1 00:00:05,341 --> 00:00:07,981 [ominous music] 2 00:00:16,101 --> 00:00:19,301 [bike bell ringing] 3 00:00:19,381 --> 00:00:21,981 [car rumbling] 4 00:00:32,461 --> 00:00:33,901 [Emilia] Two young boys disappeared 5 00:00:33,981 --> 00:00:37,181 off the streets of Chelmsley Wood 6 00:00:37,261 --> 00:00:39,461 on Boxing Day night, 1996. 7 00:00:42,781 --> 00:00:44,701 Never to be seen again. 8 00:00:49,461 --> 00:00:53,141 [David] Patrick and David, just 11 and 13. 9 00:00:55,381 --> 00:00:57,141 And 24 years later, 10 00:00:57,861 --> 00:01:02,301 we still don't know what happened to those boys. 11 00:01:08,021 --> 00:01:10,701 [eerie singing] 12 00:01:40,981 --> 00:01:43,661 [ominous music] 13 00:01:59,061 --> 00:02:00,901 [Emilia] Patrick Warren and David Spencer 14 00:02:00,981 --> 00:02:05,821 disappeared in Birmingham in 1996, on Boxing Day evening. 15 00:02:05,901 --> 00:02:07,981 They were only 11 and 13, 16 00:02:08,061 --> 00:02:10,581 and they became known as the Milk Carton kids. 17 00:02:10,661 --> 00:02:12,301 [David] Yeah, because these were 18 00:02:12,381 --> 00:02:14,901 the first missing children ever to be placed 19 00:02:14,981 --> 00:02:16,781 on milk cartons in this country. 20 00:02:16,861 --> 00:02:18,021 [Emilia] And I know that this is a case 21 00:02:18,101 --> 00:02:20,421 that has always bothered you, hasn't it? 22 00:02:20,501 --> 00:02:22,581 [David] Well, I started to teach in Birmingham 23 00:02:22,661 --> 00:02:24,501 the following year. 24 00:02:24,581 --> 00:02:28,141 But more importantly, their bodies have never been found, 25 00:02:28,221 --> 00:02:30,261 and nobody's ever been caught. 26 00:02:30,341 --> 00:02:31,501 Despite there being two 27 00:02:31,581 --> 00:02:35,941 major police investigations in 1996 and 2006. 28 00:02:36,021 --> 00:02:36,781 [David] So, I want to know 29 00:02:36,861 --> 00:02:39,501 why the police investigation wasn't successful, 30 00:02:39,581 --> 00:02:43,381 and therefore, I think we've got to re-examine this case 31 00:02:43,461 --> 00:02:45,461 to see what happened to the boys. 32 00:02:45,541 --> 00:02:47,421 And the best place to start 33 00:02:47,501 --> 00:02:50,261 is by talking to their family, 34 00:02:50,341 --> 00:02:52,061 who I know still live in the local area. 35 00:02:52,141 --> 00:02:54,501 And we can look back at newspaper reports, 36 00:02:54,581 --> 00:02:57,101 and see if they throw up any new witnesses 37 00:02:57,181 --> 00:02:58,301 or new information. 38 00:02:58,381 --> 00:03:00,381 And we know that the last place 39 00:03:00,461 --> 00:03:04,701 that the boys were seen alive was at a petrol station 40 00:03:04,781 --> 00:03:08,381 in Chelmsley Wood, near to where they lived. 41 00:03:08,461 --> 00:03:10,941 [Emilia] Which is now a KFC. 42 00:03:19,421 --> 00:03:21,741 [footsteps] 43 00:03:34,701 --> 00:03:37,701 [tense piano music] 44 00:03:39,301 --> 00:03:41,501 [Emilia] Feisty duo. 45 00:03:41,581 --> 00:03:44,301 Shoplifting, they'd been in scrapes. 46 00:03:44,381 --> 00:03:46,141 Teenage runaways. 47 00:03:48,621 --> 00:03:50,781 What? "Detective inspector Derek Biggs 48 00:03:50,861 --> 00:03:53,181 of West Midlands Police said there was no reason 49 00:03:53,261 --> 00:03:57,461 to believe any harm had come to the pair." 50 00:03:57,541 --> 00:04:00,661 Inspector David Chapman of West Midlands police said, 51 00:04:00,741 --> 00:04:03,821 "They're both streetwise lads." 52 00:04:04,221 --> 00:04:05,741 They're 11 and 13. 53 00:04:07,061 --> 00:04:09,741 [phone ringing] 54 00:04:11,221 --> 00:04:12,061 [David] Hi, Emilia. 55 00:04:12,141 --> 00:04:14,981 So basically, I've read all these articles from the time. 56 00:04:15,061 --> 00:04:15,821 I don't know. 57 00:04:15,901 --> 00:04:19,341 I feel confused about the way the case was reported on, 58 00:04:19,421 --> 00:04:21,181 and I wonder what was going on 59 00:04:21,261 --> 00:04:22,861 with the police investigation. 60 00:04:22,941 --> 00:04:24,861 [David] That's interesting. 61 00:04:24,941 --> 00:04:27,421 [Emilia] The way the boys are described in the press, 62 00:04:27,501 --> 00:04:30,181 like the phrases they use, the words they use, 63 00:04:30,261 --> 00:04:33,261 it's like they were asking for it. 64 00:04:33,341 --> 00:04:34,701 You know, despite their characters, 65 00:04:34,781 --> 00:04:35,781 whatever their characters were, 66 00:04:35,861 --> 00:04:39,301 they're still vulnerable children. 67 00:04:40,701 --> 00:04:44,061 Could they have fended for themselves at that age? 68 00:04:44,141 --> 00:04:45,421 I don't think so. 69 00:04:45,501 --> 00:04:47,301 [David] No, they couldn't. 70 00:04:47,381 --> 00:04:50,501 [Emilia] And it's heartbreaking where their mums 71 00:04:50,581 --> 00:04:53,581 are making the appeals for the boys. 72 00:04:55,981 --> 00:04:58,661 "Two tearful Midland Mums today pleaded 73 00:04:58,741 --> 00:05:01,621 with their missing sons, "Please come home."" 74 00:05:01,701 --> 00:05:04,181 [dog barking] 75 00:05:19,501 --> 00:05:22,021 [Christine] Brings tears. 76 00:05:33,261 --> 00:05:34,381 [David] What age was he here? 77 00:05:34,461 --> 00:05:35,181 [Christine] 11. 78 00:05:35,261 --> 00:05:36,221 [David] 11. 79 00:05:36,301 --> 00:05:37,581 He's not a pushover. 80 00:05:37,661 --> 00:05:40,461 No, definitely not. You can see he's not a wimp, look. 81 00:05:40,541 --> 00:05:42,461 He can look after himself. 82 00:05:42,541 --> 00:05:45,181 [David] What sort of personality did he have? 83 00:05:45,261 --> 00:05:48,941 [Lee] Just a little mischievous kid, like. 84 00:05:50,301 --> 00:05:53,181 A lovable rogue, isn't it? 85 00:05:53,261 --> 00:05:56,061 What impact has losing your older brother had on you? 86 00:05:56,141 --> 00:05:58,141 It's ruined my life. 87 00:05:58,221 --> 00:05:58,981 [David] In what way? 88 00:05:59,061 --> 00:06:00,541 In my head ... 89 00:06:00,621 --> 00:06:03,101 I can't even explain. In here. 90 00:06:04,701 --> 00:06:06,821 [Christine] I'll never get over it. Never. 91 00:06:06,901 --> 00:06:09,581 I want closure of this. I want my son home, 92 00:06:09,661 --> 00:06:11,661 so I can put him to rest. 93 00:06:11,741 --> 00:06:15,381 I want something I can properly grieve. 94 00:06:19,781 --> 00:06:22,861 [David] Lee, can you just explain about Patrick and David, 95 00:06:22,941 --> 00:06:25,181 on the night of Boxing Day? 96 00:06:26,861 --> 00:06:29,261 Paddy said he was stopping here. 97 00:06:29,341 --> 00:06:32,541 David said he was stopping there. 98 00:06:32,621 --> 00:06:36,861 They both at some point gone to the petrol station. 99 00:06:39,061 --> 00:06:42,581 Two boys, and a bike. 100 00:06:45,341 --> 00:06:48,341 [David] When were the boys first reported as missing? 101 00:06:48,421 --> 00:06:51,261 [Christine] Andy, Paddy's brother, 102 00:06:51,341 --> 00:06:55,261 came here saying, "Is Paddy here?" 103 00:06:55,341 --> 00:06:58,221 I Said, "No, David, said he was staying at yours." 104 00:06:58,301 --> 00:07:00,541 He says, "Well, he hasn't turned up." 105 00:07:00,621 --> 00:07:02,421 [Lee] Andy then reported to the police 106 00:07:02,501 --> 00:07:05,261 that David and Paddy didn't turn up to his house. 107 00:07:05,341 --> 00:07:07,861 10, half 10, something like that, right? 108 00:07:07,941 --> 00:07:10,261 The police didn't come here till half four. 109 00:07:10,341 --> 00:07:11,101 In the morning? 110 00:07:11,181 --> 00:07:12,101 [Lee] In the morning. 111 00:07:12,181 --> 00:07:13,901 They thought the kids were here. 112 00:07:13,981 --> 00:07:15,261 I said, "They're not here." 113 00:07:15,341 --> 00:07:18,341 "Can we check the bedroom?" I said, "Course you can." 114 00:07:18,421 --> 00:07:20,901 Then they left, they says, "Okay." 115 00:07:20,981 --> 00:07:22,861 Never heard nothing then, for three days. 116 00:07:22,941 --> 00:07:23,821 Three days. 117 00:07:23,901 --> 00:07:26,381 [Christine] Three days it took them to come out. 118 00:07:26,461 --> 00:07:28,021 [David] Did they think this was about two boys 119 00:07:28,101 --> 00:07:29,261 that were running away? Did they think 120 00:07:29,341 --> 00:07:30,621 they were missing people? 121 00:07:30,701 --> 00:07:33,221 Did they think there was a vulnerability going on here? 122 00:07:33,301 --> 00:07:34,861 Because he had a bit of a criminal record, 123 00:07:34,941 --> 00:07:36,221 and he was knew by the police, 124 00:07:36,301 --> 00:07:38,541 it was like, "He'll come home when he's hungry." 125 00:07:38,621 --> 00:07:39,461 [David] Mhmm. 126 00:07:39,541 --> 00:07:41,101 [Lee] That was said to me, when I was a little boy, 127 00:07:41,181 --> 00:07:43,341 by a police officer. 128 00:07:43,421 --> 00:07:45,421 [Christine] No way would he have left me, 129 00:07:45,501 --> 00:07:49,261 and he wouldn't have seen me go through all this torture 130 00:07:49,341 --> 00:07:52,181 without contacting me, if he'd just run away. 131 00:07:52,261 --> 00:07:53,741 He would have come back. 132 00:07:53,821 --> 00:07:58,581 I reckon the night he went missing was the night he died. 133 00:07:59,781 --> 00:08:02,541 [David] When did the detectives, the CID branch, 134 00:08:02,621 --> 00:08:03,381 get involved? 135 00:08:03,461 --> 00:08:07,301 Three months, I think it was, after they went missing. 136 00:08:07,381 --> 00:08:08,141 Three months? 137 00:08:08,221 --> 00:08:09,501 Three months. 138 00:08:09,581 --> 00:08:11,701 They were still, for the first three months, 139 00:08:11,781 --> 00:08:14,141 treating this as a missing persons case? 140 00:08:14,221 --> 00:08:15,981 Why isn't it a murder case? 141 00:08:16,061 --> 00:08:17,701 Why isn't it a double murder case, 142 00:08:17,781 --> 00:08:20,621 for two kids from Chelmsley Wood? Why isn't it that? 143 00:08:20,701 --> 00:08:22,221 You never thought it was taken seriously? 144 00:08:22,301 --> 00:08:23,061 [Christine] No. 145 00:08:23,141 --> 00:08:24,701 [David] What would the police have had to have done 146 00:08:24,781 --> 00:08:27,101 to demonstrate they were taking it seriously? 147 00:08:27,181 --> 00:08:28,901 Their job properly. 148 00:08:28,981 --> 00:08:31,221 Just that, isn't it? You know what they're paid to do. 149 00:08:31,301 --> 00:08:33,421 Come in of a morning, there's reports of a boy. 150 00:08:33,501 --> 00:08:34,701 "Right, someone's reported a boy," 151 00:08:34,781 --> 00:08:36,861 so then you put him as a missing boy, 152 00:08:36,941 --> 00:08:38,421 then you inform ... 153 00:08:38,501 --> 00:08:40,301 All your police are coming on the day, 154 00:08:40,381 --> 00:08:42,581 and then they all look for the boy. 155 00:08:42,661 --> 00:08:45,981 Just genuinely their job. 156 00:08:47,141 --> 00:08:51,061 Who is he? Who is he? Who is the guy in that station 157 00:08:51,141 --> 00:08:55,381 that decided that it was not important for my brother 158 00:08:55,461 --> 00:08:56,861 to be dealt with properly? 159 00:08:56,941 --> 00:08:57,661 Yeah. 160 00:08:57,741 --> 00:08:58,501 [Christine] It's an urgent- 161 00:08:58,581 --> 00:08:59,341 It's disgusting. 162 00:08:59,421 --> 00:09:03,221 Police done nothing right at the start. 163 00:09:03,301 --> 00:09:06,941 They are still doing nothing right now. 164 00:09:07,541 --> 00:09:10,541 I think the police are not interested in this case. 165 00:09:10,621 --> 00:09:14,301 Ask me why, I don't know. I don't know the reason, 166 00:09:14,381 --> 00:09:16,261 but there is a reason. 167 00:09:16,341 --> 00:09:20,661 There's a reason they're not interested in it. 168 00:09:21,221 --> 00:09:22,061 Why? 169 00:09:24,581 --> 00:09:27,181 [sombre music] 170 00:09:38,941 --> 00:09:42,021 [bike bells ringing] 171 00:09:46,541 --> 00:09:48,821 [Emilia] You know Birmingham so well. 172 00:09:48,901 --> 00:09:50,741 Tell me about Chelmsley Wood. 173 00:09:50,821 --> 00:09:52,581 [David] Chelmsley Wood's a council estate. 174 00:09:52,661 --> 00:09:57,141 Chelmsley Wood's people who are holding down probably two, 175 00:09:57,221 --> 00:10:02,101 perhaps three jobs to get themselves through the month. 176 00:10:02,181 --> 00:10:06,541 And I worry, did David and Patrick not get 177 00:10:06,621 --> 00:10:08,421 the policing they deserved, 178 00:10:08,501 --> 00:10:10,741 because they lived in Chelmsley Wood? 179 00:10:10,821 --> 00:10:14,421 Did that have an impact on the policing investigation? 180 00:10:14,501 --> 00:10:15,501 You think it did? 181 00:10:15,581 --> 00:10:18,821 [David] People imagine that all murders 182 00:10:18,901 --> 00:10:20,341 are treated the same, 183 00:10:20,421 --> 00:10:24,541 but there's no way that David and Patrick 184 00:10:24,621 --> 00:10:26,781 were ideal victims. 185 00:10:26,861 --> 00:10:29,981 [Emilia] What is an ideal victim? 186 00:10:30,061 --> 00:10:32,861 [David] Frankly, a middle-class white girl, 187 00:10:32,941 --> 00:10:34,821 with blonde hair and blue eyes. 188 00:10:34,901 --> 00:10:37,741 That case will get lots of media attention. 189 00:10:37,821 --> 00:10:38,621 And if it gets lots- 190 00:10:38,701 --> 00:10:40,061 [Emilia] Just from the way that they look? 191 00:10:40,141 --> 00:10:44,741 Just from their class, their gender, their ethnicity, 192 00:10:45,661 --> 00:10:48,501 they will get more attention from the media, 193 00:10:48,581 --> 00:10:52,181 which in turn puts more pressure on the police 194 00:10:52,261 --> 00:10:56,541 to solve that case, as opposed to the cases of other kids 195 00:10:56,621 --> 00:10:57,381 that might go missing. 196 00:10:57,461 --> 00:10:58,301 [Emilia] I think that's shocking. 197 00:10:58,381 --> 00:10:59,301 [David] But that's the reality. 198 00:10:59,381 --> 00:11:01,141 That's the reality of murder, 199 00:11:01,221 --> 00:11:03,701 that I see all the time in my work, 200 00:11:03,781 --> 00:11:07,261 because of the C-word: class. 201 00:11:07,341 --> 00:11:11,341 And Chelmsley Wood is a working class area. 202 00:11:17,021 --> 00:11:19,661 [ominous music] 203 00:11:23,181 --> 00:11:25,821 [phone dialling] 204 00:11:29,901 --> 00:11:31,781 [David] Hello, this is professor David Wilson. 205 00:11:31,861 --> 00:11:35,341 I can't take your call, but please leave me a message. 206 00:11:35,421 --> 00:11:38,741 [Emilia] David, I've been asking around in Chelmsley Wood, 207 00:11:38,821 --> 00:11:42,421 and I've found a witness who still lives in the area. 208 00:11:42,501 --> 00:11:45,661 Ellen Morgan. She was the petrol station attendant 209 00:11:45,741 --> 00:11:48,021 on the night the boys went missing. 210 00:11:48,101 --> 00:11:49,941 The police have spoken to her twice. 211 00:11:50,021 --> 00:11:52,581 She might've been the last person to see them. 212 00:11:52,661 --> 00:11:54,701 I'll let you know what I find out. 213 00:11:54,781 --> 00:11:57,141 Do you remember Patrick and David well? 214 00:11:57,221 --> 00:11:58,581 Were they familiar faces to you? 215 00:11:58,661 --> 00:11:59,661 They was, yes. 216 00:11:59,741 --> 00:12:01,861 [Emilia] Why did they come to the petrol station 217 00:12:01,941 --> 00:12:02,741 that night? 218 00:12:02,821 --> 00:12:04,021 [Ellen] Because they was hungry. 219 00:12:04,101 --> 00:12:05,461 [Emilia] And did you chat with them that night? 220 00:12:05,541 --> 00:12:06,461 I talked to them a bit, and I said, 221 00:12:06,541 --> 00:12:08,261 "Well I'll buy you a pocket of biscuits." 222 00:12:08,341 --> 00:12:10,941 They went and sat over there on the steps. 223 00:12:11,021 --> 00:12:12,941 That used to be steps coming down. 224 00:12:13,021 --> 00:12:14,421 Could you see them from the petrol station? 225 00:12:14,501 --> 00:12:16,981 Yeah. Sitting there, eating the biscuits. 226 00:12:17,061 --> 00:12:19,381 [Emilia] Did you notice what happened after that? 227 00:12:19,461 --> 00:12:20,301 Where they went? 228 00:12:20,381 --> 00:12:23,701 [Ellen] No, they just disappeared. 229 00:12:31,461 --> 00:12:33,021 [Emilia] Tell me about the petrol station 230 00:12:33,101 --> 00:12:34,101 where you worked. 231 00:12:34,181 --> 00:12:35,701 Well, the pumps was here. 232 00:12:35,781 --> 00:12:37,061 Yeah. 233 00:12:37,141 --> 00:12:40,341 And then further up here, it's the shop. 234 00:12:40,421 --> 00:12:43,741 You just have to serve with the hatch over night time. 235 00:12:43,821 --> 00:12:44,861 It's about here. 236 00:12:44,941 --> 00:12:49,181 And that's how you could see where the boys were. 237 00:12:50,941 --> 00:12:53,261 And then how did you communicate with people who were- 238 00:12:53,341 --> 00:12:54,341 [Ellen] It was a microphone. 239 00:12:54,421 --> 00:12:55,341 Right. 240 00:12:55,421 --> 00:12:56,661 [Ellen] And you could hear anything what was ... 241 00:12:56,741 --> 00:12:59,061 Anybody walking around. 242 00:13:00,621 --> 00:13:02,381 [Emilia] So it was a quiet night, 243 00:13:02,461 --> 00:13:05,021 and a microphone would have picked up any noise. 244 00:13:05,101 --> 00:13:08,301 So anything, any sounds of screams- 245 00:13:08,381 --> 00:13:09,141 [Ellen] Yes. 246 00:13:09,221 --> 00:13:11,021 Or a struggle would have been picked up by the microphone, 247 00:13:11,101 --> 00:13:12,661 and you would have heard it that night? 248 00:13:12,741 --> 00:13:14,581 [Ellen] Yes, yes. 249 00:13:14,661 --> 00:13:16,181 Yes, I would have. 250 00:13:25,821 --> 00:13:28,461 This is about where the bin area was, 251 00:13:28,541 --> 00:13:31,181 where Patrick left his bike. 252 00:13:32,181 --> 00:13:33,261 In this area. 253 00:13:34,581 --> 00:13:36,781 [Emilia] So Paddy's bike was left here? 254 00:13:36,861 --> 00:13:37,661 [Ellen] Yes. 255 00:13:37,741 --> 00:13:39,981 Everybody said he really wanted that bike. 256 00:13:40,061 --> 00:13:42,781 His dad bought it for him, I think, the day before. 257 00:13:42,861 --> 00:13:44,901 [Emilia] And you didn't see him with it over there? 258 00:13:44,981 --> 00:13:46,061 [Ellen] No. 259 00:13:47,061 --> 00:13:49,381 [Emilia] And what about CCTV at that time? 260 00:13:49,461 --> 00:13:51,141 Did the petrol station have CCTV? 261 00:13:51,221 --> 00:13:53,861 [Ellen] They had a video recorder. 262 00:13:53,941 --> 00:13:56,541 What it recorded, I don't know. 263 00:13:56,621 --> 00:14:00,101 Do you know if anyone ever came to check the CCTV? 264 00:14:00,181 --> 00:14:02,501 To my knowledge, they didn't. 265 00:14:02,581 --> 00:14:04,301 But it must've picked up something. 266 00:14:04,381 --> 00:14:05,141 [Ellen] Well, you would think so. 267 00:14:05,221 --> 00:14:07,701 You would think so, but I don't know, you know? 268 00:14:07,781 --> 00:14:11,541 Nobody ever told me anything about that. 269 00:14:35,061 --> 00:14:36,221 [egg cracking] 270 00:14:36,301 --> 00:14:37,301 [doorbell ringing] 271 00:14:37,381 --> 00:14:38,261 Thanks, Roisin. 272 00:14:38,341 --> 00:14:39,341 Thank you. 273 00:14:40,341 --> 00:14:42,021 Thanks so much. Fab. 274 00:14:43,141 --> 00:14:47,901 This red Apollo bike was given to Paddy for Christmas. 275 00:14:47,981 --> 00:14:50,861 So it was like a treasured present. 276 00:14:51,701 --> 00:14:53,261 [David] The bike's really important then, 277 00:14:53,341 --> 00:14:56,701 because if they had gone missing, 278 00:14:56,781 --> 00:14:58,141 if they were running away, 279 00:14:58,221 --> 00:14:59,821 presumably they would have taken the bike. 280 00:14:59,901 --> 00:15:03,701 And also wouldn't the fact that Paddy had left his bike 281 00:15:03,781 --> 00:15:05,541 and not come back to pick it up, 282 00:15:05,621 --> 00:15:07,901 wouldn't that raise a massive alarm 283 00:15:07,981 --> 00:15:11,741 that something had happened to the boys? 284 00:15:12,381 --> 00:15:16,821 Crucially, there was a microphone on the forecourt side 285 00:15:16,901 --> 00:15:18,781 of the petrol station 286 00:15:18,861 --> 00:15:21,141 that would have picked up if there had been 287 00:15:21,221 --> 00:15:24,061 any noises of screams of the boys 288 00:15:24,141 --> 00:15:27,101 or anything that suggested a struggle. 289 00:15:27,181 --> 00:15:29,821 [David] David was a talented boxer. 290 00:15:29,901 --> 00:15:31,981 This is a boy that would have shouted and screamed 291 00:15:32,061 --> 00:15:34,701 and resisted being abducted into a car. 292 00:15:34,781 --> 00:15:36,741 And given what you've discovered, 293 00:15:36,821 --> 00:15:39,861 this tells us a wee bit about what might have happened 294 00:15:39,941 --> 00:15:41,381 on that date. 295 00:15:41,461 --> 00:15:42,861 [Emilia] I read an article about it actually, 296 00:15:42,941 --> 00:15:44,661 and I think I've tracked down someone 297 00:15:44,741 --> 00:15:47,741 who might be able to tell us some more. 298 00:15:47,821 --> 00:15:49,261 Leda Reynolds. 299 00:15:54,981 --> 00:15:56,581 [David] Tell me about Leda Reynolds. 300 00:15:56,661 --> 00:15:57,661 She's a local journalist? 301 00:15:57,741 --> 00:16:00,381 Yes, who's written extensively about the case, 302 00:16:00,461 --> 00:16:03,421 and she suggests that the boys were abducted 303 00:16:03,501 --> 00:16:05,421 and she even names a suspect. 304 00:16:05,501 --> 00:16:06,581 [David] Who's that? 305 00:16:06,661 --> 00:16:08,301 He's a guy called Brian Field 306 00:16:08,381 --> 00:16:10,781 who was living in the area at the time, 307 00:16:10,861 --> 00:16:12,021 and Leda has even met him, 308 00:16:12,101 --> 00:16:14,061 because they used to drink in the same pub. 309 00:16:14,141 --> 00:16:15,901 Well, maybe we should go to that pub. 310 00:16:15,981 --> 00:16:17,701 Unfortunately, the pub is long gone, 311 00:16:17,781 --> 00:16:21,021 but I have arranged to meet her nearby. 312 00:16:29,981 --> 00:16:31,181 [Emilia] So, clearly, this is the case, 313 00:16:31,261 --> 00:16:34,061 that you have cared about 314 00:16:34,141 --> 00:16:36,341 and you care about David and Patrick 315 00:16:36,421 --> 00:16:37,181 and what happened to them, 316 00:16:37,261 --> 00:16:39,461 because you've been involved with it for so long. 317 00:16:39,541 --> 00:16:41,261 The case had always bothered me. 318 00:16:41,341 --> 00:16:43,021 And I'm really glad you're both investigating it, 319 00:16:43,101 --> 00:16:44,981 because something needs to be done. 320 00:16:45,061 --> 00:16:48,621 Leda, tell me a little more about this man, Brian Field. 321 00:16:48,701 --> 00:16:50,341 [Leda] Brian Field was a gardener, 322 00:16:50,421 --> 00:16:52,461 and he'd lived in Solihull. 323 00:16:52,541 --> 00:16:54,981 When I went to the pub, he was chatting, he was laughing. 324 00:16:55,061 --> 00:16:57,941 We were taking part in a quiz. 325 00:16:58,021 --> 00:16:58,781 Have a look at this. 326 00:16:58,861 --> 00:16:59,621 [Emilia] A video of him. 327 00:16:59,701 --> 00:17:01,661 [Leda] It's from a documentary he appeared in. 328 00:17:01,741 --> 00:17:03,141 [Emilia] He's doing a strip tease. 329 00:17:03,221 --> 00:17:04,341 [Leda] In the middle of the pub. 330 00:17:04,421 --> 00:17:06,021 Oh my God. 331 00:17:06,101 --> 00:17:08,821 [Leda] So when I find out later on 332 00:17:08,901 --> 00:17:11,821 that he'd actually been convicted in 2001 333 00:17:11,901 --> 00:17:16,261 for the rape and murder of a school boy called Roy Tutill, 334 00:17:16,341 --> 00:17:18,381 I was really shocked. 335 00:17:18,461 --> 00:17:21,941 In 1968, Roy Tutill, he was on his way home from school. 336 00:17:22,021 --> 00:17:25,501 He went to Kingston Grammar School in Surrey. 337 00:17:25,581 --> 00:17:28,501 Unfortunately for Roy that day, Brian Field, 338 00:17:28,581 --> 00:17:31,621 who worked and lived in the area was driving past, 339 00:17:31,701 --> 00:17:36,141 offered him a lift, and raped and strangled him, 340 00:17:36,221 --> 00:17:38,541 before dumping his body. 341 00:17:39,101 --> 00:17:42,101 [Emilia] And how did Brian Field get caught 342 00:17:42,181 --> 00:17:44,541 for the murder of Roy Tutill? 343 00:17:44,621 --> 00:17:47,421 [Leda] He was stopped for drink driving 344 00:17:47,501 --> 00:17:49,701 and they took a swab from his cheek. 345 00:17:49,781 --> 00:17:53,461 Surrey Police run it through the DNA database, 346 00:17:53,541 --> 00:17:56,221 and it flagged up with a semen stain 347 00:17:56,301 --> 00:17:59,461 left on the clothing of Roy Tutill. 348 00:17:59,541 --> 00:18:00,541 [David] Leda, what happened 349 00:18:00,621 --> 00:18:02,501 after Brian Field's conviction? 350 00:18:02,581 --> 00:18:04,781 [Leda] Surrey Police had contacted different forces 351 00:18:04,861 --> 00:18:06,101 around the country, 352 00:18:06,181 --> 00:18:08,941 to say, "You need to be looking at this man." 353 00:18:09,021 --> 00:18:12,581 25 other child disappearances should be investigated. 354 00:18:12,661 --> 00:18:15,621 And as part of those, one of them should be 355 00:18:15,701 --> 00:18:17,701 the milk carton kids. 356 00:18:20,141 --> 00:18:23,261 Patrick Warren and David Spencer. 357 00:18:23,341 --> 00:18:25,901 [sombre music] 358 00:18:27,821 --> 00:18:29,181 [Emilia] Then what happened? 359 00:18:29,261 --> 00:18:30,821 [Leda] Well, I moved away from Birmingham. 360 00:18:30,901 --> 00:18:32,501 I went to work somewhere else. 361 00:18:32,581 --> 00:18:35,221 When I got back in 2006, 362 00:18:35,301 --> 00:18:39,261 I wanted to find out what happened to the boys. 363 00:18:39,341 --> 00:18:40,901 So I rang West Midlands Police, 364 00:18:40,981 --> 00:18:43,781 and they told me that the still a missing persons- 365 00:18:43,861 --> 00:18:45,221 Missing persons? 366 00:18:45,301 --> 00:18:47,021 [Leda] Missing persons inquiry. 367 00:18:47,101 --> 00:18:49,061 So for five years, 368 00:18:49,141 --> 00:18:50,941 they hadn't been looking at Brian Field 369 00:18:51,021 --> 00:18:54,181 as a possible suspect for the kidnap and murder 370 00:18:54,261 --> 00:18:55,981 of these children. 371 00:18:56,061 --> 00:18:59,301 So I built up this dossier, took it to the police. 372 00:18:59,381 --> 00:19:01,741 There was me and some people from the paper 373 00:19:01,821 --> 00:19:05,021 that was working at the Birmingham Mail. 374 00:19:05,101 --> 00:19:08,301 I said, "You need to look at Brian Field." 375 00:19:08,381 --> 00:19:10,141 Two weeks went by, 376 00:19:10,221 --> 00:19:12,701 and I was told that there'd be a press conference. 377 00:19:12,781 --> 00:19:14,341 And they announced there that, 378 00:19:14,421 --> 00:19:16,421 "We believe they have been murdered. 379 00:19:16,501 --> 00:19:19,501 Brian Field is one of a number of avenues 380 00:19:19,581 --> 00:19:23,261 we're investigating, about the missing boys." 381 00:19:23,341 --> 00:19:24,581 [David] And what happened? 382 00:19:24,661 --> 00:19:25,501 [Leda] He's at prison. 383 00:19:25,581 --> 00:19:27,941 They picked him up, they brought him to a police station 384 00:19:28,021 --> 00:19:30,101 in Birmingham and he was interviewed twice 385 00:19:30,181 --> 00:19:33,701 under caution about the missing boys. 386 00:19:36,221 --> 00:19:39,541 And he denied all knowledge of the boys. 387 00:19:42,621 --> 00:19:44,421 West Midlands Police said they were searching 388 00:19:44,501 --> 00:19:47,741 a number of sites in the hunt for the boys. 389 00:19:47,821 --> 00:19:48,621 [David] And so presumably, 390 00:19:48,701 --> 00:19:50,701 they did not find ... 391 00:19:50,781 --> 00:19:51,501 [Leda] They found nothing. 392 00:19:51,581 --> 00:19:52,421 Yeah. 393 00:19:59,221 --> 00:20:01,701 [tense music] 394 00:20:13,701 --> 00:20:16,381 [machine beeps] 395 00:20:17,861 --> 00:20:18,861 Thank you. 396 00:20:21,781 --> 00:20:24,741 [David] We have to look more closely at Brian Field 397 00:20:24,821 --> 00:20:27,901 in the story of David and Paddy, 398 00:20:27,981 --> 00:20:29,141 and here are two pictures of him 399 00:20:29,221 --> 00:20:30,581 at the milk marketing board, 400 00:20:30,661 --> 00:20:35,661 and then when he's arrested for the drunk driving charges. 401 00:20:35,821 --> 00:20:38,821 I want to know more about Field's offending background. 402 00:20:38,901 --> 00:20:40,181 What do you have? 403 00:20:40,261 --> 00:20:42,621 Brian Field has been convicted six times 404 00:20:42,701 --> 00:20:45,461 of sexual offences against teenage boys. 405 00:20:45,541 --> 00:20:47,061 Six times. 406 00:20:47,141 --> 00:20:48,421 Mhmm. 407 00:20:48,501 --> 00:20:49,661 [Emilia] His first conviction was 408 00:20:49,741 --> 00:20:53,461 for gross indecency at Wrexham, in 1969. 409 00:20:53,541 --> 00:20:56,821 In 1972, he was convicted for a second time 410 00:20:56,901 --> 00:20:59,541 for indecent assault at Aberdeenshire. 411 00:20:59,621 --> 00:21:02,061 And then his third conviction was for gross indecency 412 00:21:02,141 --> 00:21:03,061 at Oswestry. 413 00:21:03,141 --> 00:21:04,621 [David] So back in the Midlands. 414 00:21:04,701 --> 00:21:06,941 [Emilia] The fourth conviction in 1983 415 00:21:07,021 --> 00:21:10,021 was for two counts of buggery at Shrewsbury, 416 00:21:10,101 --> 00:21:12,861 and his fifth conviction in 1986 417 00:21:12,941 --> 00:21:15,541 was a double kidnapping at Oswestry. 418 00:21:15,621 --> 00:21:17,941 Oh, now that's significant. 419 00:21:18,021 --> 00:21:19,741 It seems to me, a double kidnapping, 420 00:21:19,821 --> 00:21:21,981 I want to know more about that offence, I think. 421 00:21:22,061 --> 00:21:25,461 So, they were two teenagers, 13 and 16, 422 00:21:26,981 --> 00:21:28,741 and they got into Field's car. 423 00:21:28,821 --> 00:21:30,421 They'd hitched a lift, 424 00:21:30,501 --> 00:21:32,981 and when he didn't go towards their home 425 00:21:33,061 --> 00:21:34,941 and took a different direction, 426 00:21:35,021 --> 00:21:36,381 they tried to get out of the car 427 00:21:36,461 --> 00:21:39,421 and he then threatened them physically. 428 00:21:39,501 --> 00:21:40,821 But they managed to jump out 429 00:21:40,901 --> 00:21:42,181 of the moving car. 430 00:21:42,261 --> 00:21:43,941 [David] I don't know of any other offender 431 00:21:44,021 --> 00:21:47,781 who's ever been convicted of attempting 432 00:21:48,421 --> 00:21:50,701 to abduct two teenagers at the same time. 433 00:21:50,781 --> 00:21:52,101 I don't know of any other offender. 434 00:21:52,181 --> 00:21:55,061 That would be really unusual for me. 435 00:21:55,141 --> 00:21:56,501 [Emilia] And the sixth conviction 436 00:21:56,581 --> 00:22:01,581 was for the murder and sexual assault of Roy Tutill in 1968. 437 00:22:02,421 --> 00:22:03,781 [David] So we know he's been offending 438 00:22:03,861 --> 00:22:05,541 as far back as 1968, 439 00:22:06,781 --> 00:22:09,981 but there's also something significant there. 440 00:22:10,061 --> 00:22:15,021 There are no charges between 1986 and 1999, 441 00:22:16,181 --> 00:22:18,941 when he's going to get caught drunk driving. 442 00:22:19,021 --> 00:22:21,821 This kind of offender, in my experience, 443 00:22:21,901 --> 00:22:23,781 doesn't stop offending. 444 00:22:23,861 --> 00:22:26,021 So what other crimes might he have been committing 445 00:22:26,101 --> 00:22:27,981 during that period? 446 00:22:28,701 --> 00:22:30,381 [Emilia] We know that he was questioned 447 00:22:30,461 --> 00:22:33,541 about the disappearance of David and Patrick 448 00:22:33,621 --> 00:22:35,901 who vanished in 1996. 449 00:22:35,981 --> 00:22:38,061 Field was living near the area at the time, 450 00:22:38,141 --> 00:22:40,661 and in 2006, he was questioned 451 00:22:40,741 --> 00:22:42,301 about the boys' disappearance, 452 00:22:42,381 --> 00:22:44,181 but he's never been charged, 453 00:22:44,261 --> 00:22:46,701 presumably through lack of evidence. 454 00:22:46,781 --> 00:22:49,501 And the case is still active. 455 00:22:49,581 --> 00:22:52,261 Three other people were arrested 456 00:22:52,341 --> 00:22:55,461 in connection to the disappearance of David and Paddy, 457 00:22:55,541 --> 00:22:58,061 but no charges were ever made. 458 00:22:59,181 --> 00:23:00,461 [David] When we think about that, 459 00:23:00,541 --> 00:23:02,861 we've got somebody who's already committed a murder 460 00:23:02,941 --> 00:23:05,701 and a number of child sexual offences. 461 00:23:05,781 --> 00:23:08,101 I think we've got to conclude Brian Field 462 00:23:08,181 --> 00:23:10,181 is the prime suspect. 463 00:23:10,741 --> 00:23:15,221 Let's see if we can find out more about Field in this area 464 00:23:15,301 --> 00:23:17,781 post-1986. 465 00:23:40,261 --> 00:23:42,941 [phone ringing] 466 00:23:44,101 --> 00:23:45,381 [Emilia] I've been doing some research 467 00:23:45,461 --> 00:23:47,981 into other offences Field might have been 468 00:23:48,061 --> 00:23:50,941 connected to in the Birmingham area. 469 00:23:51,021 --> 00:23:55,981 There is another case that has been linked to Brian Field 470 00:23:57,061 --> 00:24:01,981 of another boy who was found hanged in 1984. 471 00:24:03,061 --> 00:24:03,781 This boy- 472 00:24:03,861 --> 00:24:04,621 [David] Another boy? 473 00:24:04,701 --> 00:24:07,781 Another boy. This boy's name was Mark Billington. 474 00:24:07,861 --> 00:24:09,621 I did some research, 475 00:24:09,701 --> 00:24:13,541 and his parents believe that Brian Field 476 00:24:13,621 --> 00:24:17,421 was responsible for their son's death. 477 00:24:17,501 --> 00:24:19,661 There were other suspects arrested in connection 478 00:24:19,741 --> 00:24:21,301 with Mark Billington's murder, 479 00:24:21,381 --> 00:24:25,221 but nobody has been charged and it remains unsolved. 480 00:24:25,301 --> 00:24:27,781 So Brian Field has not been ruled out. 481 00:24:27,861 --> 00:24:31,821 [David] So, this is a completely different murder 482 00:24:31,901 --> 00:24:34,101 that he's suspected of, 483 00:24:34,181 --> 00:24:38,101 not involving Paddy and David Spencer? 484 00:24:38,181 --> 00:24:38,981 Yes. 485 00:24:42,941 --> 00:24:45,941 [bike bell ringing] 486 00:24:53,141 --> 00:24:55,101 [Emilia] I've managed to track down Mark Billington's 487 00:24:55,181 --> 00:24:59,181 parents and sister. They still live in the area. 488 00:25:09,221 --> 00:25:10,501 [Winifred] This is our son Mark. 489 00:25:10,581 --> 00:25:13,701 He was 13 when this picture was taken. 490 00:25:13,781 --> 00:25:15,941 He was a kind, gentle boy. 491 00:25:17,061 --> 00:25:21,701 When the police said that Mark had killed himself, 492 00:25:22,341 --> 00:25:24,221 nobody believed it. 493 00:25:26,261 --> 00:25:28,461 [Emilia] So there were two inquests- 494 00:25:28,541 --> 00:25:29,301 [Roy] Yes. 495 00:25:29,381 --> 00:25:32,061 And the first inquest into Mark's death 496 00:25:32,141 --> 00:25:34,421 recorded an open verdict. 497 00:25:34,501 --> 00:25:38,661 And then there was a second inquest about Mark's death, 498 00:25:38,741 --> 00:25:41,781 made it into a murder inquiry. 499 00:25:41,861 --> 00:25:43,661 How many years later? 500 00:25:43,741 --> 00:25:47,381 We're talking about '85 to 2000 and ... 501 00:25:47,461 --> 00:25:48,221 [Cheryl] It was 2002. 502 00:25:48,301 --> 00:25:49,541 Two, yes. 503 00:25:49,621 --> 00:25:51,661 [Emilia] Tell me what happened in between. 504 00:25:51,741 --> 00:25:53,661 [Roy] Investigation was probably going on 505 00:25:53,741 --> 00:25:54,741 in the background, 506 00:25:54,821 --> 00:25:56,861 instigated by Bob Pool. 507 00:25:56,941 --> 00:25:58,901 [Emilia] Now, who was Bob Pool? 508 00:25:58,981 --> 00:26:02,821 Bob Pool was a Sergeant in the police force. 509 00:26:03,981 --> 00:26:07,301 And he literally took up the chalice, 510 00:26:07,381 --> 00:26:10,061 and he did not believe that Mark 511 00:26:11,021 --> 00:26:12,381 could have committed suicide. 512 00:26:12,461 --> 00:26:15,821 Right from the first investigation. 513 00:26:15,901 --> 00:26:18,181 [Winifred] Bob Pool paid for a knot expert 514 00:26:18,261 --> 00:26:20,581 to come over from Switzerland, 515 00:26:20,661 --> 00:26:24,181 and he categorically said there was no way 516 00:26:25,181 --> 00:26:26,981 any child could do those knots. 517 00:26:27,061 --> 00:26:29,101 They were too sophisticated. 518 00:26:29,181 --> 00:26:31,141 At the end of the day, it was murder, 519 00:26:31,221 --> 00:26:35,221 which we've been saying right from day one. 520 00:26:36,261 --> 00:26:37,461 [Emilia] So Bob Pool felt that 521 00:26:37,541 --> 00:26:40,341 you hadn't been fairly treated by the police, 522 00:26:40,421 --> 00:26:42,941 and that's why he continued to be involved 523 00:26:43,021 --> 00:26:45,181 with trying to prove that someone else 524 00:26:45,261 --> 00:26:47,141 was involved, and that it should have been 525 00:26:47,221 --> 00:26:48,501 a murder inquiry. 526 00:26:48,581 --> 00:26:50,261 [Winifred] I think he rattled a few cages. 527 00:26:50,341 --> 00:26:51,501 Yes. 528 00:26:51,581 --> 00:26:54,101 And I think that's what started the police going again. 529 00:26:54,181 --> 00:26:57,181 That and Brian Field's conviction in 2001. 530 00:26:57,261 --> 00:26:58,021 [Winifred] Yes. 531 00:26:58,101 --> 00:27:01,101 [Emilia] When he was investigated for 25 other cases 532 00:27:01,181 --> 00:27:04,261 that he might have been involved. 533 00:27:06,101 --> 00:27:08,981 When did you first hear about Brian Field? 534 00:27:09,061 --> 00:27:11,301 [Roy] Again, from Bob Pool, saying that, 535 00:27:11,381 --> 00:27:14,901 "This guy is a well known paedophile." 536 00:27:15,701 --> 00:27:19,621 He's done so many indecent criminal acts. 537 00:27:19,701 --> 00:27:23,141 Is there any way that he could have got to know Mark? 538 00:27:23,221 --> 00:27:23,981 [Roy] Yes. 539 00:27:24,061 --> 00:27:28,021 He lived about a mile and a half from where we were. 540 00:27:28,101 --> 00:27:31,821 So he's got easy access to the playing fields 541 00:27:31,901 --> 00:27:34,301 at the back of where we lived. 542 00:27:34,381 --> 00:27:36,221 [Winifred] He was very trusting, Mark was. 543 00:27:36,301 --> 00:27:37,061 Yeah. 544 00:27:37,141 --> 00:27:41,301 If somebody told him a story, he'd believe them. 545 00:27:43,301 --> 00:27:45,701 [Cheryl] In 2002, as the case was reopened 546 00:27:45,781 --> 00:27:50,341 and re-looked into, they were looking for the artefacts, 547 00:27:50,421 --> 00:27:52,181 but they were lost. 548 00:27:53,061 --> 00:27:55,941 So they can't get any DNA evidence? 549 00:27:56,021 --> 00:27:57,261 [Cheryl] With the Roy Tutill case, 550 00:27:57,341 --> 00:27:58,461 which was the case that convicted 551 00:27:58,541 --> 00:27:59,541 and put Brian Field away- 552 00:27:59,621 --> 00:28:00,381 Absolutely. 553 00:28:00,461 --> 00:28:04,581 [Cheryl] Through the DNA screening, 30 years later, 554 00:28:04,661 --> 00:28:07,181 that's taken away from us as a family. 555 00:28:07,261 --> 00:28:08,421 And there's been no explanation. 556 00:28:08,501 --> 00:28:11,141 [Cheryl] It's documented that they searched for them, 557 00:28:11,221 --> 00:28:14,381 but because Mark's case was never officially 558 00:28:14,461 --> 00:28:15,701 recorded as a crime- 559 00:28:15,781 --> 00:28:16,541 Right. 560 00:28:16,621 --> 00:28:20,461 They didn't have to then keep the artefacts. 561 00:28:23,581 --> 00:28:24,661 [Winifred] I just dread the thought 562 00:28:24,741 --> 00:28:27,821 of other people going through it. 563 00:28:29,901 --> 00:28:32,781 [Emilia] We're looking into the disappearance 564 00:28:32,861 --> 00:28:36,421 of David Spencer and Patrick Warren. 565 00:28:36,501 --> 00:28:38,541 When you heard about that case, 566 00:28:38,621 --> 00:28:40,941 did you associate it in any way 567 00:28:41,021 --> 00:28:43,421 with what had happened with Mark? 568 00:28:43,501 --> 00:28:45,141 [Roy] Yes, obviously. You start thinking 569 00:28:45,221 --> 00:28:46,621 about the possibilities. 570 00:28:46,701 --> 00:28:47,941 [Emilia] Yeah. 571 00:28:48,021 --> 00:28:50,861 Once that guy's name comes up. 572 00:28:50,941 --> 00:28:55,821 Brian Field. You think, "Is he responsible for that? 573 00:28:56,381 --> 00:28:58,341 For that? For that?" 574 00:28:58,421 --> 00:29:02,301 He's been responsible for so many things. 575 00:29:03,261 --> 00:29:06,781 I just wish I could pin him down to Mark. 576 00:29:09,301 --> 00:29:13,061 Someone took my child's life. Our child. 577 00:29:28,461 --> 00:29:30,541 How'd you cope with that? 578 00:29:33,341 --> 00:29:35,421 When you know someone ... 579 00:29:51,821 --> 00:29:54,381 [sombre music] 580 00:30:10,901 --> 00:30:13,581 [Emilia] Just been to meet the Billingtons, 581 00:30:13,661 --> 00:30:17,301 and there is a connection to Brian Field. 582 00:30:17,381 --> 00:30:19,941 Field was possibly living one mile away 583 00:30:20,021 --> 00:30:22,461 from the Billingtons at the time. 584 00:30:22,541 --> 00:30:25,021 [David] So how does this relate to our case? 585 00:30:25,101 --> 00:30:27,461 [Emilia] Roy Billington, Mark's dad- 586 00:30:27,541 --> 00:30:28,461 Yeah. 587 00:30:28,541 --> 00:30:32,541 Has collected all the correspondence and information 588 00:30:32,621 --> 00:30:33,941 he got from Bob Pool. 589 00:30:34,021 --> 00:30:34,781 [David] Who's Bob Pool? 590 00:30:34,861 --> 00:30:37,661 Bob Pool was a junior officer on the case, 591 00:30:37,741 --> 00:30:39,221 and he helped the family because he felt 592 00:30:39,301 --> 00:30:41,101 that there had been gross injustice 593 00:30:41,181 --> 00:30:41,941 done to them. 594 00:30:42,021 --> 00:30:44,901 [David] Can we get access to Bob Pool? 595 00:30:44,981 --> 00:30:47,221 [Emilia] No, Bob Pool has died. 596 00:30:47,301 --> 00:30:51,101 But this is one of the emails from Bob Pool. 597 00:30:51,181 --> 00:30:52,541 Read this bit here. 598 00:30:52,621 --> 00:30:54,421 "I am still working on seeing two 599 00:30:54,501 --> 00:30:56,541 rather reluctant witnesses I've located 600 00:30:56,621 --> 00:30:59,781 at Chelmsley Wood, in respect for the missing boys." 601 00:30:59,861 --> 00:31:01,221 So our two boys. 602 00:31:03,101 --> 00:31:07,021 Oh my gosh. "One of whom saw Field with both lads 603 00:31:07,101 --> 00:31:09,181 a few days before they disappeared." 604 00:31:09,261 --> 00:31:10,261 [Emilia] That's the first time that we have 605 00:31:10,341 --> 00:31:14,381 any connection between Field and the two boys, 606 00:31:14,461 --> 00:31:16,901 possibly knowing them before they were taken. 607 00:31:16,981 --> 00:31:18,501 [David] And it also explains something. 608 00:31:18,581 --> 00:31:20,381 We've always been concerned about the fact 609 00:31:20,461 --> 00:31:23,181 that there was no noise on that night. 610 00:31:23,261 --> 00:31:27,101 Well, if the boys knew Field 611 00:31:27,181 --> 00:31:29,901 prior to Boxing Day night when they disappear, 612 00:31:29,981 --> 00:31:32,981 that's why nobody hears anybody scream or shout, 613 00:31:33,061 --> 00:31:36,421 or try to fight as they're being abducted. 614 00:31:36,501 --> 00:31:38,061 [Emilia] And also, we thought that his MO 615 00:31:38,141 --> 00:31:39,861 was as an opportunist. 616 00:31:39,941 --> 00:31:44,461 This suggests that there was grooming involved. 617 00:31:59,261 --> 00:32:01,581 [David] For me, the case is closing in 618 00:32:01,661 --> 00:32:04,461 around Brian Field as a suspect, 619 00:32:04,541 --> 00:32:06,101 but there's still missing pieces, 620 00:32:06,181 --> 00:32:10,221 like how he operates when he commits his crimes. 621 00:32:10,301 --> 00:32:13,381 So I'm going to interview Dr. Graham Hill, 622 00:32:13,461 --> 00:32:17,061 who's an expert on predatory paedophiles. 623 00:32:17,141 --> 00:32:21,341 Graham has interviewed Brian on a number of occasions, 624 00:32:21,421 --> 00:32:26,741 and crucially got him to admit to the murder of Roy Tutill. 625 00:32:27,341 --> 00:32:28,581 [Brian] If I did get too involved, 626 00:32:28,661 --> 00:32:31,181 I would have to tell them about my past. 627 00:32:31,261 --> 00:32:35,181 And that's why I sort of work on my own and ... 628 00:32:38,261 --> 00:32:40,261 And keep my distance. 629 00:32:42,021 --> 00:32:45,541 [David] He comes across as quite a kindly 630 00:32:45,621 --> 00:32:47,501 grandfather figure. 631 00:32:47,581 --> 00:32:49,301 Don't get sucked into seeing a little, 632 00:32:49,381 --> 00:32:51,021 gray-haired old man. 633 00:32:51,101 --> 00:32:55,381 In 1968, he was in his 30s, fit, ex-Marine, 634 00:32:55,461 --> 00:32:57,381 rugby playing, worked on the land. 635 00:32:57,461 --> 00:32:59,901 He would have been an enormous threat to Roy Tutill. 636 00:32:59,981 --> 00:33:03,101 If I had a drink, I'd get that urge, 637 00:33:03,181 --> 00:33:05,741 that I want to have sex. 638 00:33:05,821 --> 00:33:07,141 And that's when I ... 639 00:33:07,221 --> 00:33:09,461 My trouble started. 640 00:33:09,541 --> 00:33:12,301 I just lost my head or something. 641 00:33:12,381 --> 00:33:16,261 [David] So he's revealing alcohol's one of his triggers, 642 00:33:16,341 --> 00:33:18,261 in relation to offending. 643 00:33:18,341 --> 00:33:19,901 Why is he telling you that? 644 00:33:19,981 --> 00:33:24,461 He sees alcohol as a precursor to a lot of his offences. 645 00:33:24,541 --> 00:33:26,741 And in fact, when you look at a lot of his offences, 646 00:33:26,821 --> 00:33:28,781 he's committed them while he's been drinking. 647 00:33:28,861 --> 00:33:31,221 So we all know that alcohol is a disinhibitor, 648 00:33:31,301 --> 00:33:34,501 because Brian is, in essence, a preferential offender. 649 00:33:34,581 --> 00:33:36,701 So, explain preferential offending. 650 00:33:36,781 --> 00:33:38,101 [Graham] Okay, so preferential offending 651 00:33:38,181 --> 00:33:42,181 is where the offender acts compulsively 652 00:33:42,261 --> 00:33:44,301 to fulfil a sexual need. 653 00:33:44,381 --> 00:33:45,661 Brian is, in essence, 654 00:33:45,741 --> 00:33:47,741 sexually interested in prepubescent boys. 655 00:33:47,821 --> 00:33:50,021 In fact, he's what's known as a hebephile. 656 00:33:50,101 --> 00:33:52,181 Given the opportunity, right circumstances, 657 00:33:52,261 --> 00:33:54,701 right place, right time, he would offend 658 00:33:54,781 --> 00:33:57,821 against that type of victim. 659 00:33:57,901 --> 00:34:00,461 I was driving along the road, 660 00:34:01,981 --> 00:34:04,901 and I saw this lad get off the bus. 661 00:34:08,541 --> 00:34:11,061 And he thumbed for it. 662 00:34:11,141 --> 00:34:12,381 I'm sure he thumbed for a lift. 663 00:34:12,461 --> 00:34:13,901 He stood there. 664 00:34:14,541 --> 00:34:16,541 I stopped and he got in. 665 00:34:18,861 --> 00:34:20,301 [Graham] You're in the car? 666 00:34:20,381 --> 00:34:21,181 [Brian] Yeah. 667 00:34:21,261 --> 00:34:23,621 [Graham] What do you try to do? 668 00:34:23,701 --> 00:34:26,261 I tried to bugger him. 669 00:34:26,341 --> 00:34:28,781 Right over the front seat. 670 00:34:29,421 --> 00:34:30,781 Was he crying? What was he doing? 671 00:34:30,861 --> 00:34:33,101 No, no, he wasn't crying. 672 00:34:37,581 --> 00:34:40,261 I told him to get dressed again. 673 00:34:41,421 --> 00:34:44,701 And then I was panicking like anything. 674 00:34:45,701 --> 00:34:48,381 How did you strangle him? 675 00:34:48,461 --> 00:34:49,301 I just 676 00:34:51,341 --> 00:34:55,501 put the tie around his neck and just tightened it. 677 00:34:57,461 --> 00:35:00,141 He just sort of convulsed a bit, 678 00:35:01,061 --> 00:35:04,741 sort of gasping for air and I just carried on, 679 00:35:04,821 --> 00:35:07,821 and suddenly, he went lifeless. 680 00:35:10,221 --> 00:35:14,421 [David] So, in the end, when you've got him in this room, 681 00:35:14,501 --> 00:35:17,941 and he's admitting to the murder of Roy, 682 00:35:18,021 --> 00:35:19,781 how does he at that stage ... 683 00:35:19,861 --> 00:35:24,181 Does he feel relief, or does he think, "I've been caught"? 684 00:35:24,261 --> 00:35:25,941 [Graham] My personal view is that, 685 00:35:26,021 --> 00:35:27,501 at this stage of the interview, 686 00:35:27,581 --> 00:35:31,781 Brian is really quite happy to offload all of this guilt 687 00:35:31,861 --> 00:35:34,141 and the frustration and the burden 688 00:35:34,221 --> 00:35:35,901 that he's been carrying for a long time. 689 00:35:35,981 --> 00:35:36,901 Don't get me wrong. 690 00:35:36,981 --> 00:35:39,501 Brian is a predatory sex offender. 691 00:35:39,581 --> 00:35:41,621 I've done several other interviews with Brian Field 692 00:35:41,701 --> 00:35:43,181 since this time, 693 00:35:43,261 --> 00:35:45,101 most recently in the last couple of years, 694 00:35:45,181 --> 00:35:46,061 I've I've interviewed him. 695 00:35:46,141 --> 00:35:46,901 So- 696 00:35:46,981 --> 00:35:48,461 [David] May I ask, why were you interviewing him 697 00:35:48,541 --> 00:35:49,541 in the last couple of years? 698 00:35:49,621 --> 00:35:53,661 [Graham] I interviewed him for West Midlands Police 699 00:35:53,741 --> 00:35:54,901 about other offences. 700 00:35:54,981 --> 00:35:58,021 I'm presuming you asked him about the milk carton kids. 701 00:35:58,101 --> 00:36:00,261 [Graham] There was some tantalising little 702 00:36:00,341 --> 00:36:02,781 bits of information that he gave up. 703 00:36:02,861 --> 00:36:07,181 He never admitted that he abducted those boys, 704 00:36:07,541 --> 00:36:09,301 but I think we got to the stage that ... 705 00:36:09,381 --> 00:36:10,701 Certainly, the West Midlands Police 706 00:36:10,781 --> 00:36:13,141 got to the stage where they could put him, 707 00:36:13,221 --> 00:36:16,141 the night in question, in the vicinity 708 00:36:16,221 --> 00:36:19,541 of where the two boys went missing, 709 00:36:19,621 --> 00:36:21,541 and that he'd been drinking that night, 710 00:36:21,621 --> 00:36:23,741 and he was in a white van. 711 00:36:23,821 --> 00:36:26,141 I don't believe in coincidences. 712 00:36:26,221 --> 00:36:27,741 You've got a man who's got a previous conviction 713 00:36:27,821 --> 00:36:30,701 for abducting children, abducted two children together. 714 00:36:30,781 --> 00:36:34,461 He's in the vicinity of where two boys go missing. 715 00:36:34,541 --> 00:36:38,381 Ultimately, for me, that makes him a very good suspect 716 00:36:38,461 --> 00:36:39,461 for the boys. 717 00:36:39,541 --> 00:36:41,861 [David] The abduction of the two boys in Birmingham 718 00:36:41,941 --> 00:36:44,621 fits his MO perfectly. 719 00:36:44,701 --> 00:36:47,261 In my view, I've never seen a suspect 720 00:36:47,341 --> 00:36:50,581 that is better for the abduction of those two boys 721 00:36:50,661 --> 00:36:52,301 than Brian Field. 722 00:37:05,341 --> 00:37:07,741 [David] I was so surprised by what Graham Hill 723 00:37:07,821 --> 00:37:08,821 has told me. 724 00:37:08,901 --> 00:37:09,661 What? 725 00:37:09,741 --> 00:37:10,941 [David] In the last two years, 726 00:37:11,021 --> 00:37:13,741 he's been asked by the West Midlands Police 727 00:37:13,821 --> 00:37:16,541 to interview Brian Field in relation 728 00:37:16,621 --> 00:37:18,541 to David and Patrick going missing. 729 00:37:18,621 --> 00:37:21,061 Does that mean that they've found something new, then? 730 00:37:21,141 --> 00:37:22,461 [David] Or it might just simply be 731 00:37:22,541 --> 00:37:24,141 that Field's now in his 80s, 732 00:37:24,221 --> 00:37:26,221 and they're worried that he won't be with us 733 00:37:26,301 --> 00:37:27,941 for very much longer. 734 00:37:28,021 --> 00:37:31,461 But more importantly, Graham told me 735 00:37:31,541 --> 00:37:36,061 that Field had revealed to him some tantalising information 736 00:37:36,141 --> 00:37:38,141 that he wasn't prepared to go into, 737 00:37:38,221 --> 00:37:40,421 because it's an active investigation. 738 00:37:40,501 --> 00:37:41,261 Right. 739 00:37:41,341 --> 00:37:42,981 [David] But Graham is convinced 740 00:37:43,061 --> 00:37:46,221 that this is the prime suspect 741 00:37:46,301 --> 00:37:48,901 for the disappearance of David and Patrick. 742 00:37:48,981 --> 00:37:50,781 [Emilia] But then, why haven't the West Midlands Police 743 00:37:50,861 --> 00:37:54,061 charged Field with the disappearance of Patrick and David? 744 00:37:54,141 --> 00:37:58,661 [David] I have no idea, except Field is in prison. 745 00:37:58,741 --> 00:38:00,501 He's never going to be released. 746 00:38:00,581 --> 00:38:01,461 So he's low risk. 747 00:38:01,541 --> 00:38:04,621 Just because he's low risk, and therefore low priority, 748 00:38:04,701 --> 00:38:06,941 where does that leave David and Patrick's family? 749 00:38:07,021 --> 00:38:08,261 [David] I totally get that, 750 00:38:08,341 --> 00:38:11,581 but we can try and do some geo-profiling 751 00:38:11,661 --> 00:38:14,021 to find out what the families have said they want, 752 00:38:14,101 --> 00:38:16,181 which is where are the boys' bodies. 753 00:38:16,261 --> 00:38:17,661 Wait, geo-profiling, it's- 754 00:38:17,741 --> 00:38:20,101 [David] So, geo-profiling is a scientific way 755 00:38:20,181 --> 00:38:23,821 of trying to predict where an offender might live, 756 00:38:23,901 --> 00:38:26,901 but we can turn that on its head to predict 757 00:38:26,981 --> 00:38:30,181 where an offender might've disposed of bodies. 758 00:38:30,261 --> 00:38:31,941 [Emilia] But the police have already done searches 759 00:38:32,021 --> 00:38:34,221 for the boys' bodies, and they've never found anything. 760 00:38:34,301 --> 00:38:39,901 [David] But they've never commissioned any geo-profiling. 761 00:38:39,981 --> 00:38:44,861 And I happen to know the country's leading profiler. 762 00:38:46,421 --> 00:38:48,101 What we're really interested in here 763 00:38:48,181 --> 00:38:50,701 is the journey from abduction 764 00:38:50,781 --> 00:38:53,781 to where David and Patrick ended up. 765 00:38:55,141 --> 00:38:58,821 What we're trying to do is establish a search area 766 00:38:58,901 --> 00:39:02,261 of where we might find the boys' bodies. 767 00:39:03,541 --> 00:39:06,581 Offenders, like us, are creatures of habit. 768 00:39:06,661 --> 00:39:09,141 Field is no different. 769 00:39:09,221 --> 00:39:12,301 We find a range of about 10 kilometres coming up 770 00:39:12,381 --> 00:39:14,861 time and time again, between his home 771 00:39:14,941 --> 00:39:18,461 and where he has committed his crimes. 772 00:39:18,541 --> 00:39:19,301 So what we need to do 773 00:39:19,381 --> 00:39:21,821 is take that 10 kilometres and use it 774 00:39:21,901 --> 00:39:25,661 as the radius of a circle centred on the location 775 00:39:25,741 --> 00:39:28,861 where we know David and Patrick were last seen, 776 00:39:28,941 --> 00:39:32,621 which is the Shell garage in Chelmsley Wood. 777 00:39:34,501 --> 00:39:37,901 What we're trying to do is establish what happened next, 778 00:39:37,981 --> 00:39:40,741 after the boys got in that car. 779 00:39:41,501 --> 00:39:44,541 We know that offenders tend to be drawn 780 00:39:44,621 --> 00:39:49,141 to committing their crimes in areas they're familiar with. 781 00:39:49,221 --> 00:39:52,221 So, Field in a car with the two boys, 782 00:39:52,301 --> 00:39:55,941 he's going to want to get back into a familiar environment. 783 00:39:56,021 --> 00:39:59,581 So, my hypothesis is that Field would have gone 784 00:39:59,661 --> 00:40:02,341 towards the South, into this area. 785 00:40:02,421 --> 00:40:05,781 All of these locations relate to something 786 00:40:05,861 --> 00:40:07,861 about his lifestyle. 787 00:40:08,501 --> 00:40:12,141 Places where Field lived, where he drunk. 788 00:40:12,221 --> 00:40:14,821 He did odd gardening jobs. 789 00:40:14,901 --> 00:40:16,861 And what I'd be looking for here 790 00:40:16,941 --> 00:40:19,061 is locations that were suitable, 791 00:40:19,141 --> 00:40:23,861 that offered the accessibility and the familiarity 792 00:40:23,941 --> 00:40:27,261 and the privacy to afford Field the time 793 00:40:28,901 --> 00:40:32,301 to successfully commit this crime, 794 00:40:32,381 --> 00:40:35,461 and then dispose of the boys' bodies. 795 00:40:37,501 --> 00:40:41,421 One area strikes me as particularly interesting; 796 00:40:41,501 --> 00:40:43,701 the area of JB's golf club, 797 00:40:43,781 --> 00:40:47,461 which is now a football ground, I believe. 798 00:40:47,541 --> 00:40:50,781 So if we can zoom in on JB's, the area, 799 00:40:52,341 --> 00:40:56,621 JB's was a location in the '90s, around the right time, 800 00:40:56,701 --> 00:40:59,461 where Field worked, had a gardening job. 801 00:40:59,541 --> 00:41:01,861 He lived in a caravan on the site. 802 00:41:01,941 --> 00:41:03,301 And what we can see is that 803 00:41:03,381 --> 00:41:05,661 we've got a lot of green open space 804 00:41:05,741 --> 00:41:07,541 and with the right local knowledge, 805 00:41:07,621 --> 00:41:11,741 there are probably multiple suitable locations here. 806 00:41:11,821 --> 00:41:12,581 [David] And Sam, 807 00:41:12,661 --> 00:41:17,101 where do you think we'll find David and Patrick? 808 00:41:17,181 --> 00:41:21,221 So we know that we can never put an X on a map 809 00:41:21,301 --> 00:41:24,061 and say, "That's where you need to start digging," 810 00:41:24,141 --> 00:41:24,901 for example. 811 00:41:24,981 --> 00:41:26,701 But what this has done is taken a search area 812 00:41:26,781 --> 00:41:29,701 of a radius of 10 kilometres down to actually 813 00:41:29,781 --> 00:41:31,941 a reasonably small area. 814 00:41:32,021 --> 00:41:34,581 And what I suggest that you both do now 815 00:41:34,661 --> 00:41:37,341 is go in and immerse yourself in this environment 816 00:41:37,421 --> 00:41:40,061 and experience this as he would have done, 817 00:41:40,141 --> 00:41:43,421 through his eyes, back in those days. 818 00:41:43,501 --> 00:41:46,101 [sombre music] 819 00:41:48,541 --> 00:41:50,101 [Emilia] Let's put a narrative together, 820 00:41:50,181 --> 00:41:52,381 with all the information that we've got 821 00:41:52,461 --> 00:41:54,141 since we've been here. 822 00:41:54,221 --> 00:41:56,661 [David] Graham Hill told us the police have evidence 823 00:41:56,741 --> 00:42:00,381 that places Brian Field close to where the boys 824 00:42:00,461 --> 00:42:03,061 were last seen on that night, 825 00:42:03,141 --> 00:42:05,861 and that he was in a white van. 826 00:42:05,941 --> 00:42:08,741 We've got some answer, in terms of why there's no struggle 827 00:42:08,821 --> 00:42:10,461 on that particular night. 828 00:42:10,541 --> 00:42:13,421 There's a witness that said Field knew the boys, 829 00:42:13,501 --> 00:42:14,781 the boys knew Field. 830 00:42:14,861 --> 00:42:16,621 Now that's quite crucial, isn't it? 831 00:42:16,701 --> 00:42:20,541 Because when he rocks up in his car on Boxing Day night, 832 00:42:20,621 --> 00:42:24,101 that he's somebody that's familiar to them, isn't he? 833 00:42:24,181 --> 00:42:27,341 So they would have got into his van, possibly willingly, 834 00:42:27,421 --> 00:42:30,661 and then he could take them where he wanted. 835 00:42:30,741 --> 00:42:33,501 [dramatic music] 836 00:42:37,141 --> 00:42:38,261 [David] And then the key question 837 00:42:38,341 --> 00:42:41,061 was always, thereafter and remains, 838 00:42:41,141 --> 00:42:42,981 well, what happened? 839 00:42:43,061 --> 00:42:47,501 Where does he go after he gets the boys into his van? 840 00:42:52,421 --> 00:42:54,981 How's he going to cope with the two boys in the car though? 841 00:42:55,061 --> 00:42:57,301 That's what we've now got to concentrate on. 842 00:42:57,381 --> 00:43:00,781 How does he manage to subdue both boys, 843 00:43:00,861 --> 00:43:03,021 when they realise something isn't right? 844 00:43:03,101 --> 00:43:08,101 Previously, he's tried to do things to boys in his car. 845 00:43:08,221 --> 00:43:11,141 The Oswestry boys, they were hitching a lift, 846 00:43:11,221 --> 00:43:15,501 and then he threatens them once they're in the car. 847 00:43:18,541 --> 00:43:21,741 [Brian] I think they were about 12, 13. 848 00:43:21,821 --> 00:43:24,301 I didn't actually attack them, because I was driving. 849 00:43:24,381 --> 00:43:25,901 I told them to get undressed. 850 00:43:25,981 --> 00:43:28,021 I told them to get undressed, 851 00:43:28,101 --> 00:43:29,261 because I was going to take them ... 852 00:43:29,341 --> 00:43:32,501 I had a friend's farm up in the hills. 853 00:43:34,301 --> 00:43:35,341 And I was going to ... 854 00:43:35,421 --> 00:43:39,421 I don't know what I was going to do with them. 855 00:43:55,501 --> 00:43:58,621 [David] Geo-profiling tells us Field would have travelled 856 00:43:58,701 --> 00:44:02,541 with David and Patrick from Chelmsley Wood South 857 00:44:02,621 --> 00:44:06,461 towards here, Solihull, which is where he lived 858 00:44:06,541 --> 00:44:09,021 and felt comfortable. 859 00:44:09,101 --> 00:44:11,181 [Emilia] Well, we're in the search area, 860 00:44:11,261 --> 00:44:14,701 close to JB's, where Sam pinpointed. 861 00:44:15,141 --> 00:44:17,541 [David] Geo-profiling gets you so far, 862 00:44:17,621 --> 00:44:20,661 but until you're in the actual spaces 863 00:44:20,741 --> 00:44:23,221 that those maps reveal, 864 00:44:23,301 --> 00:44:25,901 a whole new picture emerges. 865 00:44:25,981 --> 00:44:28,421 Suddenly it becomes real. 866 00:44:29,581 --> 00:44:30,741 [Emilia] You really get a sense that 867 00:44:30,821 --> 00:44:33,821 this is the kind of place that would have given Field 868 00:44:33,901 --> 00:44:36,221 the cover and isolation he needed 869 00:44:36,301 --> 00:44:41,141 to do what he was going to do with Patrick and David. 870 00:44:41,221 --> 00:44:42,381 [David] The long and the short of it is 871 00:44:42,461 --> 00:44:46,461 that we can't today say the body is there. 872 00:44:46,541 --> 00:44:48,301 The bodies are there. 873 00:44:48,381 --> 00:44:50,501 This place, for me, really needs 874 00:44:50,581 --> 00:44:52,701 to be appropriately searched, 875 00:44:52,781 --> 00:44:54,501 and we should give all of our information, 876 00:44:54,581 --> 00:44:55,621 both to the families- 877 00:44:55,701 --> 00:44:56,461 [Emilia] And the police. 878 00:44:56,541 --> 00:44:58,941 [David] And the police. 879 00:44:59,021 --> 00:45:00,781 [Emilia] Tragedy. 880 00:45:00,861 --> 00:45:04,261 It's a tragedy for Patrick and David's family. 881 00:45:04,341 --> 00:45:05,901 It's a tragedy for the Billingtons, 882 00:45:05,981 --> 00:45:09,421 and all the other families involved. 883 00:45:14,221 --> 00:45:17,421 [David] We know Brian Field murdered Roy Tutill. 884 00:45:17,501 --> 00:45:19,781 If he's ever brought to justice 885 00:45:19,861 --> 00:45:22,421 for the murders of David and Patrick, 886 00:45:22,501 --> 00:45:27,501 and if he's found guilty of Mark Billington's murder, 887 00:45:27,541 --> 00:45:31,741 that's multiple victims over a long period of time. 888 00:45:31,821 --> 00:45:35,261 I feel, as I'm standing here, 889 00:45:38,461 --> 00:45:40,541 we could be uncovering 890 00:45:41,861 --> 00:45:45,541 one of the worst serial killers of children 891 00:45:45,621 --> 00:45:48,461 this country has ever known. 892 00:45:48,541 --> 00:45:51,101 [sombre music] 893 00:46:07,581 --> 00:46:10,741 [eerie child singing]