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[Kidman] Women have compelling stories,
and women are compelling creators.
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[Amanat] There was something about the
superhero world that just felt like me.
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But I did not look like any of the girls
and the women that were featured in there.
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[Magruder] This whole notion
that you can identify with a character,
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I couldn't really understand.
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I can't even imagine
the impact that might've had.
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I need to write women,
'cause there aren't enough women,
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and there aren't enough women
writing women.
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I thought to myself,
"I wanna read a story that's about a girl
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because if it's about a girl
then the girl can't lose."
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People are drawn to characters
where something about them resonates.
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[Amanat] Superheroes are supposed to be
these positive ideals.
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Those are the images we internalize
and we compare ourselves to.
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The hardest thing
is choosing to look like yourself.
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[Amanat] I grew up in a small town
in New Jersey.
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I had three older brothers,
a really big family,
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and we were probably
the only Muslim family in that town.
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It was
a predominantly Caucasian community.
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It was a great childhood, but it was still
one where I was a little bit shy
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and definitely very awkward
and definitely felt like an outsider
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in so many different ways.
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I very much was an introvert.
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I was in my room drawing,
writing my own stories,
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playing with my Barbies
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very much in my own world,
in my own imagination.
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I tried to play with my cousins
and my brothers a lot.
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You know, I was the girl,
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and I couldn't, sort of,
do the play-fighting that they would do,
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and I couldn't really tackle
like they would be doing.
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So they'd say that I could be on the side
and be the cheerleader.
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And that made me real mad.
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I got into the superhero world
and the comics world through my brothers,
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mainly my oldest brother,
who was a big sci-fi fan, big comics fan.
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And he had a collection of comics.
Like, just stacks and stacks of comics.
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There was something
about the superhero world.
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As fantastic and high-octane they are,
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there was something about it
that just felt so much like me.
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I discovered the X-Men cartoon
in the '90s,
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which was, like, the big awakening for me.
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It was about these young people
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who were still coming into themselves,
figuring out who they were,
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but also had these struggles,
and they found a way
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to make their insecurities
into these really incredible strengths.
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And when I was very young, that's
something that deeply connected to me.
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I didn't realize at that point that it was
a thing that really boys only liked.
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I just loved
that they were cool characters
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with really amazing stories
that I connected with.
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[Robbins] Starting in the late '40s,
my girlfriends and I all read comics.
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All kids read comics.
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So, as soon as I was old enough
to cross two streets
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with my allowance clutched in my hand,
I would go to the corner candy store.
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And they had a rack that said,
"Hey, Kids! Comics!"
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And I basically bought any comic
that had a girl on the cover.
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But not a girl being rescued by a guy,
but a girl in command.
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A girl starring on the cover.
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There were so many comics to choose from.
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Sometimes when my mother
would go to the store
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I would read comics
off of the spinner racks.
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So I would read cowboy comics
and the occasional Superman.
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But I found that Lois Lane irritated me
because she was constantly trying to prove
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that Clark Kent was Superman instead of
getting out and doing reporter things.
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There were 70 million regular comic book
readers in the late 1940s.
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That was over half of the US population
were reading comic books,
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and they were reading
a lot of comic books.
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And the readership was really
50-50 male-female at that point.
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And this was largely because the genres
were really, really wide-ranging.
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[Kidman] Women played a significant role
in the workforce in the 1940s,
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particularly during World War II.
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This country relied on the labor of women
to keep the home front moving forward.
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And you see that in comic books as well.
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[Robbins] There were amazing women
of comics but who nobody knew about
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because when the guys
write books about comics,
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they just wanna write about Stan Lee
and Jack Kirby and the Hulk.
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Timely Comics
was what became Marvel Comics,
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and they had a whole group
of superheroines
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who each had their own title.
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Tarpé Mills was a newspaper cartoonist,
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and she drew
the first really important superheroine,
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costumed action heroine, Miss Fury.
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Marla Drake was a socialite
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who puts on this panther skin
and becomes Miss Fury.
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It's very film noir, and Marla Drake
looked exactly like Tarpé Mills.
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She put herself into her strip.
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It was like her own fantasy life.
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It's kind of a cliché to say
it opened a new world to me, but it did.
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It opened a world to me.
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Then the industry crashed,
pretty intensely, in 1954 and 1955.
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Comic books were accused
of endangering America's youth.
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The only way that you can
really stop this kind of thing
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is to arouse public opinion.
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If the people in a section decide
they don't want
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these horror and crime comic books sold,
read by their children,
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if they will become adamant and vigorous
about it, that is the best guarantee.
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So they brought
comic books up in front of Congress.
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There were hearings.
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[radio host] Good afternoon
from the federal courthouse
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in Foley Square in Downtown Manhattan.
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WNYC is about to bring you the afternoon
session of a Senate subcommittee
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on juvenile delinquency
investigating the effect of comic books
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on the increased rate of juvenile crime.
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[Kidman] And after that, a code
was created to restrict comic books.
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And that is pretty much
when everything changed.
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Readership dropped by about half
over the course of just a single year.
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And the industry was really struggling
to figure out what to do from there.
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These publishers
had to figure out how to stay afloat.
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And because Marvel
had its own distribution company,
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they were able to
actually stay in the business
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longer than a lot of these other companies
who were falling left and right.
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They had to think about which comic books
were the most important to them
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and the most likely to succeed.
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So they decided to focus
on a demographic they could count on,
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and this ended up being
young or teenage boys.
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And they found tremendous success
with superheroes.
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And as they focused on
these Silver Age superheroes,
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all of these other genres
gradually started to fall away.
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I like Spider-Man and Avengers,
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Flash, Iron Man and Hulk.
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They're nice comics.
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[Magruder] I was always that kid in school
that was drawing.
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It was something that became
a vocation for me.
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My mother took us to the library,
like, all the time,
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and I would just get out stacks and stacks
of drawing books,
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and those were instrumental for me
in learning how to draw.
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It was such a fight when I was younger
and I wanted to take this art path,
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and my mother really didn't get it.
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And she was also experiencing
a lot of pressure from our community,
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from friends and family who didn't
understand and who were telling her like,
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00:10:05,313 --> 00:10:09,283
"When are you gonna make Nilah stop
with this art hobby of hers?"
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So we fought a lot
leading up to high school graduation.
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00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:18,240
You know, my mother wanted me to major in
accounting or computer programming,
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00:10:18,326 --> 00:10:22,906
but that first year after I graduated,
I didn't go to college,
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because I was so adamant
that I had to get into an art program.
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00:10:27,544 --> 00:10:32,724
Eventually I got into Ringling College,
into their computer animation program.
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And it afforded me
the opportunity to do things with art
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I'd never done before,
and it was pretty cool.
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But I didn't actually start reading comics
until manga started coming over.
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And as much as I loved them,
I noticed this trend
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in that there's usually
one female character,
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and if she were to fight,
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if she were to go up against a guy,
specifically, she would always lose.
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And the expectation for a woman in comics
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00:11:04,664 --> 00:11:10,714
is that they're bubbly
and likable and upbeat,
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so that when the male character
is experiencing doubt
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and when the male character
is having all his angst and feelings,
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it's the woman who supports him
and helps him to save the day or whatever.
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So, you don't get to see very many
female characters be vulnerable
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and be unlikable and have depth like that.
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And that's, kind of, what interests me
about female characters.
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And I thought to myself,
"I wanna read a story like these
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that's about a girl because if it's
about a girl then the girl can't lose."
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["It Would Take A Miracle"
by Otis Mable playing]
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Twenty-five years ago, 1961.
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00:12:22,450 --> 00:12:25,450
Now there's a notable year.
John Kennedy became president.
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00:12:25,537 --> 00:12:28,827
Alan Shepard became
the first American in space.
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00:12:28,915 --> 00:12:33,585
The bikini became fashionable,
and Marvel Comics made its debut.
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[Duffy] There's the story
that Stan's wife, Joan, said to him,
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"Stan, why don't you just write something
for yourself that you're going to enjoy?"
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And that's when Stan first did
the Fantastic Four.
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[Robbins] The early '60s
was when the Marvel renaissance happened,
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with these new superheroes
who really were new and amazing.
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You know, there had never been superheroes
who had issues, who had problems before.
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00:13:05,452 --> 00:13:10,002
I mean, Spider-Man's costume would rip,
and he would have to sew it up by hand.
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00:13:10,081 --> 00:13:12,791
I loved the Human Torch
because he was a teenager,
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he drove hot cars, he was blonde,
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Jack Kirby made him look crazy,
crazy handsome,
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00:13:21,718 --> 00:13:24,138
and he was just somebody
I could relate to more,
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plus being able to fly
and have fire powers.
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So cool.
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I had no idea
they were considered to be for boys.
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That was quite a shock to me.
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When I got to a teenager
and girls would be like,
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"Oh, you have to talk to my boyfriend.
He likes comics."
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I was like,
"Well, why can't I talk to you?"
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"Well, I don't read comics."
It's like, "Yeesh."
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And, uh, it didn't occur to me,
even when I got into the business,
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that I was getting into a field
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where almost none
of the creator credits were girls.
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There was a token woman here,
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there was somebody's girlfriend there,
there was somebody's wife there,
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00:14:01,299 --> 00:14:03,009
but women weren't doing this.
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00:14:04,427 --> 00:14:06,467
[Steinberg] Oh, Stan.
Do you have a few minutes?
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[Lee] For our fabulous gal Friday, sure.
Say hello to the fans, Flo Steinberg.
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00:14:10,767 --> 00:14:13,397
[Steinberg] Hello, fans.
It's very nice to meet you.
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00:14:13,478 --> 00:14:16,558
As Marvel's corresponding secretary,
I feel as though
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I know most of you from your letters.
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[Robbins] Flo was there
from the beginning.
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00:14:21,736 --> 00:14:25,236
Everyone adored Flo,
and she was like a fixture.
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00:14:25,323 --> 00:14:28,833
She would personally answer the letters.
She took care of all that.
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00:14:29,369 --> 00:14:33,289
With her adorably unique voice
and her absolutely charming manner,
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00:14:33,373 --> 00:14:34,833
everyone loved Flo.
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00:14:34,916 --> 00:14:37,916
She lives forever
in the memory of Marvel fans.
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00:14:38,503 --> 00:14:41,633
So everyone knew Fabulous Flo Steinberg.
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[Duffy] Back then, there were only
a handful of women in comics.
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There were none of them writing or drawing
any regular superhero books at the time.
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You know, Paty Cockrum and Marie Severin,
two of the greatest artists,
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00:14:58,732 --> 00:15:01,402
and they were both
doing production art in the office,
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00:15:01,484 --> 00:15:04,454
instead of out there
on regular series where they belonged.
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00:15:05,989 --> 00:15:08,489
[Robbins] You know, they called her--
I don't know what they called her,
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00:15:08,575 --> 00:15:10,825
Mirthful Marie,
or something awful like that,
200
00:15:10,910 --> 00:15:15,210
and she did always put on
this happy face, and she didn't push.
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She would not have
even drawn comics for them.
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00:15:19,002 --> 00:15:25,842
She was just doing erasing
and fixing of pages until 1966,
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00:15:26,301 --> 00:15:31,141
when Esquire wanted to write an article
and they needed someone to illustrate it,
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00:15:31,222 --> 00:15:33,562
and all the guys were too busy
drawing the Hulk.
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00:15:33,641 --> 00:15:35,981
So Marie said, "I'll do it."
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00:15:36,061 --> 00:15:39,271
And when it came out,
Martin Goodman saw it and said,
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00:15:39,356 --> 00:15:42,896
"Hey, she can draw. Stan, give her work."
And he did.
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00:15:42,984 --> 00:15:45,744
She never pushed.
She never asked for work.
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[Brigman] Marie was really versatile,
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and I think she did
a lot of design work for Marvel
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that she's never really
been given credit for.
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00:15:55,246 --> 00:15:59,076
And I think she was just
too busy doing what she did
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00:15:59,709 --> 00:16:05,669
to really be concerned
with any kind of gender politics.
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00:16:05,757 --> 00:16:08,467
Even if there had been gender politics,
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00:16:08,551 --> 00:16:12,101
I think she would've just been like,
"Eh. I've got deadlines."
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00:16:14,516 --> 00:16:17,936
[Simonson]
Marie was just extraordinarily talented.
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00:16:18,019 --> 00:16:22,519
It's mind-boggling to think about
the number of characters she worked on.
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00:16:31,533 --> 00:16:33,623
What sort of career is this
for a grown woman?
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00:16:33,702 --> 00:16:37,122
It's a riot. It keeps me young. [laughs]
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Getting the idea is easy.
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00:16:48,842 --> 00:16:52,932
The tough thing is saying to yourself,
"Okay, I've got an idea for a character,
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00:16:53,555 --> 00:16:58,265
but now what can I do to this character
to make the readers care about 'em?
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00:16:58,351 --> 00:17:00,101
What haven't we done?"
224
00:17:00,186 --> 00:17:04,266
Publishers were trying to do
whatever they could to build an audience.
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00:17:04,357 --> 00:17:06,147
So there were lots of experiments,
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00:17:06,234 --> 00:17:09,654
lots of efforts to reach out
to different audiences,
227
00:17:09,738 --> 00:17:11,408
to do different kinds of genres.
228
00:17:13,992 --> 00:17:17,502
[Duffy] In the 1970s,
comics were in the doldrums.
229
00:17:17,579 --> 00:17:20,579
The companies were not
really supporting the comics.
230
00:17:20,665 --> 00:17:22,625
There was no money to be had,
231
00:17:22,709 --> 00:17:27,879
and the only people doing them were people
who just loved comic books so much.
232
00:17:28,882 --> 00:17:30,302
[Robbins] In the early '70s,
233
00:17:30,383 --> 00:17:35,143
Stan Lee did make
an attempt to bring back superheroines.
234
00:17:35,221 --> 00:17:37,221
And most of the writers were women.
235
00:17:37,307 --> 00:17:39,427
He did The Claws of the Cat.
236
00:17:40,143 --> 00:17:42,653
And, oh, my God, Night Nurse.
237
00:17:43,980 --> 00:17:46,440
And he did Shanna the She-Devil,
238
00:17:46,524 --> 00:17:51,954
and also, um, there was one other--
Oh, Ms. Marvel, of course.
239
00:18:04,250 --> 00:18:06,000
[DeConnick] All right, so Carol Danvers.
240
00:18:06,086 --> 00:18:12,006
So 1968, Carol Danvers makes her first
appearance in Marvel Superheroes #13.
241
00:18:12,550 --> 00:18:18,390
She is a supporting character that
later moves to the Captain Marvel title.
242
00:18:19,933 --> 00:18:23,483
She is a woman security officer
for the air force,
243
00:18:23,561 --> 00:18:27,191
and she stays that way
for a number of years.
244
00:18:27,273 --> 00:18:32,903
And then, in 1977,
Gerry Conway and his then wife, Carla,
245
00:18:32,987 --> 00:18:38,867
launched Ms. Marvel #1
which elevated Carol Danvers.
246
00:18:42,038 --> 00:18:48,668
Carol is caught in the blast
of a Kree Psyche-Magnitron machine,
247
00:18:48,753 --> 00:18:51,423
and it transfers
the powers of Captain Marvel
248
00:18:51,506 --> 00:18:55,006
into the body of Carol Danvers,
and she becomes Ms. Marvel.
249
00:18:55,093 --> 00:19:01,223
And so she has all of his power set
but also amnesia and a "seventh sense,"
250
00:19:01,307 --> 00:19:02,597
which is my favorite.
251
00:19:02,684 --> 00:19:04,774
I think it was supposed
to be women's intuition.
252
00:19:04,853 --> 00:19:06,943
We just kinda let it die away.
253
00:19:07,897 --> 00:19:11,607
For Carol, her formative wound was
254
00:19:11,693 --> 00:19:18,123
her dad is a construction foreman,
and he has two older boys and her,
255
00:19:18,199 --> 00:19:21,659
and, basically, can afford to send
two of them to college
256
00:19:21,745 --> 00:19:24,245
and figures Carol's just gonna
get married anyway,
257
00:19:24,330 --> 00:19:25,870
and he doesn't wanna waste the money.
258
00:19:25,957 --> 00:19:29,957
And so, she actually joins the Service
in order to get college paid for,
259
00:19:30,045 --> 00:19:32,545
and that's where she kind of
finds her agency.
260
00:19:32,630 --> 00:19:34,130
That's where she learns to fly.
261
00:19:34,215 --> 00:19:38,595
And so, that was really good
because the thing about Carol is just--
262
00:19:38,678 --> 00:19:40,428
She's like,
"Higher, faster, further", right?
263
00:19:40,513 --> 00:19:42,273
She's always pushing herself.
264
00:19:42,349 --> 00:19:43,889
Reach always exceeds grasp.
265
00:19:43,975 --> 00:19:49,765
She always wants to do more than she can,
and she's trying to prove to her dad
266
00:19:49,856 --> 00:19:53,186
that she's just as worthy as the boys.
267
00:20:00,950 --> 00:20:05,290
When I got out of college and was ready
to look for that all-important first job,
268
00:20:05,372 --> 00:20:07,752
the people at Marvel knew
perfectly well who I was
269
00:20:07,832 --> 00:20:10,502
because I was
an obnoxious letter-column person
270
00:20:10,585 --> 00:20:13,585
who was always dying to tell them
how to do their jobs better.
271
00:20:17,550 --> 00:20:22,470
They hired me in December of 1976, which
was six months after I got out of college.
272
00:20:22,555 --> 00:20:26,935
What they needed was somebody to return
artwork to the artists, and I was like,
273
00:20:27,018 --> 00:20:29,808
"Job at Marvel Comics?
Ding, ding, ding, ding! Sold."
274
00:20:30,397 --> 00:20:34,437
So while I was doing art returns,
I wrote some little five-page stories
275
00:20:34,526 --> 00:20:38,066
that were auditions for me,
and I would get my try at writing.
276
00:20:38,154 --> 00:20:40,534
And then one of
the assistant editors left,
277
00:20:40,615 --> 00:20:43,905
and the job opened up,
and I kinda slid into it.
278
00:20:45,745 --> 00:20:49,285
The agreement is always an
assistant editor will get to write a book.
279
00:20:49,374 --> 00:20:52,044
And, somehow, that was never me.
280
00:20:54,045 --> 00:20:54,955
Finally, when I was like,
281
00:20:55,046 --> 00:20:58,006
"Hey, there are assistant editors
you've hired since me
282
00:20:58,091 --> 00:21:00,931
who've got one or two books
a month to write each.
283
00:21:01,011 --> 00:21:02,681
When am I gonna get mine?"
284
00:21:02,762 --> 00:21:04,642
And that day they said,
285
00:21:04,723 --> 00:21:07,393
"Well, who's the most
over-committed writer we have?
286
00:21:07,475 --> 00:21:09,055
Oh, that would be Chris Claremont."
287
00:21:09,144 --> 00:21:10,774
"Well, Chris is writing Ms. Marvel.
288
00:21:10,854 --> 00:21:13,064
So, Jo, how about
if you take over Ms. Marvel?"
289
00:21:13,148 --> 00:21:15,278
And Chris said,
290
00:21:15,358 --> 00:21:17,898
"You're not getting Ms. Marvel
away from me. I love her.
291
00:21:17,986 --> 00:21:20,566
Give Jo Power Man and Iron Fist."
292
00:21:20,655 --> 00:21:23,825
And I was like, "Suits me fine."
293
00:21:23,908 --> 00:21:25,698
"Ms. Marvel I could take or leave,
294
00:21:25,785 --> 00:21:29,115
I love her costume, but I've never
related to her as a character.
295
00:21:29,205 --> 00:21:31,705
But Power Man and Iron Fist
I'm crazy about.
296
00:21:31,791 --> 00:21:34,841
I loved Bruce Lee.
I love big, strong, tough guys.
297
00:21:34,919 --> 00:21:37,959
I never missed an issue
of either of their books when I was a fan.
298
00:21:38,048 --> 00:21:39,718
Give me Power Man and Iron Fist."
299
00:21:41,259 --> 00:21:43,469
Under my run, it became quite successful.
300
00:21:43,553 --> 00:21:47,473
It went from near cancellations bimonthly
to healthy monthly.
301
00:21:47,557 --> 00:21:51,687
And, suddenly, Power Man and Iron Fist
was maybe better handled by somebody else.
302
00:21:51,770 --> 00:21:53,860
So, as a result,
after Power Man and Iron Fist,
303
00:21:53,938 --> 00:21:56,778
suddenly it's like,
"Jo, Star Wars looks like it's moribund.
304
00:21:56,858 --> 00:21:58,398
How about if you do that next?"
305
00:21:59,277 --> 00:22:03,197
But how I coped was by
never trying to get near anything
306
00:22:03,281 --> 00:22:07,081
that was some boy's childhood best friend
he would kill me if I tried to write.
307
00:22:13,166 --> 00:22:15,416
-[Amanat's mother] Hello, Sana.
-Oh, my God!
308
00:22:15,502 --> 00:22:17,172
-We are moving in.
-Oh, my...
309
00:22:17,253 --> 00:22:19,513
-Are you ready for us?
-I don't want you to move in.
310
00:22:19,589 --> 00:22:20,549
Look at the luggage.
311
00:22:20,632 --> 00:22:21,972
Why did you bring so much?
312
00:22:22,050 --> 00:22:25,430
-I told you I had everything. Come.
-No, it's, uh... [stammers]
313
00:22:25,512 --> 00:22:27,182
-You know... Wisdom.
-We have plans.
314
00:22:27,263 --> 00:22:28,103
Okay.
315
00:22:28,181 --> 00:22:30,271
And this is all your pictures...
316
00:22:30,350 --> 00:22:31,940
-Oh, wow.
-Hopefully, hopefully.
317
00:22:32,018 --> 00:22:34,688
All right, so, Abbu,
do you want tea or something?
318
00:22:35,355 --> 00:22:37,265
[Amanat's father] Anything that you give.
319
00:22:38,358 --> 00:22:41,028
-[Amanat] Can you tell? Where is that?
-Brilliance of the Seas. This was in...
320
00:22:41,111 --> 00:22:44,611
-Mediterranean, some years ago.
-Okay. You have chance here to talk a lot.
321
00:22:44,698 --> 00:22:46,868
So I thought I'll put this picture here
so she can--
322
00:22:46,950 --> 00:22:49,740
She put our picture
of the wedding day over there.
323
00:22:54,082 --> 00:22:57,592
[Amanat's mother] We grew up in
a very international environment in India,
324
00:22:57,669 --> 00:22:59,049
in Bombay.
325
00:22:59,129 --> 00:23:03,509
You know, this was just when
the riots of partitions were just over.
326
00:23:03,591 --> 00:23:08,471
It was very multicultural,
very British-style everything.
327
00:23:08,555 --> 00:23:11,175
That's how we grew up. Accepting everyone.
328
00:23:12,100 --> 00:23:14,520
I think I somehow, directly, indirectly,
329
00:23:14,602 --> 00:23:19,442
I passed on to my children in story forms,
330
00:23:19,524 --> 00:23:22,194
know your identity yet appreciate others.
331
00:23:25,655 --> 00:23:26,905
[Amanat] There was a moment.
332
00:23:26,990 --> 00:23:30,330
It was the first World Trade Center
bombing back in the '90s.
333
00:23:30,744 --> 00:23:34,464
And, afterwards, this kid came up to me,
and he was just like,
334
00:23:34,539 --> 00:23:38,169
"Hey, can you tell your people
to stop bombing us?"
335
00:23:38,626 --> 00:23:44,416
And I was so confused, 'cause I'm like,
"Who? My what? Who are you talking about?"
336
00:23:44,507 --> 00:23:47,507
And I realized that there was
337
00:23:47,594 --> 00:23:51,434
an actual issue
when it came to Muslims in the West,
338
00:23:51,514 --> 00:23:52,564
at a very young age.
339
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,940
I must've been 11 at that point,
maybe 12. Eleven or 12.
340
00:23:56,019 --> 00:23:59,439
And I think that was the moment
where I was like, "Oh, I am different.
341
00:23:59,522 --> 00:24:03,612
And not only am I different,
I think that people don't like it.
342
00:24:03,693 --> 00:24:07,113
I think that people don't like
that I am who I am."
343
00:24:18,458 --> 00:24:22,298
[Amanat] I went into college
thinking I was going to be a journalist
344
00:24:22,379 --> 00:24:24,089
or be an international lawyer.
345
00:24:24,172 --> 00:24:28,182
I was gonna change the world,
heal the divide between the East and West.
346
00:24:28,259 --> 00:24:32,099
I had this really innate desire
to change people's perceptions
347
00:24:32,180 --> 00:24:34,310
and change
people's perceptions of Muslims,
348
00:24:34,391 --> 00:24:38,231
and I thought the only way to do that
was if I was a part of the media
349
00:24:38,311 --> 00:24:40,771
and I was telling the stories
and building the narrative.
350
00:24:40,855 --> 00:24:42,855
[food sizzling]
351
00:24:45,193 --> 00:24:48,413
My parents were always very supportive
of everything that I wanted to do.
352
00:24:48,488 --> 00:24:52,408
I think my mother has always been like,
"Try to do something practical."
353
00:24:52,492 --> 00:24:54,082
She was the one who had told me,
354
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,250
"Don't depend on a man. Get a job."
355
00:24:56,329 --> 00:24:59,579
Which is the polar opposite of probably
every South Asian mother out there.
356
00:25:00,792 --> 00:25:03,712
And my father was always
more about the broad mission statement of
357
00:25:03,795 --> 00:25:06,965
always doing something good,
whatever it is that you're working on.
358
00:25:07,048 --> 00:25:08,218
And so I thought,
359
00:25:08,299 --> 00:25:11,589
"Okay, be an international lawyer.
Start affecting policy in a real way."
360
00:25:13,596 --> 00:25:15,766
I was studying for the LSAT,
and I'm like, I'm doing something
361
00:25:15,849 --> 00:25:21,599
that I think I have to do to be able
to make these big, impactful changes,
362
00:25:21,688 --> 00:25:24,068
but it's fundamentally not who I am.
363
00:25:25,275 --> 00:25:26,105
Thank you.
364
00:25:26,192 --> 00:25:31,112
I got a job at a small indie comics
company called Virgin Comics.
365
00:25:31,197 --> 00:25:34,277
My first job was technically, like,
editorial assistant.
366
00:25:35,493 --> 00:25:37,333
I had a tough experience because
367
00:25:37,412 --> 00:25:41,422
I genuinely did not feel like
I was good at it.
368
00:25:41,499 --> 00:25:44,499
And a lot of it was because
some of the feedback
369
00:25:44,586 --> 00:25:46,756
I had gotten by people in the community,
370
00:25:46,838 --> 00:25:50,338
because I didn't grow up reading comics
the way that they had
371
00:25:50,425 --> 00:25:56,715
or I didn't have this sort of comics IQ
that was necessary to be a comics editor,
372
00:25:56,806 --> 00:25:59,726
perhaps I didn't have what it takes
to be a good editor.
373
00:25:59,809 --> 00:26:02,849
And that was hard
because I internalized that a lot,
374
00:26:02,937 --> 00:26:04,727
because I didn't know
if I had what it took.
375
00:26:04,814 --> 00:26:06,614
I didn't read everything.
I didn't know everything.
376
00:26:06,691 --> 00:26:10,281
And quite frankly, I wasn't sure
if I wanted to stay in comics.
377
00:26:12,238 --> 00:26:15,738
MacKenzie Cadenhead is who mentored me
in my first job in comics,
378
00:26:15,825 --> 00:26:18,115
and she really wanted me
to stay in the industry.
379
00:26:18,203 --> 00:26:21,253
She's like, "You just have
a natural inclination to storytelling,
380
00:26:21,331 --> 00:26:24,001
to visual storytelling,
to comic book storytelling,
381
00:26:24,084 --> 00:26:27,884
that I haven't really seen before,
and it would be such a waste for you
382
00:26:27,962 --> 00:26:30,762
to just do away with that
and forget about it."
383
00:26:31,091 --> 00:26:35,221
Her husband, Dan Buckley, at the time he
was publisher at Marvel,
384
00:26:35,303 --> 00:26:38,683
offered me a job, but I told him.
385
00:26:38,765 --> 00:26:43,765
So I said, "Look, I'm a little nervous
because I don't think I can do
386
00:26:43,853 --> 00:26:46,613
what some of the editors
who've been around forever can do.
387
00:26:46,690 --> 00:26:48,860
I don't know everything.
I don't know if I'm gonna be able
388
00:26:48,942 --> 00:26:50,532
to be a strong enough editor."
389
00:26:50,610 --> 00:26:54,910
And he's like, "Look,
that is totally fine with us
390
00:26:54,989 --> 00:26:58,329
because you're gonna
give us something completely different
391
00:26:58,410 --> 00:27:00,950
than someone who's been around
for 20 years,
392
00:27:01,037 --> 00:27:03,207
who's edited comics for 15 years.
393
00:27:03,289 --> 00:27:07,709
You will add a different kind of voice
to Marvel Comics' editorial,
394
00:27:07,794 --> 00:27:09,464
and that's exactly what we need."
395
00:27:16,594 --> 00:27:20,024
And so, I had that support from the get-go
and really kind of decided,
396
00:27:20,098 --> 00:27:22,768
"Okay, let me do this
and see where it takes me."
397
00:27:26,646 --> 00:27:30,276
And I couldn't have imagined
where it took me. [chuckles]
398
00:27:35,989 --> 00:27:37,779
[woman] Who's that that you're drawing
right now?
399
00:27:37,866 --> 00:27:38,946
[Magruder] Abbie.
400
00:27:40,368 --> 00:27:42,998
I was always more drawn
to the side characters
401
00:27:43,079 --> 00:27:47,289
in any media that I consumed,
and one day it kinda hit me.
402
00:27:47,375 --> 00:27:50,045
"You know, you're spending all your time
on these side characters.
403
00:27:50,128 --> 00:27:52,628
Why don't you make the side characters
main characters?"
404
00:27:52,714 --> 00:27:57,144
And so, Abbie was, kind of,
one of my first instances of that.
405
00:27:57,635 --> 00:28:01,845
She's introverted, sarcastic
and kinda mean sometimes,
406
00:28:01,931 --> 00:28:04,351
and that's her identity.
407
00:28:08,938 --> 00:28:12,938
It was one of my first experiences
of having a main character that I loved.
408
00:28:17,405 --> 00:28:22,365
Around the same time, I'd also been having
this conversation with my parents
409
00:28:22,452 --> 00:28:24,252
in which they would look
at my art and ask me,
410
00:28:24,329 --> 00:28:26,119
"Why do you draw
so many white characters?"
411
00:28:26,206 --> 00:28:29,536
Like, a lot of my characters were pale,
and this is something
412
00:28:29,626 --> 00:28:32,456
that I've actually talked
with other artists of color
413
00:28:32,545 --> 00:28:35,125
'cause we all have experienced
this same phenomenon
414
00:28:35,215 --> 00:28:40,675
where when we dream up
our own stories as children, at least,
415
00:28:40,762 --> 00:28:44,062
those characters are often white or,
you know, light-skinned.
416
00:28:46,267 --> 00:28:50,187
And so I started having
this very honest conversation with myself
417
00:28:50,271 --> 00:28:53,651
in which I was asking, "Why does
dark skin make you uncomfortable?"
418
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,110
And so, when I started developing M.F.K.,
419
00:28:59,197 --> 00:29:02,947
I realized this was an opportunity
to kinda confront that discomfort.
420
00:29:03,034 --> 00:29:08,794
And so my goals were to make a female
character and make a black character.
421
00:29:13,545 --> 00:29:16,625
I started putting M.F.K. online.
422
00:29:17,173 --> 00:29:21,303
The great thing about webcomics
is it's a very accessible way
423
00:29:21,386 --> 00:29:23,386
to show what you can do.
424
00:29:23,471 --> 00:29:27,521
All you need is Internet access,
and you can view them anywhere
425
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:29,890
on any device in any country.
426
00:29:29,978 --> 00:29:31,518
For me, it was a way of showing that
427
00:29:31,604 --> 00:29:34,114
not only can I draw,
but I can write as well.
428
00:29:35,442 --> 00:29:38,322
M.F.K. had always had, kind of,
a small following
429
00:29:38,403 --> 00:29:40,863
because I didn't
go out of my way to advertise it.
430
00:29:40,947 --> 00:29:43,027
I kinda let it spread by word of mouth.
431
00:29:43,116 --> 00:29:47,946
So, the followership was pretty small up
until the Dwayne McDuffie Award.
432
00:29:48,913 --> 00:29:50,463
When I saw the finalist list
433
00:29:50,540 --> 00:29:55,710
and saw that I was up against
Shaft by David Walker and Ms. Marvel,
434
00:29:55,795 --> 00:29:59,875
I did not think it had a chance at all.
It's just my dumb little webcomic.
435
00:30:02,260 --> 00:30:05,470
When I received the award
and the ceremony broke,
436
00:30:05,555 --> 00:30:08,925
and I finally checked my phone,
it was just blowing up.
437
00:30:09,017 --> 00:30:10,687
I feel like
that was kinda a turning point.
438
00:30:10,769 --> 00:30:13,559
All of a sudden,
I had all this media attention,
439
00:30:13,646 --> 00:30:17,606
and it was the level of attention
that I had been wanting for the comic
440
00:30:17,692 --> 00:30:22,032
and suddenly I had it.
It's kind of a trippy experience.
441
00:30:28,828 --> 00:30:31,708
-[Nocenti] Hello, how are you?
-[Simonson laughing]
442
00:30:31,790 --> 00:30:33,540
-It's so funny because I was--
-Isn't it kinda like...
443
00:30:33,625 --> 00:30:36,165
Now this is funny.
Look at all these girls.
444
00:30:36,252 --> 00:30:38,672
These are women that worked at Marvel.
445
00:30:38,755 --> 00:30:39,875
So I don't remember the story
446
00:30:39,964 --> 00:30:42,184
-because the words are gone,
-[Simonson] I don't remember it either.
447
00:30:42,258 --> 00:30:45,798
[Nocenti] But this is from the Fumetti,
and it must've been a story
448
00:30:45,887 --> 00:30:49,467
where it's like, "Let's get all the women
that work at Marvel into an office,
449
00:30:49,557 --> 00:30:51,727
and then Stan comes in?"
450
00:30:51,810 --> 00:30:53,440
-[Simonson] I don't--
-[Nocenti] There you are, right?
451
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:54,600
[Simonson] Oh, yeah, there I am. Wow.
452
00:30:54,688 --> 00:30:56,438
[Nocenti] Oh, my God. Look what I found.
453
00:30:57,399 --> 00:31:01,699
-[Simonson] Oh, there you go. [laughs]
-[Nocenti] The welcome mat. [chuckles]
454
00:31:01,778 --> 00:31:03,778
[Nocenti] The Bullpen,
and we were all working there,
455
00:31:03,863 --> 00:31:07,663
has a history
of ruthlessly making fun of everyone.
456
00:31:07,742 --> 00:31:10,792
-[Simonson] Yes.
-[Nocenti] And one day I came in
457
00:31:10,870 --> 00:31:13,500
and there was this
blank-eyed idiot on my door.
458
00:31:13,581 --> 00:31:15,211
I was like, "I guess that's me."
459
00:31:15,291 --> 00:31:19,591
And then the next day I came in,
and someone had turned it into a doormat.
460
00:31:19,671 --> 00:31:21,341
And you know what it was all about?
461
00:31:21,423 --> 00:31:24,553
Because Barry Windsor-Smith
462
00:31:24,634 --> 00:31:27,264
-was drawing the X-Men...
-[Simonson] Uh-huh.
463
00:31:27,345 --> 00:31:31,175
...and people thought
I was letting him go wild.
464
00:31:31,266 --> 00:31:36,436
And so somehow that translated
into my face on a doormat
465
00:31:36,521 --> 00:31:38,771
-at the entrance of my editorial office.
-[Simonson scoffs]
466
00:31:38,857 --> 00:31:40,187
First of all, I think that's rude.
467
00:31:40,275 --> 00:31:43,275
Second of all, you were actually able
to get work out of Barry Smith,
468
00:31:43,361 --> 00:31:45,531
which is a first-class miracle
right there.
469
00:31:45,613 --> 00:31:47,573
And Barry's work is always beautiful.
470
00:31:47,657 --> 00:31:48,987
[Nocenti] It's always good.
471
00:31:50,285 --> 00:31:52,945
By the time I got to Marvel in the '80s,
472
00:31:53,038 --> 00:31:55,418
I think we happened to
hit at the sweet spot
473
00:31:55,498 --> 00:31:59,248
when the people were really
welcoming to have females in comics.
474
00:31:59,336 --> 00:32:00,586
Everybody was like,
475
00:32:00,670 --> 00:32:03,210
"Oh boy, there's a girl here.
Let's help her."
476
00:32:03,298 --> 00:32:08,968
It was the opposite from what I hear
people talking about in the '70s.
477
00:32:11,306 --> 00:32:13,726
[Kidman] At that time, in the 1980s,
478
00:32:13,808 --> 00:32:17,308
comic books were still
a very male-dominated space.
479
00:32:18,104 --> 00:32:19,694
But then it started to open up again.
480
00:32:20,857 --> 00:32:24,737
In the early 1980s,
both DC and Marvel shifted
481
00:32:24,819 --> 00:32:28,369
from bigger distributors
to specialty shops,
482
00:32:28,448 --> 00:32:30,528
and it was through those specialty shops
483
00:32:30,617 --> 00:32:35,787
that they were able to cultivate
a loyal audience of fans
484
00:32:35,872 --> 00:32:38,502
and actually flourish in the late 1980s.
485
00:32:40,251 --> 00:32:42,171
-[man] You read the Marvel Age?
-[boy 1] Yeah, totally.
486
00:32:42,253 --> 00:32:44,513
[boy 2] Where, like, three people die?
Well, issue #210...
487
00:32:44,589 --> 00:32:47,219
Marvel is more, like, realistic.
488
00:32:49,344 --> 00:32:52,764
[Nocenti] The first time I walked
into the Marvel Comics office,
489
00:32:52,847 --> 00:32:57,267
I wasn't that aware
of what a superhero was,
490
00:32:57,352 --> 00:33:03,152
and the magic
of what Marvel Comics was up to
491
00:33:03,233 --> 00:33:05,743
became apparent really quickly.
492
00:33:05,819 --> 00:33:10,239
I mean, you walk into the Marvel Bullpen
and there's Marie Severin,
493
00:33:10,323 --> 00:33:13,873
and she's telling you stories and drawing,
494
00:33:13,952 --> 00:33:16,792
and she's pulling out her guns
for reference.
495
00:33:16,871 --> 00:33:21,291
You had Archie Goodwin, who was considered
the master of plot mechanics.
496
00:33:21,376 --> 00:33:23,796
Denny O'Neil, who was a journalist.
497
00:33:23,878 --> 00:33:27,668
If you were having trouble with a plot,
you'd go in and there would be Denny.
498
00:33:28,299 --> 00:33:32,679
The spirit of the place was so playful
and so much fun,
499
00:33:32,762 --> 00:33:36,352
and you had a constant sense
of being mentored.
500
00:33:37,517 --> 00:33:43,107
Louise Simonson taught me everything
that I know about editing.
501
00:33:45,316 --> 00:33:48,646
[Simonson] I think I was the only editor
who was a mother then.
502
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,820
I had a daughter
that I had to drop off at school.
503
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:58,750
So my daily routine was not
what the suits would have liked.
504
00:33:59,539 --> 00:34:02,959
And I was told by,
I think it was the comptroller
505
00:34:03,043 --> 00:34:06,553
just riding up in the elevator,
he said, "You know what?"
506
00:34:06,629 --> 00:34:10,469
He said, "You have this terrible record
for coming in on time."
507
00:34:10,550 --> 00:34:14,260
But he said, "You do more pages
than anybody else,
508
00:34:14,346 --> 00:34:17,346
and they're making more money
than everybody else is.
509
00:34:18,141 --> 00:34:20,641
So, just keep doing what you're doing."
510
00:34:21,311 --> 00:34:24,061
I mean, I thought it was
actually kind of cool.
511
00:34:24,147 --> 00:34:29,487
Now, honestly, as far as the amount
of money the books I was making went,
512
00:34:29,569 --> 00:34:33,529
I did have the X-Men. So, duh.
513
00:34:33,615 --> 00:34:36,365
I mean, yeah, I was just lucky.
514
00:34:37,744 --> 00:34:42,874
[Nocenti] I was Louise Simonson's
assistant, and when she decided to leave,
515
00:34:42,957 --> 00:34:47,337
the X-Men were actually, I think,
the best-selling books.
516
00:34:47,420 --> 00:34:49,880
And Weezie asked everybody, you know,
517
00:34:49,964 --> 00:34:51,764
"Do you want the X-Men?
Do you want the X-Men?"
518
00:34:51,841 --> 00:34:53,641
Everyone said,
"No, we don't want the X-Men"
519
00:34:53,718 --> 00:34:57,008
because people tended
to love what they were doing.
520
00:34:57,097 --> 00:35:00,307
You know, you're the Avengers editor
or you're the Spider-Man editor.
521
00:35:00,392 --> 00:35:02,812
So nobody wanted the X-Men,
522
00:35:02,894 --> 00:35:07,194
and I had already
gotten to know Chris really well
523
00:35:07,273 --> 00:35:13,033
and sat in on all their story meetings,
so it was a really seamless transition.
524
00:35:16,074 --> 00:35:18,284
I started getting little short stories,
525
00:35:18,368 --> 00:35:22,328
and then I got the assignment
to kill Spider-Woman.
526
00:35:22,414 --> 00:35:24,834
That was my first big assignment.
527
00:35:24,916 --> 00:35:27,916
I was excited
at the idea of killing Spider-Woman.
528
00:35:28,378 --> 00:35:31,128
Maybe I was too naive and stupid
to realize
529
00:35:31,214 --> 00:35:34,054
that killing a character
is not something you want to do,
530
00:35:34,134 --> 00:35:37,264
and that Mark had probably asked
every other writer
531
00:35:37,345 --> 00:35:40,465
if they would kill Spider-Woman,
and they all went, "No."
532
00:35:40,557 --> 00:35:43,727
Look at this.
This is the first drawing of Longshot.
533
00:35:43,810 --> 00:35:48,520
This was like him saying what kind of
stuff he would like to have in Longshot,
534
00:35:48,606 --> 00:35:51,226
-what the theme should be.
-[Simonson] That's great.
535
00:35:51,317 --> 00:35:52,567
-[Nocenti] Isn't it sweet?
-[Simonson] I know.
536
00:35:52,652 --> 00:35:55,452
-[Nocenti] Look, "To Louise and Anne."
-Aw.
537
00:35:55,530 --> 00:35:58,620
I love Arthur.
I had totally forgotten about this.
538
00:35:59,075 --> 00:36:01,365
When Annie started writing Longshot,
539
00:36:01,453 --> 00:36:05,043
and I saw
what a strong point of view she had,
540
00:36:05,123 --> 00:36:08,753
and how well she expressed it,
I thought, "Wow. She's really something."
541
00:36:08,835 --> 00:36:12,955
She had a real distinct way
of thinking about things,
542
00:36:13,048 --> 00:36:16,928
and I think that that's...
that was such an advantage for her.
543
00:36:17,927 --> 00:36:22,767
It's really important to read works
by people who have points of view
544
00:36:23,391 --> 00:36:27,771
because it expands my own point of view
of somebody who sees things differently,
545
00:36:27,854 --> 00:36:30,694
and Annie saw everything differently.
546
00:36:30,774 --> 00:36:33,034
Her stuff was just brilliant.
547
00:36:35,445 --> 00:36:38,445
[Nocenti] I remember just sitting on the
subway every day going to work
548
00:36:38,531 --> 00:36:43,121
and wondering what everyone was thinking
and taking that to the next step of,
549
00:36:43,203 --> 00:36:45,123
"What if the train went to hell,
550
00:36:45,205 --> 00:36:48,495
and then Daredevil gets to go to hell
and meet Mephisto?"
551
00:36:48,583 --> 00:36:51,253
That's like fun. That's like an opera.
552
00:36:51,336 --> 00:36:53,166
[man singing opera]
553
00:36:54,464 --> 00:36:57,474
[Nocenti] There's a lot of fun
to choreographing a fight.
554
00:36:57,550 --> 00:37:01,970
I mean, when I was writing Daredevil,
I started taking karate classes.
555
00:37:02,055 --> 00:37:03,925
It was like I wanted to learn
how to fight.
556
00:37:04,015 --> 00:37:05,425
I started boxing.
557
00:37:06,768 --> 00:37:12,148
So, I got into it,
and I enjoyed the choreography of a fight,
558
00:37:12,232 --> 00:37:14,732
but at some point you have to say,
559
00:37:14,818 --> 00:37:19,358
"What am I saying about the world that
everything has to escalate into a fight?"
560
00:37:20,490 --> 00:37:24,120
People talk about
why there aren't more women in comics.
561
00:37:24,202 --> 00:37:27,712
I've always thought it had to do
with that narrative itself.
562
00:37:28,415 --> 00:37:35,375
Women relate to feeling powerful,
feeling emancipated, having agency,
563
00:37:35,463 --> 00:37:39,013
but do they relate
to people smashing each other?
564
00:37:39,092 --> 00:37:40,092
I don't think so.
565
00:37:40,885 --> 00:37:42,925
Back then I wasn't thinking,
566
00:37:43,013 --> 00:37:48,853
"How do I draw females
into being interested in these stories?"
567
00:37:51,604 --> 00:37:52,614
[Simonson chuckling]
568
00:37:52,689 --> 00:37:55,779
-It's so good seeing you. [chuckles]
-Oh, I know. [chuckles]
569
00:37:55,859 --> 00:38:01,069
I avoided female characters
like the plague for years.
570
00:38:01,156 --> 00:38:01,986
[Nocenti] Why?
571
00:38:02,073 --> 00:38:06,833
Because I didn't want to get typecast
as a woman who writes female characters,
572
00:38:06,911 --> 00:38:09,961
-'cause those characters never lasted.
-Yeah.
573
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,250
And no-- And then you were out of a job.
574
00:38:12,334 --> 00:38:15,054
I think I was just trying
to write like a man back then.
575
00:38:15,128 --> 00:38:16,758
-Yeah.
-I was just like,
576
00:38:16,838 --> 00:38:18,378
"Oh, let me be one of the boys.
577
00:38:18,465 --> 00:38:21,005
I'll write Punisher,
Wolverine, Daredevil."
578
00:38:21,092 --> 00:38:23,642
-And then I thought that you...
-[Simonson] Mm-hmm.
579
00:38:23,720 --> 00:38:28,980
...and Trina Robbins were the first people
that were kinda like,
580
00:38:29,059 --> 00:38:33,229
"Wait a minute.
Let's try a comic that isn't for men."
581
00:38:33,313 --> 00:38:36,573
[Simonson] I thought, maybe,
I wanted to write something,
582
00:38:36,649 --> 00:38:40,109
and I had this idea
of four little kids who are superheroes.
583
00:38:40,195 --> 00:38:43,775
[Brigman] Weezie said, "I have an idea
for this comic book called Power Pack."
584
00:38:44,616 --> 00:38:50,406
The stories she wrote were really more
like classic young adult stories.
585
00:38:50,497 --> 00:38:54,537
I don't think there were
any other comics like that.
586
00:38:55,293 --> 00:38:59,053
It appealed to a different
sort of audience,
587
00:38:59,130 --> 00:39:03,590
from the 13, 14-year-old-boy audience.
588
00:39:03,677 --> 00:39:08,517
[Simonson] I like stories that have power,
if I'm doing one of the superhero stories,
589
00:39:08,598 --> 00:39:12,388
but Power Pack was a little different,
and it wasn't just about power.
590
00:39:13,019 --> 00:39:15,859
It was about family, about interaction.
591
00:39:18,149 --> 00:39:21,359
[Brigman] She looked at my portfolio,
and she said,
592
00:39:21,444 --> 00:39:23,284
"Do you know how to draw children?"
593
00:39:23,363 --> 00:39:26,203
And I said, "Yeah.
I can draw children." And I could.
594
00:39:27,367 --> 00:39:30,407
What did you do before Power Pack?
595
00:39:30,495 --> 00:39:32,075
-Nothing. [chuckles]
-Nothing?
596
00:39:32,163 --> 00:39:34,253
-That was it.
-[laughs] Nothing really.
597
00:39:35,125 --> 00:39:38,245
[Brigman] It's remarkable
that this book came along when it did,
598
00:39:38,336 --> 00:39:40,666
because I was not good
at drawing superheroes.
599
00:39:40,755 --> 00:39:43,125
It was really hard for me to exaggerate
600
00:39:43,216 --> 00:39:47,716
the way you needed to exaggerate
the human body and anatomy,
601
00:39:47,804 --> 00:39:50,524
-but I could draw children.
-[Simonson] She was just brilliant.
602
00:39:50,598 --> 00:39:53,978
The characters became
even more themselves when she drew them.
603
00:39:54,060 --> 00:39:57,480
[Brigman] I was really lucky that I worked
with a writer who knew what she was doing,
604
00:39:57,564 --> 00:40:00,864
because I was just starting out,
and I really didn't know what I was doing.
605
00:40:02,736 --> 00:40:04,696
We were at a convention,
and this young woman came over,
606
00:40:04,779 --> 00:40:09,369
and she had graduated from SCAD Savannah,
607
00:40:09,451 --> 00:40:13,831
and she goes, "I just wanted to meet you
'cause we studied you in class."
608
00:40:13,913 --> 00:40:17,753
And I was like, "What class was that?"
And she said, "History of Comics."
609
00:40:17,834 --> 00:40:21,384
-[Simonson] Oh, God. [laughing]
-[Brigman laughing]
610
00:40:24,257 --> 00:40:26,837
[Robbins] Most women I know who draw
comics, and there are very few of us,
611
00:40:26,926 --> 00:40:29,846
don't really draw superheroines,
and I come the closest to it.
612
00:40:29,929 --> 00:40:33,179
I draw strong women,
but they don't have superpowers.
613
00:40:33,266 --> 00:40:35,096
They're victorious in the end,
and they're strong
614
00:40:35,185 --> 00:40:38,435
because I like women who are like that,
and I wanna be like that.
615
00:40:38,521 --> 00:40:41,651
In fact, this woman I'm drawing right now
has thigh-high boots.
616
00:40:41,733 --> 00:40:43,863
But I decided against
making them high-heeled
617
00:40:43,943 --> 00:40:47,663
because it's very hard
to fight crime in high heels.
618
00:40:47,739 --> 00:40:52,909
I brought my idea for a comic
to Jim Shooter,
619
00:40:52,994 --> 00:40:57,504
and the idea was to tie it in
with Marvel and their past,
620
00:40:57,582 --> 00:41:02,092
that my heroine Misty
would be the niece of Millie the Model.
621
00:41:02,170 --> 00:41:04,840
And so he said,
"Let's do a six-part miniseries."
622
00:41:04,923 --> 00:41:07,433
And that's what I did. Meet Misty.
623
00:41:07,509 --> 00:41:12,139
And unfortunately, what happened
was that, at that point,
624
00:41:12,222 --> 00:41:15,982
you could only buy comics
in comic book stores.
625
00:41:16,434 --> 00:41:19,444
And the comic book stores
were all superhero,
626
00:41:19,521 --> 00:41:24,691
and so they didn't wanna carry our books,
and they would order maybe two copies.
627
00:41:24,776 --> 00:41:29,066
And when those two copies sold out,
they'd go, "Phew, got rid of those."
628
00:41:29,155 --> 00:41:30,525
And they wouldn't reorder.
629
00:41:30,615 --> 00:41:32,865
But that's what killed the books.
630
00:41:32,951 --> 00:41:37,911
My editor, Ann Nocenti,
every week she would mail me
631
00:41:37,997 --> 00:41:43,037
a manila envelope stuffed with
letters and designs from little girls,
632
00:41:43,128 --> 00:41:45,918
and they would not write to me,
but they would write to Misty.
633
00:41:46,006 --> 00:41:51,216
"Dear, Misty. I love your book,
but I can never find it."
634
00:41:51,970 --> 00:41:54,680
Karyn Bryant here at Marvel Comics
talking with some more guys.
635
00:41:54,764 --> 00:41:59,644
Now, exactly how many
comic books are in the Marvel library?
636
00:41:59,728 --> 00:42:01,348
Oh, you mean currently put out?
637
00:42:01,438 --> 00:42:03,228
-[Bryant] Yeah.
-About 200.
638
00:42:08,820 --> 00:42:12,410
[Kidman] In the late 1980s
and the early 1990s,
639
00:42:12,490 --> 00:42:14,830
we saw the rise of the graphic novel.
640
00:42:17,704 --> 00:42:22,794
And the graphic novel made space
for comic books in bookstores,
641
00:42:22,876 --> 00:42:26,376
which is not a place
that comic books had ever been before.
642
00:42:28,298 --> 00:42:29,968
[male editor] In the '80s,
643
00:42:30,050 --> 00:42:33,550
I know that you'll probably
remember, where did we buy comic books?
644
00:42:33,636 --> 00:42:36,506
[Kidman] And once comic books
were in bookstores,
645
00:42:36,598 --> 00:42:38,978
they were accessible to women again.
646
00:42:39,059 --> 00:42:43,649
So, all of a sudden,
this female market arose
647
00:42:43,730 --> 00:42:47,150
that just hadn't been noticed before.
648
00:42:47,233 --> 00:42:51,113
And I think that that really caught
the attention of comic book publishers.
649
00:42:51,196 --> 00:42:54,816
That there was the potential
for this girl comic book audience,
650
00:42:54,908 --> 00:42:57,828
a potential that had always been there,
651
00:42:57,911 --> 00:43:01,161
but that they had been
really just overlooking.
652
00:43:06,503 --> 00:43:10,723
An editor from Marvel
e-mailed me one day and said,
653
00:43:10,799 --> 00:43:13,259
"Hey, we have this anthology
we're working on
654
00:43:13,343 --> 00:43:15,053
and we have this story.
655
00:43:15,136 --> 00:43:18,556
It's a Rocket Raccoon,
Tippy-Toe Squirrel team up.
656
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:20,270
Would you be interested?"
657
00:43:20,350 --> 00:43:26,690
And first I just stepped away
from my computer and screamed for a while
658
00:43:26,773 --> 00:43:30,193
'cause, you know, it was like...
659
00:43:31,653 --> 00:43:35,203
I'm just this random webcomic creator.
660
00:43:35,281 --> 00:43:42,121
An e-mail from Marvel
is beyond anything that I anticipated.
661
00:43:42,747 --> 00:43:46,077
And, of course,
when I finally settled down,
662
00:43:46,167 --> 00:43:49,747
I went back and said,
"Yes, of course." Like, "I will do this."
663
00:43:49,838 --> 00:43:52,128
This story is mine.
664
00:43:57,512 --> 00:44:01,682
I think it's really hilarious
that they offered me Rocket and Tippy-Toe.
665
00:44:01,766 --> 00:44:06,726
The editor was Kathleen Wisneski,
and I wonder if she looked at my portfolio
666
00:44:06,813 --> 00:44:09,153
and was like,
"Oh, yeah, she loves animals."
667
00:44:09,232 --> 00:44:14,782
Like, I really appreciated that, actually,
because I do love talking animals.
668
00:44:14,863 --> 00:44:16,823
I was like, "Yes. This is totally my jam."
669
00:44:17,323 --> 00:44:19,283
Marvel, actually,
gave me a lot of freedom.
670
00:44:19,367 --> 00:44:21,367
A lot more freedom than I expected.
671
00:44:21,453 --> 00:44:22,793
They kinda just said, you know,
672
00:44:22,871 --> 00:44:27,171
"Here's where Rocket and Tippy are
in the current continuity and go."
673
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:39,760
When the conversation turned to
the first black women writing for Marvel,
674
00:44:39,846 --> 00:44:42,926
you know, Roxane Gay, Yona Harvey, me,
675
00:44:43,558 --> 00:44:46,898
it was just, I don't know,
this surreal feeling of, "No way.
676
00:44:46,978 --> 00:44:49,938
Like, that can't be possible.
677
00:44:50,023 --> 00:44:54,783
Marvel has been in existence
for over 70 years.
678
00:44:54,861 --> 00:44:57,241
How are we the first?"
679
00:44:59,949 --> 00:45:02,199
So Marvel's Spider-Man department
came to me
680
00:45:02,285 --> 00:45:05,075
and told me
about their Spider-Geddon event,
681
00:45:05,163 --> 00:45:09,633
and they basically asked me
to pitch some ideas.
682
00:45:09,709 --> 00:45:14,839
They told me, "We want you to do
a character that you're excited about."
683
00:45:14,923 --> 00:45:19,803
And so, I had pitched Spider-Byte,
684
00:45:19,886 --> 00:45:25,266
and that's B-Y-T-E,
as this digital Spider-Woman.
685
00:45:25,350 --> 00:45:26,850
I thought it was a really cool concept
686
00:45:26,935 --> 00:45:31,605
because we have all these
spider characters in the real world,
687
00:45:31,690 --> 00:45:35,820
and we didn't really have
a superhero for the virtual world.
688
00:45:35,902 --> 00:45:42,662
And it was also an opportunity to
make a black woman as a spider character.
689
00:45:44,494 --> 00:45:48,874
Putting any story out there
is always, kind of, a leap of faith.
690
00:45:48,957 --> 00:45:50,997
It's always a huge risk.
691
00:45:51,084 --> 00:45:55,094
In particular, a character that
the Marvel Universe had not seen before.
692
00:45:55,171 --> 00:45:57,511
And so that kinda felt like...
693
00:45:58,883 --> 00:46:03,183
putting my imagination on the line
with thousands of people.
694
00:46:09,060 --> 00:46:10,730
[Amanat] Working at Marvel is actually--
695
00:46:10,812 --> 00:46:14,572
It's like a pretty standard office job
in a lot of ways,
696
00:46:14,649 --> 00:46:18,699
except you get to wear
comic book T-shirts and sneakers,
697
00:46:18,778 --> 00:46:21,108
and you have
all this incredible artwork around you.
698
00:46:21,197 --> 00:46:22,697
-Hi. Do you need me?
-[worker laughing]
699
00:46:22,782 --> 00:46:28,252
[Amanat] So the job of a comic book editor
is very similar to, like, a producer.
700
00:46:28,329 --> 00:46:31,209
It is very much
a relationship with the creators
701
00:46:31,291 --> 00:46:34,041
that you have on a particular series,
702
00:46:34,127 --> 00:46:39,297
and really bringing out, I think,
the best of everyone, individually,
703
00:46:39,382 --> 00:46:41,932
into one collective story.
704
00:46:42,010 --> 00:46:43,350
Ooh!
705
00:46:45,013 --> 00:46:51,103
Captain Marvel was the first, I think,
female-led title that I edited fully.
706
00:46:51,186 --> 00:46:53,976
We didn't really have
any other female-led comics.
707
00:46:54,064 --> 00:46:56,274
Like, women were on team books,
708
00:46:56,358 --> 00:47:00,738
but we didn't have any solo series
featuring a female character.
709
00:47:05,325 --> 00:47:06,905
[DeConnick] When I came to Ms. Marvel,
710
00:47:06,993 --> 00:47:11,003
it was this really Machiavellian choice,
to be honest.
711
00:47:11,081 --> 00:47:15,001
I had no particular like, "Oh, I have
a passion to write this character."
712
00:47:15,085 --> 00:47:16,955
It was, "I need an ongoing."
713
00:47:18,797 --> 00:47:23,177
Carol Danvers is Ms. Marvel
for a number of years,
714
00:47:23,259 --> 00:47:26,259
but during that time
she doesn't have a lot of agency.
715
00:47:26,346 --> 00:47:29,716
Not a lot of women characters in comics
had a lot of agency at the time,
716
00:47:29,808 --> 00:47:34,018
and, so I pitched Carol Danvers
as Chuck Yeager.
717
00:47:34,104 --> 00:47:36,984
Someone out there pushing boundaries,
taking chances,
718
00:47:37,065 --> 00:47:38,475
walking away from the burning plane.
719
00:47:41,528 --> 00:47:45,618
I called up Steve Wacker, and was like,
"I wanna pitch you a Ms. Marvel series."
720
00:47:45,699 --> 00:47:47,199
And he was like, "Okay."
721
00:47:47,701 --> 00:47:53,751
Steve was into it, and he championed it
up the chain, and then he called me
722
00:47:54,207 --> 00:47:59,297
and he says,
"Yeah, so, you're not writing Ms. Marvel."
723
00:47:59,379 --> 00:48:02,299
"Okay, well, that's, that's cool.
You know, I mean...
724
00:48:03,883 --> 00:48:05,223
We'll move on to the next series."
725
00:48:05,301 --> 00:48:08,431
And he's like,
"'Cause you're writing Captain Marvel!"
726
00:48:08,513 --> 00:48:09,393
I was like, "Really, dude?"
727
00:48:10,765 --> 00:48:11,885
And then he was like,
728
00:48:11,975 --> 00:48:15,475
"And as long as we're going to do this,
we should put her in pants."
729
00:48:16,021 --> 00:48:17,811
And actually, that was in an e-mail,
730
00:48:17,897 --> 00:48:19,897
and I have the e-mail I wrote back to him,
and I was like,
731
00:48:19,983 --> 00:48:22,493
"I can't tell if you're kidding."
732
00:48:32,579 --> 00:48:35,539
[Amanat] Kelly Sue DeConnick,
who's the writer on Captain Marvel,
733
00:48:35,623 --> 00:48:40,633
did such an incredible job
creating this amazing female character
734
00:48:40,712 --> 00:48:43,342
that is so much more relatable.
735
00:48:44,758 --> 00:48:50,598
She was no longer created in a way
that was inherently misogynistic.
736
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:52,470
She wasn't sexualized.
737
00:48:52,557 --> 00:48:56,687
Her rendering was more about her being
a strong fighter-pilot than anything else,
738
00:48:56,770 --> 00:48:59,230
which was so much more
closely linked to her identity.
739
00:48:59,856 --> 00:49:01,396
This was not a Sana note.
740
00:49:01,483 --> 00:49:04,903
It came from somebody else,
but was delivered through her.
741
00:49:05,695 --> 00:49:08,235
There's a monologue I wrote for Carol
where it's like,
742
00:49:08,323 --> 00:49:11,243
"Have you ever seen a little girl
run so fast she falls down?
743
00:49:11,326 --> 00:49:13,656
There's a moment
before she hits the ground,
744
00:49:13,745 --> 00:49:17,615
a moment before all of her doubts
and fears catch up to her,
745
00:49:17,707 --> 00:49:20,627
and in that moment, she flies.
In that moment every little girl flies."
746
00:49:21,961 --> 00:49:24,801
And the note was,
747
00:49:24,881 --> 00:49:29,471
"Could we change it to every little kid?
So we don't alienate the male reader."
748
00:49:29,886 --> 00:49:33,806
Uh, and I, like, lost my mind.
749
00:49:33,890 --> 00:49:36,180
So I'm like, you know, "Can you call me?"
750
00:49:36,267 --> 00:49:39,267
And so Sana calls. And I'm like,
"Yeah, I am not changing that."
751
00:49:39,354 --> 00:49:40,194
She's like, "Okay."
752
00:49:41,481 --> 00:49:43,481
[Amanat] There's so many things
that make a difference
753
00:49:43,566 --> 00:49:45,686
when you have a female writer
and a female editor,
754
00:49:45,777 --> 00:49:49,777
where you can get away
with pushing back on a line that says,
755
00:49:49,864 --> 00:49:52,284
"Hey, look. I understand
the need to be more inclusive,
756
00:49:52,367 --> 00:49:54,487
but the focus right now is on women
757
00:49:54,577 --> 00:49:57,997
because we have not focused on women
in a very long time,
758
00:49:58,081 --> 00:50:00,581
or in a way that we should be
focusing on women."
759
00:50:01,584 --> 00:50:04,504
Kelly Sue and I would try to figure out
what are the elements that we need to do
760
00:50:04,587 --> 00:50:07,377
to make sure that we are telling a story
761
00:50:07,465 --> 00:50:11,135
that is obviously
going to sell like gangbusters
762
00:50:11,219 --> 00:50:15,469
but at the same time keep
pushing Carol's story forward
763
00:50:15,557 --> 00:50:16,927
and her character forward.
764
00:50:17,017 --> 00:50:20,477
Because we needed to start telling
those human elements of Carol
765
00:50:20,562 --> 00:50:22,402
because I think
that's what really makes her work.
766
00:50:25,066 --> 00:50:27,686
[DeConnick] I wanted Carol to have friends
that were older than her,
767
00:50:27,777 --> 00:50:29,947
that were younger than her
and that were her same age,
768
00:50:30,030 --> 00:50:34,330
and I also wanted Carol to be able
to compete with other women
769
00:50:34,409 --> 00:50:37,409
in a way that did not destroy
their relationships.
770
00:50:38,038 --> 00:50:40,918
We usually see women competing in a way
771
00:50:40,999 --> 00:50:43,249
where they're pretending
that they're not competing.
772
00:50:43,335 --> 00:50:45,415
Right. It's all very, like,
"Oh, you." "No, you."
773
00:50:45,503 --> 00:50:48,883
And usually competing
for the attention or approval of a man,
774
00:50:48,965 --> 00:50:53,505
and it's always very, like,
backhanded and conniving,
775
00:50:53,595 --> 00:50:57,425
and the fact is,
that is not my experience of the world.
776
00:50:57,515 --> 00:51:01,345
That is not my experience
of the women in my life,
777
00:51:01,811 --> 00:51:06,231
and yet I never see it reflected
in my culture.
778
00:51:06,316 --> 00:51:10,946
So I wanted to see Carol competing
with female colleagues
779
00:51:11,029 --> 00:51:14,369
the same way
that I compete with female colleagues,
780
00:51:15,033 --> 00:51:18,703
but we support one another,
and we're happy when somebody succeeds.
781
00:51:24,793 --> 00:51:26,883
[Amanat]
As soon as Captain Marvel came out,
782
00:51:26,961 --> 00:51:31,681
and Kelly Sue started nicknaming
her fan community the "Carol Corps"
783
00:51:31,758 --> 00:51:33,088
in a very loving way,
784
00:51:33,176 --> 00:51:40,016
I really witnessed the transformation
of what a Marvel fan was.
785
00:51:41,226 --> 00:51:43,396
It was really more
about supporting one another.
786
00:51:43,478 --> 00:51:47,358
We were supporting them because we were
creating a version of Carol Danvers
787
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:50,030
that women really wanted to see,
young girls wanted to see.
788
00:51:50,110 --> 00:51:52,990
And they were supporting us
by buying our comics
789
00:51:53,071 --> 00:51:55,821
because people really believed
that women weren't reading comics,
790
00:51:55,907 --> 00:51:57,027
women didn't like comics.
791
00:51:57,117 --> 00:52:02,037
And it made us realize, as a company,
that there was this audience out there
792
00:52:02,122 --> 00:52:06,962
who was paying attention, and, finally,
there was a character that was for them.
793
00:52:19,639 --> 00:52:24,479
We saw this really great spike
in excitement
794
00:52:24,561 --> 00:52:27,521
and love and passion with Captain Marvel.
795
00:52:27,605 --> 00:52:31,185
And it really, sort of,
inspired us to do more
796
00:52:31,276 --> 00:52:35,066
because we knew there's a fan community
out there that's activated.
797
00:52:35,155 --> 00:52:37,775
We can create more content for them.
798
00:52:37,866 --> 00:52:41,536
You know, Captain Marvel was, sort of,
that signpost of change.
799
00:52:45,248 --> 00:52:48,838
I had a conversation with my old boss,
Stephen Wacker.
800
00:52:48,918 --> 00:52:53,508
We were talking a lot about my childhood
and talking about the experiences I had,
801
00:52:53,590 --> 00:52:57,010
how I went to prom in a piece of cloth
I had wrapped around myself
802
00:52:57,093 --> 00:52:59,553
because I couldn't find any clothing
that was appropriate
803
00:52:59,637 --> 00:53:02,177
for a young Muslim woman to wear to prom.
804
00:53:02,265 --> 00:53:06,015
Prom, which, by the way, I went by myself
because I was not allowed to date.
805
00:53:07,354 --> 00:53:10,274
And running, like, doing track
while I was fasting, and just--
806
00:53:10,357 --> 00:53:14,317
He was just really interested in the fact
that I lived such a distinct experience
807
00:53:14,402 --> 00:53:16,362
that not many people really talked about.
808
00:53:16,446 --> 00:53:17,486
And he walked in, and he's like,
809
00:53:17,572 --> 00:53:20,742
"You know, I was really thinking a lot
about your stories,
810
00:53:20,825 --> 00:53:25,205
and it would be great if we had
a character that was based on you.
811
00:53:25,288 --> 00:53:27,618
Based on the young Sanas of the world."
812
00:53:27,707 --> 00:53:29,457
And I was like,
"Are we allowed to do this?"
813
00:53:29,542 --> 00:53:33,052
Like, just the concept. I didn't think
that anyone would be interested.
814
00:53:33,129 --> 00:53:35,049
And he was like, "Let's do it."
815
00:53:47,602 --> 00:53:48,942
We went straight into pitch mode,
816
00:53:49,020 --> 00:53:52,480
and the first person that I thought of
was G. Willow Wilson,
817
00:53:52,565 --> 00:53:57,395
who was a comic book writer
and a novelist and a Muslim.
818
00:53:57,779 --> 00:54:02,029
She called me out of the blue,
and she said to me,
819
00:54:02,117 --> 00:54:08,207
"Hey. We want to create a new,
young American-Muslim superheroine
820
00:54:08,289 --> 00:54:10,249
and put her on her own ongoing series.
821
00:54:10,333 --> 00:54:13,503
Do you want to write this book
and help develop this character?"
822
00:54:14,254 --> 00:54:17,094
And I was pretty convinced
that they were joking.
823
00:54:17,173 --> 00:54:18,263
[chuckles]
824
00:54:18,341 --> 00:54:22,851
Because I said there's no way
that you ran that past Marvel Comics
825
00:54:22,929 --> 00:54:25,809
and they said, "Yes."
How often does that happen?
826
00:54:27,517 --> 00:54:29,437
I didn't say yes right away.
827
00:54:29,519 --> 00:54:33,109
To be called up by two editors
at Marvel and told,
828
00:54:33,189 --> 00:54:36,649
"Yes, we want to put a Muslim editor
and a Muslim writer
829
00:54:36,735 --> 00:54:38,565
on a book about a Muslim character,"
830
00:54:39,279 --> 00:54:41,069
I was like,
"You're going to have to hire an intern
831
00:54:41,156 --> 00:54:42,616
just to open up all this hate mail."
832
00:54:42,699 --> 00:54:46,239
You're gonna--
It just seemed like waving a red flag
833
00:54:46,327 --> 00:54:51,617
in front of all of the people who thought
that people like me and Sana
834
00:54:51,708 --> 00:54:53,668
should not be in comics at all.
835
00:54:54,336 --> 00:54:59,756
But Sana was so driven about this series.
836
00:54:59,841 --> 00:55:04,761
She was so prepared to usher it through,
to make sure that it was done right,
837
00:55:04,846 --> 00:55:09,226
to oversee all the nitty-gritty,
to run interference if necessary,
838
00:55:09,309 --> 00:55:12,479
that I was just, kind of, swept along.
I was like, "Yeah, absolutely.
839
00:55:12,562 --> 00:55:14,772
If you're this committed,
I'm this committed. Let's do it."
840
00:55:15,565 --> 00:55:17,395
[Amanat] She was like,
"All right. Let's try this out."
841
00:55:17,484 --> 00:55:22,324
And me and her kinda went back and forth
with different iterations of Kamala,
842
00:55:22,405 --> 00:55:24,065
who would become Kamala Khan.
843
00:55:24,699 --> 00:55:26,909
What we realized was telling those stories
844
00:55:26,993 --> 00:55:32,253
about being young and feeling different
and feeling like an outcast
845
00:55:32,332 --> 00:55:35,422
and then suddenly being activated
846
00:55:35,502 --> 00:55:37,672
and having powers
and finding that you have powers,
847
00:55:37,754 --> 00:55:40,384
that's such a great story
about growing up,
848
00:55:40,465 --> 00:55:44,465
and that's an important story to tell
about being a minority at the same time.
849
00:55:45,178 --> 00:55:49,468
We were trying to figure out ways
to tie this character
850
00:55:49,557 --> 00:55:56,267
into the broader Marvel Universe that
would increase its chances of success.
851
00:55:56,356 --> 00:55:58,856
Because, especially at the time,
the understanding was
852
00:55:58,942 --> 00:56:02,402
that new characters
do not do terribly well.
853
00:56:02,487 --> 00:56:05,867
And if you add on any kind of modifier,
854
00:56:05,949 --> 00:56:09,989
if they are female,
if they're from an unusual background,
855
00:56:10,078 --> 00:56:13,868
it just gets worse and worse and worse,
and this was just, sort of, the math.
856
00:56:13,957 --> 00:56:17,587
And so we've decided
to make her a legacy character,
857
00:56:17,669 --> 00:56:20,259
to, sort of,
tie her to the legacy of Carol Danvers.
858
00:56:20,922 --> 00:56:23,432
[Amanat] Kamala Khan is
this young South Asian Muslim girl
859
00:56:23,508 --> 00:56:28,638
living in Jersey City, and she looks
across the river every single day,
860
00:56:28,722 --> 00:56:35,102
and she sees these beautiful, strong
heroes saving the world every single day,
861
00:56:35,186 --> 00:56:39,516
and one of those characters
is Captain Marvel.
862
00:56:39,607 --> 00:56:43,357
And Captain Marvel is this tall,
beautiful, blonde woman
863
00:56:43,445 --> 00:56:47,025
who makes saving the day look so easy
864
00:56:47,115 --> 00:56:50,735
and kicking the butt look so impressive.
865
00:56:50,827 --> 00:56:53,537
And for her, that's the ideal.
866
00:56:53,621 --> 00:56:56,081
And when you're, of course,
a young brown woman...
867
00:56:57,250 --> 00:56:59,670
that's, kind of,
all you see out in the world,
868
00:56:59,753 --> 00:57:03,553
is this ideal
that does not look anything like you.
869
00:57:03,631 --> 00:57:07,931
And I think the first time
that Kamala Khan gets powers,
870
00:57:08,011 --> 00:57:12,431
her go-to is to be become
exactly like Carol Danvers,
871
00:57:12,515 --> 00:57:17,845
to the point that she transforms
into the literal version of Carol Danvers,
872
00:57:17,937 --> 00:57:22,937
the version of Carol that was popular
for so long, and that was intentional.
873
00:57:26,946 --> 00:57:29,566
The hardest thing
is choosing to look like yourself
874
00:57:29,657 --> 00:57:31,947
because you don't feel
like it's impressive enough
875
00:57:32,035 --> 00:57:34,035
or beautiful enough or strong enough,
876
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:36,370
because that's what you're always told,
877
00:57:36,456 --> 00:57:40,536
and so her challenge and her journey
is kinda coming back to herself.
878
00:57:46,549 --> 00:57:51,469
When we were, sort of,
gaming out the first year of the series,
879
00:57:51,554 --> 00:57:55,774
the one question that Sana would ask me
over and over was,
880
00:57:55,850 --> 00:58:00,150
"What is the 'With great power,
comes great responsibility' moment
881
00:58:00,230 --> 00:58:04,480
for this character? And how is it
different because of who she is?"
882
00:58:04,567 --> 00:58:07,737
"What is the Muslim 'With great power,
comes great responsibility'?"
883
00:58:08,655 --> 00:58:09,905
And it drove me nuts.
884
00:58:09,989 --> 00:58:14,789
I mean, I spent months trying to figure
out even what the heck she was asking.
885
00:58:14,869 --> 00:58:15,869
[chuckles]
886
00:58:15,954 --> 00:58:18,254
And really drilling down
and getting to that point,
887
00:58:18,331 --> 00:58:22,961
trying to figure out how it would look
and what it would sound like.
888
00:58:23,044 --> 00:58:25,304
And, you know, I did eventually get there,
889
00:58:25,380 --> 00:58:30,180
and it's, sort of, that moment
in the first arc, when Zoe is drowning.
890
00:58:30,885 --> 00:58:32,595
And Kamala has just gotten her powers.
891
00:58:32,679 --> 00:58:34,259
She still isn't really
in full control of them.
892
00:58:34,347 --> 00:58:36,677
She doesn't know
what she's supposed to do with them.
893
00:58:36,766 --> 00:58:39,016
She doesn't know who she is now.
894
00:58:39,102 --> 00:58:41,352
And she has to make
a split-second decision.
895
00:58:41,438 --> 00:58:46,188
And she thinks of a line
that is very important to Muslims...
896
00:58:48,194 --> 00:58:51,954
which is, "To kill one person
is to kill all of mankind,
897
00:58:52,032 --> 00:58:56,162
and to save one person
is to save all of mankind."
898
00:58:56,244 --> 00:58:58,584
And that, to her, is her motive.
899
00:58:58,663 --> 00:59:01,713
That, yes,
she has a duty to save this person.
900
00:59:01,791 --> 00:59:04,591
You don't have to save the whole world.
You can't save the whole world.
901
00:59:04,669 --> 00:59:07,759
But you are responsible for the people
in front of you right now.
902
00:59:13,636 --> 00:59:16,506
[Amanat] When we were trying
to develop Ms. Marvel and her power set,
903
00:59:16,598 --> 00:59:20,348
Willow was really adamant that Ms. Marvel
didn't have "pretty powers."
904
00:59:20,435 --> 00:59:22,645
She would say, "Traditionally,
a lot of our female characters
905
00:59:22,729 --> 00:59:26,819
either had sparkly powers
or some mind control abilities."
906
00:59:26,900 --> 00:59:30,650
So that was incredibly important to her,
to kind of break the mold in that regard.
907
00:59:30,737 --> 00:59:36,737
And the decision for Kamala
to figure out how she uses her powers
908
00:59:36,826 --> 00:59:40,786
and how she embraces her powers
and figures out her identity
909
00:59:40,872 --> 00:59:45,592
was the journey of the story
that we felt was the most powerful.
910
00:59:57,847 --> 01:00:01,937
The response to Ms. Marvel
has been incredible.
911
01:00:02,018 --> 01:00:04,148
As soon as the series was announced,
912
01:00:04,229 --> 01:00:08,069
and just the character of Kamala Khan
came out in the world,
913
01:00:08,149 --> 01:00:10,319
we had people sending us fan mail.
914
01:00:10,402 --> 01:00:14,362
It was trending before Ms. Marvel #1
had actually ever come out.
915
01:00:14,864 --> 01:00:17,874
[girl 1] My parents are from Pakistan.
I love Kamala Khan.
916
01:00:17,951 --> 01:00:19,701
All of the issues she's going through
917
01:00:19,786 --> 01:00:22,616
are the same ones
I was experiencing every day.
918
01:00:22,706 --> 01:00:25,206
[girl 2] I am very much looking forward
to this character
919
01:00:25,291 --> 01:00:27,381
because it has never actually
crossed my mind
920
01:00:27,460 --> 01:00:29,460
that someone like me could be a superhero.
921
01:00:29,546 --> 01:00:32,836
[girl 3] Thank you so very much
for Ms. Marvel.
922
01:00:32,924 --> 01:00:35,144
[Amanat] People had no idea
who Kamala Khan was.
923
01:00:35,218 --> 01:00:38,848
There was no concept of the story,
no concept of the supporting characters.
924
01:00:38,930 --> 01:00:41,560
And there was so much love
in the idea of it,
925
01:00:41,641 --> 01:00:43,771
and I realized
there was a lot of importance
926
01:00:43,852 --> 01:00:47,062
behind the character itself
because of what it meant.
927
01:00:48,231 --> 01:00:54,611
It was a stunning upset,
not just of general industry expectations,
928
01:00:54,696 --> 01:00:57,566
but of Sana's and my own expectations,
929
01:00:57,657 --> 01:01:00,487
when that first issue
went into a second printing.
930
01:01:00,577 --> 01:01:05,287
And then into a third printing. And then
into a fourth, fifth and sixth printing.
931
01:01:05,373 --> 01:01:07,043
We were interviewed by The New York Times,
932
01:01:07,125 --> 01:01:12,335
and there were people in cosplay after
the first week that it had been on stands.
933
01:01:12,422 --> 01:01:14,762
Shock doesn't cover it.
Like, I still haven't woken up.
934
01:01:14,841 --> 01:01:16,931
I'm convinced this is all a dream.
935
01:01:17,594 --> 01:01:20,104
[Amanat] No way in my wildest of dreams
936
01:01:20,180 --> 01:01:22,350
would I imagine that
a young Muslim superhero
937
01:01:22,432 --> 01:01:25,442
would be one of the most popular
new characters that we would have.
938
01:01:27,687 --> 01:01:31,687
I was very lucky to be invited
to the White House,
939
01:01:31,775 --> 01:01:35,195
when Barack Obama was president,
for Women's History Month
940
01:01:35,278 --> 01:01:39,158
celebrating different women
from different fields across the country.
941
01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:41,370
And they were like,
"Hey. Would you be interested
942
01:01:41,451 --> 01:01:45,001
in introducing
the President of the United States?"
943
01:01:45,080 --> 01:01:48,540
And I was like, "What?"
And, of course, I said yes.
944
01:01:48,625 --> 01:01:51,455
Thank you, Sana, for your incredible work.
945
01:01:51,544 --> 01:01:54,764
Ms. Marvel may be
your comic book creation,
946
01:01:54,839 --> 01:01:58,889
but I think for a lot
of young boys and girls,
947
01:01:58,968 --> 01:02:02,808
Sana's a real-life superhero.
948
01:02:02,889 --> 01:02:05,059
["On + Off" by Maggie Rogers playing]
949
01:02:14,484 --> 01:02:16,744
[Amanat] I saw the impact
that we could make
950
01:02:16,820 --> 01:02:18,860
with the types of stories
that we were telling.
951
01:02:18,947 --> 01:02:21,987
And Kamala Khan was a very natural segue,
952
01:02:22,075 --> 01:02:25,615
and I didn't even realize
I was building to it my entire life.
953
01:02:25,704 --> 01:02:28,584
It was everything
that I had always wanted to do.
954
01:02:28,665 --> 01:02:33,415
And I think once she came into the world,
it opened up this door of possibilities.
955
01:02:33,503 --> 01:02:36,093
And what that's really allowed us to do
956
01:02:36,172 --> 01:02:41,552
is to connect with a lot of different
creators that we never would have before.
957
01:02:46,641 --> 01:02:49,891
[Magruder] Marvel Rising is a new series.
958
01:02:49,978 --> 01:02:54,818
They're this new generation of superhero
in the Marvel Universe.
959
01:02:54,899 --> 01:02:58,529
We have these hyper-intelligent
female characters now.
960
01:02:58,611 --> 01:03:02,781
Getting to work on these characters
just feels like a momentous opportunity
961
01:03:02,866 --> 01:03:05,116
that I didn't expect to get.
962
01:03:06,244 --> 01:03:08,464
Even when I first started
coming to comics,
963
01:03:08,538 --> 01:03:12,788
it was still very white and very male,
and so a lot of this change
964
01:03:12,876 --> 01:03:16,206
of having prominent characters of color,
965
01:03:16,296 --> 01:03:19,546
especially women and girls
of color, is very new,
966
01:03:19,632 --> 01:03:22,142
just in the last five or so years.
967
01:03:23,845 --> 01:03:26,095
I'm glad to be a part of this moment.
968
01:03:26,181 --> 01:03:28,311
This is what I was waiting for.
969
01:03:30,060 --> 01:03:34,230
The current state of comics
is beyond my wildest dreams.
970
01:03:34,314 --> 01:03:36,824
I really never dreamed
971
01:03:36,900 --> 01:03:42,360
there would be so many women doing comics
and so many girl-friendly comics.
972
01:03:43,531 --> 01:03:46,241
[Kidman] Creativity and innovation
973
01:03:46,326 --> 01:03:51,996
and access to new kinds of creators,
to more diverse creators,
974
01:03:52,082 --> 01:03:55,042
tends to come from the margins.
975
01:03:55,126 --> 01:03:57,086
[Amanat] Women have been here.
They've always been here.
976
01:03:57,962 --> 01:04:00,592
Women helped build the legacy of Marvel.
977
01:04:00,674 --> 01:04:05,514
It just stuns me when I look
at how far society has come
978
01:04:05,595 --> 01:04:07,215
and how far the industry has come.
979
01:04:07,305 --> 01:04:10,635
These days I think
there are just as many young women
980
01:04:10,725 --> 01:04:13,435
as young men interested
in careers in comics.
981
01:04:13,520 --> 01:04:18,690
But I've certainly had women
who took bullets so I wouldn't have to,
982
01:04:18,775 --> 01:04:21,985
and I hope I've done that
for the women coming after me.
983
01:04:22,070 --> 01:04:25,200
[Nocenti] I think what's great
about the women that are coming in now,
984
01:04:25,281 --> 01:04:30,411
they are trailblazers in that
they're writing narratives for females.
985
01:04:30,495 --> 01:04:35,075
How can you relate to a story
if you can't see yourself in it?
986
01:04:39,713 --> 01:04:44,803
[Amanat] It took me a long time
to find strength in my own identity
987
01:04:44,884 --> 01:04:49,394
and to really feel more confident
in who I am and what I belong to.
988
01:04:51,057 --> 01:04:54,557
[Magruder] It's great
to see women excelling at superheroes.
989
01:04:55,854 --> 01:05:00,234
I think this conversation now
about mirrors versus windows
990
01:05:00,316 --> 01:05:02,736
and, like, seeing yourself in story,
991
01:05:02,819 --> 01:05:07,409
it did an amazing thing
for comics and for women readers.
992
01:05:07,490 --> 01:05:11,750
But we could still do more
to see more disability,
993
01:05:11,828 --> 01:05:14,498
to see more open queerness
in these comics,
994
01:05:14,581 --> 01:05:18,541
more Asian and Latinx
characters and writers.
995
01:05:18,626 --> 01:05:23,006
Why settle for a little
when you can just open the floodgates?
996
01:05:23,089 --> 01:05:25,799
["Back In My Body"
by Maggie Rogers playing]
997
01:05:28,636 --> 01:05:31,256
[no audible dialogue]
998
01:05:31,348 --> 01:05:33,558
[Magruder] My mother, she's so supportive.
999
01:05:33,641 --> 01:05:36,981
She lets me have the freedom
to do what I'm going to do.
1000
01:05:37,062 --> 01:05:41,322
And I can always call her
for a pep talk if I need it.
1001
01:05:42,609 --> 01:05:46,949
Now, my mom, when she sees
those old critical friends, she can say,
1002
01:05:47,030 --> 01:05:50,120
"Oh, yeah.
My daughter's working for Disney,"
1003
01:05:50,200 --> 01:05:53,750
or "She's working for Marvel, you know.
She's doing pretty fine."
1004
01:05:53,828 --> 01:05:56,368
And, you know, they didn't understand
what I was doing before,
1005
01:05:56,456 --> 01:05:58,876
but they definitely know those names.
1006
01:05:58,958 --> 01:06:01,798
So, yeah. We had the last laugh.
1007
01:06:03,546 --> 01:06:05,626
[Amanat] My dad, when I was younger,
always told me,
1008
01:06:05,715 --> 01:06:10,795
"Whatever you do, make sure
that you are trying to help people."
1009
01:06:11,429 --> 01:06:15,389
What's really satisfying
about having Ms. Marvel out there
1010
01:06:15,475 --> 01:06:18,135
is that it really directly
impacts my family.
1011
01:06:18,728 --> 01:06:20,228
My nieces and my nephews,
1012
01:06:20,313 --> 01:06:24,443
they now have this character
that reminds them of themselves.
1013
01:06:24,526 --> 01:06:26,356
Not even just for my nieces
and my nephews.
1014
01:06:26,444 --> 01:06:30,164
I just love that any kid is going to see
a character out there
1015
01:06:30,240 --> 01:06:32,280
and not just a part of everyday life.
1016
01:06:33,159 --> 01:06:37,579
["Back In My Body" continues playing]
1017
01:06:41,292 --> 01:06:44,212
[no audible dialogue]
1018
01:06:44,295 --> 01:06:49,925
[no audible dialogue]
1019
01:06:50,010 --> 01:06:52,010
[song continues]
1020
01:07:01,104 --> 01:07:04,114
[song fades out]
1021
01:07:16,536 --> 01:07:19,246
["Here We Go" playing]