1 00:00:05,564 --> 00:00:09,800 (police sirens blaring) 2 00:00:10,678 --> 00:00:11,844 (spencer speaking) 3 00:00:13,405 --> 00:00:14,179 (margaret speaking) 4 00:00:18,185 --> 00:00:19,834 (car revving) 5 00:00:19,854 --> 00:00:21,186 (spencer speaking) 6 00:00:21,413 --> 00:00:22,146 (margaret speaking) 7 00:00:23,858 --> 00:00:24,606 (spencer speaking) 8 00:00:29,104 --> 00:00:29,862 -(horn blaring) -(glass shattering) 9 00:00:34,869 --> 00:00:37,352 Spencer: Margaret anticipates that the turn is coming. 10 00:00:37,446 --> 00:00:39,687 Veronica fell over on top of her, 11 00:00:39,782 --> 00:00:41,431 She couldn't get her off. 12 00:00:41,450 --> 00:00:43,709 And this caused margaret to lose control, 13 00:00:44,770 --> 00:00:46,170 And hit an 18 -wheeler. 14 00:00:50,718 --> 00:00:52,626 Margaret has been charged with murder 15 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,555 Because she was found with xanax in her system. 16 00:00:56,706 --> 00:00:59,850 The state's allegation is that that is what caused the accident. 17 00:01:06,475 --> 00:01:10,235 Margaret: I feel like my life is ended. 18 00:01:10,387 --> 00:01:13,322 You get up, and you feel like you've been kicked back down, 19 00:01:14,241 --> 00:01:16,075 Because of this. 20 00:01:18,153 --> 00:01:19,536 It's been a long journey. 21 00:01:21,082 --> 00:01:22,414 It's time for it to be over. 22 00:01:36,413 --> 00:01:39,080 Spencer: My name is spencer hodnett. I'm a criminal defense attorney, 23 00:01:39,174 --> 00:01:41,433 And my client is margaret culp. 24 00:01:43,345 --> 00:01:45,270 Margaret's been charged with murder, 25 00:01:45,422 --> 00:01:48,832 Which has a maximum sentence of life in prison. 26 00:01:48,851 --> 00:01:52,169 Her being sentenced to prison for the rest of her life, 27 00:01:52,262 --> 00:01:54,780 I think, would be a grave injustice. 28 00:01:58,510 --> 00:02:00,694 Back in September of 2015, 29 00:02:00,846 --> 00:02:02,788 Margaret and her good friend, veronica ott, 30 00:02:03,015 --> 00:02:06,441 Had dinner in the birmingham, alabama area. 31 00:02:06,535 --> 00:02:10,129 Veronica had alcohol at dinner and margaret did not, 32 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:12,522 So margaret says, for that reason, 33 00:02:12,616 --> 00:02:14,282 They both decided that it was best 34 00:02:14,301 --> 00:02:18,137 For margaret to drive veronica's car back. 35 00:02:18,288 --> 00:02:21,865 On the drive home, veronica starts feeling ill. 36 00:02:21,958 --> 00:02:25,385 I think that margaret misjudges her approach to a junction. 37 00:02:25,537 --> 00:02:29,055 She's in the wrong lane, veronica falls on top of her, 38 00:02:29,208 --> 00:02:32,133 And she is unable to get veronica off her, 39 00:02:32,153 --> 00:02:33,569 And get out of the wrong lane. 40 00:02:34,563 --> 00:02:35,487 This caused margaret... 41 00:02:37,216 --> 00:02:38,782 ...To hit an 18-wheeler. 42 00:02:42,145 --> 00:02:45,956 Unfortunately, veronica died from multiple blunt force injuries. 43 00:02:52,581 --> 00:02:53,747 Margaret goes on with life, 44 00:02:53,899 --> 00:02:56,400 Even though she's devastated by 45 00:02:56,418 --> 00:02:59,595 The death of her very good friend, veronica. 46 00:03:01,423 --> 00:03:02,997 And then, out of the blue, 47 00:03:03,017 --> 00:03:05,258 Over 18 months later, 48 00:03:05,352 --> 00:03:07,769 She gets charged with the murder of veronica. 49 00:03:09,581 --> 00:03:12,098 The reason why margaret was charged with murder, 50 00:03:12,193 --> 00:03:14,509 In the case according to the prosecution, 51 00:03:14,528 --> 00:03:18,346 Was that she had the sedative xanax in her system. 52 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:20,848 The prosecution claimed that, 53 00:03:20,868 --> 00:03:25,779 Being under the influence of xanax, margaret was impaired, 54 00:03:25,931 --> 00:03:29,208 And that created a grave risk of death. 55 00:03:29,359 --> 00:03:32,211 According to margaret, she had taken xanax 56 00:03:32,438 --> 00:03:35,214 But she had not taken her full dose 57 00:03:35,441 --> 00:03:37,049 For that day, that she had been prescribed. 58 00:03:39,053 --> 00:03:43,447 The defense's position is that this is a tragic accident. 59 00:03:43,465 --> 00:03:46,283 Margaret's recollection was that 60 00:03:46,301 --> 00:03:48,785 Veronica was not wearing her seat belt. 61 00:03:48,804 --> 00:03:51,137 Veronica fell over on her, 62 00:03:51,290 --> 00:03:53,790 And that caused the wreck. 63 00:03:53,809 --> 00:03:56,735 And we believe that we are gonna be able to show that at trial. 64 00:04:04,561 --> 00:04:08,372 Margaret is somebody I've grown to care a lot about. 65 00:04:09,308 --> 00:04:11,491 She is not a murderer. 66 00:04:11,643 --> 00:04:16,070 She was in a terrible accident that killed her best friend. 67 00:04:16,090 --> 00:04:18,423 And I intend for us to show this. 68 00:04:23,079 --> 00:04:23,887 (melancholy music playing) 69 00:04:42,024 --> 00:04:44,174 Margaret: When I think about the case, 70 00:04:44,267 --> 00:04:46,743 I feel like my life is ended. 71 00:04:49,364 --> 00:04:53,292 I knew veronica for over 20 years. 72 00:04:53,443 --> 00:04:55,419 She was like a second daughter. 73 00:04:57,464 --> 00:05:00,132 She was funny, happy-go-lucky. 74 00:05:01,543 --> 00:05:04,285 Veronica always wanted children, 75 00:05:04,379 --> 00:05:05,929 To be married, have a family. 76 00:05:07,308 --> 00:05:10,625 She never got that. 77 00:05:10,719 --> 00:05:14,604 I've wished, so many times, that it would have been me and not her. 78 00:05:17,967 --> 00:05:21,561 I could never imagine that I would be 79 00:05:21,713 --> 00:05:26,158 Someone that was charged with murdering anything or anyone. 80 00:05:27,995 --> 00:05:33,740 If we'd seen a little animal here, dying, I couldn't kill it. 81 00:05:33,892 --> 00:05:36,168 (sniffs) much less a human that I loved. 82 00:05:38,730 --> 00:05:42,758 Not to have veronica in my life is a very large void. 83 00:05:44,494 --> 00:05:46,928 I will miss her till I take my last breath. 84 00:05:54,337 --> 00:05:57,689 Justice for me right now would be the truth. 85 00:05:59,342 --> 00:06:03,862 This all being worked out and over. Freed from it. 86 00:06:07,593 --> 00:06:12,429 The thought of, uh, grandkids, my daughter, my mother, 87 00:06:12,447 --> 00:06:14,355 Hearing you're guilty... 88 00:06:14,375 --> 00:06:17,834 (sniffs) I can't stand the thought of that. 89 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:21,380 And I know I wouldn't make it. 90 00:06:25,219 --> 00:06:26,051 (sniffs) 91 00:06:48,909 --> 00:06:52,135 Spencer: I have the statute pulled up right here. 92 00:06:52,154 --> 00:06:55,872 And it's a good idea for you to know, specifically, what they're accusing you of. 93 00:06:57,809 --> 00:07:00,644 "margaret ann culp did, 94 00:07:00,662 --> 00:07:05,239 "under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to human life, 95 00:07:05,259 --> 00:07:07,592 "recklessly engage in conduct 96 00:07:07,819 --> 00:07:11,579 "which created a grave risk of death to a person other than herself, 97 00:07:11,598 --> 00:07:13,557 "and thereby caused the death of another person." 98 00:07:14,843 --> 00:07:16,184 So, that's what they're saying. 99 00:07:18,087 --> 00:07:20,497 That's not what happened, though. 100 00:07:20,590 --> 00:07:24,109 Yeah. Well, I don't think what you did 101 00:07:24,260 --> 00:07:27,612 Is close to manifesting extreme indifference to human life. 102 00:07:28,782 --> 00:07:30,782 That's one of the reasons why 103 00:07:31,452 --> 00:07:33,843 Your case is, 104 00:07:33,862 --> 00:07:36,437 -To me, such... -So bizarre. 105 00:07:36,531 --> 00:07:39,440 -Crazy. -Well, wrong. 106 00:07:39,460 --> 00:07:40,625 It's wrong, I believe. 107 00:07:41,295 --> 00:07:43,462 I agree. 108 00:07:43,689 --> 00:07:47,857 If she died from not having her seat belt on, 109 00:07:47,876 --> 00:07:50,469 Who's to blame for her not putting her seat belt on? 110 00:07:50,696 --> 00:07:54,639 So, that's something for us to explore further. 111 00:07:56,218 --> 00:07:58,310 The sentencing part of this 112 00:07:58,537 --> 00:08:02,647 Is, "murder is a class a felony." 113 00:08:02,799 --> 00:08:04,566 The punishment for murder, it would be 10 to life. 114 00:08:07,804 --> 00:08:09,379 -And that's if you have... -Ten years to life? 115 00:08:09,397 --> 00:08:10,322 Spencer: Ten years to life. 116 00:08:17,723 --> 00:08:19,122 Margaret: I wouldn't live that long. 117 00:08:23,245 --> 00:08:24,920 This journey has been hell. 118 00:08:26,915 --> 00:08:28,465 And I'm ready for it to end. 119 00:08:29,843 --> 00:08:30,800 (sniffs) 120 00:08:33,830 --> 00:08:35,305 I love you, I'm getting out of here. 121 00:08:36,758 --> 00:08:37,849 I love you, too, margaret. 122 00:08:38,927 --> 00:08:39,768 (margaret speaking) 123 00:08:44,525 --> 00:08:45,357 (sniffs) 124 00:08:46,601 --> 00:08:47,751 -Bye, rena. -Rena: Bye. 125 00:08:47,844 --> 00:08:49,528 -I love you. Pray for me. -Rena: I will. 126 00:08:51,940 --> 00:08:52,822 (sighs) 127 00:08:53,534 --> 00:08:54,491 (sniffs) 128 00:08:57,538 --> 00:08:59,612 Spencer: To go after a woman for having a car wreck, 129 00:08:59,765 --> 00:09:03,024 And then charging her with murder for the best friend, 130 00:09:03,043 --> 00:09:06,953 I think it's psychologically cruel and I think it's wrong. 131 00:09:07,105 --> 00:09:11,441 The system lends itself to going heavy after the poor, 132 00:09:11,534 --> 00:09:14,869 Because the poor don't have the resources to defend themselves. 133 00:09:14,963 --> 00:09:16,613 It's much easier 134 00:09:16,706 --> 00:09:20,058 To convict people who can't fight back. 135 00:09:20,285 --> 00:09:23,210 So, my strategy is to just remind the jury, 136 00:09:23,305 --> 00:09:25,789 Even though she took the xanax, 137 00:09:25,807 --> 00:09:30,735 The cause of the wreck was that veronica fell on my client, 138 00:09:30,887 --> 00:09:32,237 And that it was a horrible accident. 139 00:09:35,576 --> 00:09:39,869 That sentence was new information that I just discovered today. 140 00:09:41,915 --> 00:09:42,998 I'm scared. 141 00:09:44,326 --> 00:09:46,476 It's not justice. 142 00:09:46,494 --> 00:09:48,920 Why don't they go out here, 143 00:09:49,147 --> 00:09:51,172 And arrest some of these people that are... 144 00:09:53,151 --> 00:09:55,677 Are really murdering people, and... 145 00:09:58,432 --> 00:10:00,724 (voice faltering) it's wrong. It's so wrong. 146 00:10:26,368 --> 00:10:27,959 Spencer: I'm going to the crash scene 147 00:10:28,186 --> 00:10:32,279 Because I need to show that margaret's claim 148 00:10:32,299 --> 00:10:34,949 About veronica falling over on her 149 00:10:35,043 --> 00:10:37,594 Being what caused the wreck 150 00:10:38,380 --> 00:10:39,804 Is what happened. 151 00:10:43,810 --> 00:10:44,643 (softly) perfect. 152 00:10:58,158 --> 00:11:00,066 Okay. 153 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,327 I think this specific spot is where the wreck happened. 154 00:11:03,905 --> 00:11:07,082 It would be right before that junction. 155 00:11:10,412 --> 00:11:13,755 That makes sense 'cause there is a railing on both sides. 156 00:11:38,773 --> 00:11:41,107 According to law enforcement, 157 00:11:41,201 --> 00:11:45,370 The truck was getting up steam down by the junction. 158 00:11:47,432 --> 00:11:51,284 Margaret would have been wanting to take a left. 159 00:11:51,436 --> 00:11:54,787 I think she anticipates that the turn is coming, 160 00:11:54,881 --> 00:11:55,714 She did not... 161 00:11:57,384 --> 00:12:00,701 ...You know, um, judge it correctly. 162 00:12:00,721 --> 00:12:03,963 She mistakes the on ramp for the exit, 163 00:12:04,115 --> 00:12:07,208 And starts to change lanes too early. 164 00:12:07,227 --> 00:12:09,185 Therefore, she was on the wrong side of the road. 165 00:12:11,881 --> 00:12:15,400 Veronica fell over on top of her, she could not get her off, 166 00:12:15,627 --> 00:12:18,236 Which causes her to stay in the wrong lane. 167 00:12:19,297 --> 00:12:20,572 Bam, there's the wreck. 168 00:12:25,561 --> 00:12:28,896 What margaret needed was to not be 169 00:12:28,915 --> 00:12:32,475 Contradicted by the topography 170 00:12:32,494 --> 00:12:35,311 Or where the wreck happened. 171 00:12:35,330 --> 00:12:39,073 I feel like this kind of helps her story, 172 00:12:39,092 --> 00:12:40,592 And in no way hurts her story. 173 00:12:50,437 --> 00:12:53,162 Jordan: I don't know what we're gonna do if it gets any hotter. 174 00:12:53,181 --> 00:12:54,755 Margaret: Are you burning up, darling? 175 00:12:54,775 --> 00:12:56,191 -Yeah. -Oh. 176 00:13:06,769 --> 00:13:09,788 Jordan: I don't know what I would do if you had to go back to prison. 177 00:13:12,292 --> 00:13:13,708 Margaret: It's gonna be okay. 178 00:13:18,131 --> 00:13:19,047 (sniffs) 179 00:13:30,644 --> 00:13:33,719 Jordan: She was living with my mom before she came here. 180 00:13:33,814 --> 00:13:36,130 But they argue a lot, so... 181 00:13:36,224 --> 00:13:38,966 I guess I'm easier to live with. 182 00:13:39,060 --> 00:13:44,638 It's been a living hell for her and the family since it started. 183 00:13:44,732 --> 00:13:49,476 It really has affected her with not having her own life. 184 00:13:49,496 --> 00:13:52,146 She lived in the same place, 185 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,892 Like, my whole childhood, so... 186 00:13:55,985 --> 00:14:00,296 It's... It's sad to see her not have her independence anymore. 187 00:14:03,176 --> 00:14:05,918 Margaret: Sometimes, I feel like I'm on jordan's toes, 188 00:14:06,071 --> 00:14:06,845 Being here. 189 00:14:09,908 --> 00:14:11,808 I know it's interfering with her life, 190 00:14:13,502 --> 00:14:15,186 Having me around all the time. 191 00:14:17,357 --> 00:14:20,608 But I don't know what I would do without her. 192 00:14:25,681 --> 00:14:30,517 Jordan: I think that she is an amazing granny, and I love her. 193 00:14:30,612 --> 00:14:34,539 She could possibly be going to prison for the rest of her life. 194 00:14:36,025 --> 00:14:38,601 And the thought of her, at her age, 195 00:14:38,620 --> 00:14:42,046 To be put in there and isolated... 196 00:14:42,273 --> 00:14:46,676 I just don't see how she could last very long. 197 00:14:48,796 --> 00:14:51,055 She didn't do well when she was in there before. 198 00:14:53,059 --> 00:14:55,560 She doesn't like talking about it, and I don't... (sniffs) 199 00:14:56,396 --> 00:14:57,312 I don't wanna 200 00:14:58,565 --> 00:15:00,565 Ask her about it. 201 00:15:02,903 --> 00:15:03,860 Come on. 202 00:15:06,072 --> 00:15:07,572 I pray to god 203 00:15:09,225 --> 00:15:12,035 That somehow, someway, this will be dismissed. 204 00:15:27,986 --> 00:15:29,052 This is interesting. 205 00:15:39,922 --> 00:15:41,681 When you get a toxicological report 206 00:15:41,775 --> 00:15:44,425 From the department of forensic sciences, 207 00:15:44,519 --> 00:15:47,928 They test for a bunch of drugs. 208 00:15:48,022 --> 00:15:50,764 And they're all listed here. 209 00:15:50,858 --> 00:15:55,286 And this is the list of things that she came up positive for. 210 00:15:55,513 --> 00:15:59,457 She has 40 nanograms per milliliter of xanax, 211 00:15:59,684 --> 00:16:03,211 And trace amounts of morphine and oxycodone. 212 00:16:20,722 --> 00:16:22,796 So, they're saying that 213 00:16:22,890 --> 00:16:25,483 This combination, somehow, 214 00:16:25,634 --> 00:16:29,212 Of tiny, trace amounts of morphine, 215 00:16:29,305 --> 00:16:32,215 Tiny, trace amounts of oxycodone, 216 00:16:32,308 --> 00:16:36,219 And just a therapeutic dose of xanax 217 00:16:36,237 --> 00:16:38,571 Created the grave risk of death. 218 00:16:38,723 --> 00:16:42,241 But I think that it would not have had any impact 219 00:16:42,393 --> 00:16:44,085 On whether she was impaired or not. 220 00:16:56,074 --> 00:16:59,017 They have to prove that her taking the xanax, 221 00:16:59,244 --> 00:17:01,019 She would know she would be impaired 222 00:17:01,170 --> 00:17:04,413 To the point of likely killing somebody. 223 00:17:04,507 --> 00:17:08,084 But because of the morphine and oxycodone, 224 00:17:08,177 --> 00:17:12,613 I'm very worried about it affecting the way that they decide the case. 225 00:17:14,442 --> 00:17:16,367 If I'm gonna be sitting here, 226 00:17:16,594 --> 00:17:20,538 Discussing levels of impairment and that kind of thing, 227 00:17:21,432 --> 00:17:22,206 I'm losing. 228 00:17:32,443 --> 00:17:33,885 (suspenseful music playing) 229 00:17:34,036 --> 00:17:35,536 Spencer: Margaret. Margaret: Yeah. 230 00:17:35,555 --> 00:17:37,963 Spencer: Jordan. Hey, guys. How you feeling, margaret? 231 00:17:38,058 --> 00:17:38,848 Hello, spencer. 232 00:17:40,285 --> 00:17:41,059 Not so well. 233 00:17:51,905 --> 00:17:55,798 Spencer: I think that the oxycodone and morphine 234 00:17:55,817 --> 00:17:57,316 Were put in the indictment 235 00:17:57,410 --> 00:17:59,911 To influence the jury and make them think that 236 00:18:00,138 --> 00:18:01,804 Margaret is some kind of drug addict, 237 00:18:01,823 --> 00:18:03,748 Responsible for murdering her friend. 238 00:18:03,899 --> 00:18:06,992 And I believe that these should be excluded at trial, 239 00:18:07,145 --> 00:18:10,571 Because there were only trace amounts in her system. 240 00:18:10,665 --> 00:18:13,549 So this is not something that could have impaired her. 241 00:18:28,833 --> 00:18:31,667 The xanax is going to be a problem. 242 00:18:31,686 --> 00:18:36,948 So knowing how long margaret has been on xanax, is extremely important. 243 00:18:37,099 --> 00:18:41,268 If she was just prescribed this a couple of months before the accident, 244 00:18:41,362 --> 00:18:44,363 Then that's a lot different than if she had been on it for a while 245 00:18:44,515 --> 00:18:45,623 And had built up a tolerance. 246 00:18:48,536 --> 00:18:50,853 Okay, margaret, so, 247 00:18:50,946 --> 00:18:53,038 What I need to talk to you about today 248 00:18:53,191 --> 00:18:55,758 Is your prescriptions of xanax. 249 00:18:58,696 --> 00:19:00,805 I think the whole question with any of this 250 00:19:00,956 --> 00:19:05,868 Is whether or not xanax made it where you're too impaired to drive. 251 00:19:05,887 --> 00:19:10,815 So, when was the first time that you were prescribed xanax? 252 00:19:12,543 --> 00:19:15,969 Margaret: I've probably been on xanax for 253 00:19:15,989 --> 00:19:17,780 At least 30 years. 254 00:19:18,900 --> 00:19:20,491 Jordan: Since before I was born, 255 00:19:20,718 --> 00:19:23,619 I've known that she's had a prescription for xanax. 256 00:19:25,481 --> 00:19:28,166 The very first time you got prescribed anxiety medicine 257 00:19:28,317 --> 00:19:30,835 Was when you miscarried, was it not? 258 00:19:30,986 --> 00:19:32,503 When I had my stillborn. 259 00:19:33,673 --> 00:19:34,797 -I was 19. -Spencer: Okay. 260 00:19:36,009 --> 00:19:36,841 I'm sorry. 261 00:19:39,237 --> 00:19:43,239 Margaret: And there was deaths in my family. 262 00:19:43,332 --> 00:19:47,351 Spencer: Okay, so what deaths in your family got you prescribed xanax? 263 00:19:48,596 --> 00:19:49,854 Jordan: Her husband died. 264 00:19:53,008 --> 00:19:54,841 Spencer: Okay, your husband? 265 00:19:54,861 --> 00:19:57,511 Margaret: We were about to get married. 266 00:19:57,530 --> 00:20:00,606 Spencer: So he was your fiance? Okay. 267 00:20:00,758 --> 00:20:02,925 And how did he die? 268 00:20:03,018 --> 00:20:04,327 Margaret: He committed suicide. 269 00:20:08,099 --> 00:20:09,040 Spencer: How did he commit suicide? 270 00:20:10,451 --> 00:20:12,835 Put a 9mm to his chest... 271 00:20:15,364 --> 00:20:16,714 ...And blew his (bleep) away. 272 00:20:18,626 --> 00:20:19,383 Spencer: Who found him? 273 00:20:20,611 --> 00:20:21,385 I did. 274 00:20:23,056 --> 00:20:25,723 Why does this matter? I'm sorry, like, how is this 275 00:20:25,874 --> 00:20:27,132 -Helping? -Spencer: Why does it matter? 276 00:20:27,285 --> 00:20:28,893 Because if I cross-examine somebody about something 277 00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:31,303 And I don't know what it is, I'll look ignorant. 278 00:20:31,456 --> 00:20:32,638 Jordan: But this doesn't... 279 00:20:32,732 --> 00:20:33,639 -It's very important. -Jordan:...Have to do 280 00:20:33,733 --> 00:20:35,140 With anything. 281 00:20:35,293 --> 00:20:37,126 Okay. So... 282 00:20:37,144 --> 00:20:39,219 Could you please go out of the office while I ask her these questions? 283 00:20:39,239 --> 00:20:40,404 -They're important to me. -Jordan: Okay. 284 00:20:42,057 --> 00:20:42,982 And this is not helpful. 285 00:20:43,076 --> 00:20:43,908 Jordan: Okay. 286 00:20:53,402 --> 00:20:57,646 Spencer: Margaret, the reason why I need to know this 287 00:20:57,665 --> 00:21:02,426 Is because I have to know what the story is behind this fiance. 288 00:21:02,653 --> 00:21:05,078 I have to set the stage to why it is 289 00:21:05,172 --> 00:21:09,600 That you've chronically used anti-anxiety medication, right? 290 00:21:11,829 --> 00:21:13,604 But you don't need to talk about it anymore, if you don't want to. 291 00:21:18,093 --> 00:21:18,776 Spencer: I'm really sorry. 292 00:21:19,779 --> 00:21:20,736 (sniffs) 293 00:21:25,176 --> 00:21:27,118 I live with this every day. 294 00:21:28,288 --> 00:21:29,287 I understand. 295 00:21:30,290 --> 00:21:31,122 I'm sorry. 296 00:21:37,463 --> 00:21:38,421 (sniffs) 297 00:21:41,208 --> 00:21:42,967 -I need to go. -Yes. 298 00:21:48,699 --> 00:21:50,032 Jordan: You good? Margaret: Uh-huh. 299 00:21:50,051 --> 00:21:52,201 Jordan: You okay? 300 00:21:52,219 --> 00:21:53,719 I'd like to go ahead and get her home. 301 00:21:53,813 --> 00:21:54,645 Spencer: Okay. 302 00:21:59,710 --> 00:22:03,303 That was a little bit more... 303 00:22:03,323 --> 00:22:06,640 ...Emotional than even I thought it was going to be. 304 00:22:06,659 --> 00:22:08,975 Jordan thought I was too specific 305 00:22:08,995 --> 00:22:12,145 About the situation with the fiance. 306 00:22:12,165 --> 00:22:14,723 But the questions had to be asked. 307 00:22:14,742 --> 00:22:19,562 The fact that she has been on xanax for 30 years is huge, 308 00:22:19,580 --> 00:22:23,507 Because the amount that margaret had in her system 309 00:22:23,659 --> 00:22:26,159 Would not affect her 310 00:22:26,179 --> 00:22:29,088 Nearly to the degree of somebody who had never taken xanax before. 311 00:22:29,182 --> 00:22:31,907 Her driving wasn't impaired because of the xanax. 312 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,094 Nothing was affected, other than 313 00:22:35,246 --> 00:22:37,838 Making life manageable for her. 314 00:22:37,857 --> 00:22:40,316 And that I feel like I can spell out to the jury pretty easily. 315 00:23:06,277 --> 00:23:10,221 Today, I'm gonna go see a surgeon named dr. Kirk withrow. 316 00:23:19,565 --> 00:23:22,975 The best case scenario today is that 317 00:23:23,127 --> 00:23:26,128 The doctor looks at the injuries, 318 00:23:26,147 --> 00:23:30,074 And thinks that they corroborate margaret's story 319 00:23:30,301 --> 00:23:32,985 That the victim fell over on margaret 320 00:23:33,137 --> 00:23:35,154 Because she didn't have her seat belt on. 321 00:23:35,306 --> 00:23:38,082 I mean, that's... That's like a golden ticket. 322 00:23:46,426 --> 00:23:47,258 How you doing? 323 00:23:49,987 --> 00:23:53,338 What I'm looking for is basically just the 324 00:23:53,491 --> 00:23:56,416 Injuries on this autopsy, 325 00:23:56,510 --> 00:24:01,087 To, you know, make sure that I know exactly what they are. 326 00:24:01,182 --> 00:24:02,665 So, can you pull that up? 327 00:24:02,683 --> 00:24:04,442 -Dr. Withrow: Yeah. -And I'm gonna pull it up 328 00:24:04,669 --> 00:24:05,609 -At my end. -Dr. Withrow: Absolutely. 329 00:24:08,689 --> 00:24:13,192 In looking at the summary of the external examination, 330 00:24:13,344 --> 00:24:17,029 They start with multiple blunt force injuries. 331 00:24:17,181 --> 00:24:20,349 You have a compound tibia-fibula fracture, 332 00:24:20,367 --> 00:24:21,850 So the lower leg. 333 00:24:21,944 --> 00:24:23,794 Um, there's a femur fracture, 334 00:24:23,946 --> 00:24:26,297 Which, the femur, the upper leg... 335 00:24:26,448 --> 00:24:28,207 It's essentially the strongest bone in the body, 336 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,860 So that's a serious high velocity injury. 337 00:24:31,879 --> 00:24:34,880 And then multiple chest injuries. 338 00:24:34,974 --> 00:24:37,641 Um, the sternum, or the breastbone, was fractured. 339 00:24:37,793 --> 00:24:38,959 -Yes. -Dr. Withrow: Uh, 340 00:24:38,978 --> 00:24:42,204 They found an injury to the aorta. 341 00:24:42,223 --> 00:24:46,150 An aortic injury like that has a very low survivability rate. 342 00:24:50,214 --> 00:24:52,156 Going on, they found, um, 343 00:24:52,383 --> 00:24:54,233 You know, the spleen had a rupture. 344 00:24:54,327 --> 00:24:59,071 So again, also, you know, an impact-type injury. 345 00:24:59,223 --> 00:25:01,724 The gear shift, could that be the object? 346 00:25:01,742 --> 00:25:04,076 'cause it's... I'm pretty sure it's, like, right there... 347 00:25:04,228 --> 00:25:05,911 -Dr. Withrow: For sure. -...On the console. 348 00:25:06,063 --> 00:25:09,173 It's right next to the spleen. I mean, it's on that, you know... 349 00:25:09,324 --> 00:25:10,341 If you're in the passenger seat... 350 00:25:10,492 --> 00:25:12,401 -Spencer: Oh, yeah, yeah. -...You know, 351 00:25:12,419 --> 00:25:17,089 You fall over on it, and it hits you here, I mean, definitely, it could. 352 00:25:17,241 --> 00:25:20,834 The head injuries. You know, there was a sphenoid bone injury, 353 00:25:20,853 --> 00:25:22,353 -Um... -What is a sphenoid bone? 354 00:25:22,580 --> 00:25:24,913 Basically a skull-base fracture that... 355 00:25:24,932 --> 00:25:29,101 Epidural hematoma. So, the blood around the brain, again, 356 00:25:29,195 --> 00:25:33,864 Is an indicator of acceleration, deceleration. 357 00:25:34,016 --> 00:25:37,943 So, all of that, in kind of, in total, I think, 358 00:25:38,095 --> 00:25:40,279 You don't get with a seat belt. 359 00:25:40,373 --> 00:25:42,689 To have one person with that degree of injury 360 00:25:42,708 --> 00:25:45,768 And the other with very little injury, 361 00:25:45,786 --> 00:25:49,713 You know, pretty well speaks to what was different between them. 362 00:25:51,217 --> 00:25:52,049 It's a seat belt. 363 00:25:59,450 --> 00:26:04,136 Spencer: The meeting with kirk is easily 364 00:26:04,288 --> 00:26:08,232 The best thing that's happened from a defense standpoint in this case. 365 00:26:10,127 --> 00:26:13,737 He was able to look at the injury on her body 366 00:26:13,964 --> 00:26:18,150 And conclude that she was not buckled. 367 00:26:18,302 --> 00:26:23,305 And she was slumped over and hit something low. 368 00:26:23,324 --> 00:26:26,066 And that is what killed her. 369 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,736 She would still be alive if she had her seat belt on. 370 00:26:29,755 --> 00:26:32,881 That ought to be taken into consideration by the jury. 371 00:26:45,087 --> 00:26:45,769 (doorbell rings) 372 00:26:47,923 --> 00:26:49,607 Spencer: Hey, guys, hey, margaret. 373 00:26:49,758 --> 00:26:50,941 -How are you, spencer? -Spencer: Good. 374 00:26:52,186 --> 00:26:52,943 I love you. 375 00:27:00,361 --> 00:27:02,694 Spencer: The good thing about a defendant taking the stand 376 00:27:02,788 --> 00:27:07,291 Is if they come off well, then they can kind of 377 00:27:07,442 --> 00:27:12,204 Make up for some other things in the case, that aren't perfect. 378 00:27:12,356 --> 00:27:16,525 And if the jury like and trust the defendant that's on the stand, 379 00:27:16,618 --> 00:27:19,285 Then that's, I mean, that's huge. 380 00:27:19,305 --> 00:27:23,048 But in order for me to put margaret on the stand, 381 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,534 I need to have absolutely certainty that 382 00:27:25,552 --> 00:27:28,103 She can recall the events with clarity. 383 00:27:30,708 --> 00:27:33,466 What actually happened that night... 384 00:27:33,486 --> 00:27:36,561 I wanted to, kind of, like, sequentially go through 385 00:27:36,656 --> 00:27:38,972 -Everything. -Mm-hmm. 386 00:27:39,066 --> 00:27:41,659 So, what is it that made you guys plan to go out to eat? 387 00:27:44,238 --> 00:27:47,164 She had a lot going on in her life, so did I. 388 00:27:47,315 --> 00:27:49,333 Spencer: What was going on in her life? 389 00:27:49,484 --> 00:27:52,728 -Some family problems. -Spencer: Okay. 390 00:27:52,746 --> 00:27:56,173 And so, let's say you eat and everything, 391 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,843 And it's, like, 10:00 when you left? 392 00:28:00,070 --> 00:28:02,846 -Margaret: I don't know. -Okay, 9:30, 10:00. 393 00:28:03,073 --> 00:28:06,166 And then you got to the gas station to get what? 394 00:28:06,185 --> 00:28:08,260 Margaret: Drinks and cigarettes. 395 00:28:08,412 --> 00:28:10,078 Are drinks alcoholic drinks 396 00:28:10,172 --> 00:28:11,914 -Or, like, sodas? -Margaret: Sodas. 397 00:28:12,007 --> 00:28:15,508 Spencer: Okay. And what happened next? 398 00:28:15,602 --> 00:28:17,194 We kind of rode around. 399 00:28:17,345 --> 00:28:20,105 Oh, so you guys just drove around? 400 00:28:20,257 --> 00:28:24,760 Okay. And then she starts feeling bad so you start to drive her home? 401 00:28:24,853 --> 00:28:27,687 Margaret: She broke out in a cold sweat. 402 00:28:27,781 --> 00:28:30,040 Spencer: And it was on highway 5 that she fell on you, 403 00:28:31,526 --> 00:28:33,359 And you lost control, 404 00:28:33,379 --> 00:28:36,455 And the wreck occurred, right? 405 00:28:36,607 --> 00:28:38,841 Margaret: Don't ask me where it happened, 'cause I don't know. 406 00:28:41,111 --> 00:28:42,052 Spencer: Do you remember her falling on you? 407 00:28:43,389 --> 00:28:44,947 Margaret: No. 408 00:28:44,965 --> 00:28:46,557 I don't remember the wreck. 409 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:50,894 Okay. 410 00:28:52,881 --> 00:28:56,959 I thought her falling over on you is when you lost control. 411 00:28:56,977 --> 00:28:59,862 It could be. I don't remember, though, spencer. 412 00:29:02,149 --> 00:29:05,868 I don't remember anything about the wreck, period. 413 00:29:07,154 --> 00:29:11,823 Okay. Um... 414 00:29:11,976 --> 00:29:16,420 What you're talking about right now is extremely unhelpful for you. 415 00:29:17,572 --> 00:29:19,572 I don't think you understand 416 00:29:19,666 --> 00:29:23,260 What you're saying, and how that is... Doesn't make sense. 417 00:29:23,487 --> 00:29:26,388 -And it's not what... -(jordan speaking) 418 00:29:32,754 --> 00:29:34,846 Spencer: You had told me in the beginning, 419 00:29:34,940 --> 00:29:37,757 She fell on you, you couldn't get her off you. 420 00:29:37,777 --> 00:29:40,277 I think that you're confused about everything that went on. 421 00:29:49,513 --> 00:29:53,682 I don't think margaret's memory is reliable in details really, at all. 422 00:29:53,700 --> 00:29:56,442 -Bye, guys. -Margaret: Bye, I love you. 423 00:29:56,462 --> 00:29:58,370 I love you, margaret. 424 00:29:58,522 --> 00:30:03,025 She seemed confused on certain areas. 425 00:30:03,043 --> 00:30:06,545 The moment that somebody seems dishonest, 426 00:30:06,697 --> 00:30:10,032 Their testimony is discounted, and that's it. 427 00:30:10,050 --> 00:30:11,642 You know, you can't unring that bell. 428 00:30:32,647 --> 00:30:36,241 There might be testimony about the nature of the relationship between 429 00:30:36,393 --> 00:30:39,169 The victim and margaret 430 00:30:39,396 --> 00:30:43,006 That jordan would know to be true or untrue. 431 00:30:43,233 --> 00:30:45,843 So, she's almost like a proxy for margaret. 432 00:30:46,070 --> 00:30:47,736 But there was a line of questioning 433 00:30:47,829 --> 00:30:49,996 That I had to ask margaret 434 00:30:50,090 --> 00:30:53,499 And jordan took exception to it, 435 00:30:53,594 --> 00:30:58,355 So I wanted to see how it is I think she's gonna be under cross-examination. 436 00:31:00,359 --> 00:31:01,507 How are you doing? 437 00:31:01,527 --> 00:31:04,269 -I'm doing okay. -Spencer: Okay. 438 00:31:04,363 --> 00:31:08,365 We're going to go over what it is I think you can do 439 00:31:08,516 --> 00:31:11,702 For your granny. 440 00:31:11,853 --> 00:31:16,373 I am not going to put margaret on the stand because of the unreliability of her memory. 441 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:18,116 Okay. 442 00:31:18,210 --> 00:31:22,546 Spencer: So, I need somebody who would be familiar with 443 00:31:22,773 --> 00:31:27,050 The specific relationship between 444 00:31:27,277 --> 00:31:30,888 The victim, veronica lynn ott, and your granny. 445 00:31:32,374 --> 00:31:36,542 So, if somebody testifies, 446 00:31:36,562 --> 00:31:39,137 "I don't even know why veronica was with margaret." 447 00:31:39,289 --> 00:31:40,288 -Mm-hmm -spencer: "she hated her. 448 00:31:40,382 --> 00:31:42,290 "they didn't even get along." 449 00:31:42,309 --> 00:31:44,401 What... For whatever reason. 450 00:31:44,628 --> 00:31:45,402 -Yeah. -Spencer: I would need you 451 00:31:45,629 --> 00:31:47,220 To testify as, like, 452 00:31:47,239 --> 00:31:49,573 -"no, that's not true." -okay. 453 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,558 You know? "this was my granny's best friend." 454 00:31:52,578 --> 00:31:55,746 Okay. She was granny's next door neighbor. 455 00:31:55,897 --> 00:32:00,976 Like, it was that close. And for years they lived that close. 456 00:32:01,069 --> 00:32:03,495 She didn't have a whole lot of friends 457 00:32:03,647 --> 00:32:07,165 Because she rarely got out of the house. 458 00:32:07,317 --> 00:32:11,428 But from the moment I was born, I feel like I had always... 459 00:32:11,655 --> 00:32:13,430 They had always been around each other 460 00:32:13,657 --> 00:32:15,915 And always been happy and friendly. 461 00:32:16,009 --> 00:32:19,161 Granny would not hurt anything. She doesn't have it in her. 462 00:32:19,179 --> 00:32:22,164 And they were both just two sweet ladies. 463 00:32:22,182 --> 00:32:23,832 -I don't know. (laughs) -spencer: Yeah. 464 00:32:23,850 --> 00:32:27,185 All right. So, tell me your feelings on being a witness, 465 00:32:27,279 --> 00:32:30,689 Going on the witness stand, and, 466 00:32:30,783 --> 00:32:33,784 You know, how you feel about that, just in general. 467 00:32:34,011 --> 00:32:35,860 When you said, "how do you feel about being a witness?" 468 00:32:36,013 --> 00:32:37,696 I felt, like, not that bad. 469 00:32:37,790 --> 00:32:39,289 And then you said, "how do you feel about getting on the stand?" 470 00:32:39,516 --> 00:32:40,865 And I was like, "ooh." (chuckles nervously) 471 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:42,292 Um, I'm nervous. 472 00:32:42,444 --> 00:32:48,190 I worry, too, like, that if I giggle, and I laugh, 473 00:32:48,283 --> 00:32:50,283 In nervous or uncomfortable situations. 474 00:32:50,377 --> 00:32:52,285 I don't wanna be up here and them ask me a serious question, 475 00:32:52,379 --> 00:32:54,362 And I, you know, laugh at 'em. 476 00:32:54,456 --> 00:32:57,623 And them say, "oh, this lady's not credible." 477 00:32:57,718 --> 00:32:59,643 But I will do it. I'll do whatever you need me to do. 478 00:33:00,795 --> 00:33:01,478 -(sighs) -spencer: Okay. 479 00:33:02,648 --> 00:33:04,982 That is extraordinarily helpful. 480 00:33:12,825 --> 00:33:15,993 The jordan interview went really well. 481 00:33:16,220 --> 00:33:19,721 When jordan says something to me, I believe it. 482 00:33:19,814 --> 00:33:24,392 But must most people don't understand just how difficult it is, 483 00:33:24,486 --> 00:33:28,672 When they've never taken the witness stand before. 484 00:33:28,823 --> 00:33:34,327 So, I'm just worried about how jordan might not be able to withstand the pressure 485 00:33:34,346 --> 00:33:37,639 Of the cross-examination by the prosecution. 486 00:33:52,531 --> 00:33:56,758 Today is the pretrial date, and I need to pretty much 487 00:33:56,777 --> 00:34:01,288 Hammer out what it is that's important that you don't want in the trial. 488 00:34:07,954 --> 00:34:11,214 The best case scenario today would be 489 00:34:11,366 --> 00:34:13,792 That the prosecutor agrees to not mention 490 00:34:13,944 --> 00:34:16,053 Any of the other drugs, other than the xanax. 491 00:34:17,297 --> 00:34:19,798 If I can't get those thrown out, 492 00:34:19,892 --> 00:34:23,468 Then I'm going to have lost the jury, 493 00:34:23,620 --> 00:34:25,020 Just as soon as the indictment's read. 494 00:34:27,808 --> 00:34:31,217 Margaret: I don't know what's gonna happen today. 495 00:34:31,311 --> 00:34:36,573 This has been going on for approximately seven years. 496 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:41,060 I feel very anxious as I'm going in to pretrial. 497 00:34:41,154 --> 00:34:43,914 Looking so forward for this to be done and over. 498 00:35:16,097 --> 00:35:17,856 Spencer: I was offered by the prosecutor 499 00:35:17,950 --> 00:35:21,451 A misdemeanor negligence charge with no jail time. 500 00:35:23,104 --> 00:35:24,037 (bleeping) 501 00:35:36,860 --> 00:35:39,970 The law enforcement officer on the case died. 502 00:35:40,714 --> 00:35:41,555 He died of covid. 503 00:35:49,797 --> 00:35:52,798 I mean, they can try the case without him. 504 00:35:52,893 --> 00:35:57,303 But it still is a pretty big kick to the prosecutor's case. 505 00:35:57,397 --> 00:36:01,992 And I think that kind of spurred the prosecutor to offer you... 506 00:36:03,811 --> 00:36:05,829 ...Uh, a misdemeanor with no jail time. 507 00:36:18,493 --> 00:36:20,427 I'm trying not to get my hopes up. 508 00:36:24,516 --> 00:36:25,432 Not now. 509 00:36:27,411 --> 00:36:29,686 I haven't heard it out of the judge's mouth. 510 00:36:33,675 --> 00:36:35,192 Spencer: With the offer we got today 511 00:36:35,419 --> 00:36:38,862 She would only be facing one minor misdemeanor 512 00:36:39,089 --> 00:36:42,365 For negligent homicide. So, no jail time. 513 00:36:52,953 --> 00:36:54,269 The chances of 514 00:36:54,362 --> 00:36:56,771 The victim, veronica ott's father, 515 00:36:56,864 --> 00:36:59,774 Agreeing to this plea agreement, 516 00:36:59,793 --> 00:37:02,368 I think probably are 50-50. 517 00:37:02,387 --> 00:37:04,704 Margaret... She's still facing 518 00:37:04,798 --> 00:37:06,965 The rest of her adult life 519 00:37:07,117 --> 00:37:09,351 In deplorable conditions in a cage. 520 00:37:10,787 --> 00:37:11,853 The race is not over. 521 00:37:25,226 --> 00:37:27,410 Margaret: Today is the big day. 522 00:37:29,748 --> 00:37:33,375 I'm very anxious, very nervous, scared. 523 00:37:45,430 --> 00:37:48,556 It's been seven to eight years that... 524 00:37:50,769 --> 00:37:54,604 ...This has been over my head. My life has been at a stop. 525 00:37:56,500 --> 00:37:57,274 And... 526 00:37:58,610 --> 00:38:00,110 ...It's been very, very hard. 527 00:38:10,622 --> 00:38:14,457 I'm so thankful for you darling, for being with me through all this. 528 00:38:15,685 --> 00:38:16,418 You got an eye lash. 529 00:38:20,299 --> 00:38:21,873 Margaret: Make a wish. 530 00:38:22,025 --> 00:38:22,966 It's made. (chuckles softly) 531 00:38:36,798 --> 00:38:38,982 If your granny goes to jail 532 00:38:40,393 --> 00:38:41,818 And then to prison, 533 00:38:43,713 --> 00:38:46,823 I don't want you to worry like last time. 534 00:38:50,737 --> 00:38:52,454 And try not to cry. 535 00:39:03,750 --> 00:39:07,735 Spencer: Today is a massive day. 536 00:39:07,829 --> 00:39:11,497 Margaret's life has been absolutely decimated by this case. 537 00:39:11,591 --> 00:39:13,641 The trauma of losing her friend, 538 00:39:14,519 --> 00:39:16,669 And the anxiety of 539 00:39:16,688 --> 00:39:20,690 Every day, not knowing if she's gonna spend the rest of her life in prison. 540 00:39:20,917 --> 00:39:23,342 This has been going on for seven years. 541 00:39:23,436 --> 00:39:26,421 We're either gonna find out that this long nightmare is over, 542 00:39:26,439 --> 00:39:29,366 Or it's really just, kind of, begun. 543 00:39:36,933 --> 00:39:38,666 (suspenseful music playing) 544 00:39:55,877 --> 00:39:57,685 (soft music playing) 545 00:40:25,165 --> 00:40:26,756 Yes, you've done a lot. 546 00:40:31,504 --> 00:40:32,578 I love you. 547 00:40:32,672 --> 00:40:33,596 -(kisses) -okay. 548 00:40:37,251 --> 00:40:39,060 Margaret: It's been a long journey. 549 00:40:41,106 --> 00:40:42,772 It's actually been hell. 550 00:40:44,759 --> 00:40:47,444 -But now, it's over. -It's over. 551 00:41:05,522 --> 00:41:06,296 So... 552 00:41:08,358 --> 00:41:12,302 You know everything was dismissed except for the misdemeanor. 553 00:41:13,454 --> 00:41:16,789 And the misdemeanor is 554 00:41:16,808 --> 00:41:18,641 Something that you have probation, just for two years. 555 00:41:29,971 --> 00:41:33,548 Spencer: There's really not words to describe how I feel right now. 556 00:41:33,566 --> 00:41:35,825 I mean, it's why I became an attorney, 557 00:41:35,977 --> 00:41:38,161 It's why I do what I do. 558 00:41:38,388 --> 00:41:40,722 And I don't know... I'm just, uh... 559 00:41:40,740 --> 00:41:41,998 I'm so happy for margaret. 560 00:41:44,836 --> 00:41:48,004 Margaret: I feel that veronica was with me today. 561 00:41:49,174 --> 00:41:51,566 She's always told me, 562 00:41:51,584 --> 00:41:53,843 "girl, everything's gonna be okay." 563 00:41:56,422 --> 00:41:57,514 And she was right. 564 00:42:00,334 --> 00:42:02,685 I can finally go on with my life.