1
00:00:05,501 --> 00:00:08,661
<i>[slow dramatic music]</i>

2
00:00:12,261 --> 00:00:16,341
<i>It's incredibly claustrophobic, isn't it?</i>

3
00:00:17,261 --> 00:00:19,301
<i>You think someone would
have seen something,</i>

4
00:00:19,381 --> 00:00:20,701
<i>wouldn't you?</i>

5
00:00:31,661 --> 00:00:34,861
<i>[David] 39, blue door, 37.</i>

6
00:00:41,101 --> 00:00:42,261
<i>There it is.</i>

7
00:00:44,381 --> 00:00:47,981
<i>Can you remember when the appointment was?</i>

8
00:00:48,061 --> 00:00:51,061
<i>[Emilia] 12:45 with Mr. Kipper.</i>

9
00:00:51,381 --> 00:00:54,141
<i>And then she just disappears.</i>

10
00:00:55,941 --> 00:00:59,581
<i>And we have no idea what happened to her.</i>

11
00:01:05,021 --> 00:01:08,301
<i>[eerie childish music]</i>

12
00:01:37,621 --> 00:01:40,621
<i>[suspenseful music]</i>

13
00:01:53,181 --> 00:01:58,501
<i>Suzy Lamplugh was only 25 years
old when she went missing.</i>

14
00:01:58,581 --> 00:02:01,861
<i>She's described as bright
and bubbly, funny, ambitious</i>

15
00:02:01,941 --> 00:02:05,421
<i>popular, and hugely adept at her job.</i>

16
00:02:05,501 --> 00:02:06,941
<i>[David] She was in an estate agent.</i>

17
00:02:07,021 --> 00:02:07,781
<i>[Emilia] She was doing well.</i>

18
00:02:07,861 --> 00:02:09,381
<i>She's a professional young woman.</i>

19
00:02:09,461 --> 00:02:10,781
<i>She's living in her own flat.</i>

20
00:02:10,861 --> 00:02:12,181
<i>She's got her own money,</i>

21
00:02:12,261 --> 00:02:15,901
<i>and here suddenly she goes
missing off the streets of Fulham</i>

22
00:02:15,981 --> 00:02:19,341
<i>and no one can work out what
on earth has happened to her.</i>

23
00:02:19,421 --> 00:02:22,021
<i>And if she could go
missing in broad daylight</i>

24
00:02:22,101 --> 00:02:23,581
<i>never to be seen again,</i>

25
00:02:23,661 --> 00:02:25,581
<i>well, what about all the other women?</i>

26
00:02:25,661 --> 00:02:27,421
<i>Are they in danger too?</i>

27
00:02:27,501 --> 00:02:30,421
<i>And then she was declared dead in 1993,</i>

28
00:02:30,501 --> 00:02:33,301
<i>but no one has ever been prosecuted.</i>

29
00:02:33,381 --> 00:02:36,341
<i>And yet it was one of the
largest police investigations</i>

30
00:02:36,421 --> 00:02:37,981
<i>of its day.</i>

31
00:02:38,061 --> 00:02:41,061
<i>And it's not for the want
of trying by her parents,</i>

32
00:02:41,141 --> 00:02:43,461
<i>Diana and Paul Lamplugh.</i>

33
00:02:44,261 --> 00:02:46,061
<i>Who you had a personal connection to?</i>

34
00:02:46,141 --> 00:02:48,861
<i>Yeah, I shared many a platform with Diana</i>

35
00:02:48,941 --> 00:02:51,781
<i>throughout the '80s and the '90s,</i>

36
00:02:51,861 --> 00:02:53,821
<i>and I remember one particular occasion.</i>

37
00:02:53,901 --> 00:02:57,541
<i>She got all the women
in the hall to stand up</i>

38
00:02:57,621 --> 00:02:59,341
<i>and then she made them scream.</i>

39
00:02:59,421 --> 00:03:03,861
<i>And she said, if my Suzy had screamed</i>

40
00:03:03,941 --> 00:03:06,461
<i>maybe she'd be alive today.</i>

41
00:03:08,461 --> 00:03:11,421
<i>Okay, well let's look at
the witness statements</i>

42
00:03:11,501 --> 00:03:12,261
<i>that we've got,</i>

43
00:03:12,341 --> 00:03:13,941
<i>and try and piece together</i>

44
00:03:14,021 --> 00:03:16,381
<i>the facts that we know about what happened</i>

45
00:03:16,461 --> 00:03:19,101
<i>on the day Suzy disappeared.</i>

46
00:03:22,101 --> 00:03:24,541
<i>[slow music]</i>

47
00:03:29,181 --> 00:03:32,181
<i>There are literally scores
of witness statements</i>

48
00:03:32,261 --> 00:03:33,821
<i>on the day.</i>

49
00:03:33,901 --> 00:03:37,221
<i>Noel Devier, an unemployed barman who says</i>

50
00:03:37,301 --> 00:03:42,301
<i>he sees Suzy outside 37
Shorells Road about 12:50.</i>

51
00:03:44,701 --> 00:03:48,501
<i>[indistinct chatter]</i>

52
00:03:48,581 --> 00:03:51,261
<i>We know that she goes into
her estate agent's store</i>

53
00:03:51,341 --> 00:03:52,541
<i>just on the Fulham Road</i>

54
00:03:52,621 --> 00:03:55,101
<i>and that she tries to deal
with a flurry of offers</i>

55
00:03:55,181 --> 00:03:57,941
<i>that came in for houses over the weekend.</i>

56
00:03:58,021 --> 00:04:01,701
<i>And they managed to trace
all the clients that Suzy had</i>

57
00:04:01,781 --> 00:04:05,661
<i>except Mr. Kipper, who they
could find no details of.</i>

58
00:04:05,741 --> 00:04:07,021
<i>We know her car,</i>

59
00:04:07,101 --> 00:04:11,341
<i>this white Ford Fiesta,
is found a mile away</i>

60
00:04:11,421 --> 00:04:14,301
<i>from Shorells Road, in Stevenage Road</i>

61
00:04:14,381 --> 00:04:16,901
<i>outside this very garage.</i>

62
00:04:21,221 --> 00:04:24,181
<i>Significantly the driver's
seat was pushed back</i>

63
00:04:24,261 --> 00:04:26,541
<i>from its usual forward position.</i>

64
00:04:26,621 --> 00:04:29,021
<i>So further back than
probably a woman would have</i>

65
00:04:29,101 --> 00:04:30,181
<i>it to drive.</i>

66
00:04:31,741 --> 00:04:33,741
<i>The car was parked askew from the pavement</i>

67
00:04:33,821 --> 00:04:37,101
<i>and about 18 inches across this garage.</i>

68
00:04:37,181 --> 00:04:39,901
<i>And the handbrake wasn't engaged.</i>

69
00:04:39,981 --> 00:04:43,101
<i>The door to the driver's side was open.</i>

70
00:04:43,181 --> 00:04:45,541
<i>The passenger door was locked.</i>

71
00:04:45,621 --> 00:04:47,021
<i>The hypothesis must be</i>

72
00:04:47,101 --> 00:04:48,781
<i>that the man who abducts her</i>

73
00:04:48,861 --> 00:04:51,021
<i>drives her car to this spot</i>

74
00:04:51,101 --> 00:04:53,301
<i>so that he can transfer her</i>

75
00:04:53,381 --> 00:04:56,341
<i>from this car into a car
that he's already got parked</i>

76
00:04:56,421 --> 00:04:58,101
<i>somewhere up the street.</i>

77
00:04:58,181 --> 00:04:59,701
<i>How did he do that?</i>

78
00:04:59,781 --> 00:05:02,461
<i>By using violence or
the threat of violence,</i>

79
00:05:02,541 --> 00:05:04,621
<i>or perhaps even charm?</i>

80
00:05:08,901 --> 00:05:10,141
<i>There are witness reports</i>

81
00:05:10,221 --> 00:05:12,581
<i>that someone fitting Suzy's description</i>

82
00:05:12,661 --> 00:05:15,981
<i>was seen possibly arguing
with a smartly dressed man</i>

83
00:05:16,061 --> 00:05:20,581
<i>in a black BMW or Mercedes
racing off in this area.</i>

84
00:05:22,501 --> 00:05:24,381
<i>We should speak to someone
who worked on the case</i>

85
00:05:24,461 --> 00:05:26,901
<i>the day Suzy went missing.</i>

86
00:05:28,701 --> 00:05:32,541
<i>[slow mysterious piano music]</i>

87
00:05:38,981 --> 00:05:41,021
<i>I'm running a bit late.</i>

88
00:05:41,101 --> 00:05:42,701
<i>I'm going to speak to a detective</i>

89
00:05:42,781 --> 00:05:45,781
<i>who was on the case from day one.</i>

90
00:05:45,861 --> 00:05:46,941
<i>Okay.</i>

91
00:05:47,021 --> 00:05:48,781
<i>Speak to you later.</i>

92
00:05:56,781 --> 00:06:00,221
<i>Brings back a lot of emotion, really.</i>

93
00:06:01,501 --> 00:06:04,701
<i>It's a mystery, absolute mystery.</i>

94
00:06:07,181 --> 00:06:10,141
<i>I went to Suzy's flat.</i>

95
00:06:10,221 --> 00:06:11,901
<i>Paul Lamplugh, Suzy's father,</i>

96
00:06:11,981 --> 00:06:13,741
<i>was already at Fulham police station.</i>

97
00:06:13,821 --> 00:06:16,141
<i>So I took him with me.</i>

98
00:06:16,221 --> 00:06:18,061
<i>-Emotions were high.
-[Emilia] Yeah.</i>

99
00:06:18,141 --> 00:06:20,341
<i>Because I didn't know what I
was going to find in there.</i>

100
00:06:20,421 --> 00:06:24,461
<i>Mr. Lamplugh had to be
restrained by my colleague</i>

101
00:06:24,541 --> 00:06:26,301
<i>not to follow me in.</i>

102
00:06:27,101 --> 00:06:30,461
<i>And nothing untoward was found in there.</i>

103
00:06:30,541 --> 00:06:32,061
<i>There was no disturbance.</i>

104
00:06:32,141 --> 00:06:34,221
<i>There was no sign of Suzy.</i>

105
00:06:34,301 --> 00:06:36,701
<i>And there was nothing that
would give you any information</i>

106
00:06:36,781 --> 00:06:40,621
<i>about what had happened in
any way, any connection?</i>

107
00:06:40,701 --> 00:06:42,981
<i>Nothing at all, absolutely nothing.</i>

108
00:06:43,061 --> 00:06:44,701
<i>It's like a parent's worst nightmare.</i>

109
00:06:44,781 --> 00:06:46,981
<i>Exactly, exactly that.</i>

110
00:06:49,581 --> 00:06:51,741
<i>-We didn't have CCTV.
-[Emilia] Yeah.</i>

111
00:06:51,821 --> 00:06:54,021
<i>We didn't have mobile phone intelligence.</i>

112
00:06:54,101 --> 00:06:54,861
<i>Yeah.</i>

113
00:06:54,941 --> 00:06:56,661
<i>We didn't have DNA.</i>

114
00:06:56,741 --> 00:07:00,141
<i>Would we have found Suzy alive immediately</i>

115
00:07:00,221 --> 00:07:02,341
<i>because of technology
that we've got today?</i>

116
00:07:02,421 --> 00:07:04,101
<i>I think we would have done.</i>

117
00:07:04,181 --> 00:07:07,021
<i>Every single detective on that team,</i>

118
00:07:07,101 --> 00:07:10,101
<i>they had one aim and
that was to find Suzy.</i>

119
00:07:10,181 --> 00:07:11,181
<i>[Emilia] Yeah.</i>

120
00:07:11,261 --> 00:07:13,581
<i>It became sort of, it
ran our lives really.</i>

121
00:07:13,661 --> 00:07:17,141
<i>That was your main objective in life.</i>

122
00:07:17,221 --> 00:07:20,061
<i>And even today, there's that feeling</i>

123
00:07:20,141 --> 00:07:21,701
<i>we failed them.</i>

124
00:07:21,781 --> 00:07:23,781
<i>We failed the family.</i>

125
00:07:29,341 --> 00:07:32,181
<i>What would you like to see happen now?</i>

126
00:07:32,261 --> 00:07:36,581
<i>My hope would be purely
to find where Suzy lays.</i>

127
00:07:36,661 --> 00:07:40,061
<i>Unfortunately, Mr. and Mrs.
Lamplugh are now deceased.</i>

128
00:07:40,141 --> 00:07:40,941
<i>Yeah.</i>

129
00:07:41,021 --> 00:07:42,461
<i>But it still leaves siblings.</i>

130
00:07:42,541 --> 00:07:44,861
<i>They need to put Suzy to rest</i>

131
00:07:44,941 --> 00:07:48,581
<i>in the place where they want to rest her.</i>

132
00:07:51,141 --> 00:07:54,461
<i>[slow mysterious music]</i>

133
00:07:58,141 --> 00:08:03,141
<i>As a case that remains with
him all these years later,</i>

134
00:08:03,341 --> 00:08:05,221
<i>he said that there was a sense of failure</i>

135
00:08:05,301 --> 00:08:07,541
<i>that they didn't find Suzy.</i>

136
00:08:07,621 --> 00:08:11,941
<i>He wanted Suzy's body to
be found for the family.</i>

137
00:08:12,021 --> 00:08:15,701
<i>And of course to find out who did it.</i>

138
00:08:16,941 --> 00:08:20,741
<i>Okay, I'm on my way to
see Richard Lamplugh,</i>

139
00:08:20,821 --> 00:08:22,341
<i>Suzy's brother.</i>

140
00:08:23,541 --> 00:08:26,141
<i>[Emilia] What are you gonna ask him?</i>

141
00:08:26,221 --> 00:08:28,861
<i>I don't want our investigation to be seen</i>

142
00:08:28,941 --> 00:08:31,781
<i>as intrusive in any way.</i>

143
00:08:31,861 --> 00:08:33,781
<i>And so I'd like to find out from him</i>

144
00:08:33,861 --> 00:08:36,581
<i>what he'd like us to discover.</i>

145
00:08:38,221 --> 00:08:40,861
<i>[Emilia] I hope it goes okay.</i>

146
00:08:43,301 --> 00:08:46,221
<i>[slow piano music]</i>

147
00:08:51,701 --> 00:08:53,061
<i>[Richard] She looks very
pretty there, doesn't she?</i>

148
00:08:53,141 --> 00:08:54,741
<i>She's beautiful.</i>

149
00:08:54,821 --> 00:08:57,061
<i>That's how I really remember her.</i>

150
00:08:57,141 --> 00:08:59,141
<i>She enjoyed the good times, you know.</i>

151
00:08:59,221 --> 00:09:03,661
<i>And in that time when she,
before she disappeared</i>

152
00:09:03,741 --> 00:09:08,741
<i>things were all going well and
things seem to be looking up.</i>

153
00:09:08,821 --> 00:09:11,381
<i>And can you remember that
time when you suddenly</i>

154
00:09:11,461 --> 00:09:12,781
<i>realized she'd gone missing?</i>

155
00:09:12,861 --> 00:09:14,501
<i>What was that day like?</i>

156
00:09:14,581 --> 00:09:18,981
<i>You don't want to believe that she's,</i>

157
00:09:19,941 --> 00:09:22,701
<i>something's happened to her really bad.</i>

158
00:09:22,781 --> 00:09:26,861
<i>But eventually you sort of think, hmm.</i>

159
00:09:26,941 --> 00:09:29,901
<i>She must, something's
really gone wrong here.</i>

160
00:09:29,981 --> 00:09:33,181
<i>Your hopes then die a bit.</i>

161
00:09:33,261 --> 00:09:37,461
<i>But you've still got to
try and keep positive.</i>

162
00:09:38,701 --> 00:09:43,381
<i>Were you surprised by the press interest</i>

163
00:09:43,461 --> 00:09:46,701
<i>in Suzy's disappearance?</i>

164
00:09:46,781 --> 00:09:49,261
<i>I was totally surprised.</i>

165
00:09:49,341 --> 00:09:50,621
<i>You know, the amount of press you think,</i>

166
00:09:50,701 --> 00:09:53,301
<i>oh they're bound to...
someone's bound to tell you</i>

167
00:09:53,381 --> 00:09:55,701
<i>that they saw her get into a car</i>

168
00:09:55,781 --> 00:09:57,101
<i>or something like this.</i>

169
00:09:57,181 --> 00:10:00,941
<i>And of course, nothing sort of appeared.</i>

170
00:10:01,381 --> 00:10:03,581
<i>So it just goes on and on.</i>

171
00:10:04,101 --> 00:10:05,981
<i>When someone disappears</i>

172
00:10:06,061 --> 00:10:08,661
<i>you don't have a sort of</i>

173
00:10:08,741 --> 00:10:11,581
<i>anywhere to remember as at.</i>

174
00:10:11,661 --> 00:10:13,101
<i>You know, she's somewhere out there</i>

175
00:10:13,181 --> 00:10:15,821
<i>and we don't have
anywhere to remember her.</i>

176
00:10:15,901 --> 00:10:20,621
<i>We don't have a grave or
didn't have anything like that.</i>

177
00:10:20,701 --> 00:10:23,461
<i>It would be great to have a place</i>

178
00:10:23,541 --> 00:10:28,541
<i>for where we could bury
her as such, you know.</i>

179
00:10:28,781 --> 00:10:33,381
<i>I would want her somewhere
that we could put her.</i>

180
00:10:33,461 --> 00:10:35,301
<i>So, that's how I feel.</i>

181
00:10:49,261 --> 00:10:51,221
<i>[Emilia] How was Richard?</i>

182
00:10:51,301 --> 00:10:53,741
<i>Well, I'm glad I came to see Richard</i>

183
00:10:53,821 --> 00:10:54,741
<i>because for one thing</i>

184
00:10:54,821 --> 00:10:58,381
<i>it reminds me about why we're doing this.</i>

185
00:10:58,461 --> 00:10:59,301
<i>Of course.</i>

186
00:10:59,381 --> 00:11:01,701
<i>They would like to find Suzy's body</i>

187
00:11:01,781 --> 00:11:05,981
<i>so that they have some
place that they controlled</i>

188
00:11:06,061 --> 00:11:08,941
<i>where they could remember their sister.</i>

189
00:11:09,021 --> 00:11:10,021
<i>Of course.</i>

190
00:11:12,621 --> 00:11:15,141
<i>So where did we go from here?</i>

191
00:11:15,701 --> 00:11:18,701
<i>[suspenseful music]</i>

192
00:11:25,941 --> 00:11:27,901
<i>Let's take a look at all the suspects</i>

193
00:11:27,981 --> 00:11:31,861
<i>in Suzy Lamplugh's abduction and murder.</i>

194
00:11:32,541 --> 00:11:36,221
<i>Michael Sams, who is
serving a life sentence</i>

195
00:11:36,301 --> 00:11:39,621
<i>for the murder of teenager
Julie Dart in 1991.</i>

196
00:11:39,701 --> 00:11:43,261
<i>And the kidnap of Birmingham
estate agent Stephanie Slater</i>

197
00:11:43,341 --> 00:11:44,941
<i>in 1992.</i>

198
00:11:45,021 --> 00:11:47,941
<i>Yeah, so obviously it's the
mention of Stephanie Slater.</i>

199
00:11:48,021 --> 00:11:50,501
<i>As soon as you say estate agent you get--</i>

200
00:11:50,581 --> 00:11:51,341
<i>Red flags.</i>

201
00:11:51,421 --> 00:11:53,941
<i>That rings alarm bells for people.</i>

202
00:11:54,021 --> 00:11:56,861
<i>Crucially in the 1970's</i>

203
00:11:56,941 --> 00:12:01,621
<i>Sam's had his right leg
amputated because he had cancer.</i>

204
00:12:01,701 --> 00:12:03,661
<i>Remember we've got all
this witness testimony</i>

205
00:12:03,741 --> 00:12:05,461
<i>that describes Mr. Kipper.</i>

206
00:12:05,541 --> 00:12:08,421
<i>Nobody has ever said that Mr. Kipper</i>

207
00:12:08,501 --> 00:12:10,701
<i>was walking with a limp.</i>

208
00:12:11,061 --> 00:12:12,781
<i>So I think we can rule him out.</i>

209
00:12:12,861 --> 00:12:13,701
<i>Okay.</i>

210
00:12:16,061 --> 00:12:17,421
<i>Steve Wright.</i>

211
00:12:17,501 --> 00:12:19,341
<i>He is serving a life sentence</i>

212
00:12:19,421 --> 00:12:21,661
<i>for the murder of five women in Suffolk.</i>

213
00:12:21,741 --> 00:12:25,861
<i>And he worked on the QE2
with Suzy in the 1980s.</i>

214
00:12:25,941 --> 00:12:26,941
<i>Yeah, you're quite right.</i>

215
00:12:27,021 --> 00:12:28,581
<i>He knew Susie Lamplugh,</i>

216
00:12:28,661 --> 00:12:32,701
<i>who was also working on
the ship at the same time.</i>

217
00:12:32,781 --> 00:12:35,301
<i>And indeed even more significantly</i>

218
00:12:35,381 --> 00:12:38,981
<i>at one stage Wright's ex wife claimed</i>

219
00:12:39,061 --> 00:12:41,021
<i>that he was on shore leave</i>

220
00:12:41,101 --> 00:12:42,941
<i>on the day that Suzy went missing.</i>

221
00:12:43,021 --> 00:12:46,021
<i>Now I know that immediately
brings him into the frame</i>

222
00:12:46,101 --> 00:12:49,341
<i>but when the police looked
at Quenard's records</i>

223
00:12:49,421 --> 00:12:51,541
<i>they were able to establish that in fact</i>

224
00:12:51,621 --> 00:12:55,581
<i>he was working, he was on
board ship on that day.</i>

225
00:12:55,661 --> 00:13:00,861
<i>And therefore, I don't think
he's a legitimate suspect.</i>

226
00:13:00,941 --> 00:13:01,781
<i>Okay.</i>

227
00:13:02,861 --> 00:13:07,581
<i>There is one other unnamed
guy who briefly dated Suzy</i>

228
00:13:07,661 --> 00:13:09,501
<i>after meeting her in a wine bar.</i>

229
00:13:09,581 --> 00:13:12,181
<i>And apparently he lived on Shorells Road.</i>

230
00:13:12,261 --> 00:13:14,021
<i>And so again, we've got a few red flags.</i>

231
00:13:14,101 --> 00:13:15,341
<i>A few alarm bells.</i>

232
00:13:15,421 --> 00:13:18,901
<i>Shorrels Road and he had
previously dated Suzy.</i>

233
00:13:18,981 --> 00:13:21,101
<i>But again, when the police looked</i>

234
00:13:21,181 --> 00:13:23,781
<i>at his movements on the
day that she disappears</i>

235
00:13:23,861 --> 00:13:27,181
<i>he has an alibi that's water tight.</i>

236
00:13:27,261 --> 00:13:31,181
<i>And so all of that brings
us back to the prime suspect</i>

237
00:13:31,261 --> 00:13:33,621
<i>that the met police themselves name,</i>

238
00:13:33,701 --> 00:13:35,701
<i>which is John Cannan.</i>

239
00:13:39,901 --> 00:13:43,221
<i>Let's look at what we know about him.</i>

240
00:13:43,341 --> 00:13:45,261
<i>He's currently in prison</i>

241
00:13:45,341 --> 00:13:49,741
<i>for the abduction and
murder of Shirley Banks</i>

242
00:13:49,821 --> 00:13:53,741
<i>who he abducted and
killed in October, 1987,</i>

243
00:13:53,821 --> 00:13:56,021
<i>which is how many months
after Suzy disappeared?</i>

244
00:13:56,101 --> 00:13:56,861
<i>15 months.</i>

245
00:13:56,941 --> 00:13:57,901
<i>15 months, now</i>

246
00:13:57,981 --> 00:14:02,861
<i>her body isn't found until April 1988</i>

247
00:14:02,941 --> 00:14:04,541
<i>You know what really strikes me</i>

248
00:14:04,621 --> 00:14:07,981
<i>is how similar Suzy and Shirley looked.</i>

249
00:14:10,541 --> 00:14:12,061
<i>Don't you think?</i>

250
00:14:13,381 --> 00:14:15,461
<i>It's like he had a type.</i>

251
00:14:17,781 --> 00:14:19,701
<i>We also know that he was convicted</i>

252
00:14:19,781 --> 00:14:23,061
<i>of robbery and rape in 1981.</i>

253
00:14:23,141 --> 00:14:26,821
<i>He went into a knitwear shop,
robbed it at knife point,</i>

254
00:14:26,901 --> 00:14:31,741
<i>and he raped the 37 year
old pregnant shop owner</i>

255
00:14:31,821 --> 00:14:35,021
<i>in front of her mother
and 17 month old son.</i>

256
00:14:35,101 --> 00:14:37,621
<i>This is a particularly
nasty offense, isn't it?</i>

257
00:14:37,701 --> 00:14:38,621
<i>Truly awful.</i>

258
00:14:38,701 --> 00:14:40,421
<i>And he was given an eight year sentence.</i>

259
00:14:40,501 --> 00:14:41,581
<i>He served five,</i>

260
00:14:41,661 --> 00:14:42,941
<i>and then for the last six months</i>

261
00:14:43,021 --> 00:14:45,421
<i>he was sent to a prison release hostel</i>

262
00:14:45,501 --> 00:14:46,701
<i>at Wormword Scrubs,</i>

263
00:14:46,781 --> 00:14:51,301
<i>which is 4.3 miles from where Suzy worked,</i>

264
00:14:51,381 --> 00:14:53,181
<i>and which gave him ample opportunity</i>

265
00:14:53,261 --> 00:14:56,981
<i>to go to wine bars, to chat up women,</i>

266
00:14:57,061 --> 00:14:59,981
<i>which he actually boasted
about to his workmates.</i>

267
00:15:00,061 --> 00:15:03,221
<i>And allegedly one of them
was called Crocodile Tears</i>

268
00:15:03,301 --> 00:15:09,061
<i>which was opposite Sturges
estate agents where Susie worked.</i>

269
00:15:11,421 --> 00:15:14,701
<i>And there are other pieces
of circumstantial evidence</i>

270
00:15:14,781 --> 00:15:18,981
<i>that linked Cannan to
Suzy's disappearance.</i>

271
00:15:19,581 --> 00:15:22,781
<i>Look at the photo fit of Mr. Kipper.</i>

272
00:15:23,341 --> 00:15:26,781
<i>How that resembles this
photograph of John Cannan.</i>

273
00:15:26,861 --> 00:15:29,741
<i>[Emilia] Yeah, they're
so similar, aren't they?</i>

274
00:15:29,821 --> 00:15:30,941
<i>The other thing to remember</i>

275
00:15:31,021 --> 00:15:34,221
<i>that connects Cannan
to Suzy's disappearance</i>

276
00:15:34,301 --> 00:15:37,741
<i>is that when he is actually
arrested for the murder</i>

277
00:15:37,821 --> 00:15:38,901
<i>of Shirley Banks,</i>

278
00:15:38,981 --> 00:15:42,261
<i>he was driving a black BMW,</i>

279
00:15:43,981 --> 00:15:45,781
<i>which of course crops up in several</i>

280
00:15:45,861 --> 00:15:47,021
<i>of the witness testimonies</i>

281
00:15:47,101 --> 00:15:50,541
<i>about the day that Suzy disappeared.</i>

282
00:15:55,061 --> 00:15:56,821
<i>No, I'm listening.</i>

283
00:15:57,901 --> 00:15:59,421
<i>Hang on, hang on.</i>

284
00:16:00,301 --> 00:16:02,381
<i>Yeah, we're on our way.</i>

285
00:16:09,781 --> 00:16:12,261
<i>One of my contacts has got us all</i>

286
00:16:12,341 --> 00:16:15,381
<i>of the original police
tapes when John Cannan</i>

287
00:16:15,461 --> 00:16:17,341
<i>was interviewed while in prison.</i>

288
00:16:17,421 --> 00:16:18,341
<i>[Emilia] That could give us an insight</i>

289
00:16:18,421 --> 00:16:19,181
<i>into Cannan's character.</i>

290
00:16:19,261 --> 00:16:21,061
<i>[David] Well his character perhaps</i>

291
00:16:21,141 --> 00:16:24,141
<i>but not necessarily the murder.</i>

292
00:16:32,221 --> 00:16:33,781
<i>[Interviewer] We are in the east</i>

293
00:16:33,861 --> 00:16:36,341
<i>at Hammersmith Police Station.</i>

294
00:16:36,421 --> 00:16:39,461
<i>I am interviewing people
who are suspected of murder.</i>

295
00:16:39,541 --> 00:16:40,661
<i>Yes, sir.</i>

296
00:16:40,741 --> 00:16:43,661
<i>It's John David Guys Cannan.</i>

297
00:16:43,741 --> 00:16:46,541
<i>[Interviewer] Thank you.</i>

298
00:16:46,621 --> 00:16:48,541
<i>Welcome to my world.</i>

299
00:16:48,621 --> 00:16:50,781
<i>This is what it's like interviewing people</i>

300
00:16:50,861 --> 00:16:54,621
<i>who are suspected of murder</i>

301
00:16:54,701 --> 00:16:59,341
<i>and in his case, already
been convicted of murder.</i>

302
00:17:00,621 --> 00:17:02,301
<i>So do you think he's decided</i>

303
00:17:02,381 --> 00:17:05,661
<i>about how he's going to
present himself straight away?</i>

304
00:17:05,741 --> 00:17:09,101
<i>Totally, the glasses on his head,</i>

305
00:17:09,181 --> 00:17:11,301
<i>the color turned up,</i>

306
00:17:11,381 --> 00:17:15,141
<i>the John David Guys Cannan, certainly.</i>

307
00:17:15,221 --> 00:17:17,181
<i>You know, he's clearly thought</i>

308
00:17:17,261 --> 00:17:21,181
<i>about who he's going to be
in this particular interview.</i>

309
00:17:21,261 --> 00:17:24,621
<i>Does that fit with a man who can take</i>

310
00:17:24,701 --> 00:17:28,141
<i>on the character of Mr. Kipper?</i>

311
00:17:28,221 --> 00:17:31,021
<i>-Totally.
-[eerie music]</i>

312
00:17:32,501 --> 00:17:36,221
<i>I don't really see, as
he's currently saying,</i>

313
00:17:36,301 --> 00:17:38,941
<i>what else there is to be said.</i>

314
00:17:39,021 --> 00:17:41,421
<i>Mrs. Lamplugh thinks I've done it.</i>

315
00:17:41,501 --> 00:17:44,181
<i>She's accused me of doing it.</i>

316
00:17:44,261 --> 00:17:46,861
<i>I've answered every
question you've put to me.</i>

317
00:17:46,941 --> 00:17:50,581
<i>I've invited Mrs. Lamplugh
herself up to the prison</i>

318
00:17:50,661 --> 00:17:52,941
<i>to have a quiet word to me.</i>

319
00:17:53,021 --> 00:17:55,541
<i>And I've said I'll go on
the lie detector test.</i>

320
00:17:55,621 --> 00:17:59,181
<i>The truth drug or anything
you wanna put me on.</i>

321
00:17:59,261 --> 00:18:01,341
<i>[David] What did you pick up?</i>

322
00:18:01,421 --> 00:18:03,181
<i>He has no empathy for her.</i>

323
00:18:03,261 --> 00:18:04,701
<i>He blames her.</i>

324
00:18:04,781 --> 00:18:09,581
<i>Think about it as well as
performing a distancing effect.</i>

325
00:18:09,661 --> 00:18:13,141
<i>So he uses her title, Mrs. Lamplugh.</i>

326
00:18:13,221 --> 00:18:16,461
<i>Keeps her one stage removed from him.</i>

327
00:18:16,541 --> 00:18:18,221
<i>And then this whole thing about</i>

328
00:18:18,301 --> 00:18:19,781
<i>he's trying to be helpful</i>

329
00:18:19,861 --> 00:18:22,301
<i>I'll take the truth drug.</i>

330
00:18:22,381 --> 00:18:23,661
<i>I'll go in the lie detector test.</i>

331
00:18:23,741 --> 00:18:25,181
<i>But why does he do that?</i>

332
00:18:25,261 --> 00:18:28,541
<i>Well because it has no evidentiary value.</i>

333
00:18:28,621 --> 00:18:30,541
<i>He knows that kind of evidence</i>

334
00:18:30,621 --> 00:18:34,181
<i>from either the truth drug
or the lie detector tests</i>

335
00:18:34,261 --> 00:18:36,381
<i>can't be admissible in an English court.</i>

336
00:18:36,461 --> 00:18:38,021
<i>So it's all just smoke and mirrors?</i>

337
00:18:38,101 --> 00:18:38,861
<i>Smoke and mirrors.</i>

338
00:18:38,941 --> 00:18:40,701
<i>It's obfuscation.</i>

339
00:18:43,541 --> 00:18:45,661
<i>Might've done many
things wrong in my life.</i>

340
00:18:45,741 --> 00:18:48,701
<i>Things that, believe me,
I'm genuinely sorry for.</i>

341
00:18:48,781 --> 00:18:50,381
<i>And one or two I haven't been caught for.</i>

342
00:18:50,461 --> 00:18:52,901
<i>Can you play that again?</i>

343
00:18:52,981 --> 00:18:54,421
<i>And one or two I haven't been caught for.</i>

344
00:18:54,501 --> 00:18:57,661
<i>One or two things that he
hasn't been caught for?</i>

345
00:18:57,741 --> 00:18:58,621
<i>Why does he do that?</i>

346
00:18:58,701 --> 00:19:00,621
<i>Well, in my experience,</i>

347
00:19:00,701 --> 00:19:03,461
<i>the truth often slips out.</i>

348
00:19:03,541 --> 00:19:07,061
<i>Often they prove to be the authentic self</i>

349
00:19:07,141 --> 00:19:10,101
<i>talking about crime.</i>

350
00:19:10,181 --> 00:19:12,861
<i>What happens if he didn't do it?</i>

351
00:19:12,941 --> 00:19:14,741
<i>And he is saying, I didn't do it.</i>

352
00:19:14,821 --> 00:19:16,421
<i>I have no connection to this.</i>

353
00:19:16,501 --> 00:19:18,781
<i>The role of the police in those situations</i>

354
00:19:18,861 --> 00:19:21,421
<i>is to find pieces of evidence,</i>

355
00:19:21,501 --> 00:19:23,301
<i>albeit circumstantial pieces,</i>

356
00:19:23,381 --> 00:19:25,301
<i>that can be cross-referenced</i>

357
00:19:25,381 --> 00:19:28,061
<i>against other verifiable sources.</i>

358
00:19:28,141 --> 00:19:31,901
<i>That's how you progress
this kind of interview</i>

359
00:19:31,981 --> 00:19:34,501
<i>into being able to make a charge.</i>

360
00:19:34,581 --> 00:19:35,701
<i>What I don't get is</i>

361
00:19:35,781 --> 00:19:36,941
<i>with everything we know</i>

362
00:19:37,021 --> 00:19:38,741
<i>and everything that the police know</i>

363
00:19:38,821 --> 00:19:43,501
<i>how come Cannan hasn't been
charged with the murder of Suzy?</i>

364
00:19:43,581 --> 00:19:45,661
<i>[suspenseful music]</i>

365
00:19:45,741 --> 00:19:49,421
<i>I'm trying as I've always
tried for 12 years.</i>

366
00:19:49,501 --> 00:19:51,061
<i>To try and help you.</i>

367
00:19:51,141 --> 00:19:52,861
<i>To try and help persuade you</i>

368
00:19:52,941 --> 00:19:54,581
<i>that it wasn't me.</i>

369
00:19:59,621 --> 00:20:02,381
<i>And I've said I'll go on
the lie detector test,</i>

370
00:20:02,461 --> 00:20:05,181
<i>the truth drug, anything
you would want it to be.</i>

371
00:20:05,261 --> 00:20:08,141
<i>And then it's not evidentiary.</i>

372
00:20:10,421 --> 00:20:15,421
<i>-[dramatic music]
-[phone dialing]</i>

373
00:20:18,701 --> 00:20:19,861
<i>I've managed to get my hands</i>

374
00:20:19,941 --> 00:20:23,381
<i>on an internal police report from 2000.</i>

375
00:20:23,461 --> 00:20:26,541
<i>It's a damning review of
the original investigation.</i>

376
00:20:26,621 --> 00:20:31,621
<i>And it says that Cannan wasn't
treated as the chief suspect</i>

377
00:20:31,741 --> 00:20:34,981
<i>because the lead officer had
fallen out with Suzy's mum</i>

378
00:20:35,061 --> 00:20:39,101
<i>believing she was behind
media leaks about the case.</i>

379
00:20:39,181 --> 00:20:41,501
<i>I fixed a meeting with the
senior investigating officer</i>

380
00:20:41,581 --> 00:20:43,541
<i>in the second investigation.</i>

381
00:20:43,621 --> 00:20:45,421
<i>Speak to you in a bit, yeah.</i>

382
00:20:45,501 --> 00:20:47,821
<i>Yeah, see you later, bye.</i>

383
00:20:58,061 --> 00:21:00,901
<i>Why was Jim Cannan never
treated as a suspect</i>

384
00:21:00,981 --> 00:21:03,061
<i>in the first investigation?</i>

385
00:21:03,141 --> 00:21:04,341
<i>Good question.</i>

386
00:21:04,421 --> 00:21:05,701
<i>I don't know the answer to that</i>

387
00:21:05,781 --> 00:21:08,101
<i>because I never made that decision.</i>

388
00:21:08,181 --> 00:21:11,621
<i>All I can say is certainly
when I re-investigated</i>

389
00:21:11,701 --> 00:21:13,381
<i>the Lamplugh case</i>

390
00:21:13,461 --> 00:21:17,821
<i>John Cannan became the only prime suspect.</i>

391
00:21:17,901 --> 00:21:22,861
<i>Why he wasn't interviewed
in the first investigation</i>

392
00:21:22,941 --> 00:21:24,021
<i>I don't know.</i>

393
00:21:24,101 --> 00:21:26,181
<i>Why wasn't he put in an ID parade?</i>

394
00:21:26,261 --> 00:21:27,501
<i>I don't know.</i>

395
00:21:27,581 --> 00:21:31,421
<i>Why some of the key
witnesses weren't spoken to,</i>

396
00:21:31,501 --> 00:21:32,541
<i>I don't know.</i>

397
00:21:32,621 --> 00:21:35,741
<i>And why basically
opportunities were missed?</i>

398
00:21:35,821 --> 00:21:37,021
<i>I don't know.</i>

399
00:21:37,901 --> 00:21:39,381
<i>But I can't get my head around</i>

400
00:21:39,461 --> 00:21:41,701
<i>the thought process behind it.</i>

401
00:21:41,781 --> 00:21:44,341
<i>Certainly there was sufficient
evidence back in '86</i>

402
00:21:44,421 --> 00:21:47,861
<i>for Cannan to be treated as a suspect.</i>

403
00:21:50,061 --> 00:21:52,781
<i>Why has Cannan never been charged?</i>

404
00:21:52,861 --> 00:21:54,101
<i>Very good question.</i>

405
00:21:54,181 --> 00:21:55,981
<i>Myself and colleagues submitted a report</i>

406
00:21:56,061 --> 00:21:59,781
<i>to the crown prosecution service in 2003,</i>

407
00:22:00,781 --> 00:22:03,661
<i>but in order for a prosecution to proceed</i>

408
00:22:03,741 --> 00:22:06,181
<i>we needed to convince a judge</i>

409
00:22:06,261 --> 00:22:10,101
<i>that there had been no abuse
of process on two counts.</i>

410
00:22:10,181 --> 00:22:13,581
<i>One, he felt that Cannan had been tried</i>

411
00:22:13,661 --> 00:22:15,781
<i>and convicted by the media.</i>

412
00:22:15,861 --> 00:22:18,061
<i>And you can't really argue with that</i>

413
00:22:18,141 --> 00:22:20,101
<i>because there's been massive,</i>

414
00:22:20,181 --> 00:22:23,981
<i>and continues to be massive
media coverage of this incident.</i>

415
00:22:24,061 --> 00:22:25,261
<i>And the second was</i>

416
00:22:25,341 --> 00:22:30,301
<i>that the police either
had ignored, mislaid,</i>

417
00:22:30,381 --> 00:22:32,941
<i>or did not use clues that they had</i>

418
00:22:33,021 --> 00:22:36,661
<i>in the original investigation in 1986.</i>

419
00:22:38,221 --> 00:22:41,341
<i>In your opinion, did Joan Cannan abduct</i>

420
00:22:41,421 --> 00:22:43,101
<i>and kill Suzy Lamplugh?</i>

421
00:22:43,181 --> 00:22:46,901
<i>In my opinion John Cannan is the only</i>

422
00:22:46,981 --> 00:22:48,221
<i>and he's the prime suspect</i>

423
00:22:48,301 --> 00:22:52,621
<i>for the abduction and
murder of Suzy Lamplugh.</i>

424
00:22:55,821 --> 00:22:58,301
<i>Jim said that Cannan
wasn't treated as a suspect</i>

425
00:22:58,381 --> 00:23:00,501
<i>in the original investigation.</i>

426
00:23:00,581 --> 00:23:02,301
<i>That the police didn't caution him</i>

427
00:23:02,381 --> 00:23:04,821
<i>before they interviewed him in custody,</i>

428
00:23:04,901 --> 00:23:07,981
<i>that he wasn't put in ID parades,</i>

429
00:23:08,061 --> 00:23:10,301
<i>that they didn't follow
up on key witnesses,</i>

430
00:23:10,381 --> 00:23:12,301
<i>and they didn't check his alibi.</i>

431
00:23:12,381 --> 00:23:15,541
<i>Oh, this sounds really muddled
and confused, doesn't it?</i>

432
00:23:15,621 --> 00:23:18,621
<i>The CPS said that they weren't
going to take him to trial</i>

433
00:23:18,701 --> 00:23:20,621
<i>because of lack of evidence.</i>

434
00:23:20,701 --> 00:23:22,101
<i>Proper process wasn't followed.</i>

435
00:23:22,181 --> 00:23:22,941
<i>And they felt</i>

436
00:23:23,021 --> 00:23:25,781
<i>that he did experience
trial by media already.</i>

437
00:23:25,861 --> 00:23:27,861
<i>Trial by media.</i>

438
00:23:27,941 --> 00:23:31,101
<i>That's what he's going to accuse
us of doing as well, I bet.</i>

439
00:23:31,181 --> 00:23:32,021
<i>Exactly.</i>

440
00:23:33,461 --> 00:23:35,901
<i>Can he ever be tried for it?</i>

441
00:23:36,061 --> 00:23:37,901
<i>And another thing Jim suggested speaking</i>

442
00:23:37,981 --> 00:23:39,061
<i>to a couple of people</i>

443
00:23:39,141 --> 00:23:42,301
<i>who had come to him with
some new evidence recently.</i>

444
00:23:42,381 --> 00:23:45,301
<i>But he was cautious and said</i>

445
00:23:45,381 --> 00:23:47,221
<i>that they might not want to be identified</i>

446
00:23:47,301 --> 00:23:49,061
<i>if we spoke to them.</i>

447
00:23:49,341 --> 00:23:53,781
<i>Well I'm always interested
in new information.</i>

448
00:24:05,661 --> 00:24:07,661
<i>[Emilia] He was suggesting
we write to John Cannan</i>

449
00:24:07,741 --> 00:24:09,341
<i>and ask him for a meeting.</i>

450
00:24:09,421 --> 00:24:11,861
<i>I am, that's exactly what I'm asking.</i>

451
00:24:11,941 --> 00:24:13,821
<i>Why would we do that?</i>

452
00:24:14,701 --> 00:24:17,741
<i>Well, by asking for a meeting,</i>

453
00:24:17,821 --> 00:24:22,501
<i>we can put to him those pieces
of circumstantial evidence</i>

454
00:24:22,581 --> 00:24:25,661
<i>that connect him to the
story of Suzy Lamplugh</i>

455
00:24:25,741 --> 00:24:27,181
<i>and ask for an explanation.</i>

456
00:24:27,261 --> 00:24:29,341
<i>But is that right to be giving him a voice</i>

457
00:24:29,421 --> 00:24:31,421
<i>given what he's done?</i>

458
00:24:31,741 --> 00:24:35,781
<i>Well, I suppose if I was the
family of a murder victim</i>

459
00:24:35,861 --> 00:24:37,581
<i>I'd say it wasn't.</i>

460
00:24:37,661 --> 00:24:38,541
<i>Right</i>

461
00:24:38,621 --> 00:24:43,181
<i>But my life is about investigations.</i>

462
00:24:43,261 --> 00:24:46,501
<i>And I know that the
only way that I can ever</i>

463
00:24:46,581 --> 00:24:51,581
<i>progress an investigation is
by talking to that person.</i>

464
00:24:53,621 --> 00:24:55,661
<i>So we could ask him what he remembers</i>

465
00:24:55,741 --> 00:24:59,821
<i>about his experience of
life in London at the time,</i>

466
00:24:59,901 --> 00:25:02,541
<i>the social scene and Fulham maybe,</i>

467
00:25:02,621 --> 00:25:04,461
<i>where we know that he would hang out</i>

468
00:25:04,541 --> 00:25:08,341
<i>Perhaps he encountered Suzy by accident.</i>

469
00:25:08,421 --> 00:25:11,421
<i>Could get us closer to the truth.</i>

470
00:25:13,701 --> 00:25:15,541
<i>Yeah, I'm after a favour,</i>

471
00:25:15,621 --> 00:25:16,781
<i>about a Cat A.</i>

472
00:25:18,421 --> 00:25:20,021
<i>Yep, okay.</i>

473
00:25:20,101 --> 00:25:23,221
<i>C-A-N-N-A-N.</i>

474
00:25:24,661 --> 00:25:25,981
<i>Okay, thanks.</i>

475
00:25:31,621 --> 00:25:34,621
<i>[suspenseful music]</i>

476
00:25:41,901 --> 00:25:44,501
<i>We've had a response from John Cannan.</i>

477
00:25:44,581 --> 00:25:48,021
<i>We can't see him, but he's written to us.</i>

478
00:25:48,101 --> 00:25:50,101
<i>[David] I'm on my way.</i>

479
00:25:52,221 --> 00:25:53,981
<i>Thank you for your letter.</i>

480
00:25:54,061 --> 00:25:56,741
<i>The problem as I see it is this.</i>

481
00:25:56,821 --> 00:25:59,261
<i>I was not involved in any
way in the disappearance</i>

482
00:25:59,341 --> 00:26:00,141
<i>of Miss Lamplugh.</i>

483
00:26:00,221 --> 00:26:03,981
<i>So I really don't know
what I can tell you.</i>

484
00:26:04,501 --> 00:26:06,541
<i>So we wanted to give him a voice.</i>

485
00:26:06,621 --> 00:26:09,421
<i>We wanted to get him to address himself</i>

486
00:26:09,501 --> 00:26:11,861
<i>to some of the circumstantial evidence,</i>

487
00:26:11,941 --> 00:26:15,581
<i>but he says I never met Lamplugh</i>

488
00:26:18,221 --> 00:26:20,141
<i>One of the things that we asked him about</i>

489
00:26:20,221 --> 00:26:22,141
<i>was the Fulham social scene</i>

490
00:26:22,221 --> 00:26:25,061
<i>where he might have
acidentally met Suzy Lamplugh.</i>

491
00:26:25,141 --> 00:26:27,181
<i>Yeah he says, "Cannot tell
you what the social scene</i>

492
00:26:27,261 --> 00:26:30,461
<i>in London was like, as I was
only there for six months</i>

493
00:26:30,541 --> 00:26:32,061
<i>and was in a low paid job</i>

494
00:26:32,141 --> 00:26:35,461
<i>earning around 300 pounds per week.</i>

495
00:26:36,101 --> 00:26:37,581
<i>I lived in a hostel</i>

496
00:26:37,661 --> 00:26:40,341
<i>and didn't enjoy a
large circle of friends.</i>

497
00:26:40,421 --> 00:26:44,661
<i>What pubs or eating places
I occasionally frequented</i>

498
00:26:44,741 --> 00:26:47,141
<i>were principally local."</i>

499
00:26:48,021 --> 00:26:51,701
<i>That completely divorces him
from the Fulham social scene</i>

500
00:26:51,781 --> 00:26:53,901
<i>of the 1980s, doesn't it?</i>

501
00:26:53,981 --> 00:26:57,261
<i>I'm not a yuppie, is what
he's saying in this passage.</i>

502
00:26:57,341 --> 00:26:59,501
<i>But look at one of these passages.</i>

503
00:26:59,581 --> 00:27:03,541
<i>"I drove a smart, black BMW 316.</i>

504
00:27:04,781 --> 00:27:09,981
<i>I had beautiful clothes and
in those days girls galore."</i>

505
00:27:10,621 --> 00:27:13,941
<i>That is a completely
polar opposite description</i>

506
00:27:14,021 --> 00:27:16,701
<i>to how he said that he was living</i>

507
00:27:16,781 --> 00:27:19,981
<i>and what his life was like
in previous correspondence.</i>

508
00:27:20,061 --> 00:27:22,661
<i>This description seems to connect him</i>

509
00:27:22,741 --> 00:27:24,901
<i>and there a lot of similarities</i>

510
00:27:24,981 --> 00:27:27,461
<i>between what's being described here</i>

511
00:27:27,541 --> 00:27:29,701
<i>and the MO of Mr. Kipper.</i>

512
00:27:29,781 --> 00:27:31,861
<i>But of course in this passage</i>

513
00:27:31,941 --> 00:27:33,901
<i>he's also lying to us.</i>

514
00:27:33,981 --> 00:27:38,301
<i>"I did not need to abduct
women," exclamation mark.</i>

515
00:27:38,381 --> 00:27:42,781
<i>But he was convicted of
abducting and murdering</i>

516
00:27:42,861 --> 00:27:44,501
<i>Shirley Banks, so</i>

517
00:27:45,181 --> 00:27:46,501
<i>a complete lie.</i>

518
00:27:46,581 --> 00:27:48,541
<i>We're trying to give him a voice,</i>

519
00:27:48,621 --> 00:27:52,061
<i>and having done so I
think I would now like us</i>

520
00:27:52,141 --> 00:27:54,381
<i>to move on back into the criminology.</i>

521
00:27:54,461 --> 00:27:56,701
<i>I'd like us to think about</i>

522
00:27:56,781 --> 00:27:59,781
<i>the abduction and murder of Shirley Banks</i>

523
00:27:59,861 --> 00:28:04,021
<i>and how her body was disposed of by Cannan</i>

524
00:28:04,101 --> 00:28:07,341
<i>after he had killed her to see if that</i>

525
00:28:07,421 --> 00:28:10,741
<i>might be the key to
unlocking what happened</i>

526
00:28:10,821 --> 00:28:13,021
<i>to Suzy Lamplugh in 1986.</i>

527
00:28:19,581 --> 00:28:22,501
<i>[mysterious music]</i>

528
00:28:58,061 --> 00:29:00,061
<i>It's eerie, isn't it?</i>

529
00:29:01,141 --> 00:29:03,221
<i>Standing here where John Cannan disposed</i>

530
00:29:03,301 --> 00:29:05,621
<i>of Shirley Banks's body.</i>

531
00:29:09,101 --> 00:29:12,141
<i>She was lying face down in the ditch.</i>

532
00:29:12,221 --> 00:29:13,821
<i>Her skull had been fractured.</i>

533
00:29:13,901 --> 00:29:16,661
<i>She was naked and she
could only be identified</i>

534
00:29:16,741 --> 00:29:19,701
<i>by the jewelry that she was wearing.</i>

535
00:29:19,781 --> 00:29:22,501
<i>It just can't be a coincidence, can it,</i>

536
00:29:22,581 --> 00:29:25,181
<i>that he disposed of her
and in a place called</i>

537
00:29:25,261 --> 00:29:26,381
<i>Dead Woman's Ditch.</i>

538
00:29:26,461 --> 00:29:29,021
<i>Well, as far as I'm concerned,</i>

539
00:29:29,981 --> 00:29:31,181
<i>there's no coincidence</i>

540
00:29:31,261 --> 00:29:33,021
<i>when we're dealing with murder.</i>

541
00:29:33,101 --> 00:29:36,981
<i>He's chosen the site very deliberately.</i>

542
00:29:37,061 --> 00:29:38,661
<i>He's playing a game.</i>

543
00:29:38,741 --> 00:29:40,941
<i>And what does that tell us about him?</i>

544
00:29:41,021 --> 00:29:44,541
<i>He likes to think of
himself as one step ahead.</i>

545
00:29:44,621 --> 00:29:48,501
<i>Catch me if you can is
really what he's saying.</i>

546
00:29:48,581 --> 00:29:50,701
<i>So he's playing games with the police?</i>

547
00:29:50,781 --> 00:29:51,541
<i>Yeah, absolutely.</i>

548
00:29:51,621 --> 00:29:53,821
<i>We've seen him interviewed by the police.</i>

549
00:29:53,901 --> 00:29:55,341
<i>We saw what he was like</i>

550
00:29:55,421 --> 00:29:58,541
<i>when he was in an interview situation.</i>

551
00:29:58,621 --> 00:30:03,141
<i>Effectively he was like an
upstanding member of the public.</i>

552
00:30:03,221 --> 00:30:04,261
<i>When we know he wasn't.</i>

553
00:30:04,341 --> 00:30:05,661
<i>And he even said</i>

554
00:30:05,741 --> 00:30:08,821
<i>that there were crimes that
he hadn't been caught for yet.</i>

555
00:30:08,901 --> 00:30:11,901
<i>Which crimes was he alluding to?</i>

556
00:30:13,661 --> 00:30:14,541
<i>I think there's quite a lot</i>

557
00:30:14,621 --> 00:30:16,901
<i>we can tell about Cannan</i>

558
00:30:16,981 --> 00:30:19,181
<i>from what he does to Shirley Banks.</i>

559
00:30:19,261 --> 00:30:22,981
<i>We know that he abducted her
on the 7th of October 1987.</i>

560
00:30:23,061 --> 00:30:25,421
<i>And we know that she called into work</i>

561
00:30:25,501 --> 00:30:28,221
<i>on the 8th of October and
said that she was ill.</i>

562
00:30:28,301 --> 00:30:31,181
<i>So he's kept her for a whole night alive.</i>

563
00:30:31,261 --> 00:30:33,781
<i>Yeah, he likes to be with his victim.</i>

564
00:30:33,861 --> 00:30:35,821
<i>And can you imagine what
it must have been like</i>

565
00:30:35,901 --> 00:30:37,661
<i>for Shirley Banks that day?</i>

566
00:30:37,741 --> 00:30:40,221
<i>That time that she's spending with Cannan,</i>

567
00:30:40,301 --> 00:30:42,421
<i>because all that time she would be</i>

568
00:30:42,501 --> 00:30:45,781
<i>hoping and praying that
she would be able to return</i>

569
00:30:45,861 --> 00:30:47,301
<i>to her husband.</i>

570
00:30:47,901 --> 00:30:50,501
<i>All the time Cannan
would have been enjoying</i>

571
00:30:50,581 --> 00:30:54,861
<i>every single moment that
he had power and control</i>

572
00:30:54,941 --> 00:30:55,781
<i>over her.</i>

573
00:30:57,021 --> 00:31:00,341
<i>Criminologists would say that
he was processed focused,</i>

574
00:31:00,421 --> 00:31:02,061
<i>not act focus.</i>

575
00:31:02,141 --> 00:31:03,501
<i>And what does that mean?</i>

576
00:31:03,581 --> 00:31:08,581
<i>That he's enjoying the
sense of being with a victim</i>

577
00:31:08,701 --> 00:31:10,741
<i>he's then going to kill.</i>

578
00:31:10,821 --> 00:31:11,821
<i>So he enjoys it?</i>

579
00:31:11,901 --> 00:31:12,661
<i>He enjoys it.</i>

580
00:31:12,741 --> 00:31:15,621
<i>If he was act focused and
he was simply interested</i>

581
00:31:15,701 --> 00:31:16,701
<i>in the kill,</i>

582
00:31:16,781 --> 00:31:18,741
<i>he'd kill and move on.</i>

583
00:31:18,821 --> 00:31:22,621
<i>That's not what floats his
boat, criminologically.</i>

584
00:31:22,701 --> 00:31:26,541
<i>He likes to be with his victim.</i>

585
00:31:26,621 --> 00:31:30,421
<i>And you know, we're
not hypothesizing here.</i>

586
00:31:30,501 --> 00:31:33,141
<i>This is definitive.</i>

587
00:31:33,221 --> 00:31:37,581
<i>This is what we know John
Cannan is capable of doing.</i>

588
00:31:37,661 --> 00:31:39,301
<i>And you know what?</i>

589
00:31:39,461 --> 00:31:40,621
<i>Could he have been capable</i>

590
00:31:40,701 --> 00:31:43,821
<i>of doing something similar
with Suzy Lamplugh?</i>

591
00:31:43,901 --> 00:31:46,381
<i>[eerie music]</i>

592
00:31:48,821 --> 00:31:51,181
<i>[David] Dead Woman's
Ditch has got me thinking.</i>

593
00:31:51,261 --> 00:31:53,741
<i>We need to use geo profiling.</i>

594
00:31:53,821 --> 00:31:55,901
<i>My friend works with the police,</i>

595
00:31:55,981 --> 00:31:58,221
<i>and she uses locations of crimes</i>

596
00:31:58,301 --> 00:32:01,141
<i>to predict where an offender might live</i>

597
00:32:01,221 --> 00:32:03,261
<i>and helps the police narrow</i>

598
00:32:03,341 --> 00:32:05,341
<i>down the pool of suspects.</i>

599
00:32:05,421 --> 00:32:07,901
<i>But for us, maybe she
could use the science</i>

600
00:32:07,981 --> 00:32:09,501
<i>of geo profiling</i>

601
00:32:09,581 --> 00:32:10,741
<i>to help predict--</i>

602
00:32:10,821 --> 00:32:13,541
<i>Where the murderer could
have disposed of Suzy's body.</i>

603
00:32:13,621 --> 00:32:16,141
<i>That's what I'm hoping for.</i>

604
00:32:17,861 --> 00:32:21,221
<i>[slow piano music]</i>

605
00:32:21,301 --> 00:32:22,981
<i>So what does the sign say?</i>

606
00:32:23,061 --> 00:32:26,501
<i>Geographic profiling
involves the reconstruction</i>

607
00:32:26,581 --> 00:32:29,701
<i>and interpretation of an
offender's mental map.</i>

608
00:32:29,781 --> 00:32:31,501
<i>There's two components to that process.</i>

609
00:32:31,581 --> 00:32:33,421
<i>One is an objective analysis</i>

610
00:32:33,501 --> 00:32:36,341
<i>that's based on a statistical
analysis of the point pattern</i>

611
00:32:36,421 --> 00:32:38,621
<i>that an offender leaves.</i>

612
00:32:38,701 --> 00:32:39,861
<i>And then the second part of that</i>

613
00:32:39,941 --> 00:32:42,101
<i>is a more subjective analysis</i>

614
00:32:42,181 --> 00:32:44,101
<i>looking at the underlying environment,</i>

615
00:32:44,181 --> 00:32:45,501
<i>interpreting that as the way,</i>

616
00:32:45,581 --> 00:32:47,341
<i>perhaps very much the
way an offender would</i>

617
00:32:47,421 --> 00:32:49,021
<i>when he was trying to make decisions</i>

618
00:32:49,101 --> 00:32:50,781
<i>about where to offend next</i>

619
00:32:50,861 --> 00:32:53,461
<i>or where to dispose of the body.</i>

620
00:32:53,541 --> 00:32:57,421
<i>In terms of Suzy, how have you gone about</i>

621
00:32:57,501 --> 00:33:01,381
<i>trying to think about Cannan's mental map</i>

622
00:33:01,461 --> 00:33:04,901
<i>and the spaces and areas
he's comfortable with?</i>

623
00:33:04,981 --> 00:33:06,901
<i>What you'll see here
is this is the results</i>

624
00:33:06,981 --> 00:33:10,661
<i>of the geographic profile
overlaid on the map.</i>

625
00:33:10,741 --> 00:33:11,581
<i>To interpret this</i>

626
00:33:11,661 --> 00:33:13,021
<i>we look at the colors.</i>

627
00:33:13,101 --> 00:33:15,581
<i>This red area is the highest probability</i>

628
00:33:15,661 --> 00:33:18,861
<i>that an offender has a base here, okay.</i>

629
00:33:18,941 --> 00:33:20,501
<i>And then from there</i>

630
00:33:20,581 --> 00:33:24,541
<i>these colors represent
decreasing, likelihoods.</i>

631
00:33:24,621 --> 00:33:27,821
<i>So Sam, we've got a group of offenses</i>

632
00:33:27,901 --> 00:33:30,221
<i>in the Birmingham area.</i>

633
00:33:30,301 --> 00:33:32,501
<i>A group of offenses in the London area.</i>

634
00:33:32,581 --> 00:33:35,221
<i>And again, offenses in the Bristol area.</i>

635
00:33:35,301 --> 00:33:36,621
<i>Yeah, what I'm focusing on</i>

636
00:33:36,701 --> 00:33:39,101
<i>are those locations that were relevant</i>

637
00:33:39,181 --> 00:33:41,661
<i>at the time of Suzy's disappearance.</i>

638
00:33:41,741 --> 00:33:45,381
<i>My starting point is Cannan's home base,</i>

639
00:33:45,461 --> 00:33:46,701
<i>Sutton Coldfield.</i>

640
00:33:46,781 --> 00:33:49,581
<i>We know he had been released</i>

641
00:33:49,661 --> 00:33:51,901
<i>from his bail hostel a few days earlier</i>

642
00:33:51,981 --> 00:33:54,981
<i>and may have actually
moved back to this address.</i>

643
00:33:55,061 --> 00:33:56,461
<i>And that's where his mother lived.</i>

644
00:33:56,541 --> 00:33:57,261
<i>-Is that right?
-That's where</i>

645
00:33:57,341 --> 00:33:59,381
<i>his mother lived, exactly.</i>

646
00:33:59,461 --> 00:34:03,181
<i>The London home base is
his pre-release hostel</i>

647
00:34:03,261 --> 00:34:06,021
<i>when he was released from Wormwood Scrubs.</i>

648
00:34:06,101 --> 00:34:09,781
<i>That places him in the vicinity
of where Suzy disappeared.</i>

649
00:34:09,861 --> 00:34:13,221
<i>[suspenseful music]</i>

650
00:34:13,301 --> 00:34:14,861
<i>So I can already see</i>

651
00:34:14,941 --> 00:34:18,741
<i>you've got the M4 really highlighted.</i>

652
00:34:18,821 --> 00:34:19,861
<i>Why the M4?</i>

653
00:34:22,461 --> 00:34:25,341
<i>We know that his mental map is biased</i>

654
00:34:25,421 --> 00:34:27,861
<i>towards the west country.</i>

655
00:34:32,141 --> 00:34:34,341
<i>The M4 leads to Bristol.</i>

656
00:34:36,941 --> 00:34:38,581
<i>And also you can get onto the M40</i>

657
00:34:38,661 --> 00:34:42,301
<i>from the M4 that leads up to Birmingham.</i>

658
00:34:45,781 --> 00:34:48,141
<i>This is the ordinance
survey map of the area.</i>

659
00:34:48,221 --> 00:34:52,101
<i>So you see, we've got
the M4 coming in here.</i>

660
00:34:53,781 --> 00:34:55,541
<i>This will get him out of London.</i>

661
00:34:55,621 --> 00:34:57,581
<i>And then he would start to be able to</i>

662
00:34:57,661 --> 00:35:00,781
<i>identify suitable locations.</i>

663
00:35:03,421 --> 00:35:05,141
<i>The area that you've highlighted</i>

664
00:35:05,221 --> 00:35:08,981
<i>as I can see is the first
where we've got a green space</i>

665
00:35:09,061 --> 00:35:12,621
<i>and some river canal network.</i>

666
00:35:12,701 --> 00:35:14,301
<i>We know looking at his past behavior</i>

667
00:35:14,381 --> 00:35:19,141
<i>that he savored water in
the locations that he used.</i>

668
00:35:21,021 --> 00:35:22,781
<i>For me, it was about looking</i>

669
00:35:22,861 --> 00:35:26,501
<i>along this route for the
first suitable location</i>

670
00:35:26,581 --> 00:35:29,381
<i>that fell within our red
high probability area</i>

671
00:35:29,461 --> 00:35:31,981
<i>that fit that suitability.</i>

672
00:35:35,341 --> 00:35:37,741
<i>We can never put an X on a map</i>

673
00:35:37,821 --> 00:35:41,101
<i>and say that's where you
need to start digging.</i>

674
00:35:41,181 --> 00:35:46,501
<i>However, the area I think is
of interest is this area here.</i>

675
00:35:46,581 --> 00:35:48,941
<i>See, it has the River
Brent running through it</i>

676
00:35:49,021 --> 00:35:51,901
<i>as well as the M4 dissecting it.</i>

677
00:35:52,541 --> 00:35:53,301
<i>It's very accessible.</i>

678
00:35:53,381 --> 00:35:55,421
<i>So bringing a car in here</i>

679
00:35:55,501 --> 00:35:59,381
<i>you can get really
quite close to the park.</i>

680
00:36:00,421 --> 00:36:01,221
<i>It's fascinating.</i>

681
00:36:01,301 --> 00:36:03,701
<i>It's like a geographical post-mortem.</i>

682
00:36:03,781 --> 00:36:07,301
<i>Is there anything else we can find out?</i>

683
00:36:09,741 --> 00:36:13,341
<i>[David] So this is the area
we should concentrate in?</i>

684
00:36:13,421 --> 00:36:14,421
<i>Absolutely.</i>

685
00:36:14,501 --> 00:36:17,821
<i>That is where I suggest we
really focus our attention.</i>

686
00:36:17,901 --> 00:36:19,301
<i>[phone buzzing]</i>

687
00:36:19,381 --> 00:36:22,461
<i>-[Emilia] Sorry.
-[David] Okay.</i>

688
00:36:23,061 --> 00:36:27,501
<i>Yes, the people you were
telling me about, yeah?</i>

689
00:36:28,901 --> 00:36:31,341
<i>That was Jim Dickey,
the detective who said</i>

690
00:36:31,421 --> 00:36:33,821
<i>that there might be some
people with new information</i>

691
00:36:33,901 --> 00:36:36,621
<i>and he's just said that
they will talk to us,</i>

692
00:36:36,701 --> 00:36:38,621
<i>and they want to meet in Brentford</i>

693
00:36:38,701 --> 00:36:43,581
<i>which is actually within
the geo profiling hotspot.</i>

694
00:36:44,301 --> 00:36:47,741
<i>[slow suspenseful music]</i>

695
00:37:02,981 --> 00:37:06,181
<i>The two people with new
information are willing to talk,</i>

696
00:37:06,261 --> 00:37:09,701
<i>but they don't want to be identified.</i>

697
00:37:12,141 --> 00:37:17,061
<i>Okay, Mills, I've got the
train and the cars on my right</i>

698
00:37:17,141 --> 00:37:19,261
<i>I'm passing a storage
unit which I don't know</i>

699
00:37:19,341 --> 00:37:22,661
<i>if that existed in 1986.</i>

700
00:37:22,741 --> 00:37:24,781
<i>Am I in slightly the right area?</i>

701
00:37:24,861 --> 00:37:27,501
<i>Where would you like me to go?</i>

702
00:37:28,861 --> 00:37:32,061
<i>David, if you, the way you're
walking, keep going forward</i>

703
00:37:32,141 --> 00:37:34,661
<i>and you'll see a big bridge.</i>

704
00:37:36,101 --> 00:37:37,181
<i>Keep going.</i>

705
00:37:39,421 --> 00:37:42,221
<i>Can I ask you while David
is walking the path,</i>

706
00:37:42,301 --> 00:37:47,621
<i>would you mind telling me about
Dave and how you know Dave?</i>

707
00:37:47,861 --> 00:37:50,741
<i>We used to child mind
together in the same area.</i>

708
00:37:50,821 --> 00:37:56,021
<i>And we were all neighbors and
really all got on very well.</i>

709
00:37:56,421 --> 00:38:00,701
<i>Will you tell us what Dave
saw that morning in 1986?</i>

710
00:38:00,781 --> 00:38:02,861
<i>Yes, Dave was on his way to work</i>

711
00:38:02,941 --> 00:38:04,181
<i>and he would leave very
early in the morning,</i>

712
00:38:04,261 --> 00:38:06,141
<i>about five o'clock.</i>

713
00:38:09,821 --> 00:38:11,461
<i>As he was walking down a tow path</i>

714
00:38:11,541 --> 00:38:14,301
<i>he saw a man coming towards him</i>

715
00:38:14,581 --> 00:38:18,101
<i>carrying quite a heavy load on wheels.</i>

716
00:38:20,821 --> 00:38:24,461
<i>As he passed him, Dave heard a splash,</i>

717
00:38:24,541 --> 00:38:26,661
<i>-[water splashing]
-he looked around</i>

718
00:38:26,741 --> 00:38:30,661
<i>and saw the man running
with nothing in his hand.</i>

719
00:38:30,741 --> 00:38:33,581
<i>So after his day's work, Dave
went to the police station</i>

720
00:38:33,661 --> 00:38:34,981
<i>to report what he'd seen.</i>

721
00:38:35,061 --> 00:38:36,501
<i>[Emilia] And they were quite dismissive?</i>

722
00:38:36,581 --> 00:38:39,021
<i>Dismissive with him.</i>

723
00:38:39,101 --> 00:38:41,261
<i>It wasn't until 1989,</i>

724
00:38:41,341 --> 00:38:44,581
<i>it was going to be a trial
for the Shirley Banks murder,</i>

725
00:38:44,661 --> 00:38:47,101
<i>that he saw a picture
in the Evening Standard</i>

726
00:38:47,181 --> 00:38:49,781
<i>of the man that was gonna stand for trial</i>

727
00:38:49,861 --> 00:38:53,181
<i>and said, "That looks like the man."</i>

728
00:38:54,221 --> 00:38:56,941
<i>Because he wanted to be absolutely sure,</i>

729
00:38:57,021 --> 00:38:59,181
<i>he said to his wife, " I'm
going down to the trial</i>

730
00:38:59,261 --> 00:39:00,861
<i>and Exeter crown court."</i>

731
00:39:00,941 --> 00:39:03,781
<i>He actually saw John
Cannan being sentenced</i>

732
00:39:03,861 --> 00:39:05,781
<i>and taken down from the dock.</i>

733
00:39:05,861 --> 00:39:07,981
<i>And he came back and
said, "That is definitely</i>

734
00:39:08,061 --> 00:39:12,581
<i>the man that I saw on the
canal path that morning."</i>

735
00:39:15,461 --> 00:39:18,061
<i>After he came back from Exeter,
he went to the police again</i>

736
00:39:18,141 --> 00:39:19,061
<i>and told them this</i>

737
00:39:19,141 --> 00:39:21,901
<i>and came back so frustrated,
because again he said,</i>

738
00:39:21,981 --> 00:39:23,021
<i>"They're not listening to me.</i>

739
00:39:23,101 --> 00:39:25,501
<i>I don't think they believe me."</i>

740
00:39:25,581 --> 00:39:28,141
<i>That must've been devastating for him.</i>

741
00:39:28,221 --> 00:39:32,221
<i>He had no reason to not tell the truth.</i>

742
00:39:32,301 --> 00:39:34,861
<i>When we spoke to Sylvia,
his wife, she'd say,</i>

743
00:39:34,941 --> 00:39:36,941
<i>"I'm fed up with him talking about it</i>

744
00:39:37,021 --> 00:39:38,861
<i>because he's driving me mad with it.</i>

745
00:39:38,941 --> 00:39:41,941
<i>That's all he's talking about."</i>

746
00:39:43,101 --> 00:39:46,621
<i>It haunted him for the rest of his life.</i>

747
00:39:50,141 --> 00:39:53,101
<i>[eerie music]</i>

748
00:39:53,181 --> 00:39:54,941
<i>I can see a bridge.</i>

749
00:39:55,021 --> 00:39:56,541
<i>I can see a bridge through the trees.</i>

750
00:39:56,621 --> 00:39:57,501
<i>Is this it?</i>

751
00:39:57,581 --> 00:39:58,821
<i>Yes, that's the bridge.</i>

752
00:39:58,901 --> 00:39:59,701
<i>That's the bridge, David,</i>

753
00:39:59,781 --> 00:40:01,741
<i>it should be near a bend.</i>

754
00:40:01,821 --> 00:40:04,541
<i>It's about where you are, David.</i>

755
00:40:04,621 --> 00:40:06,741
<i>There's evidence of steps there</i>

756
00:40:06,821 --> 00:40:09,341
<i>which would all be built up by now.</i>

757
00:40:09,421 --> 00:40:10,261
<i>Yeah.</i>

758
00:40:11,221 --> 00:40:13,741
<i>[Emilia] That's where we
think that he dropped the bag.</i>

759
00:40:13,821 --> 00:40:17,901
<i>That's were Dave thought
he dropped the bag.</i>

760
00:40:21,421 --> 00:40:26,421
<i>-[slow piano music]
-[birds chirping]</i>

761
00:40:34,741 --> 00:40:36,901
<i>[David] Were these women believable?</i>

762
00:40:36,981 --> 00:40:38,981
<i>Totally credible.</i>

763
00:40:39,061 --> 00:40:42,221
<i>As I believe was Dave, and
Jim Dickie thinks so too.</i>

764
00:40:42,301 --> 00:40:46,421
<i>So if we accept the story that Dave tells</i>

765
00:40:46,501 --> 00:40:47,821
<i>-as being accurate.
-Yeah.</i>

766
00:40:47,901 --> 00:40:50,301
<i>He sees somebody who identifies</i>

767
00:40:50,381 --> 00:40:53,181
<i>as John Cannan carrying a suitcase</i>

768
00:40:53,261 --> 00:40:54,661
<i>that he deposits in the water.</i>

769
00:40:54,741 --> 00:40:55,501
<i>Is that the story?</i>

770
00:40:55,581 --> 00:40:57,061
<i>Yes, and they didn't do anything about it.</i>

771
00:40:57,141 --> 00:40:59,621
<i>He went to the police about
three times apparently.</i>

772
00:40:59,701 --> 00:41:01,941
<i>Well, I suppose all of
this proves something</i>

773
00:41:02,021 --> 00:41:04,101
<i>I've always said about cold cases.</i>

774
00:41:04,181 --> 00:41:06,941
<i>You make them hot again if you</i>

775
00:41:07,021 --> 00:41:08,941
<i>shake the tree proverbially</i>

776
00:41:09,021 --> 00:41:11,341
<i>and something falls from the branches.</i>

777
00:41:11,421 --> 00:41:15,181
<i>New witnesses come forward,
new evidence emerges,</i>

778
00:41:15,261 --> 00:41:18,221
<i>forensic techniques
develop that you can test</i>

779
00:41:18,301 --> 00:41:22,701
<i>against old exhibits
that you've collected.</i>

780
00:41:23,541 --> 00:41:27,741
<i>If Cannan was that person that Dave saw</i>

781
00:41:27,821 --> 00:41:29,741
<i>that's credible and has
to be taken seriously.</i>

782
00:41:29,821 --> 00:41:33,501
<i>It affected the whole of
Dave's life, apparently.</i>

783
00:41:33,581 --> 00:41:36,581
<i>That's how much he believed
that the person that he saw</i>

784
00:41:36,661 --> 00:41:40,221
<i>on that tow path was John Cannan.</i>

785
00:41:40,301 --> 00:41:42,101
<i>The bit that's still confusing to me</i>

786
00:41:42,181 --> 00:41:46,621
<i>is that the canal is only four foot deep.</i>

787
00:41:46,701 --> 00:41:48,701
<i>I'm not so sure what we can interpret</i>

788
00:41:48,781 --> 00:41:51,821
<i>about a suitcase and four feet of water.</i>

789
00:41:51,901 --> 00:41:52,661
<i>Would it be found?</i>

790
00:41:52,741 --> 00:41:53,901
<i>Wouldn't it be found?</i>

791
00:41:53,981 --> 00:41:55,701
<i>Could it have sunk into the mud?</i>

792
00:41:55,781 --> 00:41:56,541
<i>I don't know.</i>

793
00:41:56,621 --> 00:41:58,021
<i>I mean I think we're going to have to ask</i>

794
00:41:58,101 --> 00:41:59,941
<i>a forensic pathologist</i>

795
00:42:00,021 --> 00:42:02,101
<i>and surely you know some
forensic pathologists</i>

796
00:42:02,181 --> 00:42:02,981
<i>we could phone?</i>

797
00:42:03,061 --> 00:42:05,701
<i>I've got a phone full of them.</i>

798
00:42:05,981 --> 00:42:06,741
<i>Hang on.</i>

799
00:42:06,821 --> 00:42:07,821
<i>Let me see.</i>

800
00:42:11,581 --> 00:42:14,181
<i>[phone ringing]</i>

801
00:42:14,261 --> 00:42:15,981
<i>Hi, it's Emelia.</i>

802
00:42:16,061 --> 00:42:17,781
<i>I need your help.</i>

803
00:42:19,581 --> 00:42:21,141
<i>Yes, potentially.</i>

804
00:42:21,221 --> 00:42:22,661
<i>A body in water.</i>

805
00:42:24,141 --> 00:42:27,021
<i>Pretty much for three decades.</i>

806
00:42:27,941 --> 00:42:29,461
<i>In Brentford, London</i>

807
00:42:29,541 --> 00:42:31,861
<i>by the Grand Union canal.</i>

808
00:42:39,501 --> 00:42:40,581
<i>How usual is it</i>

809
00:42:40,661 --> 00:42:45,301
<i>for someone to dispose of
a body in a river or canal?</i>

810
00:42:45,501 --> 00:42:46,301
<i>It happens.</i>

811
00:42:46,381 --> 00:42:47,461
<i>You don't have to dig a hole.</i>

812
00:42:47,541 --> 00:42:48,781
<i>You don't have to spend hours, you know</i>

813
00:42:48,861 --> 00:42:50,541
<i>digging a grave somewhere,
finding somewhere,</i>

814
00:42:50,621 --> 00:42:52,221
<i>you know where the rivers are.</i>

815
00:42:52,301 --> 00:42:53,701
<i>You just throw it into the river.</i>

816
00:42:53,781 --> 00:42:55,781
<i>Water covers over it.</i>

817
00:42:57,861 --> 00:42:59,621
<i>When you say water covers over it</i>

818
00:42:59,701 --> 00:43:01,141
<i>does that mean that also</i>

819
00:43:01,221 --> 00:43:03,101
<i>that a lot of the forensic evidence</i>

820
00:43:03,181 --> 00:43:05,221
<i>that might be gathered gets destroyed?</i>

821
00:43:05,301 --> 00:43:08,021
<i>If we're talking about sort of in there</i>

822
00:43:08,101 --> 00:43:10,861
<i>it'll sink down to the bottom.</i>

823
00:43:13,101 --> 00:43:14,701
<i>There's not much oxygen around.</i>

824
00:43:14,781 --> 00:43:17,181
<i>You start to get what's
it, suppolification</i>

825
00:43:17,261 --> 00:43:18,301
<i>or adepacy formation</i>

826
00:43:18,381 --> 00:43:20,741
<i>where basically the body turns to soap.</i>

827
00:43:20,821 --> 00:43:23,101
<i>Body fat becomes very hard.</i>

828
00:43:23,181 --> 00:43:26,181
<i>So a body could stay in the
water for years, you know,</i>

829
00:43:26,261 --> 00:43:28,421
<i>and if it's not dredged or anything,</i>

830
00:43:28,501 --> 00:43:29,421
<i>eventually it will break down</i>

831
00:43:29,501 --> 00:43:31,341
<i>and then you'll get just the bones.</i>

832
00:43:31,421 --> 00:43:34,301
<i>The skull, pelvis, femurs,</i>

833
00:43:34,381 --> 00:43:35,501
<i>the number of vertebra.</i>

834
00:43:35,581 --> 00:43:37,021
<i>They, they tend to stay around.</i>

835
00:43:37,101 --> 00:43:41,301
<i>Smaller bones get sort
of washed downstream.</i>

836
00:43:41,821 --> 00:43:43,781
<i>If you've got muddy, salty water</i>

837
00:43:43,861 --> 00:43:44,941
<i>not much oxygen,</i>

838
00:43:45,021 --> 00:43:47,101
<i>you could have a few big bones there</i>

839
00:43:47,181 --> 00:43:49,421
<i>lasting 30, 40 years.</i>

840
00:43:49,501 --> 00:43:50,781
<i>I mean, we occasionally get bodies</i>

841
00:43:50,861 --> 00:43:53,021
<i>coming out of the Thames from Tudor times.</i>

842
00:43:53,101 --> 00:43:55,021
<i>Well, let's talk about that.</i>

843
00:43:55,101 --> 00:43:58,541
<i>If there were human remains in the canal,</i>

844
00:43:58,621 --> 00:44:01,021
<i>how will that help the police</i>

845
00:44:01,101 --> 00:44:04,661
<i>identify who the victim has been?</i>

846
00:44:05,701 --> 00:44:07,301
<i>If you've got the skull
and you've got the teeth</i>

847
00:44:07,381 --> 00:44:09,541
<i>you can get DNA out of
the teeth, particularly.</i>

848
00:44:09,621 --> 00:44:11,261
<i>And then you've got a
match against relatives.</i>

849
00:44:11,341 --> 00:44:12,261
<i>You can identify someone</i>

850
00:44:12,341 --> 00:44:14,701
<i>by scouring through all
the old dental records.</i>

851
00:44:14,781 --> 00:44:16,221
<i>If you know who the person is,</i>

852
00:44:16,301 --> 00:44:18,381
<i>relatives perhaps around
you can get their DNA</i>

853
00:44:18,461 --> 00:44:19,981
<i>and match their DNA to that.</i>

854
00:44:20,061 --> 00:44:22,701
<i>Yeah, you could identify a body.</i>

855
00:44:22,781 --> 00:44:24,661
<i>Theoretically, could the body</i>

856
00:44:24,741 --> 00:44:27,621
<i>of Suzy Lamplugh still be in
this stretch of the canal?</i>

857
00:44:27,701 --> 00:44:29,221
<i>If you've got the silt there</i>

858
00:44:29,301 --> 00:44:31,901
<i>and it hasn't been touched
over the last 13 years,</i>

859
00:44:31,981 --> 00:44:35,261
<i>theoretically they could be, yeah, yeah.</i>

860
00:44:35,341 --> 00:44:37,221
<i>So it could be worth?</i>

861
00:44:38,341 --> 00:44:39,901
<i>Dredging the canal.</i>

862
00:44:39,981 --> 00:44:40,941
<i>Would you say?</i>

863
00:44:41,021 --> 00:44:42,141
<i>Not for me to say, but yeah.</i>

864
00:44:42,221 --> 00:44:44,221
<i>There could be a sort
of quite a decent amount</i>

865
00:44:44,301 --> 00:44:48,101
<i>of human remains still
in the, in the canal.</i>

866
00:44:48,181 --> 00:44:49,021
<i>Gosh.</i>

867
00:44:52,381 --> 00:44:55,101
<i>Millie, the body of Suzy Lamplugh</i>

868
00:44:55,181 --> 00:44:59,061
<i>might be within this stretch of the canal.</i>

869
00:45:04,701 --> 00:45:07,101
<i>[slow music]</i>

870
00:45:15,581 --> 00:45:17,581
<i>We have made some significant discoveries,</i>

871
00:45:17,661 --> 00:45:18,741
<i>haven't we?</i>

872
00:45:19,541 --> 00:45:20,741
<i>The geo profiling,</i>

873
00:45:20,821 --> 00:45:24,261
<i>the very first time that that
has been done on this case.</i>

874
00:45:24,341 --> 00:45:26,301
<i>That geo profiling crosses</i>

875
00:45:26,381 --> 00:45:30,621
<i>with new information that we've uncovered.</i>

876
00:45:30,701 --> 00:45:33,021
<i>And so we're coming to this spot.</i>

877
00:45:33,101 --> 00:45:35,501
<i>We've heard a forensic pathologist say</i>

878
00:45:35,581 --> 00:45:38,261
<i>that well, it's worth dredging here.</i>

879
00:45:38,341 --> 00:45:40,941
<i>And I'm glad that we're
ending by thinking about</i>

880
00:45:41,021 --> 00:45:42,381
<i>Suzy Lamplugh.</i>

881
00:45:42,461 --> 00:45:44,221
<i>Because for me that's quite personal.</i>

882
00:45:44,301 --> 00:45:47,821
<i>I mean, I knew Diana her mother.</i>

883
00:45:47,901 --> 00:45:49,021
<i>I shared a stage</i>

884
00:45:49,101 --> 00:45:52,701
<i>with her talking to young
women about personal safety.</i>

885
00:45:52,781 --> 00:45:56,061
<i>And I think if she were still alive</i>

886
00:45:56,141 --> 00:45:59,541
<i>I could look Diana in the face and say</i>

887
00:45:59,621 --> 00:46:03,341
<i>we've helped move this investigation on,</i>

888
00:46:03,421 --> 00:46:05,021
<i>uncovered evidence</i>

889
00:46:05,101 --> 00:46:07,021
<i>about the prime suspect,</i>

890
00:46:07,101 --> 00:46:09,341
<i>and might even have an answer</i>

891
00:46:09,421 --> 00:46:12,501
<i>to where Suzy's remains could be.</i>

892
00:46:22,101 --> 00:46:25,381
<i>[eerie childish music]</i>