1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Downloaded from YTS.MX 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Official YIFY movies site: YTS.MX 3 00:03:17,666 --> 00:03:21,033 One bathrobe, blue. 4 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,899 One Toshiba laptop... 5 00:03:30,033 --> 00:03:34,800 model SA60 dash 117. 6 00:03:39,899 --> 00:03:42,699 One sauce pan, stainless steel. 7 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:51,266 One medical briefcase, brown leather. 8 00:03:58,300 --> 00:04:00,733 Three wine glasses. 9 00:04:08,333 --> 00:04:11,333 Five highball glasses. 10 00:04:17,500 --> 00:04:21,666 One opened bottle of poppers, Hardware. 11 00:04:24,866 --> 00:04:29,400 One unopened bottle of poppers, Rush. 12 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,033 One used condom. 13 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,833 Eleven unused condoms. 14 00:04:53,500 --> 00:04:57,733 Two unused condoms, Extra Large. 15 00:05:03,266 --> 00:05:06,300 One dildo, penis. 16 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,300 One dildo, fist. 17 00:05:22,899 --> 00:05:25,933 Six compact discs. 18 00:05:28,100 --> 00:05:30,833 Kristine W - Feel What You Want. 19 00:05:38,866 --> 00:05:41,800 George Michael - Ladies and Gentlemen. 20 00:05:44,300 --> 00:05:47,000 Aimee Mann - Magnolia. 21 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:52,266 Knuffelrock - Part 7. 22 00:05:56,033 --> 00:05:59,200 Prodigy - Firestarter. 23 00:06:00,633 --> 00:06:04,866 And Nina Simone - Emergency Ward. 24 00:06:13,333 --> 00:06:15,933 One half bag of Japanese nuts. 25 00:06:20,233 --> 00:06:23,400 One gas mask, black. 26 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:31,400 One half bag of mixed nuts. 27 00:06:37,333 --> 00:06:40,266 One empty bag of Sweet Pepper crisps. 28 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:48,233 One tube of lube, KY. 29 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:57,833 One can of shortening, Crisco. 30 00:07:04,866 --> 00:07:08,066 One hypodermic needle, used. 31 00:07:12,733 --> 00:07:17,333 Four hypodermic needles, unused. 32 00:07:22,266 --> 00:07:24,633 A pink polo shirt. 33 00:07:29,333 --> 00:07:33,533 One pair of sweat pants with Feyenoord logo. 34 00:07:47,333 --> 00:07:49,133 Two letters. 35 00:07:52,500 --> 00:07:55,466 One handwritten letter. 36 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:59,500 'Peter, I don't think you know how to love someone. 37 00:07:59,633 --> 00:08:01,433 But it was there. 38 00:08:01,533 --> 00:08:04,666 You were in me. That means something. 39 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:09,066 Remember I will always be there. You can't erase me. 40 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:11,000 Hans.' 41 00:08:14,633 --> 00:08:16,833 One printed letter. 42 00:08:17,933 --> 00:08:19,733 'To my master Peter. 43 00:08:19,866 --> 00:08:25,100 I, Hans Jonkers, get a kick from being the poz whore to my master. 44 00:08:25,233 --> 00:08:31,666 I now have the most wild, hot and dirty sex, unlike before I was infected. 45 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:37,266 I get a kick from rough bare fucking, needles, poz blood, and piss. 46 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:42,000 I have knowingly infected my master and others as well. 47 00:08:42,100 --> 00:08:47,600 Like Guido, Paul, Wilfred, Michel, Tom... 48 00:08:47,699 --> 00:08:50,500 Guido and maybe Max. 49 00:08:50,633 --> 00:08:54,533 Most of the guest were drugged by me, using GHB... 50 00:08:54,666 --> 00:08:58,400 and I then injected them with my own poz blood. 51 00:08:58,500 --> 00:09:02,733 The bastards got what they asked for. Yeah. 52 00:09:02,866 --> 00:09:05,400 31-12-2006. 53 00:09:15,533 --> 00:09:17,300 Two DVDs. 54 00:09:17,433 --> 00:09:20,100 Fireplace. Boys Juice. 55 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:39,600 Three bottles of GHB, two hundred and fifty millilitres each. 56 00:09:48,100 --> 00:09:51,866 One empty rosé wine bottle, Kaapse Pracht. 57 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,066 Three empty beer cans, Schultenbrau. 58 00:10:08,433 --> 00:10:11,466 Three empty Cola cans. 59 00:10:17,933 --> 00:10:21,266 One string of anal beads, small. 60 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:29,066 One string of anal beads, large. 61 00:10:34,833 --> 00:10:37,433 One gramme of cannabis. 62 00:10:39,233 --> 00:10:43,000 And one pack of large cigarette paper. 63 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:58,866 2.3 kilogrammes of XTC pills. 64 00:11:05,433 --> 00:11:07,233 Pink. 65 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,466 One pair of grey boxer shorts. 66 00:11:20,433 --> 00:11:22,933 One red bath towel. 67 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:31,800 One enema. 68 00:12:55,300 --> 00:12:58,533 I can't find it. 69 00:12:58,666 --> 00:13:01,633 Why are you fiddling on your phone? 70 00:13:01,733 --> 00:13:06,033 I'm trying to find something and that takes time. 71 00:13:06,133 --> 00:13:10,433 What are you trying to find? Maybe we know what it is. 72 00:13:10,533 --> 00:13:12,833 You do. 73 00:13:12,933 --> 00:13:16,400 - What? - What we talked about yesterday. 74 00:13:20,866 --> 00:13:24,200 - This isn't it. - What? What are you searching? 75 00:13:24,300 --> 00:13:29,300 - About 'coming home'. Remember? - It wasn't about that. It was about love. 76 00:13:29,433 --> 00:13:32,300 - Well... coming home. - You two spoke of love? 77 00:13:32,433 --> 00:13:34,233 Yeah, just briefly. 78 00:13:41,100 --> 00:13:42,899 That... eh... 79 00:13:45,033 --> 00:13:48,233 That love is not being afraid to die. 80 00:13:48,333 --> 00:13:52,533 That you're not afraid... not even afraid of death. 81 00:13:53,866 --> 00:13:58,633 - You call that 'coming home'? - For lack of a better word. 82 00:13:58,733 --> 00:14:03,066 It's when it feels good. That things are as they should be. 83 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:07,100 - 'Coming home'. Talk about boring... - Thanks. 84 00:14:07,233 --> 00:14:08,699 Well, it is. 85 00:14:08,833 --> 00:14:13,300 I mean, like somewhere you've never been before. 86 00:14:13,433 --> 00:14:18,133 Yet, you know: this is my home. He is my home. I know it. 87 00:14:18,266 --> 00:14:21,000 But does he know it too? 88 00:14:21,100 --> 00:14:25,733 I don't know. Perhaps that doesn't matter. 89 00:14:25,866 --> 00:14:28,733 And then? Once you know this? 90 00:14:30,066 --> 00:14:33,300 I am an instrument being played. 91 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:39,300 - What instrument are you then? - Not a recorder, I guess. 92 00:14:39,433 --> 00:14:41,699 I am a double bass. 93 00:14:41,833 --> 00:14:43,933 I lean against his chest. 94 00:14:44,066 --> 00:14:49,633 With his left hand he touches my nipples. With his right hand he plays my sex. 95 00:14:49,733 --> 00:14:52,133 And that's how you come home? 96 00:14:52,266 --> 00:14:57,899 Together, we make music. The result of our love is pure music. 97 00:14:58,033 --> 00:14:59,833 Love. 98 00:14:59,933 --> 00:15:03,266 And what if he suddenly drops you? 99 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:05,533 He wouldn't. 100 00:15:05,666 --> 00:15:07,466 He would never do that. 101 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:11,200 - How do you know? - That's that trust. 102 00:15:11,300 --> 00:15:15,500 That's the 'coming home'. He would never betray me. 103 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,000 Isn't that nice. 104 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:24,266 Ah, yes. Here it is. I found it. 105 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:31,100 'This is why a fertile being, when it encounters beauty, feels happy and elated. 106 00:15:31,233 --> 00:15:35,600 It will blossom and fertilise and reproduce.' 107 00:15:35,699 --> 00:15:40,100 'But when it is confronted with ugliness... 108 00:15:40,233 --> 00:15:42,699 it feels gloomy and sad. 109 00:15:44,333 --> 00:15:49,666 It turns away, it contracts, it doesn't want to anymore.' 110 00:15:55,100 --> 00:15:56,899 Plato. 111 00:15:58,866 --> 00:16:04,933 'This is why all fertile beings that are swollen with juice... 112 00:16:05,066 --> 00:16:09,633 become so very excited with beauty... 113 00:16:09,733 --> 00:16:12,833 as this beauty relieves all pain.' 114 00:16:15,300 --> 00:16:19,600 Which is not like hunger or thirst. Then you know what you're missing. 115 00:16:19,699 --> 00:16:25,800 In this case, you won't know until you meet 'him'. Ah, it was him I was looking for. 116 00:16:28,833 --> 00:16:34,800 While the starved come crawling to our house in droves, looking for... 117 00:16:34,899 --> 00:16:36,699 sex. 118 00:16:38,233 --> 00:16:40,300 For oblivion. 119 00:16:40,433 --> 00:16:43,533 Wanting out, no longer wanting to be. 120 00:16:43,666 --> 00:16:46,866 Wanting to be dead, without being dead. 121 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:48,500 How do you mean? 122 00:16:48,633 --> 00:16:53,300 No more compromise. No more 'I am really just the neighbour'... 123 00:16:53,433 --> 00:16:58,899 or 'I am just an econometrics student' or 'adjunct-clerk of the court'. 124 00:16:59,033 --> 00:17:02,400 - Is there such a job? - There won't be then. 125 00:17:02,500 --> 00:17:05,066 No more construction worker either. 126 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:10,000 Only his strong arms and thighs... 127 00:17:10,100 --> 00:17:13,066 his chest with hardened nipples. 128 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:18,800 His waiting for the gaze he catches without having to look for it himself. 129 00:17:18,899 --> 00:17:24,300 - This is how the worker comes home? - This is how the worker 'comes'. 130 00:17:24,433 --> 00:17:28,600 That's how I came home. To you. 131 00:17:28,699 --> 00:17:31,333 I wasn't even an 'I' anymore. 132 00:17:31,466 --> 00:17:33,933 I was nothing but tongue. 133 00:17:34,066 --> 00:17:36,133 Just licking. 134 00:17:36,266 --> 00:17:38,699 There was only anus... 135 00:17:38,833 --> 00:17:43,033 scrotum, a penis breast-feeding. 136 00:18:00,866 --> 00:18:06,066 - Meets the definition of a masochist. - It sounds like a sect. 137 00:18:08,033 --> 00:18:10,233 It sounds like love. 138 00:18:13,033 --> 00:18:14,666 Love? 139 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:18,333 Love lives at the point of the tongue that licks me. 140 00:18:18,466 --> 00:18:22,200 At the tips of the fingers that touch me. 141 00:18:22,300 --> 00:18:24,933 You say that then you no longer exist? 142 00:18:25,066 --> 00:18:30,300 That to you, love means that you then no longer exist? 143 00:18:30,433 --> 00:18:33,400 That you no longer need to be 'I'? 144 00:18:33,500 --> 00:18:36,000 No longer an'I'. 145 00:18:37,533 --> 00:18:42,100 Then I only 'am'. Without knowing who, or why. 146 00:18:42,233 --> 00:18:44,400 Or where. 147 00:18:44,500 --> 00:18:50,300 I whirl blamelessly through an omnipotent universe that exists only for me. 148 00:18:52,033 --> 00:18:54,233 But for you, this is... 149 00:18:55,500 --> 00:19:00,266 I only exist, I only 'am'... 150 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:05,100 I only become an 'I' through the gaze of the other. 151 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:11,899 Without an audience every actor is, I am... 152 00:19:12,033 --> 00:19:18,066 nothing but a pathetic, insignificant, scared little man. 153 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,699 Only with an audience I truly come to life. 154 00:19:21,833 --> 00:19:26,733 It is only through that audience that 'I' exist. 155 00:19:26,866 --> 00:19:31,666 Then this 'I' changes into what the audience wants me to be. 156 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:34,300 And that is...? 157 00:19:34,433 --> 00:19:39,100 It can be anything. That's not for me to decide. 158 00:19:39,233 --> 00:19:43,600 I may be an emperor, or a devil. 159 00:19:43,699 --> 00:19:45,699 A diva. 160 00:19:45,833 --> 00:19:50,800 A construction worker, an econometrics student. 161 00:19:50,899 --> 00:19:54,033 Or an adjunct-clerk to the court. 162 00:19:54,133 --> 00:19:58,066 Even if such a person doesn't exist... 163 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:02,600 I still become them. Precisely because the audience wants it. 164 00:20:02,699 --> 00:20:07,100 So I give them that. That is the power of love. 165 00:20:09,033 --> 00:20:13,466 And thus you become the universe I am whirling through? 166 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:15,800 Where I come home? 167 00:20:18,233 --> 00:20:21,533 Yes. But it is you who decide... 168 00:20:21,666 --> 00:20:25,666 who or what I become. You decide who you come home to. 169 00:20:26,899 --> 00:20:30,733 'Those trained in love to this degree... 170 00:20:30,866 --> 00:20:35,466 and who have seen, in the right order, all this beauty... 171 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:41,100 will, when the initiation into the mysteries of love is nigh... 172 00:20:41,233 --> 00:20:46,800 then suddenly see a vision rise. A wondrous beauty. 173 00:20:46,899 --> 00:20:52,233 And it is this beauty that all his previous efforts were aimed at.' 174 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:58,000 - Is that what you mean? - I guess. 175 00:20:58,100 --> 00:21:04,200 I embody that vision. I embody that wondrous beauty. 176 00:21:04,300 --> 00:21:07,133 I embody anything you want. 177 00:21:09,833 --> 00:21:12,333 Sounds megalomaniacal. 178 00:21:12,466 --> 00:21:17,033 Meets all the criteria of a narcissistic disorder. 179 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:24,800 Love? 180 00:21:26,066 --> 00:21:27,866 No? 181 00:21:28,733 --> 00:21:31,100 Perhaps. 182 00:21:31,233 --> 00:21:33,833 If that's what it is to you. 183 00:21:33,933 --> 00:21:36,800 It's different for everyone, right? 184 00:21:36,899 --> 00:21:40,466 In my case, love is... 185 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,033 that I get your olives. 186 00:21:43,133 --> 00:21:48,066 - And your shit, and your... - Olives? I never eat olives. 187 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,400 That's why I get them. 188 00:21:51,233 --> 00:21:56,466 I cherish the leftovers from your desires. I am the mediator. 189 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,866 - The bookkeeper. - And that's love? 190 00:22:01,833 --> 00:22:08,000 I am the air that vibrates so the music is heard and the words are understood. 191 00:22:10,833 --> 00:22:15,533 I am the nerve that enables the skin to feel a caress. 192 00:22:15,666 --> 00:22:18,699 I am the bed you make love on. 193 00:22:19,933 --> 00:22:23,333 I am the genitals you make love with. 194 00:22:25,866 --> 00:22:29,633 I sacrifice myself for your happiness. 195 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,633 And that's what makes me happy. 196 00:22:33,733 --> 00:22:35,933 And that is love. 197 00:22:37,233 --> 00:22:39,266 Are you happy? 198 00:22:42,266 --> 00:22:44,466 Why not? 199 00:22:47,133 --> 00:22:49,800 Is Wim saying that he is impotent? 200 00:22:51,100 --> 00:22:54,699 A freeloader, a voyeur... 201 00:22:57,033 --> 00:23:00,500 an opportunist, a pimp. 202 00:23:00,633 --> 00:23:03,633 A loser, who will never admit it. 203 00:23:04,699 --> 00:23:08,433 - It sounds ridiculous. - Desperate. 204 00:23:08,533 --> 00:23:11,500 - It sounds like love. - Love? 205 00:23:11,633 --> 00:23:13,699 You call that love? 206 00:23:13,833 --> 00:23:16,500 'Sounds' like love, I said. 207 00:23:18,899 --> 00:23:22,600 'That he, together with others or another, or alone... 208 00:23:22,699 --> 00:23:26,500 has caused, deliberately and intentionally... 209 00:23:26,633 --> 00:23:30,033 grievous bodily harm, being HIV infection.' 210 00:23:30,133 --> 00:23:34,500 'By together with one or more accomplices... 211 00:23:34,633 --> 00:23:40,033 injecting another person, knowingly and after deliberation... 212 00:23:40,133 --> 00:23:46,833 with HIV-infected blood in the anus or buttock and or in the anal cavity... 213 00:23:46,933 --> 00:23:50,866 and or near the anus; said HIV-infected blood... 214 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:56,000 being a substance hazardous to life or health.' 215 00:23:57,666 --> 00:24:01,933 If you have known love, you'll want to share it. 216 00:24:03,233 --> 00:24:05,433 You have to share it. 217 00:24:10,666 --> 00:24:16,300 'At first, if his guide points him in the right direction... 218 00:24:16,433 --> 00:24:21,733 he will be in love with just one body and bring forth exquisite words in it. 219 00:24:21,866 --> 00:24:27,266 Then he will realise that the beauty of one arbitrary body... 220 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:31,400 is related to that of another. 221 00:24:31,500 --> 00:24:37,933 And that it would be very foolish, when chasing external beauty... 222 00:24:38,066 --> 00:24:43,200 not to regard the beauty of all bodies as one and the same.' 223 00:24:43,300 --> 00:24:46,400 That would be very foolish. 224 00:24:46,500 --> 00:24:49,100 Indeed. 225 00:24:49,233 --> 00:24:55,899 Bring everyone unto us. This is my house. This is our house. 226 00:25:02,866 --> 00:25:05,433 And come they did. 227 00:25:05,533 --> 00:25:10,833 Of course they came. Who wouldn't, to such a house? 228 00:25:10,933 --> 00:25:17,233 - But they didn't know what they did there? - They knew very well what they were after. 229 00:25:18,433 --> 00:25:21,833 This is about sexual acts... 230 00:25:21,933 --> 00:25:28,699 performed with someone he knew to be unconscious or less conscious... 231 00:25:28,833 --> 00:25:31,400 or physically incapacitated. 232 00:25:31,500 --> 00:25:36,600 'Conditions between alertness and complete oblivion... 233 00:25:36,699 --> 00:25:42,866 in which this person cannot within reason be expected to resist sexual advances.' 234 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,733 I don't deny that. 235 00:25:46,866 --> 00:25:50,500 Plaintiff M had voluntarily taken XTC. 236 00:25:50,633 --> 00:25:54,833 He felt very guilty that because of his condition... 237 00:25:54,933 --> 00:25:59,300 he couldn't remember whether or not he had 'cooperated'. 238 00:25:59,433 --> 00:26:03,233 During the investigation, he gave different versions... 239 00:26:03,333 --> 00:26:07,800 of the positions they took during double penetration. 240 00:26:07,899 --> 00:26:13,533 Yes, and XTC and alcohol were consumed at these parties. And GHB. 241 00:26:13,666 --> 00:26:19,699 Voluntarily or not, making some plaintiffs 'lose' entire episodes of that night. 242 00:26:19,833 --> 00:26:22,266 Others remember whole pieces. 243 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,899 - That's not what it's about. - About what then? 244 00:27:30,699 --> 00:27:33,100 What is it about then? 245 00:27:34,733 --> 00:27:42,466 'But for all other beauties, including love, the following holds true: 246 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,266 they come and they go.' 247 00:27:47,033 --> 00:27:48,833 Plato. 248 00:27:53,133 --> 00:27:58,933 Love may deny death, but even love doesn't cancel death. 249 00:27:59,066 --> 00:28:01,733 Only one thing can do so. 250 00:28:01,866 --> 00:28:03,833 True beauty. 251 00:28:03,933 --> 00:28:09,033 - So you mean... - Being horny, desperate. 252 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,433 By that I mean death. 253 00:28:12,533 --> 00:28:14,600 So you admit it? 254 00:28:17,066 --> 00:28:23,033 I admit that love is an attempt to deny death. 255 00:28:23,133 --> 00:28:25,733 An attempt to cancel death. 256 00:28:25,866 --> 00:28:29,533 And I admit that that is a fallacy. 257 00:28:32,899 --> 00:28:35,500 So love only leads to death? 258 00:28:36,733 --> 00:28:39,899 So love can only be criminal. 259 00:28:52,066 --> 00:28:54,033 Love is... 260 00:28:58,333 --> 00:29:00,533 Love is lethal. 261 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,200 But never criminal. 262 00:29:05,133 --> 00:29:08,133 True love is simply without measure. 263 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:26,600 Well... 264 00:30:27,833 --> 00:30:32,600 We were on the bed in my bedroom. He was on top of me. 265 00:30:35,066 --> 00:30:37,433 He was fucking me. 266 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,800 And at some point I wanted him to stop, but he didn't. 267 00:30:42,899 --> 00:30:44,933 And... 268 00:30:46,233 --> 00:30:52,200 He kept at it and held me down, on the bed. He was choking me. 269 00:30:52,300 --> 00:30:55,100 'I will kill you if you don't obey.' 270 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,333 And that... well... 271 00:31:09,433 --> 00:31:13,266 It really upset me and it... 272 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:16,866 Yes, well... 273 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,466 It still upsets me. 274 00:31:29,699 --> 00:31:36,899 You just said that what you liked about Peter was his roughness. 275 00:31:37,033 --> 00:31:40,533 Yes, but up to a certain point. 276 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:48,699 And when one reaches one's limit, the other should stop. 277 00:31:48,833 --> 00:31:53,100 No matter how exciting and rough sex may be, there are limits. 278 00:31:53,233 --> 00:31:57,300 Like, I mean, you can't just beat somebody up. 279 00:31:58,300 --> 00:32:02,266 So, in spite of... 280 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:06,066 how it should be... 281 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:11,466 in such a dominant-submissive relationship... 282 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,133 the submissive one always sets the limit. 283 00:32:15,266 --> 00:32:19,800 And it is he who controls the game, as it were. 284 00:32:23,833 --> 00:32:28,300 If you could choose between being victim or perpetrator... 285 00:32:28,433 --> 00:32:31,066 which would you choose? 286 00:32:43,699 --> 00:32:49,233 You can't... It's two answers, really, that I'd like to give. 287 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:57,666 The first answer would be 'victim', because then I would be innocent. 288 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:03,133 On the other hand, I would say 'perpetrator'. 289 00:33:03,266 --> 00:33:07,833 Because then I would have had control over what I did. 290 00:33:07,933 --> 00:33:11,866 So you see, it's not either/or. 291 00:33:14,100 --> 00:33:17,266 There are pros and cons to both roles. 292 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:24,266 - When did you first meet Peter? - On 18 September 2004. 293 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:29,500 - Where was this? - On a dating site. 294 00:33:29,633 --> 00:33:33,833 That sounds respectable, but it was a site for sex dates. 295 00:33:33,933 --> 00:33:41,200 - Then he and Wim came to my place. - Wim was a friend of his? 296 00:33:41,300 --> 00:33:46,066 That's what he said, but Wim, for a long time, had been his... 297 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,066 I don't exactly know what. Something. 298 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:54,200 More than just a friend. They have been living together for ages. 299 00:33:54,300 --> 00:33:57,933 But they pretended they were just 'friends'. 300 00:33:59,066 --> 00:34:02,500 And what happened on this date? 301 00:34:02,633 --> 00:34:05,933 We met at my place to have sex. 302 00:34:06,066 --> 00:34:08,466 So we did. It was very good. 303 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,100 So, we exchanged phone numbers. 304 00:34:15,699 --> 00:34:20,933 We felt like meeting up again. That was the first date. 305 00:34:21,066 --> 00:34:24,533 And the next date, was that soon after? 306 00:34:26,333 --> 00:34:31,133 Yes, within a few days, I think. A week. I don't remember exactly. 307 00:34:31,266 --> 00:34:36,233 - Always the three of you? With Wim? - No. 308 00:34:36,333 --> 00:34:41,833 I made it clear I liked him better than Wim. 309 00:34:41,933 --> 00:34:46,266 Wim just wasn't my type, as a sex partner. 310 00:34:47,533 --> 00:34:55,100 When did you get the idea to invite others? How did that happen? 311 00:34:55,233 --> 00:34:59,633 Well, that was mainly Peter's idea. 312 00:35:01,699 --> 00:35:08,100 I thought just the two of us was okay, but that wasn't enough for him. 313 00:35:08,233 --> 00:35:14,033 He'd check the chat box to see if anyone was around. That sort of thing. 314 00:35:15,133 --> 00:35:19,733 How did that make you feel, not being enough? 315 00:35:19,866 --> 00:35:23,100 Well, ehm... 316 00:35:25,233 --> 00:35:30,800 It didn't really depress me or anything. 317 00:35:30,899 --> 00:35:35,433 But I didn't feel the need to always have others join us. 318 00:35:37,300 --> 00:35:41,133 How did you prepare, when there were others? 319 00:35:41,266 --> 00:35:45,633 We'd dim the lights and put a large mattress in the living room. 320 00:35:45,733 --> 00:35:51,333 Some drinks, and everyone knows why they are there, so... 321 00:35:51,466 --> 00:35:54,533 - Why were they there? - For sex. 322 00:35:57,633 --> 00:36:02,033 A great 'advantage' of a chat box... 323 00:36:02,133 --> 00:36:09,233 is that people can say what they like or not, so you can choose who to meet or not. 324 00:36:09,333 --> 00:36:14,100 And was it made clear that there would be unsafe sex? 325 00:36:14,233 --> 00:36:16,533 That... Yes. 326 00:36:19,500 --> 00:36:24,899 About those parties. What were they like? How many people came? 327 00:36:25,033 --> 00:36:32,066 - Were there friends you already knew? - No. Peter knew some of them. 328 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:37,800 They would join us sometimes. 329 00:36:37,899 --> 00:36:39,466 You know. 330 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:44,500 There might be three of us, or five. 331 00:36:44,633 --> 00:36:50,233 Or two, and three came in, left again, and four would come in. Like that. 332 00:36:50,333 --> 00:36:54,500 - Is that why it went on for so long? - Yes. 333 00:36:56,066 --> 00:37:02,733 Usually from about 9 PM to 4 AM, or whatever. 334 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:11,433 So some would be there at 9 PM and leave sooner? 335 00:37:11,533 --> 00:37:15,266 Yes, as soon as they were 'finished'. 336 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,866 And some would stay all night. 337 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,833 And was it like an orgy all the time or...? 338 00:37:23,933 --> 00:37:30,066 No, I mean, it's physically impossible to have sex for six hours... 339 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:34,133 so there were breaks and, you know. 340 00:37:34,266 --> 00:37:38,866 You know, at some point we were with so many... 341 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:44,333 that we didn't even know anymore what part belonged to whom. 342 00:37:47,899 --> 00:37:52,133 And that was also like 'hot'? Like... 343 00:37:52,266 --> 00:37:57,866 Yes, but also confusing. If you no longer know what belongs to whom... 344 00:37:58,000 --> 00:37:59,933 or what their names are. 345 00:38:00,066 --> 00:38:04,100 It sounds vulgar, and I guess it was. 346 00:38:06,133 --> 00:38:08,866 Vulgar... I don't know. 347 00:38:10,133 --> 00:38:13,400 And when was the first time something occurred... 348 00:38:13,500 --> 00:38:17,033 that you later felt was not okay at all? 349 00:38:18,033 --> 00:38:20,833 The first time it concerned myself. 350 00:38:20,933 --> 00:38:25,200 When he secretly spiked my drink with GHB. 351 00:38:28,866 --> 00:38:33,800 Can you remember when you yourself had the feeling... 352 00:38:33,899 --> 00:38:37,200 you did something that was not okay? 353 00:38:50,500 --> 00:38:55,033 One thing I never felt good about... 354 00:38:55,133 --> 00:39:00,800 is that when I knew I had HIV, I didn't tell others. 355 00:39:02,533 --> 00:39:09,800 - Would people say that in a chat box? - No, only that the sex was unsafe. 356 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,333 But it's also, like... 357 00:39:18,500 --> 00:39:22,266 I mean, I did feel... 358 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:27,899 that the text in the ads were such that anyone could know... 359 00:39:28,033 --> 00:39:30,200 or at least suspect... 360 00:39:30,300 --> 00:39:36,066 that with unsafe sex, and drugs, and other people... 361 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:41,200 that there was an obvious risk of HIV. 362 00:39:41,300 --> 00:39:44,300 It wasn't always with the same people. 363 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:48,699 And, ehm... 364 00:39:50,666 --> 00:39:52,866 You also think... 365 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:59,033 that people who want to do everything safe and are very afraid of HIV... 366 00:39:59,133 --> 00:40:02,533 would not respond to that kind of ad. 367 00:40:02,666 --> 00:40:07,666 They would respond to 'hugging-by-candlelight' ads. 368 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:12,833 And if these things are mentioned so explicitly... 369 00:40:12,933 --> 00:40:16,533 then you are aware of where you're going. 370 00:40:16,666 --> 00:40:24,200 So, the naivety as portrayed by some of those who pressed charges... 371 00:40:24,300 --> 00:40:28,699 did irritate me sometimes. Then I think 'Come on... 372 00:40:28,833 --> 00:40:34,266 you know what you responded to, what will happen, it's all in the ad... 373 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:40,066 and you're still surprised?' I've always found that a little odd. 374 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:45,633 It's a bit contradictory, as you first said that was what you felt guilty about. 375 00:40:45,733 --> 00:40:48,933 I'd rather have told people. 376 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:53,800 But I didn't. 377 00:40:57,466 --> 00:41:00,866 You've been convicted... 378 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,800 of assault. What type of assault? 379 00:41:03,899 --> 00:41:05,699 It was... 380 00:41:08,633 --> 00:41:11,033 Phew, that's a hard question. 381 00:41:11,133 --> 00:41:16,200 I mean, in the sense that it's hard to say it out loud. 382 00:41:16,300 --> 00:41:21,733 It was injecting people with HIV-infected blood. 383 00:41:23,733 --> 00:41:29,833 - Do you remember having done that? - Yes. Unfortunately. 384 00:41:34,300 --> 00:41:36,466 How did you do this? 385 00:41:55,866 --> 00:42:00,699 Peter would take blood from my arm. 386 00:42:04,533 --> 00:42:10,400 Peter would stick the syringe into someone's buttock and I would empty it. 387 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:17,066 Were they conscious when this took place? 388 00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:23,933 No, Peter always made sure they were heavily drugged. 389 00:42:25,533 --> 00:42:27,333 So was I. 390 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,666 So you were intoxicated yourself... 391 00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:41,699 but you do remember how you felt at the time. 392 00:42:43,233 --> 00:42:46,133 What did you feel? 393 00:42:46,266 --> 00:42:48,466 The same I still feel today. 394 00:43:02,133 --> 00:43:05,133 It's unimaginable I ever did this. 395 00:43:09,666 --> 00:43:11,666 Terribly... 396 00:43:14,933 --> 00:43:17,266 low and mean. 397 00:43:24,033 --> 00:43:28,899 Painful, not only for the victims, but for myself as well. 398 00:43:29,033 --> 00:43:31,833 I've damaged myself enormously. 399 00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:36,266 - Hello. - Hi. Peter. 400 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:38,000 I'm Tim. 401 00:44:38,100 --> 00:44:41,100 - Did you find us easily? - Yes, no problem. 402 00:44:41,233 --> 00:44:43,600 - I'll take your coat. - Thanks. 403 00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:52,000 Wow. 404 00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:57,100 Quite a view you have from here. 405 00:44:57,233 --> 00:45:00,233 There's the village. Did you see the swimming pool? 406 00:45:00,333 --> 00:45:04,533 - Yes, I saw it. And those plants? - Potatoes. 407 00:45:04,666 --> 00:45:07,266 - Coffee? - Yes, please. 408 00:45:12,266 --> 00:45:14,866 Have you lived here long? 409 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:20,733 I lived here with Wim a couple of years, before this whole thing. 410 00:45:23,899 --> 00:45:26,699 We've always been quite content here. 411 00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:33,333 Wim couldn't be here today? 412 00:45:33,466 --> 00:45:35,866 He had to go to work. 413 00:45:46,833 --> 00:45:49,333 Where did Wim put the coffee? 414 00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,233 I'm still finding my way around here. 415 00:45:56,333 --> 00:45:59,233 Wim is a bit chaotic. 416 00:46:01,133 --> 00:46:03,699 - You like it strong? - Yes, please. 417 00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:14,866 - You like to cook? Being in the kitchen? - I do the cooking. Wim seldom does. 418 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:18,633 What is your signature dish? What are you good at? 419 00:46:18,733 --> 00:46:21,133 All pastas, basically. 420 00:46:22,233 --> 00:46:24,266 Pasta, pasta. 421 00:46:31,899 --> 00:46:35,733 - I'll whip it up for you. - That's very kind of you. 422 00:46:38,699 --> 00:46:43,533 - You know this system? - I think I've seen it before, yes. 423 00:46:49,500 --> 00:46:52,100 - Shall we go to the living? - Can I help? 424 00:46:52,233 --> 00:46:54,100 No, I've got it. 425 00:46:58,899 --> 00:47:02,933 What is the first thing you did upon your release? 426 00:47:03,066 --> 00:47:06,266 I was very glad, of course. 427 00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:10,633 Wim cooked dinner for me, that first night. 428 00:47:10,733 --> 00:47:15,633 The second day I didn't want to go out. I was afraid of other people. 429 00:47:15,733 --> 00:47:23,200 But yesterday I went over to the neighbour and it was okay to see her again. 430 00:47:23,300 --> 00:47:28,933 - Is she a friend of yours? - No, just a good neighbour. 431 00:47:29,066 --> 00:47:33,833 And she supported Wim, which I think is nice of her. 432 00:47:33,933 --> 00:47:41,033 Unlike other neighbours, who didn't respond well, but this one was there. 433 00:47:41,133 --> 00:47:43,400 They didn't respond well? 434 00:47:43,500 --> 00:47:48,466 Because of what happened. I think they are afraid of us. 435 00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:51,333 I can't solve that. 436 00:47:51,466 --> 00:47:57,466 - Why not? - Because it's nobody's business. 437 00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:02,800 That's the thing. All these other people didn't understand it at all. 438 00:48:02,899 --> 00:48:05,066 - All these people... - Out there. 439 00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:09,133 Like those 14 people who pressed charges? 440 00:48:09,266 --> 00:48:13,899 Yes, that's what we really should be talking about. 441 00:48:17,300 --> 00:48:21,333 They assumed the role of victims. 442 00:48:21,466 --> 00:48:25,666 And I don't think... 443 00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:29,833 that I did them as much harm as what I'm blamed for. 444 00:48:32,066 --> 00:48:36,500 What can you accept of the accusations made against you? 445 00:48:36,633 --> 00:48:40,699 Maybe it wasn't the right thing to do... 446 00:48:40,833 --> 00:48:44,100 and certain things I shouldn't have done. 447 00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:47,866 But I didn't need to be locked up. 448 00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:51,666 Can you give an example of what you shouldn't have done? 449 00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,833 Yes, well... 450 00:48:54,933 --> 00:49:00,400 I've given people drugs, but they wanted to take drugs. 451 00:49:00,500 --> 00:49:03,800 Then you know something will change. 452 00:49:06,033 --> 00:49:10,233 Things have happened. They call it rape, but I don't. 453 00:49:10,333 --> 00:49:14,933 Not when they surrender themselves to me. Does that make me a rapist? 454 00:49:15,066 --> 00:49:20,666 I didn't drag anyone from the street into my car and raped them. 455 00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:26,500 They came to my house, they wanted to join the party. 456 00:49:26,633 --> 00:49:32,533 In retrospect I find it quite beautiful, not a criminal thing at all. 457 00:49:32,666 --> 00:49:35,933 What happened there was full of love, I think. 458 00:49:36,066 --> 00:49:39,000 That's why I wanted to do this interview. 459 00:49:44,333 --> 00:49:51,333 Love and sex. Do they go together well or do you see them as separate entities? 460 00:49:52,666 --> 00:49:54,533 Well, I... 461 00:49:54,666 --> 00:50:00,133 Yes, I see them as separate things. You shouldn't confuse the two. 462 00:50:01,833 --> 00:50:04,866 Those parties were not about love. 463 00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:10,400 They were about sex, which is a beautiful thing... 464 00:50:12,500 --> 00:50:15,533 but it's different from love. So... 465 00:50:15,666 --> 00:50:21,200 If you confuse the two, it's not fun anymore, I think. 466 00:50:26,100 --> 00:50:31,400 At these parties you were having unsafe sex. 467 00:50:31,500 --> 00:50:35,933 Whether voluntary or not, we'll leave that out for now. 468 00:50:36,066 --> 00:50:41,500 What does it mean for you to be HIV-positive? 469 00:50:43,300 --> 00:50:45,333 Well, I... 470 00:50:46,533 --> 00:50:48,533 Yes, well... 471 00:50:50,266 --> 00:50:53,266 In a way, it felt like a nice certification. 472 00:50:54,400 --> 00:51:00,899 I mean, it is a form of belonging with others who are the same. 473 00:51:01,033 --> 00:51:05,066 I think there is a certain beauty in that. 474 00:51:06,300 --> 00:51:08,433 I, ehm... 475 00:51:08,533 --> 00:51:13,600 I enjoyed throwing those parties for people who all had HIV. 476 00:51:13,699 --> 00:51:18,833 And even if not all of them were HIV-positive... 477 00:51:18,933 --> 00:51:22,699 I always felt it would be great if everyone was. 478 00:51:22,833 --> 00:51:26,899 Because then everything was possible. 479 00:51:28,066 --> 00:51:32,300 What I gathered from the court reports... 480 00:51:32,433 --> 00:51:38,466 was that you and Hans also often said that safe sex was practiced. 481 00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:43,133 Yes. If you are both HIV-positive, then it's safe, right? 482 00:51:43,266 --> 00:51:49,100 But from what I read, you also claimed not to have HIV and that therefore... 483 00:51:49,233 --> 00:51:56,100 - there was no risk of infection. - That's another bogus story. 484 00:51:56,233 --> 00:52:00,933 - Unproven at that. - Why would people say that? 485 00:52:01,066 --> 00:52:07,033 Some people see themselves as victims and present arguments... 486 00:52:07,133 --> 00:52:12,233 to make us the perpetrators, but I haven't done anything. 487 00:52:12,333 --> 00:52:15,933 - You see? - Hm, I don't know. 488 00:52:16,066 --> 00:52:18,266 It was their own choice. 489 00:52:20,100 --> 00:52:25,500 Blood was part of your sexual activities. What was that about? 490 00:52:25,633 --> 00:52:28,066 Blood is a very vital thing. 491 00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:32,833 Making contact through blood is a form of fusion. 492 00:52:32,933 --> 00:52:36,600 A sort of coming together. A symbiotic desire. 493 00:52:36,699 --> 00:52:40,233 And we felt good about that. 494 00:52:40,333 --> 00:52:45,400 Not as a dangerous thing, just smearing each other's blood on your skin. 495 00:52:47,699 --> 00:52:52,699 And if people objected, it didn't happen? It was never against their will? 496 00:52:52,833 --> 00:52:54,866 No. 497 00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:58,699 - And this is...? - Dana. 498 00:52:58,833 --> 00:53:06,233 - Have you had her for a long time? - She came here while I was in prison. 499 00:53:06,333 --> 00:53:11,066 Wim felt a bit lonely. We used to have two Labradors. 500 00:53:12,066 --> 00:53:16,466 I loved them. This dog doesn't mean that much to me. 501 00:53:18,066 --> 00:53:22,333 So, the parties you organised... 502 00:53:22,466 --> 00:53:25,433 did they take place in this house? 503 00:53:25,533 --> 00:53:28,699 No, mostly at Hans' place. 504 00:53:28,833 --> 00:53:31,433 In Colijn Street. Upstairs. 505 00:53:33,033 --> 00:53:39,066 Can you tell me more? I mean, how did... 506 00:53:40,333 --> 00:53:46,699 I don't think you should mention the street name. It's just a detail, but... 507 00:53:46,833 --> 00:53:50,899 So, we'll just do this bit again from the start. 508 00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:58,833 So, the parties you organised, did they take place in this house? 509 00:53:58,933 --> 00:54:02,833 No, at Hans' place. Upstairs. 510 00:54:02,933 --> 00:54:06,333 What were these parties like? 511 00:54:06,466 --> 00:54:10,733 Were they on weekends or on weekdays? 512 00:54:10,866 --> 00:54:17,233 It varied. We would plan evenings and receive people. 513 00:54:17,333 --> 00:54:22,633 Many people at the same time? Or also with just three or four people? 514 00:54:22,733 --> 00:54:25,633 Well, the more the better. 515 00:54:25,733 --> 00:54:29,066 Ideally, there would be 10, 12 or 15 people. 516 00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:33,233 - Sorry, cut. It's a small flat, so... - That's impossible? 517 00:54:33,333 --> 00:54:38,200 - Eight would be the maximum. - Okay, let's do it again. 518 00:54:38,300 --> 00:54:41,466 Ehm... We'll just do it again, right? 519 00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:47,433 So, these sex parties, were they held here, in this house? 520 00:54:47,533 --> 00:54:51,133 No, at Hans' place. Upstairs. 521 00:54:51,266 --> 00:54:54,699 What were these parties like? 522 00:54:54,833 --> 00:54:59,666 There would be 4, 5, 6, 7 or 8 people. Tops. 523 00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:08,300 People would come in, we served drinks, used some substances. 524 00:55:08,433 --> 00:55:12,633 There was music, one thing led to another... 525 00:55:12,733 --> 00:55:17,333 and people would start something. Others would join in or not. 526 00:55:17,466 --> 00:55:19,866 It was quite spontaneous. 527 00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:26,033 I kept an eye on things, to make sure everyone was at ease. 528 00:55:26,133 --> 00:55:29,699 At some point I would join in myself. 529 00:55:29,833 --> 00:55:33,699 It just developed very nicely. 530 00:56:33,319 --> 00:56:39,000 I studied plant biology. And I was always interested in plant diseases. 531 00:56:39,119 --> 00:56:44,119 I was fascinated that plants can also get sick like people do. 532 00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:49,879 And viruses was the most interesting of all. 533 00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:56,680 Because when a plant is infected with a virus you can't save it anymore. 534 00:57:06,639 --> 00:57:12,280 As a student, I found it really amazing, it's a thing that you don't see. 535 00:57:13,879 --> 00:57:19,519 It's so tiny. You need a very special microscope in order to see a virus. 536 00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:24,439 And it needs the plant, to grow. 537 00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:27,879 The virus gets into its genome... 538 00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:33,639 and then it starts reproducing together with the plants cells. 539 00:57:33,759 --> 00:57:37,800 It has to be inside the plant in order to live. 540 00:57:39,039 --> 00:57:44,639 Of course, they cause these heavy symptoms and the plant may die in the end. 541 00:57:45,176 --> 00:57:51,319 But what you can do is inject lighter version of the virus... 542 00:57:51,439 --> 00:57:56,079 which doesn't cause as much, so heavy symptoms. 543 00:57:56,200 --> 00:58:01,920 The plant accepts it, the symptoms aren't as heavy and it can grow... 544 00:58:02,039 --> 00:58:04,600 quite naturally. Like it would be. 545 00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:11,000 When the real heavy virus comes, the plant is already immune. 546 00:58:11,119 --> 00:58:14,400 It's actually the same like you do with humans. 547 00:58:14,519 --> 00:58:18,759 But actually the purpose of this virus is not to kill the host. 548 00:58:18,879 --> 00:58:23,639 Because if you kill the host, you cannot live further yourself. 549 00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:32,119 But by doing that, then it can find the one plant that will survive 550 00:58:32,239 --> 00:58:37,239 and it will carry on the virus without giving any symptoms from the plant. 551 00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:40,319 They actually live together. 552 00:58:40,439 --> 00:58:47,360 - So a virus would be an organism? - Yes, then it becomes part of this... 553 00:58:47,479 --> 00:58:54,039 collaboration, this system of the plant and the pathogen working together. 554 00:58:56,119 --> 00:59:00,119 But at the beginning of this process it looks quite severe. 555 00:59:00,239 --> 00:59:03,159 It looks like the virus is the bad guy. 556 00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:06,800 But I don't believe in good guys and bad guys. 557 00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:12,959 I like to think all works, in order to come down to... 558 00:59:13,079 --> 00:59:16,680 living together. And being-together. 559 00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:19,280 Does the plant also need the virus? 560 00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:23,639 Yes, it's funny. The virus and the tulips 561 00:59:23,759 --> 00:59:27,319 it changes the colour of the flower. 562 00:59:27,439 --> 00:59:31,959 And that can be very attractive for insects for example. 563 00:59:32,079 --> 00:59:38,360 Or it can get a different kind of light to the flower 564 00:59:38,479 --> 00:59:40,680 that can help the flower to grow. 565 00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:46,920 So it does have a benefit. It just looks different from what we're used to seeing. 566 00:59:47,039 --> 00:59:51,039 Like when you see a tulip, you always expect it to be yellow. 567 00:59:51,159 --> 00:59:55,920 So when the virus comes in and it turns the tulip red 568 00:59:56,039 --> 00:59:59,560 it's for us, not good. 569 00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:02,800 It's not for the tulip itself. 570 01:00:04,119 --> 01:00:08,200 Like when you're a grower of yellow tulips, you want to have all of them yellow. 571 01:00:08,319 --> 01:00:13,759 Because if you have some red ones inbetween them the flower show will not buy your bud. 572 01:00:13,879 --> 01:00:19,800 So then the virus is the bad guy in that case. 573 01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:26,839 For this experiment I need an infected flower... 574 01:00:26,959 --> 01:00:31,400 and a mortar and pestle to grind the petal. 575 01:00:31,519 --> 01:00:37,280 I will use this buffer which keeps the virus alive. 576 01:00:37,400 --> 01:00:43,519 I'll cut the petal with a razor. 577 01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:51,039 And then after the grinding I will use the syringe to inject... 578 01:00:51,159 --> 01:00:56,119 this inoculum in the bulb of the healthy flower. 579 01:01:06,519 --> 01:01:08,720 And now I just press 580 01:01:10,360 --> 01:01:15,200 the petal so the cells are open. 581 01:01:17,639 --> 01:01:22,000 And the virus is released in the liquid. 582 01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:32,600 Would flowers be trying to infect their neighbour flowers? 583 01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:38,439 No, it will happen because they are close to each other. 584 01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:46,280 But then the plant, when it's infected, it will communicate that to the others 585 01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:50,360 to let them know there is infection close-by. 586 01:01:50,479 --> 01:01:56,239 The plants around it will start inducing their immune systems. 587 01:01:56,360 --> 01:02:01,400 So that they can be prepared for the disease coming. 588 01:02:01,519 --> 01:02:04,560 So there is a different kind of communication. 589 01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:06,759 How does it work, that communication? 590 01:02:06,879 --> 01:02:13,920 Either volatile molecules. They produce in the air when the plant is infected. 591 01:02:14,039 --> 01:02:16,759 And it can also be through the roots. 592 01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:24,839 And the others pick it up, it's all a chemical reaction. 593 01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:31,560 So you were fascinated by viruses, but do you remember the first time you got sick? 594 01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:38,400 I always remember, also about when I was 10 or 12 years old. 595 01:02:38,519 --> 01:02:42,239 Around that age when the flu is quite heavy. 596 01:02:42,360 --> 01:02:45,759 And you need to stay in bed, and you sweat a lot 597 01:02:45,879 --> 01:02:52,000 and it's kind of good and bad thing at the same time. 598 01:02:52,119 --> 01:02:58,239 You don't want to be there but all this high temperature and the sweat 599 01:02:58,360 --> 01:03:03,039 and being under the blankets it brings a certain kind of comfort. 600 01:03:04,439 --> 01:03:09,560 I guess also you feel your body being alive. 601 01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:12,839 It's the moments you actually feel 602 01:03:12,959 --> 01:03:18,879 that there is more than your skin covering your bones. 603 01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:25,000 There is things inside you living and reacting. 604 01:03:26,239 --> 01:03:31,519 It's a sense of being alive, I don't know, being sick. 605 01:04:01,479 --> 01:04:07,200 Do you remember any other experiences with viruses? 606 01:04:09,439 --> 01:04:11,400 I don't remember. 607 01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:17,159 We talked about getting infected 608 01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:21,360 like as a human getting infected by someone. 609 01:04:21,479 --> 01:04:24,879 And what I find fascinating in that idea 610 01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:28,479 is that I find it a way of bonding. 611 01:04:28,600 --> 01:04:34,720 It's like when you were kids and you would... I don't know if you did that 612 01:04:34,839 --> 01:04:37,360 Like you would be, how do you call it? 613 01:04:37,479 --> 01:04:43,479 A blood friend with someone? When you cut your fingers and mix your blood... 614 01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:46,720 To become like brothers or sisters. 615 01:04:46,839 --> 01:04:52,639 It's the same thing when you get infected by someone, and you feel this virus 616 01:04:52,759 --> 01:04:57,519 is moving all over your body and then it comes from that person. 617 01:04:57,639 --> 01:05:01,360 It's a kind of very special gift. 618 01:05:01,479 --> 01:05:05,639 I'm not saying it's a thing to do, but... 619 01:05:05,759 --> 01:05:10,200 Yeah, it's a way to connect, maybe. 620 01:05:12,519 --> 01:05:19,639 It's just the idea of the virus moving through, in your blood. 621 01:05:21,720 --> 01:05:25,159 It is, I dunno, I just find it very... 622 01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:28,360 poetic idea, maybe. 623 01:05:28,479 --> 01:05:32,360 I always picture it, also, 624 01:05:32,479 --> 01:05:37,639 When I think about it I can see this little organism 625 01:05:37,759 --> 01:05:40,280 just moving all over the... 626 01:05:41,839 --> 01:05:44,119 your body. 627 01:05:44,239 --> 01:05:46,879 Then you have someone always with you. 628 01:06:19,519 --> 01:06:23,280 And now I will inject it 629 01:06:24,839 --> 01:06:26,839 in the bulb. 630 01:06:47,800 --> 01:06:50,000 It doesn't work well. 631 01:08:35,933 --> 01:08:37,733 Thanks. 632 01:08:37,866 --> 01:08:39,899 - Erik-Jan. - Max. 633 01:08:43,466 --> 01:08:45,500 - Verbeek. - Max. 634 01:09:01,133 --> 01:09:04,266 You wish to report an assault? 635 01:09:05,633 --> 01:09:08,933 - If you wish to call it that. Yes. - How else? 636 01:09:10,500 --> 01:09:13,100 I'd rather leave that up to you. 637 01:09:16,233 --> 01:09:21,733 - You contacted the three suspects yourself? - Via the Internet. 638 01:09:21,866 --> 01:09:25,600 You had sex with them before. At least with one of them. 639 01:09:25,699 --> 01:09:27,733 With two of them. 640 01:09:27,866 --> 01:09:32,800 - You knew these were sex parties. - That was the whole point, right? 641 01:09:32,899 --> 01:09:38,233 - You had been drinking, right? - To muster up your courage? 642 01:09:38,333 --> 01:09:41,733 - Because of the excitement. - And you took cocaine. 643 01:09:41,866 --> 01:09:44,466 No, I didn't. 644 01:09:46,833 --> 01:09:49,800 You wanted to push the envelope? 645 01:09:49,899 --> 01:09:52,800 You knew there would be unsafe sex. 646 01:09:52,899 --> 01:09:56,600 - Unsafe sex? - Because no-one would be HIV-positive? 647 01:09:56,699 --> 01:09:59,233 - Or so they said. - Which you believed. 648 01:09:59,333 --> 01:10:01,800 - You knew this. - I believed them, yes. 649 01:10:01,899 --> 01:10:04,066 So, naive. 650 01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:07,266 - You smoked a joint, right? - Two joints. Three? 651 01:10:07,400 --> 01:10:10,699 You wanted uninhibited sex, didn't you? 652 01:10:10,833 --> 01:10:12,933 Push the envelope, right? 653 01:10:13,066 --> 01:10:15,633 'I'll fuck your brains out!' -'Harder'. 654 01:10:15,733 --> 01:10:19,000 - 'Harder'. - And then you suddenly felt sick. 655 01:10:19,100 --> 01:10:21,433 You felt unwell? 656 01:10:21,533 --> 01:10:24,466 You had a bit of a spell? 657 01:10:24,600 --> 01:10:28,000 - While you knew... - And were conscious of... 658 01:10:28,100 --> 01:10:31,600 - being doubly penetrated? - Two dicks up your ass. 659 01:10:31,699 --> 01:10:36,266 Yes, I knew. But not what happened after that. 660 01:10:36,400 --> 01:10:39,899 After that, you didn't know anymore. 661 01:10:40,033 --> 01:10:43,633 After that, you allegedly didn't know anymore. 662 01:10:43,733 --> 01:10:46,666 He didn't know anymore. 663 01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:50,800 - The bastards had suddenly spiked his wine. - Oh dear. 664 01:10:50,899 --> 01:10:55,066 - Maybe they put GHB in his wine. - Or was it beer? 665 01:10:55,200 --> 01:10:57,333 Or was it vodka? 666 01:10:57,466 --> 01:11:02,533 - Wasn't it like a children's party? - Playing doctors and nurses gone wrong? 667 01:11:03,800 --> 01:11:08,600 - But with real syringes. - And now they are monsters? 668 01:11:08,699 --> 01:11:10,300 That's not what I said. 669 01:11:13,833 --> 01:11:18,733 I'm saying they took advantage of the situation. 670 01:11:18,866 --> 01:11:25,533 - Maybe you created this situation yourself. - Partly created it yourself. 671 01:11:25,666 --> 01:11:29,300 Didn't you find it all very 'arousing'? 672 01:11:30,666 --> 01:11:33,466 It was very stupid of me, I know. 673 01:11:35,699 --> 01:11:38,933 - You had a girlfriend. - Yes, I had. 674 01:11:40,200 --> 01:11:43,500 - You had a young son. - I have a young son. 675 01:11:44,600 --> 01:11:48,500 - And you never thought of... - Of course I have. 676 01:11:48,633 --> 01:11:52,800 - All the same, you... - And was punished for it. 677 01:11:54,266 --> 01:11:58,133 Then suddenly, you woke up in the park. 678 01:11:58,266 --> 01:12:01,100 - On a bench. - Without your shoes? 679 01:12:01,233 --> 01:12:03,433 And you had lost everything. 680 01:12:04,533 --> 01:12:06,633 Your girlfriend... 681 01:12:06,733 --> 01:12:09,066 - your son... - Your health. 682 01:12:09,200 --> 01:12:12,866 - Your job. - I still have my son. Sometimes. 683 01:12:14,300 --> 01:12:16,500 And you've been... 684 01:12:17,699 --> 01:12:20,733 I've been punished for it. 685 01:12:22,333 --> 01:12:24,133 For what? 686 01:12:25,300 --> 01:12:27,899 - For what? - What were you punished for? 687 01:12:28,033 --> 01:12:30,066 I've lost everything. 688 01:12:30,200 --> 01:12:32,200 That's not what I asked. 689 01:12:33,200 --> 01:12:34,600 No. 690 01:12:35,633 --> 01:12:38,033 Why did you go there? 691 01:12:39,733 --> 01:12:41,733 Several times. 692 01:12:42,899 --> 01:12:44,866 Why? 693 01:12:45,000 --> 01:12:48,066 Perhaps you wanted... 694 01:12:48,200 --> 01:12:50,466 Perhaps you expected... 695 01:12:51,666 --> 01:12:56,200 like so many people do, that beyond the horizon... 696 01:12:58,000 --> 01:13:02,500 like so many people know or think they know... 697 01:13:02,633 --> 01:13:04,633 that beyond the horizon... 698 01:13:06,333 --> 01:13:10,533 or at least somewhere... 699 01:13:10,666 --> 01:13:12,899 That it can't be... 700 01:13:14,233 --> 01:13:19,100 That you can't live with the idea, if there isn't somewhere... 701 01:13:19,233 --> 01:13:23,300 That that would be unbearable? 702 01:13:25,400 --> 01:13:29,899 That it all comes together, somewhere? 703 01:13:31,400 --> 01:13:34,933 And not only after death, because then there's nothing. 704 01:13:38,500 --> 01:13:44,833 That it would be an outrage if our lives were just shadow lives? 705 01:13:44,933 --> 01:13:51,666 If our life here would be nothing but a shadow of the real life over there? 706 01:13:53,233 --> 01:13:55,633 That we could not live here? 707 01:13:57,333 --> 01:13:59,333 How do you mean? 708 01:14:00,466 --> 01:14:04,266 I mean that most people assume... 709 01:14:04,400 --> 01:14:10,400 that the knowledge we often do possess, does not guide us. 710 01:14:11,500 --> 01:14:14,699 They think something else guides us. 711 01:14:14,833 --> 01:14:16,833 Sometimes pleasure... 712 01:14:18,533 --> 01:14:20,899 sometimes an urge... 713 01:14:21,033 --> 01:14:23,600 sometimes pain... 714 01:14:23,699 --> 01:14:26,133 and sometimes love. 715 01:14:26,266 --> 01:14:28,266 Often it is fear. 716 01:14:29,233 --> 01:14:32,266 They see knowledge as a slave... 717 01:14:32,400 --> 01:14:36,500 being dragged this way and that by all other influences. 718 01:14:40,066 --> 01:14:43,933 Is that also how you see knowledge? 719 01:14:44,066 --> 01:14:46,699 Or do you see it as a beautiful thing? 720 01:14:46,833 --> 01:14:49,833 Something that could lead us humans? 721 01:14:51,300 --> 01:14:57,133 Do you believe that if someone knows both right and wrong... 722 01:14:57,266 --> 01:15:04,600 he would let nothing persuade him to do a thing not prescribed by that knowledge? 723 01:15:07,733 --> 01:15:11,033 No. I wouldn't be here if I did. 724 01:15:13,100 --> 01:15:16,133 Then why are you here? 725 01:15:23,100 --> 01:15:26,300 I expected... 726 01:15:26,433 --> 01:15:28,266 I hoped... 727 01:15:30,733 --> 01:15:32,533 perhaps...