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{\an8}You lived with him in his home?
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00:00:02,934 --> 00:00:05,166
- Yes, ma'am.
- There was a dispute.
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00:00:05,233 --> 00:00:07,834
I received partial or no rent payments.
4
00:00:07,900 --> 00:00:10,467
- As a result of this harassment?
- That's correct.
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00:00:11,066 --> 00:00:14,700
Ridiculous. Do you know my
husband harasses me every day?
6
00:00:16,166 --> 00:00:18,333
This is Judy Justice.
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00:00:35,767 --> 00:00:40,233
{\an8}Mark Mikelonis is suing his
former roommate Christopher Robertson
8
00:00:40,300 --> 00:00:44,166
for rent, a security deposit
and stolen property.
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00:00:44,233 --> 00:00:46,200
Court come to order. All rise.
10
00:00:46,266 --> 00:00:47,200
Have a seat, please.
11
00:00:49,133 --> 00:00:53,333
Hello, Judge. Case 2066.
Mikelonis versus Robertson.
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00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:54,767
- Thank you.
- You're welcome.
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00:00:55,500 --> 00:00:58,533
Mr. Robertson,
how long had you been living
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00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:02,900
in your apartment prior to
renting a room to the plaintiff?
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00:01:02,967 --> 00:01:04,700
I believe it was about three years.
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00:01:04,767 --> 00:01:06,667
You had been living there by yourself?
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00:01:06,734 --> 00:01:08,700
No, I had roommates previously.
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00:01:08,767 --> 00:01:10,467
When did the plaintiff move in?
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00:01:10,533 --> 00:01:14,400
I believe that it was
January 1st of 2017.
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00:01:14,467 --> 00:01:16,800
- 2017?
- It may have been 2018.
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00:01:16,867 --> 00:01:19,433
- It was the first, I forget.
- It was 2018.
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00:01:19,500 --> 00:01:20,500
{\an8}That's correct.
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00:01:20,567 --> 00:01:22,767
How long did he live there with you?
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00:01:22,834 --> 00:01:26,834
{\an8}He lived there with me
until September of 2021.
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00:01:26,900 --> 00:01:28,734
- So far, that correct, sir?
- Yes, ma'am.
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00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:31,266
So now let me understand this lawsuit.
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00:01:31,333 --> 00:01:34,934
Mr. Robertson lived in
his apartment for three years.
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00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:36,867
You answered an ad for a room.
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00:01:36,934 --> 00:01:40,533
You lived with him in his home as a tenant
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00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:46,033
{\an8}from January 2018 until September 2021.
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00:01:46,100 --> 00:01:49,600
- {\an8}-
- Correct. At that time there was a dispute.
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00:01:49,667 --> 00:01:51,767
We will get into that in a moment.
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00:01:51,834 --> 00:01:54,567
There was a dispute.
During part of that time,
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00:01:54,633 --> 00:01:57,266
Mr. Mikelonis, you did not pay rent.
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00:01:57,333 --> 00:01:59,567
- Is that correct? During COVID?
- That's correct.
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00:01:59,633 --> 00:02:02,266
For what period of time
did you not pay rent?
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00:02:02,333 --> 00:02:04,467
Um, there was, I-- Uh...
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00:02:04,533 --> 00:02:06,433
Give me how many months did not pay rent.
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00:02:06,500 --> 00:02:07,533
There was...
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00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:08,967
You don't have to think out loud.
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00:02:09,033 --> 00:02:13,500
How many months between January of 2018
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00:02:13,567 --> 00:02:17,767
and September 2021 did you not pay rent?
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00:02:17,834 --> 00:02:20,400
- {\an8}-
- Give me a number that's a number.
- There was four months.
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00:02:20,467 --> 00:02:22,700
{\an8}Some--some months I paid partial rent,
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00:02:22,767 --> 00:02:25,533
So there were four months
that I did not pay any rent.
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00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:27,100
Four months, no rent.
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00:02:27,166 --> 00:02:29,633
And how many months
did you pay partial rent?
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00:02:29,700 --> 00:02:33,467
Uh, I believe that
would have been four or three.
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00:02:33,533 --> 00:02:35,800
So for seven months,
you did not pay your rent.
50
00:02:35,867 --> 00:02:37,433
Paying partial rent is not rent.
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00:02:37,500 --> 00:02:41,767
Now, my question to you, Mr. Robertson,
is this is an apartment that you rent.
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00:02:41,834 --> 00:02:43,367
- Yes.
- Or rented
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00:02:43,433 --> 00:02:44,300
Mm-hmm.
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00:02:44,367 --> 00:02:49,100
{\an8}From January 2018 until September 2021,
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00:02:49,166 --> 00:02:50,767
{\an8}was your rent current?
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00:02:50,834 --> 00:02:52,433
{\an8}My portion of the rent was current.
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00:02:52,500 --> 00:02:53,834
What do you mean, "your portion"?
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00:02:53,900 --> 00:02:56,500
My portion that I was responsible for.
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00:02:56,567 --> 00:02:57,734
No, it's your apartment.
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00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,133
You're responsible for
the whole thing, Mr. Robertson.
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00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:01,233
- Yes.
- Okay.
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00:03:01,300 --> 00:03:02,934
You're responsible for the whole rent.
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00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:06,600
And if what you chose to do
was to say to your landlord,
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00:03:06,667 --> 00:03:09,567
"Listen, I have a roommate.
I'm just paying my portion of the rent.
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00:03:09,633 --> 00:03:11,266
- My roommate isn't paying his,"
- Right.
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00:03:11,333 --> 00:03:13,400
- then your rent wasn't paid.
- Yes.
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00:03:13,467 --> 00:03:17,367
And I assume that your rent
wasn't paid for the same period of time
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00:03:17,433 --> 00:03:19,266
that he didn't pay
you his portion of the rent.
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00:03:19,333 --> 00:03:20,200
Yes.
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00:03:20,266 --> 00:03:23,066
Was it for any
period of time greater than that?
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00:03:23,133 --> 00:03:27,567
Greater than the four months or
the seven months that he didn't pay rent?
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00:03:27,633 --> 00:03:31,233
I went through my bank statements,
and they went back until...
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00:03:31,300 --> 00:03:34,066
Um, I believe, July of 2020,
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00:03:34,133 --> 00:03:36,967
and that's as far back
as my bank app lets me go.
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00:03:37,033 --> 00:03:39,967
- Okay.
- There were more months than that
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00:03:40,033 --> 00:03:41,834
that I received partial
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00:03:41,900 --> 00:03:43,834
or no rent payments for...
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00:03:43,900 --> 00:03:45,033
- From him.
- From him.
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00:03:45,100 --> 00:03:46,800
I'm asking you about your landlord.
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00:03:46,867 --> 00:03:49,100
If you didn't pay your landlord,
you're telling me your landlord
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00:03:49,166 --> 00:03:51,000
didn't file an eviction against you?
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00:03:51,066 --> 00:03:53,166
{\an8}There were several months that he did,
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00:03:53,233 --> 00:03:54,633
{\an8}um, pay his full rent,
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00:03:54,700 --> 00:03:57,467
{\an8}and so that would have
meant that the entire
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00:03:57,533 --> 00:03:59,200
- rent for that period--
- Well, I know,
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00:03:59,266 --> 00:04:03,000
but if the rent was not paid,
did your landlord ever
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00:04:03,066 --> 00:04:04,533
{\an8}serve you an eviction notice?
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00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:06,266
{\an8}No. There was an eviction moratorium
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00:04:06,333 --> 00:04:08,133
{\an8}in Alameda County at that point.
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00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:09,767
For unpaid rents due to COVID.
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00:04:09,834 --> 00:04:10,800
Gotcha.
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00:04:10,867 --> 00:04:14,233
So that-- would it be a fair statement
that you both took advantage of that?
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00:04:14,300 --> 00:04:16,934
He took advantage of it, and so did you.
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00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:18,500
- I--
- Um...
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00:04:18,567 --> 00:04:21,300
I wouldn't say that it was, uh,
me trying to take advantage.
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00:04:21,367 --> 00:04:23,767
I would just say it was my
inability to cover the entire rent.
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00:04:23,834 --> 00:04:25,934
Your portion as well as his.
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00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:27,533
My portion was always covered.
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00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:29,000
- Your portion was covered.
- Yes.
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00:04:29,066 --> 00:04:30,867
Okay. Now, Mr. Mikelonis,
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00:04:30,934 --> 00:04:33,934
when did you move from month and year?
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00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,166
It was September of 2021.
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00:04:36,233 --> 00:04:37,467
And when did you leave there?
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00:04:37,533 --> 00:04:42,133
I believe it was the third or
fourth week of August of 2021.
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00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:44,233
So you both left
the place at about the same time?
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00:04:44,300 --> 00:04:46,567
Um, I left involuntarily, but yes.
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00:04:46,633 --> 00:04:49,367
Well, you left involuntary,
because that's what this case is about.
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00:04:49,433 --> 00:04:51,166
Okay, so now I have the structure of it.
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00:04:51,233 --> 00:04:52,867
Do you understand the structure of it?
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00:04:52,934 --> 00:04:54,367
- I understand.
- You understand the structure of it?
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00:04:54,433 --> 00:04:56,934
I just want to make sure
that people out there watching
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00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:58,000
understand the structure of it.
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00:04:58,066 --> 00:05:02,233
So you were the rentor,
and you had an argument,
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00:05:02,300 --> 00:05:07,066
it resulted in a protective order,
for somehow, some genius
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00:05:07,133 --> 00:05:10,333
put him out of his own apartment
because of these protecti--
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00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:13,900
{\an8}You weren't in the hospital for anything,
were you, as a result of an assault?
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00:05:13,967 --> 00:05:14,934
- {\an8}-
- No.
- No.
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00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,533
{\an8}You have no medical records
there being treated for any injury.
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00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:20,000
- It was harassment.
- Just a minute.
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00:05:20,133 --> 00:05:22,300
Do you know my husband
harasses me every day?
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00:05:23,533 --> 00:05:26,166
Every day.
I couldn't think of evicting him.
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00:05:26,233 --> 00:05:28,200
I mean, you do other things.
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00:05:28,266 --> 00:05:30,934
So the answer is
you were never treated for any illness.
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00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,133
You were never treated for
anxiety at a hospital
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00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:36,233
as a result of this harassment.
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00:05:36,300 --> 00:05:39,266
As a result of your allegations,
let us say, of harassment,
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00:05:39,333 --> 00:05:42,934
{\an8}Mr. Robertson was
ejected from his own home,
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00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,266
{\an8}from which you had not been paying rent.
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00:05:46,333 --> 00:05:49,200
Your portion that you were
supposed to pay
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00:05:49,367 --> 00:05:52,734
contractually with him
for months because of COVID.
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00:05:52,867 --> 00:05:55,367
Am I getting this story right? So far?
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00:05:55,433 --> 00:05:58,700
I'm not finished yet, but so far,
is there anything that I said was wrong?
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00:05:58,767 --> 00:06:01,200
Um, I think that's pretty close.
I mean--
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00:06:01,266 --> 00:06:03,433
Okay, so that's pretty close.
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00:06:03,500 --> 00:06:06,734
And now what you are seeking here is,
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00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,700
should I say "basically"
and I hate that word,
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00:06:09,767 --> 00:06:12,233
basically,
but it's appropriate in this case.
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00:06:12,300 --> 00:06:13,867
So all of those haters out there,
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00:06:13,934 --> 00:06:15,934
"Ah, she used use basically,"
I don't care.
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00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:17,333
It's appropriate here.
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00:06:20,166 --> 00:06:23,133
{\an8}And I put in the protective
order that they were living with me.
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00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:24,066
{\an8}But they were moving.
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00:06:24,133 --> 00:06:26,066
{\an8}No, no, no.
"They were living with you"?
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00:06:26,133 --> 00:06:27,266
{\an8}You were living with them.
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00:06:27,333 --> 00:06:28,800
{\an8}Well, yeah, we were living together.
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00:06:28,867 --> 00:06:32,400
{\an8}No, you were living with the defendant.
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00:06:32,467 --> 00:06:33,700
{\an8}He wasn't living with you.
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00:06:38,767 --> 00:06:40,834
{\an8}♪
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00:06:45,133 --> 00:06:46,467
{\an8}Mark Mikelonis
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00:06:46,533 --> 00:06:49,233
{\an8}claims his former roommate,
Christopher Robertson,
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00:06:49,300 --> 00:06:53,200
owes for rent, a security deposit
and stolen property.
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00:06:53,266 --> 00:06:57,266
Christopher is countersuing,
claiming Mark owes him for rent.
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00:06:57,333 --> 00:07:00,367
Now, what you're claiming
in your lawsuit is that
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00:07:00,433 --> 00:07:05,633
after a review of the copy
of the underlying lease,
155
00:07:05,700 --> 00:07:10,200
you found that you are paying
the vast majority of the rent.
156
00:07:10,266 --> 00:07:11,367
Correct.
157
00:07:11,433 --> 00:07:14,233
And so you want a return of that money.
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00:07:14,300 --> 00:07:15,400
That's correct.
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00:07:15,467 --> 00:07:17,633
Under what theory in the law?
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00:07:17,700 --> 00:07:19,600
Well, basically that he defrauded me.
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00:07:19,667 --> 00:07:21,567
No, no, now you can't use a "basically."
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00:07:21,633 --> 00:07:23,300
- {\an8}-
- Okay. Okay.
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00:07:23,367 --> 00:07:28,000
I want to know what theory
is there in the law
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00:07:28,500 --> 00:07:33,300
that says if I own a building
and I lease to someone
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00:07:33,367 --> 00:07:35,967
the whole building for $10,000.
166
00:07:36,033 --> 00:07:41,066
And then I find somebody who
is prepared to pay me--
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00:07:41,133 --> 00:07:43,100
And I have
the first two floors of the building.
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00:07:43,166 --> 00:07:45,133
Third floor is vacant.
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00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:49,233
I find somebody who's willing to pay
me $9,000 a month
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00:07:49,300 --> 00:07:50,800
just for the top floor.
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00:07:50,867 --> 00:07:52,500
That makes me a good business person.
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00:07:52,567 --> 00:07:55,934
But unless there is some
thing that prohibits him
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00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:57,800
- from doing that--
- There is, Your Honor.
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00:07:57,867 --> 00:08:00,700
- Show me.
- There's a clause in the lease.
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00:08:00,767 --> 00:08:02,166
- No, just show me.
- Okay.
176
00:08:02,233 --> 00:08:04,400
- I'm a lawyer. I can read a little.
- So the sub--
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00:08:04,467 --> 00:08:06,567
The sub lease that I
agreed to with him
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00:08:06,633 --> 00:08:08,800
incorporates the entirety of this--
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00:08:08,867 --> 00:08:10,867
Just a second.
I'd just like to see it, please, sir.
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00:08:10,934 --> 00:08:13,066
- Okay.
- I'd just like to see it.
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00:08:18,333 --> 00:08:22,033
I assume you've
highlighted what you want me to read.
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00:08:22,100 --> 00:08:23,633
- Correct.
- Okay.
183
00:08:23,700 --> 00:08:29,600
So what you're pointing to
is that the landlord, his landlord,
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00:08:29,667 --> 00:08:31,567
was not advised that you were subletting.
185
00:08:31,633 --> 00:08:32,734
No.
186
00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:34,834
Well, that's why--
"signed by every tenant."
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00:08:34,900 --> 00:08:38,667
So that was one of the things,
because if you look at the second lease,
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00:08:38,734 --> 00:08:40,734
{\an8}the one that was altered by Christopher
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00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:44,400
{\an8}to remove those areas so I wouldn't be...
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00:08:44,467 --> 00:08:47,667
I wouldn't be able to enforce them,
uh, was because
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00:08:47,734 --> 00:08:51,266
he moved his--his boyfriend
in without getting my consent.
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00:08:51,333 --> 00:08:54,100
And then so it says in there
that he needs written consent.
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00:08:54,166 --> 00:08:56,834
I understand that that doesn't
apply to me, but he thought it did.
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00:08:56,900 --> 00:08:59,166
And so he used
White-out on the other lease
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00:08:59,233 --> 00:09:02,567
that I gave to you
to obfuscate those terms.
196
00:09:02,633 --> 00:09:04,567
I don't know how to
put this to you, sir,
197
00:09:04,633 --> 00:09:06,133
other than to say...
198
00:09:06,867 --> 00:09:08,367
Let me backtrack.
199
00:09:08,433 --> 00:09:09,734
What kind of work do you do?
200
00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:10,867
I'm a web developer.
201
00:09:10,934 --> 00:09:12,367
You work for yourself or for a company?
202
00:09:12,433 --> 00:09:13,967
I do. I'm an independent contractor.
203
00:09:14,033 --> 00:09:15,467
How long have you been doing that?
204
00:09:15,533 --> 00:09:16,433
Two years.
205
00:09:16,500 --> 00:09:17,867
Prior to that, what were you doing?
206
00:09:17,934 --> 00:09:19,333
I was a system administrator.
207
00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:20,433
For whom?
208
00:09:20,500 --> 00:09:22,500
Uh, for a small company in San Francisco.
209
00:09:22,567 --> 00:09:24,100
How long did you work for them?
210
00:09:24,166 --> 00:09:25,734
Uh, six years.
211
00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:28,100
So for two years, you were
an independent web developer
212
00:09:28,166 --> 00:09:29,300
{\an8}and you're still
an independent web developer,
213
00:09:29,367 --> 00:09:30,367
{\an8}Correct.
214
00:09:30,433 --> 00:09:31,667
And that's how you support yourself.
215
00:09:31,734 --> 00:09:33,233
- {\an8}-
- Right.
- So you work out of your home.
216
00:09:33,300 --> 00:09:34,367
{\an8}Right.
217
00:09:34,433 --> 00:09:35,667
And you've been working out of your home,
218
00:09:35,734 --> 00:09:37,700
you said, the last two years, since 2020.
219
00:09:37,767 --> 00:09:40,433
- This is 2022 or 19.
- Right.
220
00:09:40,500 --> 00:09:41,667
What do you mean "right"?
221
00:09:41,734 --> 00:09:42,734
So, it was, uh, it would've been--
222
00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:46,600
When you moved in 2018,
were you an independent contractor?
223
00:09:46,667 --> 00:09:47,867
No, I was going to school.
224
00:09:47,934 --> 00:09:49,233
- You were going to school.
- Right.
225
00:09:49,300 --> 00:09:50,166
- For what?
- -I--
- I went--
226
00:09:50,233 --> 00:09:51,100
Just a second. For what?
227
00:09:51,166 --> 00:09:53,433
For, uh, web--web technologies.
228
00:09:53,500 --> 00:09:56,500
It was a program for
web development technology.
229
00:09:56,567 --> 00:09:58,233
Did you go in person?
230
00:09:58,300 --> 00:10:00,934
- Yes, it was an intensive.
- How-- for how long?
231
00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:02,533
Uh, it was, uh, three months.
232
00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:04,700
It was eight hours a day.
233
00:10:04,767 --> 00:10:06,500
Okay. So you went to school
for three months.
234
00:10:06,567 --> 00:10:08,233
- Right.
- During what period of time?
235
00:10:08,300 --> 00:10:14,133
Uh, January 2018 to, uh,
end of March 2018.
236
00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,934
Okay. And at that time,
you were living with the plaintiff.
237
00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:18,000
Correct.
238
00:10:18,066 --> 00:10:20,266
Okay, so you needed a room for that
three month period,
239
00:10:20,333 --> 00:10:22,800
and after that time,
you supported yourself
240
00:10:22,867 --> 00:10:25,700
by being your own boss,
by developing websites.
241
00:10:25,767 --> 00:10:27,633
It took me a while
to find a job, but yes.
242
00:10:27,700 --> 00:10:29,567
What do you mean it took you
time to find a job?
243
00:10:29,633 --> 00:10:32,266
The interview process to get work--
I was interviewing,
244
00:10:32,333 --> 00:10:35,333
it was very hard
to break into that industry.
245
00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:36,600
And so what did you do?
246
00:10:36,667 --> 00:10:40,033
So I started taking on, like,
independent work.
247
00:10:40,100 --> 00:10:42,200
So you never actually got a job
248
00:10:42,266 --> 00:10:44,433
outside of the independent work
that you do?
249
00:10:44,500 --> 00:10:45,400
That's correct.
250
00:10:45,467 --> 00:10:47,200
So you support yourself by doing
251
00:10:47,266 --> 00:10:48,934
web development out of your home. Yes.
252
00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,734
So you used the
home that you were living in,
253
00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:53,600
- the room that you were renting,
- Mm-hmm.
254
00:10:53,667 --> 00:10:56,233
for not only your personal business,
255
00:10:56,300 --> 00:10:59,500
but you operated a place of
business out of your residence.
256
00:10:59,567 --> 00:11:01,166
- Okay.
- What do you mean, "Okay"?
257
00:11:01,233 --> 00:11:02,967
- Yes.
- Yes.
258
00:11:03,033 --> 00:11:04,767
I just want you to see
how ridiculous you are.
259
00:11:04,834 --> 00:11:07,433
You want $10,000 because you overpaid
260
00:11:07,500 --> 00:11:09,600
what you consider
a fair share of the rent.
261
00:11:09,667 --> 00:11:10,600
That's not gonna happen.
262
00:11:10,667 --> 00:11:12,533
You come here, you didn't pay rent
263
00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,133
for at least seven months
because of COVID,
264
00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:17,000
you were working, according to you.
265
00:11:17,066 --> 00:11:18,600
You were a web developer, still are.
266
00:11:18,667 --> 00:11:20,834
It's 2022 because
you have no other job
267
00:11:20,900 --> 00:11:22,233
other than being a web developer.
268
00:11:22,300 --> 00:11:25,400
You stopped paying rent.
You moved out after he did.
269
00:11:25,467 --> 00:11:26,467
- Correct?
- Well--
270
00:11:26,533 --> 00:11:28,100
- Did you pay--
- I'd like to correct something--
271
00:11:28,166 --> 00:11:30,433
In the month that you lived there
272
00:11:30,500 --> 00:11:33,066
when you had put him out of his house
273
00:11:33,133 --> 00:11:35,700
- because you were-- because--
- They were moving out.
274
00:11:35,767 --> 00:11:37,200
I did not put him out of the house.
275
00:11:37,266 --> 00:11:39,000
I thought there was a protective order.
276
00:11:39,066 --> 00:11:40,834
It was, but they were--
277
00:11:40,900 --> 00:11:42,633
I put in the protective order
278
00:11:42,700 --> 00:11:44,734
that they were living with me,
279
00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:46,967
but they were moving, and so...
280
00:11:47,033 --> 00:11:48,066
No, no, no, no.
281
00:11:48,133 --> 00:11:50,066
"They were living with you"?
You were living with them.
282
00:11:50,133 --> 00:11:51,600
Well, yeah, we were living together.
283
00:11:51,667 --> 00:11:55,600
No!
You were living with the defendant.
284
00:11:55,667 --> 00:11:57,066
He wasn't living with you.
285
00:11:57,133 --> 00:12:01,233
You were renting the place,
although you weren't paying rent from him.
286
00:12:01,300 --> 00:12:04,400
And the underlying
landlord wasn't getting his money,
287
00:12:04,467 --> 00:12:06,533
all of his money,
because he wasn't getting your money.
288
00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:08,800
And what's coming to me is
289
00:12:08,867 --> 00:12:12,266
that somebody got stiffed with rent,
290
00:12:12,333 --> 00:12:14,700
and that would be the landlord
291
00:12:14,767 --> 00:12:18,066
{\an8}who rented you your place
where you were living
292
00:12:18,133 --> 00:12:19,867
because you didn't
pay him the whole thing.
293
00:12:19,934 --> 00:12:21,867
You didn't pay him the whole thing.
294
00:12:21,934 --> 00:12:24,367
And now you want me--
you're asking me
295
00:12:24,433 --> 00:12:28,200
to award you $10,000
for overpayment of rent.
296
00:12:28,266 --> 00:12:29,667
Your Honor, can I clarify something?
297
00:12:29,734 --> 00:12:33,166
The--the times when I didn't pay rent,
298
00:12:33,233 --> 00:12:36,166
I was not working.
Like, it was during COVID.
299
00:12:36,233 --> 00:12:38,033
{\an8}So the first couple of
months of the COVID lockdown,
300
00:12:38,100 --> 00:12:40,100
{\an8}I lost all my contracts,
so I didn't have any money.
301
00:12:40,166 --> 00:12:42,133
And so I was using the COVID--
302
00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:43,667
There was a COVID process
303
00:12:43,734 --> 00:12:46,133
where you could, you know,
basically say that, you know--
304
00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:48,467
There's no "basically" in there.
Only I used it once.
305
00:12:49,900 --> 00:12:51,433
I did not have the money to pay rent.
306
00:12:51,500 --> 00:12:53,533
I was not just making money
and not paying rent.
307
00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:54,567
I would not do that.
308
00:12:54,633 --> 00:12:57,800
I was broke. All my contracts
dried up because nobody had any money.
309
00:12:57,867 --> 00:12:58,900
I was working for small companies--
310
00:12:58,967 --> 00:13:00,233
So what are you suing him for now?
311
00:13:00,300 --> 00:13:01,600
The government was very good to you.
312
00:13:01,667 --> 00:13:04,133
This is a very interesting America.
313
00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,433
It's a rent forgiveness--
It's a rent moratorium.
314
00:13:07,934 --> 00:13:10,100
That doesn't mean
the state where you live.
315
00:13:10,166 --> 00:13:11,066
What state do you live in?
316
00:13:11,133 --> 00:13:12,467
- California.
- California.
317
00:13:12,533 --> 00:13:14,834
That doesn't mean
the owner of this premises
318
00:13:14,900 --> 00:13:17,500
was given some sort of a break,
319
00:13:17,567 --> 00:13:22,600
that they didn't
have to pay for utilities, taxes,
320
00:13:22,667 --> 00:13:26,700
mortgage on the building
because it's... it's used as a business.
321
00:13:26,767 --> 00:13:30,166
As far as I know,
there wasn't a moratorium on that.
322
00:13:30,233 --> 00:13:35,033
But there was a moratorium
on two seemingly able-bodied people
323
00:13:35,100 --> 00:13:37,934
to say to the landlord,
"I can't pay my rent."
324
00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:39,300
And--
325
00:13:39,367 --> 00:13:40,500
To add insult to injury,
326
00:13:40,567 --> 00:13:42,867
you think that I'm going to
give you $10,000
327
00:13:42,934 --> 00:13:45,033
because he charged you
328
00:13:45,100 --> 00:13:49,033
more than, whatever, the third or 40%
329
00:13:49,100 --> 00:13:51,567
of your occupancy of the apartment,
330
00:13:51,633 --> 00:13:52,767
and he shouldn't have?
331
00:13:52,834 --> 00:13:54,867
That's not going to happen, sir.
So forget it.
332
00:13:57,900 --> 00:14:02,066
{\an8}I've been here a long time.
If a landlord is owed $5,000...
333
00:14:02,133 --> 00:14:03,300
- {\an8}-
- Yes.
- He doesn't say,
334
00:14:03,367 --> 00:14:06,867
{\an8}"Well, tenant owes me $5,000,
but his apartment was clean.
335
00:14:06,934 --> 00:14:10,266
{\an8}I'm gonna give him back
his $2,000 security deposit."
336
00:14:10,333 --> 00:14:11,633
{\an8}That doesn't happen.
337
00:14:23,433 --> 00:14:26,633
{\an8}Mark Mikelonis
has accused his former roommate
338
00:14:26,700 --> 00:14:28,133
{\an8}Christopher Robertson
339
00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,100
of overcharging
for rent and keeping his property.
340
00:14:31,166 --> 00:14:34,500
Christopher is
countersuing Mark for unpaid rent.
341
00:14:34,867 --> 00:14:37,266
Now, you gave him a security deposit.
342
00:14:37,333 --> 00:14:40,033
- That is part of your lawsuits.
- Correct.
343
00:14:40,100 --> 00:14:42,166
So I want you to forget
the overpayment of rent
344
00:14:42,233 --> 00:14:45,233
- because it is ridiculous.
- Okay.
345
00:14:45,300 --> 00:14:48,800
So now let's go to the
security deposit part of your complaint.
346
00:14:48,867 --> 00:14:50,967
Did he give you a security deposit?
347
00:14:51,033 --> 00:14:52,000
He did, Your Honor.
348
00:14:52,066 --> 00:14:55,667
Now, he didn't pay rent
because of this moratorium...
349
00:14:55,734 --> 00:14:56,800
- Yes.
- on rent.
350
00:14:56,867 --> 00:15:00,567
{\an8}Did you get your security
deposit back from the landlord?
351
00:15:00,633 --> 00:15:02,033
- {\an8}-
- I did.
- How much?
352
00:15:02,100 --> 00:15:05,767
I believe I got the total
amount for the entire apartment,
353
00:15:05,834 --> 00:15:07,667
which was approximately $2,000.
354
00:15:07,734 --> 00:15:10,300
And how much did Mr. Mikelonis
355
00:15:10,367 --> 00:15:12,200
give you as a security deposit?
356
00:15:12,266 --> 00:15:15,734
He gave me
$1,250 for the security deposit,
357
00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:17,800
plus a 300 deposit pet deposit.
358
00:15:17,867 --> 00:15:20,066
Sometimes the pet deposit is refundable.
359
00:15:20,133 --> 00:15:22,133
Did you get the pet deposit back?
360
00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:26,467
Uh, I don't recall specifically if
I got that back from the landlord.
361
00:15:26,533 --> 00:15:29,367
But you did get back
your entire security deposit,
362
00:15:29,433 --> 00:15:31,600
- which included his $1250?
- Yes.
363
00:15:31,667 --> 00:15:32,767
- Okay.
- That's correct.
364
00:15:32,834 --> 00:15:34,967
Let's hold that in abeyance
for a moment because
365
00:15:35,033 --> 00:15:38,000
now I'm going to go to your counterclaim.
366
00:15:38,066 --> 00:15:40,166
- Sure.
- I think that's all I have to deal with.
367
00:15:40,233 --> 00:15:42,100
Oh, and "property taken
without permission."
368
00:15:42,166 --> 00:15:43,967
Did you get that property back
that was s--?
369
00:15:44,033 --> 00:15:45,900
- I did not.
- What property was it?
370
00:15:45,967 --> 00:15:48,400
{\an8}There was, um, a stone Buddha carving.
371
00:15:48,467 --> 00:15:50,967
{\an8}There was some dishes, some glasses.
372
00:15:51,033 --> 00:15:52,967
Oh, give me a break. Do you
have his stone Buddha carving?
373
00:15:53,033 --> 00:15:54,700
I have the stone Buddha carving.
374
00:15:54,767 --> 00:15:58,300
{\an8}I have a small statuette
of a rooster that is his
375
00:15:58,367 --> 00:16:00,800
- and a small metal...
- Wait.
376
00:16:00,867 --> 00:16:02,967
- serving spoon set.
- Would you pack those up?
377
00:16:03,033 --> 00:16:04,934
- Yes.
- Do you live close to each other?
378
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,367
I haven't been able to because of
our mutual, um, restraining orders.
379
00:16:08,433 --> 00:16:10,867
Fine. Do you know
where your local precinct is?
380
00:16:10,934 --> 00:16:12,533
- Yes.
- Where is it located?
381
00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,166
Uh, I believe that the closest one
would be downtown for me.
382
00:16:15,233 --> 00:16:16,200
Downtown Oakland.
383
00:16:16,266 --> 00:16:18,400
Okay. You'll find out
before you leave today.
384
00:16:18,467 --> 00:16:20,834
In five days,
drop it off at the local precinct.
385
00:16:20,900 --> 00:16:22,133
- Absolutely.
- Let him know when
386
00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:23,934
and he could go
pick up his Buddha.
387
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,066
- Yes. I don't want that in my home.
- Great.
388
00:16:26,133 --> 00:16:31,066
Terrific. Now, "money owed for
COVID debt" is your counterclaim.
389
00:16:31,133 --> 00:16:32,734
- {\an8}-
- Yes.
- Which is what?
390
00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,266
- {\an8}-
- Uh, it is a total of...
- How much-- What--
391
00:16:35,333 --> 00:16:38,033
{\an8}$5535, I believe.
392
00:16:38,100 --> 00:16:39,033
{\an8}For what?
393
00:16:39,100 --> 00:16:42,266
{\an8}Um, that is the, um, unpaid rent.
394
00:16:42,333 --> 00:16:44,400
But you didn't pay his rent,
you just told me.
395
00:16:44,467 --> 00:16:47,066
Right. And so this is the
outstanding balance of the rent
396
00:16:47,133 --> 00:16:50,100
that he never paid that I'm
responsible for as the master tenant?
397
00:16:50,166 --> 00:16:53,133
Oh, no. You just told me that
you got your security deposit back.
398
00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,100
If you got your
security deposit back, sir,
399
00:16:55,166 --> 00:16:57,166
that means that the landlord
is finished with you.
400
00:16:57,233 --> 00:16:59,200
Um, according to the law.
401
00:16:59,266 --> 00:17:00,367
Not according to the law.
402
00:17:00,433 --> 00:17:04,333
If you got your security deposit back,
the entire security deposit,
403
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:06,633
the landlord has written it off.
404
00:17:06,700 --> 00:17:09,300
Because otherwise, he would have
taken your security deposit
405
00:17:09,367 --> 00:17:11,667
if you owed him or her money.
406
00:17:11,734 --> 00:17:13,567
Do you understand what I'm saying?
It's very simple.
407
00:17:13,633 --> 00:17:15,000
- I understand what you're saying.
- It's very simple.
408
00:17:15,066 --> 00:17:16,800
- I--
- I wish I could explain that to them in--
409
00:17:16,867 --> 00:17:18,133
- in your--
- Well--
410
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:19,700
in your manner.
411
00:17:19,767 --> 00:17:21,200
Well, I want to tell you something.
412
00:17:21,266 --> 00:17:22,467
I've been here a long time.
413
00:17:22,533 --> 00:17:25,500
If a landlord is owed $5,000.
414
00:17:25,567 --> 00:17:26,700
- Yes.
- He doesn't say,
415
00:17:26,767 --> 00:17:28,700
"Well, tenant owes me $5,000,
416
00:17:28,767 --> 00:17:30,367
but his apartment was clean.
417
00:17:30,433 --> 00:17:33,667
I'm gonna give him
back his $2,000 security deposit."
418
00:17:33,734 --> 00:17:35,767
- That doesn't happen.
- So, he--
419
00:17:35,834 --> 00:17:37,633
Only in the Land of Oz does that happen.
420
00:17:38,700 --> 00:17:40,033
- They might live there.
- Not if--
421
00:17:40,100 --> 00:17:41,934
No, they might live there,
but I don't live there.
422
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:43,166
Okay.
423
00:17:43,233 --> 00:17:46,266
You owe him $1,250 for security deposit.
424
00:17:46,333 --> 00:17:48,400
This case is over.
Your counterclaim's dismissed with--
425
00:17:48,467 --> 00:17:49,600
- Um--
- We're done.
426
00:17:49,667 --> 00:17:50,700
- Court is adjourned.
- Thank you very much.
427
00:17:50,767 --> 00:17:51,934
I would just like to bring--
428
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:52,934
And goodbye!
429
00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:54,166
{\an8}Well, I was a little upset.
430
00:17:54,233 --> 00:17:55,834
{\an8}He's being a drama queen.
431
00:17:55,900 --> 00:17:59,233
{\an8}The clause in the lease
was to prevent people from over--
432
00:17:59,300 --> 00:18:01,266
{\an8}like, basically taking advantage
of the fact that they've been
433
00:18:01,333 --> 00:18:05,567
{\an8}living in a place for a long time
and gouging rent for new tenants.
434
00:18:05,633 --> 00:18:07,567
{\an8}He said I was price gouging him because
435
00:18:07,633 --> 00:18:10,333
{\an8}it was enough to pay more rent than...
436
00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,700
{\an8}he might have if
he had done some more research.
437
00:18:12,767 --> 00:18:14,200
{\an8}They were trying to make it equal.
438
00:18:14,266 --> 00:18:15,834
{\an8}And every place that I've lived in,
439
00:18:15,900 --> 00:18:18,133
{\an8}there was always
an equitable share of the rent.
440
00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:20,266
{\an8}Like, no one was ever gouging anybody.
441
00:18:20,333 --> 00:18:23,934
{\an8}So I just I felt that, um,
I was unjustly charged.
442
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:26,767
{\an8}Well, I can't say it wasn't
very satisfying to hear the judge
443
00:18:26,834 --> 00:18:28,834
{\an8}call his claims ridiculous to his face.
444
00:18:28,900 --> 00:18:31,767
{\an8}Basically, he was leaving
the front door open,
445
00:18:31,834 --> 00:18:34,033
{\an8}making it so my dog could escape easily.
446
00:18:34,100 --> 00:18:36,300
{\an8}He was filling the house up with smoke.
447
00:18:36,367 --> 00:18:37,500
{\an8}We both burned sage.
448
00:18:37,567 --> 00:18:39,600
{\an8}He was basically trying to
get me riled up.
449
00:18:39,667 --> 00:18:41,100
{\an8}He wanted me to move.
450
00:18:41,166 --> 00:18:42,900
{\an8}While I am disappointed that
I won't be able to recover
451
00:18:42,967 --> 00:18:44,100
{\an8}some of his COVID debt...
452
00:18:44,166 --> 00:18:45,633
{\an8}Basically the moment that he was--
453
00:18:45,700 --> 00:18:47,467
{\an8}you know, it was inconvenient
for me to be there,
454
00:18:47,533 --> 00:18:49,934
{\an8}he tried to make my life miserable.
455
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:53,367
{\an8}I'm glad that I will never have to
see him again and this is done.
456
00:18:53,433 --> 00:18:55,367
{\an8}I'm not living with roommates ever again.
457
00:18:55,433 --> 00:18:57,166
{\an8}I've got my dog, and we're cool.
458
00:18:57,233 --> 00:18:59,266
{\an8}He was a nightmare,
and I never have to see him again.
459
00:19:00,467 --> 00:19:04,800
You know, far be it from me
to second guess another judge,
460
00:19:04,867 --> 00:19:07,233
but it would seem to me sort of outrageous
461
00:19:07,300 --> 00:19:10,734
unless there was
some sort of a physical altercation,
462
00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:12,300
why anyone...
463
00:19:12,367 --> 00:19:14,633
Because he clearly
was excluded from his house.
464
00:19:14,700 --> 00:19:17,233
He left first, and he said,
you know, involuntarily,
465
00:19:17,300 --> 00:19:19,600
would anybody exclude...
466
00:19:19,667 --> 00:19:21,834
- The original tenant.
- The original tenant.
467
00:19:21,900 --> 00:19:23,367
When I read the papers,
I thought the same thing.
468
00:19:23,433 --> 00:19:25,467
I thought that was outrageous
that they would throw out
469
00:19:25,533 --> 00:19:27,667
the primary lease holder on a lease
470
00:19:27,734 --> 00:19:29,767
in favor of his sub-tenant,
471
00:19:29,834 --> 00:19:32,100
which may or may
not have been legal to begin with.
472
00:19:32,166 --> 00:19:34,967
You know, I can understand it if there was
something more serious...
473
00:19:35,033 --> 00:19:36,400
- Mm-hmm.
- But harassment?
474
00:19:36,467 --> 00:19:37,734
I just don't understand it.
475
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,200
- But mine is not to wonder why.
- I didn't either.
476
00:19:40,266 --> 00:19:43,100
Mine is but to do what I do.
477
00:19:43,166 --> 00:19:46,433
And I don't think that when
you come into a court
478
00:19:46,500 --> 00:19:50,166
where you have at least
participated marginally,
479
00:19:50,233 --> 00:19:53,133
in a giveaway,
to then come in and say,
480
00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:54,567
"You know what? This technical thing.
481
00:19:54,633 --> 00:19:56,667
He wasn't supposed to charge
me this much rent
482
00:19:56,734 --> 00:19:59,967
because I didn't occupy this much
of the apartment." Whatever.
483
00:20:00,033 --> 00:20:02,300
- Ridiculous. When you didn't pay rent...
- Exactly.
484
00:20:02,367 --> 00:20:03,567
for seven months anyway,
485
00:20:03,633 --> 00:20:05,467
it made my job a lot easier.
486
00:20:07,066 --> 00:20:08,433
Want justice?
487
00:20:08,500 --> 00:20:10,834
- {\an8}Go to JudyJustice.
- TV.
488
00:20:10,900 --> 00:20:13,166
{\an8}♪