[Jason] When I was young,
I had a lot of bad behavior, you know.
ADD, ADHD, the whole nine.
I went to this therapist, that therapist.
It sucked, dude. No offense.
[Orna] No, no, I get it.
You know, I've been on the Mellaril,
the Vistaril, the Ritalin.
I was on all of it, you know? - Yeah.
My mom found a world-renowned guy,
made a board game.
Dr. [bleep] was his name.
I still remember it.
- I know the name. - [Jason] I still remember it.
And I got that guy so pissed,
he grabbed me by my shirt and dragged me out.
My mother was standing in the hallway.
And this guy was world-renowned.
I know. I won.
I won that one. I won that interaction.
♪ funky music playing ♪
♪ percussive music playing ♪
[Orna] In couples therapy, nothing is what it seems.
There are all these ways
that we can project onto other people
that are just based on nothing but our own fantasies.
As you get to know them further,
the picture changes so much.
[excited chatter]
It's not unusual
when a couple's treatment is progressing really well
for couples to surprise me
with suddenly toying with the idea of maybe breaking up.
Suddenly, there's a feeling of, do we really still want this?
I think it's important for me
not to rush in and try to influence.
They need to experience that as their own choice.
[birds tweeting]
[Chris] I was just, like, spinning
and spinning and spinning.
And I woke up really early,
and I was just staring at the back of her head.
I was like, "What if there are still vestiges of like,
no, maybe I don't want to be with you?"
And-- And then I thought, "I'll just ask."
And I know she'll tell me.
And so I asked her and she said,
"No, I don't have any need to do that."
Need to abandon you.
[Chris] To like leave, or--
Yeah. - [Sienna] Yeah.
I think I've just been really afraid of those
feelings that are so big that seem dark.
Meaning like rage?
- [Sienna] Like anger and rage. - Yeah.
And demanding anything from anyone.
And, like, this week too, I had moments where I was like,
"I'm so mad at you.
I'm fucking mad at you."
And he's like, "I know." And I'm like, "I know."
Before, I would just be, like, fucking terrified.
Like, just let it pass.
And I don't care if, like, she feels it,
but she holds it in.
Like, I just don't want it directed at me.
And now I'm like, okay, let's work with it.
How does she feel?
It's almost like honestly
a physical softness that has...
That lives within you now.
- Before, like... - Yeah.
The shark eyes, the tense body, the redness.
- Fucking sphincter... - Yeah.
...like I'd just be like, "Ooh!"
Oh, my gosh. The sphincter.
His butt used to be so tight.
Not the sphincter, just the-- The cheeks.
He would stand, and it was always clenched.
And now I'm like, "Oh!"
Like, I'll pat his tush.
And I'm like, oh yeah, it's a normal tush.
Not like a rock. - I think my ass was
clenched from like four or five
- until like... - Four months ago.
- ...six months. - Yeah.
Oh, my God.
I think now it's like
we've got this time
and we're going to be together and, like, let's go.
And that's an interesting thing,
is the forgiveness aspect.
- The pain does actually lessen. - Mm-hmm.
But I don't think I've ever had to forgive anyone.
So this feels really...
new.
And I feel-- I feel myself keep--
Like, I keep thinking like, "Am I doing it right?
Am I doing it right?"
What do you mean?
Like, is this the way one forgives?
I have this need to, like, do it the right way
because then it will work.
Like, how people say love is a verb.
I feel like forgiveness is a verb.
Like, it is something I will do every day.
And I forgive myself for 13 years
of making myself small to fit you.
But I like forgiving you. It feels good.
I want-- I have a couple of thoughts
that I wanted to just run by you, um...
First of all, I'm just noticing Chris, again,
just to say back to you
what the two of you already know,
but that your feelings catch up with you slowly.
And it's really great that you're
paying attention to those. - Yeah.
And now I know.
Before I was like, I know I'm feeling,
but I'm also not feeling this.
So what is going on?
Like, am I a sociopath?
Like, what is this?
And now I know it's just
being pushed away for now.
And it's gonna come... - Right.
- ...when it comes and so... - Right.
- Yeah. - ...just accept it.
- And you made room for it to come.
- [Chris] Yeah. - So that's great.
I also, um, want to say
that it was really wonderful
to feel your more full presence...
- [laughs] - ...when you got mad.
- Thank you. - [Orna] Yeah.
You're just more here.
Both of you are more here, which is really,
- really lovely. - Yeah.
And I just want to mark that you, for example,
allowing yourself to feel more anger
might put you in a difficult spot,
considering your mom.
Yeah.
So, just to mark that and think about it.
Oh, yeah, that--
I marked that right away.
Reminding myself constantly
that you're my safe place.
- Even when angry. - Yes, exactly.
Right, you probably need
to kind of rehearse it and get familiar with it.
I think what's more present, though, right now
is like that I may need to, like, have...
an outlet, you know?
- Yeah. - And I don't know what that is.
Maybe it's like kickboxing class or...
Bring Tae Bo back.
Right, but you're still thinking
the outlet needs to be somewhere else.
And not that it shouldn't,
but what about between the two of you?
- Yeah. - I don't know.
I don't know how. [laughing]
- That's not true. You did. - [Sienna] I'm scared.
I did. I did.
- You did. - [Orna] You do know how.
What was remarkable
was your being present with big feelings,
but also very kind and logical.
[Sienna] Yeah.
Very different from your mother.
Yeah, and we can both trust that,
that I'm still there, - Yeah. So different. Yeah.
even though I have big feelings.
- [Orna] Yeah. - Yeah.
I think that one of the things that threw me, too,
is my mom was all emotion.
- [Orna] Yeah. - Nothing else.
[Orna] Yeah.
That's not the case with you at all.
I-I-I feel really good about us.
This has been...
like a second chance.
Like, it feels like we're getting married again.
It feels like we're saying, like,
- "Okay, here we go." - I feel the same way.
It's crazy because we have three kids,
but it feels like we're starting right now.
♪ electronic ambient music playing ♪
[Orna] They came in in a real crisis,
not sure if they are gonna make it.
And they came out so strong.
They realized that they--
Oh, they can actually deal with it.
She can be angry. He can be present to her anger.
They were like, "Oh my God, we...
We can be in the presence of each other,
with all of our complexities."
And their relationship turned into
like a much richer relationship.
[meowing]
Oh, hello!
[Jason] Good boy.
And then what's 25?
[Orna] Both Marjorie and Jason,
they're very eager to make use of therapy.
They're fast learners,
and they're also fast forgetters.
[Virginia] Even after he has this feeling like,
- "Well, that was better." - [Orna] Yeah.
The next time he's triggered,
he forgets everything.
I know, and I said a few times--
There were sessions in which I said,
"I guess we've done nothing here."
- Oh. - [laughs]
That's the thing he's-- That's where he needs work.
[Orna] Yeah, and it's not just Jason who's impulsive.
It's Marjorie too.
They do a lot in the session.
It seems to get all better.
And then they go back home
and it's like Groundhog Day.
It starts all over again.
[Marjorie] I wanted to start the session
before Jason starts talking.
[all laugh]
Uh-huh.
Because I've been reflecting on the past few months,
and I feel like we are getting so much better,
but then we had like a huge fight yesterday, you know,
and it's about something major.
No, I mean, Marjorie, um...
had an inclination that Ryan, our son, had...
ADHD.
Right.
So Marjorie went to a doctor
and have him diagnosed.
Didn't go out like that, though.
And I didn't know.
I didn't go get him diagnosed.
Went to the pediatrician on his yearly eval.
[Jason] All I got was hit yesterday with,
"Ryan got a diagnosis.
They want to put him on medicine."
- That's not how it went at all. - "Yay or nay?"
And I lost my mind.
- He's presenting it... - I got the text.
...to you awful.
- [Orna] All right, let's...
- It's not fair. - Well, I'm not trying.
- That's how I feel, you know? - [Orna] Pause, pause.
Just say the truth, not how you feel.
Actually, in a way, you can listen to each other,
not looking for "the truth,"
but looking for how did my partner experience this?
- [Jason] Perceive it. Yes. - It's a very subjective thing.
- Fair enough. - So Jason's experience is,
you "hit him" with...
Yes. And I--
And that was brutal for me.
I was very upset about this.
Talk about your upset.
[Jason] I was-- I was extremely upset.
I felt like she did it because she was afraid of me,
you know, shooting that idea down.
So I feel like it was kind of done in a sneaky way.
Do you understand what's
upsetting to Jason? - [Marjorie] Yes.
Can you convey that to him?
I hear a hundred percent. He feels left out.
He feels I did something behind his back.
- And he's really upset about it. - [Orna] Yeah.
Do you want to talk about your perspective now?
And I'm gonna ask you to do the same kind of listening.
Yes. I haven't told him everything
because it was all text messages.
It was a quick phone call, he was at work.
So this will be the first time you're hearing it.
Ryan is struggling in school,
and I am talking to the physician.
And I had told him some of my worries and concerns.
And he said, "Well, we can absolutely do the assessment."
It was a form that a parent fills out,
and you send it to the school for the teacher.
And yes, I did not tell you about that
because I was worried about your reaction.
And for that, I am sorry.
You went behind my back,
sent fax and emails about this whole situation.
And I should have told you, and I'm sorry.
- That's bullshit. - I was worried about your...
The reaction I got yesterday - I don't care.
- is why I didn't tell him. - He's not going.
I'll pull him right from that pediatrician.
He'll never go there again. Never again.
I do want to remind you, Jason,
even though I can understand why that would be
absolutely infuriating for you,
you also do things without asking Marjorie.
The two of you operate kind of solo,
like you send a letter to her mother
that you know will be terribly upsetting.
So then maybe I started a whole thing then.
It's not about who started.
I want you both to acknowledge
that you're not operating as a team.
You can say, "I do the same thing
and this is not good for us."
- [Jason] No, it's not. - "How are we getting out of this
each operating solo?"
[Marjorie] But I still haven't told you everything yet.
I got a phone call yesterday from the pediatrician,
and he was telling me all the options,
and he said there's one particular medication.
There was two, but he said the one would be best
because it's not addict--
He said it's Adderall. He said it's a capsule. You can put--
- Yo. - Let me finish.
- I can't even listen to this... - I'm not even--
...because I wasn't even there during the conversation.
I don't care about any of this. - Because I--
First of all, so, you're... - Marjorie.
- ...you're supposed to listen... - Marjorie. Marjorie.
...to me and repeat back... - I don't care about it.
...what I'm saying.
- Marjorie... - [Jason] I do, but I don't care.
- Stop. [Jason] You're not telling me
how you feel. - Stop.
[Jason] You're telling me the details about what happens.
Because I haven't been able to talk about it.
[Orna] Marjorie... Marjorie. One of the reasons
Jason was particularly sensitive to this issue
had to do with his history.
- Yes. - So you have to be aware
of who you're speaking to.
- I understand that. - The Adderall?
I know guys that buy Adderall on the streets.
I understand that.
- So, you can't expect this-- - I understand that.
But I can't every time I say the fucking word Adderall
or medication in regards to our son and my son,
I can't have him shut me down immediately
because at the end of the day, it's my kid too.
- It is not just your son. - It is.
- And if I need to-- - It is.
So this is a difficult situation
where, Jason, you're gonna be triggered
by what you're hearing.
- I am really triggered. - [Orna] Yeah.
So take a deep breath
and say to yourself,
"All I need to do right now is listen."
And it's understandable. I understand it.
Because you have this addiction history,
because you have your own history.
That doesn't mean Ryan is like you.
Like, you just shut it completely down,
and then you just immediately threaten divorce.
And that is...
That is what I'm more upset about,
is that we can't even work this through
and I have to be submissive again.
And then like, I'm a shitty mom.
I didn't do everything I could to try to help him.
What do you hear?
What do you hear that matters to Marjorie?
[Jason] I'll give you what matters.
You care about Ryan.
You care about him over the medicine,
over the diagnosis.
The main thing you want
is that he is successful,
happy, and thrives.
That's what you want.
That's what matters the most to you, right?
Yes, he's right. That's what matters to me.
My son's happiness, safety, health
and success. - [Orna] Yeah.
As-- As me.
So you both care about your son deeply
and you have different ideas of how to go about it.
[Jason] Wildly different ideas.
I don't know if they're so wild.
I don't know if they're wildly different.
Medicine would never be an option for me
unless we tried every other--
I understand what you're saying, but we're monitoring it.
I don't know how you go straight to medicine.
Like, why wouldn't you put him in counseling first?
Why can't he talk to a therapist?
I have a suggestion for you.
- [Jason] Yeah. - I have a suggestion.
Everything that you're saying, can you use a tone
that is gentle and at least sounds open?
Like you're actually having a conversation.
I understand you want to get him treated, Marge.
And I think that there's some other alternatives out there
that were, uh, outside of medicine.
I think with a little hard work between you and I,
I think a little discipline and structure in our house
and not chalk it up to him
possibly getting medicated for ADD or ADHD.
Jason, it's a good moment to stop and see how it's landing.
I'm surprised because when we talk,
you always tell me he doesn't have it.
You won't even acknowledge that he got a diagnosis.
- No. - You won't do any education.
No, because I'd rather bring him to a professional
that deals with that, not a pediatrician
doing a wellness visit.
- That's a compromise. - Okay. No problem.
Now let's fix things.
[Jason] I will do some research
and I will find the best guy with the best reviews
that takes our insurance,
and we'll go there and we'll have a real conversation.
- Him and I, and you, and Ryan. - Thats fine, I agree to that.
I will agree to that.
So what do you each need to do to unify?
I need to, you know, maybe...
Maybe, like, watch my tone a little bit.
- [Orna] Excellent. - You know?
Really try to, like, you know,
articulate my words in a softer way.
- Excellent. - [Jason] It's very hard because
- I see what I see. - [Orna] That's the key.
- It comes out, - [Orna] I know.
But you've got to manage that. That is the key on your end.
And Marjorie, what do you need to do
for the two of you to get on the same page?
Um, listen to him
and just try to understand where he's coming from.
Yeah. You can say, "Can you please calm down?
I want to hear you. Please speak in a softer tone.
I want to hear you."
Yeah, take a deep breath. I do want to listen to you.
Oh, man, that was--
[Orna] That would go a long way. - I could just... I just didn't--
I fantasize that now... - Yeah.
and I'm like, "Oh my God," you know?
So we've done a few rounds of this.
[Marjorie] Yes. - You totally have what you need.
You have the capacity to do and to do great.
♪ mellow music playing ♪
[Orna] I think the two of them would benefit
from a longer time in couples therapy.
Just to keep rehearsing
and kind of getting into their system
the practice of listening better.
I mean, they've had a lifetime of learning certain patterns,
and now they need some time to rehearse
and rehearse and rehearse.
Shay and Clinton, man, this did not unfold
the way I expected in the beginning.
Yeah, he was playful and little goofy, and she loved that.
Yeah. They worked really hard in the treatment.
Really tried.
They showed up even though
it was like painful and difficult.
And in their relationship, they both worked
to try to be good friends, to be good partners,
to understand each other.
I'm going to see them one more time together.
I mean, it could just fall apart,
but my hope is
they will make the transition
from seeing each other as enemies
to connecting to their friendship.
How are you two?
I, uh...
I'm well. I, uh...
I took some notes from our last session
and I realized I was never taught
to really ever communicate my feelings.
So I think I have a hard aversion to it sometimes.
Whenever I start to emote my feelings,
I start to break down.
Well, it makes it more real.
[Shay] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's an experience when you're telling it to someone else.
It's an experience.
Um...
I would say I've been sad, uh...
Do you want to say it to Clinton?
[sighs]
Yeah.
Okay, uh...
[Shay sighs]
I feel deeply sad
that we're not connected anymore.
It's been... It's been challenging...
to go from talking to you every day
to not speaking with you at all.
It's been a...
[sighs]
I'm really heartbroken.
And I've showed up every week,
and hoping I could...
That, like, I could find some middle ground
that we could stand on together.
And nothing worked, and...
And I also feel really just...
You moved on so quickly
and, like, not only did I feel harmed,
then I felt replaced.
Shay, may I recommend that you--
I mean, this is wonderful.
You're speaking what matters to you,
but do you want to check in with Clinton,
where he's at, listening to you?
I'm okay. I'm listening.
- [Orna] It's a lot. - Yeah.
How are you doing?
I mean, I feel sad too.
And I hear where she's coming from.
I guess that I miss her a lot.
And, like...
[Clinton inhales deeply]
[sighs]
I can see that she felt
that I was abandoning the relationship.
[Orna] Yeah.
I really wasn't, though.
Can you describe it from within your experience?
[tearfully] Like, sure.
I was communic--
I found a community of people that I can talk to more, yeah.
I don't have a lot of friends.
Yeah, I did fall in love with this autistic person,
but I love Shay.
I wanted to marry her.
I know I hurt Shay, and I'm really sorry.
I really am.
[Orna] Yeah, I appreciate how you can say it, Clinton.
[crying]
You know, Shay started the session talking about
how it's hard for her to speak about feelings.
And I think the fact that the two of you can be sad together
and talk about it...
is really important.
That's sort of what resolution really is.
I still love you very deeply.
I always love you.
[crying]
[sighs]
[Shay] My makeup is ruined.
[all laugh]
♪ uplifting music playing ♪
[Orna] I think breaking up well
is an incredibly important lesson for people.
There's just a huge amount of learning that can happen
from breaking up well.
And people can resume their journey as individuals...
with a better understanding of themselves.
Yeah!
[Drea] I did notice
that she seemed down a little bit
after our last session,
and then somehow within 24 hours,
we're having sex with each other.
Why are you making these faces?
Because why are you saying that like that's something I did?
- You did all of it. - No, I'm not-- Right.
But what I'm saying is, I see a pattern in me saying,
"You're right, therapist. We should have boundaries."
And here's this line drawn.
And then here comes Nessa like,
"Hey..." you know?
"You have a boundary or do you want some of this over here?"
But it's not me trying to sabotage her boundaries.
I think when I can see her
as separate from me,
that is attractive to me. - [Orna] Yeah.
It's almost like a "catch me" kind of thing,
"come and get me" kind of thing that you do.
But you're saying it has an effect on you.
- Yeah, if I could be honest. - [Orna] Yeah.
Absolutely.
That's your cat and mouse.
[Orna] Nessa and Drea were basically breaking up
and they came back the next session
in a new place,
deciding not to break up.
And I think what happened there
is the moment Drea announces herself
as separate from her,
Nessa can feel her own longings emerge.
Nessa is on a journey to discover more of herself.
I mean, the work we did in couples therapy
is just the tip of the iceberg.
I went from, "I need to get out of here."
[laughs]
"I'm gone-- I'm gone. How am I going to leave?"
To, "Okay, space can be...
um, made within the marriage."
You know, I'm happy that she's doing the work for herself,
which has kind of freed up some energy for me
to pour into myself and do work for me
because I know I need a lot of work too.
- Mm-hmm. - [Nessa] Um...
Can you say more about that? Because you're--
- My own work? - [Orna] Yeah.
Sure, I--
I've experienced a lot, Orna.
Um...
When I... In my teenage years,
15, 16, I survived a shooting with my brother.
Mm.
[Nessa] And because of the trauma,
I didn't allow myself to be that little girl.
That pink, soft, cared for.
I didn't feel protected in the way that I should have.
And I think it showed up in the way...
Like, the persona that I put on
where it was like, "Well, no, I could take care of it.
I don't need nothing else."
And I think the little girl that needed protection...
- [Orna] Yeah. - ...fell all the way back.
So that blocked off parts of me that are trying to come out,
like, "Someone take care of me."
- [Orna] Mm-hmm. - Right?
And so I'm like, "Well, this is my wife.
She's got to take care of me in that way."
And she's like, "No, you take care of me.
This is how we built this."
And I'm like, okay, but there's still that part of me
that needs that.
So where do I find that?
Have you heard Nessa describe it this way before?
You know, I've never heard her relate
her tough guy personality to...
you know, that intimate and having to change
because of that situation. - [Orna] Yeah.
I know even when she talks about it now,
she dates pictures in her mind.
"Oh, this is before my brother got shot.
Oh, this is after my brother got shot."
I think I want to take some blame.
I know blame is not important here,
but I just feel like
I thought that the more I controlled her,
the more it was set in stone
that she would be here with me forever.
So I feel like the more I grow up and realize that...
this person can exist outside of me
while still being, you know, part of this union with me,
kind of, I don't know, the easier some of this is.
Every time Drea says something that I'm like...
[sighs]
...it's like I can breathe
in that one space where I wasn't breathing.
[Orna] Mm-hmm.
[Drea] And also, and I said I wasn't going to bring this up.
- Uh-oh. - Well, never mind.
- No, I'm not gonna bring... - You can't do that.
- I won't bring it up. - You can't do that.
- And also-- - [Drea] We had...
We recently had sex.
We were, like, wrapped up in each other
when we went to sleep.
Just...
It just-- It reminded me of when we first met.
It felt just normal.
It was very nice.
[Orna] Any-- You want to add any words there?
- No. - Just it was very nice.
It's been, um,
really a treat
working with the two of you.
- Wow. - Really.
So deliciously smart, really.
I'm deliciously smart is what I heard.
- [all laugh] - You are. You are.
Well, I will miss you two.
- Aw, thank you. - I miss you too, Orna.
Thank you so much.
Which one of us was your favorite?
- Was it me? - [all laugh]
Come on, I know it was me.
♪ Lay down your head ♪
Bye, Nico.
♪ Lay down your head ♪
♪ And I'll pick up instead ♪
[Orna] When you understand that a lot of what people do
is motivated by forces that they're not aware of,
you can feel much more compassion towards them.
- Can I give you a hug too? - [Jason] Yeah.
Okay, bye.
And when you hear what people have gone through,
and understand how they've become who they've become...
it opens up like the horizon to understand
who's there in front of you.
We got tattoos to commemorate our time here.
- Do you have one too? - Yeah.
[Sienna] It's a broken heart with a Band-Aid.
[Orna] Oh...
♪ Clinging to the ledge now ♪
♪ Brought to your limit ♪
♪ Pull back and space out ♪
♪ Then brick by brick ♪
♪ I tear your wall down ♪
♪ Make sure you know that I'm here to stay ♪
♪ Let's dance it away ♪
♪ Away ♪
♪ A taste of escape ♪
♪ Escape ♪
♪ Get carried away ♪
♪ Away ♪
♪ Till nothing remains ♪
♪ Away, away ♪
[laughing]
♪ I'll hold you close ♪
♪ Another dose ♪
♪ I take your lips ♪
♪ The most ♪
♪ Clinging to the ledge now ♪
♪ Brought to your limit ♪
♪ Pull back and space out ♪
♪ Then brick by brick ♪
♪ I tear your wall down ♪
♪ Make sure you know that I'm here to stay ♪
♪ Let's dance it away ♪
♪ Away ♪
♪ A taste of escape ♪
♪ Escape ♪
♪ You're carried away ♪
♪ Away ♪
♪ Away
♪ Let's dance it away ♪