1 00:00:12,500 --> 00:00:15,333 TONI: I was a former girlfriend of Keith Raniere. 2 00:00:15,750 --> 00:00:18,917 I started to feel uncomfortable with things that were going on 3 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:20,083 with the company. 4 00:00:21,792 --> 00:00:24,250 He took my shame, and he figured out a way 5 00:00:24,333 --> 00:00:25,458 to use it to control me. 6 00:00:26,125 --> 00:00:27,667 I thought, I'm gonna break up with him 7 00:00:27,750 --> 00:00:29,667 and that's gonna be the end of the relationship. 8 00:00:30,417 --> 00:00:32,542 That was just kind of the beginning of hell. 9 00:00:33,583 --> 00:00:36,750 What we need is evidence of criminality. 10 00:00:38,375 --> 00:00:39,709 Who can we bring in to help us? 11 00:00:40,250 --> 00:00:41,542 CATHERINE: We have the same agenda. 12 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:43,875 He'a helped a lot of people get out. 13 00:00:44,375 --> 00:00:45,667 FRANK PARLATO: They're starving your daughter. 14 00:00:45,750 --> 00:00:47,166 They're making her sleep deprived. 15 00:00:47,625 --> 00:00:50,208 We need more people to come out on the record. 16 00:00:50,291 --> 00:00:52,792 I'm gonna start a list. Who wants to help? 17 00:00:54,500 --> 00:00:57,667 CATHERINE: I never assumed that I would be responsible 18 00:00:57,917 --> 00:00:59,417 for so much of this. 19 00:00:59,709 --> 00:01:03,458 This is a horrible situation for a parent to be in. 20 00:01:12,458 --> 00:01:15,750 (gears clicking) 21 00:01:15,834 --> 00:01:18,959 (high-pitched whine) 22 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:24,583 Keith Raniere: You know, I watched my-- 23 00:01:24,667 --> 00:01:26,625 the way my father treated my mother, 24 00:01:26,709 --> 00:01:28,417 and I wanted to model my father, 25 00:01:28,500 --> 00:01:30,041 so I treated my mother that way. 26 00:01:30,125 --> 00:01:31,917 But when I get on the playground, 27 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,250 and some little girl takes my things and hits me with a bucket, 28 00:01:35,333 --> 00:01:38,375 if I hit back, I'm punished. 29 00:01:38,458 --> 00:01:41,709 Normally, it's a father, or a brother, or another man 30 00:01:41,792 --> 00:01:44,417 grabs the little boy's wrist and holds him back. 31 00:01:44,500 --> 00:01:46,834 And normally, we're something like two. 32 00:01:47,667 --> 00:01:50,792 And that first time, when that happens to us, 33 00:01:50,875 --> 00:01:52,542 it is unjust. 34 00:01:52,625 --> 00:01:53,917 ♪♪ 35 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:56,250 We don't have the ability to reason this out. 36 00:01:56,333 --> 00:02:00,250 All we're seeing is, that person can do, and we can't. 37 00:02:00,333 --> 00:02:02,583 I'm not loved. I'm not the loved one, here. 38 00:02:02,667 --> 00:02:05,250 I'm not the one that gets cared for. 39 00:02:05,333 --> 00:02:09,500 And all of us, as little boys, 40 00:02:09,583 --> 00:02:12,917 to some degree, we experience what I call a wound. 41 00:02:16,041 --> 00:02:19,291 The indirect wound that a woman feels is 42 00:02:19,375 --> 00:02:21,417 as she's a little girl, her life is protected. 43 00:02:21,500 --> 00:02:23,291 And she lives in this 44 00:02:23,375 --> 00:02:25,458 protected life, protected life, protected life. 45 00:02:25,542 --> 00:02:27,792 And suddenly, as she gets a little older, 46 00:02:27,875 --> 00:02:30,750 she starts hitting up against reality, 47 00:02:30,834 --> 00:02:32,959 and against being suppressed, 48 00:02:33,041 --> 00:02:34,500 put in a glass box, 49 00:02:34,583 --> 00:02:37,959 and that is, that is a, a shock. 50 00:02:38,041 --> 00:02:41,208 And what is the wound? The wound is she's been overprotected. 51 00:02:42,250 --> 00:02:45,500 But as men, we have a very direct wound. 52 00:02:45,583 --> 00:02:49,000 It's an ache, a hurt, a sadness. 53 00:02:49,083 --> 00:02:51,834 And maybe you can't even quite put your finger on it. 54 00:02:51,917 --> 00:02:54,375 But all the way back to the end, 55 00:02:54,458 --> 00:02:57,542 there was an inherent unfairness that we lived. 56 00:02:57,625 --> 00:03:01,875 This wound is something that is very deep, 57 00:03:01,959 --> 00:03:06,125 and very emotional, and something we have to come to grips with. Why? 58 00:03:06,208 --> 00:03:09,000 Because it can be the foundation 59 00:03:09,083 --> 00:03:11,458 of an anger and a hate towards women. 60 00:03:11,542 --> 00:03:13,750 (boys yelling) 61 00:03:23,792 --> 00:03:26,875 ("Dream State" by Son Lux playing) 62 00:03:28,875 --> 00:03:31,208 ♪ Days we were young ♪ 63 00:03:31,291 --> 00:03:36,709 ♪ We took photographs of everything we could see ♪ 64 00:03:36,792 --> 00:03:40,417 ♪ We had to run from it ♪ 65 00:03:40,500 --> 00:03:42,500 ♪ Priest and prophetess ♪ 66 00:03:42,583 --> 00:03:47,250 ♪ We were nothing we would defy ♪ 67 00:03:48,250 --> 00:03:52,375 ♪ Oh, invisible skin ♪ 68 00:03:52,458 --> 00:03:55,333 ♪ Where is the world within ♪ 69 00:03:56,291 --> 00:03:58,542 ♪ Invincible skin ♪ 70 00:03:58,625 --> 00:04:01,458 ♪ It's how we all begin ♪ 71 00:04:11,834 --> 00:04:13,333 Catherine Oxenberg: Thank you so much. 72 00:04:21,166 --> 00:04:22,458 Frank? 73 00:04:23,458 --> 00:04:26,083 Oxenberg: Hey. I think it went really well. 74 00:04:26,166 --> 00:04:28,458 -(Frank Parlato speaking) -And it looks like 75 00:04:28,542 --> 00:04:31,417 they may be, um, assigning a task force. 76 00:04:31,500 --> 00:04:33,458 FBI task force. 77 00:04:33,542 --> 00:04:34,875 (Parlato speaking) 78 00:04:34,959 --> 00:04:35,959 Yeah. 79 00:04:36,041 --> 00:04:37,583 It's good, it's good news. 80 00:04:37,667 --> 00:04:39,542 And they want to focus on DOS. 81 00:04:39,625 --> 00:04:41,750 The coercive aspect of it. 82 00:04:41,834 --> 00:04:45,542 The trafficking, and, um, 83 00:04:45,625 --> 00:04:47,709 they want to speak to witnesses immediately. 84 00:04:49,041 --> 00:04:50,750 (Parlato speaking) 85 00:04:50,834 --> 00:04:52,542 Thank you, Frank. 86 00:04:53,375 --> 00:04:54,542 Okay. 87 00:04:56,542 --> 00:04:59,208 (line ringing) 88 00:05:00,875 --> 00:05:02,959 India Oxenberg: (on voicemail) Hi, you've reached India Oxenberg. 89 00:05:03,041 --> 00:05:06,959 Please leave a voicemail, and I will get back to you as soon as possible. 90 00:05:07,041 --> 00:05:08,667 Have a great day. 91 00:05:13,709 --> 00:05:15,959 Oxenberg: I sent her a really strong tet this morning 92 00:05:16,041 --> 00:05:17,333 saying, "Get out of there. 93 00:05:17,417 --> 00:05:19,834 You're going to go down for human trafficking." 94 00:05:19,917 --> 00:05:22,291 Bonnie Piesse: No, I've, I've been thinking about her a lot today 95 00:05:22,375 --> 00:05:24,291 and thinking she's walking into all these traps. 96 00:05:24,375 --> 00:05:26,333 She's trusting Keith. 97 00:05:26,417 --> 00:05:28,458 She thinks he's trustworthy. 98 00:05:28,542 --> 00:05:30,417 Oxenberg: Well, I've been warning her about the FBI, 99 00:05:30,500 --> 00:05:31,792 so the fact that I actually-- you know, 100 00:05:31,875 --> 00:05:33,750 -in the beginning, I was just making shit up. -Piesse: Right. 101 00:05:33,834 --> 00:05:36,625 Because I wanted to scare her, but now it's really happening. 102 00:05:36,709 --> 00:05:38,625 It's insane. 103 00:05:41,250 --> 00:05:43,834 What they want to do is focus on DOS, 104 00:05:43,917 --> 00:05:46,500 and then once they've got something, 105 00:05:46,583 --> 00:05:48,041 -then open it up. -Mark Vicente: Expand it. 106 00:05:48,125 --> 00:05:49,500 -Yeah. -Piesse: And they can make arrests for DOS, 107 00:05:49,583 --> 00:05:51,333 -I think. -Apparently so. I mean, 108 00:05:51,417 --> 00:05:52,959 -I was-- -Vicente: I was surprised by that. 109 00:05:53,041 --> 00:05:54,542 Oxenberg: Yeah, because when you guys dealt with this, 110 00:05:54,625 --> 00:05:56,208 -you went to the FBI. -Vicente: Yeah. 111 00:05:56,291 --> 00:05:58,125 They said it's consensual. There's nothing we can do. 112 00:05:58,208 --> 00:05:59,542 -So, at a certain point-- -Vicente: I think though-- 113 00:05:59,625 --> 00:06:01,834 It's because of the whole women's rights thing... 114 00:06:01,917 --> 00:06:04,208 -that's going on. It must be. -Oxenberg: That's crazy. 115 00:06:04,291 --> 00:06:05,875 Vicente: They may have leverage right now, 116 00:06:05,959 --> 00:06:07,834 -because of that. That they have a way in. -Yeah. 117 00:06:07,917 --> 00:06:09,458 -Piesse: It'll be high-profile right now. -Vicente: Yeah. 118 00:06:09,542 --> 00:06:11,959 Oxenberg: But why it's relevant 119 00:06:12,041 --> 00:06:13,667 is people were conditioned... 120 00:06:13,750 --> 00:06:16,709 -Yeah. Yeah. -...to accept that type of mistreatment. 121 00:06:16,792 --> 00:06:19,375 Oxenberg: I think that there was things you learned 122 00:06:19,458 --> 00:06:21,542 for you to normalize the DOS stuff. 123 00:06:21,625 --> 00:06:24,166 -Vicente: Yep. -I would give them the curriculum. 124 00:06:24,250 --> 00:06:26,667 -Yep. -Vicente: We have videos of these things. 125 00:06:26,750 --> 00:06:29,792 -You need to hand over all of that material. -Piesse: Yeah. Yeah. 126 00:06:30,291 --> 00:06:32,500 Oxenberg: So you're having to bring the whole story together. 127 00:06:32,583 --> 00:06:34,834 Your psyche's going to be fighting this. 128 00:06:34,917 --> 00:06:36,250 Piesse: I don't feel that in my heart at all. 129 00:06:36,333 --> 00:06:38,041 -But my brain has been, you know. -Well-- 130 00:06:38,125 --> 00:06:39,542 Your heart hasn't been tampered with. 131 00:06:39,625 --> 00:06:42,125 -Piesse: No. -The circuitry is a bit messed. 132 00:06:46,625 --> 00:06:48,875 Raniere: If someone thinks they can be brainwashed, 133 00:06:48,959 --> 00:06:50,875 or is worried about brainwashing, 134 00:06:50,959 --> 00:06:52,917 -then they definitely shouldn't come to our program. -Woman: Mm-hmm. 135 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:54,875 Our program has nothing to do with brainwashing, 136 00:06:54,959 --> 00:06:57,709 but if someone holds those sort of beliefs, 137 00:06:57,792 --> 00:07:01,542 they're probably better either in other sorts of problem programs, 138 00:07:01,625 --> 00:07:03,250 or maybe being with a therapist 139 00:07:03,333 --> 00:07:05,583 if they feel they have been brainwashed, or whatever. 140 00:07:05,667 --> 00:07:08,750 But then again, you'd have people walk into Walmart and have a heart attack. 141 00:07:08,834 --> 00:07:11,792 And does that mean that Walmart caused the heart attack? 142 00:07:12,500 --> 00:07:14,959 -(footsteps) -(keys jangling) 143 00:07:17,041 --> 00:07:18,834 Piesse: Okay. (clears throat) 144 00:07:19,291 --> 00:07:21,125 (exhales) 145 00:07:21,208 --> 00:07:23,250 I've been going through the documents 146 00:07:23,333 --> 00:07:24,959 and audio and video files 147 00:07:25,041 --> 00:07:26,959 that I want to take with me to testify. 148 00:07:30,125 --> 00:07:31,917 I'm really seeing how as much as I thought 149 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,375 this was a curriculum for growth, 150 00:07:35,458 --> 00:07:37,792 it's really just, it's, it's a weapon. 151 00:07:39,583 --> 00:07:41,417 Raniere: I consider myself 152 00:07:41,500 --> 00:07:44,625 more credentialed as a, a scientist, I guess. 153 00:07:44,709 --> 00:07:47,667 And I don't have a lot of high-level credentials, 154 00:07:47,750 --> 00:07:50,083 but I think I'm a good scientific thinker. 155 00:07:50,166 --> 00:07:53,625 I think that my credentials ae 156 00:07:53,709 --> 00:07:56,625 I'm an interesting person, I'm a controversial person, 157 00:07:56,709 --> 00:07:58,750 but most importantly, 158 00:07:58,834 --> 00:08:00,750 I'm an unconventional person. 159 00:08:00,834 --> 00:08:04,667 And when conventional solutions don't work, 160 00:08:04,750 --> 00:08:07,709 maybe the unconventional way of thinking does. 161 00:08:10,750 --> 00:08:13,000 This is all a big experiment that we're doing. 162 00:08:13,083 --> 00:08:14,875 You're part of it. 163 00:08:15,583 --> 00:08:18,500 Piesse: I did start reflecting on Jness, 164 00:08:18,583 --> 00:08:22,125 which was the women's movement that Keith started. 165 00:08:22,959 --> 00:08:26,125 And I did have, like, an upheaval inside. 166 00:08:29,917 --> 00:08:32,375 So, I'm this guy 167 00:08:32,458 --> 00:08:34,625 putting together this training. 168 00:08:34,709 --> 00:08:37,542 I'm gonna somehow bring to light 169 00:08:37,625 --> 00:08:39,792 how women are taught 170 00:08:39,875 --> 00:08:42,500 about being a woman, when I have no idea what it's like 171 00:08:42,583 --> 00:08:43,583 being a woman. 172 00:08:44,500 --> 00:08:47,667 But from Jness zero through Jness 8 now, 173 00:08:47,750 --> 00:08:50,333 is a type of evolutionary process. 174 00:08:50,417 --> 00:08:53,542 I can't say exactly what's gonna happen. 175 00:08:54,208 --> 00:08:56,208 And maybe some day, 176 00:08:56,291 --> 00:08:58,125 there will be a women's organization 177 00:08:58,208 --> 00:09:00,166 that will be truly potent. 178 00:09:00,250 --> 00:09:02,208 Do you all agree it has to be done? 179 00:09:03,500 --> 00:09:05,750 I don't know. Any of you want to step up and do that, 180 00:09:05,834 --> 00:09:07,417 or do you wanna just sit back? 181 00:09:08,125 --> 00:09:10,500 I think that there's a specific reason why 182 00:09:10,583 --> 00:09:12,000 the 12 of us are here. 183 00:09:12,083 --> 00:09:13,834 Given the nature of our personalities, 184 00:09:13,917 --> 00:09:15,542 what we've done in the company so far, 185 00:09:15,625 --> 00:09:16,792 and our apparent values. 186 00:09:17,834 --> 00:09:19,875 If 12 women who are strong, who are powerful, 187 00:09:19,959 --> 00:09:21,709 hold this vision as important, 188 00:09:21,792 --> 00:09:25,041 that in and of itself will have a ripple effect, I believe, 189 00:09:25,125 --> 00:09:28,250 on the company, and on how we relate to one another. 190 00:09:28,333 --> 00:09:32,000 -Yeah. -Women work best together when we're together. 191 00:09:33,792 --> 00:09:35,792 (women laughing) 192 00:09:39,333 --> 00:09:41,834 Piesse: Allison was kind of a head of Jness. 193 00:09:41,917 --> 00:09:44,709 And so, for me, I think that kept me removed from Jness. 194 00:09:47,792 --> 00:09:51,083 I always got weird feelings around Allison. 195 00:09:51,166 --> 00:09:53,250 You have to know another human 196 00:09:53,333 --> 00:09:55,083 to experience once ourselves. 197 00:09:55,166 --> 00:09:56,458 Is that the right line? 198 00:09:56,542 --> 00:09:58,083 -Woman: Close. Yeah, pretty much. -Hey! 199 00:09:58,166 --> 00:10:00,291 I'm paraphrasing Keith Raniere quotes. Why not? 200 00:10:00,375 --> 00:10:02,709 Piesse: And I felt like I was the only one who had that, 201 00:10:02,792 --> 00:10:04,375 'cause people seemed to really like her. 202 00:10:04,458 --> 00:10:07,000 Like, she's quite, she was quite seductive. 203 00:10:08,166 --> 00:10:11,917 And so, she used Jness to make a little fan club of, of women, 204 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,208 that were bowing down to Allison. 205 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,583 And I'd also seen her telling young girls 206 00:10:17,667 --> 00:10:20,041 to count their calories and get really skinny. 207 00:10:20,500 --> 00:10:24,083 And she was actually being rewarded and promoted. 208 00:10:24,166 --> 00:10:26,709 It was just like, what is going on? 209 00:10:26,917 --> 00:10:29,625 For a while, she didn't want to listen to me at all, 210 00:10:29,709 --> 00:10:31,208 and everyone just kind of made it my problem. 211 00:10:31,291 --> 00:10:35,041 And eventually, Keith offered to run, like a, kind of a mediation. 212 00:10:53,875 --> 00:10:55,041 Raniere: Mm-hmm. 213 00:11:40,083 --> 00:11:41,250 Allison Mack: Mm-hmm. 214 00:11:51,959 --> 00:11:55,083 Piesse: Looking back, I think the women in DOS were, like, 215 00:11:55,166 --> 00:11:58,792 using Jness as a way to recruit all these girls. 216 00:12:03,291 --> 00:12:05,375 Vicente: I don't know what the FBI's like, 217 00:12:05,458 --> 00:12:08,166 but I don't know that I'm ready for this meeting. 218 00:12:08,959 --> 00:12:10,917 I have, like, a thumb drive here. 219 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:14,041 You know, stuff about fraud, human trafficking, money laundering. 220 00:12:14,125 --> 00:12:16,417 All of these things help establish a pattern. 221 00:12:16,500 --> 00:12:19,667 And the pattern is what establishes, like, you know, bad intent. 222 00:12:20,750 --> 00:12:23,083 But because they want to focus on DOS, 223 00:12:23,166 --> 00:12:26,041 I want them to understand that DOS is an effect 224 00:12:26,125 --> 00:12:27,667 of a bigger problem. 225 00:12:27,750 --> 00:12:29,709 DOS happened because 226 00:12:29,792 --> 00:12:33,333 of years of indoctrination that people have. 227 00:12:36,625 --> 00:12:39,417 And I always say the curriculum teaches me. 228 00:12:39,500 --> 00:12:41,625 I'm the creator of the curriculum. 229 00:12:41,709 --> 00:12:44,417 I would like to think it is something that is useful. 230 00:12:44,500 --> 00:12:47,417 But really, if you want to be a true scientist, 231 00:12:47,500 --> 00:12:50,250 there has to be a base belief that you don't know. 232 00:12:50,333 --> 00:12:51,917 Maybe even can't know, 233 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,208 but you're gonna fumble around and enjoy it. 234 00:12:54,291 --> 00:12:55,417 You understand? 235 00:12:55,500 --> 00:12:56,875 Yeah. 236 00:12:56,959 --> 00:13:00,417 We were led to believe that he, as a scientist, 237 00:13:00,500 --> 00:13:02,834 had a way to look at things. 238 00:13:07,208 --> 00:13:08,166 Woman: Okay. 239 00:13:20,083 --> 00:13:22,458 Vicente: And he would say pretty shocking stuff. 240 00:13:22,542 --> 00:13:25,583 But we were like, "It's a study. Oh, we're experimenting." 241 00:13:31,041 --> 00:13:34,125 Mm-hmm. For men, ally is functional. 242 00:13:34,208 --> 00:13:35,291 Okay. 243 00:13:35,375 --> 00:13:37,834 For women, ally is social. 244 00:13:47,709 --> 00:13:50,583 That women aren't inherently reliable. 245 00:13:50,667 --> 00:13:53,625 Women aren't inherently loyal. 246 00:13:53,709 --> 00:13:55,166 Women aren't, um, 247 00:13:55,250 --> 00:13:59,166 they don't keep secrets. They talk amongst themselves, or whatever. 248 00:13:59,250 --> 00:14:02,709 But it's like thinking a child is your ally. 249 00:14:03,959 --> 00:14:05,542 Vicente: The idea I was told 250 00:14:05,625 --> 00:14:08,500 was that they were being pushed to define themselves 251 00:14:08,583 --> 00:14:10,834 without being under our thumb, so to speak. 252 00:14:10,917 --> 00:14:12,208 Raniere: Mm-hmm. 253 00:14:27,417 --> 00:14:30,667 Raniere: So you need a certain emotional experience when you're a girl. 254 00:14:30,750 --> 00:14:32,542 -Woman: Yes. -Raniere: A little girl. 255 00:14:33,417 --> 00:14:35,208 Vicente: And at first, I thought 256 00:14:35,291 --> 00:14:38,291 women were actually having a deep understanding of themselves. 257 00:14:39,458 --> 00:14:42,000 Mack: And I feel like I have 258 00:14:42,083 --> 00:14:44,166 no fear in shooting for what I want, ideally. 259 00:14:44,250 --> 00:14:45,333 There's no reason to settle. 260 00:14:45,417 --> 00:14:47,542 And I see this really... 261 00:14:47,625 --> 00:14:50,041 positively affecting my job. 262 00:14:50,125 --> 00:14:53,041 And in interactions out-- just in the world. 263 00:14:53,125 --> 00:14:58,083 And it feels like there's such a supportive, team feeling to it. 264 00:14:59,125 --> 00:15:00,875 Vicente: And I think, to some degree, I was, like, 265 00:15:00,959 --> 00:15:02,667 "God, I wish we had that." 266 00:15:05,333 --> 00:15:09,417 My upbringing, as a young boy, 267 00:15:09,500 --> 00:15:12,166 honestly, I thought to myself, "Why am I so different from other men?" 268 00:15:13,291 --> 00:15:15,917 I was a deeply sensitive kid. 269 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,917 And I could not understand machismo at all. 270 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:21,959 And I just honestly hated it. 271 00:15:22,041 --> 00:15:24,250 I wasn't an athletic guy. 272 00:15:24,333 --> 00:15:26,917 I was, I was kinda a girly guy. 273 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:31,125 And I, I didn't make male friends very easily. 274 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,083 I was teased relentlessly. 275 00:15:34,166 --> 00:15:38,291 So I don't think I had a very clear idea of who I wanted to be as a man. 276 00:15:38,375 --> 00:15:40,500 Mark. Mark, Mark. 277 00:15:41,291 --> 00:15:43,291 Vicente: I went to Keith and I remember saying to him, 278 00:15:43,375 --> 00:15:44,750 "Men need education, too. 279 00:15:44,834 --> 00:15:46,959 Men need, like, understanding themselves." 280 00:15:47,625 --> 00:15:49,375 And then he said something like, you know, 281 00:15:49,458 --> 00:15:51,792 "Wouldn't it be great if we were the Society of Protectors?" 282 00:15:56,542 --> 00:15:59,083 And when I made sense of it for myself, 283 00:15:59,166 --> 00:16:01,500 it felt like a wonderful, noble thing. 284 00:16:02,041 --> 00:16:03,667 Hello. My name is Keith Raniere, 285 00:16:03,750 --> 00:16:06,250 and I'm the origin of the Society of Protectors, 286 00:16:06,333 --> 00:16:08,333 or more commonly known as SOP. 287 00:16:08,875 --> 00:16:11,583 As men, we're the ones who hold the doors, 288 00:16:11,667 --> 00:16:13,458 and pick up the bags. 289 00:16:13,542 --> 00:16:16,125 And more seriously, we're the ones who go to war, 290 00:16:16,208 --> 00:16:19,750 and we're taught that we're to leave the ship last. 291 00:16:19,834 --> 00:16:23,166 We are the doers. The providers. We're the protectors. 292 00:16:23,250 --> 00:16:26,500 But unfortunately, the world is getting more and more comfortable. 293 00:16:26,583 --> 00:16:28,667 And as a result, there are more and more men 294 00:16:28,750 --> 00:16:31,959 that are literally just boys in adult male bodies. 295 00:16:32,041 --> 00:16:34,500 And even if we live a sedentary, comfortable life, 296 00:16:34,583 --> 00:16:37,458 I think there's a part of us that rises to the occasion. 297 00:16:37,542 --> 00:16:40,000 To stand for something that's important. 298 00:16:40,083 --> 00:16:42,208 And our group is such a thing. 299 00:16:42,291 --> 00:16:44,792 -(applauding) -I don't know what to say. Um... 300 00:16:44,875 --> 00:16:47,166 I guess the "please be seated" thing works. 301 00:16:47,250 --> 00:16:49,417 (applause continues) 302 00:16:50,542 --> 00:16:52,709 Wow, that's loud. This is good. 303 00:16:52,792 --> 00:16:54,667 -(laughter) -Good. 304 00:16:54,750 --> 00:16:57,709 We were born, to a degree, as males, 305 00:16:57,792 --> 00:17:01,500 and we inherit this whole thing in our culture of masculinity. 306 00:17:01,583 --> 00:17:04,208 It's not something that's bad. 307 00:17:04,291 --> 00:17:06,625 Power is not bad. 308 00:17:06,709 --> 00:17:10,458 Even aggression, things like that, are not bad. 309 00:17:10,542 --> 00:17:13,500 That's what armies are made of. That's what teams are made of. 310 00:17:13,583 --> 00:17:16,875 That's one of the wonderful benefits 311 00:17:16,959 --> 00:17:18,834 of being in a male body. 312 00:17:18,917 --> 00:17:21,542 And learning ideology from the time you were young. 313 00:17:21,625 --> 00:17:24,208 Because you can subjugate your emotions. 314 00:17:24,291 --> 00:17:26,208 You can subjugate your comfort. 315 00:17:26,291 --> 00:17:29,625 You can subjugate all of those needs to a purpose. 316 00:17:37,500 --> 00:17:39,667 Vicente: And the reason I'm taking in the SOP stuff 317 00:17:39,750 --> 00:17:42,917 is because the readiness drills and the different drills we did, 318 00:17:43,500 --> 00:17:45,542 I believe got used 319 00:17:45,625 --> 00:17:47,250 for DOS. 320 00:17:47,333 --> 00:17:50,375 There are adversities that are bigger than the individual. 321 00:17:50,458 --> 00:17:52,834 And some day, that call's gonna come 322 00:17:52,917 --> 00:17:56,166 at 4:00 in the morning, and are you ready? 323 00:17:56,250 --> 00:17:58,667 Are you ready to push aside sleep, 324 00:17:58,750 --> 00:18:01,083 push aside all your other concerns, 325 00:18:01,166 --> 00:18:04,709 organize what needs to be done, and be there. 326 00:18:04,792 --> 00:18:06,250 Man: What do you think, man? 327 00:18:06,333 --> 00:18:08,583 -Fucking cold, man. -Man: Fucking cold, right? 328 00:18:08,667 --> 00:18:11,291 All: Yeah! 329 00:18:11,375 --> 00:18:13,083 Raniere: The only way you know you have character 330 00:18:13,166 --> 00:18:15,583 is when every fiber in your body, 331 00:18:15,667 --> 00:18:17,041 you're screaming from pain, 332 00:18:17,125 --> 00:18:18,875 and yet, you stay. 333 00:18:19,500 --> 00:18:21,583 Our commitment is our power. 334 00:18:21,667 --> 00:18:23,250 Vicente: And there was penances, 335 00:18:23,333 --> 00:18:26,250 and like, you know, punishments and things like that if you fucked up. 336 00:18:26,333 --> 00:18:28,583 You know, you plank for three minutes, you know. 337 00:18:28,667 --> 00:18:31,667 Everything became about a code of conduct. 338 00:18:33,166 --> 00:18:35,125 The idea was this Society of Protectors, 339 00:18:35,208 --> 00:18:37,917 like, to protect the world against evil. 340 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,667 But, uh, everything was designed to protect him. 341 00:18:43,500 --> 00:18:45,875 Raniere: What does our male sex drive feel like? 342 00:18:45,959 --> 00:18:47,250 Anyone here. 343 00:18:47,333 --> 00:18:48,667 (Man 1 speaking) 344 00:18:48,750 --> 00:18:50,125 -(Man 2 speaking) -(Man 3 speaking) 345 00:18:50,208 --> 00:18:52,792 -Yes. All, all of those things. -(Man 4 speaking) 346 00:18:52,875 --> 00:18:54,625 -It's this-- -(Man 5 speaking) 347 00:18:54,709 --> 00:18:56,458 It is urgent. 348 00:18:56,542 --> 00:18:59,959 So there's a very basic part of us that just wants to 349 00:19:00,041 --> 00:19:02,834 fuck something to get that release. 350 00:19:02,917 --> 00:19:05,250 For us, fucking, sex, 351 00:19:05,333 --> 00:19:07,959 has nothing to do with the other person, per se. 352 00:19:08,041 --> 00:19:10,125 It's what's gonna feel good. 353 00:19:10,208 --> 00:19:12,125 The primitive parts of us 354 00:19:12,208 --> 00:19:14,417 are hungry, fucky beasties. 355 00:19:14,500 --> 00:19:16,792 I mean, that's what we wanna do. This... 356 00:19:16,875 --> 00:19:20,417 I wanna fuck it. Fuck it. Fuck, fuck, fuck. 357 00:19:20,500 --> 00:19:22,583 I feel like fucking something today. 358 00:19:22,667 --> 00:19:25,458 God, I'm pissed! I wanna fuck something, you know. 359 00:19:25,542 --> 00:19:28,000 -(men laughing) -Our basic nature is we earn things. 360 00:19:28,083 --> 00:19:30,667 We are always testing if we're worthy. 361 00:19:30,750 --> 00:19:32,834 To be accepted in any way. 362 00:19:32,917 --> 00:19:34,500 If we conquer a woman, 363 00:19:34,583 --> 00:19:37,125 if we grab the thing we wanna fuck, whatever it is, 364 00:19:37,208 --> 00:19:39,333 and fuck it, that's a type of acceptance. 365 00:19:39,417 --> 00:19:41,500 And you know what's a better acceptance? 366 00:19:41,583 --> 00:19:45,333 That in our most angry thing, if they enjoy it. 367 00:19:45,417 --> 00:19:48,667 And if we do whatever we want, 368 00:19:48,750 --> 00:19:50,583 with our stuff... 369 00:19:52,208 --> 00:19:53,959 And they like it. 370 00:19:54,041 --> 00:19:55,750 That's acceptance. 371 00:19:57,750 --> 00:19:59,709 Vicente: I, at first, I was like, Jesus Christ. 372 00:19:59,792 --> 00:20:01,208 Can't we get to, like, the deeper shit? 373 00:20:01,291 --> 00:20:02,834 And I said to him, like, "Keith, 374 00:20:02,917 --> 00:20:05,250 why does this have to be, like, the porn weekend?" 375 00:20:08,542 --> 00:20:12,959 And he said to me, "Because men repress all these things they have. 376 00:20:15,667 --> 00:20:18,166 "We have to clear out the base issues 377 00:20:18,250 --> 00:20:20,875 before we can get to the higher aspirations." 378 00:20:20,959 --> 00:20:22,959 ♪ ♪ 379 00:20:48,959 --> 00:20:53,125 Troy: (laughing) I wanna be a dinosaur. 380 00:20:53,208 --> 00:20:55,625 -Rawr! -Are you a dinosaur? 381 00:20:55,709 --> 00:20:57,834 I'm your, I'm your dinosaur mommy. 382 00:20:59,291 --> 00:21:02,959 So one thing that I-- that ESP was never able to cure me of 383 00:21:03,041 --> 00:21:05,125 is my obsession about packing. 384 00:21:05,208 --> 00:21:08,834 And, like, wanting to have everything I could possibly need at all times. 385 00:21:09,208 --> 00:21:11,917 I can probably use 33 percent less 386 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:13,417 of what you're gonna put. 387 00:21:13,500 --> 00:21:14,917 -You think? -Yeah. 388 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,208 You see that? He doesn't trust my packing. 389 00:21:17,291 --> 00:21:18,917 (Troy chattering) 390 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,625 Sarah Edmondson: So I'm packing for myself. And for Nippy. 391 00:21:21,709 --> 00:21:22,875 He's going to LA to visit Mark 392 00:21:22,959 --> 00:21:25,500 and I'm heading to New York to testify for the FBI. 393 00:21:26,792 --> 00:21:28,041 Fuck. 394 00:21:28,125 --> 00:21:30,917 Troy: No, no, please put me down! 395 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:32,792 Edmondson: I'm realizing I'm actually, like, 396 00:21:32,875 --> 00:21:34,667 more anxious than I thought about this trip. 397 00:21:34,750 --> 00:21:36,417 Just like, ugh. 398 00:21:36,500 --> 00:21:38,125 It's like looking back on an old relationship, 399 00:21:38,208 --> 00:21:42,041 and, like, reliving every painful component of it. 400 00:21:42,667 --> 00:21:45,166 -Troy: Daddy, stop! -Nippy Ames: Hey, buddy. 401 00:21:45,250 --> 00:21:46,667 Edmondson: One of the things I'm gonna submit 402 00:21:46,750 --> 00:21:48,041 are my calls with Lauren. 403 00:21:49,709 --> 00:21:52,709 (exhales) I'm gonna skip towards the end. 404 00:22:18,083 --> 00:22:20,250 -Edmondson: Mm-hmm. -(Lauren Salzman continues) 405 00:22:22,709 --> 00:22:24,083 Okay. 406 00:22:25,750 --> 00:22:28,333 I have a-- somebody's nude photos in here. 407 00:22:28,417 --> 00:22:29,959 What am I supposed to do with those? Give them to the FBI? 408 00:22:30,041 --> 00:22:31,583 Is that evidence? 409 00:22:33,959 --> 00:22:35,291 Oh, here's something. 410 00:22:35,375 --> 00:22:36,583 Lauren had sent a text. 411 00:22:37,709 --> 00:22:38,834 "In our lives as women, we always have a back door. 412 00:22:38,917 --> 00:22:41,375 "Keeping the back door open gives us the wiggle room 413 00:22:41,458 --> 00:22:43,500 "to never have discipline or follow through. 414 00:22:43,583 --> 00:22:46,375 "We need to learn commitment, and there's no place in society to get it, 415 00:22:46,458 --> 00:22:48,875 because we can get out of anything. Everything." 416 00:22:48,959 --> 00:22:51,500 So, Lauren's saying... Oh, my God. 417 00:22:51,583 --> 00:22:53,208 Um... 418 00:22:53,291 --> 00:22:55,458 that we're weak, that we're princesses. 419 00:22:55,542 --> 00:22:56,917 That we have no character. 420 00:22:58,917 --> 00:23:02,875 We're sitting here with a bunch of princes and princesses. 421 00:23:02,959 --> 00:23:05,000 And we look at each other that way. 422 00:23:05,083 --> 00:23:07,875 The princesses look at the princes to go and slay the dragons, 423 00:23:07,959 --> 00:23:10,208 and the princes look at the princesses to, 424 00:23:10,291 --> 00:23:12,583 to be kept in a bubble and to look pretty, 425 00:23:12,667 --> 00:23:16,792 but never to really achieve anything. Much. 426 00:23:17,750 --> 00:23:20,375 But men have a type of hardship that women don't understand, 427 00:23:20,458 --> 00:23:23,166 and yes, women have a hardship that men don't understand. 428 00:23:24,125 --> 00:23:25,750 Edmondson: Really like in 2012, 429 00:23:25,834 --> 00:23:28,709 Jness opened up to men and women. 430 00:23:28,792 --> 00:23:31,750 This is going to be quite a wonderful forum. 431 00:23:31,834 --> 00:23:34,417 -(laughter) -Edmondson: It was pitched to us 432 00:23:34,500 --> 00:23:36,041 to understand the opposite se, and, like, 433 00:23:36,125 --> 00:23:38,208 why don't men and women get along? 434 00:23:38,291 --> 00:23:41,709 I want to ask you about a particular word. 435 00:23:41,792 --> 00:23:44,250 It's a word that is used against us 436 00:23:44,333 --> 00:23:47,583 in a sort of weaponized, mad-dogging sort of way. 437 00:23:47,667 --> 00:23:49,750 -And that word is "crazy." -Raniere: Mm-hmm. 438 00:23:49,834 --> 00:23:51,458 -Yes. -Edmondson: I feel like this word embodies 439 00:23:51,542 --> 00:23:53,792 a lot of what we're talking about here. 440 00:23:56,500 --> 00:23:58,250 Raniere: I was looking at 441 00:23:58,333 --> 00:24:01,417 what's known as the Stanford Prison project. 442 00:24:01,500 --> 00:24:03,750 They took what they thought were a very good, 443 00:24:03,834 --> 00:24:05,583 normal group of students, 444 00:24:05,667 --> 00:24:07,417 and they made half of them prison guards, 445 00:24:07,500 --> 00:24:08,959 and half of them prisoners. 446 00:24:09,041 --> 00:24:11,250 And they took the psych department basement 447 00:24:11,333 --> 00:24:12,750 in Stanford University 448 00:24:12,834 --> 00:24:15,375 and made it into a little mock prison. 449 00:24:15,458 --> 00:24:19,542 I have a video here from YouTube that describes this. 450 00:24:25,041 --> 00:24:27,291 Raniere: So, they started to play the roles, 451 00:24:27,375 --> 00:24:29,500 and the roles were mutually reinforcing. 452 00:24:29,583 --> 00:24:32,333 And the more they believed themselves to be prisoners, 453 00:24:32,417 --> 00:24:34,875 the more the guards believed themselves to be guards. 454 00:25:06,417 --> 00:25:09,166 ...you can't hold your emotions in check. 455 00:25:09,250 --> 00:25:11,333 Can't keep your emotions out of your decision. 456 00:25:11,417 --> 00:25:13,709 Do what you feel, as opposed to do what is right. 457 00:25:13,792 --> 00:25:15,458 From our perspective, 458 00:25:15,542 --> 00:25:17,166 you can't keep your feelings out of it. 459 00:25:17,250 --> 00:25:18,667 And on the other hand, 460 00:25:18,750 --> 00:25:21,709 us guys, we are oafs. 461 00:25:21,792 --> 00:25:23,959 We are brutish machines. 462 00:25:24,041 --> 00:25:26,166 We've been brought up to take those emotions, 463 00:25:26,250 --> 00:25:27,750 and bottle them. 464 00:25:28,417 --> 00:25:30,834 All of our emotions bottled so deep, 465 00:25:30,917 --> 00:25:33,250 most of us don't even recognize them. 466 00:25:37,917 --> 00:25:39,625 Ames: I grew up with four boys, 467 00:25:39,709 --> 00:25:42,083 and there's always pressure to perform and be the best. 468 00:25:42,959 --> 00:25:45,709 You know, I played sports, and sports fortified that right away, 469 00:25:45,792 --> 00:25:46,875 you know, and I played quarterback. 470 00:25:46,959 --> 00:25:48,834 When you play quarterback, you don't show emotion. 471 00:25:48,917 --> 00:25:50,834 You have to be Joe Cool. 472 00:25:51,792 --> 00:25:54,000 And I was pushing myself, 473 00:25:54,083 --> 00:25:56,834 but in a way that wasn't particularly nice to myself. 474 00:25:58,125 --> 00:26:03,375 And consequently, I felt like I was trained to hide my sensitivity. 475 00:26:03,458 --> 00:26:05,417 And that behavior was rewarde. 476 00:26:05,500 --> 00:26:07,333 And I just think that's a time bomb. 477 00:26:09,291 --> 00:26:11,667 So the Jness tracks, how they were sold to us, 478 00:26:11,750 --> 00:26:14,875 was using the strengths, generally speaking, of women... 479 00:26:14,959 --> 00:26:16,583 (Edmondson laughing) 480 00:26:16,667 --> 00:26:19,041 Helping men where they felt emotionally blocked, 481 00:26:19,125 --> 00:26:21,291 to feel safe in evolving. 482 00:27:03,333 --> 00:27:05,041 Ames: And so the idea is, 483 00:27:05,125 --> 00:27:06,709 if women could have more compassion 484 00:27:06,792 --> 00:27:08,667 for what it must be like for us, 485 00:27:08,750 --> 00:27:10,792 then men could have a deeper understanding 486 00:27:10,875 --> 00:27:13,125 of what it must be like to be women. 487 00:27:13,208 --> 00:27:15,500 You know, for example, what they struggle with. 488 00:27:15,583 --> 00:27:17,834 And what it's like to be suppressed by men. 489 00:27:17,917 --> 00:27:20,625 And then we could understand how we participate in doing i, 490 00:27:20,709 --> 00:27:23,333 develop a sensitivity to it, and then we can evolve it. 491 00:27:26,041 --> 00:27:28,625 I'm gonna apologize ahead of time 492 00:27:28,709 --> 00:27:30,291 to all the women, 493 00:27:30,375 --> 00:27:32,917 because I'm going to really... 494 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,458 say things that are inflammatory. 495 00:27:35,542 --> 00:27:37,250 Is everyone okay with that? 496 00:27:37,333 --> 00:27:39,333 -Group: Yes. -Now... 497 00:27:39,417 --> 00:27:41,291 All the women in here. 498 00:27:41,375 --> 00:27:43,750 Do you understand... 499 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,375 All right. I have to get in the right frame of mind for this. 500 00:27:50,792 --> 00:27:52,875 Do you understand why we hate you? 501 00:27:52,959 --> 00:27:56,125 Do you understand why you're obnoxious bothers? 502 00:27:56,208 --> 00:27:59,000 Why all your little whining and complaining, 503 00:27:59,083 --> 00:28:02,000 and all this, this garbage that you do 504 00:28:02,083 --> 00:28:04,166 and how much you, you think you do, 505 00:28:04,250 --> 00:28:06,291 and it's just all a bunch of crap. 506 00:28:06,375 --> 00:28:08,083 Male perspective. 507 00:28:08,917 --> 00:28:11,625 That's not saying that is true. 508 00:28:11,709 --> 00:28:13,667 I'm giving you the broad strokes of the thing. 509 00:28:13,750 --> 00:28:16,458 You're outrageously entitled, you're spoiled, 510 00:28:16,542 --> 00:28:20,208 and no, you don't earn shit. Do you get it? 511 00:28:20,291 --> 00:28:23,125 So, when you go and you put on those tears, 512 00:28:23,208 --> 00:28:27,542 there's part of us that absolutely hates you. 513 00:28:27,625 --> 00:28:30,458 You are the source of all our punishment. 514 00:28:30,542 --> 00:28:32,875 You are the source of all our liability. 515 00:28:32,959 --> 00:28:35,208 You are the source of all our pain. 516 00:28:35,291 --> 00:28:37,709 You're the source of all our aloneness. 517 00:28:37,792 --> 00:28:39,709 Everything that we're about, 518 00:28:39,792 --> 00:28:42,625 you go against by going, "Wah, wah, wah, wah." 519 00:28:44,083 --> 00:28:46,500 Deep inside all men, when you cry, 520 00:28:46,583 --> 00:28:48,375 we remember back, 521 00:28:48,458 --> 00:28:50,834 part of us, even if it's not consciously, I believe, 522 00:28:50,917 --> 00:28:53,875 subconsciously, the time when we were a little boy, 523 00:28:53,959 --> 00:28:56,834 and we just wanted Mommy's approval. 524 00:28:56,917 --> 00:28:58,709 We just wanted to be held. 525 00:28:58,792 --> 00:29:00,917 We wanted to be taken care of. 526 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,959 We just wanted love. 527 00:29:04,625 --> 00:29:06,542 Do you understand, though, 528 00:29:06,625 --> 00:29:08,750 that that's not allowed to little boys? 529 00:29:10,083 --> 00:29:12,917 Men, we take women's power away, 530 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,125 and we hold them as prisoners. 531 00:29:15,208 --> 00:29:18,208 Can any woman here say how she holds 532 00:29:18,291 --> 00:29:19,625 men as prisoners? 533 00:29:19,709 --> 00:29:21,375 Do you know what the force is? 534 00:29:24,500 --> 00:29:26,750 -(participant speaking) -Yes. 535 00:29:26,834 --> 00:29:28,792 -And it's control through... -(participant 2 speaking) 536 00:29:28,875 --> 00:29:30,250 Sex. 537 00:29:30,333 --> 00:29:31,917 'Cause the reason why you, 538 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:33,875 you hold on to the sex thing 539 00:29:33,959 --> 00:29:37,375 is it's the only way you believe you can survive. 540 00:29:39,333 --> 00:29:41,208 Edmondson: We thought it was helping us 541 00:29:41,291 --> 00:29:43,583 become more aware of the things we do as women 542 00:29:43,667 --> 00:29:45,667 that don't serve us. 543 00:29:48,333 --> 00:29:50,208 Piesse: The more we went into this curriculum, 544 00:29:50,291 --> 00:29:52,208 it became really misogynistic. 545 00:29:52,291 --> 00:29:55,333 But, like, still in the name of empowerment. 546 00:30:14,083 --> 00:30:16,000 Crowd: Woo! 547 00:30:24,333 --> 00:30:26,083 Have you seen my boots? 548 00:30:41,625 --> 00:30:43,125 Raniere: Mm-hmm. 549 00:31:01,583 --> 00:31:03,041 Raniere: But no, it's the-- 550 00:31:04,417 --> 00:31:05,625 Raniere: Yeah! 551 00:31:36,959 --> 00:31:38,250 Raniere: Mm-hmm. 552 00:31:45,834 --> 00:31:48,333 -Edmondson: No-- -(Raniere continues) 553 00:31:59,834 --> 00:32:01,625 (audience chuckling uncomfortably) 554 00:32:04,542 --> 00:32:06,125 -Raniere: Mm-hmm. -Edmondson: Um... 555 00:32:35,834 --> 00:32:37,208 ...if I do. 556 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,041 (crowd laughing) 557 00:32:56,542 --> 00:32:59,458 Edmondson: All of these things, if you assume good intent, 558 00:32:59,542 --> 00:33:01,500 may be weird, may be extreme. 559 00:33:01,583 --> 00:33:04,250 But it's always to help you grow. 560 00:33:05,417 --> 00:33:08,083 I didn't understand what I was doing, 561 00:33:08,166 --> 00:33:10,000 actually, to undermine myself. 562 00:33:10,083 --> 00:33:12,125 I've never experienced that kind of strength 563 00:33:12,208 --> 00:33:13,917 and solidity in myself as a woman. 564 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:15,917 I w-- I wish it for all my women friends. 565 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:17,583 It's why I'm such an advocate for Jness, 566 00:33:17,667 --> 00:33:19,917 and I can't speak more highly of it. 567 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:21,959 Yeah, and it's great, 'cause I feel not only 568 00:33:22,041 --> 00:33:24,333 that can I appreciate him more, 569 00:33:24,417 --> 00:33:26,458 but I feel so much more appreciated. 570 00:33:26,542 --> 00:33:29,083 Like, just, it-- It's so much more loving. 571 00:33:31,750 --> 00:33:33,333 Edmondson: As soon as you recognize 572 00:33:33,417 --> 00:33:34,834 that the person masterminding it 573 00:33:34,917 --> 00:33:36,333 has bad intent, 574 00:33:36,417 --> 00:33:39,291 and is manipulating women for his own pleasure, 575 00:33:39,375 --> 00:33:40,917 everything changes. 576 00:33:43,959 --> 00:33:46,792 When I went into the Jness tracks, I carried with me 577 00:33:46,875 --> 00:33:48,667 years and years and years and years and years 578 00:33:48,750 --> 00:33:50,625 wrought with insecurity and confusion, 579 00:33:50,709 --> 00:33:54,333 covered up by a whole heck of a lot of ego and pride. 580 00:33:54,417 --> 00:33:58,458 I've left the Jness tracks with a clearer sense of me. 581 00:33:58,542 --> 00:34:00,959 A true experience of success. 582 00:34:01,041 --> 00:34:05,291 And a lot of hope for my relationships in the future. 583 00:34:11,750 --> 00:34:14,333 Edmondson: Allie and I were close. 584 00:34:14,417 --> 00:34:16,208 And then she moved to Albany. 585 00:34:16,291 --> 00:34:18,667 She, you know, put her career on hold. 586 00:34:20,458 --> 00:34:24,500 I think she thought that that was where she was gonna get the growth. 587 00:34:26,500 --> 00:34:28,166 And Keith was gonna help her. 588 00:34:31,625 --> 00:34:34,750 Man: Welcome to "Family Feud," ESP style! 589 00:34:34,834 --> 00:34:37,709 -(crowd cheering) -Edmondson: She had had a lot of success 590 00:34:37,792 --> 00:34:39,375 early on as a child actor, 591 00:34:39,458 --> 00:34:42,458 and I think, flaunted that. She was very self-assured. 592 00:34:44,792 --> 00:34:48,083 If somebody was prideful or arrogant, 593 00:34:48,166 --> 00:34:50,542 he would do whatever he thought was necessary 594 00:34:50,625 --> 00:34:52,333 to break them of that. 595 00:34:57,041 --> 00:34:58,291 (sniffles) 596 00:34:58,375 --> 00:35:00,250 We are humble. 597 00:35:00,333 --> 00:35:02,250 (pained laughter) 598 00:35:02,333 --> 00:35:04,208 (voice shaking): And without pride. 599 00:35:04,542 --> 00:35:07,125 (Raniere speaking) 600 00:35:16,333 --> 00:35:18,291 (exhales, sniffles) 601 00:35:18,375 --> 00:35:20,875 Edmondson: And I think once he broke someone's pride, 602 00:35:20,959 --> 00:35:22,792 they were more susceptible to being molded 603 00:35:22,875 --> 00:35:25,375 into whoever he wanted them to be. 604 00:35:25,458 --> 00:35:30,291 Love comes not from the receiving. 605 00:35:30,375 --> 00:35:32,625 It comes from the giving. 606 00:35:32,709 --> 00:35:35,291 It comes from the sacrifice and the pain. 607 00:35:35,375 --> 00:35:37,500 -That's how we know it. -Mm-hmm. 608 00:35:37,583 --> 00:35:41,000 That isn't to say it doesn't exist in joy and in happiness. 609 00:35:41,083 --> 00:35:43,458 -But we know it through our pain. -Mm-hmm. 610 00:35:43,542 --> 00:35:45,500 And if you have a fear of pain, 611 00:35:45,583 --> 00:35:47,917 you have a fear of knowing your own love. 612 00:35:48,417 --> 00:35:51,667 We experience our love not needing return. 613 00:35:51,750 --> 00:35:53,875 We find love is its own gift. 614 00:35:58,041 --> 00:36:01,792 And the great pain experienced through love... 615 00:36:01,875 --> 00:36:04,917 Mm. Actually deep joy. 616 00:36:07,834 --> 00:36:11,834 She just went straight in. 617 00:36:11,917 --> 00:36:13,917 We never-- And never came back. 618 00:36:18,417 --> 00:36:20,000 Vicente: Come on, get in here. 619 00:36:20,083 --> 00:36:22,834 Camera's rolling. Camera's rolling. 620 00:36:22,917 --> 00:36:25,500 Edmondson: I don't really have a sense of, like, the decline, 621 00:36:25,583 --> 00:36:27,166 but I remember a couple key moments, 622 00:36:27,250 --> 00:36:28,875 like asking her to come to our wedding, 623 00:36:28,959 --> 00:36:30,500 and she said that she had to check with Keith. 624 00:36:30,583 --> 00:36:33,291 And I was like, "Is he, is he your dad? 625 00:36:33,375 --> 00:36:34,875 Like, why do you, why do you need to check with him?" 626 00:36:34,959 --> 00:36:37,792 And she's like, "Oh, you know, I make a lot of impulsive decisions, 627 00:36:37,875 --> 00:36:40,417 and I told him that I would check with him before I ever leave home." 628 00:36:42,959 --> 00:36:45,250 When we left, I did text her. 629 00:36:45,709 --> 00:36:47,792 "Listen, if you ever want to talk, call me. 630 00:36:47,875 --> 00:36:50,000 "I'm not your enemy. I won't punish you or blame you. 631 00:36:50,083 --> 00:36:52,583 "I heard you're gonna take the hit for Keith for DOS. 632 00:36:52,667 --> 00:36:54,250 "We all know that's a load of shit. 633 00:36:54,333 --> 00:36:55,709 "I have your back on this, Allie. 634 00:36:55,792 --> 00:36:57,208 "Stop with the penance. Stop with the lies. 635 00:36:57,291 --> 00:37:00,000 I love you and care for you, and I'll always be here for you." 636 00:37:03,458 --> 00:37:05,291 (car door closing) 637 00:37:06,250 --> 00:37:07,834 (car alarm beeps) 638 00:37:09,250 --> 00:37:10,834 Vicente: Catherine's coming. 639 00:37:12,750 --> 00:37:15,667 Oxenberg: Okay, so now they've expanded the investigation. 640 00:37:15,750 --> 00:37:17,583 They've expanded their team 641 00:37:17,667 --> 00:37:21,125 of people whose-- the task force is now bigger. 642 00:37:23,792 --> 00:37:26,041 Vicente: (laughing) It is. 643 00:37:26,125 --> 00:37:27,917 -Because this is the only place-- -(producer speaking) 644 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,542 -Vicente: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. -We are Deep Throating it. 645 00:37:30,625 --> 00:37:32,792 (all laughing) 646 00:37:33,959 --> 00:37:35,875 Oxenberg: The person that I spoke with who is 647 00:37:35,959 --> 00:37:37,583 one of their star witnesses, 648 00:37:37,667 --> 00:37:39,375 she kept stressing 649 00:37:39,458 --> 00:37:42,208 that it was-- that they kept questioning her 650 00:37:42,291 --> 00:37:44,250 about Allison Mack's involvement. 651 00:37:44,333 --> 00:37:46,083 They kept ma-- They kept asking her, 652 00:37:46,166 --> 00:37:48,417 "Well, do you think Allison instigated this, 653 00:37:48,500 --> 00:37:50,375 "or was this Keith who asked-- 654 00:37:50,458 --> 00:37:52,250 you know, was Keith--" 655 00:37:52,333 --> 00:37:54,041 -That was very important to them. -Piesse: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 656 00:37:54,125 --> 00:37:56,000 And it was a lot of stress on her. 657 00:37:56,500 --> 00:37:59,583 I, I swear to God, I think Allison is going to be arrested 658 00:37:59,667 --> 00:38:00,750 for sex trafficking. 659 00:38:00,834 --> 00:38:04,000 ♪♪ 660 00:38:10,792 --> 00:38:14,208 Edmondson: I'm heading to New York City to testify for the FBI. 661 00:38:14,542 --> 00:38:17,667 I didn't sleep. I think I was sort of... 662 00:38:17,750 --> 00:38:19,583 in my head, kind of... 663 00:38:19,667 --> 00:38:21,709 hashing out what's about to happen. 664 00:38:22,875 --> 00:38:24,417 I'm the only one with a high rank-- 665 00:38:24,500 --> 00:38:26,834 that was a high rank and was in DOS, so... 666 00:38:27,667 --> 00:38:30,792 That's a unique situation. I have lots to tell them about how the company was run. 667 00:38:30,875 --> 00:38:32,917 I have lots to tell them about, 668 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,000 you know, things that Lauren said. 669 00:38:36,542 --> 00:38:39,500 As much as I see her as a victim of Keith, 670 00:38:39,583 --> 00:38:43,250 I also think that what she's done is awful. 671 00:38:44,875 --> 00:38:47,667 -(indistinct announcement over PA) -(Edmondson exhales) 672 00:39:14,041 --> 00:39:15,917 Ames: Society of Protectors. 673 00:39:16,792 --> 00:39:19,166 But I didn't hold the leader accountable. 674 00:39:19,250 --> 00:39:21,834 I didn't call him out on his shit. 675 00:39:21,917 --> 00:39:24,000 I got played, and I helped this guy build 676 00:39:24,083 --> 00:39:26,250 whatever the shit he was building around him. 677 00:39:27,250 --> 00:39:29,875 And I was part of that, and I was complicit to it. 678 00:39:43,625 --> 00:39:45,917 -Ames: No. -Vicente: Okay. I still have 'em. 679 00:39:46,667 --> 00:39:49,291 At the time, I felt purposeful. 680 00:39:50,125 --> 00:39:52,750 But afterwards, I thought, "What a fucking waste of my life." You know? 681 00:39:52,834 --> 00:39:54,875 -Well, it was always nebulous. It was a concept. -To build obedience. 682 00:39:54,959 --> 00:39:57,000 -Right. -You're enrolling people into a concept, 683 00:39:57,083 --> 00:39:59,750 -and asking them to have blind faith in something. -Right. 684 00:39:59,834 --> 00:40:03,375 But for whatever reason, that was intriguing to me. 685 00:40:03,458 --> 00:40:07,250 And the opportunity of like, "Dude, I can lead this. This is in my wheelhouse." 686 00:40:07,917 --> 00:40:10,667 -And it's fuckin' stupid. It's embarrassing. -Yeah. 687 00:40:10,750 --> 00:40:13,250 He used all of our reputations to shore himself up. 688 00:40:13,333 --> 00:40:15,041 'Cause really, he's, he's got nothing. 689 00:40:15,125 --> 00:40:17,667 He was a judo champion at age 11. 690 00:40:22,375 --> 00:40:25,291 Come on, Mark. Judo champion. Age 11. 691 00:40:26,041 --> 00:40:27,834 I bought it, though. 692 00:40:28,375 --> 00:40:30,083 He can roll around the floor 693 00:40:30,166 --> 00:40:31,625 and pretend to do judo. 694 00:40:31,709 --> 00:40:33,083 And he can hit a volleyball. 695 00:40:33,166 --> 00:40:34,959 -And he can head-fuck you. -Listen... 696 00:40:35,041 --> 00:40:38,917 To think that we were unwittingly a part of some sort of abuse... 697 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:40,583 -That's the thing I struggle with. -Yeah. 698 00:40:40,667 --> 00:40:42,583 And it's not that I-- it poisoned me, 699 00:40:42,667 --> 00:40:43,792 -because I am a good man. -Mm-hmm. 700 00:40:43,875 --> 00:40:45,583 -Just messes me up. -Don't you want me to-- Can I... 701 00:40:45,667 --> 00:40:46,917 Can I put it in something that-- 702 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:48,625 -Reframe it for you? -Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 703 00:40:50,333 --> 00:40:52,458 The arrogance, pride, 704 00:40:52,542 --> 00:40:54,250 and the sanctimonious nature 705 00:40:54,333 --> 00:40:55,333 in which we went about 706 00:40:55,417 --> 00:40:57,375 -what we thought we were building... -Mm-hmm. 707 00:40:57,458 --> 00:41:00,083 Our pride is the thing that helped facilitate it. 708 00:41:00,166 --> 00:41:03,375 And, and, and we fucked up. 709 00:41:04,041 --> 00:41:05,917 Boldface fucking lying. 710 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,000 -Thinking you're doing something noble. -Mm-hmm. 711 00:41:08,083 --> 00:41:09,917 So... 712 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:11,125 (clears throat) 713 00:41:11,208 --> 00:41:13,125 I don't know how you un-fuck your head 714 00:41:13,208 --> 00:41:15,291 from doing stuff like-- you know. 715 00:41:15,375 --> 00:41:18,083 I'm having a hard time un-fucking my head. 716 00:41:19,208 --> 00:41:20,959 I trained people 717 00:41:21,041 --> 00:41:23,125 to heil Hitler. 718 00:41:23,208 --> 00:41:25,542 How do you un-ring that bell in your own psyche? 719 00:41:29,834 --> 00:41:31,834 (cawing) 720 00:41:43,959 --> 00:41:47,917 So abuse is, is a made-up human construct. 721 00:41:48,583 --> 00:41:52,875 And a lot of times, the screaming of abuse is abuse in itself. 722 00:41:53,583 --> 00:41:56,208 How we illustrate human nobility, 723 00:41:56,291 --> 00:41:57,875 how we are noble, 724 00:41:57,959 --> 00:42:02,291 is to get rid of the concept of victim, like that. 725 00:42:02,375 --> 00:42:05,041 -Woman: Right. -There are things that are terribly wrongful. 726 00:42:06,875 --> 00:42:08,625 But the person receiving it 727 00:42:08,709 --> 00:42:12,625 only decides they're a victim if they accept that. 728 00:42:12,709 --> 00:42:15,583 ♪♪ 729 00:42:16,750 --> 00:42:18,458 Vicente: Keith said to me one day, he said, 730 00:42:18,542 --> 00:42:22,166 "Uh, the women would like to do SOP." And I'm like, "What?" 731 00:42:22,250 --> 00:42:24,667 And Raniere would say, "Look, you know, 732 00:42:24,750 --> 00:42:27,709 they do need to know what it's like to grow up like a little boy." 733 00:42:27,792 --> 00:42:30,041 The idea we were being sold was, 734 00:42:30,125 --> 00:42:32,208 you need to walk in each other's shoes 735 00:42:32,291 --> 00:42:35,083 to truly respect and love each other. 736 00:42:35,625 --> 00:42:37,208 Raniere: I'm asking the women first. 737 00:42:37,291 --> 00:42:39,166 How bad do you want this to be? 738 00:42:39,250 --> 00:42:40,834 (women chattering) 739 00:42:40,917 --> 00:42:43,667 No, I mean-- This... There's gonna be... 740 00:42:43,750 --> 00:42:45,333 Women: Rough. Rough. 741 00:42:45,417 --> 00:42:46,625 Rough? 742 00:42:47,834 --> 00:42:50,542 Piesse: And the women signed up for SOP complete, 743 00:42:50,625 --> 00:42:53,417 knowing that it was gonna be a rough run. 744 00:42:54,917 --> 00:42:58,917 But I thought that it was something that would help me 745 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:00,959 understand men more. 746 00:43:01,917 --> 00:43:04,625 In this position, you do a wall sit. 747 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:08,667 And get ready. 748 00:43:09,625 --> 00:43:11,000 And go. 749 00:43:12,500 --> 00:43:14,625 Edmondson: Keith always taught us that men get their pride broken 750 00:43:14,709 --> 00:43:17,458 you know, in the, um, locker room or on the sports field. 751 00:43:17,542 --> 00:43:20,583 And women somehow get away with not being humiliated, 752 00:43:20,667 --> 00:43:23,458 which is what makes them so prideful and princess-y, 753 00:43:23,542 --> 00:43:25,291 and stuff like this. 754 00:43:25,375 --> 00:43:27,291 I mean, essentially, we were subjecting ourselves 755 00:43:27,375 --> 00:43:29,417 to the men being in charge. 756 00:43:29,500 --> 00:43:32,709 Not unlike the Stanford Prison Experiment. 757 00:43:33,542 --> 00:43:37,041 Let's put people in these, in these roles and see where it will go. 758 00:43:40,500 --> 00:43:42,083 Raniere: When a man looks at you, 759 00:43:42,166 --> 00:43:44,792 all of you women, what we see is a bunch of little kids. 760 00:43:44,875 --> 00:43:46,166 We see little kindergarteners. 761 00:43:46,250 --> 00:43:50,125 And when you try to do something physical, it's cute as hell. 762 00:43:50,208 --> 00:43:52,166 Can you come up a second? Just wanted to... 763 00:43:52,250 --> 00:43:55,291 to demonstrate one thing. 'Cause men are always, as I said, sussing out-- 764 00:43:55,375 --> 00:43:57,125 you know, are we-- 765 00:43:57,208 --> 00:43:59,542 (yells loudly) She's pretty good! 766 00:44:00,208 --> 00:44:01,542 But she went... 767 00:44:02,375 --> 00:44:04,417 That's good. You do that back to me. 768 00:44:04,500 --> 00:44:05,792 (yells) 769 00:44:05,875 --> 00:44:07,250 (imitating weak yell) 770 00:44:07,333 --> 00:44:09,250 No, really. (yells) 771 00:44:09,333 --> 00:44:10,959 (screams) 772 00:44:11,041 --> 00:44:12,250 Do it. 773 00:44:12,333 --> 00:44:13,291 (yells) 774 00:44:13,375 --> 00:44:14,667 I don't take you seriously. 775 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:17,542 (woman laughing softly) 776 00:44:18,750 --> 00:44:20,458 Edmondson: We didn't want to be princess-y. 777 00:44:20,542 --> 00:44:22,166 We wanted to be strong. 778 00:44:37,542 --> 00:44:38,625 Man: Yeah. 779 00:44:40,709 --> 00:44:43,333 -Woman: Yeah. -(man speaking) 780 00:44:43,417 --> 00:44:44,750 Woman: Yeah. 781 00:44:45,208 --> 00:44:47,000 Raniere: When you're a little boy, 782 00:44:47,083 --> 00:44:49,000 if you're weak, you get picked on, 783 00:44:50,709 --> 00:44:52,792 and you get picked on more, and if you tell, 784 00:44:52,875 --> 00:44:54,625 you get picked on more. 785 00:44:55,125 --> 00:44:59,208 Man: So remember, this is to help. 786 00:45:02,625 --> 00:45:05,000 Edmondson: I got brought up to the front of the room 787 00:45:05,083 --> 00:45:08,625 and humiliated with a prize ribbon. 788 00:45:08,709 --> 00:45:11,166 "Ms. Edmondson: Best Display of Ass," 789 00:45:11,250 --> 00:45:13,458 because my jeans were too tight. 790 00:45:18,458 --> 00:45:21,417 Piesse: We were basically punished 791 00:45:21,500 --> 00:45:23,834 in all kinds of ways. Like, for example, 792 00:45:23,917 --> 00:45:27,417 I remember sitting in a group with a lot of women and one man. 793 00:45:27,500 --> 00:45:31,875 And he basically would fault you. 794 00:45:31,959 --> 00:45:35,291 Like, give you negative points for anything. 795 00:45:41,250 --> 00:45:42,458 (man speaking) 796 00:45:44,125 --> 00:45:45,834 (men laughing) 797 00:45:45,917 --> 00:45:47,375 Piesse: And the thinking was that 798 00:45:47,458 --> 00:45:49,583 this is what women do to men all day long. 799 00:45:49,667 --> 00:45:51,667 Complaining and nitpicking. 800 00:46:03,166 --> 00:46:05,750 Raniere: Women, you have to learn to yield. 801 00:46:05,834 --> 00:46:07,417 When you're a little boy, 802 00:46:07,500 --> 00:46:08,917 a matter of fact, you yield all the time. 803 00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,250 You yield to adults, you yield to women, 804 00:46:11,333 --> 00:46:13,000 and you yield to all little girls. 805 00:46:13,500 --> 00:46:15,583 Piesse: For some of the men, I think it was a power trip. 806 00:46:15,667 --> 00:46:16,834 They enjoyed it. 807 00:46:28,667 --> 00:46:31,834 Piesse: But for a lot of the men, I know it was hard for them. 808 00:46:47,041 --> 00:46:49,250 Vicente: I can argue that I wasn't an asshole 809 00:46:49,333 --> 00:46:51,625 like some of the other guys. 810 00:46:51,709 --> 00:46:53,500 But I showed up. 811 00:46:54,083 --> 00:46:56,208 And that's a hard pill to swallow. 812 00:47:08,208 --> 00:47:11,834 And I would talk to, to Keith about it. 813 00:47:36,583 --> 00:47:38,792 (indistinct chatter) 814 00:47:38,875 --> 00:47:40,834 Vicente: And he goes, "Yeah, but... 815 00:47:40,917 --> 00:47:43,291 "You... You guys are... 816 00:47:43,375 --> 00:47:46,417 You guys aren't willing to do what's required to help people." 817 00:47:58,500 --> 00:48:00,542 Vicente: He'd say, "It's your own weakness. 818 00:48:00,625 --> 00:48:03,333 "You identify yourself as a little boy. 819 00:48:04,834 --> 00:48:06,250 "Grow up. 820 00:48:07,166 --> 00:48:08,458 Grow up." 821 00:48:09,583 --> 00:48:13,208 And the reason we trusted his bizarre experiment, 822 00:48:13,291 --> 00:48:16,083 and the reason it's so important for the FBI to understand, 823 00:48:16,166 --> 00:48:19,583 is because he showed us all these things, 824 00:48:19,667 --> 00:48:21,333 like the Stanford Prison Experiment. 825 00:48:21,417 --> 00:48:22,750 Guard: (on video) So, just get used to it. 826 00:48:22,834 --> 00:48:24,208 Vicente: And then it was sort of like, 827 00:48:24,291 --> 00:48:27,250 "Okay, well, we don't want to have those bad things happen. 828 00:48:27,333 --> 00:48:29,917 Don't get lost, you know, in the roles." 829 00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:34,041 And yet, he would demand that we play these roles 830 00:48:34,125 --> 00:48:36,083 that were horrible. 831 00:48:37,625 --> 00:48:40,250 Edmondson: I think this was all his way of seeing 832 00:48:40,333 --> 00:48:43,250 how much power does he have with men and women. 833 00:48:43,333 --> 00:48:45,250 Who's willing to do what? 834 00:48:45,333 --> 00:48:48,750 Who's willing to put themselvs in uncomfortable situations, 835 00:48:48,834 --> 00:48:50,500 so he could take advantage of it. 836 00:48:52,542 --> 00:48:54,917 Raniere: Women, I've already determined 837 00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:56,792 you won't be able to handle 1. 838 00:48:56,875 --> 00:48:59,792 You want me to tell you what 10 is like? 839 00:48:59,875 --> 00:49:01,625 -Women: Yes. -Okay. 840 00:49:01,709 --> 00:49:04,792 Let's say you wore an extra tight shirt or whatever. 841 00:49:04,875 --> 00:49:07,125 Like, uh, there's a woman here, let's say, 842 00:49:07,208 --> 00:49:08,625 who has her breasts showing. 843 00:49:08,709 --> 00:49:11,000 All the guys will grab them. 844 00:49:13,959 --> 00:49:16,083 -Woman: That's a 10? -That's a 10. 845 00:49:16,166 --> 00:49:18,166 That's what happens to little boys. 846 00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:37,375 (thunder rumbling) 847 00:49:44,667 --> 00:49:46,000 Troy: Daddy! 848 00:49:58,041 --> 00:50:00,166 Piesse: It's been so long! 849 00:50:00,250 --> 00:50:02,750 -Fuji. Cutie. -Oh, I missed you, Fuji! 850 00:50:02,834 --> 00:50:04,041 -What a cutie. -Yeah. 851 00:50:04,125 --> 00:50:05,333 -Come on! -Vicente: Come on. 852 00:50:05,417 --> 00:50:07,000 Oxenberg: Fuji! Away! Away, dog. 853 00:50:07,083 --> 00:50:08,417 -Away! -Vicente: Come on, Fuji! 854 00:50:10,250 --> 00:50:12,208 Oxenberg: The first time I went to Albany, 855 00:50:12,291 --> 00:50:15,458 Mark and Bonnie generously hosted us. 856 00:50:15,542 --> 00:50:18,458 So I saw, because they left the door open, that there was like-- 857 00:50:18,542 --> 00:50:21,333 I, you would have thought, like, a Great Dane's bed 858 00:50:21,417 --> 00:50:23,834 -next to, next to the marital bed on the floor. -(laughs) Come on! 859 00:50:23,917 --> 00:50:26,667 -It wasn't a dog's bed. -Well, it's like the size of a dog's bed. 860 00:50:26,750 --> 00:50:29,875 Like a large dog, that was like, on the floor. 861 00:50:29,959 --> 00:50:32,375 And I thought to myself, I don't remember them having a pet. 862 00:50:32,458 --> 00:50:35,417 -(laughing) -Who the fuck is sleeping on the floor? 863 00:50:37,458 --> 00:50:38,834 Oxenberg: Did I ask you? 864 00:50:38,917 --> 00:50:39,834 Piesse: I don't remember, 865 00:50:39,917 --> 00:50:41,166 but I do remember that I was doing that. 866 00:50:41,250 --> 00:50:42,834 She did admit it to me that she was-- 867 00:50:42,917 --> 00:50:44,834 It's not an admission. Like, I was probably proud of it. 868 00:50:44,917 --> 00:50:47,417 Like, yeah, I'm trying to, like, give myself some discipline. 869 00:50:47,500 --> 00:50:49,333 'Cause I, I spoke out against Mark, 870 00:50:49,417 --> 00:50:51,041 so I'm gonna sleep on the floor for three days. 871 00:50:51,125 --> 00:50:54,166 (women laughing) 872 00:50:54,250 --> 00:50:56,208 -That you would be-- -To be honest, 873 00:50:56,291 --> 00:50:59,041 -I was... -sleeping on the floor next to your husband. 874 00:50:59,125 --> 00:51:00,917 I'm like, oh, my God. This is so messed up. 875 00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:02,709 -I didn't like it, but I had to. -I just-- I won't-- 876 00:51:02,792 --> 00:51:05,250 I will remember not to become part of this community. 877 00:51:05,333 --> 00:51:06,917 (laughter) 878 00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:08,583 Piesse: I just thought there was something wrong with me 879 00:51:08,667 --> 00:51:10,125 that I didn't like penance. 880 00:51:12,959 --> 00:51:15,667 Vicente: You okay? Yeah, she's not okay, 881 00:51:15,750 --> 00:51:17,375 -by the way. -Piesse: Yeah, I'm not feeling great right now. 882 00:51:17,458 --> 00:51:18,667 Vicente: She's being re-traumatized. I can feel it right now. 883 00:51:18,750 --> 00:51:19,875 -I'm not. -Vicente: So this is like, 884 00:51:19,959 --> 00:51:21,959 -a super bad idea right this second. -That's true. 885 00:51:22,500 --> 00:51:25,875 Vicente: It's so easy to, to shame. You know? 886 00:51:25,959 --> 00:51:28,375 We're not at the point we can make fun of these things. 887 00:51:28,458 --> 00:51:29,542 We're not. 888 00:51:30,709 --> 00:51:33,250 It's not funny that she made a bed on the floor. 889 00:51:33,333 --> 00:51:35,000 That's not funny for me. 890 00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:37,583 'Cause I'm the guy that sat there and thought, 891 00:51:37,667 --> 00:51:39,750 "Well, I guess that's a good idea. I guess. 892 00:51:39,834 --> 00:51:41,083 "I mean, my wife's sleeping on the floor. 893 00:51:41,166 --> 00:51:43,917 I mean, I don't know. Maybe that's-- I guess that's good." 894 00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:46,250 What, am I fuckin' stupid? 895 00:51:46,333 --> 00:51:48,458 Of course I'm fuckin' stupid! 896 00:51:48,542 --> 00:51:50,166 I know that already. 897 00:51:52,500 --> 00:51:54,458 I'm okay right now, just so you know. 898 00:51:54,542 --> 00:51:56,792 -But thank you. -Vicente: I understand, but I'm not. 899 00:51:57,458 --> 00:52:00,750 We're not fucked up, strange monsters 900 00:52:00,834 --> 00:52:03,709 that made bad choices our whole life. 901 00:52:03,792 --> 00:52:06,625 We didn't join a cult. 902 00:52:06,709 --> 00:52:09,625 Nobody joins a cult. 903 00:52:09,709 --> 00:52:11,417 Nobody. 904 00:52:11,500 --> 00:52:13,500 They join a good thing. 905 00:52:13,583 --> 00:52:15,750 And then they realize they were fucked. 906 00:52:17,875 --> 00:52:19,792 Nobody's saying, "Yes! Let me go and join 907 00:52:19,875 --> 00:52:22,458 "this stupid, fuckin' thing that's gonna destroy my life, 908 00:52:22,542 --> 00:52:23,834 and everybody I love." 909 00:52:23,917 --> 00:52:25,583 Nobody does that! 910 00:52:27,208 --> 00:52:29,250 (sobbing softly) 911 00:52:33,041 --> 00:52:35,667 I'm hurting so fuckin' bad. 912 00:52:35,750 --> 00:52:37,458 I wanted to be a good guy. 913 00:52:37,542 --> 00:52:39,083 I still wanna be-- I don't give-- 914 00:52:39,166 --> 00:52:41,583 I don't know what a good guy is anymore. I have no idea. 915 00:52:42,875 --> 00:52:46,625 I helped create a men's movement, 916 00:52:46,709 --> 00:52:49,875 and those techniques were used against all these girls. 917 00:52:55,291 --> 00:52:57,250 Raniere: Do you women want respect? 918 00:52:59,083 --> 00:53:00,667 How are you gonna get respect being, 919 00:53:00,750 --> 00:53:02,709 "Gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme"? 920 00:53:03,583 --> 00:53:06,333 When all of the guys perceive themselves as, 921 00:53:06,417 --> 00:53:07,583 we're lifting the weight! 922 00:53:07,667 --> 00:53:09,625 And you say, "Well, look, I go out there and I do this, 923 00:53:09,709 --> 00:53:11,875 and I do that and (babbling). I could be just as good as you." 924 00:53:11,959 --> 00:53:13,250 No, you can't. 925 00:53:14,542 --> 00:53:17,291 You can't be as good as men. You know why? 926 00:53:20,917 --> 00:53:22,417 We won't let you. 927 00:53:52,625 --> 00:53:54,458 (Mack sobbing) 928 00:54:34,041 --> 00:54:35,542 Edmondson: Isn't that crazy? 929 00:54:35,625 --> 00:54:37,458 That one's almost gone. 930 00:54:37,542 --> 00:54:39,417 But that one was-- This was always very thin. 931 00:54:39,500 --> 00:54:41,417 Like even on the day of, it was thinner. 932 00:54:41,500 --> 00:54:42,917 So I don't think that's gonna get to that, 933 00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:44,417 but at least it'll get flat. 934 00:54:44,500 --> 00:54:46,542 It's more flat. It's not as keloid. 935 00:54:46,625 --> 00:54:49,625 This should be an ad for Dermatix. 936 00:54:49,709 --> 00:54:53,250 How to get rid of your sex cult scar brand. 937 00:54:53,333 --> 00:54:54,875 Sex cult brand scar. 938 00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:56,750 How to get rid of your sex "crult"-- 939 00:54:56,834 --> 00:54:58,792 Would you like to get rid of your sex cult brand scar? 940 00:54:58,875 --> 00:55:00,291 This is how. 941 00:55:00,375 --> 00:55:01,792 With Dermatix. 942 00:55:01,875 --> 00:55:04,500 Just a few motions every day. Rubbing it in... 943 00:55:04,583 --> 00:55:07,291 makes that sex cult brand scar go away, 944 00:55:07,375 --> 00:55:09,125 just easily over time. 945 00:55:09,208 --> 00:55:11,542 Then I just rub the shit out of it. (chuckling) 946 00:55:12,583 --> 00:55:14,792 This will capture what Sarah's life is like. 947 00:55:14,875 --> 00:55:17,500 (chuckling) 948 00:55:22,208 --> 00:55:25,000 I just had my meeting with the FBI today. 949 00:55:25,083 --> 00:55:29,875 I gave them all my evidence on Lauren, Keith, DOS, everything. 950 00:55:30,709 --> 00:55:32,750 So relieved it's over. 951 00:55:33,500 --> 00:55:34,959 ♪ Pick it up ♪ 952 00:55:35,041 --> 00:55:37,959 ♪ Pick it all up ♪ 953 00:55:38,041 --> 00:55:42,083 ♪ And start again ♪ 954 00:55:45,417 --> 00:55:47,250 (camera shutter clicking) 955 00:55:48,125 --> 00:55:50,208 ♪ You've got a second chance ♪ 956 00:55:50,291 --> 00:55:54,166 ♪ You could go home, escape it all ♪ 957 00:55:54,250 --> 00:55:57,250 ♪ It's just irrelevant ♪ 958 00:56:01,583 --> 00:56:04,458 ♪ It's just medicine ♪ 959 00:56:04,542 --> 00:56:08,041 Vicente: The shame in our marriage is so profound, because... 960 00:56:08,125 --> 00:56:09,834 it's so personal. 961 00:56:09,917 --> 00:56:12,542 Because I watched the-- I watched the damage. 962 00:56:13,208 --> 00:56:16,166 And I'm trying desperately to find some dignity. 963 00:56:16,250 --> 00:56:18,834 But, like, I just hear damage everywhere. 964 00:56:18,917 --> 00:56:22,542 ♪ You could still be what you want to ♪ 965 00:56:22,625 --> 00:56:25,208 ♪ What you said you were ♪ 966 00:56:25,291 --> 00:56:29,041 ♪ When I met you ♪ 967 00:56:29,125 --> 00:56:35,500 ♪ When you met me, when I met you ♪ 968 00:56:47,500 --> 00:56:48,750 -All right. -Okay? 969 00:56:48,834 --> 00:56:49,959 Mm-hmm. 970 00:56:51,625 --> 00:56:53,208 Piesse: Don't fucking hold anything back. 971 00:56:53,291 --> 00:56:54,667 Tell the truth. 972 00:57:08,500 --> 00:57:11,333 ♪♪ 973 00:57:30,125 --> 00:57:33,125 ♪ Aah ♪ 974 00:57:35,500 --> 00:57:40,041 ♪ Ooh-ooh ♪ 975 00:57:44,083 --> 00:57:48,834 ♪♪