1 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:13,280 What is a fair punishment 2 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:15,160 for murder? 3 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:24,280 Thirty years ago, I killed a man. 4 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:26,560 And for that crime, 5 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:28,720 I was sentenced to death. 6 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:14,960 If I would've been executed, I would've deserved it. 7 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,560 But God, I like to believe, had a bigger plan and a purpose for me. 8 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:26,120 "You should've died. You're not worthy." 9 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:28,880 But God is my judge and my jury. 10 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:33,160 I just ask that people give me a chance. 11 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:35,280 Open your heart some time. 12 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:38,440 Don't be so pre-judgmental. 13 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:40,880 I'm a walking miracle, 14 00:01:40,960 --> 00:01:43,480 whether you wanna accept it, or whether you don't. 15 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:45,360 You can't take that from me. 16 00:03:00,640 --> 00:03:03,080 Okay, I'll sit up a bit more on the chair. 17 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:04,520 Is that good? 18 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:10,920 Dale, can you see me? 19 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:12,840 Yes. 20 00:03:26,640 --> 00:03:28,600 My name is Dale Wayne Sigler. 21 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:30,000 I was born... 22 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:33,360 May the 10th, 1967. 23 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:39,640 I was born in 24 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:42,080 Danville, Illinois. 25 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,160 In order to understand the whole story, you have to understand 26 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:52,240 where it all originated from. 27 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:57,480 My mother was first married with two other sons. 28 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:03,080 My father met her when she was going through a lot in her life. 29 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:05,880 She was 15 years old when she first got pregnant. 30 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:08,400 And my mother was really a child 31 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:11,200 trying to find her purpose and place in life. 32 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:12,760 A child having children. 33 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:18,080 My father, he ended up losing his job. 34 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:21,320 He became... 35 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:23,320 very despondent, 36 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:25,080 very frustrated. 37 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:27,760 And he'd become real abusive, 38 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,920 so that trickled down to his kids, to my mother. 39 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,760 I've seen my mother get beat up so bad by my father 40 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:41,200 that... 41 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:43,480 her eyes were black and blue. 42 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:45,000 Lip split. 43 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,800 Go to sleep with a butcher knife under her pillow. 44 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:50,960 'Cause she was afraid that... 45 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:54,000 either... 46 00:04:58,480 --> 00:04:59,920 either her, 47 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:02,200 or one of us kids... 48 00:05:03,280 --> 00:05:04,880 were gonna get hurt critically. 49 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:34,040 Things happened in my childhood that, 50 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,520 you know, traumatized me for the majority of my life. 51 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:43,680 At the age of ten, I was molested by someone in the family. 52 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,400 And that's something that I held in my heart all my life. 53 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:51,960 And I couldn't talk to anyone. 54 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:53,400 Every time I tried to, 55 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:55,640 you know, it was rejection. 56 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,880 One time, I tried talking to my mother about what I went through as a child, 57 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,960 and my mother couldn't deal with the severity of it, 58 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:05,040 and it was just overwhelming, 59 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:07,920 and she went in her room and shut the door. 60 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:10,600 And at that time, it just... 61 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:12,400 It just ate me up inside. 62 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:15,680 Then and there, 63 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:17,800 I just went all the way downhill. 64 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:42,160 When I moved to Texas, 65 00:06:43,280 --> 00:06:45,480 I fell back off into drugs and stuff again. 66 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:50,680 Hooked on cocaine, methamphetamines, intravenously. 67 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:52,880 Smoking speed, drinking. 68 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,320 Living on the streets, robbing, stealing, jacking. 69 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:58,200 Did whatever I could do to survive. 70 00:06:59,840 --> 00:07:02,840 Life just seemed like it was over with, and at that time, 71 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:04,200 I told the Devil, I said: 72 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,640 "You might as well have your way. Let's see what you can do, Devil, 73 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:08,960 because God don't care." 74 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:22,960 That day that I walked into that Subway shop, 75 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:24,280 a lot of things changed. 76 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:46,600 I went in there, 77 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,600 "Now get up and go empty the cash register." 78 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:54,600 I told him to get the money and put it in a bag. 79 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,080 He was so terrified, he run to the back room. 80 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,000 When he run to the back room, I ran back there. 81 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:11,160 When he turned around, I shot him. Six times in the chest. 82 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:33,840 I took John's life selfishly. 83 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:38,720 I'll forever have to carry that pain in my heart, 84 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:41,680 for taking him away from his family. 85 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:44,680 I just wanna say to Mrs. Zeltner 86 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:47,680 and her family that I apologize 87 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:49,600 with my soul and my heart. 88 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:11,240 My name's Tommy Lenoir. 89 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:15,720 In 1990, I was a homicide detective with the Arlington Police Department. 90 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:20,440 I've worked a lot of murders in 26 years in the homicide unit, 91 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,360 and you just never forget 92 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,360 cases of this nature where they're just so absolutely senseless 93 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:28,640 and brutal. 94 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:39,200 We're now at the location, at the Subway, where the... 95 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:41,800 capital murder occurred, 96 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:44,480 back in April of 1990. 97 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,720 When we went into the Subway, the victim was found in a pool of blood, 98 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:00,360 in the office area located at the back of the sandwich shop 99 00:10:10,560 --> 00:10:11,640 The fact that 100 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,400 a murder occurred during the course of a robbery is not unusual. 101 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:17,280 We see that all of the time. 102 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:20,280 The mere brutality of this case, 103 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,840 the, what appeared to be execution-style 104 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:25,400 killing of this victim, 105 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:27,280 that's what made this remarkable. 106 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:31,520 That's what took this to a higher level than other cases of this nature. 107 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:36,080 This was overkill. 108 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,320 He was shot more times than he needed to be shot. 109 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,960 He was also shot in a very cowardly way. He was shot in the back. 110 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:46,840 And then when he fell to the ground and was helpless, probably already dying, 111 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,480 he shot more. Well, that's what overkill is. 112 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,840 It's someone who is, uh... enjoying what they're doing. 113 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,880 You can tell that they really are taking 114 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,880 pleasure into the pain and suffering that they're creating. 115 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:46,360 From the moment I got involved, 116 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:51,880 I was convinced that the real issue and the real battle in this case would be 117 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,880 what is the appropriate punishment to give Dale Sigler? 118 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:02,640 We felt at the time, it was appropriate to seek the death penalty because 119 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:06,280 there was a possibility that if we waive the death penalty, 120 00:12:06,560 --> 00:12:09,280 that he could in fact be paroled after 15 years. 121 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:12,040 And we just didn't think that was enough time. 122 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:20,600 All murders are bad, 123 00:12:20,680 --> 00:12:22,840 there's no such thing as a good murder, but, 124 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:27,240 the facts and circumstances of this case were particularly heinous, I thought. 125 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:33,360 John Zeltner, at the time he was murdered, 126 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:37,000 was about three or four weeks shy of his 31st birthday. 127 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:40,960 The manager that we spoke with 128 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,560 and the fellow employees that we spoke with 129 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:44,640 about John Zeltner, 130 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,920 all described him as a hard-working employee, a nice young man. 131 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:55,320 Dale Sigler knew that John Zeltner was gonna be 132 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:58,240 at the Subway sandwich shop working alone, 133 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,480 but he chose the Subway sandwich shop. 134 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,880 And he chose to rob somebody who actually knew him. 135 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:32,560 And Dale Sigler went into the sandwich shop, sat down, 136 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,440 had a conversation with John Zeltner, 137 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:38,800 bummed a cigarette off of John Zeltner. 138 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:41,320 You know, talked about a few things. 139 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:44,880 Uh... and then just minutes later, 140 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:46,720 summarily executes him 141 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:49,840 for whatever money was in the cash register. 142 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:53,880 That's pretty cold-hearted, in my mind. 143 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,840 I think Dale, in his state of mind, 144 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,520 when he went in there, thought: "Don't leave any witnesses", 145 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:07,000 and Dale knew that John Zeltner could identify him 146 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:11,000 and tell the police within five minutes after he walked out of that 147 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,520 "Hey, the guy that robbed me, 148 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,640 believe it or not, is a guy I know. His name is Dale Sigler." 149 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,720 Sometimes the most simplest of explanations 150 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:23,440 is in fact the best explanation. 151 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:03,080 I went to death row in '91. 152 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:07,920 When they came and got me, 153 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,040 they put me on a chain with everyone else. 154 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:13,520 Started walking towards death row... 155 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:16,080 and, uh... 156 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:18,720 when we hit the hallway, 157 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:22,840 "Dead man walking", like on Green Mile, 158 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:24,520 like it was a joke or something. 159 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:27,560 You know, that's... 160 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,960 when it really hit me, the ramifications of my choices. 161 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,280 I turned my life around when I went to death row. 162 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,080 On death row that first day, I cried out to God. 163 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:46,280 "God, my whole life you've been there for me. 164 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:48,520 You reached out to me when I was a child." 165 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:50,800 "God, manifest your life, please. 166 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:54,880 Show me that you're all-powerful. Allow your light to shine on me, God. 167 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:56,640 Show me that I have a purpose." 168 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,560 That's when I started hearing a little voice, 169 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:06,840 "Just be still, it's gonna be okay." 170 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:09,080 And, uh... 171 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:10,560 that was... 172 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:12,520 that was God. 173 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:16,880 So I started striving to try 174 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:18,440 to not give up. 175 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,440 If I would've been executed, I would've deserved it. 176 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:59,040 But God, I like to believe, had a bigger plan and a purpose for me. 177 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,080 I've been incarcerated now, 27 years, 178 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:18,440 five months. 179 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:20,680 I came in here when I was 21 years old. 180 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:22,280 A lost, disturbed child. 181 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:24,160 I'm a 50-year-old man now, 182 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,800 that has striven to better himself, to rehabilitate himself. 183 00:17:28,120 --> 00:17:29,320 I see God daily. 184 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,880 I study God's word three to four hours every day. 185 00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:33,640 I try to mentor the people. 186 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:35,440 I try to reach out to people. 187 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:39,000 My whole destiny has been paved before me by the word of God. 188 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,320 I'm living testimony and a walking miracle. 189 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,240 All praise and glory to my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, 190 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,720 and from now on, I will walk in His grace. 191 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:02,760 The most unique thing, 192 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,560 I think, about this case, is why the case got reversed. 193 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,600 I would have to say that Dale Sigler's 194 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,640 probably a very lucky man, 195 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:14,800 because but for this... 196 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:20,640 change in the jury selection law that they applied retroactively, 197 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,520 I think there's a very high likelihood that Dale Sigler would've been executed 198 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,360 sometime in the 90's in the state of Texas. 199 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:31,400 Angel, Tilly, somebody. 200 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:33,040 Come on. 201 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:36,520 Tilly! 202 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:46,600 The first time I met Dale was at the Wayne Scott Unit 203 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:47,680 in Angleton. 204 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:50,920 I was there visiting my stepson... 205 00:19:52,360 --> 00:19:54,960 when Dale walked through the door. 206 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,440 Pete introduced us, and it was like... 207 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:00,280 this was a really 208 00:20:00,360 --> 00:20:01,840 sweet man. 209 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,400 Come here. Mama's good. Oh, that's my girl. 210 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:05,920 You hungry? Huh? 211 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:08,840 My name is Carole, 212 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:11,360 and I'm 71 years old. 213 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,080 I live by myself in a mobile home 214 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:17,080 in rural Texas. 215 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:23,000 Miss Kitty is probably around 16, 216 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:24,680 maybe 17 years old. 217 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,360 She is the old lady of the house, like me. 218 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:30,280 And I have three others. 219 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:32,000 This is Ebony. 220 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:37,320 She's the one I found in the cemetery and raised her from basically a newborn. 221 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:38,400 That's my girl. 222 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,520 I've always been a person that wanted to help the helpless, 223 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,040 and the discarded ones. 224 00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:49,520 I guess it's always been part of my nature. 225 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,400 It's like they need me, 226 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,320 and to a point, I need them. 227 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:56,400 Huh. 228 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,120 And it's basically the same way with people. 229 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:09,200 Dale and I became pen pals when my stepson asked me if I would 230 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:10,600 write to him. 231 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,120 So we've been writing back and forth to each other for nine years. 232 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:20,120 I probably have somewhere around 200 plus letters from him. 233 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:29,040 He always starts his letters off to me the same... 234 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:32,560 "God bless you and keep you always 235 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:34,920 within the loving grasp of His hand." 236 00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:40,880 "I am here at Carol Vance Unit." This is when he first got there. 237 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:43,920 "But I'm excited to get started in the program. 238 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,880 I was given a job in the laundry but haven't started yet." 239 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:51,240 Our relationship 240 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:52,960 developed over the years. 241 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:57,640 I was able to go visit him, 242 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,640 and so we got to know each other more. 243 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:03,960 He really doesn't have anybody else in Texas, so... 244 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,720 I kind of stepped in to be there for him. 245 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,240 And that's when he started calling me "Mama Carole". 246 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:14,240 I was... I am his 247 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:16,840 second mom, according to him. 248 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:21,840 "Dear Mama Carole... 249 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:29,240 God bless you and keep you always..." 250 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:32,720 "God is good, Mama." 251 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:36,520 Between visits and letters, 252 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,800 we have really opened up to each other. 253 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,840 "You are a precious gift from my Heavenly Father. 254 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:46,840 My guardian angel, 255 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:51,240 wondrously poised within God's gracious love." 256 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,120 "831." 257 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:56,800 And that stands for 258 00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:59,840 eight letters, three words... 259 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:01,840 one meaning: 260 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:04,040 "I love you." 261 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:08,240 He's a special man. 262 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,160 I can't remember exactly when Dale 263 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,080 asked me if 264 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,280 it was okay for him to parole to my house, 265 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,160 but I could tell when he first started to ask me 266 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,520 he was very shy about it, 267 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:16,360 because I think he was afraid I would say: "Oh, no, no, no." 268 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:22,320 I had my reservations for a moment, 269 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,760 "Well... what's the right thing to do?" 270 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,400 Uh, and I basically... 271 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,360 quickly asked God for, you know, an answer, 272 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:36,760 "This man needs you", 273 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:38,200 and, 274 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,200 that's why I went ahead and said: "Okay, yeah." 275 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,760 That's all I wanna do, is just help him... 276 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:47,600 start over. 277 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:25,760 Put it around my neck? 278 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:30,560 Well, 279 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:32,200 today you got some news. 280 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:34,360 Yes, sir, uh... 281 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,000 Today I found out that, um... 282 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:39,680 I'm getting ready to go home. 283 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:41,680 Uh... 284 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:45,560 Tuesday. 285 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:47,400 Uh... 286 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,160 This is my 30th year incarcerated. 287 00:25:51,120 --> 00:25:52,120 And it's... 288 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:53,640 it's such a blessing, 289 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,240 'cause I never thought that I'd see this day. 290 00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:58,600 I was just overjoyed. 291 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:01,200 Uh... still am... 292 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:02,960 emotional. 293 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:04,600 A little fear, 294 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,040 'cause I've been gone so long. 295 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:09,720 I just praise and thank God 296 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,360 that he's given me a second chance. 297 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,320 The hardest thing is gonna be 298 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:21,600 actually trying to adapt, 299 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,520 because I've been isolated in a small community 300 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:25,760 inside of a community. 301 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,640 People tell me all the time that you really can't fathom 302 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:34,840 what life is like, 303 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,560 what society's like, how much it has changed. 304 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:41,560 People have told me that they went 305 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,880 to the mall, and the colors and the movement just made them sick. 306 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,600 I mean, when I was out there, there was no cell phones. 307 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,600 I mean, there's so many things in society that were non-existent 308 00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:54,240 when I walked in here. 309 00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,920 Carole Whitworth is a blessing, 310 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:01,720 because without Mama Carole, 311 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:04,440 I wouldn't have a place to call home. 312 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:07,520 Mama Carole is a rock. 313 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,640 She's a good old country girl, but she's strong, 314 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:11,800 she has integrity, 315 00:27:12,120 --> 00:27:13,280 love, honor. 316 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:15,960 I mean, she is just such a blessing to me. 317 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,680 I know it's gonna be an uphill battle. 318 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:27,840 People will believe that you're a monster, 319 00:27:28,360 --> 00:27:29,480 that you're an animal, 320 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,880 that you have not changed, that you cannot change. 321 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,320 But one day, those hearts will change. 322 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:37,840 I firmly believe that, 323 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:42,160 because I'm not the lost, disturbed, emotional child that I once was. 324 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:44,680 I'm a grown, focused, 325 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,280 purposeful individual, man of God now. 326 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,760 I just ask that people just give me a chance, 327 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,280 because time is a revealer of all things. 328 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,240 Johnnie Bill was one of the nicest people you'd ever meet. 329 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:36,800 He'd be sitting over there, drinking Keystone beer, 330 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,320 making somebody laugh, telling a joke or something. 331 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:41,440 Definitely a people person. 332 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,360 My name is Forest Allan Zeltner. 333 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,040 Johnnie Bill's actually our half-brother. 334 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:51,760 He was my father's 335 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:53,280 firstborn son. 336 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,000 His name was John William Zeltner, 337 00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:58,400 named after my father, 338 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,160 but everybody that knew him called him Johnnie Bill. 339 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:17,680 Johnnie Bill sought out us, and we were able to meet him. 340 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,200 Instantly, there was a bond and connection between me and him. 341 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:23,920 We were very close. 342 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:27,800 John was just a fun-loving guy. 343 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:29,840 Everybody wanted to be around him. 344 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,280 He lived to help everyone else. 345 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,120 You know, a lot of people that knew my brother 346 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,800 knew that he was gay, and that he was open about it. 347 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:42,920 My father knew it, everybody in my family knew it. 348 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,560 We were all accepted of it, and we just realized that's Johnnie Bill, 349 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:48,880 and that's the way it's gonna be, and he's... 350 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,160 just Johnnie Bill. Still love him. 351 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,240 My name is John Harlan Zeltner. 352 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,800 Johnnie Bill, he come into my life when I was about 16 years old, 353 00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:02,000 you know, and we talked on a daily basis. 354 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:03,080 I mean, every day. 355 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,240 Never had a cross word. Not one time, about anything. 356 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,120 That's rare, you know. 357 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,800 Yeah, we really miss him a lot. 358 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:23,480 You don't realize how fast life goes. 359 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,560 You think your time here is forever, it's really not. 360 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:29,480 At any given moment, you could be... 361 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:31,360 out. 362 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:33,560 Next minute, you could be dead. 363 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:41,000 It was hard. It was really hard hearing that your brother is now dead. 364 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:43,320 It was very hard for me, 365 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:44,960 it was very hard for my father, 366 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,720 and it was very hard for my younger brother. 367 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,480 I was pissed. Yeah, I was pissed. 368 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,280 I mean, I had some thoughts in my head, 369 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:56,920 that I would have liked to have done, but I didn't. 370 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,080 When I heard that he got death sentence, I was happy about it, 371 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:03,440 but at the same time, 372 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,520 I wanted the death sentence to happen right then and there. 373 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:07,640 I wanted him gone. 374 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,360 When I found out he wasn't gonna get death sentence, that it went back to... 375 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:15,920 pissed off again. 376 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:19,240 He shouldn't be alive. 377 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:20,400 Now he gets to walk? 378 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,240 No. I don't feel the system's done right there. 379 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:33,600 When I found out he was paroled, 380 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,160 it was like the nightmare starting all over again. 381 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:39,040 We weren't even notified. 382 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:40,240 Nobody told us. 383 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:41,960 Nobody said anything about it. 384 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,440 I really believe the justice system failed us. 385 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:48,160 I think it's bullshit. 386 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,480 I think the state of Texas needs to reevaluate their whole judicial system, 387 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:54,240 you know, 100%. 388 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:55,760 You kill somebody like that, 389 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,960 you should never see the light of day. Never. 390 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,320 I believe he is a huge risk to society. 391 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:06,520 I believe he will kill again. 392 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:08,760 Soon. 393 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:37,120 This is Dale's room. 394 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,360 It's gonna be a lot bigger than what he's used to. 395 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:48,400 For Dale, 396 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:49,880 he's always 397 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,080 gonna have that label of being a murderer. 398 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,400 And a lot of people are not gonna give him 399 00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:58,760 the opportunity or the chance 400 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,160 to let them see the type of person he is now. 401 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,160 My family had their reservations. 402 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,240 Their main concern is he killed somebody, 403 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:15,160 so he might kill me. 404 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,320 They've actually said, "Are you nuts? Are you crazy? Why?" 405 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:22,720 They don't understand why. 406 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:25,880 They're gonna take some convincing. 407 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:29,760 So how long has Dale been in prison? 408 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:30,960 Thirty years. 409 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:32,800 - For what? - Murder. 410 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:34,840 Who'd he... No... 411 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,200 - Huh? - I don't know. 412 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:41,200 How many times you went to see him? 413 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:42,920 I went to see him 414 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,480 maybe three or four times? 415 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:47,320 I've been to see him twice... 416 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:48,960 No, three times 417 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,400 since he's been locked up at this unit he's at now. 418 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:54,920 I know you have concerns and all that. 419 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,560 You were afraid that since he murdered somebody, 420 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,200 that he would murder again. You know, he would kill somebody again. 421 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:04,360 And uh-uh. 422 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:05,440 He won't do that. 423 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,080 In prison right now, they call him "The Gentle Giant". 424 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:10,280 - Really? - Yes. 425 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:15,840 - Love you, Granny. - I love you, too. 426 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:17,800 Bye, baby. Mm. 427 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:20,240 Everything's gonna be just fine. 428 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:23,160 Y'all come over and see Dale, 429 00:34:23,240 --> 00:34:24,760 and visit with him for a bit. 430 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:26,080 You'll be fine. 431 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:28,760 - Let me know when he gets here. - I will. 432 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:40,800 Carole, she's a good lady. She's nice, 433 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,360 so I guess she sees the good in people. 434 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:45,960 She'd rather they be good than bad. 435 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:47,120 She's good-hearted, 436 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,880 and I just don't want the guy 437 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:52,760 to be some crazy, try to kill us, 438 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,880 or her, or anyone. 439 00:34:57,880 --> 00:34:59,600 I don't think he's gonna do that... 440 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:01,840 You don't even know him, so how do you know? 441 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:05,040 People change. 442 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:07,280 Not really. 443 00:35:23,720 --> 00:35:25,040 I got up at four, 444 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:27,280 for the alarm was going off, 445 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:31,120 and I felt like I had just gone to sleep. 446 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:34,960 "Really? Already." 447 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,400 I can feel the emotions building. 448 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,080 And it's like: 449 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,600 "Calm down, keep it under control, 450 00:35:46,240 --> 00:35:47,720 everything's gonna be great." 451 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:53,120 But I know when I get there, and I actually see Dale, 452 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,520 that it's gonna hit me full force then. 453 00:35:58,120 --> 00:35:59,680 Definitely is gonna be 454 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:01,720 a special moment that... 455 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:04,920 we'll never forget. 456 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:11,000 I've had 457 00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,520 this fleeting kind of moments of 458 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:16,720 doubt. 459 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,200 It might hit me for a moment, then I just put it out of my head. 460 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,920 I don't wanna think that I made the wrong decision. 461 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,280 Well, we're just now coming up to the unit, 462 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:36,600 so... 463 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:37,680 This is the turn. 464 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:44,360 I don't know how to explain it, but I feel that he has changed, and... 465 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,160 he's not that man anymore. I feel it deep down inside. 466 00:36:48,240 --> 00:36:50,840 Everything's gonna be fine. It's gonna be perfect. 467 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:58,600 If Dale is doing all this to take advantage of me, 468 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:01,880 then he's got his reward waiting for him 469 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:03,840 on Judgment Day. 470 00:37:08,704 --> 00:37:11,704 Subtitles Diego Moraes(oakislandtk) www.opensubtitles.org