1 00:00:23,501 --> 00:00:24,918 Okay 2 00:00:25,834 --> 00:00:27,209 Where were these found, guys? 3 00:00:30,125 --> 00:00:31,876 Green one on the left side there 4 00:00:31,999 --> 00:00:33,417 red one on the right side 5 00:00:33,667 --> 00:00:36,667 - "231" - 231 6 00:00:40,167 --> 00:00:42,667 "Don't let nobody come up here don't want nobody in here" 7 00:01:18,751 --> 00:01:20,417 "The police in West Memphis, Arkansas" 8 00:01:20,542 --> 00:01:22,876 "confirmed today that three young boys were brutally murdered" 9 00:01:23,292 --> 00:01:25,584 "The bodies of Weaver Elementary second graders" 10 00:01:25,709 --> 00:01:28,250 "Stephen Branch, Christopher Byers and Michael Moore" 11 00:01:28,501 --> 00:01:30,542 "were pulled from a shallow creek earlier today" 12 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:33,667 "There are rumors that the boys may have been sexually mutilated" 13 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,000 "The police say that they do not yet have any suspects of the case" 14 00:01:37,459 --> 00:01:39,667 "The missing 8 year old boys were discovered in an area" 15 00:01:39,792 --> 00:01:41,167 "known as Robin Hood Hills" 16 00:01:41,292 --> 00:01:43,999 "a secluded patch of hills behind the Blur Beacon Truck Watch" 17 00:01:44,167 --> 00:01:46,042 "along Interstate 40 in West Memphis" 18 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,000 "Moon is full never seems to change" 19 00:01:49,125 --> 00:01:52,542 "Just labeled mentally deranged" 20 00:01:52,792 --> 00:01:55,918 "Imagine all the evil that you could think of" 21 00:01:56,751 --> 00:01:58,375 "to how someone could be murdered" 22 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:00,959 "And that's how these three children died" 23 00:02:01,167 --> 00:02:03,626 - "No things to make my brain seem" - "No family should have to go" 24 00:02:03,751 --> 00:02:06,792 "through this. Unfortunately, it's gonna happen again somewhere" 25 00:02:07,792 --> 00:02:11,000 "Another town, it's gonna happen again, I'm sure" 26 00:02:11,209 --> 00:02:13,626 - "They keep me locked up in this cage" - "Lot of bad people out there" 27 00:02:13,751 --> 00:02:16,167 - "in the world" - "I don't know why these" 28 00:02:16,292 --> 00:02:17,834 "three little boys were murdered" 29 00:02:18,042 --> 00:02:20,626 "Did they see something they weren't supposed to see?" 30 00:02:21,042 --> 00:02:24,334 "Did they hear things they weren't supposed to hear? I, I don't know that" 31 00:02:24,584 --> 00:02:27,000 "I see no reason, I, I see no motive" 32 00:02:27,334 --> 00:02:29,999 "for why these three little boys were murdered" 33 00:02:32,751 --> 00:02:35,626 "Live from KAIT-8 TV" 34 00:02:36,083 --> 00:02:38,542 "good neighbors you can turn to for news" 35 00:02:38,751 --> 00:02:40,125 "weather and sports" 36 00:02:40,501 --> 00:02:42,959 "Tony Brooks, Diana Davis" 37 00:02:43,459 --> 00:02:45,709 "Terry Wood and Dick Clay" 38 00:02:46,083 --> 00:02:48,709 "This is KAIT-8 News" 39 00:02:49,542 --> 00:02:52,125 - Good evening, I'm Diana Davis - And I'm Tony Brooks 40 00:02:52,250 --> 00:02:55,417 In a statement given to police and obtained by a Memphis newspaper 41 00:02:55,542 --> 00:02:57,375 17 year old Jessie Misskelley 42 00:02:57,709 --> 00:03:00,959 allegedly confesses to watching two other suspects choke 43 00:03:01,042 --> 00:03:04,167 rape and sexually mutilate three West Memphis second graders 44 00:03:04,709 --> 00:03:07,709 - Jenna Newton reports - "According to the published report" 45 00:03:07,834 --> 00:03:09,667 "Misskelley told the police he watched" 46 00:03:09,792 --> 00:03:11,709 "18 year old Damien Echols" 47 00:03:11,834 --> 00:03:14,083 "and 16 years old Jason Baldwin" 48 00:03:14,209 --> 00:03:17,125 "brutalize the children with a club and a knife" 49 00:03:17,542 --> 00:03:19,792 "The reports says Misskelley told police" 50 00:03:19,918 --> 00:03:22,083 "Echols and Baldwin raped one of the boys" 51 00:03:22,334 --> 00:03:26,125 "and sexually mutilated another as part of a cult ritual" 52 00:03:26,417 --> 00:03:28,667 "Misskelley is quoted as saying he did not" 53 00:03:28,792 --> 00:03:30,626 "take part in the rape and mutilation" 54 00:03:30,751 --> 00:03:34,375 "but that he helped subdue one victim who tried to escape" 55 00:03:34,501 --> 00:03:36,709 "At a press conference Inspector Gary Gitchell" 56 00:03:36,834 --> 00:03:40,459 "said the case against the accused teens is very strong" 57 00:03:40,584 --> 00:03:42,667 Scale of one to ten how solid do you think the case is? 58 00:03:42,959 --> 00:03:44,334 Eleven 59 00:03:47,167 --> 00:03:51,083 "It appears Satanic worship may have played a role in the murders" 60 00:03:51,584 --> 00:03:54,125 "Since the very beginning of the investigation" 61 00:03:54,250 --> 00:03:55,918 "people all around West Memphis" 62 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,501 "have come forward with stories of Satanic cults" 63 00:03:59,959 --> 00:04:01,709 Reverend Tommy Stacy's church 64 00:04:01,834 --> 00:04:04,417 is down the street from where the bodies were found 65 00:04:04,792 --> 00:04:07,959 One year ago Damien Echols told the church's youth minister 66 00:04:08,167 --> 00:04:11,792 he had a pact with the devil and he was going to hell 67 00:04:13,626 --> 00:04:15,667 I, I do know that my youth director 68 00:04:16,125 --> 00:04:18,125 uh, talked to Damien extensively 69 00:04:18,375 --> 00:04:20,083 at the revival that we had 70 00:04:20,375 --> 00:04:22,626 and he told him that he could not be saved 71 00:04:22,751 --> 00:04:25,292 that he could not give his heart to Jesus 72 00:04:25,626 --> 00:04:28,999 And my youth director then tried to get him to take a Bible 73 00:04:29,375 --> 00:04:31,417 and he made the statement that he could not take the Bible 74 00:04:31,542 --> 00:04:33,667 because if he did, the rest of them would get him 75 00:04:33,792 --> 00:04:37,334 In West Memphis, Jenna Newton KAIT-8 Night News 76 00:04:38,709 --> 00:04:40,501 Christopher never hurt anybody 77 00:04:40,959 --> 00:04:42,959 He had a gentle loving and giving heart 78 00:04:43,709 --> 00:04:45,501 And they crucified him in those woods 79 00:04:47,459 --> 00:04:49,459 "and they humiliated his little body" 80 00:04:50,417 --> 00:04:53,375 They took his little manhood before he even knew what it was 81 00:04:56,250 --> 00:04:57,709 And I hate them for it 82 00:04:58,999 --> 00:05:01,167 I never hated anybody in my life 83 00:05:03,167 --> 00:05:04,751 And I hate these three 84 00:05:08,250 --> 00:05:11,501 And the mothers that bore them 85 00:05:14,167 --> 00:05:15,584 I can't imagine 86 00:05:18,042 --> 00:05:19,542 what was going through Michael's mind 87 00:05:21,876 --> 00:05:23,250 You know, was he... 88 00:05:25,042 --> 00:05:26,459 calling for me? 89 00:05:28,334 --> 00:05:30,292 "How long did they leave him there tied up" 90 00:05:30,584 --> 00:05:32,542 on that ditch bank before they decided to kill him 91 00:05:32,751 --> 00:05:34,584 I mean, what were they doing to him? 92 00:05:35,792 --> 00:05:38,375 Was he, was he conscious or unconscious? 93 00:05:39,501 --> 00:05:40,959 Did he watch the other two boys 94 00:05:43,083 --> 00:05:45,417 - get cut? - "He was really being killed" 95 00:05:45,542 --> 00:05:46,959 "by real monsters" 96 00:05:55,584 --> 00:05:57,709 God, I'm on TV 97 00:05:59,667 --> 00:06:01,709 Now, Pam, first of all what is, uh 98 00:06:01,834 --> 00:06:03,250 what are you holding in your hand 99 00:06:03,375 --> 00:06:04,792 - In my hand, uh - what's the... 100 00:06:05,167 --> 00:06:06,751 It's Stevie's Boy Scout 101 00:06:07,250 --> 00:06:08,667 I got it back yesterday 102 00:06:09,125 --> 00:06:12,167 And I been wearing it around my head, like this 103 00:06:14,501 --> 00:06:15,999 Did he, did he like scouting? 104 00:06:16,209 --> 00:06:19,459 Oh, he loved it, he loved it yeah. He loved it 105 00:06:20,334 --> 00:06:22,501 "Do you blame yourself for this?" 106 00:06:22,667 --> 00:06:24,209 I have, I have 107 00:06:24,334 --> 00:06:26,999 I've been a, I've, I have been on a guilt trip about it 108 00:06:27,375 --> 00:06:30,834 but, it wasn't my fault, I was at work 109 00:06:30,959 --> 00:06:33,250 Have you contemplated joining Stevie 110 00:06:33,626 --> 00:06:35,709 - uh, before your natural... - Have I thought 111 00:06:35,834 --> 00:06:38,209 - Would I ever... - Have you though about suicide? 112 00:06:38,918 --> 00:06:40,334 Have I? Oh 113 00:06:40,999 --> 00:06:42,375 Uh... 114 00:06:42,501 --> 00:06:43,918 Suicide? 115 00:06:44,334 --> 00:06:47,042 I've, I've felt like dying, but not suicide 116 00:06:47,334 --> 00:06:49,417 you know, no, not suicide 117 00:06:50,250 --> 00:06:52,709 Do you feel that the people that were doing this were worshipping, uh... 118 00:06:52,834 --> 00:06:54,334 Satan? Yes, I do 119 00:06:54,876 --> 00:06:57,209 - Why? - And... Just look at the freaks 120 00:06:58,000 --> 00:06:59,459 I mean, just look at them 121 00:06:59,959 --> 00:07:01,626 They look like punks 122 00:07:25,542 --> 00:07:27,042 Well, Jess told me he didn't do it 123 00:07:27,250 --> 00:07:29,125 didn't have anything to do with it he wasn't there 124 00:07:32,501 --> 00:07:33,918 And I believe him 125 00:07:36,042 --> 00:07:38,125 "I think the cops just can't find who done it" 126 00:07:40,167 --> 00:07:41,751 and they gotta put it on somebody 127 00:07:43,501 --> 00:07:46,459 I wanna tell the whole world, my son is innocent 128 00:07:46,584 --> 00:07:48,334 because I know he is innocent 129 00:07:50,083 --> 00:07:51,667 "I know where he was" 130 00:07:52,667 --> 00:07:54,042 and I know he's innocent 131 00:07:54,167 --> 00:07:56,792 and I wanna tell the world and I want the world to know 132 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:01,999 This boy is not capable 133 00:08:02,918 --> 00:08:05,709 of the crime that he's uh, been arrested for 134 00:08:06,834 --> 00:08:08,459 Uh, I've seen him take a little kitten 135 00:08:09,584 --> 00:08:12,584 and, and love it just like you, you'd love a little baby 136 00:08:13,250 --> 00:08:14,667 "It's like a nightmare" 137 00:08:15,292 --> 00:08:16,959 "A nightmare that you can't wake up from" 138 00:08:17,542 --> 00:08:18,959 Our son's innocent 139 00:08:20,584 --> 00:08:22,000 We intend to prove it 140 00:08:24,999 --> 00:08:27,125 "Yea, though I walk through the valley" 141 00:08:27,250 --> 00:08:28,792 "of the shadow of death" 142 00:08:29,125 --> 00:08:30,876 I shall fear no evil 143 00:08:31,417 --> 00:08:33,000 And I'm not scared of the devil 144 00:08:33,751 --> 00:08:35,667 I gotta know who my comforter is 145 00:08:36,667 --> 00:08:38,999 Thy rod and thy staff comfort me 146 00:08:39,918 --> 00:08:43,792 And I thank you, Lord, for letting me be able to believe in that with all my heart 147 00:08:45,375 --> 00:08:48,083 "I hope ya'll really believe in your master the Satan" 148 00:08:48,792 --> 00:08:50,792 Sleuthfoot, devil himself 149 00:08:50,918 --> 00:08:52,375 cause he's not gonna help you 150 00:08:52,584 --> 00:08:55,292 He's gonna laugh at you mock at you and torture you 151 00:08:55,626 --> 00:08:59,083 He didn't need your help, the devil's got all the devils he needs 152 00:08:59,792 --> 00:09:02,501 The good Lord said Lucifer and a third of the angels 153 00:09:02,626 --> 00:09:04,876 were cast from heaven. He didn't need them 154 00:09:05,125 --> 00:09:07,751 but he took their mind and he manipulated them 155 00:09:07,876 --> 00:09:10,375 and they prayed to Satan and they prayed to the devil 156 00:09:10,584 --> 00:09:13,334 and they had their Satanic worship services out here 157 00:09:13,751 --> 00:09:17,626 and they had all types of wild homosexual orgies I've been told 158 00:09:18,209 --> 00:09:19,626 Crazy things 159 00:09:20,834 --> 00:09:23,292 To me, this place as I stand 160 00:09:23,751 --> 00:09:25,250 is like hell on earth 161 00:09:25,667 --> 00:09:28,209 Because I know that three babies 162 00:09:28,459 --> 00:09:30,999 were killed right out here where I stand 163 00:09:31,626 --> 00:09:33,584 I know my son was castrated 164 00:09:33,876 --> 00:09:36,709 and possibly laid there on that bank and bled to death 165 00:09:37,417 --> 00:09:38,876 I know he was choked 166 00:09:39,334 --> 00:09:42,667 I know one boy's head was beat in beyond recognition 167 00:09:43,083 --> 00:09:46,334 I know one little boy was skinned almost like a animal 168 00:09:47,209 --> 00:09:50,083 Cut, had to shave his head, had... 169 00:09:51,125 --> 00:09:53,125 all types of injuries to the head 170 00:09:53,250 --> 00:09:55,751 where they just keep beating and pounding on him 171 00:09:55,876 --> 00:09:57,626 and killing him and killing him 172 00:09:57,751 --> 00:09:59,167 "It's like they enjoyed it" 173 00:09:59,542 --> 00:10:01,250 "They killed him 2 or 3 times" 174 00:10:02,626 --> 00:10:04,292 Jessie Misskelley Jr. 175 00:10:04,626 --> 00:10:06,042 Jason Baldwin 176 00:10:06,375 --> 00:10:07,792 Damien Echols 177 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,667 I hope your master the devil does take you soon 178 00:10:11,792 --> 00:10:14,000 I want you to meet him real soon 179 00:10:14,834 --> 00:10:17,792 And the day you die, I'm gonna praise God 180 00:10:18,209 --> 00:10:20,999 And I make you a promise, the day you die 181 00:10:21,459 --> 00:10:23,751 every year on May 5th 182 00:10:23,876 --> 00:10:25,999 I'm gonna come to your graveside 183 00:10:26,209 --> 00:10:27,918 I'm gonna spit on you 184 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:30,417 I'm gonna curse the day you were born 185 00:10:30,626 --> 00:10:32,626 And I'm sure while I'm standing there 186 00:10:32,834 --> 00:10:34,999 I'm gonna have to have other bodily functions 187 00:10:35,083 --> 00:10:36,626 let go upon your grave 188 00:10:37,083 --> 00:10:39,584 I promise you as God is my witness 189 00:10:39,709 --> 00:10:41,999 I'll visit all three of your graves 190 00:10:51,417 --> 00:10:53,999 The statement Jessie made to the police is... 191 00:10:54,417 --> 00:10:56,209 is a lie, it's not true, you know 192 00:10:56,626 --> 00:10:59,209 I don't see why he would do something like that to another person 193 00:10:59,792 --> 00:11:03,709 I can see where they might think I was in a cult cause I wear Metallica T-shirts 194 00:11:03,834 --> 00:11:05,292 and stuff like that, but... 195 00:11:06,417 --> 00:11:08,125 I didn't do nothing like that 196 00:11:08,250 --> 00:11:10,083 I couldn't kill an animal or a person 197 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,709 I don't worship the devil or anything like that 198 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:18,918 I worship God, you know, like everybody 199 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:20,584 every normal person in this 200 00:11:20,999 --> 00:11:23,667 around here does. I got a favorite pet 201 00:11:23,792 --> 00:11:25,167 a pet iguana 202 00:11:25,584 --> 00:11:27,417 I've had it a little over a year now 203 00:11:28,375 --> 00:11:30,959 I usually go fishing by myself right in my back yard 204 00:11:32,209 --> 00:11:34,250 Just go out there and my pet cat would be out there 205 00:11:34,375 --> 00:11:35,792 his name's Charlie 206 00:11:36,918 --> 00:11:38,834 Whenever I catch a fish I just give it to him 207 00:11:39,751 --> 00:11:41,292 I didn't kill there three little boys 208 00:11:41,417 --> 00:11:42,834 I didn't kill these three little boys 209 00:11:43,709 --> 00:11:45,417 They were under a lot of pressure 210 00:11:45,834 --> 00:11:47,375 they had to find somebody 211 00:11:47,751 --> 00:11:50,375 to lay this off on before people started losing their jobs 212 00:11:51,375 --> 00:11:52,999 And the public was getting real upset 213 00:11:53,083 --> 00:11:54,667 and saying the cops were incompetent 214 00:11:55,167 --> 00:11:57,542 couldn't do their jobs, so they had to do something fast 215 00:11:59,042 --> 00:12:01,125 And we were like, we were the obvious choice 216 00:12:01,250 --> 00:12:03,417 because we stood out from everybody else 217 00:12:07,542 --> 00:12:09,292 So it worked out to their advantage 218 00:12:20,417 --> 00:12:23,959 No one's gonna be saying that you're stupid or that you're dump 219 00:12:24,042 --> 00:12:25,959 or, or, or making fun of you 220 00:12:26,042 --> 00:12:28,501 but the court should be very interested in determining 221 00:12:28,959 --> 00:12:30,999 exactly what level you're functioning 222 00:12:31,334 --> 00:12:33,209 uh, how well you're able to read 223 00:12:33,334 --> 00:12:35,417 how well you're able to write, things of that nature 224 00:12:35,584 --> 00:12:37,501 - Uh, huh. Mhmm - Does that make sense? 225 00:12:37,876 --> 00:12:40,751 Okay, so, if the court determines that 226 00:12:40,876 --> 00:12:44,334 that you're operating, uh, below average 227 00:12:44,584 --> 00:12:46,999 then there's a possibility that the court will not be allowed 228 00:12:47,083 --> 00:12:50,167 or the state will not be allowed to impose the death penalty against you 229 00:12:50,292 --> 00:12:51,792 - Do you understand what that means? - Yeah 230 00:12:52,209 --> 00:12:55,417 We've got about 10 weeks before the trial comes up in January 231 00:12:55,626 --> 00:12:57,000 Yeah 232 00:12:57,667 --> 00:12:59,292 Are you looking forward to having the trial? 233 00:13:01,083 --> 00:13:02,834 A little bit, not much 234 00:13:12,709 --> 00:13:15,000 - Hello - "Operator, I have a collect call" 235 00:13:15,125 --> 00:13:16,626 - "your name, please?" - "Jessie" 236 00:13:16,751 --> 00:13:18,667 - "Will you pay? Thank you" - Yes, ma'am 237 00:13:19,501 --> 00:13:21,125 - Hey, son. How you doing? - "Hey" 238 00:13:21,375 --> 00:13:23,459 - "Fine, I'm doing all right" - Doing all right, that's good 239 00:13:24,834 --> 00:13:26,918 - "My hand still hurts" - Your hand still hurts? 240 00:13:27,292 --> 00:13:29,501 - "Yeah" - Did you find out if it broke or not? 241 00:13:29,709 --> 00:13:31,167 "No, I ain't found out" 242 00:13:31,834 --> 00:13:33,209 "It, I can move it" 243 00:13:34,334 --> 00:13:35,959 Well, if you can move it, it's not broke 244 00:13:36,751 --> 00:13:38,375 "It, it, it hurts" 245 00:13:38,918 --> 00:13:41,167 Well, if you can move it, it's not broke it's gonna hurt for a while 246 00:13:41,292 --> 00:13:42,709 cause you bruised it pretty good 247 00:13:43,959 --> 00:13:46,667 You just gotta learn not to hit them walls, his somebody else 248 00:13:48,125 --> 00:13:49,918 - "You, there wasn't nobody" - Jack his jaw 249 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:51,501 - "in my room to hit" - Oh, okay 250 00:13:51,792 --> 00:13:54,042 - "I just kept, I didn't hit the wall" - Why... 251 00:13:54,167 --> 00:13:55,792 - "I hit the commode" - Hit the commode? 252 00:13:55,918 --> 00:13:57,375 "Yeah, hit it on the side" 253 00:13:58,375 --> 00:14:00,542 - Well, you can sure... - "Didn't even put a dent in it either" 254 00:14:01,626 --> 00:14:03,876 - "That must be a hard commode, man" - I heard that 255 00:14:04,792 --> 00:14:06,834 - "What time ya'll gonna come up?" - I don't know 256 00:14:06,959 --> 00:14:08,999 "Ya'll can come up anytime cause ya'll be here with me" 257 00:14:09,542 --> 00:14:11,167 Well, uh... 258 00:14:11,667 --> 00:14:13,292 We'll see you Saturday 259 00:14:35,167 --> 00:14:36,834 They're gonna have to go through the metal detector 260 00:14:36,959 --> 00:14:38,334 when they come through the front door 261 00:14:38,792 --> 00:14:40,667 Uh, every, I want everybody to do that 262 00:14:40,959 --> 00:14:43,000 They've got that portable thing that they can bring from 263 00:14:43,125 --> 00:14:44,542 Little Rock if you need it 264 00:14:45,751 --> 00:14:47,209 Like the airport deal? 265 00:14:47,417 --> 00:14:50,083 But we couldn't afford no 3000 dollar metal detector 266 00:14:50,751 --> 00:14:53,209 so what I planned on doing was using two portables 267 00:14:53,459 --> 00:14:54,959 at this door, that's why I wanted 268 00:14:55,250 --> 00:14:57,626 all, everybody outside of lawyers 269 00:14:58,125 --> 00:15:00,501 and I want them to come through this door 270 00:15:00,626 --> 00:15:02,334 Yeah, there's a potential, uh, uh 271 00:15:02,459 --> 00:15:04,792 problem area with the, the... 272 00:15:05,417 --> 00:15:07,000 the strong feelings of the family 273 00:15:07,125 --> 00:15:08,542 and, and that's to be understood 274 00:15:08,709 --> 00:15:11,417 so security, not only coming in and out of the courtroom 275 00:15:11,542 --> 00:15:13,542 is, is a problem, but, uh... 276 00:15:13,999 --> 00:15:16,083 keeping the on lookers and the family 277 00:15:16,209 --> 00:15:18,501 and, and people segregated from 278 00:15:18,626 --> 00:15:20,667 from the, the accused is another problem 279 00:15:20,792 --> 00:15:22,167 that you'll, you'll have Darwin 280 00:15:22,292 --> 00:15:24,083 My intention was to bring this boy in 281 00:15:24,209 --> 00:15:25,918 before, long before court 282 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:27,501 and have him inside 283 00:15:27,918 --> 00:15:29,834 Obviously I'm very concerned about security 284 00:15:30,334 --> 00:15:32,792 simply because of the death threats and other things that have happened 285 00:15:33,334 --> 00:15:36,250 but, uh, I don't want to give the jury the impression 286 00:15:36,501 --> 00:15:38,125 if we have 20 state troopers 287 00:15:38,250 --> 00:15:40,125 and 50 county deputies 288 00:15:40,250 --> 00:15:42,751 and, and, uh, it's gonna give the impression 289 00:15:42,876 --> 00:15:46,125 to the jury that my client is a very dangerous person which he's not 290 00:15:46,709 --> 00:15:49,334 And I don't want the jury to get the wrong impression 291 00:15:49,459 --> 00:15:51,792 I don't want there to be such a circus in the courtroom 292 00:15:51,918 --> 00:15:53,626 with reporters and cameras 293 00:15:53,751 --> 00:15:55,709 that the jury forgets about what they're here for 294 00:15:55,834 --> 00:15:57,334 and that is to administer justice 295 00:15:58,959 --> 00:16:03,334 We expect the proof's going to show that this defendant confessed 296 00:16:03,459 --> 00:16:05,083 that he was not coerced 297 00:16:05,542 --> 00:16:06,959 uh... 298 00:16:07,584 --> 00:16:10,501 they, we do not contend that the proof's going to show 299 00:16:10,626 --> 00:16:13,417 that every word that came out of his mouth was the truth 300 00:16:13,999 --> 00:16:15,542 Ladies and gentlemen, the jury 301 00:16:15,709 --> 00:16:18,999 this statement that Mr. Misskelley gave the West Memphis Police Department 302 00:16:19,876 --> 00:16:21,334 is a false story 303 00:16:22,167 --> 00:16:24,250 The interrogation techniques that were deployed 304 00:16:24,375 --> 00:16:26,250 against Mr. Misskelley at the time of his statement 305 00:16:26,375 --> 00:16:28,792 on June the 3rd, rendered him 306 00:16:28,918 --> 00:16:30,542 completely incapable 307 00:16:31,792 --> 00:16:35,876 it, it broke his will, they scared him beyond all measures 308 00:16:36,167 --> 00:16:37,751 The proof is going to show 309 00:16:38,542 --> 00:16:40,083 that this defendant 310 00:16:40,292 --> 00:16:44,542 was an accomplice to Damien Echols and Jason Baldwin 311 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:49,167 in the commission of these horrifying murders 312 00:16:49,834 --> 00:16:51,542 and we will ask you 313 00:16:51,709 --> 00:16:54,626 to return your verdict of guilty 314 00:16:55,083 --> 00:16:57,417 on three counts of capital murder 315 00:17:00,125 --> 00:17:02,000 "We don't know what the truth is" 316 00:17:02,542 --> 00:17:04,834 But when it really gets down to brass tacks 317 00:17:07,083 --> 00:17:09,167 his daddy and I are gonna look him square in the eyes 318 00:17:09,292 --> 00:17:11,042 and say son, did you do this? 319 00:17:12,083 --> 00:17:13,876 Did, was you even there? 320 00:17:14,959 --> 00:17:16,709 That's when we will believe 321 00:17:17,542 --> 00:17:18,959 Well, if he told me he did it 322 00:17:20,999 --> 00:17:22,375 which I don't believe he did 323 00:17:22,501 --> 00:17:23,959 but if he told me he did it 324 00:17:25,083 --> 00:17:26,542 he'd have to do his time 325 00:17:27,209 --> 00:17:28,626 Suffer the consequences 326 00:17:28,959 --> 00:17:32,459 If admits to this, he would be strictly on his own 327 00:17:33,709 --> 00:17:35,626 - We wouldn't even send him a dollar - No 328 00:17:35,751 --> 00:17:38,167 - for a pack of cigarettes - No, no, you're wrong there 329 00:17:38,292 --> 00:17:39,876 - Yes, we would. No - No, I would 330 00:17:40,542 --> 00:17:42,000 He's my son 331 00:17:43,667 --> 00:17:45,042 I'll send him money 332 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,250 - But he will have to do his time - This is... 333 00:17:51,584 --> 00:17:52,999 I wouldn't give him a nickel 334 00:17:53,999 --> 00:17:55,501 - He's my son - No, we could be 335 00:17:55,626 --> 00:17:57,167 - talking about, we could be - He's my flesh and blood 336 00:17:57,292 --> 00:17:58,709 talking about my son 337 00:17:59,125 --> 00:18:03,250 - Well? - If my son did something that horrible 338 00:18:03,375 --> 00:18:05,834 that, no, I wouldn't give him a nickel 339 00:18:06,209 --> 00:18:08,167 - Let him suffer - You can't turn your blood away 340 00:18:08,751 --> 00:18:10,375 I don't know how you say you could 341 00:18:10,584 --> 00:18:12,250 and we're gonna have a problem over this 342 00:18:12,459 --> 00:18:14,959 But I know how it is being up in there in jail without anything 343 00:18:15,375 --> 00:18:18,042 Well, that's beside the point. If he, if he's guilty 344 00:18:19,334 --> 00:18:22,417 if he's guilty of doing this to these three little boys 345 00:18:23,542 --> 00:18:24,959 - No - He's not 346 00:18:25,999 --> 00:18:27,667 Well, I'm saying he's not, too 347 00:18:27,876 --> 00:18:29,250 but... 348 00:18:29,417 --> 00:18:31,918 if he happens to be, if it's proven 349 00:18:32,709 --> 00:18:35,125 no, forget it, no 350 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,334 - No - Well, I don't believe he did it 351 00:18:40,209 --> 00:18:41,667 I'll never believe he did it 352 00:18:47,584 --> 00:18:49,167 This is to Jessie Jr. 353 00:18:49,375 --> 00:18:50,918 today's his 18th birthday 354 00:18:51,501 --> 00:18:52,918 and I haven't seen him 355 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,042 I don't know where to go see him at 356 00:18:55,792 --> 00:18:57,292 and we'll sing happy birthday to him 357 00:18:58,709 --> 00:19:02,042 "Happy birthday to you" 358 00:19:02,542 --> 00:19:05,751 "Happy birthday to you" 359 00:19:06,584 --> 00:19:10,751 "Happy birthday dear Jessie" 360 00:19:11,125 --> 00:19:14,834 "Happy birthday to you" 361 00:19:15,542 --> 00:19:19,209 "Happy birthday to you" 362 00:19:19,542 --> 00:19:22,918 "Happy birthday to you" 363 00:19:23,417 --> 00:19:27,626 "Happy birthday dear Jessie" 364 00:19:27,959 --> 00:19:31,584 "Happy birthday to you" 365 00:19:32,292 --> 00:19:34,334 And don't smoke too much 366 00:19:37,459 --> 00:19:39,375 Now he's legal to get a... 367 00:19:39,501 --> 00:19:40,999 Yeah, he's legal to smoke now 368 00:19:45,501 --> 00:19:48,959 "I may not be his biological mother but giving birth don't make a parent" 369 00:19:49,959 --> 00:19:51,626 And I've had him since he was 4 370 00:19:53,584 --> 00:19:56,083 And, it took me about a year 371 00:19:56,542 --> 00:19:59,459 to assure that little boy I was gonna be here for him 372 00:19:59,876 --> 00:20:01,292 He wouldn't wanna go to school 373 00:20:01,501 --> 00:20:03,459 he wouldn't wanna go outside and play 374 00:20:03,584 --> 00:20:06,209 because he was afraid I wouldn't be here when, when he come in 375 00:20:06,334 --> 00:20:09,417 And when he was in kindergarten if he happened to come in 376 00:20:09,542 --> 00:20:11,459 and I happened to not be where he could see me 377 00:20:11,584 --> 00:20:13,417 when he first come in, he'd be hysterical 378 00:20:13,542 --> 00:20:14,959 when I got to him 379 00:20:15,959 --> 00:20:17,334 And... 380 00:20:17,584 --> 00:20:19,417 I've always known that... 381 00:20:22,083 --> 00:20:23,501 he was... 382 00:20:23,751 --> 00:20:25,125 he had a problem 383 00:20:26,709 --> 00:20:28,083 And I... 384 00:20:28,209 --> 00:20:29,918 I've always been real protective of him 385 00:20:32,125 --> 00:20:33,667 Mom sent me this one 386 00:20:36,292 --> 00:20:37,792 "There are all sorts of sons" 387 00:20:38,459 --> 00:20:39,959 "Sons can be slouchy" 388 00:20:40,042 --> 00:20:41,459 "Sons can be sweet" 389 00:20:41,709 --> 00:20:43,167 "Sons can be grouchy" 390 00:20:44,125 --> 00:20:45,542 "This is sons can be neat" 391 00:20:45,751 --> 00:20:47,125 "Sons can be broke" 392 00:20:47,542 --> 00:20:49,334 "Sons can be well to do" 393 00:20:50,167 --> 00:20:52,542 "But no son could ever be loved more than you" 394 00:20:52,751 --> 00:20:54,125 and it says happy birthday 395 00:20:54,250 --> 00:20:57,959 I cry a lot when I'm in here cause I miss my family and everything 396 00:20:58,042 --> 00:21:01,709 and, and I just cry a lot, you know 397 00:21:02,542 --> 00:21:03,959 After that, I go to bed 398 00:21:04,334 --> 00:21:05,751 try to sleep 399 00:21:07,999 --> 00:21:09,626 "My name is Alice Sanders" 400 00:21:09,999 --> 00:21:11,876 "My son was Antonio Sanders" 401 00:21:11,999 --> 00:21:15,417 "and he got killed Halloween night 1990" 402 00:21:15,876 --> 00:21:19,083 "My name is Brenda McLean and my brother was stabbed to death" 403 00:21:19,584 --> 00:21:21,751 I'm Brenda East, and my son Robert 404 00:21:22,626 --> 00:21:25,999 23 at the time, was murdered in 1990 405 00:21:26,209 --> 00:21:28,999 My name's Ann Marlin, my daughter was Sheila Elrod Dixon 406 00:21:29,667 --> 00:21:32,375 she was murdered January the 12th of 91 407 00:21:38,959 --> 00:21:40,334 I'm Wanda Writning 408 00:21:42,083 --> 00:21:43,501 my daughter was murdered 409 00:21:44,125 --> 00:21:45,542 January 27th 410 00:21:45,792 --> 00:21:47,417 we think, we're not sure 411 00:21:47,834 --> 00:21:49,709 They're calling it a crime of passion 412 00:21:50,876 --> 00:21:54,792 He not only throwed her out and let her lay two weeks 413 00:21:55,250 --> 00:21:57,709 he poured acid on her to deteriorate her body 414 00:22:03,417 --> 00:22:05,125 I didn't have the pleasure of... 415 00:22:06,959 --> 00:22:08,542 telling my daughter goodbye 416 00:22:10,209 --> 00:22:11,834 Funeral was a closed casket 417 00:22:13,250 --> 00:22:15,125 This is what I had on the casket 418 00:22:16,042 --> 00:22:18,209 and it's still very unreal to me 419 00:22:18,792 --> 00:22:21,125 When the telephone rings I expect it to be her 420 00:22:22,834 --> 00:22:24,209 My name is Todd Moore 421 00:22:25,542 --> 00:22:27,626 My son was Michael Moore he was murdered along with 422 00:22:29,125 --> 00:22:32,709 Christopher Byers and Stephen Branch, May 5th, 1993 423 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:40,792 I cannot describe the pain 424 00:22:43,209 --> 00:22:44,751 that my family has went through, you know 425 00:22:44,876 --> 00:22:47,542 they didn't just kill my son they killed a part of me 426 00:22:49,292 --> 00:22:51,751 They killed a part of my wife, our daughter 427 00:22:55,584 --> 00:22:58,542 I'm so frustrated because it seems like they have so much rights 428 00:22:58,918 --> 00:23:01,417 we have no rights. Like it had in the paper the other day 429 00:23:01,834 --> 00:23:05,083 now taxpayers of Crittenden County are gonna have to buy them a suit 430 00:23:05,209 --> 00:23:06,667 because they don't want them to go into court 431 00:23:07,042 --> 00:23:08,876 looking like what they are, criminals 432 00:23:09,292 --> 00:23:11,542 They're in jail. They should wear jail clothes 433 00:23:12,250 --> 00:23:15,125 Why do they need to have a nice suit bought by the county? 434 00:23:15,250 --> 00:23:18,292 So they look presentable, they don't want them in shackles and chains 435 00:23:19,792 --> 00:23:23,000 You know, these are not boys that murdered our kids 436 00:23:23,417 --> 00:23:26,125 You know, they stopped being boys you know, when they planned this 437 00:23:26,667 --> 00:23:29,918 and I hear, I sit there and watch their parents and stuff 438 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,626 coming out of court crying talking about their sons' rights 439 00:23:32,751 --> 00:23:34,167 what about our son's rights? 440 00:23:34,292 --> 00:23:35,999 Where in the hell was his rights out there on that ditch bank? 441 00:23:36,501 --> 00:23:39,584 He had no rights. He had the rights to be brutally murdered 442 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,417 be beat to death, an 8 year old little boy 443 00:23:43,959 --> 00:23:45,334 Where was his rights? 444 00:23:45,709 --> 00:23:48,209 I'm Diane Moore, Michael Moore's mother 445 00:23:48,459 --> 00:23:50,542 Last week in, in Flash market 446 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,501 the Echols man was in there, staring me down 447 00:23:54,501 --> 00:23:56,751 Like it was my fault that I had a child 448 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:58,751 that his child could murder 449 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,667 We set in that big store we seen the people 450 00:24:03,125 --> 00:24:04,751 that are supporting these people 451 00:24:05,709 --> 00:24:07,876 that look at us like we're scum 452 00:24:08,083 --> 00:24:09,709 And these other people are just 453 00:24:10,792 --> 00:24:12,501 the greatest thing that they've ever known 454 00:24:12,834 --> 00:24:15,667 And now they wanna to have him all just dressed up 455 00:24:15,792 --> 00:24:18,667 and act like little choirboys in court and... 456 00:24:19,542 --> 00:24:21,250 here you go, He didn't do anything wrong 457 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,375 My son didn't do anything wrong, he's just a boy 458 00:24:26,250 --> 00:24:30,709 Now on June the 3rd, did you have a, an assignment to locate a particular person? 459 00:24:31,334 --> 00:24:35,584 My assignment was to contact Jessie Misskelley Jr. 460 00:24:35,918 --> 00:24:38,792 At that time was the defendant a suspect? 461 00:24:39,209 --> 00:24:41,125 - No, sir - If he was not a suspect 462 00:24:41,250 --> 00:24:43,000 why were you assigned to contact him? 463 00:24:43,334 --> 00:24:46,250 He was a, a friend with, uh 464 00:24:46,584 --> 00:24:50,709 friends with Damien Echols and Jason Baldwin 465 00:24:52,375 --> 00:24:54,292 What if anything did he tell you 466 00:24:54,918 --> 00:24:59,167 uh, during this conversation before the tape recording? 467 00:24:59,417 --> 00:25:04,209 Okay, he has told us that he had attended some Satanic cult type meetings 468 00:25:04,999 --> 00:25:08,584 That boys along with girls would attend 469 00:25:09,083 --> 00:25:12,667 there would be sessions of sex 470 00:25:12,918 --> 00:25:14,834 uh, orgies as he called them 471 00:25:15,792 --> 00:25:17,876 Uh, that... 472 00:25:18,083 --> 00:25:21,209 dogs and animals had been killed 473 00:25:21,334 --> 00:25:23,959 and, in fact, those animals 474 00:25:24,125 --> 00:25:26,167 portions of them have been eaten by the members 475 00:25:28,167 --> 00:25:30,542 "I believe is there's angels on earth" 476 00:25:30,667 --> 00:25:32,667 I believe there's demons on earth 477 00:25:33,459 --> 00:25:35,918 And I believe there's angels try to help people 478 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,334 I believe demons try to possess 479 00:25:38,459 --> 00:25:41,250 and hurt people to do the devil's will 480 00:25:41,542 --> 00:25:45,042 just how angels try to help people to do God's will 481 00:25:47,250 --> 00:25:50,167 "Oh, worship the king" 482 00:25:50,292 --> 00:25:52,999 "of glorious above" 483 00:25:53,125 --> 00:25:55,918 "and gratefully sing" 484 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,918 "his wonderful love" 485 00:25:59,042 --> 00:26:02,792 - "Our children..." - "This time Mark is gonna sing a song" 486 00:26:02,918 --> 00:26:04,334 "entitled Whatever it Takes" 487 00:26:04,542 --> 00:26:07,709 a beautiful song, ya'll listen to him as he comes and shares. Mark 488 00:26:16,999 --> 00:26:19,792 I believe the Lord is gonna direct me, guide me and lead me 489 00:26:21,501 --> 00:26:23,250 And we're gonna give the glory to him 490 00:26:31,709 --> 00:26:35,542 "There's a voice calling me" 491 00:26:35,918 --> 00:26:39,792 "from an old rugged tree" 492 00:26:40,083 --> 00:26:41,999 "And it whispers" 493 00:26:42,250 --> 00:26:48,209 "draw closer to me" 494 00:26:48,834 --> 00:26:53,000 "Lead this world far behind" 495 00:26:53,375 --> 00:26:58,000 "there are no lights to blind" 496 00:26:58,125 --> 00:27:00,083 "and a new place" 497 00:27:00,250 --> 00:27:05,083 "in there you will find" 498 00:27:06,626 --> 00:27:10,626 "For whatever it takes" 499 00:27:11,042 --> 00:27:16,000 "to draw closer to the Lord" 500 00:27:16,292 --> 00:27:23,834 "that's what I'll be willing to do" 501 00:27:24,292 --> 00:27:28,501 "For whatever it takes" 502 00:27:28,751 --> 00:27:33,167 "to be more like you" 503 00:27:33,834 --> 00:27:40,792 "that's what I'll be willing to do" 504 00:27:41,834 --> 00:27:44,584 - "I'll take sunshine..." - There's no doubt in your mind 505 00:27:44,709 --> 00:27:46,918 that at about 5, 30 a.m. Jessie was sitting 506 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:48,542 - in that spot... - He was sitting right down here 507 00:27:48,667 --> 00:27:50,292 I had seen the police over there twice 508 00:27:51,209 --> 00:27:53,751 I'd also seen little Jessie over there and very competent 509 00:27:53,876 --> 00:27:56,125 - and he, and he was talking to me - Police officer talked to him? 510 00:27:56,250 --> 00:27:58,417 - Yes, sir - They had to find somebody 511 00:27:58,542 --> 00:27:59,959 to pin this on 512 00:28:00,751 --> 00:28:02,501 This publicity was getting out of hand 513 00:28:05,042 --> 00:28:07,417 Could ask those folks inside to step out for just a second? 514 00:28:08,876 --> 00:28:11,375 Uh, I know that I've talked to 515 00:28:11,501 --> 00:28:13,542 to each of you, if not directly indirectly 516 00:28:14,334 --> 00:28:16,417 We need to be very, very careful about 517 00:28:16,751 --> 00:28:19,792 who we talk to with regard to the media involved in this case 518 00:28:19,918 --> 00:28:21,375 there are several members of the media 519 00:28:21,959 --> 00:28:23,501 who apparently have no ethics 520 00:28:23,709 --> 00:28:26,292 and have decided that they're gonna do everything they can to dig up 521 00:28:26,542 --> 00:28:28,042 mud and sling mud 522 00:28:28,167 --> 00:28:29,667 it's not gonna do anything but hurt Jessie 523 00:28:29,792 --> 00:28:31,584 and his chances of receiving a fair trial 524 00:28:32,042 --> 00:28:34,999 You as, as friends of Jessie and relatives of Jessie 525 00:28:35,375 --> 00:28:37,626 are prime targets for these members of the press 526 00:28:37,959 --> 00:28:40,167 and if we just remember the one rule is 527 00:28:40,292 --> 00:28:42,292 don't talk to anybody and we won't have to worry about it 528 00:28:42,417 --> 00:28:43,834 Does that make sense? 529 00:28:44,250 --> 00:28:46,751 So again I, I caution you not to talk to anybody 530 00:28:47,042 --> 00:28:48,667 in the press, it's just gonna hurt us 531 00:28:48,918 --> 00:28:50,584 - thanks - "grace" 532 00:28:50,709 --> 00:28:54,876 "for my will to break" 533 00:28:54,999 --> 00:28:56,626 "that's what" 534 00:28:56,792 --> 00:29:02,999 "I'll be willing to do" 535 00:29:03,626 --> 00:29:05,209 "That's what" 536 00:29:05,375 --> 00:29:12,209 "I'll be willing to do" 537 00:29:16,375 --> 00:29:17,792 Head it up 538 00:29:25,876 --> 00:29:28,999 You know one thing I like about this right there black powder gun 539 00:29:30,501 --> 00:29:32,751 is they can't pull any type of ballistics on it 540 00:29:32,876 --> 00:29:35,999 if by some chance you was to shoot something with it 541 00:29:36,083 --> 00:29:39,375 every bullet rifles through the chamber just a little bit different 542 00:29:41,250 --> 00:29:43,709 So, they just can't pull no ballistics off this 543 00:29:45,167 --> 00:29:47,667 There's a few people I wouldn't mind going on shooting with it 544 00:29:47,792 --> 00:29:51,959 but, hopefully the courts and the justice system take care of them, but 545 00:29:52,918 --> 00:29:55,209 they reach prison, they gonna get took care of 546 00:29:56,876 --> 00:29:59,209 I told Todd I could save the state a lot of money 547 00:29:59,501 --> 00:30:01,876 They'd just let me line those three son of a guns up 548 00:30:02,751 --> 00:30:06,375 I'd say this one here's for you Jessie we gonna go for the jug of water 549 00:30:07,375 --> 00:30:09,999 Oh, Jessie, I done blowed you half in two, son 550 00:30:13,125 --> 00:30:14,542 Now this one here is for you Damien 551 00:30:14,667 --> 00:30:16,417 you that black circle right in the middle 552 00:30:17,375 --> 00:30:18,792 Oh, you got hurt 553 00:30:19,792 --> 00:30:21,626 Damn, that sure looked painful, didn't it? 554 00:30:21,751 --> 00:30:23,125 Yeah, hey, Jason 555 00:30:23,792 --> 00:30:26,042 I want you to smile and blow me a kiss for this one 556 00:30:28,125 --> 00:30:29,584 Now, let's go back to Jessie 557 00:30:30,042 --> 00:30:31,876 I just wounded him, I want him to bleed 558 00:30:31,999 --> 00:30:33,751 a little bit like he made my baby bleed 559 00:30:34,501 --> 00:30:35,918 Oh, Jessie 560 00:30:36,959 --> 00:30:39,167 Yeah, that breaks my heart thinking about that scum 561 00:30:40,501 --> 00:30:42,375 Cause this right here's all that needs to be done to him 562 00:30:42,501 --> 00:30:43,918 is just shot slowly 563 00:30:44,751 --> 00:30:46,375 With a real nice firearm 564 00:30:47,417 --> 00:30:50,584 and you ain't got no consideration or no feeling who it's aiming at 565 00:30:50,709 --> 00:30:52,417 just like they didn't care about killing my baby 566 00:30:55,584 --> 00:30:57,209 I'd be happy lining them up 567 00:30:58,292 --> 00:30:59,709 I wouldn't have no problem with it 568 00:31:01,667 --> 00:31:03,834 I think old Jessie's still kicking a little 569 00:31:04,999 --> 00:31:06,792 Ya'll go ahead and put him out of this misery 570 00:31:07,459 --> 00:31:09,375 What kind of, what kind of range we got in the courtroom? 571 00:31:09,999 --> 00:31:11,751 Uh, probably about 10 foot right here 572 00:31:13,334 --> 00:31:14,751 Go ahead and waste old Jessie 573 00:31:15,542 --> 00:31:17,000 Don't see that being much of a problem 574 00:31:17,417 --> 00:31:18,834 No 575 00:31:19,167 --> 00:31:20,584 Cause I can just see the scum 576 00:31:21,709 --> 00:31:23,083 That's good 577 00:31:23,209 --> 00:31:24,626 Go ahead, he's wiggling 578 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:26,417 All right 579 00:31:26,709 --> 00:31:28,083 Oh, I could live with that 580 00:31:33,792 --> 00:31:37,209 During the course of these conversations 581 00:31:37,584 --> 00:31:39,459 was anything shown to the defendant? 582 00:31:39,918 --> 00:31:41,834 - Yes, sir - All right, what was shown to him? 583 00:31:42,167 --> 00:31:44,667 Yeah, there was a picture that Inspector Gitchell showed him 584 00:31:44,834 --> 00:31:47,292 Okay, and what was that a picture of? 585 00:31:47,501 --> 00:31:48,918 of one of the victims 586 00:31:50,667 --> 00:31:52,751 When I showed Jessie this photograph 587 00:31:52,876 --> 00:31:54,250 and he took it into his hand 588 00:31:54,417 --> 00:31:57,042 and he just, he just went back in his chair like this 589 00:31:57,584 --> 00:31:59,250 And, and he just locked in on it 590 00:31:59,626 --> 00:32:01,876 fixed in on the photograph and just kept staring at it 591 00:32:01,999 --> 00:32:03,375 and staring at it 592 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:05,918 Initially, Mr. Misskelley 593 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,751 denied any involvement whatsoever in this, didn't he? 594 00:32:08,999 --> 00:32:10,375 Yes, sir, he did 595 00:32:10,501 --> 00:32:11,918 Officer Ridge 596 00:32:12,167 --> 00:32:14,918 the photograph that was just introduced into evidence depicting 597 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:16,834 uh, one of the boys' bodies 598 00:32:17,250 --> 00:32:18,959 - that was shown to Jessie? - Yes, sir 599 00:32:19,334 --> 00:32:21,999 And this was immediately prior to him admitting 600 00:32:22,167 --> 00:32:24,876 and telling you the story about being present when the boys were killed? 601 00:32:25,834 --> 00:32:27,209 Shortly before, yes, sir 602 00:32:27,334 --> 00:32:28,751 Why did you guys do that? 603 00:32:30,125 --> 00:32:31,667 There had to be a reason to do that 604 00:32:31,918 --> 00:32:34,918 There were times when Jessie would not be talking 605 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:36,876 he's, he's getting slower with information 606 00:32:36,999 --> 00:32:39,209 he's, he's telling us things that are just 607 00:32:39,459 --> 00:32:41,167 it's over and over the same thing 608 00:32:41,292 --> 00:32:43,667 those techniques are used to evoke a response 609 00:32:46,459 --> 00:32:50,292 You and Inspector Gitchell did these things to invoke a response 610 00:32:50,417 --> 00:32:52,626 - Yes - Invoke a confession 611 00:32:52,999 --> 00:32:54,876 Invoke a response, to keep him talking 612 00:32:56,542 --> 00:33:00,167 Did it ever occur to you that Mr. Misskelley has a mental handicap? 613 00:33:00,918 --> 00:33:02,292 No, sir. It didn't to me on that day 614 00:33:02,751 --> 00:33:06,042 Do you have any special training dealing with people with mental handicaps? 615 00:33:06,167 --> 00:33:08,584 - No, sir - Did it ever occur to you that 616 00:33:08,709 --> 00:33:11,292 that this was gonna scare him showing him a picture of a body? 617 00:33:14,209 --> 00:33:16,459 That it would scare him? I don't know 618 00:33:16,584 --> 00:33:19,584 I, I guess, he's scared into making a statement. Yes, sir 619 00:33:21,375 --> 00:33:23,292 "I, I'm getting nervous every day" 620 00:33:23,751 --> 00:33:25,167 - Why? - "Why?" 621 00:33:25,292 --> 00:33:26,959 - Oh - "Why?" 622 00:33:27,292 --> 00:33:29,000 - Okay - "That's a stupid question" 623 00:33:29,876 --> 00:33:33,167 - "Okay" - "I, boy, I can barely hold this phone" 624 00:33:33,918 --> 00:33:36,375 "Well, it's just getting closer and closer and closer" 625 00:33:36,918 --> 00:33:38,375 - I know - "I just, I don't wanna even" 626 00:33:38,501 --> 00:33:41,459 "think about it. I can imagine what they're gonna do to me" 627 00:33:41,918 --> 00:33:44,834 "I can imagine. But I'm not gonna think that though" 628 00:33:44,959 --> 00:33:47,167 Think good thoughts, okay while I'm on the phone 629 00:33:47,292 --> 00:33:49,834 - "Huh?" - Talk, talk about something good 630 00:33:49,959 --> 00:33:51,999 - while I'm on the phone. Hey - "Yeah" 631 00:33:52,125 --> 00:33:53,918 You're supposed to be talking to me, not your friends 632 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:55,667 "Well, we talking about something else" 633 00:33:55,999 --> 00:33:57,417 "These people make me mad" 634 00:33:58,501 --> 00:33:59,918 - "You know it?" - Uh, huh 635 00:34:00,751 --> 00:34:02,918 "They, they get to go out and screw people and I can't" 636 00:34:03,417 --> 00:34:04,834 Oh 637 00:34:05,999 --> 00:34:08,334 "Well, ya'll do. But I can't do that" 638 00:34:08,709 --> 00:34:10,083 Well, you will later 639 00:34:10,250 --> 00:34:11,918 - "I will later?" - Mhmm 640 00:34:12,125 --> 00:34:13,542 "How do you know?" 641 00:34:14,292 --> 00:34:16,834 - "I mean, if I can get out we will..." - I know that 642 00:34:16,959 --> 00:34:18,334 "but if I don't get out we won't" 643 00:34:18,751 --> 00:34:20,667 "What I was gonna ask you that last, that Sunday?" 644 00:34:20,792 --> 00:34:23,626 - "Uh, huh" - "That I had, I dreamed about you?" 645 00:34:23,959 --> 00:34:25,626 - "Uh, huh" - "Yu won't believe what I was dreaming" 646 00:34:26,417 --> 00:34:30,250 "It, it freaked me out Wanna hear it? Huh?" 647 00:34:30,542 --> 00:34:31,959 Yeah 648 00:34:32,167 --> 00:34:34,667 "We was, we was having sex, all right?" 649 00:34:36,167 --> 00:34:38,334 - Okay - "We went to, we went to a bathroom" 650 00:34:38,459 --> 00:34:39,876 "we had sex" 651 00:34:39,999 --> 00:34:42,417 "We were, when I was going through, going uh, going out the front door" 652 00:34:42,542 --> 00:34:44,959 "we had sex out there We're doing it out in the yard" 653 00:34:45,876 --> 00:34:48,709 "in front of everybody, it freaked me out" 654 00:34:50,459 --> 00:34:52,334 "I woke up. Boy, I was sweating bad" 655 00:34:53,083 --> 00:34:54,959 "Man, I hope that dream come true quick" 656 00:34:55,792 --> 00:34:57,250 "What are you donna do when you get off the phone?" 657 00:34:58,417 --> 00:35:00,042 - Sneak back home - "Go back home" 658 00:35:00,375 --> 00:35:01,918 - Uh, huh - "I'm gonna go back home too" 659 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,501 - "when I get off the phone" - I wish you could 660 00:35:04,792 --> 00:35:06,292 - "Huh?" - I wish you could 661 00:35:06,626 --> 00:35:09,292 "Yeah, well, my time's up, okay?" 662 00:35:09,417 --> 00:35:11,083 - "Okay" - "I gotta go, okay" 663 00:35:11,209 --> 00:35:12,834 - "Okay. I Love you too" - "Love you" 664 00:35:12,959 --> 00:35:14,334 "Bye bye" 665 00:35:39,959 --> 00:35:41,751 - Can you get it in there... - Yeah 666 00:36:07,209 --> 00:36:09,042 I think those two ought to do fine 667 00:36:09,167 --> 00:36:10,667 Yeah, I'm sure they will both 668 00:36:13,042 --> 00:36:15,042 Yeah, this one's good this one came out 669 00:36:15,584 --> 00:36:16,999 Okay 670 00:36:18,459 --> 00:36:19,876 Oh 671 00:36:20,167 --> 00:36:22,125 Be different from any other Christmas 672 00:36:24,918 --> 00:36:26,459 Be one we'll never forget 673 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:29,959 Yeah, I know, it's the first one without him 674 00:36:34,501 --> 00:36:35,918 Ah 675 00:36:41,959 --> 00:36:44,417 Wish you could have been here to hear me sing lately 676 00:36:45,042 --> 00:36:46,709 He liked to hear me sing 677 00:36:57,501 --> 00:37:00,292 I think his little Christmas tree it'll stay there real well 678 00:37:00,417 --> 00:37:03,834 It's in there tied enough, I don't think the wind will blow it over or anything 679 00:37:04,999 --> 00:37:06,542 Come here, and kneel down here by me 680 00:37:18,876 --> 00:37:21,375 Oh, God, why did you let this happen? 681 00:37:22,542 --> 00:37:24,209 Please help us through it 682 00:37:27,834 --> 00:37:30,042 God, please, help us through this 683 00:37:34,167 --> 00:37:37,417 "This is a, uh, enlarged photograph of the crime scene" 684 00:37:37,792 --> 00:37:40,876 This is the ditch where the bodies were found 685 00:37:41,125 --> 00:37:44,375 Michael Moore was found in this area right here at the bottom of the screen 686 00:37:44,876 --> 00:37:49,667 Steve Branch was found just, just behind where these trees are in the stream 687 00:37:50,125 --> 00:37:53,918 and Christopher Byers was found just below that body right here 688 00:37:54,709 --> 00:37:56,375 This is Exhibit 22 689 00:37:56,542 --> 00:37:59,167 Which is the body of Michael Moore 690 00:37:59,375 --> 00:38:01,918 after removing him from the water 691 00:38:02,709 --> 00:38:04,083 the way he was found 692 00:38:08,167 --> 00:38:10,501 This is the body of Steve Branch 693 00:38:10,626 --> 00:38:14,626 Steve Branch is the young man that had the injuries to his face 694 00:38:15,709 --> 00:38:17,459 Is it a particular part of his face? 695 00:38:17,584 --> 00:38:19,751 On the left side, in there 696 00:38:24,918 --> 00:38:26,501 State's Exhibit 24 697 00:38:26,626 --> 00:38:28,834 the body of Christopher Byers 698 00:38:29,459 --> 00:38:33,918 And what kind of injuries did Chris Byers have, that you observed? 699 00:38:34,083 --> 00:38:36,167 It looked as though his penis had been removed 700 00:38:51,959 --> 00:38:53,792 Could you see the pictures from where you were sitting? 701 00:38:54,209 --> 00:38:55,792 Yeah, that's why I had to leave 702 00:38:55,959 --> 00:38:57,334 Why? 703 00:38:57,459 --> 00:39:02,042 Because I'm always alone with seeing my little boy the way he was 704 00:39:02,167 --> 00:39:04,959 I'll always have that picture of what he looked like 705 00:39:06,083 --> 00:39:08,459 - In my mind - But you never knew until now 706 00:39:09,709 --> 00:39:11,083 You were worried early on that 707 00:39:11,751 --> 00:39:13,918 that you said early on that you really didn't want to know 708 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:15,626 but now, you're hearing it. I mean, is it 709 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,375 a lot harder than what you thought it was gonna be, to hear? 710 00:39:18,834 --> 00:39:21,000 It's a whole lot harder than I thought it would be 711 00:39:23,042 --> 00:39:26,459 It's like going back to May 5th and reliving it all over again 712 00:40:55,083 --> 00:40:57,626 Inspector Gitchell, let's talk about the things that, that 713 00:40:57,751 --> 00:41:00,334 Jessie told you that are just absolutely incorrect 714 00:41:00,459 --> 00:41:02,250 Now on page 9 of his statement 715 00:41:02,709 --> 00:41:06,501 Inspector Gitchell, Jessie says that the murders took place around noon 716 00:41:06,792 --> 00:41:08,375 how did you know that was incorrect? 717 00:41:08,918 --> 00:41:11,584 Because the boys, the young boys were still in school 718 00:41:12,167 --> 00:41:14,876 Did at any time when he was telling you these things 719 00:41:14,999 --> 00:41:16,375 that you knew were incorrect 720 00:41:16,542 --> 00:41:19,501 did it ever occur to you that what he was telling you was false 721 00:41:19,792 --> 00:41:21,459 his entire story was false? 722 00:41:21,959 --> 00:41:25,501 In Jessie's case I feel like he did tell us a good bit of the truth 723 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,292 but then they also lessen their activity in a statement 724 00:41:29,417 --> 00:41:31,417 That's, uh, just common 725 00:41:31,542 --> 00:41:33,125 at least in my 20 years' career... 726 00:41:33,250 --> 00:41:35,626 Is it common for the police to simply ignore 727 00:41:35,751 --> 00:41:37,250 these big obvious problems 728 00:41:37,375 --> 00:41:39,999 and just assume that everything else that he's telling you 729 00:41:40,083 --> 00:41:41,501 has, has gotta be correct? 730 00:41:41,626 --> 00:41:43,999 Uh, Jessie simply got confused 731 00:41:46,834 --> 00:41:48,918 "Uh, you and I can tell the cops" 732 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,584 that we know what our rights are and, uh 733 00:41:51,709 --> 00:41:54,250 basically go to hell, we're not gonna sit here and take this and walk out 734 00:41:54,626 --> 00:41:57,834 Jessie Misskelley has no concept of being able to leave a police station 735 00:41:58,083 --> 00:42:00,042 I mean, the only thing that they, the prosecution has 736 00:42:00,250 --> 00:42:04,334 has put on against Jessie is this wild story that he told the police 737 00:42:04,834 --> 00:42:07,918 And I hope that the fact that there's no physical evidence linking him 738 00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,834 him to the crime scene, is gonna have a lot of impact on the jury 739 00:42:11,375 --> 00:42:12,999 And we're talking about reasonable doubt 740 00:42:13,334 --> 00:42:14,999 - Uh... - But, but I think you need to deal with 741 00:42:15,083 --> 00:42:16,834 the lack of physical evidence, not just 742 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:18,918 not, not just let them get away with the fact 743 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:20,834 that they were in the water and it all washed away 744 00:42:21,042 --> 00:42:24,501 A crime scene that clean has to be purposefully planned 745 00:42:24,626 --> 00:42:26,000 done that way 746 00:42:26,125 --> 00:42:28,459 Okay, the, the, that the fact that it looked washed down 747 00:42:28,584 --> 00:42:30,459 - was not just happenstance - Right, okay 748 00:42:30,584 --> 00:42:32,542 - Okay, the, the, the... - That's probably something 749 00:42:32,667 --> 00:42:34,250 - like you said we can, maybe... - Somebody, somebody 750 00:42:34,375 --> 00:42:36,125 somebody intentionally 751 00:42:36,751 --> 00:42:38,125 purposefully... 752 00:42:39,125 --> 00:42:40,999 with great cunning and intelligence 753 00:42:42,334 --> 00:42:44,334 tried to get, get rid of 754 00:42:46,167 --> 00:42:49,125 every spot of blood, semen, uh 755 00:42:49,250 --> 00:42:52,083 mud, footprint, anything that may have been there 756 00:42:52,626 --> 00:42:54,167 they purposefully tried to get rid of all that 757 00:42:54,959 --> 00:42:59,417 An 18 and a 17 and a 16 year old kid don't pull this off, no 758 00:42:59,918 --> 00:43:01,292 Lot of, I think there's a lot of 759 00:43:01,667 --> 00:43:03,584 professional killers who don't leave it this clean, you know 760 00:43:03,792 --> 00:43:06,792 I really do believe that if the jury hears 761 00:43:06,918 --> 00:43:08,667 what lust serial killers are like 762 00:43:08,792 --> 00:43:10,542 and what they do and how they leave crime scenes 763 00:43:10,959 --> 00:43:12,959 the missing evidence the souvenirs 764 00:43:13,042 --> 00:43:15,292 I, I have no doubt where there's a serial killer around that 765 00:43:15,417 --> 00:43:17,792 that did these murders, I have no doubt hell, he may be in Idaho now 766 00:43:17,918 --> 00:43:20,292 But, I mean, I, I'm, I don't have any doubt about it, you know 767 00:43:20,918 --> 00:43:22,417 you know, It's somebody who knew what they were doing 768 00:43:22,542 --> 00:43:24,999 had done it before, and probably has done it since then or 769 00:43:25,459 --> 00:43:27,083 or will definitely do it again 770 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:30,792 Are you aware of any personality traits 771 00:43:30,918 --> 00:43:33,000 of people who are likely to possibly confess? 772 00:43:33,459 --> 00:43:34,876 Low I.Q 773 00:43:36,501 --> 00:43:37,918 Highly suggestible 774 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,334 always attempting to solve the immediate stress factor 775 00:43:42,834 --> 00:43:45,626 Get the interrogators off my back 776 00:43:45,751 --> 00:43:47,167 and just let me go home 777 00:43:48,292 --> 00:43:51,709 Naively assumes that they can all straighten it out later on 778 00:43:52,167 --> 00:43:53,792 It's extremely difficult 779 00:43:54,083 --> 00:43:56,042 for the average person to believe 780 00:43:57,876 --> 00:44:00,292 that someone would confess to a crime that they didn't do 781 00:44:00,417 --> 00:44:01,999 and what I didn't like about this confession 782 00:44:02,083 --> 00:44:04,999 is that most of it emanated from questions right off the bat 783 00:44:06,083 --> 00:44:09,501 Without, without any narrative of any, any length at all 784 00:44:10,125 --> 00:44:12,709 Without any descriptions about feelings 785 00:44:12,834 --> 00:44:14,375 or conversations or anything 786 00:44:15,292 --> 00:44:16,792 I, I just don't understand 787 00:44:16,918 --> 00:44:19,000 uh, if he was in fact involved in this crime 788 00:44:19,125 --> 00:44:21,083 how he made a mistake on the time factor 789 00:44:22,584 --> 00:44:24,667 And the thing that really bothers me is the ligature 790 00:44:24,792 --> 00:44:26,876 what was used to tie up the, the victims 791 00:44:26,999 --> 00:44:29,584 now he certainly knows the difference between, uh... 792 00:44:30,709 --> 00:44:32,125 shoelaces and a rope 793 00:44:32,542 --> 00:44:35,918 That should have been a, a signal that something was radically wrong 794 00:44:36,083 --> 00:44:38,584 that's when the questions should have been more probing 795 00:44:38,709 --> 00:44:42,501 to determine whether or not he was making it up or giving a valid confession 796 00:44:43,501 --> 00:44:46,876 Out of the 100 or more people that ya'll talked to 797 00:44:47,083 --> 00:44:49,834 are you aware of anybody other than the defendant 798 00:44:50,042 --> 00:44:52,792 who told you one of the victims 799 00:44:54,292 --> 00:44:55,876 that had their genitals removed 800 00:44:56,584 --> 00:44:58,876 and one of them had cuts to the side of the face 801 00:44:59,250 --> 00:45:01,584 and it been some grabbing of the ears? 802 00:45:02,083 --> 00:45:05,999 Uh, there was no one else that mentioned those particular injuries 803 00:45:06,083 --> 00:45:07,792 and you yourself Mr. Fogelman 804 00:45:08,250 --> 00:45:10,083 you're pointing to the wrong side of the cheek 805 00:45:12,999 --> 00:45:14,876 Was there any kind of emotional response? 806 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:16,834 He had tears coming down his eyes 807 00:45:17,042 --> 00:45:21,334 Right. Had ya'll yelled at him or been mean to him or... 808 00:45:21,459 --> 00:45:23,417 - No, sir - threatened him or promised him 809 00:45:23,542 --> 00:45:25,042 anything, done any of those things? 810 00:45:25,167 --> 00:45:26,918 - None of these things happened whatsoever - All right 811 00:45:49,709 --> 00:45:51,542 Dr. Ofshe, could you give us some examples of 812 00:45:51,667 --> 00:45:53,501 of the police being coercive 813 00:45:53,626 --> 00:45:56,042 leading or suggestive during the course of the interrogation? 814 00:45:56,292 --> 00:45:58,209 Yes, I can. Perhaps the most 815 00:45:58,751 --> 00:46:01,584 powerful example, in my opinion 816 00:46:02,959 --> 00:46:05,584 is the example of the 8 revisiting 817 00:46:06,375 --> 00:46:09,918 of the question of the time at which the killings occurred 818 00:46:10,876 --> 00:46:14,083 The first example occurs of page 3 819 00:46:14,209 --> 00:46:17,292 Detective Ridge says, all right when did you go with them? 820 00:46:17,751 --> 00:46:19,501 Mr. Misskelley says, that morning 821 00:46:19,626 --> 00:46:21,292 Detective Ridge asks 822 00:46:21,459 --> 00:46:23,083 "I'm not saying when they called you" 823 00:46:23,209 --> 00:46:27,167 "I'm saying what time was it that you were actually there in the park?" 824 00:46:28,918 --> 00:46:30,709 Mr. Misskelley says, about noon 825 00:46:31,250 --> 00:46:32,918 Detective Ridge now says 826 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,918 "Okay, was it after school had let out?" 827 00:46:36,209 --> 00:46:39,834 This is immediately after Jessie saying it's at noon 828 00:46:40,167 --> 00:46:42,000 he's now suggesting it must be later 829 00:46:42,125 --> 00:46:44,626 by saying is it after school let out 830 00:46:45,501 --> 00:46:46,918 Jessie says, yes 831 00:46:47,667 --> 00:46:51,250 Detective Ridge follows up with his victory 832 00:46:51,667 --> 00:46:54,083 on page 24 833 00:46:54,459 --> 00:46:57,501 and this time Detective Ridge says and I quote 834 00:46:58,250 --> 00:47:01,751 "Okay, the night you were in the woods" 835 00:47:02,751 --> 00:47:05,000 "uh, had you all been in the water?" 836 00:47:05,751 --> 00:47:07,125 Jessie replies 837 00:47:07,250 --> 00:47:13,000 "Yeah, we'd been in the water, we were in it that night playing around in it" 838 00:47:13,709 --> 00:47:16,417 This is the first time in the record 839 00:47:16,667 --> 00:47:19,834 that it is directly suggested to Jessie 840 00:47:20,334 --> 00:47:23,209 that the correct answer is this happened at night 841 00:47:23,542 --> 00:47:26,626 immediately upon that being suggested 842 00:47:27,626 --> 00:47:29,000 Jessie 843 00:47:30,542 --> 00:47:35,417 is, responds by accepting and now he starts to use the word at night 844 00:47:36,250 --> 00:47:37,999 Where he had never used it before 845 00:47:38,459 --> 00:47:40,250 that is an influence tactic 846 00:47:40,459 --> 00:47:43,459 it is a way of getting someone to accept something 847 00:47:44,626 --> 00:47:46,918 out of pressure and out of suggestion 848 00:47:47,459 --> 00:47:50,626 But that's one example, there are many other examples 849 00:47:50,834 --> 00:47:54,999 of manipulation on important points throughout this record 850 00:48:04,209 --> 00:48:05,626 Mr. Ofshe 851 00:48:06,083 --> 00:48:08,709 is your going rate approximately 300 dollars an hour? 852 00:48:08,834 --> 00:48:10,417 - No, that's not - What is it? 853 00:48:10,834 --> 00:48:13,542 My rate is 150 dollars an hour for consultation 854 00:48:14,501 --> 00:48:17,918 and 300 dollars an hour for time spent in court or in deposition 855 00:48:18,334 --> 00:48:21,167 So, if you're initially asked to evaluate a case 856 00:48:21,584 --> 00:48:24,209 you don't get the 300 dollars an hour 857 00:48:24,501 --> 00:48:26,334 unless you give an opinion that is consistent 858 00:48:26,459 --> 00:48:28,334 with what the person who asked you wants to hear 859 00:48:28,542 --> 00:48:31,834 They don't call you as a witness, you don't get your 300 dollars an hour, correct? 860 00:48:32,209 --> 00:48:33,626 Incorrect 861 00:48:34,584 --> 00:48:38,792 I don't know what the terminology is in Berkeley, California 862 00:48:39,042 --> 00:48:41,751 but when the defendant 863 00:48:41,876 --> 00:48:44,626 identified who it was who was castrated 864 00:48:44,959 --> 00:48:47,792 when he indicated that one of the boys was cut in the face 865 00:48:47,959 --> 00:48:50,459 you don't know and you can't give an opinion 866 00:48:50,584 --> 00:48:53,459 that any of those questions were coercive, can you? 867 00:48:53,626 --> 00:48:56,083 No, I can't because the record that we are dealing with 868 00:48:56,209 --> 00:48:57,959 is very incomplete 869 00:48:58,042 --> 00:49:01,417 because this part of the record is preceded 870 00:49:02,125 --> 00:49:03,584 as everyone agrees 871 00:49:04,375 --> 00:49:08,375 by over two hours of interrogation 872 00:49:08,959 --> 00:49:10,834 in which many subjects were discussed 873 00:49:11,042 --> 00:49:12,626 for which we have no record 874 00:50:17,375 --> 00:50:19,709 "Welcome to where time stands still" 875 00:50:19,834 --> 00:50:23,167 "No one leaves and no one will" 876 00:50:23,626 --> 00:50:25,709 "Moon is full, never seems to change" 877 00:50:25,834 --> 00:50:29,292 "Just labeled mentally deranged" 878 00:50:29,667 --> 00:50:31,834 "Dream the same thing every night" 879 00:50:31,999 --> 00:50:35,292 "I see our freedom in my sight" 880 00:50:35,792 --> 00:50:37,751 "No locked doors, no windows barred" 881 00:50:37,876 --> 00:50:41,375 "No things to make my brain seem scarred" 882 00:50:41,667 --> 00:50:43,959 "Sleep my friend and you will see" 883 00:50:44,042 --> 00:50:47,250 "The dream is my reality" 884 00:50:47,584 --> 00:50:49,959 "They keep me locked up in this cage" 885 00:50:50,042 --> 00:50:56,417 "Can't they see it's why my brain says rage?" 886 00:50:57,042 --> 00:50:59,626 "Sanitarium" 887 00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:01,417 "Jessie Misskelley" 888 00:51:01,709 --> 00:51:03,792 "didn't tell the police anything" 889 00:51:03,918 --> 00:51:05,292 "that they didn't already know" 890 00:51:05,542 --> 00:51:08,542 they led him through this entire taped statement 891 00:51:08,999 --> 00:51:10,375 and ladies and gentlemen of the jury 892 00:51:10,501 --> 00:51:13,459 we don't know what happened before they turned the tape recorder on 893 00:51:14,334 --> 00:51:15,751 They didn't videotape it 894 00:51:15,999 --> 00:51:18,792 the officers didn't take notes on all the questions 895 00:51:18,918 --> 00:51:20,292 they testified to that 896 00:51:20,542 --> 00:51:22,834 They even testified they couldn't remember some of the things they asked him 897 00:51:23,876 --> 00:51:26,792 How do we know what really happened? 898 00:51:27,250 --> 00:51:30,375 The defense through bringing in so called experts 899 00:51:30,501 --> 00:51:31,918 such as Mr. Ofshe 900 00:51:32,375 --> 00:51:35,125 have tried through smoke and mirrors to make it sound like 901 00:51:35,959 --> 00:51:38,792 a person that confesses to such a heinous crime 902 00:51:39,167 --> 00:51:42,918 and admits their involvement and gives you specific details in the involvement 903 00:51:43,417 --> 00:51:47,792 that's indicative of someone who was forced or coerced to confess 904 00:51:48,459 --> 00:51:50,792 Ladies and gentlemen the jury, my client 905 00:51:51,292 --> 00:51:52,751 little Jessie Misskelley 906 00:51:52,876 --> 00:51:54,459 is an innocent man 907 00:51:55,584 --> 00:51:56,999 He's innocent 908 00:51:57,501 --> 00:51:59,417 And I would ask you to go back to that jury room 909 00:51:59,876 --> 00:52:02,167 and bring back a verdict that rings of justice 910 00:52:02,792 --> 00:52:04,459 truth and justice 911 00:52:05,584 --> 00:52:07,125 And I would ask you to bring back a verdict 912 00:52:07,250 --> 00:52:09,834 that you can live with for the rest of your life 913 00:52:11,292 --> 00:52:14,626 See this picture, this is this is the Moore boy 914 00:52:15,250 --> 00:52:17,167 This defendant won't look up 915 00:52:17,459 --> 00:52:18,876 he won't look at you 916 00:52:19,501 --> 00:52:21,501 But this defendant's actions 917 00:52:22,375 --> 00:52:23,834 and you just think about it 918 00:52:24,584 --> 00:52:27,918 If this defendant does not chase down Michael Moore 919 00:52:29,834 --> 00:52:32,667 if he does not run through the woods and chase him down 920 00:52:32,792 --> 00:52:34,167 and bring him back 921 00:52:34,792 --> 00:52:36,292 Michael Moore lives 922 00:52:36,959 --> 00:52:38,834 Michael Moore gets to go home at night 923 00:52:38,959 --> 00:52:40,501 his parents get to be with him 924 00:52:41,417 --> 00:52:43,667 But because of this defendant's actions 925 00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:47,542 because of what Jessie Misskelley Jr. did 926 00:52:47,834 --> 00:52:49,292 Michael Moore's dead 927 00:52:49,417 --> 00:52:50,959 Stevie Branch is dead 928 00:52:51,501 --> 00:52:52,959 Chris Byers is dead 929 00:52:53,584 --> 00:52:55,209 And there's no getting around 930 00:52:55,501 --> 00:52:58,375 I think when you go back and you apply your common sense 931 00:52:58,501 --> 00:53:01,417 and you do what's right and you think about the evidence in this case 932 00:53:01,959 --> 00:53:04,667 you're gonna know that what the evidence shows 933 00:53:04,792 --> 00:53:06,292 is that this defendant 934 00:53:07,375 --> 00:53:09,042 ran down Michael Moore 935 00:53:09,375 --> 00:53:10,999 that this defendant was there 936 00:53:11,250 --> 00:53:15,792 he was involved and he's guilty of three counts of capital murder 937 00:53:16,167 --> 00:53:18,083 3, 2, 1 938 00:53:18,292 --> 00:53:21,417 "The jury went out at 4, 20 this afternoon" 939 00:53:21,667 --> 00:53:23,501 "they'll decide if Jessie Misskelley is guilty" 940 00:53:23,626 --> 00:53:26,334 "in the deaths of Christopher Byers Michael Moore and Steven Branch" 941 00:53:26,667 --> 00:53:28,792 "Misskelley is charged with a capital murder" 942 00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:31,542 "and if guilty could get the death penalty" 943 00:53:31,918 --> 00:53:34,125 "Two other teenagers charged in the crime" 944 00:53:34,375 --> 00:53:36,667 "will be tried later this month in Jonesboro" 945 00:53:37,209 --> 00:53:39,459 "In Corning, Wade Hoffman, ARN News" 946 00:53:40,584 --> 00:53:41,999 Short but sweet 947 00:53:45,250 --> 00:53:47,042 I wanna tell you something twitch your nose 948 00:53:47,167 --> 00:53:49,417 and make them come back with a non-guilty verdict, can you? 949 00:53:49,542 --> 00:53:51,000 If I could twitch my nose and do that I'd have been 950 00:53:51,125 --> 00:53:52,667 - gone a long time ago - We've been praying to God 951 00:53:54,792 --> 00:53:56,584 - There's still hope - That's right 952 00:53:56,709 --> 00:53:58,542 - There's still hope - I'm not giving up though 953 00:53:58,667 --> 00:54:00,959 No, no, no, no, no 954 00:54:01,125 --> 00:54:03,876 Don't ever. Don't give, don't get in there and get mad and go 955 00:54:03,999 --> 00:54:06,292 Oh, don't ever get mad... 956 00:54:06,459 --> 00:54:08,667 They tell me, how come he always keeps his head down? 957 00:54:09,709 --> 00:54:11,459 - Well... - Because I was told 958 00:54:11,584 --> 00:54:13,083 - to keep my head down - That's right 959 00:54:13,334 --> 00:54:17,042 If you'd raised up, looking around, then they would be saying something else 960 00:54:17,167 --> 00:54:19,999 - so that don't matter - They're gonna, they're gonna 961 00:54:20,083 --> 00:54:21,999 That's like they're saying about, uh, Damien 962 00:54:22,626 --> 00:54:24,167 Oh, it's Jason looking around 963 00:54:24,834 --> 00:54:26,751 - No... - Damien is a good kid 964 00:54:26,999 --> 00:54:28,375 - That's what it was... - I guess... 965 00:54:28,667 --> 00:54:30,417 - I don't know - I don't know, I don't know about him 966 00:54:30,834 --> 00:54:33,918 I didn't realize how much I loved him, until this 967 00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:35,999 I always loved him but this is just... 968 00:54:36,292 --> 00:54:37,959 - Well, thanks a lot - I mean, no 969 00:54:38,042 --> 00:54:40,876 I always loved you, I'm just saying I didn't realize how much 970 00:54:41,751 --> 00:54:43,125 You're coming home 971 00:54:44,876 --> 00:54:46,250 Gotta get out of here 972 00:54:46,584 --> 00:54:47,999 Just say a prayer 973 00:54:48,083 --> 00:54:49,501 - when the jury comes out - Yeah 974 00:54:49,709 --> 00:54:51,375 Oh, I know... 975 00:54:51,999 --> 00:54:54,501 Cause we'll be sitting and saying one... 976 00:54:55,626 --> 00:54:57,250 - for you - Hopefully I'm gonna get out 977 00:54:57,792 --> 00:54:59,959 Sure, hope so. We hope we can carry you home 978 00:55:14,250 --> 00:55:15,959 This is kind of horrible, oh, my God 979 00:55:21,918 --> 00:55:23,459 But you got it... 980 00:55:28,209 --> 00:55:30,959 "All right, ladies and gentlemen I, I, in the audience" 981 00:55:31,042 --> 00:55:33,459 I am acutely aware 982 00:55:33,792 --> 00:55:35,209 that... 983 00:55:35,334 --> 00:55:38,667 your feelings are on edge 984 00:55:39,042 --> 00:55:42,417 that there is a great deal of emotion involved 985 00:55:42,542 --> 00:55:45,542 but the court cannot tolerate and will not tolerate 986 00:55:45,667 --> 00:55:50,459 any verbal outbursts, and a display of emotion whatsoever 987 00:55:50,751 --> 00:55:52,834 And I, I recognize that that's difficult 988 00:55:52,959 --> 00:55:54,792 and that's why I'm warning you in advance 989 00:55:56,417 --> 00:55:59,334 Uh, the verdicts read as follow, uh... 990 00:55:59,459 --> 00:56:02,000 "We the jury find Jessie Lloyd Misskelley Jr." 991 00:56:02,125 --> 00:56:04,959 "guilty of first degree murder in the death of Michael Moore" 992 00:56:05,459 --> 00:56:08,667 "We the jury find Jessie Lloyd Misskelley Jr. guilty" 993 00:56:08,792 --> 00:56:11,292 "of second degree murder in the death of Stevie Branch" 994 00:56:11,417 --> 00:56:13,876 "We the jury find Jessie Lloyd Misskelley Jr." 995 00:56:13,999 --> 00:56:15,667 "guilty of second degree murder in the death" 996 00:56:15,792 --> 00:56:19,083 "of Chris Byers, signed by T.J. Williams, foreman" 997 00:56:19,459 --> 00:56:21,751 All right, Mr. Misskelley, if you could 998 00:56:22,417 --> 00:56:24,209 come around to the front here and stand 999 00:56:25,459 --> 00:56:27,375 All right Mr. Misskelley, did you hear the 1000 00:56:27,626 --> 00:56:30,834 the jury's finding and the reading of verdict in your case? 1001 00:56:30,959 --> 00:56:33,918 - Yes, sir - Do you have any legal reason 1002 00:56:34,125 --> 00:56:38,209 or cause to tell the court why sentence should not be imposed at this time? 1003 00:56:39,959 --> 00:56:42,626 You'll have to, I heard you but you need to answer out a little bit louder 1004 00:56:42,751 --> 00:56:44,250 - No, sir - All right 1005 00:56:44,751 --> 00:56:49,250 Uh, is there anything you wanna say before sentence is imposed? 1006 00:56:49,375 --> 00:56:52,626 You have the right to, to make any statement that you care to at this time 1007 00:56:52,751 --> 00:56:54,876 - No - Are you satisfied 1008 00:56:54,999 --> 00:56:57,584 with the service and advice of your attorneys through this trial? 1009 00:56:57,709 --> 00:56:59,167 - Yes, sir - All right, all right 1010 00:56:59,292 --> 00:57:03,000 based upon the jury's verdict finding you guilty of first degree murder 1011 00:57:03,125 --> 00:57:05,292 in the death of Michael Moore you'll be sentenced to 1012 00:57:05,459 --> 00:57:08,417 to the Arkansas Department of Corrections for a term of life 1013 00:57:08,542 --> 00:57:11,876 in the count involving the death of Steven Branch 1014 00:57:11,999 --> 00:57:14,334 the jury having found you guilty of second degree murder 1015 00:57:14,459 --> 00:57:17,667 you'll be sentenced to an additional term of 20 years 1016 00:57:17,792 --> 00:57:21,000 and in regard to the death of Christopher Byers 1017 00:57:21,125 --> 00:57:23,918 the jury having found you guilty of second degree murder 1018 00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:26,501 you'll be sentenced to an additional term of 20 years 1019 00:57:26,626 --> 00:57:28,501 "in the Arkansas Department of Corrections" 1020 00:57:28,626 --> 00:57:31,792 "That is you will receive a life sentence plus 40 years" 1021 00:57:32,459 --> 00:57:34,542 It's hard to think of how you... 1022 00:57:35,751 --> 00:57:38,083 it would have gone any other way but you never can tell 1023 00:57:38,209 --> 00:57:40,250 with a jury of 12 and they could have found a verdict 1024 00:57:40,375 --> 00:57:41,792 of not guilty and, uh... 1025 00:57:42,083 --> 00:57:43,542 we had to sit there and tell ourselves 1026 00:57:43,667 --> 00:57:47,042 God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change 1027 00:57:47,459 --> 00:57:49,375 the courage to change the things we can 1028 00:57:49,501 --> 00:57:51,083 and the wisdom to know the difference 1029 00:57:51,375 --> 00:57:53,501 So we had to be willing to accept what happened 1030 00:57:53,626 --> 00:57:55,667 and thankfully the verdict went our way 1031 00:57:55,959 --> 00:57:58,000 Well, there must be mixed emotions because 1032 00:57:58,125 --> 00:58:01,876 you have the guilty verdict but you, you still have a loss to deal with 1033 00:58:03,167 --> 00:58:05,834 This doesn't change anything 1034 00:58:06,501 --> 00:58:08,125 - Our son was still murdered - Christopher is dead 1035 00:58:08,250 --> 00:58:10,292 - Our son is still dead - And he was tortured to death 1036 00:58:10,417 --> 00:58:13,792 by three murdering bastards on a ditch bank 1037 00:58:13,918 --> 00:58:15,292 he was 8 years old 1038 00:58:15,959 --> 00:58:17,375 And guilty is guilty 1039 00:58:17,792 --> 00:58:20,209 and I hope the little sucker when he hits Cummings 1040 00:58:20,334 --> 00:58:22,834 they get his ass right off the bat 1041 00:58:23,459 --> 00:58:25,584 Because he deserves to be tortured 1042 00:58:25,709 --> 00:58:27,876 and punished for the rest of his life 1043 00:58:28,167 --> 00:58:31,125 for murdering three 8 year old children 1044 00:58:33,334 --> 00:58:35,709 Jessie, how come you kept your head down the whole time? 1045 00:58:36,042 --> 00:58:38,042 Jessie, you held your head down through most of the trial 1046 00:58:38,167 --> 00:58:39,584 anything you wanna say now? 1047 00:58:39,709 --> 00:58:41,083 Did you do it, Jessie? 1048 00:58:44,334 --> 00:58:45,999 Okay, get that back, get a hold of him 1049 00:58:46,167 --> 00:58:47,626 Did you do it, Jessie? 1050 00:58:52,375 --> 00:58:53,792 Do you have something to say? 1051 00:58:54,292 --> 00:58:55,834 How are you feeling right now? 1052 00:59:11,542 --> 00:59:13,042 Prison's not a safe place 1053 00:59:15,250 --> 00:59:17,000 Jessie, sweetie 1054 00:59:18,167 --> 00:59:19,751 I'mma mail him a skirt 1055 00:59:21,709 --> 00:59:23,125 One down, two to go 1056 00:59:23,751 --> 00:59:25,751 Hopefully the same thing will happen to the next two 1057 00:59:25,876 --> 00:59:27,292 and we'll get the same verdict 1058 00:59:44,375 --> 00:59:48,918 They found my son's testicles in a jar of alcohol 1059 00:59:49,542 --> 00:59:51,542 in Damien Echols' house 1060 00:59:52,375 --> 00:59:54,709 With his fingerprints on the jar 1061 00:59:55,167 --> 00:59:56,834 Now, how do you dispute that? 1062 00:59:57,292 --> 00:59:59,042 Some idiots started a rumor saying that 1063 00:59:59,501 --> 01:00:01,501 uh, they found, um... 1064 01:00:04,167 --> 01:00:05,999 children's sexual parts 1065 01:00:06,751 --> 01:00:08,959 uh, under my bed or in my house 1066 01:00:09,792 --> 01:00:11,167 and... 1067 01:00:11,292 --> 01:00:13,501 it was no body parts in my house or... 1068 01:00:18,042 --> 01:00:21,375 It's, it's, I think maybe the police had something to do with it 1069 01:00:21,501 --> 01:00:22,918 just... 1070 01:00:23,250 --> 01:00:26,083 cause how, if they can make us look bad in front of the public 1071 01:00:26,209 --> 01:00:27,626 then people are gonna... 1072 01:00:27,751 --> 01:00:29,209 kind of have their minds made up 1073 01:00:29,375 --> 01:00:31,125 before anything ever comes out 1074 01:00:43,417 --> 01:00:45,375 We wanna talk to you about all this stuff in the paper 1075 01:00:45,501 --> 01:00:47,083 about a deal with Jessie 1076 01:00:48,083 --> 01:00:49,959 um, we, right now 1077 01:00:50,083 --> 01:00:53,959 we don't know what his situation is although we think 1078 01:00:54,042 --> 01:00:56,334 that he is more inclined to testify right now 1079 01:00:56,459 --> 01:00:59,709 than he has been at any point up to now 1080 01:01:00,375 --> 01:01:02,250 The Friday that Jessie was convicted 1081 01:01:02,375 --> 01:01:04,792 they questioned him, the officers who took him down 1082 01:01:04,999 --> 01:01:06,876 inquired of him what had really happened 1083 01:01:06,999 --> 01:01:09,167 and apparently, Jessie contrary to somebody 1084 01:01:09,292 --> 01:01:11,125 that was innocent that would say things like, gee 1085 01:01:11,250 --> 01:01:12,959 I've just been convicted 1086 01:01:13,042 --> 01:01:15,167 and I didn't do it and what a terrible injustice 1087 01:01:15,292 --> 01:01:16,959 Jessie talked all the way down there about how he 1088 01:01:17,042 --> 01:01:19,876 committed the crime and specific details 1089 01:01:19,999 --> 01:01:22,459 Unfortunately, we need his testimony real bad 1090 01:01:22,999 --> 01:01:25,542 Um, if it was a perfect world 1091 01:01:26,999 --> 01:01:29,459 you know, we would take what we have on Jessie and leave it 1092 01:01:29,584 --> 01:01:31,042 and we'd go and get the other two 1093 01:01:31,751 --> 01:01:33,751 And get them and be happy, but it's not 1094 01:01:34,334 --> 01:01:35,751 and, uh... 1095 01:01:36,125 --> 01:01:39,125 we need his testimony to be sure we get convictions on the other two 1096 01:01:39,959 --> 01:01:43,209 I think we're gonna negotiate his sentence down 1097 01:01:43,334 --> 01:01:45,792 some in order to get him to testify 1098 01:01:45,918 --> 01:01:48,250 He's not gonna, you know, testify just 1099 01:01:48,751 --> 01:01:50,125 out of the goodness of his heart 1100 01:01:50,292 --> 01:01:53,709 The only way that I think that he will be willing to testify 1101 01:01:54,209 --> 01:01:56,125 is if the life sentence is removed 1102 01:01:59,417 --> 01:02:03,375 And I do wanna say all is not lost if he doesn't testify 1103 01:02:04,042 --> 01:02:07,626 Uh, but the odds are reduced significantly 1104 01:02:08,125 --> 01:02:10,667 Um, we've still got some evidence 1105 01:02:10,959 --> 01:02:13,000 What we've got besides Jessie 1106 01:02:13,999 --> 01:02:15,375 is we've got 1107 01:02:16,501 --> 01:02:20,000 a, a fiber that was found on, um... 1108 01:02:20,375 --> 01:02:22,751 it was found on Stevie's shirt 1109 01:02:23,167 --> 01:02:27,334 that matched the fiber from Jason Baldwin's mother 1110 01:02:27,459 --> 01:02:28,999 which is called secondary transfer 1111 01:02:30,459 --> 01:02:33,417 We've got a fiber from a shirt 1112 01:02:34,209 --> 01:02:37,584 or a couple of fibers from a shirt found at Echols' house 1113 01:02:38,125 --> 01:02:40,792 found, uh, one of them was on like the Cub Scout 1114 01:02:40,918 --> 01:02:43,292 Michael's Cub Scout cap another one maybe on the shirt 1115 01:02:44,125 --> 01:02:45,542 now, that matched Damien's 1116 01:02:45,792 --> 01:02:49,751 Fiber evidence it's, it's, in my opinion better than hair evidence 1117 01:02:50,209 --> 01:02:53,209 but they can't say that it came from that particular garment 1118 01:02:53,334 --> 01:02:54,834 to the exclusion of all others 1119 01:02:55,459 --> 01:02:56,918 Uh, we've got, uh... 1120 01:02:57,167 --> 01:03:01,542 the Hollingsworth clan that says they saw Damien and Domini out on the service road 1121 01:03:02,209 --> 01:03:03,626 We've got some, uh... 1122 01:03:04,417 --> 01:03:06,584 uh, kids that say that Damien at, a 1123 01:03:06,709 --> 01:03:09,876 they heard him at a girls' softball game overheard him say 1124 01:03:10,459 --> 01:03:12,459 that he killed the three boys 1125 01:03:12,918 --> 01:03:15,417 and he was gonna kill two more before he turned himself in 1126 01:03:16,501 --> 01:03:17,959 - And... - They haven't scare them off like they 1127 01:03:18,042 --> 01:03:20,334 - did the other ones? - Well, no, not yet 1128 01:03:21,626 --> 01:03:23,584 And, we've got, uh... 1129 01:03:24,292 --> 01:03:27,250 a guy that was in jail with Jason 1130 01:03:27,959 --> 01:03:30,999 who says that Jason made some incriminating statements to him 1131 01:03:31,083 --> 01:03:33,501 now, there are some things that they will, are gonna try to do 1132 01:03:33,626 --> 01:03:35,459 to attack this kid's credibility 1133 01:03:36,334 --> 01:03:39,292 But, uh, and then we've got the knife that was found 1134 01:03:39,417 --> 01:03:42,042 uh, in the lake behind Jason's house 1135 01:03:42,167 --> 01:03:44,083 so that's what we've got, but that's all 1136 01:03:44,501 --> 01:03:47,000 - basically that we've got - And you asked what the odds 1137 01:03:47,125 --> 01:03:49,042 were of convicting them without Jessie 1138 01:03:49,167 --> 01:03:52,999 and it's, uh, you know 50, 50 might be, might be good 1139 01:04:01,584 --> 01:04:04,792 The only way he'll come up there is sit down in that witness chair 1140 01:04:05,167 --> 01:04:08,042 and testify that they cut him a sweet deal 1141 01:04:09,292 --> 01:04:11,292 You take all the things that are wrong with his statement 1142 01:04:12,042 --> 01:04:14,709 and then add to the, add to the recipe mix 1143 01:04:15,125 --> 01:04:18,584 that I'm talking now because I got a sweet deal and I'm not gonna 1144 01:04:19,250 --> 01:04:20,751 I'm gonna get out in ten years 1145 01:04:21,417 --> 01:04:24,167 How pitiful. I may get out in ten years 1146 01:04:25,918 --> 01:04:27,292 well heck, who wouldn't sing? 1147 01:04:27,876 --> 01:04:30,334 You know what I'm saying? So he then he, then his evidence 1148 01:04:30,459 --> 01:04:33,375 his statement, his whole thing looks bad 1149 01:04:33,501 --> 01:04:34,918 and that's, if that's their best evidence 1150 01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:38,042 and trust me it is, if they can't use that statement against you 1151 01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:40,417 they got nothing 1152 01:04:40,999 --> 01:04:42,626 And this dog and pony show is over 1153 01:04:55,209 --> 01:04:56,626 - Good morning - Good morning 1154 01:04:57,083 --> 01:04:59,542 Are the rumors false about Jessie turning state's evidence? 1155 01:04:59,667 --> 01:05:01,042 Yes 1156 01:05:03,542 --> 01:05:05,250 - Good morning - Is it true that Jessie's going 1157 01:05:05,375 --> 01:05:07,584 - to testify against Damien and Jason? - It's false 1158 01:05:10,667 --> 01:05:14,292 I just left Jessie at the jail and he told me that he was not gonna testify 1159 01:05:14,417 --> 01:05:15,959 he, he didn't wanna get up there and lie 1160 01:05:16,626 --> 01:05:20,125 Uh, the officers have been working on him real hard, but... 1161 01:05:20,250 --> 01:05:22,125 he wasn't gonna listen to them and, uh... 1162 01:05:22,626 --> 01:05:24,042 this was his decision. It's final 1163 01:05:24,667 --> 01:05:26,375 But, he can always change his mind again 1164 01:05:26,501 --> 01:05:29,626 I, you know, he has, he's a very confused and scared kid 1165 01:05:29,751 --> 01:05:31,834 and, and the officers have scared him to death 1166 01:05:31,959 --> 01:05:34,584 Yeah, they have. Well, I told him last night, I said, Jessie 1167 01:05:34,709 --> 01:05:36,959 if you're get up there and lie I'm gonna be in that courtroom 1168 01:05:37,667 --> 01:05:39,209 And you're gonna have to sit there and tell that lie 1169 01:05:39,334 --> 01:05:41,167 when you know that I'm sitting there listening to you 1170 01:05:41,667 --> 01:05:43,709 when you know I know the truth that you're lying 1171 01:05:53,584 --> 01:05:56,000 Damien, are you in a cult? Are you in a cult, Damien? 1172 01:05:56,459 --> 01:05:58,792 Damien, are you worried about Jessie testifying against you? 1173 01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:08,000 In looking at young people involved in the occult 1174 01:06:08,459 --> 01:06:11,125 do you see any particular type of dress? 1175 01:06:11,542 --> 01:06:14,250 I have personally observed people wearing 1176 01:06:14,999 --> 01:06:16,792 uh, black fingernails 1177 01:06:17,667 --> 01:06:19,167 having their hair painted black 1178 01:06:20,042 --> 01:06:21,751 wearing black T-shirts 1179 01:06:22,876 --> 01:06:26,042 sometimes, they will tattoo themselves 1180 01:06:27,834 --> 01:06:29,959 Do you have an opinion as to whether or not 1181 01:06:30,292 --> 01:06:34,876 there are occult overtones or evidence of occult involvement 1182 01:06:35,292 --> 01:06:37,292 uh, in these particular murders? 1183 01:06:38,959 --> 01:06:41,876 Well, the date being close to 1184 01:06:41,999 --> 01:06:43,626 uh, Veltane 1185 01:06:44,751 --> 01:06:46,584 - What is that? - A holiday, May 1st 1186 01:06:47,501 --> 01:06:50,751 Also, uh, the day before that is Walpurgnacht 1187 01:06:52,042 --> 01:06:54,999 Then you go into, uh, the fact that some 1188 01:06:55,542 --> 01:06:58,876 uh, groups of occult cult groups 1189 01:06:59,042 --> 01:07:01,792 or, uh, will use a full moon 1190 01:07:03,501 --> 01:07:06,667 Uh, in several occult books 1191 01:07:07,459 --> 01:07:10,584 they will talk about the life force of the blood 1192 01:07:11,626 --> 01:07:14,709 usually the younger the individual 1193 01:07:15,083 --> 01:07:16,667 the more pure it is 1194 01:07:17,751 --> 01:07:19,959 The more power or the force it has 1195 01:07:20,542 --> 01:07:22,417 A lot of times they will take blood 1196 01:07:22,626 --> 01:07:24,834 and store it for other services 1197 01:07:25,667 --> 01:07:27,042 and other use 1198 01:07:27,292 --> 01:07:30,000 as well as consume it, or bathe in it 1199 01:07:31,542 --> 01:07:32,959 Now, the... 1200 01:07:33,792 --> 01:07:36,292 the items drawn on the front 1201 01:07:36,834 --> 01:07:38,417 - uh, what is that? - That is a... 1202 01:07:38,709 --> 01:07:41,209 that is a pentagram, that happens to be a wiccan 1203 01:07:41,626 --> 01:07:43,709 or white witchcraft pentagram 1204 01:07:43,834 --> 01:07:47,292 All right, now if you'd open look to the front page 1205 01:07:48,083 --> 01:07:49,501 - Yes, sir - All right 1206 01:07:51,083 --> 01:07:54,250 Now, explain what that is 1207 01:07:54,375 --> 01:07:56,167 - That's confusion to me - All right 1208 01:07:56,292 --> 01:07:58,667 And the reason why, we got a, a white witchcraft 1209 01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:01,709 uh, wiccan, pentagram 1210 01:08:02,292 --> 01:08:04,083 then we have upside down crosses 1211 01:08:04,459 --> 01:08:07,083 which comes from another type of occultism 1212 01:08:07,209 --> 01:08:08,959 What type of occultism do the upside down 1213 01:08:09,042 --> 01:08:10,459 - crosses... - That's black witchcraft 1214 01:08:10,709 --> 01:08:13,501 Is it Wicca, Satanism or both? 1215 01:08:14,042 --> 01:08:15,459 - both - Okay 1216 01:08:15,667 --> 01:08:18,375 And did you notice anything in particular 1217 01:08:18,751 --> 01:08:20,209 uh, about the book? 1218 01:08:20,417 --> 01:08:22,584 There's a chapter in here called Rise of the Devil 1219 01:08:23,792 --> 01:08:25,375 and, uh... 1220 01:08:27,584 --> 01:08:29,667 it is underlined in red 1221 01:08:30,375 --> 01:08:33,459 and there. there is a couple sentences in there 1222 01:08:33,584 --> 01:08:37,751 reference to uh, blood and its life force 1223 01:08:40,000 --> 01:08:42,584 How, how were you accepted into enrollment 1224 01:08:42,876 --> 01:08:44,876 at Colombia Pacific University? 1225 01:08:45,375 --> 01:08:47,250 I had to fill out a, uh... 1226 01:08:47,501 --> 01:08:50,792 and several series of papers including all my education 1227 01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:53,459 background, experience 1228 01:08:54,042 --> 01:08:57,042 Did you ever fill out a little flier like this? 1229 01:08:57,250 --> 01:08:58,667 - No, sir - That said 1230 01:08:59,417 --> 01:09:01,792 call toll free for information on how to become a doctor? 1231 01:09:05,709 --> 01:09:07,709 This is a mail order college, isn't it? 1232 01:09:08,459 --> 01:09:12,501 What classes did you take between 1980 and 1982 1233 01:09:12,626 --> 01:09:14,417 to obtain your master's degree? 1234 01:09:16,209 --> 01:09:18,501 - What classes... I testified - What classes? 1235 01:09:18,834 --> 01:09:20,417 I'm asking you what classes 1236 01:09:20,834 --> 01:09:22,417 - what classes did you take? - I said... 1237 01:09:22,542 --> 01:09:24,334 I told you, I answered that before, none 1238 01:09:24,459 --> 01:09:26,209 You did not take any classes 1239 01:09:26,834 --> 01:09:31,209 between 1982 and 1984 when you became a Ph.D. 1240 01:09:31,626 --> 01:09:33,167 What classes did you take? 1241 01:09:33,542 --> 01:09:34,959 - None - None 1242 01:09:35,626 --> 01:09:37,000 Okay 1243 01:09:38,042 --> 01:09:39,459 Is it your opinion 1244 01:09:39,792 --> 01:09:41,501 and do you want to tell this jury 1245 01:09:43,709 --> 01:09:45,834 that these crimes 1246 01:09:46,250 --> 01:09:48,459 were motivated by occult beliefs? 1247 01:09:48,918 --> 01:09:50,292 Yes 1248 01:09:56,751 --> 01:09:59,125 "We're not trash, by no means" 1249 01:09:59,751 --> 01:10:01,834 My son was born in West Memphis 1250 01:10:01,959 --> 01:10:03,375 he was raised in West Memphis 1251 01:10:04,083 --> 01:10:06,375 and for the life of me I cannot understand 1252 01:10:06,501 --> 01:10:09,125 why people has got this bad image of him 1253 01:10:10,542 --> 01:10:13,542 So what if he wore a black trenchcoat 1254 01:10:14,792 --> 01:10:16,334 He's not the only one that does 1255 01:10:18,584 --> 01:10:21,250 You know, so what if he wore black T-shirts 1256 01:10:21,375 --> 01:10:22,792 black pants 1257 01:10:23,584 --> 01:10:25,417 Johnny Cash wears black, doesn't he? 1258 01:10:25,792 --> 01:10:28,501 Well, I wear black, Michelle wears black 1259 01:10:29,417 --> 01:10:31,667 - Um, Domini wears black - I wear black 1260 01:10:32,125 --> 01:10:35,250 It's we're all just partial to black, I guess 1261 01:10:35,751 --> 01:10:37,250 I like black myself 1262 01:10:38,250 --> 01:10:42,584 And I'm by no means no devil worshipper, nor is he 1263 01:10:43,292 --> 01:10:45,792 He was going to school, he wanted to go to school to be a priest 1264 01:10:46,375 --> 01:10:48,167 He was faithful in the church 1265 01:10:48,709 --> 01:10:52,709 and he looked into a little bit of Wicca 1266 01:10:53,125 --> 01:10:55,459 but he, he never went to it 1267 01:10:55,584 --> 01:10:57,000 and I think if people looked into what 1268 01:10:57,501 --> 01:11:00,292 to what Wicca is, they would understand it a little better 1269 01:11:00,792 --> 01:11:04,876 The only thing wiccans do is worship the earth 1270 01:11:13,667 --> 01:11:15,959 People probably think that I'm in Satanism because 1271 01:11:17,125 --> 01:11:19,959 usually what people don't understand they try to destroy 1272 01:11:21,918 --> 01:11:23,292 or ridicule 1273 01:11:24,334 --> 01:11:26,042 try to make it look bad or wrong 1274 01:11:29,626 --> 01:11:31,334 West Memphis is pretty much like 1275 01:11:32,042 --> 01:11:34,626 sick as Salem, right now 1276 01:11:36,125 --> 01:11:38,876 Because everything that happens there every crime no matter what it is 1277 01:11:38,999 --> 01:11:40,667 it's blamed an Satanism 1278 01:11:46,751 --> 01:11:48,292 You've been previously sworn 1279 01:11:48,751 --> 01:11:50,125 - Yes - Yes, sir. That's correct 1280 01:11:53,751 --> 01:11:55,125 Please state your name for the court 1281 01:11:55,334 --> 01:11:56,876 Damien Wayne Echols 1282 01:11:57,042 --> 01:11:58,459 Why did you change your name? 1283 01:11:59,417 --> 01:12:01,292 I was very involved in the Catholic church 1284 01:12:02,334 --> 01:12:04,167 And we were going over different names 1285 01:12:04,292 --> 01:12:07,083 of the saints, St. Michael's was where I went to church at 1286 01:12:07,959 --> 01:12:09,459 And we heard about this 1287 01:12:09,751 --> 01:12:13,209 uh, guy from the Hawaiian, uh Hawaiian Islands 1288 01:12:13,751 --> 01:12:15,417 um, Father Damien 1289 01:12:15,542 --> 01:12:17,042 that took care of lepers 1290 01:12:17,999 --> 01:12:20,542 until he finally caught the disease his self and died 1291 01:12:21,042 --> 01:12:23,626 All right, was that the reason you chose Damien as your first name? 1292 01:12:23,751 --> 01:12:25,709 - Yes, it is - Okay, did the choosing of the name 1293 01:12:25,834 --> 01:12:30,167 Damien have anything to do with any type of horror movies 1294 01:12:30,292 --> 01:12:32,999 Satanism, cultism, any of that nature? 1295 01:12:33,083 --> 01:12:34,501 - Nothing whatsoever - Okay 1296 01:12:34,959 --> 01:12:38,626 All right, after the time period that you were really into the Catholic religion 1297 01:12:39,083 --> 01:12:42,000 did you start focusing on another particular religion? 1298 01:12:43,417 --> 01:12:45,000 - Wicca - Wicca, all right 1299 01:12:45,125 --> 01:12:46,751 Could you explain to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury 1300 01:12:47,209 --> 01:12:50,292 what, some principles about the Wicca religion 1301 01:12:51,083 --> 01:12:52,501 Um... 1302 01:12:52,792 --> 01:12:56,167 it acknowledges a goddess in a higher regard as a god 1303 01:12:56,292 --> 01:12:59,334 because people have always said we're all God's children 1304 01:12:59,876 --> 01:13:01,459 and men cannot have children 1305 01:13:02,459 --> 01:13:03,876 Um... 1306 01:13:04,167 --> 01:13:07,667 it's basically like a close involvement with nature 1307 01:13:08,584 --> 01:13:10,292 Is there a difference between 1308 01:13:10,834 --> 01:13:12,959 the Wicca religion and witchcraft? 1309 01:13:14,542 --> 01:13:16,375 Wicca is also called witchcraft 1310 01:13:16,501 --> 01:13:18,918 the word, uh, Wicca was bastardized 1311 01:13:19,000 --> 01:13:20,667 it originally meant wise one 1312 01:13:21,417 --> 01:13:22,959 Did the fact that 1313 01:13:23,626 --> 01:13:25,209 you like to wear black all the time 1314 01:13:26,584 --> 01:13:28,667 were you different in other ways as well? 1315 01:13:29,876 --> 01:13:32,250 Yes, I've never had a lot of the same interests 1316 01:13:32,375 --> 01:13:34,334 that other people have like sports 1317 01:13:34,459 --> 01:13:36,459 things like that, I've never been into anything like that 1318 01:13:37,000 --> 01:13:38,417 Well, did it 1319 01:13:39,292 --> 01:13:41,042 did it help you deal with other people 1320 01:13:41,292 --> 01:13:42,709 to have people kind of 1321 01:13:42,999 --> 01:13:44,959 standoffish and sort of back away from you? 1322 01:13:45,209 --> 01:13:46,709 Yeah, it would make 1323 01:13:46,999 --> 01:13:49,250 it was like a defense mechanism it would make people think like 1324 01:13:50,125 --> 01:13:52,000 well, he's weird, I'm not gonna go around him 1325 01:13:52,125 --> 01:13:53,999 so, it kept people away 1326 01:13:54,459 --> 01:13:56,209 The state had introduced 1327 01:13:56,334 --> 01:13:58,667 the book Never On A Broomstick 1328 01:14:00,250 --> 01:14:01,999 Are familiar with that particular book? 1329 01:14:02,167 --> 01:14:03,751 - Yes, I am - All right, where did you 1330 01:14:03,876 --> 01:14:05,250 get that book, Damien? 1331 01:14:05,459 --> 01:14:07,626 At the library in Crittenden County 1332 01:14:07,751 --> 01:14:09,584 all the books that they were, uh 1333 01:14:09,709 --> 01:14:11,501 getting tired of or had for a long time, I guess 1334 01:14:11,918 --> 01:14:13,584 they all had them sitting on a rack 1335 01:14:13,709 --> 01:14:17,501 out from that they were selling for 10 cents each, so, I got it 1336 01:14:17,709 --> 01:14:21,334 All right, did you underline any of those portions in the book? 1337 01:14:21,459 --> 01:14:23,876 No, that was done when I got it I think it was because somebody 1338 01:14:23,999 --> 01:14:25,834 had a report to do or something because all through the books 1339 01:14:25,959 --> 01:14:27,876 there's like little notes, uh... 1340 01:14:27,999 --> 01:14:29,584 certain dates and stuff 1341 01:14:29,709 --> 01:14:31,083 like from the 1600s 1342 01:14:31,209 --> 01:14:32,999 in the outside margin 1343 01:14:33,417 --> 01:14:36,125 So, was that book kind of like a history of, of witchcraft? 1344 01:14:36,250 --> 01:14:37,959 - and how it's developed over the ages? - Yes 1345 01:14:38,042 --> 01:14:39,459 - Yes - Okay 1346 01:14:39,626 --> 01:14:42,459 Are you familiar with the contents of that notebook? 1347 01:14:42,667 --> 01:14:44,792 - Yes, I am - I noticed on the inside 1348 01:14:44,918 --> 01:14:47,584 of the front cover there, there appears to be a couple of quotes there 1349 01:14:48,042 --> 01:14:49,459 - Yes - Could you, uh... 1350 01:14:49,626 --> 01:14:52,709 read each of those to the jury and then tell them where that came from 1351 01:14:54,042 --> 01:14:55,834 "Life is but a walking shadow" 1352 01:14:55,959 --> 01:14:57,542 "it is a tale told by an idiot" 1353 01:14:57,667 --> 01:14:59,959 "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing" 1354 01:15:00,459 --> 01:15:04,999 That's from A Midsummer Night's Dream by William Shakespeare, um 1355 01:15:05,417 --> 01:15:06,959 "Pure black looking clear" 1356 01:15:07,042 --> 01:15:08,626 "my work is soon done here" 1357 01:15:08,751 --> 01:15:11,125 "try getting back from me that which used to be" 1358 01:15:11,751 --> 01:15:13,959 That is of a Metallica tape 1359 01:15:14,250 --> 01:15:15,667 called Injustice for all 1360 01:15:16,042 --> 01:15:18,918 talks about how warped the court systems are 1361 01:15:19,751 --> 01:15:21,334 and stuff like that 1362 01:15:21,542 --> 01:15:23,292 On May the 5th 1363 01:15:24,918 --> 01:15:26,959 did you kill Michael Moore? 1364 01:15:27,042 --> 01:15:28,459 No, I did not 1365 01:15:28,959 --> 01:15:30,501 On May the 5th 1366 01:15:30,959 --> 01:15:33,751 - did you kill Stevie Branch? - No, I did not 1367 01:15:34,584 --> 01:15:36,167 On May the 5th 1368 01:15:36,292 --> 01:15:38,000 did you kill Chris Byers? 1369 01:15:38,125 --> 01:15:39,542 No, I did not 1370 01:15:39,667 --> 01:15:42,417 Have you ever participated in any type of human sacrifice? 1371 01:15:42,542 --> 01:15:43,959 No, I have not 1372 01:15:45,792 --> 01:15:48,999 19 year old Damien Echols admits he stands out in a crowd 1373 01:15:49,292 --> 01:15:51,125 He says he loves heavy metal music 1374 01:15:51,334 --> 01:15:52,751 like... 1375 01:15:53,959 --> 01:15:56,792 Sure that little... Practices the Wicca religion 1376 01:15:56,918 --> 01:15:59,125 3, 2, 1 1377 01:15:59,626 --> 01:16:03,751 19 year old Damien Echols says he's. 3, 2, 1 1378 01:16:05,083 --> 01:16:08,417 19 year old Damien Echols admits he stands out in a crowd 1379 01:16:08,751 --> 01:16:10,918 He says he likes to wear black most of the time 1380 01:16:11,167 --> 01:16:12,751 practices the Wicca religion 1381 01:16:12,999 --> 01:16:14,417 and loves heavy metal music 1382 01:16:14,542 --> 01:16:16,959 but he says he's definitely not a killer 1383 01:16:20,292 --> 01:16:21,999 "I believe they did it" 1384 01:16:22,459 --> 01:16:26,083 and if they were to be set free on the street 1385 01:16:26,501 --> 01:16:28,959 then they would have to look behind their back 1386 01:16:29,042 --> 01:16:31,000 watch behind their back to see if Pam Hobbs 1387 01:16:31,125 --> 01:16:32,959 wasn't following them because... 1388 01:16:33,751 --> 01:16:35,834 I'm just saying this as a human, you know 1389 01:16:37,125 --> 01:16:39,292 I, I would, I believe I'd try to kill them too 1390 01:16:40,209 --> 01:16:42,959 if they ever walked the streets and I'm still alive 1391 01:16:44,042 --> 01:16:45,876 I believe I'd be stalking them 1392 01:16:46,876 --> 01:16:48,292 To do to them... 1393 01:16:49,792 --> 01:16:51,167 probably shoot them 1394 01:16:51,375 --> 01:16:52,792 and then cut them up 1395 01:16:52,918 --> 01:16:55,626 When I was at the courtroom and Damien walked past me 1396 01:16:55,751 --> 01:16:57,584 I wanted to just go over there and take my hand 1397 01:16:57,709 --> 01:16:59,209 and just claw down his face 1398 01:16:59,751 --> 01:17:03,209 Inflict any kind of pain that I could inflict on him 1399 01:17:03,709 --> 01:17:05,999 I know eventually we're gonna have to forgive him 1400 01:17:06,083 --> 01:17:07,667 I know that and I understand that 1401 01:17:08,626 --> 01:17:11,375 But when it happens in your home and you watch your 1402 01:17:11,709 --> 01:17:13,792 your wife lose her mind, you know 1403 01:17:13,918 --> 01:17:15,375 whatever happened to her 1404 01:17:15,751 --> 01:17:17,584 your home is tore apart 1405 01:17:17,709 --> 01:17:19,083 busted up 1406 01:17:19,334 --> 01:17:21,042 I don't feel it's fair 1407 01:17:21,792 --> 01:17:24,626 right now for someone to ask me to forgive 1408 01:17:24,959 --> 01:17:26,501 the ones that caused it 1409 01:17:28,209 --> 01:17:29,667 It, It'd take some time 1410 01:17:30,083 --> 01:17:32,334 a long time before I could forgive them 1411 01:17:32,584 --> 01:17:35,000 You, you say that it's gonna take time 1412 01:17:35,959 --> 01:17:38,334 We don't know how much time we got 1413 01:17:39,125 --> 01:17:41,501 Pam, we wouldn't be able to see Stevie again 1414 01:17:41,626 --> 01:17:43,542 We have to forgive in our heart 1415 01:17:43,667 --> 01:17:45,042 because the Lord 1416 01:17:46,292 --> 01:17:47,834 forgave us 1417 01:17:48,292 --> 01:17:49,709 He forgave us 1418 01:17:49,834 --> 01:17:54,542 He shedded his blood for us He shedded his blood for them 1419 01:17:56,667 --> 01:17:59,459 And, he just, he just asks us to 1420 01:17:59,999 --> 01:18:01,375 to have a... 1421 01:18:01,584 --> 01:18:03,042 a, a forgiving spirit 1422 01:18:03,375 --> 01:18:04,792 And I refuse 1423 01:18:05,250 --> 01:18:06,834 to serve sin and Satan 1424 01:18:10,000 --> 01:18:11,876 Because I'm gonna see Stevie again 1425 01:18:11,999 --> 01:18:15,167 I'm gonna be with Stevie again I'm gonna be with my mother again 1426 01:18:15,709 --> 01:18:18,292 I'm gonna be with her mother, your grandmothers, both of them 1427 01:18:19,918 --> 01:18:21,709 I'm gonna be with all my loved ones 1428 01:18:22,626 --> 01:18:24,250 that have passed on and went to Heaven 1429 01:18:49,250 --> 01:18:51,250 If you could speak to the families 1430 01:18:52,584 --> 01:18:54,999 of these, of these kids who think you did it 1431 01:18:55,542 --> 01:18:56,959 you know, what would you say to them? 1432 01:19:09,667 --> 01:19:11,042 I don't know 1433 01:19:16,999 --> 01:19:19,709 Jason was my best friend, we did about everything together 1434 01:19:21,542 --> 01:19:23,709 It was kind of like we even lived together most of the time 1435 01:19:23,959 --> 01:19:25,417 stayed at each other's houses 1436 01:19:25,667 --> 01:19:27,209 wore each other's clothes 1437 01:19:28,417 --> 01:19:30,042 It was more like we were brothers 1438 01:19:30,167 --> 01:19:32,334 We used to go out and snake hunt all the time 1439 01:19:34,125 --> 01:19:37,375 Snakes and music were like about our whole life really 1440 01:19:41,167 --> 01:19:44,375 We lis, we were like all the time looking for new groups 1441 01:19:45,626 --> 01:19:48,125 that we would like or something our favorite kind of music 1442 01:19:48,250 --> 01:19:49,876 were like Slayer, Metallica 1443 01:19:50,167 --> 01:19:51,584 Megadeth 1444 01:19:53,918 --> 01:19:55,292 U2 1445 01:20:00,626 --> 01:20:02,334 We'd do just about everything together 1446 01:20:06,584 --> 01:20:10,292 Now, I wanna draw your attention back to August of last year 1447 01:20:10,417 --> 01:20:13,375 were you in the Creget County Juvenile Detention Facility? 1448 01:20:13,542 --> 01:20:15,459 - Yes, I was - Okay, what were you in there 1449 01:20:15,584 --> 01:20:16,999 - for at the time? - Burglary 1450 01:20:17,167 --> 01:20:18,876 Okay, and... 1451 01:20:19,918 --> 01:20:21,292 when you were there 1452 01:20:21,876 --> 01:20:26,542 was there a Jason Baldwin in the general detention facility at the same time? 1453 01:20:26,792 --> 01:20:29,125 - Yes - Now, while you were in contact 1454 01:20:29,250 --> 01:20:30,667 with this Jason Baldwin 1455 01:20:30,834 --> 01:20:33,542 was there anything mentioned about this involvement 1456 01:20:33,667 --> 01:20:35,417 in the murders of the three 8 year olds? 1457 01:20:35,626 --> 01:20:37,542 Yes, well, he was sitting up playing spades 1458 01:20:37,667 --> 01:20:40,250 and I wanted to get to know everybody off in there 1459 01:20:40,709 --> 01:20:43,417 cause, I don't know what you call it, but 1460 01:20:43,542 --> 01:20:44,959 I just wanted to get to know 1461 01:20:45,209 --> 01:20:46,999 And I just straight out asked him if he did it 1462 01:20:47,083 --> 01:20:48,999 he denied it. First time 1463 01:20:49,250 --> 01:20:51,542 Okay. Did you have an occasion again 1464 01:20:51,667 --> 01:20:54,000 while you were in the detention facility to ask him 1465 01:20:54,417 --> 01:20:57,000 was he involved in the murders of the three 8 year olds 1466 01:20:57,459 --> 01:21:00,083 Yes, I think it was like the next day 1467 01:21:00,959 --> 01:21:02,334 I believe it was the next day 1468 01:21:03,250 --> 01:21:06,751 And can you tell us what the scenar, what was going on 1469 01:21:06,876 --> 01:21:08,709 what was happening at the time that occurred? 1470 01:21:08,876 --> 01:21:11,834 Well, me and Jason Baldwin were scraping up the cards 1471 01:21:12,292 --> 01:21:15,834 going ourselves for lunch, I said just between me and you, I won't say a word 1472 01:21:16,584 --> 01:21:18,167 Uh, did you do it? And he said yes 1473 01:21:18,292 --> 01:21:19,792 and he went into detail about it 1474 01:21:20,292 --> 01:21:22,584 You said he went in more detail what did he tell you? 1475 01:21:23,000 --> 01:21:24,584 He told me, uh 1476 01:21:24,709 --> 01:21:26,083 how he dismembered the kid 1477 01:21:26,626 --> 01:21:29,584 or I don't know exactly how many kids he just said he dismembered them 1478 01:21:30,209 --> 01:21:31,709 he sucked the blood from the penis 1479 01:21:31,834 --> 01:21:34,000 and the scrotum, and put the balls in his mouth 1480 01:21:35,000 --> 01:21:36,459 Now, Michael 1481 01:21:36,751 --> 01:21:38,667 when was it that 1482 01:21:38,999 --> 01:21:42,083 you came forward with this information? 1483 01:21:42,542 --> 01:21:45,751 I'm not really sure, I believe it was like a couple of months later 1484 01:21:45,959 --> 01:21:48,375 What caused you to some forward 1485 01:21:48,626 --> 01:21:50,542 at that point in time, why, why 1486 01:21:50,667 --> 01:21:53,751 did Michael Carson no longer wanna stay uninvolved 1487 01:21:53,876 --> 01:21:55,709 why didn't you come forward in February this year? 1488 01:21:55,918 --> 01:21:57,584 Cause I saw the family on TV 1489 01:21:58,250 --> 01:22:00,959 Saw how broken hearted they were about their children being missing 1490 01:22:01,042 --> 01:22:03,459 And I got a soft heart, I couldn't take it 1491 01:22:17,292 --> 01:22:20,167 Now, he tells you this and then you're silent 1492 01:22:21,459 --> 01:22:22,876 from August 1493 01:22:24,167 --> 01:22:26,375 until February, is that right? 1494 01:22:26,501 --> 01:22:29,042 - Yes, sir - And then the second conversation 1495 01:22:29,167 --> 01:22:32,042 you've ever had with this young man in his entire life 1496 01:22:32,584 --> 01:22:34,083 he tells you all this stuff 1497 01:22:34,417 --> 01:22:35,959 - Yes, sir - After he's had one 1498 01:22:36,042 --> 01:22:38,709 - conversation with you - Yes, sir 1499 01:22:42,334 --> 01:22:45,042 "One day when I was up here in Jonesboro working and the phone rings" 1500 01:22:45,667 --> 01:22:48,834 secretary says, you won't know who he is but he needs to talk to you 1501 01:22:48,959 --> 01:22:50,501 I pick up the phone, he says I'm Danny Williams 1502 01:22:50,626 --> 01:22:52,250 I'm embarrassed to tell you what I need to tell you 1503 01:22:52,501 --> 01:22:54,042 He said, but I work with the... 1504 01:22:54,167 --> 01:22:57,125 the Juvenile Department here and I do drug and alcohol counseling 1505 01:22:58,167 --> 01:23:00,459 And there's a guy named Michael Carson 1506 01:23:01,584 --> 01:23:04,292 who's gonna testify that Jason confessed to him in the jail 1507 01:23:04,626 --> 01:23:06,000 and I know he's lying 1508 01:23:06,584 --> 01:23:08,042 I said, what are you talking about? He said, well 1509 01:23:08,501 --> 01:23:09,918 he said, several months ago 1510 01:23:10,709 --> 01:23:13,250 Michael Carson was one of the kids that I worked with 1511 01:23:14,125 --> 01:23:17,167 And... he and I had a conversation 1512 01:23:17,709 --> 01:23:19,876 where I told him that this Jason Baldwin 1513 01:23:21,125 --> 01:23:22,999 had been accused of killing 3 boys 1514 01:23:23,083 --> 01:23:24,501 and sexually mutilating them 1515 01:23:24,834 --> 01:23:28,042 And basically, he gave Michael Carson 1516 01:23:28,167 --> 01:23:30,375 the details that he testifies to at the trial 1517 01:23:31,375 --> 01:23:33,000 At the time Carson says nothing 1518 01:23:34,083 --> 01:23:37,167 And, then he later, Carson later tells him 1519 01:23:37,334 --> 01:23:41,292 he says, hey, by the way Danny I've, I'm telling the police 1520 01:23:41,918 --> 01:23:43,501 you know, Jason confessed to me 1521 01:23:43,876 --> 01:23:47,125 And so he calls me up, said, hey no, no, no, he said, this kid's a liar 1522 01:23:47,542 --> 01:23:49,501 he's no good, I know he's lying 1523 01:23:49,792 --> 01:23:51,459 And the only reason he's got this information 1524 01:23:51,584 --> 01:23:54,167 - is because I gave it to him - The counselor of this kid 1525 01:23:54,292 --> 01:23:56,042 called the prosecution and told them 1526 01:23:56,751 --> 01:23:58,125 what a liar he was 1527 01:23:58,375 --> 01:24:00,083 and the prosecution still used the kid 1528 01:24:00,209 --> 01:24:02,000 - That's right - and now they're trying to keep out 1529 01:24:02,125 --> 01:24:04,542 the fact, the background of the kid 1530 01:24:04,792 --> 01:24:06,459 Obviously we wanna get that information out 1531 01:24:06,584 --> 01:24:08,999 but the judge acts like he may not let us use him at all 1532 01:24:09,667 --> 01:24:11,792 We should absolutely be able to 1533 01:24:12,334 --> 01:24:15,459 uh, le the jury know that he is LSD dependent 1534 01:24:15,584 --> 01:24:18,125 because it does affect his ability to recall 1535 01:24:18,417 --> 01:24:20,834 You know, the judge takes us, takes all that away from us 1536 01:24:20,959 --> 01:24:23,000 - yeah, the kid looks pretty believable - Not only are they 1537 01:24:23,125 --> 01:24:25,834 are they keeping out the background of the kid when he testifies 1538 01:24:25,959 --> 01:24:27,999 so the jury doesn't have all the eggs 1539 01:24:28,417 --> 01:24:31,542 but now they're keeping out the counselor who even knows about this kid 1540 01:24:31,667 --> 01:24:33,918 who told them the story in the first place 1541 01:24:34,292 --> 01:24:35,999 prior to him ever telling the police 1542 01:24:36,375 --> 01:24:38,083 All that goes to the credibility 1543 01:24:38,209 --> 01:24:41,292 I think that would've shown the jury that he didn't have that kind heart 1544 01:24:41,667 --> 01:24:43,292 - that, uh, soft heart that, uh - Yeah 1545 01:24:43,417 --> 01:24:44,834 - he tried to tell... - That's right 1546 01:24:54,209 --> 01:24:57,167 Detective Allen, I want to direct your attention to, uh 1547 01:24:57,417 --> 01:24:59,999 November 17th, 1993 1548 01:25:00,083 --> 01:25:01,584 were you asked to, uh... 1549 01:25:02,209 --> 01:25:04,083 make contact with some, uh 1550 01:25:04,209 --> 01:25:06,876 property owners at Lakeshore Trailer Park 1551 01:25:06,999 --> 01:25:10,375 and also get with the Arkansas State Police dive team? 1552 01:25:10,792 --> 01:25:12,792 - Yes, sir. I was - And, uh... 1553 01:25:12,918 --> 01:25:15,125 after a period of time, of 1554 01:25:15,250 --> 01:25:16,667 of, um... 1555 01:25:17,918 --> 01:25:20,584 searching, do you know whether any items were recovered? 1556 01:25:21,999 --> 01:25:23,375 - Uh, yes, sir - All right 1557 01:25:23,626 --> 01:25:26,792 Marked for identification purposes is state's exhibit 77 1558 01:25:26,918 --> 01:25:28,584 and I ask you if you can identify that 1559 01:25:37,459 --> 01:25:40,542 Yes, uh, I can identify this by my 1560 01:25:41,292 --> 01:25:45,375 uh, 11, 17 of 93 1561 01:25:45,501 --> 01:25:47,626 M. Allen, that I put here 1562 01:25:48,250 --> 01:25:49,918 - Where did you get the knife? - I, I got this knife 1563 01:25:50,000 --> 01:25:52,959 from a diver with the with the state police 1564 01:25:53,334 --> 01:25:54,918 How long did this search take place? 1565 01:25:55,459 --> 01:25:56,876 - How long? - Yes, sir 1566 01:25:58,000 --> 01:26:01,959 From my memory, I'm thinking maybe 10, 30 a.m. is about the time they got suited up 1567 01:26:02,042 --> 01:26:03,999 and, and started, started to look 1568 01:26:04,083 --> 01:26:06,000 And you quit, you quit it when? 1569 01:26:06,542 --> 01:26:08,042 They located the... 1570 01:26:09,751 --> 01:26:13,334 knife at 11, 35 a.m. 1571 01:26:14,083 --> 01:26:15,959 - So what, it... - Or 11, 30, 11, 35 1572 01:26:16,042 --> 01:26:18,959 - About an hour. Could you... - About an hour and a half, yeah 1573 01:26:19,542 --> 01:26:22,999 Are you telling this jury that this knife is the murder weapon? 1574 01:26:23,501 --> 01:26:24,918 Is that what you're telling this jury? 1575 01:26:25,000 --> 01:26:26,459 No, sir, I'm not telling the jury that 1576 01:26:26,584 --> 01:26:28,375 Okay, now that we get, let me tell you that 1577 01:26:28,959 --> 01:26:31,459 What day were these individuals charged? 1578 01:26:31,584 --> 01:26:33,626 what day did you all charge Damien Echols 1579 01:26:33,751 --> 01:26:36,292 with this crime? Was it June the 3rd? 1580 01:26:36,542 --> 01:26:38,250 - Yes, sir - And what day was it 1581 01:26:38,375 --> 01:26:40,000 that you were out there searching this lake? 1582 01:26:40,959 --> 01:26:43,542 This was on 11, 17 of 93 1583 01:26:44,125 --> 01:26:46,292 November 17 of 1993 1584 01:26:46,417 --> 01:26:47,834 - Yes, sir - That's all 1585 01:26:54,292 --> 01:26:56,292 The damn system stinks 1586 01:26:59,501 --> 01:27:00,918 They're playing with our lives 1587 01:27:01,042 --> 01:27:02,626 and there's nothing right about it 1588 01:27:03,083 --> 01:27:04,751 It's kind of like the Nazis, you know 1589 01:27:04,876 --> 01:27:06,375 they can just take somebody's word 1590 01:27:06,501 --> 01:27:08,999 and come in their house and take you away 1591 01:27:11,000 --> 01:27:12,626 And basically, that's what they did 1592 01:27:12,751 --> 01:27:14,417 because of what Jessie told them 1593 01:27:14,918 --> 01:27:17,375 Even though it had all those inconsistencies in it 1594 01:27:17,501 --> 01:27:19,918 If we had money, do you think these 3 boys would've been picked up? 1595 01:27:21,292 --> 01:27:23,751 They found people that they knew that didn't have money 1596 01:27:23,876 --> 01:27:25,542 some boys that been in a little bit of trouble 1597 01:27:25,667 --> 01:27:27,042 They thought we didn't care 1598 01:27:27,792 --> 01:27:29,167 They were wrong 1599 01:27:29,501 --> 01:27:30,918 They're bad wrong 1600 01:27:31,334 --> 01:27:33,542 I don't believe that chil, that children 1601 01:27:33,999 --> 01:27:36,667 could be that cold blooded 1602 01:27:36,876 --> 01:27:38,542 as what happened to those boys 1603 01:27:39,751 --> 01:27:41,709 And state's exhibit 67-A 1604 01:27:41,834 --> 01:27:43,209 shows the, um... 1605 01:27:44,459 --> 01:27:47,751 the hogtying fashion on the the hands were hogtied 1606 01:27:48,083 --> 01:27:51,375 um, to the feet, behind the back and this is the photograph 1607 01:27:51,751 --> 01:27:54,999 um, showing that the shoelaces 1608 01:27:57,125 --> 01:27:58,542 And that injury, um... 1609 01:27:59,042 --> 01:28:02,000 you say is, is typical of a of a belt injury 1610 01:28:02,125 --> 01:28:04,334 the belt has a little buckle and that's what the 1611 01:28:04,459 --> 01:28:07,292 the buckle, that's that little one that goes back and forth, left and right 1612 01:28:07,417 --> 01:28:09,501 that's the base of the, the latch 1613 01:28:10,626 --> 01:28:13,000 Here, this red area here 1614 01:28:13,125 --> 01:28:15,250 this is the, uh, the shaft of the penis 1615 01:28:15,999 --> 01:28:19,125 And here is where the scrotal sack and testies should be and they're missing 1616 01:28:19,751 --> 01:28:21,459 So, what we have is that the, the skin 1617 01:28:21,584 --> 01:28:23,667 covering the penis and the head of the penis 1618 01:28:23,918 --> 01:28:25,792 had been copped off it's gone, it's not there 1619 01:28:27,375 --> 01:28:29,999 In layman's language, that I, I understand 1620 01:28:32,125 --> 01:28:35,751 with respect, his penis has not been cut off, has it? 1621 01:28:36,042 --> 01:28:38,292 No, the, the skin has, has been taken off the penis 1622 01:28:38,918 --> 01:28:42,000 And basically, it would take some skill 1623 01:28:42,334 --> 01:28:44,584 and precision to do that, wouldn't it? 1624 01:28:45,709 --> 01:28:47,083 - I would think so - Okay 1625 01:28:47,209 --> 01:28:48,626 If this was to be done 1626 01:28:49,125 --> 01:28:50,542 this dissection 1627 01:28:50,999 --> 01:28:52,459 where the skin is cut off 1628 01:28:54,083 --> 01:28:56,209 that would take a very sharp instrument, would it not? 1629 01:28:56,999 --> 01:28:58,999 - Um, I think it would - Okay 1630 01:28:59,125 --> 01:29:01,501 - Such as a razor - Or a sharp knife 1631 01:29:01,626 --> 01:29:03,000 - Or a very sharp knife - Right 1632 01:29:03,250 --> 01:29:04,792 Doctor, if you were to do this 1633 01:29:04,918 --> 01:29:07,626 with the skill and the precision and the knowledge that you take 1634 01:29:08,125 --> 01:29:09,999 how long would it take you to do that? 1635 01:29:10,083 --> 01:29:11,501 It would take me some time 1636 01:29:11,959 --> 01:29:13,999 It'd take you longer than 5 to 10 minutes 1637 01:29:14,083 --> 01:29:16,459 - I would think so - And that's at, in your lab 1638 01:29:18,125 --> 01:29:19,792 - I would think so - With a scalpel 1639 01:29:21,125 --> 01:29:23,125 - Is that correct. Now, Doctor - That's correct 1640 01:29:23,250 --> 01:29:24,792 If we add it to the equation 1641 01:29:25,417 --> 01:29:26,959 that you were in the dark 1642 01:29:27,626 --> 01:29:29,792 could you, could you do this in the dark? 1643 01:29:30,584 --> 01:29:32,459 You, Doctor, could you do it in the dark? 1644 01:29:32,584 --> 01:29:33,999 It'd be difficult 1645 01:29:34,542 --> 01:29:36,250 Could you do this in the water? 1646 01:29:37,417 --> 01:29:40,209 You, Doctor, could you do this in the water? 1647 01:29:41,709 --> 01:29:43,292 I think it'd be very difficult to do 1648 01:29:43,626 --> 01:29:46,083 If you were doing it in the dark 1649 01:29:46,417 --> 01:29:50,292 in the water with mosquitoes all around you 1650 01:29:52,042 --> 01:29:54,000 would that make it even much more difficult? 1651 01:29:54,501 --> 01:29:55,918 I would think so 1652 01:29:56,250 --> 01:29:59,417 It would take you, it would be a very tedious task for you 1653 01:30:00,375 --> 01:30:02,751 - It... It would - A skilled pathologist 1654 01:30:04,167 --> 01:30:06,334 Now, isn't true, Doctor 1655 01:30:06,459 --> 01:30:09,626 that people have 5, about 5 pints of blood? 1656 01:30:10,542 --> 01:30:12,000 - A little more than that, yes - Okay 1657 01:30:12,459 --> 01:30:15,792 Um, now, if I poured out 5 pints of blood 1658 01:30:16,375 --> 01:30:19,083 out here on the floor, it'd make a big mess, wouldn't it? 1659 01:30:19,209 --> 01:30:21,167 - Yes - And it would be 1660 01:30:21,501 --> 01:30:23,167 almost impossible to clean up 1661 01:30:24,292 --> 01:30:25,709 Well, you could do it, but... 1662 01:30:26,292 --> 01:30:27,834 - not very easily... - It'd be very difficult, wouldn't it? 1663 01:30:28,459 --> 01:30:30,125 - It's not easy to clean blood - Okay 1664 01:30:30,918 --> 01:30:32,417 Does blood soak into the ground? 1665 01:30:32,667 --> 01:30:34,042 - Um, yes, it does - Okay 1666 01:30:34,167 --> 01:30:35,834 Doctor, with this homicide 1667 01:30:36,417 --> 01:30:37,918 we're talking about here today 1668 01:30:38,751 --> 01:30:42,751 would you agree with me that this could've happened in one of three ways 1669 01:30:43,542 --> 01:30:45,000 These injuries could've happened in the water 1670 01:30:45,834 --> 01:30:47,417 these injuries could've happened on the bank 1671 01:30:47,542 --> 01:30:50,334 there by the side of the ditch, or it could have happened somewhere else 1672 01:30:51,209 --> 01:30:52,959 Would you agree with me those are the 3 possibilities 1673 01:30:53,042 --> 01:30:54,459 - of how this could've happened? - Yes 1674 01:30:54,584 --> 01:30:57,209 Okay, now, with your knowledge of the amount of blood 1675 01:30:57,334 --> 01:30:59,709 that was lost from not only Chris Byers 1676 01:30:59,834 --> 01:31:03,000 but these other boys who've had some pretty they're gonna bleed as well, won't they? 1677 01:31:03,375 --> 01:31:04,959 - Oh, yes - Okay, do you have 1678 01:31:05,042 --> 01:31:08,250 an opinion as to whether you could clean up that amount of blood 1679 01:31:08,999 --> 01:31:11,042 at a scene in the dark 1680 01:31:11,209 --> 01:31:12,667 do you have an opinion as to that? 1681 01:31:13,000 --> 01:31:14,501 I think it'd be quite difficult to do 1682 01:31:14,626 --> 01:31:16,918 to have... um 1683 01:31:17,542 --> 01:31:18,959 injuries of this nature 1684 01:31:20,125 --> 01:31:21,542 without having any blood 1685 01:31:21,667 --> 01:31:24,501 I mean, that's, I, I would question that 1686 01:31:24,626 --> 01:31:26,000 - about the blood - Okay 1687 01:31:26,459 --> 01:31:28,999 Unless it happened in the water or it happened some other place 1688 01:31:29,083 --> 01:31:31,667 Okay. And you, again, Doctor stated that you couldn't 1689 01:31:31,959 --> 01:31:33,751 you couldn't do this in the water 1690 01:31:34,667 --> 01:31:36,751 - Personally, I, I don't think I could - Okay 1691 01:31:38,042 --> 01:31:39,959 I don't get off on hurting people 1692 01:31:40,167 --> 01:31:41,584 or... 1693 01:31:42,292 --> 01:31:44,876 inflicting pain on the rest of the human race 1694 01:31:45,125 --> 01:31:46,542 or just... 1695 01:31:47,042 --> 01:31:49,626 causing destruction for the purpose of destruction 1696 01:31:52,167 --> 01:31:56,167 I've probably been in one or two fights in my entire life 1697 01:31:57,792 --> 01:31:59,167 Um... 1698 01:32:03,999 --> 01:32:06,459 And especially a child 1699 01:32:09,584 --> 01:32:13,083 Because they didn't do anything to deserve what they got 1700 01:32:17,626 --> 01:32:19,000 Um... 1701 01:32:26,876 --> 01:32:28,876 And I believe whatever you do 1702 01:32:29,250 --> 01:32:31,876 to someone else, whether it's good or bad 1703 01:32:32,209 --> 01:32:34,167 it's eventually gonna come back around to you 1704 01:32:37,999 --> 01:32:41,459 Even the person who did this if they're not caught and punished 1705 01:32:41,584 --> 01:32:43,918 then something will happen in their life 1706 01:32:44,000 --> 01:32:46,125 where they will be punished 1707 01:32:49,876 --> 01:32:51,459 "People here kept telling me not to go out with him" 1708 01:32:53,000 --> 01:32:55,167 Something like devil worshipper and stuff and I met him 1709 01:32:55,709 --> 01:32:57,083 in Wal-Mart 1710 01:32:58,999 --> 01:33:02,000 and he followed me around like a puppy dog 1711 01:33:03,375 --> 01:33:06,417 And we just started talking and you know, he was real sweet 1712 01:33:06,709 --> 01:33:08,542 not like everybody else was making him out to be 1713 01:33:09,042 --> 01:33:10,709 and that night we started going out and... 1714 01:33:11,250 --> 01:33:12,751 that was like a month 1715 01:33:13,125 --> 01:33:16,709 he called me up on the telephone at my dad's girlfriend's house 1716 01:33:17,000 --> 01:33:20,167 he goes, will you marry me? I'm like, what? 1717 01:33:21,000 --> 01:33:22,459 And he goes, will you marry me? 1718 01:33:22,959 --> 01:33:24,667 I said, can you repeat that one more time? 1719 01:33:25,667 --> 01:33:28,959 And he goes, will you marry me? And I said, yeah 1720 01:33:30,292 --> 01:33:33,667 When I got pregnant, I had this big picture painted in my mind that 1721 01:33:33,792 --> 01:33:35,209 you know, Damien's gonna be there and 1722 01:33:35,584 --> 01:33:37,501 I get to yell at him when I have the baby 1723 01:33:39,501 --> 01:33:42,250 And instead I was yelling at her 1724 01:33:43,626 --> 01:33:45,042 I miss him so much 1725 01:33:50,709 --> 01:33:53,083 I mean, I don't know if he'll ever see the baby 1726 01:33:53,209 --> 01:33:54,834 they won't let him touch the baby 1727 01:33:58,000 --> 01:33:59,834 It makes me so pissed off 1728 01:34:00,918 --> 01:34:03,000 It's just, I just felt different when he was born 1729 01:34:03,125 --> 01:34:04,542 It was... 1730 01:34:07,667 --> 01:34:09,209 It made me feel like 1731 01:34:10,375 --> 01:34:12,542 I guess just real good inside, just 1732 01:34:14,501 --> 01:34:17,167 to think that I gave life to another human being 1733 01:34:19,209 --> 01:34:22,626 something completely separate from me, but still part of me 1734 01:34:31,667 --> 01:34:33,709 I just hope that I'll be there when he grows up 1735 01:34:34,918 --> 01:34:36,334 to watch him 1736 01:34:36,999 --> 01:34:39,834 You're familiar with a fellow named Aleister Crowley? 1737 01:34:40,209 --> 01:34:42,209 - I know who he is. I know who he is - You've heard of him? Okay 1738 01:34:42,667 --> 01:34:44,042 Uh, and... 1739 01:34:44,584 --> 01:34:46,709 he's the guy who kind of professes, he's 1740 01:34:46,834 --> 01:34:51,542 he's a noted author in the field of Satanic worship, right? 1741 01:34:51,792 --> 01:34:55,250 I've never, I, I know who he is, but I've never saw any of his books, personally 1742 01:34:55,375 --> 01:34:57,501 All right, not really much of a follower of his? 1743 01:34:58,209 --> 01:34:59,626 I would've read him if I saw him 1744 01:34:59,751 --> 01:35:01,542 - but he just never... - Okay 1745 01:35:02,083 --> 01:35:05,417 But Aleister Crowley is a guy that 1746 01:35:05,542 --> 01:35:06,999 based on his writings 1747 01:35:07,459 --> 01:35:09,417 believes in human sacrifice, doesn't he? 1748 01:35:10,083 --> 01:35:12,417 He also believe he was God, though, so 1749 01:35:12,626 --> 01:35:14,125 Okay, and... 1750 01:35:14,792 --> 01:35:17,667 he also had writings that indicated 1751 01:35:18,584 --> 01:35:21,876 that children were the best type of human sacrifice, correct? 1752 01:35:22,250 --> 01:35:23,667 - Yes, sir - Okay 1753 01:35:23,834 --> 01:35:27,375 But, Aleister Crowley doesn't have any particular significance to you? 1754 01:35:29,000 --> 01:35:30,417 I know who he is 1755 01:35:30,542 --> 01:35:33,000 I've read a little bit about him but I've never read anything by him 1756 01:35:34,709 --> 01:35:36,083 Let me show you 1757 01:35:37,626 --> 01:35:40,083 a copy of some documents do you recognize that? 1758 01:35:40,918 --> 01:35:43,083 - Yes - Okay, what is that? 1759 01:35:44,709 --> 01:35:48,209 Um, it, it was this paper I had on 1760 01:35:48,334 --> 01:35:49,751 uh, different alphabets 1761 01:35:50,083 --> 01:35:51,876 for like translations, where you could write things 1762 01:35:52,167 --> 01:35:54,626 that nobody could read and this was one of the forms 1763 01:35:54,751 --> 01:35:56,751 Oh, okay, well, where'd you have that at? 1764 01:35:57,584 --> 01:36:00,459 Where did, when did you do that write those things out? 1765 01:36:01,167 --> 01:36:03,792 - Sometime before I was arrested, I guess - All right 1766 01:36:04,167 --> 01:36:06,918 Are you sure that you hadn't done those since you were arrested 1767 01:36:07,000 --> 01:36:08,417 while you've been staying in jail? 1768 01:36:09,125 --> 01:36:10,584 I don't know, I might have 1769 01:36:10,709 --> 01:36:14,083 So, what, whose names are written on that document? 1770 01:36:15,000 --> 01:36:16,584 Mine, Jason's 1771 01:36:16,751 --> 01:36:20,000 my son's, uh, one that says Aleister Crowley 1772 01:36:20,125 --> 01:36:21,709 - and... - Just wait, wait, who? 1773 01:36:21,834 --> 01:36:23,250 - Aleister Crowley - Yeah 1774 01:36:23,375 --> 01:36:26,334 this is a document that you've written while you've been waiting in jail 1775 01:36:26,459 --> 01:36:28,876 - for trial, right? - If you say so 1776 01:36:29,209 --> 01:36:31,542 Well, you wrote it correct, that's your writing? 1777 01:36:31,667 --> 01:36:33,042 - Mhmm - Okay 1778 01:36:33,626 --> 01:36:35,834 - You recall when you wrote it? - Not really 1779 01:36:36,375 --> 01:36:40,375 What I'm gonna ask you is that this Damien Seth Ezeriah Echols 1780 01:36:40,667 --> 01:36:43,667 your son, he wasn't born until after you were placed in jail, correct? 1781 01:36:44,042 --> 01:36:46,250 - Yes - Okay. So if you've got his name 1782 01:36:46,375 --> 01:36:48,459 listed on this document then this document 1783 01:36:48,584 --> 01:36:50,459 had been generated after he was born, right? 1784 01:36:50,876 --> 01:36:52,417 - Yes - Okay, so this is something 1785 01:36:52,542 --> 01:36:54,709 you've written since you've been sitting in here in jail 1786 01:36:55,584 --> 01:36:57,042 - waiting for trial - Yes 1787 01:36:57,167 --> 01:37:00,167 And what you were doing was writing out various names 1788 01:37:00,292 --> 01:37:02,042 in different type alphabets, correct? 1789 01:37:02,250 --> 01:37:04,918 From the way it looks here I was practicing, trying to memorize them 1790 01:37:05,000 --> 01:37:07,334 Okay, and one of the names that you picked out 1791 01:37:07,459 --> 01:37:10,709 to write about was this fellow named Aleister Crowley, correct? 1792 01:37:10,834 --> 01:37:12,709 - Mhmm - Is that just, just a 1793 01:37:12,834 --> 01:37:15,584 total coincidence you just pulled his name out of the air? 1794 01:37:16,042 --> 01:37:18,584 No, it's just the same book that I had with this 1795 01:37:19,000 --> 01:37:21,626 the different alphabets in it, it also had stuff about him in it 1796 01:37:23,542 --> 01:37:26,125 Well, did you have the book out there at the time you were doing this? 1797 01:37:26,292 --> 01:37:28,125 Mm, this was just from what I remembered myself 1798 01:37:28,250 --> 01:37:30,083 where I was practicing, trying to memorize 1799 01:37:30,626 --> 01:37:32,000 - get it all in my head, or... - So 1800 01:37:32,125 --> 01:37:34,709 so you were going over it and working on it in your head 1801 01:37:35,083 --> 01:37:36,792 and at that point in time 1802 01:37:38,167 --> 01:37:39,834 you write all this down from memory? 1803 01:37:40,792 --> 01:37:42,834 - Mhmm - The people that are listed on here 1804 01:37:42,959 --> 01:37:45,417 - you've got your name here, right? - Mhmm 1805 01:37:45,626 --> 01:37:48,292 And then Jason Baldwin which is your best friend, right? 1806 01:37:48,751 --> 01:37:52,501 And then you've got Damien Seth Ezeriah Echols, that's your son? 1807 01:37:52,626 --> 01:37:54,999 - Yes, it is - Okay, and then the only other name 1808 01:37:55,083 --> 01:37:57,709 on this document besides yourself 1809 01:37:57,834 --> 01:37:59,542 your best friend, and your son 1810 01:37:59,751 --> 01:38:02,167 - is Aleister Crowley, correct? - Yes, sir 1811 01:38:03,542 --> 01:38:06,250 I believe this witness has requested not to be photographed? 1812 01:38:06,375 --> 01:38:07,792 That's correct, your honor 1813 01:38:17,125 --> 01:38:19,459 Would you state your name for the jury? 1814 01:38:20,167 --> 01:38:21,834 - Christine Ann Bickle - Okay 1815 01:38:22,167 --> 01:38:26,167 and, do like you just did and speak up best you can, okay, Christie? 1816 01:38:27,000 --> 01:38:29,959 - Yeah, are you nervous? - Yes 1817 01:38:30,125 --> 01:38:31,667 All right, okay 1818 01:38:31,792 --> 01:38:33,834 did you hear somebody say something 1819 01:38:34,000 --> 01:38:36,000 about the murder of the three little boys? 1820 01:38:36,125 --> 01:38:40,000 Yes, I heard, um, Damien Echols say that he killed the three boys 1821 01:38:40,250 --> 01:38:42,999 Where were you, was he saying that to you or what were you doing? 1822 01:38:43,459 --> 01:38:45,334 I was walking by with my friend 1823 01:38:53,250 --> 01:38:56,709 Christine, I'm Scott Davidson and I've got a couple questions to ask you too, okay? 1824 01:38:56,834 --> 01:38:58,209 - Okay - Okay 1825 01:38:58,375 --> 01:39:00,584 Um, first of all, uh... 1826 01:39:00,834 --> 01:39:03,250 do you remember what day this was that heard this? 1827 01:39:03,834 --> 01:39:05,250 - No, sir - That's the first time 1828 01:39:05,375 --> 01:39:07,417 - you'd ever seen him in your life? - Yes, sir 1829 01:39:07,667 --> 01:39:11,542 What did he say before you say that he said he killed those 3 boys? 1830 01:39:12,083 --> 01:39:14,459 - What'd he say before that? - I don't know 1831 01:39:15,999 --> 01:39:18,626 - What'd he say after that? - I don't know 1832 01:39:19,042 --> 01:39:20,876 And how, how close were you to him? 1833 01:39:21,250 --> 01:39:22,667 I wasn't close 1834 01:39:22,918 --> 01:39:25,042 - Did he scream it? - I don't know 1835 01:39:25,250 --> 01:39:26,999 - Did he yell it? - I don't know 1836 01:39:29,042 --> 01:39:31,584 - Call your next witness - Call Jody Medford 1837 01:39:32,125 --> 01:39:34,999 And again, this witness was requested not to be photographed 1838 01:39:36,292 --> 01:39:39,459 Jody, I want to direct your attention to, uh... 1839 01:39:39,584 --> 01:39:43,459 May of 1993, after the murders of the three little boys 1840 01:39:43,918 --> 01:39:46,751 Uh, did you have occasion to be at the softball field 1841 01:39:46,876 --> 01:39:50,542 and, and hear a comment in regard to the murders? 1842 01:39:50,667 --> 01:39:52,042 - Yes, sir - All right 1843 01:39:52,417 --> 01:39:56,334 Tell the jury, uh, first tell the jury first what you heard 1844 01:39:57,125 --> 01:40:00,292 He said, I killed the little boys and before I turn myself in 1845 01:40:00,417 --> 01:40:02,959 I'm gonna kill to more and I already have one of them picked out 1846 01:40:03,542 --> 01:40:05,918 You didn't recognize anybody else that was with him? 1847 01:40:06,000 --> 01:40:07,959 Um, I saw Jason Baldwin there 1848 01:40:09,250 --> 01:40:11,959 Had you heard people talking about Damien before this? 1849 01:40:12,501 --> 01:40:13,918 Yes, sir 1850 01:40:14,667 --> 01:40:16,042 Did you think... 1851 01:40:17,334 --> 01:40:19,083 did you think he was kind of weird or something? 1852 01:40:19,209 --> 01:40:21,167 Yes, sir, cause he was dressed all in black 1853 01:40:21,292 --> 01:40:23,375 and his hair was jet black and long 1854 01:40:23,501 --> 01:40:25,250 and shaved on the side 1855 01:40:26,417 --> 01:40:28,667 Margaret, two teenage girls took the stand this morning 1856 01:40:28,792 --> 01:40:31,334 and they said they heard Damien Echols confess to the murders 1857 01:40:31,459 --> 01:40:33,667 of three 8 year old boys last May 1858 01:40:33,834 --> 01:40:36,334 one of the girls said she over heard Damien Echols say 1859 01:40:36,459 --> 01:40:39,250 I killed the three boys and I'm going to kill two more 1860 01:40:39,375 --> 01:40:40,918 I already have one picked out 1861 01:40:41,209 --> 01:40:44,042 Later in the afternoon when the defense began presenting its witnesses 1862 01:40:44,167 --> 01:40:45,834 Damien Echols himself took the stand 1863 01:40:46,125 --> 01:40:47,792 He said he thought the girls were lying 1864 01:40:47,999 --> 01:40:49,709 and that they were making up those statements 1865 01:40:49,834 --> 01:40:51,918 He also said he did not practice Satanism 1866 01:40:52,000 --> 01:40:54,834 and denied any involvement in the murders of Chris Byers 1867 01:40:54,959 --> 01:40:56,542 Michael Moore, and Stevie Branch 1868 01:41:05,334 --> 01:41:08,042 Were you working at Bojangles Restaurant 1869 01:41:08,334 --> 01:41:11,626 on the evening of May 5th of 1993? 1870 01:41:11,999 --> 01:41:14,292 - Yes, sir - Could you tell us what happened? 1871 01:41:14,999 --> 01:41:16,667 Well, it was about 9, 30 at night 1872 01:41:17,167 --> 01:41:20,834 uh, I found a black gentleman sitting in the women's restroom on the commode 1873 01:41:21,209 --> 01:41:23,792 and there was blood dripping off of his forearm 1874 01:41:24,876 --> 01:41:26,250 But he had mud on his feet 1875 01:41:27,584 --> 01:41:30,083 and he seemed to be disarrayed when I talked to him 1876 01:41:30,209 --> 01:41:31,667 I called the police then 1877 01:41:31,834 --> 01:41:34,250 - What happened then? - It was a female officer 1878 01:41:34,375 --> 01:41:35,918 for the West Memphis Police Department 1879 01:41:36,000 --> 01:41:38,918 and, uh, she pulled on the light and I saw her coming 1880 01:41:39,000 --> 01:41:41,959 I went up to the front door but she kept coming around 1881 01:41:42,042 --> 01:41:43,501 she went to the drive through window 1882 01:41:43,626 --> 01:41:45,626 So you did not go in the restaurant 1883 01:41:45,918 --> 01:41:47,959 - No, sir, I did not - Did you ever find 1884 01:41:48,042 --> 01:41:50,250 - this bleeding black man? - No, sir, I did not 1885 01:41:50,709 --> 01:41:53,751 Do you have a report that you made regarding this incident? 1886 01:41:53,959 --> 01:41:55,334 No, sir, I did not 1887 01:41:55,918 --> 01:41:58,292 And you're out looking for some boys and you're out in that area 1888 01:41:58,417 --> 01:42:00,042 and you hear about someone bleeding, did that 1889 01:42:00,167 --> 01:42:01,709 did anything go off in your mind thinking that 1890 01:42:02,167 --> 01:42:03,834 - something may be going on? - Okay, first of all 1891 01:42:03,959 --> 01:42:05,876 you gotta understand is the different area I went to 1892 01:42:06,000 --> 01:42:07,501 it was a different ward 1893 01:42:07,751 --> 01:42:09,709 I did not connect the two at all 1894 01:42:09,918 --> 01:42:12,125 Well... it may have been outside your ward 1895 01:42:12,417 --> 01:42:15,375 but distance wise between the area where you were looking 1896 01:42:15,501 --> 01:42:17,834 and where, where this restaurant was it's not a long distance, is it? 1897 01:42:18,459 --> 01:42:20,167 - No, sir, it's really not - Okay 1898 01:42:21,584 --> 01:42:23,792 Did any officer come out there that evening? 1899 01:42:24,292 --> 01:42:25,709 Not that evening 1900 01:42:25,876 --> 01:42:29,751 Uh, were you working on the day of May 6th of 1993? 1901 01:42:29,876 --> 01:42:31,751 Yes, sir. Two detectives came out 1902 01:42:31,876 --> 01:42:34,209 and they took a report as far as what I'd seen 1903 01:42:34,667 --> 01:42:36,667 uh, description of the gentleman 1904 01:42:36,792 --> 01:42:39,250 and then they took blood scrapings off the wall 1905 01:42:39,834 --> 01:42:41,959 All right, detective Ridge what is the date that you sent 1906 01:42:42,042 --> 01:42:44,667 the blood scrapings off to the crime lab to be analyzed? 1907 01:42:44,792 --> 01:42:47,584 - They were never sent - They were never sent? 1908 01:42:47,709 --> 01:42:49,083 That's correct 1909 01:42:49,209 --> 01:42:51,918 All right, where are the, the blood samples at this time? 1910 01:42:52,083 --> 01:42:53,626 I don't know, sir, they're lost 1911 01:42:53,999 --> 01:42:55,542 - They're lost? - Yes, sir, that's my mistake 1912 01:42:55,667 --> 01:42:57,167 I lost a piece of evidence 1913 01:43:08,042 --> 01:43:10,709 Most of the time he came up with the stupid ideas 1914 01:43:13,667 --> 01:43:17,584 I guess I influenced him about as much as he influenced me, I guess 1915 01:43:18,209 --> 01:43:20,959 Most of the time we didn't really set out to so something in particular 1916 01:43:21,042 --> 01:43:23,709 we just started hanging around and whatever happened 1917 01:43:25,292 --> 01:43:26,876 just usually happened 1918 01:43:28,542 --> 01:43:30,125 Sometimes good, sometimes bad 1919 01:43:31,626 --> 01:43:34,375 We were just sitting on the couch watching TV the night we were arrested 1920 01:43:39,334 --> 01:43:42,459 And pigs busted in, started running all over the house 1921 01:43:42,876 --> 01:43:45,167 We tried to hide in the bedroom when the cops first came 1922 01:43:45,292 --> 01:43:46,709 but they wouldn't leave 1923 01:43:46,834 --> 01:43:48,626 We ran in the bedroom, turned the light off 1924 01:43:49,584 --> 01:43:52,250 - maybe they'll go away - I know 1925 01:43:54,375 --> 01:43:55,999 We saw the lights go out 1926 01:43:57,834 --> 01:44:00,999 - And Domini turned them back on. Oh - No, it was my sister 1927 01:44:19,125 --> 01:44:21,125 "Well, the interesting thing about it is, is that, the" 1928 01:44:21,250 --> 01:44:23,542 the, the one knife that we know somebody owns 1929 01:44:25,000 --> 01:44:27,292 is the Byers knife, we know he owns that knife 1930 01:44:27,417 --> 01:44:30,959 He's got the motive his son who he's upset with 1931 01:44:31,250 --> 01:44:33,292 his son was the only one mutilated 1932 01:44:33,417 --> 01:44:34,834 the other two weren't mutilated 1933 01:44:35,459 --> 01:44:38,334 He's, he's, he's got knowledge about the area 1934 01:44:38,918 --> 01:44:40,834 he knows when the search is over with 1935 01:44:41,959 --> 01:44:45,042 He's big enough that he can carry the boys there and throw them in 1936 01:44:45,792 --> 01:44:47,167 - He's a jeweler - A jeweler 1937 01:44:47,292 --> 01:44:51,209 he's precise enough to have, to have committed that mutilation 1938 01:44:52,042 --> 01:44:54,334 All of the pieces fit together 1939 01:44:54,626 --> 01:44:57,375 with somebody in a different location 1940 01:44:58,125 --> 01:45:00,125 killing the boys in a different location 1941 01:45:00,709 --> 01:45:02,626 Because there's no mosquito bites on them 1942 01:45:03,125 --> 01:45:05,709 So we know that after the boys were killed 1943 01:45:05,834 --> 01:45:08,417 and during, they weren't outside 1944 01:45:08,999 --> 01:45:11,626 They had to be inside cause there's no mosquito bites on them 1945 01:45:11,999 --> 01:45:15,459 So that means they were carried from a death scene some place 1946 01:45:15,584 --> 01:45:18,292 unconscious and brought down to the river 1947 01:45:18,417 --> 01:45:21,334 and they had to be killed shortly before they brought down there 1948 01:45:21,584 --> 01:45:23,792 because they all died within a short period of time 1949 01:45:24,459 --> 01:45:27,542 So after they were bled to death after they were bludgeoned 1950 01:45:28,000 --> 01:45:31,250 and unconscious, somebody had to take those three 1951 01:45:31,459 --> 01:45:33,167 take them to the scene and dump them 1952 01:45:33,918 --> 01:45:36,918 In order to do that, you gotta be physically strong enough 1953 01:45:37,000 --> 01:45:40,626 to carry a 50 to 60 year old unconscious kid 1954 01:45:41,959 --> 01:45:43,334 who's hogtied 1955 01:45:43,918 --> 01:45:45,626 Ja, Jason couldn't have done it 1956 01:45:46,250 --> 01:45:49,000 in his best day, he couldn't carry a little baby 1957 01:45:49,167 --> 01:45:50,584 with those little skinny arms of his 1958 01:45:50,876 --> 01:45:52,417 so when we look at this whole thing 1959 01:45:53,167 --> 01:45:55,834 all the pieces that they tried to put together 1960 01:45:56,292 --> 01:45:58,667 none of it fits with Jason 1961 01:45:59,542 --> 01:46:03,667 and just about all of it fits towards a person like Byers 1962 01:46:03,834 --> 01:46:05,209 When did you receive that knife? 1963 01:46:05,334 --> 01:46:07,000 On the... 1964 01:46:07,709 --> 01:46:09,918 I believe it was on the 8th, I've gone Jan... 1965 01:46:10,459 --> 01:46:13,375 it's hard to make this out, January 8th, 1994 1966 01:46:14,083 --> 01:46:18,125 All right, and, who did you receive this knife from? 1967 01:46:18,626 --> 01:46:20,375 I received it from, uh... 1968 01:46:23,667 --> 01:46:25,667 - you mean how did I actually receive it? - No, who did you 1969 01:46:25,792 --> 01:46:27,167 receive the knife from? 1970 01:46:27,292 --> 01:46:28,959 I received it from, uh... 1971 01:46:30,375 --> 01:46:33,501 Joe and, uh, the people with HBO 1972 01:46:33,626 --> 01:46:35,000 - Okay - Productions 1973 01:46:35,459 --> 01:46:37,709 - Okay, Bruce and the other one - Bruce and Joe 1974 01:46:37,834 --> 01:46:39,834 - wherever he is. All right - Yes 1975 01:46:39,959 --> 01:46:42,751 Upon receiving that knife what did you do with it? 1976 01:46:42,876 --> 01:46:46,751 I saw what I thought to be some type of substance on the knife 1977 01:46:47,209 --> 01:46:48,959 and, actually, I did know what it was 1978 01:46:49,250 --> 01:46:52,876 I in turn sent this knife to Genetic Design 1979 01:46:53,167 --> 01:46:56,042 When the knife was received by your firm 1980 01:46:56,167 --> 01:46:59,999 did you or your lab run tests on that particular knife? 1981 01:47:00,459 --> 01:47:04,459 There was a small amount of what appeared to be blood 1982 01:47:04,584 --> 01:47:06,501 um, that was dried or tissue 1983 01:47:06,792 --> 01:47:10,209 in a, a crevice on the knife where the knife bolts when it locks 1984 01:47:10,709 --> 01:47:12,999 The results of the test showed us that, um 1985 01:47:13,083 --> 01:47:16,167 there was DNA, um, present on the knife 1986 01:47:16,292 --> 01:47:19,125 and that we were able to get a type, uh 1987 01:47:19,250 --> 01:47:22,459 using a test called HLA BQ Alpha 1988 01:47:22,751 --> 01:47:27,918 and Mr. Byers had the same type that was detected form the specimen from the knife 1989 01:47:28,167 --> 01:47:33,083 Okay, and what was the BQ Alpha type for Christopher Byers? 1990 01:47:33,501 --> 01:47:34,959 It was also the same type 1991 01:47:35,042 --> 01:47:37,042 So, the blood on the knife 1992 01:47:37,709 --> 01:47:39,083 and... 1993 01:47:39,667 --> 01:47:41,292 Christopher Byers' blood 1994 01:47:41,667 --> 01:47:44,459 and John Mark Byers' blood all had the same type 1995 01:47:44,584 --> 01:47:45,999 Correct 1996 01:47:59,501 --> 01:48:01,375 - Judge, if I could approach the witness - All right 1997 01:48:03,751 --> 01:48:05,459 Take a look at, at that knife, Doctor 1998 01:48:11,459 --> 01:48:13,834 And I'm gonna call that for identification purposes 1999 01:48:14,209 --> 01:48:16,375 The John Mark Byers knife 2000 01:48:17,751 --> 01:48:21,167 Doctor, did you make the comparison with this knife 2001 01:48:21,292 --> 01:48:24,626 E-6 and, and compared that with some of the wounds 2002 01:48:24,751 --> 01:48:27,125 - that you found on Chris Byers? - Yes, I did 2003 01:48:27,375 --> 01:48:30,542 All right, does that knife appear to be a serrated knife? 2004 01:48:30,876 --> 01:48:32,334 Yes, this is a serrated knife 2005 01:48:32,626 --> 01:48:34,584 Do you have an opinion if some of the wounds 2006 01:48:34,709 --> 01:48:37,584 that you found on Chris Byers were consistent 2007 01:48:37,709 --> 01:48:39,501 with wounds which would have been caused 2008 01:48:39,626 --> 01:48:41,250 by that type of serrated knife? 2009 01:48:41,709 --> 01:48:44,501 Well, some of the wounds that have the smaller serrated, um, patterns 2010 01:48:45,125 --> 01:48:47,667 um, could have been, um 2011 01:48:48,000 --> 01:48:51,292 inflected with a knife having this type of, um, serration 2012 01:48:52,459 --> 01:48:56,000 How do you think this has gone over so far on the Mark Byers aspect? 2013 01:48:56,626 --> 01:48:59,417 Obviously we thought long and hard about mentioning 2014 01:49:00,459 --> 01:49:02,083 a father as a possible suspect 2015 01:49:02,876 --> 01:49:05,834 I hate having to do that, but the way the circumstances are 2016 01:49:06,542 --> 01:49:09,876 it's just coming out whether we really want it to or not 2017 01:49:09,999 --> 01:49:13,876 I mean, you know, we had suspicion even before the knife showed up 2018 01:49:14,250 --> 01:49:18,083 Do you think anybody realizes the reason for the 3 day delay 2019 01:49:18,209 --> 01:49:20,751 in Jessie's trial was waiting on that 2020 01:49:22,125 --> 01:49:24,250 the DNA test to come back on that Byers knife? 2021 01:49:24,501 --> 01:49:27,250 I doubt it, and even after the results came back 2022 01:49:27,542 --> 01:49:29,459 and it showed that it could be Mark's blood 2023 01:49:29,584 --> 01:49:30,999 as well as Chris's blood 2024 01:49:31,584 --> 01:49:33,000 that doesn't alleviate 2025 01:49:33,209 --> 01:49:36,876 the fact that he said no one had ever cut themself on the knife 2026 01:49:38,959 --> 01:49:40,584 And it shouldn't have blood on it at all 2027 01:49:40,918 --> 01:49:43,918 Well, do you think the theory or the argument at least that 2028 01:49:44,959 --> 01:49:47,000 it wasn't that the blood was found on the blade 2029 01:49:47,125 --> 01:49:49,709 which could be easily wiped off but it was back in the hinges 2030 01:49:49,834 --> 01:49:51,209 that you normally wouldn't think 2031 01:49:51,876 --> 01:49:54,417 if you were wiping off the blood you wouldn't think the blood would be 2032 01:49:54,667 --> 01:49:56,918 inside the hinges and that's where they found that particular blood 2033 01:49:57,375 --> 01:49:59,000 - How do we get that in? Just ask - Well 2034 01:49:59,125 --> 01:50:00,542 Gitchell? 2035 01:50:00,792 --> 01:50:03,125 Ask Byers, I mean, we could put Byers up on the stand 2036 01:50:03,250 --> 01:50:05,083 I think the jury expects to see him now 2037 01:50:05,209 --> 01:50:07,709 Oh, they wanna see him up there they wanna see what he has to say 2038 01:50:07,834 --> 01:50:09,542 - don't you think so? - I think so, yes 2039 01:50:10,209 --> 01:50:11,999 Mr. Byers, I need to ask you about 2040 01:50:12,751 --> 01:50:14,626 the defense exhibit number E-6 2041 01:50:14,751 --> 01:50:19,292 this particular folding lock blade Kershaw knife, if I could 2042 01:50:19,417 --> 01:50:22,000 - approach the witness, your honor - Yes 2043 01:50:23,083 --> 01:50:24,501 Take a look at that knife, please 2044 01:50:33,667 --> 01:50:35,709 Had that knife ever been used before? 2045 01:50:37,417 --> 01:50:38,876 Used for what? 2046 01:50:39,334 --> 01:50:40,751 Used for any purpose 2047 01:50:41,959 --> 01:50:45,375 I've had trimmed toenails with it 2048 01:50:45,501 --> 01:50:47,834 I had, uh, attempted to 2049 01:50:48,334 --> 01:50:51,000 trim on some venison that I had 2050 01:50:52,125 --> 01:50:53,542 - I... - You attempted to 2051 01:50:53,834 --> 01:50:55,709 trim on some venison when was it you attempted 2052 01:50:55,834 --> 01:50:57,209 to trim on some venison? 2053 01:50:57,709 --> 01:51:00,501 Somewhere time around the Thanksgiving holidays 2054 01:51:00,792 --> 01:51:02,834 Do you recall being asked on January 26th 2055 01:51:02,959 --> 01:51:04,334 this is on page 3 2056 01:51:05,000 --> 01:51:06,417 By inspector Gitchell 2057 01:51:06,626 --> 01:51:10,042 "Had you ever taken that knife hunting or used it recently?" 2058 01:51:10,417 --> 01:51:12,751 Do you remember being asked that question by Inspector Gitchell? 2059 01:51:13,292 --> 01:51:16,000 Specifically, no, sir. He asked me a lot of questions 2060 01:51:16,125 --> 01:51:18,167 All right, do you remember giving the answer 2061 01:51:18,584 --> 01:51:21,959 "No, that knife had not been used at all" 2062 01:51:22,459 --> 01:51:24,000 "It had just been kept up" 2063 01:51:24,417 --> 01:51:26,959 "put in my dresser and I didn't use it" 2064 01:51:27,209 --> 01:51:30,083 "and the reason why was because if the serrated edges" 2065 01:51:30,584 --> 01:51:34,417 Do you recall giving that answer to, uh Inspector Gitchell on the 26th? 2066 01:51:35,876 --> 01:51:39,375 No, sir, I don't recall giving him that exact answer 2067 01:51:39,501 --> 01:51:41,876 I'm sure his question wouldn't have been asked 2068 01:51:41,999 --> 01:51:43,375 - exactly like your question was - All right 2069 01:51:43,501 --> 01:51:44,918 did Gitchell tell you 2070 01:51:45,584 --> 01:51:47,459 "Let me explain a problem we had" 2071 01:51:47,709 --> 01:51:49,375 "and you need to answer this for me" 2072 01:51:49,626 --> 01:51:51,250 "we have found blood on this knife" 2073 01:51:51,792 --> 01:51:53,334 Did Gitchell ask you that question? 2074 01:51:53,667 --> 01:51:56,125 I don't remember if he said there was or not 2075 01:51:56,334 --> 01:51:58,042 Did you tell Gitchell you had no idea 2076 01:51:58,167 --> 01:51:59,959 how Chris's blood could be on that knife? 2077 01:52:00,083 --> 01:52:02,083 Yes, sir. I would not have any idea 2078 01:52:02,292 --> 01:52:05,918 If his blood was on that knife, I would not know how it got there 2079 01:52:06,501 --> 01:52:10,125 Did you have any idea how human blood was on that knife? 2080 01:52:10,584 --> 01:52:13,083 Well, yes, I would have an idea, I cut my thumb 2081 01:52:13,999 --> 01:52:15,375 All right 2082 01:52:15,501 --> 01:52:19,083 Is it true that you never told Inspector Gitchell on January 26th 2083 01:52:19,417 --> 01:52:22,584 that you ever cut your thumb with that particular knife, did you? 2084 01:52:23,000 --> 01:52:26,334 Yes, sir. Seems like during the course of the day, I did tell him that 2085 01:52:26,459 --> 01:52:29,042 Okay, was that during the taped conversation or was that after? 2086 01:52:30,209 --> 01:52:31,709 - I don't remember - Okay 2087 01:52:32,042 --> 01:52:33,626 On the top of page 8 2088 01:52:34,000 --> 01:52:35,792 you recall being asked the question 2089 01:52:36,167 --> 01:52:38,584 "I have no idea, no idea" 2090 01:52:38,709 --> 01:52:41,250 "how it could have any human blood on it" 2091 01:52:42,125 --> 01:52:44,083 - You recall giving that answer? - Yes, sir 2092 01:52:44,250 --> 01:52:45,834 Then do you recall stating 2093 01:52:45,959 --> 01:52:48,375 "I don't even remember nicking myself with it" 2094 01:52:48,709 --> 01:52:50,375 "cutting the dinner meat or anything" 2095 01:52:50,876 --> 01:52:52,709 - Is that the answer you gave? - Yes, sir 2096 01:52:52,834 --> 01:52:54,834 - And is that the truth? - Uh... 2097 01:52:54,959 --> 01:52:56,876 at the time when he was questioning me 2098 01:52:57,792 --> 01:53:00,292 I didn't re, I mean, I might not have remembered 2099 01:53:00,417 --> 01:53:03,709 we were getting ready to go into trial, uh... 2100 01:53:05,083 --> 01:53:06,999 Did you remember on this date 2101 01:53:07,209 --> 01:53:10,751 cutting yourself with the venison or not cutting yourself? 2102 01:53:10,876 --> 01:53:13,209 - The date that Gary questioned? - The day that Gary questioned 2103 01:53:13,334 --> 01:53:15,292 - Yes, sir - I might not have remembered it 2104 01:53:15,417 --> 01:53:17,334 at that time when he was questioning me 2105 01:53:17,459 --> 01:53:19,417 but I could've remembered it later on 2106 01:53:19,542 --> 01:53:21,334 in the day and talked to him about it 2107 01:53:21,542 --> 01:53:22,959 Okay 2108 01:53:23,542 --> 01:53:26,999 Earlier that afternoon, had you given Chris a whipping? 2109 01:53:28,000 --> 01:53:30,083 Approximately around 5, 30 2110 01:53:30,459 --> 01:53:33,083 This was about 5, 30 and was, was this with a belt? 2111 01:53:33,375 --> 01:53:34,918 - Yes, sir - Okay, and approximately 2112 01:53:35,000 --> 01:53:36,834 how many times did you hit him with the belt? 2113 01:53:37,250 --> 01:53:39,083 I spanked him 2 or 3 times 2114 01:53:40,375 --> 01:53:42,083 And on what part of body did you spank him? 2115 01:53:42,667 --> 01:53:44,751 It would've been just on his behind 2116 01:53:44,876 --> 01:53:46,334 Okay, was his, uh... 2117 01:53:46,459 --> 01:53:48,459 was he wearing his pants or did he have to pull his pants down? 2118 01:53:48,667 --> 01:53:50,417 - No, he had on blue jeans - Okay 2119 01:53:55,042 --> 01:53:56,999 The judge back there during the last recess 2120 01:53:57,083 --> 01:54:00,709 before you were recalled, says that you have a brain tumor 2121 01:54:00,834 --> 01:54:04,542 you're being treated, do you wanna talk about that? Is it true? 2122 01:54:05,042 --> 01:54:08,667 - It's been rumored, it's... - Yes, I have a brain tumor 2123 01:54:09,167 --> 01:54:11,999 - And you're being treated for it? - Yes, I'm being treated for it 2124 01:54:14,167 --> 01:54:15,751 I need to ask you one question and 2125 01:54:15,999 --> 01:54:17,375 and I hope you won't get angry 2126 01:54:17,542 --> 01:54:20,626 but has this, this even the suggestion 2127 01:54:21,125 --> 01:54:23,709 that you may have had something to do with the murders 2128 01:54:23,834 --> 01:54:26,000 of these boys caused any problems 2129 01:54:26,125 --> 01:54:28,292 uh, within your, your family 2130 01:54:28,667 --> 01:54:31,375 or with any of the other uh, victims' families? 2131 01:54:31,626 --> 01:54:33,125 - No - they all 2132 01:54:34,209 --> 01:54:36,000 they all know the truth, and no 2133 01:54:39,584 --> 01:54:41,292 Did you have anything to do with these boys' deaths? 2134 01:54:41,751 --> 01:54:43,125 No more than you did 2135 01:54:44,292 --> 01:54:47,000 Fogelman says you're buying a new house is that why you're leaving West Memphis? 2136 01:54:47,584 --> 01:54:49,459 - I didn't say that - Fogelman did this morning 2137 01:54:49,584 --> 01:54:51,125 Yeah, he said that's why you were late 2138 01:54:51,501 --> 01:54:53,834 - Yeah, we might try to move - Out of West Memphis? 2139 01:54:55,083 --> 01:55:00,209 Well, somewhere, I mean, you would probably wanna move, you know 2140 01:55:00,542 --> 01:55:01,959 Could you say where you're gonna move? Do you wanna say... 2141 01:55:02,083 --> 01:55:03,751 - No - Let me ask you a question 2142 01:55:03,876 --> 01:55:05,959 Mr. Sullivan, would you wanna live in a house 2143 01:55:06,292 --> 01:55:08,999 that your baby died less than three fourths of a mile from it? 2144 01:55:09,083 --> 01:55:10,709 - I wouldn't, no - No, okay 2145 01:55:10,834 --> 01:55:12,542 That answers the question, come on 2146 01:55:13,292 --> 01:55:14,834 You're talking about your whole family, though, right? 2147 01:55:14,959 --> 01:55:16,834 - you're not just talking about you - You wouldn't move 2148 01:55:16,959 --> 01:55:18,876 and leave your wife and children somewhere, would you? 2149 01:55:19,667 --> 01:55:21,209 Not if we were gonna stay together, no 2150 01:55:21,334 --> 01:55:22,751 Okay 2151 01:55:24,501 --> 01:55:26,876 I mean, some of the questions you ask are kind of ridiculous 2152 01:55:26,999 --> 01:55:28,792 you know, I know you might ask them yourself 2153 01:55:28,918 --> 01:55:32,083 they're kind of odd or strange or different 2154 01:55:32,209 --> 01:55:34,042 or however you'd like to comment on them 2155 01:55:34,167 --> 01:55:37,250 but some of them it seems like you just use a little common sense 2156 01:55:37,375 --> 01:55:39,834 and think about what you would do or how you would feel 2157 01:55:39,959 --> 01:55:42,542 some of the questions you fellows would maybe have to ask 2158 01:55:42,834 --> 01:55:44,459 - Well, the only thing is, we have - We have to ask them 2159 01:55:44,584 --> 01:55:45,999 to ask them because we can't quote ourselves 2160 01:55:46,375 --> 01:55:48,042 - We have to... - I know, but then a lot of times 2161 01:55:48,167 --> 01:55:51,083 things are printed in the paper that people did not say 2162 01:55:51,667 --> 01:55:53,042 and the news media 2163 01:55:53,167 --> 01:55:55,083 I'm not saying which individual 2164 01:55:55,417 --> 01:55:57,626 says they got a confidential informer 2165 01:55:57,876 --> 01:55:59,792 you don't have a confidential informer 2166 01:55:59,918 --> 01:56:02,417 over, your confidential informer is your imagination 2167 01:56:03,125 --> 01:56:04,584 - Well... - You know, there's a lot of thing that's 2168 01:56:04,709 --> 01:56:07,334 printed in the paper that people did not say 2169 01:56:08,584 --> 01:56:12,125 But the media has the rights to print what they wanna print 2170 01:56:13,250 --> 01:56:15,250 You know, victims don't have any rights 2171 01:56:30,125 --> 01:56:31,542 Now that I've heard him talk 2172 01:56:32,876 --> 01:56:36,125 I don't, I kind of had an idea what he was like 2173 01:56:36,334 --> 01:56:38,501 when he talked, but after he talked 2174 01:56:38,626 --> 01:56:40,167 he wasn't anything like I thought he'd be 2175 01:56:41,584 --> 01:56:42,999 How is he? 2176 01:56:44,292 --> 01:56:46,584 I see him now as more like a human being 2177 01:56:46,709 --> 01:56:50,042 than I did before. Now I see him as kind of a new personality 2178 01:56:52,167 --> 01:56:53,751 Uh, from a defense side point 2179 01:56:53,876 --> 01:56:55,334 I've never been a defense attorney, but... 2180 01:56:56,334 --> 01:56:57,918 to put him on the witness stand 2181 01:56:58,542 --> 01:57:00,250 sure seemed to be an awful big gamble 2182 01:57:00,501 --> 01:57:02,834 and I can't understand the mindset that puts you in the position 2183 01:57:02,959 --> 01:57:04,334 where you're willing to take that gamble 2184 01:57:06,125 --> 01:57:07,918 Especially when you follow it up 2185 01:57:08,334 --> 01:57:11,751 with the Mr. Bojangles accusations 2186 01:57:12,125 --> 01:57:13,626 it didn't make any sense 2187 01:57:14,334 --> 01:57:16,584 Cause it, to me, if I were on the jury 2188 01:57:16,709 --> 01:57:18,876 it would look like just some something desperate 2189 01:57:19,292 --> 01:57:22,459 You know, they're gonna cast blame on anybody and everybody they can 2190 01:57:24,792 --> 01:57:28,250 Which, and the defense didn't have the guts to actually ask him did he do it 2191 01:57:40,542 --> 01:57:43,959 The song that I wrote can relate to Metallica 2192 01:57:44,042 --> 01:57:45,501 The Sanitarium 2193 01:57:48,542 --> 01:57:51,626 Cause I feel like all those times I was in the hospital I didn't need it 2194 01:57:52,501 --> 01:57:53,918 It... 2195 01:57:54,459 --> 01:57:57,459 It was just the police, another way for them setting me up 2196 01:57:57,667 --> 01:57:59,209 when they couldn't send me to prison or something 2197 01:57:59,334 --> 01:58:01,042 like, well, we'll get him out of our way for a little while, but 2198 01:58:03,042 --> 01:58:04,709 Sending him somewhere else 2199 01:58:10,167 --> 01:58:11,584 I like Metallica because... 2200 01:58:12,042 --> 01:58:13,459 well, all... 2201 01:58:14,000 --> 01:58:15,751 hard music like that because 2202 01:58:17,542 --> 01:58:19,918 it like gives me an adrenaline rush 2203 01:58:20,375 --> 01:58:21,792 and... 2204 01:58:23,000 --> 01:58:24,584 makes me feel more alive 2205 01:59:30,999 --> 01:59:32,459 Now, during the course of... 2206 01:59:32,918 --> 01:59:36,083 uh, talking to Mr. Echols 2207 01:59:36,209 --> 01:59:37,626 did you ask him 2208 01:59:37,959 --> 01:59:40,083 who did he think did it and why? 2209 01:59:40,501 --> 01:59:42,459 In one area he says 2210 01:59:43,083 --> 01:59:47,167 he had an opinion for who could've done the murders as being someone sick 2211 01:59:47,292 --> 01:59:49,542 and that it was some type of thrill-kill 2212 01:59:49,667 --> 01:59:53,000 he also stated that the penis was a symbol of power in his religion 2213 01:59:53,125 --> 01:59:55,501 known as Wicca. He also stated that 2214 01:59:55,626 --> 01:59:57,834 the number 3 is a sacred number in the belief 2215 01:59:58,292 --> 02:00:01,584 And did he tell you anything about demonic forces? 2216 02:00:01,959 --> 02:00:05,042 Yes, sir, he said that all people have a demonic force in them 2217 02:00:05,459 --> 02:00:09,167 and that, uh, person would have no control over that demonic force 2218 02:00:10,459 --> 02:00:13,626 Mr. Echols is not the only person that told you that the children 2219 02:00:13,751 --> 02:00:15,250 kids probably died of mutilation, was he? 2220 02:00:15,375 --> 02:00:16,792 No, sir 2221 02:00:18,209 --> 02:00:20,999 And, Mr. Echols, you asked him 2222 02:00:21,459 --> 02:00:23,959 uh, something to the effect of what types of books did he enjoy reading? 2223 02:00:24,501 --> 02:00:26,000 - Yes, sir - Okay, and... 2224 02:00:26,209 --> 02:00:28,167 um... and he told you 2225 02:00:28,709 --> 02:00:31,834 I think, is it Anton Levy and Stephen King? 2226 02:00:33,083 --> 02:00:34,501 - Yes, sir - Okay 2227 02:00:34,834 --> 02:00:37,876 Now, in your opinion, is there anything unusual about 2228 02:00:37,999 --> 02:00:40,042 those being the type of books that Mr. Echols likes to read? 2229 02:00:42,501 --> 02:00:48,083 Anton LeVey is a book of Satanic rules and involvement 2230 02:00:48,709 --> 02:00:50,334 Uh, Stephen King 2231 02:00:50,834 --> 02:00:52,751 seems to be horror movies 2232 02:00:52,999 --> 02:00:54,709 uh, horror books 2233 02:00:55,209 --> 02:00:59,000 and if you're asking if I felt that was strange, yes, sir, I did 2234 02:00:59,125 --> 02:01:00,542 All right 2235 02:01:01,042 --> 02:01:04,334 Now, let me refer you back to your statement 2236 02:01:04,459 --> 02:01:06,083 that you gave Officer Ridge 2237 02:01:07,918 --> 02:01:09,375 Did you tell him in that statement 2238 02:01:09,501 --> 02:01:12,959 that you had been a member of a white witch group for 5 years? 2239 02:01:13,584 --> 02:01:15,042 - No - Okay 2240 02:01:15,167 --> 02:01:16,959 I've never been a member of any group 2241 02:01:17,709 --> 02:01:20,876 And so if he put that in his report you're saying that's inaccurate 2242 02:01:21,083 --> 02:01:22,584 - Yes, I am - He made that up 2243 02:01:23,250 --> 02:01:24,667 Yes, I am 2244 02:01:24,876 --> 02:01:26,459 On question number 9 2245 02:01:26,792 --> 02:01:29,000 how do you think it would, the person feels 2246 02:01:29,125 --> 02:01:31,834 that did this? The answer was 2247 02:01:31,959 --> 02:01:34,999 "Probably makes them feel good gives them power" 2248 02:01:35,125 --> 02:01:37,167 Now, I guess Officer Ridge said that, too 2249 02:01:37,501 --> 02:01:39,167 No, I used common sense on that 2250 02:01:39,292 --> 02:01:40,959 - Okay - If someone was doing it 2251 02:01:41,042 --> 02:01:42,459 then they must've wanted to 2252 02:01:42,709 --> 02:01:44,250 and if they were doing something they wanted to 2253 02:01:44,375 --> 02:01:46,501 it must've made them happy I don't think they were doing it 2254 02:01:46,626 --> 02:01:49,209 because someone forced them to or because they didn't want to 2255 02:01:49,709 --> 02:01:51,501 Okay, so, in your mind 2256 02:01:52,999 --> 02:01:55,792 the person that killed these three kids 2257 02:01:56,626 --> 02:02:00,459 it's common sense that killing three 8 year olds would make you feel good? 2258 02:02:00,709 --> 02:02:02,209 Whoever did it, it must have 2259 02:02:02,459 --> 02:02:04,542 Okay, did you also tell him 2260 02:02:04,876 --> 02:02:07,459 that each person had a demonic side to him? 2261 02:02:08,000 --> 02:02:10,459 I believe every person has a good side and a bad side 2262 02:02:10,584 --> 02:02:12,292 - Yes - Well, did you, were those your words 2263 02:02:12,417 --> 02:02:14,250 when you referred, when he's got written down here 2264 02:02:14,375 --> 02:02:18,250 he stated that there was no control of the demonic portion of people? 2265 02:02:18,959 --> 02:02:21,083 He asked me did I think there were some people that, that 2266 02:02:21,209 --> 02:02:24,584 that could not control that side I said, yes, I guess there is 2267 02:02:25,250 --> 02:02:29,918 It also states that Damien stated that the younger the victim was made more innocent 2268 02:02:30,167 --> 02:02:33,292 and in turn more power would be given the person doing the killing 2269 02:02:33,834 --> 02:02:35,459 - Right - Okay, did you say that? 2270 02:02:35,584 --> 02:02:37,334 - Yes - Okay, those are your words 2271 02:02:37,459 --> 02:02:39,125 - Mhmm - Did you pick that up 2272 02:02:39,250 --> 02:02:40,709 when you were studying to be a Catholic? 2273 02:02:40,959 --> 02:02:43,999 No, I saw that on several movies, books 2274 02:02:45,209 --> 02:02:47,250 Question number 11, when he asked you 2275 02:02:47,375 --> 02:02:48,959 "How do you think they died?" 2276 02:02:50,125 --> 02:02:53,667 and it, the answer is mutilation, cut up all three 2277 02:02:54,250 --> 02:02:56,000 "heard they were in the water drowning" 2278 02:02:56,876 --> 02:02:58,709 "Cut up one more than the others" 2279 02:03:00,751 --> 02:03:05,167 Is that again what Officer Ridge said and you just agreed? 2280 02:03:05,501 --> 02:03:07,501 No, I had saw that on TV 2281 02:03:07,626 --> 02:03:09,375 newspapers, people talking 2282 02:03:11,042 --> 02:03:12,459 And... 2283 02:03:15,334 --> 02:03:17,209 you knew about the drowning 2284 02:03:17,959 --> 02:03:19,334 - Correct? - I knew they were in the water, I 2285 02:03:19,459 --> 02:03:21,125 - didn't know that they drowned - You knew that one was 2286 02:03:21,250 --> 02:03:23,834 - cut up more than the others - He asked me was it possible 2287 02:03:23,959 --> 02:03:26,000 he said, do you think one was hurt worse than the others 2288 02:03:26,125 --> 02:03:27,876 - I said, yeah I guess - Oh, so again 2289 02:03:27,999 --> 02:03:30,584 that particular area's one of those things where Officer Ridge 2290 02:03:30,709 --> 02:03:32,751 told you and that wasn't your response 2291 02:03:33,000 --> 02:03:35,375 you just responded about the drowning and mutilation 2292 02:03:35,751 --> 02:03:37,751 If he didn't get the answer he liked he would go back 2293 02:03:37,876 --> 02:03:40,083 - and try to get me say something else - And it's your testimony 2294 02:03:40,209 --> 02:03:42,375 specifically that you weren't the one who said 2295 02:03:42,501 --> 02:03:44,042 one was cut up more than the other 2296 02:03:44,334 --> 02:03:46,000 - No, I didn't - It was Officer Ridge who said that 2297 02:03:46,125 --> 02:03:47,792 I agreed with him when he said that 2298 02:03:47,918 --> 02:03:50,834 Okay. And if he says something different that's be 2299 02:03:50,959 --> 02:03:52,542 he'd, he'd be lying about it, right? 2300 02:03:52,667 --> 02:03:55,125 - you're the one telling the truth - I wouldn't put it past him 2301 02:04:00,209 --> 02:04:01,999 Damien, we're getting close to the end now 2302 02:04:02,626 --> 02:04:04,042 How do you feel so far? 2303 02:04:05,626 --> 02:04:07,417 I feel good, so far, so far 2304 02:04:08,292 --> 02:04:10,083 to me, it looks like we've got it beat 2305 02:04:10,584 --> 02:04:14,000 What do you think the worst thing for us right now has been? 2306 02:04:15,292 --> 02:04:17,918 The three weeks we've been over here what has hurt you the most? 2307 02:04:19,083 --> 02:04:21,250 I only know of two things that have really hurt 2308 02:04:21,375 --> 02:04:23,000 that one kid getting up there with Jason 2309 02:04:23,125 --> 02:04:25,709 - Yeah - and, um... those girls 2310 02:04:26,834 --> 02:04:30,667 The Thursday's newspaper which addressed you testifying on Wednesday 2311 02:04:31,000 --> 02:04:33,542 was real good. I talked about that you did well 2312 02:04:34,083 --> 02:04:37,042 but Friday's regarding your Thursday testimony wasn't as good 2313 02:04:37,584 --> 02:04:39,459 - What do you think? - I think I did real good 2314 02:04:39,584 --> 02:04:41,000 on the first day and the second day 2315 02:04:41,125 --> 02:04:44,667 it didn't look as good because Davis kept trying to trip me or something 2316 02:04:45,459 --> 02:04:47,751 There was one point in there though, where he asked you 2317 02:04:48,250 --> 02:04:51,292 he says it looks like you're just changing your story 2318 02:04:52,250 --> 02:04:54,417 to fit whatever comes up 2319 02:04:54,542 --> 02:04:55,959 and you said, yeah 2320 02:04:56,959 --> 02:04:58,709 I was just like halfway listening to him 2321 02:04:59,709 --> 02:05:01,999 After all I was, I was real nervous when I first got up there 2322 02:05:02,209 --> 02:05:04,083 enough to keep my attention focused and everything, but 2323 02:05:04,626 --> 02:05:07,417 after I was up there a few minutes I started daydreaming 2324 02:05:09,626 --> 02:05:11,000 Daydreaming 2325 02:05:15,417 --> 02:05:18,709 Maybe they'll only halfway kill you when they convict you 2326 02:05:19,334 --> 02:05:21,209 - Halfway? How'll they do that? - Yeah 2327 02:05:21,334 --> 02:05:24,459 I don't know, maybe they'll start daydreaming and forget what they're doing 2328 02:05:27,584 --> 02:05:30,042 Anything wrong with wearing black in and of itself? 2329 02:05:31,417 --> 02:05:32,834 No 2330 02:05:33,375 --> 02:05:36,876 Anything wrong with heavy metal stuff, in and of itself? No 2331 02:05:37,000 --> 02:05:39,999 The book he has, anything wrong in and of itself? No 2332 02:05:40,250 --> 02:05:41,876 But when you look at it together 2333 02:05:42,042 --> 02:05:46,667 and you get, you begin to see inside Damien Echols 2334 02:05:47,000 --> 02:05:49,167 You see inside that person 2335 02:05:49,751 --> 02:05:52,000 and you look inside there and there's not a soul in there 2336 02:05:52,667 --> 02:05:54,209 My client is a teenager 2337 02:05:54,375 --> 02:05:56,083 and we certainly didn't hide that fact from you 2338 02:05:57,417 --> 02:05:59,292 And the fact that my client did some writing 2339 02:05:59,417 --> 02:06:01,667 take these back, go back and read them, go read all these 2340 02:06:02,125 --> 02:06:05,501 But this in and of itself is no evidence of murder 2341 02:06:05,626 --> 02:06:07,417 and even if you added all the other things 2342 02:06:07,751 --> 02:06:10,876 quote, trappings of occultism according to Dr. Griffiths 2343 02:06:11,459 --> 02:06:13,792 that has nothing to do with this case whatsoever 2344 02:06:13,959 --> 02:06:15,334 Is it a coincidence 2345 02:06:17,501 --> 02:06:19,542 this knife is found behind 2346 02:06:19,876 --> 02:06:21,584 in the lake, hidden 2347 02:06:22,667 --> 02:06:24,417 behind Jason Baldwin's house? 2348 02:06:24,876 --> 02:06:27,584 There are marks on Christopher Byers 2349 02:06:27,834 --> 02:06:30,792 where you got like a dash where it's a cut 2350 02:06:30,999 --> 02:06:34,209 a cut and an open space a cut and an open space 2351 02:06:35,417 --> 02:06:38,667 And if you take this knife 2352 02:06:38,792 --> 02:06:41,876 you can see it leaves 2353 02:06:42,501 --> 02:06:45,083 a cut and an open space a cut and an open space 2354 02:06:45,918 --> 02:06:47,292 Now, if you take 2355 02:06:48,999 --> 02:06:50,375 this knife 2356 02:06:51,542 --> 02:06:55,375 exhibit, defense exhibit 6 2357 02:06:56,709 --> 02:06:58,584 and even with the slightest pressure 2358 02:06:59,375 --> 02:07:00,876 it makes a straight line 2359 02:07:01,918 --> 02:07:03,292 Crime scene 2360 02:07:04,125 --> 02:07:06,042 it doesn't fit for a kid 2361 02:07:06,751 --> 02:07:08,417 to bleed to death 2362 02:07:09,292 --> 02:07:10,918 and not leave a drop behind 2363 02:07:11,501 --> 02:07:14,125 For all the other injuries to their faces 2364 02:07:14,459 --> 02:07:16,501 these other injuries gonna bleed too 2365 02:07:17,584 --> 02:07:19,083 And there's not a drop of blood 2366 02:07:19,999 --> 02:07:21,459 not a drop of blood? 2367 02:07:21,792 --> 02:07:23,167 Look at history 2368 02:07:23,375 --> 02:07:26,083 Look at hundreds of years of religious history 2369 02:07:26,918 --> 02:07:30,501 There have been hundreds of people killed in the name of religion 2370 02:07:31,167 --> 02:07:32,792 It is a motivating force 2371 02:07:32,918 --> 02:07:35,709 it gives people who want to do evil 2372 02:07:35,834 --> 02:07:39,584 want to commit murders, a reason to do what they're doing 2373 02:07:40,375 --> 02:07:41,999 Satanic panic 2374 02:07:44,125 --> 02:07:45,584 Yeah, that's a scary thing 2375 02:07:47,209 --> 02:07:49,792 But it's a scarier thing to convict somebody with no evidence 2376 02:07:50,375 --> 02:07:52,584 If you can't figure it out if it doesn't make sense 2377 02:07:52,918 --> 02:07:55,918 let's call it a cult killing and find somebody weird 2378 02:07:59,000 --> 02:08:00,542 Find somebody who wears black 2379 02:08:02,584 --> 02:08:04,250 They let one thing 2380 02:08:06,167 --> 02:08:07,584 go by the wayside 2381 02:08:08,501 --> 02:08:11,959 Is that there's nothing that links Jason to these activities 2382 02:08:12,709 --> 02:08:14,083 Not one witness says 2383 02:08:14,834 --> 02:08:16,584 that's what he does, that's his beliefs 2384 02:08:16,959 --> 02:08:18,876 We don't have a writing not a drawing, not a picture 2385 02:08:19,209 --> 02:08:20,834 not a person, nothing 2386 02:08:22,542 --> 02:08:23,959 links him to it 2387 02:08:24,417 --> 02:08:25,834 But that doesn't matter 2388 02:08:26,167 --> 02:08:29,125 doesn't matter to them because he's sitting over there with Damien 2389 02:08:29,501 --> 02:08:30,918 they want you to convict him 2390 02:08:31,375 --> 02:08:35,375 Guilty by association is a horrible thing 2391 02:08:44,209 --> 02:08:45,918 Damien, do you think he looks like you? 2392 02:08:46,501 --> 02:08:48,792 I don't know, not really 2393 02:08:49,167 --> 02:08:50,792 I think he's got Domini's ears 2394 02:09:01,083 --> 02:09:03,834 - Can you change his diapers, Damien? - Hopefully not 2395 02:09:12,999 --> 02:09:16,167 So, do you think you'll be spending more time with your child, Damien? 2396 02:09:16,751 --> 02:09:18,125 Hopefully 2397 02:09:24,626 --> 02:09:26,000 Come on, Damien, it's time 2398 02:09:47,667 --> 02:09:49,999 So what's his first words gonna be, not guilty? 2399 02:09:50,667 --> 02:09:53,042 Um, his first words will be capital murder 2400 02:10:09,125 --> 02:10:11,999 What's it feel like to be, go through a month long trial? 2401 02:10:12,626 --> 02:10:14,000 accused of something you didn't do 2402 02:10:15,083 --> 02:10:16,501 Horrible 2403 02:10:21,209 --> 02:10:22,709 - are you nervous now? - Yeah 2404 02:10:23,292 --> 02:10:25,626 I mean, there's nothing we can do right now but sit around and wait but... 2405 02:10:27,000 --> 02:10:30,042 um, you, you got anything you wanna ask me? 2406 02:10:33,501 --> 02:10:34,959 Where do we go if, um 2407 02:10:35,334 --> 02:10:37,417 the jury comes back out and says I'm not guilty? 2408 02:10:39,834 --> 02:10:41,334 Well, where do you wanna go? 2409 02:10:41,792 --> 02:10:43,250 - Um... - where do you wanna go? 2410 02:10:43,709 --> 02:10:45,542 - Disneyland maybe, yeah - Would you? Would you like to go 2411 02:10:45,667 --> 02:10:49,292 to Disneyland? Have you, have you ever been anywhere out of... 2412 02:10:49,417 --> 02:10:50,876 Have you ever been on a trip at all? 2413 02:10:51,792 --> 02:10:53,292 - Haver Springs - Haver Springs 2414 02:10:55,876 --> 02:10:58,792 Well, I tell you what, my man I, I, it'd be a joy to take you 2415 02:11:01,083 --> 02:11:02,542 You'd like to go? You would, wouldn't you? 2416 02:11:02,667 --> 02:11:04,042 Yeah 2417 02:11:04,209 --> 02:11:06,250 Do understand now why we, uh 2418 02:11:07,375 --> 02:11:09,876 - Why we didn't want you to testify? - Yeah 2419 02:11:12,083 --> 02:11:14,667 Can you see how it hurt Damien? You, I think it did 2420 02:11:15,459 --> 02:11:17,209 And then see how they talked about his witnesses 2421 02:11:17,417 --> 02:11:18,959 - Mhmm - See, they don't have anything to talk 2422 02:11:19,042 --> 02:11:20,459 about us 2423 02:11:20,626 --> 02:11:23,083 They don't have anything to talk about cause we didn't give them a chance 2424 02:11:24,999 --> 02:11:26,375 And, uh... 2425 02:11:28,709 --> 02:11:30,083 Oh, man 2426 02:11:30,999 --> 02:11:32,375 It's heavy 2427 02:11:36,542 --> 02:11:37,959 Do you think that, um... 2428 02:11:38,542 --> 02:11:40,125 this will change at all? 2429 02:11:42,667 --> 02:11:44,375 How you treat your friends? 2430 02:11:45,209 --> 02:11:46,626 Yeah 2431 02:11:47,959 --> 02:11:49,334 What do you think this would do? 2432 02:11:49,751 --> 02:11:51,334 What do you think this is gonna do to you and Damien? 2433 02:11:51,459 --> 02:11:52,999 You and your friendship with Damien? 2434 02:11:58,042 --> 02:12:01,083 - Stop it, I guess, yes - Would you stop being his friend? 2435 02:12:01,792 --> 02:12:03,209 I wouldn't be his enemy, but 2436 02:12:03,667 --> 02:12:06,083 after this, probably wouldn't be around or nothing 2437 02:12:06,459 --> 02:12:08,542 You, you heard what was said about him 2438 02:12:08,876 --> 02:12:10,292 Do you think he could have done it? 2439 02:12:13,459 --> 02:12:15,834 - Isn't that what they said? - Yeah, you think he could've 2440 02:12:15,959 --> 02:12:19,000 Do you think Damien could have killed those little boys? 2441 02:12:30,751 --> 02:12:32,501 They made it seem like he did 2442 02:12:35,125 --> 02:12:36,999 - What do you think? - I don't know 2443 02:12:41,792 --> 02:12:44,667 If you were on that jury, you'd have, would you have a hard time letting him go? 2444 02:12:47,042 --> 02:12:48,459 Based on what you heard? 2445 02:12:49,125 --> 02:12:50,542 Yeah 2446 02:12:57,167 --> 02:12:58,584 I would, too 2447 02:12:59,125 --> 02:13:00,542 Would you let yourself go? 2448 02:13:04,459 --> 02:13:08,417 Yeah, if I was up there I'd let myself go, yeah 2449 02:13:10,209 --> 02:13:11,626 That's the thing I wanted to hear 2450 02:13:11,876 --> 02:13:13,334 Cause you know you did good, don't you 2451 02:13:13,459 --> 02:13:14,876 Yeah 2452 02:13:17,876 --> 02:13:20,042 Did Paul surprise you, on his closing? 2453 02:13:21,000 --> 02:13:24,334 I think Paul should have left out the guilt by association part 2454 02:13:24,459 --> 02:13:26,501 - that's not - He came hard at that part, did he? 2455 02:13:26,626 --> 02:13:28,000 Mhmm 2456 02:13:28,125 --> 02:13:29,667 Did you have any idea he was gonna do that? 2457 02:13:29,792 --> 02:13:31,167 Mhmm 2458 02:13:31,709 --> 02:13:33,709 But I thought he'd be smart enough to stay away from it 2459 02:13:35,584 --> 02:13:36,999 Hurt your feelings? 2460 02:13:38,918 --> 02:13:40,292 I wanted to strangle him 2461 02:13:45,459 --> 02:13:47,584 - Were you watching the jury? - Mhmm 2462 02:13:49,000 --> 02:13:50,417 How do you pick it? 2463 02:13:51,334 --> 02:13:52,751 With my finger, no 2464 02:13:52,918 --> 02:13:54,292 Um... 2465 02:13:56,501 --> 02:13:58,459 Now I think it was probably about 60, 40 2466 02:13:59,292 --> 02:14:01,209 40 for and 60 against 2467 02:14:05,334 --> 02:14:06,959 Once you get out of here you gonna buy a bear? 2468 02:14:08,292 --> 02:14:09,709 A whiskey 2469 02:14:11,000 --> 02:14:12,417 Not a beer 2470 02:14:14,000 --> 02:14:15,709 And I'll buy the Bojangles chicken 2471 02:14:22,959 --> 02:14:24,417 I'm gonna get a cigar 2472 02:14:24,918 --> 02:14:26,667 cut it open and dump all the tobacco out 2473 02:14:27,501 --> 02:14:31,125 fill it with marijuana smoke the whole thing 2474 02:14:31,792 --> 02:14:33,584 I mean, we gotta get you out of here, you gotta go to work 2475 02:14:33,709 --> 02:14:35,083 we need to pay my bill 2476 02:14:37,334 --> 02:14:39,542 Maybe get a job at a gas station or something 2477 02:14:40,083 --> 02:14:41,834 Change my name to Bob Smith 2478 02:14:42,792 --> 02:14:45,167 All right, ladies and gentlemen the bailiffs inform me 2479 02:14:45,292 --> 02:14:47,167 uh, that you've arrived at verdicts 2480 02:14:47,292 --> 02:14:50,292 if you, if you have, pass them to the bailiff, please, or the sheriff and... 2481 02:14:53,000 --> 02:14:54,417 Thank you 2482 02:15:12,417 --> 02:15:14,042 The first verdict reads as follows 2483 02:15:14,167 --> 02:15:17,083 "We the jury find Damien Echols guilty of capital murder" 2484 02:15:17,209 --> 02:15:18,626 "in the death of Stevie Branch" 2485 02:15:19,792 --> 02:15:23,042 "We the jury find Damien Echols guilty of capital murder" 2486 02:15:23,167 --> 02:15:24,709 "in the death of Chris Byers" 2487 02:15:26,000 --> 02:15:28,834 "We the jury find Damien Echols guilty of capital murder" 2488 02:15:28,959 --> 02:15:30,375 "in the death of Michael Moore" 2489 02:15:31,000 --> 02:15:34,334 "We the jury find Jason Baldwin guilty of capital murder" 2490 02:15:34,459 --> 02:15:35,876 "in the death of Chris Byers" 2491 02:15:36,501 --> 02:15:39,292 "We the jury find Jason Baldwin guilty of capital murder" 2492 02:15:39,417 --> 02:15:40,876 "in the death of Stevie Branch" 2493 02:15:42,292 --> 02:15:45,167 "We the jury find Jason Baldwin guilty of capital murder" 2494 02:15:45,292 --> 02:15:46,751 "in the death of Michael Moore" 2495 02:15:47,000 --> 02:15:50,250 All of the verdicts are signed by the foreman 2496 02:15:50,751 --> 02:15:52,959 And ladies and gentlemen it's necessary at this time 2497 02:15:53,042 --> 02:15:57,751 that the court poll the jury as to all six verdicts 2498 02:15:58,709 --> 02:16:01,042 so, when your name is called 2499 02:16:01,292 --> 02:16:04,918 if these six verdicts represent your individual verdict 2500 02:16:05,000 --> 02:16:07,751 then answer yes as your name is called 2501 02:16:08,918 --> 02:16:11,334 - Juror number 1 - Yes 2502 02:16:11,459 --> 02:16:13,250 - Juror number 2 - Yes 2503 02:16:14,083 --> 02:16:16,667 - Juror number 3 - Yes 2504 02:16:17,375 --> 02:16:18,918 "Juror number 4" 2505 02:16:22,751 --> 02:16:24,959 - "Juror number 5" - "Yes" 2506 02:16:25,626 --> 02:16:27,999 - "Juror number 6" - "Yes" 2507 02:16:28,417 --> 02:16:30,626 - "Juror number 7" - "Yes" 2508 02:16:31,125 --> 02:16:33,250 The prosecution didn't have any evidence 2509 02:16:33,375 --> 02:16:34,792 but they don't care 2510 02:16:35,334 --> 02:16:38,000 Just because somebody wears black and has different beliefs 2511 02:16:38,125 --> 02:16:39,709 they're gonna convict them of something 2512 02:16:40,125 --> 02:16:41,667 - Poor, poor parents - Yeah 2513 02:16:41,792 --> 02:16:43,209 I'm sorry for them, but... 2514 02:16:43,334 --> 02:16:45,584 I ain't, I ain't sorry for them 2515 02:16:45,918 --> 02:16:47,459 - I'm sorry for the kids - I ain't sorry for them 2516 02:16:47,584 --> 02:16:49,999 I don't give a damn about the parents but I'm sorry for the kids 2517 02:16:50,083 --> 02:16:52,375 I ain't even sorry... 2518 02:16:52,501 --> 02:16:54,000 I ain't sorry for anybody 2519 02:16:54,584 --> 02:16:56,083 There's no reason they're... 2520 02:16:57,209 --> 02:16:58,667 kill three more boys 2521 02:16:59,292 --> 02:17:00,709 that didn't do a damn thing 2522 02:17:02,584 --> 02:17:04,250 Right now I wish I was a witch 2523 02:17:04,584 --> 02:17:07,999 Talk about a spell on somebody boy, I'd put a good one on 2524 02:17:09,709 --> 02:17:13,542 I guess Gitchell goes out with a big bang didn't know he was fucking gonna retire 2525 02:17:14,292 --> 02:17:17,334 He said he was gonna retire, now he's probably gonna run for office 2526 02:17:18,876 --> 02:17:20,834 I got an office for him 2527 02:17:22,250 --> 02:17:23,667 Mayor of hell 2528 02:17:23,792 --> 02:17:25,709 Far as I'm concerned West Memphis can go to hell 2529 02:17:26,584 --> 02:17:27,999 West Memphis is hell 2530 02:17:28,501 --> 02:17:30,918 I have, uh, put my 20 years in 2531 02:17:31,542 --> 02:17:36,417 and, uh, hopefully this is the last case I'll have of this magnitude 2532 02:17:37,000 --> 02:17:38,667 Uh, hopefully it's my last case 2533 02:17:39,334 --> 02:17:42,125 And, uh, I'm leaving on a high note 2534 02:17:42,250 --> 02:17:45,792 so there's no better way to leave than your head up high and proud 2535 02:17:47,459 --> 02:17:49,542 Well, you know, I, I don't, I don't 2536 02:17:51,501 --> 02:17:54,042 I'm not surprised if that, that's what you're asking 2537 02:17:54,167 --> 02:17:56,584 you know, I told you earlier I thought the evidence was, was 2538 02:17:56,709 --> 02:17:59,000 more than sufficient to make those findings 2539 02:17:59,584 --> 02:18:03,501 They will kill no more babies No more babies will they kill 2540 02:18:05,334 --> 02:18:06,751 Let's go 2541 02:18:21,751 --> 02:18:23,125 The black one... 2542 02:18:23,292 --> 02:18:24,709 Here you go 2543 02:18:35,542 --> 02:18:36,959 Let's go 2544 02:19:19,999 --> 02:19:21,501 - You gonna get out - I know 2545 02:19:21,959 --> 02:19:23,584 - You gonna get out - I know 2546 02:19:25,834 --> 02:19:27,209 Damien, did you do it? 2547 02:19:27,834 --> 02:19:30,292 - You're gonna fry, Damien - How are you feeling now, Damien? 2548 02:19:30,751 --> 02:19:32,209 You're gonna fry, Damien 2549 02:19:35,209 --> 02:19:36,667 "Gonna fry" 2550 02:19:37,209 --> 02:19:39,667 - See you in hell, Damien - We know you're innocent, Jason 2551 02:20:13,334 --> 02:20:15,125 I knew from when I was real small that 2552 02:20:16,042 --> 02:20:18,792 people were gonna know who I was I always had that feeling 2553 02:20:19,292 --> 02:20:22,709 I just never knew how they were gonna learn 2554 02:20:24,000 --> 02:20:27,083 And, I kind of enjoy it because now after if I die 2555 02:20:27,209 --> 02:20:29,459 people are gonna remember me forever 2556 02:20:29,918 --> 02:20:31,834 they're gonna talk about me for years, people... 2557 02:20:32,667 --> 02:20:35,626 in West Memphis will tell their kids stories 2558 02:20:35,834 --> 02:20:39,999 it, it'll be like, sort of like I'm the West Memphis boogeyman 2559 02:20:40,459 --> 02:20:42,959 Little kids'll be looking under their bed before they go to be 2560 02:20:43,042 --> 02:20:44,459 Damien might be under there