1 00:00:36,775 --> 00:00:39,169 Fall River... 2 00:00:40,388 --> 00:00:42,651 it was a rough place. 3 00:00:42,781 --> 00:00:44,783 There were so many girls working the streets of Fall River at that time. 4 00:00:44,914 --> 00:00:48,526 There were traffic jams on Friday and Saturday evenings. 5 00:00:48,657 --> 00:00:52,704 Doreen at age 17, she should be in high school. 6 00:00:52,835 --> 00:00:54,489 Not working the streets. 7 00:00:56,491 --> 00:00:59,450 The brutality of her murder is chilling. 8 00:00:59,581 --> 00:01:04,368 She was face down. She was just about completely nude. 9 00:01:04,499 --> 00:01:09,547 She was prostituting in Fall River. 10 00:01:09,678 --> 00:01:12,681 And the investigation sort of went in that direction. 11 00:01:12,811 --> 00:01:16,685 That's apparently when she ran into Carl Drew. 12 00:01:16,815 --> 00:01:18,730 Carl Drew was known as someone 13 00:01:18,861 --> 00:01:23,692 who was on the street daily, was a pimp. 14 00:01:23,822 --> 00:01:26,521 For some reason, I had a bad reputation out there 15 00:01:26,651 --> 00:01:30,525 that people knew not to... not to mess with anything that was mine. 16 00:01:31,917 --> 00:01:34,224 He drugged those girls up. 17 00:01:35,834 --> 00:01:38,794 Carl Drew, did he know me? No. 18 00:01:38,924 --> 00:01:42,232 Did I know who he was? Yes. 19 00:01:42,363 --> 00:01:49,326 Carl Drew used Satanism as a way to control... to control the women on the street. 20 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:55,637 They brought her in a room and they tied her up and they dripped blood all over here. 21 00:01:55,767 --> 00:01:58,683 They had big crosses hung from the ceiling upside down and everything. 22 00:01:58,814 --> 00:02:02,818 Karen was really upset with Carl Drew. 23 00:02:02,948 --> 00:02:07,257 She called him the devil. She said that he was going to kill her. 24 00:02:10,782 --> 00:02:15,657 The police came to my mother's house and they questioned me. 25 00:02:15,787 --> 00:02:17,267 'Cause Karen was missing. 26 00:02:19,965 --> 00:02:24,144 And at that point we knew she probably was not missing. 27 00:02:26,885 --> 00:02:30,976 Robin was caught in the middle of all this. 28 00:02:31,107 --> 00:02:34,154 Robin was only 17 years old at the time. 29 00:02:36,504 --> 00:02:38,680 Robin was also indicted for murder. 30 00:02:38,810 --> 00:02:40,943 She turned state's evidence. 31 00:02:41,073 --> 00:02:42,988 It has also been revealed that her murder 32 00:02:43,119 --> 00:02:46,905 was a ritualistic killing tied to a satanic cult 33 00:02:47,036 --> 00:02:50,648 that exists among prostitutes and pimps in Fall River. 34 00:02:52,607 --> 00:02:55,697 Robin says that Carl Drew, the son of Satan, 35 00:02:55,827 --> 00:03:01,572 told them that they had to participate because they were offering her soul to Satan. 36 00:03:04,053 --> 00:03:08,449 The state police dogs were hitting on the blood where she was killed 37 00:03:08,579 --> 00:03:10,320 where her throat was cut and she bled out. 38 00:03:22,767 --> 00:03:26,510 Carl Drew had nothing to do with these murders. 39 00:03:27,990 --> 00:03:29,818 Everybody knows it. 40 00:03:29,948 --> 00:03:31,689 Everybody. 41 00:04:30,879 --> 00:04:33,621 They came to my house and they said that 42 00:04:33,751 --> 00:04:35,492 I was being arrested for, uh, 43 00:04:35,623 --> 00:04:37,842 parole violation for whereabouts unknown. 44 00:04:37,973 --> 00:04:40,715 They didn't handcuff me or nothing. 45 00:04:40,845 --> 00:04:44,458 And they had me walking down the stairs in front of them. 46 00:04:44,588 --> 00:04:45,807 I knew something was up. 47 00:04:45,937 --> 00:04:48,766 Back then, you had 15 days to wait 48 00:04:48,897 --> 00:04:52,466 before you got a hearing for a parole violation and... 49 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:59,777 And on the 15th day, they tell me I was going to court. 50 00:04:59,908 --> 00:05:01,997 Grand jury murder indictments were handed down today 51 00:05:02,127 --> 00:05:05,000 for the death of 20-year-old Karen Marsden. 52 00:05:05,130 --> 00:05:08,917 The next thing I know, I'm being accused of murder. 53 00:05:24,846 --> 00:05:27,109 Hello, this is a prepaid collect call from... 54 00:05:28,850 --> 00:05:31,592 An inmate at 55 00:05:31,722 --> 00:05:34,769 Massachusetts Department of Corrections. 56 00:05:57,966 --> 00:05:59,968 Carl Drew was initially charged with two murders. 57 00:06:00,098 --> 00:06:05,234 That of Doreen Levesque and Karen Marsden. 58 00:06:05,365 --> 00:06:11,196 But the prosecution ultimately only decided to take one of the cases to trial. 59 00:06:11,327 --> 00:06:15,679 And that was the murder of Karen Marsden. 60 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:22,556 The investigators and the prosecution had a weak case. 61 00:06:22,686 --> 00:06:24,079 They had a series of murders, 62 00:06:24,209 --> 00:06:26,864 they didn't really have any forensic evidence 63 00:06:26,995 --> 00:06:30,868 that tied Carl Drew to either of these murders. 64 00:06:30,999 --> 00:06:34,829 And they decided that the Levesque case was so weak 65 00:06:34,959 --> 00:06:39,137 that they would rather put that into evidence against him 66 00:06:39,268 --> 00:06:41,879 without having to go through the process of trying him 67 00:06:42,010 --> 00:06:45,753 and maybe having him acquitted on that case. 68 00:06:45,883 --> 00:06:48,886 They tried me for the Karen Marsden case. 69 00:06:49,017 --> 00:06:54,109 They used the Doreen Levesque case as a motive for me killing Karen Marsden. 70 00:06:54,239 --> 00:06:57,025 They're sitting there saying the reason I killed Karen Marsden 71 00:06:57,155 --> 00:06:59,854 is 'cause she witnessed me killing Doreen Levesque. 72 00:07:04,119 --> 00:07:07,688 Unfortunately, there is this prior bad acts doctrine 73 00:07:07,818 --> 00:07:11,256 which allows evidence of prior bad acts 74 00:07:11,387 --> 00:07:17,001 to come into evidence simply if it shows motive or a consistent course of conduct. 75 00:07:17,132 --> 00:07:21,876 Even though there's not been a trial on those prior charges. 76 00:07:28,317 --> 00:07:32,147 The thinking was that Doreen was killed because 77 00:07:32,277 --> 00:07:35,019 she wouldn't work for Carl Drew. 78 00:07:35,150 --> 00:07:37,805 And no one tells Carl Drew, "No." 79 00:07:44,942 --> 00:07:47,771 Doreen Levesque, she was a nice girl and I would say... 80 00:07:47,902 --> 00:07:49,817 You wouldn't think that she was underage. 81 00:07:49,947 --> 00:07:52,863 But then I found out that she was only 17 at the time. 82 00:07:52,994 --> 00:07:55,475 And I wouldn't have nothing to do with her. 83 00:07:57,912 --> 00:07:59,696 That's not true. 84 00:07:59,827 --> 00:08:01,306 He knew Doreen, she was working the street. 85 00:08:01,437 --> 00:08:04,484 He had intimidated her, he told her not to work the street. 86 00:08:06,311 --> 00:08:09,750 We had talked to so many young ladies on the street. 87 00:08:11,055 --> 00:08:12,796 And we had some great informants. 88 00:08:16,017 --> 00:08:19,107 Alan Silvia pulled me in the police department and, you know what I mean, 89 00:08:19,237 --> 00:08:22,284 asked me if I knew anything about Doreen Levesque and all that stuff. 90 00:08:22,414 --> 00:08:26,593 And at first, I didn't... I didn't even realize who she was. 91 00:08:33,251 --> 00:08:36,341 Spent very little time questioning Carl Drew. 92 00:08:36,472 --> 00:08:40,824 But he also wasn't someone that we went to on the street to talk to. 93 00:08:43,566 --> 00:08:46,003 Well, that night that she was supposed to have been killed, 94 00:08:46,134 --> 00:08:48,745 I was at my stepmother, who was getting married. 95 00:08:48,876 --> 00:08:50,268 And it was like a gay wedding. 96 00:08:50,399 --> 00:08:52,227 And I was there at the wedding. 97 00:08:52,357 --> 00:08:55,752 I had photos of me there. 98 00:08:58,146 --> 00:09:01,192 There were many aspects that corroborated 99 00:09:01,323 --> 00:09:04,065 Carl's innocence story 100 00:09:04,195 --> 00:09:09,157 that had been omitted or trampled under at trial. 101 00:09:09,287 --> 00:09:14,815 Carl, uh, had a grossly inexperienced attorney defending him. 102 00:09:17,426 --> 00:09:21,430 John Birkness was assigned to Carl for the murder trial. 103 00:09:21,561 --> 00:09:24,955 He was a nice man, but I don't think he should have been given that assignment. 104 00:09:46,194 --> 00:09:50,067 John Birkness, he had never worked a murder case before. 105 00:09:50,198 --> 00:09:53,114 And after Carl's case, he never worked another one again. 106 00:09:54,289 --> 00:09:58,815 So, you know, right from the get-go, he pretty much just 107 00:09:58,946 --> 00:10:01,078 got railroaded every which way. 108 00:10:06,388 --> 00:10:08,216 There were these four people 109 00:10:08,346 --> 00:10:10,871 who claimed to have witnessed Karen Marsden's murder. 110 00:10:11,001 --> 00:10:15,353 Robin Murphy, Carol Fletcher, 111 00:10:15,484 --> 00:10:19,314 Willie Smith, and Carl Davis. 112 00:10:19,444 --> 00:10:22,752 The two men were charged and the two women were given immunity deals 113 00:10:22,883 --> 00:10:25,146 to testify against the men. 114 00:10:25,276 --> 00:10:27,061 They were all connected. They all knew each other. 115 00:10:27,191 --> 00:10:28,410 They were all working the streets. 116 00:10:35,896 --> 00:10:37,637 ...and all that shit. 117 00:11:00,355 --> 00:11:04,141 Robin and Carol Fletcher. 118 00:11:04,272 --> 00:11:07,101 They were the witnesses that were at the scene. 119 00:11:07,231 --> 00:11:12,280 The deal with Carol Fletcher was an easy one for the prosecution to make. 120 00:11:12,410 --> 00:11:16,153 Because she was there, she witnessed it, 121 00:11:16,284 --> 00:11:19,461 but she was not involved with the actual killing. 122 00:11:19,591 --> 00:11:23,552 She was one of these little girls, what they call a barfly. 123 00:11:23,683 --> 00:11:29,166 You know what I mean? She would do tricks for draft beers and all that stuff. 124 00:11:29,297 --> 00:11:33,780 Robin, that was a little bit more problematic. 125 00:11:45,530 --> 00:11:49,578 We first heard about Robin Murphy from the police. 126 00:11:49,709 --> 00:11:53,930 And it was a very different person that they trotted 127 00:11:54,061 --> 00:11:56,367 into court some months later. 128 00:11:56,498 --> 00:12:01,459 She came in with her little Peter Pan collar and a gold cross on her neck. 129 00:12:01,590 --> 00:12:04,854 And she looked like butter wouldn't melt in her mouth. 130 00:12:04,985 --> 00:12:10,642 Robin looked like the girl next door when she was cleaned up. 131 00:12:10,773 --> 00:12:15,082 So putting her before a jury was better for the prosecution. 132 00:12:16,779 --> 00:12:22,219 The DA's office gave her a deal for her star testimony. 133 00:12:22,350 --> 00:12:24,569 She was given second-degree murder. 134 00:12:24,700 --> 00:12:29,487 In Massachusetts, second-degree murder, there's eligibility for parole. 135 00:12:29,618 --> 00:12:33,883 First-degree murder, there's no eligibility for parole. 136 00:12:45,590 --> 00:12:48,985 So if you could stand, Miss Murphy, as well as anyone here in the room 137 00:12:49,116 --> 00:12:50,334 who is here to give testimony, 138 00:12:50,465 --> 00:12:52,075 stand and raise their right hand. 139 00:13:12,530 --> 00:13:16,621 Robin Murphy and Karen Marsden were pinpointed 140 00:13:16,752 --> 00:13:21,191 at the home of the foster parents of Karen Marsden's child 141 00:13:21,322 --> 00:13:24,934 between 7:45 and 8:30 at night. 142 00:13:26,588 --> 00:13:30,461 Robin Murphy showed up at her home in Fall River 143 00:13:30,592 --> 00:13:33,029 shortly before 10:00. 144 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:37,904 So that leaves a less than two hour window. 145 00:13:40,428 --> 00:13:44,171 They allegedly hitchhiked to downtown Fall River, 146 00:13:44,301 --> 00:13:47,087 which would have taken at least 20 minutes. 147 00:13:50,264 --> 00:13:53,528 They were threatened by Carl and several people 148 00:13:53,658 --> 00:13:57,488 who allegedly were involved in the murder scene. 149 00:13:57,619 --> 00:13:59,360 They drove, uh, 150 00:13:59,490 --> 00:14:04,713 a half an hour from Fall River to this woods. 151 00:14:04,844 --> 00:14:07,411 That's where they dragged her out of the car, 152 00:14:07,542 --> 00:14:10,632 ripped her hair out, punched her in the face, 153 00:14:10,762 --> 00:14:12,852 ripped all her clothes off of her. 154 00:14:17,682 --> 00:14:21,556 Robin Murphy actually killed Karen Marsden. 155 00:14:21,686 --> 00:14:26,517 But she says that she did it because Carl Drew, 156 00:14:26,648 --> 00:14:29,956 who was present, made her do it and she feared for her life. 157 00:14:33,742 --> 00:14:36,571 She probably told the truth whenever she could. 158 00:14:36,701 --> 00:14:39,922 But if it wasn't convenient, then we'd tell a lie. 159 00:14:46,450 --> 00:14:49,540 I think you have to find that she was at the scene 160 00:14:49,671 --> 00:14:53,675 and that she knows a good deal more than she's telling 161 00:14:53,805 --> 00:14:57,679 because lawyers are asking very specific questions 162 00:14:57,809 --> 00:15:00,900 to get at the information they want. 163 00:15:05,469 --> 00:15:09,299 That doesn't necessarily paint an honest picture of what happened. 164 00:15:19,701 --> 00:15:23,487 They drove half an hour from Fall River to this woods, 165 00:15:23,618 --> 00:15:25,141 half an hour each way. 166 00:15:25,272 --> 00:15:28,101 And they spent 60 to 90 minutes 167 00:15:28,231 --> 00:15:30,494 doing this ritual murder, 168 00:15:30,625 --> 00:15:32,757 after which they claimed they burned the body, 169 00:15:32,888 --> 00:15:35,630 and it took a long time for that body to burn. 170 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:39,373 So that's about three to four hours worth of activity 171 00:15:39,503 --> 00:15:42,115 that couldn't have taken place in the two hours. 172 00:15:46,336 --> 00:15:49,949 Do I think she was a liar? 173 00:15:51,428 --> 00:15:53,256 Yes. 174 00:15:59,306 --> 00:16:00,785 They're saying that I did this. 175 00:16:00,916 --> 00:16:06,313 That I cut the poor girl's head off and all that stuff. 176 00:16:06,443 --> 00:16:10,099 The easiest story to remember is the truth. 177 00:16:10,230 --> 00:16:11,753 When you make up a story, 178 00:16:11,883 --> 00:16:15,235 you have no memory to go back to when you retell that story. 179 00:16:15,365 --> 00:16:18,586 If the first story's made up, 180 00:16:18,716 --> 00:16:21,328 every single time you tell that story you're gonna screw it up. 181 00:16:21,458 --> 00:16:22,764 You're gonna tell it differently. 182 00:16:22,894 --> 00:16:25,767 Every time Robin told the story, 183 00:16:25,897 --> 00:16:29,727 there would be some little differences, there'd be changes in the story. 184 00:16:29,858 --> 00:16:33,905 And as a result, that complicated the investigation. 185 00:16:34,036 --> 00:16:37,605 And that could have posed a really serious, serious problem 186 00:16:37,735 --> 00:16:39,781 for the prosecution. 187 00:16:39,911 --> 00:16:46,005 That's why Carol became such a really key element in the case. 188 00:16:56,841 --> 00:17:00,628 Carol was a friend of Robin Murphy and Karen. 189 00:17:00,758 --> 00:17:02,282 She was another prostitute. 190 00:17:08,331 --> 00:17:10,203 We spoke to her several times. 191 00:17:10,333 --> 00:17:13,336 And she, you know, 192 00:17:13,467 --> 00:17:16,600 did admit that she had been there, 193 00:17:16,731 --> 00:17:21,475 that it was her rental car that they had used to drive Karen down to Westport. 194 00:17:21,605 --> 00:17:25,087 And she told us the whole story of when it happened. 195 00:17:26,132 --> 00:17:28,395 There wasn't any cross-examination 196 00:17:28,525 --> 00:17:30,919 that you would expect a real trained attorney... 197 00:17:31,050 --> 00:17:32,442 This is a murder case now. 198 00:17:34,488 --> 00:17:37,317 We did get the rental car that Carol 199 00:17:37,447 --> 00:17:39,580 had driven with that group that night 200 00:17:39,710 --> 00:17:42,887 and had it tested by the state police crime lab for blood. 201 00:17:43,018 --> 00:17:45,194 Never found any blood. 202 00:17:48,893 --> 00:17:53,724 Carl's alibi was that he had been in a particular bar 203 00:17:53,855 --> 00:17:58,599 and had spoken with a particular bartender that he knew well 204 00:17:58,729 --> 00:18:02,342 and several other associates in that bar on that night... 205 00:18:04,866 --> 00:18:08,739 and had several people who could corroborate each other. 206 00:18:08,870 --> 00:18:12,352 On February 8th, a Friday, 207 00:18:12,482 --> 00:18:14,658 and Friday nights is one of the busiest nights, 208 00:18:14,789 --> 00:18:17,270 we were on the pier. 209 00:18:18,836 --> 00:18:22,536 The lawyer got money to hire an investigator 210 00:18:22,666 --> 00:18:27,410 and tasked the investigator to go out and interview the alibi witnesses. 211 00:18:28,846 --> 00:18:33,677 And what happened was that Birkness didn't bother 212 00:18:33,808 --> 00:18:35,592 to talk to the investigator 213 00:18:35,723 --> 00:18:38,378 until he checked in with him a year later. 214 00:18:41,207 --> 00:18:46,690 And when he checked in with him, he found out that the investigator had died. 215 00:18:46,821 --> 00:18:48,823 So he hired a new investigator 216 00:18:48,953 --> 00:18:50,825 to go back to these witnesses and say to them, 217 00:18:50,955 --> 00:18:54,872 "Do you remember a year ago, when Carl Drew was with you 218 00:18:55,003 --> 00:19:00,313 between this time and that time on the night of the murder?" 219 00:19:00,443 --> 00:19:02,402 I mean, good luck. 220 00:19:09,278 --> 00:19:14,631 I guess what you could say would probably amount to forensic evidence back then 221 00:19:14,762 --> 00:19:18,809 is there was a ring on the finger of Karen Marsden. 222 00:19:18,940 --> 00:19:25,686 And this girl named Leah Johnson was given the ring by Carl Drew. 223 00:19:25,816 --> 00:19:28,776 Leah Johnson was Carl Drew's girlfriend. 224 00:19:28,906 --> 00:19:33,694 And she had some of the possessions, at least a ring, 225 00:19:33,824 --> 00:19:36,697 for sure, of Karen Marsden. 226 00:19:36,827 --> 00:19:39,743 And she received it the same day, 227 00:19:39,874 --> 00:19:43,182 the day after Karen's death. 228 00:19:57,848 --> 00:19:59,415 Well, we... 229 00:20:22,395 --> 00:20:26,399 And she brought the ring to the state police and said, "Carl Drew gave me this ring. 230 00:20:26,529 --> 00:20:27,965 I think it's Karen's." 231 00:20:28,096 --> 00:20:30,751 And then Karen's mother went on the stand and said, 232 00:20:30,881 --> 00:20:32,622 "Yeah, that's my daughter's ring." 233 00:20:35,756 --> 00:20:38,106 So how did Carl get the ring 234 00:20:38,237 --> 00:20:42,328 when Karen was wearing it the night that she was murdered? 235 00:20:43,807 --> 00:20:47,550 The ring placed Carl at the scene of the homicide. 236 00:20:49,509 --> 00:20:50,901 That's pretty solid. 237 00:20:51,032 --> 00:20:52,468 If it's in fact true. 238 00:20:52,599 --> 00:20:54,818 Leah Johnson, 239 00:20:54,949 --> 00:20:57,908 also alleged to be a confession witness, 240 00:20:58,039 --> 00:20:59,997 who Carl Drew allegedly described 241 00:21:00,128 --> 00:21:02,826 a dream that he had in which... 242 00:21:02,957 --> 00:21:09,398 there was a satanic murder ritual in the woods of, uh, the victim, but only as a dream. 243 00:21:17,841 --> 00:21:21,541 But none of this satanic ritual evidence 244 00:21:21,671 --> 00:21:24,021 had to do with Karen Marsden's murder. 245 00:21:24,152 --> 00:21:26,372 It was just sort of coloring. 246 00:21:43,302 --> 00:21:49,656 There is long been a tendency for generations to freak out 247 00:21:49,786 --> 00:21:53,573 about the fact that we are all in moral decline. 248 00:21:53,703 --> 00:21:55,923 I'd like to begin with a fact. 249 00:21:56,053 --> 00:21:59,405 A simple yet shocking fact. 250 00:22:01,015 --> 00:22:05,628 That a moral decay is spreading through our country... 251 00:22:05,759 --> 00:22:07,935 The world's going straight to hell in a handbasket. 252 00:22:08,065 --> 00:22:12,026 And they say that we have a moral decline and that the families are breaking up 253 00:22:12,156 --> 00:22:16,639 and there's a drug plague and we're going to lose. 254 00:22:18,424 --> 00:22:23,777 The satanic panic was this time. It was the 1980s to about 1995 255 00:22:23,907 --> 00:22:28,825 where there was a moral panic happening all across the United States. 256 00:22:28,956 --> 00:22:32,916 And they were kicking over every rock looking for the devil. 257 00:22:33,047 --> 00:22:35,789 Alpine police say five young Alpine men 258 00:22:35,919 --> 00:22:38,705 are accused of conducting satanic rituals. 259 00:22:38,835 --> 00:22:42,143 Friday morning, we had a call at the Catholic church. 260 00:22:42,273 --> 00:22:45,015 When I arrived, I noticed two pentagrams 261 00:22:45,146 --> 00:22:47,801 and an inverted cross. 262 00:22:53,850 --> 00:22:57,114 The Puritans absolutely believed in a material Satan 263 00:22:57,245 --> 00:22:58,942 who worked on people's bodies. 264 00:22:59,073 --> 00:23:01,815 But that Satan goes away for, like, 200 years 265 00:23:01,945 --> 00:23:03,947 and then shows back up in the 1980s. 266 00:23:06,123 --> 00:23:09,953 Police take away boxes full of bones 267 00:23:10,084 --> 00:23:12,913 and satanic paraphernalia. 268 00:23:13,043 --> 00:23:19,180 The root to the satanic panic actually leaned back into the mid-20th century. 269 00:23:19,310 --> 00:23:26,143 That was the time when we were sort of head-to-head against Russia. 270 00:23:26,274 --> 00:23:30,278 In this Cold War, perhaps even more than in a normal war, 271 00:23:30,409 --> 00:23:33,890 understanding the communist enemy is terribly important. 272 00:23:38,895 --> 00:23:41,985 They're traitors to America. Why don't we do something about it! 273 00:23:42,116 --> 00:23:44,901 They are enemies! They are not Americans! 274 00:23:45,032 --> 00:23:50,037 A way for the United States to position itself as morally superior 275 00:23:50,167 --> 00:23:52,692 was to align ourselves with God. 276 00:23:52,822 --> 00:23:55,782 Our Constitution was written by men 277 00:23:55,912 --> 00:23:58,306 who put their trust in God. 278 00:23:58,437 --> 00:24:03,746 Christian equals us versus everybody else who doesn't believe in God is evil. 279 00:24:07,968 --> 00:24:10,753 So the USSR became satanic. 280 00:24:10,884 --> 00:24:14,061 And we began to incorporate "in God we trust" 281 00:24:14,191 --> 00:24:16,759 into the national conversation. 282 00:24:16,890 --> 00:24:19,719 We saw televangelists like Billy Graham 283 00:24:19,849 --> 00:24:21,982 waltzing in and out of the White House. 284 00:24:22,112 --> 00:24:25,072 To lead America to the dawning of a new day, 285 00:24:25,202 --> 00:24:27,204 with renewed trust in God... 286 00:24:27,335 --> 00:24:30,077 If you have a culture that's primed to believe that stuff, 287 00:24:30,207 --> 00:24:33,776 all it takes is one spark and you've got panic. 288 00:24:42,568 --> 00:24:47,964 In 1980, there was a book that came out called Michelle Remembers. 289 00:24:48,095 --> 00:24:53,143 And it was about this woman who had apparently had repressed memories 290 00:24:53,274 --> 00:24:56,799 of her childhood and being ritually abused by Satanists. 291 00:25:02,849 --> 00:25:05,068 And this was extracted by her psychiatrist. 292 00:25:05,199 --> 00:25:09,072 And they published together this book. 293 00:25:09,203 --> 00:25:11,248 Over the course of several months, 294 00:25:11,379 --> 00:25:15,165 Pazder hypnotized Michelle. 295 00:25:15,296 --> 00:25:18,255 I'm going to count backwards from ten to one. 296 00:25:18,386 --> 00:25:22,912 And strongly, strongly encouraged her to recover memories 297 00:25:23,043 --> 00:25:27,003 of having been ritually abused by her mother 298 00:25:27,134 --> 00:25:30,920 and a group of local Satan worshippers. 299 00:25:35,925 --> 00:25:39,276 The Virgin Mary literally appears to her 300 00:25:39,407 --> 00:25:44,064 and encourages Michelle to go forth and basically warn people 301 00:25:44,194 --> 00:25:47,807 that Satan is coming and we're all in grave danger. 302 00:25:47,937 --> 00:25:51,071 That book propelled 303 00:25:51,201 --> 00:25:55,379 a decade and a half of fear and paranoia and panic 304 00:25:55,510 --> 00:26:00,080 and the ruining of lives all across the United States. 305 00:26:00,210 --> 00:26:03,126 Whether Satan exists is a matter of belief. 306 00:26:03,257 --> 00:26:05,433 But we are certain that Satanism exists. 307 00:26:05,564 --> 00:26:09,742 To some it's a religion. To others it's the practice of evil 308 00:26:09,872 --> 00:26:11,308 in the devil's name. 309 00:26:11,439 --> 00:26:13,746 It exists and is flourishing. 310 00:26:18,141 --> 00:26:20,274 What Ruth saw when she followed them inside 311 00:26:20,404 --> 00:26:23,364 would later be locked away to reappear only 312 00:26:23,494 --> 00:26:26,976 for a psychiatrist during a hypnosis session. 313 00:26:27,107 --> 00:26:29,631 There are absolutely people in the mid-1980s 314 00:26:29,762 --> 00:26:34,157 who are like, "Actual Satan is working through people and Satan is coming for our kids 315 00:26:34,288 --> 00:26:37,944 and working through our local officials and possibly our law enforcement," whatever. 316 00:26:38,074 --> 00:26:41,034 Ruth tells of a room with an altar, 317 00:26:41,164 --> 00:26:45,473 a table with a black cloth on it and a big book and lots of candles. 318 00:26:45,604 --> 00:26:50,130 On the table is her daughter who's being sexually fondled by most of the men. 319 00:26:52,828 --> 00:26:54,395 I want it to stop. 320 00:26:54,525 --> 00:26:58,051 My mother keeps her door locked 321 00:26:58,181 --> 00:27:00,488 during the daytime and she used to didn't do that. 322 00:27:00,619 --> 00:27:05,275 And then... and most people just, you know, taking precautions. 323 00:27:05,406 --> 00:27:07,495 It's like anything else. 324 00:27:07,626 --> 00:27:09,062 Once it hits the news media, 325 00:27:09,192 --> 00:27:11,499 you got a hundred people calling you. 326 00:27:11,630 --> 00:27:15,329 Detective Alan Alves of the Freetown Police 327 00:27:15,459 --> 00:27:18,071 is an expert on satanic cults. 328 00:27:18,201 --> 00:27:20,160 Some of them are way off and stuff like that. 329 00:27:20,290 --> 00:27:22,989 Some you looked into and they turned out to be factual. 330 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,948 Other parts of the country, there's human sacrifice. 331 00:27:26,079 --> 00:27:27,341 Uh, we don't wanna see any of that. 332 00:27:27,471 --> 00:27:30,126 Our investigation went way up 333 00:27:30,257 --> 00:27:33,347 even to government officials and so forth. 334 00:27:33,477 --> 00:27:37,133 The willingness by police officers and attorneys 335 00:27:37,264 --> 00:27:39,919 and even people in the mental health profession 336 00:27:40,049 --> 00:27:44,488 to embrace these stories is rooted in the fact 337 00:27:44,619 --> 00:27:48,362 that if you are one of the people who's in a moral panic about the devil, 338 00:27:48,492 --> 00:27:53,062 you will see patterns which to you are warning signs 339 00:27:53,193 --> 00:27:55,064 that the devil is there. 340 00:27:59,547 --> 00:28:03,377 The question is, is there a well-organized plot, 341 00:28:03,507 --> 00:28:09,122 an insidious design right now to program and influence the minds of our children 342 00:28:09,252 --> 00:28:11,733 towards the occult and witchcraft? 343 00:28:11,864 --> 00:28:16,216 Yes, there's a vast movement toward the occult within the cartoon and toy industry. 344 00:28:16,346 --> 00:28:20,176 Eighty percent of all cartoons deal directly with the occult. 345 00:28:20,307 --> 00:28:24,833 Smurfs representing animated dead people. 346 00:28:24,964 --> 00:28:27,357 My Little Pony was satanic. 347 00:28:27,488 --> 00:28:30,056 Uh, Rainbow Brite, 348 00:28:30,186 --> 00:28:32,536 the rainbow was a symbol of the New World Order 349 00:28:32,667 --> 00:28:36,410 and she had an upside-down pentagram branded on her face. 350 00:28:36,540 --> 00:28:40,153 So if the cartoon says that a character has occult powers, 351 00:28:40,283 --> 00:28:42,721 then when the child plays with the toy, 352 00:28:42,851 --> 00:28:45,201 he is going to use that toy to cast spells 353 00:28:45,332 --> 00:28:47,203 or do whatever the toy does in the cartoon, 354 00:28:47,334 --> 00:28:50,380 and they imagine themselves with these occult powers. 355 00:28:50,511 --> 00:28:54,254 There was all kind of dolls with the eye cut out 356 00:28:54,384 --> 00:28:57,039 because they give the children drugs and everything else 357 00:28:57,170 --> 00:28:58,824 when they were molesting them and so forth. 358 00:29:00,260 --> 00:29:03,176 There is great utility in othering somebody else. 359 00:29:03,306 --> 00:29:07,354 So if I disagree with you, that's one thing. 360 00:29:07,484 --> 00:29:11,271 But if you are of the devil, if you're demonic, 361 00:29:11,401 --> 00:29:13,403 if you're evil, 362 00:29:13,534 --> 00:29:16,276 well, now, you know, everything goes to a whole other level. 363 00:29:16,406 --> 00:29:20,454 That is what $10,000 worth of burning records looks like. 364 00:29:20,584 --> 00:29:23,109 The Bible says what the standards should be 365 00:29:23,239 --> 00:29:26,112 for morality, for a young person or for any person. 366 00:29:26,242 --> 00:29:28,984 And the rock groups go against what the Bible say. 367 00:29:31,465 --> 00:29:35,208 What out of all of those satanic stories could you ever put your finger on and say, 368 00:29:35,338 --> 00:29:37,384 "There's proof." 369 00:29:37,514 --> 00:29:39,255 There is no proof. 370 00:29:39,386 --> 00:29:43,433 It's what anybody believes at any given moment. 371 00:29:43,564 --> 00:29:48,221 There are some very obvious ritualistic markings that will appear on a body 372 00:29:48,351 --> 00:29:51,920 that is the result of satanic killings. 373 00:29:53,443 --> 00:29:58,535 There's oftentimes a cut that goes from behind the ear 374 00:29:58,666 --> 00:30:02,322 all the way down to the throat. 375 00:30:02,452 --> 00:30:06,369 Another thing that is oftentimes done in ritualistic homicides 376 00:30:06,500 --> 00:30:10,243 is a penis is placed inside the mouth of the deceased person. 377 00:30:13,289 --> 00:30:15,988 I think everybody was starting to realize, you know, this... 378 00:30:16,118 --> 00:30:17,859 this doesn't make a lot of sense. 379 00:30:19,339 --> 00:30:21,210 The case appeared to crumble 380 00:30:21,341 --> 00:30:24,170 and the charges against all the men were dropped. 381 00:30:30,567 --> 00:30:33,309 Uh... no, it wasn't. 382 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:34,484 No, it wasn't. 383 00:30:34,615 --> 00:30:36,704 It was crushed. 384 00:30:36,835 --> 00:30:40,273 You know, I'm not saying that no one ever did a heinous deed 385 00:30:40,403 --> 00:30:43,580 in the name of the devil because they believed in a literal Satan. 386 00:30:43,711 --> 00:30:48,194 But in the larger picture against the backdrop of the satanic panic, 387 00:30:48,324 --> 00:30:52,111 you know, almost all of the accusations made 388 00:30:52,241 --> 00:30:54,504 that Satan was supposedly behind, 389 00:30:54,635 --> 00:30:57,333 all of those just vanished, they dissolved, they fell apart. 390 00:30:57,464 --> 00:30:58,465 There was nothing to them. 391 00:31:06,299 --> 00:31:08,170 Right. Yeah. 392 00:31:09,258 --> 00:31:11,521 Yeah. 393 00:31:11,652 --> 00:31:14,568 Uh, because a lot of important people are involved in it. 394 00:31:14,698 --> 00:31:18,746 I don't wanna sound like a... um... 395 00:31:18,877 --> 00:31:21,183 "conspiry" theorist, you know. 396 00:31:21,314 --> 00:31:25,187 A lot of important people were involved, you know? 397 00:31:25,318 --> 00:31:27,276 I... even today. 398 00:31:29,452 --> 00:31:32,368 Q is about getting to the truth 399 00:31:32,499 --> 00:31:36,372 by educating people about the truth about what's really going on. 400 00:31:36,503 --> 00:31:40,376 They take children and they sacrifice these children. 401 00:31:40,507 --> 00:31:42,117 It's part of Satanism. 402 00:31:42,248 --> 00:31:45,468 The satanic panic continues today. 403 00:31:45,599 --> 00:31:47,775 -It's evil! -QAnon, 404 00:31:47,906 --> 00:31:51,518 there's a vast satanic conspiracy of Democratic pedophiles 405 00:31:51,648 --> 00:31:53,694 trying to take over the world. I mean, that's... 406 00:31:53,824 --> 00:31:56,479 That is straight-up satanic panic. 407 00:31:56,610 --> 00:31:59,308 My fellow Americans, 408 00:31:59,439 --> 00:32:02,616 I stand here with all the feelings I do, 409 00:32:02,746 --> 00:32:04,661 disgusted with this lie 410 00:32:04,792 --> 00:32:06,620 that Biden has been chosen. 411 00:32:06,750 --> 00:32:12,191 This is now our greatest fight since the Civil War. 412 00:32:12,321 --> 00:32:16,064 The battle of righteousness versus Satan. 413 00:32:16,195 --> 00:32:17,674 Yes, Satan. 414 00:32:17,805 --> 00:32:21,287 Because these leftists are evil. 415 00:32:21,417 --> 00:32:24,246 They're doctors, they're lawyers, police officers 416 00:32:24,377 --> 00:32:26,509 and stuff molesting kids and everything else. 417 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,338 They shut it down, uh... 418 00:32:29,469 --> 00:32:32,211 -The Attorney General's office. 419 00:32:34,735 --> 00:32:37,433 Yeah, yes it is. Yeah. 420 00:32:37,564 --> 00:32:39,131 Yeah. 421 00:32:46,660 --> 00:32:48,836 People romanticize this case. 422 00:32:48,967 --> 00:32:53,580 They are looking at it as this is this satanic cult 423 00:32:53,710 --> 00:32:55,756 that's worshipping in the Freetown State Forest 424 00:32:55,886 --> 00:33:00,369 and they're, you know, killing babies and cats and dogs and sheep 425 00:33:00,500 --> 00:33:04,591 and whatever and they've got altars hidden deep into the woods. 426 00:33:04,721 --> 00:33:06,985 And that's not what this case was about. 427 00:33:12,642 --> 00:33:17,430 The things that were let into evidence of satanic worshipping and stuff, 428 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:19,258 I mean, come on. 429 00:33:19,388 --> 00:33:21,564 Why was that even let in? 430 00:33:21,695 --> 00:33:23,175 It's just a bunch of bullshit. 431 00:33:25,612 --> 00:33:27,614 I wasn't brought up in a religious family. 432 00:33:27,744 --> 00:33:29,790 I never studied any kind of religion. 433 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,401 My religion back then was women. 434 00:33:32,532 --> 00:33:34,403 I just loved being around women. 435 00:33:36,362 --> 00:33:37,624 I'm not saying that Carl Drew 436 00:33:37,754 --> 00:33:39,887 necessarily participated in these murders, but 437 00:33:40,018 --> 00:33:41,628 I think it's impossible 438 00:33:41,758 --> 00:33:44,413 to control women to the degree in which he did 439 00:33:44,544 --> 00:33:47,329 without some sort of fear of violence. 440 00:34:01,082 --> 00:34:04,042 It was a short time the jurors were out, the next thing I know, 441 00:34:04,172 --> 00:34:06,914 you know, I'm being called out there and was standing up in front of the jury. 442 00:34:07,045 --> 00:34:11,266 And I stood there and says, "Guilty of first-degree murder." 443 00:34:11,397 --> 00:34:13,355 And I'm in the shock of my life. 444 00:34:15,705 --> 00:34:18,665 Carl Drew was sentenced for all of his natural life. 445 00:34:18,795 --> 00:34:20,188 To be imprisoned. 446 00:34:27,761 --> 00:34:30,155 After Carl had a trial, 447 00:34:30,285 --> 00:34:33,636 the other people he was charged with in the same series of events, 448 00:34:33,767 --> 00:34:36,770 their charges were dismissed. 449 00:34:36,900 --> 00:34:41,253 If Massachusetts had the death penalty, this would have been a death penalty eligible case. 450 00:34:41,383 --> 00:34:46,606 Uh, undeniably. In fact, the death penalty had just been eradicated right before. 451 00:34:46,736 --> 00:34:50,305 So if Massachusetts was a different sort of state, 452 00:34:50,436 --> 00:34:53,308 Carl Drew would be dead right now. 453 00:34:53,439 --> 00:34:56,746 Carl is in prison for one case, 454 00:34:56,877 --> 00:34:59,488 Karen Marsden's case. 455 00:34:59,619 --> 00:35:02,448 The Doreen Levesque case is open. 456 00:35:02,578 --> 00:35:03,449 It's unsolved. 457 00:35:25,384 --> 00:35:26,689 I knew Paul Carey. 458 00:35:26,820 --> 00:35:30,432 He was a former police detective sergeant. 459 00:35:30,563 --> 00:35:32,565 And he was a friend of my dad's. 460 00:35:32,695 --> 00:35:35,307 Paul Carey, we were very close. 461 00:35:35,437 --> 00:35:36,873 I worked with him for 462 00:35:37,004 --> 00:35:40,399 probably six of my 19 years 463 00:35:40,529 --> 00:35:42,575 in major crimes division. 464 00:35:42,705 --> 00:35:45,360 He participated in the investigation 465 00:35:45,491 --> 00:35:47,667 every step of the way, along with myself 466 00:35:47,797 --> 00:35:49,538 and Detective Joaquim. 467 00:35:49,669 --> 00:35:51,497 I mean, it was a night detective division. 468 00:35:51,627 --> 00:35:54,456 The day guys, I wasn't in charge of nothing in the day. 469 00:35:54,587 --> 00:35:56,719 That was just the sergeant. Detective sergeant. 470 00:35:56,850 --> 00:36:00,636 But they asked me if I would take over the night detective division. 471 00:36:00,767 --> 00:36:03,378 And I said I would. 472 00:36:03,509 --> 00:36:05,728 Alan and I worked nights, and eventually 473 00:36:05,859 --> 00:36:07,426 Paul Carey came down 474 00:36:07,556 --> 00:36:08,557 and started working nights with us. 475 00:36:12,039 --> 00:36:15,216 Nobody worked the case except me and Alan and Tommy Joaquim. 476 00:36:19,525 --> 00:36:21,570 When I was like 18 or 19, 477 00:36:21,701 --> 00:36:26,662 Paul Carey came by and he said he'd recently retired. 478 00:36:26,793 --> 00:36:30,797 He had mentioned that he was gonna be teaching some classes just part-time, you know, 479 00:36:30,927 --> 00:36:33,756 at local colleges or whatnot, just to stay busy 480 00:36:33,887 --> 00:36:35,715 'cause he didn't want to sit around doing anything. 481 00:36:35,845 --> 00:36:38,674 And that he was gonna be a private detective. 482 00:36:38,805 --> 00:36:41,634 So, and I was in community college at the time. 483 00:36:41,764 --> 00:36:47,379 And he came by and dropped off a couple of milk crates of the actual trial. 484 00:36:47,509 --> 00:36:50,773 And he said, "Why don't you take a look at these? Read these. Tell me what you think." 485 00:36:50,904 --> 00:36:55,517 He goes, "Now, just so you know, all of these cases are my case. 486 00:36:55,648 --> 00:36:58,477 I was the detective sergeant of the team at the time. 487 00:36:58,607 --> 00:37:02,437 And I just wanna get to the bottom of it." 488 00:37:15,842 --> 00:37:18,758 He dropped off like four or five more milk crates 489 00:37:18,888 --> 00:37:22,196 of daily logs, day by day of what was happening. 490 00:37:22,327 --> 00:37:27,636 And I started with the very first day of the Doreen Levesque body being found. 491 00:37:29,159 --> 00:37:30,726 And went all the way until the day 492 00:37:30,857 --> 00:37:32,380 they arrested Carl Drew. 493 00:38:05,021 --> 00:38:08,677 Now, this wasn't like I sat down casually, while watching Wheel of Fortune. 494 00:38:08,808 --> 00:38:09,852 We're talking a lot of stuff here. 495 00:38:09,983 --> 00:38:12,899 He said, "So now that I'm retired, 496 00:38:13,029 --> 00:38:15,249 it's been my mission for years. 497 00:38:15,380 --> 00:38:16,859 I've known this guy's been innocent. 498 00:38:16,990 --> 00:38:21,299 I just couldn't prove it while I was still a part of the department." 499 00:38:36,357 --> 00:38:41,710 Paul told me that he would go to the jail to meet with Carl quite often. 500 00:38:41,841 --> 00:38:43,669 Which was a shock to me. 501 00:38:43,799 --> 00:38:46,280 Until the day that Paul died and passed away, 502 00:38:46,411 --> 00:38:48,587 he's always believed in my innocence. 503 00:38:50,066 --> 00:38:52,025 He wanted to speak to the... 504 00:38:52,155 --> 00:38:53,940 district attorney at the time. 505 00:38:54,070 --> 00:38:57,726 Asked me to speak to the district attorney 506 00:38:57,857 --> 00:39:00,120 to talk about Carl Drew's innocence. 507 00:39:00,250 --> 00:39:03,645 I thought it was all very strange. 508 00:39:08,215 --> 00:39:11,827 I, me, and him. It's all him. It's all him. 509 00:39:11,958 --> 00:39:14,917 He's an "I" person. Right? He's an "I" person. 510 00:39:15,048 --> 00:39:18,921 I'm surprised he doesn't have a sore back from patting himself all the time. You know? 511 00:39:23,056 --> 00:39:25,319 You could tell him I said so. 512 00:39:25,450 --> 00:39:28,322 He's like, "I'd like to track down everybody from the trial. 513 00:39:28,453 --> 00:39:31,978 Just get the truth. If they all come back and say, 'You know what? 514 00:39:32,108 --> 00:39:36,852 What I said there was the truth and he did it,'" he said, "Then, fine." 515 00:39:36,983 --> 00:39:38,680 And he asked me if I would help him do that. 516 00:39:38,811 --> 00:39:40,682 He said, "You're good with computers. 517 00:39:40,813 --> 00:39:42,858 You know, here's a list of names of people. 518 00:39:42,989 --> 00:39:43,816 Can you find them?" 519 00:39:45,861 --> 00:39:47,602 Paul begins a six-year hunt 520 00:39:47,733 --> 00:39:52,128 for Carol Fletcher and Leah Johnson. 521 00:39:52,259 --> 00:39:54,696 And these were not easy people to find. 522 00:39:58,831 --> 00:40:01,877 We tracked down Leah Johnson first. 523 00:40:02,008 --> 00:40:05,838 She was locked up for drug charges, uh, cocaine. 524 00:40:05,968 --> 00:40:08,928 And so, "Find out when she's gonna get out." 525 00:40:09,058 --> 00:40:12,714 We were right in front of the prison when she got out. 526 00:40:12,845 --> 00:40:15,674 And then Paul rolled down the window and he goes, 527 00:40:15,804 --> 00:40:17,806 "Leah!" 528 00:40:17,937 --> 00:40:20,679 And she looked, she's like, "Yeah?" 529 00:40:20,809 --> 00:40:22,115 Goes, "Come here, you remember me?" 530 00:40:22,245 --> 00:40:24,160 She looks in, she goes, "Yeah, you're Paul Carey." 531 00:40:24,291 --> 00:40:26,946 And he goes, "That's right. You need a ride somewhere?" 532 00:40:27,076 --> 00:40:29,601 She goes, "Well, yeah, if you wouldn't mind." 533 00:40:36,390 --> 00:40:41,917 Paul had been working on this for... what, 32, 33 years. 534 00:40:58,325 --> 00:41:01,633 You know, it's chilling to hear his voice on there. 535 00:41:03,069 --> 00:41:04,897 Go ahead, Chris, you ask the question. 536 00:41:14,123 --> 00:41:15,908 Did he say it was Karen's ring? 537 00:41:18,432 --> 00:41:22,044 Leah Johnson said, "Oh, yeah. You know, the whole ring story? 538 00:41:22,175 --> 00:41:24,482 That's a bullshit story." 539 00:41:39,801 --> 00:41:41,673 Yeah, yeah. 540 00:41:46,591 --> 00:41:49,245 Testimony's supposed to be voluntary. 541 00:41:49,376 --> 00:41:53,423 And a prosecutor can always say, 542 00:41:53,554 --> 00:41:56,992 "I decided not to charge this person with this other crime" 543 00:41:57,123 --> 00:42:00,430 and give them immunity in exchange for their testimony against this person. 544 00:42:00,561 --> 00:42:04,043 Now, telling someone that you're not gonna send them to prison 545 00:42:04,173 --> 00:42:08,177 if they testify for you is inherently coercive. 546 00:42:08,308 --> 00:42:10,876 What'd they say would happen to you? 547 00:42:15,184 --> 00:42:17,796 Who told you that? Anyone in particular or...? 548 00:42:25,194 --> 00:42:28,546 You say it definitely wasn't true, Leah. 549 00:42:42,211 --> 00:42:43,735 They actually showed you that? 550 00:42:45,084 --> 00:42:46,912 Before you went to court or anything? 551 00:42:47,042 --> 00:42:48,261 Yeah. I... Oh, my God. 552 00:42:48,391 --> 00:42:50,568 And what did they tell you how it happened? 553 00:42:52,395 --> 00:42:54,572 Oh, my God. They said that to you? 554 00:43:06,975 --> 00:43:09,499 She signed an affidavit. She's recorded. 555 00:43:09,630 --> 00:43:13,765 She recants her testimony knowing she could get in legal trouble for that. 556 00:43:16,245 --> 00:43:19,118 The chances that he was gonna find these people 557 00:43:19,248 --> 00:43:23,252 was pretty slim, much less find them still coherent. 558 00:43:23,383 --> 00:43:25,994 Much less find them willing to testify. 559 00:43:28,388 --> 00:43:30,869 We located Carol Fletcher. 560 00:43:30,999 --> 00:43:32,914 She was in a shelter in Baltimore, Maryland. 561 00:43:35,438 --> 00:43:37,702 Me and Paul drove down there early in the morning. 562 00:43:37,832 --> 00:43:41,096 We left at like four. We got there probably around lunchtime. 563 00:43:41,227 --> 00:43:43,011 Something like that. 564 00:43:43,142 --> 00:43:46,624 And, uh, and we walked in there and I asked for Carol. 565 00:43:46,754 --> 00:43:51,367 Today's the 23rd of May, 2003. 566 00:43:51,498 --> 00:43:56,634 I'm at the home of Carol Brooks, who was Carol Fletcher in 1980. 567 00:43:56,764 --> 00:43:59,375 She's a very fragile, nervous wreck. 568 00:43:59,506 --> 00:44:03,423 She's got tons of anxiety. She's on a bunch of medications. 569 00:44:03,553 --> 00:44:07,949 And you can sit and just see when she's talking in this interview, 570 00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,038 I can remember that tape when you're playing it. 571 00:44:26,751 --> 00:44:30,885 So she really had, uh, she really put you in fear of Carl Drew? 572 00:44:32,147 --> 00:44:33,105 She's just saying, you know, 573 00:44:33,235 --> 00:44:35,150 he wasn't there. 574 00:44:35,281 --> 00:44:36,978 Now, you were never a Carl Drew fan, 575 00:44:37,109 --> 00:44:38,545 so you have no reason to tell me a story 576 00:44:38,676 --> 00:44:40,373 that he wasn't there, the only reason you're telling me 577 00:44:40,503 --> 00:44:42,070 is because he wasn't there, I assume. 578 00:44:49,251 --> 00:44:52,864 This was a long process. It took some time to get her to open up. 579 00:44:55,475 --> 00:45:00,698 After, you know, many pots of coffee and many donuts... 580 00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:17,105 Carol finally broke. 581 00:45:35,428 --> 00:45:39,998 You were driving around, Carol, on February the 8th, around whatever time it was? 582 00:45:58,451 --> 00:46:00,888 Did you go anywhere then? Or did you just, uh... 583 00:46:16,643 --> 00:46:17,992 She said that to you? 584 00:46:22,214 --> 00:46:23,432 She... but she didn't say who it was? 585 00:46:23,563 --> 00:46:25,260 Or who was there? 586 00:46:34,269 --> 00:46:36,184 She told you that? 587 00:46:44,105 --> 00:46:45,193 What kind of car was it? 588 00:46:46,194 --> 00:46:47,413 A green Duster. Yeah. 589 00:46:47,543 --> 00:46:48,936 Um... 590 00:47:02,384 --> 00:47:03,298 And then what did you do? 591 00:47:25,581 --> 00:47:28,323 She said, this is what really happened, 592 00:47:28,454 --> 00:47:33,502 was that Karen was coerced onto the roof of Harbor Terrace, 593 00:47:33,633 --> 00:47:37,115 Carl wasn't even there, it never happened in the woods. 594 00:47:37,245 --> 00:47:40,161 It was on the roof of Harbor Terrace, 595 00:47:40,292 --> 00:47:42,337 which blew us away. We had no idea about it. 596 00:47:42,468 --> 00:47:45,079 How was Karen? Was she... 597 00:47:45,210 --> 00:47:47,865 Yeah, she was crying, huh? 598 00:47:49,605 --> 00:47:52,347 Robin pulled out a knife, grabbed her by the hair, 599 00:47:52,478 --> 00:47:53,479 pulled out a knife. 600 00:47:53,609 --> 00:47:55,307 You saw what you saw... 601 00:47:55,437 --> 00:47:57,178 You don't know whether she was killed, 602 00:47:57,309 --> 00:47:59,528 but you saw what you saw and you left? 603 00:47:59,659 --> 00:48:01,530 Right. On the roof? 604 00:48:01,661 --> 00:48:04,272 You saw her pulling the hair out? 605 00:48:07,667 --> 00:48:10,365 The knife and, uh, and you left? 606 00:48:27,861 --> 00:48:31,386 The revelation that we got from Carol that no one had ever gotten before 607 00:48:31,517 --> 00:48:34,694 was that Carol witnessed 608 00:48:34,824 --> 00:48:37,740 Robin Murphy killing Karen Marsden. 609 00:48:37,871 --> 00:48:40,091 Or she was right nearby when it happened. 610 00:48:41,875 --> 00:48:46,140 Robin Murphy actually killed Karen Marsden. 611 00:48:46,271 --> 00:48:49,187 The DA's office made a mistake. 612 00:48:49,317 --> 00:48:51,667 Here was finally independent evidence 613 00:48:51,798 --> 00:48:55,802 that Murphy had killed Marsden without Carl Drew being present. 614 00:48:55,933 --> 00:49:01,025 She beat the Fall River police department, she got away with murders, 615 00:49:01,155 --> 00:49:05,116 then she went over their heads and went directly to the prosecutor. 616 00:49:17,693 --> 00:49:20,392 Robin masterminded all of this. 617 00:49:20,522 --> 00:49:22,655 I say she's the mastermind? Yeah, she was. 618 00:49:22,785 --> 00:49:27,529 At 17 years old, she was able to convince the district attorney 619 00:49:27,660 --> 00:49:30,750 and the courts Carl was gonna kill her, 620 00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:34,623 and that she had no choice but to testify against Carl for what he did. 621 00:49:34,754 --> 00:49:38,062 You know, you have to give credit to Robin Murphy. 622 00:49:38,192 --> 00:49:42,327 You know, the only thing you can say is that she's a lot smarter 623 00:49:42,457 --> 00:49:44,633 than all the fucking people involved in the case. 624 00:50:07,047 --> 00:50:11,530 I filed the motion for new trial in September of 2003. 625 00:50:11,660 --> 00:50:14,228 But in May of 2004, 626 00:50:14,359 --> 00:50:16,883 Robin Murphy came up for parole. 627 00:50:17,014 --> 00:50:19,886 Do you solemnly swear that the testimony that you give to the Massachusetts parole... 628 00:50:20,017 --> 00:50:23,281 Detective Sergeant Paul Carey never really thought 629 00:50:23,411 --> 00:50:26,240 talking to Robin was gonna be beneficial. 630 00:50:26,371 --> 00:50:28,460 Because Robin is a manipulator. 631 00:50:28,590 --> 00:50:32,246 She was up for parole soon. She's not gonna tell on herself. 632 00:50:47,392 --> 00:50:50,177 Robin Murphy manipulated them. 633 00:50:50,308 --> 00:50:51,396 She committed these crimes. 634 00:51:10,589 --> 00:51:13,679 Robin Murphy came before the state parole board 635 00:51:13,809 --> 00:51:17,509 and admitted to them that she had lied. 636 00:51:17,639 --> 00:51:21,861 And also, she denied killing anybody. 637 00:51:21,991 --> 00:51:23,863 It was a really alarming parole hearing. 638 00:51:23,993 --> 00:51:26,692 And the parole board member said, 639 00:51:26,822 --> 00:51:28,650 "Hold on, hold on. 640 00:51:28,781 --> 00:51:31,349 Let me get this straight. You're saying that you lied? 641 00:51:31,479 --> 00:51:33,177 Do you not have any remorse for this?" 642 00:51:53,849 --> 00:51:56,548 She made up this whole story about Carl. 643 00:52:19,832 --> 00:52:22,487 It was... it was all bullshit. 644 00:52:22,617 --> 00:52:25,142 All bullshit. 645 00:52:39,504 --> 00:52:40,722 If Carl had the opportunity 646 00:52:40,853 --> 00:52:42,376 to testify against Robin, 647 00:52:42,507 --> 00:52:43,725 I think he would have. 648 00:52:43,856 --> 00:52:45,031 He could have done that, 649 00:52:45,162 --> 00:52:46,641 if he was given the same offer. 650 00:52:46,772 --> 00:52:48,165 But he wasn't. 651 00:53:04,529 --> 00:53:06,661 After listening to her testimony, 652 00:53:06,792 --> 00:53:08,794 the parole board, the state parole board, 653 00:53:08,924 --> 00:53:10,448 paroled her. 654 00:53:19,457 --> 00:53:22,938 They believed her enough to put her back on the street after she'd pled guilty. 655 00:53:23,069 --> 00:53:26,768 She beat the parole board by saying, "I'm a changed person. 656 00:53:26,899 --> 00:53:29,728 I'm gonna be a good girl, I promise." 657 00:53:29,858 --> 00:53:33,645 And she was able to get out again, even though they knew she had changed her story. 658 00:53:53,055 --> 00:53:55,449 I tried to speak to Robin. I went to her house. 659 00:53:55,580 --> 00:53:57,712 I reached out to her attorney. 660 00:53:57,843 --> 00:54:00,672 She steadfastly refused to speak to me. 661 00:54:00,802 --> 00:54:03,805 I think I got her on the phone once. 662 00:54:03,936 --> 00:54:05,633 And she called me a liar. 663 00:54:07,853 --> 00:54:10,029 She hasn't told her story. You know, it's funny, 664 00:54:10,159 --> 00:54:13,641 I kind of lost track of Robin Murphy shortly after she was released. 665 00:54:13,772 --> 00:54:16,818 And I was really hoping they'd put her back in prison. 666 00:54:16,949 --> 00:54:22,259 Robin was finally granted parole in early 2000. She was released. 667 00:54:24,043 --> 00:54:28,743 She was out for about seven years, till 2011. 668 00:54:28,874 --> 00:54:33,313 She'd got into a relationship with a... another felon. 669 00:54:34,793 --> 00:54:37,709 And, unfortunately, that violated her parole conditions. 670 00:54:54,943 --> 00:54:57,859 Miss Murphy, you pled guilty and you were committed, 671 00:54:57,990 --> 00:55:00,514 uh, on a second-degree life sentence 672 00:55:00,645 --> 00:55:01,602 as a result of your plea? 673 00:55:01,733 --> 00:55:02,951 Yes, sir. 674 00:55:03,082 --> 00:55:04,953 Uh, since that time, you were paroled in 2004. 675 00:55:05,084 --> 00:55:06,738 -Correct? -Yes, sir. 676 00:55:06,868 --> 00:55:09,088 -You're now back on a revocation? -Yes, sir. 677 00:55:09,218 --> 00:55:10,872 -Of that parole? Okay. -Yes, sir. 678 00:55:19,968 --> 00:55:22,797 My regret in all that is... 679 00:55:22,928 --> 00:55:25,800 no one will ever find out what really happened. 680 00:55:25,931 --> 00:55:30,631 Because what I said has now become what happened. 681 00:55:30,762 --> 00:55:35,332 So the real story won't really never come out. 682 00:55:37,943 --> 00:55:40,641 Hello, this is a prepaid collect call. 683 00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:27,949 How you feeling? Exhausted. 684 00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:29,603 Yeah. Yeah. 685 00:56:29,734 --> 00:56:32,084 I like how you know a lot of pieces 686 00:56:32,214 --> 00:56:36,044 and it seems like no one else ever put any of that together. 687 00:56:36,175 --> 00:56:38,569 I don't know that... I just find it amazing. 688 00:56:38,699 --> 00:56:40,875 That's crazy. 689 00:56:41,006 --> 00:56:45,489 I tried really hard numerous times to tell the truth. 690 00:56:45,619 --> 00:56:47,142 No one cares. 691 00:56:47,273 --> 00:56:51,712 I wish that people really knew what really happened.