1 00:00:58,493 --> 00:01:00,625 What have you heard about the legends 2 00:01:00,669 --> 00:01:02,758 surrounding the making of "The Wizard of Oz"? 3 00:01:02,801 --> 00:01:04,499 - Um... 4 00:01:04,542 --> 00:01:06,327 - I mean, there's just so many rumors in general 5 00:01:06,370 --> 00:01:08,155 about "The Wizard of Oz". 6 00:01:08,198 --> 00:01:09,678 - Oh, we could talk about that all day. 7 00:01:09,721 --> 00:01:11,114 I mean, I've researched this stuff 8 00:01:11,158 --> 00:01:12,768 since the time I was a little kid, 9 00:01:12,811 --> 00:01:14,726 - I'll get you, my pretty. 10 00:01:18,165 --> 00:01:20,515 - Definitely heard about the burning of Margaret Hamilton. 11 00:01:20,558 --> 00:01:22,125 - Yeah. Oof. 12 00:01:22,169 --> 00:01:24,214 - You know, she caught fire once unintentionally. 13 00:01:26,216 --> 00:01:28,131 - I definitely know of the makeup situation 14 00:01:28,175 --> 00:01:30,046 that happened with the Tin Man. 15 00:01:30,090 --> 00:01:32,179 - Heard about the Munchkin hanging. 16 00:01:32,222 --> 00:01:35,356 - I've heard that a small person hung themselves on set. 17 00:01:35,399 --> 00:01:37,836 - The list goes on and on and on and on and on. 18 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:39,751 I think it's a part of the legacy... 19 00:01:47,107 --> 00:01:48,978 I think that when some people look at films 20 00:01:49,021 --> 00:01:50,806 that are super beloved 21 00:01:52,547 --> 00:01:54,679 and they hear stories about the difficulties 22 00:01:54,723 --> 00:01:57,291 or the tragedies that happen on set, 23 00:01:58,814 --> 00:02:01,817 they then go on to ascribe that production as "cursed", 24 00:02:04,776 --> 00:02:06,952 because it's hard to hear these stories of tragedy. 25 00:02:06,996 --> 00:02:09,085 And you want to believe that at least someone 26 00:02:09,129 --> 00:02:11,740 or something is in charge 27 00:02:11,783 --> 00:02:13,568 because the reality is no one's in charge 28 00:02:13,611 --> 00:02:14,960 and the universe doesn't care about you, 29 00:02:15,004 --> 00:02:16,875 but that is too crushing 30 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:19,008 to encompass with our minds. 31 00:02:19,051 --> 00:02:21,358 So, we come up with ideas like that production is cursed, 32 00:02:21,402 --> 00:02:23,317 'cause it makes us feel a little bit better 33 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:25,928 about the terrible things that might have happened on the set. 34 00:02:28,060 --> 00:02:29,758 When I was five, 35 00:02:29,801 --> 00:02:31,542 I sat down and watched "Wizard of Oz". 36 00:02:32,717 --> 00:02:34,241 Everybody had a great night, 37 00:02:34,284 --> 00:02:36,460 but I had the life changing experience. 38 00:02:38,201 --> 00:02:41,204 The characters and the fantasy and the songs, 39 00:02:41,248 --> 00:02:43,554 but I just kind of bought into all of it. 40 00:02:44,947 --> 00:02:46,818 You don't choose these things, they choose you. 41 00:02:46,862 --> 00:02:49,473 And that's a statement that I think anybody watching this 42 00:02:49,517 --> 00:02:51,823 who has any kind of passion for anything can... 43 00:02:51,867 --> 00:02:54,565 can comprehend. 44 00:02:54,609 --> 00:02:56,088 What "The Wizard of Oz" is about 45 00:02:56,132 --> 00:02:58,221 is not a question I have actually considered. 46 00:02:58,265 --> 00:03:00,092 And that's amazing to me. 47 00:03:00,136 --> 00:03:02,269 - There are lots of theories. 48 00:03:02,312 --> 00:03:04,619 People thought that the Yellow Brick Road 49 00:03:04,662 --> 00:03:06,490 was something to do with the gold standard. 50 00:03:07,970 --> 00:03:10,059 Society had been through some really difficult times 51 00:03:10,102 --> 00:03:12,148 with the depression 52 00:03:12,192 --> 00:03:13,889 and then the war. 53 00:03:15,282 --> 00:03:18,241 People were forced to move all over the place. 54 00:03:18,285 --> 00:03:21,375 And then we still had lots of first-generation immigrants 55 00:03:21,418 --> 00:03:24,073 who'd come in in the 1910s and 20s. 56 00:03:24,116 --> 00:03:26,118 They had to leave their homes 57 00:03:26,162 --> 00:03:29,121 and knew they would never be able to go back. 58 00:03:29,165 --> 00:03:30,862 Here was Judy. 59 00:03:30,906 --> 00:03:32,908 She was disrupted. 60 00:03:32,951 --> 00:03:35,389 She was off in a whole 'nother world, 61 00:03:35,432 --> 00:03:37,391 just like the population of the country. 62 00:03:39,306 --> 00:03:42,178 And the whole tension was "she couldn't go home". 63 00:03:42,222 --> 00:03:44,006 - Close your eyes 64 00:03:44,049 --> 00:03:46,574 and tap your heels together, three times. 65 00:03:46,617 --> 00:03:48,706 - But suddenly through magic, 66 00:03:48,750 --> 00:03:50,578 she is able to go home 67 00:03:50,621 --> 00:03:52,536 and she is sort of like a surrogate 68 00:03:52,580 --> 00:03:54,277 for the American population. 69 00:03:54,321 --> 00:03:57,149 - There's no place like home. 70 00:03:57,193 --> 00:03:59,630 They went out of the movie 71 00:03:59,674 --> 00:04:01,937 with some sense of redemption. 72 00:04:01,980 --> 00:04:03,895 At least Judy got home. 73 00:04:06,333 --> 00:04:07,856 I think it's about the way 74 00:04:07,899 --> 00:04:09,988 in which human beings trust each other 75 00:04:10,032 --> 00:04:12,252 to lead each other through the world. 76 00:04:12,295 --> 00:04:14,079 Yeah. 77 00:04:14,123 --> 00:04:17,692 'Cause the Wizard's not inherently a bad guy, 78 00:04:17,735 --> 00:04:19,911 but he has a lot of power. 79 00:04:19,955 --> 00:04:22,436 And power corrupts. 80 00:04:22,479 --> 00:04:24,133 That's absolutely true. 81 00:04:25,830 --> 00:04:28,485 It was made in 1938 82 00:04:30,095 --> 00:04:34,535 and it opened in August 17th, 1939, 83 00:04:34,578 --> 00:04:38,365 and America was at the cusp of a World War. 84 00:04:39,975 --> 00:04:42,020 - Go, fly! Fly! 85 00:04:44,371 --> 00:04:46,590 - Fly! Fly! Fly! 86 00:04:46,634 --> 00:04:48,940 And that dark energy, 87 00:04:48,984 --> 00:04:51,334 it was part of the air they were breathing at that time. 88 00:04:53,162 --> 00:04:56,252 That beat of war was going on in the background. 89 00:04:56,296 --> 00:04:59,081 I mean, and they so much made it real 90 00:04:59,124 --> 00:05:01,475 with the Winkies marching like Nazis. 91 00:05:03,868 --> 00:05:05,740 "The Wizard of Oz" 92 00:05:05,783 --> 00:05:08,656 was a hopeful outcome of that dark energy 93 00:05:09,918 --> 00:05:12,094 because the witch is dead. 94 00:05:13,661 --> 00:05:15,097 Dorothy gets back to Kansas. 95 00:05:19,101 --> 00:05:21,103 The objects themselves associated with the production 96 00:05:21,146 --> 00:05:23,279 still have that power over people 97 00:05:23,323 --> 00:05:26,369 and an object like the Ruby slippers 98 00:05:26,413 --> 00:05:28,502 is a perfect example of that. 99 00:05:28,545 --> 00:05:30,373 I've seen people just break down in tears, 100 00:05:30,417 --> 00:05:32,244 coming into this room 101 00:05:32,288 --> 00:05:34,203 and seeing the ruby slippers in real life. 102 00:05:34,246 --> 00:05:36,423 You know, Dorothy Gale is a stand-in for anybody 103 00:05:36,466 --> 00:05:39,121 who's ever thought about wanting more out of their life 104 00:05:39,164 --> 00:05:41,079 or being unhappy with their circumstances, 105 00:05:41,123 --> 00:05:43,125 seeking something over the rainbow. 106 00:05:43,168 --> 00:05:45,519 Having an object in front of you 107 00:05:45,562 --> 00:05:47,390 that represents that, 108 00:05:47,434 --> 00:05:48,957 it's actually very powerful. 109 00:05:50,524 --> 00:05:52,308 "Wizard of Oz" was a very difficult shoot. 110 00:05:53,962 --> 00:05:56,399 There were conflicts and re-castings 111 00:05:56,443 --> 00:05:59,271 and accidents and script problems. 112 00:06:00,490 --> 00:06:02,144 - They wanted to make a realistic film 113 00:06:02,187 --> 00:06:04,233 that was a fantasy. 114 00:06:04,276 --> 00:06:07,454 All of the characters suffered through the costumes. 115 00:06:08,759 --> 00:06:10,544 Dad had to eat every meal through a straw. 116 00:06:13,068 --> 00:06:15,549 The lighting was so intense. 117 00:06:15,592 --> 00:06:17,377 They were dying under those costumes. 118 00:06:19,248 --> 00:06:21,337 There was a fire marshal on the set at all times 119 00:06:21,381 --> 00:06:23,426 with a light meter going around to make sure 120 00:06:23,470 --> 00:06:25,297 the set wasn't going to catch on fire 121 00:06:25,341 --> 00:06:27,778 from the heat of the lights. 122 00:06:29,214 --> 00:06:31,521 There were 14 writers and five directors 123 00:06:31,565 --> 00:06:33,567 and three choreographers 124 00:06:33,610 --> 00:06:35,482 and a potentially fatal accident, 125 00:06:35,525 --> 00:06:37,397 a potentially fatal reaction to makeup. 126 00:06:39,747 --> 00:06:41,618 I would imagine you'd have to ask 127 00:06:41,662 --> 00:06:43,446 any number of the cast members 128 00:06:43,490 --> 00:06:45,013 who worked on "The Wizard of Oz" 129 00:06:45,056 --> 00:06:47,232 if "The Wizard of Oz" was cursed or not. 130 00:06:47,276 --> 00:06:49,757 And if you asked Buddy Ebsen, 131 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:51,411 he might tell you, yes. 132 00:06:51,454 --> 00:06:53,587 His participation was cursed. 133 00:06:55,502 --> 00:06:58,418 Originally Buddy Ebsen was cast to play the Tin Man. 134 00:06:58,461 --> 00:07:00,855 And he was a very popular film actor of the time 135 00:07:00,898 --> 00:07:02,900 known as the song and dance man. 136 00:07:02,944 --> 00:07:04,989 And he would've been a perfect fit for the film. 137 00:07:06,338 --> 00:07:08,515 The makeup was pretty basic. 138 00:07:08,558 --> 00:07:10,647 They used clown white 139 00:07:10,691 --> 00:07:13,041 and then they dusted it with ground up aluminum. 140 00:07:14,564 --> 00:07:16,610 He found that he was starting to have cramps 141 00:07:16,653 --> 00:07:18,960 in his fingers, or in his feet. 142 00:07:19,003 --> 00:07:20,962 And then one night it spread to his arms 143 00:07:21,005 --> 00:07:23,399 and his legs and he could not breathe. 144 00:07:23,443 --> 00:07:25,314 - They were putting silver paint on him 145 00:07:25,357 --> 00:07:27,098 and they didn't realize it, you know, 146 00:07:27,142 --> 00:07:29,797 he was being poisoned. 147 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:32,756 He had been inhaling the aluminum particles, 148 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:34,279 you know, that floated around. 149 00:07:36,064 --> 00:07:37,979 They had coated his lungs. 150 00:07:38,022 --> 00:07:40,895 - He went home one night. Couldn't breathe. 151 00:07:40,938 --> 00:07:43,245 Ended up in the hospital 152 00:07:43,288 --> 00:07:45,682 with pneumonia in an oxygen tent. 153 00:07:47,641 --> 00:07:50,121 Unfortunately, his participation in the film 154 00:07:50,165 --> 00:07:52,646 was cut short. 155 00:07:52,689 --> 00:07:54,865 And it ended up being a film 156 00:07:54,909 --> 00:07:57,346 that kind of scarred him in a way too. 157 00:07:57,389 --> 00:08:00,436 Um, literally scarred his lungs 158 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,004 uh, because he had a tendency toward bronchitis 159 00:08:03,047 --> 00:08:04,919 for the rest of his life. 160 00:08:06,834 --> 00:08:08,879 - In the early 2000's 161 00:08:08,923 --> 00:08:10,751 I had a show called "MythBusters" 162 00:08:10,794 --> 00:08:13,275 and we were doing a story we called "The Goldfinger Myth". 163 00:08:13,318 --> 00:08:15,277 And it's about the actress, Shirley Eaton, 164 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:17,279 who got painted gold in the James Bond film, 165 00:08:17,322 --> 00:08:20,195 supposedly got suffocated by the paint. 166 00:08:20,238 --> 00:08:22,023 Which she didn't. 167 00:08:22,066 --> 00:08:23,851 But as part of the research for that myth, 168 00:08:23,894 --> 00:08:25,853 we came across the famous story from "The Wizard of Oz" 169 00:08:25,896 --> 00:08:28,551 that Buddy Ebsen was originally slated to play the Tin Man. 170 00:08:28,595 --> 00:08:31,032 And couldn't because he was poisoned 171 00:08:31,075 --> 00:08:33,600 by the silver paint that they put on him 172 00:08:33,643 --> 00:08:35,079 to play the Tin Man. 173 00:08:37,473 --> 00:08:39,562 When we first started to look at doing a story 174 00:08:39,606 --> 00:08:41,433 about "The Wizard of Oz", 175 00:08:41,477 --> 00:08:43,305 there are a few avenues to that negative affect 176 00:08:43,348 --> 00:08:45,350 and one is poison. 177 00:08:45,394 --> 00:08:47,788 So, if Buddy Ebsen was poisoned by lead in the paint, 178 00:08:47,831 --> 00:08:50,225 we-we can't test that on ourselves. 179 00:08:50,268 --> 00:08:52,880 But the other main reason given 180 00:08:52,923 --> 00:08:54,534 for the difficulty with the paint 181 00:08:54,577 --> 00:08:56,405 was that it cut off the oxygen 182 00:08:56,448 --> 00:08:58,276 that you breathe through your skin. 183 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:00,104 And if you paint your whole body 184 00:09:00,148 --> 00:09:01,584 um, you will somehow suffocate. 185 00:09:01,628 --> 00:09:03,586 That is testable by us. 186 00:09:03,630 --> 00:09:05,501 The suffocation is something that we can creep up on. 187 00:09:05,545 --> 00:09:07,416 We have an EMT on set. 188 00:09:07,459 --> 00:09:10,462 We can make sure our pulse oxygen levels are up to snuff. 189 00:09:10,506 --> 00:09:13,640 And that is the aspect of the story that we tested. 190 00:09:13,683 --> 00:09:16,904 - This is the exact stuff that they were using on the Tin Man. 191 00:09:16,947 --> 00:09:18,819 Which was just pure aluminum powder. 192 00:09:18,862 --> 00:09:20,908 Now, why are you guys feeding her oxygen? 193 00:09:20,951 --> 00:09:22,605 - Her heart rate's gone up. 194 00:09:24,085 --> 00:09:27,131 When most humans think about being Buddy Ebsen 195 00:09:27,175 --> 00:09:29,264 in that moment, oh, you get to play a Tin Man. 196 00:09:29,307 --> 00:09:31,745 so, they're gonna build this elaborate costume around you. 197 00:09:31,788 --> 00:09:33,529 And then they're gonna paint you silver. 198 00:09:33,573 --> 00:09:35,966 These are all the activities of like, 199 00:09:36,010 --> 00:09:38,708 the best day ever for a 10-year-old. 200 00:09:38,752 --> 00:09:41,668 And I think every one of us intersects with that of like, 201 00:09:41,711 --> 00:09:43,408 that sounds incredible. 202 00:09:43,452 --> 00:09:45,976 And when you add on to that, the idea of being poisoned 203 00:09:46,020 --> 00:09:49,893 by effectively the highest level of play, um, 204 00:09:51,721 --> 00:09:53,549 that's exactly the kind of juxtaposition 205 00:09:53,593 --> 00:09:56,160 where people wanna keep telling that story. 206 00:09:59,076 --> 00:10:01,209 I think it is certainly plausible 207 00:10:01,252 --> 00:10:03,864 that Buddy Ebsen could have had lifelong effects 208 00:10:03,907 --> 00:10:06,170 from the makeup on "Wizard of Oz". 209 00:10:07,563 --> 00:10:09,304 On every single story we did on "MythBusters", 210 00:10:09,347 --> 00:10:11,262 we were working with chemicals 211 00:10:11,306 --> 00:10:12,829 that could affect us in a negative way 212 00:10:12,873 --> 00:10:14,831 and we had to be able to talk to the insurance company 213 00:10:14,875 --> 00:10:17,094 about how we were going to do it safely. 214 00:10:17,138 --> 00:10:19,183 That's definitely not something 215 00:10:19,227 --> 00:10:20,750 that I think was going on in the 30s. 216 00:10:23,057 --> 00:10:25,537 The snow in the poppy field sequence 217 00:10:25,581 --> 00:10:28,715 was made of some derivation of asbestos. 218 00:10:31,674 --> 00:10:33,763 Nobody thought that this was damaging. 219 00:10:33,807 --> 00:10:35,896 They were doing things the best way they knew how, 220 00:10:35,939 --> 00:10:37,680 80 years ago. 221 00:10:37,724 --> 00:10:39,551 And they were doing them as safely 222 00:10:39,595 --> 00:10:41,249 as they thought they could. 223 00:10:42,685 --> 00:10:44,426 A lot of the special effects that were used 224 00:10:44,469 --> 00:10:46,602 in "The Wizard of Oz" were experimental. 225 00:10:48,082 --> 00:10:49,823 They were put into "The Wizard of Oz" 226 00:10:49,866 --> 00:10:51,955 for the first time on film. 227 00:10:53,435 --> 00:10:55,655 - Buddy Ebsen was a guinea pig for a new kind of makeup 228 00:10:55,698 --> 00:10:57,308 and it cost him the film. 229 00:10:59,049 --> 00:11:00,224 There was another rumor 230 00:11:02,749 --> 00:11:06,100 that the Munchkins were all drunkards. 231 00:11:07,579 --> 00:11:09,364 During the filming of "The Wizard of Oz" 232 00:11:09,407 --> 00:11:11,409 most of the Munchkins stayed together at this hotel. 233 00:11:13,150 --> 00:11:15,065 The rumor is that while they were here, 234 00:11:15,109 --> 00:11:17,502 they carried on in a less-than-civilized fashion. 235 00:11:19,113 --> 00:11:21,681 This hotel will always be known 236 00:11:21,724 --> 00:11:25,162 for the residence of most of the little people 237 00:11:25,206 --> 00:11:28,296 when they made the movie uh, in 1938. 238 00:11:29,776 --> 00:11:33,127 It's strange, but I can almost hear 239 00:11:33,170 --> 00:11:35,259 the Munchkin sounds 240 00:11:37,174 --> 00:11:40,134 because more than a hundred of them stayed right here 241 00:11:40,177 --> 00:11:41,962 in this hotel. 242 00:11:42,005 --> 00:11:45,008 I'm sure there were a few parties. 243 00:11:45,052 --> 00:11:47,010 There have been stories for years 244 00:11:47,054 --> 00:11:49,056 that there were wild sex orgies, 245 00:11:49,099 --> 00:11:51,623 that the Munchkins went crazy. 246 00:11:51,667 --> 00:11:53,321 I used to hear this as a kid. 247 00:11:53,364 --> 00:11:55,149 - Come on here, Larry, let me tell you. 248 00:11:55,192 --> 00:11:56,628 - You can tell me. 249 00:11:58,152 --> 00:12:00,067 There were roughly 124 little people 250 00:12:00,110 --> 00:12:02,199 playing the Munchkins 251 00:12:02,243 --> 00:12:03,984 and the stories about the orgies, 252 00:12:04,027 --> 00:12:05,550 the drunken parties, 253 00:12:05,594 --> 00:12:07,465 the misbehavior, 254 00:12:07,509 --> 00:12:10,773 tend to be painted in the broadest strokes possible 255 00:12:10,817 --> 00:12:13,820 and incriminate 124 people. 256 00:12:13,863 --> 00:12:16,910 There were maybe a half a dozen or 10 who were rowdy. 257 00:12:16,953 --> 00:12:19,042 And there were things that did happen. 258 00:12:19,086 --> 00:12:21,653 - One of the Munchkins brought a gun to the set. 259 00:12:21,697 --> 00:12:23,960 A sort of a notorious little guy 260 00:12:24,004 --> 00:12:26,571 by the name of Charlie Kelly. 261 00:12:26,615 --> 00:12:28,748 He was jealous over his ex-wife 262 00:12:28,791 --> 00:12:30,532 and she was dating another little person. 263 00:12:30,575 --> 00:12:32,882 He didn't get fired though. 264 00:12:32,926 --> 00:12:35,406 They just made sure he didn't return with uh, 265 00:12:35,450 --> 00:12:37,191 another pistol. 266 00:12:37,234 --> 00:12:38,801 I have to ask you about - Of course. 267 00:12:38,845 --> 00:12:40,803 - all the rumors that have come out 268 00:12:40,847 --> 00:12:43,023 and the rumors are that all the little people 269 00:12:43,066 --> 00:12:44,589 got drunk every night. 270 00:12:44,633 --> 00:12:46,243 - Nah, that's so... - No. 271 00:12:46,287 --> 00:12:48,332 - That's stupid, really. They didn't. 272 00:12:48,376 --> 00:12:49,899 - Where do you think these rumors came from, then? 273 00:12:51,161 --> 00:12:52,554 - The great Judy Garland. 274 00:12:54,382 --> 00:12:56,514 On a TV special in 1967, 275 00:12:56,558 --> 00:12:59,039 Judy Garland said the Munchkins 276 00:12:59,082 --> 00:13:01,737 on "The Wizard of Oz" set were-were drunks. 277 00:13:03,260 --> 00:13:05,828 There was nothing like the drunken stories 278 00:13:05,872 --> 00:13:08,700 that Judy Garland sort of pinned on them 279 00:13:08,744 --> 00:13:11,181 in one of her inebriated moments 280 00:13:12,835 --> 00:13:15,011 on the "Jack Parr Show". 281 00:13:15,055 --> 00:13:16,665 - They were drunks. - They were little drunks? 282 00:13:19,146 --> 00:13:21,975 - And they put them all in one hotel room. 283 00:13:22,018 --> 00:13:24,064 Not one room, one hotel in Culver City. 284 00:13:24,107 --> 00:13:25,543 - Yeah. 285 00:13:25,587 --> 00:13:27,719 - And they got smashed every night. 286 00:13:27,763 --> 00:13:30,113 And they'd pick 'em up in butterfly nets. 287 00:13:33,203 --> 00:13:35,379 Because it came from Judy Garland, 288 00:13:35,423 --> 00:13:37,991 I think people may have thought, 289 00:13:38,034 --> 00:13:40,732 well, she was there. She would know. 290 00:13:40,776 --> 00:13:43,300 As much as they loved Judy Garland, 291 00:13:43,344 --> 00:13:45,085 and they really did, 292 00:13:45,128 --> 00:13:47,652 the Munchkin actors had to suffer with that story 293 00:13:47,696 --> 00:13:49,611 over the years. 294 00:13:49,654 --> 00:13:52,701 Um, and they-they weren't happy about that. 295 00:13:52,744 --> 00:13:54,921 - As much as I love Judy, 296 00:13:54,964 --> 00:13:57,401 when she made that statement on "Jack Parr Show", 297 00:13:57,445 --> 00:13:59,708 Judy had a couple of bells in her, 298 00:13:59,751 --> 00:14:01,710 and she was trying to be funny. 299 00:14:01,753 --> 00:14:03,538 And when you're trying to be funny, 300 00:14:03,581 --> 00:14:05,409 and you don't know what to say, 301 00:14:05,453 --> 00:14:06,976 you're gonna pick on the little people. 302 00:14:07,020 --> 00:14:09,892 - Now I've heard stories... - Don't you believe it. 303 00:14:09,936 --> 00:14:11,938 - Really? - That's what they all hate, 304 00:14:11,981 --> 00:14:13,940 them, them stupid stories. - That was not true. 305 00:14:13,983 --> 00:14:16,594 - You mind if I say somethin'? If I were 6-foot-tall, 306 00:14:16,638 --> 00:14:18,901 I'd-I'd go to every one of those guys 307 00:14:18,945 --> 00:14:21,643 that wrote those stupid things, you know, it was awful, 308 00:14:21,686 --> 00:14:23,863 I'da grabbed up against the wall and said, 309 00:14:23,906 --> 00:14:25,734 "You know what you did?" Bam! 310 00:14:25,777 --> 00:14:27,562 - The Munchkins got really irritated 311 00:14:27,605 --> 00:14:29,651 by questions like that. 312 00:14:29,694 --> 00:14:32,610 Rumors of sex orgies. - Oh, that's a load of BS. 313 00:14:32,654 --> 00:14:35,744 - While there probably were parties, 314 00:14:35,787 --> 00:14:38,181 it was nothing like 315 00:14:38,225 --> 00:14:40,488 what was portrayed in the movie, "Under the Rainbow". 316 00:14:42,794 --> 00:14:45,362 "Under the Rainbow" is a great, great, great movie 317 00:14:45,406 --> 00:14:47,538 and very misunderstood. 318 00:14:47,582 --> 00:14:49,323 But true movie buffs know the truth about it. 319 00:14:50,672 --> 00:14:52,674 - Hey guys, this is Gregg Turkington 320 00:14:52,717 --> 00:14:54,894 with the Victorville Film Archive. 321 00:14:58,985 --> 00:15:01,117 - And I have five copies of that, but I brought one. 322 00:15:01,161 --> 00:15:03,293 This is "Under the Rainbow". 323 00:15:03,337 --> 00:15:05,774 This is sort of the definitive making 324 00:15:05,817 --> 00:15:07,471 of "The Wizard of Oz" movie. 325 00:15:08,995 --> 00:15:11,214 If you like Chevy Chase, this is one of his best movies. 326 00:15:11,258 --> 00:15:13,260 And of course, Carrie Fisher, 327 00:15:13,303 --> 00:15:16,132 we all love her as Princess Leia, 328 00:15:16,176 --> 00:15:18,700 but she shone bright, not only in "Star Wars" movies, 329 00:15:18,743 --> 00:15:20,789 but also here, in "Under the Rainbow". 330 00:15:20,832 --> 00:15:23,226 The true story of the Munchkins. 331 00:15:25,272 --> 00:15:26,969 I'm Steve Rash. 332 00:15:27,013 --> 00:15:29,363 I'm director of a film called "Under the Rainbow". 333 00:15:30,886 --> 00:15:33,236 The film turned out to be about um... 334 00:15:34,803 --> 00:15:38,720 the Munchkins tearing up the Culver Hotel 335 00:15:38,763 --> 00:15:41,418 during the filming of "The Wizard of Oz" 336 00:15:41,462 --> 00:15:43,768 with a story overlaid 337 00:15:43,812 --> 00:15:46,423 about a secret service agent, 338 00:15:46,467 --> 00:15:48,425 a paranoid duke and duchess, 339 00:15:48,469 --> 00:15:49,992 an assassin, 340 00:15:50,036 --> 00:15:52,255 a Japanese spy, 341 00:15:52,299 --> 00:15:54,910 a German little person spy. 342 00:15:54,954 --> 00:15:56,999 - I, I didn't think people would believe 343 00:15:57,043 --> 00:15:59,219 that the Munchkins would be swinging from the chandeliers, 344 00:15:59,262 --> 00:16:01,221 and would tie up the hotel manager, 345 00:16:01,264 --> 00:16:03,092 and run amok. 346 00:16:04,485 --> 00:16:06,400 They probably thought 347 00:16:06,443 --> 00:16:08,445 that it wouldn't perpetuate it that much, 348 00:16:08,489 --> 00:16:10,404 but it did. 349 00:16:10,447 --> 00:16:12,841 I had not seen "Under the Rainbow" 350 00:16:12,884 --> 00:16:14,974 in at least 20 years. 351 00:16:15,017 --> 00:16:18,020 This last 12 or 14 hours 352 00:16:18,064 --> 00:16:20,414 since seeing it again after 20 years 353 00:16:20,457 --> 00:16:22,590 has kind of shaken me. 354 00:16:25,071 --> 00:16:27,638 I thought we were more advanced 355 00:16:27,682 --> 00:16:29,684 in 1980 than this. 356 00:16:31,077 --> 00:16:34,123 I was quite disappointed at how racist, 357 00:16:34,167 --> 00:16:36,473 how sexist, 358 00:16:36,517 --> 00:16:38,345 how elitist 359 00:16:38,388 --> 00:16:40,738 it conceptually was. 360 00:16:40,782 --> 00:16:43,785 Probably some other "-ists" as well. 361 00:16:43,828 --> 00:16:45,830 Did that bother me 362 00:16:45,874 --> 00:16:47,963 the day that I shot it? 363 00:16:48,007 --> 00:16:50,052 I don't think so. 364 00:16:50,096 --> 00:16:52,794 It bothers me like Hell today. 365 00:16:56,232 --> 00:16:59,540 The only fabulous thing about the whole experience 366 00:16:59,583 --> 00:17:01,585 was meeting and working with 367 00:17:01,629 --> 00:17:03,370 over a hundred little people. 368 00:17:03,413 --> 00:17:05,807 In retrospect, looking at the way 369 00:17:05,850 --> 00:17:07,939 we were portraying them, 370 00:17:07,983 --> 00:17:10,594 um, they should have revolted. 371 00:17:10,638 --> 00:17:12,509 This film seems to believe 372 00:17:12,553 --> 00:17:14,598 that anything a small person does is funny, 373 00:17:14,642 --> 00:17:16,035 and of course, that's not true. 374 00:17:16,078 --> 00:17:17,906 - You know, I agree with you. 375 00:17:17,949 --> 00:17:19,690 And one of the things that bother me 376 00:17:19,734 --> 00:17:21,214 about the use of the little people in this movie 377 00:17:21,257 --> 00:17:22,911 is that at no point were any of them, 378 00:17:22,954 --> 00:17:24,826 except for Billy Barty, as the spy, 379 00:17:24,869 --> 00:17:26,697 dignified by being made into characters 380 00:17:26,741 --> 00:17:29,048 who had personalities. 381 00:17:29,091 --> 00:17:31,093 It felt a little bit like a train wreck, 382 00:17:31,137 --> 00:17:33,095 but I was the conductor. 383 00:17:33,139 --> 00:17:35,358 This is probably rationalization 384 00:17:35,402 --> 00:17:38,057 because so many little people 385 00:17:38,100 --> 00:17:40,363 had a wonderful experience 386 00:17:40,407 --> 00:17:42,452 and made a lot of money. 387 00:17:42,496 --> 00:17:44,411 I hope that makes up for the fact 388 00:17:44,454 --> 00:17:46,543 that we really didn't deal with them 389 00:17:46,587 --> 00:17:48,328 in a truthful way. 390 00:17:48,371 --> 00:17:50,808 We tried to do it in a fun way and you know, 391 00:17:50,852 --> 00:17:53,028 some people think it's hilarious. 392 00:17:53,072 --> 00:17:55,335 Um, I don't anymore. 393 00:17:59,121 --> 00:18:00,862 Are you a "Wizard of Oz" fan? 394 00:18:00,905 --> 00:18:02,385 - Oh yeah. 395 00:18:02,429 --> 00:18:04,387 Oh yeah. 396 00:18:05,693 --> 00:18:08,087 Some of the people who made it in retrospect 397 00:18:08,130 --> 00:18:10,089 may have felt bad about it. 398 00:18:10,132 --> 00:18:12,526 Everything that can happen on a film 399 00:18:12,569 --> 00:18:14,005 happened to that film. 400 00:18:15,703 --> 00:18:17,966 The joy you see on the screen 401 00:18:18,009 --> 00:18:20,490 in "The Wizard of Oz", 402 00:18:20,534 --> 00:18:24,190 that was an illusion created by 403 00:18:24,233 --> 00:18:27,410 an awful lot of people working awfully hard. 404 00:18:30,674 --> 00:18:33,416 The studio really was a factory. 405 00:18:35,984 --> 00:18:38,595 There were 500 carpenters, 406 00:18:38,639 --> 00:18:40,597 15 plumbers, 407 00:18:40,641 --> 00:18:42,947 two dozen blacksmiths, 408 00:18:42,991 --> 00:18:44,819 one barber, 409 00:18:44,862 --> 00:18:47,387 one shoe-shine boy, 410 00:18:47,430 --> 00:18:50,390 and one man in charge of the lions. 411 00:18:54,220 --> 00:18:57,310 The actors and actresses 412 00:18:57,353 --> 00:19:00,530 were workers in that factory. 413 00:19:06,188 --> 00:19:09,365 Mom was born in Cleveland, Ohio, 1902. 414 00:19:10,975 --> 00:19:13,543 She taught in the Boston public schools 415 00:19:13,587 --> 00:19:15,197 while she pounded the pavements in New York. 416 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:18,679 "The Wizard of Oz" was casting. 417 00:19:18,722 --> 00:19:21,725 They had thought of looking for a beautiful witch. 418 00:19:21,769 --> 00:19:24,424 She said, well, that does it for me, 419 00:19:24,467 --> 00:19:26,556 but subsequently they changed their mind 420 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,211 and they wanted a quote, "Ugly witch". 421 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:31,909 And mother said, "Well, of course 422 00:19:31,953 --> 00:19:34,173 they would've thought of me." 423 00:19:34,216 --> 00:19:36,175 And she got the part. 424 00:19:36,218 --> 00:19:37,741 And the-the rest was history. 425 00:19:38,916 --> 00:19:41,310 People are shocked to realize 426 00:19:41,354 --> 00:19:43,312 that Mom was on the screen in "The Wizard of Oz" 427 00:19:43,356 --> 00:19:46,141 only 12 minutes. 428 00:19:46,185 --> 00:19:48,448 Of course, her presence 429 00:19:48,491 --> 00:19:50,014 dominated the whole film. 430 00:19:52,278 --> 00:19:55,063 - I remember being incredibly scared 431 00:19:56,238 --> 00:19:57,848 of the witch. 432 00:19:59,285 --> 00:20:01,156 They knew what they were doing 433 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:03,114 when they cast Margaret Hamilton. 434 00:20:04,942 --> 00:20:07,641 Maybe they didn't realize 435 00:20:07,684 --> 00:20:09,947 just the impact that she would have though. 436 00:20:11,384 --> 00:20:13,995 A big concern of hers 437 00:20:14,038 --> 00:20:16,606 was that the kids would believe it. 438 00:20:18,129 --> 00:20:19,740 - How nice to see you, Mr. Rogers. 439 00:20:19,783 --> 00:20:21,524 - I'm so glad to see you. 440 00:20:21,568 --> 00:20:23,439 I'd like you to know my television friend, 441 00:20:23,483 --> 00:20:25,572 Miss Margaret Hamilton. - How do you do? 442 00:20:25,615 --> 00:20:27,748 And so, she spent a lot of time 443 00:20:27,791 --> 00:20:29,445 trying to convince kids 444 00:20:29,489 --> 00:20:31,578 that she was a kind old lady 445 00:20:31,621 --> 00:20:34,058 and that was a witch on the screen. 446 00:20:34,102 --> 00:20:36,626 And that was make believe. And they shouldn't be afraid, 447 00:20:36,670 --> 00:20:39,760 - Would you try on a dress like the one you had on? 448 00:20:39,803 --> 00:20:41,327 - Yes, I'd-I'd love to. - To show us? 449 00:20:41,370 --> 00:20:43,111 - I think that would be fun. 450 00:20:43,154 --> 00:20:45,374 But she tried to stress, 451 00:20:45,418 --> 00:20:47,681 especially on "Mr. Rogers", 452 00:20:47,724 --> 00:20:49,726 that it was just an act. 453 00:20:49,770 --> 00:20:51,815 - There's your old friend, 454 00:20:51,859 --> 00:20:53,469 the Wicked Witch of the West. 455 00:20:53,513 --> 00:20:55,732 - How did s-- how did she talk? 456 00:20:55,776 --> 00:20:57,430 - Well, she talked like this. 457 00:20:57,473 --> 00:20:59,258 It's very nice to see you. 458 00:21:00,737 --> 00:21:02,173 In the 30s and the 40s, 459 00:21:02,217 --> 00:21:05,089 safety conditions were not so great. 460 00:21:06,352 --> 00:21:08,179 And uh, 461 00:21:08,223 --> 00:21:10,269 Mom was badly burned in the picture. 462 00:21:11,835 --> 00:21:13,924 It's a scene where she has arrived 463 00:21:13,968 --> 00:21:16,231 in the Munchkin Village. 464 00:21:16,275 --> 00:21:18,407 - When you see her entrance into Munchkinland 465 00:21:18,451 --> 00:21:20,017 in the smoke, 466 00:21:21,845 --> 00:21:23,194 it's not Margaret Hamilton. 467 00:21:23,238 --> 00:21:25,458 It was her double, Betty Danko. 468 00:21:25,501 --> 00:21:27,677 But they wanted Margaret to do the disappearance. 469 00:21:27,721 --> 00:21:29,723 They wanted to get it in one shot. 470 00:21:29,766 --> 00:21:31,377 They wanted to make it look real. 471 00:21:31,420 --> 00:21:33,335 So, they weren't using her double for that. 472 00:21:33,379 --> 00:21:35,642 And it was a complicated shot. 473 00:21:35,685 --> 00:21:38,035 Margaret Hamilton was talking to the Good Witch and Dorothy, 474 00:21:38,079 --> 00:21:40,342 and she had to deliver her line, 475 00:21:40,386 --> 00:21:42,213 "I'll get you and your little dog, too." 476 00:21:42,257 --> 00:21:45,129 - I'll get you, my pretty, and your little dog, too! 477 00:21:47,349 --> 00:21:48,872 And whirl around 478 00:21:48,916 --> 00:21:50,657 and get to that elevator platform. 479 00:21:50,700 --> 00:21:52,702 The elevator was very small. 480 00:21:52,746 --> 00:21:55,009 So, she had to hit her mark, exactly, 481 00:21:55,052 --> 00:21:57,098 pull the broom straight up, 482 00:21:57,141 --> 00:21:59,274 pull her elbows in 483 00:21:59,318 --> 00:22:01,624 so that she could drop cleanly through the floor. 484 00:22:03,147 --> 00:22:05,193 Say the line, back up just the right amount, 485 00:22:05,236 --> 00:22:07,413 get on the platform, pull everything in. 486 00:22:07,456 --> 00:22:09,197 The smoke came up and she dropped down, 487 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,721 huge burst of real flame, 488 00:22:15,856 --> 00:22:18,032 But they let the fire effect go too quickly. 489 00:22:21,514 --> 00:22:23,298 And the broom caught on fire 490 00:22:23,342 --> 00:22:25,039 as did the hat. 491 00:22:25,082 --> 00:22:26,910 She was severely burned. 492 00:22:29,260 --> 00:22:31,132 She was immediately smothered with blankets 493 00:22:31,175 --> 00:22:32,916 to put out the fire. 494 00:22:34,135 --> 00:22:35,963 What she ultimately ended up having 495 00:22:36,006 --> 00:22:38,095 was third-degree burns on her hand 496 00:22:38,139 --> 00:22:40,010 and second-degree burns on her face. 497 00:22:40,054 --> 00:22:42,404 Now compounding that, 498 00:22:42,448 --> 00:22:44,667 her green makeup was copper based, 499 00:22:44,711 --> 00:22:46,800 and heated copper 500 00:22:46,843 --> 00:22:48,802 could begin to eat into her skin. 501 00:22:50,586 --> 00:22:52,501 They had to take her off to the side of the set 502 00:22:52,545 --> 00:22:55,156 and clean her face, her pores completely, 503 00:22:55,199 --> 00:22:57,027 of that green makeup. 504 00:22:57,071 --> 00:22:59,378 And they used rubbing alcohol 505 00:22:59,421 --> 00:23:02,729 and they had to press down on these fresh burns. 506 00:23:02,772 --> 00:23:04,644 Uh, Margaret Hamilton said 507 00:23:04,687 --> 00:23:06,559 she could never, ever forget that pain. 508 00:23:07,951 --> 00:23:09,779 And the doctor salved her up, 509 00:23:09,823 --> 00:23:11,259 wrapped her up like a mummy, 510 00:23:11,302 --> 00:23:12,826 and they sent her home. 511 00:23:14,871 --> 00:23:16,264 She was very concerned 512 00:23:16,307 --> 00:23:18,179 what my reaction was going to be. 513 00:23:18,222 --> 00:23:20,094 I was three years old at that time. 514 00:23:21,661 --> 00:23:24,490 She called ahead to my nanny and said, 515 00:23:24,533 --> 00:23:26,840 "Look, I'm coming home. 516 00:23:26,883 --> 00:23:29,799 Tell him that I have a new costume. 517 00:23:29,843 --> 00:23:31,801 I'm gonna look just like a mummy. 518 00:23:31,845 --> 00:23:34,587 And I'm really excited to show him this costume. 519 00:23:34,630 --> 00:23:36,676 And as soon as we get home and I get in bed, 520 00:23:36,719 --> 00:23:38,678 you have to bring him in so he can see this." 521 00:23:38,721 --> 00:23:40,549 And I still remember being brought into her room. 522 00:23:43,334 --> 00:23:45,119 And here was Mom... 523 00:23:46,468 --> 00:23:48,601 bandaged everywhere, 524 00:23:48,644 --> 00:23:50,994 particularly all over her face 525 00:23:51,038 --> 00:23:52,735 with this couple of slits for her eyes. 526 00:23:55,738 --> 00:23:57,653 And she said, "How do you like my new costume?" 527 00:23:57,697 --> 00:23:59,002 And I said, "Gee, that was kind of neat." 528 00:24:00,743 --> 00:24:02,832 And she handled that whole situation 529 00:24:02,876 --> 00:24:05,705 so that it was never any trauma for me. 530 00:24:09,317 --> 00:24:12,407 When she did go back six weeks later, 531 00:24:12,451 --> 00:24:14,583 the first thing they wanted her to do 532 00:24:14,627 --> 00:24:17,194 was a flying scene on the broom 533 00:24:17,238 --> 00:24:19,283 with the smoke coming out behind. 534 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,157 They said, "Maggie, we just have this broom 535 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,768 with a little gasoline engine on the back." 536 00:24:25,812 --> 00:24:27,988 She was filming a sky riding scene 537 00:24:28,031 --> 00:24:29,816 and they positioned a... 538 00:24:29,859 --> 00:24:32,166 a pipe that would blast fire, 539 00:24:32,209 --> 00:24:34,690 right beside uh... 540 00:24:34,734 --> 00:24:37,388 where she sat on the broom. 541 00:24:37,432 --> 00:24:41,523 - The wardrobe man brought up a costume to her 542 00:24:41,567 --> 00:24:44,831 and said, "This is your fireproof costume." 543 00:24:46,093 --> 00:24:47,703 - She went, "Whoa." - She just refused. 544 00:24:47,747 --> 00:24:49,705 She says, "I'm not gonna do it." 545 00:24:49,749 --> 00:24:52,882 - So, Margaret Hamilton's stunt double, 546 00:24:52,926 --> 00:24:55,363 Betty Danko, agreed to do the scene. 547 00:24:57,670 --> 00:24:59,410 Betty Danko got in the costume, the makeup, 548 00:24:59,454 --> 00:25:02,501 put her on the broom, started the wind machines. 549 00:25:02,544 --> 00:25:04,807 Told her "All right, action, 550 00:25:04,851 --> 00:25:07,114 push the button, Miss Danko." 551 00:25:07,157 --> 00:25:09,029 And she pushed the button and the smoke mechanism 552 00:25:09,072 --> 00:25:11,161 at the back of the broom exploded. 553 00:25:11,205 --> 00:25:13,033 - That thing blew up. 554 00:25:13,076 --> 00:25:14,382 - She went one direction 555 00:25:14,425 --> 00:25:16,384 The broom went the other direction. 556 00:25:16,427 --> 00:25:18,734 There were flying metal pieces that embedded in her leg. 557 00:25:18,778 --> 00:25:21,084 And she was in the hospital for a while. 558 00:25:22,608 --> 00:25:24,523 Any kind of legend, good or bad, 559 00:25:24,566 --> 00:25:26,525 is going to travel. 560 00:25:28,091 --> 00:25:30,224 The important thing though is to separate the legend 561 00:25:30,267 --> 00:25:32,661 and the myth from the truth. 562 00:25:34,358 --> 00:25:37,797 The only way in which the film is cursed now 563 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:39,712 is the way all of that 564 00:25:39,755 --> 00:25:42,366 has been expanded upon, 565 00:25:42,410 --> 00:25:45,108 and enlarged, and lied about. 566 00:25:45,152 --> 00:25:46,719 And this has been going on for decades. 567 00:25:48,372 --> 00:25:51,245 I think it's yellow journalism to the max. 568 00:25:52,681 --> 00:25:54,553 If I were just somebody who sat at home 569 00:25:54,596 --> 00:25:56,380 and watched "The Wizard of Oz" for my own pleasure 570 00:25:56,424 --> 00:25:58,382 and heard the legends, I would say, 571 00:25:58,426 --> 00:26:00,254 "Well, gee, maybe those are true. 572 00:26:00,297 --> 00:26:02,125 Gosh, did that really happen? Fuck!" 573 00:26:04,693 --> 00:26:06,869 The most famous of all "The Oz" legends 574 00:26:06,913 --> 00:26:08,567 is one of the earliest ones 575 00:26:08,610 --> 00:26:10,569 that there is a Munchkin 576 00:26:10,612 --> 00:26:12,440 who hung himself on the set, 577 00:26:12,483 --> 00:26:14,398 and you can see him in the background 578 00:26:14,442 --> 00:26:16,270 hanging and swinging. 579 00:26:18,272 --> 00:26:20,100 I've got some curses for you if you... 580 00:26:20,143 --> 00:26:21,754 if you wanna know. 581 00:26:21,797 --> 00:26:23,973 Someone showed me a um, 582 00:26:25,148 --> 00:26:26,933 a couple of feet of film 583 00:26:26,976 --> 00:26:29,239 that was allegedly once part of the cut 584 00:26:29,283 --> 00:26:31,633 of "The Wizard of Oz" 585 00:26:31,677 --> 00:26:33,722 that had been removed when they learned 586 00:26:33,766 --> 00:26:35,158 that that dark spot 587 00:26:36,377 --> 00:26:38,422 up in the upper right-hand corner, 588 00:26:38,466 --> 00:26:41,774 is a Munchkin who hanged himself from the lighting grid. 589 00:26:41,817 --> 00:26:43,732 Um, I saw the black blob 590 00:26:43,776 --> 00:26:45,429 that was supposedly the dead Munchkin. 591 00:26:47,649 --> 00:26:49,259 When was this? 592 00:26:49,303 --> 00:26:50,609 - During the filming of "Under the Rainbow." 593 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:54,395 I wasn't interested enough to get out a magnifier 594 00:26:54,438 --> 00:26:57,006 and-and check the validity. I bought it. 595 00:26:57,050 --> 00:26:58,921 Good story. 596 00:27:00,357 --> 00:27:02,011 - It went from being a stagehand caught on camera, 597 00:27:02,055 --> 00:27:04,274 to a stagehand who was depressed, 598 00:27:04,318 --> 00:27:06,625 and hung himself on camera, 599 00:27:06,668 --> 00:27:08,714 to an MGM executive 600 00:27:08,757 --> 00:27:10,454 who was so despairing of how much 601 00:27:10,498 --> 00:27:12,152 "The Wizard of Oz" was costing 602 00:27:12,195 --> 00:27:14,197 that he hung himself on camera, 603 00:27:14,241 --> 00:27:15,590 to an actress who hung herself 604 00:27:15,634 --> 00:27:17,505 because she didn't get the part of Dorothy, 605 00:27:17,548 --> 00:27:19,594 to a Munchkin who hung himself 606 00:27:19,638 --> 00:27:21,378 because Judy Garland wouldn't date him. 607 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:24,730 I get this from grade school kids 608 00:27:24,773 --> 00:27:26,383 and I don't mind it from grade school kids, 609 00:27:26,427 --> 00:27:28,559 but it's when adults who come up to me 610 00:27:28,603 --> 00:27:30,649 to say, "You know, there's a man hanging." 611 00:27:30,692 --> 00:27:32,302 And it's like.... 612 00:27:34,217 --> 00:27:35,610 Basically, one of the Munchkins hung himself 613 00:27:35,654 --> 00:27:37,568 on the set of "The Wizard of Oz". 614 00:27:39,222 --> 00:27:41,094 Fortunately, it was very far in the distance 615 00:27:41,137 --> 00:27:44,053 and it wasn't even noticed at the time of the release. 616 00:27:44,097 --> 00:27:46,926 It wasn't until some real true blue film buffs 617 00:27:46,969 --> 00:27:48,710 who watched the movie enough times 618 00:27:48,754 --> 00:27:50,756 happened to notice it one day. 619 00:27:50,799 --> 00:27:52,758 - There's a conspiracy within "The Wizard of Oz" 620 00:27:52,801 --> 00:27:54,455 that a Munchkin, um, 621 00:27:55,630 --> 00:27:58,154 hung himself in the background 622 00:27:58,198 --> 00:27:59,982 during one of the scenes. 623 00:28:00,026 --> 00:28:02,289 You see it right there on film, on certain copies. 624 00:28:02,332 --> 00:28:04,204 - Like what the fuck's goin' on over there? 625 00:28:04,247 --> 00:28:05,901 It's not on every copy. 626 00:28:05,945 --> 00:28:07,381 You have to have the collector's editions. 627 00:28:07,424 --> 00:28:09,296 This is the one you wanna own, 628 00:28:09,339 --> 00:28:11,298 because this is the only place to actually see 629 00:28:11,341 --> 00:28:13,517 the original hanging Munchkin footage. 630 00:28:13,561 --> 00:28:16,216 And of course, uh, it's priceless, 631 00:28:16,259 --> 00:28:17,826 so, I was very, very glad to acquire it 632 00:28:17,870 --> 00:28:19,828 uh, from this uh, dealer. 633 00:28:22,352 --> 00:28:23,832 - Oh no, he didn't know what he had! 634 00:28:23,876 --> 00:28:25,660 If he knew what he had, he wouldn't have sold it to me. 635 00:28:25,704 --> 00:28:27,880 That, that, that we know to be the truth. 636 00:28:29,403 --> 00:28:31,753 Now, this is an edition that collectors love, also. 637 00:28:31,797 --> 00:28:33,886 It's the 50th anniversary edition. 638 00:28:33,929 --> 00:28:35,844 Unfortunately, with this, 639 00:28:35,888 --> 00:28:39,152 they did find the alternate footage with the, 640 00:28:39,195 --> 00:28:41,023 the bird from the LA Zoo 641 00:28:41,067 --> 00:28:43,156 and they replaced uh, 642 00:28:43,199 --> 00:28:45,375 the-the hanging Munchkin footage with that footage. 643 00:28:45,419 --> 00:28:47,726 - We tried to get uh, 644 00:28:49,249 --> 00:28:51,381 like, the original copy. 645 00:28:51,425 --> 00:28:53,340 It's the oldest copy we found. 646 00:28:53,383 --> 00:28:55,342 It's literally VHS. 647 00:28:55,385 --> 00:28:57,474 And like I said, this is the re-mastered version, 648 00:28:57,518 --> 00:28:59,781 that now, they say it's a bird. 649 00:28:59,825 --> 00:29:02,088 And in the original version, 650 00:29:02,131 --> 00:29:04,873 it straight up looks like a Munchkin. 651 00:29:06,483 --> 00:29:09,008 Like a Munchkin. - Munchkin. 652 00:29:09,051 --> 00:29:10,705 - Munchkin. 653 00:29:10,749 --> 00:29:13,012 I'm gonna show you both versions 654 00:29:13,055 --> 00:29:14,709 of "The Wizard of Oz", 655 00:29:14,753 --> 00:29:16,929 of the, of the hanging Munchkin scene, 656 00:29:16,972 --> 00:29:19,279 which is one of the most iconic in 657 00:29:19,322 --> 00:29:20,584 "The Wizard of Oz" history, 658 00:29:20,628 --> 00:29:22,630 if not motion, picture history. 659 00:29:22,673 --> 00:29:24,850 Okay, here go, we're off to see the Wizard now. 660 00:29:24,893 --> 00:29:27,026 You see that? That's a, that's the bird. 661 00:29:29,332 --> 00:29:30,899 Let me freeze this. 662 00:29:30,943 --> 00:29:33,641 You see what is obviously an exotic bird, like an emu. 663 00:29:33,684 --> 00:29:35,556 They found a big, exotic bird. 664 00:29:35,599 --> 00:29:37,384 I don't know what the breed was, 665 00:29:37,427 --> 00:29:38,907 but it was a similar size to the Munchkin. 666 00:29:38,951 --> 00:29:41,388 They put that bird in the same corner of the room. 667 00:29:41,431 --> 00:29:42,998 This was, is sound stage number two. 668 00:29:43,042 --> 00:29:45,000 And they shot the same scene, 669 00:29:45,044 --> 00:29:46,828 but with a bird flapping around 670 00:29:46,872 --> 00:29:48,917 and replaced it in most prints, 671 00:29:48,961 --> 00:29:52,138 except for the print that leaked out. 672 00:29:52,181 --> 00:29:54,183 And this is the one collectors wanna see. 673 00:29:54,227 --> 00:29:57,056 This is the suicide of the anonymous Munchkin. 674 00:29:57,099 --> 00:29:59,449 Never been identified. Never will be. Um. 675 00:30:01,930 --> 00:30:03,802 - There! 676 00:30:03,845 --> 00:30:05,673 Pfft! Dead. 677 00:30:05,716 --> 00:30:08,589 His neck, neck is snapped instantly in a hanging, so. 678 00:30:11,897 --> 00:30:14,073 Look at that, swinging back and forth. Dead. 679 00:30:16,075 --> 00:30:19,078 People have shared the footage on YouTube, 680 00:30:19,121 --> 00:30:20,862 and some of these sorts of bootleg sites. 681 00:30:22,951 --> 00:30:24,561 Because of the times in which we are our living, 682 00:30:24,605 --> 00:30:27,260 there is a very "worthy" soul 683 00:30:27,303 --> 00:30:29,088 who has doctored the footage 684 00:30:32,613 --> 00:30:35,355 and posts it on YouTube, as if to say, 685 00:30:35,398 --> 00:30:37,226 there, you can see it is a hanging Munchkin 686 00:30:37,270 --> 00:30:39,228 and this is what it used to look like. 687 00:30:39,272 --> 00:30:41,056 And when the rumors started to go around, 688 00:30:41,100 --> 00:30:44,494 MGM took this out and dropped in a-a bird. 689 00:30:44,538 --> 00:30:46,757 Now it really is a bird. 690 00:30:46,801 --> 00:30:49,325 - That's the bird they photoshopped in, man. 691 00:30:49,369 --> 00:30:52,415 I have no problem debunking a conspiracy theory. 692 00:30:52,459 --> 00:30:54,853 Like, the whole Keanu Reeves being a reptilian. 693 00:30:54,896 --> 00:30:57,203 You know, I've pretty much debunked that one. 694 00:30:57,246 --> 00:30:59,161 But this one, I'm telling you guys, man, 695 00:30:59,205 --> 00:31:00,946 it's-it's for real. 696 00:31:00,989 --> 00:31:03,383 - If you watch the original, it's for real. 697 00:31:03,426 --> 00:31:05,776 - The bird is not in the... 698 00:31:05,820 --> 00:31:08,170 original copy. 699 00:31:08,214 --> 00:31:10,738 The bird is in the remade copy, 700 00:31:10,781 --> 00:31:12,827 and they put the bird there 701 00:31:12,871 --> 00:31:15,395 to make people say, you know, oh, it's a bird. 702 00:31:15,438 --> 00:31:17,005 It's hangin' right there. 703 00:31:17,049 --> 00:31:18,877 Now, that is not a bird. 704 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:20,791 There's no wings, 705 00:31:20,835 --> 00:31:23,882 and it's rockin' back and forth. 706 00:31:23,925 --> 00:31:25,666 I mean, it's there. 707 00:31:25,709 --> 00:31:27,755 I think there is a great danger, 708 00:31:27,798 --> 00:31:30,671 not only because it's inaccurate or disproportionate, 709 00:31:30,714 --> 00:31:33,369 but because it is omnipresent in today's world 710 00:31:33,413 --> 00:31:35,937 of looking for dreck and dark. 711 00:31:38,157 --> 00:31:40,420 There is just an essential purity 712 00:31:40,463 --> 00:31:42,335 about the "Oz" story 713 00:31:42,378 --> 00:31:44,815 and the "Oz" film. 714 00:31:44,859 --> 00:31:46,687 It was at a time when Judy was so excited 715 00:31:46,730 --> 00:31:48,689 about making that picture 716 00:31:48,732 --> 00:31:50,865 and so delighted to be making that picture. 717 00:31:50,909 --> 00:31:52,475 She was thrilled. 718 00:31:52,519 --> 00:31:54,173 It was well known on the set 719 00:31:54,216 --> 00:31:56,001 that if Judy cracked up at something, 720 00:31:56,044 --> 00:31:57,872 you had to take five minutes to let her laugh it 721 00:31:57,916 --> 00:31:59,700 out of her system. 722 00:31:59,743 --> 00:32:01,615 And when it came time to do her first scenes 723 00:32:01,658 --> 00:32:03,573 with Burt Lahr in the movie, 724 00:32:03,617 --> 00:32:05,488 these were the scenes where they meet the Cowardly Lion 725 00:32:05,532 --> 00:32:07,447 in the forest and he goes after Toto. 726 00:32:07,490 --> 00:32:10,319 - I'll get you, anyway, Peewee. 727 00:32:10,363 --> 00:32:12,191 And Judy rescues, Toto - picks up Toto 728 00:32:12,234 --> 00:32:14,149 and slaps the Lion, 729 00:32:14,193 --> 00:32:15,977 - Wah! 730 00:32:16,021 --> 00:32:17,631 - And Burt Lahr starts to cry. 731 00:32:17,674 --> 00:32:19,720 - What'd you do that for? 732 00:32:19,763 --> 00:32:21,635 - Well, they could not get this take. 733 00:32:21,678 --> 00:32:23,332 They did it two or three times. 734 00:32:23,376 --> 00:32:25,030 And every time Burt Lahr started to cry 735 00:32:25,073 --> 00:32:27,119 with the waterspouts built into his wig, 736 00:32:27,162 --> 00:32:29,077 and the water pouring down 737 00:32:29,121 --> 00:32:31,123 and him doing his whole cowardly lion bit. 738 00:32:31,166 --> 00:32:32,907 She would crack up. 739 00:32:32,951 --> 00:32:34,953 - She would break up every time. 740 00:32:34,996 --> 00:32:37,216 It is in the film. 741 00:32:37,259 --> 00:32:39,087 She picks up Toto, 742 00:32:39,131 --> 00:32:41,263 and she's starts to laugh, 743 00:32:41,307 --> 00:32:43,004 and she pulls the dog over in front of her face. 744 00:32:43,048 --> 00:32:44,788 It is heaven, 745 00:32:44,832 --> 00:32:46,529 and it's in the film. 746 00:32:46,573 --> 00:32:48,096 - She couldn't stop laughing, 747 00:32:48,140 --> 00:32:50,098 take, after take, after take. 748 00:32:50,142 --> 00:32:52,057 - It was an expensive picture. 749 00:32:52,100 --> 00:32:54,276 You know, they were running, they had to get the scene done. 750 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,539 And finally, after three or four takes of this, 751 00:32:56,583 --> 00:32:58,759 Victor Fleming took her behind the set 752 00:32:58,802 --> 00:33:00,891 behind one of the trees 753 00:33:00,935 --> 00:33:04,330 and he gave her a smart, little smack across the face. 754 00:33:08,812 --> 00:33:11,206 If that's how he handled things, 755 00:33:11,250 --> 00:33:13,774 well, it's too bad he had to slap her. 756 00:33:13,817 --> 00:33:16,907 He didn't punch her. He didn't beat her. 757 00:33:16,951 --> 00:33:19,736 It was just a sharp, little, you know, "Come on. 758 00:33:19,780 --> 00:33:22,043 Come to. Get with it here". 759 00:33:22,087 --> 00:33:24,132 - Well... 760 00:33:24,176 --> 00:33:26,047 if-if that's what happened, that's what happened. 761 00:33:26,091 --> 00:33:28,049 Um, you know, um... 762 00:33:29,355 --> 00:33:31,096 I don't know what else to say about that. 763 00:33:32,793 --> 00:33:34,664 Was it the right thing to do? 764 00:33:34,708 --> 00:33:37,624 Well, no, 765 00:33:37,667 --> 00:33:39,930 probably not, but what are you gonna do? 766 00:33:39,974 --> 00:33:41,584 You've gotta get the picture made. 767 00:33:43,543 --> 00:33:46,850 It was coded into her to want to please, 768 00:33:46,894 --> 00:33:51,290 to try to give out all the love she had inside her 769 00:33:51,333 --> 00:33:53,901 in hopes that it would come back to her. 770 00:33:53,944 --> 00:33:57,035 She said, I always felt unwanted. 771 00:33:57,078 --> 00:33:59,733 And she wasn't being overly dramatic when she said it. 772 00:34:01,604 --> 00:34:03,432 She found out that her mother 773 00:34:03,476 --> 00:34:05,956 had tried to have her aborted 774 00:34:08,568 --> 00:34:10,526 and a doctor friend of theirs warn them against it. 775 00:34:10,570 --> 00:34:12,137 So, the mother tried everything she could 776 00:34:12,180 --> 00:34:14,269 to induce a miscarriage. 777 00:34:15,879 --> 00:34:18,404 This is somebody who didn't have the protection 778 00:34:18,447 --> 00:34:20,623 within herself or in the people 779 00:34:20,667 --> 00:34:22,451 who were supposed to be taking care of her 780 00:34:22,495 --> 00:34:25,193 to withstand the concrete mixer 781 00:34:25,237 --> 00:34:26,716 that Hollywood could be. 782 00:34:28,675 --> 00:34:30,590 When my mother started 783 00:34:30,633 --> 00:34:32,418 "The Wizard of Oz", 784 00:34:32,461 --> 00:34:34,681 she was 15, when she started it 785 00:34:34,724 --> 00:34:36,378 and she finished it when she was 16. 786 00:34:38,293 --> 00:34:39,729 Your body starts to change. 787 00:34:41,601 --> 00:34:43,298 The character of Dorothy of course, 788 00:34:43,342 --> 00:34:45,692 was even younger in the book. 789 00:34:45,735 --> 00:34:49,348 And they wanted my mom to look like a child. 790 00:34:51,176 --> 00:34:52,655 They said, "You can't gain any weight". 791 00:34:55,005 --> 00:34:58,270 She had no idea that the studio 792 00:34:59,445 --> 00:35:02,056 had asked some of the doctors 793 00:35:02,100 --> 00:35:05,277 who worked at the studio, 794 00:35:07,322 --> 00:35:10,891 to give her what they called 795 00:35:12,632 --> 00:35:15,200 energy pills and or pep pills, 796 00:35:15,243 --> 00:35:17,637 so that she would keep 797 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:19,726 that childlike figure. 798 00:35:21,162 --> 00:35:23,599 Pep pills are names for a gradity of barbiturates 799 00:35:23,643 --> 00:35:25,558 and prescription drugs. 800 00:35:25,601 --> 00:35:28,604 The young pill addict can move from sedatives like Doriden, 801 00:35:28,648 --> 00:35:30,432 "red devils" 802 00:35:30,476 --> 00:35:32,826 to amphetamines. 803 00:35:32,869 --> 00:35:35,916 - That would cut her appetite 804 00:35:35,959 --> 00:35:38,484 and that would give her a little bit of energy. 805 00:35:38,527 --> 00:35:41,400 And then when my grandmother said she can't sleep at night, 806 00:35:41,443 --> 00:35:43,358 then they gave her a sleeping pill. 807 00:35:44,794 --> 00:35:48,015 And they didn't go out to harm her. 808 00:35:48,058 --> 00:35:50,191 They didn't what they were doing. 809 00:35:52,454 --> 00:35:55,065 They had no idea about addiction. 810 00:35:56,502 --> 00:36:00,070 They had no idea about how this would harm people. 811 00:36:02,725 --> 00:36:04,684 She developed a dependency on them 812 00:36:05,989 --> 00:36:08,209 that nobody knew a dependency was probable. 813 00:36:10,646 --> 00:36:12,735 I've never blamed the studio 814 00:36:12,779 --> 00:36:14,650 for what happened to my mom 815 00:36:16,261 --> 00:36:19,046 as far as the addiction 816 00:36:21,962 --> 00:36:24,443 that encompassed her adult life 817 00:36:24,486 --> 00:36:26,967 because the-the studio 818 00:36:27,010 --> 00:36:29,274 would never go out to harm its biggest money maker. 819 00:36:31,189 --> 00:36:33,408 You were a product. 820 00:36:35,976 --> 00:36:38,239 The actors were never really, 821 00:36:38,283 --> 00:36:40,546 truly thought about as people. 822 00:36:42,287 --> 00:36:45,507 They were part of the factory. 823 00:36:50,512 --> 00:36:53,254 We know that the studio did harm. 824 00:36:53,298 --> 00:36:54,777 We know that now. 825 00:36:56,518 --> 00:36:59,042 We know that amphetamines 826 00:37:01,828 --> 00:37:03,308 and we know that sleeping pills, 827 00:37:03,351 --> 00:37:05,658 you don't give that to kids. 828 00:37:05,701 --> 00:37:06,920 We know that. 829 00:37:06,963 --> 00:37:08,748 They didn't know that then. 830 00:37:08,791 --> 00:37:11,316 And even if they did, 831 00:37:11,359 --> 00:37:13,143 would they have cared? 832 00:37:14,797 --> 00:37:16,364 I don't know. 833 00:37:16,408 --> 00:37:18,236 I don't know. 834 00:37:20,020 --> 00:37:21,978 They got around the child labor laws. 835 00:37:22,022 --> 00:37:24,938 They, they did harmful things. 836 00:37:26,853 --> 00:37:29,116 My mother had breakdowns at MGM 837 00:37:29,159 --> 00:37:32,250 because she went from movie to movie, to movie, 838 00:37:32,293 --> 00:37:35,165 to movie, to movie. She never had a vacation. 839 00:37:35,209 --> 00:37:37,211 But again, 840 00:37:37,255 --> 00:37:40,475 I don't think you can blame people for ignorance. 841 00:37:40,519 --> 00:37:44,697 We all now know about the world of addiction. 842 00:37:46,046 --> 00:37:48,309 They didn't. 843 00:37:48,353 --> 00:37:50,572 When I... started to... 844 00:37:52,748 --> 00:37:55,838 dabble in the world of cocaine and alcohol, 845 00:37:58,885 --> 00:38:01,279 I realized that once I found out 846 00:38:02,410 --> 00:38:05,108 about my family history 847 00:38:05,152 --> 00:38:07,023 that I fit right in. 848 00:38:08,547 --> 00:38:12,028 And now that I've been sober 34 years, 849 00:38:13,465 --> 00:38:15,728 I think to myself, 850 00:38:15,771 --> 00:38:18,383 that's why this happened. 851 00:38:18,426 --> 00:38:20,428 It happened to her. 852 00:38:20,472 --> 00:38:22,038 It happened to me. 853 00:38:23,736 --> 00:38:27,305 And it was incredibly fulfilling 854 00:38:30,917 --> 00:38:33,876 to find out that I didn't have to blame myself. 855 00:38:35,704 --> 00:38:37,837 And I didn't have to blame her. 856 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,883 And that I learned to forgive. 857 00:38:43,277 --> 00:38:45,061 But you don't have to learn to forget. 858 00:38:51,459 --> 00:38:53,374 You hear all these stories in Hollywood 859 00:38:53,418 --> 00:38:55,507 and no matter how you phrase it, you know, 860 00:38:55,550 --> 00:38:57,596 it is something that is kind of sad. 861 00:38:59,424 --> 00:39:02,644 But part of what I love about Judy is that she, 862 00:39:02,688 --> 00:39:04,603 throughout her life, references this time 863 00:39:04,646 --> 00:39:07,257 as being the happiest that she ever was 864 00:39:09,521 --> 00:39:11,827 and how she constantly was always trying to search 865 00:39:11,871 --> 00:39:14,047 for that kind of rainbow again. 866 00:39:15,744 --> 00:39:17,398 As far as Judy goes, 867 00:39:17,442 --> 00:39:20,445 I-I know that this was one of her, 868 00:39:20,488 --> 00:39:22,751 you know, her best memories. 869 00:39:24,144 --> 00:39:26,755 But I feel like her experience was 870 00:39:26,799 --> 00:39:28,366 much like Hollywood has always been. 871 00:39:30,411 --> 00:39:32,500 "The Wizard of Oz" the reason I love it so much, 872 00:39:32,544 --> 00:39:34,676 I have to say that that is because of her performance. 873 00:39:36,809 --> 00:39:38,680 Who she is in that movie draws you in as a child, 874 00:39:38,724 --> 00:39:40,421 and she got me hooked. 875 00:39:40,465 --> 00:39:42,597 So, because of her, 876 00:39:42,641 --> 00:39:44,599 I became obsessed with this movie 877 00:39:44,643 --> 00:39:47,994 and seeing her other films, 878 00:39:48,037 --> 00:39:49,474 I just fell in love with her more and more. 879 00:39:52,041 --> 00:39:54,435 Do we remove some magic from a narrative 880 00:39:54,479 --> 00:39:57,438 by busting a myth about that narrative? 881 00:39:57,482 --> 00:39:59,440 I submit, no. 882 00:39:59,484 --> 00:40:01,399 I submit that no one ever minds 883 00:40:01,442 --> 00:40:04,184 knowing more about a subject. 884 00:40:05,838 --> 00:40:08,318 You can certainly demystify things 885 00:40:08,362 --> 00:40:10,669 and still celebrate them at the same time. 886 00:40:12,584 --> 00:40:16,457 I take it as axiomatic that humans, as explorers, 887 00:40:16,501 --> 00:40:18,807 are evolutionarily driven 888 00:40:18,851 --> 00:40:20,766 to find the truth of things. 889 00:40:22,245 --> 00:40:25,031 We have always sent our best and brightest 890 00:40:25,074 --> 00:40:26,728 to the edge of the known to report back what they find. 891 00:40:28,948 --> 00:40:31,907 While some people may complain 892 00:40:31,951 --> 00:40:35,302 that in telling the true stories about some narrative 893 00:40:35,345 --> 00:40:38,174 we're somehow reducing some of its magic. 894 00:40:38,218 --> 00:40:40,263 I don't think that's true for most people. 895 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,747 I wouldn't necessarily attach 896 00:40:45,791 --> 00:40:48,141 the term "cursed" to "The Wizard of Oz". 897 00:40:48,184 --> 00:40:50,273 There were elements of it 898 00:40:50,317 --> 00:40:52,232 that-that might have been a little cursed, 899 00:40:52,275 --> 00:40:55,540 but the-the blessing that that film 900 00:40:55,583 --> 00:40:57,280 was to the cast, 901 00:40:59,021 --> 00:41:01,502 and to the American cinema, 902 00:41:03,591 --> 00:41:05,550 I just don't think you could call "The Wizard of Oz" 903 00:41:05,593 --> 00:41:07,595 entirely cursed. 904 00:41:07,639 --> 00:41:09,292 It's... that's certain. 905 00:41:11,077 --> 00:41:14,210 - I think if people think it's a sad film, 906 00:41:14,254 --> 00:41:16,212 it might be... 907 00:41:18,606 --> 00:41:21,043 because of what happened to Judy Garland. 908 00:41:25,352 --> 00:41:27,833 Her experience at MGM 909 00:41:27,876 --> 00:41:29,878 led in some sense, at least, 910 00:41:31,358 --> 00:41:34,579 to a life that it ended 911 00:41:37,016 --> 00:41:39,279 in her mid-forties. 912 00:41:42,630 --> 00:41:46,199 And the success I think of "Over the Rainbow" 913 00:41:46,242 --> 00:41:48,941 even now is because it... 914 00:41:51,334 --> 00:41:53,249 has an emotional jolt 915 00:41:53,293 --> 00:41:55,513 that ties it to Judy Garland, 916 00:41:57,427 --> 00:42:00,822 looking up at the sky and wishing 917 00:42:00,866 --> 00:42:03,259 that she were over the rainbow.