Did you claim that your daughter was being physically by her father?
- I'm... - That's either yes or no.
To a point.
I really don't understand two people who hate each other
more than they love their child, period.
[announcer] This is Judy Justice.
[announcer] Curtis Brown and Heather Palen
are suing Heather's ex-husband Scott Manis
for impound fees, harassment, and defamation.
[bailiff] Court come to order.
All rise.
Have a seat, please.
Case 2142, Brown-Palen versus Manis.
- Thank you. - You're welcome.
Ms. Palen, this is your former husband?
[Heather] That is correct, Your Honor.
[Judy] How long were you married?
- Eighteen years. - And this is your daughter?
- [Heather] Correct. - [Judy] This your only child?
- With Mr. Manis, it is. - [Judy] Yes.
- Yes. - [Judy] Do you have other children?
One other, yes.
- [Judy] How old? - 32.
[Judy] When did you and Mr. Manis separate?
I moved out of the family home
in March of 2018.
[Judy] And this is your boyfriend.
- [Heather] Correct. - [Judy] I'm going to, in broad strokes,
at least try to reconcile
both the complaint and the answerer in this case.
I assume there was a time when your daughter,
- whose first name is? - Tricia.
[Judy] Tricia was living with you after the separation?
We had a mutual divorce decree of 50-50.
[Judy] And was that honored?
[Heather] Until September 4th of 2020,
Mr. Manis had brought Tricia back to my home.
And while we were out of the home, he had her pack her belongings.
No, okay, let's stop there.
- Tricia, how old are you? - I'm 19, Your Honor.
Okay, and right subsequent to the separation and the divorce,
until September of 2020, you shared custody?
- Correct. - Yes, ma'am.
[Judy] And then Tricia decided she would prefer to live with her father.
- Correct. - [Judy] For whatever reason.
I don't have to go into it because this doesn't really have to do
with who she chose to live with or where she was living.
It has to do with a car. Okay.
So while she was living with Mr. Manis,
Mr. Manis purchased a car?
- Yes, ma'am. - [Judy] For her use.
- [Scott] Correct. - [Judy] In what month
did you purchase a car for her use?
- Month and year. - Oh, boy.
I believe that was probably...
February of 2019, I believe. 18 or 19.
[Judy] Well, let's figure it out.
It was about six months prior to the case with her.
Okay, so September 4th, we had the car.
It would have been probably June or July of the same year.
So you bought her a car
a couple of months before she decided to come and live with you?
- Correct. - Okay, I got it.
She had just obtained her license.
That's okay, I'm just trying to get a timetable.
Right before she decided to come to live with you
and not have 50-50 custody anymore,
- you purchased a car for her? - Correct.
[Judy] And she drove that car in June or July, August.
- Correct. - [Judy] At your house?
At both houses.
She was allowed to go to take the car to their house?
- Correct. - [Judy] When she saw her mother?
- Yes. - [Judy] And then bring it back.
- Correct. - [Judy] There was a time
when you took the car away from her.
When was that?
Probably mid August.
- Mid August of 2020. - [Scott] Correct.
Well, the threat was to take the car away because her grades were slipping.
I didn't actually take the car away.
[Judy] When did you take it away?
[Scott] I actually never did take it away.
Her mother and her mother's boyfriend decided to purchase her another car
to eliminate my threat of taking away the car.
Well, I don't know if that's because
- but they decided to... - [Scott] Correct.
Purchase another car.
And what did you do with the car that you had gotten for your daughter?
- I sold that. - [Judy] When did you sell it?
Probably a month or so after she got the other car.
And the threat was made to your daughter because you were concerned
about how she was doing in school or how she was doing socially.
What were the reasons?
Her grades were slipping.
So I wanted her to concentrate more on her grades rather than...
- [Judy] Grades were slipping. - Correct, at school.
She gave you any reason for that?
She was under a lot of pressure with the divorce.
So you purchased a car, Mr. Brown and Mrs. Palen,
with the understanding, according to your complaint,
that the car would remain in your name,
there would be payments made on the car,
and once the car was paid, it would transfer to Tricia?
Well, one thing led to another.
Things sort of went south.
And according to what I've read in these papers,
you got sort of annoyed,
and the car that you had purchased
was in the physical custody of Tricia,
who was living with her father.
And Mr. Manis caused the car
to be towed and impounded,
which caused you substantial expense
to get the car out of impound,
and he did that maliciously. - Correct.
And you want him to pay those expenses
because you did, in fact, get the car out of Impound,
subsequently sold it.
How much were the impound fees?
$1,565.22 Your Honor.
[Judy] Okay, and Mr. Manis, in defense of that,
acknowledges that he towed the car, your car.
He towed the car, which was at your house?
- Your Honor, I had... - [Judy] Where was the car?
The car at the time was at my house.
[Judy] That's what I'm asking you.
The car was at your house.
You had it towed to impound,
and you had it towed on what date, sir?
The car was impounded on September 4th.
- [Judy] Of what year? - 2020, I believe.
And your defense for doing that?
- [Curtis] Your Honor, he requested... - Just a second.
Your defense for doing that
is that you are merely following Mr. Brown's instructions.
And the police officers.
[Judy] You were following Mr. Brown's instructions.
[Scott] Correct.
[Judy] I see you have a police officer here.
I have several police reports, Your Honor.
About what?
This isn't just about the car. There's several years of harassment.
No, no, I'm dealing with the car.
- [Scott] I understand. - Right now I'm dealing with the car.
So I have, the several officers that came
instructed us to get the car removed from the property.
Well, that may be so.
You could have the car removed from the property
and ask the police to have it deposited in front of their house.
- I understand. - Yeah, you chose not to do that.
May I show you his request to have the car towed?
He offered a reward for the car to be towed.
Just a second.
I want you to tell me where I'm wrong so far.
See what we can all do to make her as unhappy as possible.
So I really don't understand two people who probably,
in their own way, love their child
but hate each other more than they love their child,
which, to me, is absolutely bizarre.
[announcer] Curtis Brown and Heather Palen...
...claim Heather's ex-husband, Scott Manis...
...owes for impound fees.
Scott is counter-suing Heather for filing a false CPS report.
Okay, you had the car towed to an impound.
You did not call him or your ex-wife
the day that you had the car towed to impound.
It was some period of time later if the fees for impound were $1500.
Your excuse for that is you were merely following his request.
His request, that's what you wrote in your answer.
- Is that wrong? - No, Your Honor.
[Judy] Okay, well, so now we know that you didn't notify them
- when you had the car towed. - [Curtis] Your Honor...
Because you could have the car towed to the local police precinct
and called them and said, "Come pick up the car.
It can't be in front of my house anymore."
- Your Honor. - He was actually at my house that night.
Just a second, I didn't ask you anything.
- Sorry - [Judy] Go ahead.
The police, when they came to our house, the car was present.
They acknowledged the presence of the car.
You can't tell me what the police did, sir.
- [Scott] I have the reports, Your Honor. - I would like to see the...
I will see the report.
What I'm asking you is, there were two things.
If you wanted the car out of your custody and you wanted to quietly
and stop the friction, send it back to the people who purchased it,
you could have done that.
You chose not to do that.
Your Honor, the reason I chose not to do that
is because of the, I have several false allegations
from CPS, the police.
I did not choose to have any contact with...
You didn't have to have any contact with them, sir.
- [Scott] In order to... - You don't have
to have any contact with them.
Just like you paid a tow truck company to take the car to impound,
you pay the tow truck company.
You live in a private house or an apartment?
- Private house. - [Judy] You have the tow truck company
drop the car off in front of their house.
Now, after you had the car towed to an impound company,
did you contact them in any way?
- No, I didn't, I was instructed... - [Judy] No, did you ask the police
- to contact them and tell them? - The police knew, yes.
I didn't ask you what the police knew.
You can't tell me what the police knew
So you had the car towed on September 4th.
And when were you notified the car was in impound?
I received a certified letter on September 26th, which was a Friday.
It said to contact them Monday through Friday between 8 and 4.
Just a second, you received that on September 26th?
- Yes. - [Judy] Is that the first notice
that you have had that the car was impounded, correct?
- Yeah, that's true. - [Judy] Okay, so now
the onus is upon you, Mr. Manis.
I want you to prove your defense to me.
Your defense was you were following Mr. Brown's instructions?
- Yes, Your Honor. - Okay, it's all I want to see.
Here you go, Your Honor.
So this says, "$100 reward to anyone that impounds my car."
Call tow truck and tell them to contact me.
- Yes, Your Honor. - [Judy] You know this number?
- Yes. - Yes, well, did you do that?
The tow company sent them a letter on 9/10 of 2020.
And I have the proof of that also, Your Honor.
Yeah, I would like to see what you're looking at.
- That's not on September 4th. - [Scott] No.
- That's not on September 4th. - 9/10 they sent out a notice.
[Judy] Okay, let's see.
Well, this says that attempts were made on 9/21, 9/26 and 10/5.
- That's what it looks like, attempts made. - That's when they
had attempted to deliver, but they did not pick it up.
- So they had no notice? - They had notice.
[Judy] No, they had no notice.
They had no notice.
If they would have gone to their post office box,
they would have had notice.
If I had taller parents, I would have been 5'7".
[laughter]
They had no notice.
Okay, $1,565, that's what you owe them.
It was a malicious act.
Your Honor, this isn't just about the car.
[Judy] This is all, listen to me.
- This is all... - Through CPS.
- If you would please. - Let me-- you have a counterclaim?
- [Scott] Yes, ma'am. - And your counterclaim I'm going to hear.
Right now, you owe Mr. Brown $1,565
because what you did was malicious.
And I don't understand something, you have one child together.
I assume that you don't want to make her miserable.
That when she was born, you said, "Oh, let's see what we can do
over her lifetime to make her as unhappy as possible.
See, what we can all do to make her as unhappy as possible."
So I really don't understand two people who probably in their own way,
love their child, but hate each other more than they love their child,
which to me, is absolutely bizarre.
So right now, because you did a malicious thing
by having their car towed and not giving them a heads up
that you had the car towed to a place that was going to cost them money,
you owe them $1,565.
Now I'm going to hear your claim that they made false charges
- to CPS about you. - Yes, ma'am.
Your Honor, can I say something?
- About what? - [Tricia] The car.
Before you say anything, did I say anything that was inaccurate?
Did your father have the car towed?
The answer is he's acknowledged that.
He had the car towed and put it in a place
where neither your mother or her boyfriend knew where it was,
resulting in they are having to pay fines to get the car out.
Is there anything that I said was wrong?
That is partially incorrect
because I had contacted my mother at the time and asked either...
[Judy] Okay, that's what I'll hear.
You contacted your mother...
I did contact my mother previously, not only on normal messages,
but also on Messenger messages,
including how I wanted either the title or my money back
and that they could have the car before that.
Once the Facebook post was done. Just a second.
All I want you to show me is that you notified
either your mother or Mr. Brown that the car was impounded,
when you notified them.
She also did ask my best friend.
[Judy] All I want-- just a second.
That's all I want. Don't tell me what you said
to your best friend who's not here.
All I want to do is see where you notified your mother
that the car was impounded.
So there is this one about money in my account,
which was about the car.
I don't want to see anything about the car.
I only want to see where you notified your mother or Mr. Brown
that the car was impounded.
- Oh, I don't have the text about it. - [Judy] Okay.
But I did notify her that it was impounded.
[Judy] Well, I don't know that.
And it seems to me you weren't talking to your mother on a regular basis
because there was a lot of acrimony.
If you have it, you have it. If you don't have it, you don't have it.
So, Tricia, you could sit down.
♪
I'm telling you that it is inappropriate.
The act of sharing a bed
with a teenage female child as a father
would give me cause to pause.
♪
[announcer] Defendant Scott Manis
...has accused his ex-wife, Heather Palen
of filing a false report with Child Protective Services.
Now, it was a malicious act to have the car impounded.
There's no question in my mind that if they knew it was impounded,
they would have gotten it out before, $1,565.
Now, you want to show me what information you have?
- [Scott] Yes, ma'am. - With regard to filing a false CPS report.
Correct, I have CPS reports and the police investigators report.
Okay, may I see it, please?
- This report was in September of 2020? - [Scott] Yes, ma'am.
- Okay. - It's been several years
of these reports and just disgusting allegations.
[Judy] Just a second, shh...
So you filed or you made allegations to Child Protective Services?
CPS actually contacted me, Your Honor,
regarding several calls that they had received
for the welfare of my daughter Tricia.
[Judy] In what year?
I was contacted, I believe it was 2019, and again in 2020.
- [Judy] They contacted you? - Correct.
- [Judy] For what? - To do an interview because of the claim
that was made about regarding Tricia's safety
[Judy] That were made by an anonymous source.
[Heather] I don't know who made them, Your Honor.
In Minnesota, you can't make multiple reports by one person.
I cannot call day after day to make reports.
I'm just asking you, did you at some point claim
that you had reason to believe
that your daughter was being in some way physically abused by her father.
- I'm... - [Judy] That's either a yes or a no.
- Yes to a point. - [Judy] Yeah, okay.
And part of that involved a sexual abuse?
That one was not claimed by me.
I did state to CPS that he does have her sleep in his bed with him.
[Judy] Well, I have to tell you something.
Which is a little weird.
I have to tell you something that doesn't seem a little weird.
It seems a lot weird that your daughter,
your daughter acknowledged, sir.
- [Scott] Your Honor. - Your daughter, what I'm telling you is
it is inappropriate for a man to sleep in the same bed
as his 15-year-old daughter.
- Your Honor, we went to a concert. - [Judy] That's my view.
[Judy] And if that's true, there may be a reasonable explanation for it.
She said she was scared, whatever when interviewed.
That's what it says in here.
But I'm telling you, as a mother and a grandmother,
in my view, and I'm not a professional psychiatrist or psychologist,
but it is inappropriate for a teenager
to sleep in the same bed with her father, period.
Maybe some countries, it's appropriate.
Your Honor, we went to a concert and shared a hotel room at a concert.
[Judy] No, that's not what your daughter said.
No, no, no. That's not what your daughter said, sir.
- [Scott] May I finish? - Yes.
When she was going through all the stuff with the divorce and everything,
she came into my room, I was asleep.
She laid next to me.
- I'm asleep. - Listen to me.
I'm not suggesting that anything inappropriate.
- Sir, understand this. - You're absolutely right.
I'm not suggesting that any inappropriate actions happened
between you and your daughter.
I'm telling you that it is inappropriate,
the act of sharing a bed
with a teenage female child as a father
would give me cause to pause.
I would say, you know what?
That's not a good idea, it's especially--
sweetheart, it's especially not a good idea
when parents seem to be feuding.
It's grist for the mill.
You may want to go and see if she's scared say,
"Sweetheart, I'll go and sit in a chair in your room."
- Many times. - [Judy] In your room.
- Many times. - [Judy] But please, this is inappropriate.
Do you understand? It's inappropriate.
Did you read the detective's statements in there?
No, I'm not interested in the detective's statements.
- Obviously. - [Judy] If what your daughter says is true
as a result of the investigation,
then there was reason for somebody to suggest to CPS to do an investigation.
So, listen.
Bottom line, I can't tell the two of you to stop feuding, I can't.
You either hate each other more than you love your daughter.
That's the answer and this court can't fix that.
All I can do is fix $1,565,
which is what you owe them for impound fees.
This case is over, thank you.
[bailiff] This court is adjourned.
♪
I think the judge is wrong.
I am thankful for the judge.
She didn't read all the evidence. Multiple pages weren't read.
He's very good at manipulating others.
I have multiple accusations.
And being the person that, "Oh, pity me, feel sorry for me."
False allegations to the CPS.
My ex-husband decided that he would show me.
No, he's trying to get my daughter her money back or the title to her car.
He actually had the car as of August 24th.
Then he brought her to the house and moved her out on September 4th.
And that's when it all just started going downhill.
She has a lot of hatred.
I believe he's very angry that I divorced him.
Let-- she falls off a bridge,
And he lost the control over me that he had while we were married.
You know, Sarah, I've been doing these family cases for a very, very,
probably 40 plus years, and it always makes me sad that adults;
that the adults, the mothers, father, even with a new boyfriend,
there is a window in life when you feel relatively healthy.
Nothing hurts you.
You don't have a bad back.
You don't have to worry about indigestion.
You can walk around without a walker.
You look pretty reasonable.
And that you will take years away from that good time
to create negativity
around not only yourself, but the people that you love.
I think that's great advice.
I always said to people, both men and women, that it's one journey.
You can take that journey and put as much positive energy into it.
Yeah, I just felt bad for the daughter.
I mean, I know she's growing now, 19, but still 19.
It still hurts your feelings to hear and see that your parents hate each other
more than they care and love about you.
Well, maybe that statement...
- Will make a difference. - [Judy] Will make a difference because
I'm sure it's not true.
- I have a feeling... - But when it's said to you
in the court in front of your child,
hopefully they take some action on it then.
Well, hopefully they'll say, "Boing!"
You know, she has a new boyfriend
and he's got his daughter who's living with him.
They should be happy and they're divorced.
- Close the book. - Close the book.
Her mother and her boyfriend should get a puppy together.
Not until they get married.
Not until they-- but do something.
This is a grown young woman.
Have a healthy adult relationship with your child.
Right, not over a car.
but, you know, teenagers do crazy things for a car.
I think that some teenagers would live with Satan if they bought 'em a car.
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