When you moved in there,
it didn't have any of the amenities?
No.
There was no kitchen, bathroom, stove, refrigerator...
I wish.
And was the building condemned, sir?
I'm not sure.
Oh, wow.
I said, "That's on you."
It's not on her. It's on you.
[announcer] This is Judy Justice.
[theme music playing]
[announcer] Tracy Karlovich is suing her former landlord, Matthew Sagarin,
for hotel costs, moving expenses, and a security deposit.
[Kevin] Court come to order.
Have a seat, please.
- Morning. - [Kevin] Good morning, Judge.
Case number 1131,
Karlovich versus Sagarin.
- Thank you. - You're welcome.
[Judge Judy] Mr. Sagarin, I'm gonna start with you, sir.
You decided to purchase a building.
And my understanding from your answer
is that the building had some sort of historical significance
as a commercial building, but it was currently
- in a residential neighborhood. - Correct, Your Honor.
Where was it located?
[Mathew] In a small town called Medford, Minnesota.
And you live there?
[Mathew] I had previously owned a small farm, uh, near Medford.
I currently live in the Twin Cities.
[Judge Judy] What prompted you to buy this building?
When I sold my farm, I had a lot of equipment.
I had an excavator and a dump truck.
And I needed a place to store it.
So, this is a three-quarter acre site.
It's a large building
and my intention was that I would use part of it for storage
and rent out, uh, the majority of it
to someone who needed a blacksmith shop
or a woodworker shop or, you know.
- It's an industrial building? - Correct.
[Judge Judy] Was it ever your intention, sir, to rehab the building
for the purposes of asking for permits
to use it as residences?
I had--I had an idea. Not a real plan.
It was an exciting opportunity
because of, uh, all the square footage and space involved.
I put an ad on Craigslist saying I have extra space,
you know, are you a woodworker, an artist, an artisan.
Do you have a copy of that ad on-- that you...
[Mathew] Unfortunately, I couldn't find it.
It was taken down because of the time.
[Judge Judy] So this is what the case is about.
Ms. Karlovich, you're in some sort of a car business.
Correct.
And you were in that business in the same town?
No, actually, I'm coming from 45 minutes north of this town,
so I'm moving the business.
[Judge Judy] Okay. What kind of place did you have in your old town?
A warehouse-style garage shop.
[Judge Judy] Now when you lived in the prior place,
did you have separate quarters for yourself to live in?
Yes.
[Judge Judy] And how much did you pay for the warehouse where you did your work?
[Tracy] Two thousand a month.
[Judge Judy] And how much did you pay for your apartment?
It was the same area but it was separated.
But it was the same rent.
So you lived in the same place where you work?
Well, so it was separated off to living quarters and a shop area.
[Judge Judy] It was already set up that way when you bought it.
Yes.
- Okay. Did it have a kitchen? - Yes.
- [Judge Judy] Did it have a bathroom? - Yes.
[Judge Judy] Did it have closets in the bedroom?
- Yes. - [Judge Judy] And that was 2,000 a month?
Correct.
[Judge Judy] When you saw the defendant's ad on Craigslist,
how much was he asking for the property?
I don't believe there was a price...
[Judge Judy] Just a second. Do you recall whether there was a price?
Nothing mentioned.
[Judge Judy] Okay. So you called him
- or contacted him. - Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm.
[Judge Judy] Did you go and look at the space?
It was only 45 minutes away,
- I assume that you did. - I did.
And you were satisfied with the space?
[Tracy] Well, I mean, there was a journey to begin, for sure.
[Judge Judy] Okay. But you were satisfied enough to rent the space.
[Tracy] Yes. Yes.
On what date did you rent the space?
[Tracy] So we began this agreement on February 1st.
[Judge Judy] When you rented the space, it was a warehouse.
Sure, yes.
- [Judge Judy] Did it have a kitchen? - [Tracy] No.
[Judge Judy] Did it have a bedroom with closets?
[Tracy] No.
- [Judge Judy] Did it have a bathroom? - No.
[Judge Judy] How much was he charging you for rent?
It was to be worked into a 1,350 a month.
Did you sign a lease?
Eventually, yes.
[Judge Judy] What date did you sign a lease?
- [Tracy] Well, our verbal agreement... - [Judge Judy] No, no.
- [Tracy] Okay. - May...
[Judge Judy] Verbal agreements don't count.
- May 1st. - [Judge Judy] May 1st.
And when you saw the apartment in February,
between February and May, was your property in the building?
Yes.
[Judge Judy] Starting when?
February 1st, but I did pay him a storage fee for it.
How much did you pay him as a storage fee?
Eight hundred a month.
[Judge Judy] And where were you living when you paid him a storage fee?
[Tracy] So, I was staying in hotels since February 1st.
And what happened on May 1st?
We signed an official lease...
[Judge Judy] Just a--may I see the lease?
[Judge Judy] Sure, absolutely.
[Mathew] Your Honor, if I may?
It sounds as if this young lady is saying
she paid a monthly rent from February to May.
[Judge Judy] No, she said she paid a storage fee.
[Mathew] Okay. Fair enough.
[Judge Judy] There was no lease and she was living elsewhere.
That's what she says.
- We had made an agreement that... - [Judge Judy] No, no,
this is your agreement
if this is a signed contract.
- Who prepared this lease? - [Mathew] I did.
[Judge Judy] Where did you get it from?
I don't remember, I'm sorry.
You got it from the internet?
[Mathew] My recollection is that this was
a lease that I had used previously and then I amended it for this purpose.
[Judge Judy] Sir, I'm reading this lease. I'm sure you have a copy of it.
I don't have a copy.
[Judge Judy] Would you show this to Mr. Sagarin?
Is that the lease?
- Yes. - [Judge Judy] Okay.
It says the term of the lease and the occupancy.
"The premises shall be used
and occupied exclusively by the tenants
and the occupants above, except as follows...
no part of the premises
shall be used at any time of the term of this agreement
by the tenant for the purpose of carrying on any business,
profession, trade of any kind
or for any purpose other than a private dwelling."
Kevin, show the defendant this.
That's the first clause, sir.
Okay. Yeah.
[Judge Judy] Because, sir, I've read it out loud,
because your position in your defense to this action is
she wasn't supposed to be living there, this was a non-residential building.
It had no CFOs to be used for her business only,
which she had stored from February to May,
- and that this clause is inaccurate. - [Mathew] Oh, I agree. And...
Okay. But this is your problem, sir.
- You prepared the lease... - Correct.
[Judge Judy] ...you signed it
- and you're bound by it. - Yes.
[Judge Judy] Which is a problem for you because if what you wanna tell me is,
well, it may say that but we agreed
that the premises wasn't fit for human habitation.
It had no kitchen, had no bathroom,
it had none of the amenities, the basic amenities
that one might expect to find in a dwelling,
she knew that.
She moved in that way and therefore I'm not responsible
for any of the things that she says I'm responsible for.
Your problem is, sir,
and I think you're a perfectly reasonable man,
you created a document that is hurting you.
- No, I--and I understand that. - That hurt you.
[Mathew] I will say, she had mentioned
right from our very first conversation
that she, she may have intended to live there.
And I said, "I don't know what the upshot of that will be.
I don't know the zoning,
I don't know what the building department will..."
- I said I don't have a... - [Judge Judy] Doesn't matter.
- You were renting... - I said, "That's on you."
[Judge Judy] Just a--no, it's not on her. It's on you.
And I'm sympathetic to you, sir,
but your contract that you created
says to her that she can live there with her son as a dwelling.
Now, when you moved in in May,
it had none of the amenities that you would had had previously
when you lived in a building
that had a spare apartment with your son.
That would be a fair statement.
That's a yes or a no.
- Yes. - [Judge Judy] And you moved in anyway.
- We had verbal agreements. - [Judge Judy] Just--
you can't have a verbal agreement when you have a written contract,
- that's what he's bound by. - Okay.
[Judge Judy] My point is that you knew when you moved in there,
it didn't have any of the amenities
that you and your son needed to live.
And you knew that since February.
They were promised.
[Judge Judy] When you moved in in May,
- were they there? - Right. No.
[Judge Judy] Did you, in May, start to pay the 1,350 a month?
- Yeah. - [Judge Judy] Did you live there in May?
[Tracy] Well, I attempted...
[Judge Judy] Just a second. Did you live there in May?
Yes.
[Judge Judy] Did your son live there in May?
No.
- [Judge Judy] Where did he live? - With his father.
- [Judge Judy] Did you live there in June? - Yes.
- [Judge Judy] Did you pay the 1,350? - [Tracy] Yes.
- [Judge Judy] Did you live there in July? - [Tracy] Yes.
- [Judge Judy] Did you pay the 1,350? - [Tracy] Yes.
[Judge Judy] When did you finally leave?
[Tracy] October 1st.
So May, June, July, August, and September.
For five months,
you stayed in the same place and in the same condition
as you saw it both in February and in May.
- No, there was some upgrades. - [Judge Judy] Okay.
What were the upgrades?
Well, the bathroom was roughed in.
- [Judge Judy] Bathroom. What else? - [Tracy] That's it.
[Judge Judy] Where were you living out of?
[Tracy] An RV in the front yard.
[Judge Judy] Okay. So you had an RV. And the RV had a kitchen?
- [Tracy] Uh-hmm. - "Uh-huh" is not an answer.
[Tracy] I'm sorry. Yes.
[Judge Judy] And it had a place for you to sleep?
[Tracy] Yes.
[Judge Judy] And you had a place for your business?
No.
[Judge Judy] Well, what were you storing there?
[Tracy] Well, storing things for my business
but I couldn't run a business there.
You weren't allowed to run a business there?
Yes, according to that, I guess you're right.
(laughs) According to this, you weren't permitted to run a business there.
- Sure. - [Judge Judy] Okay.
You don't have to bother taking this down. I'm not even hearing it.
If they wanna talk to each other, let 'em go to a counselor.
I am not a counselor, I'm a judge.
[theme music playing]
[announcer] Tracy Karlovich claims her former landlord, Matthew Sagarin,
owes for hotel costs, moving expenses, and a security deposit
after the building she rented was condemned by the city.
[Judge Judy] Now, you lived there on his property.
- Uh-hmm. - [Judge Judy] In your RV
- with your stuff stored in his building. - Uh-hmm.
Did your son ever move into the RV?
[Tracy] No, and the RV was bought because I--
the inside was not livable yet.
So I bought the RV for the sake of having somewhere to be
while things were getting done inside the building.
[Judge Judy] And tell me what happened in May.
[Tracy] So I didn't have the RV in May,
that came in July or so.
[Judge Judy] Well, where were you living in May and June?
[Tracy] So I attempted to live in Medford
but there was no running water or bathroom yet, so I was in hotels.
[Judge Judy] Okay. But when you signed this lease...
[Tracy] Uh-hmm.
[Judge Judy] ...certainly you knew that there was no kitchen,
bathroom, closet, bedroom,
- and you signed this lease. - [Tracy] Yes.
I'm just talking about reality.
He made a big mistake in this lease.
And now I have to know whether I'm speaking to someone
who was a victim of the defendant's fraud
or whether you're an eyes-wide-open business gal
who understood exactly what the scoop was
because, according to you, you had lived in a hotel
from February until May.
Isn't that what she said? She lived in a hotel from February to May?
[Whitney] Yes, between February and May.
[Judge Judy] So from February to May, before you signed this lease,
you were living in a hotel.
What's the name of the hotel?
Um, the Motel Six.
[Judge Judy] And where is that located?
Well, I stayed in different ones, but I have receipts for all of them.
[Judge Judy] I don't need receipts from all of them.
You were staying in the same Motel Six between February and May?
[Tracy] I went to Florida and stayed in a Motel Six where there was work.
[Judge Judy] What did you do in Florida?
[Tracy] Well, because in February...
[Judge Judy] Not a because.
- What were you doing in Florida... - [Tracy] Working
- because I do work--oh, wow. - [Judge Judy] Just a second.
You were in Florida working.
- Who else lives in Florida? - Nobody.
[Judge Judy] Nobody that you know.
- But it's warm in Florida. - [Tracy] Right.
[Judge Judy] What kind of work were you doing in Florida?
The same kind of work I do here.
- [Judge Judy] Which is? - I detail and recondition vehicles.
And where were you living there?
[Tracy] I just rented a place for $700 a month.
[Judge Judy] So you were paying storage space to him.
Uh-hmm.
[Judge Judy] How much was she paying in storage space?
We had agreed on $800 a month and that was paid twice.
[Judge Judy] Okay. So between February and May,
you paid $1,600 to store your stuff,
'cause I believe him.
And $700 a month for your apartment in Florida.
Correct.
[Judge Judy] Now you came back in May.
- Is that when you came back to Medford? - Yes.
- And is that when you bought the RV? - [Tracy] Yeah.
- June or so when I... - [Judge Judy] Okay, okay.
So that's when you bought the RV,
- and you moved the RV onto his property. - Yup.
-[Judge Judy] And you lived there. - Yup. In May, so...
- Oh, just a second. - [Tracy] Wow.
- Just a second. You lived there... - Okay. Yeah.
... (chuckles) on his property.
What I'm saying to you is he
was not smart on giving you this lease that called you
and your son tenants of a particular address
except you were in fact living
at that particular address in your RV.
I mean, the RV wasn't parked on the street,
- it was parked on the property. - Right.
[Judge Judy] Okay. So you were in fact living there.
- Yeah. - [Judge Judy] Great.
That's all I wanna know.
Now we're gonna get to what happened
when--what month did she move out? October?
- October 1st. - 10/01.
You wanna tell me what happened on 10/01?
[Tracy] Uh, the building was condemned prior to that.
- And so... - [Judge Judy] Okay.
The building itself was condemned, so you had to take out your stuff
from the warehouse part of the building
- that had been stored there. - Yes.
When you were there from May until October,
- and your work is detailing cars... - Uh-hmm.
- [Judge Judy] ...were you working? - Yes.
- [Judge Judy] From when to when? - [Tracy] What do you mean?
[Judge Judy] You came back in May, did you start working right away?
- I work all year long. - [Judge Judy] Great.
And were you using tools and equipment that had been stored?
- [Tracy] Yes. - [Judge Judy] So let me understand this,
because I now am trying to figure out what your damages are.
Was the building condemned, sir?
I'm not sure. I got a letter from the building inspector after a...
[Judge Judy] May I see--just a second.
I'll see a copy of the building inspector's letter.
[Mathew] After a long period...
Shh, I didn't ask you anything.
Okay. So he was advised the 11th of August
that the building was condemned.
When did he advise you that the building was condemned?
[Tracy] He didn't advise me, I advised him.
He never responded to any of the notice that...
Oh. How did you know that the building was condemned?
[Tracy] Because I was there.
So they first gave us a notice saying
we had a certain amount of days to bring it up to code.
[Judge Judy] Now just a second.
So you knew before he knew that the building itself...
[Tracy] Well, I'm sure he got--they said they mailed it to him the same day,
but he didn't respond to any of my inquiries.
So the building is condemned, not your RV.
Yes.
[Judge Judy] You were still living
- in the RV on the premises. - Right.
[Judge Judy] Did he ever evict you from the RV?
No.
[Judge Judy] So, what you had to do is move your property
that was stored or used for your business.
[Tracy] Right. And a two-year contract of having...
[Judge Judy] Well, he can't help it if the building is condemned.
[Tracy] Well, he could've helped it.
They gave him a notice of what he could do to the building
to keep it up, but he didn't.
[Judge Judy] Again, he didn't. So what did you do?
[Tracy] So now I had to move...
[Judge Judy] Well, you didn't have to move your RV.
I had to move my RV because there's a city ordinance
that says you can only have it there for so many days.
Oh, I don't know a city ordinance that says
you can only have an RV.
[Tracy] And in the state of Minnesota if it's condemned.
The statute says you have to return at least a deposit
within five days so I can move.
[Judge Judy] Oh, just a second.
What I'm telling you was that you in fact chose to leave and chose
to take your RV elsewhere.
Are you still living in an RV?
No. And I didn't choose to leave, the city made me leave.
I don't know about that.
The city only talks about a building that's being condemned.
[Tracy] And in the state of Minnesota, if I could tell you quickly.
- No, you can't tell me. - Okay.
[Judge Judy] If what you're suggesting is in the state of Minnesota,
you can only keep an RV on your property for so long.
- [Tracy] Uh-hmm. - Is that what you're telling me?
Not. Not at all. But...
Oh, well. That would be interesting,
that's what you started to tell me before.
[Tracy] Well a verbal agreement is legal in the state of Minnesota. It is.
Should've stayed in Minnesota.
[Tracy] Uh-hmm. Okay.
[Judge Judy] Here, this case isn't worth $10,000.
You knew exactly what you were getting.
No, I had promises of what was supposed to be done.
[Judge Judy] You knew-- you knew exactly what you were getting.
[Tracy] I have verbiage and text messages showing
what he promised and what didn't happen.
I have all of the evidence of that if you would like to see it
of him telling me that there would be this, and this, and this done
so that I could run my business and live there.
I have all that evidence if you wanna see it.
Oh, I would like to see anything that he wrote to you.
Sure.
[Judge Judy] That says not to worry by a date certain...
- Yeah. - ...you will be able to live
in the building.
- I'd like to see it. - [Tracy] I have lots of it.
[Judge Judy] No, just...
[Tracy] I mean, just from the agreement on February 1st
is him telling me that...
- No, no, no, no, no, no. - [Tracy] Okay.
Just give it to me.
Don't speak.
- Okay. - [Judge Judy] Just answer my question.
I just wanna be done now obviously.
It's not really going my way and you're--
- I just can't with you. - Well, it's not going your way.
- It was going your way with regard... - Yeah. And the way you're talking to me.
[Judge Judy] Just a second. Don't speak!
[theme music playing]
[announcer] Tracy Karlovich has accused her former landlord, Matthew Sagarin,
of renting her a building that was condemned by the city.
Matthew says Tracy lived on his property
and stopped paying rent for several months.
Okay. The last conversation you had with him,
and this was after the city condemned the building.
"I'll leave clean in 30 days quietly
for the 1350 deposit returned to me in cash,
plus a check written to me of $2,000 extra.
I have to start over again and I have a business.
I think $2,000 on top of the deposit returned to me
is getting off easy since we make a two-year agreement."
Now did Ms. Karlovich give you a deposit?
- Yes. - [Judge Judy] How much?
1,350.
[Judge Judy] Did you return it to her?
- I did not. - Why?
[Mathew] Because she paid the first month's rent
of 1,350 and no rent of any kind...
- The second month as well. - [Mathew] ...or any month after that.
Okay. So she paid the...
[Mathew] My feeling was, and I'm not a lawyer...
[Judge Judy] No, no, no, no. Don't--I don't wanna know your feelings.
- Feelings don't count. - [Mathew] I didn't return the deposit...
Feelings should go to--just a second.
...because she owed me for five months' rent.
- Just a second. Just a second. - Five months' rent?
[Judge Judy] Feelings--don't speak to him.
Feelings don't count.
I deal with specifics.
You didn't return her deposit.
The reason you said you didn't return her deposit is
that she moved in in May
- and paid the first months' rent? - Correct.
Did she pay in June?
- Yes. - Did not.
Just--I'll come to you in a minute.
- Did she pay in July? - [Mathew] Did not.
- [Judge Judy] August? - Did not.
- [Judge Judy] September? - Did not.
- [Judge Judy] I'd like to see proof... - Nor did she move out October 1st.
- [Judge Judy] Shh, just a second. - Yes, I did. What does that mean?
What--you don't have to bother taking this down.
I'm not even hearing it.
If they wanna talk to each other, let 'em go to a counselor.
I am not a counselor, I'm a judge.
Show me proof that you paid him rent,
$1,350 in June,
July, August, and September.
That's all I need. You run a business, you have a bank account.
Well, I don't write a check.
He doesn't give me a receipt, so I don't have that.
But I did pay in June and July, and August
is when we got the first letter
saying that they were gonna condemn the building.
- [Judge Judy] Just a second. - So that's when I didn't pay.
Okay. Well, let us assume that that's true.
I don't--not sure if I believe you.
But let us assume that that's true.
I'm trying to see if you're entitled to your deposit back.
Sure.
[Judge Judy] You received a notice according to you
in August that the building was condemned.
- Not according to me, it's here. - Just--don't speak!
- Sure. - [Judge Judy] August,
you received notice that the building was condemned.
- Was the RV there in August? - [Tracy] Yes.
[Judge Judy] Did you live there in August?
- Yes, in an RV in the front yard. - Was the--uh, don't,
- don't speak. - [Tracy] Okay.
- [Judge Judy] Just answer my question. - I just wanna be done now, obviously.
It's not really going my way and you're--I just can't with you.
[Judge Judy] It's not--well, it's not going your way.
It was going your way with regard...
And the--and then the way you're talking to me...
[Judge Judy] Just a second. It was going your way,
I said $1,350,
did you return her deposit?
Which as far as I'm concerned, you would've been entitled to
because there is no counterclaim for any damage to the property.
But his response is "I didn't return it,"
not claiming damage but he said you stopped paying rent.
And you clearly did.
Stop paying rent for at least, according to you, two months.
You used his premises and did not pay rent for two months.
He didn't do any of the things that he promised that he was gonna do.
[Judge Judy] Okay. This is not the case of being a victim.
- You knew exactly what you were buying. - No, I didn't.
- Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. - I made an agreement with somebody
which is legal in our state.
Yes, I have the lease.
The lease says that you were renting his property
as a residence with no business.
I'm holding him to that lease, and I'm holding you to that lease.
I said to him that was a huge mistake.
I'm holding you to the same lease,
which is you were a tenant, no business, tenant, resident only.
And for the time that you lived at that address,
you lived in an RV at his address,
it's not a public street.
You in fact lived someplace
and had the benefit of being near your tools
where you worked for the months that the lease provided for.
Wow.
So you have no case. It's dismissed. We're done. Thank you very much.
- [Kevin] Court is adjourned. - Thank you, Your Honor.
We had a verbal agreement starting in February and I...
No, I, I think she was honest.
She wanted to run a business and live there.
Completely have lost my business and I have nowhere to live now.
It was a really unfortunate situation.
Because they showed up, it doesn't even matter now.
It's not anything I feel good about.
I mean, it doesn't matter. I don't even wanna talk about it.
Yeah, no question, it was a learning experience.
[Sarah] I think that case was a great demonstration of why non-lawyers
should be very careful when they're drafting legal documents.
And it seemed like he had been familiar with leases,
I think he said he had sort of used a previous lease and amended it.
But such a big clause to miss in the beginning can,
as we just saw, ruin an entire case.
[Judge Judy] Yes, the terms of the lease were probably a lease in an apartment
- that he took at some point. (chuckles) - Uh-hmm.
[Judge Judy] I think when both parties
relied on something that was not factual in a lease...
- Uh-hmm. - ...that a court has to look at it
and say, "Well, what damages did you suffer?"
The lease itself as it was, I was holding him to--
with his feet to the fire, so at least I looked at it.
I, I actually said to him, "Well, you wrote the lease."
And a document is viewed most harshly in the law
against the person who drafted the document.
So, he was in trouble until I pivoted to the plaintiff.
And it was clear that she was thoroughly aware of what was going on.
Even in the documents she prepared for me,
she said, "Well, I want my security deposit back and $2,000."
But she had actually used his premises.
- She used it to live. - And she...
[Judge Judy] I mean, the address is the same.
If somebody was leaving mail, that's where they would leave mail.
So, she was getting mail there, she was living there,
she was cooking there, she was sleeping there.
And she knew of the condition as well,
so it wasn't a deceitful lease that was signed.
- No, no. Right. - [Sarah] She had been to the premises.
She knew the state in which it was in, so...
[Judge Judy] Right. And she appeared to me to be a clever lady.
She went down to Florida during the winter when it was cold.
Anyway, I think that the outcome was fair.
She ate the steak, she lived there, you pay the rent.
Agreed.
[announcer] Want justice? Go to JudyJustice.tv.
[theme music playing]