1 00:00:12,261 --> 00:00:16,341 It's incredibly claustrophobic, isn't it? 2 00:00:17,261 --> 00:00:19,301 You think someone would have seen something, 3 00:00:19,381 --> 00:00:20,701 wouldn't you? 4 00:00:31,661 --> 00:00:34,861 39, blue door, 37. 5 00:00:41,101 --> 00:00:42,261 There it is. 6 00:00:44,381 --> 00:00:47,981 Can you remember when the appointment was? 7 00:00:48,061 --> 00:00:51,061 12:45 with Mr. Kipper. 8 00:00:51,381 --> 00:00:54,141 And then she just disappears. 9 00:00:55,941 --> 00:00:59,581 And we have no idea what happened to her. 10 00:01:53,181 --> 00:01:58,501 Suzy Lamplugh was only 25 years old when she went missing. 11 00:01:58,581 --> 00:02:01,861 She's described as bright and bubbly, funny, ambitious 12 00:02:01,941 --> 00:02:05,421 popular, and hugely adept at her job. 13 00:02:05,501 --> 00:02:06,941 She was in an estate agent. 14 00:02:07,021 --> 00:02:07,781 She was doing well. 15 00:02:07,861 --> 00:02:09,381 She's a professional young woman. 16 00:02:09,461 --> 00:02:10,781 She's living in her own flat. 17 00:02:10,861 --> 00:02:12,181 She's got her own money, 18 00:02:12,261 --> 00:02:15,901 and here suddenly she goes missing off the streets of Fulham 19 00:02:15,981 --> 00:02:19,341 and no one can work out what on earth has happened to her. 20 00:02:19,421 --> 00:02:22,021 And if she could go missing in broad daylight 21 00:02:22,101 --> 00:02:23,581 never to be seen again, 22 00:02:23,661 --> 00:02:25,581 well, what about all the other women? 23 00:02:25,661 --> 00:02:27,421 Are they in danger too? 24 00:02:27,501 --> 00:02:30,421 And then she was declared dead in 1993, 25 00:02:30,501 --> 00:02:33,301 but no one has ever been prosecuted. 26 00:02:33,381 --> 00:02:36,341 And yet it was one of the largest police investigations 27 00:02:36,421 --> 00:02:37,981 of its day. 28 00:02:38,061 --> 00:02:41,061 And it's not for the want of trying by her parents, 29 00:02:41,141 --> 00:02:43,461 Diana and Paul Lamplugh. 30 00:02:44,261 --> 00:02:46,061 Who you had a personal connection to? 31 00:02:46,141 --> 00:02:48,861 Yeah, I shared many a platform with Diana 32 00:02:48,941 --> 00:02:51,781 throughout the '80s and the '90s, 33 00:02:51,861 --> 00:02:53,821 and I remember one particular occasion. 34 00:02:53,901 --> 00:02:57,541 She got all the women in the hall to stand up 35 00:02:57,621 --> 00:02:59,341 and then she made them scream. 36 00:02:59,421 --> 00:03:03,861 And she said, if my Suzy had screamed 37 00:03:03,941 --> 00:03:06,461 maybe she'd be alive today. 38 00:03:08,461 --> 00:03:11,421 Okay, well let's look at the witness statements 39 00:03:11,501 --> 00:03:12,261 that we've got, 40 00:03:12,341 --> 00:03:13,941 and try and piece together 41 00:03:14,021 --> 00:03:16,381 the facts that we know about what happened 42 00:03:16,461 --> 00:03:19,101 on the day Suzy disappeared. 43 00:03:29,181 --> 00:03:32,181 There are literally scores of witness statements 44 00:03:32,261 --> 00:03:33,821 on the day. 45 00:03:33,901 --> 00:03:37,221 Noel Devier, an unemployed barman who says 46 00:03:37,301 --> 00:03:42,301 he sees Suzy outside 37 Shorells Road about 12:50. 47 00:03:48,581 --> 00:03:51,261 We know that she goes into her estate agent's store 48 00:03:51,341 --> 00:03:52,541 just on the Fulham Road 49 00:03:52,621 --> 00:03:55,101 and that she tries to deal with a flurry of offers 50 00:03:55,181 --> 00:03:57,941 that came in for houses over the weekend. 51 00:03:58,021 --> 00:04:01,701 And they managed to trace all the clients that Suzy had 52 00:04:01,781 --> 00:04:05,661 except Mr. Kipper, who they could find no details of. 53 00:04:05,741 --> 00:04:07,021 We know her car, 54 00:04:07,101 --> 00:04:11,341 this white Ford Fiesta, is found a mile away 55 00:04:11,421 --> 00:04:14,301 from Shorells Road, in Stevenage Road 56 00:04:14,381 --> 00:04:16,901 outside this very garage. 57 00:04:21,221 --> 00:04:24,181 Significantly the driver's seat was pushed back 58 00:04:24,261 --> 00:04:26,541 from its usual forward position. 59 00:04:26,621 --> 00:04:29,021 So further back than probably a woman would have 60 00:04:29,101 --> 00:04:30,181 it to drive. 61 00:04:31,741 --> 00:04:33,741 The car was parked askew from the pavement 62 00:04:33,821 --> 00:04:37,101 and about 18 inches across this garage. 63 00:04:37,181 --> 00:04:39,901 And the handbrake wasn't engaged. 64 00:04:39,981 --> 00:04:43,101 The door to the driver's side was open. 65 00:04:43,181 --> 00:04:45,541 The passenger door was locked. 66 00:04:45,621 --> 00:04:47,021 The hypothesis must be 67 00:04:47,101 --> 00:04:48,781 that the man who abducts her 68 00:04:48,861 --> 00:04:51,021 drives her car to this spot 69 00:04:51,101 --> 00:04:53,301 so that he can transfer her 70 00:04:53,381 --> 00:04:56,341 from this car into a car that he's already got parked 71 00:04:56,421 --> 00:04:58,101 somewhere up the street. 72 00:04:58,181 --> 00:04:59,701 How did he do that? 73 00:04:59,781 --> 00:05:02,461 By using violence or the threat of violence, 74 00:05:02,541 --> 00:05:04,621 or perhaps even charm? 75 00:05:08,901 --> 00:05:10,141 There are witness reports 76 00:05:10,221 --> 00:05:12,581 that someone fitting Suzy's description 77 00:05:12,661 --> 00:05:15,981 was seen possibly arguing with a smartly dressed man 78 00:05:16,061 --> 00:05:20,581 in a black BMW or Mercedes racing off in this area. 79 00:05:22,501 --> 00:05:24,381 We should speak to someone who worked on the case 80 00:05:24,461 --> 00:05:26,901 the day Suzy went missing. 81 00:05:38,981 --> 00:05:41,021 I'm running a bit late. 82 00:05:41,101 --> 00:05:42,701 I'm going to speak to a detective 83 00:05:42,781 --> 00:05:45,781 who was on the case from day one. 84 00:05:45,861 --> 00:05:46,941 Okay. 85 00:05:47,021 --> 00:05:48,781 Speak to you later. 86 00:05:56,781 --> 00:06:00,221 Brings back a lot of emotion, really. 87 00:06:01,501 --> 00:06:04,701 It's a mystery, absolute mystery. 88 00:06:07,181 --> 00:06:10,141 I went to Suzy's flat. 89 00:06:10,221 --> 00:06:11,901 Paul Lamplugh, Suzy's father, 90 00:06:11,981 --> 00:06:13,741 was already at Fulham police station. 91 00:06:13,821 --> 00:06:16,141 So I took him with me. 92 00:06:16,221 --> 00:06:18,061 -Emotions were high. Yeah. 93 00:06:18,141 --> 00:06:20,341 Because I didn't know what I was going to find in there. 94 00:06:20,421 --> 00:06:24,461 Mr. Lamplugh had to be restrained by my colleague 95 00:06:24,541 --> 00:06:26,301 not to follow me in. 96 00:06:27,101 --> 00:06:30,461 And nothing untoward was found in there. 97 00:06:30,541 --> 00:06:32,061 There was no disturbance. 98 00:06:32,141 --> 00:06:34,221 There was no sign of Suzy. 99 00:06:34,301 --> 00:06:36,701 And there was nothing that would give you any information 100 00:06:36,781 --> 00:06:40,621 about what had happened in any way, any connection? 101 00:06:40,701 --> 00:06:42,981 Nothing at all, absolutely nothing. 102 00:06:43,061 --> 00:06:44,701 It's like a parent's worst nightmare. 103 00:06:44,781 --> 00:06:46,981 Exactly, exactly that. 104 00:06:49,581 --> 00:06:51,741 -We didn't have CCTV. Yeah. 105 00:06:51,821 --> 00:06:54,021 We didn't have mobile phone intelligence. 106 00:06:54,101 --> 00:06:54,861 Yeah. 107 00:06:54,941 --> 00:06:56,661 We didn't have DNA. 108 00:06:56,741 --> 00:07:00,141 Would we have found Suzy alive immediately 109 00:07:00,221 --> 00:07:02,341 because of technology that we've got today? 110 00:07:02,421 --> 00:07:04,101 I think we would have done. 111 00:07:04,181 --> 00:07:07,021 Every single detective on that team, 112 00:07:07,101 --> 00:07:10,101 they had one aim and that was to find Suzy. 113 00:07:10,181 --> 00:07:11,181 Yeah. 114 00:07:11,261 --> 00:07:13,581 It became sort of, it ran our lives really. 115 00:07:13,661 --> 00:07:17,141 That was your main objective in life. 116 00:07:17,221 --> 00:07:20,061 And even today, there's that feeling 117 00:07:20,141 --> 00:07:21,701 we failed them. 118 00:07:21,781 --> 00:07:23,781 We failed the family. 119 00:07:29,341 --> 00:07:32,181 What would you like to see happen now? 120 00:07:32,261 --> 00:07:36,581 My hope would be purely to find where Suzy lays. 121 00:07:36,661 --> 00:07:40,061 Unfortunately, Mr. and Mrs. Lamplugh are now deceased. 122 00:07:40,141 --> 00:07:40,941 Yeah. 123 00:07:41,021 --> 00:07:42,461 But it still leaves siblings. 124 00:07:42,541 --> 00:07:44,861 They need to put Suzy to rest 125 00:07:44,941 --> 00:07:48,581 in the place where they want to rest her. 126 00:07:58,141 --> 00:08:03,141 As a case that remains with him all these years later, 127 00:08:03,341 --> 00:08:05,221 he said that there was a sense of failure 128 00:08:05,301 --> 00:08:07,541 that they didn't find Suzy. 129 00:08:07,621 --> 00:08:11,941 He wanted Suzy's body to be found for the family. 130 00:08:12,021 --> 00:08:15,701 And of course to find out who did it. 131 00:08:16,941 --> 00:08:20,741 Okay, I'm on my way to see Richard Lamplugh, 132 00:08:20,821 --> 00:08:22,341 Suzy's brother. 133 00:08:23,541 --> 00:08:26,141 What are you gonna ask him? 134 00:08:26,221 --> 00:08:28,861 I don't want our investigation to be seen 135 00:08:28,941 --> 00:08:31,781 as intrusive in any way. 136 00:08:31,861 --> 00:08:33,781 And so I'd like to find out from him 137 00:08:33,861 --> 00:08:36,581 what he'd like us to discover. 138 00:08:38,221 --> 00:08:40,861 I hope it goes okay. 139 00:08:51,701 --> 00:08:53,061 She looks very pretty there, doesn't she? 140 00:08:53,141 --> 00:08:54,741 She's beautiful. 141 00:08:54,821 --> 00:08:57,061 That's how I really remember her. 142 00:08:57,141 --> 00:08:59,141 She enjoyed the good times, you know. 143 00:08:59,221 --> 00:09:03,661 And in that time when she, before she disappeared 144 00:09:03,741 --> 00:09:08,741 things were all going well and things seem to be looking up. 145 00:09:08,821 --> 00:09:11,381 And can you remember that time when you suddenly 146 00:09:11,461 --> 00:09:12,781 realized she'd gone missing? 147 00:09:12,861 --> 00:09:14,501 What was that day like? 148 00:09:14,581 --> 00:09:18,981 You don't want to believe that she's, 149 00:09:19,941 --> 00:09:22,701 something's happened to her really bad. 150 00:09:22,781 --> 00:09:26,861 But eventually you sort of think, hmm. 151 00:09:26,941 --> 00:09:29,901 She must, something's really gone wrong here. 152 00:09:29,981 --> 00:09:33,181 Your hopes then die a bit. 153 00:09:33,261 --> 00:09:37,461 But you've still got to try and keep positive. 154 00:09:38,701 --> 00:09:43,381 Were you surprised by the press interest 155 00:09:43,461 --> 00:09:46,701 in Suzy's disappearance? 156 00:09:46,781 --> 00:09:49,261 I was totally surprised. 157 00:09:49,341 --> 00:09:50,621 You know, the amount of press you think, 158 00:09:50,701 --> 00:09:53,301 oh they're bound to... someone's bound to tell you 159 00:09:53,381 --> 00:09:55,701 that they saw her get into a car 160 00:09:55,781 --> 00:09:57,101 or something like this. 161 00:09:57,181 --> 00:10:00,941 And of course, nothing sort of appeared. 162 00:10:01,381 --> 00:10:03,581 So it just goes on and on. 163 00:10:04,101 --> 00:10:05,981 When someone disappears 164 00:10:06,061 --> 00:10:08,661 you don't have a sort of 165 00:10:08,741 --> 00:10:11,581 anywhere to remember as at. 166 00:10:11,661 --> 00:10:13,101 You know, she's somewhere out there 167 00:10:13,181 --> 00:10:15,821 and we don't have anywhere to remember her. 168 00:10:15,901 --> 00:10:20,621 We don't have a grave or didn't have anything like that. 169 00:10:20,701 --> 00:10:23,461 It would be great to have a place 170 00:10:23,541 --> 00:10:28,541 for where we could bury her as such, you know. 171 00:10:28,781 --> 00:10:33,381 I would want her somewhere that we could put her. 172 00:10:33,461 --> 00:10:35,301 So, that's how I feel. 173 00:10:49,261 --> 00:10:51,221 How was Richard? 174 00:10:51,301 --> 00:10:53,741 Well, I'm glad I came to see Richard 175 00:10:53,821 --> 00:10:54,741 because for one thing 176 00:10:54,821 --> 00:10:58,381 it reminds me about why we're doing this. 177 00:10:58,461 --> 00:10:59,301 Of course. 178 00:10:59,381 --> 00:11:01,701 They would like to find Suzy's body 179 00:11:01,781 --> 00:11:05,981 so that they have some place that they controlled 180 00:11:06,061 --> 00:11:08,941 where they could remember their sister. 181 00:11:09,021 --> 00:11:10,021 Of course. 182 00:11:12,621 --> 00:11:15,141 So where did we go from here? 183 00:11:25,941 --> 00:11:27,901 Let's take a look at all the suspects 184 00:11:27,981 --> 00:11:31,861 in Suzy Lamplugh's abduction and murder. 185 00:11:32,541 --> 00:11:36,221 Michael Sams, who is serving a life sentence 186 00:11:36,301 --> 00:11:39,621 for the murder of teenager Julie Dart in 1991. 187 00:11:39,701 --> 00:11:43,261 And the kidnap of Birmingham estate agent Stephanie Slater 188 00:11:43,341 --> 00:11:44,941 in 1992. 189 00:11:45,021 --> 00:11:47,941 Yeah, so obviously it's the mention of Stephanie Slater. 190 00:11:48,021 --> 00:11:50,501 As soon as you say estate agent you get-- 191 00:11:50,581 --> 00:11:51,341 Red flags. 192 00:11:51,421 --> 00:11:53,941 That rings alarm bells for people. 193 00:11:54,021 --> 00:11:56,861 Crucially in the 1970's 194 00:11:56,941 --> 00:12:01,621 Sam's had his right leg amputated because he had cancer. 195 00:12:01,701 --> 00:12:03,661 Remember we've got all this witness testimony 196 00:12:03,741 --> 00:12:05,461 that describes Mr. Kipper. 197 00:12:05,541 --> 00:12:08,421 Nobody has ever said that Mr. Kipper 198 00:12:08,501 --> 00:12:10,701 was walking with a limp. 199 00:12:11,061 --> 00:12:12,781 So I think we can rule him out. 200 00:12:12,861 --> 00:12:13,701 Okay. 201 00:12:16,061 --> 00:12:17,421 Steve Wright. 202 00:12:17,501 --> 00:12:19,341 He is serving a life sentence 203 00:12:19,421 --> 00:12:21,661 for the murder of five women in Suffolk. 204 00:12:21,741 --> 00:12:25,861 And he worked on the QE2 with Suzy in the 1980s. 205 00:12:25,941 --> 00:12:26,941 Yeah, you're quite right. 206 00:12:27,021 --> 00:12:28,581 He knew Susie Lamplugh, 207 00:12:28,661 --> 00:12:32,701 who was also working on the ship at the same time. 208 00:12:32,781 --> 00:12:35,301 And indeed even more significantly 209 00:12:35,381 --> 00:12:38,981 at one stage Wright's ex wife claimed 210 00:12:39,061 --> 00:12:41,021 that he was on shore leave 211 00:12:41,101 --> 00:12:42,941 on the day that Suzy went missing. 212 00:12:43,021 --> 00:12:46,021 Now I know that immediately brings him into the frame 213 00:12:46,101 --> 00:12:49,341 but when the police looked at Quenard's records 214 00:12:49,421 --> 00:12:51,541 they were able to establish that in fact 215 00:12:51,621 --> 00:12:55,581 he was working, he was on board ship on that day. 216 00:12:55,661 --> 00:13:00,861 And therefore, I don't think he's a legitimate suspect. 217 00:13:00,941 --> 00:13:01,781 Okay. 218 00:13:02,861 --> 00:13:07,581 There is one other unnamed guy who briefly dated Suzy 219 00:13:07,661 --> 00:13:09,501 after meeting her in a wine bar. 220 00:13:09,581 --> 00:13:12,181 And apparently he lived on Shorells Road. 221 00:13:12,261 --> 00:13:14,021 And so again, we've got a few red flags. 222 00:13:14,101 --> 00:13:15,341 A few alarm bells. 223 00:13:15,421 --> 00:13:18,901 Shorrels Road and he had previously dated Suzy. 224 00:13:18,981 --> 00:13:21,101 But again, when the police looked 225 00:13:21,181 --> 00:13:23,781 at his movements on the day that she disappears 226 00:13:23,861 --> 00:13:27,181 he has an alibi that's water tight. 227 00:13:27,261 --> 00:13:31,181 And so all of that brings us back to the prime suspect 228 00:13:31,261 --> 00:13:33,621 that the met police themselves name, 229 00:13:33,701 --> 00:13:35,701 which is John Cannan. 230 00:13:39,901 --> 00:13:43,221 Let's look at what we know about him. 231 00:13:43,341 --> 00:13:45,261 He's currently in prison 232 00:13:45,341 --> 00:13:49,741 for the abduction and murder of Shirley Banks 233 00:13:49,821 --> 00:13:53,741 who he abducted and killed in October, 1987, 234 00:13:53,821 --> 00:13:56,021 which is how many months after Suzy disappeared? 235 00:13:56,101 --> 00:13:56,861 15 months. 236 00:13:56,941 --> 00:13:57,901 15 months, now 237 00:13:57,981 --> 00:14:02,861 her body isn't found until April 1988 238 00:14:02,941 --> 00:14:04,541 You know what really strikes me 239 00:14:04,621 --> 00:14:07,981 is how similar Suzy and Shirley looked. 240 00:14:10,541 --> 00:14:12,061 Don't you think? 241 00:14:13,381 --> 00:14:15,461 It's like he had a type. 242 00:14:17,781 --> 00:14:19,701 We also know that he was convicted 243 00:14:19,781 --> 00:14:23,061 of robbery and rape in 1981. 244 00:14:23,141 --> 00:14:26,821 He went into a knitwear shop, robbed it at knife point, 245 00:14:26,901 --> 00:14:31,741 and he raped the 37 year old pregnant shop owner 246 00:14:31,821 --> 00:14:35,021 in front of her mother and 17 month old son. 247 00:14:35,101 --> 00:14:37,621 This is a particularly nasty offense, isn't it? 248 00:14:37,701 --> 00:14:38,621 Truly awful. 249 00:14:38,701 --> 00:14:40,421 And he was given an eight year sentence. 250 00:14:40,501 --> 00:14:41,581 He served five, 251 00:14:41,661 --> 00:14:42,941 and then for the last six months 252 00:14:43,021 --> 00:14:45,421 he was sent to a prison release hostel 253 00:14:45,501 --> 00:14:46,701 at Wormword Scrubs, 254 00:14:46,781 --> 00:14:51,301 which is 4.3 miles from where Suzy worked, 255 00:14:51,381 --> 00:14:53,181 and which gave him ample opportunity 256 00:14:53,261 --> 00:14:56,981 to go to wine bars, to chat up women, 257 00:14:57,061 --> 00:14:59,981 which he actually boasted about to his workmates. 258 00:15:00,061 --> 00:15:03,221 And allegedly one of them was called Crocodile Tears 259 00:15:03,301 --> 00:15:09,061 which was opposite Sturges estate agents where Susie worked. 260 00:15:11,421 --> 00:15:14,701 And there are other pieces of circumstantial evidence 261 00:15:14,781 --> 00:15:18,981 that linked Cannan to Suzy's disappearance. 262 00:15:19,581 --> 00:15:22,781 Look at the photo fit of Mr. Kipper. 263 00:15:23,341 --> 00:15:26,781 How that resembles this photograph of John Cannan. 264 00:15:26,861 --> 00:15:29,741 Yeah, they're so similar, aren't they? 265 00:15:29,821 --> 00:15:30,941 The other thing to remember 266 00:15:31,021 --> 00:15:34,221 that connects Cannan to Suzy's disappearance 267 00:15:34,301 --> 00:15:37,741 is that when he is actually arrested for the murder 268 00:15:37,821 --> 00:15:38,901 of Shirley Banks, 269 00:15:38,981 --> 00:15:42,261 he was driving a black BMW, 270 00:15:43,981 --> 00:15:45,781 which of course crops up in several 271 00:15:45,861 --> 00:15:47,021 of the witness testimonies 272 00:15:47,101 --> 00:15:50,541 about the day that Suzy disappeared. 273 00:15:55,061 --> 00:15:56,821 No, I'm listening. 274 00:15:57,901 --> 00:15:59,421 Hang on, hang on. 275 00:16:00,301 --> 00:16:02,381 Yeah, we're on our way. 276 00:16:09,781 --> 00:16:12,261 One of my contacts has got us all 277 00:16:12,341 --> 00:16:15,381 of the original police tapes when John Cannan 278 00:16:15,461 --> 00:16:17,341 was interviewed while in prison. 279 00:16:17,421 --> 00:16:18,341 That could give us an insight 280 00:16:18,421 --> 00:16:19,181 into Cannan's character. 281 00:16:19,261 --> 00:16:21,061 Well his character perhaps 282 00:16:21,141 --> 00:16:24,141 but not necessarily the murder. 283 00:16:32,221 --> 00:16:33,781 We are in the east 284 00:16:33,861 --> 00:16:36,341 at Hammersmith Police Station. 285 00:16:36,421 --> 00:16:39,461 I am interviewing people who are suspected of murder. 286 00:16:39,541 --> 00:16:40,661 Yes, sir. 287 00:16:40,741 --> 00:16:43,661 It's John David Guys Cannan. 288 00:16:43,741 --> 00:16:46,541 Thank you. 289 00:16:46,621 --> 00:16:48,541 Welcome to my world. 290 00:16:48,621 --> 00:16:50,781 This is what it's like interviewing people 291 00:16:50,861 --> 00:16:54,621 who are suspected of murder 292 00:16:54,701 --> 00:16:59,341 and in his case, already been convicted of murder. 293 00:17:00,621 --> 00:17:02,301 So do you think he's decided 294 00:17:02,381 --> 00:17:05,661 about how he's going to present himself straight away? 295 00:17:05,741 --> 00:17:09,101 Totally, the glasses on his head, 296 00:17:09,181 --> 00:17:11,301 the color turned up, 297 00:17:11,381 --> 00:17:15,141 the John David Guys Cannan, certainly. 298 00:17:15,221 --> 00:17:17,181 You know, he's clearly thought 299 00:17:17,261 --> 00:17:21,181 about who he's going to be in this particular interview. 300 00:17:21,261 --> 00:17:24,621 Does that fit with a man who can take 301 00:17:24,701 --> 00:17:28,141 on the character of Mr. Kipper? 302 00:17:28,221 --> 00:17:31,021 -Totally. 303 00:17:32,501 --> 00:17:36,221 I don't really see, as he's currently saying, 304 00:17:36,301 --> 00:17:38,941 what else there is to be said. 305 00:17:39,021 --> 00:17:41,421 Mrs. Lamplugh thinks I've done it. 306 00:17:41,501 --> 00:17:44,181 She's accused me of doing it. 307 00:17:44,261 --> 00:17:46,861 I've answered every question you've put to me. 308 00:17:46,941 --> 00:17:50,581 I've invited Mrs. Lamplugh herself up to the prison 309 00:17:50,661 --> 00:17:52,941 to have a quiet word to me. 310 00:17:53,021 --> 00:17:55,541 And I've said I'll go on the lie detector test. 311 00:17:55,621 --> 00:17:59,181 The truth drug or anything you wanna put me on. 312 00:17:59,261 --> 00:18:01,341 What did you pick up? 313 00:18:01,421 --> 00:18:03,181 He has no empathy for her. 314 00:18:03,261 --> 00:18:04,701 He blames her. 315 00:18:04,781 --> 00:18:09,581 Think about it as well as performing a distancing effect. 316 00:18:09,661 --> 00:18:13,141 So he uses her title, Mrs. Lamplugh. 317 00:18:13,221 --> 00:18:16,461 Keeps her one stage removed from him. 318 00:18:16,541 --> 00:18:18,221 And then this whole thing about 319 00:18:18,301 --> 00:18:19,781 he's trying to be helpful 320 00:18:19,861 --> 00:18:22,301 I'll take the truth drug. 321 00:18:22,381 --> 00:18:23,661 I'll go in the lie detector test. 322 00:18:23,741 --> 00:18:25,181 But why does he do that? 323 00:18:25,261 --> 00:18:28,541 Well because it has no evidentiary value. 324 00:18:28,621 --> 00:18:30,541 He knows that kind of evidence 325 00:18:30,621 --> 00:18:34,181 from either the truth drug or the lie detector tests 326 00:18:34,261 --> 00:18:36,381 can't be admissible in an English court. 327 00:18:36,461 --> 00:18:38,021 So it's all just smoke and mirrors? 328 00:18:38,101 --> 00:18:38,861 Smoke and mirrors. 329 00:18:38,941 --> 00:18:40,701 It's obfuscation. 330 00:18:43,541 --> 00:18:45,661 Might've done many things wrong in my life. 331 00:18:45,741 --> 00:18:48,701 Things that, believe me, I'm genuinely sorry for. 332 00:18:48,781 --> 00:18:50,381 And one or two I haven't been caught for. 333 00:18:50,461 --> 00:18:52,901 Can you play that again? 334 00:18:52,981 --> 00:18:54,421 And one or two I haven't been caught for. 335 00:18:54,501 --> 00:18:57,661 One or two things that he hasn't been caught for? 336 00:18:57,741 --> 00:18:58,621 Why does he do that? 337 00:18:58,701 --> 00:19:00,621 Well, in my experience, 338 00:19:00,701 --> 00:19:03,461 the truth often slips out. 339 00:19:03,541 --> 00:19:07,061 Often they prove to be the authentic self 340 00:19:07,141 --> 00:19:10,101 talking about crime. 341 00:19:10,181 --> 00:19:12,861 What happens if he didn't do it? 342 00:19:12,941 --> 00:19:14,741 And he is saying, I didn't do it. 343 00:19:14,821 --> 00:19:16,421 I have no connection to this. 344 00:19:16,501 --> 00:19:18,781 The role of the police in those situations 345 00:19:18,861 --> 00:19:21,421 is to find pieces of evidence, 346 00:19:21,501 --> 00:19:23,301 albeit circumstantial pieces, 347 00:19:23,381 --> 00:19:25,301 that can be cross-referenced 348 00:19:25,381 --> 00:19:28,061 against other verifiable sources. 349 00:19:28,141 --> 00:19:31,901 That's how you progress this kind of interview 350 00:19:31,981 --> 00:19:34,501 into being able to make a charge. 351 00:19:34,581 --> 00:19:35,701 What I don't get is 352 00:19:35,781 --> 00:19:36,941 with everything we know 353 00:19:37,021 --> 00:19:38,741 and everything that the police know 354 00:19:38,821 --> 00:19:43,501 how come Cannan hasn't been charged with the murder of Suzy? 355 00:19:45,741 --> 00:19:49,421 I'm trying as I've always tried for 12 years. 356 00:19:49,501 --> 00:19:51,061 To try and help you. 357 00:19:51,141 --> 00:19:52,861 To try and help persuade you 358 00:19:52,941 --> 00:19:54,581 that it wasn't me. 359 00:19:59,621 --> 00:20:02,381 And I've said I'll go on the lie detector test, 360 00:20:02,461 --> 00:20:05,181 the truth drug, anything you would want it to be. 361 00:20:05,261 --> 00:20:08,141 And then it's not evidentiary. 362 00:20:10,421 --> 00:20:15,421 363 00:20:18,701 --> 00:20:19,861 I've managed to get my hands 364 00:20:19,941 --> 00:20:23,381 on an internal police report from 2000. 365 00:20:23,461 --> 00:20:26,541 It's a damning review of the original investigation. 366 00:20:26,621 --> 00:20:31,621 And it says that Cannan wasn't treated as the chief suspect 367 00:20:31,741 --> 00:20:34,981 because the lead officer had fallen out with Suzy's mum 368 00:20:35,061 --> 00:20:39,101 believing she was behind media leaks about the case. 369 00:20:39,181 --> 00:20:41,501 I fixed a meeting with the senior investigating officer 370 00:20:41,581 --> 00:20:43,541 in the second investigation. 371 00:20:43,621 --> 00:20:45,421 Speak to you in a bit, yeah. 372 00:20:45,501 --> 00:20:47,821 Yeah, see you later, bye. 373 00:20:58,061 --> 00:21:00,901 Why was Jim Cannan never treated as a suspect 374 00:21:00,981 --> 00:21:03,061 in the first investigation? 375 00:21:03,141 --> 00:21:04,341 Good question. 376 00:21:04,421 --> 00:21:05,701 I don't know the answer to that 377 00:21:05,781 --> 00:21:08,101 because I never made that decision. 378 00:21:08,181 --> 00:21:11,621 All I can say is certainly when I re-investigated 379 00:21:11,701 --> 00:21:13,381 the Lamplugh case 380 00:21:13,461 --> 00:21:17,821 John Cannan became the only prime suspect. 381 00:21:17,901 --> 00:21:22,861 Why he wasn't interviewed in the first investigation 382 00:21:22,941 --> 00:21:24,021 I don't know. 383 00:21:24,101 --> 00:21:26,181 Why wasn't he put in an ID parade? 384 00:21:26,261 --> 00:21:27,501 I don't know. 385 00:21:27,581 --> 00:21:31,421 Why some of the key witnesses weren't spoken to, 386 00:21:31,501 --> 00:21:32,541 I don't know. 387 00:21:32,621 --> 00:21:35,741 And why basically opportunities were missed? 388 00:21:35,821 --> 00:21:37,021 I don't know. 389 00:21:37,901 --> 00:21:39,381 But I can't get my head around 390 00:21:39,461 --> 00:21:41,701 the thought process behind it. 391 00:21:41,781 --> 00:21:44,341 Certainly there was sufficient evidence back in '86 392 00:21:44,421 --> 00:21:47,861 for Cannan to be treated as a suspect. 393 00:21:50,061 --> 00:21:52,781 Why has Cannan never been charged? 394 00:21:52,861 --> 00:21:54,101 Very good question. 395 00:21:54,181 --> 00:21:55,981 Myself and colleagues submitted a report 396 00:21:56,061 --> 00:21:59,781 to the crown prosecution service in 2003, 397 00:22:00,781 --> 00:22:03,661 but in order for a prosecution to proceed 398 00:22:03,741 --> 00:22:06,181 we needed to convince a judge 399 00:22:06,261 --> 00:22:10,101 that there had been no abuse of process on two counts. 400 00:22:10,181 --> 00:22:13,581 One, he felt that Cannan had been tried 401 00:22:13,661 --> 00:22:15,781 and convicted by the media. 402 00:22:15,861 --> 00:22:18,061 And you can't really argue with that 403 00:22:18,141 --> 00:22:20,101 because there's been massive, 404 00:22:20,181 --> 00:22:23,981 and continues to be massive media coverage of this incident. 405 00:22:24,061 --> 00:22:25,261 And the second was 406 00:22:25,341 --> 00:22:30,301 that the police either had ignored, mislaid, 407 00:22:30,381 --> 00:22:32,941 or did not use clues that they had 408 00:22:33,021 --> 00:22:36,661 in the original investigation in 1986. 409 00:22:38,221 --> 00:22:41,341 In your opinion, did Joan Cannan abduct 410 00:22:41,421 --> 00:22:43,101 and kill Suzy Lamplugh? 411 00:22:43,181 --> 00:22:46,901 In my opinion John Cannan is the only 412 00:22:46,981 --> 00:22:48,221 and he's the prime suspect 413 00:22:48,301 --> 00:22:52,621 for the abduction and murder of Suzy Lamplugh. 414 00:22:55,821 --> 00:22:58,301 Jim said that Cannan wasn't treated as a suspect 415 00:22:58,381 --> 00:23:00,501 in the original investigation. 416 00:23:00,581 --> 00:23:02,301 That the police didn't caution him 417 00:23:02,381 --> 00:23:04,821 before they interviewed him in custody, 418 00:23:04,901 --> 00:23:07,981 that he wasn't put in ID parades, 419 00:23:08,061 --> 00:23:10,301 that they didn't follow up on key witnesses, 420 00:23:10,381 --> 00:23:12,301 and they didn't check his alibi. 421 00:23:12,381 --> 00:23:15,541 Oh, this sounds really muddled and confused, doesn't it? 422 00:23:15,621 --> 00:23:18,621 The CPS said that they weren't going to take him to trial 423 00:23:18,701 --> 00:23:20,621 because of lack of evidence. 424 00:23:20,701 --> 00:23:22,101 Proper process wasn't followed. 425 00:23:22,181 --> 00:23:22,941 And they felt 426 00:23:23,021 --> 00:23:25,781 that he did experience trial by media already. 427 00:23:25,861 --> 00:23:27,861 Trial by media. 428 00:23:27,941 --> 00:23:31,101 That's what he's going to accuse us of doing as well, I bet. 429 00:23:31,181 --> 00:23:32,021 Exactly. 430 00:23:33,461 --> 00:23:35,901 Can he ever be tried for it? 431 00:23:36,061 --> 00:23:37,901 And another thing Jim suggested speaking 432 00:23:37,981 --> 00:23:39,061 to a couple of people 433 00:23:39,141 --> 00:23:42,301 who had come to him with some new evidence recently. 434 00:23:42,381 --> 00:23:45,301 But he was cautious and said 435 00:23:45,381 --> 00:23:47,221 that they might not want to be identified 436 00:23:47,301 --> 00:23:49,061 if we spoke to them. 437 00:23:49,341 --> 00:23:53,781 Well I'm always interested in new information. 438 00:24:05,661 --> 00:24:07,661 He was suggesting we write to John Cannan 439 00:24:07,741 --> 00:24:09,341 and ask him for a meeting. 440 00:24:09,421 --> 00:24:11,861 I am, that's exactly what I'm asking. 441 00:24:11,941 --> 00:24:13,821 Why would we do that? 442 00:24:14,701 --> 00:24:17,741 Well, by asking for a meeting, 443 00:24:17,821 --> 00:24:22,501 we can put to him those pieces of circumstantial evidence 444 00:24:22,581 --> 00:24:25,661 that connect him to the story of Suzy Lamplugh 445 00:24:25,741 --> 00:24:27,181 and ask for an explanation. 446 00:24:27,261 --> 00:24:29,341 But is that right to be giving him a voice 447 00:24:29,421 --> 00:24:31,421 given what he's done? 448 00:24:31,741 --> 00:24:35,781 Well, I suppose if I was the family of a murder victim 449 00:24:35,861 --> 00:24:37,581 I'd say it wasn't. 450 00:24:37,661 --> 00:24:38,541 Right 451 00:24:38,621 --> 00:24:43,181 But my life is about investigations. 452 00:24:43,261 --> 00:24:46,501 And I know that the only way that I can ever 453 00:24:46,581 --> 00:24:51,581 progress an investigation is by talking to that person. 454 00:24:53,621 --> 00:24:55,661 So we could ask him what he remembers 455 00:24:55,741 --> 00:24:59,821 about his experience of life in London at the time, 456 00:24:59,901 --> 00:25:02,541 the social scene and Fulham maybe, 457 00:25:02,621 --> 00:25:04,461 where we know that he would hang out 458 00:25:04,541 --> 00:25:08,341 Perhaps he encountered Suzy by accident. 459 00:25:08,421 --> 00:25:11,421 Could get us closer to the truth. 460 00:25:13,701 --> 00:25:15,541 Yeah, I'm after a favour, 461 00:25:15,621 --> 00:25:16,781 about a Cat A. 462 00:25:18,421 --> 00:25:20,021 Yep, okay. 463 00:25:20,101 --> 00:25:23,221 C-A-N-N-A-N. 464 00:25:24,661 --> 00:25:25,981 Okay, thanks. 465 00:25:41,901 --> 00:25:44,501 We've had a response from John Cannan. 466 00:25:44,581 --> 00:25:48,021 We can't see him, but he's written to us. 467 00:25:48,101 --> 00:25:50,101 I'm on my way. 468 00:25:52,221 --> 00:25:53,981 Thank you for your letter. 469 00:25:54,061 --> 00:25:56,741 The problem as I see it is this. 470 00:25:56,821 --> 00:25:59,261 I was not involved in any way in the disappearance 471 00:25:59,341 --> 00:26:00,141 of Miss Lamplugh. 472 00:26:00,221 --> 00:26:03,981 So I really don't know what I can tell you. 473 00:26:04,501 --> 00:26:06,541 So we wanted to give him a voice. 474 00:26:06,621 --> 00:26:09,421 We wanted to get him to address himself 475 00:26:09,501 --> 00:26:11,861 to some of the circumstantial evidence, 476 00:26:11,941 --> 00:26:15,581 but he says I never met Lamplugh 477 00:26:18,221 --> 00:26:20,141 One of the things that we asked him about 478 00:26:20,221 --> 00:26:22,141 was the Fulham social scene 479 00:26:22,221 --> 00:26:25,061 where he might have acidentally met Suzy Lamplugh. 480 00:26:25,141 --> 00:26:27,181 Yeah he says, "Cannot tell you what the social scene 481 00:26:27,261 --> 00:26:30,461 in London was like, as I was only there for six months 482 00:26:30,541 --> 00:26:32,061 and was in a low paid job 483 00:26:32,141 --> 00:26:35,461 earning around 300 pounds per week. 484 00:26:36,101 --> 00:26:37,581 I lived in a hostel 485 00:26:37,661 --> 00:26:40,341 and didn't enjoy a large circle of friends. 486 00:26:40,421 --> 00:26:44,661 What pubs or eating places I occasionally frequented 487 00:26:44,741 --> 00:26:47,141 were principally local." 488 00:26:48,021 --> 00:26:51,701 That completely divorces him from the Fulham social scene 489 00:26:51,781 --> 00:26:53,901 of the 1980s, doesn't it? 490 00:26:53,981 --> 00:26:57,261 I'm not a yuppie, is what he's saying in this passage. 491 00:26:57,341 --> 00:26:59,501 But look at one of these passages. 492 00:26:59,581 --> 00:27:03,541 "I drove a smart, black BMW 316. 493 00:27:04,781 --> 00:27:09,981 I had beautiful clothes and in those days girls galore." 494 00:27:10,621 --> 00:27:13,941 That is a completely polar opposite description 495 00:27:14,021 --> 00:27:16,701 to how he said that he was living 496 00:27:16,781 --> 00:27:19,981 and what his life was like in previous correspondence. 497 00:27:20,061 --> 00:27:22,661 This description seems to connect him 498 00:27:22,741 --> 00:27:24,901 and there a lot of similarities 499 00:27:24,981 --> 00:27:27,461 between what's being described here 500 00:27:27,541 --> 00:27:29,701 and the MO of Mr. Kipper. 501 00:27:29,781 --> 00:27:31,861 But of course in this passage 502 00:27:31,941 --> 00:27:33,901 he's also lying to us. 503 00:27:33,981 --> 00:27:38,301 "I did not need to abduct women," exclamation mark. 504 00:27:38,381 --> 00:27:42,781 But he was convicted of abducting and murdering 505 00:27:42,861 --> 00:27:44,501 Shirley Banks, so 506 00:27:45,181 --> 00:27:46,501 a complete lie. 507 00:27:46,581 --> 00:27:48,541 We're trying to give him a voice, 508 00:27:48,621 --> 00:27:52,061 and having done so I think I would now like us 509 00:27:52,141 --> 00:27:54,381 to move on back into the criminology. 510 00:27:54,461 --> 00:27:56,701 I'd like us to think about 511 00:27:56,781 --> 00:27:59,781 the abduction and murder of Shirley Banks 512 00:27:59,861 --> 00:28:04,021 and how her body was disposed of by Cannan 513 00:28:04,101 --> 00:28:07,341 after he had killed her to see if that 514 00:28:07,421 --> 00:28:10,741 might be the key to unlocking what happened 515 00:28:10,821 --> 00:28:13,021 to Suzy Lamplugh in 1986. 516 00:28:58,061 --> 00:29:00,061 It's eerie, isn't it? 517 00:29:01,141 --> 00:29:03,221 Standing here where John Cannan disposed 518 00:29:03,301 --> 00:29:05,621 of Shirley Banks's body. 519 00:29:09,101 --> 00:29:12,141 She was lying face down in the ditch. 520 00:29:12,221 --> 00:29:13,821 Her skull had been fractured. 521 00:29:13,901 --> 00:29:16,661 She was naked and she could only be identified 522 00:29:16,741 --> 00:29:19,701 by the jewelry that she was wearing. 523 00:29:19,781 --> 00:29:22,501 It just can't be a coincidence, can it, 524 00:29:22,581 --> 00:29:25,181 that he disposed of her and in a place called 525 00:29:25,261 --> 00:29:26,381 Dead Woman's Ditch. 526 00:29:26,461 --> 00:29:29,021 Well, as far as I'm concerned, 527 00:29:29,981 --> 00:29:31,181 there's no coincidence 528 00:29:31,261 --> 00:29:33,021 when we're dealing with murder. 529 00:29:33,101 --> 00:29:36,981 He's chosen the site very deliberately. 530 00:29:37,061 --> 00:29:38,661 He's playing a game. 531 00:29:38,741 --> 00:29:40,941 And what does that tell us about him? 532 00:29:41,021 --> 00:29:44,541 He likes to think of himself as one step ahead. 533 00:29:44,621 --> 00:29:48,501 Catch me if you can is really what he's saying. 534 00:29:48,581 --> 00:29:50,701 So he's playing games with the police? 535 00:29:50,781 --> 00:29:51,541 Yeah, absolutely. 536 00:29:51,621 --> 00:29:53,821 We've seen him interviewed by the police. 537 00:29:53,901 --> 00:29:55,341 We saw what he was like 538 00:29:55,421 --> 00:29:58,541 when he was in an interview situation. 539 00:29:58,621 --> 00:30:03,141 Effectively he was like an upstanding member of the public. 540 00:30:03,221 --> 00:30:04,261 When we know he wasn't. 541 00:30:04,341 --> 00:30:05,661 And he even said 542 00:30:05,741 --> 00:30:08,821 that there were crimes that he hadn't been caught for yet. 543 00:30:08,901 --> 00:30:11,901 Which crimes was he alluding to? 544 00:30:13,661 --> 00:30:14,541 I think there's quite a lot 545 00:30:14,621 --> 00:30:16,901 we can tell about Cannan 546 00:30:16,981 --> 00:30:19,181 from what he does to Shirley Banks. 547 00:30:19,261 --> 00:30:22,981 We know that he abducted her on the 7th of October 1987. 548 00:30:23,061 --> 00:30:25,421 And we know that she called into work 549 00:30:25,501 --> 00:30:28,221 on the 8th of October and said that she was ill. 550 00:30:28,301 --> 00:30:31,181 So he's kept her for a whole night alive. 551 00:30:31,261 --> 00:30:33,781 Yeah, he likes to be with his victim. 552 00:30:33,861 --> 00:30:35,821 And can you imagine what it must have been like 553 00:30:35,901 --> 00:30:37,661 for Shirley Banks that day? 554 00:30:37,741 --> 00:30:40,221 That time that she's spending with Cannan, 555 00:30:40,301 --> 00:30:42,421 because all that time she would be 556 00:30:42,501 --> 00:30:45,781 hoping and praying that she would be able to return 557 00:30:45,861 --> 00:30:47,301 to her husband. 558 00:30:47,901 --> 00:30:50,501 All the time Cannan would have been enjoying 559 00:30:50,581 --> 00:30:54,861 every single moment that he had power and control 560 00:30:54,941 --> 00:30:55,781 over her. 561 00:30:57,021 --> 00:31:00,341 Criminologists would say that he was processed focused, 562 00:31:00,421 --> 00:31:02,061 not act focus. 563 00:31:02,141 --> 00:31:03,501 And what does that mean? 564 00:31:03,581 --> 00:31:08,581 That he's enjoying the sense of being with a victim 565 00:31:08,701 --> 00:31:10,741 he's then going to kill. 566 00:31:10,821 --> 00:31:11,821 So he enjoys it? 567 00:31:11,901 --> 00:31:12,661 He enjoys it. 568 00:31:12,741 --> 00:31:15,621 If he was act focused and he was simply interested 569 00:31:15,701 --> 00:31:16,701 in the kill, 570 00:31:16,781 --> 00:31:18,741 he'd kill and move on. 571 00:31:18,821 --> 00:31:22,621 That's not what floats his boat, criminologically. 572 00:31:22,701 --> 00:31:26,541 He likes to be with his victim. 573 00:31:26,621 --> 00:31:30,421 And you know, we're not hypothesizing here. 574 00:31:30,501 --> 00:31:33,141 This is definitive. 575 00:31:33,221 --> 00:31:37,581 This is what we know John Cannan is capable of doing. 576 00:31:37,661 --> 00:31:39,301 And you know what? 577 00:31:39,461 --> 00:31:40,621 Could he have been capable 578 00:31:40,701 --> 00:31:43,821 of doing something similar with Suzy Lamplugh? 579 00:31:48,821 --> 00:31:51,181 Dead Woman's Ditch has got me thinking. 580 00:31:51,261 --> 00:31:53,741 We need to use geo profiling. 581 00:31:53,821 --> 00:31:55,901 My friend works with the police, 582 00:31:55,981 --> 00:31:58,221 and she uses locations of crimes 583 00:31:58,301 --> 00:32:01,141 to predict where an offender might live 584 00:32:01,221 --> 00:32:03,261 and helps the police narrow 585 00:32:03,341 --> 00:32:05,341 down the pool of suspects. 586 00:32:05,421 --> 00:32:07,901 But for us, maybe she could use the science 587 00:32:07,981 --> 00:32:09,501 of geo profiling 588 00:32:09,581 --> 00:32:10,741 to help predict-- 589 00:32:10,821 --> 00:32:13,541 Where the murderer could have disposed of Suzy's body. 590 00:32:13,621 --> 00:32:16,141 That's what I'm hoping for. 591 00:32:21,301 --> 00:32:22,981 So what does the sign say? 592 00:32:23,061 --> 00:32:26,501 Geographic profiling involves the reconstruction 593 00:32:26,581 --> 00:32:29,701 and interpretation of an offender's mental map. 594 00:32:29,781 --> 00:32:31,501 There's two components to that process. 595 00:32:31,581 --> 00:32:33,421 One is an objective analysis 596 00:32:33,501 --> 00:32:36,341 that's based on a statistical analysis of the point pattern 597 00:32:36,421 --> 00:32:38,621 that an offender leaves. 598 00:32:38,701 --> 00:32:39,861 And then the second part of that 599 00:32:39,941 --> 00:32:42,101 is a more subjective analysis 600 00:32:42,181 --> 00:32:44,101 looking at the underlying environment, 601 00:32:44,181 --> 00:32:45,501 interpreting that as the way, 602 00:32:45,581 --> 00:32:47,341 perhaps very much the way an offender would 603 00:32:47,421 --> 00:32:49,021 when he was trying to make decisions 604 00:32:49,101 --> 00:32:50,781 about where to offend next 605 00:32:50,861 --> 00:32:53,461 or where to dispose of the body. 606 00:32:53,541 --> 00:32:57,421 In terms of Suzy, how have you gone about 607 00:32:57,501 --> 00:33:01,381 trying to think about Cannan's mental map 608 00:33:01,461 --> 00:33:04,901 and the spaces and areas he's comfortable with? 609 00:33:04,981 --> 00:33:06,901 What you'll see here is this is the results 610 00:33:06,981 --> 00:33:10,661 of the geographic profile overlaid on the map. 611 00:33:10,741 --> 00:33:11,581 To interpret this 612 00:33:11,661 --> 00:33:13,021 we look at the colors. 613 00:33:13,101 --> 00:33:15,581 This red area is the highest probability 614 00:33:15,661 --> 00:33:18,861 that an offender has a base here, okay. 615 00:33:18,941 --> 00:33:20,501 And then from there 616 00:33:20,581 --> 00:33:24,541 these colors represent decreasing, likelihoods. 617 00:33:24,621 --> 00:33:27,821 So Sam, we've got a group of offenses 618 00:33:27,901 --> 00:33:30,221 in the Birmingham area. 619 00:33:30,301 --> 00:33:32,501 A group of offenses in the London area. 620 00:33:32,581 --> 00:33:35,221 And again, offenses in the Bristol area. 621 00:33:35,301 --> 00:33:36,621 Yeah, what I'm focusing on 622 00:33:36,701 --> 00:33:39,101 are those locations that were relevant 623 00:33:39,181 --> 00:33:41,661 at the time of Suzy's disappearance. 624 00:33:41,741 --> 00:33:45,381 My starting point is Cannan's home base, 625 00:33:45,461 --> 00:33:46,701 Sutton Coldfield. 626 00:33:46,781 --> 00:33:49,581 We know he had been released 627 00:33:49,661 --> 00:33:51,901 from his bail hostel a few days earlier 628 00:33:51,981 --> 00:33:54,981 and may have actually moved back to this address. 629 00:33:55,061 --> 00:33:56,461 And that's where his mother lived. 630 00:33:56,541 --> 00:33:57,261 -Is that right? -That's where 631 00:33:57,341 --> 00:33:59,381 his mother lived, exactly. 632 00:33:59,461 --> 00:34:03,181 The London home base is his pre-release hostel 633 00:34:03,261 --> 00:34:06,021 when he was released from Wormwood Scrubs. 634 00:34:06,101 --> 00:34:09,781 That places him in the vicinity of where Suzy disappeared. 635 00:34:13,301 --> 00:34:14,861 So I can already see 636 00:34:14,941 --> 00:34:18,741 you've got the M4 really highlighted. 637 00:34:18,821 --> 00:34:19,861 Why the M4? 638 00:34:22,461 --> 00:34:25,341 We know that his mental map is biased 639 00:34:25,421 --> 00:34:27,861 towards the west country. 640 00:34:32,141 --> 00:34:34,341 The M4 leads to Bristol. 641 00:34:36,941 --> 00:34:38,581 And also you can get onto the M40 642 00:34:38,661 --> 00:34:42,301 from the M4 that leads up to Birmingham. 643 00:34:45,781 --> 00:34:48,141 This is the ordinance survey map of the area. 644 00:34:48,221 --> 00:34:52,101 So you see, we've got the M4 coming in here. 645 00:34:53,781 --> 00:34:55,541 This will get him out of London. 646 00:34:55,621 --> 00:34:57,581 And then he would start to be able to 647 00:34:57,661 --> 00:35:00,781 identify suitable locations. 648 00:35:03,421 --> 00:35:05,141 The area that you've highlighted 649 00:35:05,221 --> 00:35:08,981 as I can see is the first where we've got a green space 650 00:35:09,061 --> 00:35:12,621 and some river canal network. 651 00:35:12,701 --> 00:35:14,301 We know looking at his past behavior 652 00:35:14,381 --> 00:35:19,141 that he savored water in the locations that he used. 653 00:35:21,021 --> 00:35:22,781 For me, it was about looking 654 00:35:22,861 --> 00:35:26,501 along this route for the first suitable location 655 00:35:26,581 --> 00:35:29,381 that fell within our red high probability area 656 00:35:29,461 --> 00:35:31,981 that fit that suitability. 657 00:35:35,341 --> 00:35:37,741 We can never put an X on a map 658 00:35:37,821 --> 00:35:41,101 and say that's where you need to start digging. 659 00:35:41,181 --> 00:35:46,501 However, the area I think is of interest is this area here. 660 00:35:46,581 --> 00:35:48,941 See, it has the River Brent running through it 661 00:35:49,021 --> 00:35:51,901 as well as the M4 dissecting it. 662 00:35:52,541 --> 00:35:53,301 It's very accessible. 663 00:35:53,381 --> 00:35:55,421 So bringing a car in here 664 00:35:55,501 --> 00:35:59,381 you can get really quite close to the park. 665 00:36:00,421 --> 00:36:01,221 It's fascinating. 666 00:36:01,301 --> 00:36:03,701 It's like a geographical post-mortem. 667 00:36:03,781 --> 00:36:07,301 Is there anything else we can find out? 668 00:36:09,741 --> 00:36:13,341 So this is the area we should concentrate in? 669 00:36:13,421 --> 00:36:14,421 Absolutely. 670 00:36:14,501 --> 00:36:17,821 That is where I suggest we really focus our attention. 671 00:36:19,381 --> 00:36:22,461 Sorry. Okay. 672 00:36:23,061 --> 00:36:27,501 Yes, the people you were telling me about, yeah? 673 00:36:28,901 --> 00:36:31,341 That was Jim Dickey, the detective who said 674 00:36:31,421 --> 00:36:33,821 that there might be some people with new information 675 00:36:33,901 --> 00:36:36,621 and he's just said that they will talk to us, 676 00:36:36,701 --> 00:36:38,621 and they want to meet in Brentford 677 00:36:38,701 --> 00:36:43,581 which is actually within the geo profiling hotspot. 678 00:37:02,981 --> 00:37:06,181 The two people with new information are willing to talk, 679 00:37:06,261 --> 00:37:09,701 but they don't want to be identified. 680 00:37:12,141 --> 00:37:17,061 Okay, Mills, I've got the train and the cars on my right 681 00:37:17,141 --> 00:37:19,261 I'm passing a storage unit which I don't know 682 00:37:19,341 --> 00:37:22,661 if that existed in 1986. 683 00:37:22,741 --> 00:37:24,781 Am I in slightly the right area? 684 00:37:24,861 --> 00:37:27,501 Where would you like me to go? 685 00:37:28,861 --> 00:37:32,061 David, if you, the way you're walking, keep going forward 686 00:37:32,141 --> 00:37:34,661 and you'll see a big bridge. 687 00:37:36,101 --> 00:37:37,181 Keep going. 688 00:37:39,421 --> 00:37:42,221 Can I ask you while David is walking the path, 689 00:37:42,301 --> 00:37:47,621 would you mind telling me about Dave and how you know Dave? 690 00:37:47,861 --> 00:37:50,741 We used to child mind together in the same area. 691 00:37:50,821 --> 00:37:56,021 And we were all neighbors and really all got on very well. 692 00:37:56,421 --> 00:38:00,701 Will you tell us what Dave saw that morning in 1986? 693 00:38:00,781 --> 00:38:02,861 Yes, Dave was on his way to work 694 00:38:02,941 --> 00:38:04,181 and he would leave very early in the morning, 695 00:38:04,261 --> 00:38:06,141 about five o'clock. 696 00:38:09,821 --> 00:38:11,461 As he was walking down a tow path 697 00:38:11,541 --> 00:38:14,301 he saw a man coming towards him 698 00:38:14,581 --> 00:38:18,101 carrying quite a heavy load on wheels. 699 00:38:20,821 --> 00:38:24,461 As he passed him, Dave heard a splash, 700 00:38:24,541 --> 00:38:26,661 -he looked around 701 00:38:26,741 --> 00:38:30,661 and saw the man running with nothing in his hand. 702 00:38:30,741 --> 00:38:33,581 So after his day's work, Dave went to the police station 703 00:38:33,661 --> 00:38:34,981 to report what he'd seen. 704 00:38:35,061 --> 00:38:36,501 And they were quite dismissive? 705 00:38:36,581 --> 00:38:39,021 Dismissive with him. 706 00:38:39,101 --> 00:38:41,261 It wasn't until 1989, 707 00:38:41,341 --> 00:38:44,581 it was going to be a trial for the Shirley Banks murder, 708 00:38:44,661 --> 00:38:47,101 that he saw a picture in the Evening Standard 709 00:38:47,181 --> 00:38:49,781 of the man that was gonna stand for trial 710 00:38:49,861 --> 00:38:53,181 and said, "That looks like the man." 711 00:38:54,221 --> 00:38:56,941 Because he wanted to be absolutely sure, 712 00:38:57,021 --> 00:38:59,181 he said to his wife, " I'm going down to the trial 713 00:38:59,261 --> 00:39:00,861 and Exeter crown court." 714 00:39:00,941 --> 00:39:03,781 He actually saw John Cannan being sentenced 715 00:39:03,861 --> 00:39:05,781 and taken down from the dock. 716 00:39:05,861 --> 00:39:07,981 And he came back and said, "That is definitely 717 00:39:08,061 --> 00:39:12,581 the man that I saw on the canal path that morning." 718 00:39:15,461 --> 00:39:18,061 After he came back from Exeter, he went to the police again 719 00:39:18,141 --> 00:39:19,061 and told them this 720 00:39:19,141 --> 00:39:21,901 and came back so frustrated, because again he said, 721 00:39:21,981 --> 00:39:23,021 "They're not listening to me. 722 00:39:23,101 --> 00:39:25,501 I don't think they believe me." 723 00:39:25,581 --> 00:39:28,141 That must've been devastating for him. 724 00:39:28,221 --> 00:39:32,221 He had no reason to not tell the truth. 725 00:39:32,301 --> 00:39:34,861 When we spoke to Sylvia, his wife, she'd say, 726 00:39:34,941 --> 00:39:36,941 "I'm fed up with him talking about it 727 00:39:37,021 --> 00:39:38,861 because he's driving me mad with it. 728 00:39:38,941 --> 00:39:41,941 That's all he's talking about." 729 00:39:43,101 --> 00:39:46,621 It haunted him for the rest of his life. 730 00:39:53,181 --> 00:39:54,941 I can see a bridge. 731 00:39:55,021 --> 00:39:56,541 I can see a bridge through the trees. 732 00:39:56,621 --> 00:39:57,501 Is this it? 733 00:39:57,581 --> 00:39:58,821 Yes, that's the bridge. 734 00:39:58,901 --> 00:39:59,701 That's the bridge, David, 735 00:39:59,781 --> 00:40:01,741 it should be near a bend. 736 00:40:01,821 --> 00:40:04,541 It's about where you are, David. 737 00:40:04,621 --> 00:40:06,741 There's evidence of steps there 738 00:40:06,821 --> 00:40:09,341 which would all be built up by now. 739 00:40:09,421 --> 00:40:10,261 Yeah. 740 00:40:11,221 --> 00:40:13,741 That's where we think that he dropped the bag. 741 00:40:13,821 --> 00:40:17,901 That's were Dave thought he dropped the bag. 742 00:40:21,421 --> 00:40:26,421 743 00:40:34,741 --> 00:40:36,901 Were these women believable? 744 00:40:36,981 --> 00:40:38,981 Totally credible. 745 00:40:39,061 --> 00:40:42,221 As I believe was Dave, and Jim Dickie thinks so too. 746 00:40:42,301 --> 00:40:46,421 So if we accept the story that Dave tells 747 00:40:46,501 --> 00:40:47,821 -as being accurate. -Yeah. 748 00:40:47,901 --> 00:40:50,301 He sees somebody who identifies 749 00:40:50,381 --> 00:40:53,181 as John Cannan carrying a suitcase 750 00:40:53,261 --> 00:40:54,661 that he deposits in the water. 751 00:40:54,741 --> 00:40:55,501 Is that the story? 752 00:40:55,581 --> 00:40:57,061 Yes, and they didn't do anything about it. 753 00:40:57,141 --> 00:40:59,621 He went to the police about three times apparently. 754 00:40:59,701 --> 00:41:01,941 Well, I suppose all of this proves something 755 00:41:02,021 --> 00:41:04,101 I've always said about cold cases. 756 00:41:04,181 --> 00:41:06,941 You make them hot again if you 757 00:41:07,021 --> 00:41:08,941 shake the tree proverbially 758 00:41:09,021 --> 00:41:11,341 and something falls from the branches. 759 00:41:11,421 --> 00:41:15,181 New witnesses come forward, new evidence emerges, 760 00:41:15,261 --> 00:41:18,221 forensic techniques develop that you can test 761 00:41:18,301 --> 00:41:22,701 against old exhibits that you've collected. 762 00:41:23,541 --> 00:41:27,741 If Cannan was that person that Dave saw 763 00:41:27,821 --> 00:41:29,741 that's credible and has to be taken seriously. 764 00:41:29,821 --> 00:41:33,501 It affected the whole of Dave's life, apparently. 765 00:41:33,581 --> 00:41:36,581 That's how much he believed that the person that he saw 766 00:41:36,661 --> 00:41:40,221 on that tow path was John Cannan. 767 00:41:40,301 --> 00:41:42,101 The bit that's still confusing to me 768 00:41:42,181 --> 00:41:46,621 is that the canal is only four foot deep. 769 00:41:46,701 --> 00:41:48,701 I'm not so sure what we can interpret 770 00:41:48,781 --> 00:41:51,821 about a suitcase and four feet of water. 771 00:41:51,901 --> 00:41:52,661 Would it be found? 772 00:41:52,741 --> 00:41:53,901 Wouldn't it be found? 773 00:41:53,981 --> 00:41:55,701 Could it have sunk into the mud? 774 00:41:55,781 --> 00:41:56,541 I don't know. 775 00:41:56,621 --> 00:41:58,021 I mean I think we're going to have to ask 776 00:41:58,101 --> 00:41:59,941 a forensic pathologist 777 00:42:00,021 --> 00:42:02,101 and surely you know some forensic pathologists 778 00:42:02,181 --> 00:42:02,981 we could phone? 779 00:42:03,061 --> 00:42:05,701 I've got a phone full of them. 780 00:42:05,981 --> 00:42:06,741 Hang on. 781 00:42:06,821 --> 00:42:07,821 Let me see. 782 00:42:14,261 --> 00:42:15,981 Hi, it's Emelia. 783 00:42:16,061 --> 00:42:17,781 I need your help. 784 00:42:19,581 --> 00:42:21,141 Yes, potentially. 785 00:42:21,221 --> 00:42:22,661 A body in water. 786 00:42:24,141 --> 00:42:27,021 Pretty much for three decades. 787 00:42:27,941 --> 00:42:29,461 In Brentford, London 788 00:42:29,541 --> 00:42:31,861 by the Grand Union canal. 789 00:42:39,501 --> 00:42:40,581 How usual is it 790 00:42:40,661 --> 00:42:45,301 for someone to dispose of a body in a river or canal? 791 00:42:45,501 --> 00:42:46,301 It happens. 792 00:42:46,381 --> 00:42:47,461 You don't have to dig a hole. 793 00:42:47,541 --> 00:42:48,781 You don't have to spend hours, you know 794 00:42:48,861 --> 00:42:50,541 digging a grave somewhere, finding somewhere, 795 00:42:50,621 --> 00:42:52,221 you know where the rivers are. 796 00:42:52,301 --> 00:42:53,701 You just throw it into the river. 797 00:42:53,781 --> 00:42:55,781 Water covers over it. 798 00:42:57,861 --> 00:42:59,621 When you say water covers over it 799 00:42:59,701 --> 00:43:01,141 does that mean that also 800 00:43:01,221 --> 00:43:03,101 that a lot of the forensic evidence 801 00:43:03,181 --> 00:43:05,221 that might be gathered gets destroyed? 802 00:43:05,301 --> 00:43:08,021 If we're talking about sort of in there 803 00:43:08,101 --> 00:43:10,861 it'll sink down to the bottom. 804 00:43:13,101 --> 00:43:14,701 There's not much oxygen around. 805 00:43:14,781 --> 00:43:17,181 You start to get what's it, suppolification 806 00:43:17,261 --> 00:43:18,301 or adepacy formation 807 00:43:18,381 --> 00:43:20,741 where basically the body turns to soap. 808 00:43:20,821 --> 00:43:23,101 Body fat becomes very hard. 809 00:43:23,181 --> 00:43:26,181 So a body could stay in the water for years, you know, 810 00:43:26,261 --> 00:43:28,421 and if it's not dredged or anything, 811 00:43:28,501 --> 00:43:29,421 eventually it will break down 812 00:43:29,501 --> 00:43:31,341 and then you'll get just the bones. 813 00:43:31,421 --> 00:43:34,301 The skull, pelvis, femurs, 814 00:43:34,381 --> 00:43:35,501 the number of vertebra. 815 00:43:35,581 --> 00:43:37,021 They, they tend to stay around. 816 00:43:37,101 --> 00:43:41,301 Smaller bones get sort of washed downstream. 817 00:43:41,821 --> 00:43:43,781 If you've got muddy, salty water 818 00:43:43,861 --> 00:43:44,941 not much oxygen, 819 00:43:45,021 --> 00:43:47,101 you could have a few big bones there 820 00:43:47,181 --> 00:43:49,421 lasting 30, 40 years. 821 00:43:49,501 --> 00:43:50,781 I mean, we occasionally get bodies 822 00:43:50,861 --> 00:43:53,021 coming out of the Thames from Tudor times. 823 00:43:53,101 --> 00:43:55,021 Well, let's talk about that. 824 00:43:55,101 --> 00:43:58,541 If there were human remains in the canal, 825 00:43:58,621 --> 00:44:01,021 how will that help the police 826 00:44:01,101 --> 00:44:04,661 identify who the victim has been? 827 00:44:05,701 --> 00:44:07,301 If you've got the skull and you've got the teeth 828 00:44:07,381 --> 00:44:09,541 you can get DNA out of the teeth, particularly. 829 00:44:09,621 --> 00:44:11,261 And then you've got a match against relatives. 830 00:44:11,341 --> 00:44:12,261 You can identify someone 831 00:44:12,341 --> 00:44:14,701 by scouring through all the old dental records. 832 00:44:14,781 --> 00:44:16,221 If you know who the person is, 833 00:44:16,301 --> 00:44:18,381 relatives perhaps around you can get their DNA 834 00:44:18,461 --> 00:44:19,981 and match their DNA to that. 835 00:44:20,061 --> 00:44:22,701 Yeah, you could identify a body. 836 00:44:22,781 --> 00:44:24,661 Theoretically, could the body 837 00:44:24,741 --> 00:44:27,621 of Suzy Lamplugh still be in this stretch of the canal? 838 00:44:27,701 --> 00:44:29,221 If you've got the silt there 839 00:44:29,301 --> 00:44:31,901 and it hasn't been touched over the last 13 years, 840 00:44:31,981 --> 00:44:35,261 theoretically they could be, yeah, yeah. 841 00:44:35,341 --> 00:44:37,221 So it could be worth? 842 00:44:38,341 --> 00:44:39,901 Dredging the canal. 843 00:44:39,981 --> 00:44:40,941 Would you say? 844 00:44:41,021 --> 00:44:42,141 Not for me to say, but yeah. 845 00:44:42,221 --> 00:44:44,221 There could be a sort of quite a decent amount 846 00:44:44,301 --> 00:44:48,101 of human remains still in the, in the canal. 847 00:44:48,181 --> 00:44:49,021 Gosh. 848 00:44:52,381 --> 00:44:55,101 Millie, the body of Suzy Lamplugh 849 00:44:55,181 --> 00:44:59,061 might be within this stretch of the canal. 850 00:45:15,581 --> 00:45:17,581 We have made some significant discoveries, 851 00:45:17,661 --> 00:45:18,741 haven't we? 852 00:45:19,541 --> 00:45:20,741 The geo profiling, 853 00:45:20,821 --> 00:45:24,261 the very first time that that has been done on this case. 854 00:45:24,341 --> 00:45:26,301 That geo profiling crosses 855 00:45:26,381 --> 00:45:30,621 with new information that we've uncovered. 856 00:45:30,701 --> 00:45:33,021 And so we're coming to this spot. 857 00:45:33,101 --> 00:45:35,501 We've heard a forensic pathologist say 858 00:45:35,581 --> 00:45:38,261 that well, it's worth dredging here. 859 00:45:38,341 --> 00:45:40,941 And I'm glad that we're ending by thinking about 860 00:45:41,021 --> 00:45:42,381 Suzy Lamplugh. 861 00:45:42,461 --> 00:45:44,221 Because for me that's quite personal. 862 00:45:44,301 --> 00:45:47,821 I mean, I knew Diana her mother. 863 00:45:47,901 --> 00:45:49,021 I shared a stage 864 00:45:49,101 --> 00:45:52,701 with her talking to young women about personal safety. 865 00:45:52,781 --> 00:45:56,061 And I think if she were still alive 866 00:45:56,141 --> 00:45:59,541 I could look Diana in the face and say 867 00:45:59,621 --> 00:46:03,341 we've helped move this investigation on, 868 00:46:03,421 --> 00:46:05,021 uncovered evidence 869 00:46:05,101 --> 00:46:07,021 about the prime suspect, 870 00:46:07,101 --> 00:46:09,341 and might even have an answer 871 00:46:09,421 --> 00:46:12,501 to where Suzy's remains could be.