1 00:00:05,862 --> 00:00:07,482 - Hello. - Hi. I'm Louis. 2 00:00:07,586 --> 00:00:08,827 I'm Louis. 3 00:00:08,931 --> 00:00:11,724 Oh, I can't shake your hand. [laughter] 4 00:00:11,827 --> 00:00:12,931 Louis narrates: For 25 years, 5 00:00:13,034 --> 00:00:15,034 I've been making programmes about life 6 00:00:15,137 --> 00:00:16,551 in all its strangeness... 7 00:00:16,655 --> 00:00:18,689 Stand by. 8 00:00:18,793 --> 00:00:21,793 Information to follow. 9 00:00:21,896 --> 00:00:24,103 Louis narrates: ..mystery... - Who are you? 10 00:00:24,206 --> 00:00:27,000 - I'm Louis. - Who's Louis? 11 00:00:27,103 --> 00:00:28,724 Louis narrates: ..and angst... 12 00:00:28,827 --> 00:00:31,000 You OK, Nikki? 13 00:00:31,103 --> 00:00:32,413 Louis narrates: Trying to make connections 14 00:00:32,517 --> 00:00:35,275 with people who are, in different ways, 15 00:00:35,379 --> 00:00:36,586 on the edge. 16 00:00:36,689 --> 00:00:40,068 Not all of us want to be like this. 17 00:00:41,517 --> 00:00:43,758 Louis narrates: Recently, I decided to take a pause, 18 00:00:43,862 --> 00:00:45,931 and trawl through my old shows, 19 00:00:46,034 --> 00:00:48,724 looking again at some stories that stayed with me... 20 00:00:48,827 --> 00:00:50,896 Yeah, this has stuff in it. 21 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:53,344 Louis narrates: And to reach out to those I'd featured... 22 00:00:53,448 --> 00:00:56,241 Woman on phone: Look at you, Mr Beard and Moustache! 23 00:00:56,344 --> 00:00:57,931 I know. Don't I look distinguished? 24 00:00:58,034 --> 00:00:59,862 Louis narrates: ..to see how their lives have changed. 25 00:00:59,965 --> 00:01:01,344 You've been married six times. 26 00:01:01,448 --> 00:01:02,965 Henry VIII was married six times, 27 00:01:03,068 --> 00:01:04,586 so it's not unprecedented. 28 00:01:04,689 --> 00:01:05,931 [laughs] 29 00:01:06,034 --> 00:01:07,448 Hey. How you doing? 30 00:01:07,551 --> 00:01:09,689 - Good. How are you? - Good. 31 00:01:09,793 --> 00:01:12,000 Louis narrates: From all the hours of programmes, 32 00:01:12,103 --> 00:01:14,000 I've teased out a handful of themes... 33 00:01:14,103 --> 00:01:16,103 - This is gonna be the start 34 00:01:16,206 --> 00:01:18,620 of the second American Civil War! 35 00:01:18,724 --> 00:01:21,310 White revolution! 36 00:01:21,413 --> 00:01:23,586 - Why did you run? - Because they shoot anybody, 37 00:01:23,689 --> 00:01:24,896 and they don't care who it is. 38 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:25,896 Point blank range, 39 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:27,344 they'll pull a gun out and shoot you. 40 00:01:27,448 --> 00:01:29,517 Louis narrates: ..all of which, in different ways, 41 00:01:29,620 --> 00:01:32,310 go to the heart of what it means to be human. 42 00:01:32,413 --> 00:01:34,275 [man yells in rage] - You OK? 43 00:01:34,379 --> 00:01:35,896 It seems like every day, 44 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,206 I get delivered from something else 45 00:01:38,310 --> 00:01:39,724 that I didn't even know I had. 46 00:01:39,827 --> 00:01:41,310 Louis narrates: ..trying to figure out 47 00:01:41,413 --> 00:01:42,862 what I've learned about life, 48 00:01:42,965 --> 00:01:44,862 and about myself. 49 00:01:44,965 --> 00:01:47,827 What connection is there between a birth mum and a child? 50 00:01:47,931 --> 00:01:49,896 [sobbing] 51 00:01:50,724 --> 00:01:53,034 You don't feel loved by Rob? 52 00:01:53,137 --> 00:01:55,034 - No, not particularly. 53 00:01:55,137 --> 00:01:56,965 I feel like I'm a burden. 54 00:02:12,137 --> 00:02:13,620 It's wakey-wakey time. 55 00:02:13,724 --> 00:02:15,896 - No. 56 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:17,620 No, pants first, remember? 57 00:02:17,724 --> 00:02:20,517 Pants first. 58 00:02:20,620 --> 00:02:22,206 Louis narrates: In a way, I see family 59 00:02:22,310 --> 00:02:24,172 as the deepest of all subjects. 60 00:02:26,724 --> 00:02:28,517 The most intimate stories, 61 00:02:28,620 --> 00:02:30,344 because you see people at home, 62 00:02:30,448 --> 00:02:33,068 in settings that are as revealing 63 00:02:33,172 --> 00:02:34,758 as you could imagine. 64 00:02:36,758 --> 00:02:37,689 Over the years, 65 00:02:37,793 --> 00:02:39,862 family was obviously always in the background 66 00:02:39,965 --> 00:02:42,586 to all the stories I did in some way... 67 00:02:42,689 --> 00:02:47,620 ..but it didn't become the foreground until 2006... 68 00:02:47,724 --> 00:02:51,206 ..when I did the first story I ever did on a family. 69 00:02:51,310 --> 00:02:54,206 I mean, a family of a very strange sort, 70 00:02:54,310 --> 00:02:56,655 a family of religious zealots, 71 00:02:56,758 --> 00:02:59,103 extremists if you like, in Kansas. 72 00:03:00,482 --> 00:03:02,344 That's quite nice. 73 00:03:02,448 --> 00:03:04,344 It says, "Rules that you should obey, 74 00:03:04,448 --> 00:03:07,551 "from Noah Phelps-Roper to Louis." 75 00:03:07,655 --> 00:03:10,482 Noah, who would have been probably seven... 76 00:03:11,551 --> 00:03:13,827 ..six, seven years old, 77 00:03:13,931 --> 00:03:17,241 from the Phelps family, Westboro Baptist church - 78 00:03:17,344 --> 00:03:20,896 he made me this little booklet on how to conduct my life. 79 00:03:22,172 --> 00:03:24,896 "Obey, obey, don't kill people. 80 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:26,965 "Don't marry two people. 81 00:03:27,068 --> 00:03:29,310 "Don't go to a fag church. 82 00:03:29,413 --> 00:03:32,310 "Don't join the army or you will die." 83 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:37,724 I had known about the Westboro Baptist Church 84 00:03:37,827 --> 00:03:40,275 going back years. 85 00:03:40,379 --> 00:03:43,172 It was founded by a man called Pastor Fred Phelps. 86 00:03:43,275 --> 00:03:44,862 They were famous for their pickets 87 00:03:44,965 --> 00:03:45,965 where they would wave 88 00:03:46,068 --> 00:03:49,137 very offensive homophobic placards. 89 00:03:49,241 --> 00:03:51,896 And then, they began picketing the funerals of soldiers 90 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:53,379 killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. 91 00:03:53,482 --> 00:03:55,000 [bell tolls, protesters sing] 92 00:03:55,103 --> 00:03:57,344 And the idea was that the soldiers' deaths 93 00:03:57,448 --> 00:03:59,068 were punishment 94 00:03:59,172 --> 00:04:02,517 for America's tolerance of homosexuality. 95 00:04:02,620 --> 00:04:04,068 And so, based on that, 96 00:04:04,172 --> 00:04:06,689 we thought, "Maybe there's a story here." 97 00:04:06,793 --> 00:04:09,758 - ♪ I'm ashamed to be an American ♪ 98 00:04:09,862 --> 00:04:12,413 ♪ Where the fags can freely roam ♪ 99 00:04:12,517 --> 00:04:15,620 ♪ They spread their filth around this land ♪ 100 00:04:15,724 --> 00:04:18,034 ♪ Every pervert calls it home 101 00:04:18,137 --> 00:04:25,137 ♪ God hates the USA. 102 00:04:27,689 --> 00:04:28,931 [doorbell rings] 103 00:04:29,689 --> 00:04:30,689 - Hi. - Hi, there. 104 00:04:30,793 --> 00:04:31,827 - You must be Shirley. - Yes. 105 00:04:31,931 --> 00:04:32,827 - I'm Louis. - Hi, Louis. 106 00:04:32,931 --> 00:04:34,103 How do you do? 107 00:04:35,172 --> 00:04:37,206 So, these are your signs. 108 00:04:37,310 --> 00:04:40,310 You've got "God hates fags" here. 109 00:04:40,413 --> 00:04:41,827 - Uh-huh, and God hates you. 110 00:04:41,931 --> 00:04:43,310 Just don't think of fags 111 00:04:43,413 --> 00:04:46,137 as just those guys who are taking it up the tail pipe. 112 00:04:46,241 --> 00:04:47,137 Think of it as people 113 00:04:47,241 --> 00:04:50,896 who are involved in some perverted sex act, 114 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:52,862 and I am talking about anything other than 115 00:04:52,965 --> 00:04:57,068 one man, one woman in their marriage bed. 116 00:04:58,068 --> 00:04:59,206 - Hi, guys. - Hi. 117 00:04:59,310 --> 00:05:00,344 - Hey. - Hi. 118 00:05:00,448 --> 00:05:01,724 - This is Gabriel. 119 00:05:01,827 --> 00:05:03,103 - How do you do? 120 00:05:03,896 --> 00:05:04,827 Go put your stuff away. 121 00:05:04,931 --> 00:05:06,482 - And Grace. This is Grace. - How do you do? 122 00:05:06,586 --> 00:05:07,482 - Hi. - Come on, guys. 123 00:05:07,586 --> 00:05:08,862 Let's get out of here, let's bail. 124 00:05:11,551 --> 00:05:12,896 This is our corner. 125 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:14,344 Come on, little boys. 126 00:05:14,448 --> 00:05:16,482 Zack, you hop in in case he wants you to stay. 127 00:05:16,586 --> 00:05:17,931 - So, um... - Zack, call me. 128 00:05:18,034 --> 00:05:19,620 ..I'm gonna keep a little bit of a distance because I'm not 129 00:05:19,724 --> 00:05:20,931 - part of the picket. - That's OK. 130 00:05:21,034 --> 00:05:23,413 Louis: There were about 70 members in the church, 131 00:05:23,517 --> 00:05:26,034 almost all from one family. 132 00:05:26,137 --> 00:05:28,034 And they believed that by going on pickets 133 00:05:28,137 --> 00:05:29,758 and hurling abuse, 134 00:05:29,862 --> 00:05:33,034 they thought that was the most Christian thing they could do. 135 00:05:34,241 --> 00:05:38,655 Women: America is doomed! 136 00:05:38,758 --> 00:05:40,586 - This is shameful. 137 00:05:40,689 --> 00:05:43,034 Right down shameful. 138 00:05:43,137 --> 00:05:45,689 You got little kids like this... 139 00:05:45,793 --> 00:05:50,068 - You obviously raised your brat for the devil, 140 00:05:50,172 --> 00:05:52,896 your big bratness-brat for the devil. 141 00:05:54,172 --> 00:05:55,551 - What was he talking about? - He's talking about, 142 00:05:55,655 --> 00:05:57,793 [mockingly] "I don't agree with fags 143 00:05:57,896 --> 00:05:59,724 "but, you know, que sera sera." 144 00:05:59,827 --> 00:06:02,000 - Fuck you! - You think you can fix this? 145 00:06:02,103 --> 00:06:04,655 With that? You think you're gonna change God? 146 00:06:04,758 --> 00:06:07,793 You know why you're there, you fucking bitch? 147 00:06:07,896 --> 00:06:10,620 Because you are a rebellious brat, 148 00:06:10,724 --> 00:06:12,655 that's why! 149 00:06:17,137 --> 00:06:19,310 Louis: I began spending time with this family, 150 00:06:19,413 --> 00:06:22,413 trying to understand it. 151 00:06:22,517 --> 00:06:23,931 You know, they would go to normal schools 152 00:06:24,034 --> 00:06:25,206 and go to normal jobs, 153 00:06:25,310 --> 00:06:27,965 but they weren't allowed to fraternise or socialise. 154 00:06:28,068 --> 00:06:30,034 They weren't allowed to mix. 155 00:06:30,137 --> 00:06:33,620 They couldn't go on dates, have coffees un-chaperoned, 156 00:06:33,724 --> 00:06:35,344 and realistically, 157 00:06:35,448 --> 00:06:37,275 they knew that there was a high likelihood 158 00:06:37,379 --> 00:06:39,206 they'd never be married, never have kids, 159 00:06:39,310 --> 00:06:41,068 and I was curious about that. 160 00:06:42,517 --> 00:06:43,586 - Hi. - How are you doing? 161 00:06:43,689 --> 00:06:45,068 - Good. - Can we come in? 162 00:06:45,172 --> 00:06:46,413 Uh-huh. 163 00:06:46,517 --> 00:06:49,482 It's not sinful to get married, is it? 164 00:06:49,586 --> 00:06:52,413 And if you wanted to do that, then how do you do that? 165 00:06:52,517 --> 00:06:53,413 Well, first of all, 166 00:06:53,517 --> 00:06:54,965 I don't think that's ever gonna happen. 167 00:06:55,068 --> 00:06:56,620 - Why wouldn't that happen? - Are you kidding me? 168 00:06:56,724 --> 00:06:58,448 Are you kidding me? 169 00:06:58,551 --> 00:07:01,517 Because I'm Jael Phelps and I serve God, that's why. 170 00:07:02,551 --> 00:07:03,827 That's why. 171 00:07:03,931 --> 00:07:05,793 And I'm not gonna seek after it. 172 00:07:06,896 --> 00:07:08,103 I'm not gonna dwell on it. 173 00:07:09,551 --> 00:07:12,482 It's not my interest, it's not my focus. 174 00:07:13,586 --> 00:07:15,448 I'm a dumb young girl, 175 00:07:15,551 --> 00:07:17,827 but I am not that dumb and goofy 176 00:07:17,931 --> 00:07:20,586 to go... [scoffs] It's so silly. 177 00:07:20,689 --> 00:07:21,862 I'm not gonna talk... 178 00:07:21,965 --> 00:07:24,965 I don't want to talk about it anymore, OK? 179 00:07:25,793 --> 00:07:27,862 So, I don't wanna go there. 180 00:07:30,689 --> 00:07:34,310 Louis: As with any kind of ultra controlled sect... 181 00:07:34,413 --> 00:07:36,758 ..you know, I was curious about the mechanisms of control, 182 00:07:36,862 --> 00:07:39,206 and also the mechanisms of self control, 183 00:07:39,310 --> 00:07:44,137 and the way in which the indoctrination took place... 184 00:07:44,241 --> 00:07:47,137 ..how it was passed down to the younger generation. 185 00:07:49,517 --> 00:07:51,172 How old are you, Shirley? 186 00:07:51,275 --> 00:07:52,689 - Seven. - Seven. 187 00:07:52,793 --> 00:07:54,620 Do you know what the sign means? 188 00:07:55,586 --> 00:07:57,068 No. 189 00:07:57,172 --> 00:07:58,103 - No? 190 00:07:58,206 --> 00:08:01,379 Maybe she's just out here making up numbers, you know, 191 00:08:01,482 --> 00:08:03,103 because she doesn't really get it. 192 00:08:03,206 --> 00:08:05,310 Noah, do you know what fag troops are? 193 00:08:06,241 --> 00:08:08,379 - Yeah. - What? 194 00:08:08,482 --> 00:08:11,517 It's this nation of these fags. 195 00:08:11,620 --> 00:08:13,620 It's a nation of fags, 196 00:08:13,724 --> 00:08:16,241 that's what fag troops means. 197 00:08:16,344 --> 00:08:17,793 - It is a nation of fags, that's right. 198 00:08:17,896 --> 00:08:19,379 Wait, wait, wait. You're not gonna let him 199 00:08:19,482 --> 00:08:21,241 - get away with that, are you? - Oh! It's fag soldiers! 200 00:08:21,344 --> 00:08:23,103 - No, I'm not gonna... - Fag soldiers! 201 00:08:23,206 --> 00:08:24,517 - OK, fag soldiers. 202 00:08:24,620 --> 00:08:27,827 I am sort of glad that they don't understand it better. 203 00:08:27,931 --> 00:08:28,965 - Well, you understand... 204 00:08:29,068 --> 00:08:32,758 Noah, do you know what else you could be besides a fag 205 00:08:32,862 --> 00:08:36,034 to be in trouble with God and be included in that sign? 206 00:08:37,586 --> 00:08:38,620 Erm... 207 00:08:39,758 --> 00:08:41,758 Umm, soldiers and... 208 00:08:41,862 --> 00:08:42,931 - But what are you? 209 00:08:43,034 --> 00:08:45,862 If you're not a practising fag, what are you? 210 00:08:45,965 --> 00:08:48,241 What if you support fags, what does that make you? 211 00:08:49,275 --> 00:08:51,034 - You're a dyke. - [laughs] 212 00:08:52,034 --> 00:08:53,344 You could say you're... 213 00:08:53,448 --> 00:08:55,172 what you're really doing is grooming him 214 00:08:55,275 --> 00:08:56,689 into the weird behaviour 215 00:08:56,793 --> 00:08:58,310 that is a characteristic of your group. 216 00:08:58,413 --> 00:09:00,241 I mean, if you want to explain your moral outlook to him, 217 00:09:00,344 --> 00:09:01,620 you could do that in a classroom. 218 00:09:01,724 --> 00:09:05,793 - Are you calling our service to our God 'weird behaviour'? 219 00:09:05,896 --> 00:09:07,689 - Is that what you just did? - Yes. 220 00:09:07,793 --> 00:09:10,482 You don't get to call our service to God weird, 221 00:09:10,586 --> 00:09:12,827 and thereby make it so. 222 00:09:14,137 --> 00:09:16,000 Your statement doesn't make it right, 223 00:09:16,103 --> 00:09:17,965 doesn't make it a fact. 224 00:09:18,068 --> 00:09:19,551 - The world calls it weird. 225 00:09:19,655 --> 00:09:20,793 - I don't care what the... 226 00:09:20,896 --> 00:09:22,448 Well, yes, and the world hates us. 227 00:09:22,551 --> 00:09:23,586 Hello? 228 00:09:26,310 --> 00:09:28,551 Louis narrates: What struck me was that these were people 229 00:09:28,655 --> 00:09:32,137 who, if raised in other situations elsewhere, 230 00:09:32,241 --> 00:09:35,413 would have been normal, productive people, 231 00:09:35,517 --> 00:09:36,862 nice people, 232 00:09:36,965 --> 00:09:40,896 but they were carrying on this process of indoctrination 233 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:44,965 based on the distorted vision of this angry old man, 234 00:09:45,068 --> 00:09:46,655 Pastor Fred Phelps. 235 00:09:48,206 --> 00:09:49,310 - America's doomed. 236 00:09:50,551 --> 00:09:52,517 It's almost 18 months now 237 00:09:52,620 --> 00:09:54,724 and the siege has got people eating their babies... 238 00:09:57,344 --> 00:09:59,758 ..and their small children, and each other! 239 00:09:59,862 --> 00:10:02,344 You're gonna eat your babies! 240 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:05,965 And any preacher preaching it any other way 241 00:10:06,068 --> 00:10:08,931 is a lying, hell-bound false prophet. 242 00:10:12,517 --> 00:10:14,448 Louis Theroux, a demon-possessed... 243 00:10:15,482 --> 00:10:17,862 ..BBC documentary maker. 244 00:10:18,827 --> 00:10:21,689 Woe unto Louis Theroux. 245 00:10:21,793 --> 00:10:24,275 God's woe means he's going to hell. 246 00:10:25,586 --> 00:10:27,689 Louis: Gramps, the old patriarch, 247 00:10:27,793 --> 00:10:31,103 gave a sermon, which he released also as a press release. 248 00:10:31,206 --> 00:10:32,724 "Louis Theroux thinks 249 00:10:32,827 --> 00:10:35,344 "he has cutesy little endearing qualities 250 00:10:35,448 --> 00:10:37,344 "that will make him rich - 251 00:10:37,448 --> 00:10:42,448 "feigned humility, self effacing naiveté on camera, 252 00:10:42,551 --> 00:10:44,517 "innocent-sounding questions, 253 00:10:44,620 --> 00:10:50,241 "wide-eyed enthusiasm and pretended befuddlement. 254 00:10:50,344 --> 00:10:52,000 "All gimmickry. 255 00:10:52,103 --> 00:10:56,620 "A shrewd, satanic manipulator for sin." 256 00:10:57,620 --> 00:10:58,827 That's good stuff. 257 00:10:58,931 --> 00:11:01,241 I mean, he kind of nails it. 258 00:11:01,344 --> 00:11:02,241 [chuckles] 259 00:11:02,344 --> 00:11:04,586 I didn't think he was paying that much attention to me. 260 00:11:08,034 --> 00:11:10,413 I think what you see in the Westboro story 261 00:11:10,517 --> 00:11:14,724 is the extremes of what a family does to itself. 262 00:11:14,827 --> 00:11:17,206 Pastor: ..England and America, the rest of this evil world... 263 00:11:17,310 --> 00:11:21,034 Louis: The extraordinary pain that it inflicts on its members, 264 00:11:21,137 --> 00:11:22,689 but which the members put up with 265 00:11:22,793 --> 00:11:24,793 because of the love that they experience. 266 00:11:24,896 --> 00:11:26,137 Pastor: ..no longer keeps America safe... 267 00:11:26,241 --> 00:11:27,448 - In the case of Westboro, 268 00:11:27,551 --> 00:11:30,379 the family is more or less torturing itself... 269 00:11:31,620 --> 00:11:33,931 ..and then, there comes a breaking point. 270 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:37,241 Even when I was there, 271 00:11:37,344 --> 00:11:39,172 people talked about people who'd left, 272 00:11:39,275 --> 00:11:41,310 family members who had gone their own way. 273 00:11:43,068 --> 00:11:44,068 And then, after I left, 274 00:11:44,172 --> 00:11:45,586 Megan Phelps-Roper, 275 00:11:45,689 --> 00:11:48,862 Shirley's daughter and right-hand person, left. 276 00:11:48,965 --> 00:11:50,655 99.9% of Americans... 277 00:11:50,758 --> 00:11:54,896 - She also made it her mission to speak out... 278 00:11:55,896 --> 00:11:57,275 ..from a loving place 279 00:11:57,379 --> 00:11:59,413 about what happens inside the church, 280 00:11:59,517 --> 00:12:00,965 in the hope of actually 281 00:12:01,068 --> 00:12:03,827 getting more people to leave. 282 00:12:03,931 --> 00:12:06,827 - The end of this spiral of rage and blame, 283 00:12:06,931 --> 00:12:08,448 begins with one person 284 00:12:08,551 --> 00:12:13,379 who refuses to indulge these destructive, seductive impulses. 285 00:12:13,482 --> 00:12:16,379 We just have to decide that it's going to start with us. 286 00:12:18,586 --> 00:12:19,620 Louis narrates: When she left, 287 00:12:19,724 --> 00:12:21,551 Megan got in touch with me. 288 00:12:22,379 --> 00:12:23,655 Hello. 289 00:12:23,758 --> 00:12:25,068 Louis narrates: We stayed in touch... 290 00:12:25,172 --> 00:12:26,241 - Hey. Louis narrates: ..emailing 291 00:12:26,344 --> 00:12:29,379 back and forth intermittently and we became friends. 292 00:12:29,482 --> 00:12:32,068 How are you doing, anyway? 293 00:12:32,172 --> 00:12:34,068 - I'm good. I'm finding the bright side, 294 00:12:34,172 --> 00:12:36,103 - and it's nice. - That's great. 295 00:12:36,206 --> 00:12:37,551 Louis narrates: She's been completely cut off 296 00:12:37,655 --> 00:12:39,862 from her family for years now, 297 00:12:39,965 --> 00:12:42,586 and is not allowed under any circumstances 298 00:12:42,689 --> 00:12:44,206 to visit her Mum. 299 00:12:44,310 --> 00:12:47,206 It changes over time, you know, 300 00:12:47,310 --> 00:12:50,655 the way that the pain feels. 301 00:12:51,344 --> 00:12:52,827 But it doesn't... 302 00:12:52,931 --> 00:12:55,448 It changes because I'm changing, you know, 303 00:12:55,551 --> 00:12:56,965 I'm getting older. 304 00:12:57,068 --> 00:12:58,241 I now am a mom, 305 00:12:58,344 --> 00:13:01,586 and so I have these memories of my mom 306 00:13:01,689 --> 00:13:03,379 coming up all the time now, 307 00:13:03,482 --> 00:13:05,586 and sometimes it'll make me happy, 308 00:13:05,689 --> 00:13:07,275 and sometimes it'll make me cry, 309 00:13:07,379 --> 00:13:09,965 but, like, it's...it's... 310 00:13:10,068 --> 00:13:12,310 She's my mom. It never goes away. 311 00:13:12,413 --> 00:13:14,448 It's not the past. 312 00:13:14,551 --> 00:13:17,551 It's now, and that's incredibly painful, 313 00:13:17,655 --> 00:13:19,137 no matter how long it's been. 314 00:13:25,758 --> 00:13:28,068 Louis: Families come under pressure. 315 00:13:28,172 --> 00:13:30,482 It's often to do with the intolerable demands 316 00:13:30,586 --> 00:13:32,655 made by family members. 317 00:13:32,758 --> 00:13:37,448 Sometimes, as with Westboro, due to indoctrination... 318 00:13:37,551 --> 00:13:39,862 ..but also, in fact, more often, 319 00:13:39,965 --> 00:13:43,103 because of illness, because of disease, 320 00:13:43,206 --> 00:13:45,068 because of mental decline. 321 00:13:48,827 --> 00:13:53,931 Around 2011, I went through a kind of crisis. 322 00:13:54,034 --> 00:13:56,862 I felt like I'd run out of stories I was interested in. 323 00:13:56,965 --> 00:13:59,000 I don't know, I just felt I was in danger 324 00:13:59,103 --> 00:14:02,068 of repeating myself, of doing re-treads, 325 00:14:02,172 --> 00:14:06,137 And the only story that we had...on the slate, 326 00:14:06,241 --> 00:14:07,586 that I was excited about, 327 00:14:07,689 --> 00:14:10,620 that felt new and different and interesting to me... 328 00:14:10,724 --> 00:14:14,068 ..was about people with dementia. 329 00:14:20,517 --> 00:14:21,793 Phoenix, Arizona, 330 00:14:21,896 --> 00:14:24,482 is a population centre of the elderly 331 00:14:24,586 --> 00:14:27,068 and, therefore, of dementia. 332 00:14:27,172 --> 00:14:29,379 And also a centre for pioneering techniques 333 00:14:29,482 --> 00:14:32,724 in coping with dementia and its symptoms... 334 00:14:32,827 --> 00:14:34,793 ..so we decided to base ourselves there, 335 00:14:34,896 --> 00:14:37,517 at a residential home called Beatitudes. 336 00:14:41,034 --> 00:14:43,517 One of the men there was called Gary Gilliam. 337 00:14:43,620 --> 00:14:46,655 He had vascular dementia brought on by a heart attack. 338 00:14:46,758 --> 00:14:48,344 This is a hard place to get out. 339 00:14:48,448 --> 00:14:50,965 Louis narrates: Big personality, very humorous, 340 00:14:51,068 --> 00:14:53,620 beloved by all the other residents. 341 00:14:53,724 --> 00:14:56,206 - I'd like to know where the in hell...? 342 00:14:56,310 --> 00:14:59,241 - Hmm. - You OK? 343 00:15:00,034 --> 00:15:01,172 Well, I'm worried. 344 00:15:01,275 --> 00:15:03,793 I'm just gonna walk up here and see if I can't... 345 00:15:04,758 --> 00:15:06,448 What are you worried about? 346 00:15:06,551 --> 00:15:07,482 What am I worried about? 347 00:15:07,586 --> 00:15:08,896 There's nothing to worry about. 348 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,137 Well, guys get out and get lost. 349 00:15:14,137 --> 00:15:16,482 Louis: What sort of things do you enjoy doing here? 350 00:15:16,586 --> 00:15:17,931 How do you keep busy? 351 00:15:18,034 --> 00:15:20,827 - This is my workplace. - Doing? 352 00:15:20,931 --> 00:15:23,586 Dentistry, or working on something dental, 353 00:15:23,689 --> 00:15:25,620 or doing, you know, whatever. 354 00:15:25,724 --> 00:15:28,137 Whatever they want to put me to, I don't care. 355 00:15:28,241 --> 00:15:30,448 It's not really a medical building 356 00:15:30,551 --> 00:15:31,517 or something like that, 357 00:15:31,620 --> 00:15:33,448 but here we are. 358 00:15:33,551 --> 00:15:34,620 I ain't never leaving. 359 00:15:34,724 --> 00:15:36,724 it's kind of strange that way. 360 00:15:38,758 --> 00:15:41,068 Does he know where he is? 361 00:15:41,172 --> 00:15:42,758 - He does know. He's, um... 362 00:15:42,862 --> 00:15:44,000 - He seems to think he's involved 363 00:15:44,103 --> 00:15:45,620 in a dental practice here. 364 00:15:45,724 --> 00:15:47,931 I know, yeah, and one of the ways we redirect him 365 00:15:48,034 --> 00:15:50,551 is to have him examine our teeth. 366 00:15:50,655 --> 00:15:53,689 - When you say... redirect means what? 367 00:15:53,793 --> 00:15:56,000 - If he's on a mission to go outside, 368 00:15:56,103 --> 00:15:58,793 or if he's just having one of those moments, 369 00:15:58,896 --> 00:16:01,586 that he's irritable, you can easily redirect him by saying, 370 00:16:01,689 --> 00:16:04,068 "Hey, Dr Gary, I have a problem with my tooth. 371 00:16:04,172 --> 00:16:06,758 "Can you look inside my mouth?" And he will. 372 00:16:06,862 --> 00:16:08,482 - You want to take a walk with me? 373 00:16:08,586 --> 00:16:10,103 - Sure, I'll walk with you. 374 00:16:10,206 --> 00:16:13,275 See, now, they change these things around 375 00:16:13,379 --> 00:16:14,965 every other week. 376 00:16:15,068 --> 00:16:16,655 "Push until alarm sounds. 377 00:16:16,758 --> 00:16:18,931 "Door can be opened in 15 seconds." 378 00:16:19,034 --> 00:16:21,172 That's a siren going off for 15 seconds 379 00:16:21,275 --> 00:16:23,344 through this building. You can't use that. 380 00:16:23,448 --> 00:16:25,310 - No. - That's ridiculous. 381 00:16:25,413 --> 00:16:26,620 No. 382 00:16:26,724 --> 00:16:29,655 So, you know, what can I do? I'm screwed. 383 00:16:29,758 --> 00:16:31,655 Someone told me you used to be a dentist? 384 00:16:31,758 --> 00:16:33,172 - I am a dentist. - Is that true? 385 00:16:33,275 --> 00:16:35,413 I guess once a dentist, always a dentist, you know? 386 00:16:35,517 --> 00:16:36,793 It's like being born... 387 00:16:38,517 --> 00:16:39,827 ..an Indian or something, you know, 388 00:16:39,931 --> 00:16:41,241 you're always gonna be an Indian. 389 00:16:41,344 --> 00:16:43,655 Would you take a quick look at my teeth? 390 00:16:43,758 --> 00:16:44,793 - Yes, sir. I would. 391 00:16:44,896 --> 00:16:46,275 - They're not very clean, though. 392 00:16:46,379 --> 00:16:47,689 Oh, I know. 393 00:16:47,793 --> 00:16:49,482 - You're a Brit, aren't you? - Yeah. 394 00:16:49,586 --> 00:16:51,379 Well, you guys don't clean your teeth like we do. 395 00:16:51,482 --> 00:16:52,517 I know. 396 00:16:54,172 --> 00:16:55,172 Bite down, please. 397 00:16:56,172 --> 00:16:57,793 You got good occlusion. 398 00:16:59,275 --> 00:17:01,413 You know, you're in cross bite back there. 399 00:17:01,517 --> 00:17:02,758 - Uh-oh. - Yeah. 400 00:17:02,862 --> 00:17:04,275 I wouldn't do anything about it 401 00:17:04,379 --> 00:17:06,103 'cause it's not gonna hurt you now. 402 00:17:15,241 --> 00:17:17,448 - How well do you feel you know Dawn? 403 00:17:17,551 --> 00:17:19,103 - Know who? - Dawn. 404 00:17:19,206 --> 00:17:22,068 Oh, do I know you? 405 00:17:22,172 --> 00:17:23,862 Well, I haven't known you very much, 406 00:17:23,965 --> 00:17:26,275 because if I would, I'd remember you forever. 407 00:17:26,379 --> 00:17:28,862 - Aww. - 'Cause you're a pretty lady. 408 00:17:28,965 --> 00:17:30,655 You remember the pretty ladies, huh? 409 00:17:30,758 --> 00:17:32,137 - I try to. - Right. 410 00:17:32,241 --> 00:17:33,896 I think I'm losing my grasp. 411 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,793 He tells me that every day. It's good for my ego. 412 00:17:36,896 --> 00:17:38,448 [chuckles] 413 00:17:39,482 --> 00:17:40,586 And are you married? 414 00:17:40,689 --> 00:17:42,206 - No, sir. - No. 415 00:17:42,310 --> 00:17:45,241 Nobody would have me. I had a...you know... 416 00:17:45,344 --> 00:17:47,137 I had a sign out in the yard for a long time. 417 00:17:47,241 --> 00:17:48,448 It got to be embarrassing. 418 00:17:48,551 --> 00:17:50,379 - What about Carla? - Carla? 419 00:17:50,482 --> 00:17:52,172 That's the meanest little booger in the world 420 00:17:52,275 --> 00:17:54,068 - but I just love her. - Who's Carla? 421 00:17:54,172 --> 00:17:56,413 She's a little gal about this tall, isn't she? 422 00:17:56,517 --> 00:17:59,827 - And she came to work for me. - Right, exactly. 423 00:17:59,931 --> 00:18:01,827 And then she ended up running my office. 424 00:18:01,931 --> 00:18:03,724 - Mm-hm. - Did an excellent job of it. 425 00:18:03,827 --> 00:18:05,241 - She did. - She's really a nice person. 426 00:18:05,344 --> 00:18:06,413 - She is. - I think a lot of her. 427 00:18:06,517 --> 00:18:07,724 - Yes. 428 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,068 Louis narrates: Carla was still married to him, 429 00:18:16,172 --> 00:18:19,344 but he no longer recognised her as his wife. 430 00:18:23,586 --> 00:18:27,206 - There's Gary with his dogs. He just loves his dogs. 431 00:18:27,310 --> 00:18:29,379 - What was the Gary of old like? 432 00:18:29,482 --> 00:18:31,793 - Definitely an outdoorsman. 433 00:18:31,896 --> 00:18:35,620 Highly intelligent, very interested in everything. 434 00:18:35,724 --> 00:18:37,724 And remembered things verbatim. 435 00:18:37,827 --> 00:18:39,689 - Did he? Good memory. 436 00:18:39,793 --> 00:18:42,896 Has he gone back to a particular point in time? 437 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,034 - I think he's more in his 20s, early 30s. 438 00:18:46,137 --> 00:18:47,551 I'm not even his spouse, 439 00:18:47,655 --> 00:18:48,689 because in his mind, 440 00:18:48,793 --> 00:18:50,448 he would have never gotten married. 441 00:18:50,551 --> 00:18:53,034 In terms of your relationship with Gary now, 442 00:18:53,137 --> 00:18:55,000 how fulfilling is that for you? 443 00:18:55,103 --> 00:18:58,517 When he's really sweet and just kind of caring, 444 00:18:58,620 --> 00:19:01,034 then, oh, yeah, I savour that, 445 00:19:01,137 --> 00:19:03,689 but it's very little, yeah. 446 00:19:08,827 --> 00:19:10,724 Hey, Gary. 447 00:19:10,827 --> 00:19:12,379 - I see you're getting photographed. 448 00:19:12,482 --> 00:19:14,034 - Yes. 449 00:19:14,137 --> 00:19:16,275 That means you'll be in jail in a month. 450 00:19:16,379 --> 00:19:17,655 - Yes. - OK. 451 00:19:17,758 --> 00:19:19,379 Yes, so... 452 00:19:19,482 --> 00:19:20,724 - Hi, Gary. - Hello. 453 00:19:20,827 --> 00:19:22,379 - You remember me? - Yes, I do. 454 00:19:22,482 --> 00:19:25,413 Louis narrates: Carla used to take Gary out for lunch, 455 00:19:25,517 --> 00:19:29,068 but it was more complicated than you might think. 456 00:19:29,172 --> 00:19:30,758 - Here are his two ladies, right there. 457 00:19:30,862 --> 00:19:33,931 Hi, Pat. Hi, Betty. How are you doing? 458 00:19:34,034 --> 00:19:36,344 - Oh, I'm doing just fine. 459 00:19:36,448 --> 00:19:37,896 - Good. 460 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,448 - I just need to ask you something quickly, Carla. 461 00:19:41,551 --> 00:19:46,344 You said these are two special friends of Gary's. 462 00:19:46,448 --> 00:19:49,482 Yes. Betty is very possessive, 463 00:19:49,586 --> 00:19:52,137 but Pat is more normal. 464 00:19:52,241 --> 00:19:53,448 Then don't bring them both. 465 00:19:53,551 --> 00:19:57,275 No, absolutely not. No, we're going with Pat. 466 00:19:57,379 --> 00:19:59,206 I don't understand why he's... 467 00:19:59,310 --> 00:20:01,034 You know, would it not be more normal 468 00:20:01,137 --> 00:20:02,793 for him to put his arm around you? 469 00:20:03,862 --> 00:20:06,275 Err, no, he's never been... 470 00:20:06,379 --> 00:20:08,793 physically very... I'm just his buddy. 471 00:20:11,206 --> 00:20:13,724 There's another lady called Betty. 472 00:20:14,965 --> 00:20:16,689 And did you say that there's more intimacy 473 00:20:16,793 --> 00:20:17,689 in that relationship? 474 00:20:17,793 --> 00:20:19,655 Well, she, I guess, 475 00:20:19,758 --> 00:20:21,310 has always taken her clothes off, 476 00:20:21,413 --> 00:20:22,931 and I've seen her a couple times, 477 00:20:23,034 --> 00:20:24,724 um and, um... 478 00:20:24,827 --> 00:20:26,896 I don't know what happens after that. 479 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:28,068 - Taking her clothes off? 480 00:20:28,172 --> 00:20:29,586 In his room, yeah. 481 00:20:29,689 --> 00:20:32,310 - And getting into bed with him? - My guess is yeah. 482 00:20:32,413 --> 00:20:34,758 The idea of Gary with another woman, 483 00:20:34,862 --> 00:20:37,689 performing sexually, wouldn't trouble you the least? 484 00:20:37,793 --> 00:20:40,482 No, I just realise it's the disease, 485 00:20:40,586 --> 00:20:41,827 and it's the way it is, 486 00:20:41,931 --> 00:20:43,793 and it's unconditional love. 487 00:20:43,896 --> 00:20:47,241 It's nothing to be bad for me, 488 00:20:47,344 --> 00:20:50,517 you know, it's not... Um, no. 489 00:20:52,310 --> 00:20:54,310 - Carla and Gary are in a relationship 490 00:20:54,413 --> 00:20:58,034 in which he's seeing other women at the care home... 491 00:20:59,241 --> 00:21:00,482 ..'cause he doesn't think he's married, 492 00:21:00,586 --> 00:21:03,275 he thinks he's a bachelor. 493 00:21:03,379 --> 00:21:06,275 And, you know, with Carla, she doesn't stop loving Gary. 494 00:21:09,275 --> 00:21:11,172 She just has to deal with this new Gary. 495 00:21:12,448 --> 00:21:13,413 - Bye, Gary. 496 00:21:13,517 --> 00:21:15,896 - See you, kid. - OK, love you. 497 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,482 - Nice doing business with you. - Ditto. 498 00:21:18,586 --> 00:21:20,137 - It's business? 499 00:21:20,241 --> 00:21:22,724 When she comes into town. 500 00:21:22,827 --> 00:21:27,448 So it's a depiction of love, but love under extreme stress. 501 00:21:27,551 --> 00:21:29,344 Are you gonna take me with you? 502 00:21:29,448 --> 00:21:31,068 - No. - Where you going? 503 00:21:31,172 --> 00:21:33,000 - You're still here, remember? You got a year's lease. 504 00:21:33,103 --> 00:21:34,724 So I have to stay here? 505 00:21:34,827 --> 00:21:35,896 - This is where you live, 506 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,068 and I live in South Chandler... 507 00:21:39,034 --> 00:21:40,689 ..in my own house. 508 00:21:42,758 --> 00:21:44,000 Jesus. 509 00:21:46,034 --> 00:21:47,655 - So, where are we going? - Me and you... 510 00:21:47,758 --> 00:21:48,862 - You're staying with April. 511 00:21:48,965 --> 00:21:50,068 - You're staying with me. 512 00:21:50,172 --> 00:21:51,275 We have the pleasure of that. 513 00:21:51,379 --> 00:21:53,034 - Let's go. - Really? 514 00:21:53,137 --> 00:21:56,310 Yeah, come on, you got the pleasure of being with me. 515 00:21:56,413 --> 00:21:57,310 What are you? 516 00:21:57,413 --> 00:21:59,000 - What do I call you? - Huh? 517 00:22:02,413 --> 00:22:03,586 Louis narrates: Afterwards, I heard 518 00:22:03,689 --> 00:22:06,413 that Gary moved to a different facility. 519 00:22:06,517 --> 00:22:08,241 He declined further. 520 00:22:10,586 --> 00:22:12,586 This is February 2016. 521 00:22:12,689 --> 00:22:16,620 It's a rather touching portrait of Gary and Carla, 522 00:22:16,724 --> 00:22:20,620 close to the end, done by a Phoenix radio station. 523 00:22:20,724 --> 00:22:22,206 Carla [on recording]: I am Carla, 524 00:22:22,310 --> 00:22:25,551 and I am married to Dr Gary Gilliam. 525 00:22:25,655 --> 00:22:27,344 I knew Hospice of the Valley 526 00:22:27,448 --> 00:22:30,724 was gonna be part of the end of our journey... 527 00:22:30,827 --> 00:22:32,965 ..and the day that I get the phone call 528 00:22:33,068 --> 00:22:35,517 that he has gone somewhere else... 529 00:22:35,620 --> 00:22:38,310 - [Gary mutters indistinctly] - [Carla chuckles] 530 00:22:38,413 --> 00:22:40,379 Carla: I have no regrets. 531 00:22:42,655 --> 00:22:43,827 Louis: Gary died... 532 00:22:45,689 --> 00:22:48,655 ..not long after this, in 2016. 533 00:22:49,862 --> 00:22:51,655 Carla: I love you. 534 00:22:55,620 --> 00:22:58,689 - Making the dementia film was huge for me, 535 00:22:58,793 --> 00:23:02,000 because it gave me the confidence 536 00:23:02,103 --> 00:23:03,862 to tell other stories 537 00:23:03,965 --> 00:23:05,896 in a similar vein, 538 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:07,517 so in the years afterwards, 539 00:23:07,620 --> 00:23:10,965 I took on documentaries about families 540 00:23:11,068 --> 00:23:14,034 enduring extraordinarily stressful 541 00:23:14,137 --> 00:23:15,655 and emotional events... 542 00:23:15,758 --> 00:23:17,965 - Langston. - It's your grandmother. 543 00:23:18,068 --> 00:23:19,931 Come on, turn your head over 544 00:23:20,034 --> 00:23:21,344 and give me a smile. 545 00:23:21,448 --> 00:23:24,724 Hey, come on over here. 546 00:23:24,827 --> 00:23:26,896 Louis narrates: ..going through the most profound, 547 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,000 life-changing situations. 548 00:23:29,103 --> 00:23:31,103 - What connection is there 549 00:23:31,206 --> 00:23:35,137 between a birth mum and a child? 550 00:23:35,241 --> 00:23:38,482 - It seems to be a connection that's... 551 00:23:39,551 --> 00:23:41,344 ..just there. 552 00:23:41,448 --> 00:23:43,586 I know that Isaiah feels that. 553 00:23:43,689 --> 00:23:46,482 The connection seems to be in the heart. 554 00:23:47,482 --> 00:23:49,206 - Hi. - How are you? 555 00:23:49,310 --> 00:23:50,551 - Good. 556 00:24:04,931 --> 00:24:07,517 Louis: Families involve interdependence. 557 00:24:07,620 --> 00:24:08,965 We support one another. 558 00:24:09,068 --> 00:24:12,758 Very often, we are entrusted with making decisions 559 00:24:12,862 --> 00:24:14,379 especially when other family members 560 00:24:14,482 --> 00:24:16,655 are vulnerable in some way, 561 00:24:16,758 --> 00:24:19,793 either because they're old, or because they're young, 562 00:24:19,896 --> 00:24:23,448 their minds are still immature, still developing. 563 00:24:24,862 --> 00:24:27,896 We make decisions for children all the time. 564 00:24:28,931 --> 00:24:30,172 In important respects, 565 00:24:30,275 --> 00:24:32,586 we consider that they are incapable 566 00:24:32,689 --> 00:24:34,965 of deciding what's best for themselves. 567 00:24:38,758 --> 00:24:40,137 The end of 2014, 568 00:24:40,241 --> 00:24:41,482 I was living in America 569 00:24:41,586 --> 00:24:43,379 and we were looking for new ideas, 570 00:24:43,482 --> 00:24:45,241 and over the years, 571 00:24:45,344 --> 00:24:48,482 I'd seen documentaries about trans adults, 572 00:24:48,586 --> 00:24:50,896 and people transitioning in adulthood, 573 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:52,413 and then someone I worked with 574 00:24:52,517 --> 00:24:55,862 suggested a documentary on trans kids. 575 00:24:57,413 --> 00:25:00,344 And I thought, with children, 576 00:25:00,448 --> 00:25:01,620 the stakes were higher, 577 00:25:01,724 --> 00:25:04,137 because they and their parents 578 00:25:04,241 --> 00:25:05,413 are making decisions 579 00:25:05,517 --> 00:25:07,241 that will affect their whole lives. 580 00:25:16,586 --> 00:25:18,827 Smile. 581 00:25:18,931 --> 00:25:20,896 Louis narrates: The main family that I spent time with, 582 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,172 the kid was called Camille... 583 00:25:23,275 --> 00:25:25,034 - Careful. Stay out of the road, Camille. 584 00:25:25,137 --> 00:25:26,724 Louis narrates: ..and Camille's parents were Casey 585 00:25:26,827 --> 00:25:27,896 and Eduardo. 586 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:29,827 Camille had only just turned six. 587 00:25:29,931 --> 00:25:33,482 Obviously quite young, but clearly intelligent, 588 00:25:33,586 --> 00:25:37,413 full of life, full of humour and energy. 589 00:25:37,517 --> 00:25:40,275 Camille: Oh, my god, that was close! 590 00:25:40,379 --> 00:25:42,137 Louis narrates: So we accompanied Camille 591 00:25:42,241 --> 00:25:43,931 on her first visit 592 00:25:44,034 --> 00:25:47,241 to a gender specialist called Diane Ehrensaft. 593 00:25:50,344 --> 00:25:52,758 So, Camille, the first thing I'm gonna ask you 594 00:25:52,862 --> 00:25:55,379 is just to draw a picture of a person. 595 00:25:56,482 --> 00:25:58,931 That's me. I can draw myself on here. 596 00:26:06,586 --> 00:26:07,655 That's me. 597 00:26:07,758 --> 00:26:10,758 - So, when you were born a long time ago, 598 00:26:10,862 --> 00:26:12,310 your mommy and daddy thought they had 599 00:26:12,413 --> 00:26:14,551 a little boy named Sebastian. 600 00:26:14,655 --> 00:26:16,896 Right now, how would you describe yourself? 601 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,379 - A girl. Not a boy, I'm a girl. 602 00:26:20,241 --> 00:26:22,344 - You're a boy and a girl, 603 00:26:22,448 --> 00:26:24,689 but you'd like to be a girl and not a boy. 604 00:26:25,586 --> 00:26:27,137 Not a boy and a girl anymore. 605 00:26:27,241 --> 00:26:29,689 - Not a boy and a girl anymore? - Not transgender. 606 00:26:29,793 --> 00:26:31,448 - And not transgender. 607 00:26:31,551 --> 00:26:34,689 But so, what shall we call it? 608 00:26:34,793 --> 00:26:37,379 Um, girl. 609 00:26:37,482 --> 00:26:38,793 Louis narrates: The doctors and clinicians 610 00:26:38,896 --> 00:26:40,862 I met in San Francisco 611 00:26:40,965 --> 00:26:42,931 were supporters of the idea 612 00:26:43,034 --> 00:26:46,655 of children being able to make the choice to transition. 613 00:26:46,758 --> 00:26:48,275 - Bye, Diane. - Goodbye. 614 00:26:48,379 --> 00:26:49,413 Louis narrates: What they told me was, 615 00:26:49,517 --> 00:26:50,862 "If you transition as a kid, 616 00:26:50,965 --> 00:26:53,310 "and you become a trans girl," let's say, 617 00:26:53,413 --> 00:26:55,758 "It was better for your long-term mental health." 618 00:26:57,586 --> 00:26:58,793 [horn honks] 619 00:27:02,310 --> 00:27:03,379 - Hello. - Hello. 620 00:27:03,482 --> 00:27:05,448 - Can I come in? - Come on in. 621 00:27:05,551 --> 00:27:07,379 - A change of outfit. Look at that. 622 00:27:09,068 --> 00:27:10,793 What's striking, looking around, 623 00:27:10,896 --> 00:27:14,448 is all the photos of Camille as Sebastian... 624 00:27:14,551 --> 00:27:16,827 - Yeah. - ..looking very boyish. 625 00:27:16,931 --> 00:27:18,275 - Yeah. - Yeah. 626 00:27:18,379 --> 00:27:20,103 - To me, that one's a tough one, 627 00:27:20,206 --> 00:27:24,517 because that was the last time we captured Sebastian. 628 00:27:24,620 --> 00:27:27,344 In honest opinion, that was the last time 629 00:27:27,448 --> 00:27:30,551 we saw that, you know, spikey little hair, 630 00:27:30,655 --> 00:27:32,172 and the cute little clothes. 631 00:27:32,275 --> 00:27:34,000 I think it was really, for me, 632 00:27:34,103 --> 00:27:36,000 kind of saying goodbye. 633 00:27:36,103 --> 00:27:39,586 And I don't...and it's not a bad thing in my mind, 634 00:27:39,689 --> 00:27:42,448 it's kind of like, "Yeah, that was the phase. We're done." 635 00:27:43,896 --> 00:27:46,793 Louis: What is going on? Camille, what are you doing? 636 00:27:46,896 --> 00:27:48,034 Putting lipstick on. 637 00:27:49,965 --> 00:27:52,827 - How...for how long have you been using Camille 638 00:27:52,931 --> 00:27:56,655 and the 'she' pronoun at home? 639 00:27:56,758 --> 00:27:57,896 - A month. - A month. 640 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,103 - Just a month, so this is all really new for you. 641 00:28:00,206 --> 00:28:01,517 This is very, very new. 642 00:28:01,620 --> 00:28:03,827 We get confused quite often. 643 00:28:03,931 --> 00:28:05,448 - How are you feeling about it? 644 00:28:07,620 --> 00:28:09,793 I'm fine. 645 00:28:09,896 --> 00:28:13,413 It's just hard getting used to going from one to the other. 646 00:28:13,517 --> 00:28:15,827 It's difficult, it's really difficult. 647 00:28:15,931 --> 00:28:17,482 It's not an easy thing to do. 648 00:28:17,586 --> 00:28:19,241 - Do you find it confusing ever? 649 00:28:19,344 --> 00:28:21,379 - Yeah, yeah. 650 00:28:21,482 --> 00:28:24,310 I think that's kind of par for the course sometimes, 651 00:28:24,413 --> 00:28:26,862 and I think it's that way with kids a lot, 652 00:28:26,965 --> 00:28:30,827 but definitely with discovering who you are as a person. 653 00:28:30,931 --> 00:28:32,896 - Trying to figure out what is solid 654 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:34,931 and consistent and dependable? 655 00:28:35,034 --> 00:28:37,689 And cater to that and support that. 656 00:28:37,793 --> 00:28:39,586 It is difficult. 657 00:28:39,689 --> 00:28:41,482 I'm not gonna lie, it's not easy. 658 00:28:41,586 --> 00:28:42,862 This is not a very easy thing. 659 00:28:42,965 --> 00:28:46,551 We may have had not so bad of a time at this, 660 00:28:46,655 --> 00:28:49,655 but it's not an easy road to travel. You... 661 00:28:52,137 --> 00:28:53,758 It's gut wrenching... 662 00:28:54,896 --> 00:28:55,931 ..honestly. 663 00:29:07,793 --> 00:29:09,137 Louis narrates: The hub of the action 664 00:29:09,241 --> 00:29:10,137 for the programme 665 00:29:10,241 --> 00:29:15,172 was a gender clinic at UC San Francisco. 666 00:29:16,448 --> 00:29:17,551 Charlie. 667 00:29:17,655 --> 00:29:21,448 So, do you prefer boy pronouns like 'he', 668 00:29:21,551 --> 00:29:23,068 or girl pronouns like 'she'? 669 00:29:23,172 --> 00:29:24,862 I just want to do it the way you want it. 670 00:29:24,965 --> 00:29:26,068 On the face of it, you have what seems 671 00:29:26,172 --> 00:29:30,206 a relatively straightforward...process - 672 00:29:30,310 --> 00:29:32,137 the decision to support the child 673 00:29:32,241 --> 00:29:35,517 in how he or she views him or herself, 674 00:29:35,620 --> 00:29:37,689 in terms of, you know, their gender... 675 00:29:39,620 --> 00:29:41,896 ..but there are also medical interventions 676 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:43,034 that go along with that. 677 00:29:44,413 --> 00:29:46,344 Louis: What's he doing? 678 00:29:46,448 --> 00:29:50,344 A month ago, he had another implant put in. 679 00:29:50,448 --> 00:29:52,000 What do you mean by an implant? 680 00:29:52,103 --> 00:29:54,517 Shay's on a puberty blocker. 681 00:29:54,620 --> 00:29:56,586 - Hi, Shay. I'm Louis. 682 00:29:56,689 --> 00:29:57,620 As you understand it, 683 00:29:57,724 --> 00:30:00,448 what is that little thing in there doing? 684 00:30:00,551 --> 00:30:02,206 - Making it so I don't go through puberty. 685 00:30:02,310 --> 00:30:04,413 - And why don't you want to go through puberty? 686 00:30:04,517 --> 00:30:06,655 - Because I don't want to be a girl. 687 00:30:06,758 --> 00:30:08,241 - You don't want to? - No. 688 00:30:08,344 --> 00:30:10,413 As puberty looms on the horizon, 689 00:30:10,517 --> 00:30:12,413 the child is given... 690 00:30:12,517 --> 00:30:15,137 assuming he or she wants to keep on that path, 691 00:30:15,241 --> 00:30:16,655 given puberty blockers, 692 00:30:16,758 --> 00:30:20,137 and then at a certain point, cross gender hormones, 693 00:30:20,241 --> 00:30:24,379 all of which are quite serious biological interventions. 694 00:30:24,482 --> 00:30:26,551 Any way you look at it, it's a big decision, 695 00:30:26,655 --> 00:30:30,965 on a question that will have lifelong medical consequences 696 00:30:31,068 --> 00:30:33,000 and psychological consequences. 697 00:30:37,758 --> 00:30:38,931 The heart of the documentary 698 00:30:39,034 --> 00:30:42,000 was Camille and Camille's family... 699 00:30:42,103 --> 00:30:45,103 ..just following the process of the transition, 700 00:30:45,206 --> 00:30:47,068 and I was there 701 00:30:47,172 --> 00:30:51,413 when Camille went to school in a dress for the first time. 702 00:30:53,724 --> 00:30:56,448 Louis! [parents chuckle] 703 00:30:59,689 --> 00:31:02,034 - Hello, there. How's it going? 704 00:31:04,724 --> 00:31:06,724 Look at you! What a nice dress. 705 00:31:11,517 --> 00:31:13,655 Was it any different 706 00:31:13,758 --> 00:31:15,724 wearing a dress than it is normally? 707 00:31:19,206 --> 00:31:22,241 You don't think Camille is still exploring... 708 00:31:23,965 --> 00:31:25,172 ..trying different things? 709 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:27,344 I don't know. 710 00:31:27,448 --> 00:31:29,620 Honestly, it's been such a... 711 00:31:31,241 --> 00:31:33,310 ..quick journey in the last one year 712 00:31:33,413 --> 00:31:34,482 that we've been going through this 713 00:31:34,586 --> 00:31:36,551 that it doesn't feel like... 714 00:31:38,655 --> 00:31:41,310 ..there's a lot of the exploration left. 715 00:31:41,413 --> 00:31:42,379 Now it's... 716 00:31:43,344 --> 00:31:45,241 ..big leaps and bounds forward. 717 00:31:46,448 --> 00:31:47,931 - After the program went out... 718 00:31:49,137 --> 00:31:50,448 ..I had the impression that 719 00:31:50,551 --> 00:31:54,137 we were kind of surfing the wave of quite a big cultural moment. 720 00:31:56,137 --> 00:32:00,172 Literally, within a month or so around our transmission... 721 00:32:01,172 --> 00:32:03,137 ..in 2015... 722 00:32:03,241 --> 00:32:06,896 ..Caitlyn Jenner came out as trans. 723 00:32:08,103 --> 00:32:11,586 Actors like Laverne Cox. 724 00:32:11,689 --> 00:32:13,862 But then, increasingly, you heard dissenting voices. 725 00:32:13,965 --> 00:32:15,275 Now, in recent years, 726 00:32:15,379 --> 00:32:18,310 there's been a huge increase in the number of children 727 00:32:18,413 --> 00:32:20,310 reporting gender dysphoria. 728 00:32:20,413 --> 00:32:21,586 Louis narrates: Early transitioning 729 00:32:21,689 --> 00:32:22,793 became a topic of debate 730 00:32:22,896 --> 00:32:24,965 on the most mainstream TV shows. 731 00:32:25,068 --> 00:32:27,620 There are now people who are in their mid-20s, 732 00:32:27,724 --> 00:32:30,379 and there's no coincidence about that age, either, 733 00:32:30,482 --> 00:32:31,862 but in their mid-20s, 734 00:32:31,965 --> 00:32:33,896 who are looking back and saying, 735 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:35,793 "I really regret what I've done." 736 00:32:35,896 --> 00:32:37,344 You know, it's a little over five years 737 00:32:37,448 --> 00:32:40,517 since I saw Camille and the family. 738 00:32:41,586 --> 00:32:42,620 But we've stayed in touch, 739 00:32:42,724 --> 00:32:45,103 and Camille's now 11 years old. 740 00:32:47,034 --> 00:32:50,241 In the end, I try and focus on what I can see, 741 00:32:50,344 --> 00:32:52,655 which is Camille's story. 742 00:32:53,724 --> 00:32:55,482 Loving, supportive parents, 743 00:32:55,586 --> 00:32:57,206 trying to do the best thing for Camille. 744 00:32:57,310 --> 00:32:58,206 Hello. 745 00:32:58,310 --> 00:32:59,620 Hey! How you doing? 746 00:32:59,724 --> 00:33:01,551 Good. How are you? 747 00:33:01,655 --> 00:33:02,896 Louis narrates: And they're moving along, 748 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,034 full-steam ahead, with her transition. 749 00:33:06,137 --> 00:33:09,896 I mean, that's...these are big decisions that she's made, 750 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:11,517 and she's made them informed decisions. 751 00:33:11,620 --> 00:33:14,931 No decision is made by any of us. 752 00:33:15,034 --> 00:33:16,482 It's all Camille-led. 753 00:33:16,586 --> 00:33:18,827 [laughs] She's the president of this team, 754 00:33:18,931 --> 00:33:21,172 and then now we're hitting puberty. 755 00:33:21,275 --> 00:33:25,620 We're gonna be getting her puberty blocker installed. 756 00:33:25,724 --> 00:33:28,793 "Installed" - it sounds like a car! [laughs] 757 00:33:28,896 --> 00:33:31,655 - Does that feel like a big step? 758 00:33:31,758 --> 00:33:32,827 Does that feel like a choice 759 00:33:32,931 --> 00:33:35,034 that you need to think about and interrogate? 760 00:33:35,137 --> 00:33:36,034 Or does that just feel like, 761 00:33:36,137 --> 00:33:38,551 "OK, that's what we're gonna do"? 762 00:33:38,655 --> 00:33:40,068 Yeah, it just feels like... 763 00:33:40,172 --> 00:33:41,896 Yeah, it's just gonna happen that... 764 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:43,413 I really don't care because this is... 765 00:33:43,517 --> 00:33:45,827 I know this is what I want. 766 00:33:45,931 --> 00:33:49,344 - That's an excellent summation of who she is as a person. 767 00:33:49,448 --> 00:33:51,000 She really is the kid 768 00:33:51,103 --> 00:33:53,724 who knows exactly what she wants, 769 00:33:53,827 --> 00:33:55,827 every second of every day, 770 00:33:55,931 --> 00:33:58,206 and moves forward with it, 771 00:33:58,310 --> 00:34:00,241 and never questions herself. 772 00:34:02,137 --> 00:34:03,482 Louis narrates: To me, what's most important 773 00:34:03,586 --> 00:34:04,689 is they seem to be doing really well, 774 00:34:04,793 --> 00:34:07,137 - and that Camille seems happy. - Bye! 775 00:34:07,241 --> 00:34:10,172 She's growing up, she's super smart, 776 00:34:10,275 --> 00:34:13,551 comes across as mature and well-adjusted, 777 00:34:13,655 --> 00:34:15,758 so that's what I see. 778 00:34:19,896 --> 00:34:21,103 Come on! 779 00:34:37,551 --> 00:34:40,862 - 2015, I was living in London with the family, 780 00:34:40,965 --> 00:34:43,103 and we'd had our third son, 781 00:34:43,206 --> 00:34:46,793 and I couldn't really travel for work. 782 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:49,827 For the previous 20 years, 783 00:34:49,931 --> 00:34:52,517 I'd been making programmes in America and elsewhere, 784 00:34:52,620 --> 00:34:53,862 but not in the UK. 785 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:56,137 I think for me, 786 00:34:56,241 --> 00:34:58,517 there'd always been a kind of safety 787 00:34:58,620 --> 00:35:03,137 in being among people who were very different to me... 788 00:35:03,241 --> 00:35:05,862 ..and now, here I was, faced with doing stories 789 00:35:05,965 --> 00:35:08,827 with no culture difference to hide behind. 790 00:35:08,931 --> 00:35:10,379 I'm gonna count to five... 791 00:35:11,275 --> 00:35:12,896 One of the ideas I looked at 792 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,931 was to do with brain injury. 793 00:35:19,172 --> 00:35:22,517 A lot of the film centred on a family. 794 00:35:22,620 --> 00:35:24,793 Rob and Amanda were the parents' names. 795 00:35:24,896 --> 00:35:26,172 The children, the two boys, 796 00:35:26,275 --> 00:35:28,724 were a similar age to my two oldest boys, 797 00:35:28,827 --> 00:35:30,931 and Amanda had fallen off a horse. 798 00:35:32,310 --> 00:35:33,275 - Hi, Rob. - Good morning. 799 00:35:33,379 --> 00:35:34,689 - How you doing? Alright? - Louis. 800 00:35:34,793 --> 00:35:36,241 Louis narrates: She'd spent 18 months 801 00:35:36,344 --> 00:35:38,034 in a brain injury unit. 802 00:35:38,137 --> 00:35:39,862 When we arrived the first time, 803 00:35:39,965 --> 00:35:43,068 she's only literally a couple of days 804 00:35:43,172 --> 00:35:45,827 out of supported accommodation 805 00:35:45,931 --> 00:35:50,275 and they'd put a huge effort into adapting their home 806 00:35:50,379 --> 00:35:52,620 so that she could live there, in an annexe. 807 00:35:54,379 --> 00:35:56,310 So, it's a story that's both extreme 808 00:35:56,413 --> 00:35:58,034 and very close to home. 809 00:35:59,862 --> 00:36:02,275 - So, this is your new house? 810 00:36:02,379 --> 00:36:04,793 - Yes, this is all... Yeah, the main bit we have. 811 00:36:04,896 --> 00:36:07,275 - And you've been here for how long? 812 00:36:07,379 --> 00:36:08,862 - Two weeks this weekend. - Two weeks. 813 00:36:13,137 --> 00:36:15,551 Pictures! 814 00:36:15,655 --> 00:36:18,137 Is it nice having Mummy back living with you? 815 00:36:18,241 --> 00:36:19,310 - Yeah. 816 00:36:19,413 --> 00:36:21,206 - Quite a big change, isn't it? - Yeah. 817 00:36:21,310 --> 00:36:22,655 Kiss. 818 00:36:22,758 --> 00:36:24,206 - Mwah! - Properly. 819 00:36:24,310 --> 00:36:25,206 - Nah. 820 00:36:25,310 --> 00:36:27,103 - Yes. - Oh. 821 00:36:27,206 --> 00:36:28,206 Mwah. 822 00:36:28,310 --> 00:36:30,724 - That's too quick and rubbish. - Never mind. 823 00:36:30,827 --> 00:36:32,172 - Where's Daddy gone? - I mind. 824 00:36:32,275 --> 00:36:33,482 - Where's Daddy? 825 00:36:35,172 --> 00:36:36,862 - Where is Amanda? 826 00:36:36,965 --> 00:36:38,724 So, this is Amanda's bedroom, 827 00:36:38,827 --> 00:36:40,034 Amanda's kitchen. 828 00:36:40,137 --> 00:36:41,482 Whether she uses it or not, I don't know. 829 00:36:41,586 --> 00:36:42,965 She hasn't yet, so it's... 830 00:36:43,068 --> 00:36:44,206 There is a lock on there. 831 00:36:44,310 --> 00:36:46,241 That was one of Amanda's stipulations, 832 00:36:46,344 --> 00:36:47,482 that she wanted the door locked. 833 00:36:47,586 --> 00:36:50,413 - She wanted a lock on the door? - Yes, yeah. 834 00:36:51,137 --> 00:36:52,517 What was that about? 835 00:36:52,620 --> 00:36:55,310 - Erm, perhaps a bit of privacy, I think. 836 00:36:55,413 --> 00:36:57,689 You know, she's been in an institution 837 00:36:57,793 --> 00:36:59,137 for such a long time, 838 00:36:59,241 --> 00:37:00,655 I think for her to come home 839 00:37:00,758 --> 00:37:02,344 and have just a bit of independence, 840 00:37:02,448 --> 00:37:04,068 to be honest. 841 00:37:04,172 --> 00:37:05,965 - That's Amanda, is it? - Mm-hm. 842 00:37:06,068 --> 00:37:08,655 - Yeah. That's Amanda there. - Is that Amanda? 843 00:37:08,758 --> 00:37:09,965 - Yeah. - What was that for? 844 00:37:10,068 --> 00:37:11,068 Amanda: ABBA night. 845 00:37:11,172 --> 00:37:13,241 - Oh, yeah. - Now, where are you, Rob? 846 00:37:13,344 --> 00:37:17,275 - Err, there, there. - So that's you. 847 00:37:17,379 --> 00:37:20,000 So, on Wednesday, you came back from the unit. 848 00:37:20,103 --> 00:37:21,689 - Yes. - And, as I understand it, 849 00:37:21,793 --> 00:37:24,827 to begin with, you were saying that you'd like to come out 850 00:37:24,931 --> 00:37:26,896 - to your own house... - Yes. 851 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,724 ..and not even be in the family home. 852 00:37:29,827 --> 00:37:32,172 - Yes. Mm-hm. - Is that right? Why was that? 853 00:37:32,275 --> 00:37:33,758 - Erm, I don't know. 854 00:37:33,862 --> 00:37:35,689 I just felt I would be better on my own, 855 00:37:35,793 --> 00:37:38,724 me and my dogs and my cats. 856 00:37:38,827 --> 00:37:40,586 - Amanda having her own house isn't doable. 857 00:37:40,689 --> 00:37:42,551 She would need a 24/7 carer. 858 00:37:42,655 --> 00:37:44,758 It's cheaper for Amanda to go into a care home. 859 00:37:46,034 --> 00:37:48,965 That's a 38-year-old going into a care home. 860 00:37:49,758 --> 00:37:51,448 No way. 861 00:37:51,551 --> 00:37:54,137 - That's just... - I wouldn't have minded. 862 00:37:55,724 --> 00:37:57,862 No, sadly. 863 00:37:57,965 --> 00:37:59,862 As far as you are aware, 864 00:37:59,965 --> 00:38:01,620 you feel you're the same person. 865 00:38:01,724 --> 00:38:02,655 - Yes. - And you've got 866 00:38:02,758 --> 00:38:04,965 some physical things that you need to work on. 867 00:38:05,068 --> 00:38:06,931 - Yes. - But there haven't been, 868 00:38:07,034 --> 00:38:09,862 sort of in your own sense of things, 869 00:38:09,965 --> 00:38:14,862 personality changes, or even brain damage, if you like. 870 00:38:14,965 --> 00:38:17,862 - Mmm, that's how I feel. - Is that how you feel about it? 871 00:38:17,965 --> 00:38:20,620 - Rob, is that your perspective, as well? 872 00:38:20,724 --> 00:38:21,931 No. 873 00:38:22,034 --> 00:38:24,689 No, I mean Amanda's still Amanda, of course, 874 00:38:24,793 --> 00:38:27,206 and there's still lots of Amanda... 875 00:38:27,310 --> 00:38:29,275 I say the 'old' Amanda, it's not the right word to use, 876 00:38:29,379 --> 00:38:32,172 but there's definite changes... 877 00:38:32,275 --> 00:38:33,241 ..you know, without a doubt. 878 00:38:33,344 --> 00:38:35,344 Especially on the emotional side of it - 879 00:38:35,448 --> 00:38:37,724 like, I find that quite hard. 880 00:38:37,827 --> 00:38:40,517 Your emotions are quite flat, 881 00:38:40,620 --> 00:38:43,172 and I do notice that things annoy you more. 882 00:38:43,275 --> 00:38:45,758 I mean, you've always said that you've lost your squishy side. 883 00:38:45,862 --> 00:38:46,965 Mm-hm. 884 00:38:47,068 --> 00:38:49,379 - At the risk of asking an intrusive question, 885 00:38:49,482 --> 00:38:50,793 so you've been together 22 years? 886 00:38:50,896 --> 00:38:52,862 Rob: Mm-hm. - That's a long relationship. 887 00:38:52,965 --> 00:38:54,551 Amanda: Yes. - Were you happy together? 888 00:38:54,655 --> 00:38:56,275 - Yes. - Very, yeah. 889 00:38:56,379 --> 00:38:57,517 Good team. 890 00:38:58,379 --> 00:39:00,413 Best buddies. It was good. 891 00:39:01,551 --> 00:39:03,379 Yeah, it was good, and it still is good, 892 00:39:03,482 --> 00:39:05,965 just different, for the time being. 893 00:39:06,068 --> 00:39:08,068 [inhales deeply] Yeah. 894 00:39:10,310 --> 00:39:13,172 - Stop tapping. - I know, drumming constantly. 895 00:39:13,275 --> 00:39:14,344 Stop it. 896 00:39:17,310 --> 00:39:18,482 Louis narrates: It became clear 897 00:39:18,586 --> 00:39:20,689 that there were strains there. 898 00:39:20,793 --> 00:39:24,172 Strains that, in some way, were completely recognisable 899 00:39:24,275 --> 00:39:26,413 from any young family. 900 00:39:26,517 --> 00:39:28,310 - Oh, a little chip. 901 00:39:28,413 --> 00:39:29,931 Louis narrates: Kids not behaving, 902 00:39:30,034 --> 00:39:32,206 Mum and Dad being tetchy with each other 903 00:39:32,310 --> 00:39:34,172 because they're tired, or whatever... 904 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:35,965 - Nice. 905 00:39:36,068 --> 00:39:38,758 - ..but with that sort of multiplied 906 00:39:38,862 --> 00:39:41,448 by the brain condition that Amanda had. 907 00:39:45,310 --> 00:39:46,551 A few weeks later, 908 00:39:46,655 --> 00:39:50,344 I went back for a second visit to see how it was going. 909 00:39:50,448 --> 00:39:52,344 - All OK? - Yeah, good. 910 00:39:52,448 --> 00:39:55,517 - Been difficult, hasn't it? - Yeah. 911 00:39:55,620 --> 00:39:57,379 - Difficult in what way? 912 00:39:57,482 --> 00:40:01,000 - Um... Just we'd sort of had the idea 913 00:40:01,103 --> 00:40:03,103 that Amanda was gonna be in the annexe, 914 00:40:03,206 --> 00:40:06,689 - that was her sort of... - I'm dead. I'm dead. 915 00:40:06,793 --> 00:40:08,758 ..prerequisite for coming home, 916 00:40:08,862 --> 00:40:11,448 was that she would stay in the annexe, 917 00:40:11,551 --> 00:40:13,034 but she hasn't, so it's made it a little bit difficult. 918 00:40:13,137 --> 00:40:17,689 Amanda's...not brilliant with the boys, 919 00:40:17,793 --> 00:40:21,896 just because she's got a bit of a short fuse. 920 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:23,689 And as she says, she's lost her 'squidgy bit', 921 00:40:23,793 --> 00:40:26,586 so she'll go from being super, super nice 922 00:40:26,689 --> 00:40:28,551 to... [imitates explosion] ..straight in, 923 00:40:28,655 --> 00:40:32,241 all singing, all dancing, lots of shouting. 924 00:40:32,344 --> 00:40:35,137 You said you've found it a bit hard, Mummy being back. 925 00:40:35,241 --> 00:40:36,689 Why was that? 926 00:40:36,793 --> 00:40:39,413 - Because she's been shouting at me non-stop. 927 00:40:39,517 --> 00:40:41,137 Ooh, a blue tit! Sorry. 928 00:40:41,241 --> 00:40:44,620 Err, yeah, she's been shouting at me non-stop. 929 00:40:44,724 --> 00:40:46,172 - Yeah, well, I could see that would be hard. 930 00:40:47,344 --> 00:40:49,137 - Yeah. - Because of the brain injury. 931 00:40:49,241 --> 00:40:50,517 Yeah. 932 00:40:51,448 --> 00:40:54,310 - Oscar, are you hungry? - Mmm? 933 00:40:54,413 --> 00:40:57,620 - I'm tuning it! - No, thank you. I'm not hungry. 934 00:40:57,724 --> 00:41:00,448 [indistinct chatter from TV] 935 00:41:00,551 --> 00:41:03,655 How do you feel now about being back? 936 00:41:03,758 --> 00:41:05,344 - You feel it's the right move? - It's nice. 937 00:41:05,448 --> 00:41:07,862 I get to see my kids every day... 938 00:41:07,965 --> 00:41:10,000 ..even if they don't want to see me. 939 00:41:10,931 --> 00:41:11,862 - Hey! 940 00:41:11,965 --> 00:41:14,172 - You wouldn't cuddle me last night before bed. 941 00:41:14,275 --> 00:41:15,344 [babbles] 942 00:41:17,551 --> 00:41:19,241 - That made me sad. 943 00:41:19,344 --> 00:41:20,827 - I know, but... 944 00:41:20,931 --> 00:41:22,034 "I know, but" what? 945 00:41:22,137 --> 00:41:24,517 - I was already in bed snuggled up 946 00:41:24,620 --> 00:41:27,275 - really, really, really tight. - I only wanted a cuddle. 947 00:41:27,379 --> 00:41:30,344 Do you care that you made me sad? 948 00:41:30,448 --> 00:41:34,517 [groans] It's not that, it's... [groans] 949 00:41:35,965 --> 00:41:38,137 He wouldn't give me a cuddle night-night. 950 00:41:38,241 --> 00:41:39,310 - No, it's not that, it's... 951 00:41:41,137 --> 00:41:42,413 - Do you still love me? 952 00:41:42,517 --> 00:41:45,586 Yes! Why wouldn't I? 953 00:41:45,689 --> 00:41:47,724 - Because you don't behave like you do. 954 00:41:51,793 --> 00:41:54,379 Louis: You get the feeling that aspects of family life 955 00:41:54,482 --> 00:41:56,896 really grated on Amanda's nerves, 956 00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,689 and, you know, one of the things that a brain injury can do 957 00:41:59,793 --> 00:42:01,482 is sort of rub away some of that... 958 00:42:01,586 --> 00:42:05,310 patience, tolerance, sense of forbearing. 959 00:42:05,413 --> 00:42:07,241 Rob: You ready to attempt this Thai green curry? 960 00:42:07,344 --> 00:42:10,275 - Is it worth attempting? - I hope so. 961 00:42:11,931 --> 00:42:15,310 Louis narrates: Amanda wasn't totally happy. 962 00:42:15,413 --> 00:42:18,344 Rob seemed, to me, close to breaking point. 963 00:42:20,724 --> 00:42:22,896 Amanda: You laugh at me. 964 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:24,896 I wasn't laughing at you, I was just laughing. 965 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:26,103 - Mmm. 966 00:42:27,724 --> 00:42:28,965 Mm-hm. 967 00:42:30,448 --> 00:42:32,344 - Don't believe you. - No. 968 00:42:32,448 --> 00:42:34,103 - It feels like 969 00:42:34,206 --> 00:42:38,000 you're a little bit angry with Rob. 970 00:42:40,413 --> 00:42:42,896 He makes me out to be a bad person. 971 00:42:44,137 --> 00:42:46,689 You believe I'm a bad person. 972 00:42:47,931 --> 00:42:48,931 Mmm. 973 00:42:49,034 --> 00:42:50,896 Louis: Do you really believe that about Rob, 974 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,137 that he thinks you're actually a bad person? 975 00:42:53,241 --> 00:42:54,275 - Yeah, I do. 976 00:42:55,793 --> 00:42:58,931 Take that grin off your face, smoky pants. 977 00:42:59,724 --> 00:43:00,965 [Amanda chuckles softly] 978 00:43:01,068 --> 00:43:02,758 Yeah, it's a grin counteracting a... 979 00:43:02,862 --> 00:43:04,137 - You don't really think that about Rob, 980 00:43:04,241 --> 00:43:05,137 - do you? - I do. 981 00:43:05,241 --> 00:43:08,448 He doesn't like the way I am now. 982 00:43:08,551 --> 00:43:11,034 But like I said, the person he married 983 00:43:11,137 --> 00:43:13,000 died the day I fell off that horse. 984 00:43:13,103 --> 00:43:15,137 I am what's left... 985 00:43:15,241 --> 00:43:17,586 ..and I don't think I'm enough for you anymore. 986 00:43:17,689 --> 00:43:20,413 You don't feel loved by Rob? 987 00:43:20,517 --> 00:43:22,206 - No, not particularly. 988 00:43:22,310 --> 00:43:24,172 I feel like I'm a burden. 989 00:43:25,413 --> 00:43:27,655 - Rob was saying that he would like more 990 00:43:27,758 --> 00:43:30,344 of the sort of cuddling, 991 00:43:30,448 --> 00:43:32,517 - "I love you"... - Mm-hm. 992 00:43:33,931 --> 00:43:35,965 - ..stuff. - He's just a perv. 993 00:43:37,241 --> 00:43:39,344 - OK. [all laugh] 994 00:43:39,448 --> 00:43:42,000 Just go and get a shag, I don't care. 995 00:43:44,172 --> 00:43:45,310 What's up, Oscar? 996 00:43:46,310 --> 00:43:47,482 - What do you need? 997 00:43:47,586 --> 00:43:48,965 Louis: What I took away from the experience 998 00:43:49,068 --> 00:43:50,034 of filming with them 999 00:43:50,137 --> 00:43:52,448 was that life can be very unfair. 1000 00:43:52,551 --> 00:43:55,379 That a lightening strike of misfortune 1001 00:43:55,482 --> 00:43:57,586 can derail your life. 1002 00:43:57,689 --> 00:43:59,034 And as much as they adapted, 1003 00:43:59,137 --> 00:44:01,275 as much as they did their best with the new situation, 1004 00:44:01,379 --> 00:44:02,551 there's no question in my mind 1005 00:44:02,655 --> 00:44:05,275 that the horse fall and the brain injury 1006 00:44:05,379 --> 00:44:06,482 was horrendous, 1007 00:44:06,586 --> 00:44:09,344 and they had to get on with life. 1008 00:44:09,448 --> 00:44:13,241 So these profound, life-changing events... 1009 00:44:14,931 --> 00:44:17,103 ..you know, you tend to go, kind of stumble through life 1010 00:44:17,206 --> 00:44:19,551 thinking, "Don't sweat the small stuff - 1011 00:44:19,655 --> 00:44:20,896 "brackets - it's all small stuff." 1012 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,275 Well, some of it isn't small stuff. 1013 00:44:26,931 --> 00:44:30,172 Amanda's moved out of the family home. 1014 00:44:30,275 --> 00:44:33,965 She's got her own place now, with round-the-clock support. 1015 00:44:34,068 --> 00:44:36,103 Rob is checking up on her most days. 1016 00:44:36,206 --> 00:44:38,137 They speak every day 1017 00:44:38,241 --> 00:44:41,620 and he'll take the boys over every weekend to see her. 1018 00:44:44,034 --> 00:44:46,896 - Hello. - Hello. [laughs] 1019 00:44:47,724 --> 00:44:49,931 - You're looking quite red. 1020 00:44:50,034 --> 00:44:52,275 Is it my screen or are you actually that red? 1021 00:44:52,379 --> 00:44:55,793 - I don't know. Perhaps I've got a disease. 1022 00:44:55,896 --> 00:44:57,620 You... [laughs] 1023 00:44:57,724 --> 00:44:59,137 - Am I red? Rob: Yeah, you're red. 1024 00:44:59,241 --> 00:45:01,172 I'm red, apparently. 1025 00:45:01,275 --> 00:45:02,448 Rob's there with you. 1026 00:45:02,551 --> 00:45:03,551 - Hiya! - Yes. 1027 00:45:03,655 --> 00:45:05,931 - I'm hiding, I'm here. Oh, you can't see me. 1028 00:45:06,034 --> 00:45:07,000 - I can see you now. 1029 00:45:07,103 --> 00:45:08,896 You're looking quite red, as well. 1030 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,448 Thank you for doing this. 1031 00:45:11,551 --> 00:45:13,137 Your life was changed... 1032 00:45:14,275 --> 00:45:15,482 ..beyond recognition, 1033 00:45:15,586 --> 00:45:19,724 and when you look back, how do you make sense of it? 1034 00:45:20,689 --> 00:45:22,586 - There is no sense to be made. 1035 00:45:22,689 --> 00:45:27,137 It just is what it is, and I was unlucky. 1036 00:45:27,241 --> 00:45:30,655 And they gave me a 30% chance of survival 1037 00:45:30,758 --> 00:45:32,517 and I proved them wrong, 1038 00:45:32,620 --> 00:45:33,862 'cause I'm still here. 1039 00:45:33,965 --> 00:45:36,517 How's your relationship with Rob? 1040 00:45:36,620 --> 00:45:38,068 He's still my best friend. 1041 00:45:39,344 --> 00:45:41,862 And he's now got a new girlfriend. 1042 00:45:42,689 --> 00:45:44,137 So, yeah, 1043 00:45:44,241 --> 00:45:48,034 he's moved on with his life. I'm happy being single. 1044 00:45:48,137 --> 00:45:49,379 - What I observed was, 1045 00:45:49,482 --> 00:45:52,793 you do quite a bit of...teasing of Rob. 1046 00:45:54,068 --> 00:45:57,448 I was 17 when... I was still at school 1047 00:45:57,551 --> 00:45:58,793 when we met, 1048 00:45:58,896 --> 00:46:01,655 and now I am 40-flipping-3 1049 00:46:01,758 --> 00:46:04,517 and I still love him. 1050 00:46:04,620 --> 00:46:07,034 And he still makes me laugh and he's still a bugger. 1051 00:46:07,137 --> 00:46:09,931 [chuckles] But he's mine. 1052 00:46:10,034 --> 00:46:12,344 I wonder if it would make sense to talk to the both of you 1053 00:46:12,448 --> 00:46:14,068 - together for a minute. - OK. 1054 00:46:14,172 --> 00:46:15,310 Would you be alright to do that? 1055 00:46:15,413 --> 00:46:16,724 - Yeah. 1056 00:46:16,827 --> 00:46:18,862 - There he is. [chuckles] 1057 00:46:18,965 --> 00:46:22,551 He's hiding behind the door. Come in! 1058 00:46:22,655 --> 00:46:23,931 If I can just 1059 00:46:24,034 --> 00:46:27,275 take an outsider's perspective for a moment... 1060 00:46:27,379 --> 00:46:29,551 ..what I am hearing is you're happy in your house, 1061 00:46:29,655 --> 00:46:34,896 but you feel Rob's moved on in a way that's really painful. 1062 00:46:35,931 --> 00:46:38,172 Yes he has, but are you happy? 1063 00:46:38,275 --> 00:46:39,344 - Yeah. 1064 00:46:39,448 --> 00:46:41,344 - Do you love her? - Yeah. 1065 00:46:41,448 --> 00:46:42,586 - You do? - Yeah. 1066 00:46:42,689 --> 00:46:44,689 Ah, that's the first time he's said that. 1067 00:46:46,413 --> 00:46:48,482 Yeah, but I don't really talk about it with you 1068 00:46:48,586 --> 00:46:49,689 because it'll probably hurt. 1069 00:46:49,793 --> 00:46:52,586 Well, it does anyway. It's been three years. 1070 00:46:52,689 --> 00:46:53,689 Rob: Mmm. 1071 00:46:53,793 --> 00:46:55,965 If Rob ever decided, like, 1072 00:46:56,068 --> 00:46:59,137 in order to make his new relationship work, 1073 00:46:59,241 --> 00:47:01,413 that he needed to establish more distance... 1074 00:47:02,379 --> 00:47:04,448 ..from you, Amanda, 1075 00:47:04,551 --> 00:47:07,034 would you be able to let go, do you think? 1076 00:47:07,137 --> 00:47:09,068 I already have. 1077 00:47:09,172 --> 00:47:11,827 It doesn't make me happy, but I have. 1078 00:47:11,931 --> 00:47:14,793 He's got his own life, I just disapprove. 1079 00:47:17,172 --> 00:47:18,793 So I've already let go. 1080 00:47:20,827 --> 00:47:21,827 There you go. 1081 00:47:21,931 --> 00:47:24,172 But you call him quite a lot, I think. 1082 00:47:25,448 --> 00:47:27,000 Erm, every day. 1083 00:47:28,172 --> 00:47:29,724 - Maybe more than once? 1084 00:47:29,827 --> 00:47:31,724 - Only if he doesn't answer. 1085 00:47:35,482 --> 00:47:36,758 If Rob said, "OK, 1086 00:47:36,862 --> 00:47:39,379 "in order to move on with my life, 1087 00:47:39,482 --> 00:47:41,206 "I need you to stop calling"...? 1088 00:47:42,689 --> 00:47:45,310 I'd be sad, but I would stop. 1089 00:47:46,793 --> 00:47:49,068 That's it, I'm not calling you ever again. 1090 00:47:49,172 --> 00:47:50,172 OK, that's fine, that's fine. 1091 00:47:50,275 --> 00:47:51,896 OK, done. 1092 00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:54,103 - That's never gonna happen. - There we go. 1093 00:47:54,206 --> 00:47:56,310 I'm glad I could sort that out for you. 1094 00:47:56,413 --> 00:47:57,413 - Yeah. 1095 00:47:57,517 --> 00:47:59,172 [both laugh] 1096 00:48:01,448 --> 00:48:02,758 [baby coos] 1097 00:48:04,275 --> 00:48:05,827 Please, don't. 1098 00:48:06,793 --> 00:48:07,931 Rob: Mummy! 1099 00:48:08,724 --> 00:48:10,551 Mind this arm, that's it, 1100 00:48:10,655 --> 00:48:12,793 and you can sit on my leg. That's better. 1101 00:48:12,896 --> 00:48:14,689 Rob: There's the two brothers. 1102 00:48:17,896 --> 00:48:19,413 Amanda: Oscar's having a busy day. 1103 00:48:20,931 --> 00:48:24,344 Oh, cool dude. Sunnies, shorts and wellies. 1104 00:48:25,137 --> 00:48:26,517 Shorts and wellies! 1105 00:48:27,689 --> 00:48:28,793 Amanda: Fab-o. 1106 00:48:33,827 --> 00:48:35,655 - How did I die? 1107 00:48:35,758 --> 00:48:37,724 That's a great place to stop. 1108 00:48:37,827 --> 00:48:39,275 - No, Dad. - Yeah, it's time to go up. 1109 00:48:39,379 --> 00:48:40,655 - No, Dad! 1110 00:48:43,931 --> 00:48:46,344 - You can read some more of these books, if you like. 1111 00:48:47,586 --> 00:48:49,034 - Read them? - Yeah. 1112 00:48:50,655 --> 00:48:53,482 - I saw how much all of them 1113 00:48:53,586 --> 00:48:56,551 were willing to put themselves through 1114 00:48:56,655 --> 00:48:58,000 to make it work. 1115 00:48:59,379 --> 00:49:01,000 I think, in the end... 1116 00:49:03,620 --> 00:49:06,103 ..for that family, that family made the decision 1117 00:49:06,206 --> 00:49:07,655 that they needed to make. 1118 00:49:08,482 --> 00:49:10,586 Amanda: Oliver. - Yeah? 1119 00:49:10,689 --> 00:49:12,206 Amanda: What are you doing? 1120 00:49:12,310 --> 00:49:14,000 Rob: Oli, Oli, Oli! 1121 00:49:15,275 --> 00:49:17,620 Louis narrates: Love is hard... 1122 00:49:17,724 --> 00:49:19,965 ..and subject to all different kinds of strains 1123 00:49:20,068 --> 00:49:22,586 to do with people changing. 1124 00:49:24,758 --> 00:49:26,206 Or people succumbing 1125 00:49:26,310 --> 00:49:29,103 to serious diseases like dementia... 1126 00:49:29,206 --> 00:49:31,103 - You guys want some floss or something? 1127 00:49:31,206 --> 00:49:33,517 - I've got my own, thanks. - OK. 1128 00:49:35,482 --> 00:49:37,344 Louis narrates: ..or their behaviour just being impossible. 1129 00:49:38,551 --> 00:49:39,827 - You haven't seen Solvi in a few weeks. 1130 00:49:39,931 --> 00:49:41,448 - Hi, Solvi! 1131 00:49:41,551 --> 00:49:42,482 Do you remember...? 1132 00:49:42,586 --> 00:49:44,103 Louis narrates: And it's in the nature of love 1133 00:49:44,206 --> 00:49:46,896 that because of how powerful it is, 1134 00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:50,413 that it brings risk with it... 1135 00:49:51,413 --> 00:49:53,172 ..the risk that it will end. 1136 00:49:53,275 --> 00:49:54,827 I'm just smiling at you. 1137 00:49:54,931 --> 00:49:56,655 - Why? - I don't know. 1138 00:49:58,482 --> 00:50:00,344 Louis narrates: But you don't stop loving 1139 00:50:00,448 --> 00:50:01,724 because of the risk. 1140 00:50:01,827 --> 00:50:05,379 In fact, the risk is what makes love so precious... 1141 00:50:05,482 --> 00:50:07,379 "They were playing Chip's new game, 1142 00:50:07,482 --> 00:50:09,724 "secret of the sands." 1143 00:50:09,827 --> 00:50:11,241 Love you. [kisses] 1144 00:50:11,344 --> 00:50:13,793 - Goodnight! - Goodnight. 1145 00:50:13,896 --> 00:50:14,862 Louis narrates: ..which makes it 1146 00:50:14,965 --> 00:50:16,068 all the more important 1147 00:50:16,172 --> 00:50:19,379 that you value every minute that you have it. 1148 00:50:19,482 --> 00:50:22,482 Captioned by Ai-Media ai-media.tv