You lived with him in his home?
- Yes, ma'am. - There was a dispute.
I received partial or no rent payments.
- As a result of this harassment? - That's correct.
Ridiculous. Do you know my husband harasses me every day?
This is Judy Justice.
Mark Mikelonis is suing his former roommate Christopher Robertson
for rent, a security deposit and stolen property.
Court come to order. All rise.
Have a seat, please.
Hello, Judge. Case 2066. Mikelonis versus Robertson.
- Thank you. - You're welcome.
Mr. Robertson, how long had you been living
in your apartment prior to renting a room to the plaintiff?
I believe it was about three years.
You had been living there by yourself?
No, I had roommates previously.
When did the plaintiff move in?
I believe that it was January 1st of 2017.
- 2017? - It may have been 2018.
- It was the first, I forget. - It was 2018.
That's correct.
How long did he live there with you?
He lived there with me until September of 2021.
- So far, that correct, sir? - Yes, ma'am.
So now let me understand this lawsuit.
Mr. Robertson lived in his apartment for three years.
You answered an ad for a room.
You lived with him in his home as a tenant
from January 2018 until September 2021.
- - - Correct. At that time there was a dispute.
We will get into that in a moment.
There was a dispute. During part of that time,
Mr. Mikelonis, you did not pay rent.
- Is that correct? During COVID? - That's correct.
For what period of time did you not pay rent?
Um, there was, I-- Uh...
Give me how many months did not pay rent.
There was...
You don't have to think out loud.
How many months between January of 2018
and September 2021 did you not pay rent?
- - - Give me a number that's a number. - There was four months.
Some--some months I paid partial rent,
So there were four months that I did not pay any rent.
Four months, no rent.
And how many months did you pay partial rent?
Uh, I believe that would have been four or three.
So for seven months, you did not pay your rent.
Paying partial rent is not rent.
Now, my question to you, Mr. Robertson, is this is an apartment that you rent.
- Yes. - Or rented
Mm-hmm.
From January 2018 until September 2021,
was your rent current?
My portion of the rent was current.
What do you mean, "your portion"?
My portion that I was responsible for.
No, it's your apartment.
You're responsible for the whole thing, Mr. Robertson.
- Yes. - Okay.
You're responsible for the whole rent.
And if what you chose to do was to say to your landlord,
"Listen, I have a roommate. I'm just paying my portion of the rent.
- My roommate isn't paying his," - Right.
- then your rent wasn't paid. - Yes.
And I assume that your rent wasn't paid for the same period of time
that he didn't pay you his portion of the rent.
Yes.
Was it for any period of time greater than that?
Greater than the four months or the seven months that he didn't pay rent?
I went through my bank statements, and they went back until...
Um, I believe, July of 2020,
and that's as far back as my bank app lets me go.
- Okay. - There were more months than that
that I received partial
or no rent payments for...
- From him. - From him.
I'm asking you about your landlord.
If you didn't pay your landlord, you're telling me your landlord
didn't file an eviction against you?
There were several months that he did,
um, pay his full rent,
and so that would have meant that the entire
- rent for that period-- - Well, I know,
but if the rent was not paid, did your landlord ever
serve you an eviction notice?
No. There was an eviction moratorium
in Alameda County at that point.
For unpaid rents due to COVID.
Gotcha.
So that-- would it be a fair statement that you both took advantage of that?
He took advantage of it, and so did you.
- I-- - Um...
I wouldn't say that it was, uh, me trying to take advantage.
I would just say it was my inability to cover the entire rent.
Your portion as well as his.
My portion was always covered.
- Your portion was covered. - Yes.
Okay. Now, Mr. Mikelonis,
when did you move from month and year?
It was September of 2021.
And when did you leave there?
I believe it was the third or fourth week of August of 2021.
So you both left the place at about the same time?
Um, I left involuntarily, but yes.
Well, you left involuntary, because that's what this case is about.
Okay, so now I have the structure of it.
Do you understand the structure of it?
- I understand. - You understand the structure of it?
I just want to make sure that people out there watching
understand the structure of it.
So you were the rentor, and you had an argument,
it resulted in a protective order, for somehow, some genius
put him out of his own apartment because of these protecti--
You weren't in the hospital for anything, were you, as a result of an assault?
- - - No. - No.
You have no medical records there being treated for any injury.
- It was harassment. - Just a minute.
Do you know my husband harasses me every day?
Every day. I couldn't think of evicting him.
I mean, you do other things.
So the answer is you were never treated for any illness.
You were never treated for anxiety at a hospital
as a result of this harassment.
As a result of your allegations, let us say, of harassment,
Mr. Robertson was ejected from his own home,
from which you had not been paying rent.
Your portion that you were supposed to pay
contractually with him for months because of COVID.
Am I getting this story right? So far?
I'm not finished yet, but so far, is there anything that I said was wrong?
Um, I think that's pretty close. I mean--
Okay, so that's pretty close.
And now what you are seeking here is,
should I say "basically" and I hate that word,
basically, but it's appropriate in this case.
So all of those haters out there,
"Ah, she used use basically," I don't care.
It's appropriate here.
And I put in the protective order that they were living with me.
But they were moving.
No, no, no. "They were living with you"?
You were living with them.
Well, yeah, we were living together.
No, you were living with the defendant.
He wasn't living with you.
♪
Mark Mikelonis
claims his former roommate, Christopher Robertson,
owes for rent, a security deposit and stolen property.
Christopher is countersuing, claiming Mark owes him for rent.
Now, what you're claiming in your lawsuit is that
after a review of the copy of the underlying lease,
you found that you are paying the vast majority of the rent.
Correct.
And so you want a return of that money.
That's correct.
Under what theory in the law?
Well, basically that he defrauded me.
No, no, now you can't use a "basically."
- - - Okay. Okay.
I want to know what theory is there in the law
that says if I own a building and I lease to someone
the whole building for $10,000.
And then I find somebody who is prepared to pay me--
And I have the first two floors of the building.
Third floor is vacant.
I find somebody who's willing to pay me $9,000 a month
just for the top floor.
That makes me a good business person.
But unless there is some thing that prohibits him
- from doing that-- - There is, Your Honor.
- Show me. - There's a clause in the lease.
- No, just show me. - Okay.
- I'm a lawyer. I can read a little. - So the sub--
The sub lease that I agreed to with him
incorporates the entirety of this--
Just a second. I'd just like to see it, please, sir.
- Okay. - I'd just like to see it.
I assume you've highlighted what you want me to read.
- Correct. - Okay.
So what you're pointing to is that the landlord, his landlord,
was not advised that you were subletting.
No.
Well, that's why-- "signed by every tenant."
So that was one of the things, because if you look at the second lease,
the one that was altered by Christopher
to remove those areas so I wouldn't be...
I wouldn't be able to enforce them, uh, was because
he moved his--his boyfriend in without getting my consent.
And then so it says in there that he needs written consent.
I understand that that doesn't apply to me, but he thought it did.
And so he used White-out on the other lease
that I gave to you to obfuscate those terms.
I don't know how to put this to you, sir,
other than to say...
Let me backtrack.
What kind of work do you do?
I'm a web developer.
You work for yourself or for a company?
I do. I'm an independent contractor.
How long have you been doing that?
Two years.
Prior to that, what were you doing?
I was a system administrator.
For whom?
Uh, for a small company in San Francisco.
How long did you work for them?
Uh, six years.
So for two years, you were an independent web developer
and you're still an independent web developer,
Correct.
And that's how you support yourself.
- - - Right. - So you work out of your home.
Right.
And you've been working out of your home,
you said, the last two years, since 2020.
- This is 2022 or 19. - Right.
What do you mean "right"?
So, it was, uh, it would've been--
When you moved in 2018, were you an independent contractor?
No, I was going to school.
- You were going to school. - Right.
- For what? - -I-- - I went--
Just a second. For what?
For, uh, web--web technologies.
It was a program for web development technology.
Did you go in person?
- Yes, it was an intensive. - How-- for how long?
Uh, it was, uh, three months.
It was eight hours a day.
Okay. So you went to school for three months.
- Right. - During what period of time?
Uh, January 2018 to, uh, end of March 2018.
Okay. And at that time, you were living with the plaintiff.
Correct.
Okay, so you needed a room for that three month period,
and after that time, you supported yourself
by being your own boss, by developing websites.
It took me a while to find a job, but yes.
What do you mean it took you time to find a job?
The interview process to get work-- I was interviewing,
it was very hard to break into that industry.
And so what did you do?
So I started taking on, like, independent work.
So you never actually got a job
outside of the independent work that you do?
That's correct.
So you support yourself by doing
web development out of your home. Yes.
So you used the home that you were living in,
- the room that you were renting, - Mm-hmm.
for not only your personal business,
but you operated a place of business out of your residence.
- Okay. - What do you mean, "Okay"?
- Yes. - Yes.
I just want you to see how ridiculous you are.
You want $10,000 because you overpaid
what you consider a fair share of the rent.
That's not gonna happen.
You come here, you didn't pay rent
for at least seven months because of COVID,
you were working, according to you.
You were a web developer, still are.
It's 2022 because you have no other job
other than being a web developer.
You stopped paying rent. You moved out after he did.
- Correct? - Well--
- Did you pay-- - I'd like to correct something--
In the month that you lived there
when you had put him out of his house
- because you were-- because-- - They were moving out.
I did not put him out of the house.
I thought there was a protective order.
It was, but they were--
I put in the protective order
that they were living with me,
but they were moving, and so...
No, no, no, no.
"They were living with you"? You were living with them.
Well, yeah, we were living together.
No! You were living with the defendant.
He wasn't living with you.
You were renting the place, although you weren't paying rent from him.
And the underlying landlord wasn't getting his money,
all of his money, because he wasn't getting your money.
And what's coming to me is
that somebody got stiffed with rent,
and that would be the landlord
who rented you your place where you were living
because you didn't pay him the whole thing.
You didn't pay him the whole thing.
And now you want me-- you're asking me
to award you $10,000 for overpayment of rent.
Your Honor, can I clarify something?
The--the times when I didn't pay rent,
I was not working. Like, it was during COVID.
So the first couple of months of the COVID lockdown,
I lost all my contracts, so I didn't have any money.
And so I was using the COVID--
There was a COVID process
where you could, you know, basically say that, you know--
There's no "basically" in there. Only I used it once.
I did not have the money to pay rent.
I was not just making money and not paying rent.
I would not do that.
I was broke. All my contracts dried up because nobody had any money.
I was working for small companies--
So what are you suing him for now?
The government was very good to you.
This is a very interesting America.
It's a rent forgiveness-- It's a rent moratorium.
That doesn't mean the state where you live.
What state do you live in?
- California. - California.
That doesn't mean the owner of this premises
was given some sort of a break,
that they didn't have to pay for utilities, taxes,
mortgage on the building because it's... it's used as a business.
As far as I know, there wasn't a moratorium on that.
But there was a moratorium on two seemingly able-bodied people
to say to the landlord, "I can't pay my rent."
And--
To add insult to injury,
you think that I'm going to give you $10,000
because he charged you
more than, whatever, the third or 40%
of your occupancy of the apartment,
and he shouldn't have?
That's not going to happen, sir. So forget it.
I've been here a long time. If a landlord is owed $5,000...
- - - Yes. - He doesn't say,
"Well, tenant owes me $5,000, but his apartment was clean.
I'm gonna give him back his $2,000 security deposit."
That doesn't happen.
Mark Mikelonis has accused his former roommate
Christopher Robertson
of overcharging for rent and keeping his property.
Christopher is countersuing Mark for unpaid rent.
Now, you gave him a security deposit.
- That is part of your lawsuits. - Correct.
So I want you to forget the overpayment of rent
- because it is ridiculous. - Okay.
So now let's go to the security deposit part of your complaint.
Did he give you a security deposit?
He did, Your Honor.
Now, he didn't pay rent because of this moratorium...
- Yes. - on rent.
Did you get your security deposit back from the landlord?
- - - I did. - How much?
I believe I got the total amount for the entire apartment,
which was approximately $2,000.
And how much did Mr. Mikelonis
give you as a security deposit?
He gave me $1,250 for the security deposit,
plus a 300 deposit pet deposit.
Sometimes the pet deposit is refundable.
Did you get the pet deposit back?
Uh, I don't recall specifically if I got that back from the landlord.
But you did get back your entire security deposit,
- which included his $1250? - Yes.
- Okay. - That's correct.
Let's hold that in abeyance for a moment because
now I'm going to go to your counterclaim.
- Sure. - I think that's all I have to deal with.
Oh, and "property taken without permission."
Did you get that property back that was s--?
- I did not. - What property was it?
There was, um, a stone Buddha carving.
There was some dishes, some glasses.
Oh, give me a break. Do you have his stone Buddha carving?
I have the stone Buddha carving.
I have a small statuette of a rooster that is his
- and a small metal... - Wait.
- serving spoon set. - Would you pack those up?
- Yes. - Do you live close to each other?
I haven't been able to because of our mutual, um, restraining orders.
Fine. Do you know where your local precinct is?
- Yes. - Where is it located?
Uh, I believe that the closest one would be downtown for me.
Downtown Oakland.
Okay. You'll find out before you leave today.
In five days, drop it off at the local precinct.
- Absolutely. - Let him know when
and he could go pick up his Buddha.
- Yes. I don't want that in my home. - Great.
Terrific. Now, "money owed for COVID debt" is your counterclaim.
- - - Yes. - Which is what?
- - - Uh, it is a total of... - How much-- What--
$5535, I believe.
For what?
Um, that is the, um, unpaid rent.
But you didn't pay his rent, you just told me.
Right. And so this is the outstanding balance of the rent
that he never paid that I'm responsible for as the master tenant?
Oh, no. You just told me that you got your security deposit back.
If you got your security deposit back, sir,
that means that the landlord is finished with you.
Um, according to the law.
Not according to the law.
If you got your security deposit back, the entire security deposit,
the landlord has written it off.
Because otherwise, he would have taken your security deposit
if you owed him or her money.
Do you understand what I'm saying? It's very simple.
- I understand what you're saying. - It's very simple.
- I-- - I wish I could explain that to them in--
- in your-- - Well--
in your manner.
Well, I want to tell you something.
I've been here a long time.
If a landlord is owed $5,000.
- Yes. - He doesn't say,
"Well, tenant owes me $5,000,
but his apartment was clean.
I'm gonna give him back his $2,000 security deposit."
- That doesn't happen. - So, he--
Only in the Land of Oz does that happen.
- They might live there. - Not if--
No, they might live there, but I don't live there.
Okay.
You owe him $1,250 for security deposit.
This case is over. Your counterclaim's dismissed with--
- Um-- - We're done.
- Court is adjourned. - Thank you very much.
I would just like to bring--
And goodbye!
Well, I was a little upset.
He's being a drama queen.
The clause in the lease was to prevent people from over--
like, basically taking advantage of the fact that they've been
living in a place for a long time and gouging rent for new tenants.
He said I was price gouging him because
it was enough to pay more rent than...
he might have if he had done some more research.
They were trying to make it equal.
And every place that I've lived in,
there was always an equitable share of the rent.
Like, no one was ever gouging anybody.
So I just I felt that, um, I was unjustly charged.
Well, I can't say it wasn't very satisfying to hear the judge
call his claims ridiculous to his face.
Basically, he was leaving the front door open,
making it so my dog could escape easily.
He was filling the house up with smoke.
We both burned sage.
He was basically trying to get me riled up.
He wanted me to move.
While I am disappointed that I won't be able to recover
some of his COVID debt...
Basically the moment that he was--
you know, it was inconvenient for me to be there,
he tried to make my life miserable.
I'm glad that I will never have to see him again and this is done.
I'm not living with roommates ever again.
I've got my dog, and we're cool.
He was a nightmare, and I never have to see him again.
You know, far be it from me to second guess another judge,
but it would seem to me sort of outrageous
unless there was some sort of a physical altercation,
why anyone...
Because he clearly was excluded from his house.
He left first, and he said, you know, involuntarily,
would anybody exclude...
- The original tenant. - The original tenant.
When I read the papers, I thought the same thing.
I thought that was outrageous that they would throw out
the primary lease holder on a lease
in favor of his sub-tenant,
which may or may not have been legal to begin with.
You know, I can understand it if there was something more serious...
- Mm-hmm. - But harassment?
I just don't understand it.
- But mine is not to wonder why. - I didn't either.
Mine is but to do what I do.
And I don't think that when you come into a court
where you have at least participated marginally,
in a giveaway, to then come in and say,
"You know what? This technical thing.
He wasn't supposed to charge me this much rent
because I didn't occupy this much of the apartment." Whatever.
- Ridiculous. When you didn't pay rent... - Exactly.
for seven months anyway,
it made my job a lot easier.
Want justice?
- Go to JudyJustice. - TV.
♪