1
00:00:05,564 --> 00:00:09,800
(police sirens blaring)
2
00:00:10,678 --> 00:00:11,844
(spencer speaking)
3
00:00:13,405 --> 00:00:14,179
(margaret speaking)
4
00:00:18,185 --> 00:00:19,834
(car revving)
5
00:00:19,854 --> 00:00:21,186
(spencer speaking)
6
00:00:21,413 --> 00:00:22,146
(margaret speaking)
7
00:00:23,858 --> 00:00:24,606
(spencer speaking)
8
00:00:29,104 --> 00:00:29,862
-(horn blaring)
-(glass shattering)
9
00:00:34,869 --> 00:00:37,352
Spencer: Margaret anticipates
that the turn is coming.
10
00:00:37,446 --> 00:00:39,687
Veronica fell over
on top of her,
11
00:00:39,782 --> 00:00:41,431
She couldn't get her off.
12
00:00:41,450 --> 00:00:43,709
And this caused margaret
to lose control,
13
00:00:44,770 --> 00:00:46,170
And hit an 18 -wheeler.
14
00:00:50,718 --> 00:00:52,626
Margaret has been
charged with murder
15
00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,555
Because she was found
with xanax in her system.
16
00:00:56,706 --> 00:00:59,850
The state's allegation is that
that is what caused
the accident.
17
00:01:06,475 --> 00:01:10,235
Margaret: I feel
like my life is ended.
18
00:01:10,387 --> 00:01:13,322
You get up,
and you feel like
you've been kicked back down,
19
00:01:14,241 --> 00:01:16,075
Because of this.
20
00:01:18,153 --> 00:01:19,536
It's been a long journey.
21
00:01:21,082 --> 00:01:22,414
It's time for it to be over.
22
00:01:36,413 --> 00:01:39,080
Spencer: My name
is spencer hodnett.
I'm a criminal defense attorney,
23
00:01:39,174 --> 00:01:41,433
And my client is margaret culp.
24
00:01:43,345 --> 00:01:45,270
Margaret's been
charged with murder,
25
00:01:45,422 --> 00:01:48,832
Which has a maximum sentence
of life in prison.
26
00:01:48,851 --> 00:01:52,169
Her being sentenced to prison
for the rest of her life,
27
00:01:52,262 --> 00:01:54,780
I think, would be
a grave injustice.
28
00:01:58,510 --> 00:02:00,694
Back in September of 2015,
29
00:02:00,846 --> 00:02:02,788
Margaret and her good friend,
veronica ott,
30
00:02:03,015 --> 00:02:06,441
Had dinner in the birmingham,
alabama area.
31
00:02:06,535 --> 00:02:10,129
Veronica had alcohol at dinner
and margaret did not,
32
00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:12,522
So margaret says,
for that reason,
33
00:02:12,616 --> 00:02:14,282
They both decided
that it was best
34
00:02:14,301 --> 00:02:18,137
For margaret to drive
veronica's car back.
35
00:02:18,288 --> 00:02:21,865
On the drive home,
veronica starts feeling ill.
36
00:02:21,958 --> 00:02:25,385
I think that margaret misjudges
her approach to a junction.
37
00:02:25,537 --> 00:02:29,055
She's in the wrong lane,
veronica falls on top of her,
38
00:02:29,208 --> 00:02:32,133
And she is unable
to get veronica off her,
39
00:02:32,153 --> 00:02:33,569
And get out of the wrong lane.
40
00:02:34,563 --> 00:02:35,487
This caused margaret...
41
00:02:37,216 --> 00:02:38,782
...To hit an 18-wheeler.
42
00:02:42,145 --> 00:02:45,956
Unfortunately,
veronica died from multiple
blunt force injuries.
43
00:02:52,581 --> 00:02:53,747
Margaret goes on with life,
44
00:02:53,899 --> 00:02:56,400
Even though
she's devastated by
45
00:02:56,418 --> 00:02:59,595
The death of her very
good friend, veronica.
46
00:03:01,423 --> 00:03:02,997
And then, out of the blue,
47
00:03:03,017 --> 00:03:05,258
Over 18 months later,
48
00:03:05,352 --> 00:03:07,769
She gets charged
with the murder of veronica.
49
00:03:09,581 --> 00:03:12,098
The reason why margaret
was charged with murder,
50
00:03:12,193 --> 00:03:14,509
In the case
according to the prosecution,
51
00:03:14,528 --> 00:03:18,346
Was that she had the sedative
xanax in her system.
52
00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:20,848
The prosecution claimed that,
53
00:03:20,868 --> 00:03:25,779
Being under
the influence of xanax,
margaret was impaired,
54
00:03:25,931 --> 00:03:29,208
And that created
a grave risk of death.
55
00:03:29,359 --> 00:03:32,211
According to margaret,
she had taken xanax
56
00:03:32,438 --> 00:03:35,214
But she had not
taken her full dose
57
00:03:35,441 --> 00:03:37,049
For that day,
that she had been prescribed.
58
00:03:39,053 --> 00:03:43,447
The defense's position is that
this is a tragic accident.
59
00:03:43,465 --> 00:03:46,283
Margaret's recollection was that
60
00:03:46,301 --> 00:03:48,785
Veronica was not
wearing her seat belt.
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00:03:48,804 --> 00:03:51,137
Veronica fell over on her,
62
00:03:51,290 --> 00:03:53,790
And that caused the wreck.
63
00:03:53,809 --> 00:03:56,735
And we believe that we are gonna
be able to show that at trial.
64
00:04:04,561 --> 00:04:08,372
Margaret is somebody
I've grown
to care a lot about.
65
00:04:09,308 --> 00:04:11,491
She is not a murderer.
66
00:04:11,643 --> 00:04:16,070
She was in a terrible accident
that killed her best friend.
67
00:04:16,090 --> 00:04:18,423
And I intend for us
to show this.
68
00:04:23,079 --> 00:04:23,887
(melancholy music playing)
69
00:04:42,024 --> 00:04:44,174
Margaret: When I
think about the case,
70
00:04:44,267 --> 00:04:46,743
I feel like my life is ended.
71
00:04:49,364 --> 00:04:53,292
I knew veronica
for over 20 years.
72
00:04:53,443 --> 00:04:55,419
She was like
a second daughter.
73
00:04:57,464 --> 00:05:00,132
She was funny, happy-go-lucky.
74
00:05:01,543 --> 00:05:04,285
Veronica always wanted children,
75
00:05:04,379 --> 00:05:05,929
To be married, have a family.
76
00:05:07,308 --> 00:05:10,625
She never got that.
77
00:05:10,719 --> 00:05:14,604
I've wished, so many times,
that it would have been me
and not her.
78
00:05:17,967 --> 00:05:21,561
I could never imagine
that I would be
79
00:05:21,713 --> 00:05:26,158
Someone that was charged
with murdering anything
or anyone.
80
00:05:27,995 --> 00:05:33,740
If we'd seen a little animal
here, dying, I couldn't kill it.
81
00:05:33,892 --> 00:05:36,168
(sniffs) much less
a human that I loved.
82
00:05:38,730 --> 00:05:42,758
Not to have veronica in my life
is a very large void.
83
00:05:44,494 --> 00:05:46,928
I will miss her
till I take my last breath.
84
00:05:54,337 --> 00:05:57,689
Justice for me right now
would be the truth.
85
00:05:59,342 --> 00:06:03,862
This all being worked out
and over. Freed from it.
86
00:06:07,593 --> 00:06:12,429
The thought of, uh, grandkids,
my daughter, my mother,
87
00:06:12,447 --> 00:06:14,355
Hearing you're guilty...
88
00:06:14,375 --> 00:06:17,834
(sniffs) I can't stand
the thought of that.
89
00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:21,380
And I know I wouldn't make it.
90
00:06:25,219 --> 00:06:26,051
(sniffs)
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00:06:48,909 --> 00:06:52,135
Spencer: I have the statute
pulled up right here.
92
00:06:52,154 --> 00:06:55,872
And it's a good idea for you
to know, specifically,
what they're accusing you of.
93
00:06:57,809 --> 00:07:00,644
"margaret ann culp did,
94
00:07:00,662 --> 00:07:05,239
"under circumstances
manifesting extreme indifference
to human life,
95
00:07:05,259 --> 00:07:07,592
"recklessly engage in conduct
96
00:07:07,819 --> 00:07:11,579
"which created a grave risk
of death to a person
other than herself,
97
00:07:11,598 --> 00:07:13,557
"and thereby caused
the death of another person."
98
00:07:14,843 --> 00:07:16,184
So, that's what they're saying.
99
00:07:18,087 --> 00:07:20,497
That's not
what happened, though.
100
00:07:20,590 --> 00:07:24,109
Yeah. Well, I don't
think what you did
101
00:07:24,260 --> 00:07:27,612
Is close to manifesting
extreme indifference
to human life.
102
00:07:28,782 --> 00:07:30,782
That's one of the reasons why
103
00:07:31,452 --> 00:07:33,843
Your case is,
104
00:07:33,862 --> 00:07:36,437
-To me, such...
-So bizarre.
105
00:07:36,531 --> 00:07:39,440
-Crazy.
-Well, wrong.
106
00:07:39,460 --> 00:07:40,625
It's wrong, I believe.
107
00:07:41,295 --> 00:07:43,462
I agree.
108
00:07:43,689 --> 00:07:47,857
If she died from
not having her seat belt on,
109
00:07:47,876 --> 00:07:50,469
Who's to blame for her
not putting her seat belt on?
110
00:07:50,696 --> 00:07:54,639
So, that's something for us
to explore further.
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00:07:56,218 --> 00:07:58,310
The sentencing part of this
112
00:07:58,537 --> 00:08:02,647
Is, "murder is
a class a felony."
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00:08:02,799 --> 00:08:04,566
The punishment for murder,
it would be 10 to life.
114
00:08:07,804 --> 00:08:09,379
-And that's if you have...
-Ten years to life?
115
00:08:09,397 --> 00:08:10,322
Spencer:
Ten years to life.
116
00:08:17,723 --> 00:08:19,122
Margaret: I wouldn't
live that long.
117
00:08:23,245 --> 00:08:24,920
This journey has been hell.
118
00:08:26,915 --> 00:08:28,465
And I'm ready for it to end.
119
00:08:29,843 --> 00:08:30,800
(sniffs)
120
00:08:33,830 --> 00:08:35,305
I love you,
I'm getting out of here.
121
00:08:36,758 --> 00:08:37,849
I love you, too, margaret.
122
00:08:38,927 --> 00:08:39,768
(margaret speaking)
123
00:08:44,525 --> 00:08:45,357
(sniffs)
124
00:08:46,601 --> 00:08:47,751
-Bye, rena.
-Rena: Bye.
125
00:08:47,844 --> 00:08:49,528
-I love you. Pray for me.
-Rena: I will.
126
00:08:51,940 --> 00:08:52,822
(sighs)
127
00:08:53,534 --> 00:08:54,491
(sniffs)
128
00:08:57,538 --> 00:08:59,612
Spencer: To go after a woman
for having a car wreck,
129
00:08:59,765 --> 00:09:03,024
And then charging her
with murder for the best friend,
130
00:09:03,043 --> 00:09:06,953
I think it's psychologically
cruel and I think it's wrong.
131
00:09:07,105 --> 00:09:11,441
The system lends itself
to going heavy after the poor,
132
00:09:11,534 --> 00:09:14,869
Because the poor
don't have the resources
to defend themselves.
133
00:09:14,963 --> 00:09:16,613
It's much easier
134
00:09:16,706 --> 00:09:20,058
To convict people
who can't fight back.
135
00:09:20,285 --> 00:09:23,210
So, my strategy is
to just remind the jury,
136
00:09:23,305 --> 00:09:25,789
Even though she took the xanax,
137
00:09:25,807 --> 00:09:30,735
The cause of the wreck was
that veronica fell on my client,
138
00:09:30,887 --> 00:09:32,237
And that it was
a horrible accident.
139
00:09:35,576 --> 00:09:39,869
That sentence was
new information
that I just discovered today.
140
00:09:41,915 --> 00:09:42,998
I'm scared.
141
00:09:44,326 --> 00:09:46,476
It's not justice.
142
00:09:46,494 --> 00:09:48,920
Why don't they go out here,
143
00:09:49,147 --> 00:09:51,172
And arrest some of these people
that are...
144
00:09:53,151 --> 00:09:55,677
Are really
murdering people, and...
145
00:09:58,432 --> 00:10:00,724
(voice faltering)
it's wrong. It's so wrong.
146
00:10:26,368 --> 00:10:27,959
Spencer: I'm going
to the crash scene
147
00:10:28,186 --> 00:10:32,279
Because I need to show
that margaret's claim
148
00:10:32,299 --> 00:10:34,949
About veronica
falling over on her
149
00:10:35,043 --> 00:10:37,594
Being what caused the wreck
150
00:10:38,380 --> 00:10:39,804
Is what happened.
151
00:10:43,810 --> 00:10:44,643
(softly) perfect.
152
00:10:58,158 --> 00:11:00,066
Okay.
153
00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,327
I think this specific spot
is where the wreck happened.
154
00:11:03,905 --> 00:11:07,082
It would be right
before that junction.
155
00:11:10,412 --> 00:11:13,755
That makes sense
'cause there is a railing
on both sides.
156
00:11:38,773 --> 00:11:41,107
According to law enforcement,
157
00:11:41,201 --> 00:11:45,370
The truck was getting up steam
down by the junction.
158
00:11:47,432 --> 00:11:51,284
Margaret would have been
wanting to take a left.
159
00:11:51,436 --> 00:11:54,787
I think she anticipates
that the turn is coming,
160
00:11:54,881 --> 00:11:55,714
She did not...
161
00:11:57,384 --> 00:12:00,701
...You know, um,
judge it correctly.
162
00:12:00,721 --> 00:12:03,963
She mistakes
the on ramp for the exit,
163
00:12:04,115 --> 00:12:07,208
And starts to change lanes
too early.
164
00:12:07,227 --> 00:12:09,185
Therefore, she was on
the wrong side of the road.
165
00:12:11,881 --> 00:12:15,400
Veronica fell over
on top of her,
she could not get her off,
166
00:12:15,627 --> 00:12:18,236
Which causes her
to stay in the wrong lane.
167
00:12:19,297 --> 00:12:20,572
Bam, there's the wreck.
168
00:12:25,561 --> 00:12:28,896
What margaret needed
was to not be
169
00:12:28,915 --> 00:12:32,475
Contradicted by the topography
170
00:12:32,494 --> 00:12:35,311
Or where the wreck happened.
171
00:12:35,330 --> 00:12:39,073
I feel like this
kind of helps her story,
172
00:12:39,092 --> 00:12:40,592
And in no way hurts her story.
173
00:12:50,437 --> 00:12:53,162
Jordan: I don't know
what we're gonna do
if it gets any hotter.
174
00:12:53,181 --> 00:12:54,755
Margaret: Are you
burning up, darling?
175
00:12:54,775 --> 00:12:56,191
-Yeah.
-Oh.
176
00:13:06,769 --> 00:13:09,788
Jordan: I don't
know what I would do
if you had to go back to prison.
177
00:13:12,292 --> 00:13:13,708
Margaret: It's gonna be okay.
178
00:13:18,131 --> 00:13:19,047
(sniffs)
179
00:13:30,644 --> 00:13:33,719
Jordan: She was
living with my mom
before she came here.
180
00:13:33,814 --> 00:13:36,130
But they argue a lot, so...
181
00:13:36,224 --> 00:13:38,966
I guess I'm easier to live with.
182
00:13:39,060 --> 00:13:44,638
It's been a living hell for her
and the family since it started.
183
00:13:44,732 --> 00:13:49,476
It really has affected her
with not having her own life.
184
00:13:49,496 --> 00:13:52,146
She lived in the same place,
185
00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,892
Like, my whole childhood, so...
186
00:13:55,985 --> 00:14:00,296
It's... It's sad
to see her not have
her independence anymore.
187
00:14:03,176 --> 00:14:05,918
Margaret: Sometimes, I feel
like I'm on jordan's toes,
188
00:14:06,071 --> 00:14:06,845
Being here.
189
00:14:09,908 --> 00:14:11,808
I know it's interfering
with her life,
190
00:14:13,502 --> 00:14:15,186
Having me around
all the time.
191
00:14:17,357 --> 00:14:20,608
But I don't know
what I would do without her.
192
00:14:25,681 --> 00:14:30,517
Jordan: I think that
she is an amazing granny,
and I love her.
193
00:14:30,612 --> 00:14:34,539
She could possibly
be going to prison
for the rest of her life.
194
00:14:36,025 --> 00:14:38,601
And the thought of her,
at her age,
195
00:14:38,620 --> 00:14:42,046
To be put in there
and isolated...
196
00:14:42,273 --> 00:14:46,676
I just don't see how
she could last very long.
197
00:14:48,796 --> 00:14:51,055
She didn't do well
when she was in there before.
198
00:14:53,059 --> 00:14:55,560
She doesn't like
talking about it,
and I don't... (sniffs)
199
00:14:56,396 --> 00:14:57,312
I don't wanna
200
00:14:58,565 --> 00:15:00,565
Ask her about it.
201
00:15:02,903 --> 00:15:03,860
Come on.
202
00:15:06,072 --> 00:15:07,572
I pray to god
203
00:15:09,225 --> 00:15:12,035
That somehow, someway,
this will be dismissed.
204
00:15:27,986 --> 00:15:29,052
This is interesting.
205
00:15:39,922 --> 00:15:41,681
When you get
a toxicological report
206
00:15:41,775 --> 00:15:44,425
From the department
of forensic sciences,
207
00:15:44,519 --> 00:15:47,928
They test for a bunch of drugs.
208
00:15:48,022 --> 00:15:50,764
And they're all listed here.
209
00:15:50,858 --> 00:15:55,286
And this is the list of things
that she came up positive for.
210
00:15:55,513 --> 00:15:59,457
She has
40 nanograms per milliliter
of xanax,
211
00:15:59,684 --> 00:16:03,211
And trace amounts
of morphine and oxycodone.
212
00:16:20,722 --> 00:16:22,796
So, they're saying that
213
00:16:22,890 --> 00:16:25,483
This combination, somehow,
214
00:16:25,634 --> 00:16:29,212
Of tiny, trace amounts
of morphine,
215
00:16:29,305 --> 00:16:32,215
Tiny, trace amounts
of oxycodone,
216
00:16:32,308 --> 00:16:36,219
And just a therapeutic dose
of xanax
217
00:16:36,237 --> 00:16:38,571
Created the grave risk of death.
218
00:16:38,723 --> 00:16:42,241
But I think that it would
not have had any impact
219
00:16:42,393 --> 00:16:44,085
On whether she was
impaired or not.
220
00:16:56,074 --> 00:16:59,017
They have to prove
that her taking the xanax,
221
00:16:59,244 --> 00:17:01,019
She would know
she would be impaired
222
00:17:01,170 --> 00:17:04,413
To the point of
likely killing somebody.
223
00:17:04,507 --> 00:17:08,084
But because of the morphine
and oxycodone,
224
00:17:08,177 --> 00:17:12,613
I'm very worried
about it affecting the way
that they decide the case.
225
00:17:14,442 --> 00:17:16,367
If I'm gonna be sitting here,
226
00:17:16,594 --> 00:17:20,538
Discussing levels of impairment
and that kind of thing,
227
00:17:21,432 --> 00:17:22,206
I'm losing.
228
00:17:32,443 --> 00:17:33,885
(suspenseful music playing)
229
00:17:34,036 --> 00:17:35,536
Spencer: Margaret.
Margaret: Yeah.
230
00:17:35,555 --> 00:17:37,963
Spencer: Jordan. Hey, guys.
How you feeling, margaret?
231
00:17:38,058 --> 00:17:38,848
Hello, spencer.
232
00:17:40,285 --> 00:17:41,059
Not so well.
233
00:17:51,905 --> 00:17:55,798
Spencer: I think that
the oxycodone and morphine
234
00:17:55,817 --> 00:17:57,316
Were put in the indictment
235
00:17:57,410 --> 00:17:59,911
To influence the jury
and make them think that
236
00:18:00,138 --> 00:18:01,804
Margaret is some
kind of drug addict,
237
00:18:01,823 --> 00:18:03,748
Responsible for
murdering her friend.
238
00:18:03,899 --> 00:18:06,992
And I believe that these
should be excluded at trial,
239
00:18:07,145 --> 00:18:10,571
Because there were
only trace amounts
in her system.
240
00:18:10,665 --> 00:18:13,549
So this is not something
that could have impaired her.
241
00:18:28,833 --> 00:18:31,667
The xanax is going
to be a problem.
242
00:18:31,686 --> 00:18:36,948
So knowing how long
margaret has been on xanax,
is extremely important.
243
00:18:37,099 --> 00:18:41,268
If she was just prescribed this
a couple of months
before the accident,
244
00:18:41,362 --> 00:18:44,363
Then that's a lot different
than if she had been
on it for a while
245
00:18:44,515 --> 00:18:45,623
And had built up a tolerance.
246
00:18:48,536 --> 00:18:50,853
Okay, margaret, so,
247
00:18:50,946 --> 00:18:53,038
What I need to
talk to you about today
248
00:18:53,191 --> 00:18:55,758
Is your prescriptions of xanax.
249
00:18:58,696 --> 00:19:00,805
I think the whole question
with any of this
250
00:19:00,956 --> 00:19:05,868
Is whether or not xanax
made it where you're
too impaired to drive.
251
00:19:05,887 --> 00:19:10,815
So, when was the first time
that you were prescribed xanax?
252
00:19:12,543 --> 00:19:15,969
Margaret: I've probably
been on xanax for
253
00:19:15,989 --> 00:19:17,780
At least 30 years.
254
00:19:18,900 --> 00:19:20,491
Jordan: Since before I was born,
255
00:19:20,718 --> 00:19:23,619
I've known that she's had
a prescription for xanax.
256
00:19:25,481 --> 00:19:28,166
The very first time
you got prescribed
anxiety medicine
257
00:19:28,317 --> 00:19:30,835
Was when you miscarried,
was it not?
258
00:19:30,986 --> 00:19:32,503
When I had my stillborn.
259
00:19:33,673 --> 00:19:34,797
-I was 19.
-Spencer: Okay.
260
00:19:36,009 --> 00:19:36,841
I'm sorry.
261
00:19:39,237 --> 00:19:43,239
Margaret: And there was
deaths in my family.
262
00:19:43,332 --> 00:19:47,351
Spencer: Okay,
so what deaths in your family
got you prescribed xanax?
263
00:19:48,596 --> 00:19:49,854
Jordan: Her husband died.
264
00:19:53,008 --> 00:19:54,841
Spencer: Okay, your husband?
265
00:19:54,861 --> 00:19:57,511
Margaret: We were
about to get married.
266
00:19:57,530 --> 00:20:00,606
Spencer: So he was
your fiance? Okay.
267
00:20:00,758 --> 00:20:02,925
And how did he die?
268
00:20:03,018 --> 00:20:04,327
Margaret:
He committed suicide.
269
00:20:08,099 --> 00:20:09,040
Spencer: How did
he commit suicide?
270
00:20:10,451 --> 00:20:12,835
Put a 9mm to his chest...
271
00:20:15,364 --> 00:20:16,714
...And blew his (bleep) away.
272
00:20:18,626 --> 00:20:19,383
Spencer: Who found him?
273
00:20:20,611 --> 00:20:21,385
I did.
274
00:20:23,056 --> 00:20:25,723
Why does this matter?
I'm sorry, like, how is this
275
00:20:25,874 --> 00:20:27,132
-Helping?
-Spencer: Why does it matter?
276
00:20:27,285 --> 00:20:28,893
Because if I cross-examine
somebody about something
277
00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:31,303
And I don't know what it is,
I'll look ignorant.
278
00:20:31,456 --> 00:20:32,638
Jordan: But this doesn't...
279
00:20:32,732 --> 00:20:33,639
-It's very important.
-Jordan:...Have to do
280
00:20:33,733 --> 00:20:35,140
With anything.
281
00:20:35,293 --> 00:20:37,126
Okay. So...
282
00:20:37,144 --> 00:20:39,219
Could you please
go out of the office
while I ask her these questions?
283
00:20:39,239 --> 00:20:40,404
-They're important to me.
-Jordan: Okay.
284
00:20:42,057 --> 00:20:42,982
And this is not helpful.
285
00:20:43,076 --> 00:20:43,908
Jordan: Okay.
286
00:20:53,402 --> 00:20:57,646
Spencer: Margaret, the reason
why I need to know this
287
00:20:57,665 --> 00:21:02,426
Is because I have to know
what the story is
behind this fiance.
288
00:21:02,653 --> 00:21:05,078
I have to set the stage
to why it is
289
00:21:05,172 --> 00:21:09,600
That you've chronically used
anti-anxiety medication, right?
290
00:21:11,829 --> 00:21:13,604
But you don't need
to talk about it anymore,
if you don't want to.
291
00:21:18,093 --> 00:21:18,776
Spencer: I'm really sorry.
292
00:21:19,779 --> 00:21:20,736
(sniffs)
293
00:21:25,176 --> 00:21:27,118
I live with this every day.
294
00:21:28,288 --> 00:21:29,287
I understand.
295
00:21:30,290 --> 00:21:31,122
I'm sorry.
296
00:21:37,463 --> 00:21:38,421
(sniffs)
297
00:21:41,208 --> 00:21:42,967
-I need to go.
-Yes.
298
00:21:48,699 --> 00:21:50,032
Jordan: You good?
Margaret: Uh-huh.
299
00:21:50,051 --> 00:21:52,201
Jordan: You okay?
300
00:21:52,219 --> 00:21:53,719
I'd like to go ahead
and get her home.
301
00:21:53,813 --> 00:21:54,645
Spencer: Okay.
302
00:21:59,710 --> 00:22:03,303
That was a little bit more...
303
00:22:03,323 --> 00:22:06,640
...Emotional than even
I thought it was going to be.
304
00:22:06,659 --> 00:22:08,975
Jordan thought
I was too specific
305
00:22:08,995 --> 00:22:12,145
About the situation
with the fiance.
306
00:22:12,165 --> 00:22:14,723
But the questions
had to be asked.
307
00:22:14,742 --> 00:22:19,562
The fact that she has been
on xanax for 30 years
is huge,
308
00:22:19,580 --> 00:22:23,507
Because the amount
that margaret had in her system
309
00:22:23,659 --> 00:22:26,159
Would not affect her
310
00:22:26,179 --> 00:22:29,088
Nearly to the degree
of somebody who had
never taken xanax before.
311
00:22:29,182 --> 00:22:31,907
Her driving wasn't impaired
because of the xanax.
312
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,094
Nothing was affected, other than
313
00:22:35,246 --> 00:22:37,838
Making life manageable for her.
314
00:22:37,857 --> 00:22:40,316
And that I feel like
I can spell out to the jury
pretty easily.
315
00:23:06,277 --> 00:23:10,221
Today, I'm gonna go see
a surgeon named
dr. Kirk withrow.
316
00:23:19,565 --> 00:23:22,975
The best case scenario today
is that
317
00:23:23,127 --> 00:23:26,128
The doctor looks
at the injuries,
318
00:23:26,147 --> 00:23:30,074
And thinks that they
corroborate margaret's story
319
00:23:30,301 --> 00:23:32,985
That the victim
fell over on margaret
320
00:23:33,137 --> 00:23:35,154
Because she didn't
have her seat belt on.
321
00:23:35,306 --> 00:23:38,082
I mean, that's...
That's like a golden ticket.
322
00:23:46,426 --> 00:23:47,258
How you doing?
323
00:23:49,987 --> 00:23:53,338
What I'm looking for
is basically just the
324
00:23:53,491 --> 00:23:56,416
Injuries on this autopsy,
325
00:23:56,510 --> 00:24:01,087
To, you know,
make sure that I know
exactly what they are.
326
00:24:01,182 --> 00:24:02,665
So, can you pull that up?
327
00:24:02,683 --> 00:24:04,442
-Dr. Withrow: Yeah.
-And I'm gonna pull it up
328
00:24:04,669 --> 00:24:05,609
-At my end.
-Dr. Withrow: Absolutely.
329
00:24:08,689 --> 00:24:13,192
In looking at the summary
of the external examination,
330
00:24:13,344 --> 00:24:17,029
They start with multiple
blunt force injuries.
331
00:24:17,181 --> 00:24:20,349
You have a compound
tibia-fibula fracture,
332
00:24:20,367 --> 00:24:21,850
So the lower leg.
333
00:24:21,944 --> 00:24:23,794
Um, there's a femur fracture,
334
00:24:23,946 --> 00:24:26,297
Which, the femur,
the upper leg...
335
00:24:26,448 --> 00:24:28,207
It's essentially the strongest
bone in the body,
336
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,860
So that's a serious
high velocity injury.
337
00:24:31,879 --> 00:24:34,880
And then
multiple chest injuries.
338
00:24:34,974 --> 00:24:37,641
Um, the sternum,
or the breastbone,
was fractured.
339
00:24:37,793 --> 00:24:38,959
-Yes.
-Dr. Withrow: Uh,
340
00:24:38,978 --> 00:24:42,204
They found
an injury to the aorta.
341
00:24:42,223 --> 00:24:46,150
An aortic injury like that
has a very low
survivability rate.
342
00:24:50,214 --> 00:24:52,156
Going on, they found, um,
343
00:24:52,383 --> 00:24:54,233
You know, the spleen
had a rupture.
344
00:24:54,327 --> 00:24:59,071
So again, also, you know,
an impact-type injury.
345
00:24:59,223 --> 00:25:01,724
The gear shift,
could that be the object?
346
00:25:01,742 --> 00:25:04,076
'cause it's...
I'm pretty sure it's,
like, right there...
347
00:25:04,228 --> 00:25:05,911
-Dr. Withrow: For sure.
-...On the console.
348
00:25:06,063 --> 00:25:09,173
It's right next to the spleen.
I mean, it's on that,
you know...
349
00:25:09,324 --> 00:25:10,341
If you're in
the passenger seat...
350
00:25:10,492 --> 00:25:12,401
-Spencer: Oh, yeah, yeah.
-...You know,
351
00:25:12,419 --> 00:25:17,089
You fall over on it,
and it hits you here,
I mean, definitely, it could.
352
00:25:17,241 --> 00:25:20,834
The head injuries.
You know, there was
a sphenoid bone injury,
353
00:25:20,853 --> 00:25:22,353
-Um...
-What is a sphenoid bone?
354
00:25:22,580 --> 00:25:24,913
Basically a skull-base
fracture that...
355
00:25:24,932 --> 00:25:29,101
Epidural hematoma. So, the blood
around the brain, again,
356
00:25:29,195 --> 00:25:33,864
Is an indicator
of acceleration, deceleration.
357
00:25:34,016 --> 00:25:37,943
So, all of that, in kind of,
in total, I think,
358
00:25:38,095 --> 00:25:40,279
You don't get with a seat belt.
359
00:25:40,373 --> 00:25:42,689
To have one person
with that degree of injury
360
00:25:42,708 --> 00:25:45,768
And the other
with very little injury,
361
00:25:45,786 --> 00:25:49,713
You know, pretty well speaks to
what was different between them.
362
00:25:51,217 --> 00:25:52,049
It's a seat belt.
363
00:25:59,450 --> 00:26:04,136
Spencer: The meeting with kirk
is easily
364
00:26:04,288 --> 00:26:08,232
The best thing that's happened
from a defense standpoint
in this case.
365
00:26:10,127 --> 00:26:13,737
He was able to look
at the injury on her body
366
00:26:13,964 --> 00:26:18,150
And conclude that
she was not buckled.
367
00:26:18,302 --> 00:26:23,305
And she was slumped over
and hit something low.
368
00:26:23,324 --> 00:26:26,066
And that is what killed her.
369
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,736
She would still be alive
if she had her seat belt on.
370
00:26:29,755 --> 00:26:32,881
That ought to be
taken into consideration
by the jury.
371
00:26:45,087 --> 00:26:45,769
(doorbell rings)
372
00:26:47,923 --> 00:26:49,607
Spencer:
Hey, guys, hey, margaret.
373
00:26:49,758 --> 00:26:50,941
-How are you, spencer?
-Spencer: Good.
374
00:26:52,186 --> 00:26:52,943
I love you.
375
00:27:00,361 --> 00:27:02,694
Spencer: The good thing about
a defendant taking the stand
376
00:27:02,788 --> 00:27:07,291
Is if they come off well,
then they can kind of
377
00:27:07,442 --> 00:27:12,204
Make up for some
other things in the case,
that aren't perfect.
378
00:27:12,356 --> 00:27:16,525
And if the jury like
and trust the defendant
that's on the stand,
379
00:27:16,618 --> 00:27:19,285
Then that's,
I mean, that's huge.
380
00:27:19,305 --> 00:27:23,048
But in order for me
to put margaret on the stand,
381
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,534
I need to have
absolutely certainty that
382
00:27:25,552 --> 00:27:28,103
She can recall
the events with clarity.
383
00:27:30,708 --> 00:27:33,466
What actually
happened that night...
384
00:27:33,486 --> 00:27:36,561
I wanted to, kind of, like,
sequentially go through
385
00:27:36,656 --> 00:27:38,972
-Everything.
-Mm-hmm.
386
00:27:39,066 --> 00:27:41,659
So, what is it that made
you guys plan to go out to eat?
387
00:27:44,238 --> 00:27:47,164
She had a lot going on
in her life, so did I.
388
00:27:47,315 --> 00:27:49,333
Spencer: What was
going on in her life?
389
00:27:49,484 --> 00:27:52,728
-Some family problems.
-Spencer: Okay.
390
00:27:52,746 --> 00:27:56,173
And so, let's say
you eat and everything,
391
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,843
And it's, like, 10:00
when you left?
392
00:28:00,070 --> 00:28:02,846
-Margaret: I don't know.
-Okay, 9:30, 10:00.
393
00:28:03,073 --> 00:28:06,166
And then you got to
the gas station to get what?
394
00:28:06,185 --> 00:28:08,260
Margaret: Drinks and cigarettes.
395
00:28:08,412 --> 00:28:10,078
Are drinks alcoholic drinks
396
00:28:10,172 --> 00:28:11,914
-Or, like, sodas?
-Margaret: Sodas.
397
00:28:12,007 --> 00:28:15,508
Spencer: Okay.
And what happened next?
398
00:28:15,602 --> 00:28:17,194
We kind of rode around.
399
00:28:17,345 --> 00:28:20,105
Oh, so you guys
just drove around?
400
00:28:20,257 --> 00:28:24,760
Okay. And then
she starts feeling bad
so you start to drive her home?
401
00:28:24,853 --> 00:28:27,687
Margaret: She broke out
in a cold sweat.
402
00:28:27,781 --> 00:28:30,040
Spencer:
And it was on highway 5
that she fell on you,
403
00:28:31,526 --> 00:28:33,359
And you lost control,
404
00:28:33,379 --> 00:28:36,455
And the wreck occurred, right?
405
00:28:36,607 --> 00:28:38,841
Margaret: Don't ask me
where it happened,
'cause I don't know.
406
00:28:41,111 --> 00:28:42,052
Spencer: Do you remember
her falling on you?
407
00:28:43,389 --> 00:28:44,947
Margaret: No.
408
00:28:44,965 --> 00:28:46,557
I don't remember the wreck.
409
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:50,894
Okay.
410
00:28:52,881 --> 00:28:56,959
I thought her
falling over on you
is when you lost control.
411
00:28:56,977 --> 00:28:59,862
It could be. I don't
remember, though, spencer.
412
00:29:02,149 --> 00:29:05,868
I don't remember anything
about the wreck, period.
413
00:29:07,154 --> 00:29:11,823
Okay. Um...
414
00:29:11,976 --> 00:29:16,420
What you're
talking about right now
is extremely unhelpful for you.
415
00:29:17,572 --> 00:29:19,572
I don't think you understand
416
00:29:19,666 --> 00:29:23,260
What you're saying,
and how that is...
Doesn't make sense.
417
00:29:23,487 --> 00:29:26,388
-And it's not what...
-(jordan speaking)
418
00:29:32,754 --> 00:29:34,846
Spencer: You had
told me in the beginning,
419
00:29:34,940 --> 00:29:37,757
She fell on you,
you couldn't get her off you.
420
00:29:37,777 --> 00:29:40,277
I think that you're confused
about everything that went on.
421
00:29:49,513 --> 00:29:53,682
I don't think margaret's memory
is reliable in details
really, at all.
422
00:29:53,700 --> 00:29:56,442
-Bye, guys.
-Margaret: Bye, I love you.
423
00:29:56,462 --> 00:29:58,370
I love you, margaret.
424
00:29:58,522 --> 00:30:03,025
She seemed confused
on certain areas.
425
00:30:03,043 --> 00:30:06,545
The moment that
somebody seems dishonest,
426
00:30:06,697 --> 00:30:10,032
Their testimony is discounted,
and that's it.
427
00:30:10,050 --> 00:30:11,642
You know, you can't
unring that bell.
428
00:30:32,647 --> 00:30:36,241
There might be testimony
about the nature of the
relationship between
429
00:30:36,393 --> 00:30:39,169
The victim and margaret
430
00:30:39,396 --> 00:30:43,006
That jordan would know
to be true or untrue.
431
00:30:43,233 --> 00:30:45,843
So, she's almost like
a proxy for margaret.
432
00:30:46,070 --> 00:30:47,736
But there was
a line of questioning
433
00:30:47,829 --> 00:30:49,996
That I had to ask margaret
434
00:30:50,090 --> 00:30:53,499
And jordan took exception to it,
435
00:30:53,594 --> 00:30:58,355
So I wanted to see how it is
I think she's gonna be
under cross-examination.
436
00:31:00,359 --> 00:31:01,507
How are you doing?
437
00:31:01,527 --> 00:31:04,269
-I'm doing okay.
-Spencer: Okay.
438
00:31:04,363 --> 00:31:08,365
We're going to go over
what it is I think you can do
439
00:31:08,516 --> 00:31:11,702
For your granny.
440
00:31:11,853 --> 00:31:16,373
I am not going to put margaret
on the stand because of the
unreliability of her memory.
441
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:18,116
Okay.
442
00:31:18,210 --> 00:31:22,546
Spencer: So, I need somebody
who would be familiar with
443
00:31:22,773 --> 00:31:27,050
The specific
relationship between
444
00:31:27,277 --> 00:31:30,888
The victim, veronica lynn ott,
and your granny.
445
00:31:32,374 --> 00:31:36,542
So, if somebody testifies,
446
00:31:36,562 --> 00:31:39,137
"I don't even know why
veronica was with margaret."
447
00:31:39,289 --> 00:31:40,288
-Mm-hmm
-spencer: "she hated her.
448
00:31:40,382 --> 00:31:42,290
"they didn't even get along."
449
00:31:42,309 --> 00:31:44,401
What... For whatever reason.
450
00:31:44,628 --> 00:31:45,402
-Yeah.
-Spencer: I would need you
451
00:31:45,629 --> 00:31:47,220
To testify as, like,
452
00:31:47,239 --> 00:31:49,573
-"no, that's not true."
-okay.
453
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,558
You know? "this was
my granny's best friend."
454
00:31:52,578 --> 00:31:55,746
Okay. She was granny's
next door neighbor.
455
00:31:55,897 --> 00:32:00,976
Like, it was that close.
And for years
they lived that close.
456
00:32:01,069 --> 00:32:03,495
She didn't have
a whole lot of friends
457
00:32:03,647 --> 00:32:07,165
Because she rarely
got out of the house.
458
00:32:07,317 --> 00:32:11,428
But from the moment I was born,
I feel like I had always...
459
00:32:11,655 --> 00:32:13,430
They had always been
around each other
460
00:32:13,657 --> 00:32:15,915
And always been
happy and friendly.
461
00:32:16,009 --> 00:32:19,161
Granny would not hurt anything.
She doesn't have it in her.
462
00:32:19,179 --> 00:32:22,164
And they were both
just two sweet ladies.
463
00:32:22,182 --> 00:32:23,832
-I don't know. (laughs)
-spencer: Yeah.
464
00:32:23,850 --> 00:32:27,185
All right. So, tell me
your feelings
on being a witness,
465
00:32:27,279 --> 00:32:30,689
Going on the witness stand, and,
466
00:32:30,783 --> 00:32:33,784
You know, how you feel
about that, just in general.
467
00:32:34,011 --> 00:32:35,860
When you said,
"how do you feel
about being a witness?"
468
00:32:36,013 --> 00:32:37,696
I felt, like, not that bad.
469
00:32:37,790 --> 00:32:39,289
And then you said,
"how do you feel about
getting on the stand?"
470
00:32:39,516 --> 00:32:40,865
And I was like, "ooh."
(chuckles nervously)
471
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:42,292
Um, I'm nervous.
472
00:32:42,444 --> 00:32:48,190
I worry, too, like, that
if I giggle, and I laugh,
473
00:32:48,283 --> 00:32:50,283
In nervous or
uncomfortable situations.
474
00:32:50,377 --> 00:32:52,285
I don't wanna be up here
and them ask me
a serious question,
475
00:32:52,379 --> 00:32:54,362
And I, you know,
laugh at 'em.
476
00:32:54,456 --> 00:32:57,623
And them say,
"oh, this lady's not credible."
477
00:32:57,718 --> 00:32:59,643
But I will do it. I'll do
whatever you need me to do.
478
00:33:00,795 --> 00:33:01,478
-(sighs)
-spencer: Okay.
479
00:33:02,648 --> 00:33:04,982
That is extraordinarily helpful.
480
00:33:12,825 --> 00:33:15,993
The jordan interview
went really well.
481
00:33:16,220 --> 00:33:19,721
When jordan says
something to me, I believe it.
482
00:33:19,814 --> 00:33:24,392
But must most people
don't understand
just how difficult it is,
483
00:33:24,486 --> 00:33:28,672
When they've never taken
the witness stand before.
484
00:33:28,823 --> 00:33:34,327
So, I'm just worried about how
jordan might not be able to
withstand the pressure
485
00:33:34,346 --> 00:33:37,639
Of the cross-examination
by the prosecution.
486
00:33:52,531 --> 00:33:56,758
Today is the pretrial date,
and I need to pretty much
487
00:33:56,777 --> 00:34:01,288
Hammer out what it is
that's important that you
don't want in the trial.
488
00:34:07,954 --> 00:34:11,214
The best case scenario
today would be
489
00:34:11,366 --> 00:34:13,792
That the prosecutor
agrees to not mention
490
00:34:13,944 --> 00:34:16,053
Any of the other drugs,
other than the xanax.
491
00:34:17,297 --> 00:34:19,798
If I can't get those thrown out,
492
00:34:19,892 --> 00:34:23,468
Then I'm going to
have lost the jury,
493
00:34:23,620 --> 00:34:25,020
Just as soon as
the indictment's read.
494
00:34:27,808 --> 00:34:31,217
Margaret: I don't know
what's gonna happen today.
495
00:34:31,311 --> 00:34:36,573
This has been going on
for approximately seven years.
496
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:41,060
I feel very anxious
as I'm going in to pretrial.
497
00:34:41,154 --> 00:34:43,914
Looking so forward for this
to be done and over.
498
00:35:16,097 --> 00:35:17,856
Spencer: I was offered
by the prosecutor
499
00:35:17,950 --> 00:35:21,451
A misdemeanor negligence
charge with no jail time.
500
00:35:23,104 --> 00:35:24,037
(bleeping)
501
00:35:36,860 --> 00:35:39,970
The law enforcement officer
on the case died.
502
00:35:40,714 --> 00:35:41,555
He died of covid.
503
00:35:49,797 --> 00:35:52,798
I mean, they can
try the case without him.
504
00:35:52,893 --> 00:35:57,303
But it still is a pretty big
kick to the prosecutor's case.
505
00:35:57,397 --> 00:36:01,992
And I think that kind of
spurred the prosecutor
to offer you...
506
00:36:03,811 --> 00:36:05,829
...Uh, a misdemeanor
with no jail time.
507
00:36:18,493 --> 00:36:20,427
I'm trying not to
get my hopes up.
508
00:36:24,516 --> 00:36:25,432
Not now.
509
00:36:27,411 --> 00:36:29,686
I haven't heard it
out of the judge's mouth.
510
00:36:33,675 --> 00:36:35,192
Spencer: With the offer
we got today
511
00:36:35,419 --> 00:36:38,862
She would only be facing
one minor misdemeanor
512
00:36:39,089 --> 00:36:42,365
For negligent homicide.
So, no jail time.
513
00:36:52,953 --> 00:36:54,269
The chances of
514
00:36:54,362 --> 00:36:56,771
The victim,
veronica ott's father,
515
00:36:56,864 --> 00:36:59,774
Agreeing to this plea agreement,
516
00:36:59,793 --> 00:37:02,368
I think probably are 50-50.
517
00:37:02,387 --> 00:37:04,704
Margaret... She's still facing
518
00:37:04,798 --> 00:37:06,965
The rest of her adult life
519
00:37:07,117 --> 00:37:09,351
In deplorable conditions
in a cage.
520
00:37:10,787 --> 00:37:11,853
The race is not over.
521
00:37:25,226 --> 00:37:27,410
Margaret: Today is the big day.
522
00:37:29,748 --> 00:37:33,375
I'm very anxious,
very nervous, scared.
523
00:37:45,430 --> 00:37:48,556
It's been seven
to eight years that...
524
00:37:50,769 --> 00:37:54,604
...This has been over my head.
My life has been at a stop.
525
00:37:56,500 --> 00:37:57,274
And...
526
00:37:58,610 --> 00:38:00,110
...It's been very, very hard.
527
00:38:10,622 --> 00:38:14,457
I'm so thankful for you darling,
for being with me
through all this.
528
00:38:15,685 --> 00:38:16,418
You got an eye lash.
529
00:38:20,299 --> 00:38:21,873
Margaret: Make a wish.
530
00:38:22,025 --> 00:38:22,966
It's made. (chuckles softly)
531
00:38:36,798 --> 00:38:38,982
If your granny goes to jail
532
00:38:40,393 --> 00:38:41,818
And then to prison,
533
00:38:43,713 --> 00:38:46,823
I don't want you to worry
like last time.
534
00:38:50,737 --> 00:38:52,454
And try not to cry.
535
00:39:03,750 --> 00:39:07,735
Spencer: Today is a massive day.
536
00:39:07,829 --> 00:39:11,497
Margaret's life has been
absolutely decimated
by this case.
537
00:39:11,591 --> 00:39:13,641
The trauma of losing her friend,
538
00:39:14,519 --> 00:39:16,669
And the anxiety of
539
00:39:16,688 --> 00:39:20,690
Every day, not knowing
if she's gonna spend
the rest of her life in prison.
540
00:39:20,917 --> 00:39:23,342
This has been going on
for seven years.
541
00:39:23,436 --> 00:39:26,421
We're either gonna find out
that this long nightmare
is over,
542
00:39:26,439 --> 00:39:29,366
Or it's really just,
kind of, begun.
543
00:39:36,933 --> 00:39:38,666
(suspenseful music playing)
544
00:39:55,877 --> 00:39:57,685
(soft music playing)
545
00:40:25,165 --> 00:40:26,756
Yes, you've done a lot.
546
00:40:31,504 --> 00:40:32,578
I love you.
547
00:40:32,672 --> 00:40:33,596
-(kisses)
-okay.
548
00:40:37,251 --> 00:40:39,060
Margaret: It's been
a long journey.
549
00:40:41,106 --> 00:40:42,772
It's actually been hell.
550
00:40:44,759 --> 00:40:47,444
-But now, it's over.
-It's over.
551
00:41:05,522 --> 00:41:06,296
So...
552
00:41:08,358 --> 00:41:12,302
You know
everything was dismissed
except for the misdemeanor.
553
00:41:13,454 --> 00:41:16,789
And the misdemeanor is
554
00:41:16,808 --> 00:41:18,641
Something that you have
probation, just for two years.
555
00:41:29,971 --> 00:41:33,548
Spencer: There's really not
words to describe how I feel
right now.
556
00:41:33,566 --> 00:41:35,825
I mean, it's why
I became an attorney,
557
00:41:35,977 --> 00:41:38,161
It's why I do what I do.
558
00:41:38,388 --> 00:41:40,722
And I don't know...
I'm just, uh...
559
00:41:40,740 --> 00:41:41,998
I'm so happy for margaret.
560
00:41:44,836 --> 00:41:48,004
Margaret: I feel that
veronica was with me today.
561
00:41:49,174 --> 00:41:51,566
She's always told me,
562
00:41:51,584 --> 00:41:53,843
"girl, everything's
gonna be okay."
563
00:41:56,422 --> 00:41:57,514
And she was right.
564
00:42:00,334 --> 00:42:02,685
I can finally go on
with my life.