1
00:00:37,776 --> 00:00:39,343
If I had a chance to say,

2
00:00:39,474 --> 00:00:41,867
"Would you want an investigation
like that again?

3
00:00:41,998 --> 00:00:46,350
Three homicides,
connected with satanic cults?"

4
00:00:46,481 --> 00:00:48,700
I'd say, "Are you crazy?"
It destroyed my life.

5
00:00:48,831 --> 00:00:51,268
I got divorced in the process,
in the middle of it.

6
00:00:51,399 --> 00:00:54,924
It was... it consumed me.

7
00:00:55,055 --> 00:00:58,493
Carl Drew was initially
charged with two murders,

8
00:00:58,623 --> 00:01:02,366
that of Doreen Levesque
and Karen Marsden.

9
00:01:11,810 --> 00:01:15,336
Carl Drew was sentenced
for all of his natural life
to be in prison.

10
00:01:19,601 --> 00:01:24,432
There were many aspects
that corroborated Carl's
innocence story

11
00:01:24,562 --> 00:01:28,218
that had been omitted

12
00:01:28,349 --> 00:01:33,093
or trampled under at trial.

13
00:01:38,228 --> 00:01:41,362
Leah Johnson
was Carl Drew's girlfriend.

14
00:01:41,492 --> 00:01:45,235
And, uh,
she had Karen Marsden's ring.

15
00:01:47,846 --> 00:01:51,459
The ring placed Carl
at the scene of the homicide.

16
00:01:51,589 --> 00:01:55,071
We tracked down
Leah Johnson and she said,

17
00:01:55,202 --> 00:01:57,639
"Oh, yeah, you know,
the whole ring story,
that's a bullshit story."

18
00:02:05,734 --> 00:02:07,866
Carol Fletcher,
she was another prostitute.

19
00:02:07,997 --> 00:02:10,782
We spoke to her several times.

20
00:02:10,913 --> 00:02:15,265
Carol witnessed Robin Murphy
killing Karen Marsden.

21
00:02:20,140 --> 00:02:24,840
They have, you know,
made their case on Robin
being a central figure in this

22
00:02:24,970 --> 00:02:29,410
and her being a main perpetrator
instead of a victim.

23
00:02:29,540 --> 00:02:33,544
Robin had a very
rough upbringing,

24
00:02:33,675 --> 00:02:35,155
a very troubled,
troubled background.

25
00:02:40,029 --> 00:02:43,554
I was molested
and raped by Andy Maltais,
starting at age 11.

26
00:02:46,949 --> 00:02:50,300
Andy was a pedophile,
basically.

27
00:02:50,431 --> 00:02:52,781
He liked young girls.

28
00:02:52,911 --> 00:02:56,567
Andy Maltais... he was
gonna give me a ride home.

29
00:02:58,961 --> 00:03:01,920
He repeatedly raped me.

30
00:03:02,051 --> 00:03:07,448
He would drive around
and find these young girls.

31
00:03:07,578 --> 00:03:10,755
People like that,
they're predators.

32
00:03:13,367 --> 00:03:15,934
I went to the police station
and told them about Andy.

33
00:03:16,065 --> 00:03:19,286
They wouldn't even take my
statement 'cause I was only 12.

34
00:03:19,416 --> 00:03:21,462
They didn't care.

35
00:03:24,552 --> 00:03:25,727
No.

36
00:03:25,857 --> 00:03:28,295
You had, you know, girls

37
00:03:28,425 --> 00:03:31,472
being exploited and they just
weren't particularly concerned

38
00:03:31,602 --> 00:03:34,997
about the exploitation factor
of those girls.

39
00:03:35,127 --> 00:03:38,087
Barbara Raposa
had gone to high school
with Robin Murphy.

40
00:03:38,218 --> 00:03:41,351
I really didn't know
much about Barbara
until we found her body.

41
00:03:45,050 --> 00:03:49,185
Andy Maltais, I didn't
say he murdered Barbara

42
00:03:49,316 --> 00:03:53,668
because of what he did to me,
but so that he couldn't
do it to anyone else.

43
00:03:53,798 --> 00:03:56,323
And it worked.

44
00:03:56,453 --> 00:03:59,935
Without Robin Murphy,
they wouldn't have had
a case at all.

45
00:04:00,065 --> 00:04:04,374
How do we know
what is the truth today?

46
00:04:04,505 --> 00:04:06,376
I don't think you do.

47
00:04:09,988 --> 00:04:12,469
It does not stand to reason

48
00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,516
that one 17-year-old woman

49
00:04:15,646 --> 00:04:19,476
would be at three
separate murders

50
00:04:19,607 --> 00:04:21,652
committed by separate men

51
00:04:21,783 --> 00:04:25,003
at separate times
in separate places.

52
00:04:25,134 --> 00:04:27,832
It just doesn't make sense.

53
00:04:27,963 --> 00:04:30,792
How can one person
be in all these places?

54
00:04:30,922 --> 00:04:31,836
What is she, Forrest Gump?

55
00:05:41,079 --> 00:05:44,213
Lenny Bruce famously said
that in the halls of justice

56
00:05:44,344 --> 00:05:46,563
the only justice
is in the halls.

57
00:05:46,694 --> 00:05:48,348
And this is one of those cases.

58
00:06:05,190 --> 00:06:10,413
Carl Drew went to prison
based entirely
on the word of these women

59
00:06:10,544 --> 00:06:13,590
whose stories never matched up,
not once, not ever.

60
00:06:13,721 --> 00:06:15,026
Not once on the stand,

61
00:06:15,157 --> 00:06:16,854
not once in interviews
with the cops,

62
00:06:16,985 --> 00:06:17,986
nothing added up.

63
00:06:22,338 --> 00:06:24,514
Mike Cutler was appointed
to me as an attorney,

64
00:06:24,645 --> 00:06:25,733
and he
ended up putting

65
00:06:25,863 --> 00:06:27,125
all this stuff together

66
00:06:27,256 --> 00:06:28,779
and we submitted it
in the court, you know?

67
00:06:35,177 --> 00:06:37,962
A motion for new trial

68
00:06:38,093 --> 00:06:41,313
is designed to bring
new evidence,

69
00:06:41,444 --> 00:06:45,448
or evidence that wasn't
admitted at trial, into court

70
00:06:45,579 --> 00:06:48,799
so that a new trial motion judge
can look at that evidence.

71
00:06:53,325 --> 00:06:57,242
And the judge
granted that motion.

72
00:06:57,373 --> 00:06:58,983
We were granted the
evidentiary hearing.

73
00:06:59,114 --> 00:07:00,594
We produced
the evidence.

74
00:07:00,724 --> 00:07:02,770
Everybody who said,

75
00:07:02,900 --> 00:07:04,946
"This is what happened" recanted
and said they were coerced.

76
00:07:22,485 --> 00:07:27,055
I got a call from
the assistant district attorney.

77
00:07:27,185 --> 00:07:32,800
He called me and asked me,
"Could I go to the trial
with them?" And I said,

78
00:07:32,930 --> 00:07:34,889
"Yes, it's too important a case
to have to retry."

79
00:07:37,674 --> 00:07:41,417
These cases ultimately,
unless you have
forensic evidence,

80
00:07:41,548 --> 00:07:44,115
uh, come down to
a credibility contest.

81
00:07:47,467 --> 00:07:52,472
The witnesses,
Fletcher and Johnson,
were in tough shape.

82
00:07:52,602 --> 00:07:54,865
Yet, they kept it together
and they showed up.

83
00:08:11,752 --> 00:08:15,277
Carol Fletcher,
she said, "Carl shouldn't even
be in jail at all."

84
00:08:22,153 --> 00:08:24,199
She said, "He wasn't there,

85
00:08:24,329 --> 00:08:27,463
what happened at the trial
was that we were all coerced,

86
00:08:27,594 --> 00:08:31,598
we were all threatened.
That, you know, they put us
in jail or whatever."

87
00:08:31,728 --> 00:08:34,775
She's like, "And, of course,
we all have
criminal backgrounds,

88
00:08:34,905 --> 00:08:36,951
we were probably all
on probation.

89
00:08:37,081 --> 00:08:39,910
And so we just said whatever
it was they wanted us to say."

90
00:08:40,041 --> 00:08:42,913
There is some amount
of witness manipulation

91
00:08:43,044 --> 00:08:46,134
that a prosecutor
is permitted to do.

92
00:08:46,264 --> 00:08:49,877
It's just that telling someone
that you're not gonna send them
to prison

93
00:08:50,007 --> 00:08:53,707
if they testify for you
is, uh, inherently coercive.

94
00:09:01,018 --> 00:09:03,543
Right. Yeah. Yeah.

95
00:09:07,198 --> 00:09:08,286
This is a class issue.

96
00:09:08,417 --> 00:09:10,419
Where poor people go to prison.

97
00:09:10,550 --> 00:09:12,552
They don't have access
to defense attorneys,

98
00:09:12,682 --> 00:09:16,207
they don't have people clamoring
for their release.

99
00:09:16,338 --> 00:09:19,036
From the very beginning of this
case, I've told these people

100
00:09:19,167 --> 00:09:22,257
that I couldn't read
and I couldn't write
and all that stuff.

101
00:09:22,387 --> 00:09:25,173
And they end up using that
and took advantage of that.

102
00:09:25,303 --> 00:09:28,350
Knowing that I couldn't,
you know,

103
00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:31,005
I couldn't understand
a lot of the stuff that
they were telling me about.

104
00:09:31,135 --> 00:09:34,399
This is another example,
in this particular case,

105
00:09:34,530 --> 00:09:38,882
you know, we would call it
in Boston, here's a poor whiskey
tango dude with no family,

106
00:09:39,013 --> 00:09:40,580
and it was very easy
to railroad him into prison.

107
00:09:49,676 --> 00:09:52,026
They weren't the greatest
witnesses in the world.

108
00:09:52,156 --> 00:09:54,942
They were vigorously
cross-examined.

109
00:09:55,072 --> 00:09:57,684
Leah Johnson in particular.

110
00:09:57,814 --> 00:10:00,861
And, as I recall correctly,
she was sitting in the back
of the courtroom,

111
00:10:00,991 --> 00:10:05,213
she nodded out
and I think fell over,

112
00:10:05,343 --> 00:10:08,129
uh, which... certainly didn't
enhance her credibility.

113
00:10:12,568 --> 00:10:15,615
All of the people who had been
involved in the investigation

114
00:10:15,745 --> 00:10:19,096
were brought out of retirement
or located.

115
00:10:19,227 --> 00:10:22,099
All these people were brought
back to trial and said,
you know,

116
00:10:22,230 --> 00:10:25,276
"These are all drug-addicted
street workers,
you can't believe 'em."

117
00:10:44,469 --> 00:10:47,081
She was comfortable with us.

118
00:10:47,211 --> 00:10:48,996
We weren't intimidating her.
We didn't have any problems
with her.

119
00:10:49,126 --> 00:10:50,040
We got along with her very well.

120
00:11:01,573 --> 00:11:05,534
The testimony
of Carol Fletcher
and originally Leah,

121
00:11:05,665 --> 00:11:09,669
everything fit in
with the evidence
that we found at the scene.

122
00:11:26,598 --> 00:11:32,387
We did get the rental car
that Carol had driven
with that group that night

123
00:11:32,517 --> 00:11:36,260
and had it tested by the state
police crime lab for blood.
Never found any blood.

124
00:11:47,445 --> 00:11:50,971
Well, if they didn't use
that vehicle, if they
used another vehicle.

125
00:11:51,101 --> 00:11:53,016
They could have gone back
the next day.

126
00:12:01,372 --> 00:12:06,116
That's... we didn't find any
blood in the car because she was
killed outside the car.

127
00:12:06,247 --> 00:12:09,641
And we didn't find any blood
in the car because if the story,

128
00:12:09,772 --> 00:12:14,298
the rumors that we heard,
that she had been cut up
and thrown in dumpsters...

129
00:12:14,429 --> 00:12:18,128
Yes, you are.

130
00:12:18,259 --> 00:12:22,089
-Absolutely.

131
00:12:22,219 --> 00:12:23,307
But if they...

132
00:12:27,790 --> 00:12:31,576
There's no physical
evidence at all tying Carl Drew
to these crimes.

133
00:12:31,707 --> 00:12:34,231
Not a single iota
of physical evidence.

134
00:12:34,362 --> 00:12:37,104
Karen was killed...
where she was killed,

135
00:12:37,234 --> 00:12:39,541
off Roberts Street,
Family Beach, in Westport.

136
00:12:39,671 --> 00:12:42,239
That's where her clothing
was found, that's
where her hair was found.

137
00:12:42,370 --> 00:12:46,156
-No.

138
00:13:00,083 --> 00:13:04,348
That should have
reopened this case and earned
Carl Drew a new trial.

139
00:13:04,479 --> 00:13:06,829
But no one wants to relive
this case.

140
00:13:16,273 --> 00:13:18,319
I called Robin Murphy
as our witness.

141
00:13:18,449 --> 00:13:21,061
I had her parole hearing
in which she said she had lied.

142
00:13:30,287 --> 00:13:32,159
There was a palpable sense
of evil in the room.

143
00:13:32,289 --> 00:13:34,770
At least, to my perception.

144
00:13:34,901 --> 00:13:39,819
And she... spit out
her testimony.

145
00:13:39,949 --> 00:13:43,474
And she couldn't deny
the fact that she had

146
00:13:43,605 --> 00:13:45,302
recanted under oath
at the parole hearing.

147
00:13:52,266 --> 00:13:57,097
But she continued to express
hostility towards Carl

148
00:13:57,227 --> 00:13:59,621
and tried to say
that he had done it,

149
00:13:59,751 --> 00:14:02,537
uh, despite her saying
that he hadn't done it.

150
00:14:05,714 --> 00:14:08,282
If there
was a new trial granted,

151
00:14:08,412 --> 00:14:12,939
and you can't count on Robin's
reliability and testimony,

152
00:14:13,069 --> 00:14:16,464
and Carol is now
a defense witness
and Leah is a defense witness,

153
00:14:16,594 --> 00:14:18,466
then what evidence do you have?

154
00:14:18,596 --> 00:14:20,250
'Cause there wasn't a shred
of actual evidence.

155
00:14:20,381 --> 00:14:23,819
There's no evidence.

156
00:14:23,950 --> 00:14:25,647
There's no evidence
that he's guilty.

157
00:14:25,777 --> 00:14:28,824
The only evidence was
Robin Murphy and Carol Fletcher

158
00:14:28,955 --> 00:14:31,087
saying that they were there
and saw it happen,

159
00:14:31,218 --> 00:14:34,569
uh, and they've both denied it.

160
00:14:34,699 --> 00:14:39,269
I sure thought that,
if I had a straight-up judge,

161
00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:43,665
I should have been entitled
to the benefit of the doubt.

162
00:14:43,795 --> 00:14:45,014
But I didn't have
a straight-up judge.

163
00:14:49,801 --> 00:14:51,151
They just completely
shut it down.

164
00:14:59,768 --> 00:15:02,553
Me and Paul and Mike Cutler,
we were shocked and amazed.

165
00:15:09,734 --> 00:15:12,694
The judge, um,

166
00:15:12,824 --> 00:15:19,135
who I was trying
the new trial motion to,

167
00:15:19,266 --> 00:15:24,227
I later heard rumors was having
lunch every day with the former
prosecutor on the case,

168
00:15:24,358 --> 00:15:27,361
to be sure that everything
was going copacetically.

169
00:15:46,249 --> 00:15:50,514
The judge said, "You know what?
A new trial isn't
gonna be granted. It's done.

170
00:15:50,645 --> 00:15:52,777
He'll stay in jail forever,

171
00:15:52,908 --> 00:15:56,781
and she'll still be able
to go out and get parole
if she can.

172
00:15:56,912 --> 00:15:59,219
And that's it.
We don't wanna hear it anymore."

173
00:15:59,349 --> 00:16:01,830
It was a fucking huge blunder.

174
00:16:01,961 --> 00:16:05,660
It's been a difficult
process for me to get
into this case.

175
00:16:05,790 --> 00:16:08,184
A case I worked on for 11 years.

176
00:16:08,315 --> 00:16:10,012
Didn't work out for my client.

177
00:16:10,143 --> 00:16:12,580
Carl's done 40 years for
something that he didn't do

178
00:16:12,710 --> 00:16:15,322
and all of these other people
have moved on.

179
00:16:15,452 --> 00:16:17,367
Carl's still in prison.

180
00:16:17,498 --> 00:16:20,849
Carl has exhausted his appeals.

181
00:16:20,980 --> 00:16:24,287
He obviously thought he had
a good case for an appeal.

182
00:16:24,418 --> 00:16:27,334
That failed. He gets no more
bite at the apple.

183
00:16:27,464 --> 00:16:31,164
Unless there's some new evidence
that arises.

184
00:17:35,489 --> 00:17:39,493
I lived in Harbor Terrace
in the top row, um,

185
00:17:39,623 --> 00:17:44,193
two doors... two entryways
down from Sonny.

186
00:17:45,977 --> 00:17:47,979
My father just wasn't
in the picture.

187
00:17:48,110 --> 00:17:52,854
And, uh, in the projects
that wasn't abnormal.

188
00:17:52,984 --> 00:17:58,599
And my mother,
she died June 14, 2013.

189
00:18:00,340 --> 00:18:02,559
And when she passed,

190
00:18:02,690 --> 00:18:06,128
I cleaned out her apartment
and I found a baby book

191
00:18:06,259 --> 00:18:09,262
which had like my first steps,
when my first steps were,

192
00:18:09,392 --> 00:18:13,440
my first toy, and, um...

193
00:18:13,570 --> 00:18:16,095
And a picture of Carl Drew.

194
00:18:19,533 --> 00:18:23,667
He was the first one
to come see me in the hospital.

195
00:18:23,798 --> 00:18:27,541
I found a, uh, a Facebook page
that Carl had

196
00:18:27,671 --> 00:18:30,370
and he wanted me
to go see him. So I did.

197
00:18:33,721 --> 00:18:37,072
I asked him if he might know
who my father is.

198
00:18:37,203 --> 00:18:41,250
Um, and then he ended up telling
me there's a chance that he
could be my father.

199
00:19:17,243 --> 00:19:20,115
My mother
wasn't physically abusive.

200
00:19:20,246 --> 00:19:24,598
You know, but she, uh,
you know, she was a drug addict
and a prostitute.

201
00:19:24,728 --> 00:19:28,819
And, uh, you know,
so I witnessed a lot
of like fighting,

202
00:19:28,950 --> 00:19:33,781
a lot of... different stuff,
and, uh...

203
00:19:33,911 --> 00:19:35,652
I started acting up in school.

204
00:19:35,783 --> 00:19:38,568
And, um... they, uh...

205
00:19:38,699 --> 00:19:43,225
they recommended they put me
in like special needs, um...

206
00:19:43,356 --> 00:19:46,228
They didn't know what was wrong
with me, they recommended me
to do like counseling.

207
00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,927
So when I was probably about,
I don't know, five or six,

208
00:19:50,058 --> 00:19:53,017
I had told my mother that, um,

209
00:19:53,148 --> 00:19:57,718
I saw these people
up on the roof killing a girl.

210
00:20:02,462 --> 00:20:03,854
I saw three for sure.

211
00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:08,990
I'm pretty sure one is Robin.
The other two I'm, uh,

212
00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:12,385
100 percent sure was Sonny
and Carl Davis.

213
00:20:15,431 --> 00:20:18,478
-There's a lot of commotion,
a lot of screaming.

214
00:20:18,608 --> 00:20:20,871
I don't remember
how I got up there.

215
00:20:21,002 --> 00:20:23,047
Just a lot of yelling.

216
00:20:23,178 --> 00:20:25,224
I think I was crying.

217
00:20:28,966 --> 00:20:30,794
No, it's kind of a blur.

218
00:20:32,883 --> 00:20:33,536
She would have been dead.

219
00:20:36,626 --> 00:20:39,499
There was a woman on the roof
that...

220
00:20:39,629 --> 00:20:40,804
that Carl Davis
was holding back.

221
00:20:44,112 --> 00:20:47,376
Well, Carl Davis was probably
pulling, um...

222
00:20:48,812 --> 00:20:49,857
Robin off her.

223
00:20:49,987 --> 00:20:51,293
Karen.

224
00:21:04,567 --> 00:21:06,917
I'm waiting
for Carl to call.

225
00:21:07,048 --> 00:21:09,877
Um... he has limited access

226
00:21:10,007 --> 00:21:12,009
to email through
a prison system,

227
00:21:12,140 --> 00:21:15,099
so I sent him an email and it
takes him a while to get it.

228
00:21:15,230 --> 00:21:16,840
And then I have to wait
till he gets phone time.

229
00:21:16,971 --> 00:21:19,016
And then can call me
at any minute,

230
00:21:19,147 --> 00:21:21,280
and I just kind of have to be
on standby for when he calls.

231
00:21:26,285 --> 00:21:29,244
The witness is interesting
'cause I'm not really sure
what to believe.

232
00:21:29,375 --> 00:21:33,204
I mean, aside
from the interview,
I spent the whole day with him.

233
00:21:33,335 --> 00:21:37,208
You know, I was in Fall River,
I spent the whole day with him,

234
00:21:37,339 --> 00:21:40,081
I went to lunch with him,
I talked to him, I saw his ID.

235
00:21:40,211 --> 00:21:43,606
So there's no question
he is who he says he is.

236
00:21:43,737 --> 00:21:50,178
And I really believe that he
believes what he's saying.

237
00:21:50,309 --> 00:21:55,096
There's also the issue of him
being presumably Carl's son.

238
00:21:55,226 --> 00:21:58,839
You know, so he has
that motivation

239
00:21:58,969 --> 00:22:04,018
to kind of at least tailor
his memory to want to help Carl.

240
00:22:04,148 --> 00:22:05,889
I don't think he's doing that
on purpose.

241
00:22:06,020 --> 00:22:10,024
But, um, it's possible.

242
00:22:10,154 --> 00:22:12,635
I think the challenge in all
this is that everybody has
a piece of the puzzle.

243
00:22:12,766 --> 00:22:15,159
And we have to step back
and look at all the pieces

244
00:22:15,290 --> 00:22:17,597
and put that together
into a collective story.

245
00:22:17,727 --> 00:22:20,121
And that's what tells you
what happened.

246
00:22:20,251 --> 00:22:23,820
-Okay. This is Carl.

247
00:22:27,084 --> 00:22:30,087
<i>Hello.
This is a prepaid collect
call from...</i>

248
00:22:33,090 --> 00:22:35,702
Carl. Hey.

249
00:22:35,832 --> 00:22:37,878
Carl, can you hear me?

250
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:42,273
Okay, so I met with the witness.

251
00:22:42,404 --> 00:22:45,842
And, um, he told me about
the roof of Harbor Terrace.

252
00:22:45,973 --> 00:22:48,062
And I assume he's told you
the same thing?

253
00:22:57,463 --> 00:23:01,510
I do think there's another
possibility that I wanna
ask you about, I guess.

254
00:23:03,469 --> 00:23:05,906
So starting
with Doreen Levesque.

255
00:23:06,036 --> 00:23:07,516
She's the girl
under the bleachers.

256
00:23:07,647 --> 00:23:09,692
She's killed first.

257
00:23:13,609 --> 00:23:17,004
Doreen Levesque,
her head and face
were so badly distorted

258
00:23:17,134 --> 00:23:18,571
from the large stones

259
00:23:18,701 --> 00:23:20,964
that they all threw

260
00:23:21,095 --> 00:23:23,053
at her face.

261
00:23:25,012 --> 00:23:26,927
She was tied up
with fishing wire.

262
00:23:27,057 --> 00:23:29,059
Her head was crushed with rocks.

263
00:23:29,190 --> 00:23:32,149
She was posed
in a sexual position.

264
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:36,980
This is something that a male
serial killer does to a woman,
usually.

265
00:23:40,723 --> 00:23:44,727
Then right after Doreen
Levesque, like within 25 days,
Barbara Raposa is killed.

266
00:23:44,858 --> 00:23:47,904
And those two murders
are not just similar.

267
00:23:48,035 --> 00:23:50,167
They are the same.

268
00:23:53,170 --> 00:23:56,086
Her hands were tied
behind her back also.

269
00:23:56,217 --> 00:23:58,262
And they had smashed her
in the face with a rock

270
00:23:58,393 --> 00:24:00,613
and her face was completely
smashed in.

271
00:24:06,096 --> 00:24:07,750
Uh, yes.

272
00:24:10,579 --> 00:24:12,755
What always confused me
is that Robin claims

273
00:24:12,886 --> 00:24:15,279
that two different people
committed these murders.

274
00:24:15,410 --> 00:24:18,021
Robin said that you killed
Doreen Levesque,

275
00:24:18,152 --> 00:24:19,980
and she knows that
because Karen told her.

276
00:24:41,262 --> 00:24:44,613
Then she said that Andy
killed Barbara Raposa.

277
00:24:48,225 --> 00:24:51,620
Andy Maltais told me
a story.

278
00:24:51,751 --> 00:24:55,276
That angels carried him
over Barbara while
she was being murdered.

279
00:25:08,289 --> 00:25:11,858
Yes, it is. It... it does seem
very strange, doesn't it?

280
00:25:11,988 --> 00:25:16,340
You know, Andy, he always
said he wasn't there.

281
00:25:16,471 --> 00:25:19,779
I always thought there was
something about that
that he didn't tell me.

282
00:25:19,909 --> 00:25:20,997
But I couldn't
get it out of him.

283
00:25:23,478 --> 00:25:25,872
So I just wanna
put this out there.

284
00:25:26,002 --> 00:25:29,223
I think Andy Maltais
killed both Doreen and Barbara.

285
00:25:33,923 --> 00:25:35,969
-Stick with me.

286
00:25:36,099 --> 00:25:39,494
So if you look at the location
of Barbara and Doreen's murder,

287
00:25:39,625 --> 00:25:41,583
they are within miles
of each other.

288
00:25:41,714 --> 00:25:45,195
And Andy Maltais lives
directly in the middle of them.

289
00:25:45,326 --> 00:25:46,806
-So that could be a coincidence.

290
00:25:46,936 --> 00:25:49,069
But that would be
a huge coincidence

291
00:25:49,199 --> 00:25:53,160
that two young women would be
murdered in the exact same way

292
00:25:53,290 --> 00:25:56,685
within six miles of each other
and both within two miles
of Andy's house.

293
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,037
You met Andy at one point.
Right?

294
00:26:05,651 --> 00:26:07,914
Walpole's the name of a prison?
Right?

295
00:26:14,311 --> 00:26:15,704
Okay.

296
00:26:24,626 --> 00:26:28,412
Okay. Well, get this.
The police knew Andy
had a criminal history

297
00:26:28,543 --> 00:26:31,111
that is very similar
to these murders.

298
00:26:35,071 --> 00:26:39,293
When I had heard that my dad
had raped some woman

299
00:26:39,423 --> 00:26:43,471
and heard that he was a
pedophile and mentally unstable,
I started researching it.

300
00:26:43,602 --> 00:26:47,127
So I says, "Well, I'm gonna dig
a little deeper."

301
00:26:47,257 --> 00:26:48,868
So I called my mother.

302
00:26:52,219 --> 00:26:56,353
She says, "When I got together
with your dad,"

303
00:26:56,484 --> 00:26:59,400
she said, "he was just coming
out of jail."

304
00:26:59,530 --> 00:27:02,272
I said, "Jail? For what?"

305
00:27:02,403 --> 00:27:06,276
And she says, "Well,
he got a charge for rape."

306
00:27:06,407 --> 00:27:09,932
Andy had
a background
of doing things like that.

307
00:27:10,063 --> 00:27:13,544
He was arrested up
in the Freetown State Forest

308
00:27:13,675 --> 00:27:17,287
by the state police
back in 1957

309
00:27:17,418 --> 00:27:21,030
for picking up girls from
a junior high in Fall River

310
00:27:21,161 --> 00:27:23,598
and taking them up
to the, what they call
the forest,

311
00:27:23,729 --> 00:27:26,296
attempting to rape
or raping the girls.

312
00:27:26,427 --> 00:27:30,257
And my former station commander
is one of the people
that arrested him.

313
00:27:30,387 --> 00:27:32,302
He did some house of correction
time on that.

314
00:27:32,433 --> 00:27:36,350
Back then, things would
slip through the cracks.

315
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,049
We didn't have the computer
databases that we have today.

316
00:27:40,180 --> 00:27:44,314
People moved from one town
to the next. Not just Andy.

317
00:27:44,445 --> 00:27:46,926
And there was really no way
to track them. It just
simply got overlooked.

318
00:27:54,150 --> 00:27:56,326
Yeah, and the crazy thing is
that both Doreen and Barbara

319
00:27:56,457 --> 00:27:58,938
were tied at their hands
and ankles

320
00:27:59,068 --> 00:28:01,418
with what they called
a white, twisted twine.

321
00:28:01,549 --> 00:28:05,031
And when you look into it more,
it was a white fishing line.

322
00:28:05,161 --> 00:28:08,251
And not only is it the same
at both murder scenes,

323
00:28:08,382 --> 00:28:10,340
but Andy had that in the trunk
of his car when
they searched it.

324
00:28:15,171 --> 00:28:18,131
Andy Maltais,
he had a bag of tricks

325
00:28:18,261 --> 00:28:20,350
that were all sexual items
that he used--

326
00:28:20,481 --> 00:28:23,092
vibrators and rope
and handcuffs.

327
00:28:28,489 --> 00:28:30,752
And I spoke to one
of his victims,

328
00:28:30,883 --> 00:28:33,233
and she said that Andy would
do the same thing to her.

329
00:28:39,369 --> 00:28:43,069
Andy had a freshwater fishing
pole. I remember that.

330
00:28:43,199 --> 00:28:48,030
He had rope in his trunk
of his car,
with his sicko sex toys.

331
00:28:53,383 --> 00:28:55,255
He would use rope on me.

332
00:28:55,385 --> 00:28:58,998
Tie me up,
my wrists to my ankles.

333
00:28:59,128 --> 00:29:02,001
I was petrified.
I was petrified.

334
00:29:06,701 --> 00:29:09,399
So Andy killing both Doreen
and Barbara makes sense.

335
00:29:09,530 --> 00:29:13,795
Especially considering that he
was the one who was originally

336
00:29:13,926 --> 00:29:16,755
suggesting that you were
the killer of Doreen Levesque.

337
00:29:25,676 --> 00:29:30,203
He knew a state police officer
that I had worked with.

338
00:29:30,333 --> 00:29:32,683
And he went
to the state police officer

339
00:29:32,814 --> 00:29:36,383
and said he knew something
about the Levesque murder.

340
00:29:36,513 --> 00:29:38,864
So I met him one day.

341
00:29:38,994 --> 00:29:42,389
We snuck him into the
state police barracks in
Dartmouth and talked to him.

342
00:29:42,519 --> 00:29:44,565
And when he got there he said,
"Well, I don't really
know anything."

343
00:29:48,656 --> 00:29:52,094
Well, yes...

344
00:29:52,225 --> 00:29:55,489
But then he brought Robin
and Karen Marsden in.

345
00:29:55,619 --> 00:29:59,798
they came out with the story
about Carl Drew having done it.

346
00:30:05,238 --> 00:30:09,546
Andy associated
with all those girls--

347
00:30:09,677 --> 00:30:13,550
Barbara, Robin, Karen Marsden.

348
00:30:13,681 --> 00:30:15,204
I never really understood that.

349
00:30:20,035 --> 00:30:23,865
So if Andy killed Doreen
and Barbara, that still
leaves us with Karen Marsden.

350
00:30:25,867 --> 00:30:28,304
And the thing about Karen
is that she had told

351
00:30:28,435 --> 00:30:32,613
lots of people that she
witnessed the first murder.

352
00:31:06,777 --> 00:31:09,432
So in that case, Karen saw Andy
kill Doreen Levesque

353
00:31:09,563 --> 00:31:12,305
and could potentially testify
against him.

354
00:31:12,435 --> 00:31:15,917
And there's actually a record
to support that.

355
00:31:16,048 --> 00:31:19,181
Karen's grandmother actually
told the Fall River police

356
00:31:19,312 --> 00:31:23,577
that Andy had threatened Karen
before she was killed.

357
00:31:23,707 --> 00:31:29,235
Andy told her that he thought
he might be arrested
for the murder of Barbara.

358
00:31:29,365 --> 00:31:32,629
And that if he was, he felt
Karen's safety was in jeopardy.

359
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:36,198
So Andy had threatened
Karen's grandmother

360
00:31:36,329 --> 00:31:38,766
that Karen might be hurt
if he was arrested.

361
00:31:38,897 --> 00:31:41,290
And the crazy part is that's
exactly what happened.

362
00:31:49,646 --> 00:31:52,519
So the police knew
that Andy and Karen
had this relationship

363
00:31:52,649 --> 00:31:55,609
and that Andy had threatened
Karen, but they never
investigated.

364
00:31:55,739 --> 00:32:00,962
They thought Andy had an alibi.
They thought Andy was in jail
at the time of Karen's murder.

365
00:32:01,093 --> 00:32:05,401
But in Massachusetts at the
time, if you were arrested
you had to be arraigned

366
00:32:05,532 --> 00:32:10,711
within 24 hours,
and Andy's lawyer
had arranged for bail.

367
00:32:13,757 --> 00:32:18,545
The first time I met
Andy, he was already in court.

368
00:32:18,675 --> 00:32:22,157
He was in the prisoners' area.
So I went over.
I told him who I was.

369
00:32:22,288 --> 00:32:24,464
Told him to be quiet.

370
00:32:24,594 --> 00:32:30,905
Uh, and, um, I told him
we either arrange for bail,

371
00:32:31,036 --> 00:32:34,909
or I'd have to go see him
at the jail.

372
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,564
But whatever happened,
just to be quiet.

373
00:32:37,694 --> 00:32:40,219
And, um, he was arraigned.

374
00:32:40,349 --> 00:32:44,266
And I did arrange
for bail for him.

375
00:32:49,141 --> 00:32:50,969
I even called
the Fall River District Court,

376
00:32:51,099 --> 00:32:52,971
and they looked up Andy's
records for me,

377
00:32:53,101 --> 00:32:56,452
and they confirmed that Andy
was released on February 8th,

378
00:32:56,583 --> 00:32:58,237
hours before the murder
of Karen Marsden.

379
00:33:00,717 --> 00:33:03,111
Hello?

380
00:33:07,028 --> 00:33:10,162
Andy Maltais,
his general demeanor

381
00:33:10,292 --> 00:33:14,253
was just, um...

382
00:33:14,383 --> 00:33:17,778
almost accepting
of his own behavior.

383
00:33:17,908 --> 00:33:20,520
You know, didn't...
he didn't see the world
the way you and I do.

384
00:33:23,566 --> 00:33:26,439
When you look
at the autopsy reports
for all three women,

385
00:33:26,569 --> 00:33:30,486
even though they never
found Karen's body,
they found her skull,

386
00:33:30,617 --> 00:33:33,794
and on Karen's skull
there was a crush injury.

387
00:33:33,924 --> 00:33:37,841
Essentially, her skull
was crushed kind of right
on her left forehead.

388
00:33:37,972 --> 00:33:41,497
Which is exactly the same
as the other two murders.

389
00:33:41,628 --> 00:33:45,762
All three women died
of a skull fracture
with a large, blunt object.

390
00:33:45,893 --> 00:33:48,548
So as far as we know,
Karen is killed in the exact
same way as Doreen,

391
00:33:48,678 --> 00:33:50,767
the exact same way as Barbara,

392
00:33:50,898 --> 00:33:54,945
and Andy has a motive to kill
her and no alibi for her murder.

393
00:33:55,076 --> 00:33:57,644
-So that still leaves us
with the witness on the roof

394
00:33:57,774 --> 00:33:59,776
of Harbor Terrace.

395
00:34:08,655 --> 00:34:10,700
Yes. He was not there.

396
00:34:13,747 --> 00:34:16,097
Hundred percent sure
he was not on that roof.

397
00:34:19,927 --> 00:34:22,930
I know for a fact that Carl
Davis and Sonny was on the roof.

398
00:34:23,061 --> 00:34:26,325
Carl Davis was holding somebody.

399
00:34:26,455 --> 00:34:27,543
And...

400
00:34:29,763 --> 00:34:32,070
I'm pretty sure that...
that was Robin.

401
00:34:37,684 --> 00:34:39,816
I mean, there's a lot of
possibilities there, right?

402
00:34:39,947 --> 00:34:43,429
Maybe the witness got the day
wrong. Maybe he's off by a year.

403
00:34:43,559 --> 00:34:45,822
Maybe he was four, not five.

404
00:34:45,953 --> 00:34:48,608
He wasn't even 100 percent sure
that Robin was on the roof.

405
00:34:48,738 --> 00:34:52,351
He said he probably... he said
it was probably Robin.

406
00:34:52,481 --> 00:34:55,136
-You'd met Carl Davis, right?

407
00:35:01,142 --> 00:35:03,797
Did you know he was involved
with Robin or Karen or Andy?

408
00:35:15,722 --> 00:35:19,595
So I've been talking to Robin,
um, through email.

409
00:35:19,726 --> 00:35:22,990
-She gets a limited amount
of email at the prison.

410
00:35:23,121 --> 00:35:27,603
And I've really, really been
pushing her to let me
come back in

411
00:35:27,734 --> 00:35:30,084
and interview her on camera,
and she's agreed.

412
00:35:30,215 --> 00:35:31,912
-I have not told her all this.

413
00:35:32,042 --> 00:35:34,001
I have not told her
about the witness.

414
00:35:34,132 --> 00:35:36,046
I've not told her all this stuff
about Andy.

415
00:35:36,177 --> 00:35:38,875
I don't even know if she knows
about Andy's criminal history.

416
00:35:39,006 --> 00:35:41,922
-I want to tell her in person

417
00:35:42,052 --> 00:35:45,055
and give her a chance
to either explain herself

418
00:35:45,186 --> 00:35:48,015
or maybe fill in something else
that we're missing.

419
00:35:48,146 --> 00:35:52,106
Um, she knew Andy the best
out of anyone, unfortunately.

420
00:35:52,237 --> 00:35:54,456
-So I'm gonna fly to Boston

421
00:35:54,587 --> 00:35:56,458
-and go back into the prison...

422
00:35:56,589 --> 00:35:59,461
...and interview her
on camera this time.

423
00:35:59,592 --> 00:36:01,159
<i>You have one minute left.</i>

424
00:36:01,289 --> 00:36:04,118
But either way, I mean,
to me, I see all this

425
00:36:04,249 --> 00:36:07,948
as just more proof
of your innocence.

426
00:36:08,078 --> 00:36:10,864
And so I think we need
to get this to someone.

427
00:36:10,994 --> 00:36:14,607
-Okay. Good.

428
00:36:14,737 --> 00:36:17,175
-Thanks, man. Talk to you soon.

429
00:36:42,156 --> 00:36:43,723
There she is.

430
00:36:49,946 --> 00:36:51,905
-Am I turned on?
You are.

431
00:36:52,035 --> 00:36:54,734
Okay.
-So have you been here
for a while?

432
00:36:54,864 --> 00:36:57,911
Well, we got here about
noon, so about two hours.

433
00:36:58,041 --> 00:37:00,218
-Yeah. Ready?

434
00:37:02,350 --> 00:37:05,701
So how did you meet Andy
in the first place?

435
00:37:05,832 --> 00:37:09,705
Um, Andy gave me a ride one day
during a snowstorm.

436
00:37:09,836 --> 00:37:11,968
That's how I met him.

437
00:37:12,099 --> 00:37:14,841
What happened?
-Um...

438
00:37:14,971 --> 00:37:18,366
If we could, um...

439
00:37:20,368 --> 00:37:22,805
just move from that,
I would appreciate it.

440
00:37:24,024 --> 00:37:27,680
Yeah.

441
00:37:27,810 --> 00:37:31,597
Did you know that Andy
had been to prison
before he met you?

442
00:37:31,727 --> 00:37:34,077
What? Okay.

443
00:37:34,208 --> 00:37:39,126
I never heard that before
until this very moment.

444
00:37:39,257 --> 00:37:42,042
Did you ever suspect
that he was involved
in the Doreen Levesque...?

445
00:37:42,172 --> 00:37:45,698
-No.
-'Cause there are police reports
where you

446
00:37:45,828 --> 00:37:49,223
talk about Andy being
with Doreen Levesque

447
00:37:49,354 --> 00:37:53,271
and even, um, tell the police
that you think Andy killed
Doreen Levesque.

448
00:37:58,711 --> 00:38:01,801
-Do you remember that?
-I may have felt that way.

449
00:38:01,931 --> 00:38:06,675
Um, I think that period of time
involved a lot of, uh,

450
00:38:06,806 --> 00:38:08,938
odd things, a lot
of strange things.

451
00:38:09,069 --> 00:38:13,421
Um... uh...

452
00:38:13,552 --> 00:38:18,861
I did my best to sort out
what was real and what
was scare tactics, I guess.

453
00:38:20,776 --> 00:38:22,735
The specifics and details

454
00:38:22,865 --> 00:38:25,825
about different conversations
and things.

455
00:38:25,955 --> 00:38:29,219
Uh, sorry, it was 40 years ago.

456
00:38:29,350 --> 00:38:33,702
Um, kind of hard
to keep track of.

457
00:38:33,833 --> 00:38:38,968
It looks to me like he
probably killed Doreen Levesque.

458
00:38:39,099 --> 00:38:41,667
Possible. Yes.

459
00:38:41,797 --> 00:38:45,758
The case with Barbara

460
00:38:45,888 --> 00:38:48,978
and Doreen, they are both
extremely similar.

461
00:38:49,109 --> 00:38:51,285
When Barbara was missing,

462
00:38:51,416 --> 00:38:54,897
um, he wanted to know
if I had seen her

463
00:38:55,028 --> 00:38:58,597
and, uh, he insisted
she was missing

464
00:38:58,727 --> 00:39:00,555
and something bad happened
to her.

465
00:39:00,686 --> 00:39:02,992
Then he told me about the dream.

466
00:39:03,123 --> 00:39:06,126
He said she was dead,
she was tied up,

467
00:39:06,256 --> 00:39:07,997
she was bludgeoned to death
with a rock.

468
00:39:08,128 --> 00:39:10,652
He knew everything
before they found her.

469
00:39:10,783 --> 00:39:12,001
Everything.

470
00:39:16,005 --> 00:39:18,181
One of the first times
you had any contact with police

471
00:39:18,312 --> 00:39:21,750
was when Andy took you
and Karen in together, right?

472
00:39:21,881 --> 00:39:26,189
Yes. I know that I thought
we were going for one reason,

473
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:30,106
and it was really
something else.
It was very odd.

474
00:39:30,237 --> 00:39:33,371
It was very odd. And I do not
remember the specifics.

475
00:39:33,501 --> 00:39:35,938
Andy said, "If I'm
arrested, something's going
to happen to Karen."

476
00:39:37,940 --> 00:39:40,247
Really?

477
00:39:40,378 --> 00:39:43,555
What was Andy's
relationship to Karen?

478
00:39:43,685 --> 00:39:46,035
I don't know.

479
00:39:46,166 --> 00:39:48,168
I know that when I was
in the hospital,

480
00:39:48,298 --> 00:39:51,432
um, one of the many times
I was in the hospital,

481
00:39:51,563 --> 00:39:55,218
Andy came in with Karen,
or Karen came in with Andy.

482
00:39:55,349 --> 00:39:59,832
And I was curious how they...
what they were doing together.

483
00:39:59,962 --> 00:40:02,269
And she said, "Oh, he just
gave me a ride."

484
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:07,361
Um, I don't know where they met.
I don't know any of that.

485
00:40:07,492 --> 00:40:10,669
Did you ever confide
in Karen about what had happened
with Andy?

486
00:40:10,799 --> 00:40:13,193
-Yes.
-What was her reaction?

487
00:40:13,323 --> 00:40:15,413
-Um, I really don't recall.
-Yeah.

488
00:40:15,543 --> 00:40:17,937
I know that we, um,
we had a few discussions.

489
00:40:26,380 --> 00:40:30,950
I remember seeing him
in a one-piece pajama set.

490
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:32,691
He was knee high
to a grasshopper.

491
00:40:32,821 --> 00:40:35,476
I talked to him
and he said that

492
00:40:35,607 --> 00:40:40,394
he was on the roof
of Harbor Terrace
and saw you arguing.

493
00:40:40,525 --> 00:40:46,095
You, Karen, and Sonny,
and Carl Davis.

494
00:40:46,226 --> 00:40:49,447
-I have a question,
before you go any further.
-Yeah, yeah.

495
00:40:49,577 --> 00:40:56,149
His age now versus his age
in February of 1980,

496
00:40:56,279 --> 00:40:58,891
is he old enough
to be up on a roof?

497
00:40:59,021 --> 00:41:00,066
He would have been
extremely young.

498
00:41:00,196 --> 00:41:02,416
It didn't happen.

499
00:41:02,547 --> 00:41:04,897
Um, which is why
I just asked you that.

500
00:41:05,027 --> 00:41:06,899
I remember him
being really small.

501
00:41:07,029 --> 00:41:08,770
That's why I asked you
how old he was.

502
00:41:08,901 --> 00:41:11,860
Um, I've never been
on the roof of Harbor Terrace.

503
00:41:11,991 --> 00:41:14,341
So...

504
00:41:14,472 --> 00:41:18,127
I've been to-- I was at Sonny's
at 5 Harbor Terrace.

505
00:41:18,258 --> 00:41:22,349
Uh, across the next building
down, Carol Fletcher
lived there.

506
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:26,048
Somebody sold me weed once
on the second floor
of that building.

507
00:41:26,179 --> 00:41:29,312
And a woman by the name of Gail
lived in the last building.

508
00:41:29,443 --> 00:41:31,489
That's what I know
about Harbor Terrace.

509
00:41:31,619 --> 00:41:35,971
I'm not into closets
and rooftops and basements.

510
00:41:36,102 --> 00:41:39,453
I don't know anything
about that. I'm sorry.

511
00:41:39,584 --> 00:41:42,108
I told a lot of stories
a long time ago.

512
00:41:42,238 --> 00:41:46,765
And I don't tell stories
anymore.

513
00:41:46,895 --> 00:41:49,811
Some people continue
to tell stories.

514
00:41:49,942 --> 00:41:52,031
I don't know why.
I don't know what the cause is.

515
00:41:52,161 --> 00:41:54,512
I don't know if they believe
their own lies. I don't know.

516
00:41:54,642 --> 00:41:58,994
Um, but I do know
that I'm telling the truth.

517
00:41:59,125 --> 00:42:03,346
Um, and I'm sorry if anyone
tries to taint that.

518
00:42:03,477 --> 00:42:06,828
Hm. Andy was actually
arraigned on February 8th.

519
00:42:06,959 --> 00:42:10,266
And he was released hours
before Karen's murder.

520
00:42:10,397 --> 00:42:12,965
I wasn't aware of that neither.

521
00:42:13,095 --> 00:42:15,141
He was arrested.

522
00:42:15,271 --> 00:42:16,446
I'm telling you all this
'cause I'm wondering

523
00:42:16,577 --> 00:42:18,448
if it triggers anything
in your memory?

524
00:42:18,579 --> 00:42:20,538
Like, "Wait a sec.
Now I do remember?"

525
00:42:20,668 --> 00:42:23,192
No, you're actually blowing my
mind with all this information.

526
00:42:23,323 --> 00:42:26,935
Um, I did not...

527
00:42:27,066 --> 00:42:30,025
know any of it and, uh,
wasn't aware of it, certainly.

528
00:42:30,156 --> 00:42:33,463
But I didn't...
never even considered it.

529
00:42:33,594 --> 00:42:35,030
What do you think now?
Do you think it's possible?

530
00:42:35,161 --> 00:42:38,207
I think that, um...

531
00:42:38,338 --> 00:42:41,036
Do I think it's possible?
Anything's possible.

532
00:42:41,167 --> 00:42:42,560
Anything at all is possible.

533
00:42:42,690 --> 00:42:46,868
It seems like
he had so little insight

534
00:42:46,999 --> 00:42:51,046
into what he was doing
that he'd almost traumatized you

535
00:42:51,177 --> 00:42:54,659
to make you feel like you were
complicit in what he was doing.

536
00:42:54,789 --> 00:42:57,052
-Right.
-You know, is that...
you think that's accurate?

537
00:42:57,183 --> 00:42:59,577
Um, I absolutely do.

538
00:42:59,707 --> 00:43:04,364
Before he passed,
he sent me a letter from prison.

539
00:43:04,494 --> 00:43:08,716
And he said he only tried
to make a woman out of me.

540
00:43:08,847 --> 00:43:12,590
I think that for someone
to say that about
an 11-year-old, 12-year-old...

541
00:43:15,157 --> 00:43:18,378
You know, he had a rifle
in the trunk of the car.

542
00:43:18,508 --> 00:43:21,468
And he took it out one day
and shot at my feet.

543
00:43:21,599 --> 00:43:24,819
And initially I remember feeling
like really afraid.

544
00:43:24,950 --> 00:43:26,081
And he was like, "Ah,
I was only kidding."

545
00:43:26,212 --> 00:43:27,953
I've never forgotten that.

546
00:43:28,083 --> 00:43:31,957
Uh, and I believe I told
the police about that.

547
00:43:32,087 --> 00:43:35,264
Um, and it just didn't matter.

548
00:43:35,395 --> 00:43:38,703
None of that mattered.

549
00:43:38,833 --> 00:43:41,401
And now you're telling me,
"Oh, yeah. No,
he does that stuff."

550
00:43:41,531 --> 00:43:43,272
What?

551
00:43:43,403 --> 00:43:45,840
That's crazy.

552
00:43:45,971 --> 00:43:48,103
Why didn't he ever kill me?

553
00:43:48,234 --> 00:43:50,323
That is so weird.

554
00:43:50,453 --> 00:43:52,238
When was the last time
you saw Karen?

555
00:43:52,368 --> 00:43:56,111
February 8th.

556
00:43:56,242 --> 00:44:01,900
Uh... we parted ways
after leaving her son's

557
00:44:02,030 --> 00:44:04,424
foster parents' house.

558
00:44:04,554 --> 00:44:06,948
And that was it?
-Never saw her again.

559
00:44:07,079 --> 00:44:10,038
Yeah.
-Because I never saw her
again...

560
00:44:10,169 --> 00:44:12,998
after going to Sonny's house,

561
00:44:13,128 --> 00:44:16,131
that still haunts me.

562
00:44:16,262 --> 00:44:18,046
A lot.

563
00:44:39,328 --> 00:44:42,505
That's what's so
complicated about this entire,

564
00:44:42,636 --> 00:44:46,074
you know, history of the
Fall River satanic cult murders.

565
00:44:46,205 --> 00:44:48,686
I mean,
who are you gonna believe?

566
00:44:54,387 --> 00:44:58,130
There may be things
that I don't wanna talk about,
but that's for personal reasons.

567
00:44:58,260 --> 00:45:01,046
Not because I have anything
really to hide.

568
00:45:01,176 --> 00:45:04,919
Um... but I...

569
00:45:05,050 --> 00:45:07,052
I've been telling the truth
for a long time.

570
00:45:07,182 --> 00:45:08,836
It's not sensational.

571
00:45:14,189 --> 00:45:17,715
You know, they let
this girl, Robin Murphy,

572
00:45:17,845 --> 00:45:21,501
manipulate them
for her own gain.
You know what I mean?

573
00:45:21,631 --> 00:45:25,244
Like I said, and I want that
story out there that,
you know what I mean?

574
00:45:25,374 --> 00:45:29,422
By her own volition, she
admitted that she lied
and she made this stuff all up.

575
00:45:36,385 --> 00:45:39,258
The DA acquiesced

576
00:45:39,388 --> 00:45:42,304
to the need for public closure

577
00:45:42,435 --> 00:45:45,307
and didn't necessarily have the
interest of justice at heart.

578
00:45:49,703 --> 00:45:52,488
When we find that injustice
has been done,

579
00:45:52,619 --> 00:45:55,361
somebody's been wrongly accused,
I think we have
to commit ourselves

580
00:45:55,491 --> 00:45:58,103
a thousand percent to trying
to right that wrong,

581
00:45:58,233 --> 00:46:00,975
to undo the damage,
to restore reputations,

582
00:46:01,106 --> 00:46:03,456
to make things whole again.

583
00:47:01,819 --> 00:47:06,867
At the present moment, uh,
we have 43 domestic cases
of the coronavirus.

584
00:47:06,998 --> 00:47:10,305
Six Americans have lost their
life to the coronavirus.

585
00:47:10,436 --> 00:47:13,787
And on behalf of the president
and all of the American people,

586
00:47:13,918 --> 00:47:15,615
we extend our
deepest condolences.

587
00:47:15,745 --> 00:47:18,313
Because of the president's
strong leadership

588
00:47:18,444 --> 00:47:20,838
and all of the hard work that
our public health professionals
have done

589
00:47:20,968 --> 00:47:24,015
at the local, the state,
the federal level,

590
00:47:24,145 --> 00:47:28,846
the immediate risk to any
individual American has been
and does continue to be low.

591
00:47:40,466 --> 00:47:44,470
What's going on?
Are you locked down or...?

592
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,342
<i>Yeah,
they only let us out
for a half hour a day.</i>

593
00:47:47,473 --> 00:47:49,475
<i>You know, so... yeah.</i>

594
00:48:23,161 --> 00:48:29,515
We've already
seen 126,000 deaths with
infection rates rising rapidly.

595
00:48:44,922 --> 00:48:48,055
It's going to disappear.
One day, it's like a miracle.
It will disappear.

596
00:49:45,025 --> 00:49:50,465
So did Carl Drew
belong in prison for what he did
as a pimp? Absolutely.

597
00:49:50,596 --> 00:49:54,600
Does he belong in prison
on the word of a liar
with no physical evidence?

598
00:49:54,730 --> 00:49:58,952
Maybe. But at the very least,
we should be giving him
an opportunity

599
00:49:59,083 --> 00:50:03,696
to be retried with a fair trial
and an adequate counsel.

600
00:50:06,525 --> 00:50:08,962
No question in my mind
that he is not innocent.

601
00:50:09,093 --> 00:50:11,356
He committed the crimes.
He was present.

602
00:50:11,486 --> 00:50:12,705
He committed the crimes.

603
00:50:12,835 --> 00:50:14,576
I believe justice was served.

604
00:50:45,868 --> 00:50:49,568
My first impression
was that the case, um,

605
00:50:49,698 --> 00:50:51,613
at trial appeared to be a mess.

606
00:50:53,746 --> 00:50:55,922
And then as we looked
into more evidence,

607
00:50:56,053 --> 00:50:59,665
it seemed to raise a lot of red
flags and a lot of questions.

608
00:50:59,795 --> 00:51:03,930
I think that the evidence
that Carl has uncovered

609
00:51:04,061 --> 00:51:07,325
over the past 30-plus years

610
00:51:07,455 --> 00:51:11,503
and that this documentary
has uncovered,

611
00:51:11,633 --> 00:51:14,897
uh, is compelling
and significant evidence

612
00:51:15,028 --> 00:51:17,465
that, um, Carl did not
commit this crime.

613
00:51:20,816 --> 00:51:23,515
I think that it's
worthy to take a look
at this case

614
00:51:23,645 --> 00:51:27,736
and to raise some real questions
about how something like this

615
00:51:27,867 --> 00:51:29,782
could be prosecuted
in the manner that it was.

616
00:51:29,912 --> 00:51:33,438
Legally, Carl is
in a tricky situation

617
00:51:33,568 --> 00:51:37,790
because he has to find more
evidence and new evidence

618
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:41,359
and evidence that's different
than what was presented
in the motion in 2004.

619
00:51:44,362 --> 00:51:47,669
But I think that there is
evidence that has been uncovered
that is different.

620
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:53,545
Robin Murphy's statement
that she also, uh,

621
00:51:53,675 --> 00:51:55,895
was told on the day of trial
by the prosecutor

622
00:51:56,025 --> 00:51:58,637
that she needed to testify
to what they agreed to,

623
00:51:58,767 --> 00:52:00,726
even after she was trying
to tell them that she lied,

624
00:52:00,856 --> 00:52:03,424
I think is very compelling.

625
00:52:32,801 --> 00:52:36,196
I'm concerned about getting
a judge to take it seriously.

626
00:52:36,327 --> 00:52:40,157
Um, being that judge had already
discredited Robin Murphy.

627
00:52:40,287 --> 00:52:44,291
But on top of that, from the...
what this documentary
has uncovered,

628
00:52:44,422 --> 00:52:50,515
um, is that in the police's
investigation into
the Barbara Raposa murder,

629
00:52:50,645 --> 00:52:54,649
against Andre Maltais,

630
00:52:54,780 --> 00:52:57,957
the police had arrested
Andre Maltais in the past,

631
00:52:58,087 --> 00:53:03,919
um, for committing crimes
with very similar MO,

632
00:53:04,050 --> 00:53:08,576
very similar method to the way
that Doreen Levesque was killed.

633
00:53:12,885 --> 00:53:17,063
This information about Andre
Maltais was never turned over
to Carl or his defense team.

634
00:53:17,194 --> 00:53:21,763
Before a person is convicted,
the defense is supposed
to receive all evidence

635
00:53:21,894 --> 00:53:24,853
that is both against them
and evidence that may show that
they didn't commit the crime.

636
00:53:24,984 --> 00:53:27,900
And when evidence
isn't turned over,

637
00:53:28,030 --> 00:53:33,558
the law, uh, essentially
supports Carl saying,

638
00:53:33,688 --> 00:53:35,516
"How was I supposed to know
that it existed?"

639
00:53:38,693 --> 00:53:41,043
Carl Drew, I think it's hard
for him to dispute

640
00:53:41,174 --> 00:53:44,917
that he was a pimp
who prostituted little girls.

641
00:53:45,047 --> 00:53:48,747
However, the people who belong
in prison have to be put there
in the correct way

642
00:53:48,877 --> 00:53:49,878
according to the rule of law.

643
00:53:52,316 --> 00:53:54,013
To overturn
his conviction,

644
00:53:54,143 --> 00:53:56,537
I have to show that all
of this information

645
00:53:56,668 --> 00:53:59,366
might have made a difference
to the jury.

646
00:53:59,497 --> 00:54:02,282
That it would have been
a significant factor
as they tried to determine,

647
00:54:02,413 --> 00:54:05,111
"Did Carl commit this crime
or did someone else?"

648
00:54:05,242 --> 00:54:11,770
One big thing that Carl was
lacking was significant evidence
of a third-party culprit,

649
00:54:11,900 --> 00:54:14,294
of the other person who
may have actually killed her.

650
00:54:14,425 --> 00:54:17,993
And it seems clear from what
the documentary has uncovered

651
00:54:18,124 --> 00:54:20,082
that this information
about Andre Maltais,

652
00:54:20,213 --> 00:54:23,782
that might be a basis
to get Carl back into court

653
00:54:23,912 --> 00:54:25,523
and to overturn his convictions.

654
00:54:31,659 --> 00:54:34,836
We need to file a motion
for a new trial.

655
00:55:27,498 --> 00:55:30,936
Robin's history of
trauma and also going to prison

656
00:55:31,066 --> 00:55:36,768
at 17, 18 years old
and serving most of her life
in confinement,

657
00:55:36,898 --> 00:55:39,771
you know, is traumatic
in and of itself.

658
00:55:39,901 --> 00:55:43,818
So it's trauma after trauma
after trauma
and a coping mechanism,

659
00:55:43,949 --> 00:55:48,475
you know, to deal
with all of that, you know,

660
00:55:48,606 --> 00:55:52,523
I think she doesn't trust people
so therefore she comes off
as untrustworthy,

661
00:55:52,653 --> 00:55:54,307
um, to the parole board.

662
00:55:54,438 --> 00:55:58,529
You've woven this web
of deceit

663
00:55:58,659 --> 00:56:02,620
and storytelling that...

664
00:56:02,750 --> 00:56:08,147
I can't make heads or tails
of what...

665
00:56:08,277 --> 00:56:13,021
even the surface
of the truth is in this case.

666
00:56:31,257 --> 00:56:33,781
I think it's evident
that she was an abuse victim,

667
00:56:33,912 --> 00:56:36,044
um, by multiple people.

668
00:56:36,175 --> 00:56:38,177
You know, she may
have had street smarts,

669
00:56:38,307 --> 00:56:41,136
but that doesn't mean
that she had common sense

670
00:56:41,267 --> 00:56:44,270
or that she had the emotional
maturity to deal with, you know,

671
00:56:44,401 --> 00:56:46,403
what was going on around her.

672
00:56:49,275 --> 00:56:51,712
I think she deserves re-parole.

673
00:57:05,030 --> 00:57:06,988
Here's what's so sad
about this case.

674
00:57:07,119 --> 00:57:09,904
What you absolutely know
for a fact

675
00:57:10,035 --> 00:57:13,691
is that you had these men
who were victimizing
teenage girls.

676
00:57:15,388 --> 00:57:17,999
I mean, that alone should have

677
00:57:18,130 --> 00:57:22,395
provoked some
sort of investigation.

678
00:57:22,526 --> 00:57:25,746
These were all girls that should
have been offered some sort
of protection.

679
00:57:44,025 --> 00:57:47,289
I think what you're
doing and what your
team's doing here

680
00:57:47,420 --> 00:57:51,424
is the only way,
is to shed some light onto it.

681
00:57:51,555 --> 00:57:54,427
Maybe, you know,
there's some people

682
00:57:54,558 --> 00:57:57,169
who were former
district attorneys

683
00:57:57,299 --> 00:58:01,260
who, you know,
feel bad about it.

684
00:58:01,390 --> 00:58:04,219
Maybe there are some people
who worked on the case

685
00:58:04,350 --> 00:58:06,439
who would like
to make things right.

686
00:58:06,570 --> 00:58:10,138
And if 100,000 people or so
see this,

687
00:58:10,269 --> 00:58:13,272
or people in Fall River realize
that, hey,

688
00:58:13,402 --> 00:58:16,144
"I think it warrants an
investigation into it.

689
00:58:16,275 --> 00:58:18,407
Go ahead, let's test the shit.
Why not?"

690
00:58:18,538 --> 00:58:22,107
Why not look up the cases,
do due diligence?

691
00:58:22,237 --> 00:58:26,633
And, uh, just get to the truth
of the situation.