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WWW.MY-SUBS.CO
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OK, how about this?
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Why would a guy like you
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put his own needs ahead of the
lives of so many innocent people?
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Women and children.
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How can you sit here,
knowing, by not talking,
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you're putting those people
in danger like that?
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It makes no sense to me.
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They're out there right now, mate. OK?
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And we both know they are.
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I mean,
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how many are we talking, do you reckon?
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Ten? It could be 20?
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Somewhere in between?
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I mean, just for now let's
call it a dozen, all right?
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You don't want the lives
of 12 innocent people
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on your hands. You can't do.
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Look...
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I'll tell you what I see
right now in this room...
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is a good man who's made mistakes.
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Now, good men make
mistakes all the time.
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All you have to do is help us fix it.
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Do that and we're all gonna be fine.
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But carry on like this, Jay,
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and you're gonna have
blood on your hands.
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It's too strong.
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- That last bit was too strong.
- No, needs to be strong.
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- I agree.
- Strong is good.
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- That's what I think.
- Especially with the clock.
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Look...
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The risk is, if you guilt him upfront,
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"blood on his hands" and all that,
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the moment he gets in here
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and for whatever reason it
doesn't pan out, then...
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he can withdraw completely.
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The interview structure should...
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Structure's out the window, Tony.
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We're all fans of the structure,
but the structure needs time.
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Yes, and this case is live.
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More so than anything we've ever done.
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Hey... remember what we
talked about, you and me?
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You know this case.
You're good at what you do.
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He's said nothing yet since his arrest,
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but that doesn't mean you
can't get him started.
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All the personal stuff: him,
his family... That's all on the money.
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You can hit him with that all day long.
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We don't have all day long.
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Ignore him.
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He knows what we mean.
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We have the suspect.
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Bringing him up for questioning.
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When I started this
department a year ago,
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I had over 200 applicants
and I chose you.
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Both of you.
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You hold on to that, please.
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The time now is 3:18 p.m.
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On the 17th of January, 2019.
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Present in the room, Detective
Constable Hugo Duffy.
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Detective Inspector Paul Ottager.
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If you could state your name, please.
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And a Jamaal or "Jay" Muthassim.
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It's worth saying you were
given the right to a solicitor
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but you've chosen not to
have one present, correct?
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We want to work with you on this, Jay.
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And we don't have much time.
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Want to know what else you don't have?
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Sorry?
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Say what you've got to say,
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then I'll tell you what
you're not getting,
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and you can get on with your day,
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and I can get on with mine.
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- Synced & corrected by MementMori -
-- www.MY-SUBS.com --
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Your lorry, your P-reg HGV. You
drove it through Dover last night.
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Saturday.
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You came in via France
from Bremen, Germany.
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You were arrested in Harrow
just before four, at your home,
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by which time you had parted
company with the haul, yeah?
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- Where did you leave it?
- No comment.
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You must've delivered
it to someone. Who?
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What were their names?
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What was in the back of the truck, Jay?
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No comment, no comment...
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no comment.
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Still not registering, Jay?
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The trouble you are in, here?
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Look...
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I drive trucks.
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Yeah?
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I don't ask questions.
That's not how it works.
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So, when you left Dover, your
lorry was flagged on the system.
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They should have pulled you
over, but they didn't.
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So they put a flag on your truck
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intending to pull you later on the M25.
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But you never made it that far.
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Says who?
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Says us.
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- Yeah, but who told you?
- ANPR told us.
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ANPR is a number plate
recognition system
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- used to clock number plates.
- I know what ANPR is, friend,
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but to get flagged on that you
have to drive past the cameras.
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- And you never did?
- You tell me.
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You avoided the cameras?
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Maybe I just went a different way.
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- You make a habit of that?
- Maybe, yeah.
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I like to mix it up.
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That's allowed. I know it is.
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Continue.
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OK, let me tell you
something you may not know.
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The previous week, so
the previous Saturday,
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another truck, similar to yours,
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came in through Dover at
a similar time of day,
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also en route from Bremen, Germany.
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Wow.
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The lorry had the same
CMR reference as yours.
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CMR report is the document which
logs every truck's movements.
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I know what CMR is.
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Oh, so you appreciate the link, yes?
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And that truck was pulled over, Jay.
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It was pulled over and found to
contain seven Syrian immigrants,
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all alive, but not very well.
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All alive, but very cold.
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I don't choose the CMR code.
You get what you're given.
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The driver of that truck claimed not
to know what he had in the back.
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Said what you said, basically.
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Didn't ask, didn't want to know.
Just took the job.
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But that didn't mean he wasn't charged.
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He was still smuggling illegal migrants.
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But you know what he did,
Jay? He did a deal.
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He was able to reduce
any potential sentence
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in return for information.
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Go on, ask him.
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Ask him what information.
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They wanted the names of the
people who paid him to do the job.
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Which he gave.
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And it turned out they lived,
Jay... drum-roll please...
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near Harrow.
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Good old Harrow.
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But anyway, back to the
evidence we do not have.
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Oh, this is nice. You'll like this one.
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This one starts with a picture.
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This is Larissa.
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Larissa means "cheerful" in English.
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She was on the truck.
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- Not my truck.
- Not your truck, no.
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The one from the week before,
with the same CMR code as yours.
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Now, she's not looking particularly
cheerful here, granted.
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But that's with good reason, Jay.
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She's missing her kids.
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They were meant to be on the next truck.
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A truck scheduled, she says,
for the following week.
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The following Saturday.
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That's your truck, Jay.
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That's why there's such an
urgency here, in your case.
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But there's a difference between
your case and his, isn't there?
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Because this is ongoing,
Jay. This is live.
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That's why there's all those
people through there, watching,
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ready to move,
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wanting you to tell us, waiting, Jay...
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for you.
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Doesn't believe us.
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Which is ironic.
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- Explain.
- Well, for one thing...
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he doesn't think there's anyone
on the other side of that mirror.
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It's most likely a bluff.
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Well, that's easy.
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I can help you with that.
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If I can work out how...
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you should be able to see...
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Detectives Hobbs, Myerscough,
Warren and Petit,
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Adele Addo, SIO of the team
that arrested you at your home,
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members of Immigration Enforcement...
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you're not allowed to
know their names...
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and of the National Crime Agency...
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you are definitely not
allowed to know theirs.
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No need to wave.
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You may not want to believe this...
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but we're trying to stop you
from going down for life, Jay.
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Because that is what will happen
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if the truck you drove
contains immigrants
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and you don't tell us where you left it.
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If we don't find the trailer, Jay,
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and they don't survive, that is the
only sentence a judge can pass.
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He or she will have no option.
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- I've not done that.
- No? You never made it to Harrow.
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- Says who?
- Says the ANPR, again.
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Which would have picked
you up if you did.
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So tell us where it is, Jay.
Just put this behind you.
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Look, we've got people on the
other side of that glass
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ready to track this on maps.
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Ready to call in officers on
the ground to help search.
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00:10:47,510 --> 00:10:51,739
Medics, waiting to help treat
the migrants you abandoned.
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00:10:51,740 --> 00:10:54,820
Now point them in the right
direction and put this behind you.
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Tell us where they are, mate.
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That's all this needs.
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No comment.
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Six months!
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Six months to get an arrest and
he's about to wriggle out of it.
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You can see it.
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00:11:45,250 --> 00:11:48,110
The old brain-box working.
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Knows he's in the shit.
He's just trying to figure out
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00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:51,899
how much shit there is.
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What else we might find.
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You disagree?
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00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,190
You look like you disagree.
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Just listening.
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00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:08,230
You tend to find that people
like him, they're connected.
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00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,030
Part of a web of all sorts of things.
207
00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:13,229
He could just be frightened.
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00:12:13,230 --> 00:12:14,839
Too scared to tell us where it is
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00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:16,579
because he's terrified
we might be right.
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00:12:16,580 --> 00:12:18,029
That's the radius.
211
00:12:18,030 --> 00:12:20,859
From the last ANPR reading on the M20
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00:12:20,860 --> 00:12:22,589
to the furthest point
he could've traveled
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00:12:22,590 --> 00:12:25,389
in order to be back in Harrow
for the time of his arrest.
214
00:12:25,390 --> 00:12:28,630
That's the only area he could
have abandoned the trailer.
215
00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:31,910
Are these the right people?
216
00:12:31,950 --> 00:12:33,919
Look, you run a unit dedicated to this
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00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:36,030
and I just need to hear it from you.
218
00:12:36,430 --> 00:12:39,869
Are these the very best people you
have to be asking these questions?
219
00:12:39,870 --> 00:12:42,149
No, I just thought I'd
give it to whoever.
220
00:12:45,680 --> 00:12:47,269
We need to push.
221
00:12:47,270 --> 00:12:49,509
No, we need to be careful, Detective.
222
00:12:49,510 --> 00:12:53,180
Go too fast, and this will
all take ten times longer.
223
00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:57,580
What about noise?
224
00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,670
Did you hear anything from the
trailer as you were driving?
225
00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:04,749
No comment.
226
00:13:04,750 --> 00:13:07,990
People shouting? Or... crying?
227
00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:11,870
Pleading to be let out
because it was too cold?
228
00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,620
Or because they'd been in the
back, in the dark, for 22 hours?
229
00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:19,380
No comment.
230
00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:22,599
Then again, you hear a lot of stories
231
00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:24,299
about migrants being told to stay silent
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00:13:24,300 --> 00:13:26,669
when they're smuggled into this country.
233
00:13:26,670 --> 00:13:29,460
For their own sakes, of course.
But maybe they were too...
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00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:32,029
terrified to cry.
235
00:13:32,030 --> 00:13:34,260
Maybe they were so cold,
they were no longer able to.
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00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:36,700
Hugo.
237
00:13:39,680 --> 00:13:42,069
Interview suspended at 3:32 p.m.
238
00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:52,460
Maybe they found the truck.
239
00:13:58,830 --> 00:14:02,460
They found his tachograph
in his food recycling bin.
240
00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,599
It's the card that carries all
the data from his journeys:
241
00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,389
average speeds, recorded layovers,
a full record of locations.
242
00:14:09,390 --> 00:14:11,179
The tachograph's data is being uploaded
243
00:14:11,180 --> 00:14:12,819
and it will come through on email.
244
00:14:12,820 --> 00:14:14,619
Even if it doesn't give us the location,
245
00:14:14,620 --> 00:14:16,459
it should narrow things right down.
246
00:14:16,460 --> 00:14:18,269
Providing it was plugged in.
247
00:14:18,270 --> 00:14:20,939
- True.
- Those cards can be removed.
248
00:14:20,940 --> 00:14:22,509
It's illegal to remove the card.
249
00:14:22,510 --> 00:14:24,900
So, if that's what he's done
it would show premeditation.
250
00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:27,460
Has the email arrived?
251
00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:29,380
Not yet.
252
00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,589
Before it does, we should have Paul
and Hugo resume the interview.
253
00:14:32,590 --> 00:14:34,629
They don't need to know
what's on there. Not yet.
254
00:14:34,630 --> 00:14:36,909
Not knowing what's on
there keeps this clean.
255
00:14:36,910 --> 00:14:39,439
They cannot say the data gives
the truck's whereabouts
256
00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:41,099
if they know that it doesn't.
257
00:14:41,100 --> 00:14:42,870
Yeah, it makes them liars.
258
00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:44,670
I mean, look at him.
259
00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:48,269
He didn't know what was in
the back of that trailer.
260
00:14:48,270 --> 00:14:49,419
Not when he first took the job.
261
00:14:49,420 --> 00:14:52,760
He's just a bloke who needed some
cash, got way out of his depth,
262
00:14:52,770 --> 00:14:55,700
and now he's trying to cover
his tracks. He's rattled.
263
00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:57,679
And while he is,
264
00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:59,510
while we're looking at the data,
265
00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,070
Paul and Hugo have a window.
266
00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:05,420
There are more senior people
in this room than me,
267
00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,510
but if it is a suggestion
you're after...
268
00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:12,820
now might be the time
to get up in his grill.
269
00:15:16,100 --> 00:15:17,239
It's not mine, mate!
270
00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:19,150
- How does that work?
- It's not my card!
271
00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,219
So some other driver drove
around to your place
272
00:15:21,220 --> 00:15:23,589
and hid their tachograph
in your food bin?
273
00:15:23,590 --> 00:15:26,389
- Maybe you hid it there.
- How stupid are you?
274
00:15:26,390 --> 00:15:28,460
How stupid do you think we are?
275
00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,189
What's the point in planting
a card full of data?
276
00:15:31,190 --> 00:15:33,579
All the card is good for is
telling us where you've been,
277
00:15:33,580 --> 00:15:36,099
and we don't know where
you've been, do we?
278
00:15:36,100 --> 00:15:38,550
We can't plant evidence we don't have.
279
00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,430
So, it is yours. Yes?
280
00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:46,950
So you're lying.
281
00:15:47,390 --> 00:15:48,510
Yes?
282
00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:51,830
You're a liar. Concealing evidence, now.
283
00:15:54,130 --> 00:15:55,779
You gonna tell us what's on that card,
284
00:15:55,780 --> 00:15:58,499
or do we have to look
it up for ourselves?
285
00:15:58,500 --> 00:16:00,219
You gonna let those people freeze
286
00:16:00,220 --> 00:16:02,339
and starve and be terrorised any longer,
287
00:16:02,340 --> 00:16:04,379
or do we have to spend crucial minutes
288
00:16:04,380 --> 00:16:06,469
trying to find them for ourselves?
289
00:16:08,180 --> 00:16:11,309
That's as far as we get.
He switched it off after that.
290
00:16:11,310 --> 00:16:13,699
That still brings our
search area right down.
291
00:16:13,700 --> 00:16:15,390
Where's the truck, Jay?
292
00:16:16,100 --> 00:16:18,469
All this going on,
all these people stuck,
293
00:16:18,470 --> 00:16:20,710
and you're nothing but a liar, Jay.
294
00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,339
Where's the truck, Jay? Tell
us where the truck is, Jay.
295
00:16:25,340 --> 00:16:27,699
Women and children, Jay.
296
00:16:27,700 --> 00:16:30,579
You're a liar. Redeem yourself, Jay.
297
00:16:30,580 --> 00:16:33,979
Where's the truck, Jay? These
are people's lives, Jay.
298
00:16:33,980 --> 00:16:35,619
Where is the truck?
299
00:16:35,620 --> 00:16:36,739
Where, Jay?
300
00:16:36,740 --> 00:16:38,939
Where is the truck? Where, Jay?
301
00:16:38,940 --> 00:16:40,469
- Where's the truck, Jay?
- Paul.
302
00:16:40,470 --> 00:16:41,869
Shut up. Jay!
303
00:16:41,870 --> 00:16:43,869
Where the fuck's the truck?
304
00:16:43,870 --> 00:16:44,900
Jay!
305
00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,229
Where the fuck is the truck?
306
00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:06,629
Fine.
307
00:17:06,630 --> 00:17:08,430
The data's arrived, yes?
308
00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:11,350
Well, we'll hang him on that, then.
309
00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:15,459
Interview suspended at 3:40 p.m.
310
00:17:16,470 --> 00:17:19,140
If he's wiped it? If he's
deleted what's on there?
311
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:21,180
Have you deleted what's on there?
312
00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,429
Doesn't matter, does it? You can
retrieve the data from the cab.
313
00:17:25,430 --> 00:17:26,459
And if he's tried,
314
00:17:26,460 --> 00:17:29,190
then he knows he's only
incriminated himself further.
315
00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:51,790
Did you know what was in the back?
316
00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:01,790
If you're right...
317
00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:05,149
- I'm not... I'm not saying you are...
- No.
318
00:18:05,150 --> 00:18:08,220
... but for the purposes of this, uh...
319
00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,630
If there are... people in there...
320
00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:15,380
and I tell you where it is,
321
00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:20,430
everyone's going to know that
it was me that told you...
322
00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:22,100
aren't they?
323
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:27,110
Yeah.
324
00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:33,310
What about me?
325
00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,270
You tell me there's people in there...
326
00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:40,150
kids in there...
327
00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:42,990
What about me?
328
00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:45,390
What about my kids?
329
00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:48,225
What are they going to do to us
330
00:18:48,226 --> 00:18:50,740
when they find out that
it was me that told you?
331
00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:52,830
There's protection.
332
00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,669
I don't want protection.
I'm protecting myself.
333
00:18:57,670 --> 00:18:58,860
I want a solicitor.
334
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,779
Well, that's going to take time, Jay.
335
00:19:05,780 --> 00:19:07,309
You don't want to waste time.
336
00:19:07,310 --> 00:19:09,980
I want a solicitor.
337
00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:17,310
Please.
338
00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,149
Hello. Are you Mr Walker?
339
00:19:23,150 --> 00:19:24,910
Yes. One second.
340
00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,540
- Yes, and you are?
- I'm Ms Warren.
341
00:19:28,550 --> 00:19:32,790
We're now looking at a 350-acre
area of woodland for the trailer.
342
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,399
- And exactly how big is that?
- Hyde Park-ish.
343
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,189
We've got a helicopter up and
70 officers on the ground.
344
00:19:39,190 --> 00:19:42,710
So we're gonna find this thing.
It's just whether we find it in time.
345
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:45,319
Solicitor's having
five minutes with him.
346
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:46,709
That was quick.
347
00:19:46,710 --> 00:19:49,340
Vanessa called him in earlier
in case he changed his mind.
348
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:52,350
Kyle.
349
00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:53,990
- Hugo.
- Huh.
350
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:59,100
OK, so this is about ownership now.
351
00:19:59,110 --> 00:20:00,179
He knows we'll find it.
352
00:20:00,180 --> 00:20:03,469
He just needs to understand that he
can be the one to guide us to it.
353
00:20:03,470 --> 00:20:04,940
It's not too late for him to cooperate,
354
00:20:04,950 --> 00:20:07,989
and that will help him help
his sentence. All right?
355
00:20:07,990 --> 00:20:10,579
And use the solicitor.
Make sure he feels invested.
356
00:20:10,580 --> 00:20:13,710
Yeah, and try not to look
so relaxed, mate, yeah?
357
00:20:14,170 --> 00:20:16,909
My client would like
to state definitively
358
00:20:16,910 --> 00:20:19,339
that he had no knowledge of the contents
359
00:20:19,340 --> 00:20:21,349
of the trailer he was driving.
360
00:20:21,350 --> 00:20:23,099
- Thank you.
- And he still doesn't.
361
00:20:23,100 --> 00:20:24,350
Thank you.
362
00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:30,310
Just before we came in, DC Petit
here, he asked me a question.
363
00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:35,990
He said, how long was it before they
found a certain lorry in France?
364
00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,059
So I told him it was 25 hours,
365
00:20:39,060 --> 00:20:40,719
then he asked about the
weather conditions
366
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:42,540
relating to that particular case,
367
00:20:42,550 --> 00:20:44,800
which I explained were similar
to the weather conditions
368
00:20:44,810 --> 00:20:47,100
we've been experiencing here
over the past few days.
369
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:49,869
Now those details are helpful
and relevant here, Jay,
370
00:20:49,870 --> 00:20:53,029
because they relate to a
trailer much like yours,
371
00:20:53,030 --> 00:20:55,300
that was abandoned near
the Mont Blanc Tunnel...
372
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,500
and found to contain 19 migrants...
373
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,190
five of whom were still alive.
374
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:05,439
So that gives you an idea about how long
375
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,060
people can survive in
lorries like yours.
376
00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:12,060
You have children, yeah?
377
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:13,670
Boys.
378
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:15,740
Eight and three.
379
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,270
Larissa's children, they're older.
380
00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:21,820
Eleven and nine.
381
00:21:22,120 --> 00:21:25,790
Girls. So it's not...
That's not quite the same.
382
00:21:34,360 --> 00:21:36,510
That's who she's frightened of losing.
383
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,499
One of my colleagues
told her not to worry.
384
00:21:42,500 --> 00:21:45,549
But I can't imagine that helped.
They must be pretty cold.
385
00:21:45,550 --> 00:21:48,390
- Hold on...
- If they're in there, of course.
386
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,029
With that in mind, we're gonna refrain
387
00:21:52,030 --> 00:21:54,349
from asking you too many
more questions now, Jay.
388
00:21:54,350 --> 00:21:56,899
This is simply about offering you
389
00:21:56,900 --> 00:22:00,189
the opportunity to give us
the information we need
390
00:22:00,190 --> 00:22:02,630
in order to save lives.
391
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,269
Forgive me, and correct
me if I'm wrong here,
392
00:22:08,270 --> 00:22:10,639
but you have no proper
evidence to suggest
393
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,260
that my client had any migrants
in the back of his lorry.
394
00:22:13,270 --> 00:22:14,519
Let's just agree that now.
395
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:16,779
We have the CMR report.
396
00:22:16,780 --> 00:22:19,220
Yes, a link between two vehicles.
397
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:21,990
And... that's all you have?
398
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,439
And you've used that one point as a
solitary stick to beat him with?
399
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,699
If you mean we've used evidence
as a means to question a suspect
400
00:22:29,700 --> 00:22:30,709
then, yes.
401
00:22:30,710 --> 00:22:33,070
You've berated him. Frightened him.
402
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,060
- Set out to upset him.
- You don't know that.
403
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:38,950
I know what I heard out in the corridor.
404
00:22:42,120 --> 00:22:43,479
The tachograph data.
405
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,439
It narrows down the area of the
truck's location considerably.
406
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,620
We don't know everything, but
in an hour or so we will.
407
00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:52,140
Because we will find it.
408
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:54,439
By which time, as I've explained...
409
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:58,309
And this is why I mention the lorry
found in France last year...
410
00:22:58,310 --> 00:23:02,029
if there are migrants in the
back, these girls or otherwise,
411
00:23:02,030 --> 00:23:03,140
it could well be too late.
412
00:23:04,890 --> 00:23:06,739
So, this is a chance now, Jay,
413
00:23:06,740 --> 00:23:08,709
for you to tell us where the trailer is.
414
00:23:08,710 --> 00:23:10,499
Do that, and we can
factor your cooperation
415
00:23:10,500 --> 00:23:12,589
into the charges you'll face.
416
00:23:12,590 --> 00:23:15,799
Your sentence as an unwitting
collaborator could be vastly reduced
417
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:17,109
if you help us now.
418
00:23:17,110 --> 00:23:19,549
- Understood.
- Jay?
419
00:23:19,550 --> 00:23:22,419
- My client understands that too.
- Jay?
420
00:23:22,420 --> 00:23:25,499
But the weight of evidence
is not there in my view.
421
00:23:25,500 --> 00:23:28,349
You talk about this
truck in France. Why?
422
00:23:28,350 --> 00:23:30,379
Because a crime like this,
423
00:23:30,380 --> 00:23:32,739
migrants found dead in
the back of some lorry,
424
00:23:32,740 --> 00:23:36,380
that's never happened before in
this country, not specifically.
425
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:39,260
That's true, isn't it, Detective?
426
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,859
- There's always a first.
- So, that is true.
427
00:23:43,860 --> 00:23:47,709
Criminal enterprises carry out
legitimate business all the time.
428
00:23:47,710 --> 00:23:49,179
That's what you think's happening?
429
00:23:49,180 --> 00:23:50,659
He could have anything in the back.
430
00:23:50,660 --> 00:23:52,099
He could have had heroin.
431
00:23:52,100 --> 00:23:54,699
Could have had furniture, stationery...
432
00:23:54,700 --> 00:23:57,140
My Little Ponies...
433
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,109
I believe Jay wanted you in here
to help negotiate a possible deal.
434
00:24:03,110 --> 00:24:04,819
That's right, isn't it, Jay?
435
00:24:04,820 --> 00:24:08,020
I don't want to speak for you,
but that's the impression I got.
436
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,619
He and I have been in
here from the start.
437
00:24:10,620 --> 00:24:12,499
So, with respect,
438
00:24:12,500 --> 00:24:15,710
I don't think My Little Ponies...
439
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,069
have ever been part of his thinking.
440
00:24:18,070 --> 00:24:21,300
I think he genuinely wants to help,
but I don't think he knows how.
441
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,030
That's where you come in,
because he needs your guidance.
442
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,630
- He's getting my guidance.
- Yeah. Maybe.
443
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:28,910
Maybe?
444
00:24:29,580 --> 00:24:31,519
There's the kind of
guidance that he's after,
445
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:33,179
that gets us an outcome,
446
00:24:33,180 --> 00:24:35,079
and then there's the
more general guidance
447
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,619
that sees you assert your authority.
448
00:24:37,620 --> 00:24:38,789
Which is impressive.
449
00:24:38,790 --> 00:24:42,379
Don't get me wrong, we all enjoy
watching you on your game,
450
00:24:42,380 --> 00:24:44,230
but it's not exactly helping.
451
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,820
- So I'm wasting your time?
- No, you're wasting his.
452
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:50,790
And the people in the back of his truck.
453
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,660
When was the last time you
offered my client a drink?
454
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,470
You have a drink. You're all sorted.
455
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,349
He can have one.
So can you. It's no problem.
456
00:25:15,350 --> 00:25:17,659
- There's a machine in the corridor.
- Yes.
457
00:25:17,660 --> 00:25:20,509
And another in the
observation room, yes?
458
00:25:20,510 --> 00:25:21,540
No.
459
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:23,670
There isn't?
460
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:25,470
No.
461
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,470
So, it's the machine or nothing?
462
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:31,540
Yes.
463
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:36,629
It's just that I've been sitting
out in that corridor, waiting,
464
00:25:36,630 --> 00:25:40,100
and in all the time I was there,
nobody used that machine.
465
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,300
Not once. Including you.
466
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:45,900
So where did you get your drink?
467
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:49,180
Sorry?
468
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:51,790
Where did you get your drink?
469
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:56,510
Or are you topping up your cup
with your own supply of...
470
00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:58,750
cold coffee?
471
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,269
You've lost me, mate. I'm sorry.
472
00:26:03,270 --> 00:26:06,149
- Well, I'm... I'm not a detective.
- No.
473
00:26:06,150 --> 00:26:07,840
But tell me,
474
00:26:07,850 --> 00:26:12,550
at the risk of, as you say,
wasting everyone's time...
475
00:26:13,360 --> 00:26:15,260
What's in the mug?
476
00:26:17,020 --> 00:26:19,579
- This is not relevant.
- He just needs to answer.
477
00:26:19,580 --> 00:26:21,590
- He really doesn't.
- No, he does.
478
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:26,780
Because for all we know, that
mug could contain anything.
479
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:29,510
Might be coffee...
480
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:31,700
might be something a bit stronger.
481
00:26:32,120 --> 00:26:35,020
And if it is something stronger,
482
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:39,190
then, uh... all this, as you know,
483
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,110
this entire interview,
484
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,100
all your work, all you've
put him through...
485
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,150
well, that goes for nothing.
486
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:04,860
The mug contains coffee.
487
00:27:05,170 --> 00:27:06,739
I have a flask in my coat
488
00:27:06,740 --> 00:27:09,910
because the machine doesn't
do the coffee I like.
489
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:13,380
Or the coffee anyone likes.
490
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,900
If you really don't believe me, try it.
491
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,470
So we can get back to
the interview now, yes?
492
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:43,589
We don't have any evidence, remember?
493
00:27:43,590 --> 00:27:44,739
- Paul.
- You're telling us
494
00:27:44,740 --> 00:27:47,990
we've got this wrong so why no comment?
495
00:27:49,140 --> 00:27:50,819
You make the trip out.
496
00:27:50,820 --> 00:27:52,509
You do the pick-up.
497
00:27:52,510 --> 00:27:54,309
You make the trip back.
498
00:27:54,310 --> 00:27:57,230
You do the drop. That's it.
499
00:28:02,950 --> 00:28:04,179
Hugo.
500
00:28:04,180 --> 00:28:07,099
Interview suspended at 3:55 p.m.
501
00:28:07,100 --> 00:28:09,060
Get them back in here.
502
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:11,350
Vanessa.
503
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:15,510
If this goes...
504
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,059
when this goes down,
you're going with it.
505
00:28:19,060 --> 00:28:20,990
You leave the room, please?
506
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:24,790
Leave the room.
507
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:30,149
Gentlemen.
508
00:28:30,150 --> 00:28:32,070
Oh, Hugo...
509
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,230
Fucking hell!
510
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,670
And he was the only solicitor available?
511
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:56,499
Sit down.
512
00:28:56,500 --> 00:28:58,389
- H...
- No, leave him.
513
00:28:58,390 --> 00:29:01,629
- He needs to go. He knows he does.
- This is Hugo's gig.
514
00:29:01,630 --> 00:29:04,179
- And he's wrecked it.
- No, you wrecked it.
515
00:29:04,180 --> 00:29:07,229
- You didn't need to taste his coffee.
- It's not coffee.
516
00:29:07,230 --> 00:29:09,390
That's what I'm saying, Paul.
You didn't need to do it.
517
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:11,579
So this is my fault?
518
00:29:11,580 --> 00:29:13,819
He could have carried on. Couldn't he?
519
00:29:13,820 --> 00:29:15,629
- She was onto it as well.
- Who?
520
00:29:15,630 --> 00:29:17,579
That other one. Uh, Addo.
521
00:29:17,580 --> 00:29:19,499
- She wouldn't have tasted it, mate.
- Enough!
522
00:29:19,500 --> 00:29:21,159
I think the main question for us
523
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,830
is whether Hugo's
drinking really matters.
524
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:26,439
- What?
- You're gonna fire him,
525
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:28,399
whether it's today or tomorrow,
526
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:30,989
or on New Year's fucking Eve.
527
00:29:30,990 --> 00:29:32,679
You're gonna do it,
so I'm just wondering
528
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,380
whether we don't just send him back in.
529
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:37,059
- Who?
- Who?
530
00:29:37,060 --> 00:29:38,989
Hugo.
531
00:29:38,990 --> 00:29:41,199
That can't be allowed, can it?
532
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:42,979
This is classic! I've heard it all, now.
533
00:29:42,980 --> 00:29:45,350
Does it really matter if it's allowed?
534
00:29:46,340 --> 00:29:48,839
It matters in terms of the future
535
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:50,540
of this team, yes.
536
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:52,449
See, all I keep coming back to
537
00:29:52,450 --> 00:29:54,139
are the people in the
back of that lorry.
538
00:29:54,140 --> 00:29:57,389
If they're in the back of
there, like we think they are,
539
00:29:57,390 --> 00:29:59,919
then who cares what's allowed?
540
00:29:59,920 --> 00:30:03,190
All that matters...
is that we find them.
541
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,220
Now, come on. Kyle, you saw it. Yeah?
542
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:11,630
He knew the temperature was the
same here as it was in France.
543
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:13,989
Only a degree out.
544
00:30:13,990 --> 00:30:15,629
He knows this.
545
00:30:15,630 --> 00:30:17,220
You know this.
546
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:20,740
Look, for once...
547
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:23,539
in here, in these rooms,
548
00:30:23,540 --> 00:30:26,990
we have to ask ourselves
a difficult question.
549
00:30:27,650 --> 00:30:29,039
Is there anybody better placed
550
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,590
to save the lives of
those people than Hugo?
551
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,660
And does it really matter what
happens to us if he does?
552
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,689
That is alcohol in there.
553
00:31:20,030 --> 00:31:22,150
That's Kostin Vodka, that's called.
554
00:31:22,660 --> 00:31:26,030
And you can buy it, or I do
anyway, in the King's Mall.
555
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,199
Then you can take it to the gents
and decant it into a coffee flask,
556
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:33,990
and you can drink it...
557
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,470
at your own discretion, in public...
558
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:39,630
or...
559
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:42,660
at work.
560
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,670
All while hoping your
colleagues don't notice.
561
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:53,460
But always, the whole time...
562
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,110
without ever being completely sure...
563
00:31:58,080 --> 00:31:59,700
they haven't cottoned on.
564
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:04,159
Now, they sent me back in here
565
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,909
because I know more
about this than anyone.
566
00:32:07,910 --> 00:32:10,110
And in a way, I do.
567
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,270
I was up half of last
night, reading everything.
568
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,500
Everything anyone has on you.
569
00:32:23,980 --> 00:32:26,390
Warned for shoplifting at 15.
570
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,940
Nine points on your license.
571
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:33,350
The wedding to Samira.
572
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,219
But actually, the only
thing worth knowing
573
00:32:36,220 --> 00:32:38,430
is the location of the truck.
574
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,180
And nobody knows except you.
575
00:32:42,220 --> 00:32:45,670
I just can't... I cannot
think of another way.
576
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,870
I can't think of a way to keep
asking you the same question.
577
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:55,430
So I nearly didn't come back
in here, to tell the truth.
578
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,949
But then I thought,
I owed it to you, Jay.
579
00:32:58,950 --> 00:33:00,429
I owed you an explanation
580
00:33:00,430 --> 00:33:03,709
and I owed everyone through there
listening to this, my team,
581
00:33:03,710 --> 00:33:05,239
I owed everyone an explanation
582
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,430
of just how I landed
myself in this mess,
583
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:10,630
in the first place.
584
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,949
And if nothing else... If nothing
else comes around, then at least...
585
00:33:14,950 --> 00:33:17,550
at least that might be
something you can relate to.
586
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:29,980
So...
587
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:33,899
the coffee machine,
you've seen it yourself.
588
00:33:33,900 --> 00:33:37,870
It's at the end of the corridor,
round a slight corner.
589
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:40,999
You press a button
590
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:46,389
and then you slip your flask
of vodka under the nozzle,
591
00:33:46,390 --> 00:33:48,620
and give it a mix, and off you go.
592
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:53,779
And if you're feeling cocky
in the room through there,
593
00:33:53,780 --> 00:33:59,260
through that... mirror, you can do
your top-up without anyone seeing.
594
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:03,390
They're all too focused on what's
happening in here to notice.
595
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:07,590
Then suddenly it's a habit.
596
00:34:09,350 --> 00:34:12,499
But when you find yourself
buying your own mug
597
00:34:12,500 --> 00:34:13,669
with your own initial on it,
598
00:34:13,670 --> 00:34:16,429
to stop anyone tasting vodka
on the rim of the other ones,
599
00:34:16,430 --> 00:34:17,953
that's when you should really know
600
00:34:17,954 --> 00:34:19,869
that you've got a problem,
but you never do.
601
00:34:19,870 --> 00:34:21,060
At least I never.
602
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,230
No, you only know when
you've got a problem...
603
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,510
You only know when you've let people...
604
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:37,519
good people, down.
605
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:39,870
You only know that when you get caught.
606
00:34:46,300 --> 00:34:48,870
My boss, Natalie, who I like...
607
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:51,580
who I rate,
608
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:53,900
she knew I'd been drinking.
609
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,660
She asked me about it a long time ago.
610
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:01,789
She even tried to help me.
611
00:35:01,790 --> 00:35:03,350
She said, "We'll, erm...
612
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,189
We'll get someone extra,
613
00:35:07,190 --> 00:35:09,190
someone to come into the team.
614
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,510
I'll think up a reason,
so we've got cover.
615
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,790
We'll say they're here
to do their training."
616
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:23,430
She knew I had an issue.
617
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:29,350
I couldn't tell her the truth, not
the complete truth, because...
618
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,110
I love my job, and...
619
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,540
because I was trapped.
620
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:40,790
Like me, you mean?
621
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:43,590
Like a lot of people.
622
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:48,870
And I had a moment of weakness.
623
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:54,940
And I'm still having it.
624
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:04,350
That doesn't mean I'm a bad person.
625
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,190
I don't think any of my team
would ever say that I'm a...
626
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:11,830
a bad person.
627
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,270
And I don't think they'd say
that about you, either.
628
00:36:20,180 --> 00:36:22,110
That's why I'm in here, Jay.
629
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:27,820
In my coat.
630
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:33,820
That's what I'm saying.
631
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:44,430
I didn't know.
632
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:48,030
Genuinely.
633
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:54,139
I needed the money, mate.
I'm not going to lie. But...
634
00:36:54,140 --> 00:36:57,029
But then they called me,
didn't they? After I left Dover.
635
00:36:57,030 --> 00:36:58,060
Who?
636
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,230
They got some guy in Customs.
637
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,539
A bloke on the inside tipped
them off and they texted me.
638
00:37:05,540 --> 00:37:07,099
They said, "Your lorry's been flagged.
639
00:37:07,100 --> 00:37:09,940
They're coming to pull you over."
640
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:12,780
So you did abandon?
641
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:15,550
I had to.
642
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:18,500
I... I had to!
643
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:25,390
One last time, Jay.
644
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,149
For my sake, personally,
645
00:37:29,150 --> 00:37:32,980
and even more so for yours
'cos it's only gonna help...
646
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,380
Where did you leave that truck?
647
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,079
- Just to remind you...
- There's a road.
648
00:37:58,080 --> 00:37:59,100
Called Church Lane.
649
00:37:59,960 --> 00:38:02,019
It's a B-road. I think.
650
00:38:02,020 --> 00:38:05,749
There's two gates about 100
meters up. A lay-by thing.
651
00:38:05,750 --> 00:38:08,389
I left it there, under some trees.
652
00:38:08,390 --> 00:38:09,470
Vanessa.
653
00:38:10,700 --> 00:38:12,860
Ma'am, we have the location.
654
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:15,990
You sure?
655
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,419
They found it. The trailer.
656
00:38:48,420 --> 00:38:50,380
We've got it.
657
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:52,019
It's empty.
658
00:38:52,020 --> 00:38:55,030
Cleaned out. No sign of human occupancy.
659
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:58,180
So that's it.
660
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,329
We charge him. Customs will
help with the wording.
661
00:39:01,330 --> 00:39:05,000
"Assistance in the smuggling of
illegal substances" or similar.
662
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:08,589
I want to apologise.
663
00:39:08,590 --> 00:39:11,359
If things got tense between you and I,
664
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:13,710
I, uh... I want to draw
a line under that.
665
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:17,860
- You'll call your man out?
- Yes.
666
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,910
I'll call him out and you can
press your charges then, but...
667
00:39:22,470 --> 00:39:23,500
give it a minute.
668
00:39:34,340 --> 00:39:36,870
I, erm...
669
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:39,900
I want to delete the
bit about me knowing.
670
00:39:40,240 --> 00:39:41,659
How do you mean, delete?
671
00:39:41,660 --> 00:39:42,839
I don't want people thinking
672
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,549
that I knew about Hugo's drinking.
673
00:39:45,550 --> 00:39:46,740
They won't.
674
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,110
Didn't you see? Hugo never
started the recording.
675
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:06,829
- I'll go.
- No, I should go.
676
00:40:06,830 --> 00:40:08,020
No. No, let Paul.
677
00:40:08,060 --> 00:40:09,750
All right.
678
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:15,630
Where you going, guv?
679
00:40:16,620 --> 00:40:18,670
To tamper with the evidence.
680
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:29,030
- All right?
- Hmm.
681
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:31,710
I like what you said earlier.
682
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,750
You're going to have to
narrow it down a bit.
683
00:40:35,240 --> 00:40:38,879
About us lot, asking ourselves
the difficult questions.
684
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:40,990
Oh, right, that. Yeah.
685
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:43,830
We may never get to do this again.
686
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:46,150
All of us.
687
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:48,900
So it has to be now.
688
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:51,739
Ask her for that drink.
689
00:40:51,740 --> 00:40:54,390
Uh, she...
690
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,350
- But she might not...
- But, no buts.
691
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,669
Oh, hey.
692
00:41:16,670 --> 00:41:19,780
There's some bins out the back. Uh...
693
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,189
- Would you mind...
- No, I don't mind.
694
00:41:23,190 --> 00:41:24,239
Thank you.
695
00:41:24,240 --> 00:41:26,190
Actually, guv, erm...
696
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:28,550
Natalie...
697
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:31,220
Can I ask you a question?
698
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:34,030
I was just...
699
00:41:50,660 --> 00:41:55,260
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