[guitar music plays]
-[children chattering] -[Dale] Going into the church.
And the little ones out here playing.
[chuckles]
Having fun.
-How's everybody doing? -[man] Hey.
-How you doing? -Good.
[Dale] Good to see you, bud.
-How you doing? -My son, Quentin.
-Hey. -Quentin, nice to meet you.
[Dale] Recently, my parole officer just allowed me to start going to church.
I've been attending for about six weeks now,
and it's a blessing to me.
-[man] Dale. -Good to see you. How you doing?
-Greasy hand. -It's okay.
It's okay. God bless you.
[Dale] I have waited for this moment for a long time,
and these people understand that.
[crowd] Father, guide me to make the right decisions,
and teach me to use my time
to accomplish the greatest good
and to strengthen this life of mine.
[woman over speaker] I think it would be appropriate now, Dale,
if you'd come forward and give us your testimony.
[Dale] I just wanna say that I'm grateful for each and every one of you
that have given me an opportunity.
You've opened your hearts, and you opened your church
and your lives to me.
[Dale] I wasn't strong enough until three, four years ago
to be able to step forward and admit who I was and what I was.
I went to court for capital murder in 1990,
and ended up on death row for three years
for the life that I took for someone trying to
blackmail me into a homosexual relationship.
[Dale] Some people will think that I shouldn't breathe another breath
after the moment that I took that life.
So, because I'm a murderer, I don't have the right to tell the truth?
I'm not concerned about the people that want to speculate,
because the children of God will understand.
[opening theme music plays]
[Dale] It's important that people understand
that we have these trials and tribulations that we go through in life.
And that day that I took that life,
I was taking my own, I didn't wanna live anymore.
'Cause I was tired of living in that pain.
[ominous music plays]
[Dale] In my childhood, I went through some things.
Being molested at the age of ten,
it scarred me and hurt me for life.
I was growing up with that stigmatization of being molested.
It was hard.
It made me question about my sexuality and who I was and am I really a man?
It was like the catalyst to
self-destruction eventually 11 years later,
'cause I was running from my demons and my fears.
And when I came to Texas,
it all started again.
The time around the murder,
I was really emotional.
I was really lost.
I was back on the intravenous drug, shooting meth, cocaine.
And that's when I met John.
And, uh... we became close friends.
He let me come over and shower, you know, take a nap.
I confided in him and told him about,
you know, what I've been through, and why I was living on the streets,
about being molested at ten.
You know, in time,
I trusted John. I got to know John.
I thought he was a really sincere, good friend.
That one night when I came over to his house,
I took a shower
and lay down. I fell asleep. I woke up, he was on top of me.
I pushed him off of me.
I said, "What are you doing?" I grabbed my stuff,
and that...
that fear kicked in
of when I was ten.
I told him, "John, I befriended you, man.
What made you think that I would want that?"
He told me, "Man, if you don't... If you don't agree,
I'm gonna tell everybody that you were doing it anyway."
[ominous music continues]
I suppressed everything for all my life, but...
I reached my breaking point.
I befriended John...
and then he tried to blackmail me into a homosexual relationship.
I told him, "I don't have nothing to live for."
I said, "If you do that, I promise you I'll kill you."
And I meant that with all my heart, because I didn't care about my own life.
Two days after John tried to abuse me
is when he made calls looking for me,
and I took that as a threat that he was gonna tell people that
we had a sexual relationship, which was a lie.
Because I may be a lot of things, and I might even be a killer, a murderer.
But I've never been a homosexual.
And I decided that I was gonna fight back,
that I'd warned him.
And I was gonna fulfill what I said I was gonna do.
[sinister music plays]
April 6th, 1990...
I walked into that Subway sandwich shop.
And he said, "So, you decided to come around and see it my way, huh?"
And I took the .45 out of my pocket,
I set it on the top of tabletop, and I pushed it right in front of him,
and he started shaking, literally. He was terrified.
[tense music builds]
I shot him six times in the chest.
Then when he fell,
I emptied the rest of the clip.
Shot him twice in the back of the head as he lay there.
[dramatic music plays]
I question myself a lot
about how I let myself get in that situation, that I would do that.
It's a dark place to be.
I mean, to be that broken.
I'll forever be paying for that.
I wish I would've never taken John's life.
No one deserved that.
That's why I haven't forgiven myself to this day.
And people tell me I gotta get past it.
I gotta forgive myself.
It's not an easy thing to do.
You know, but I can't turn back the hands of time.
All I can do is make my life account of the matter now
and try to give back.
You know, my life has been...
a torment of winds and frustrations and tides
that kept pulling me out deeper and deeper...
That's why I wanna tell the story. Give back.
I wanna help other people, to let them know being molested
or being abused or whatever you're going through.
You have to reach out to somebody until somebody hears you.
I didn't do nothing as a ten-year-old child
to warrant being molested,
but I held that my whole entire life.
I had nowhere to release it. I had nowhere to go,
but that pain became my process to my purpose,
to the vision that God has for me.
Because I know each and every day that I live,
and that every breath that I take
is living proof that miracles really can happen.
Thank you.
[audience] Amen!
[clapping]
[man] I think it's a story of redemption and...
we're all capable of being redeemed
if we go the right route.
I thought it was tremendous.
I can relate to Dale a whole lot,
'cause I was locked up myself
for 28 years flat
on an attempted murder case,
but I didn't do like Dale.
Dale got smart and found God and all that stuff,
and I didn't. I was-- I just kept rebelling.
I think Dale is good, man.
He knows what he's talking about.
[indistinct chattering]
There's been a lot of blessings since I've been out,
and a lot of people's hearts have been softened.
That's the prayer I've had since I've been out.
-Yeah. -So, God's been making a way.
[Carole] Over these few months,
Dale has made a lot of progress.
He has won a lot of people over,
uh... especially the church members.
They are just blown away by him
when he testifies and tells them his story.
Dale is winning people over every...
time he has the opportunity to speak with them.
[knocking]
[Carole gasps] Hi!
-Come on in. -[Dale] How y'all doing?
[Shannon] Pretty good.
-[Carole] This is Dale. -How you doing?
Dale, this is my grandson, Shannon Junior.
-How you doing? -[Carole] Jenny.
-[Carole] Cheyenne. -[Dale] I appreciate you coming.
[Shannon] I've been wanting to, been busy.
With me, what you see is what you get. There's no question you can't ask
that I won't try to answer.
And I own who I am and what I am and where I've come from.
-One thing I've never been -He has nothing to hide.
is timid to the point of where, you know, I won't answer a question.
[Jenny] Do you mind us asking like how? -You wanna know how?
Back from when I was ten, I was molested as a child,
11 years later, living on the street,
someone try to blackmail me into a homosexual relationship.
And I told him, "Where I'm at in life and in this time...
if you do that, I'm gonna kill you."
I said, "'Cause all I have left is,
you know, my reputation,
and keeping my word and being a decent individual",
you know?
And he thought it was a game.
-[Shannon] You shot him? -[Dale] Yeah.
That night, I took two lives. His and mine.
But it's by the grace of God that I'm still alive.
[reflective piano music playing]
[Dale] Not everyone is gonna understand or be receptive to my story,
because there's two types of people in the world people are terrified of,
and that's murderers and child molesters.
And I'm a murderer.
-[Carole] Too much cuteness. -Good seeing you.
Gradually, people that got to talk to me
and converse with me and hear my story,
they generally see the man I am now.
Appreciate y'all coming.
-Don't be a stranger. Come on by. -[Carole] Yeah, anytime.
-[Shannon] What do you think about him? -He talks a lot. [chuckles]
I mean, yeah, he's been inside
-prison all his life. -He's cool.
He's gonna talk. Tell everybody his story...
so everybody knows who he is.
Yeah, seemed like he learned a lot in prison.
He was on drugs and going through a rough time.
The guy also did something to hurt him, too.
I'd probably do the same thing he would.
[ominous music plays]
[Dale over tape] Before the murder, I was living on the streets,
and I met John Zeltner.
You know, I trusted John. I got to know John.
I thought he was a really sincere, good friend.
And then he tried to blackmail me into a homosexual relationship.
I told him, "I don't have nothing to live for."
I said, "If you do that, I promise you I'll kill you."
If he's saying that's what he believes today,
and still believes that that was justified,
I'll be frank with you, I got problems.
I got concerns...
uh...
with society being exposed to that type of irrational thought.
I'm not gonna call somebody a liar. I don't know what's true or not.
I will say this:
That information, if that information
is true, and if it's accurate,
that should've been told to a jury.
And so, I'll be frank with you, I wouldn't believe that on face value.
He's claiming, if I'm correct, that he's being blackmailed...
by an individual saying that he...
um... is gay.
All right?
To me, I think it's rather ridiculous.
If someone wants to
uh... claim that my lifestyle is something other than it is,
I don't care. Go right ahead.
I know who I am. What's that gonna do to me?
How is that gonna hurt me? All right?
I don't have a right to go take your life.
It's pretty extreme. No, that's very extreme.
And, uh...
it's really irrational.
Mr. Sigler is now reversing roles.
He has turned himself into the victim,
and John Zeltner into the bad guy.
And he's not a victim. He is not a victim.
If he's a victim of anything, he's a victim of himself
and of his own actions. Nobody else.
Nobody in society is to blame for what happened. Period.
Except himself.
You need to get on your knees and not only thank your God.
Get on your knees and thank society for that second chance.
Talking about how people need to understand him.
Let me tell you something. Society is giving you this second chance.
You need to be grateful. You need to be humble.
Be accountable.
Quit making up excuses, quit talking about it, move forward.
And now do what's right.
[ominous music plays]
[thunder booming]
[Dale] It's not about shifting blame. It's about telling the truth.
I take full responsibility for the life that I took...
but try to understand how I got to that point.
I couldn't see clearly.
I couldn't see a future. I couldn't see a life.
All I seeing was the torment and the pain.
[interviewer] Was there nothing else you could've done? Rather than killing?
People don't understand.
They always wanna talk about what you could've done.
Hindsight is 20/20.
You know, what you could've done and conjecture 30 years later,
that's a waste of time to me.
It doesn't resolve a situation. It doesn't bring John's life back.
See, what people don't want to understand is,
the pain and torment that got you to that point
to where you would take a life.
[interviewer] Why didn't you tell people at the time?
Why would I wanna tell people?
The times that I tried to reach out and tell my attorney and tell people,
you know, it's like I was ridiculed.
I was told the first time that I met my attorney,
"What are you? The biggest idiot in the world?"
The judicial system doesn't really wanna know.
My attorneys really didn't wanna know.
So, why would I wanna share with anyone?
Because I felt like there was no way that anyone was gonna understand.
It didn't matter to me.
I just wanted it over.
I wanted to die.
[interviewer] Do you have resentment towards gay men, are you homophobic?
-How do you feel about people who are gay? -No.
I didn't kill him because he was gay.
I've never been resentful or homophobic
or had any type of
issues with other people's choices in life.
'Cause I'm not judgmental of people.
Do I believe in homosexuality? No, I believe it's abomination to God.
'Cause that's what the principles of the word of God tell me.
That's what they teach me.
But your damned to live that life.
But I don't sit in judgment of people. I love people in spite of.
So, no, as a child and even to this day, I'm not judgmental.
I don't hate anyone for their beliefs
or their sexuality.
Never have.
But it seems other people wanna sit in judgment of me
because I killed a homosexual, trying to make it into a hate crime.
It wasn't about that.
[interviewer] I wonder if he misread your signals.
There is no way that you can misread my signals.
There is no way that you can misconstrue the type of man that I was.
There's no way.
See, people think that there just-- Maybe there's something more
to this that we just don't know,
or maybe this is just for five minutes of fame or,
maybe this is, you know,
trying to cover something else up, or...
No, this is genuine.
This is exactly what happened and the truth of the matter.
-[ominous music plays] -[water trickling]
[Dale] I'm telling the story not to villainize the individual,
not to make an excuse, not to try to justify
what I've done.
I don't care what people say or what they think or what they see anymore.
Because I know it's the truth.
[Greg] It's the perfect cover,
because the person that can really tell everybody what really happened is dead.
I guess it's pretty easy to shift responsibility to a dead man
when he can't come forward and,
tell us probably what really was the relationship
between
Dale Sigler and himself.
And even if you were to say Sigler is telling the truth there,
that's not much of a reason to go out and kill somebody.
Because of an attempted
homosexual liaison?
Come on. Give me a break.
Well, I suppose the question becomes,
is it a worse set of facts that John Zeltner got killed because
Dale Sigler alleged he was a homosexual
and was blackmailing
Dale Sigler?
Or is it a worse set of facts that he killed John Zeltner
uh, because he wanted to get money
for more drugs and more booze?
Either scenario is pretty damning, I think.
You know, whatever spin you wanna put on it,
there is one common denominator, and that is John Zeltner is dead.
[reflective music playing]
I really have no idea if he's remorseful.
I hope he is.
I hope he thinks about every day what he's done to my family.
There's no forgiveness.
I will never, ever forgive him.
He couldn't say or do anything to me to bring my brother back.
Should I forgive him?
No, no.
Not at all.
Wouldn't change one bit if I thought he was gonna be reformed.
I still feel the same way.
You know, what you did before,
you should pay for.
[Greg] I think anybody that's been a prosecutor, defense lawyer, or a judge
for any amount of time
have asked the question:
"What is a fair punishment for murder?"
And...
I will tell you that's a very difficult question to answer.
I am comfortable with the sentence that he received in this case.
Regardless of what people say,
thirty years in prison is a boatload of time.
Dale has basically spent almost 60% of his life in prison,
so...
I'm okay with the sentence.
But he better not screw up again.
[rock music plays over radio]
Driving a car after 30 years,
it's a beautiful thing.
I waited a long time to be able to
get in my own automobile and be able to drive
and take myself to work
and just enjoy life, have the wind blowing in your hair,
you know, have the radio on.
Just being free.
And that's really what it's about.
[goat bleating]
[soft dramatic music plays]
[Dale] I look forward to coming every day,
'cause it's a little bit, you know, quiet,
peace, tranquility.
I mean, being stuck in prison with all that screaming and hollering,
you know, it's kind of frustrating.
Now you don't have to deal with that, it's a relief.
Ain't nothing like a hard week of work,
come home with a pocket with money
and take a shower, sit down, and eat dinner with someone you love.
You know, just talk about life. Just enjoy life, you know?
We just take it for granted. I know I did.
You know, every moment's precious now to me.
[Carole] I've been
kind of on my own for a while now.
And even though I like my privacy,
it's nice to have somebody else to talk to and just pal around with.
So, we're having a good time.
Learning about things about our pasts and each other
and enjoying it. Just enjoying it.
That's my yearbook from high school.
-I got this-- -That's when I was born.
-And? What are you trying to say? -1967.
-That's a good year. -Oh, okay.
You should've had a good year that year.
Your picture in there?
-Yes. -[cackles]
-Oh, cut it out! -Yeah!
-[laughs] -Cut it out.
[Dale] Yeah.
[Carole] Our relationship is still good.
We still love each other,
but yeah, we have our moments,
but we always kiss and make up.
You really wanna see...
my picture?
Yeah, where is it?
-I ain't gonna tell you. [laughs] -Ah.
You gots to find me.
[Carole] Dale is still a big kid at heart.
He gets goofy.
He's having fun, and he's wanting to express
that happiness, and he can only do it by being a big kid.
-Still ain't found me? -You trying to stop me
-from getting your picture. -I'm not.
-Yeah, you are. -No, I'm not.
-No, I am not. -Okay, I'm just saying.
[Dale] That's you?
-[Carole] Yep. -Mama Carole, you beautiful.
-Still beautiful, but you was beautiful. -[chuckles]
Well, thank you.
Dale] If I was 19 years old, and in school with you then,
-I would've been chasing you. -[Carole] Oh!
-You was gorgeous. -Oh...
You was gorgeous.
[Carole] I really didn't know that much of the details
about the murder,
until we were sitting in the living room,
and I asked him about it.
When he told me what happened,
I was in a little bit of shock.
And then my heart broke even more,
because...
I could see how much he was hurting.
So, I didn't change my opinion of how I felt about him.
And no matter what, I got his back.
[wind rustling]
[soft piano music plays]
[Dale] Life at the moment is...
pretty beautiful.
When you think back on it, how far I've come,
what I've came through...
I couldn't see this day coming.
To be in this moment and just to be able to...
smell the fresh air, look at the clouds in the sky,
it's just...
It's a beautiful day.
What is a fair punishment
for murder?
I know that I deserved this opportunity.
I know I've earned
this freedom.
After 30 years of incarceration,
I've paid my price. More than enough.
I've changed. I've grown. I've matured.
So, yeah, I deserve this.
I deserve opportunity, just like anyone else.
[closing music plays]