1 00:00:06,906 --> 00:00:07,973 Shocked by the death of a high-profile resident. 2 00:00:07,975 --> 00:00:10,559 High-profile resident. >> he was well-known. Some 3 00:00:10,561 --> 00:00:11,944 >> he was well-known. Some would same famous, some would 4 00:00:11,946 --> 00:00:12,511 would same famous, some would say infamous. 5 00:00:12,513 --> 00:00:16,482 Say infamous. >> he was very controversial in 6 00:00:16,484 --> 00:00:17,349 >> he was very controversial in a lot of respects. He had many 7 00:00:17,351 --> 00:00:17,816 a lot of respects. He had many enemies. 8 00:00:17,818 --> 00:00:21,653 Enemies. >> two alleged accomplices are 9 00:00:21,655 --> 00:00:23,455 >> two alleged accomplices are charged with murder. One walks 10 00:00:23,457 --> 00:00:24,289 charged with murder. One walks free. The other gets life. 11 00:00:24,291 --> 00:00:27,793 Free. The other gets life. >> it was like a drain. It was 12 00:00:27,795 --> 00:00:28,627 >> it was like a drain. It was a nightmare, what it was. 13 00:00:28,629 --> 00:00:30,629 A nightmare, what it was. >> years pass before science 14 00:00:30,631 --> 00:00:31,863 >> years pass before science answers the question of how the 15 00:00:31,865 --> 00:00:32,715 answers the question of how the victim died and who, or what, 16 00:00:32,717 --> 00:00:33,265 victim died and who, or what, was responsible. 17 00:00:33,267 --> 00:00:35,634 Was responsible. >> it's about getting to the 18 00:00:35,636 --> 00:00:37,503 >> it's about getting to the truth. Our focus was one thing 19 00:00:37,505 --> 00:00:38,404 truth. Our focus was one thing -- was this actually a crime? 20 00:00:38,406 --> 00:00:41,473 -- Was this actually a crime? >> for decades, coal was king 21 00:00:41,475 --> 00:00:42,641 >> for decades, coal was king in west virginia, but when coal 22 00:00:42,643 --> 00:00:57,456 in west virginia, but when coal fell on hard times, so did a 23 00:01:01,327 --> 00:01:06,765 lot of communities across the state, among them iaeger, a 24 00:01:06,767 --> 00:01:07,699 state, among them iaeger, a once-thriving town now a shadow 25 00:01:07,701 --> 00:01:08,400 once-thriving town now a shadow of its former self. 26 00:01:08,402 --> 00:01:11,637 Of its former self. >> everybody knows everybody. 27 00:01:11,639 --> 00:01:13,372 >> everybody knows everybody. Back in my days, we had 28 00:01:13,374 --> 00:01:16,708 back in my days, we had everything, you know, there 29 00:01:16,710 --> 00:01:18,010 everything, you know, there that we could have -- stores, 30 00:01:18,012 --> 00:01:19,428 that we could have -- stores, theaters, skating rinks, 31 00:01:19,430 --> 00:01:20,345 theaters, skating rinks, churches. It was just a small 32 00:01:20,347 --> 00:01:21,096 churches. It was just a small town for everybody. Now, it's 33 00:01:21,098 --> 00:01:21,547 town for everybody. Now, it's all gone. 34 00:01:21,549 --> 00:01:26,635 All gone. >> tens of thousands of coal 35 00:01:26,637 --> 00:01:28,470 >> tens of thousands of coal miners worked in the county, 36 00:01:28,472 --> 00:01:30,556 miners worked in the county, and it was a very thriving 37 00:01:30,558 --> 00:01:32,224 and it was a very thriving community, but it's not that 38 00:01:32,226 --> 00:01:32,924 community, but it's not that way any longer. 39 00:01:32,926 --> 00:01:40,365 Way any longer. >> during iaeger's glory days, 40 00:01:40,367 --> 00:01:41,283 >> during iaeger's glory days, and for some time afterward, 41 00:01:41,285 --> 00:01:43,102 and for some time afterward, one person was known to 42 00:01:43,104 --> 00:01:44,536 one person was known to virtually everyone in town. His 43 00:01:44,538 --> 00:01:45,871 virtually everyone in town. His name was ebb whitley. Locals 44 00:01:45,873 --> 00:01:46,655 name was ebb whitley. Locals simply called him "doc". 45 00:01:46,657 --> 00:01:51,543 Simply called him "doc". >> doc whitley was the only 46 00:01:51,545 --> 00:01:52,945 >> doc whitley was the only doctor in town. He owned the 47 00:01:52,947 --> 00:01:55,547 doctor in town. He owned the only pharmacy in town, and he 48 00:01:55,549 --> 00:01:59,334 only pharmacy in town, and he was probably the richest man in 49 00:01:59,336 --> 00:02:02,054 was probably the richest man in the area. He had a beautiful 50 00:02:02,056 --> 00:02:03,222 the area. He had a beautiful home right on the river, right 51 00:02:03,224 --> 00:02:04,756 home right on the river, right on the main drag in iaeger. He 52 00:02:04,758 --> 00:02:07,559 on the main drag in iaeger. He was notorious, well-known. Some 53 00:02:07,561 --> 00:02:08,427 was notorious, well-known. Some would say famous, and he was, 54 00:02:08,429 --> 00:02:09,761 would say famous, and he was, you know, very involved in 55 00:02:09,763 --> 00:02:10,479 you know, very involved in democratic politics. 56 00:02:10,481 --> 00:02:14,333 Democratic politics. >> but a devastating fall when 57 00:02:14,335 --> 00:02:15,767 >> but a devastating fall when he was in his mid-60s put him 58 00:02:15,769 --> 00:02:16,935 he was in his mid-60s put him in a wheelchair, and on a March 59 00:02:16,937 --> 00:02:17,969 in a wheelchair, and on a March morning in 2005, that 60 00:02:17,971 --> 00:02:20,322 morning in 2005, that wheelchair proved to be a 61 00:02:20,324 --> 00:02:21,690 wheelchair proved to be a serious liability when doc's 62 00:02:21,692 --> 00:02:22,524 serious liability when doc's whitley's house went up in 63 00:02:22,526 --> 00:02:22,941 whitley's house went up in flames. 64 00:02:22,943 --> 00:02:30,315 Flames. >> firefighters arrived. They 65 00:02:30,317 --> 00:02:32,584 >> firefighters arrived. They saw a flaming couch in the 66 00:02:32,586 --> 00:02:34,419 saw a flaming couch in the living room. They doused that 67 00:02:34,421 --> 00:02:36,455 living room. They doused that couch with water, and then 68 00:02:36,457 --> 00:02:38,957 couch with water, and then immediately proceeded upstairs 69 00:02:38,959 --> 00:02:39,875 immediately proceeded upstairs to doc whitley's bedroom, where 70 00:02:39,877 --> 00:02:40,659 to doc whitley's bedroom, where they found the doctor dead on 71 00:02:40,661 --> 00:02:41,093 they found the doctor dead on the floor. 72 00:02:41,095 --> 00:02:46,231 The floor. >> doc whitley had burns over 73 00:02:46,233 --> 00:02:47,966 >> doc whitley had burns over 90% of his body. Confined to 74 00:02:47,968 --> 00:02:50,469 90% of his body. Confined to his wheelchair, the 70-year-old 75 00:02:50,471 --> 00:02:51,270 his wheelchair, the 70-year-old couldn't escape the fire. 76 00:02:51,272 --> 00:03:01,747 Couldn't escape the fire. >> I seen this blue tarp laying 77 00:03:01,749 --> 00:03:04,149 >> I seen this blue tarp laying there, and, you know, there was 78 00:03:04,151 --> 00:03:05,851 there, and, you know, there was tv trays outside and people 79 00:03:05,853 --> 00:03:06,919 tv trays outside and people looking. Doc deserved better 80 00:03:06,921 --> 00:03:09,071 looking. Doc deserved better than a blue tarp and being 81 00:03:09,073 --> 00:03:10,656 than a blue tarp and being carried out where everybody 82 00:03:10,658 --> 00:03:11,240 carried out where everybody could see him. 83 00:03:11,242 --> 00:03:16,361 Could see him. >> well, everybody was in 84 00:03:16,363 --> 00:03:18,197 >> well, everybody was in shock. To think his life ended 85 00:03:18,199 --> 00:03:21,333 shock. To think his life ended that way -- it was incredible, 86 00:03:21,335 --> 00:03:22,417 that way -- it was incredible, and I know everybody felt 87 00:03:22,419 --> 00:03:22,885 and I know everybody felt guilty. 88 00:03:22,887 --> 00:03:31,743 Guilty. >> the room doc whitley was 89 00:03:31,745 --> 00:03:33,011 >> the room doc whitley was found in had a huge burn hole 90 00:03:33,013 --> 00:03:33,612 found in had a huge burn hole in the floor. 91 00:03:33,614 --> 00:03:37,849 In the floor. >> both the upstairs and the 92 00:03:37,851 --> 00:03:38,951 >> both the upstairs and the downstairs had undergone 93 00:03:38,953 --> 00:03:39,818 downstairs had undergone significant fire damage. The 94 00:03:39,820 --> 00:03:43,272 significant fire damage. The couch downstairs was already on 95 00:03:43,274 --> 00:03:45,357 couch downstairs was already on fire when the firefighters 96 00:03:45,359 --> 00:03:47,192 fire when the firefighters entered more than 10 minutes 97 00:03:47,194 --> 00:03:48,093 entered more than 10 minutes after the fire was called in. 98 00:03:48,095 --> 00:03:53,565 After the fire was called in. >> state fire marshals 99 00:03:53,567 --> 00:03:57,603 >> state fire marshals suspected the fire had two 100 00:03:57,605 --> 00:03:59,338 suspected the fire had two points of origin, something not 101 00:03:59,340 --> 00:04:03,108 points of origin, something not seen in an accidental fire. 102 00:04:03,110 --> 00:04:04,343 Seen in an accidental fire. They theorized that if the fire 103 00:04:04,345 --> 00:04:06,378 they theorized that if the fire was intentionally set, the 104 00:04:06,380 --> 00:04:09,014 was intentionally set, the arsonist set the fire to the 105 00:04:09,016 --> 00:04:10,449 arsonist set the fire to the upstairs bedroom and then 106 00:04:10,451 --> 00:04:11,350 upstairs bedroom and then torched the downstairs couch on 107 00:04:11,352 --> 00:04:12,584 torched the downstairs couch on the way out to make sure the 108 00:04:12,586 --> 00:04:13,218 the way out to make sure the job was done. 109 00:04:13,220 --> 00:04:18,624 Job was done. >> dr. Whitley -- he had no way 110 00:04:18,626 --> 00:04:20,559 >> dr. Whitley -- he had no way to escape, and he couldn't run 111 00:04:20,561 --> 00:04:21,460 to escape, and he couldn't run out of the house. He couldn't 112 00:04:21,462 --> 00:04:22,127 out of the house. He couldn't walk. He had no way out. 113 00:04:22,129 --> 00:04:25,330 Walk. He had no way out. >> the possibility of the fire 114 00:04:25,332 --> 00:04:27,232 >> the possibility of the fire being intentionally set had 115 00:04:27,234 --> 00:04:31,153 being intentionally set had investigators searching for 116 00:04:31,155 --> 00:04:34,906 investigators searching for accelerants. As part of 117 00:04:34,908 --> 00:04:35,774 accelerants. As part of standard operating procedure, 118 00:04:35,776 --> 00:04:37,909 standard operating procedure, samples from the fire were 119 00:04:37,911 --> 00:04:38,794 samples from the fire were stored in sealed paint cans. 120 00:04:38,796 --> 00:04:44,449 Stored in sealed paint cans. >> most crime labs use what's 121 00:04:44,451 --> 00:04:50,222 >> most crime labs use what's called headspace extraction. 122 00:04:50,224 --> 00:04:52,324 Called headspace extraction. That's a method by which you 123 00:04:52,326 --> 00:04:54,993 that's a method by which you take a small activated carbon 124 00:04:54,995 --> 00:04:56,128 take a small activated carbon strip and you put that in the 125 00:04:56,130 --> 00:04:58,263 strip and you put that in the paint can with the evidence and 126 00:04:58,265 --> 00:04:59,598 paint can with the evidence and heat it up for about 16 hours 127 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:01,767 heat it up for about 16 hours to about 80 degrees, and the 128 00:05:01,769 --> 00:05:02,734 to about 80 degrees, and the volatiles that are entrapped 129 00:05:02,736 --> 00:05:04,903 volatiles that are entrapped within the fire debris will 130 00:05:04,905 --> 00:05:07,839 within the fire debris will evaporate from the debris, 131 00:05:07,841 --> 00:05:08,774 evaporate from the debris, enter the headspace, which is 132 00:05:08,776 --> 00:05:09,474 enter the headspace, which is the gas above the sample. 133 00:05:09,476 --> 00:05:12,844 The gas above the sample. >> they gathered samples at the 134 00:05:12,846 --> 00:05:15,380 >> they gathered samples at the scene, and the forensic chemist 135 00:05:15,382 --> 00:05:18,984 scene, and the forensic chemist at the state police lab said 136 00:05:18,986 --> 00:05:19,851 at the state police lab said that one of the samples from 137 00:05:19,853 --> 00:05:20,686 that one of the samples from the bedroom floor near the fire 138 00:05:20,688 --> 00:05:23,588 the bedroom floor near the fire contained toluene, an ignitable, 139 00:05:23,590 --> 00:05:26,174 contained toluene, an ignitable, flammable liquid that's found 140 00:05:26,176 --> 00:05:28,460 flammable liquid that's found in charcoal lighter and other 141 00:05:28,462 --> 00:05:28,894 in charcoal lighter and other products. 142 00:05:28,896 --> 00:05:33,131 Products. 143 00:05:48,147 --> 00:05:49,614 >> in a town as small as iaeger, west virginia, locals rarely 144 00:05:49,616 --> 00:05:50,315 west virginia, locals rarely tired of gossip about doc 145 00:05:50,317 --> 00:05:50,882 tired of gossip about doc whitley and kathy 146 00:05:50,884 --> 00:05:51,650 whitley and kathy lively-hamilton, his long-time 147 00:05:51,652 --> 00:05:52,334 lively-hamilton, his long-time nurse and office manager. 148 00:05:52,336 --> 00:05:53,802 Nurse and office manager. >> kathy lively and doc whitley 149 00:05:53,804 --> 00:05:54,669 >> kathy lively and doc whitley fought all the time, but they 150 00:05:54,671 --> 00:05:55,470 fought all the time, but they also, I think, loved each other 151 00:05:55,472 --> 00:05:55,987 also, I think, loved each other quite deeply. 152 00:05:55,989 --> 00:06:00,025 Quite deeply. >> there was no question of any 153 00:06:00,027 --> 00:06:01,126 >> there was no question of any romance between doc and his 154 00:06:01,128 --> 00:06:02,027 romance between doc and his nurse, but that didn't stop the 155 00:06:02,029 --> 00:06:03,729 nurse, but that didn't stop the sparks from flying often and in 156 00:06:03,731 --> 00:06:04,229 sparks from flying often and in public. 157 00:06:04,231 --> 00:06:06,732 Public. >> we worked together for 25 158 00:06:06,734 --> 00:06:07,966 >> we worked together for 25 years, and we both wanted to 159 00:06:07,968 --> 00:06:09,234 years, and we both wanted to feel like we were right, so we 160 00:06:09,236 --> 00:06:10,819 feel like we were right, so we had to argue out who was right 161 00:06:10,821 --> 00:06:11,853 had to argue out who was right and who was wrong, and then 162 00:06:11,855 --> 00:06:14,305 and who was wrong, and then we'd forget what we was arguing 163 00:06:14,307 --> 00:06:15,190 we'd forget what we was arguing about and then just go on about 164 00:06:15,192 --> 00:06:15,690 about and then just go on about our business. 165 00:06:15,692 --> 00:06:19,644 Our business. >> they were extremely close. 166 00:06:19,646 --> 00:06:20,679 >> they were extremely close. Not romantically involved. They 167 00:06:20,681 --> 00:06:21,430 not romantically involved. They were just close friends. 168 00:06:21,432 --> 00:06:24,516 Were just close friends. >> on the night before doc 169 00:06:24,518 --> 00:06:26,735 >> on the night before doc whitley died, he and kathy had 170 00:06:26,737 --> 00:06:27,436 whitley died, he and kathy had yet another fight. 171 00:06:27,438 --> 00:06:30,688 Yet another fight. >> kathy lively said during 172 00:06:30,690 --> 00:06:31,523 >> kathy lively said during that fight something to the 173 00:06:31,525 --> 00:06:32,290 that fight something to the effect of, "oh, I'll kill you, 174 00:06:32,292 --> 00:06:32,791 effect of, "oh, I'll kill you, you s.O.B." 175 00:06:32,793 --> 00:06:38,346 you s.O.B." >> that didn't mean nothing, 176 00:06:38,348 --> 00:06:40,449 >> that didn't mean nothing, you know? I've been killing doc 177 00:06:40,451 --> 00:06:42,134 you know? I've been killing doc for years, you know? Doc would 178 00:06:42,136 --> 00:06:46,121 for years, you know? Doc would fire me. I'd quit. We never 179 00:06:46,123 --> 00:06:46,738 fire me. I'd quit. We never missed a day. 180 00:06:46,740 --> 00:06:48,473 Missed a day. >> from what we understand, 181 00:06:48,475 --> 00:06:49,274 >> from what we understand, that was actually a fairly 182 00:06:49,276 --> 00:06:50,041 that was actually a fairly typical thing for them to say 183 00:06:50,043 --> 00:06:50,542 typical thing for them to say to each other. 184 00:06:50,544 --> 00:06:52,377 To each other. >> but what definitely was not 185 00:06:52,379 --> 00:06:53,278 >> but what definitely was not typical was that doc would end 186 00:06:53,280 --> 00:06:54,379 typical was that doc would end up dead the next day. Local 187 00:06:54,381 --> 00:06:55,347 up dead the next day. Local investigators suspected the 188 00:06:55,349 --> 00:06:57,015 investigators suspected the worst, especially after hearing 189 00:06:57,017 --> 00:06:58,083 worst, especially after hearing a strange story about kathy's 190 00:06:58,085 --> 00:07:01,186 a strange story about kathy's 27-year-old son, jason. Right 191 00:07:01,188 --> 00:07:04,022 27-year-old son, jason. Right after news that doc whitley's 192 00:07:04,024 --> 00:07:05,390 after news that doc whitley's house had burned down with him 193 00:07:05,392 --> 00:07:06,425 house had burned down with him in it, jason drove to doc's 194 00:07:06,427 --> 00:07:07,826 in it, jason drove to doc's second house, just a few miles 195 00:07:07,828 --> 00:07:08,727 second house, just a few miles away, to tell doc's wife what 196 00:07:08,729 --> 00:07:09,227 away, to tell doc's wife what had happened. 197 00:07:09,229 --> 00:07:13,949 Had happened. >> jason lively went up to the 198 00:07:13,951 --> 00:07:14,899 >> jason lively went up to the home on coon branch mountain to 199 00:07:14,901 --> 00:07:16,668 home on coon branch mountain to tell her dr. Whitley had died 200 00:07:16,670 --> 00:07:18,904 tell her dr. Whitley had died in a fire. We believe he stole 201 00:07:18,906 --> 00:07:20,972 in a fire. We believe he stole dr. Whitley's laptop computer 202 00:07:20,974 --> 00:07:23,158 dr. Whitley's laptop computer at that time and took it out to 203 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,144 at that time and took it out to sell it, and he finally did 204 00:07:26,146 --> 00:07:26,645 sell it, and he finally did sell it. 205 00:07:26,647 --> 00:07:29,981 Sell it. >> investigators thought jason 206 00:07:29,983 --> 00:07:31,550 >> investigators thought jason might have stolen the laptop 207 00:07:31,552 --> 00:07:32,951 might have stolen the laptop because doc's wife would never 208 00:07:32,953 --> 00:07:34,402 because doc's wife would never have known it was gone. And the 209 00:07:34,404 --> 00:07:35,987 have known it was gone. And the fight jason's mother had with 210 00:07:35,989 --> 00:07:37,055 fight jason's mother had with doc the night before he died 211 00:07:37,057 --> 00:07:38,723 doc the night before he died presented another possible 212 00:07:38,725 --> 00:07:41,159 presented another possible motive. Investigators thought 213 00:07:41,161 --> 00:07:43,595 motive. Investigators thought jason might be using doc's 214 00:07:43,597 --> 00:07:45,864 jason might be using doc's pharmacy to get prescription 215 00:07:45,866 --> 00:07:47,365 pharmacy to get prescription drugs illegally. That would 216 00:07:47,367 --> 00:07:48,266 drugs illegally. That would stop if doc went through with 217 00:07:48,268 --> 00:07:49,117 stop if doc went through with his threat to fire jason's 218 00:07:49,119 --> 00:07:49,668 his threat to fire jason's mother. 219 00:07:49,670 --> 00:07:56,308 Mother. >> the investigators thought, 220 00:07:56,310 --> 00:07:57,542 >> the investigators thought, allegedly, that doc whitley had 221 00:07:57,544 --> 00:07:59,144 allegedly, that doc whitley had taken away kathy lively's 222 00:07:59,146 --> 00:08:00,044 taken away kathy lively's access to his prescription pad, 223 00:08:00,046 --> 00:08:00,812 access to his prescription pad, which meant that she could no 224 00:08:00,814 --> 00:08:01,546 which meant that she could no longer use it and that jason 225 00:08:01,548 --> 00:08:02,247 longer use it and that jason could no longer use it to 226 00:08:02,249 --> 00:08:02,948 could no longer use it to obtain illegal narcotics. 227 00:08:02,950 --> 00:08:07,486 Obtain illegal narcotics. >> of course, it couldn't be 228 00:08:07,488 --> 00:08:09,888 >> of course, it couldn't be said for certain that jason was 229 00:08:09,890 --> 00:08:12,340 said for certain that jason was using his mother's prescription 230 00:08:12,342 --> 00:08:14,893 using his mother's prescription pad, but now the investigation 231 00:08:14,895 --> 00:08:16,094 pad, but now the investigation turned to another man, a friend 232 00:08:16,096 --> 00:08:16,978 turned to another man, a friend of jason's named brian salyers. 233 00:08:16,980 --> 00:08:23,802 Of jason's named brian salyers. >> brian salyers come really 234 00:08:23,804 --> 00:08:26,304 >> brian salyers come really straight out of central casting 235 00:08:26,306 --> 00:08:28,640 straight out of central casting for kind of the local criminal 236 00:08:28,642 --> 00:08:29,441 for kind of the local criminal element of this area. 237 00:08:29,443 --> 00:08:32,711 Element of this area. >> brian salyers is another 238 00:08:32,713 --> 00:08:34,813 >> brian salyers is another local guy. He told them that he 239 00:08:34,815 --> 00:08:36,615 local guy. He told them that he had picked up tommy owens and 240 00:08:36,617 --> 00:08:38,817 had picked up tommy owens and jason lively and dropped them 241 00:08:38,819 --> 00:08:40,218 jason lively and dropped them off outside of the whitley 242 00:08:40,220 --> 00:08:41,219 off outside of the whitley house sometime on the morning 243 00:08:41,221 --> 00:08:41,786 house sometime on the morning around 8:00. 244 00:08:41,788 --> 00:08:44,489 Around 8:00. >> this put jason lively and 245 00:08:44,491 --> 00:08:46,591 >> this put jason lively and tommy owens at the scene of the 246 00:08:46,593 --> 00:08:47,759 tommy owens at the scene of the fire just before it started, 247 00:08:47,761 --> 00:08:50,061 fire just before it started, and with that, both men were 248 00:08:50,063 --> 00:08:51,096 and with that, both men were charged with doc whitley's 249 00:08:51,098 --> 00:08:52,297 charged with doc whitley's murder. Prosecutors were 250 00:08:52,299 --> 00:08:54,466 murder. Prosecutors were convinced they had a solid case 251 00:08:54,468 --> 00:08:55,233 convinced they had a solid case for first-degree murder. 252 00:08:55,235 --> 00:09:01,289 For first-degree murder. >> when you've got state fire 253 00:09:01,291 --> 00:09:02,257 >> when you've got state fire marshals saying, "this was an 254 00:09:02,259 --> 00:09:04,409 marshals saying, "this was an incendiary fire, " and you've 255 00:09:04,411 --> 00:09:07,128 incendiary fire, " and you've got a witness saying, "jason 256 00:09:07,130 --> 00:09:08,079 got a witness saying, "jason lively was there that morning" 257 00:09:08,081 --> 00:09:09,014 lively was there that morning" and his mother having had that 258 00:09:09,016 --> 00:09:09,948 and his mother having had that fight and jason having taken 259 00:09:09,950 --> 00:09:11,216 fight and jason having taken that computer, none of that 260 00:09:11,218 --> 00:09:12,417 that computer, none of that added up to a recipe for 261 00:09:12,419 --> 00:09:13,285 added up to a recipe for success for jason at trial. 262 00:09:13,287 --> 00:09:18,056 Success for jason at trial. >> in an unusual move, jason 263 00:09:18,058 --> 00:09:19,257 >> in an unusual move, jason lively and tommy owens were 264 00:09:19,259 --> 00:09:20,392 lively and tommy owens were tried separately. Jason lively 265 00:09:20,394 --> 00:09:23,161 tried separately. Jason lively went to trial in November of 266 00:09:23,163 --> 00:09:24,629 went to trial in November of 2006. It didn't go smoothly for 267 00:09:24,631 --> 00:09:26,648 2006. It didn't go smoothly for the prosecution. Their key 268 00:09:26,650 --> 00:09:27,765 the prosecution. Their key witness, brian salyers, changed 269 00:09:27,767 --> 00:09:29,117 witness, brian salyers, changed his story. He said he never 270 00:09:29,119 --> 00:09:30,368 his story. He said he never dropped anyone off at doc 271 00:09:30,370 --> 00:09:31,002 dropped anyone off at doc whitley's house. 272 00:09:31,004 --> 00:09:35,740 Whitley's house. >> brian, who was put on the 273 00:09:35,742 --> 00:09:36,741 >> brian, who was put on the stand, and on the stand, 274 00:09:36,743 --> 00:09:38,109 stand, and on the stand, recanted his testimony and said, 275 00:09:38,111 --> 00:09:40,244 recanted his testimony and said, "it's not true. What I told the 276 00:09:40,246 --> 00:09:41,012 "it's not true. What I told the police isn't true, and I only 277 00:09:41,014 --> 00:09:41,746 police isn't true, and I only told them that because they 278 00:09:41,748 --> 00:09:42,364 told them that because they were threatening me." 279 00:09:42,366 --> 00:09:45,483 were threatening me." >> despite this setback, the 280 00:09:45,485 --> 00:09:47,052 >> despite this setback, the state pushed forward. The jury 281 00:09:47,054 --> 00:09:50,121 state pushed forward. The jury was told there were two points 282 00:09:50,123 --> 00:09:51,206 was told there were two points of origin for the fire, that 283 00:09:51,208 --> 00:09:52,524 of origin for the fire, that the gold standard of accelerant 284 00:09:52,526 --> 00:09:54,659 the gold standard of accelerant analysis -- gas chromatography 285 00:09:54,661 --> 00:09:55,894 analysis -- gas chromatography mass spectrometry -- found 286 00:09:55,896 --> 00:09:56,995 mass spectrometry -- found evidence of an accelerant at 287 00:09:56,997 --> 00:09:58,530 evidence of an accelerant at the scene, and that doc whitley 288 00:09:58,532 --> 00:09:59,364 the scene, and that doc whitley might have seen this coming. 289 00:09:59,366 --> 00:10:02,067 Might have seen this coming. >> they said dr. Whitley 290 00:10:02,069 --> 00:10:03,368 >> they said dr. Whitley expressed a fear of jason 291 00:10:03,370 --> 00:10:03,868 expressed a fear of jason lively. 292 00:10:03,870 --> 00:10:07,272 Lively. >> jason lively was found 293 00:10:07,274 --> 00:10:09,174 >> jason lively was found guilty of doc whitley's murder 294 00:10:09,176 --> 00:10:10,875 guilty of doc whitley's murder and got life in prison, with 295 00:10:10,877 --> 00:10:12,577 and got life in prison, with the possibility for parole in 296 00:10:12,579 --> 00:10:16,247 the possibility for parole in 15 years. Six months later, 297 00:10:16,249 --> 00:10:17,215 15 years. Six months later, jason's alleged accomplice, 298 00:10:17,217 --> 00:10:20,869 jason's alleged accomplice, tommy owens, also faced a jury, 299 00:10:20,871 --> 00:10:21,786 tommy owens, also faced a jury, and in a shock verdict, he was 300 00:10:21,788 --> 00:10:22,854 and in a shock verdict, he was acquitted, which had a lot of 301 00:10:22,856 --> 00:10:24,489 acquitted, which had a lot of people wondering how only one 302 00:10:24,491 --> 00:10:28,093 people wondering how only one person could be guilty if 303 00:10:28,095 --> 00:10:31,463 person could be guilty if prosecutors were convinced two 304 00:10:31,465 --> 00:10:32,297 prosecutors were convinced two people set the fatal fire. 305 00:10:32,299 --> 00:10:35,333 People set the fatal fire. 306 00:10:52,018 --> 00:10:55,020 >> sid bell prided himself on being an honest prosecutor, so 307 00:10:55,022 --> 00:10:56,871 being an honest prosecutor, so when jason lively got a life 308 00:10:56,873 --> 00:10:58,206 when jason lively got a life sentence for the murder of dr. 309 00:10:58,208 --> 00:11:00,858 Sentence for the murder of dr. Whitley, and tommy owens, 310 00:11:00,860 --> 00:11:03,912 whitley, and tommy owens, jason's alleged accomplice, 311 00:11:03,914 --> 00:11:05,463 jason's alleged accomplice, walked free, he worried about a 312 00:11:05,465 --> 00:11:06,881 walked free, he worried about a possible miscarriage of 313 00:11:06,883 --> 00:11:07,399 possible miscarriage of justice. 314 00:11:07,401 --> 00:11:09,801 Justice. >> as a prosecutor, I wanted to 315 00:11:09,803 --> 00:11:10,935 >> as a prosecutor, I wanted to know more about what they refer 316 00:11:10,937 --> 00:11:12,303 know more about what they refer to as the science of fire 317 00:11:12,305 --> 00:11:13,438 to as the science of fire investigations. I began to 318 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:14,973 investigations. I began to question, "do we really know 319 00:11:14,975 --> 00:11:15,840 question, "do we really know what we're talking about? " 320 00:11:15,842 --> 00:11:18,176 what we're talking about? " >> sid bell's doubts weren't 321 00:11:18,178 --> 00:11:19,594 >> sid bell's doubts weren't eased after learning of an 322 00:11:19,596 --> 00:11:21,346 eased after learning of an infamous arson conviction that 323 00:11:21,348 --> 00:11:22,097 infamous arson conviction that culminated in 2004. 324 00:11:22,099 --> 00:11:23,915 Culminated in 2004. >> I was concerned about that 325 00:11:23,917 --> 00:11:24,783 >> I was concerned about that todd willingham case in texas. 326 00:11:24,785 --> 00:11:26,651 Todd willingham case in texas. >> cameron todd willingham was 327 00:11:26,653 --> 00:11:28,219 >> cameron todd willingham was executed in 2004 for killing 328 00:11:28,221 --> 00:11:29,554 executed in 2004 for killing his three kids in a fire he was 329 00:11:29,556 --> 00:11:30,705 his three kids in a fire he was convicted of setting, but now, 330 00:11:30,707 --> 00:11:31,923 convicted of setting, but now, nine forensic scientists 331 00:11:31,925 --> 00:11:32,990 nine forensic scientists believe the evidence shows it 332 00:11:32,992 --> 00:11:33,591 believe the evidence shows it was not arson. 333 00:11:33,593 --> 00:11:34,793 Was not arson. >> sid bell heard about cameron 334 00:11:34,795 --> 00:11:36,494 >> sid bell heard about cameron todd willingham, who was 335 00:11:36,496 --> 00:11:38,129 todd willingham, who was executed based on what was 336 00:11:38,131 --> 00:11:39,781 executed based on what was later determined to have been 337 00:11:39,783 --> 00:11:41,616 later determined to have been false scientific assumptions 338 00:11:41,618 --> 00:11:42,450 false scientific assumptions about the way fires burn. 339 00:11:42,452 --> 00:11:45,336 About the way fires burn. >> was it possible jason lively 340 00:11:45,338 --> 00:11:47,238 >> was it possible jason lively was serving life because of 341 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,607 was serving life because of faulty forensic science? Sid 342 00:11:49,609 --> 00:11:51,409 faulty forensic science? Sid bell sought out craig beyler, a 343 00:11:51,411 --> 00:11:53,011 bell sought out craig beyler, a scientist who determined that 344 00:11:53,013 --> 00:11:54,345 scientist who determined that todd willingham was executed 345 00:11:54,347 --> 00:11:55,847 todd willingham was executed for a deadly arson that many 346 00:11:55,849 --> 00:11:57,382 for a deadly arson that many analysts believe never 347 00:11:57,384 --> 00:11:57,949 analysts believe never happened. 348 00:11:57,951 --> 00:12:02,153 Happened. >> I want to know the truth. I 349 00:12:02,155 --> 00:12:04,989 >> I want to know the truth. I want to know what really had 350 00:12:04,991 --> 00:12:05,957 want to know what really had happened. I wanted to be 351 00:12:05,959 --> 00:12:07,092 happened. I wanted to be convinced about the cause of 352 00:12:07,094 --> 00:12:07,659 convinced about the cause of the fire. 353 00:12:07,661 --> 00:12:09,928 The fire. >> beyler re-examined the 354 00:12:09,930 --> 00:12:10,862 >> beyler re-examined the evidence used to convict jason 355 00:12:10,864 --> 00:12:11,396 evidence used to convict jason lively. 356 00:12:11,398 --> 00:12:14,115 Lively. >> dr. Beyler could have said, 357 00:12:14,117 --> 00:12:16,501 >> dr. Beyler could have said, "I agree. It was a set fire. It 358 00:12:16,503 --> 00:12:17,419 "I agree. It was a set fire. It was arson. I agree with it." of 359 00:12:17,421 --> 00:12:18,336 was arson. I agree with it." of course, he didn't say that. He 360 00:12:18,338 --> 00:12:19,670 course, he didn't say that. He said that he believed it was an 361 00:12:19,672 --> 00:12:22,040 said that he believed it was an electrical fire, an accidental 362 00:12:22,042 --> 00:12:24,509 electrical fire, an accidental electrical fire. This is 363 00:12:24,511 --> 00:12:25,276 electrical fire. This is exculpatory evidence. 364 00:12:25,278 --> 00:12:28,179 Exculpatory evidence. >> but this wasn't nearly 365 00:12:28,181 --> 00:12:29,147 >> but this wasn't nearly enough to get jason lively out 366 00:12:29,149 --> 00:12:30,582 enough to get jason lively out of jail, even though the man 367 00:12:30,584 --> 00:12:32,717 of jail, even though the man who prosecutors said was his 368 00:12:32,719 --> 00:12:34,319 who prosecutors said was his conspirator was walking free, 369 00:12:34,321 --> 00:12:35,587 conspirator was walking free, something jason saw as a 370 00:12:35,589 --> 00:12:37,305 something jason saw as a potential ticket for his 371 00:12:37,307 --> 00:12:37,839 potential ticket for his freedom. 372 00:12:37,841 --> 00:12:39,758 Freedom. >> him being found not guilty 373 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:41,993 >> him being found not guilty was better for me all the way 374 00:12:41,995 --> 00:12:43,762 was better for me all the way around, and they tried every 375 00:12:43,764 --> 00:12:45,396 around, and they tried every way in the world to get tommy 376 00:12:45,398 --> 00:12:46,364 way in the world to get tommy to say that I was there, and he 377 00:12:46,366 --> 00:12:47,699 to say that I was there, and he turned it down absolutely and 378 00:12:47,701 --> 00:12:48,767 turned it down absolutely and took the stand and went to 379 00:12:48,769 --> 00:12:49,801 took the stand and went to trial, put his life on the 380 00:12:49,803 --> 00:12:50,301 trial, put his life on the line. 381 00:12:50,303 --> 00:12:54,305 Line. >> beyler believed jason was 382 00:12:54,307 --> 00:12:55,874 >> beyler believed jason was innocent, and he pointed to the 383 00:12:55,876 --> 00:12:57,542 innocent, and he pointed to the hole burned in the floor of doc 384 00:12:57,544 --> 00:12:59,110 hole burned in the floor of doc whitley's bedroom. Photos 385 00:12:59,112 --> 00:13:00,278 whitley's bedroom. Photos showed the very top of the 386 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:01,713 showed the very top of the floor was burned the least. The 387 00:13:01,715 --> 00:13:03,164 floor was burned the least. The sub-flooring and the joists 388 00:13:03,166 --> 00:13:07,652 sub-flooring and the joists below that hardwood surface 389 00:13:07,654 --> 00:13:10,421 below that hardwood surface sustained most of the damage. 390 00:13:10,423 --> 00:13:13,992 Sustained most of the damage. If an accelerant had been 391 00:13:13,994 --> 00:13:18,346 if an accelerant had been poured on top of the floor, as 392 00:13:18,348 --> 00:13:19,731 poured on top of the floor, as prosecutors claim, the major 393 00:13:19,733 --> 00:13:21,316 prosecutors claim, the major damage should have been on the 394 00:13:21,318 --> 00:13:22,534 damage should have been on the surface of the floor, not below 395 00:13:22,536 --> 00:13:23,451 surface of the floor, not below in the sub-floor and in the 396 00:13:23,453 --> 00:13:24,085 in the sub-floor and in the support joists. 397 00:13:24,087 --> 00:13:25,470 Support joists. >> fires burn up, and so, when 398 00:13:25,472 --> 00:13:26,571 >> fires burn up, and so, when you pour ignitable liquid onto 399 00:13:26,573 --> 00:13:28,139 you pour ignitable liquid onto a hardwood floor, you're not 400 00:13:28,141 --> 00:13:29,340 a hardwood floor, you're not gonna get a hole in the floor 401 00:13:29,342 --> 00:13:30,241 gonna get a hole in the floor because the fire burns upwards. 402 00:13:30,243 --> 00:13:31,209 Because the fire burns upwards. It's not the liquid that burns. 403 00:13:31,211 --> 00:13:32,727 It's not the liquid that burns. It's the vapors from the liquid 404 00:13:32,729 --> 00:13:33,478 it's the vapors from the liquid evaporating that burn. 405 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:35,947 Evaporating that burn. >> this video, unrelated to 406 00:13:35,949 --> 00:13:37,649 >> this video, unrelated to this case, helps explain. The 407 00:13:37,651 --> 00:13:38,716 this case, helps explain. The woman pours gas into the car, 408 00:13:38,718 --> 00:13:40,318 woman pours gas into the car, but as she waits to light the 409 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:41,553 but as she waits to light the fire, the fumes from the gas 410 00:13:41,555 --> 00:13:46,124 fire, the fumes from the gas gather inside the vehicle, and 411 00:13:46,126 --> 00:13:48,726 gather inside the vehicle, and that's what burns, or in this 412 00:13:48,728 --> 00:13:51,495 that's what burns, or in this case, explodes, when she sets 413 00:13:51,497 --> 00:13:52,046 case, explodes, when she sets the fire. 414 00:13:52,048 --> 00:13:56,334 The fire. >> and so, you can see from 415 00:13:56,336 --> 00:13:57,135 >> and so, you can see from tests that when you pour a 416 00:13:57,137 --> 00:13:58,403 tests that when you pour a liquid accelerant on the ground, 417 00:13:58,405 --> 00:13:59,504 liquid accelerant on the ground, it doesn't actually burn a hole 418 00:13:59,506 --> 00:14:00,672 it doesn't actually burn a hole into the floor. It's actually 419 00:14:00,674 --> 00:14:01,673 into the floor. It's actually really difficult to get that to 420 00:14:01,675 --> 00:14:02,073 really difficult to get that to happen. 421 00:14:02,075 --> 00:14:03,808 Happen. >> so, if the fire that killed 422 00:14:03,810 --> 00:14:04,843 >> so, if the fire that killed doc whitley wasn't arson, where 423 00:14:04,845 --> 00:14:07,262 doc whitley wasn't arson, where and how did it start? The 424 00:14:07,264 --> 00:14:09,347 and how did it start? The building was old, and photos 425 00:14:09,349 --> 00:14:11,749 building was old, and photos showed an electrical wire 426 00:14:11,751 --> 00:14:13,017 showed an electrical wire running directly through the 427 00:14:13,019 --> 00:14:17,956 running directly through the burned-away hole in the floor. 428 00:14:17,958 --> 00:14:20,091 Burned-away hole in the floor. The new analysis concluded the 429 00:14:20,093 --> 00:14:21,476 the new analysis concluded the fire started from that faulty 430 00:14:21,478 --> 00:14:22,861 fire started from that faulty wire below the surface of the 431 00:14:22,863 --> 00:14:23,961 wire below the surface of the floor and burned upwards into 432 00:14:23,963 --> 00:14:25,897 floor and burned upwards into the bedroom. This created the 433 00:14:25,899 --> 00:14:27,665 the bedroom. This created the hole in the floor. Flaming 434 00:14:27,667 --> 00:14:29,868 hole in the floor. Flaming embers fell through that hole 435 00:14:29,870 --> 00:14:31,803 embers fell through that hole and ignited the couch on the 436 00:14:31,805 --> 00:14:34,105 and ignited the couch on the ground floor, creating what 437 00:14:34,107 --> 00:14:35,506 ground floor, creating what appeared to be a second point 438 00:14:35,508 --> 00:14:37,358 appeared to be a second point of origin. And in this case, 439 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:38,943 of origin. And in this case, dr. Beyler ruled out every 440 00:14:38,945 --> 00:14:41,012 dr. Beyler ruled out every other possible cause of the 441 00:14:41,014 --> 00:14:42,180 other possible cause of the fire other than an electrical 442 00:14:42,182 --> 00:14:43,047 fire other than an electrical caused fire in the joist bay. 443 00:14:43,049 --> 00:14:46,701 Caused fire in the joist bay. >> this directly contradicted 444 00:14:46,703 --> 00:14:48,119 >> this directly contradicted the prosecution's theory of the 445 00:14:48,121 --> 00:14:51,222 the prosecution's theory of the case, but for now, the state 446 00:14:51,224 --> 00:14:52,657 case, but for now, the state wouldn't listen to any pleas 447 00:14:52,659 --> 00:14:54,409 wouldn't listen to any pleas about jason lively being not 448 00:14:54,411 --> 00:14:55,944 about jason lively being not guilty, and as he endured the 449 00:14:55,946 --> 00:14:57,579 guilty, and as he endured the 11th year of his sentence, life 450 00:14:57,581 --> 00:15:02,901 11th year of his sentence, life behind bars was getting worse 451 00:15:02,903 --> 00:15:03,434 behind bars was getting worse by the da. 452 00:15:03,436 --> 00:15:05,603 By the da. >> the whole time I'm there, 453 00:15:05,605 --> 00:15:06,771 >> the whole time I'm there, they're all sending me money 454 00:15:06,773 --> 00:15:07,972 they're all sending me money and trying to take care of me, 455 00:15:07,974 --> 00:15:09,040 and trying to take care of me, and, you know, and I'm just a 456 00:15:09,042 --> 00:15:10,174 and, you know, and I'm just a burden. I mean, like, I felt at 457 00:15:10,176 --> 00:15:11,142 burden. I mean, like, I felt at times that I was just no good 458 00:15:11,144 --> 00:15:12,110 times that I was just no good for nothing. It would just be 459 00:15:12,112 --> 00:15:12,844 for nothing. It would just be better if I was dead. 460 00:15:12,846 --> 00:15:14,012 Better if I was dead. >> in 2017, the west virginia 461 00:15:14,014 --> 00:15:15,480 >> in 2017, the west virginia innocence project took up jason 462 00:15:15,482 --> 00:15:17,482 innocence project took up jason lively's case, believing he was 463 00:15:17,484 --> 00:15:17,849 lively's case, believing he was 464 00:15:31,196 --> 00:15:33,331 >> in 2017, the west virginia innocence project took up jason 465 00:15:33,333 --> 00:15:34,499 innocence project took up jason lively's case, believing he was 466 00:15:34,501 --> 00:15:36,501 lively's case, believing he was convicted on possibly faulty 467 00:15:36,503 --> 00:15:37,285 convicted on possibly faulty forensic arson analysis. 468 00:15:37,287 --> 00:15:39,621 Forensic arson analysis. >> we had a factually innocent 469 00:15:39,623 --> 00:15:41,289 >> we had a factually innocent client, if dr. Beyler was 470 00:15:41,291 --> 00:15:43,474 client, if dr. Beyler was correct, but the law's just not 471 00:15:43,476 --> 00:15:44,241 correct, but the law's just not equipped to handle that. 472 00:15:44,243 --> 00:15:45,710 Equipped to handle that. >> jason's new team had a 473 00:15:45,712 --> 00:15:46,711 >> jason's new team had a surprise ally. Sid bell, the 474 00:15:46,713 --> 00:15:47,779 surprise ally. Sid bell, the prosecutor who put jason behind 475 00:15:47,781 --> 00:15:49,080 prosecutor who put jason behind bars, helped spearhead the 476 00:15:49,082 --> 00:15:49,747 bars, helped spearhead the reinvestigation. 477 00:15:49,749 --> 00:15:51,582 Reinvestigation. >> one of my assistants said, 478 00:15:51,584 --> 00:15:55,019 >> one of my assistants said, "why did you do this? Why would 479 00:15:55,021 --> 00:15:56,688 "why did you do this? Why would you hire an expert that ended 480 00:15:56,690 --> 00:15:58,923 you hire an expert that ended up helping the defense? " I 481 00:15:58,925 --> 00:16:00,775 up helping the defense? " I said, "well, I wanted to know 482 00:16:00,777 --> 00:16:02,110 said, "well, I wanted to know the truth. I wanted to know 483 00:16:02,112 --> 00:16:02,860 the truth. I wanted to know what really happened." 484 00:16:02,862 --> 00:16:05,647 what really happened." >> the state was not convinced, 485 00:16:05,649 --> 00:16:06,531 >> the state was not convinced, and enlisted one of west 486 00:16:06,533 --> 00:16:08,199 and enlisted one of west virginia's leading fire experts 487 00:16:08,201 --> 00:16:11,002 virginia's leading fire experts -- glen jackson, a forensic 488 00:16:11,004 --> 00:16:12,537 -- glen jackson, a forensic chemist -- to review beyler's 489 00:16:12,539 --> 00:16:13,037 chemist -- to review beyler's report. 490 00:16:13,039 --> 00:16:15,406 Report. >> my expertise is in the area 491 00:16:15,408 --> 00:16:17,291 >> my expertise is in the area of mass spectrometry as an 492 00:16:17,293 --> 00:16:18,076 of mass spectrometry as an analytical technique. 493 00:16:18,078 --> 00:16:22,013 Analytical technique. >> jackson's analysis also 494 00:16:22,015 --> 00:16:22,947 >> jackson's analysis also determined the fire that killed 495 00:16:22,949 --> 00:16:23,982 determined the fire that killed doc whitley was an accidental 496 00:16:23,984 --> 00:16:25,483 doc whitley was an accidental fire, started by faulty 497 00:16:25,485 --> 00:16:26,284 fire, started by faulty electrical wiring, but 498 00:16:26,286 --> 00:16:27,151 electrical wiring, but prosecutors and the original 499 00:16:27,153 --> 00:16:28,987 prosecutors and the original fire investigators wanted to 500 00:16:28,989 --> 00:16:32,490 fire investigators wanted to know why. In the original 501 00:16:32,492 --> 00:16:34,842 know why. In the original investigation, gas 502 00:16:34,844 --> 00:16:35,977 investigation, gas chromatography mass 503 00:16:35,979 --> 00:16:37,395 chromatography mass spectrometry showed the 504 00:16:37,397 --> 00:16:38,846 spectrometry showed the presence of an accelerant 505 00:16:38,848 --> 00:16:39,864 presence of an accelerant called toluene at the scene. 506 00:16:39,866 --> 00:16:43,368 Called toluene at the scene. Toluene is found in all sorts 507 00:16:43,370 --> 00:16:43,935 toluene is found in all sorts of products. 508 00:16:43,937 --> 00:16:46,404 Of products. >> for example, paint thinner 509 00:16:46,406 --> 00:16:47,304 >> for example, paint thinner is quite pure toluene. When you 510 00:16:47,306 --> 00:16:49,440 is quite pure toluene. When you buy a new pair of shoes and you 511 00:16:49,442 --> 00:16:50,742 buy a new pair of shoes and you get that new sneaker smell, 512 00:16:50,744 --> 00:16:55,146 get that new sneaker smell, that's toluene. And so, if 513 00:16:55,148 --> 00:16:57,699 that's toluene. And so, if someone is wearing a brand-new 514 00:16:57,701 --> 00:16:58,816 someone is wearing a brand-new pair of sneakers and they step 515 00:16:58,818 --> 00:17:00,418 pair of sneakers and they step in paint thinner, it's very 516 00:17:00,420 --> 00:17:01,619 in paint thinner, it's very difficult to tell the source of 517 00:17:01,621 --> 00:17:03,454 difficult to tell the source of that toluene. Is it from the 518 00:17:03,456 --> 00:17:05,623 that toluene. Is it from the original sneaker or is it from 519 00:17:05,625 --> 00:17:07,709 original sneaker or is it from the liquid that's then a 520 00:17:07,711 --> 00:17:09,427 the liquid that's then a foreign liquid to that sneaker? 521 00:17:09,429 --> 00:17:11,462 Foreign liquid to that sneaker? So, this is the kind of 522 00:17:11,464 --> 00:17:12,263 so, this is the kind of problems that fire debris 523 00:17:12,265 --> 00:17:12,764 problems that fire debris analysts face. 524 00:17:12,766 --> 00:17:15,216 Analysts face. >> all substances have unique 525 00:17:15,218 --> 00:17:16,267 >> all substances have unique chemical signatures. The gas 526 00:17:16,269 --> 00:17:18,052 chemical signatures. The gas chromatograph mass spectrometer 527 00:17:18,054 --> 00:17:19,604 chromatograph mass spectrometer identifies chemical signatures 528 00:17:19,606 --> 00:17:21,439 identifies chemical signatures by vaporizing samples and then 529 00:17:21,441 --> 00:17:22,974 by vaporizing samples and then comparing the results to a vast 530 00:17:22,976 --> 00:17:24,075 comparing the results to a vast database, a library of chemical 531 00:17:24,077 --> 00:17:24,642 database, a library of chemical signatures. 532 00:17:24,644 --> 00:17:31,315 Signatures. >> and so, you can go on and 533 00:17:31,317 --> 00:17:32,283 >> and so, you can go on and you can look and see what is in 534 00:17:32,285 --> 00:17:36,738 you can look and see what is in charcoal starter fluid, for 535 00:17:36,740 --> 00:17:37,255 charcoal starter fluid, for example. 536 00:17:37,257 --> 00:17:38,790 Example. >> the original prosecutors 537 00:17:38,792 --> 00:17:39,724 >> the original prosecutors said gas or lighter fluid 538 00:17:39,726 --> 00:17:40,892 said gas or lighter fluid produced the toluene at the 539 00:17:40,894 --> 00:17:42,460 produced the toluene at the fire scene, but those compounds 540 00:17:42,462 --> 00:17:44,262 fire scene, but those compounds should also have shown up in 541 00:17:44,264 --> 00:17:46,130 should also have shown up in the analysis, and they didn't. 542 00:17:46,132 --> 00:17:47,799 The analysis, and they didn't. This high peak in the readout 543 00:17:47,801 --> 00:17:48,499 this high peak in the readout showed only toluene. 544 00:17:48,501 --> 00:17:50,835 Showed only toluene. >> gasoline definitely does 545 00:17:50,837 --> 00:17:52,537 >> gasoline definitely does contain toluene. It also 546 00:17:52,539 --> 00:17:54,539 contain toluene. It also contains other aromatic 547 00:17:54,541 --> 00:17:56,074 contains other aromatic compounds, and they are always 548 00:17:56,076 --> 00:17:58,392 compounds, and they are always present in a very similar 549 00:17:58,394 --> 00:17:59,427 present in a very similar profile, and in this particular 550 00:17:59,429 --> 00:18:01,012 profile, and in this particular case, it's very easy to 551 00:18:01,014 --> 00:18:02,096 case, it's very easy to categorically exclude gasoline 552 00:18:02,098 --> 00:18:03,064 categorically exclude gasoline as a possible ignitable liquid 553 00:18:03,066 --> 00:18:05,349 as a possible ignitable liquid because all of those other 554 00:18:05,351 --> 00:18:06,267 because all of those other aromatic compounds are absent. 555 00:18:06,269 --> 00:18:11,322 Aromatic compounds are absent. >> so, where did this nearly 556 00:18:11,324 --> 00:18:13,157 >> so, where did this nearly pure toluene in the fire come 557 00:18:13,159 --> 00:18:15,526 pure toluene in the fire come from? From the fire itself, 558 00:18:15,528 --> 00:18:18,796 from? From the fire itself, likely through a process called 559 00:18:18,798 --> 00:18:19,330 likely through a process called pyrolysis. 560 00:18:19,332 --> 00:18:23,417 Pyrolysis. >> when organic materials 561 00:18:23,419 --> 00:18:24,585 >> when organic materials undergo pyrolysis, which is 562 00:18:24,587 --> 00:18:26,204 undergo pyrolysis, which is like heat damage, they also 563 00:18:26,206 --> 00:18:27,622 like heat damage, they also liberate a wide variety of 564 00:18:27,624 --> 00:18:28,873 liberate a wide variety of chemicals that weren't present 565 00:18:28,875 --> 00:18:29,740 chemicals that weren't present in the original material. 566 00:18:29,742 --> 00:18:34,011 In the original material. >> during the fire, the burning 567 00:18:34,013 --> 00:18:36,948 >> during the fire, the burning of the wooden floor likely 568 00:18:36,950 --> 00:18:40,301 of the wooden floor likely crated toluene through the 569 00:18:40,303 --> 00:18:41,469 crated toluene through the perfectly natural process of 570 00:18:41,471 --> 00:18:45,022 perfectly natural process of pyrolysis. The mistake that 571 00:18:45,024 --> 00:18:47,825 pyrolysis. The mistake that landed jason lively in jail was 572 00:18:47,827 --> 00:18:51,562 landed jason lively in jail was that analysts concluded he put 573 00:18:51,564 --> 00:18:52,563 that analysts concluded he put the toluene there, when in fact, 574 00:18:52,565 --> 00:18:53,531 the toluene there, when in fact, it was created by the fire 575 00:18:53,533 --> 00:18:54,532 it was created by the fire itself. This cost jason 14 hard 576 00:18:54,534 --> 00:18:57,401 itself. This cost jason 14 hard years in prison, but everyone 577 00:18:57,403 --> 00:18:58,836 years in prison, but everyone agrees it was an honest 578 00:18:58,838 --> 00:18:59,237 agrees it was an honest mistake. 579 00:18:59,239 --> 00:19:02,573 Mistake. >> I was completely convinced 580 00:19:02,575 --> 00:19:04,041 >> I was completely convinced that these convictions were an 581 00:19:04,043 --> 00:19:05,143 that these convictions were an injustice and that he needed to 582 00:19:05,145 --> 00:19:05,676 injustice and that he needed to be freed. 583 00:19:05,678 --> 00:19:07,745 Be freed. >> it's very difficult for 584 00:19:07,747 --> 00:19:08,880 >> it's very difficult for people to admit mistakes, even 585 00:19:08,882 --> 00:19:10,014 people to admit mistakes, even if those mistakes are 586 00:19:10,016 --> 00:19:11,015 if those mistakes are accidental, and even if they 587 00:19:11,017 --> 00:19:13,885 accidental, and even if they were hard to avoid at the time. 588 00:19:13,887 --> 00:19:19,473 Were hard to avoid at the time. Science has evolved since 2005, 589 00:19:19,475 --> 00:19:21,559 science has evolved since 2005, and we have more knowledge than 590 00:19:21,561 --> 00:19:23,261 and we have more knowledge than we did then, and out 591 00:19:23,263 --> 00:19:26,097 we did then, and out interpretations are a little 592 00:19:26,099 --> 00:19:30,401 interpretations are a little more advanced than they were 593 00:19:30,403 --> 00:19:30,935 more advanced than they were then. 594 00:19:30,937 --> 00:19:35,740 Then. >> a man who spent the last 13 595 00:19:35,742 --> 00:19:36,641 >> a man who spent the last 13 years in prison is now living 596 00:19:36,643 --> 00:19:37,408 years in prison is now living the rest of his life as a free 597 00:19:37,410 --> 00:19:38,109 the rest of his life as a free man thanks to new evidence 598 00:19:38,111 --> 00:19:38,826 man thanks to new evidence overturning his conviction. 599 00:19:38,828 --> 00:19:39,610 Overturning his conviction. >> in September of 2020, jason 600 00:19:39,612 --> 00:19:40,528 >> in September of 2020, jason lively, put in prison by faulty 601 00:19:40,530 --> 00:19:41,329 lively, put in prison by faulty science and freed by sound 602 00:19:41,331 --> 00:19:42,313 science and freed by sound science, was finally released, 603 00:19:42,315 --> 00:19:46,217 science, was finally released, free to hug his mother, marry 604 00:19:46,219 --> 00:19:47,118 free to hug his mother, marry his fiancée, and restart his 605 00:19:47,120 --> 00:19:47,618 his fiancée, and restart his life. 606 00:19:47,620 --> 00:19:52,540 Life. >> it felt really. (bleep) yeah, 607 00:19:52,542 --> 00:19:53,324 >> it felt really. (bleep) yeah, it felt real. It felt 608 00:19:53,326 --> 00:19:54,292 it felt real. It felt wonderful. Everybody was there, 609 00:19:54,294 --> 00:19:55,426 wonderful. Everybody was there, all my friends, all my family. 610 00:19:55,428 --> 00:19:56,711 All my friends, all my family. They were all nice, supporting 611 00:19:56,713 --> 00:19:57,178 they were all nice, supporting me. 612 00:19:57,180 --> 00:19:59,663 Me. >> yeah, it was good seeing him 613 00:19:59,665 --> 00:20:01,065 >> yeah, it was good seeing him walk around that corner in 614 00:20:01,067 --> 00:20:02,166 walk around that corner in street clothes and a new york 615 00:20:02,168 --> 00:20:02,717 street clothes and a new york yankees hat. 616 00:20:02,719 --> 00:20:04,185 Yankees hat. >> and that first hug and kiss, 617 00:20:04,187 --> 00:20:05,186 >> and that first hug and kiss, it was just, like, him being 618 00:20:05,188 --> 00:20:06,103 it was just, like, him being born all over again. I got to 619 00:20:06,105 --> 00:20:06,888 born all over again. I got to hold him, hug him. It was the 620 00:20:06,890 --> 00:20:08,522 hold him, hug him. It was the best day of my life other than 621 00:20:08,524 --> 00:20:09,223 best day of my life other than jason being born. 622 00:20:09,225 --> 00:20:18,816 Jason being born. >> the criminal justice system 623 00:20:18,818 --> 00:20:24,655 >> the criminal justice system is about seeking the truth. 624 00:20:24,657 --> 00:20:26,023 Is about seeking the truth. It's about getting to the 625 00:20:26,025 --> 00:20:26,824 it's about getting to the truth. The science was the 626 00:20:26,826 --> 00:20:27,825 truth. The science was the case. The science was our case 627 00:20:27,827 --> 00:20:28,960 case. The science was our case completely. And actually, the 628 00:20:28,962 --> 00:20:31,695 completely. And actually, the reason why things had gone so 629 00:20:31,697 --> 00:20:34,048 reason why things had gone so wrong in this case was because 630 00:20:34,050 --> 00:20:36,334 wrong in this case was because people didn't pay enough 631 00:20:36,336 --> 00:20:37,201 people didn't pay enough attention to the science. 632 00:20:37,203 --> 00:20:40,437 Attention to the science.