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Dennis Nilsen
is charged with murdering
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Kenneth Ockenden, Martyn Duffy,
William Sutherland, Malcolm Barlow,
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John Howlett and Stephen Sinclair.
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He's also accused of attempting
to murder Douglas Stewart
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and Paul Knobbs.
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As each of the eight
charges were read out,
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the defendant was asked,
"How say you, Nilson?
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"Are you guilty or not guilty?"
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Eight times, in a firm voice,
he replied, "Not guilty."
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But is Nilson guilty of murder,
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or is he guilty only of manslaughter?
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I don't understand.
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Well, it's quite simple.
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Having spoken to my solicitors,
my barrister, um...
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learned people from the
psychology profession,
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I'm not sure if I am guilty.
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But on-on what grounds?
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In all the months
that we've been talking
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you've not mentioned a
plea of insanity once.
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Not insanity, no.
Diminished responsibility.
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But am I mad? I don't know.
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Madness, as Quixote said,
"Madness is seeing life as it is,
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"and not as it should be."
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You murdered those men, Des.
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And you knew what you were doing.
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Did I? I don't deny taking their lives.
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You know, I must wear
the label of a killer,
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and maybe I should be hanged for it.
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But I didn't plan them.
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Never.
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I took them home with
much purer intentions.
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Then I'd wake up and
they'd be sat there, dead.
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Now, no-one feels the
weight of that more than me.
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But the power of responsibility,
at that time, was nil.
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I-I look in the mirror,
and I see me, yeah?
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Just me. It's friendly, helpful,
responsible me. Just that.
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If this was true,
then why didn't you go to the police
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after the first time it happened?
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Don't you think I contemplated
that, Brian? Eh?
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Don't you think I wanted to
hand myself in, or end it all?
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Y'know? But then...
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survival and shame and the future
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makes you promise yourself
it'll never happen again...
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till it does.
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But yeah, I mean...
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had it not been for the dog,
I may well have surrendered myself.
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All I know is I don't know,
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and thus, a jury needs to decide.
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The press will be allowed to
publish every word spoken in court.
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Every single detail exposed.
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Is that not what you're doing?
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Well, I'm not exploiting
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these young men's tragedies
to sell newspapers.
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No, you're just exploiting me.
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I hope you know me better than that.
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I just want to get to the truth.
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Don't you?
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Peter, you know Mr Green, QC.
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Allan, please.
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I hear he's got the Krays' brief?
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And Ivan Lawrence as QC.
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It's a formidable defence team,
to say the least.
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Please, take a seat.
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I take it their angle's
diminished responsibility?
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- Didn't wash with Sutcliffe.
- The jury won't buy it.
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Sutcliffe didn't watch
TV with the bodies.
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Nilsen's not insane.
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They don't have to prove that.
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All they have to do
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is show that he was suffering
some abnormality of mind
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and therefore not fully
responsible for what he was doing.
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We, on the other hand,
have to prove that these crimes
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were carefully planned and premeditated.
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Surely his confessions do that.
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I'm afraid the confessions
only take us so far.
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What do you mean?
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He gave you a lot of answers
which prove what he did,
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but not what mind he
was in when he did it.
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He gave you exactly what he wanted to.
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You hardly asked him
any probing questions
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about what was on his mind.
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Hold on. We didn't want
him to suddenly stop talking.
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We needed to identify 15 people.
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I understand that, but the effect
was he gave you a lot of details
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that aren't going to
help us convict him.
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I'm sorry,
are you saying he planned this?
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We'll never know.
But if all we have are the confessions,
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then that's not going to be enough.
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We need more. Much more.
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We should have pushed for motive.
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Don't listen to Green.
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Everybody always thinks they're
a better copper than a copper.
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If he'd have stopped talking
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there's no way we'd have
found the people we did.
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Listen, they're just looking
for someone to blame
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if this all goes pear-shaped.
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But we're gonna make damned
sure that doesn't happen.
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Yeah.
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See you tomorrow.
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Thanks for meeting me.
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Please, take a seat.
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I almost didn't come.
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But you did.
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Cos you know this is wrong.
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I take it he's written to you
over the past few months?
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Oh, he has.
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How much?
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52 exercise books' worth.
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We're gonna need to take a look at them.
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That could be useful to
prove premeditation.
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- Mr Jay...
- All that matters is that
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we find as much evidence as we can
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that Nilsen was in his right mind.
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What if he's insane?
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You think he's insane?
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Well, it's not for me to decide.
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He's not mad.
He knew what he was doing was wrong.
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Well, I don't deny that.
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But at the same time,
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he was able to take the
head of someone he'd known,
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the severed head,
into a cooking pot on the stove,
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and let it simmer overnight.
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And then the next morning,
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he was able to pour
himself a cup of coffee
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and butter a slice of toast,
whilst turning up the heat
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to make sure that
the head was boiling properly.
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Now that is completely mad.
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I mean...
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He's really done a number
on you, hasn't he?
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You mistake me, Mr Jay.
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He's not my friend. I know who he is.
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Do you?
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Right, well, if there's nothing else...
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Listen, if he can convince a jury
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that he was out of his mind somehow,
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then he only gets manslaughter.
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He goes to a hospital and then
in 15 years he's deemed cured,
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and he's back out on the streets.
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Is that justice for the
victims and their families?
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If that happens...
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can you live with yourself?
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Because I know I can't.
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I'll drop the exercise
books off at the station.
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But we have a murder weapon.
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A tie attached to a knotted rope.
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Seems pretty pre-emptive to me.
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Okay, good. What else?
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We've got Duffey's knives.
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Nilsen let them rust in his back garden
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so they could never be
traced back to Martyn.
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That shows knowledge of wrongdoing,
therefore criminally sane.
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That's a stretch.
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What about these books from Masters?
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Surely there's got to
be something in here.
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The tragedy of the monochrome man?
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I mean, most of it's rambling nonsense.
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They help the defence if anything.
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What about Douglas Stewart?
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The press'll have a field day
with what happened to Stewart.
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Police embarrassment is
hardly relevant now.
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We have to use him. What else?
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What about the Soho Project?
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What about it?
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A woman called.
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Thinks someone in her therapy
group could be a possible victim...
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but I thought we weren't
looking for them any more.
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Okay, Steve and I will follow that up.
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Is that our lot?
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Paul Knobbs, in his statement, says...
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Sorry to have called.
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It's just he's been having
this recurring dream,
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but actually,
I think he's been attacked.
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Okay.
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I hope I'm not wasting your time.
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Is it all right if we
have a word with him?
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Go easy on him, okay?
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Of course. What's his name?
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Carl.
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All right.
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I'm in a dark room.
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I don't know where, and...
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there's music but it's calm.
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And then... this man appears.
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And I can't see his face,
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but he's very close to me.
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Um... But I'm not afraid, because...
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I'm warm.
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I'm wrapped up in some
kind of sleeping bag.
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And then, all of a sudden,
I feel something around my neck...
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digging into my throat,
and-and choking me.
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And I can hear him saying,
"Just stay still".
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And then everything goes dark.
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But then, after a while, I feel...
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something on my face,
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like... sort of like a dog
licking me or something.
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Can you remember what breed?
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Um... No.
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Carl?
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Have you seen this man?
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00:10:41,482 --> 00:10:45,552
- Yeah, yeah, on the news.
- His name is Dennis Nilsen.
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He killed 15 young men and
attempted to kill seven others.
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All of these men were strangled.
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Mostly with a tie or a headphone cord.
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But one, he tried to kill
with a sleeping bag.
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No...
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Cos the man in my dream keeps telling me
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not to get caught up in the zip.
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He also said he attempted to drown him
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before resuscitating him.
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I've never told anyone about the water.
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Do you remember the water?
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00:11:33,027 --> 00:11:35,404
Yeah. Um...
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00:11:36,574 --> 00:11:38,010
It was cold water,
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and I was being held down.
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00:11:41,660 --> 00:11:44,714
Where? In a bath or a sink?
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00:11:44,739 --> 00:11:47,259
I don't understand. Are you...
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00:11:48,946 --> 00:11:51,136
Are you telling me that
this actually happened?
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Yes.
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I think you're one of
Nilsen's attempted victims.
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00:11:57,042 --> 00:11:58,568
Because everything
that you are telling us
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aligns to what he told us.
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Can you remember where you met him or,
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anything about where he lived?
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00:12:04,558 --> 00:12:05,761
Well, no...
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00:12:05,786 --> 00:12:07,565
You said he warned you
about the sleeping bag.
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00:12:07,589 --> 00:12:10,431
- What did he say exactly?
- I don't know.
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00:12:10,456 --> 00:12:11,529
When he warned you about the zip,
228
00:12:11,553 --> 00:12:13,564
it shows he was planning
it way before he did it
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00:12:13,589 --> 00:12:15,596
so I need you to be clear. Come on.
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00:12:15,621 --> 00:12:17,807
- Just try to remember.
- I don't wanna do this any more.
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00:12:17,831 --> 00:12:19,963
Look, you have to. I know this is tough,
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00:12:19,988 --> 00:12:21,354
- but we need all the details.
- Detective.
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00:12:21,378 --> 00:12:22,785
- Just think.
- Detective,
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he's told you he's had enough.
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I'm aware of that, but
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- we are, I'm-I'm just trying...
- Peter.
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We can't use him.
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He won't survive cross-examination.
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You saw him in there.
They'll destroy him.
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I'll come back in a couple of days,
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00:12:41,433 --> 00:12:43,033
see if I can get a statement from him
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and we can read that out in court,
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if we need to.
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00:12:46,782 --> 00:12:48,995
Peter... we have enough.
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And he led us to the bodies,
for fuck's sake.
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00:13:00,061 --> 00:13:02,964
For the first day of this,
the trial of Dennis Nilsen,
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00:13:02,996 --> 00:13:06,003
the unassuming civil servant
who's charged with crimes
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00:13:06,028 --> 00:13:08,722
that have shocked
and sickened the nation.
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00:13:08,905 --> 00:13:12,728
Nilsen is charged with six murders
and two attempted murders.
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00:13:13,042 --> 00:13:16,513
Details of a recently identified
seventh victim, Graham Allen,
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00:13:16,538 --> 00:13:18,573
a heroin addict and petty criminal,
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will not be featured on the indictment.
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00:13:21,832 --> 00:13:24,439
Masters!
254
00:13:24,464 --> 00:13:27,019
What's it like being friends
with a serial killer?
255
00:13:27,886 --> 00:13:30,775
What's it like rubbing shoulders
with a murderer, Masters?
256
00:13:33,590 --> 00:13:36,495
What's it like being friends
with a serial killer?
257
00:13:56,824 --> 00:13:58,120
Steve.
258
00:13:58,909 --> 00:14:00,347
You all right?
259
00:14:00,372 --> 00:14:01,372
Good.
260
00:14:02,163 --> 00:14:04,803
- Sleep okay?
- No. I never do.
261
00:14:16,741 --> 00:14:18,905
Oh, here he is. Brian Masters,
262
00:14:18,930 --> 00:14:21,290
biographer to the
murderer of the century.
263
00:14:21,315 --> 00:14:23,036
Did you see the press outside?
264
00:14:23,061 --> 00:14:25,163
Jesus, they'll have headlines for weeks.
265
00:14:25,188 --> 00:14:27,241
Revelling in the case, like carrion.
266
00:14:27,266 --> 00:14:29,499
One of the papers today had the headline
267
00:14:29,524 --> 00:14:31,811
"House Of Horrors - The Trial."
268
00:14:31,836 --> 00:14:33,210
The only "house of
horrors" I've ever seen
269
00:14:33,234 --> 00:14:34,634
is Number Ten Downing Street.
270
00:14:35,367 --> 00:14:37,858
- They mention you an' all.
- Yes, I saw.
271
00:14:37,883 --> 00:14:41,684
Yeah? How do you feel, being
talked about in a national newspaper?
272
00:14:42,476 --> 00:14:44,359
You wanted to see me?
273
00:14:44,912 --> 00:14:47,353
Aye. They've brought me my suit,
but no tie.
274
00:14:47,687 --> 00:14:49,749
I was wondering if I could borrow yours.
275
00:14:52,192 --> 00:14:53,429
Right.
276
00:14:53,454 --> 00:14:56,007
I know it's an ask,
but an open-necked shirt
277
00:14:56,032 --> 00:14:58,624
isn't the kind of impression
I want to give out
278
00:14:58,649 --> 00:15:00,421
on the first day of the trial.
279
00:15:03,863 --> 00:15:05,887
Right. I'll leave it with the guard.
280
00:15:05,912 --> 00:15:07,792
My saviour.
281
00:15:07,982 --> 00:15:09,712
I started out with 15 ties,
282
00:15:09,737 --> 00:15:11,833
but now the police have
them all in evidence.
283
00:15:14,991 --> 00:15:17,341
You, the members of the jury,
will be asked
284
00:15:17,366 --> 00:15:21,052
to ascertain this man's state of
mind at the time of the killings
285
00:15:21,077 --> 00:15:23,488
and to decide, as a result,
286
00:15:23,513 --> 00:15:27,919
if he is guilty of the murder
of six innocent young men,
287
00:15:27,944 --> 00:15:30,912
or merely of their manslaughter.
288
00:15:31,066 --> 00:15:35,379
That Mr Nilsen killed these men
is not contested by the defence.
289
00:15:35,404 --> 00:15:36,966
They will argue, however,
290
00:15:36,991 --> 00:15:41,287
that he was out of his mind
when he committed his crimes,
291
00:15:41,312 --> 00:15:44,224
and that he cannot be
held truly accountable.
292
00:15:44,249 --> 00:15:47,026
But I intend to prove that
Mr Nilsen not only
293
00:15:47,051 --> 00:15:48,706
knew what he was doing,
294
00:15:48,737 --> 00:15:53,257
but that these crimes were
premeditated and carefully planned.
295
00:15:53,666 --> 00:15:57,509
He lured 15 innocent young men
296
00:15:57,534 --> 00:15:59,222
back to his home,
297
00:15:59,247 --> 00:16:02,167
before cruelly murdering them.
298
00:16:02,693 --> 00:16:05,174
Mr Nilsen is no madman.
299
00:16:05,199 --> 00:16:07,839
He is intelligent and rational,
300
00:16:07,871 --> 00:16:10,950
possessing the skills
to conceal his crimes,
301
00:16:11,248 --> 00:16:13,722
and manipulate those around him.
302
00:16:13,941 --> 00:16:19,582
He is, in short, an experienced
and calculating killer.
303
00:16:20,706 --> 00:16:24,519
I have spent a total of 14
hours with Dennis Nilsen,
304
00:16:24,544 --> 00:16:27,704
on 16 separate occasions
since his arrest.
305
00:16:27,729 --> 00:16:30,135
You are a forensic psychiatrist,
Dr Hardy?
306
00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:31,336
- Correct.
- Could you share
307
00:16:31,361 --> 00:16:33,258
with the court the clinical evaluation
308
00:16:33,283 --> 00:16:35,696
you made of the defendant
during these many meetings?
309
00:16:35,721 --> 00:16:39,400
Did you find, for example,
any evidence of mental abnormality?
310
00:16:39,425 --> 00:16:41,517
Quite the reverse.
I formed the impression very quickly
311
00:16:41,541 --> 00:16:43,164
that he was a highly intelligent man.
312
00:16:43,189 --> 00:16:47,172
In my view, Nilsen possesses
an extremely rational mind.
313
00:16:47,197 --> 00:16:49,711
He is capable of feeling very deeply
314
00:16:49,736 --> 00:16:53,608
and concealing these feelings in
order to preserve appearances.
315
00:16:53,758 --> 00:16:56,513
Thank you.
No further questions, my Lord.
316
00:16:58,894 --> 00:17:02,862
Dennis Nilsen killed
perhaps 15 young men,
317
00:17:02,887 --> 00:17:04,778
for no apparent reason.
318
00:17:04,803 --> 00:17:07,598
He kept their bodies,
bathed and dressed them,
319
00:17:07,623 --> 00:17:09,504
watched television programmes with them,
320
00:17:09,529 --> 00:17:12,610
conversed with them
about those programmes.
321
00:17:12,635 --> 00:17:16,754
You say you find no evidence
of mental disturbance.
322
00:17:17,207 --> 00:17:20,981
Of course strangling people
is not normal behaviour.
323
00:17:21,006 --> 00:17:23,989
While Nilsen was on remand,
324
00:17:24,014 --> 00:17:28,473
he made a series of
protests and complaints
325
00:17:28,498 --> 00:17:32,367
about his treatment in
Her Majesty's Prison Herne Hill.
326
00:17:32,392 --> 00:17:34,371
Would you not agree that this shows
327
00:17:34,396 --> 00:17:37,051
markedly paranoid tendencies?
328
00:17:37,251 --> 00:17:39,645
Perhaps. In some cases.
329
00:17:39,670 --> 00:17:43,248
And in this case, in fact,
his behaviour became so extreme,
330
00:17:43,273 --> 00:17:49,024
so erratic, that he was recently
put down as a suicide risk.
331
00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:50,999
Could you tell us, Dr Hardy,
332
00:17:51,024 --> 00:17:53,922
who the psychiatrist was
who recommended this step?
333
00:17:55,824 --> 00:17:56,928
I did.
334
00:17:56,953 --> 00:17:58,975
So, would you not agree
335
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,813
that someone at risk of suicide is,
by definition,
336
00:18:01,838 --> 00:18:04,352
suffering a mental disorder?
337
00:18:05,363 --> 00:18:09,766
I suppose, in strict terms,
that is true.
338
00:18:09,791 --> 00:18:12,230
Thank you.
No further questions, my Lord.
339
00:18:33,983 --> 00:18:35,384
Miss Mead?
340
00:18:36,603 --> 00:18:38,843
They're using what happened to Graham,
341
00:18:39,147 --> 00:18:41,125
making it all public,
342
00:18:41,294 --> 00:18:43,328
but he doesn't get justice?
343
00:18:44,352 --> 00:18:45,891
I know.
344
00:18:46,419 --> 00:18:49,939
Look, there are certain details
about his case that can...
345
00:18:49,964 --> 00:18:51,352
You didn't give a shit about him
346
00:18:51,377 --> 00:18:53,500
when you thought he was
just a junkie who OD'd
347
00:18:53,525 --> 00:18:55,644
in a squat or a bedsit somewhere.
348
00:18:55,669 --> 00:18:59,469
But now, you're gonna
bring up every little detail.
349
00:19:02,396 --> 00:19:03,916
I'm sorry.
350
00:19:06,580 --> 00:19:08,301
No, you're not.
351
00:19:09,462 --> 00:19:12,703
Do you have any fucking idea
what you've put me through?
352
00:19:14,084 --> 00:19:16,539
And he won't even get justice?
353
00:19:19,383 --> 00:19:21,641
All you lot care about
354
00:19:21,990 --> 00:19:25,430
is you're the people that
caught Dennis Nilsen.
355
00:19:28,923 --> 00:19:31,736
Peter. We're back in.
356
00:19:44,580 --> 00:19:46,002
So, Mr Stewart,
357
00:19:46,027 --> 00:19:48,027
after meeting him in the Golden Lion,
358
00:19:48,052 --> 00:19:51,025
Mr Nilsen suggested that you
both go back to his residence
359
00:19:51,050 --> 00:19:53,424
- to continue drinking?
- That's right.
360
00:19:53,449 --> 00:19:57,142
195 Melrose Avenue.
I remember it very clearly.
361
00:19:57,167 --> 00:20:00,267
- And what happened next?
- We had a couple more pints.
362
00:20:00,292 --> 00:20:03,532
He offered me vodka but I said,
"It's not my drink".
363
00:20:04,236 --> 00:20:07,424
Then he asked me to go to bed with him.
364
00:20:07,449 --> 00:20:09,517
I said that wasn't my thing either.
365
00:20:09,542 --> 00:20:12,080
So I fell asleep on the sofa.
366
00:20:12,175 --> 00:20:15,674
I woke up, must have
been a few hours later,
367
00:20:15,699 --> 00:20:19,378
and my ankles were
tied together with a tie.
368
00:20:19,701 --> 00:20:22,947
Nilsen was kneeling on my chest,
trying to strangle me.
369
00:20:22,972 --> 00:20:24,291
But I fought him off.
370
00:20:24,316 --> 00:20:26,072
I wasn't going down without a fight.
371
00:20:26,097 --> 00:20:27,814
How did he respond to that?
372
00:20:28,306 --> 00:20:31,307
He started shouting,
"Take my money, take my money!"
373
00:20:31,332 --> 00:20:32,979
Really loud, like.
374
00:20:39,087 --> 00:20:41,869
But you weren't stealing from him?
375
00:20:41,894 --> 00:20:44,838
Seemed like he was trying
to make the neighbours think
376
00:20:44,863 --> 00:20:46,580
he was being attacked himself.
377
00:20:46,605 --> 00:20:49,287
He was trying to create an alibi.
378
00:20:49,312 --> 00:20:52,158
Hardly the act of a man out of his mind.
379
00:20:52,478 --> 00:20:55,049
Thank you, Mr Stewart.
No further questions, my Lord.
380
00:20:55,526 --> 00:20:58,697
In your police statement, Mr Stewart,
381
00:20:58,722 --> 00:21:02,674
you said you stayed for
another drink with Nilsen.
382
00:21:03,067 --> 00:21:06,668
Another drink,
after he allegedly tried to kill you?
383
00:21:07,036 --> 00:21:09,968
Well, I thought that was the
best way to calm him down.
384
00:21:09,993 --> 00:21:11,112
I see.
385
00:21:11,152 --> 00:21:12,236
You mentioned earlier
386
00:21:12,261 --> 00:21:16,301
that you remembered seeing
the address as 195 Melrose Avenue.
387
00:21:16,401 --> 00:21:18,705
How did you remember
the address so clearly?
388
00:21:18,886 --> 00:21:20,886
I saw the number on the door.
389
00:21:21,113 --> 00:21:24,471
You also told us that when
you met him in the pub
390
00:21:24,496 --> 00:21:27,547
the defendant introduced
himself to you as Dennis.
391
00:21:27,572 --> 00:21:29,518
- Yeah.
- And that when you got to his house
392
00:21:29,543 --> 00:21:32,994
to continue your drinking session
together, he offered you vodka.
393
00:21:33,327 --> 00:21:34,607
That's right.
394
00:21:34,632 --> 00:21:37,924
Unfortunately, none of
these things are true, are they?
395
00:21:37,949 --> 00:21:40,229
The defendant's first name may be Dennis
396
00:21:40,254 --> 00:21:43,054
but he always calls himself Des.
397
00:21:43,079 --> 00:21:46,361
He always drinks rum, not vodka,
398
00:21:46,386 --> 00:21:49,713
and there is no number plate
on the house at Melrose Avenue.
399
00:21:49,898 --> 00:21:51,457
There never has been.
400
00:21:51,482 --> 00:21:53,846
I dunno, I thought there was.
401
00:21:53,871 --> 00:21:57,150
Mm, but you seemed so
sure of the details before.
402
00:21:57,175 --> 00:21:58,536
And why might that be?
403
00:21:58,561 --> 00:22:02,960
Why might someone go to the trouble
of furnishing their testimony
404
00:22:02,985 --> 00:22:06,104
with a great deal of specific detail
405
00:22:06,129 --> 00:22:08,905
that seems to be pulled from thin air?
406
00:22:08,930 --> 00:22:11,795
I put it to you, Mr Stewart,
that your testimony to this court
407
00:22:11,820 --> 00:22:13,781
is nothing more than a pack of lies,
408
00:22:13,806 --> 00:22:17,178
dreamt up to satisfy
a tabloid newspaper.
409
00:22:18,529 --> 00:22:21,090
Well, Mr Stewart?
410
00:22:21,732 --> 00:22:24,131
Have you sold your story?
411
00:22:24,904 --> 00:22:28,728
Er... Y... Yes.
412
00:22:29,329 --> 00:22:32,033
No further questions, my Lord.
413
00:22:34,506 --> 00:22:35,827
How dare he!
414
00:22:35,852 --> 00:22:37,915
Standing up there in
that ridiculous suit,
415
00:22:37,940 --> 00:22:39,540
spouting those lies.
416
00:22:39,565 --> 00:22:42,204
So you're saying that
Douglas Stewart is lying?
417
00:22:42,229 --> 00:22:44,348
That you didn't try and kill him?
418
00:22:44,373 --> 00:22:46,938
Yes, I did. But not as he described it.
419
00:22:46,963 --> 00:22:49,477
This is about absolute truth, Brian.
420
00:22:49,813 --> 00:22:52,345
It has to be,
otherwise we don't get any answers.
421
00:22:52,964 --> 00:22:55,023
You cannot possibly believe
422
00:22:55,048 --> 00:22:57,640
that what you put him through
out there was justified.
423
00:22:57,665 --> 00:22:59,913
What are you getting so agitated about?
424
00:22:59,938 --> 00:23:02,860
I'm giving you a wonderful
final act for your book.
425
00:23:03,423 --> 00:23:05,438
Like you said about the book, Brian,
426
00:23:05,463 --> 00:23:07,874
it's not up to us to make
subjective decisions.
427
00:23:07,899 --> 00:23:09,845
We have to remain
objective in all of this.
428
00:23:09,870 --> 00:23:12,587
Thus, it is up to the jury to decide
429
00:23:12,612 --> 00:23:14,259
whether I'm just bad...
430
00:23:14,284 --> 00:23:16,251
or outrageously bad.
431
00:23:25,054 --> 00:23:27,175
- See you back in chambers.
- Thank you.
432
00:23:27,269 --> 00:23:28,924
Did you know he'd sold
his story to the press?
433
00:23:28,948 --> 00:23:29,962
Course I didn't!
434
00:23:29,987 --> 00:23:32,747
We're lucky the judge didn't strike
his testimony from the record.
435
00:23:33,115 --> 00:23:35,290
It can't have harmed us
that much, right?
436
00:23:35,641 --> 00:23:38,016
Stewart's credibility is gone,
his testimony is now useless.
437
00:23:38,041 --> 00:23:39,241
We're in a lot of trouble.
438
00:23:39,266 --> 00:23:40,423
Surely we still have enough?
439
00:23:40,448 --> 00:23:43,089
I mean, we have the tie with the
knotted rope, and Duffey's knives.
440
00:23:43,114 --> 00:23:44,938
All those show premeditation to murder.
441
00:23:44,963 --> 00:23:46,658
Peter, physical evidence
is all very good and well,
442
00:23:46,682 --> 00:23:47,938
but it's also circumstantial.
443
00:23:47,963 --> 00:23:49,493
We had an eye witness, a survivor,
444
00:23:49,518 --> 00:23:52,102
and without that,
we're significantly weaker.
445
00:23:52,797 --> 00:23:54,126
Sorry.
446
00:24:09,333 --> 00:24:10,891
Hello, Carl.
447
00:24:11,277 --> 00:24:12,638
Can I come in?
448
00:24:22,886 --> 00:24:24,606
How have you been?
449
00:24:25,936 --> 00:24:27,936
Things keep coming back to me.
450
00:24:29,731 --> 00:24:31,530
What kind of things?
451
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,040
He said he liked my shoes.
452
00:24:41,896 --> 00:24:43,176
Thank you.
453
00:24:47,090 --> 00:24:51,291
The doctor said it was
all nightmares, caused...
454
00:24:53,290 --> 00:24:57,330
I'd had a bit of a hard
time with an ex of mine.
455
00:24:58,977 --> 00:25:01,898
They even put me on tablets
to block everything out.
456
00:25:08,888 --> 00:25:11,208
Listen, Carl, um...
457
00:25:13,555 --> 00:25:15,755
The trial isn't going how we'd hoped.
458
00:25:16,036 --> 00:25:18,505
We think your testimony
could be crucial.
459
00:25:18,530 --> 00:25:20,442
But I've already given my statement.
460
00:25:20,907 --> 00:25:22,567
The man said that would be enough.
461
00:25:22,592 --> 00:25:25,953
I know, but we need you
to give it in court.
462
00:25:26,913 --> 00:25:28,239
What, with him there?
463
00:25:28,264 --> 00:25:30,755
- You wouldn't have to be close to him.
- No, I can't.
464
00:25:30,780 --> 00:25:34,442
- Carl...
- He killed me, Mr Jay.
465
00:25:34,644 --> 00:25:38,364
And then he... brought me back to life.
466
00:25:38,935 --> 00:25:41,817
I can't imagine what
you've been through, Carl.
467
00:25:42,392 --> 00:25:44,177
I really can't.
468
00:25:45,271 --> 00:25:46,942
But please believe me,
469
00:25:46,967 --> 00:25:49,888
if he gets a lesser sentence,
you'll find no peace.
470
00:25:50,263 --> 00:25:52,662
I'm sorry. I can't...
471
00:25:54,518 --> 00:25:57,439
be in the same room as him.
472
00:25:58,895 --> 00:26:00,724
I can't go back there.
473
00:26:02,993 --> 00:26:05,310
Then they'll subpoena you anyway.
474
00:26:05,335 --> 00:26:07,615
You'll be forced to testify.
475
00:26:10,775 --> 00:26:12,974
So I don't have a choice?
476
00:26:33,430 --> 00:26:36,106
I swear by Almighty God that
the evidence I shall give
477
00:26:36,131 --> 00:26:39,630
shall be the truth, the whole
truth and nothing by the truth.
478
00:26:40,834 --> 00:26:42,763
Could you recount, Mr Stottor,
479
00:26:42,788 --> 00:26:45,489
the events of that night in April 1982,
480
00:26:45,514 --> 00:26:46,953
when you met the defendant?
481
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,688
Where, for example,
did you meet Mr Nilsen?
482
00:26:56,825 --> 00:26:58,872
In The Black Cap, Camden.
483
00:26:59,106 --> 00:27:00,692
I was depressed.
484
00:27:00,997 --> 00:27:03,739
I'd just broken up with someone.
485
00:27:03,764 --> 00:27:06,764
Speak up, please, Mr Stottor.
486
00:27:10,631 --> 00:27:12,110
He was nice to me.
487
00:27:12,489 --> 00:27:14,935
In what sense was he nice?
488
00:27:15,154 --> 00:27:18,161
He bought me drinks.
489
00:27:18,186 --> 00:27:21,386
Er... He asked me about my family.
490
00:27:21,753 --> 00:27:24,153
He asked if you had family?
491
00:27:24,273 --> 00:27:28,993
Yes, and then he invited me
back to his flat for a drink.
492
00:27:29,722 --> 00:27:33,302
Um... We just drank
a lot and then he said
493
00:27:33,327 --> 00:27:35,778
I could go to sleep on his bed.
494
00:27:35,803 --> 00:27:38,583
And then he warned me not to get caught
495
00:27:38,608 --> 00:27:40,888
in the zip of the sleeping bag.
496
00:27:41,069 --> 00:27:42,349
Why do you think that was?
497
00:27:42,374 --> 00:27:44,534
Was it perhaps because
he was planning an alibi
498
00:27:44,559 --> 00:27:46,786
- in case you managed to escape?
- Objection, my Lord.
499
00:27:46,811 --> 00:27:49,052
- Leading.
- Sustained.
500
00:27:49,141 --> 00:27:51,341
Tell us what happened next.
501
00:27:58,144 --> 00:28:00,208
I woke up and I couldn't breathe.
502
00:28:00,629 --> 00:28:04,169
He was behind me and...
503
00:28:04,194 --> 00:28:06,794
I could feel something
digging into my neck.
504
00:28:08,271 --> 00:28:11,106
The pressure got worse...
505
00:28:11,459 --> 00:28:13,669
and the pain was unbearable.
506
00:28:13,694 --> 00:28:15,408
I couldn't see,
507
00:28:15,433 --> 00:28:18,333
or speak, or swallow.
508
00:28:18,358 --> 00:28:21,052
And I could hear him saying,
"Keep still".
509
00:28:22,127 --> 00:28:25,380
The next thing I knew, I was in water.
510
00:28:26,428 --> 00:28:30,114
In a bath. Being pushed down.
Again and again.
511
00:28:30,185 --> 00:28:34,184
And I didn't know where I
was or what was happening.
512
00:28:34,209 --> 00:28:37,825
And I swallowed water.
513
00:28:38,252 --> 00:28:42,091
I couldn't resist any more
and I realised...
514
00:28:42,966 --> 00:28:45,278
that I was dying.
515
00:28:46,734 --> 00:28:48,388
Thank you, Mr Stottor.
516
00:28:48,413 --> 00:28:50,231
No further questions, my Lord.
517
00:28:50,511 --> 00:28:54,224
You have an alter-ego,
Mr Stottor, do you not?
518
00:28:54,763 --> 00:28:56,922
Khara Le Fox.
519
00:28:57,091 --> 00:28:58,802
A drag act.
520
00:28:58,827 --> 00:29:00,911
You're a female impersonator.
521
00:29:00,936 --> 00:29:02,528
I used to be, yes.
522
00:29:02,553 --> 00:29:05,317
You've already been asked, Mr Stottor,
523
00:29:05,342 --> 00:29:07,153
if you could speak up
524
00:29:07,178 --> 00:29:09,528
for the benefit of the court?
525
00:29:09,872 --> 00:29:11,012
Yes.
526
00:29:11,998 --> 00:29:13,473
But...
527
00:29:14,046 --> 00:29:18,565
since the attack,
I'm not able to sing any more.
528
00:29:18,590 --> 00:29:21,751
And you had several
relationships with men,
529
00:29:21,776 --> 00:29:25,008
including one which became abusive.
530
00:29:25,033 --> 00:29:28,839
Your night with Nilsen was, therefore,
531
00:29:28,864 --> 00:29:31,895
not your first violent
homosexual encounter...
532
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,505
My Lord, I must object
to this line of questioning.
533
00:29:34,530 --> 00:29:36,809
A history of deviant encounters
534
00:29:36,834 --> 00:29:40,169
raises the possibility of
a sex game gone wrong, my Lord.
535
00:29:40,194 --> 00:29:43,270
Sustained. Move on, Mr Lawrence.
536
00:29:43,728 --> 00:29:46,317
Now, could you tell us, Mr Stottor,
537
00:29:46,342 --> 00:29:49,832
where you woke up after
you had been in the bath?
538
00:29:50,794 --> 00:29:52,033
On the bed.
539
00:29:52,072 --> 00:29:55,832
On the bed. And was
the room warm or cold?
540
00:29:56,309 --> 00:29:57,442
Warm.
541
00:29:57,467 --> 00:29:59,645
Nilsen had heated the room, had he not?
542
00:29:59,670 --> 00:30:03,028
He had put on all the
bars on the electric fire.
543
00:30:04,238 --> 00:30:07,158
Yes, I suppose so.
544
00:30:07,254 --> 00:30:10,715
And how long after
you woke up did you leave the flat?
545
00:30:10,740 --> 00:30:15,637
Well, I kept falling asleep,
so maybe one or two days.
546
00:30:15,662 --> 00:30:17,356
One or two days.
547
00:30:17,381 --> 00:30:20,731
Did Nilsen keep you under duress?
548
00:30:20,756 --> 00:30:25,950
No, but I was very confused...
549
00:30:26,075 --> 00:30:28,278
and also in a lot of pain.
550
00:30:28,303 --> 00:30:29,700
Did he, in fact,
551
00:30:29,725 --> 00:30:33,725
walk you to the tube station
when you wanted to go?
552
00:30:34,562 --> 00:30:35,681
Yes.
553
00:30:35,706 --> 00:30:39,623
This supposedly cold
and calculating killer,
554
00:30:39,648 --> 00:30:41,990
with every opportunity
to finish the job,
555
00:30:42,015 --> 00:30:45,912
instead let you sleep
in a warm bed for days,
556
00:30:45,937 --> 00:30:48,365
before seeing you home safely.
557
00:30:48,390 --> 00:30:51,630
In fact, aside from the incident itself,
558
00:30:51,655 --> 00:30:56,310
did he not show you more care
and kindness that evening
559
00:30:56,335 --> 00:31:00,240
than anyone else in your life
had done for a very long time?
560
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:04,159
Yes.
561
00:31:06,809 --> 00:31:08,769
That's what I can't understand.
562
00:31:09,903 --> 00:31:12,262
Is he my murderer or my saviour?
563
00:31:13,493 --> 00:31:17,701
How peculiar that is.
564
00:31:18,907 --> 00:31:21,154
No further questions, my Lord.
565
00:31:22,774 --> 00:31:25,014
You may step down, Mr Stottor.
566
00:31:30,553 --> 00:31:32,033
You did really well in there.
567
00:31:32,295 --> 00:31:33,426
Listen, Carl...
568
00:31:33,451 --> 00:31:34,928
I want to go home now.
569
00:31:37,976 --> 00:31:40,810
He should have killed you, you queer!
570
00:32:03,713 --> 00:32:05,185
Mr Jay...
571
00:32:13,179 --> 00:32:15,670
I feel I owe you an apology.
572
00:32:17,416 --> 00:32:19,107
You were right.
573
00:32:19,979 --> 00:32:21,428
He's not insane.
574
00:32:22,147 --> 00:32:25,271
He knew exactly what he was doing.
575
00:32:26,177 --> 00:32:30,736
As much then as he does now.
576
00:33:24,349 --> 00:33:25,829
Detective, are you confident?
577
00:33:25,854 --> 00:33:28,253
Do you think you'll get justice
for the victims, Detective?
578
00:33:28,716 --> 00:33:31,076
In the following days
you interviewed him at length.
579
00:33:31,101 --> 00:33:32,512
Is that correct?
580
00:33:32,545 --> 00:33:35,646
Yes, we interviewed
him for a total of 31 hours.
581
00:33:35,671 --> 00:33:37,112
And in those 31 hours,
582
00:33:37,137 --> 00:33:40,618
did Mr Nilsen ever mention
visions or voices in his head
583
00:33:40,643 --> 00:33:43,076
- telling him to commit his crimes?
- No.
584
00:33:43,101 --> 00:33:44,357
Did he ever show any signs at all
585
00:33:44,381 --> 00:33:46,506
of being out of his mind, so to speak,
586
00:33:46,531 --> 00:33:48,514
or mentally unwell in any way?
587
00:33:48,553 --> 00:33:50,305
No. Quite the opposite, in fact.
588
00:33:50,330 --> 00:33:53,473
He seemed... calm.
589
00:33:53,667 --> 00:33:56,175
Collected. In control.
590
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,440
- Hardly a madman.
- No.
591
00:33:58,665 --> 00:34:00,385
Detective Chief Inspector Jay,
592
00:34:00,410 --> 00:34:01,602
could you please tell the court,
593
00:34:01,626 --> 00:34:03,888
for how long have you
been a police officer?
594
00:34:04,058 --> 00:34:05,742
Almost 23 years.
595
00:34:05,767 --> 00:34:07,879
And based on those years of experience,
596
00:34:07,904 --> 00:34:11,416
what is your professional
opinion of Dennis Nilsen?
597
00:34:13,947 --> 00:34:16,764
I've seen criminals in
all shapes and sizes.
598
00:34:17,986 --> 00:34:19,101
When they're on remand,
599
00:34:19,126 --> 00:34:21,935
they ask to be visited
by all sorts of people,
600
00:34:22,230 --> 00:34:25,159
priests, rabbis, imams.
601
00:34:25,557 --> 00:34:28,561
I even had a fella who
asked for a shaman.
602
00:34:29,373 --> 00:34:33,384
Because most of them are
just wanting forgiveness.
603
00:34:35,297 --> 00:34:36,700
Mr Nilsen's only visitor
604
00:34:36,725 --> 00:34:39,080
in the eight months
whilst he was on remand
605
00:34:39,417 --> 00:34:41,033
was a biographer.
606
00:34:42,727 --> 00:34:45,834
In my opinion, he's a remorseless coward
607
00:34:45,859 --> 00:34:49,080
who killed innocent and
vulnerable men as they slept.
608
00:34:50,647 --> 00:34:52,190
Thank you, Detective Chief Inspector.
609
00:34:52,215 --> 00:34:53,994
No further questions, my Lord.
610
00:34:54,564 --> 00:34:56,430
Detective Chief Inspector,
611
00:34:56,455 --> 00:35:00,919
you say you interviewed
Nilsen for 31 hours, yes?
612
00:35:00,944 --> 00:35:01,944
That's right.
613
00:35:01,969 --> 00:35:05,770
In all that time of him
talking almost incessantly,
614
00:35:05,795 --> 00:35:10,514
did he ever mention
planning the murders at all?
615
00:35:11,818 --> 00:35:13,047
No.
616
00:35:13,490 --> 00:35:15,507
No further questions, my Lord.
617
00:35:15,772 --> 00:35:17,375
You may step down, Officer.
618
00:35:17,574 --> 00:35:18,760
Thank you.
619
00:35:20,238 --> 00:35:22,723
We have an old Latin phrase in the law,
620
00:35:22,748 --> 00:35:24,591
"Res ipsa loquitur",
621
00:35:24,616 --> 00:35:26,700
"The act speaks for itself."
622
00:35:26,967 --> 00:35:29,342
What sort of man kills people,
623
00:35:29,367 --> 00:35:32,144
lives with their bodies
rotting under the floorboards,
624
00:35:32,169 --> 00:35:36,036
and flushes pieces of
them down the lavatory?
625
00:35:36,061 --> 00:35:40,513
Do these seem to you the actions
of a man in his right mind?
626
00:35:40,777 --> 00:35:43,582
If you think, as we invite you to think,
627
00:35:43,607 --> 00:35:45,727
and as the evidence surely shows,
628
00:35:45,752 --> 00:35:49,704
that these crimes were not
planned or premeditated,
629
00:35:49,729 --> 00:35:53,398
but were due to Nilsen's
seriously abnormal personality
630
00:35:53,423 --> 00:35:54,698
and way of thinking,
631
00:35:54,723 --> 00:35:57,848
then you will find him
not guilty of murder,
632
00:35:57,873 --> 00:36:02,389
but guilty of manslaughter by
way of diminished responsibility.
633
00:36:02,530 --> 00:36:05,811
That is the verdict which
we invite you to return.
634
00:36:08,665 --> 00:36:10,426
What's taking them so long?
635
00:36:11,780 --> 00:36:14,840
Same again? Wee ones?
636
00:36:37,632 --> 00:36:39,513
Madam Foreman of the jury.
637
00:36:41,132 --> 00:36:44,092
Have you reached verdicts
on which you are all agreed?
638
00:36:44,772 --> 00:36:46,408
No, we have not.
639
00:36:48,096 --> 00:36:52,105
Might you reach a verdict if
the court sits until early evening?
640
00:36:52,355 --> 00:36:54,477
I don't believe so, your Honour.
641
00:36:54,502 --> 00:36:56,977
Very well. You will retire overnight.
642
00:36:57,002 --> 00:36:59,002
The court will reconvene in the morning
643
00:36:59,027 --> 00:37:01,786
where I will accept a majority verdict.
644
00:37:08,710 --> 00:37:10,231
More time's now being spent
645
00:37:10,256 --> 00:37:12,852
on what's possibly
wrong with Dennis Nilsen
646
00:37:12,877 --> 00:37:14,758
than what he's actually done.
647
00:37:14,918 --> 00:37:19,258
A man who has described himself as
the "murderer of the century".
648
00:37:19,283 --> 00:37:23,313
A defence psychiatrist said Nilsen
acted as if he were the judge,
649
00:37:23,338 --> 00:37:25,978
judging this case of an infamous crime.
650
00:37:26,003 --> 00:37:27,056
He shows off.
651
00:37:27,081 --> 00:37:30,465
He really believes he is the most
important person of the century.
652
00:37:30,490 --> 00:37:34,308
The defence expert found another
way of describing Nilsen's mind.
653
00:37:34,333 --> 00:37:36,559
"His personality was like his house.
654
00:37:36,584 --> 00:37:38,960
"It looked perfectly all
right from the outside,
655
00:37:38,985 --> 00:37:41,801
"but perhaps there was something
of a funny smell about it,
656
00:37:41,826 --> 00:37:43,612
"and when you looked
under the floorboards,
657
00:37:43,637 --> 00:37:45,518
"you would find horrors."
658
00:37:46,024 --> 00:37:47,767
The jury is returning.
659
00:38:15,939 --> 00:38:18,136
Would the foreman of
the jury please stand?
660
00:38:20,784 --> 00:38:22,184
Madam Foreman,
661
00:38:22,209 --> 00:38:24,840
do you have a majority on your verdicts?
662
00:38:25,332 --> 00:38:26,623
We do.
663
00:38:27,067 --> 00:38:30,125
On the charge of the
murder of Stephen Sinclair,
664
00:38:30,150 --> 00:38:32,150
how do you find the defendant?
665
00:38:33,465 --> 00:38:34,784
Guilty.
666
00:38:35,835 --> 00:38:39,059
On the charge of the murder
of Kenneth Ockenden,
667
00:38:39,173 --> 00:38:40,948
how do you find the defendant?
668
00:38:41,132 --> 00:38:42,305
Guilty.
669
00:38:42,344 --> 00:38:45,304
On the charge of
the murder of John Howlett,
670
00:38:45,702 --> 00:38:47,795
how do you find the defendant?
671
00:38:47,820 --> 00:38:48,831
Guilty.
672
00:38:48,856 --> 00:38:51,474
On the charge of
the murder of Martyn Duffey,
673
00:38:51,499 --> 00:38:53,229
how do you find the defendant?
674
00:38:53,254 --> 00:38:54,684
Guilty.
675
00:38:54,709 --> 00:38:57,657
On the charge of
the murder of Billy Sutherland,
676
00:38:57,682 --> 00:38:59,603
how do you find the defendant?
677
00:38:59,628 --> 00:39:00,989
Guilty.
678
00:39:01,014 --> 00:39:03,285
On the charge of
the murder of Malcolm Barlow,
679
00:39:03,313 --> 00:39:04,855
how do you find the defendant?
680
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:06,346
Guilty.
681
00:39:06,371 --> 00:39:09,947
On the charge of the attempted
murder of Douglas Stewart,
682
00:39:09,972 --> 00:39:11,588
how do you find the defendant?
683
00:39:11,613 --> 00:39:12,923
Guilty.
684
00:39:13,257 --> 00:39:16,536
On the charge of the attempted
murder of Paul Nobbs,
685
00:39:16,769 --> 00:39:18,889
how do you find the defendant?
686
00:39:19,050 --> 00:39:20,329
Guilty.
687
00:39:22,186 --> 00:39:24,386
Dennis Andrew Nilsen,
688
00:39:24,411 --> 00:39:27,397
your victims were innocent young men,
689
00:39:27,422 --> 00:39:30,636
guilty only of accepting
your hospitality,
690
00:39:30,661 --> 00:39:35,536
whereupon you ended
their lives cruelly and callously,
691
00:39:35,561 --> 00:39:39,796
for reasons that will
remain known only to you.
692
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:45,265
The sentence for murder is fixed in law.
693
00:39:45,290 --> 00:39:47,289
It is imprisonment for life,
694
00:39:47,314 --> 00:39:50,113
and that is the sentence
which I pass on you
695
00:39:50,138 --> 00:39:53,631
on each count of this indictment.
696
00:39:55,431 --> 00:39:56,991
Take him down.
697
00:40:27,801 --> 00:40:29,917
Mr Jay. Well done.
698
00:40:29,942 --> 00:40:31,941
It went down to the wire
at the end, didn't it?
699
00:40:31,966 --> 00:40:33,780
You must be pleased it's over.
700
00:40:35,965 --> 00:40:39,046
If at any time in the future
you remember any more names...
701
00:40:40,773 --> 00:40:42,213
please write to me.
702
00:40:42,993 --> 00:40:44,853
I promise you'll be the first to know.
703
00:40:45,694 --> 00:40:47,296
I think the jury got it
right in the end.
704
00:40:47,321 --> 00:40:49,146
- Yeah.
- I don't think I'm mad.
705
00:40:50,152 --> 00:40:52,873
If you hadn't caught me that day...
706
00:40:54,852 --> 00:40:57,739
it'd be 115, not 15.
707
00:40:59,016 --> 00:41:00,856
I could never have stopped.
708
00:41:03,966 --> 00:41:05,285
Okay.
709
00:41:06,739 --> 00:41:08,343
Good luck.
710
00:41:38,457 --> 00:41:40,258
What will you do with it all?
711
00:41:40,283 --> 00:41:44,359
Oh, I don't know.
Chuck most of it, probably.
712
00:41:49,501 --> 00:41:52,043
Mr Jay... um...
713
00:41:52,193 --> 00:41:54,314
do you mind if I ask you a question?
714
00:41:55,237 --> 00:41:56,436
Go on.
715
00:41:56,724 --> 00:42:01,325
When you first met him,
did you believe him straight away?
716
00:42:03,053 --> 00:42:04,529
Yes, I did.
717
00:42:05,699 --> 00:42:07,569
What went through your
mind at that moment?
718
00:42:07,594 --> 00:42:09,753
Well, I thought, um...
719
00:42:15,001 --> 00:42:16,561
Honestly?
720
00:42:20,197 --> 00:42:22,958
The first thing I thought was,
"I hope that I'm up to this."
721
00:42:22,983 --> 00:42:25,463
Don't put that in your book.
722
00:42:26,742 --> 00:42:28,422
You have my word.
723
00:42:31,557 --> 00:42:34,224
- And about my book...
- No, look, it's fine.
724
00:42:37,247 --> 00:42:39,678
We both had our way of looking at this.
725
00:42:43,272 --> 00:42:46,433
Well, what will they do with this place?
726
00:42:46,949 --> 00:42:48,862
I don't know.
727
00:42:49,988 --> 00:42:52,640
Sell it or rent it out, I'd imagine.
728
00:42:53,585 --> 00:42:56,205
Who'd want to live here? I mean, it's...
729
00:42:56,921 --> 00:43:00,090
There's the smell for one thing.
730
00:43:02,102 --> 00:43:03,840
D'you know the worst thing?
731
00:43:06,339 --> 00:43:08,460
I don't smell it any more.
732
00:43:14,389 --> 00:43:16,190
I'll see you outside.
733
00:43:28,824 --> 00:43:31,326
So, how have you been?
734
00:43:31,383 --> 00:43:32,533
Ah, you know.
735
00:43:33,225 --> 00:43:36,297
Adjusting to being
a permanent resident, and all.
736
00:43:37,021 --> 00:43:39,167
Apart from that, not too bad.
737
00:43:39,698 --> 00:43:41,658
I read your book. My book.
738
00:43:41,826 --> 00:43:43,151
What did you think?
739
00:43:43,182 --> 00:43:46,943
To be honest, Brian,
I found it absolutely terrifying.
740
00:43:48,508 --> 00:43:50,133
But it's good, yeah.
741
00:43:50,158 --> 00:43:51,880
Much better than I expected.
742
00:43:52,101 --> 00:43:54,068
Of course, I have some thoughts.
743
00:43:56,068 --> 00:43:58,230
Please don't be discouraged
by my observations.
744
00:43:58,255 --> 00:44:01,248
I've lost none of my respect
or admiration for you,
745
00:44:01,273 --> 00:44:02,605
or your work.
746
00:44:08,408 --> 00:44:10,339
Oh, well, thank you. Um...
747
00:44:10,738 --> 00:44:12,761
I'm sure it'll be very helpful.
748
00:44:12,902 --> 00:44:15,542
My biggest concern is you
didn't name any of the victims.
749
00:44:15,744 --> 00:44:18,336
No, I-I wanted to respect their privacy.
750
00:44:18,595 --> 00:44:21,241
Well, I think it's disrespectful
not naming them.
751
00:44:22,503 --> 00:44:23,748
I robbed them of their life.
752
00:44:23,773 --> 00:44:25,637
Please don't rob them
of their identities.
753
00:44:27,799 --> 00:44:29,650
And the title,
754
00:44:30,659 --> 00:44:33,042
Killing For Company, is a little...
755
00:44:33,632 --> 00:44:34,828
Ah.
756
00:44:35,325 --> 00:44:37,171
It should just be Nilsen.
757
00:44:37,772 --> 00:44:39,331
No.
758
00:44:39,442 --> 00:44:40,623
Why not?
759
00:44:41,417 --> 00:44:43,045
Book is about me, after all.
760
00:44:43,070 --> 00:44:45,112
I'm not going to call it Nilsen.
761
00:44:45,137 --> 00:44:47,810
This isn't your book.
It's not about you.
762
00:44:48,313 --> 00:44:50,410
It's about how someone
like you came to be.
763
00:44:50,435 --> 00:44:52,356
I told you when we first met
764
00:44:52,381 --> 00:44:56,042
that I wasn't going to use
grisly or emotive adjectives,
765
00:44:56,067 --> 00:44:58,059
and I have stuck to my word.
766
00:44:59,032 --> 00:45:01,049
But make no mistake,
767
00:45:01,074 --> 00:45:03,102
this isn't a celebration.
768
00:45:04,055 --> 00:45:06,256
It's a warning.
769
00:45:10,514 --> 00:45:13,337
You know, there were only
12 victims, not 15.
770
00:45:16,275 --> 00:45:19,374
When I sat in the back of the police car
the night of my arrest,
771
00:45:19,399 --> 00:45:21,286
they asked me how many there were,
and I wasn't very sure,
772
00:45:21,310 --> 00:45:23,763
so I just gave them
a figure, "15 or 16".
773
00:45:25,771 --> 00:45:28,756
And three... three of those
victims were invented,
774
00:45:29,682 --> 00:45:33,018
just to complement the continuity
of evidence for the police.
775
00:45:33,043 --> 00:45:34,763
Keep them happy.
776
00:45:36,207 --> 00:45:39,207
Everybody has had a chance to
write their version of my story.
777
00:45:39,232 --> 00:45:40,738
When's it my turn?
778
00:45:49,182 --> 00:45:52,023
I'll send you a copy
when it's published.
779
00:45:52,910 --> 00:45:54,708
Come and see me again.