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He'd gotten a restraining order
against me.
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- Against you?
- I sent him a letter saying that
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I wanted payment.
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This letter threatens
to go to his boss
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to get him fired.
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That's what that says.
That's what you were threatening.
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This is Judy Justice.
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00:00:35,266 --> 00:00:37,033
Herman and Tina Smude...
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{\an8}are suing their former son-in-law,
Dalton MacDonald
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{\an8}for unpaid loans.
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Court come to order.
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All rise.
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Have a seat, please.
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00:00:49,100 --> 00:00:50,100
Hello, Judge.
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00:00:50,166 --> 00:00:52,200
Case 2082,
Smude versus MacDonald.
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- Thank you.
- You're welcome.
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00:00:54,266 --> 00:00:55,433
Mr. and Mrs. Smude,
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the defendant used to be
married to your daughter.
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Yes, Your Honor.
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And according to what I've read,
they were married for about five years?
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Yes.
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The thrust of your claim
is that he owes
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for a couple of things,
for rent and the balance of a truck.
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That's your lawsuit against him.
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I'd like to know, do you know
the date of their marriage?
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Three-sixteen,
two-thousand and eleven.
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And your ex-wife's first name?
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Jacqueline.
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And when did you
and your former wife separate?
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In two-thousand and twenty.
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And you had two children.
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How old are they now?
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They are five and eight.
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And who has custody of the children?
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{\an8}Dalton has physical,
and they have joint custody.
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00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:37,333
Just a second, so he has custody
of the two younger children?
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00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:39,133
- Yes.
- That's a yes.
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How long have you had custody
of the two children?
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Since, uh, July of last year.
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{\an8}At some point during the marriage,
there was a truck purchased.
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00:01:47,633 --> 00:01:50,166
{\an8}- Yes.
- Who purchased the truck?
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00:01:50,233 --> 00:01:53,200
Dalton purchased the truck.
I co-signed for it.
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00:01:53,266 --> 00:01:54,633
And when was it purchased?
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Month and year?
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00:01:55,767 --> 00:01:59,400
June of... 2017.
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00:01:59,467 --> 00:02:00,900
- Was that the only car...
- Yes.
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00:02:00,967 --> 00:02:02,000
- ...that they had?
- Yes.
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00:02:02,066 --> 00:02:03,433
So that was a family car.
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00:02:03,500 --> 00:02:04,834
Yes.
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00:02:04,900 --> 00:02:07,633
And in 2017,
was your daughter working?
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00:02:07,700 --> 00:02:08,700
Yes.
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00:02:08,767 --> 00:02:10,133
So both parents worked?
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00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:13,266
And both parents, I assume,
pooled their money?
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And I assume, made car payments?
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00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:17,200
Yes, Your Honor.
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00:02:17,266 --> 00:02:18,834
- Yes.
- Is that correct? Both.
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And then they separated in 2020,
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and at that time, the children
came to live with you?
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00:02:24,567 --> 00:02:26,100
- Correct.
- And you took the truck?
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00:02:26,166 --> 00:02:28,100
- Yes.
- By agreement
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- with your now ex-wife?
- Yes.
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In 2020, who made the car payments?
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00:02:33,333 --> 00:02:34,433
My husband did.
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- Is that correct?
- Yes.
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{\an8}I made all of the car payments
on that vehicle.
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{\an8}All of them, from the time
it was purchased
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{\an8}until we paid it off.
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00:02:44,433 --> 00:02:47,166
Okay, so what you're telling me is,
from 2017
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you made all the car payments.
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00:02:49,500 --> 00:02:50,867
That's correct.
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00:02:50,934 --> 00:02:53,900
Did your daughter and son-in-law
make any of those payments?
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00:02:53,967 --> 00:02:57,800
Not directly, but they paid
toward the balance of the money
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00:02:57,867 --> 00:02:59,700
- that they...
- You paid for the truck...
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00:02:59,767 --> 00:03:02,467
- That's correct.
- ...since 2017,
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00:03:02,533 --> 00:03:03,633
- since they were married?
- That's correct.
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00:03:03,700 --> 00:03:06,533
- Yes.
- With no reimbursement?
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00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:10,467
I took payments
out of my daughter's check...
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00:03:10,533 --> 00:03:12,633
Just be very, very careful with me, sir.
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00:03:12,734 --> 00:03:14,300
- Yeah.
- I want you to be very careful
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00:03:14,367 --> 00:03:15,934
with me.
I read that, what we call in Yiddish,
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00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,633
bubba misas in here,
that you took money
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00:03:18,700 --> 00:03:19,700
out of your daughter's check.
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00:03:19,767 --> 00:03:21,934
Bubbas misas, it means
grandma's tale,
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00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:23,133
it means it's not true.
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00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:25,800
It means it doesn't sound right to me.
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I read it in here.
Don't try to repeat it here
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because that won't be good for you.
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00:03:30,667 --> 00:03:32,734
Okay, I'm going to believe you
if you show me
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00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:36,166
copies of her checks that you made to her
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00:03:36,233 --> 00:03:38,433
with withdrawals for money she owed you.
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00:03:38,500 --> 00:03:40,433
That's all I want to see.
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- Do you have that?
- I do not.
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Not! Of course not.
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{\an8}Now, he has the truck.
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{\an8}And this was clearly either a gift
or a marital debt.
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00:03:49,367 --> 00:03:50,500
Either one of those two things.
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00:03:50,567 --> 00:03:53,633
It's either a gift or a marital debt.
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00:03:53,700 --> 00:03:57,066
It was a family car
that was used by your daughter,
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00:03:57,133 --> 00:04:00,233
her husband, the grandchildren,
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00:04:00,300 --> 00:04:02,800
with, according to you,
no reimbursement.
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00:04:02,867 --> 00:04:06,967
According to you,
except this ridiculous reimbursement
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00:04:07,033 --> 00:04:08,567
from your daughter's check,
which I don't believe,
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00:04:08,633 --> 00:04:10,367
so I'm not even going into it,
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with no reimbursement, 2017, 2018,
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2019, 2020.
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And when your daughter and the defendant
separated in 2020,
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according to him,
and according to you,
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he took the truck and the children.
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00:04:27,867 --> 00:04:30,033
And that was with her consent or not?
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- Yes, it was.
- With her consent.
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Is that so far right?
That's what you're telling me.
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- It's accurate.
- Right.
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Did you intervene
in the divorce proceeding
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and say that there is money owed,
marital debt owed,
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and part of the marital debt
is this loan on the truck?
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- No. But we...
- No. No.
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- No.
- The answer is no.
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You did not.
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It would also be fair to say
that you don't know how much,
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according to you, she paid for the truck.
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I do, Your Honor.
I have that ledger that I have.
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I would go to her each week and say,
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"Jacqueline, how much can I take
toward the loan?"
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And that's how much I would take off
each week.
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All you have to do, sir,
is show me.
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Otherwise, this is a whole bunch
of nonsense.
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- Yeah.
- It's a marital debt.
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You did not intervene
in the divorce proceedings
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and say, "Listen, this is a debt
that's still outstanding,
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00:05:20,467 --> 00:05:23,734
whatever it is, two-thousand,
three-thousand, four-thousand dollars.
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You didn't do that.
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Now, the only thing that you can say to me
with regard to this truck business
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is if you had...you, careful...
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had an agreement
with the defendant
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{\an8}in 2017
to pay the truck.
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And be very careful, because
what you've told me is
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he didn't make any payments to you
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from 2017, ever.
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- He made some payments.
- Just a second.
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Interesting.
Show me where he made payments.
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00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:56,767
Did you give him a receipt for payments?
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00:05:56,834 --> 00:05:58,700
No. This... we're...
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This is a small town,
and we... I mean...
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00:06:01,333 --> 00:06:03,233
It's not a small town, it's a family, sir.
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00:06:03,300 --> 00:06:05,600
- It's not a small...
- I...I do have the ledger.
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00:06:05,667 --> 00:06:07,066
I'm not interested in the ledger
you created.
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00:06:07,133 --> 00:06:09,533
Self-serving and, therefore, inadmissible.
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00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,400
And created for the purpose
solely of this litigation.
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00:06:12,467 --> 00:06:16,800
And not created at the same time
that the event took place.
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00:06:16,867 --> 00:06:19,800
I might even cut you a little slack
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00:06:19,867 --> 00:06:21,734
if you had a ledger, a book,
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00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:26,166
with entries in it at different times
from 2017
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00:06:26,233 --> 00:06:30,133
in different ink with the day,
how much was paid back,
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00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:31,667
how much was paid back
on the loan.
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00:06:31,734 --> 00:06:33,400
I guarantee you do not have that.
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00:06:33,467 --> 00:06:37,266
You have a very nice piece of white paper
that you created for me. Is that correct?
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00:06:37,333 --> 00:06:38,667
- Yes.
- That is correct.
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00:06:38,734 --> 00:06:41,834
Okay, so I'm not interested in
your ledger. That's not a ledger.
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00:06:41,900 --> 00:06:44,800
That's a document prepared
for the purposes of litigation.
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So, I want you to tell me
what conversation you had,
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00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:50,600
and when, with Mr. MacDonald,
about paying for the truck.
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00:06:53,533 --> 00:06:56,100
- They bought this boat from you.
- Accurate.
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00:06:56,166 --> 00:06:57,800
{\an8}And how much did you sell it to them for?
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00:06:57,867 --> 00:06:59,767
$2,500.
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00:06:59,834 --> 00:07:01,200
Did they pay you for it?
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00:07:01,266 --> 00:07:04,300
No, part of that was put on
the ledger...
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00:07:05,900 --> 00:07:07,467
and part of it was cash.
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00:07:07,533 --> 00:07:08,967
You know I'm not buying your whole story.
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00:07:19,934 --> 00:07:22,100
Herman and Tina Smude
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00:07:22,166 --> 00:07:25,333
{\an8}claim their former son-in-law,
Dalton MacDonald,
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00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:27,066
{\an8}owes for unpaid loans.
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00:07:27,133 --> 00:07:30,600
Now, I want you tell me
what conversation you had,
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00:07:30,667 --> 00:07:33,300
and when, with Mr. MacDonald,
about paying for the truck?
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00:07:33,367 --> 00:07:34,967
That was from the very beginning,
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00:07:35,033 --> 00:07:37,233
- because I was paying other bills.
- No, no... just a sec...
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I don't care whether
you were paying their bills,
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00:07:39,166 --> 00:07:40,800
I understand you were paying
all their bills
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00:07:40,867 --> 00:07:43,633
because they came to live with you
for a brief period of time,
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00:07:43,700 --> 00:07:46,066
because they were evicted,
for whatever reason.
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00:07:46,133 --> 00:07:48,767
And that was sometime
in two-thousand...
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00:07:48,834 --> 00:07:50,233
- Sixteen.
- Sixteen.
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00:07:50,300 --> 00:07:53,000
Okay. So I understand
that you were paying their bills.
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00:07:53,066 --> 00:07:56,867
Sometimes that's what parents do.
They pay their bills.
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00:07:56,934 --> 00:07:59,900
We were paying their bills
'cause they had no checking account.
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00:07:59,967 --> 00:08:01,600
That doesn't matter to me.
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00:08:01,667 --> 00:08:04,700
I want to know
your conversations with...
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00:08:04,767 --> 00:08:06,166
where did it take place,
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00:08:06,233 --> 00:08:07,667
because you're not suing your daughter.
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00:08:07,734 --> 00:08:08,767
You're suing him.
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00:08:08,834 --> 00:08:12,266
The conversation was
when we rented the farm for them,
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00:08:12,333 --> 00:08:14,000
which I know is not with the truck,
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00:08:14,066 --> 00:08:17,166
but the landlord would not
let them rent from him
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00:08:17,233 --> 00:08:18,433
because they had terrible credit.
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00:08:18,500 --> 00:08:20,266
We'll get to the rent later.
Stick with the truck.
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00:08:20,333 --> 00:08:21,667
- Okay.
- Don't talk to him
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00:08:21,734 --> 00:08:23,367
when I'm asking him questions.
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00:08:23,433 --> 00:08:25,066
{\an8}Well, the truck was the same thing.
198
00:08:25,133 --> 00:08:27,133
{\an8}We put that on the ledger, then,
199
00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,600
{\an8}or on the running total,
and they agreed.
200
00:08:30,667 --> 00:08:33,400
{\an8}They both agreed that
they were going to pay us off.
201
00:08:33,467 --> 00:08:35,633
- Okay.
- He came over on Labor Day weekend,
202
00:08:35,700 --> 00:08:39,100
and I showed him the ledger,
which he saw all the time.
203
00:08:39,166 --> 00:08:41,433
No, no, no, no, no, no,
don't tell me what he saw.
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00:08:41,500 --> 00:08:43,133
Don't tell me what he saw.
205
00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:46,100
If what you're saying is
you showed him the ledger
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00:08:46,166 --> 00:08:47,633
when he came over with the boys...
207
00:08:47,700 --> 00:08:49,600
- Yes.
- ...and he was going back
208
00:08:49,667 --> 00:08:50,667
- to Minnesota?
- Right.
209
00:08:50,734 --> 00:08:52,900
And he brought the boys to see you
to say goodbye?
210
00:08:52,967 --> 00:08:53,967
Correct.
211
00:08:54,033 --> 00:08:55,900
Okay.
So, so far, it's very nice,
212
00:08:55,967 --> 00:08:58,200
you have a reasonable relationship
with him,
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00:08:58,266 --> 00:09:01,300
and certainly, your daughter
was clearly overwhelmed
214
00:09:01,367 --> 00:09:04,200
because courts do not
usually split up children,
215
00:09:04,266 --> 00:09:06,633
so they must have felt
that the children's best interests
216
00:09:06,700 --> 00:09:08,967
would be served
if they remained with their father.
217
00:09:09,033 --> 00:09:11,667
Clearly, what happened,
the father came over to you,
218
00:09:11,734 --> 00:09:13,467
to let you say goodbye
to the children,
219
00:09:13,533 --> 00:09:15,600
and when he came over
to let you say goodbye
220
00:09:15,667 --> 00:09:17,934
to the children, let me understand
what you're saying to me.
221
00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:19,300
What you said to him was,
222
00:09:19,367 --> 00:09:22,934
not thank you for taking over
this responsibility,
223
00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,533
your daughter had more children
than she could take care of.
224
00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:27,934
Physically or financially, right?
225
00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:29,233
- Clearly.
- Yes.
226
00:09:29,300 --> 00:09:33,867
Clearly. So, what you want me
to believe, that two nice people,
227
00:09:33,934 --> 00:09:36,800
who took in their daughter,
with her two kids,
228
00:09:36,867 --> 00:09:39,100
and a husband, and bought a truck,
229
00:09:39,166 --> 00:09:41,500
and made arrangements for them
to have some place
230
00:09:41,567 --> 00:09:45,066
to live, that these two nice people,
231
00:09:45,133 --> 00:09:49,233
when he came over, because your daughter
couldn't take care of her children,
232
00:09:49,300 --> 00:09:51,600
and he brought them to say goodbye,
you said, "It's very nice,
233
00:09:51,667 --> 00:09:52,900
I want you to take a look at this ledger
234
00:09:52,967 --> 00:09:54,967
and see how much money you owe me."
235
00:09:55,033 --> 00:09:57,400
That's what you're asking me to believe.
Right?
236
00:09:57,467 --> 00:10:00,967
I'm going to let you live with that
fantasy that I believe that.
237
00:10:01,033 --> 00:10:04,467
And so I did give him the balance
of what he owed me on the rent...
238
00:10:04,533 --> 00:10:06,800
- No, no, no. No...
- ...and on the truck.
239
00:10:06,867 --> 00:10:09,133
Nice. So far...
240
00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,333
He looked me in the eye,
he shook my hand,
241
00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:16,467
and said, "Jerry, I promise
I'm not gonna screw you on this.
242
00:10:16,533 --> 00:10:18,033
I am gonna make those payments."
243
00:10:18,100 --> 00:10:20,166
Make payments for what?
244
00:10:20,233 --> 00:10:22,166
On the rent and on the truck.
245
00:10:22,233 --> 00:10:23,433
Okay.
Did you have that conversation with him?
246
00:10:23,500 --> 00:10:24,834
No, I did not, Your Honor.
247
00:10:24,900 --> 00:10:28,200
The conversation was, when I came up there
the last time,
248
00:10:28,266 --> 00:10:30,400
Jerry was trying to sell his fishing boat,
249
00:10:30,467 --> 00:10:34,033
so I posted it on Facebook,
and I sold it for him.
250
00:10:34,100 --> 00:10:35,767
In what month and year?
251
00:10:35,834 --> 00:10:39,033
That would have been
September of 2020.
252
00:10:39,100 --> 00:10:43,533
After selling the boat,
he gave me $1,200 for helping him...
253
00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:45,033
How much did he sell the boat for?
254
00:10:45,100 --> 00:10:46,333
It was 4,700.
255
00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:48,367
So that was after you'd already moved?
256
00:10:48,433 --> 00:10:49,567
{\an8}- Correct.
- With the children?
257
00:10:49,633 --> 00:10:50,633
{\an8}- Yeah.
- Okay.
258
00:10:50,700 --> 00:10:52,834
{\an8}He helped you sell the boat
for 4,700?
259
00:10:52,900 --> 00:10:54,433
- Just answer my question.
- No.
260
00:10:54,500 --> 00:10:56,500
- Did you give him 1,200?
- No.
261
00:10:56,567 --> 00:11:00,233
{\an8}He bought that boat from me
a year prior to that.
262
00:11:00,300 --> 00:11:01,300
He had it.
263
00:11:01,367 --> 00:11:04,266
- So they bought this boat from you?
- Accurate.
264
00:11:04,333 --> 00:11:07,033
- When?
- That would've been in the spring
265
00:11:07,100 --> 00:11:09,066
of... 2019.
266
00:11:09,133 --> 00:11:11,100
And how much did you sell it to them for?
267
00:11:11,166 --> 00:11:12,700
$2,500.
268
00:11:12,767 --> 00:11:14,033
Did they pay you for it?
269
00:11:14,100 --> 00:11:17,133
No, part of that was put on
the ledger...
270
00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:20,500
And part of it was cash.
271
00:11:20,567 --> 00:11:22,100
You know I'm not buying
your whole story.
272
00:11:22,166 --> 00:11:23,700
I'm not buying your whole story because...
273
00:11:23,767 --> 00:11:26,266
I'm sorry, Your Honor, I'm telling you
- the honest-to-
- God truth.
274
00:11:26,333 --> 00:11:28,200
No, I don't think so.
I don't think that I would have
275
00:11:28,266 --> 00:11:32,100
sold people who had no credit,
who couldn't buy themselves a truck,
276
00:11:32,166 --> 00:11:35,433
so you had to co-sign
for the only means of transportation
277
00:11:35,500 --> 00:11:38,100
that they had,
who couldn't pay for their rent,
278
00:11:38,166 --> 00:11:40,800
couldn't pay their bills
because of their bad credit,
279
00:11:40,867 --> 00:11:43,734
I don't believe this whole scenario
280
00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:46,033
about selling them a leisure boat.
281
00:11:46,100 --> 00:11:48,567
A leisure boat for $2,500.
282
00:11:48,633 --> 00:11:52,233
It is mind-boggling that you would think
that an intelligent person like me
283
00:11:52,300 --> 00:11:54,333
would accept that.
Okay, forget the truck.
284
00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:55,500
You have the truck now?
285
00:11:55,567 --> 00:11:56,667
- Yes.
- Okay.
286
00:11:56,734 --> 00:11:59,767
You haven't finished your story with me.
So, you sold the boat,
287
00:11:59,834 --> 00:12:02,100
{\an8}- and he gave you $1,200.
- Correct.
288
00:12:02,166 --> 00:12:06,433
{\an8}I gave him the $1,200 back,
which made us even on the truck payments,
289
00:12:06,500 --> 00:12:08,800
{\an8}and he gave me the title,
Tina signed it,
290
00:12:08,867 --> 00:12:10,266
{\an8}and then I brought it back
to Minnesota
291
00:12:10,333 --> 00:12:12,033
{\an8}- and put it in my name.
- Okay.
292
00:12:12,100 --> 00:12:13,100
Who signed it?
293
00:12:13,166 --> 00:12:14,266
Tina signed it.
294
00:12:14,333 --> 00:12:15,734
My name was on it as well.
295
00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:16,967
- Your name?
- Yes.
296
00:12:17,033 --> 00:12:19,433
- As joint owners with him?
- Yep.
297
00:12:19,500 --> 00:12:20,867
- Co- sign.
- Oh. Interesting.
298
00:12:20,934 --> 00:12:24,000
- In what month did... Mrs. Smude...
- Yes.
299
00:12:24,066 --> 00:12:25,266
sign over the car to you?
300
00:12:25,333 --> 00:12:28,200
The same, uh, day that I gave Jerry
the $1,200,
301
00:12:28,266 --> 00:12:29,433
so it would've been in September.
302
00:12:29,500 --> 00:12:31,233
Now do you remember the $1,200?
303
00:12:31,300 --> 00:12:34,934
No. It was 1,000 that he paid
toward the loan
304
00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,834
when he sold...
when I sold the boat for him.
305
00:12:37,900 --> 00:12:38,900
- Okay.
- And it was his boat
306
00:12:38,967 --> 00:12:40,166
that I sold for him.
307
00:12:40,233 --> 00:12:43,033
Okay.
You did not create this as a marital debt,
308
00:12:43,100 --> 00:12:44,967
it absolutely was a marital debt,
309
00:12:45,066 --> 00:12:48,266
so I'm dismissing that portion
of your claim that deals with the truck.
310
00:12:48,333 --> 00:12:49,934
Now, let's deal with the rent.
311
00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,433
The rent that you're talking about
was rent in what property?
312
00:12:53,500 --> 00:12:55,533
The farmhouse that they rented.
313
00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:57,767
- From when to when?
- In 2016.
314
00:12:57,834 --> 00:12:59,433
November 2020.
315
00:12:59,500 --> 00:13:02,500
And over the years that they lived there,
316
00:13:02,567 --> 00:13:04,166
they lived there as a couple.
317
00:13:04,233 --> 00:13:05,834
- Yes.
- The rent was paid
318
00:13:05,900 --> 00:13:08,066
- to a landlord?
- Correct.
319
00:13:08,133 --> 00:13:09,900
- By you?
- Yes.
320
00:13:09,967 --> 00:13:11,500
- Is that right?
- Correct.
321
00:13:11,567 --> 00:13:15,133
And they, your daughter, and her husband,
322
00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,734
would give you cash, checks,
or whatever...
323
00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:20,266
- Cash, usually.
- ...to cover the rent.
324
00:13:20,333 --> 00:13:21,333
- Yep.
- Yes.
325
00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,100
And how much did they give you
to cover the rent?
326
00:13:24,166 --> 00:13:27,100
When we started out, rent was $800
327
00:13:27,166 --> 00:13:30,100
and later on he raised it to 900.
328
00:13:30,166 --> 00:13:32,867
We never made it a set amount each week,
329
00:13:32,934 --> 00:13:34,333
they gave us what they could.
330
00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:36,500
{\an8}And we've done this before in the past,
331
00:13:36,567 --> 00:13:38,133
{\an8}and they've always paid us back.
332
00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,934
Well, then you should've sued them
and listed all of this as a marital debt
333
00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:44,767
in the process of their divorce,
so it could all have been...
334
00:13:44,834 --> 00:13:47,066
We're handling Jacqueline
in another way.
335
00:13:47,133 --> 00:13:48,233
You what?
336
00:13:48,300 --> 00:13:51,033
We're handling Jacqueline alone.
337
00:13:51,100 --> 00:13:52,433
Uh...
338
00:13:52,500 --> 00:13:54,367
I don't understand what that means.
339
00:13:54,433 --> 00:13:56,633
Well, you're saying it was marital.
340
00:13:56,700 --> 00:13:57,767
Just a second.
Does that mean
341
00:13:57,834 --> 00:14:00,633
that you've already
served your daughter with a summons?
342
00:14:00,700 --> 00:14:01,900
- Not yet, no.
- Of course not.
343
00:14:01,967 --> 00:14:04,400
Of course not.
And you did know when they were divorcing?
344
00:14:04,467 --> 00:14:06,066
- Yeah. Yeah.
- You did know when they were divorcing?
345
00:14:06,133 --> 00:14:08,433
I'm not buying anything of this lawsuit.
346
00:14:08,500 --> 00:14:11,600
Most of which, at least the rent part,
is totally stale.
347
00:14:11,667 --> 00:14:14,633
I'm just curious, Mr. and Mrs. Smude.
348
00:14:14,700 --> 00:14:17,100
Somebody wants to answer this question
for me.
349
00:14:17,166 --> 00:14:20,867
Mr. MacDonald has custody
of your two young grandsons.
350
00:14:20,934 --> 00:14:23,000
- Yes.
- Who I assume
351
00:14:23,066 --> 00:14:25,266
that you were close to, because
they lived with you in your house.
352
00:14:25,333 --> 00:14:27,900
- They came back to live with us.
- Mm?
353
00:14:27,967 --> 00:14:30,133
The two boys came back
to live with us.
354
00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:31,233
From when to when?
355
00:14:31,300 --> 00:14:36,433
December of 2021
until July of 2022,
356
00:14:36,500 --> 00:14:37,500
six months we had them.
357
00:14:37,567 --> 00:14:38,934
Just a second, 2022.
358
00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,500
- Was there a court proceeding?
- No.
359
00:14:41,567 --> 00:14:44,033
But then in July,
they went back with their father?
360
00:14:44,100 --> 00:14:45,266
That's accurate.
361
00:14:45,333 --> 00:14:46,767
And they've been with their father since?
362
00:14:46,834 --> 00:14:47,834
Yes.
363
00:14:47,900 --> 00:14:50,133
Okay, so the boys lived with you
364
00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,467
- for six, seven months?
- Right.
365
00:14:52,533 --> 00:14:55,867
Was that an acrimonious transfer?
366
00:14:58,567 --> 00:15:00,400
{\an8}That's when you meant when you said
367
00:15:00,467 --> 00:15:03,633
"Any employer that has gone through
all that paperwork
368
00:15:03,700 --> 00:15:07,367
and red tape as I have
will do anything to avoid it."
369
00:15:07,433 --> 00:15:10,000
The "anything" is firing the employee.
370
00:15:21,500 --> 00:15:23,667
Herman and Tina Smude
371
00:15:23,734 --> 00:15:27,133
{\an8}are accusing their former son-in-law,
Dalton MacDonald,
372
00:15:27,300 --> 00:15:30,000
{\an8}of refusing to pay back loans.
373
00:15:30,066 --> 00:15:35,567
Was that an acrimonious transfer
or was it something that you both...
374
00:15:35,633 --> 00:15:39,467
What happened there was,
he called my husband, to see if...
375
00:15:39,533 --> 00:15:41,367
No, no, no, don't tell me
what he said to your husband.
376
00:15:41,433 --> 00:15:42,800
- Okay, you can tell 'em.
- I will tell you, then.
377
00:15:42,867 --> 00:15:44,867
He called me in December,
378
00:15:44,934 --> 00:15:47,433
and asked me if I would please
take the two boys.
379
00:15:47,500 --> 00:15:51,900
I told him I will take 'em, Dalton,
if you start making regular payments...
380
00:15:51,967 --> 00:15:56,400
Oh, well, that's... I'm not... I'm...
We're out of the money business now, sir.
381
00:15:56,467 --> 00:15:59,266
What you're saying is, from 2017,
382
00:15:59,333 --> 00:16:01,467
when the children,
who are in his custody,
383
00:16:01,533 --> 00:16:04,367
your daughter may have been there,
but they were in joint custody,
384
00:16:04,433 --> 00:16:06,533
and then he maintained custody
of the children,
385
00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,033
and during the time
he maintained custody of the children,
386
00:16:09,100 --> 00:16:13,600
there was no question whatsoever
that he was not paying you back money.
387
00:16:13,667 --> 00:16:16,400
He did not make any payments to you.
388
00:16:16,467 --> 00:16:18,900
Occasional, here and there,
we don't keep records.
389
00:16:18,967 --> 00:16:21,433
All of a sudden, now you have
the boys with you,
390
00:16:21,500 --> 00:16:25,667
and then in July, he comes back
and he takes the boys back.
391
00:16:25,734 --> 00:16:28,900
All I asked you was whether
that was an acrimonious,
392
00:16:28,967 --> 00:16:30,767
which is an unpleasant,
393
00:16:30,834 --> 00:16:34,166
or a harmonious transfer
of the children.
394
00:16:34,233 --> 00:16:36,600
Mr. Smude, was that in July?
395
00:16:36,667 --> 00:16:40,533
In July, it was acrimonious because
at that point,
396
00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:42,700
he'd gotten a restraining order
against me.
397
00:16:42,767 --> 00:16:44,500
{\an8}- Against you?
- Against me,
398
00:16:44,567 --> 00:16:45,967
{\an8}while we had the children,
399
00:16:46,033 --> 00:16:48,900
{\an8}because I sent him a letter
400
00:16:48,967 --> 00:16:52,467
{\an8}saying that I wanted payment,
401
00:16:52,533 --> 00:16:55,367
{\an8}and he went and got
a restraining order against me,
402
00:16:55,433 --> 00:16:57,133
{\an8}because they took that
as a threat.
403
00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:59,800
I'd like to see the letter, please, Kevin.
404
00:17:07,567 --> 00:17:10,266
"And this is what needs to happen
moving forward."
405
00:17:10,333 --> 00:17:11,433
That's correct.
406
00:17:11,500 --> 00:17:14,300
"You need to mail me $200
on the first of every month
407
00:17:14,367 --> 00:17:18,233
and $200 on the 15th starting
March 1st, 2022.
408
00:17:18,300 --> 00:17:20,433
If I do not get these payments on time,
409
00:17:20,500 --> 00:17:22,967
the following will happen..."
which is, you know,
410
00:17:23,033 --> 00:17:25,000
you could say I'm going to sue you, right?
411
00:17:25,066 --> 00:17:26,433
- Right.
- I'm gonna sue you.
412
00:17:26,500 --> 00:17:27,500
But that's not what you say.
413
00:17:27,567 --> 00:17:30,800
You say, "I will go to your boss
and talk to them
414
00:17:30,867 --> 00:17:33,100
about garnishing your wages.
415
00:17:33,166 --> 00:17:36,000
Any employer that has gone through
all the paperwork
416
00:17:36,066 --> 00:17:39,567
and red tape as I have
will do anything to avoid it."
417
00:17:39,633 --> 00:17:41,700
So, that's a threat.
418
00:17:41,767 --> 00:17:43,934
What you're saying is,
I'm gonna call your boss
419
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,734
and tell him that I'm going to sue you,
420
00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,166
and then your boss is gonna
have to go through
421
00:17:50,233 --> 00:17:54,500
all the red tape of what it means
to have a garnish on your salary.
422
00:17:54,567 --> 00:17:57,400
You have to go through accounting,
and they have to deduct it,
423
00:17:57,467 --> 00:17:59,800
and no boss wants to do that.
424
00:17:59,867 --> 00:18:01,467
Which is in effect saying,
so either you pay me,
425
00:18:01,533 --> 00:18:03,033
or your boss is gonna fire you.
426
00:18:03,100 --> 00:18:04,700
That's what you meant when you said,
427
00:18:04,767 --> 00:18:08,700
"Any employer that has gone through
all that paperwork and red tape
428
00:18:08,767 --> 00:18:11,467
as I have will do anything
to avoid it."
429
00:18:11,533 --> 00:18:14,300
The "anything" is firing the employee.
430
00:18:14,367 --> 00:18:16,533
I don't think you can legally
fire somebody for that.
431
00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:17,600
Just a second.
432
00:18:17,667 --> 00:18:19,333
Whether you can legally
fire them or not,
433
00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:20,600
that's what you were threatening.
434
00:18:20,667 --> 00:18:21,834
That's what that says.
435
00:18:21,900 --> 00:18:23,934
So he got an order of protection
against you.
436
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:25,200
- Correct.
- And?
437
00:18:25,266 --> 00:18:30,000
{\an8}Then, I didn't fight it, because I didn't
anticipate having any conversations
438
00:18:30,066 --> 00:18:32,033
{\an8}or contact with him.
439
00:18:32,100 --> 00:18:35,266
When you wrote this letter,
you had the boys.
440
00:18:35,333 --> 00:18:36,467
- Yes.
- Right.
441
00:18:36,533 --> 00:18:37,533
- Not before.
- No.
442
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:41,066
Not before, and he had had the boys
for some time alone.
443
00:18:41,133 --> 00:18:42,300
Pretty much.
444
00:18:42,367 --> 00:18:43,834
He had had the boys for some time alone.
445
00:18:43,900 --> 00:18:44,900
Okay.
446
00:18:44,967 --> 00:18:47,600
Let's go back to my original question,
which was,
447
00:18:47,667 --> 00:18:52,567
when the boys went back to their father,
was it acrimonious or harmonious?
448
00:18:52,633 --> 00:18:55,300
- It was not good.
- Well, so tell me
449
00:18:55,367 --> 00:18:57,200
your version of what happened.
450
00:18:57,266 --> 00:19:00,166
The reason it was acrimonious is because
451
00:19:00,233 --> 00:19:03,367
he knew very well that once we got 'em,
we'd put 'em on a strict schedule.
452
00:19:03,433 --> 00:19:06,400
Eight o'clock, brush your teeth,
8:15, pajamas,
453
00:19:06,467 --> 00:19:07,633
8:30, bed.
454
00:19:07,700 --> 00:19:08,834
Where was your daughter living
at this time?
455
00:19:08,900 --> 00:19:10,400
- With us.
- Yuh!
456
00:19:10,467 --> 00:19:12,533
Just a second.
If you're going to interrupt him,
457
00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:14,300
- 'cause you wanna get it out,
- I'm sorry.
458
00:19:14,367 --> 00:19:15,834
that's not gonna be good for you.
459
00:19:15,900 --> 00:19:18,433
- She had a room at our house...
- Just a second,
460
00:19:18,500 --> 00:19:20,066
so your daughter was living with you.
461
00:19:20,133 --> 00:19:24,133
So what you're telling me was
your daughter was in the wind someplace.
462
00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:25,800
- Accurate.
- Okay.
463
00:19:25,867 --> 00:19:29,400
You know, you had her for a long time.
He only had her for five years.
464
00:19:29,467 --> 00:19:33,100
And I can understand the sadness
if your daughter is in the wind,
465
00:19:33,166 --> 00:19:34,834
and not being responsible, sir.
466
00:19:34,900 --> 00:19:37,500
But that doesn't mean he has to shoulder
all the burden.
467
00:19:37,567 --> 00:19:41,400
Right now he's shouldering all the burden
of supporting... of supporting
468
00:19:41,467 --> 00:19:43,734
the two children,
which I assume you're doing,
469
00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:45,400
they're living with you?
And s...are you working?
470
00:19:45,467 --> 00:19:47,767
- Yes, I am.
- And he's working.
471
00:19:47,834 --> 00:19:48,934
Your daughter is not?
472
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:50,266
She's working two jobs.
473
00:19:50,333 --> 00:19:53,100
- Oh. If she's working two jobs,
- She always has.
474
00:19:53,166 --> 00:19:54,834
- why was she in a room?
- She wasn't renting,
475
00:19:54,900 --> 00:19:56,300
she was living there free.
476
00:19:56,367 --> 00:19:58,567
Okay.
So now, let's back to
477
00:19:58,633 --> 00:20:03,166
this acrimonious transfer
of the children back in July.
478
00:20:03,233 --> 00:20:05,767
- Dalton called me, or called the kids...
- Okay,
479
00:20:05,834 --> 00:20:07,700
- so he called the children...
- after bedtime.
480
00:20:07,767 --> 00:20:09,233
- Okay, and?
- Called my wife's phone
481
00:20:09,300 --> 00:20:11,900
four times, ring, ring, ring, ring,
and she wouldn't answer,
482
00:20:11,967 --> 00:20:13,567
'cause the kids were in bed.
483
00:20:13,633 --> 00:20:16,266
And then he called my phone, twice.
484
00:20:16,333 --> 00:20:18,900
The second time, I have an old flip phone,
485
00:20:18,967 --> 00:20:21,867
I flipped it, walked in,
'cause now I hear the boys are awake,
486
00:20:21,934 --> 00:20:23,300
I let him talk to the boys.
487
00:20:23,367 --> 00:20:25,800
And then I took the phone back,
488
00:20:25,867 --> 00:20:28,867
and I said some naughty things to him
and hung it up.
489
00:20:28,934 --> 00:20:30,767
Why did you say naughty things to him for?
490
00:20:30,834 --> 00:20:32,900
Because I was very angry at him...
491
00:20:32,967 --> 00:20:36,633
Can I use some swear words
that I used when I told him?
492
00:20:36,700 --> 00:20:39,500
No, I assume you used
some terrible words, but I want...
493
00:20:39,567 --> 00:20:41,066
I just told him, don't call me anymore.
494
00:20:41,133 --> 00:20:43,500
Is there any reason that you discussed
with your wife
495
00:20:43,567 --> 00:20:45,500
why she didn't answer the phone?
496
00:20:45,567 --> 00:20:49,166
Because the boys were already in bed.
He had done that before.
497
00:20:49,233 --> 00:20:50,900
You already told me
that you heard the boys,
498
00:20:50,967 --> 00:20:53,900
- so you took the phone into his room.
- No, after the phone calls, they woke up.
499
00:20:53,967 --> 00:20:56,367
Is what you're telling me that
that's the first time
500
00:20:56,433 --> 00:20:58,900
that he tried to talk to the boys
501
00:20:58,967 --> 00:21:02,333
that you or your wife
didn't answer the phone?
502
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:06,900
I think it probably happened
once or twice prior, and then we told him
503
00:21:06,967 --> 00:21:09,066
- don't do it anymore.
- Okay. Fine.
504
00:21:09,133 --> 00:21:10,533
Though this time
we were fed up.
505
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:12,533
Fine.
So, that's when he said,
506
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:14,467
- "I'm coming to take the boys"?
- No.
507
00:21:14,533 --> 00:21:15,533
- No.
- Well, when did he say
508
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:16,934
he was coming to take the boys?
509
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,200
Not until July.
510
00:21:19,266 --> 00:21:22,800
Jacqueline told us
that Dalton was gonna be taking the kids
511
00:21:22,867 --> 00:21:24,900
- once they got out of school
- Okay.
512
00:21:24,967 --> 00:21:26,734
I'm gonna take the pain
out of this case,
513
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:28,934
and I'm gonna do it relatively quickly.
514
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:32,800
I think, Mr. and Mrs. Smude,
that this lawsuit was very ill-advised.
515
00:21:32,867 --> 00:21:35,233
The defendant doesn't owe you any money.
516
00:21:35,300 --> 00:21:37,300
He doesn't owe you any money
because if there was money owed,
517
00:21:37,367 --> 00:21:39,667
it was a marital debt,
and it should've been take up
518
00:21:39,734 --> 00:21:41,033
at the time of the divorce,
519
00:21:41,100 --> 00:21:44,567
listed as a marital debt,
and then it could've been fixed
520
00:21:44,633 --> 00:21:47,200
by the judge who approved the divorce,
521
00:21:47,266 --> 00:21:50,867
how much and by whom is owed money.
522
00:21:50,934 --> 00:21:52,266
You chose not to do that.
523
00:21:52,333 --> 00:21:56,500
It was only after a very acrimonious
set of circumstances,
524
00:21:56,567 --> 00:21:59,100
roughly five and a half years later,
525
00:21:59,166 --> 00:22:00,934
after this truck was purchased,
526
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:05,700
that you chose to exercise any
prerogatives with regard to a debt.
527
00:22:05,767 --> 00:22:10,333
Except this letter, which threatens
to go to his boss,
528
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:14,200
to get him fired,
if you don't start making payments,
529
00:22:14,266 --> 00:22:17,834
and that was only after the two children
came to live with you,
530
00:22:17,900 --> 00:22:19,834
and were sort of overwhelmed.
531
00:22:19,900 --> 00:22:21,867
You have to understand.
Mr. MacDonald,
532
00:22:21,934 --> 00:22:25,433
who I think probably is trying,
he's got the two boys.
533
00:22:25,500 --> 00:22:27,500
It got very complicated,
but it's not a lawsuit,
534
00:22:27,567 --> 00:22:29,266
and I would make nice with him.
535
00:22:29,333 --> 00:22:33,133
He's got two children that you probably
want to have some connection with,
536
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,734
and this lawsuit certainly
doesn't help that.
537
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:37,100
Well, anyway, for all the reasons
that I've stated,
538
00:22:37,166 --> 00:22:38,867
- Your Honor...
- your lawsuit's dismissed.
539
00:22:38,934 --> 00:22:40,033
- We're finished.
- Thank you, Your Honor.
540
00:22:40,100 --> 00:22:41,800
This court is adjourned.
541
00:22:41,867 --> 00:22:45,233
He owes us that money,
he admitted that he owed us the money...
542
00:22:45,300 --> 00:22:46,734
{\an8}I think the judge was absolutely correct.
543
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,300
He promised he was gonna
pay us the money back.
544
00:22:49,367 --> 00:22:50,767
I don't owe Jerry any money...
545
00:22:50,834 --> 00:22:52,967
Kids are irresponsible,
546
00:22:53,033 --> 00:22:56,133
have no sense of honor, duty,
547
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,000
respect, responsibility, nothin'.
548
00:22:59,066 --> 00:23:02,667
Really should be a family thing,
and maybe one day it can go back to it.
549
00:23:03,300 --> 00:23:07,066
This is a great case that explains
why a lot of cases in civil court
550
00:23:07,133 --> 00:23:09,900
have a statute of limitations
before you can bring
551
00:23:09,967 --> 00:23:11,967
a certain kind of case, because here,
552
00:23:12,033 --> 00:23:13,567
it was hard for us to understand
553
00:23:13,633 --> 00:23:17,166
why they would not have requested
that money back earlier.
554
00:23:17,233 --> 00:23:19,800
So, when you ask for it now,
years down the line,
555
00:23:19,867 --> 00:23:21,266
where so much has happened,
556
00:23:21,333 --> 00:23:24,266
court's not so likely to feed into that
557
00:23:24,333 --> 00:23:27,066
because you don't know what
the real motivation is behind it.
558
00:23:27,133 --> 00:23:30,667
I agree, I think
it's really foolish of them.
559
00:23:30,734 --> 00:23:32,600
- Mm-hmm.
- Especially since
560
00:23:32,700 --> 00:23:35,633
their ex-son-in-law has total custody
561
00:23:35,700 --> 00:23:37,500
of these two little boys,
562
00:23:37,567 --> 00:23:39,300
for them not to maintain
563
00:23:39,367 --> 00:23:42,000
a reasonable relationship with him.
564
00:23:42,066 --> 00:23:44,767
It was a good showing, though,
that if you do give money
565
00:23:44,834 --> 00:23:47,633
to your daughter, son,
and their significant other,
566
00:23:47,700 --> 00:23:50,867
and they do get divorced,
you should follow that divorce proceeding,
567
00:23:50,934 --> 00:23:53,233
- so if you do have a claim...
- A legitimate debt.
568
00:23:53,300 --> 00:23:54,400
- A legitimate debt or claim...
- List it.
569
00:23:54,467 --> 00:23:56,200
then, that's the place
where you should bring it.
570
00:23:56,266 --> 00:23:57,533
- Absolutely.
- Mm- hmm.
571
00:23:58,900 --> 00:24:00,900
Are you having a family dispute?
572
00:24:00,967 --> 00:24:03,300
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