --> 00:01:18,516 -[Fran] Yes? -[man] Hi. 25 00:01:18,599 --> 00:01:20,476 Can you talk about your current projects? 26 00:01:20,559 --> 00:01:24,063 Can I talk about current writing projects? Give me your number. I'll call you. 27 00:01:24,146 --> 00:01:25,564 [laughter] 28 00:01:26,232 --> 00:01:28,734 [woman] How can one learn a sense of humor? 29 00:01:28,818 --> 00:01:33,072 How can you acquire a sense of humor? The same way you can acquire height. 30 00:01:33,155 --> 00:01:34,949 -[laughter] -Yeah. 31 00:01:35,032 --> 00:01:38,327 [Martin] What were you saying about somebody putting a shoot on Instagram? 32 00:01:38,410 --> 00:01:41,831 I'm outside, a guy goes, "I saw this on Instagram so I thought I'd come by." 33 00:01:41,914 --> 00:01:43,374 Who put this on Instagram? 34 00:01:43,457 --> 00:01:47,419 -[Martin] No, I know. I can't believe it. -Isn't that a bad idea, don't you think? 35 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,006 -♪ I said, baby ♪ -♪Night and day ♪ 36 00:01:51,090 --> 00:01:54,051 -♪ Baby ♪ -♪ Night and day ♪ 37 00:01:54,135 --> 00:01:56,804 -♪ Baby ♪ -♪ Night and day ♪ 38 00:01:56,887 --> 00:01:58,347 ♪ Whoa! ♪ 39 00:01:58,430 --> 00:02:01,600 I remember the first time I recognized a lack of talent in myself. 40 00:02:02,309 --> 00:02:04,103 I played the cello as a child, 41 00:02:04,728 --> 00:02:09,150 and we had a school orchestra. Every school had an orchestra. 42 00:02:10,067 --> 00:02:12,820 This public school… Every public school had an orchestra. 43 00:02:12,903 --> 00:02:15,990 Um, and they lent you the cello. 44 00:02:16,574 --> 00:02:19,201 At a certain age, I don't remember what age it was, 45 00:02:19,285 --> 00:02:22,663 the school took back these cellos, 46 00:02:22,746 --> 00:02:27,543 and if you wanted to continue playing, you had to buy a cello. 47 00:02:27,626 --> 00:02:32,131 So I remember very well telling this to my parents, 48 00:02:32,214 --> 00:02:35,092 "We have to give the cello back and now we have to buy a cello." 49 00:02:35,593 --> 00:02:38,679 Um, and I remember we lived in a little split-level house. 50 00:02:38,762 --> 00:02:42,141 There were like, I don't know, four stairs and then the kitchen. 51 00:02:42,224 --> 00:02:45,352 And I would sit on the stairs and listen to my parents talk. 52 00:02:45,436 --> 00:02:48,856 And I heard my parents trying to figure out how to pay for a cello. 53 00:02:48,939 --> 00:02:51,192 And so I went into the kitchen, 54 00:02:51,275 --> 00:02:53,861 where I wasn't meant to know they were having this talk, 55 00:02:53,944 --> 00:02:56,780 and I said, "You know, don't buy me a cello." 56 00:02:57,907 --> 00:02:59,658 "I'm not good. I'm really not good. 57 00:02:59,742 --> 00:03:02,912 It's not worth it. It's not worth spending the money on me on this." 58 00:03:02,995 --> 00:03:08,083 And my mother said, "Well, you know, that's 'cause you don't practice enough." 59 00:03:08,918 --> 00:03:10,878 "If you practiced more, you'd be good." 60 00:03:11,378 --> 00:03:14,673 And I said, "No, if I practiced more, I'd be better, 61 00:03:14,757 --> 00:03:16,175 but I'm never gonna be good." 62 00:03:16,258 --> 00:03:20,262 I really enjoyed it. It's the only thing I can remember enjoying that I was bad at. 63 00:03:20,346 --> 00:03:21,388 -Um… -[Martin chuckles] 64 00:03:21,472 --> 00:03:24,433 With the whole orchestra playing, you don't hear how bad I am. 65 00:03:24,516 --> 00:03:26,852 It's a kind of beautiful experience. 66 00:03:26,936 --> 00:03:29,021 Plus, Leonard Bernstein was my childhood idol. 67 00:03:30,022 --> 00:03:36,654 ["William Tell Overture" by Gioachino Rossini playing] 68 00:03:42,034 --> 00:03:45,246 Leonard Bernstein had a television show when I was a child 69 00:03:45,329 --> 00:03:46,747 called Young People's Concerts, 70 00:03:46,830 --> 00:03:48,415 and it was on Sunday, 71 00:03:48,499 --> 00:03:51,543 and I would be waiting every Sunday to see Leonard Bernstein. 72 00:03:51,627 --> 00:03:52,753 I adored him. 73 00:03:52,836 --> 00:03:54,880 Real children went to these concerts. 74 00:03:54,964 --> 00:03:56,924 Not me, but I would see the children go in. 75 00:03:57,007 --> 00:03:59,885 It probably was, like, two years till I realized they were real. 76 00:03:59,969 --> 00:04:03,138 Like, "These are real children?" I guess I thought they were actors. 77 00:04:03,222 --> 00:04:06,934 Okay. Now what do you think that music's all about? 78 00:04:07,434 --> 00:04:09,103 Music is notes. 79 00:04:09,687 --> 00:04:13,190 Beautiful notes and sounds put together in such a way 80 00:04:13,274 --> 00:04:16,610 that we get pleasure out of listening to them. That's all there is to it. 81 00:04:16,694 --> 00:04:18,821 He would explain things on TV, 82 00:04:18,904 --> 00:04:23,450 and also he looked exactly like a child's idea of an orchestra conductor. 83 00:04:23,534 --> 00:04:24,952 This was also very helpful. 84 00:04:25,035 --> 00:04:30,791 ["William Tell Overture" by Gioachino Rossini playing] 85 00:04:30,874 --> 00:04:34,169 "This is the thing that can be done on this instrument, 86 00:04:34,253 --> 00:04:38,048 and this is not you, Fran. You cannot do this." 87 00:04:38,132 --> 00:04:42,261 It wouldn't matter how much I practiced. I knew that. Okay? So that was it. 88 00:04:43,137 --> 00:04:44,596 So I knew what talent was, 89 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:49,268 because I was very aware of the lack of it in myself, okay, in this. 90 00:04:49,351 --> 00:04:52,604 When I was little, at one point, I wanted to be an artist and I thought, 91 00:04:52,688 --> 00:04:54,773 "Why did you decide not to?" Because… 92 00:04:54,857 --> 00:04:59,403 And then I thought, "You decided not to be an artist. Too pleasurable, Fran." 93 00:05:00,446 --> 00:05:03,282 Too pleas-- It's pleasurable for me to draw. 94 00:05:03,365 --> 00:05:10,122 So it's like, the kind of harsh judge that I am of other people, 95 00:05:10,205 --> 00:05:12,041 I am much worse on myself. 96 00:05:12,124 --> 00:05:15,836 It's like when people say, "Why are Jews not allowed to eat bacon?" 97 00:05:15,919 --> 00:05:19,590 -And I always say, "Too delicious." -[Martin laughs] 98 00:05:19,673 --> 00:05:20,883 "It's too delicious." 99 00:05:20,966 --> 00:05:24,636 At some point, someone said, "This is really delicious. No." 100 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,599 So, at some point, I must have thought, in some unconscious way, 101 00:05:28,682 --> 00:05:31,977 -"Drawing, painting, too pleasurable. No." -[Martin] Too good, yeah. 102 00:05:32,061 --> 00:05:36,148 Where do you think your sense of humor comes from? Is it more nature or nurture? 103 00:05:36,231 --> 00:05:40,194 I would say nature, because there wasn't that much nurture of it, I assure you. 104 00:05:40,277 --> 00:05:43,447 -[laughter] -I mean, in fact, it was punished. 105 00:05:43,530 --> 00:05:46,533 As a child, I was a girl. Perhaps you do not share this experience. 106 00:05:46,617 --> 00:05:48,410 And my mother said to me, 107 00:05:48,494 --> 00:05:51,121 when I got to be 12 or something like that, 108 00:05:51,205 --> 00:05:55,584 "Don't be funny around boys. Boys do not like funny girls." 109 00:05:56,251 --> 00:05:59,046 -Unfortunately, she was wrong. -[laughter] 110 00:05:59,129 --> 00:06:02,383 But the only thing I ever won, in the ninth grade, 111 00:06:02,466 --> 00:06:05,719 I won the Class Wit award, and I was afraid to bring it home. 112 00:06:05,803 --> 00:06:08,847 What school did you go to that they gave an award for wit? 113 00:06:08,931 --> 00:06:10,891 It was the Morristown Junior High School, 114 00:06:10,974 --> 00:06:13,352 which was the last time I graduated from anything. 115 00:06:13,852 --> 00:06:16,480 -They had the Wittiest Person in Class? -Yes. Class Wit. 116 00:06:16,563 --> 00:06:19,566 -It wasn't a rough field, you know. -[laughter] 117 00:06:19,650 --> 00:06:21,693 I wasn't vying with Oscar Wilde. 118 00:06:21,777 --> 00:06:23,779 [laughter] 119 00:06:23,862 --> 00:06:27,699 I remember when I was young, really young, like 12, 13 or whatever, 120 00:06:27,783 --> 00:06:30,661 I would be at my parents' house, where I lived. Um… 121 00:06:30,744 --> 00:06:34,957 I remember lying on the lawn, looking up into the sky, thinking, 122 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:36,834 "How am I gonna get out of here?" 123 00:06:37,334 --> 00:06:40,295 I don't want you to think I had a Dickensian childhood. I didn't. 124 00:06:40,379 --> 00:06:41,797 But it was not suitable for me. 125 00:06:42,297 --> 00:06:44,466 You know, it wasn't that it was a bad place. 126 00:06:44,550 --> 00:06:48,554 It was just like, "No, this isn't the right place for me." 127 00:06:49,847 --> 00:06:53,016 [Martin] Why do you think so many young people still come to New York? 128 00:06:53,100 --> 00:06:54,143 What's here? 129 00:06:55,394 --> 00:06:57,813 New York. That's what's here. 130 00:06:59,148 --> 00:07:00,899 -[Martin] I mean-- -What's not here? 131 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:05,070 That's the way to look at it. Wherever they're from is not here. 132 00:07:05,612 --> 00:07:06,530 So they come here. 133 00:07:06,613 --> 00:07:09,450 One of the reasons people our age came to New York, 134 00:07:09,533 --> 00:07:11,618 if you were gay, was because you were gay. 135 00:07:12,119 --> 00:07:13,745 So now you can be gay anywhere. 136 00:07:13,829 --> 00:07:15,664 Okay? So, um… 137 00:07:15,747 --> 00:07:19,960 But we came here, um, because you couldn't live in those places. 138 00:07:20,043 --> 00:07:24,548 Um, and so that created, you know, a kind of, um… 139 00:07:24,631 --> 00:07:28,510 density of, um, angry homosexuals, 140 00:07:28,594 --> 00:07:30,345 which is always good for a city. 141 00:07:30,429 --> 00:07:36,143 There's nothing better for a city than a dense population of angry homosexuals. 142 00:07:36,226 --> 00:07:39,313 Um, also, and then, at a certain point, very happy homosexuals 143 00:07:39,396 --> 00:07:41,773 when you find out it's so fun here! 144 00:07:42,774 --> 00:07:48,572 Many people, um, that I know who came to New York from places other than New York, 145 00:07:48,655 --> 00:07:52,951 um, many people had a lot of success. 146 00:07:53,535 --> 00:07:55,829 More than people who were born in New York. 147 00:07:55,913 --> 00:07:59,917 And I think that's because people born in New York understood how hard it was. 148 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,128 But if you didn't know how hard it was, you just came. 149 00:08:03,212 --> 00:08:06,173 You know, I mean, I wrote poetry when I was young. 150 00:08:06,256 --> 00:08:08,091 I walked into the office of Grove Press, 151 00:08:08,175 --> 00:08:13,805 which was this very revered, kind of, you know, bohemian press, 152 00:08:13,889 --> 00:08:16,350 um, with a book of poetry I'd written. 153 00:08:16,850 --> 00:08:19,269 And I walked in, barefoot, I'd like to point out. 154 00:08:19,353 --> 00:08:20,938 I walked around New York barefoot. 155 00:08:21,021 --> 00:08:25,067 The astonishing thing to me is that I'm alive, having walked barefoot in New York. 156 00:08:25,150 --> 00:08:29,905 And I walked in, and I put the manuscript on the desk of the receptionist. 157 00:08:30,697 --> 00:08:32,991 And I said, "I'm a poet." 158 00:08:33,534 --> 00:08:36,828 -I mean, "I'm a poet." Really? -[Martin chuckles] 159 00:08:36,912 --> 00:08:38,705 "Hello, John Donne." 160 00:08:38,789 --> 00:08:40,999 "I'm a poet. I'm a poet, 161 00:08:41,083 --> 00:08:43,710 um, and I'd like to submit this manuscript." 162 00:08:44,211 --> 00:08:45,170 "Okay," she said. 163 00:08:45,796 --> 00:08:50,592 And I left it there, and then I waited every day 164 00:08:50,676 --> 00:08:52,803 for the letter to come, saying, 165 00:08:52,886 --> 00:08:56,306 "We are so delighted to have discovered you as a great poet." 166 00:08:56,390 --> 00:09:00,227 Finally, the letter did come, saying, "Thank you anyway." 167 00:09:00,310 --> 00:09:01,228 [chuckles] Um… 168 00:09:01,311 --> 00:09:04,773 But after my first book came out, one of the first things I thought was, 169 00:09:04,856 --> 00:09:07,067 "Thank goodness they didn't publish that book," 170 00:09:07,150 --> 00:09:10,988 because, of course, I was a terrible poet, and then they would've republished it. 171 00:09:11,071 --> 00:09:13,907 So I was very lucky to have been rejected. 172 00:09:13,991 --> 00:09:17,578 [woman] As legend has it, you were tossed out of high school 173 00:09:17,661 --> 00:09:20,289 and went to New York. How did you survive? 174 00:09:20,372 --> 00:09:24,084 -What did you do when you got to New York? -[Fran] It never seemed daunting to me. 175 00:09:24,167 --> 00:09:29,548 At least I didn't think that I couldn't do things, you know. 176 00:09:29,631 --> 00:09:31,091 And that's kind of remarkable, 177 00:09:31,174 --> 00:09:34,219 considering the fact of what a failure I was in school, 178 00:09:34,303 --> 00:09:37,014 which was my only profession before that. 179 00:09:37,097 --> 00:09:39,057 You can't be a bigger academic failure 180 00:09:39,141 --> 00:09:41,226 than to be thrown out of high school senior year. 181 00:09:41,310 --> 00:09:44,354 It wasn't like I had a lifetime of success behind me buoying me up. 182 00:09:44,438 --> 00:09:46,690 Um, but I just didn't think about it. 183 00:09:46,773 --> 00:09:50,694 I just went to New York to be a writer, and that was it. 184 00:09:51,987 --> 00:09:54,156 I loved to write when I was child. 185 00:09:54,823 --> 00:09:59,202 I loved to write until the very first time I got an assignment to write for money. 186 00:09:59,703 --> 00:10:01,163 And then I hated to write. 187 00:10:01,663 --> 00:10:02,706 I have known… 188 00:10:04,291 --> 00:10:09,921 I would say, only one really, really good writer in my life who loves to write. 189 00:10:11,048 --> 00:10:15,802 Only one, um, loves to write. Most people who love to write are horrible writers. 190 00:10:15,886 --> 00:10:19,222 Of course they love to write. I love to sing. I'm a horrible singer. 191 00:10:19,306 --> 00:10:22,643 If you love to do something you're really bad at, that's not surprising. 192 00:10:22,726 --> 00:10:23,935 Here's the thing. 193 00:10:24,019 --> 00:10:27,689 Like, you can do a lot of things that are not good, 194 00:10:27,773 --> 00:10:33,612 and there's nothing wrong with doing things ineptly or badly or horrifyingly, 195 00:10:33,695 --> 00:10:35,113 but keep it to yourself. 196 00:10:35,197 --> 00:10:36,323 Do not share this. 197 00:10:36,948 --> 00:10:42,371 I think people have an obligation to show to the world things that are… 198 00:10:43,747 --> 00:10:45,874 Not great, most people aren't capable of that, 199 00:10:45,957 --> 00:10:48,460 but better than most things people show to the world. 200 00:10:48,543 --> 00:10:51,922 Now, people show everything. Every single thing. Um… 201 00:10:53,256 --> 00:10:57,260 Uh, there's nothing wrong with it, morally, um, 202 00:10:57,344 --> 00:11:00,514 but I wonder, like, you know, how these people who are… 203 00:11:00,597 --> 00:11:02,933 The people who have always done this, who are young, 204 00:11:03,016 --> 00:11:04,935 who have always lived in this world, 205 00:11:05,018 --> 00:11:08,480 um, I wonder how they would judge anything. 206 00:11:08,563 --> 00:11:09,898 -[Martin] Mmm. -You know? 207 00:11:09,981 --> 00:11:15,070 And since, you know, basically, making distinctions is my profession 208 00:11:15,153 --> 00:11:16,738 and judging is my profession, 209 00:11:17,239 --> 00:11:21,034 I don't think there's any people like me in a young generation. 210 00:11:21,952 --> 00:11:23,787 They wouldn't be allowed to be like me. 211 00:11:23,870 --> 00:11:27,290 Not that my life has been a bed of roses, not that people love the way I am, 212 00:11:27,374 --> 00:11:29,710 but, you know, they're… 213 00:11:30,836 --> 00:11:34,297 they're either incredibly critical in a kind of crazy way, 214 00:11:34,381 --> 00:11:37,217 like, you know, "I hate your hair style. You should die." 215 00:11:37,300 --> 00:11:42,597 You know, or they're incredibly overpraising of people. 216 00:11:42,681 --> 00:11:45,892 "Oh, that's great. Oh, you're great. Keep going. You're great." 217 00:11:46,518 --> 00:11:48,854 You know, I would basically say, you know, 218 00:11:49,438 --> 00:11:50,647 "Your hairstyle? 219 00:11:50,731 --> 00:11:53,567 No one should be killed for your hairstyle, but your writing? 220 00:11:53,650 --> 00:11:56,027 Stop. Don't keep going. You're not great." 221 00:11:57,237 --> 00:12:01,199 Once I asked you because you often express how much you like to write. 222 00:12:01,283 --> 00:12:04,536 -Not a thing writers frequently say. -[laughs] 223 00:12:04,619 --> 00:12:09,291 I asked why you like to write. You said, "Because otherwise I'm stuck with life." 224 00:12:09,374 --> 00:12:11,251 [Toni laughs] 225 00:12:11,334 --> 00:12:12,627 Well, yeah. 226 00:12:12,711 --> 00:12:17,841 Well, I have to say that after I finished the first book I wrote, The Bluest Eye, 227 00:12:17,924 --> 00:12:23,555 there was a period of melancholy that was very profound, and I-- 228 00:12:23,638 --> 00:12:24,723 Now I know. 229 00:12:24,806 --> 00:12:30,854 I can anticipate that feeling at the close of a novel, um, 230 00:12:30,937 --> 00:12:33,315 and at the close of the last revision, 231 00:12:33,398 --> 00:12:36,693 that constant picking over it and picking over it 232 00:12:36,777 --> 00:12:40,322 and making sure it's this word and not that word. 233 00:12:40,405 --> 00:12:41,782 Um, but it's true. 234 00:12:41,865 --> 00:12:47,037 "Stuck with life" may be a little strong, Fran, but it's certainly-- 235 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:49,956 -I'm just quoting you, accurately. -[Toni laughs] 236 00:12:51,208 --> 00:12:56,046 The main thing writers need, or painters, or any other kind of artist, is talent. 237 00:12:56,129 --> 00:13:00,258 And the great thing about talent is that it is the one thing, 238 00:13:00,342 --> 00:13:01,718 the only thing I can think of, 239 00:13:01,802 --> 00:13:07,015 that is absolutely randomly distributed throughout the population of the world. 240 00:13:07,098 --> 00:13:11,144 It has nothing to do with anything. It has-- You cannot buy it. 241 00:13:11,228 --> 00:13:14,314 You cannot learn it. You know, you cannot inherit it. 242 00:13:14,815 --> 00:13:17,234 You can't. It's not genetic. Okay? 243 00:13:17,317 --> 00:13:21,988 It is just sprinkled like sand around the world, and it could come up anywhere. 244 00:13:22,072 --> 00:13:24,825 Now, there are many places where you might have this talent, 245 00:13:24,908 --> 00:13:27,244 but you have no ability to express it. Okay? 246 00:13:27,327 --> 00:13:29,538 There are many places like that, but, 247 00:13:30,163 --> 00:13:33,834 um, and it is probably the reason why people are always, 248 00:13:33,917 --> 00:13:36,419 especially in this country, um, 249 00:13:36,503 --> 00:13:41,174 looking for explanations for, um, success of a book or-- 250 00:13:41,258 --> 00:13:44,719 When I say "success," I don't mean commercial success. Other than talent. 251 00:13:45,804 --> 00:13:47,889 Because it's infuriating to people. 252 00:13:49,683 --> 00:13:51,935 [Ted] How rich was Edith Wharton when she started? 253 00:13:52,018 --> 00:13:54,354 [Fran] Very rich.  Edith Wharton was extremely rich. 254 00:13:54,437 --> 00:13:56,982 She was immensely rich. Okay? 255 00:13:57,065 --> 00:14:00,569 The main thing that makes Edith Wharton a great writer is talent. 256 00:14:01,069 --> 00:14:05,532 But the privileges of her wealth and her class is why we have this book, 257 00:14:05,615 --> 00:14:07,033 which is riveting. 258 00:14:07,117 --> 00:14:11,746 But it's very rare for someone in that class to write. 259 00:14:11,830 --> 00:14:15,125 So most people who wrote about that class were outside. 260 00:14:15,208 --> 00:14:17,794 That was real unusual for a woman especially. 261 00:14:17,878 --> 00:14:20,297 I mean, there were plenty of other rich women 262 00:14:20,380 --> 00:14:23,717 during the era of Edith Wharton, and they didn't write these books. 263 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:27,387 Since there's always gonna be rich women, it's good if you get one like this. 264 00:14:27,470 --> 00:14:33,018 There's a letter here that I'm gonna read from the New York Times on July 31st, um, 265 00:14:33,101 --> 00:14:35,061 in this article I read the other night. 266 00:14:35,145 --> 00:14:39,524 "An administrator in the city's education department denounces a reading skills exam 267 00:14:39,608 --> 00:14:42,694 that used an extract from Edith Wharton's Age of Innocence." 268 00:14:44,070 --> 00:14:47,490 And it was, it read, the passage in question begins, quote, 269 00:14:47,574 --> 00:14:53,872 "It was generally agreed in New York that Countess Olenska had 'lost her looks.'" 270 00:14:55,665 --> 00:15:00,128 The complaint is that, quote, "Any girl taking the exam," unquote, 271 00:15:00,795 --> 00:15:05,425 will experience the mention of losing your looks as a, quote, "psychic punch." 272 00:15:05,508 --> 00:15:07,636 -[laughter] -Unquote. 273 00:15:07,719 --> 00:15:11,806 Not to mention the countesses, who might… You know, it's like… 274 00:15:12,432 --> 00:15:15,977 Um, I've always taken a lot of care not to offend any countesses. Um. 275 00:15:16,061 --> 00:15:17,729 [laughter] 276 00:15:17,812 --> 00:15:19,481 What am I-- This is insane! 277 00:15:20,315 --> 00:15:22,734 Okay? I mean, but I'm very delighted. 278 00:15:22,817 --> 00:15:28,073 This is the only way you're gonna get them to read Edith Wharton, by the way, so, um… 279 00:15:29,532 --> 00:15:31,534 [seagulls mewing] 280 00:15:31,618 --> 00:15:34,704 [Marvin Gaye] An artist, if he is truly an artist, 281 00:15:34,788 --> 00:15:37,123 is, um, only interested in one thing, 282 00:15:37,207 --> 00:15:40,585 and that is to wake up the minds of men. 283 00:15:41,211 --> 00:15:44,631 To have mankind and womankind realize 284 00:15:44,714 --> 00:15:50,220 that, um, there is something greater than what we see on the surface. 285 00:15:50,303 --> 00:15:55,225 So, that, um, is always reflected in a true artist's music 286 00:15:55,308 --> 00:15:57,102 or his works, his paintings. 287 00:15:57,602 --> 00:15:59,479 ♪ Want you, baby ♪ 288 00:16:01,272 --> 00:16:03,358 ♪ Did you hear me? Hey ♪ 289 00:16:05,110 --> 00:16:06,403 ♪ Oh baby ♪ 290 00:16:07,612 --> 00:16:09,572 ♪ I want you, baby ♪ 291 00:16:10,532 --> 00:16:12,283 ♪ Get it, woo! ♪ 292 00:16:12,826 --> 00:16:13,743 ♪ Did you hear me? ♪ 293 00:16:13,827 --> 00:16:16,204 [Marvin] We're going to the top right now. Go on to the top. 294 00:16:16,287 --> 00:16:17,580 Top, top. 295 00:16:19,082 --> 00:16:20,583 This is the vamp, vamp. 296 00:16:25,255 --> 00:16:28,383 Say, we'll probably do four of these, four of these. 297 00:16:30,010 --> 00:16:31,761 I like it. [vocalizes bass sound] 298 00:16:33,471 --> 00:16:37,684 ♪ Oh, I want you ♪ 299 00:16:38,685 --> 00:16:40,645 ♪ Want you, baby ♪ 300 00:16:40,729 --> 00:16:42,981 ♪ I want you ♪ 301 00:16:43,064 --> 00:16:45,483 [Fran] I understand how many things are made. 302 00:16:45,567 --> 00:16:50,363 Not that I could do it, but I know how you make a painting, you make a drawing. 303 00:16:50,447 --> 00:16:52,699 But I don't know how you write a song. 304 00:16:52,782 --> 00:16:55,076 [Marvin] All right, y'all, play it for me one time. 305 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:56,828 ♪ Woo! ♪ 306 00:16:57,412 --> 00:16:58,788 [Fran] I know how you write lyrics, 307 00:16:58,872 --> 00:17:00,915 but I don't know how you write a piece of music. 308 00:17:00,999 --> 00:17:03,960 And I realize sometimes I have seen films 309 00:17:04,044 --> 00:17:09,174 of, um, huge concerts of very popular musicians. 310 00:17:09,257 --> 00:17:12,260 Um, and now they have all these cameras that go over there, 311 00:17:12,343 --> 00:17:14,804 and you can see the faces of the people, you know. 312 00:17:14,888 --> 00:17:19,476 And I'm always, when I see this, I'm very interested in the audience. 313 00:17:19,559 --> 00:17:20,935 And I see this, and I… 314 00:17:21,019 --> 00:17:25,148 You see how happy and grateful the people are for this music. 315 00:17:25,732 --> 00:17:28,443 You know, especially popular music of their youth. 316 00:17:28,526 --> 00:17:31,488 It doesn't matter whether the popular music of their youth 317 00:17:31,571 --> 00:17:36,826 was Frank Sinatra or Billy Joel or David Bowie or, you know, Q-Tip. 318 00:17:36,910 --> 00:17:39,954 This is, "Don't you remember when we went on our first date? 319 00:17:40,038 --> 00:17:41,456 This was the music. Remember?" 320 00:17:41,539 --> 00:17:43,792 This is centrally important to people. 321 00:17:44,584 --> 00:17:47,253 And they love the person who gave this to them. 322 00:17:47,337 --> 00:17:48,963 And the whole thing is a mystery to them. 323 00:17:49,464 --> 00:17:53,510 -No one is loved like musicians. -[Martin] Mm-hmm. 324 00:17:53,593 --> 00:17:56,471 You know, no arts… Musicians are loved by people. 325 00:17:56,554 --> 00:17:58,139 You know, really loved, 326 00:17:58,223 --> 00:18:03,770 because they give them the ability to express their emotions and their memories. 327 00:18:03,853 --> 00:18:05,772 There's no other form that does that. 328 00:18:05,855 --> 00:18:08,066 I mean, I really think that musicians, 329 00:18:08,149 --> 00:18:10,485 probably musicians and cooks, 330 00:18:10,568 --> 00:18:13,780 are responsible for the most pleasure in human life. 331 00:18:13,863 --> 00:18:16,574 You know. And so, like, 332 00:18:16,658 --> 00:18:19,661 Motown music, which was very popular when I was a teenager, 333 00:18:19,744 --> 00:18:22,497 um, whenever I hear it, I instantly become happier. 334 00:18:23,039 --> 00:18:25,041 There's just no question that it makes me happier. 335 00:18:25,125 --> 00:18:27,127 Now, this is true of almost nothing. 336 00:18:27,627 --> 00:18:31,548 Okay. Now, do I think, like, Motown is the greatest music ever made? 337 00:18:31,631 --> 00:18:33,007 You know, I don't. 338 00:18:33,091 --> 00:18:36,928 But if you asked me, "The second you hear this, do you feel happier?" I do. 339 00:18:37,512 --> 00:18:40,765 Okay? That's a very important thing to do for human beings. 340 00:18:40,849 --> 00:18:44,686 I mean, music makes people happier, um, and it doesn't harm them. 341 00:18:44,769 --> 00:18:49,023 Most things that make you feel better are harmful. You know, so it's very unusual. 342 00:18:49,107 --> 00:18:51,442 It's like a drug that doesn't kill you. 343 00:18:52,360 --> 00:18:58,241 There is a lot to be said for being in physical contact with other artists. 344 00:18:58,324 --> 00:18:59,200 Hanging around. 345 00:18:59,284 --> 00:19:01,911 -Hanging around is important. -[Martin] There was Max's-- 346 00:19:01,995 --> 00:19:04,747 Yeah, Max's and a million places. And a million places before that. 347 00:19:04,831 --> 00:19:06,958 And that was New York. That was Paris. That was… 348 00:19:07,041 --> 00:19:09,294 Different times, different cities. Um… 349 00:19:09,836 --> 00:19:11,045 But it's very important. 350 00:19:11,129 --> 00:19:14,757 And I remember when Michael Bloomberg first made that smoking law, um, 351 00:19:15,383 --> 00:19:17,802 and I would still, like, actually speak to him, 352 00:19:17,886 --> 00:19:24,100 I said, "Do you know, um, what artists sitting around in bars and restaurants, 353 00:19:24,184 --> 00:19:26,811 talking and drinking and smoking, is called?" 354 00:19:26,895 --> 00:19:30,106 He said, "What?" I said, "It's called the history of art." Okay? 355 00:19:30,190 --> 00:19:31,316 If you… Like just think. 356 00:19:31,399 --> 00:19:34,402 If Picasso had to get up, go outside to smoke… 357 00:19:34,485 --> 00:19:35,403 [Martin chuckles] 358 00:19:35,486 --> 00:19:36,988 …he might've missed something. 359 00:19:37,071 --> 00:19:41,868 Would you say a great athlete is on par with a great artist? 360 00:19:43,203 --> 00:19:46,831 Um, I would say that a great athlete is on par with a great dancer. 361 00:19:48,166 --> 00:19:49,626 But not a great writer. 362 00:19:51,377 --> 00:19:52,337 [Spike] I disagree. 363 00:19:52,837 --> 00:19:54,255 I know. I'm shocked. 364 00:19:54,339 --> 00:19:56,090 [laughter] 365 00:19:56,174 --> 00:19:57,508 I am flabbergasted. 366 00:19:57,592 --> 00:19:59,219 I would say, for me-- 367 00:19:59,302 --> 00:20:02,430 The only person who disagrees with me as much as you are my relatives. 368 00:20:02,513 --> 00:20:09,020 I wouldn't… Michael Jordan is on par with Sinatra, 369 00:20:09,103 --> 00:20:10,480 Michelangelo… 370 00:20:12,649 --> 00:20:15,068 Count Basie, Duke Ellington. 371 00:20:15,735 --> 00:20:18,238 He's on that level. And you can't… For me! 372 00:20:18,321 --> 00:20:22,325 He may be on that level in his sport. I'm not saying he isn't. I don't know. 373 00:20:22,408 --> 00:20:25,328 Everyone calls him the greatest basketball player. I believe you. 374 00:20:25,411 --> 00:20:27,789 I'm not gonna argue who's the greatest player. 375 00:20:27,872 --> 00:20:30,917 But it's not he's just a great, but what the man… I mean… 376 00:20:31,417 --> 00:20:38,341 Whatever field you work at, when you go to that level, it's like the pantheon. 377 00:20:38,424 --> 00:20:40,843 Of course, I agree, they're the highest level. 378 00:20:40,927 --> 00:20:45,848 However, 40 years after he dies, no one's gonna listen to a Michael Jordan record 379 00:20:45,932 --> 00:20:47,725 like you can a Duke Ellington record. 380 00:20:47,809 --> 00:20:50,645 You can always have Duke Ellington, because there's a, 381 00:20:50,728 --> 00:20:52,981 not just a record in the sense of a vinyl record, 382 00:20:53,064 --> 00:20:54,565 there is a record of his work. 383 00:20:54,649 --> 00:20:58,736 The work is the same. Michael Jordan doesn't continue to play basketball. 384 00:20:58,820 --> 00:21:00,488 He doesn't leave a permanent record. 385 00:21:00,571 --> 00:21:03,032 Do you watch old Michael Jordan basketball games? 386 00:21:03,116 --> 00:21:05,076 -You can. -[Fran] I know you can. 387 00:21:05,159 --> 00:21:07,245 Okay? I know you may. 388 00:21:07,328 --> 00:21:08,913 -[Spike laughs] -But do you? 389 00:21:08,997 --> 00:21:11,416 Isn't part of the excitement how the game ends? 390 00:21:11,916 --> 00:21:13,042 -Yes, but-- -You already know. 391 00:21:13,126 --> 00:21:14,002 But after… 392 00:21:14,502 --> 00:21:17,630 Does Picasso still paint? Is he still painting? 393 00:21:17,714 --> 00:21:20,717 No, but the pictures we have are the same pictures that he painted. 394 00:21:21,801 --> 00:21:24,095 -What do you mean? -There's no element of suspense. 395 00:21:24,178 --> 00:21:28,266 You don't say, "How does this come out?" That's not why you look at a Picasso. 396 00:21:28,349 --> 00:21:31,519 Isn't part of the reason you watch a basketball game to see who wins? 397 00:21:31,602 --> 00:21:35,231 If you already know who wins, Michael Jordan already won, do you watch it again? 398 00:21:35,315 --> 00:21:38,776 Yes. You're more like, "How the fuck did he do that?" 399 00:21:38,860 --> 00:21:41,821 Okay. Well, I suppose that's one way of looking at it. 400 00:21:42,697 --> 00:21:47,910 [dramatic music playing] 401 00:22:09,682 --> 00:22:11,517 [man 1] We move to the Femmes d'Alger. 402 00:22:11,601 --> 00:22:13,603 Picasso's Femmes d'Alger. Wonderful painting. 403 00:22:13,686 --> 00:22:16,981 Where do we open this? $100 million to open it. 100 million. 404 00:22:17,065 --> 00:22:18,441 105 million. 405 00:22:18,524 --> 00:22:22,320 [man 2] Great Picasso, Nude, Green Leaves and Bust from 1932. 406 00:22:22,403 --> 00:22:24,530 $58 million to start us. 407 00:22:24,614 --> 00:22:29,035 Why not? 129 million. Who will give me 130? 47 might do it. 408 00:22:29,118 --> 00:22:31,996 At $92 million. 93 million. 409 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:35,583 Wait, wait, wait. 147, you see? 147. 410 00:22:35,666 --> 00:22:38,419 93 million. Against you here. Against you here. 411 00:22:38,503 --> 00:22:41,047 Don't wait. 147, I'll sell it against you. 412 00:22:41,130 --> 00:22:46,636 $95 million. Last chance at 95. 95 million. 413 00:22:48,554 --> 00:22:52,558 Valiant bidding. Thank you so much. At $160 million, ladies and gentlemen. 414 00:22:52,642 --> 00:22:57,522 Fair warning. Picasso's Femmes d'Alger, selling it here at Christie's. 415 00:22:57,605 --> 00:22:59,065 $160 million. 416 00:22:59,148 --> 00:23:01,859 -Right. It's yours, sold. -[applause] 417 00:23:02,944 --> 00:23:06,906 You think, in terms of our culture now, any of the art forms, 418 00:23:06,989 --> 00:23:11,077 which is the most, I don't know, wanting at this point? 419 00:23:11,953 --> 00:23:13,579 -You mean which is the worst? -Yeah. 420 00:23:13,663 --> 00:23:15,081 -Yeah. -[he laughs] 421 00:23:15,164 --> 00:23:17,333 [Martin continues laughing] 422 00:23:17,417 --> 00:23:18,584 -[Martin] Yeah. -Yeah. 423 00:23:18,668 --> 00:23:21,754 -It's a tough field. Um… -Yeah, no, it's hard. It's hard. 424 00:23:22,588 --> 00:23:26,134 Uh, which has the most opportunity for chicanery? 425 00:23:26,217 --> 00:23:28,594 I would say, um, the visual arts. 426 00:23:29,095 --> 00:23:31,556 You know, or what are called the visual arts. 427 00:23:31,639 --> 00:23:32,765 You know, um… 428 00:23:32,849 --> 00:23:37,103 But I'm certainly, one of the few things, I'm not alone in thinking that, you know. 429 00:23:37,186 --> 00:23:40,064 I think there's wide agreement on this. 430 00:23:40,148 --> 00:23:41,441 It's quite a racket. 431 00:23:42,066 --> 00:23:44,152 -Yeah. Yeah. -[audience laughs] 432 00:23:44,235 --> 00:23:46,320 -[Fran] Do you agree? -I do agree, but the… 433 00:23:46,404 --> 00:23:50,324 I keep thinking of the prices and the extraordinary… Yeah, the racket. 434 00:23:50,408 --> 00:23:52,869 -That's what we hear about. The prices. -The prices. 435 00:23:52,952 --> 00:23:59,083 I mean, if you go to an auction, um, out comes the Picasso, dead silence. 436 00:24:00,251 --> 00:24:03,171 Once the hammer comes down on the price, applause. 437 00:24:03,838 --> 00:24:07,383 Okay? So we live in a world where they applaud the price but not the Picasso. 438 00:24:07,467 --> 00:24:08,509 I rest my case. 439 00:24:08,593 --> 00:24:12,930 [laughter and applause] 440 00:24:13,014 --> 00:24:14,640 Okay? So, I mean… 441 00:24:14,724 --> 00:24:18,102 They applaud the price. They should applaud when the Picasso comes out. 442 00:24:18,186 --> 00:24:20,271 -I know. -"Isn't he good at painting?" 443 00:24:20,354 --> 00:24:22,815 [Martin laughs] 444 00:24:22,899 --> 00:24:24,859 Not, "Aren't you good at buying?" 445 00:24:26,319 --> 00:24:29,906 [uptempo jazz music] 446 00:24:40,625 --> 00:24:41,709 Zzzap! 447 00:24:56,474 --> 00:24:59,018 [Fran] I used to go often to jazz clubs when I was younger, 448 00:24:59,101 --> 00:25:01,145 when there were a lot of great living jazz musicians. 449 00:25:01,229 --> 00:25:02,063 [Spike] Right. 450 00:25:02,146 --> 00:25:06,651 I probably saw every great jazz musician alive during my lifetime. 451 00:25:06,734 --> 00:25:08,945 -Numerous times. -Who was your favorite? 452 00:25:09,028 --> 00:25:11,364 -Mingus, I would say. -Charlie Mingus? 453 00:25:11,447 --> 00:25:12,823 I know him quite well. 454 00:25:12,907 --> 00:25:14,408 [man] What's the gun for? 455 00:25:15,326 --> 00:25:19,205 Someone robbed me. They broke in and took everything when I moved in the first day. 456 00:25:24,210 --> 00:25:25,378 [man] Who robbed you? 457 00:25:26,420 --> 00:25:27,380 Hmm. 458 00:25:27,463 --> 00:25:29,549 Friends or enemies? I have no idea. 459 00:25:30,132 --> 00:25:33,511 It had to be a friend, because they went right to my jewel box. 460 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,724 Had to be someone who knew me. Someone, not a friend, but someone close. 461 00:25:41,269 --> 00:25:43,104 [Fran] He once shot himself in the foot, 462 00:25:43,187 --> 00:25:46,524 because his wife, who at that time was his girlfriend, broke up with him. 463 00:25:46,607 --> 00:25:49,860 So he shot himself in the foot and then walked, bleeding, 464 00:25:49,944 --> 00:25:52,822 up the stairs of her apartment to show what she'd done to him. 465 00:25:52,905 --> 00:25:54,740 He, like, deliberately shot himself in the foot. 466 00:25:54,824 --> 00:25:55,908 [gunshot] 467 00:25:56,492 --> 00:26:01,122 I was friends with Charles, because his wife, um, owned the magazine. 468 00:26:01,205 --> 00:26:03,499 Newspaper. They used to call them underground newspapers. 469 00:26:03,583 --> 00:26:06,877 Owned the first, um, magazine, in a way, 470 00:26:06,961 --> 00:26:10,381 it was a quarter fold newspaper, that I worked for when I was, like, 19. 471 00:26:10,464 --> 00:26:12,508 She owned it. Um, and that's how I knew him. 472 00:26:12,592 --> 00:26:13,843 [Charles] Two, three, four. 473 00:26:13,926 --> 00:26:19,640 -[jazz music plays] -[applause] 474 00:26:24,604 --> 00:26:27,857 [Fran] I mean, he was very volatile. Like really volatile. 475 00:26:27,940 --> 00:26:31,235 He once got mad at me and in the middle of a set at the Vanguard, 476 00:26:31,319 --> 00:26:34,530 when he saw me, jumped off the bandstand, ran up the stairs… 477 00:26:34,614 --> 00:26:38,159 And he was fat. He was not, like, an athletic guy. 478 00:26:38,242 --> 00:26:42,496 And, you know, I thought he was old. He was probably in his late forties. 479 00:26:42,580 --> 00:26:46,208 But I was a young kid. I was, like, 19. But not a good runner. 480 00:26:46,292 --> 00:26:50,838 And he, like, ran after me, yelling at me, all the way down Seventh Avenue, 481 00:26:50,921 --> 00:26:52,632 'till almost we got to Canal Street, 482 00:26:52,715 --> 00:26:56,510 and then finally I could not run anymore, and I, like, fell into the street. 483 00:26:57,011 --> 00:26:59,764 And then he, by the way, he's supposed to be playing. 484 00:26:59,847 --> 00:27:02,433 The rest of the band is on the bandstand at the Vanguard, 485 00:27:02,516 --> 00:27:04,477 which is now, like, 20 blocks uptown. 486 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,188 And I fell down like this, and he fell down, 487 00:27:07,271 --> 00:27:10,483 and then he sat down, and he looked at me. He goes, "Wanna go eat?" 488 00:27:12,526 --> 00:27:13,736 So I pointed out to him, 489 00:27:13,819 --> 00:27:17,573 "Well, you're in the middle of a set, and people went to see you." 490 00:27:17,657 --> 00:27:23,287 Um, he was such a famous eater that to walk through Chinatown with Charles 491 00:27:23,371 --> 00:27:26,582 was to have chefs come out of basements applauding him. 492 00:27:26,666 --> 00:27:29,418 -[Martin laughs] -This endeared him to my mother. 493 00:27:29,502 --> 00:27:31,337 He came to my parents' house for Thanksgiving. 494 00:27:31,420 --> 00:27:32,254 -[Spike] Yeah? -Yes. 495 00:27:32,338 --> 00:27:34,632 My mother loved him. He was such a good eater. 496 00:27:34,715 --> 00:27:36,092 [laughter] 497 00:27:36,175 --> 00:27:38,552 She said, "That Charles, he's such a good eater. 498 00:27:38,636 --> 00:27:41,055 Not only did he eat so many portions, but afterward, 499 00:27:41,138 --> 00:27:43,349 he came in the kitchen and finished the turkey." 500 00:27:43,432 --> 00:27:44,809 [laughter] 501 00:27:44,892 --> 00:27:48,396 Most people see him as a musical genius. My mother saw him as a great eater. 502 00:27:49,814 --> 00:27:52,108 -I had breakfast once with Duke Ellington. -Yes? 503 00:27:52,191 --> 00:27:54,860 -With Charles, and-- -Where was this at? 504 00:27:54,944 --> 00:27:57,488 Reuben's, which used to be an all-night restaurant, 505 00:27:57,571 --> 00:28:00,241 which used to be on 58th and Fifth Avenue. 506 00:28:00,324 --> 00:28:05,746 And Duke Ellington is the only person I ever saw Charles Mingus defer to. 507 00:28:06,664 --> 00:28:11,377 Charles, when he was a young guy, played in Duke Ellington's band, and was fired. 508 00:28:12,128 --> 00:28:16,799 And Charles was a very, um, arrogant person. 509 00:28:16,882 --> 00:28:19,301 Um, he really didn't want people to talk to him. 510 00:28:19,385 --> 00:28:21,595 Um, he had a lot of contempt for most people. 511 00:28:21,679 --> 00:28:25,891 Um, and the only person I ever saw him defer to was Duke Ellington. 512 00:28:25,975 --> 00:28:27,977 But he was so deferential to Duke Ellington 513 00:28:28,060 --> 00:28:29,353 that he hardly would look at him. 514 00:28:29,895 --> 00:28:32,982 And Duke Ellington was yelling at him, "Charles!" 515 00:28:33,065 --> 00:28:37,111 "Oh, sorry, Duke." It was like a completely different person. 516 00:28:37,194 --> 00:28:39,947 Like, "What happened to Charles?" You know? 517 00:28:40,030 --> 00:28:42,366 So everyone has someone like that in their lives, 518 00:28:42,450 --> 00:28:47,496 no matter how, you know, arrogant they may be or how great they may be. 519 00:28:48,831 --> 00:28:51,834 I mean Charles, in my opinion, was a great artist, 520 00:28:51,917 --> 00:28:54,754 but in Charles's opinion, Duke Ellington, more important. 521 00:28:54,837 --> 00:29:00,760 [gentle jazz music] 522 00:29:09,894 --> 00:29:13,939 [man] If you admire somebody's work, you absorb a certain amount of it. 523 00:29:14,815 --> 00:29:18,944 It's getting to the point now where the modern, contemporary composer 524 00:29:19,028 --> 00:29:25,034 and the guy who's supposed to be a, a modern jazz composer, 525 00:29:25,117 --> 00:29:28,078 uh, they all come out of the same conservatories. 526 00:29:28,162 --> 00:29:28,996 Exactly. 527 00:29:29,079 --> 00:29:32,333 And, uh, it's very difficult to find a place to draw the line. 528 00:29:32,416 --> 00:29:35,169 Well, you were certainly one of the pioneers in that. 529 00:29:35,252 --> 00:29:37,171 Oh yeah, but I didn't come out of a conservatory. 530 00:29:37,254 --> 00:29:42,009 No, but you were one of the first people who wrote so-called symphonic jazz. 531 00:29:42,092 --> 00:29:45,054 I had a conservatory in the Capitol Theater. 532 00:29:45,137 --> 00:29:46,639 That's right. Exactly. 533 00:29:46,722 --> 00:29:48,682 Listen to the symphony before the picture. 534 00:29:48,766 --> 00:29:50,976 Maybe that's really the difference between us. 535 00:29:51,060 --> 00:29:54,772 That you wrote symphonic jazz, and I wrote jazz symphonies. 536 00:29:54,855 --> 00:29:56,190 [laughter] 537 00:29:56,273 --> 00:29:57,942 -Love you, man. -Something like that. 538 00:29:59,151 --> 00:30:04,073 ["La Dolce Vita (Finale)" plays] 539 00:30:10,496 --> 00:30:12,414 [Fran] Did you see my Calder cuff links? 540 00:30:12,498 --> 00:30:16,710 These were lent to me by Sandy Rower, who is the grandson of Alexander Calder, 541 00:30:16,794 --> 00:30:18,838 who made these with his hands. 542 00:30:18,921 --> 00:30:23,884 Not designed a line of cuff links like artists do now. He made them. 543 00:30:23,968 --> 00:30:27,721 He must have made them for himself, Calder, you know? I mean… 544 00:30:27,805 --> 00:30:31,058 He did not make them for Fran. Um, he made a lot of jewelry. 545 00:30:31,141 --> 00:30:34,144 There was a show at the Met just of Calder's jewelry 546 00:30:34,228 --> 00:30:35,563 and it was fantastic. 547 00:30:35,646 --> 00:30:38,607 There's a very wonderful biography of Calder. 548 00:30:38,691 --> 00:30:41,610 I don't know. His sister, when he was, like, seven years old 549 00:30:41,694 --> 00:30:45,114 gave him a pair of pliers for Christmas, and he writes about this. 550 00:30:45,197 --> 00:30:48,742 "This is the greatest Christmas of my life. I got a pair of pliers!" 551 00:30:48,826 --> 00:30:51,203 -[Martin] That's great. -And he used them to make these. 552 00:30:51,287 --> 00:30:53,914 And I think these may have been made with the same pair of pliers. 553 00:30:53,998 --> 00:30:57,084 -[Martin] That's amazing. -I mean, I just think they're spectacular.