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Downloaded from
YTS.MX

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SISTER ALICE: Mr. Mason,
it's hard to believe

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Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.MX

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that you're the right person
for the job.

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PERRY MASON: I'm the only person
for this job.

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♪ ("SOLID GROUND"
BY MICHAEL KIWANUKA PLAYS) ♪

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It's a complicated case.

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This one's really got its hooks
in me.

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♪ (MUSIC INTENSIFIES,
CONCLUDES) ♪

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This is my grandfather,
Julius Rosenberg.

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And this is

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Julius and Ethel
Rosenberg together.

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My father and my uncle were...

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around ten and six...

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um, when they were electrocuted.

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They were accused of stealing
the atom bomb secret.

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I wanna ask my dad

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how people started
thinking about

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why Ethel and Julius
stole the atom bomb secret.

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Why he accused them.

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What happened was that

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the government of
the United States wanted to...

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make your grandma
and grandpa...

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make up some lies
about a lot of people,

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so that these people,

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who the government
of the United States
didn't like,

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would all get put in jail.

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But they refused to tell those
lies because if they did,

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then other people
would be killed.

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What I wanna do is I wanna say

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to the people who
killed my parents,

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25 years ago,
you killed two people,

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but you did not
crush our struggle.

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We are still here,
and we are still struggling,

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and we are united
in the statement

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that it will never happen again.

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♪ ♪

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Barry Farber:
Roy Cohn, when he was
virtually just a teenager,

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sent Julius
and Ethel Rosenberg
to the electric chair.

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You've had 30 years,

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30 years since
the Rosenbergs were executed.

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Have you spent
one of those nights

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sleepless for sending
this couple to the chair?

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Of course not, Barry.
This couple
was convicted by a jury,

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and if ever the death
penalty were appropriate,

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it was in that case.

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♪ ♪

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Is there
a police officer?

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(indistinct dialogue)

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Roy Cohn:
What can I say?

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That I haven't been discreet?

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I never claimed
to be discreet.

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(indistinct chatter)

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Hey, Ernie. Come on.

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I claim to be upfront
and totally candid.

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And I claim not
to be a hypocrite.

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We believe that the free world
is gonna win the Cold War,

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and win this fight by
one thing: the truth.

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I'm a guy who's taken
tough positions,

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starting with
the Rosenberg case,

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starting with
the McCarthy period.

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I don't see the difference

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between Nazism and Hitler
on the one hand,

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and Communism
on the other hand.

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What I do,
I do on the basis
of moral judgments

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as I make them,
as only I must make them,

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according to
my own conscience.

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I reserve that right,
the right to make judgments

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about myself
and other people,

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and have
other people make
them about me.

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Someone wants
to be my detractor,

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that is that
person's privilege.

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I just don't care.

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Pat Buchanan:
"I'll show them what
the national interest is.

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I'll hold up
the army to ridicule."

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I said that?

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-According to a book I read.
-Well, read another book.

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(indistinct dialogue)

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Cohn:
I found out
one thing in life.

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Don't ever threaten unless
you intend to follow through.

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♪ ♪

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Cohn:
Everything I do
has to be true.

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I will not say anything that
I cannot repeat under oath.

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♪ ♪

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Peter Manso:
In 1980, I went to
"Playboy Magazine,"

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and I said I'd like
to do an interview

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of Roy Cohn
for the magazine.

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Manso (on tape):
Testing, testing.

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Roy Cohn, Peter Manso.

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Actually,
why don't we do this?
Why don't we just break here?

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Cohn (on tape):
Okay. Have we
covered a lot of...

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Manso (on tape):
We're getting there,
we're getting there.

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Manso:
I simply called Roy
at his law firm,

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Saxe, Bacon, & Bolan
in New York,

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uh, left a message,
and five minutes later,

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the phone rang, and it was Roy
at the other end of the phone.

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"Sounds interesting.
When do you wanna

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get together to talk about it?"

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♪ ♪

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We started taping at his
place in North Greenwich,

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an hour or so
north of New York.

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Cohn:
Okay, go ahead.

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Manso:
Uh, so, presumably,
your clients,

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the wealthy,
social register types,
da da da,

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have come to you
over the years because
you gained a reputation

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for getting things done.
For winning.

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Does all this go back
to what you learned
from McCarthy?

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The so-called
"Achilles heel" technique?

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Cohn:
Uh, I wouldn't say

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it's what I learned
from McCarthy.

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I think it's what
I started learning during
the Rosenberg trial,

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what I learned at
the US district
attorney's office,

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when I made up my mind
that law is an adversary
profession.

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One side wins,
one side loses.

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And I don't--
I don't like to lose.

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-I hate to lose.
-Manso: Mm-hmm.

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Cohn:
So, I just made up my mind
I was gonna do

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everything I could in the way
of careful preparation...

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-Manso: Mm-hmm.
-Cohn: ...in the way
of tough fighting

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to be a winner.

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Manso:
It became clear
to me right away

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that my stereotyping
of Roy was inadequate.

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To call him evil, it's true,

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but it doesn't explain 100
other things about Roy Cohn.

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He was bright,
he was contentious,

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but I think what appealed
to me most about Roy is

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that he was a lawless madman.

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Cohn:
I would say I'm probably
more of a maverick.

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I do have a crazy
list of clients.

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The usual reaction isn't
"Ah, Roy Cohn
represents the mob."

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It's "Roy Cohn
and Studio 54.

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"Roy Cohn
and anti-Communism.

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"Roy Cohn
and the archdiocese.

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"Roy Cohn, the friend of...

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"the lawyer for
Donald Trump.

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"Roy Cohn, good friend
of George Steinbrenner

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"who owns
the New York Yankees.

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"Roy Cohn,
the friend of congressmen,

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senators, judges."

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♪ ♪

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(explosion)

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Narrator: Someone had
passed America's atomic
bomb secrets to Russia.

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This was an undisputed fact
that the whole world knew.

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The federal government
had laid the crime
at the doorstep

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of two native New Yorkers,
Julius and Ethel Rosenberg.

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♪ ♪

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Michael Meeropol:
My parents grew up during
the Great Depression.

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The Communists were
the ones who were fighting

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for the rights of
tenants and workers,

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and so, they were
naturally drawn to it.

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In World War II,
given the wartime alliance

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with the Soviet Union,

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Communism was allied
with Americanism.

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It became a natural thing

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to politically support

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the survival of
the Soviet Union.

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My father made
a big deal at the trial

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that he liked
the Soviet Union

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because it had torn the guts
out of the Hitler beast

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that killed six million
of my fellow Jews.

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♪ ♪

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When my children
were young,

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they learned
that Judge Kaufman

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sentenced their
grandparents to death.

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David Greenglass,
my mother's brother,

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who was a machinist
at Los Alamos,

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claimed that Julius
and Ethel Rosenberg

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recruited him to be a spy
for the Soviet Union.

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And that's where Roy Cohn
enters the scene.

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He coached David Greenglass
to develop his testimony,

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examined David Greenglass
at the trial.

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The two of them together
were the reason

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my parents were convicted,

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and the reason
they were executed.

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(birds chirping)

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Ivy Meeropol:
Think back when
you were a kid.

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-Did you-- Were you
aware of Roy Cohn?
-No.

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In 1955, I read

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"The Judgment of Julius
and Ethel Rosenberg"
by John Wexley.

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And there was
the reference to Roy Cohn,

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and I'd already heard about
him because of McCarthy.

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-And how old were you?
-1955, I was 12.

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-Wow. That's quite a book
to read when you're 12.
-Yeah,

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well, 'cause
I didn't understand it much,
but it certainly--

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the name Roy Cohn
stuck in my mind

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'cause I had seen
the stuff on TV
about McCarthy.

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And I knew that McCarthy
was a "bad man,"

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not that I knew
any of the details.

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♪ ♪

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Cohn:
I had graduated from
college and law school,

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and gotten both degrees in
three years and four months.

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I went to
the US attorney's office.

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I was a kid.
I was not yet 20.

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I had prosecuted
internal security cases,
counterfeiting,

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narcotics, and I had
a minor name because of that.

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I examined David Greenglass.

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I was then...

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a big, fat 23 years old

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and I sort of put
the case together.

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I think that
the death sentence

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imposed by
Judge Irving R. Kaufman

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in the Atom Spy Trial had
a very strong deterrent effect.

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00:10:03,750 --> 00:10:05,875
I think it's been
a very good year

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00:10:05,959 --> 00:10:08,667
on the anti-Communist
front in this country.

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00:10:09,875 --> 00:10:11,583
Alan Dershowitz:
He was known as the guy

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00:10:11,667 --> 00:10:14,542
who got the conviction
and execution
of the Rosenbergs.

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And I think he saw this as
a stepping stone to glory,

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and it worked.

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♪ ♪

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Cohn:
I became Chief Counsel

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for the Senate
Investigating Committee

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00:10:29,542 --> 00:10:32,208
when Senator McCarthy
became chairman.

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Government agencies had
covered up security risks

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and had left people
in sensitive positions.

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00:10:42,375 --> 00:10:45,333
Our job was
to show cover-ups.

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00:10:45,417 --> 00:10:47,291
David Lloyd Marcus:
He had to always be
the tough guy in the room.

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00:10:47,375 --> 00:10:50,000
He had to be the one
who was the most macho.

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Now, how to do it in the '50s?
Well, you went after Communists.

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00:10:53,834 --> 00:10:55,208
I don't think you
understood the question.

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00:10:55,291 --> 00:10:56,792
The question was,
do you know this man?

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00:10:56,875 --> 00:10:59,000
Can you look at the picture and
tell us whether you know him?

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I would assume
the answer is yes or no.

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00:11:00,458 --> 00:11:01,792
Senator Joseph McCarthy:
Can you answer

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00:11:01,875 --> 00:11:03,625
the simple question of
whether he's a Communist?

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-(indistinct)
-Abraham Unger:
Your statements--

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Your statements about him

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-have made it difficult for me--
-(banging)

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00:11:09,750 --> 00:11:12,333
-I want it put on the record--
-McCarthy: Officer,
will you remove the man?

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00:11:12,417 --> 00:11:14,625
-Will you remove him?
-I want--

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David Lloyd Marcus:
McCarthy didn't know anything
about Communists, really,

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but Roy found

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00:11:22,250 --> 00:11:23,834
by being on his shoulder,

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00:11:23,917 --> 00:11:25,333
by pushing, pushing,
pushing him,

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he was a mover and shaker.

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He didn't wanna be
in McCarthy's seat
being the Senator,

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but he wanted to be the guy
behind the power brokers.

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Cohn:
The last way to be
politically ambitious

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00:11:36,041 --> 00:11:39,041
as a Jewish
New York Democrat,
which I was and am,

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00:11:39,125 --> 00:11:41,375
is by becoming counsel
for Senator McCarthy,

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so I was hardly down
there for any...

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political ambition.

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00:11:46,250 --> 00:11:48,709
I was down there to do
more in this type of work,

243
00:11:48,792 --> 00:11:52,750
in which I believed then,
and which I believe now.

244
00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:56,625
Taki Theodoracopulos:
Roy was a hero to many...

245
00:11:56,709 --> 00:11:57,792
(applause)

246
00:11:57,875 --> 00:12:00,041
who had seen Communism up close,

247
00:12:00,125 --> 00:12:03,000
as was the case of myself.

248
00:12:03,083 --> 00:12:04,709
For me,
Communism was far worse

249
00:12:04,792 --> 00:12:06,583
than any--
anything I'd ever seen.

250
00:12:07,083 --> 00:12:09,291
I could imagine the worst thing
you could be was a Communist

251
00:12:09,375 --> 00:12:10,709
because you were a danger to--

252
00:12:10,792 --> 00:12:12,750
To our way of life,
to our way of thinking,

253
00:12:12,834 --> 00:12:16,583
and Roy was brought up
in that climate.

254
00:12:17,625 --> 00:12:19,625
Tony Kushner:
I imagine this guy

255
00:12:19,709 --> 00:12:22,041
coming of age
during World War II,

256
00:12:22,125 --> 00:12:23,917
and the terror

257
00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,166
of what would we happen
when we ceased to be

258
00:12:26,250 --> 00:12:29,208
the only country in the world
that had nuclear weapons.

259
00:12:29,291 --> 00:12:32,542
The Communist Party
is not a political party.

260
00:12:32,625 --> 00:12:34,959
It's a criminal conspiracy.

261
00:12:35,041 --> 00:12:38,375
Its object is the overthrow
of the government
of the United States

262
00:12:38,458 --> 00:12:40,250
by force and violence

263
00:12:40,333 --> 00:12:41,917
as soon as
the right time arrives.

264
00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:43,583
Yes, they're
traitors to America.

265
00:12:43,667 --> 00:12:45,875
Woman:
Why don't we do
something about it?

266
00:12:45,959 --> 00:12:48,917
They are enemies!
They are not Americans!

267
00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,208
(indistinct shouting)

268
00:12:51,291 --> 00:12:54,166
They are homosexuals!
They're Communists!

269
00:12:54,250 --> 00:12:56,041
-(yelling)
-They're Communists!

270
00:12:56,125 --> 00:13:00,291
Kushner:
The two groups that
were initially tagged

271
00:13:00,375 --> 00:13:02,208
with the red taint

272
00:13:02,291 --> 00:13:04,709
more than any other groups
in this country

273
00:13:04,792 --> 00:13:08,500
were homosexuals and Jews.

274
00:13:08,583 --> 00:13:11,625
-(gavel banging)
-McCarthy:
There's another group...

275
00:13:11,709 --> 00:13:14,458
about which I hesitate to...

276
00:13:14,542 --> 00:13:18,750
talk, but I think the picture
isn't complete unless we do.

277
00:13:18,834 --> 00:13:21,250
Some of them have that
unusual affliction

278
00:13:21,333 --> 00:13:23,583
because of no fault
of their own.

279
00:13:23,667 --> 00:13:26,542
Most, of course,
because they're morally weak.

280
00:13:26,625 --> 00:13:28,959
♪ ♪

281
00:13:29,041 --> 00:13:32,458
The pervert is easy
prey to the blackmailer.

282
00:13:32,542 --> 00:13:36,458
It follows that if
blackmailers can exhort money
from these individuals,

283
00:13:36,542 --> 00:13:40,417
espionage agents can use
the same type of pressure.

284
00:13:41,417 --> 00:13:44,083
They're dangerous
to this country.

285
00:13:49,083 --> 00:13:52,792
We know that Communists
writing about the United States

286
00:13:52,875 --> 00:13:54,917
are not giving the true picture.

287
00:13:56,250 --> 00:13:58,083
And that is why
we don't believe

288
00:13:58,166 --> 00:14:01,959
that Amerika Haus,
which is supposed to give
a true picture

289
00:14:02,041 --> 00:14:03,333
of life in the United States,

290
00:14:03,417 --> 00:14:06,083
should contain books
written by Communists,

291
00:14:06,166 --> 00:14:08,500
who are dedicated to
wiping the United States

292
00:14:08,583 --> 00:14:10,083
off the face of the Earth

293
00:14:10,166 --> 00:14:12,875
and substituting the freedom
we have in America

294
00:14:12,959 --> 00:14:15,500
for the spiritual
and mental enslavement

295
00:14:15,583 --> 00:14:18,166
you have in the Soviet Union.

296
00:14:18,250 --> 00:14:20,250
Announcer:
The McCarthy Committee
was now charging that

297
00:14:20,333 --> 00:14:22,083
State Department
libraries overseas

298
00:14:22,166 --> 00:14:24,542
contained subversive volumes.

299
00:14:24,625 --> 00:14:26,500
Cohn and his friend,
G. David Schine,

300
00:14:26,583 --> 00:14:27,834
the young Harvard graduate

301
00:14:27,917 --> 00:14:29,583
and heir to
the Schine Hotel fortune,

302
00:14:29,667 --> 00:14:33,417
were dispatched on a tour
of our libraries overseas.

303
00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,625
♪ ♪

304
00:14:38,041 --> 00:14:41,333
We suddenly became the enemy

305
00:14:41,417 --> 00:14:45,041
of McCarthy and his cohorts.

306
00:14:45,125 --> 00:14:48,667
They said, "Do you have
"The Maltese Falcon"?"

307
00:14:48,750 --> 00:14:51,834
I said "Yes, they're right
over here in the library."

308
00:14:51,917 --> 00:14:53,542
And Cohn turned and says,

309
00:14:53,625 --> 00:14:56,208
"You see? Nothing
but Communist books

310
00:14:56,291 --> 00:14:57,959
here in the library."

311
00:14:59,083 --> 00:15:01,834
They didn't really
succeed very much

312
00:15:01,917 --> 00:15:04,375
on this particular junket.

313
00:15:04,458 --> 00:15:06,709
But they became notorious.

314
00:15:06,792 --> 00:15:10,625
(upbeat rock music playing)

315
00:15:14,041 --> 00:15:15,542
Lois Romano:
They were two kids

316
00:15:15,625 --> 00:15:18,542
that were encouraged
by McCarthy and others

317
00:15:18,625 --> 00:15:20,959
to go make this global trip.

318
00:15:22,291 --> 00:15:24,125
And people who encouraged
them were adults

319
00:15:24,208 --> 00:15:27,458
who didn't realize how
bad it was gonna look.

320
00:15:27,542 --> 00:15:29,917
Kushner:
There were stories
that I had heard

321
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:32,125
of them sort of chasing
each other through

322
00:15:32,208 --> 00:15:35,000
the Ritz in Paris
in their towels.

323
00:15:39,583 --> 00:15:42,792
Theodoracopulos:
After Cohn and Schine
came back from Europe,

324
00:15:42,875 --> 00:15:45,083
Schine got drafted.

325
00:15:45,166 --> 00:15:47,959
He was just a GI,
just a buck private.

326
00:15:49,917 --> 00:15:52,709
Roy used his position
with McCarthy,

327
00:15:52,792 --> 00:15:54,709
and tried to get the army

328
00:15:54,792 --> 00:15:57,667
to give Schine
favorite treatment.

329
00:16:00,417 --> 00:16:02,375
(inaudible)

330
00:16:04,542 --> 00:16:06,083
Senator McCarthy said,

331
00:16:06,166 --> 00:16:09,291
"Roy thinks that Dave

332
00:16:09,375 --> 00:16:11,625
"ought to be a General

333
00:16:11,709 --> 00:16:14,166
"and operate from a penthouse

334
00:16:14,250 --> 00:16:17,083
on the Waldorf Astoria,"
or words to that effect.

335
00:16:17,166 --> 00:16:18,500
(chuckling)

336
00:16:18,583 --> 00:16:21,250
I asked him what would happen
if Schine got overseas duty.

337
00:16:21,333 --> 00:16:24,125
He responded
with vigor and force,

338
00:16:24,208 --> 00:16:26,041
"We'll wreck the army."

339
00:16:26,125 --> 00:16:28,583
I never knew what hung
on Schine's walls--

340
00:16:28,667 --> 00:16:30,625
Joseph Welch:
You did know what
hung on Schine's wall

341
00:16:30,709 --> 00:16:32,291
when that was
handed to you, sir.

342
00:16:32,375 --> 00:16:34,834
Did you think this
came from a pixie?

343
00:16:35,500 --> 00:16:37,667
(laughter)

344
00:16:37,750 --> 00:16:40,250
Counsel, to my
benefit, define--

345
00:16:40,333 --> 00:16:42,375
-I think he might be
an expert on that...
-Welch: Yeah.

346
00:16:42,458 --> 00:16:44,917
-...on what a pixie is.
-Welch: Yes, I should say...

347
00:16:45,166 --> 00:16:48,083
I should say,
Mr. Senator, that a pixie

348
00:16:48,166 --> 00:16:50,667
is a close relative of a fairy.

349
00:16:50,750 --> 00:16:54,291
(loud laughter)

350
00:16:54,375 --> 00:16:55,709
Trying to find out why...

351
00:16:55,792 --> 00:16:57,875
Kushner:
Roy Cohn risked
being exposed

352
00:16:57,959 --> 00:17:00,417
on national television
as a pixie,

353
00:17:00,500 --> 00:17:02,583
the close relationship
to a fairy.

354
00:17:02,667 --> 00:17:06,333
He went after
the US Armed Forces

355
00:17:06,417 --> 00:17:08,625
because he wanted
his boyfriend back.

356
00:17:08,709 --> 00:17:10,792
And he dragged poor, drunk,

357
00:17:10,875 --> 00:17:13,417
stupid McCarthy along with him,

358
00:17:13,750 --> 00:17:16,917
into this debacle
for the two of them.

359
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:20,417
♪ ♪

360
00:17:31,083 --> 00:17:34,250
Romano:
Everybody thought he
was finished after that.

361
00:17:34,333 --> 00:17:38,000
This little snot-nosed
26-year-old who
was grilling people.

362
00:17:38,083 --> 00:17:39,709
They thought he was just
gonna be some has-been,

363
00:17:39,792 --> 00:17:41,667
and everybody was gonna
dance on his grave.

364
00:17:41,750 --> 00:17:44,166
And, you know,
from the ashes, he rose.

365
00:17:44,250 --> 00:17:47,417
(big band music playing)

366
00:17:52,625 --> 00:17:54,542
Manso:
By the time you
returned to New York,

367
00:17:54,625 --> 00:17:56,500
after leaving
McCarthy in '54,

368
00:17:56,583 --> 00:17:58,834
there was quite a lucrative
law practice waiting.

369
00:17:58,917 --> 00:18:01,208
Cohn:
Oh, I suppose through

370
00:18:01,291 --> 00:18:04,333
my derivative friendship
with my father's friends,

371
00:18:04,417 --> 00:18:05,709
who had known him
in the course of

372
00:18:05,792 --> 00:18:08,333
his quarter of
a century on the bench.

373
00:18:08,417 --> 00:18:09,709
That brought me together

374
00:18:09,792 --> 00:18:12,709
with the top Democratic
leadership in New York.

375
00:18:14,041 --> 00:18:17,208
And from there on,
I steadily worked my way up.

376
00:18:17,291 --> 00:18:20,250
♪ ♪

377
00:18:20,333 --> 00:18:22,959
(party chatter)

378
00:18:26,792 --> 00:18:28,917
Reporter:
There's always that
one event, that one party

379
00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:32,125
where some people want to be,
and they wanna be seen there.

380
00:18:32,208 --> 00:18:34,000
Bob O'Brien:
The limousines
came to the back door

381
00:18:34,083 --> 00:18:35,542
of Studio 54 tonight.

382
00:18:35,625 --> 00:18:38,208
Roy was celebrating his
birthday at a black tie affair

383
00:18:38,291 --> 00:18:40,166
for over 200
of his close friends,

384
00:18:40,250 --> 00:18:42,458
thrown by close friend
Steve Rubell.

385
00:18:42,542 --> 00:18:44,917
Some of Cohn's friends
included former
Mayor Abe Beame

386
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:46,625
Deputy Mayor
Herman Badillo,

387
00:18:46,709 --> 00:18:48,959
and Brooklyn Democratic
leader Meade Esposito.

388
00:18:49,041 --> 00:18:51,625
I was here for his last
year's birthday party,

389
00:18:51,709 --> 00:18:53,750
and it was really fun,
so I had to come again.

390
00:18:53,834 --> 00:18:56,875
O'Brien:
Why does Joey Adams come to
say happy birthday to Roy Cohn?

391
00:18:56,959 --> 00:18:58,083
I wanna tell you something.

392
00:18:58,166 --> 00:18:59,458
Roy has been
my buddy for a long time,

393
00:18:59,542 --> 00:19:01,875
and I don't need him.
I'm not getting a divorce.

394
00:19:01,959 --> 00:19:04,625
I'm not a member of the mafia.
I don't sniff coke.

395
00:19:04,709 --> 00:19:07,000
I don't need him,
and yet he's my friend.

396
00:19:07,333 --> 00:19:08,959
They know I'll be there,

397
00:19:09,041 --> 00:19:11,458
and I always know that
they'll be there, so it's...

398
00:19:11,542 --> 00:19:13,500
The people here tonight
really aren't a question of

399
00:19:13,583 --> 00:19:15,291
who did what for whom.

400
00:19:15,375 --> 00:19:16,792
It's just a question of

401
00:19:16,875 --> 00:19:19,875
who's meant what to whom
over a long period of time.

402
00:19:20,709 --> 00:19:22,500
David Lloyd Marcus:
That's him at his
Greenwich house.

403
00:19:22,583 --> 00:19:25,792
-Oh...
-Being his usual notorious,
pernicious self.

404
00:19:25,875 --> 00:19:29,083
-Alice Marcus: Yes, indeed.
David Lloyd Marcus:
I think a lot of people have

405
00:19:29,166 --> 00:19:30,709
family members they
don't wanna talk about.

406
00:19:30,792 --> 00:19:33,875
Family members who were--
have some evil, but he was...

407
00:19:33,959 --> 00:19:36,041
he was a personification
of evil.

408
00:19:36,125 --> 00:19:37,834
-Absolutely.
-Yep.

409
00:19:37,917 --> 00:19:40,709
-Every family has its Roy Cohn.
-Alice: Oh, I hope not.

410
00:19:40,792 --> 00:19:45,000
The world would be a terrible
place if that happened.

411
00:19:45,083 --> 00:19:47,375
David Lloyd Marcus:
I grew up in a family
where our family activity

412
00:19:47,458 --> 00:19:49,625
was to march against
the Vietnam War, so

413
00:19:49,709 --> 00:19:52,333
I was very conscious
of the fact that
my parents, you know,

414
00:19:52,417 --> 00:19:55,166
were very upset about
the Rosenbergs, about McCarthy,

415
00:19:55,250 --> 00:19:57,000
about all these
things that Roy was--

416
00:19:57,083 --> 00:19:59,917
was intricately involved in.

417
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:01,542
But I was
a budding journalist,

418
00:20:01,625 --> 00:20:03,125
and I paid attention to him.

419
00:20:03,208 --> 00:20:05,417
♪ ♪

420
00:20:08,083 --> 00:20:09,542
Roy was the outer borough kid,

421
00:20:09,625 --> 00:20:12,959
an only child who
grew up in the Bronx.

422
00:20:13,041 --> 00:20:15,166
Roy's mother was Dora Marcus,

423
00:20:15,250 --> 00:20:18,166
who married Al Cohn,
who became a judge.

424
00:20:18,250 --> 00:20:21,208
His dad was a very powerful
Democrat in the Bronx,

425
00:20:21,291 --> 00:20:23,792
who mingled with
Democrats all the time.

426
00:20:23,875 --> 00:20:27,917
And yet, Roy somehow
morphed into a Republican.

427
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,583
Somehow morphed into
arch-conservative.

428
00:20:31,625 --> 00:20:33,250
I think Roy grew up
with this notion

429
00:20:33,333 --> 00:20:35,375
he had to do better
than his father.

430
00:20:35,458 --> 00:20:37,333
He had to be more important,

431
00:20:37,417 --> 00:20:39,500
more impressive,
more in the news.

432
00:20:39,583 --> 00:20:41,208
♪ ♪

433
00:20:41,291 --> 00:20:43,458
And then he lived
with this specter

434
00:20:43,542 --> 00:20:45,041
of his Uncle Bernie,

435
00:20:45,125 --> 00:20:48,083
who was involved in
a savings and loan problem,

436
00:20:48,166 --> 00:20:49,917
going to Sing Sing.

437
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,917
He always talked about
going to see Uncle Bernie
in Sing Sing,

438
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,125
and that was a scarring,
scary memory for him.

439
00:20:57,959 --> 00:21:00,375
Ivy Meeropol:
I mean, I can't help
thinking about he then sent

440
00:21:00,458 --> 00:21:01,792
my grandparents to Sing Sing.

441
00:21:01,875 --> 00:21:04,208
He sent your grandparents--
I'm sitting here,

442
00:21:04,291 --> 00:21:06,417
talking to you
about my cousin,

443
00:21:06,500 --> 00:21:08,000
who sent your
grandparents to Sing Sing,

444
00:21:08,083 --> 00:21:10,417
after watching my grandfather

445
00:21:10,500 --> 00:21:13,000
go to Sing Sing and be ruined.

446
00:21:13,083 --> 00:21:16,709
Roy's lesson was, "That's
never gonna happen to me.

447
00:21:16,792 --> 00:21:18,792
I'm never gonna
be the victim."

448
00:21:18,875 --> 00:21:22,000
♪ ♪

449
00:21:25,250 --> 00:21:27,208
Ivy Meeropol:
Do you remember
when we went to DC

450
00:21:27,291 --> 00:21:30,542
-and went to see
the AIDS quilt?
-Michael Meeropol: Yes.

451
00:21:30,625 --> 00:21:34,000
We walk in from
a particular location,

452
00:21:34,083 --> 00:21:35,625
and right in front of us,

453
00:21:35,709 --> 00:21:38,875
the first quilt
we see is Roy Cohn.

454
00:21:43,375 --> 00:21:45,583
-Ivy Meeropol: It was crazy.
-Michael Meeropol:
It really was.

455
00:21:45,667 --> 00:21:48,083
Thousands of panels and...

456
00:21:48,166 --> 00:21:51,291
probably, you know, I mean,
any number of ways

457
00:21:51,375 --> 00:21:53,125
-we could've come onto the mall.
-Absolutely.

458
00:21:53,208 --> 00:21:54,375
-We couldn't believe it.
-And it--

459
00:21:54,458 --> 00:21:56,583
It did feel like a--
some strange message.

460
00:21:56,667 --> 00:21:59,542
And what's interesting
about that is, of course,

461
00:21:59,625 --> 00:22:01,875
if we had come someways else,
we might not have even

462
00:22:01,959 --> 00:22:04,208
-known he had a panel.
-Right.

463
00:22:04,291 --> 00:22:05,792
♪ ♪

464
00:22:05,875 --> 00:22:09,375
Michael Meeropol:
It was like a holy shit
moment.

465
00:22:09,458 --> 00:22:13,000
It's almost like God
wanted us to find

466
00:22:13,083 --> 00:22:16,375
Roy Cohn's panel to remind us

467
00:22:16,458 --> 00:22:18,041
that we were still
in the middle

468
00:22:18,125 --> 00:22:20,709
of this unbelievable battle.

469
00:22:30,959 --> 00:22:34,583
I see the universe, Joe,

470
00:22:35,417 --> 00:22:38,667
as a kind of sandstorm
in outer space,

471
00:22:38,750 --> 00:22:42,041
with winds of mega
hurricane velocity.

472
00:22:42,875 --> 00:22:45,041
But instead of
grains of sand,

473
00:22:45,125 --> 00:22:48,333
it's shards
and splinters of glass.

474
00:22:48,417 --> 00:22:51,083
Kushner:
I think that
the character of Roy Cohn

475
00:22:51,166 --> 00:22:52,333
jumped out at me

476
00:22:52,417 --> 00:22:55,667
because he was
not only Jewish

477
00:22:55,750 --> 00:22:58,625
but-- like me,
but also gay like me.

478
00:22:58,709 --> 00:23:00,959
-I have...
-Kushner: And he
also seemed to be

479
00:23:01,041 --> 00:23:03,500
one of the worst human
beings that ever lived.

480
00:23:03,583 --> 00:23:06,208
Listen, Ailene, you think
I'm the only goddamn lawyer

481
00:23:06,291 --> 00:23:09,333
in history ever
missed a court date?!

482
00:23:10,041 --> 00:23:12,709
Don't make such
a big fucking-- Hold.

483
00:23:12,792 --> 00:23:14,417
-(beep)
-You hag!

484
00:23:14,500 --> 00:23:17,000
Nathan Lane:
Most people, when they
think of Roy Cohn,

485
00:23:17,083 --> 00:23:19,709
think of the character
in the play.

486
00:23:19,792 --> 00:23:22,667
And it's only now that people

487
00:23:22,750 --> 00:23:25,458
really are more
aware of the real...

488
00:23:25,542 --> 00:23:27,208
person Roy Cohn.

489
00:23:27,291 --> 00:23:30,417
I think Mr. Vidal has lapsed
into an uncharacteristic modesty

490
00:23:30,500 --> 00:23:33,375
and I don't think he should.
He's very articulate...

491
00:23:33,458 --> 00:23:34,500
Lane:
On talk shows,

492
00:23:34,583 --> 00:23:36,417
he's nerdy and creepy,

493
00:23:36,500 --> 00:23:39,166
but very sort of
lawyerly, polite,

494
00:23:39,250 --> 00:23:41,583
everyone is Mister and Missus.

495
00:23:41,667 --> 00:23:45,333
But, in private, I think
he was very different.

496
00:23:46,291 --> 00:23:49,458
(jazzy music playing)

497
00:23:51,625 --> 00:23:53,375
Theodoracopulos:
I first met Roy,

498
00:23:53,458 --> 00:23:56,542
as everybody did in
those days, in El Morocco

499
00:23:56,625 --> 00:23:58,166
in '56.

500
00:23:58,834 --> 00:24:01,208
And he, of course,
was famous by then.

501
00:24:02,250 --> 00:24:04,250
El Morocco was the chicest

502
00:24:04,333 --> 00:24:07,125
and most exclusive
nightclub of the time.

503
00:24:07,208 --> 00:24:11,917
It was the kind of place
where only very
high society went,

504
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,208
plus some loose characters

505
00:24:15,291 --> 00:24:17,625
who were welcome
because it gave

506
00:24:17,709 --> 00:24:20,333
sort of some spice
to the place.

507
00:24:20,417 --> 00:24:23,959
That's where Roy made
all his contacts.

508
00:24:24,041 --> 00:24:27,542
He would come in
with those hooded lids,
looking so ominous.

509
00:24:27,625 --> 00:24:32,458
(laughs) He was like
Dracula coming out of
his box at midnight.

510
00:24:32,542 --> 00:24:34,458
(inaudible)

511
00:24:34,542 --> 00:24:37,625
Cohn: What came out
of the McCarthy period,
even its disasters,

512
00:24:37,709 --> 00:24:41,125
was the feeling
that I was different
from most other lawyers.

513
00:24:41,208 --> 00:24:43,291
People didn't perceive
me as a typical

514
00:24:43,375 --> 00:24:46,125
bill-by-the-hour,
do-nothing shyster,

515
00:24:46,208 --> 00:24:48,458
but as someone
who can be trusted.

516
00:24:48,542 --> 00:24:51,792
When people call Roy Cohn
to solicit his services,

517
00:24:51,875 --> 00:24:53,375
what are they looking for?
What are they buying?

518
00:24:53,458 --> 00:24:56,291
I think a principal thing
they're buying is scare value.

519
00:24:56,375 --> 00:24:58,250
It was not in his briefcase.

520
00:24:58,333 --> 00:25:00,875
They do not allege it
was in his briefcase.

521
00:25:00,959 --> 00:25:03,000
I've read the complaint,
and I was in court,

522
00:25:03,083 --> 00:25:04,250
and you weren't.

523
00:25:04,333 --> 00:25:05,959
Manso:
People hired Roy

524
00:25:06,041 --> 00:25:08,083
because Roy was
without conscience,

525
00:25:08,166 --> 00:25:10,417
and Roy would get
them a victory

526
00:25:10,500 --> 00:25:12,250
because he knew no rules.

527
00:25:12,333 --> 00:25:14,542
He would do whatever
he needed to, to win.

528
00:25:14,625 --> 00:25:17,500
♪ ♪

529
00:25:17,583 --> 00:25:18,875
Manso (on tape):
It has been mentioned

530
00:25:18,959 --> 00:25:21,417
in the media that
you have represented,

531
00:25:21,500 --> 00:25:23,041
or continue to represent,

532
00:25:23,125 --> 00:25:25,583
-the world's richest men.
-Cohn: Okay.

533
00:25:25,667 --> 00:25:28,125
Now, there's a prominent
New York real estate tycoon,

534
00:25:28,208 --> 00:25:29,959
a very, very young man

535
00:25:30,041 --> 00:25:31,458
who's, uh, who's made it.

536
00:25:31,542 --> 00:25:33,417
I mean, he started off
with a few million dollars,

537
00:25:33,500 --> 00:25:35,083
I suppose,
that his father had made.

538
00:25:35,166 --> 00:25:37,041
Maybe 10 million,
20 million...

539
00:25:37,125 --> 00:25:38,750
-Manso: Can we identify him?
-Cohn: Donald-- Donald Trump.

540
00:25:38,834 --> 00:25:40,250
Manso:
I think that's
fairly transparent.

541
00:25:40,333 --> 00:25:41,333
Everyone knows who it is.

542
00:25:41,417 --> 00:25:44,083
Cohn:
Donald-- Donald Trump.

543
00:25:44,166 --> 00:25:45,834
Manso:
Is it fair to say at this
point that he's the most

544
00:25:45,917 --> 00:25:47,625
powerful real estate
guy in New York?

545
00:25:47,709 --> 00:25:49,458
Cohn:
I think it is.

546
00:25:50,583 --> 00:25:52,375
Romano:
His currency was money,

547
00:25:52,458 --> 00:25:54,333
but he was a boy from Queens,

548
00:25:54,417 --> 00:25:56,709
and he was a sheltered
boy from Queens.

549
00:25:56,792 --> 00:25:58,959
He didn't have any
access to the big city.

550
00:25:59,041 --> 00:26:02,083
So, at first, Roy brought
him into New York.

551
00:26:02,166 --> 00:26:03,875
Cohn:
I met him at a supper club,

552
00:26:03,959 --> 00:26:06,166
which I rarely go to.
I'm not too much
of a night man

553
00:26:06,250 --> 00:26:07,875
because I have so much
work to do during the day,

554
00:26:07,959 --> 00:26:10,041
and I guess the same
can be said of Donald.

555
00:26:10,125 --> 00:26:12,041
He hates anything social,

556
00:26:12,125 --> 00:26:15,959
and he really doesn't like
anything political
very much either.

557
00:26:16,041 --> 00:26:17,750
One night, at Le Club,

558
00:26:17,834 --> 00:26:19,875
we were seated at tables
next to each other.

559
00:26:19,959 --> 00:26:21,792
He said,
"I've spent two days

560
00:26:21,875 --> 00:26:23,709
"with these
establishment law firms

561
00:26:23,792 --> 00:26:26,750
about a case we have."
It was a civil rights case.

562
00:26:26,834 --> 00:26:28,750
He says,
"I followed your career,
and you seem--

563
00:26:28,834 --> 00:26:31,583
"You're a little bit
crazy like I am, and

564
00:26:31,667 --> 00:26:35,208
you stand up to
the establishment.
Can I come see you?"

565
00:26:35,291 --> 00:26:37,917
Donald Trump: This was
a lawsuit against numerous
landlords in New York,

566
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,583
and I didn't like it
because it wasn't true.

567
00:26:40,667 --> 00:26:43,000
We've never discriminated.
We don't believe in it.

568
00:26:43,083 --> 00:26:45,125
And I just thought,
on a principal ground,

569
00:26:45,208 --> 00:26:48,917
I should-- I should fight,
and other landlords didn't.

570
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,625
Manso:
Trump was delighted by
Roy's attorney's response

571
00:26:52,709 --> 00:26:54,667
to this suit against
the two Trumps,

572
00:26:54,750 --> 00:26:58,125
and that was to counter-sue
the US Justice Department.

573
00:26:58,208 --> 00:27:00,041
Roy called them Nazis!

574
00:27:00,125 --> 00:27:02,667
Roy called them
the Ku Klux Klan!

575
00:27:02,750 --> 00:27:05,500
You know, but the whole
point was to resist,

576
00:27:05,583 --> 00:27:07,041
to throw it back at them.

577
00:27:07,250 --> 00:27:10,750
Trump fell in love with that.
Never admit that you're wrong.

578
00:27:10,834 --> 00:27:12,458
And the suit was settled.

579
00:27:12,542 --> 00:27:14,667
You serve a complaint,
start an action,

580
00:27:14,750 --> 00:27:16,291
and then
there's a settlement...

581
00:27:16,375 --> 00:27:18,291
Manso:
Roy settled

582
00:27:18,375 --> 00:27:22,917
65-75% of all his cases
out of court.

583
00:27:24,208 --> 00:27:26,625
He used his influence
with magazines,

584
00:27:26,709 --> 00:27:28,917
newspapers,
and individual journalists

585
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,583
to get people to
settle lawsuits.

586
00:27:32,291 --> 00:27:35,375
The fear of publicity can
be a very important factor

587
00:27:35,458 --> 00:27:37,083
in inducing a settlement,

588
00:27:37,166 --> 00:27:38,208
and we'd all be crazy

589
00:27:38,291 --> 00:27:41,667
if we didn't acknowledge
that as a fact.

590
00:27:41,750 --> 00:27:45,375
Cindy Adams:
Roy grew to understand
he could use me

591
00:27:45,792 --> 00:27:47,875
when I joined the
"New York Post."

592
00:27:49,250 --> 00:27:52,625
There were stories he was doing,

593
00:27:52,709 --> 00:27:54,583
and it would have served him

594
00:27:54,667 --> 00:27:57,667
if I would take care of
the people he didn't like.

595
00:27:57,750 --> 00:27:59,834
Ivy Meeropol:
How did he pull that off?

596
00:27:59,917 --> 00:28:01,667
By asking me.

597
00:28:01,750 --> 00:28:04,291
-Oh.
-And I did it

598
00:28:04,375 --> 00:28:06,083
because he was my friend,

599
00:28:06,166 --> 00:28:07,583
so it's loyalty.

600
00:28:07,667 --> 00:28:09,917
♪ ♪

601
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:11,375
Cohn:
Look,

602
00:28:11,458 --> 00:28:13,333
a good part of my life,

603
00:28:13,417 --> 00:28:15,834
legally and extra-legally,

604
00:28:15,917 --> 00:28:19,959
consists of having friends
in all walks of life.

605
00:28:24,083 --> 00:28:26,291
For example, the way
I met Rupert Murdoch.

606
00:28:26,375 --> 00:28:29,291
His, uh, when they wanted
a front-page interview

607
00:28:29,375 --> 00:28:32,709
with Carmine Galante,
the Godfather.
-Manso: Mm-hmm.

608
00:28:32,792 --> 00:28:34,417
Cohn:
I never heard
of a Godfather

609
00:28:34,500 --> 00:28:36,583
giving a newspaper
interview before.

610
00:28:36,667 --> 00:28:39,208
The metropolitan editor
of "The Post" called me
and he said,

611
00:28:39,291 --> 00:28:40,667
"We really want
this interview,

612
00:28:40,750 --> 00:28:42,208
"and the boss says
that he's read about you,

613
00:28:42,291 --> 00:28:43,750
"and if you put your
mind to something,

614
00:28:43,834 --> 00:28:45,041
you can get it done."

615
00:28:45,125 --> 00:28:47,166
-Manso: Did you do it?
-Cohn: Yes.

616
00:28:50,166 --> 00:28:52,250
(crowd chatter)

617
00:28:52,333 --> 00:28:54,166
Romano:
He wanted to
make himself this

618
00:28:54,250 --> 00:28:56,083
indispensable power broker,

619
00:28:56,166 --> 00:28:58,250
sort of like
the original fixer.

620
00:28:58,333 --> 00:28:59,917
(inaudible)

621
00:29:00,875 --> 00:29:03,875
There was no clear boundary
between his personal life

622
00:29:03,959 --> 00:29:06,834
and his professional life.
It all kind of overflowed.

623
00:29:06,917 --> 00:29:10,208
♪ ♪

624
00:29:10,291 --> 00:29:13,959
The townhouse was
this combination of residence

625
00:29:14,041 --> 00:29:17,166
and place of business.

626
00:29:17,250 --> 00:29:20,917
Upstairs, there were
floors of offices.

627
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,959
Second and third floors
were his apartment.

628
00:29:25,500 --> 00:29:28,750
And then, way up top,
was the roof deck.

629
00:29:28,834 --> 00:29:31,583
He would sit up there,
with his shirt off,

630
00:29:31,667 --> 00:29:35,166
and he would even
receive clients
while he was doing this.

631
00:29:36,959 --> 00:29:38,750
I assumed that
this law firm

632
00:29:38,834 --> 00:29:40,792
had been in existence
for many years,

633
00:29:40,875 --> 00:29:43,375
but his name
was not on the masthead.

634
00:29:46,125 --> 00:29:47,583
And my understanding is that

635
00:29:47,667 --> 00:29:50,917
he had divested himself
of all his assets,

636
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:52,458
so that he could not be sued.

637
00:29:52,542 --> 00:29:55,583
Everything was
owned by the firm.

638
00:29:55,667 --> 00:29:58,792
Manso:
It's true that you personally
own nothing at all?

639
00:29:58,875 --> 00:30:01,041
Cohn:
100% true.

640
00:30:01,125 --> 00:30:02,792
Reason number one,
obviously,

641
00:30:02,875 --> 00:30:04,917
is my dispute with
Internal Revenue.

642
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,166
So, I made up mind I was not
going to have bank accounts.

643
00:30:08,250 --> 00:30:09,500
I carry cash.

644
00:30:09,583 --> 00:30:12,375
I also have no credit cards.

645
00:30:12,458 --> 00:30:13,959
Manso:
You live very, very well.

646
00:30:14,041 --> 00:30:15,959
You have jets, limousines,

647
00:30:16,041 --> 00:30:18,417
-yachts at your disposal.
-Cohn: Now, wait a minute.

648
00:30:18,500 --> 00:30:20,208
I have very rich
friends and clients

649
00:30:20,291 --> 00:30:21,333
who have confidence in me.

650
00:30:21,417 --> 00:30:22,875
I can name you
10 right now

651
00:30:22,959 --> 00:30:25,125
I could call up and say,
"Look, I hate to trouble you,

652
00:30:25,208 --> 00:30:27,083
"but I'm having
a few problems.

653
00:30:27,166 --> 00:30:29,750
"Would it be convenient
for you to loan me

654
00:30:29,834 --> 00:30:31,750
a large amount of money?"

655
00:30:31,834 --> 00:30:33,792
The answer
would be, instantly,

656
00:30:33,875 --> 00:30:35,792
"Yes."

657
00:30:35,875 --> 00:30:39,333
Morley Safer:
Roy Cohn manages
to spend, I guess,

658
00:30:39,417 --> 00:30:41,959
a half a million dollars
a year as expenses,

659
00:30:42,041 --> 00:30:43,417
without paying
a penny in tax on it.

660
00:30:43,500 --> 00:30:46,041
When we talk expenses,
now that isn't so.

661
00:30:46,125 --> 00:30:49,667
First of all, I have paid
an astronomical amount of taxes.

662
00:30:49,750 --> 00:30:51,875
I, very frankly,
don't wanna earn

663
00:30:51,959 --> 00:30:54,000
any more than I have to earn

664
00:30:54,083 --> 00:30:57,834
because I don't like
the way this country

665
00:30:57,917 --> 00:31:00,917
punishes the workers,
the middle class,

666
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,834
the blue collar people,
the white collar people.

667
00:31:03,917 --> 00:31:06,166
I think it's lousy.

668
00:31:06,250 --> 00:31:11,417
Manso:
Roy Cohn wanted to die
owing the IRS millions.

669
00:31:12,792 --> 00:31:14,583
He never paid his bills.

670
00:31:20,125 --> 00:31:25,625
Here we have a bill from a lease
for 1983 Porsche Cabriolet.

671
00:31:25,709 --> 00:31:29,208
"This vehicle was
repossessed on 4/30/84

672
00:31:29,291 --> 00:31:31,875
for reason of three
months delinquency."

673
00:31:31,959 --> 00:31:34,041
In Roy's handwriting,
"Lillian," one of the women

674
00:31:34,125 --> 00:31:35,667
who worked at
Saxe, Bacon, Bolan,

675
00:31:35,750 --> 00:31:39,041
"Please try to close it
out with no payment."

676
00:31:39,542 --> 00:31:43,375
The Four Seasons Clift Hotel
in San Francisco.

677
00:31:43,458 --> 00:31:47,083
Roy's handwriting.
"Not necessary to pay."

678
00:31:47,166 --> 00:31:53,959
Unpaid laundry bill of
$1,598.21.

679
00:31:54,041 --> 00:31:57,709
The 21 Club,
10 and a half grand.

680
00:31:57,792 --> 00:32:01,291
Sheridan Hotel,
1,100 bucks in Hawaii.

681
00:32:02,166 --> 00:32:05,583
Ivy Meeropol:
Did any of these establishments
really go after him?

682
00:32:05,667 --> 00:32:08,250
Oh yeah! There were
suits against him, sure.

683
00:32:08,333 --> 00:32:10,583
But, you know, did they collect?

684
00:32:10,667 --> 00:32:13,792
♪ ♪

685
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:17,959
Adams:
Roy wanted to have some

686
00:32:18,041 --> 00:32:20,917
Indonesian
and Ming artifacts.

687
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:22,583
I have a dealer here.

688
00:32:22,667 --> 00:32:25,417
So, Joey said,
"Well, let's take Roy."

689
00:32:25,500 --> 00:32:29,583
And I said,
"No, not good because Roy
doesn't pay his bills."

690
00:32:29,667 --> 00:32:32,458
Roy wanted to go anyway,

691
00:32:32,542 --> 00:32:35,625
and he went, and he
picked out three items.

692
00:32:35,709 --> 00:32:38,208
It was about $70,000.

693
00:32:38,458 --> 00:32:40,834
Six months went by,
he hadn't paid.

694
00:32:40,917 --> 00:32:43,208
Finally, the dealer came
up to me and he says,

695
00:32:43,291 --> 00:32:46,208
"Ay, your friend, he don't--
he don't pay nothin'."

696
00:32:46,291 --> 00:32:48,542
And I said, "Not to worry."

697
00:32:49,917 --> 00:32:52,083
I brought my car
down there,

698
00:32:52,166 --> 00:32:54,542
and I went and knocked
on the door.

699
00:32:54,625 --> 00:32:57,041
Elvira was his
longtime housekeeper,

700
00:32:57,125 --> 00:32:59,417
and she knew me for years
and years and years.

701
00:32:59,500 --> 00:33:00,959
And I said, "I came
to collect something."

702
00:33:01,041 --> 00:33:03,458
She says, "Go ahead.
Take whatever you want."

703
00:33:03,542 --> 00:33:05,125
So, I went in
with my driver,

704
00:33:05,208 --> 00:33:08,667
and we took out
the three pieces of art,

705
00:33:08,750 --> 00:33:11,542
put them in the car,
and brought them
back to the dealer.

706
00:33:11,834 --> 00:33:15,166
That night,
he took me to dinner.

707
00:33:15,250 --> 00:33:17,166
He never mentioned it.

708
00:33:17,250 --> 00:33:20,208
He never brought it up ever.

709
00:33:21,041 --> 00:33:23,917
As we walked out,
he said to the maitre d',

710
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:25,709
"The check is in the mail."

711
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,083
♪ ♪

712
00:33:35,291 --> 00:33:39,083
John Klotz:
I'd been very active in
judicial reform politics.

713
00:33:39,792 --> 00:33:42,667
So, in 1979,

714
00:33:42,750 --> 00:33:45,792
I decided that we needed
a task force on Roy Cohn.

715
00:33:46,333 --> 00:33:48,417
A lot of people knew
that what Roy Cohn had

716
00:33:48,500 --> 00:33:50,959
was enormous power
with the media.

717
00:33:51,250 --> 00:33:54,667
And we were trying to create
a counterweight, essentially,

718
00:33:54,750 --> 00:33:58,500
and also document what was
really going on with Roy Cohn.

719
00:33:58,583 --> 00:34:00,959
♪ ♪

720
00:34:01,041 --> 00:34:03,792
Roy Cohn was
a hidden investor

721
00:34:03,875 --> 00:34:05,709
in a series of businesses

722
00:34:05,792 --> 00:34:09,250
that dealed with
all cash primarily.

723
00:34:09,333 --> 00:34:11,500
Among them was parking lots.

724
00:34:14,375 --> 00:34:15,917
Wayne Barrett:
His cash cow

725
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,125
was city-owned parking
lots by the water.

726
00:34:19,208 --> 00:34:21,208
And he controlled the companies

727
00:34:21,291 --> 00:34:23,750
that had the parking lots
that were city-owned,

728
00:34:23,834 --> 00:34:28,041
and it was just
an enormous amount of money.

729
00:34:28,125 --> 00:34:31,542
The guy who leased those
parking lots to him,
Rick Mazzeo,

730
00:34:31,625 --> 00:34:34,458
wound up under
federal investigation,

731
00:34:34,542 --> 00:34:37,500
and they found his body
in the trunk of a car,

732
00:34:37,583 --> 00:34:41,083
and all he did was
give parking lots

733
00:34:41,166 --> 00:34:42,375
to Roy Cohn.

734
00:34:42,458 --> 00:34:44,750
That's what
he did for a living.

735
00:34:45,834 --> 00:34:48,000
Roy Cohn was...

736
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,166
one of the most evil presences,

737
00:34:51,250 --> 00:34:54,208
and I mean evil presences,

738
00:34:54,291 --> 00:34:57,917
in our society during
most of my adult life.

739
00:34:58,500 --> 00:35:02,083
He was not just
a lawyer for the mob.

740
00:35:02,166 --> 00:35:04,250
He was an active participant.

741
00:35:04,333 --> 00:35:07,083
♪ ♪

742
00:35:07,166 --> 00:35:08,834
Allen:
Occasionally,
there were times

743
00:35:08,917 --> 00:35:12,417
where I'd be farmed out
to pick up something
or other.

744
00:35:12,500 --> 00:35:14,583
One time, I went
to Philadelphia

745
00:35:14,667 --> 00:35:17,917
to some federal penitentiary
to pick up parole papers

746
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:19,834
for whoever the Godfather was.

747
00:35:20,834 --> 00:35:22,750
There were trips
over to New Jersey

748
00:35:22,834 --> 00:35:25,000
for various client matters.

749
00:35:26,291 --> 00:35:28,917
Manso:
It sounds almost like
you're a gangster now.

750
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,333
Is this what drew such,
you know, alleged,

751
00:35:31,417 --> 00:35:33,875
lemme put it this way,
Godfathers?

752
00:35:33,959 --> 00:35:35,625
Galante,

753
00:35:35,709 --> 00:35:37,208
Genovese,

754
00:35:37,291 --> 00:35:39,041
"Fat Tony" Salerno...

755
00:35:39,125 --> 00:35:41,208
Cohn:
Let's eliminate
Tony Salerno right away.

756
00:35:41,291 --> 00:35:42,959
Tony is a-- is a good guy.

757
00:35:43,041 --> 00:35:45,750
-Tony is a gambler.
He's filed income taxes...
-Manso: Uh-huh.

758
00:35:45,834 --> 00:35:48,625
Cohn:
...paid heavy income taxes
for over 40 years.

759
00:35:48,709 --> 00:35:52,166
I like him better than
a lot of my other clients.

760
00:35:52,250 --> 00:35:54,250
I know that I can
take his word.

761
00:35:54,333 --> 00:35:56,667
Uh, I know he has guts.

762
00:35:56,750 --> 00:35:59,250
I found him to be a warm,
decent human being

763
00:35:59,333 --> 00:36:00,875
in his treatment
of other people,

764
00:36:00,959 --> 00:36:03,542
particularly other
people who needed help.

765
00:36:04,208 --> 00:36:06,792
What are the charges
against your client,

766
00:36:06,875 --> 00:36:09,667
Anthony "Fat Tony" Salerno?

767
00:36:09,750 --> 00:36:11,792
Cohn:
This indictment says
that they

768
00:36:11,875 --> 00:36:15,333
supervise gambling,
prostitution.

769
00:36:15,417 --> 00:36:17,959
They talk about a cement
company and labor piece,

770
00:36:18,041 --> 00:36:19,583
and that's really about all.

771
00:36:19,667 --> 00:36:22,917
If there's substance to this,
I just don't see it.

772
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,458
Tony, you've read the charges
in this indictment.

773
00:36:26,542 --> 00:36:29,250
Did you do any
of those things--

774
00:36:29,333 --> 00:36:30,959
All false.

775
00:36:31,041 --> 00:36:33,375
♪ ♪

776
00:36:33,458 --> 00:36:35,500
Klotz:
In 1981,

777
00:36:35,583 --> 00:36:38,583
there was a strike
of cement workers.

778
00:36:38,667 --> 00:36:42,834
No ready-mix
concrete project
in Manhattan

779
00:36:42,917 --> 00:36:46,083
was allowed to receive
concrete by the union.

780
00:36:46,166 --> 00:36:50,583
Only Trump Tower
got their ready-mix concrete.

781
00:36:52,875 --> 00:36:54,583
Barrett:
Trump Tower,
when it was completed,

782
00:36:54,667 --> 00:36:55,959
was the tallest
concrete structure,

783
00:36:56,041 --> 00:36:58,000
all-concrete structure,
in the United States.

784
00:36:58,083 --> 00:36:59,917
No steel in the building.

785
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,000
Donald made that choice
at a time when the mob

786
00:37:02,083 --> 00:37:05,917
completely controlled the
concrete industry in New York.

787
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,417
Trump Tower and Trump Plaza,
his co-op project,

788
00:37:09,500 --> 00:37:12,750
they were built by
Fat Tony Salerno's company.

789
00:37:12,834 --> 00:37:16,417
Donald met in Roy Cohn's
office with Fat Tony Salerno,

790
00:37:16,500 --> 00:37:17,917
during the very time period

791
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,542
that they were
in construction.

792
00:37:20,625 --> 00:37:23,542
Klotz:
Through Cohn,
Trump received access

793
00:37:23,625 --> 00:37:26,166
to the worst organized
crime figures

794
00:37:26,250 --> 00:37:28,417
on the New York crime scene.

795
00:37:29,792 --> 00:37:33,250
Protesters:
Close the FBI!
Open up the files!

796
00:37:33,333 --> 00:37:34,375
(cars honking)

797
00:37:34,458 --> 00:37:37,291
Close the FBI!
Open up the files!

798
00:37:37,375 --> 00:37:39,166
Close the FBI!

799
00:37:39,250 --> 00:37:41,250
Open up the files!

800
00:37:41,333 --> 00:37:45,083
Close the FBI!
Open up the files...

801
00:37:45,166 --> 00:37:47,083
Michael Meeropol:
After we were adopted,

802
00:37:47,166 --> 00:37:50,917
we had extraordinarily
normal lives.

803
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:52,917
Went to high school,
went to college,

804
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,458
got married, had kids.

805
00:37:55,542 --> 00:37:57,875
Very few people that we knew

806
00:37:57,959 --> 00:38:01,000
knew that we were the sons of
Julius and Ethel Rosenberg.

807
00:38:02,250 --> 00:38:04,875
It wasn't until 1973,

808
00:38:04,959 --> 00:38:07,709
Robby and I made a decision
to come out publicly

809
00:38:07,792 --> 00:38:10,750
and reclaim our parents.

810
00:38:10,834 --> 00:38:13,417
Reporter:
Michael and Robert Rosenberg,
aged 10 and 6,

811
00:38:13,500 --> 00:38:15,959
paid a final visit to
their parents at Sing Sing.

812
00:38:16,041 --> 00:38:18,250
Twenty-five years later,
they and their supporters

813
00:38:18,333 --> 00:38:20,667
are still fighting to
clear the Rosenbergs' name,

814
00:38:20,750 --> 00:38:22,792
still insisting their
parents were railroaded

815
00:38:22,875 --> 00:38:24,500
in a climate of hysteria.

816
00:38:24,583 --> 00:38:26,166
They have taken
the name of Meeropol

817
00:38:26,250 --> 00:38:28,375
after the family
which adopted them.

818
00:38:28,458 --> 00:38:30,375
Working through
the Freedom
of Information Act,

819
00:38:30,458 --> 00:38:32,750
the Meeropols have compelled
the government to release

820
00:38:32,834 --> 00:38:35,291
100,000 pages of
secret documents.

821
00:38:35,375 --> 00:38:37,417
Among other things,
the papers suggest

822
00:38:37,500 --> 00:38:40,333
the Rosenbergs might
have been granted
a last-minute reprieve

823
00:38:40,417 --> 00:38:42,500
had they volunteered
to confess and testify

824
00:38:42,583 --> 00:38:43,792
about their activities.

825
00:38:43,875 --> 00:38:45,125
Michael Meeropol:
It's the era of Watergate.

826
00:38:45,208 --> 00:38:46,917
It's the era of Nixon

827
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,333
being forced to resign.

828
00:38:49,417 --> 00:38:52,208
This is a time to
launch a campaign.

829
00:38:52,625 --> 00:38:56,458
FBI close down,
open up the files!

830
00:38:56,542 --> 00:39:00,458
All:
FBI close down,
open up the files!

831
00:39:00,542 --> 00:39:01,667
FBI close down...

832
00:39:01,750 --> 00:39:03,333
(inaudible)

833
00:39:03,417 --> 00:39:05,834
Michael Meeropol:
I remember my brother
in speeches saying

834
00:39:05,917 --> 00:39:09,583
that by exposing
the frame up of Julius
and Ethel Rosenberg,

835
00:39:09,667 --> 00:39:12,000
we were fighting
Watergate at its roots.

836
00:39:12,083 --> 00:39:15,834
-And that's true.
-(applause)

837
00:39:15,917 --> 00:39:19,166
We were actually sticking
it to the government,

838
00:39:19,250 --> 00:39:22,291
and that felt good.

839
00:39:22,375 --> 00:39:24,333
We felt confidence
in ourselves

840
00:39:24,417 --> 00:39:26,375
that we could make the case.

841
00:39:27,166 --> 00:39:29,750
I took a leave from my job.

842
00:39:29,834 --> 00:39:32,583
Robby was only
working part-time.

843
00:39:32,667 --> 00:39:34,000
We wrote our book together.

844
00:39:34,083 --> 00:39:35,792
We went on speaking tours.

845
00:39:36,417 --> 00:39:37,500
Basically,

846
00:39:37,583 --> 00:39:40,500
from spring of 1974

847
00:39:40,583 --> 00:39:42,750
through June of 1978,

848
00:39:42,834 --> 00:39:44,667
I had three jobs.

849
00:39:44,750 --> 00:39:46,417
I had my job to earn money,

850
00:39:46,500 --> 00:39:49,834
my job to be
your and Greg's dad
and Mom's husband,

851
00:39:49,917 --> 00:39:52,166
and the job
of public Rosenberg

852
00:39:52,250 --> 00:39:53,709
fighting to reopen the case.

853
00:39:53,792 --> 00:39:56,667
I'd like to see
a judicial judgment,

854
00:39:56,750 --> 00:39:58,959
not just that my
parents were innocent,

855
00:39:59,041 --> 00:40:01,375
but that individuals

856
00:40:01,458 --> 00:40:05,000
conspired criminally
to convict them falsely.

857
00:40:05,083 --> 00:40:08,083
I'd like to see
the perpetrators locked up.

858
00:40:10,542 --> 00:40:12,125
This was the 1970s.

859
00:40:12,208 --> 00:40:14,875
You know,
sex, drugs,
and rock and roll.

860
00:40:14,959 --> 00:40:17,458
And I was relatively serious,

861
00:40:17,542 --> 00:40:20,208
didn't do much
drugs by any means.

862
00:40:20,291 --> 00:40:23,375
-(singing)
-I liked music.

863
00:40:23,458 --> 00:40:25,750
My music experience
was sitting around
in the living room

864
00:40:25,834 --> 00:40:28,917
with four people playing
guitars, singing songs,
you know.

865
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:31,333
All (singing):
♪ Guantanamera ♪

866
00:40:31,959 --> 00:40:35,375
♪ Guantanamera... ♪

867
00:40:35,458 --> 00:40:38,417
(groovy music playing)

868
00:40:38,500 --> 00:40:41,250
(street noise)

869
00:40:41,333 --> 00:40:44,625
(indistinct chatter)

870
00:41:05,959 --> 00:41:07,709
-Tom Snyder:
Do you go there for fun?
-Cohn: Oh, sure.

871
00:41:07,792 --> 00:41:10,083
Do we see Roy Cohn
on the dance floor?
Like, you know--

872
00:41:10,166 --> 00:41:11,875
-Well, I'm not too good
on the dance floor,
-Neither am I.

873
00:41:11,959 --> 00:41:14,291
but I like to go in there--
I like to go in there and watch.

874
00:41:14,375 --> 00:41:15,875
If they go back
to Viennese waltzes,

875
00:41:15,959 --> 00:41:17,667
I might-- I might
come back into style.

876
00:41:17,750 --> 00:41:20,500
(club chatter)

877
00:41:24,875 --> 00:41:26,709
Cohn:
You look to your left,
and you see a bunch of kooks.

878
00:41:26,792 --> 00:41:28,000
You look to your right,

879
00:41:28,083 --> 00:41:30,291
and you'll see movie stars,
ambassadors,

880
00:41:30,375 --> 00:41:32,959
senators, congressmen,
and it's a kick.

881
00:41:33,041 --> 00:41:34,333
It's just a thing
all of its own.

882
00:41:34,417 --> 00:41:37,125
♪ ♪

883
00:41:37,208 --> 00:41:39,542
(club chatter)

884
00:41:40,959 --> 00:41:44,000
Marcus:
Why was Roy Cohn
involved with Studio 54?

885
00:41:44,083 --> 00:41:47,166
It was the hottest disco
in the world, and somehow,

886
00:41:47,250 --> 00:41:49,333
Roy was the lawyer for
one of the partners,

887
00:41:49,417 --> 00:41:51,667
and also sort of
the lawyer for Studio 54.

888
00:41:51,750 --> 00:41:53,959
We cooperate fully
with the authorities.

889
00:41:54,041 --> 00:41:57,166
But if you want a bond posted
that no one ever smoked a joint

890
00:41:57,250 --> 00:41:59,333
in a discotheque in
the United States,

891
00:41:59,417 --> 00:42:01,542
you're talking to the wrong guy.

892
00:42:02,917 --> 00:42:05,917
Roy knew how to get
permits taken care of,

893
00:42:06,667 --> 00:42:09,166
unions to do your bidding,

894
00:42:09,250 --> 00:42:11,625
the mafia to leave you alone.

895
00:42:11,709 --> 00:42:14,792
Manso:
Roy played godfather
to Rubell and Schrager,

896
00:42:14,875 --> 00:42:16,875
and they rewarded
him appropriately.

897
00:42:16,959 --> 00:42:18,917
They not only paid him well,

898
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:20,625
but Roy had a key to the joint.

899
00:42:20,709 --> 00:42:24,041
♪ ♪

900
00:42:37,875 --> 00:42:40,667
Theodoracopulos:
Studio 54,
it was the first time

901
00:42:40,750 --> 00:42:42,375
that a nightclub

902
00:42:42,458 --> 00:42:45,500
operated on a completely
different level.

903
00:42:47,458 --> 00:42:49,750
There was sex upstairs,
open sex,

904
00:42:49,834 --> 00:42:53,291
mostly gay, and people
dancing downstairs,

905
00:42:53,375 --> 00:42:55,667
and a hell of a lot of drugs.

906
00:42:57,709 --> 00:43:00,291
And Roy was there a lot.

907
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:06,125
(inaudible)

908
00:43:06,208 --> 00:43:07,959
Manso:
Roy had alliances.

909
00:43:08,041 --> 00:43:10,750
I don't think Roy ever
had a relationship.

910
00:43:10,834 --> 00:43:14,041
Roy was not interested
in a relationship.

911
00:43:15,125 --> 00:43:16,959
For years, Roy pretended
to be straight.

912
00:43:18,417 --> 00:43:21,667
To the extent of announcing
that he was engaged
to Barbara Walters.

913
00:43:22,458 --> 00:43:24,792
We're getting married
when we're both 60.

914
00:43:24,875 --> 00:43:27,000
(laughs)

915
00:43:27,083 --> 00:43:28,792
Lane:
Roy would call
Cindy Adams and say,

916
00:43:28,875 --> 00:43:31,500
"Would you, you know,
put an item in your column?

917
00:43:31,583 --> 00:43:34,291
Barbara Walters
and I may get married."

918
00:43:35,500 --> 00:43:36,875
Adams:
I knew the boyfriends.

919
00:43:36,959 --> 00:43:38,792
I can't remember
who they were now,

920
00:43:38,875 --> 00:43:41,166
but they were all
nice-looking and young.

921
00:43:41,542 --> 00:43:42,917
(laughs)

922
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:44,583
You know?
Should happen to me.

923
00:43:44,667 --> 00:43:46,291
Absolutely. (laughs)

924
00:43:46,375 --> 00:43:48,125
It was fine.

925
00:43:48,208 --> 00:43:49,709
Yes, of course I knew.

926
00:43:50,750 --> 00:43:52,375
We all knew.

927
00:43:52,834 --> 00:43:55,625
(film scratching)

928
00:43:55,709 --> 00:43:58,125
Homosexuality is an enigma.

929
00:43:58,208 --> 00:44:00,291
Even in this era of
bold sexual mores,

930
00:44:00,375 --> 00:44:03,041
it remains a subject
that people find disturbing.

931
00:44:03,125 --> 00:44:04,291
Embarrassing.

932
00:44:04,375 --> 00:44:05,917
Most Americans
are repelled by

933
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:07,792
the mere notion
of homosexuality.

934
00:44:07,875 --> 00:44:10,917
The homosexual,
bitterly aware
of his rejection,

935
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,667
responds
by going underground.

936
00:44:13,750 --> 00:44:16,375
♪ ♪

937
00:44:17,375 --> 00:44:20,208
In the '70s, I was working--

938
00:44:20,291 --> 00:44:22,750
Well, hooking,
at a bar called Rounds.

939
00:44:26,041 --> 00:44:29,083
I was picked up by this guy that
I thought was very attractive.

940
00:44:29,166 --> 00:44:30,500
So I was like, this is great

941
00:44:30,583 --> 00:44:32,875
'cause I'm gonna get paid
plus he's really cute.

942
00:44:34,583 --> 00:44:37,000
They wanted me
to meet somebody.

943
00:44:37,083 --> 00:44:40,917
And they drove me deep
in the woods somewhere.

944
00:44:42,709 --> 00:44:46,458
It was very secretive.
It was very covert
operation-like.

945
00:44:52,917 --> 00:44:54,291
(crackling)

946
00:44:54,375 --> 00:44:56,458
Sitting on the sofa was Roy

947
00:44:56,542 --> 00:45:00,083
in this black velour robe.

948
00:45:00,166 --> 00:45:01,709
He was very tanned,

949
00:45:01,792 --> 00:45:03,500
and very, uh, you know,

950
00:45:03,583 --> 00:45:05,667
kinda lizard-like, you know?

951
00:45:05,750 --> 00:45:07,417
But-- but like an old auntie.

952
00:45:07,500 --> 00:45:09,959
Like that had just come home
from bingo and was cold.

953
00:45:11,208 --> 00:45:14,500
He asked me to sit down
on the sofa next to him.

954
00:45:14,583 --> 00:45:16,208
He made me a cocktail.

955
00:45:16,291 --> 00:45:18,208
I think I asked
for a screwdriver.

956
00:45:18,291 --> 00:45:19,750
♪ ♪

957
00:45:19,834 --> 00:45:22,542
I saw an album

958
00:45:22,625 --> 00:45:24,625
of Mabel Mercer
and Bobby Short,

959
00:45:24,709 --> 00:45:26,792
and I was a fan of this album.

960
00:45:28,917 --> 00:45:31,208
-("When In Rome" playing)
-So, we started
talking about that,

961
00:45:31,291 --> 00:45:34,083
and he was really surprised
that I knew who
Mabel Mercer was.

962
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,166
After a very long talk,

963
00:45:38,250 --> 00:45:39,625
I went upstairs

964
00:45:39,709 --> 00:45:41,875
and had sex with this guy that
I guess was his boyfriend.

965
00:45:41,959 --> 00:45:43,750
I don't know what was happening.

966
00:45:44,041 --> 00:45:45,625
And then,
a couple weeks later,

967
00:45:45,709 --> 00:45:48,667
it happened all over again
where they brought me to him,

968
00:45:48,750 --> 00:45:52,041
but at that point, I thought
we were "friends," you know?

969
00:45:52,125 --> 00:45:53,417
♪ I can't explain ♪

970
00:45:53,500 --> 00:45:56,583
♪ Please ignore
my fondness for... ♪

971
00:45:56,667 --> 00:45:59,041
I said,
"What exactly did you...

972
00:45:59,125 --> 00:46:01,417
"do you-- did you
want me to come here for?

973
00:46:01,500 --> 00:46:03,250
Was I supposed to
have sex with you?"

974
00:46:03,333 --> 00:46:05,000
(song stops)

975
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:09,166
That's when it turned...

976
00:46:11,083 --> 00:46:13,125
in a-- in a very strange way.

977
00:46:13,208 --> 00:46:16,583
♪ ♪

978
00:46:16,667 --> 00:46:18,917
And he got angry with me.

979
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:20,667
Didn't raise his
voice so much as

980
00:46:20,750 --> 00:46:23,625
his eyes and the tone
of voice was strange,

981
00:46:23,709 --> 00:46:27,291
and he said, "I asked you
here to discuss music."

982
00:46:27,375 --> 00:46:29,250
He was done with me
at that point.

983
00:46:29,333 --> 00:46:31,166
It's sort of like,
you know,

984
00:46:31,250 --> 00:46:33,583
Blanche DuBois, you know?

985
00:46:33,667 --> 00:46:36,875
"I don't want reality!
I want dreams."

986
00:46:40,583 --> 00:46:42,208
Lane:
He came from a certain
generation

987
00:46:42,291 --> 00:46:45,291
where you obviously
couldn't be openly gay,

988
00:46:45,375 --> 00:46:48,583
and work in the world
that he was working in.

989
00:46:50,875 --> 00:46:54,333
Allen:
I remember that there was
an assistant named Vincent.

990
00:46:54,417 --> 00:46:58,834
He was a young, good-looking guy
who kind of passed in and out,

991
00:46:58,917 --> 00:47:00,875
and gradually,
it dawned on me that

992
00:47:00,959 --> 00:47:03,333
there's probably some kind
of personal relationship

993
00:47:03,417 --> 00:47:04,959
between him and Cohn.

994
00:47:05,041 --> 00:47:06,959
Cohn:
Did you remember I had a lunch
date with Barbara Walters?

995
00:47:07,041 --> 00:47:08,834
-When is that?
-Cohn: Today.

996
00:47:08,917 --> 00:47:12,667
Kushner:
He knew how to be a gay man
who was in the closet.

997
00:47:12,750 --> 00:47:15,625
But, he'll play
games with it also.

998
00:47:15,709 --> 00:47:18,375
He was flaunting it
in a certain sense,

999
00:47:18,458 --> 00:47:21,709
and sort of daring people
to see how much room

1000
00:47:21,792 --> 00:47:24,250
there was to do
whatever you wanted.

1001
00:47:25,125 --> 00:47:27,250
♪ ♪

1002
00:47:27,333 --> 00:47:30,417
(birds cawing)

1003
00:47:35,417 --> 00:47:36,917
Cohn:
I'm basically an introvert.

1004
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:38,917
I'm basically
a private person.

1005
00:47:40,333 --> 00:47:42,000
When I'm with my friends,

1006
00:47:42,083 --> 00:47:43,917
under circumstances
of privacy,

1007
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:45,834
that's what I really love.

1008
00:47:45,917 --> 00:47:47,875
I think what makes
my adrenaline go

1009
00:47:47,959 --> 00:47:50,583
more than anything else
is this combination.

1010
00:47:50,667 --> 00:47:52,000
I can't have one without--

1011
00:47:52,083 --> 00:47:54,041
-Manso: The public
and private.
-Cohn: Right.

1012
00:47:55,792 --> 00:47:57,208
Manso:
Many people were shocked

1013
00:47:57,291 --> 00:47:59,709
that Roy Cohn
appeared in Provincetown,

1014
00:47:59,792 --> 00:48:05,000
which is probably
the world's leading
summertime gay community.

1015
00:48:05,083 --> 00:48:07,250
He was summering
in Provincetown,

1016
00:48:07,333 --> 00:48:09,583
quite out in the open,
quite conspicuously.

1017
00:48:09,667 --> 00:48:12,709
♪ ♪

1018
00:48:12,792 --> 00:48:15,333
(indistinct chatter)

1019
00:48:16,792 --> 00:48:20,291
Roy loved the craziness
of Provincetown.

1020
00:48:20,375 --> 00:48:23,291
He loved the drinking,
he loved the games,

1021
00:48:23,375 --> 00:48:25,834
the social crap that
went on downtown.

1022
00:48:25,917 --> 00:48:28,417
(cheering)

1023
00:48:30,250 --> 00:48:33,959
John Waters:
When I saw him, I was
appalled that he was here.

1024
00:48:35,792 --> 00:48:37,834
The only place I ever
saw him in person

1025
00:48:37,917 --> 00:48:41,000
that I remember was in
Front Street, repeatedly.

1026
00:48:41,792 --> 00:48:43,792
It was a jumpin' scene.

1027
00:48:43,875 --> 00:48:47,125
I mean, it was definitely
the place to be
in Provincetown.

1028
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,917
And he was always in
there with hustlers,

1029
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:52,917
and it infuriated me.

1030
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:54,917
(indistinct chatter,
glasses clinking)

1031
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:57,875
All these boys
around the table.

1032
00:48:57,959 --> 00:49:01,000
They were ordering champagne
and fancy food and, you know.

1033
00:49:01,083 --> 00:49:02,834
It didn't seem like
they were discussing

1034
00:49:02,917 --> 00:49:05,000
the history of Communism.

1035
00:49:06,125 --> 00:49:08,166
I would've been
a Communist then.

1036
00:49:08,250 --> 00:49:09,875
Just meant a liberal, really.

1037
00:49:09,959 --> 00:49:11,792
(laughs) You know, I was worse.

1038
00:49:12,333 --> 00:49:13,458
I was a young--

1039
00:49:13,542 --> 00:49:15,500
just lunatic
myself, really,

1040
00:49:15,583 --> 00:49:16,959
so I never spoke to him.

1041
00:49:17,041 --> 00:49:18,583
And complained
that he was in there

1042
00:49:18,667 --> 00:49:20,542
to the people that owned it,
who was my dear friend

1043
00:49:20,625 --> 00:49:22,583
Howard Gruber,
who was Jewish!

1044
00:49:22,667 --> 00:49:24,208
He said, "Well, I just
always spit in his food

1045
00:49:24,291 --> 00:49:25,875
every time when I serve it."

1046
00:49:25,959 --> 00:49:28,000
I would've done more than spit.

1047
00:49:28,083 --> 00:49:30,000
♪ ♪

1048
00:49:30,083 --> 00:49:31,959
Noreen Bahring:
He'd stop into
Front Street

1049
00:49:32,041 --> 00:49:35,917
to make a reservation
for a 25-person seating.

1050
00:49:37,083 --> 00:49:39,709
He was a true perfectionist.

1051
00:49:41,458 --> 00:49:43,625
Before any of
the guests arrived,

1052
00:49:43,709 --> 00:49:46,000
he had to see it set up.

1053
00:49:48,709 --> 00:49:52,333
He would bring in
these candy dishes,

1054
00:49:52,417 --> 00:49:54,375
and he would fill
them with cocaine.

1055
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:57,333
A substantial amount of cocaine.

1056
00:49:57,417 --> 00:50:00,125
He would then
place these Tuinals

1057
00:50:00,208 --> 00:50:02,208
to the right
of every setting.

1058
00:50:02,291 --> 00:50:03,333
It's a sedative,

1059
00:50:03,417 --> 00:50:06,542
so if they got
too crazy on the cocaine,

1060
00:50:06,625 --> 00:50:09,583
they would have a Tuinal
to level themselves out.

1061
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:13,333
Waters:
It was a coke pit.

1062
00:50:13,417 --> 00:50:15,166
It was during
the cocaine years.

1063
00:50:15,250 --> 00:50:17,166
And I did cocaine
in the bathroom there.

1064
00:50:17,250 --> 00:50:18,375
Everybody did.

1065
00:50:18,458 --> 00:50:20,333
Did I ever do coke with him?
I wouldn't have!

1066
00:50:20,417 --> 00:50:22,250
I wouldn't have had my nostril

1067
00:50:22,333 --> 00:50:24,959
on the same straw as that pig!

1068
00:50:25,041 --> 00:50:27,500
♪ ♪

1069
00:50:27,583 --> 00:50:30,125
He came here for easy sex

1070
00:50:30,208 --> 00:50:31,709
and handsome men

1071
00:50:31,792 --> 00:50:33,834
and probably easy
access to drugs.

1072
00:50:33,917 --> 00:50:35,375
And no paparazzi.

1073
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:39,291
And maybe the fact that
people didn't know who he was.

1074
00:50:42,250 --> 00:50:44,250
(birds cawing)

1075
00:50:48,667 --> 00:50:49,792
(sighs)

1076
00:50:50,458 --> 00:50:52,000
(clinking)

1077
00:50:52,625 --> 00:50:56,333
This is Roy's cottage
that he rented there.

1078
00:50:56,417 --> 00:51:00,291
It's fixed up
somewhat now.

1079
00:51:01,166 --> 00:51:02,792
And this is my house.

1080
00:51:03,417 --> 00:51:07,125
So you can see,
we were very connected.

1081
00:51:09,750 --> 00:51:13,083
A neighbor up the street came
to me that he had a renter.

1082
00:51:13,166 --> 00:51:15,959
I had never rented before.
I said, great.

1083
00:51:16,500 --> 00:51:17,959
And he didn't
tell me who it was.

1084
00:51:18,041 --> 00:51:19,917
He said, "But don't
worry about it."

1085
00:51:21,166 --> 00:51:23,583
So, lo and behold,

1086
00:51:23,667 --> 00:51:25,792
Roy Cohn moves in.

1087
00:51:26,458 --> 00:51:28,750
I didn't know
that much about Roy,

1088
00:51:28,834 --> 00:51:31,291
but I knew enough.

1089
00:51:33,125 --> 00:51:34,917
The neighbors right away

1090
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:36,875
knew much more than I did.

1091
00:51:36,959 --> 00:51:39,083
"How could you have
done that to us?

1092
00:51:39,166 --> 00:51:41,500
"How could you
have made that man

1093
00:51:41,583 --> 00:51:44,625
live across the street
from me?" And so on.

1094
00:51:44,834 --> 00:51:48,000
But, the rent was paid,
the house was clean,

1095
00:51:48,083 --> 00:51:50,083
and he was a good tenant.

1096
00:51:50,166 --> 00:51:53,083
And he had lots
and lots of guests

1097
00:51:53,166 --> 00:51:54,875
all the time.

1098
00:51:54,959 --> 00:51:58,500
Tall, blonde, blue-eyed,
built like...

1099
00:51:58,917 --> 00:52:00,500
(grunt) yummy.

1100
00:52:03,500 --> 00:52:05,834
I never saw him alone,

1101
00:52:05,917 --> 00:52:07,834
except for when
he went swimming.

1102
00:52:07,917 --> 00:52:10,500
♪ ♪

1103
00:52:21,041 --> 00:52:22,709
That's an interesting thought.

1104
00:52:23,250 --> 00:52:24,917
Never alone.

1105
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:28,458
Always at least
two or three people,

1106
00:52:28,542 --> 00:52:31,208
if not more... hovering.

1107
00:52:32,417 --> 00:52:35,917
How important is it to
spend time with yourself?

1108
00:52:41,291 --> 00:52:44,291
I rented to him
a second year,

1109
00:52:44,375 --> 00:52:47,250
and he then came to me
and said he wanted to buy it.

1110
00:52:48,083 --> 00:52:50,083
I said, "Well,
it's not for sale."

1111
00:52:50,750 --> 00:52:52,417
And he looked at me

1112
00:52:52,500 --> 00:52:54,834
with these very cold eyes.

1113
00:52:54,917 --> 00:52:56,583
Said, "Things have
a way of being sold

1114
00:52:56,667 --> 00:52:58,750
that aren't for sale, Anne."

1115
00:53:00,166 --> 00:53:02,250
I just shivered.

1116
00:53:04,250 --> 00:53:05,667
(birds cawing)

1117
00:53:05,750 --> 00:53:09,458
Fortunately, he bought
the place two houses from me.

1118
00:53:12,333 --> 00:53:15,250
Manso:
Norman Mailer and I were
buying a house together.

1119
00:53:15,333 --> 00:53:18,000
Roy jumps into that project,

1120
00:53:18,083 --> 00:53:19,917
and snags for himself

1121
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,083
the cottage that's
on the property.

1122
00:53:22,166 --> 00:53:26,041
♪ ♪

1123
00:53:29,667 --> 00:53:33,959
I can recall one Sunday
on his big deck.

1124
00:53:36,458 --> 00:53:39,041
Roy is surrounded
by newspapers.

1125
00:53:39,125 --> 00:53:43,291
You know, the "LA Times,"
the "New York Times,"
London papers.

1126
00:53:43,375 --> 00:53:46,959
Norman Mailer had
recently gotten back
from Russia,

1127
00:53:47,041 --> 00:53:50,041
where he did a piece
for "Parade Magazine,"

1128
00:53:50,125 --> 00:53:52,333
praising Russia to the skies.

1129
00:53:52,417 --> 00:53:53,875
He loved Russian food.

1130
00:53:53,959 --> 00:53:55,667
"The borscht, oh!
You've never had borscht

1131
00:53:55,750 --> 00:53:57,041
"like you can get in Moscow.

1132
00:53:57,125 --> 00:53:58,500
"Russian women!

1133
00:53:58,583 --> 00:54:00,166
Nothing like it!"

1134
00:54:01,583 --> 00:54:03,375
Roy was looking
at Norman's piece,

1135
00:54:03,458 --> 00:54:05,542
and Roy looks up and he says,
"Have you read this?

1136
00:54:05,625 --> 00:54:07,166
"You know,
your friend Mailer

1137
00:54:07,250 --> 00:54:09,333
"you know,
is so fucking in love
with the Russians,

1138
00:54:09,417 --> 00:54:10,834
"he'll really be happy
when, you know,

1139
00:54:10,917 --> 00:54:12,917
"the Ruskies
drop a nuke on him.

1140
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:15,083
That'll bring him
to his senses maybe!"

1141
00:54:15,166 --> 00:54:16,625
(TV static)

1142
00:54:16,709 --> 00:54:19,875
(classical music playing)

1143
00:54:23,333 --> 00:54:24,917
Guilty or innocent?

1144
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:26,959
The question lingers
after 30 years,

1145
00:54:27,041 --> 00:54:29,792
and still divides many
people here and abroad.

1146
00:54:29,875 --> 00:54:33,333
I would like to introduce
briefly our guests tonight.

1147
00:54:33,417 --> 00:54:35,250
To my left, Marshall Perlin,

1148
00:54:35,333 --> 00:54:37,291
a lawyer involved with the case.

1149
00:54:37,375 --> 00:54:40,542
To my left,
Professor Michael Meeropol,

1150
00:54:40,625 --> 00:54:43,417
one of the sons of
Ethel and Julius Rosenberg.

1151
00:54:43,500 --> 00:54:46,667
And to my right,
attorney Roy Cohn.

1152
00:54:46,750 --> 00:54:48,500
♪ ♪

1153
00:54:48,583 --> 00:54:50,917
Michael Meeropol:
When Robby and I got
a lot of publicity,

1154
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:54,208
we discover that
Roy Cohn has taken on

1155
00:54:54,291 --> 00:54:57,291
the mantle of defending
the government.

1156
00:54:57,375 --> 00:54:59,875
Why was clemency not granted?

1157
00:54:59,959 --> 00:55:01,583
What was standing in the way?

1158
00:55:01,667 --> 00:55:04,208
Well, it is justified
in the case of two people

1159
00:55:04,291 --> 00:55:07,333
who stole secrets
involving a bomb

1160
00:55:07,417 --> 00:55:11,291
which could take thousands
and thousands of human lives,

1161
00:55:11,375 --> 00:55:13,250
and turning it over to an enemy,

1162
00:55:13,333 --> 00:55:15,959
which has blacked out
a good part of the world,

1163
00:55:16,041 --> 00:55:18,000
and taken many human lives.

1164
00:55:18,083 --> 00:55:19,625
What could be worse than

1165
00:55:19,709 --> 00:55:22,417
-selling out your own country?
-Host: Mr. Meeropol?

1166
00:55:22,500 --> 00:55:26,166
Yes. The first thing that
people have to realize is,

1167
00:55:26,250 --> 00:55:28,959
of course, that the man
who's saying all this

1168
00:55:29,041 --> 00:55:31,250
was part of a prosecution team

1169
00:55:31,333 --> 00:55:33,542
that engaged in
subornation of perjury

1170
00:55:33,625 --> 00:55:35,625
and a conspiracy
to deprive civil rights

1171
00:55:35,709 --> 00:55:37,250
by false prosecution.

1172
00:55:37,333 --> 00:55:39,375
Now, he's not gonna
stand on television
in the United States

1173
00:55:39,458 --> 00:55:40,583
and confess to doing that.

1174
00:55:40,667 --> 00:55:41,834
He hasn't been in the habit

1175
00:55:41,917 --> 00:55:44,250
of confessing crimes
in his entire career,

1176
00:55:44,333 --> 00:55:45,917
and I don't expect
he's gonna start now.

1177
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:48,875
Fact remains
that ever since 1953,

1178
00:55:48,959 --> 00:55:52,542
we have uncovered
perjuries on the part of
prosecution witnesses.

1179
00:55:52,625 --> 00:55:54,166
We have uncovered forgeries.

1180
00:55:54,250 --> 00:55:56,208
We've uncovered
factual material--

1181
00:55:56,291 --> 00:55:57,834
Now, you're accusing
me of corruption--

1182
00:55:57,917 --> 00:55:59,583
-No, no, no, no...
-That's a strong thing to say.

1183
00:55:59,667 --> 00:56:01,333
Now, let me make
a very interesting comment

1184
00:56:01,417 --> 00:56:02,667
that your viewers
may be interested in.

1185
00:56:02,750 --> 00:56:05,250
We have a way of reopening
the case right now.

1186
00:56:05,333 --> 00:56:07,041
If I just told a lie

1187
00:56:07,125 --> 00:56:08,750
about Mr. Cohn's
criminal conduct,

1188
00:56:08,834 --> 00:56:10,500
-I've committed libel.
-Host: We don't--

1189
00:56:10,583 --> 00:56:12,458
-We've got a perfect chance
to have a courtroom.
-Host: Again--

1190
00:56:12,542 --> 00:56:14,709
Again, we don't want to
get into this right here.

1191
00:56:14,792 --> 00:56:16,667
Michael Meeropol:
He knows what he did.
He doesn't wanna do it.

1192
00:56:16,750 --> 00:56:18,500
Host:
I would like to hear more
about the motivation...

1193
00:56:18,583 --> 00:56:20,583
Michael Meeropol:
Of course,
he did know what he did.

1194
00:56:20,667 --> 00:56:22,917
The point is he didn't care.

1195
00:56:23,959 --> 00:56:26,583
If it wasn't for me, Joe,

1196
00:56:26,667 --> 00:56:30,000
Ethel Rosenberg
would be alive today.

1197
00:56:31,041 --> 00:56:34,375
I would've fucking
pulled the switch
if they'd have let me.

1198
00:56:34,458 --> 00:56:37,417
Why? Because I
fucking hate traitors.

1199
00:56:37,500 --> 00:56:39,917
Because I fucking
hate Communists!

1200
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:42,625
Was it legal? Fuck legal.

1201
00:56:42,709 --> 00:56:44,667
Am I a nice man?

1202
00:56:44,750 --> 00:56:45,959
Fuck nice!

1203
00:56:46,041 --> 00:56:49,333
They say terrible things
about me in "The Nation."

1204
00:56:49,417 --> 00:56:51,500
Fuck "The Nation"!

1205
00:56:51,583 --> 00:56:53,625
You wanna be nice?!

1206
00:56:53,709 --> 00:56:56,125
Or you wanna be effective?!

1207
00:56:56,333 --> 00:56:59,959
Make the law,
or subject to it! Choose!

1208
00:57:01,750 --> 00:57:03,959
The Rosenbergs
convicted themselves

1209
00:57:04,041 --> 00:57:05,583
by taking the witness stand

1210
00:57:05,667 --> 00:57:07,166
and lying through their teeth.

1211
00:57:07,250 --> 00:57:09,125
There were a number
of other people,

1212
00:57:09,208 --> 00:57:10,917
recruited by the Rosenbergs,

1213
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:13,959
working with the Rosenbergs,
who escaped.

1214
00:57:14,917 --> 00:57:16,417
I welcome a full inquiry.

1215
00:57:16,500 --> 00:57:19,583
I urge you to use
the power of subpoena,

1216
00:57:19,667 --> 00:57:22,583
get secret documents,
talk to witnesses,

1217
00:57:22,667 --> 00:57:24,917
put people like
Mr. Cohn under oath,

1218
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:27,083
and keep at him

1219
00:57:27,166 --> 00:57:29,583
about things that were
developed, prosecution,

1220
00:57:29,667 --> 00:57:31,500
changes, etc., etc.

1221
00:57:31,583 --> 00:57:33,417
I feel the people
who framed my parents

1222
00:57:33,500 --> 00:57:36,041
trampled the American
flag in the mud,

1223
00:57:36,125 --> 00:57:38,125
and I think it's up
to us to wash it.

1224
00:57:38,208 --> 00:57:39,291
I could look him in the eye

1225
00:57:39,375 --> 00:57:40,542
and I could point
at him and say,

1226
00:57:40,625 --> 00:57:42,834
"You knew what you did."

1227
00:57:43,417 --> 00:57:44,750
And I kept saying,

1228
00:57:44,834 --> 00:57:48,083
"Come on!
If I'm lying, sue me!"

1229
00:57:49,375 --> 00:57:51,500
And he just brushed it off.

1230
00:58:00,166 --> 00:58:01,875
Manso:
"Who elected Ronald Reagan?

1231
00:58:01,959 --> 00:58:04,458
"It was union members,
defying their leaders.

1232
00:58:04,542 --> 00:58:06,792
"It was the blue collar worker,
the truck driver.

1233
00:58:06,875 --> 00:58:09,500
"Because they're the ones who
are getting hit by our economy.

1234
00:58:09,583 --> 00:58:12,166
It's the middle class
that's been going under."

1235
00:58:12,709 --> 00:58:14,000
You know what?

1236
00:58:14,083 --> 00:58:18,333
That is the subtext to
the election of Donald Trump.

1237
00:58:19,125 --> 00:58:20,667
Hmm.

1238
00:58:20,750 --> 00:58:23,625
And this was what? 1981.

1239
00:58:23,709 --> 00:58:26,000
♪ ♪

1240
00:58:26,083 --> 00:58:27,834
Mike Wallace:
You have claimed
to have been a fan

1241
00:58:27,917 --> 00:58:30,166
-of Ronald Reagan,
supporter of Reagan.
-Cohn: I haven't claimed.

1242
00:58:30,250 --> 00:58:31,875
-I have been.
-Wallace: Alright, wonderful.

1243
00:58:31,959 --> 00:58:34,333
For many years.
Way before,

1244
00:58:34,417 --> 00:58:36,834
-way before a national--
-Cohn: No, I can tell
you exactly when.

1245
00:58:36,917 --> 00:58:40,959
When he made the speech for
Barry Goldwater in 1964.

1246
00:58:41,041 --> 00:58:43,583
Ronald Reagan came
across as a giant.

1247
00:58:43,667 --> 00:58:45,250
Ronald Reagan:
We're at war with
the most dangerous enemy

1248
00:58:45,333 --> 00:58:47,917
that has ever faced
mankind in his long climb

1249
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:50,166
from the swamp to the stars.

1250
00:58:50,250 --> 00:58:51,834
And it's been said
if we lose that war,

1251
00:58:51,917 --> 00:58:54,917
and in so doing
lose this way of
freedom of ours,

1252
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:57,041
history will record with
the greatest astonishment

1253
00:58:57,125 --> 00:58:59,291
that those who had
the most to lose

1254
00:58:59,375 --> 00:59:01,834
did the least to
prevent its happening.

1255
00:59:01,917 --> 00:59:03,166
(applause)

1256
00:59:03,250 --> 00:59:06,125
Crowd:
We want Reagan! We want Reagan!

1257
00:59:06,208 --> 00:59:07,750
We want Reagan!

1258
00:59:07,834 --> 00:59:10,000
We want Reagan!
We want Reagan!

1259
00:59:10,083 --> 00:59:13,375
(chanting, cheering continues)

1260
00:59:13,458 --> 00:59:17,542
Marcus:
Many people did not expect
a governor from California,

1261
00:59:17,625 --> 00:59:20,583
who was not
sophisticated about
international relations,

1262
00:59:20,667 --> 00:59:22,041
to be elected.

1263
00:59:22,125 --> 00:59:24,667
(patriotic music playing)

1264
00:59:24,750 --> 00:59:27,875
Roy predicted that
he would be elected
well before he was.

1265
00:59:27,959 --> 00:59:29,375
(crowd cheering)

1266
00:59:29,458 --> 00:59:31,500
Roy ushered in that
Republican revolution.

1267
00:59:31,583 --> 00:59:34,542
(upbeat music playing)

1268
00:59:34,625 --> 00:59:37,792
(crowd cheering)

1269
00:59:39,667 --> 00:59:41,458
Cohn:
Since the time
Governor Reagan

1270
00:59:41,542 --> 00:59:43,417
in New York made
his announcement

1271
00:59:43,500 --> 00:59:44,709
until the election,

1272
00:59:44,792 --> 00:59:46,458
I don't know where
I got the time from

1273
00:59:46,542 --> 00:59:48,667
because my partner,
Tom Bolan, was--

1274
00:59:48,750 --> 00:59:51,417
had the main role
as finance director

1275
00:59:51,500 --> 00:59:53,083
for Governor Reagan
in New York,

1276
00:59:53,166 --> 00:59:55,333
but I had to do an awful lot

1277
00:59:55,417 --> 00:59:58,583
and through
all hours of the night.

1278
00:59:58,667 --> 01:00:01,208
Marcus:
Roger Stone was a young
campaign person

1279
01:00:01,291 --> 01:00:02,500
who was
working in New York,

1280
01:00:02,583 --> 01:00:03,834
and he met Roy because

1281
01:00:03,917 --> 01:00:05,291
Roy hosted him at parties,

1282
01:00:05,375 --> 01:00:08,000
actually introduced
him to Donald Trump.

1283
01:00:08,083 --> 01:00:10,250
And Roger Stone
got a lot of money,

1284
01:00:10,333 --> 01:00:12,333
so that when
Reagan was elected,

1285
01:00:12,417 --> 01:00:14,750
Roger Stone and Ed Meese
and people around him

1286
01:00:14,834 --> 01:00:16,291
felt that they owed a lot to Roy

1287
01:00:16,375 --> 01:00:18,417
for making connections
and getting him money.

1288
01:00:18,500 --> 01:00:20,750
Ronald Reagan also helped
his fellow Republicans

1289
01:00:20,834 --> 01:00:23,417
make a major change in
the philosophy of Congress.

1290
01:00:23,500 --> 01:00:25,583
It has become much
more conservative

1291
01:00:25,667 --> 01:00:27,917
in the Senate and in the House.

1292
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:31,291
John LeBoutillier:
1980, it was a big
Republican year.

1293
01:00:31,375 --> 01:00:33,583
And I got elected
to Congress

1294
01:00:33,667 --> 01:00:35,083
as the youngest
member of Congress.

1295
01:00:35,583 --> 01:00:38,834
I just turned 27 during
the campaign, so I was...

1296
01:00:39,417 --> 01:00:40,792
young.

1297
01:00:40,875 --> 01:00:44,959
And within a week or two
after I got elected,

1298
01:00:45,041 --> 01:00:47,792
I get a phone call
and a letter

1299
01:00:47,875 --> 01:00:49,458
asking a favor

1300
01:00:49,542 --> 01:00:53,125
from this law firm
that was Tom Bolan

1301
01:00:53,208 --> 01:00:55,583
and his law partner,
Roy Cohn.

1302
01:00:56,667 --> 01:00:58,417
They wanted their friends

1303
01:00:58,500 --> 01:01:01,208
to get jobs from
the Reagan White House.

1304
01:01:01,291 --> 01:01:04,083
They asked me to
support a candidate

1305
01:01:04,166 --> 01:01:06,125
for a federal judgeship.

1306
01:01:06,208 --> 01:01:08,333
And along the way, they asked
me to write this letter,

1307
01:01:08,417 --> 01:01:11,000
and they keep pushing it,
which I ended up writing.

1308
01:01:11,083 --> 01:01:14,333
It might've been
the first letter of
recommendation I wrote,

1309
01:01:14,417 --> 01:01:17,500
and it was for Maryanne Trump,

1310
01:01:17,583 --> 01:01:19,375
Donald Trump's older sister,

1311
01:01:19,458 --> 01:01:20,959
to be a federal judge.

1312
01:01:21,500 --> 01:01:23,834
I've never been asked to
do such a thing in my life!

1313
01:01:23,917 --> 01:01:26,834
A year earlier, I'm in school!

1314
01:01:26,917 --> 01:01:30,250
And in the new
administration,
the next year,

1315
01:01:30,333 --> 01:01:33,458
President Reagan did appoint
her to the federal bench.

1316
01:01:33,542 --> 01:01:34,959
♪ ♪

1317
01:01:35,041 --> 01:01:38,125
Right from the get-go,
they were very influential

1318
01:01:38,208 --> 01:01:40,875
with the President
of the United States.

1319
01:01:48,417 --> 01:01:52,709
I became very involved
in the issue of American
prisoners of war

1320
01:01:52,792 --> 01:01:55,792
that were left behind
during the Vietnam War.

1321
01:01:55,875 --> 01:01:59,166
I am now on the
Foreign Affairs Committee
in the House,

1322
01:01:59,250 --> 01:02:02,583
and I have a Laotian pilot

1323
01:02:02,667 --> 01:02:05,542
that I'm hiring
to go back to Laos

1324
01:02:05,625 --> 01:02:07,542
to look around
for information.

1325
01:02:07,625 --> 01:02:12,166
But we needed to accelerate
his citizenship,

1326
01:02:12,250 --> 01:02:14,625
so I asked Roy Cohn.

1327
01:02:15,625 --> 01:02:17,041
And to this day,

1328
01:02:17,125 --> 01:02:20,667
it is the single most
impressive use of power

1329
01:02:20,750 --> 01:02:22,583
that I've seen in my life.

1330
01:02:23,667 --> 01:02:25,208
He said,
"I've got it all set.

1331
01:02:25,291 --> 01:02:26,542
"Here's what you're gonna do.

1332
01:02:26,625 --> 01:02:28,208
"You're gonna go
to Los Angeles.

1333
01:02:28,291 --> 01:02:31,208
"You're gonna go to
the federal courthouse.

1334
01:02:31,291 --> 01:02:33,041
"You're gonna go
to some courtroom,

1335
01:02:33,125 --> 01:02:36,792
"and there is
a Judge Roy Carstairs

1336
01:02:36,875 --> 01:02:39,917
"will be running
a federal trial.

1337
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:42,917
"And you will wait in the back
of the courtroom, standing.

1338
01:02:43,500 --> 01:02:46,542
"Judge Carstairs
will see you there,

1339
01:02:46,625 --> 01:02:50,000
"he will call a recess
of the trial,

1340
01:02:50,083 --> 01:02:52,291
"and he will swear
your Laotian in

1341
01:02:52,375 --> 01:02:55,041
as an American citizen
right on the spot."

1342
01:02:55,500 --> 01:02:58,834
That is how (chuckles)
to wield power.

1343
01:03:04,542 --> 01:03:07,417
Dershowitz:
Before I met him,
I knew him as a fixer.

1344
01:03:07,500 --> 01:03:09,250
A guy who got things done.

1345
01:03:09,333 --> 01:03:11,250
It wasn't what you knew.
It was who you knew.

1346
01:03:11,333 --> 01:03:13,375
(crowd chatter)

1347
01:03:13,458 --> 01:03:16,125
The only occasion I ever
had to work with him

1348
01:03:16,208 --> 01:03:19,083
was during
the Claus Von Bulow case.

1349
01:03:19,166 --> 01:03:22,000
I was handling
the criminal aspect of it.

1350
01:03:22,083 --> 01:03:24,333
He was handling the estate.

1351
01:03:24,417 --> 01:03:26,625
I was, I wouldn't
say charmed by him,

1352
01:03:26,709 --> 01:03:29,709
but I was pleasantly
surprised by the fact

1353
01:03:29,792 --> 01:03:33,792
that he wasn't the ogre
that I had been told he was.

1354
01:03:33,875 --> 01:03:37,792
And he was determined to
make me like him some how.

1355
01:03:37,875 --> 01:03:39,583
♪ ♪

1356
01:03:39,667 --> 01:03:41,834
He emphasized that
he really admired me

1357
01:03:41,917 --> 01:03:44,458
because of my
support for Israel,

1358
01:03:44,542 --> 01:03:47,834
my support for Jewish values.

1359
01:03:48,542 --> 01:03:50,375
He tried to persuade me

1360
01:03:50,458 --> 01:03:53,125
that he grew up at a time

1361
01:03:53,208 --> 01:03:56,625
when Communism was
associated with being Jewish.

1362
01:03:56,709 --> 01:03:58,125
Not only the Rosenbergs.

1363
01:03:58,208 --> 01:04:00,750
Klaus Fuchs and, you know,
so many of the other people

1364
01:04:00,834 --> 01:04:04,041
who were alleged
to be spies were Jews,

1365
01:04:04,125 --> 01:04:08,166
and so many of the leaders
of Communist parties
were Jews.

1366
01:04:08,250 --> 01:04:09,625
And he thought it
was terrible

1367
01:04:09,709 --> 01:04:12,542
that Jews were being
associated with Communism.

1368
01:04:12,625 --> 01:04:15,875
And he made a decision to
stand up against Communism

1369
01:04:15,959 --> 01:04:19,542
as a visible Jew,
with a name like Cohn,

1370
01:04:19,625 --> 01:04:21,667
that can be seen
around the world

1371
01:04:21,750 --> 01:04:24,667
as Jews standing up
against Communism.

1372
01:04:24,750 --> 01:04:27,500
And he went into
great detail with me

1373
01:04:27,583 --> 01:04:29,792
about the Rosenberg case.

1374
01:04:29,875 --> 01:04:32,125
♪ ♪

1375
01:04:32,208 --> 01:04:35,083
And the story he told is
that they knew for certain

1376
01:04:35,166 --> 01:04:38,208
that Julius Rosenberg
was a spy

1377
01:04:38,291 --> 01:04:41,625
because they had wiretaps
from some embassy

1378
01:04:41,709 --> 01:04:43,041
that they couldn't disclose

1379
01:04:43,125 --> 01:04:45,375
'cause they're not supposed
to be taping embassies,

1380
01:04:45,458 --> 01:04:48,792
but they were 100% confident.

1381
01:04:48,875 --> 01:04:51,041
But they couldn't
use the evidence.

1382
01:04:51,125 --> 01:04:54,166
And so, they "enhanced"
the evidence.

1383
01:04:54,250 --> 01:04:56,375
They "improved" the evidence.

1384
01:04:56,458 --> 01:05:00,542
And he thought it was
a morally just thing to do.

1385
01:05:00,625 --> 01:05:02,625
Bob Simon:
The star witness
for the prosecution

1386
01:05:02,709 --> 01:05:04,500
was David Greenglass.

1387
01:05:04,583 --> 01:05:07,041
He now says this man
made him do it.

1388
01:05:07,125 --> 01:05:10,917
And did Cohn encourage
you to testify that you...

1389
01:05:11,625 --> 01:05:13,917
saw Ethel typing up the notes?

1390
01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:15,083
Of course he did.

1391
01:05:15,166 --> 01:05:16,542
Did you realize at the time

1392
01:05:16,625 --> 01:05:19,291
or when you were testifying,
the importance of this...

1393
01:05:19,375 --> 01:05:21,041
the evidence you were providing?

1394
01:05:21,125 --> 01:05:23,750
I had no idea it was
important at all.

1395
01:05:23,834 --> 01:05:25,542
♪ ♪

1396
01:05:25,625 --> 01:05:28,125
Dershowitz:
He also said that he did have

1397
01:05:28,208 --> 01:05:31,917
many ex-party conversations
with Judge Irving Kaufman,

1398
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:33,625
that they talked
on the phone.

1399
01:05:33,709 --> 01:05:37,458
They had agreements
about how to handle
certain pieces of evidence.

1400
01:05:38,500 --> 01:05:40,500
He never denied

1401
01:05:40,583 --> 01:05:42,709
that the case was fixed.

1402
01:05:42,792 --> 01:05:47,959
He used the term,
"We framed guilty people.

1403
01:05:48,041 --> 01:05:50,834
"We framed guilty people.

1404
01:05:52,125 --> 01:05:54,834
"We tampered
with the evidence

1405
01:05:54,917 --> 01:05:57,917
"in order to persuade

1406
01:05:58,000 --> 01:05:59,333
"the judge and the jury

1407
01:05:59,417 --> 01:06:03,041
that these guilty people
were, in fact, guilty."

1408
01:06:05,083 --> 01:06:10,166
Michael Meeropol:
In 1995, the CIA released
the Venona transcription

1409
01:06:10,250 --> 01:06:13,709
that attempted to prove that
the government was right

1410
01:06:13,792 --> 01:06:17,458
that Julius Rosenberg,
my father, was a spy.

1411
01:06:17,542 --> 01:06:19,792
Well, the media's reaction
was,

1412
01:06:19,875 --> 01:06:22,583
"The Rosenbergs are guilty."

1413
01:06:22,667 --> 01:06:25,125
We were skeptical of it.
But, of course,

1414
01:06:25,208 --> 01:06:28,875
I had to contemplate
what would it mean
if it were true.

1415
01:06:30,625 --> 01:06:34,333
If we agreed
that this stuff was real,

1416
01:06:34,417 --> 01:06:37,208
half of our case was
already made for us.

1417
01:06:37,291 --> 01:06:41,375
It was clear that
your grandmother
was not a spy.

1418
01:06:41,458 --> 01:06:43,000
She never got a codename!

1419
01:06:43,083 --> 01:06:46,250
♪ ♪

1420
01:06:48,375 --> 01:06:50,500
Dershowitz:
If the whole truth
had come out,

1421
01:06:50,834 --> 01:06:52,667
we would have known at the time

1422
01:06:52,750 --> 01:06:56,500
that Julius was guilty of being
a spy for the Soviet Union,

1423
01:06:56,583 --> 01:06:59,375
but that the information
he provided them

1424
01:06:59,458 --> 01:07:03,166
was not nearly as
important or critical

1425
01:07:03,250 --> 01:07:05,875
as the way the government
made it sound.

1426
01:07:06,375 --> 01:07:10,291
He was not the man
who "gave" the atomic bomb

1427
01:07:10,375 --> 01:07:13,250
to the Soviet Union.

1428
01:07:13,333 --> 01:07:15,250
The other thing
we would know for sure

1429
01:07:15,333 --> 01:07:17,834
is that Ethel Rosenberg
was not guilty

1430
01:07:17,917 --> 01:07:20,583
of the crime for
which she was charged.

1431
01:07:20,667 --> 01:07:23,250
But there was a plot afoot.

1432
01:07:24,375 --> 01:07:25,834
And the plot was,

1433
01:07:25,917 --> 01:07:28,208
from the highest
levels of government,

1434
01:07:28,291 --> 01:07:30,875
to frame Ethel Rosenberg

1435
01:07:30,959 --> 01:07:34,375
in order to get Julius
to wanna save her life

1436
01:07:34,458 --> 01:07:40,125
by ratting out the people
who he was in contact with.

1437
01:07:40,208 --> 01:07:44,041
I don't think we've ever had
a miscarriage of justice

1438
01:07:44,125 --> 01:07:47,625
that parallels the Rosenberg
case in my lifetime.

1439
01:07:48,500 --> 01:07:51,834
♪ ♪

1440
01:07:51,917 --> 01:07:53,917
Ivy Meeropol:
You told me before
why you never wanted

1441
01:07:54,000 --> 01:07:56,375
-to go to the grave.
-Michael Meeropol: Yeah,
'cause I didn't wanna

1442
01:07:56,458 --> 01:07:58,041
put myself
through the anguish

1443
01:07:58,125 --> 01:07:59,875
of actually seeing the grave.

1444
01:07:59,959 --> 01:08:03,709
(inaudible)

1445
01:08:03,792 --> 01:08:07,625
Most of the reopening effort
was highly intellectual.

1446
01:08:07,709 --> 01:08:10,083
It involved arguing,
articulating...

1447
01:08:10,166 --> 01:08:11,583
In the case of my parents...

1448
01:08:11,667 --> 01:08:15,875
But there is a very,
very personal side to this.

1449
01:08:19,000 --> 01:08:22,291
Remember, the family
was broken up
for a good two years.

1450
01:08:24,709 --> 01:08:29,291
The period of time
when we visited them
was so amazing.

1451
01:08:29,375 --> 01:08:30,750
Hugging them
and kissing them.

1452
01:08:30,834 --> 01:08:32,542
We played, we sang.

1453
01:08:33,959 --> 01:08:35,917
There was no pain
because it was always,

1454
01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:39,000
"We've still got hope,
and, you know,
see you next time."

1455
01:08:41,834 --> 01:08:43,750
The reason the last
visit was so terrible

1456
01:08:43,834 --> 01:08:46,917
was that there
was no next time.

1457
01:08:47,000 --> 01:08:51,333
I was wailing,
"One more day to live,
one more day to live."

1458
01:08:51,417 --> 01:08:53,875
Then they kissed us
and left.

1459
01:08:53,959 --> 01:08:57,041
♪ ♪

1460
01:08:58,709 --> 01:09:00,834
(rumbling)

1461
01:09:12,542 --> 01:09:16,417
The last place I saw your
grandparents was Sing Sing.

1462
01:09:19,667 --> 01:09:25,166
Going to Sing Sing
is a way of connecting
to that 10-year-old.

1463
01:09:28,083 --> 01:09:30,333
Memory is important.

1464
01:09:34,625 --> 01:09:37,041
Reminding myself
of it is important.

1465
01:09:37,959 --> 01:09:40,625
There were times
in my teen years,

1466
01:09:40,709 --> 01:09:43,000
and in my 20s where...

1467
01:09:43,542 --> 01:09:46,458
the press of
everyday life would,

1468
01:09:46,542 --> 01:09:49,792
would sort of, take charge,
but I always...

1469
01:09:50,417 --> 01:09:54,125
I always reminded myself
where I came from.

1470
01:09:56,583 --> 01:10:00,041
♪ ♪

1471
01:10:27,500 --> 01:10:30,291
Dershowitz:
Roy Cohn represents
a type of person

1472
01:10:30,792 --> 01:10:32,792
who recurs throughout history.

1473
01:10:32,875 --> 01:10:35,208
Uh, we know
"the" Roy Cohn,

1474
01:10:35,291 --> 01:10:39,000
but every era has a Roy Cohn,
an opportunist,

1475
01:10:39,083 --> 01:10:42,875
somebody who will
stretch the law and ethics

1476
01:10:42,959 --> 01:10:47,917
to make the ends
justify the means.

1477
01:10:48,000 --> 01:10:49,709
♪ ♪

1478
01:10:49,792 --> 01:10:53,083
Cohn:
This picture of Donald
and me hangs in my office.

1479
01:10:53,750 --> 01:10:57,083
He says, "Roy is
my greatest friend."

1480
01:10:57,166 --> 01:10:59,250
(car starts)

1481
01:10:59,333 --> 01:11:00,750
The man is, as I say,

1482
01:11:00,834 --> 01:11:03,208
the closest thing to a genius
I've ever met in my life.

1483
01:11:05,166 --> 01:11:06,750
When he sees an opportunity,

1484
01:11:06,834 --> 01:11:09,166
he's always there
to take it.

1485
01:11:09,250 --> 01:11:10,875
And I have a feeling
someday,

1486
01:11:10,959 --> 01:11:12,917
not too far distant future,

1487
01:11:13,000 --> 01:11:14,250
you're gonna see Donald Trump

1488
01:11:14,333 --> 01:11:17,000
in other parts of
the country as well.

1489
01:11:18,834 --> 01:11:20,959
Romano:
In the early '80s,

1490
01:11:21,041 --> 01:11:22,667
I was living in Washington,

1491
01:11:22,750 --> 01:11:26,000
and I had just joined
"The Washington Post."

1492
01:11:26,959 --> 01:11:29,959
After 30 years,
the Republicans were hot again.

1493
01:11:30,041 --> 01:11:32,083
And so, all of us,
as young reporters,

1494
01:11:32,166 --> 01:11:35,333
were pursuing all the new,
young operatives.

1495
01:11:35,417 --> 01:11:39,959
Among them was Roger Stone
and Paul Manafort.

1496
01:11:40,041 --> 01:11:42,291
And somewhere in there,
Roger Stone,

1497
01:11:42,375 --> 01:11:44,375
who I had cultivated
as a source,

1498
01:11:44,458 --> 01:11:47,500
said, "You need to meet
my friend, Roy Cohn."

1499
01:11:47,583 --> 01:11:49,792
Roy was very magnetic,

1500
01:11:49,875 --> 01:11:52,083
and he knew how to
cultivate the media.

1501
01:11:52,166 --> 01:11:53,625
I mean, I used
to see him at parties,

1502
01:11:53,709 --> 01:11:54,792
and, you know, he'd be in town.

1503
01:11:54,875 --> 01:11:56,291
He'd always stay
at the Madison,

1504
01:11:56,375 --> 01:11:58,083
which is across from
"The Post."

1505
01:11:58,166 --> 01:11:59,625
And he'd say,
"I'm over here at the bar.

1506
01:11:59,709 --> 01:12:01,125
Come on over
and have a drink."

1507
01:12:01,208 --> 01:12:02,792
And he would say, "I've
got a good story for you,"

1508
01:12:02,875 --> 01:12:05,000
but it always served
his purposes, too.

1509
01:12:05,083 --> 01:12:08,125
Which is how I came to do
a profile on Donald Trump.

1510
01:12:08,208 --> 01:12:10,125
♪ ♪

1511
01:12:10,208 --> 01:12:12,125
Throughout the whole
two hours I'm with him,

1512
01:12:12,208 --> 01:12:14,750
all Trump says is, "Either
you got it or you don't,"

1513
01:12:14,834 --> 01:12:16,291
about everything.

1514
01:12:16,375 --> 01:12:18,667
"Either you can get a table
at a restaurant or you can't.

1515
01:12:18,750 --> 01:12:20,458
Either you can do this
or you can't."

1516
01:12:21,583 --> 01:12:23,792
So, during the course
of this, he says,

1517
01:12:23,875 --> 01:12:26,250
"I could be the nuclear
arms negotiator."

1518
01:12:26,333 --> 01:12:28,375
He said, "I could know
everything there is to know

1519
01:12:28,458 --> 01:12:32,250
about missiles
and nuclear arms
in an hour and a half."

1520
01:12:34,750 --> 01:12:36,792
And he said, "You know,
Roy really wants me
to do this.

1521
01:12:36,875 --> 01:12:41,375
Roy thinks that I
would be a really good
nuclear arms negotiator."

1522
01:12:41,458 --> 01:12:44,959
And during this period,
he apparently sends word back

1523
01:12:45,041 --> 01:12:47,166
to one of George Bush's
operatives

1524
01:12:47,250 --> 01:12:49,959
that he could be working
in the administration.

1525
01:12:50,041 --> 01:12:52,834
So, he was starting to feel
pretty heady about himself

1526
01:12:52,917 --> 01:12:55,875
and what he could be
doing in government.

1527
01:12:55,959 --> 01:12:58,625
Male Interviewer:
Would you like
to be in a position

1528
01:12:58,709 --> 01:13:00,750
of negotiating disarmament?

1529
01:13:00,834 --> 01:13:02,667
Is that really
what's in your head?

1530
01:13:02,750 --> 01:13:05,709
I don't know who's negotiating
for us, who had in the past.

1531
01:13:05,792 --> 01:13:08,000
I used to watch,
under Jimmy Carter's regime,

1532
01:13:08,083 --> 01:13:10,000
I used to watch
people going over

1533
01:13:10,083 --> 01:13:11,417
and looking at these Russians.

1534
01:13:11,500 --> 01:13:12,792
And I could look
at the Russians,

1535
01:13:12,875 --> 01:13:14,625
and I could look at
these people on our side,

1536
01:13:14,709 --> 01:13:16,041
and I could say
there's no chance.

1537
01:13:16,125 --> 01:13:17,542
That's like the
Pittsburgh Steelers

1538
01:13:17,625 --> 01:13:19,500
playing my high school
football team.

1539
01:13:20,959 --> 01:13:23,667
Female Interviewer:
Is it arrogant
of Donald Trump

1540
01:13:23,750 --> 01:13:27,166
to even think about
negotiating a treaty
with the Russians?

1541
01:13:27,250 --> 01:13:28,583
It's not arrogance.

1542
01:13:28,667 --> 01:13:30,542
It's the fact that he sees

1543
01:13:30,625 --> 01:13:32,709
he has a talent
in a certain area.

1544
01:13:32,792 --> 01:13:36,625
Look, his next stop might
very well be Moscow.

1545
01:13:36,709 --> 01:13:40,083
(indistinct chatter)

1546
01:13:40,166 --> 01:13:44,417
Romano:
I think what Roy Cohn
saw in Donald Trump

1547
01:13:44,500 --> 01:13:47,041
was sort of an
unpolished stone.

1548
01:13:47,834 --> 01:13:51,250
He had some smarts,
he had ambition,
and he had money.

1549
01:13:51,333 --> 01:13:54,750
And he had nerve.
He wanted to shake things up.

1550
01:13:54,834 --> 01:13:58,667
Roy is building this foothold
in Washington, DC,

1551
01:13:58,750 --> 01:14:00,875
and Don wants a piece of this

1552
01:14:00,959 --> 01:14:03,000
and Roy wants him to
have a piece of it.

1553
01:14:03,083 --> 01:14:06,000
♪ ♪

1554
01:14:06,083 --> 01:14:09,083
(indistinct chatter)

1555
01:14:09,166 --> 01:14:12,291
(inaudible)

1556
01:14:15,875 --> 01:14:18,625
Manso:
There's this
wonderful photograph

1557
01:14:18,709 --> 01:14:20,667
of Roy and his...

1558
01:14:20,750 --> 01:14:23,125
arm candy lover,
Peter Fraser,

1559
01:14:23,208 --> 01:14:25,917
at the White House
on a receiving line.

1560
01:14:26,000 --> 01:14:28,500
And there's Nancy
and there's Ron.

1561
01:14:28,583 --> 01:14:32,500
He's introducing his
beautiful for-hire boyfriend,

1562
01:14:32,583 --> 01:14:35,291
and both he
and his lover, Peter,

1563
01:14:35,375 --> 01:14:36,959
are being received like royalty.

1564
01:14:37,041 --> 01:14:38,959
Like they're very
important people.

1565
01:14:39,041 --> 01:14:42,542
♪ ♪

1566
01:14:43,875 --> 01:14:46,500
In the early
through mid '80s,

1567
01:14:46,583 --> 01:14:51,667
Peter Fraser was
Roy's squeeze of choice.

1568
01:14:51,750 --> 01:14:54,542
Peter Fraser
was tall, blonde,

1569
01:14:54,625 --> 01:14:56,917
athletic-looking
New Zealander.

1570
01:14:58,792 --> 01:15:04,125
Roy got him made
the Aramis Man of the Year.

1571
01:15:04,208 --> 01:15:06,583
Aramis is the men's division

1572
01:15:06,667 --> 01:15:08,750
of Estée Lauder Cosmetics!

1573
01:15:08,834 --> 01:15:12,667
Estée and Joe Lauder
were Roy's 20-, 30-year-old,

1574
01:15:12,750 --> 01:15:15,875
right-wing, multi-millionaire
friends and clients.

1575
01:15:17,875 --> 01:15:20,834
Peter Fraser was
the kept partner,

1576
01:15:20,917 --> 01:15:24,959
and actually served
a function in the Roy orbit.

1577
01:15:26,250 --> 01:15:29,166
Here is a letter
dated February 1, '85,

1578
01:15:29,250 --> 01:15:31,959
on Saxe, Bacon, Bolan
letterhead.

1579
01:15:33,875 --> 01:15:35,291
"To Whom It May Concern,

1580
01:15:35,375 --> 01:15:37,834
"This is to confirm that
Peter Fraser's employed

1581
01:15:37,917 --> 01:15:40,250
"by the law firm
Saxe, Bacon, Bolan,

1582
01:15:40,333 --> 01:15:43,000
"and he resides at
the company house

1583
01:15:43,083 --> 01:15:45,583
"in Provincetown, Massachusetts.

1584
01:15:45,750 --> 01:15:48,458
Yours truly, Roy M. Cohn."

1585
01:15:49,083 --> 01:15:50,458
Wild.

1586
01:15:51,208 --> 01:15:53,709
"Pay to the order
of Peter Fraser."

1587
01:15:53,792 --> 01:15:56,166
$5,284.

1588
01:15:56,792 --> 01:15:59,083
See now, here are
credit card receipts

1589
01:15:59,166 --> 01:16:01,458
in Peter Fraser's name.

1590
01:16:01,542 --> 01:16:04,750
Now, Roy could not
use credit cards.

1591
01:16:04,834 --> 01:16:08,583
You know, 'cause any purchase
would be trackable,

1592
01:16:08,667 --> 01:16:12,083
and subject to, you know,
IRS scrutiny.

1593
01:16:12,709 --> 01:16:15,834
Who was this? Oh my God,
this is more transfers.

1594
01:16:15,917 --> 01:16:17,041
Holy shit.

1595
01:16:17,125 --> 01:16:21,417
Bank of New Zealand for
$10,012.50.

1596
01:16:21,500 --> 01:16:23,125
On the same day,

1597
01:16:23,208 --> 01:16:26,458
there is another
transfer of $10,000.

1598
01:16:26,542 --> 01:16:28,792
Jesus Christ.

1599
01:16:28,875 --> 01:16:30,625
Deposits, $43,000,

1600
01:16:30,709 --> 01:16:33,750
$50,000, $90,000, $45,000,

1601
01:16:33,834 --> 01:16:35,375
$50,000.

1602
01:16:35,458 --> 01:16:38,166
You know, this is
money laundering.

1603
01:16:38,625 --> 01:16:41,834
You know,
Roy is using Peter as a cut-out.

1604
01:16:42,417 --> 01:16:45,166
You know what a cut-out
is in spy language?

1605
01:16:45,917 --> 01:16:48,709
You're on one side of the fence,
I'm on the other.

1606
01:16:48,792 --> 01:16:50,750
But, I have this guy over here,

1607
01:16:50,834 --> 01:16:52,375
and he gets everything I have,

1608
01:16:52,458 --> 01:16:54,667
even though you're
focusing on me.

1609
01:16:55,333 --> 01:16:57,166
I mean, I don't
know what these...

1610
01:16:57,250 --> 01:17:00,041
you know,
90 and $100,000 balances

1611
01:17:00,125 --> 01:17:02,250
in his accounts represent.

1612
01:17:02,333 --> 01:17:04,291
Where is that money coming from?

1613
01:17:04,375 --> 01:17:05,917
It's coming through Roy,

1614
01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:08,500
but where is that coming from?

1615
01:17:08,583 --> 01:17:10,125
♪ ♪

1616
01:17:10,208 --> 01:17:12,291
Reporter:
Two years ago,
Richard Dupont had this idea.

1617
01:17:12,375 --> 01:17:15,333
He would open a health club
in the West Village for gays.

1618
01:17:15,417 --> 01:17:17,458
He took over an abandoned
six-story warehouse

1619
01:17:17,542 --> 01:17:19,417
on Greenwich Street
near Barrow,

1620
01:17:19,500 --> 01:17:20,709
and spent the next year

1621
01:17:20,792 --> 01:17:23,125
and almost $1 million
renovating it.

1622
01:17:23,667 --> 01:17:25,959
What I think most
people are afraid of

1623
01:17:26,041 --> 01:17:28,041
is the very fact
is they may see

1624
01:17:28,125 --> 01:17:30,834
homosexual people
as real people.

1625
01:17:30,917 --> 01:17:34,792
As people who aren't
deviants and perverts.

1626
01:17:34,875 --> 01:17:38,458
Klotz:
Richard Dupont originally
met Roy in Miami Beach,

1627
01:17:38,542 --> 01:17:42,291
where he turned a trick for
Roy as a gay prostitute.

1628
01:17:42,375 --> 01:17:44,500
Manso:
Richard Dupont
was a grifter,

1629
01:17:44,583 --> 01:17:46,709
a guy who lived on his wits.

1630
01:17:47,208 --> 01:17:50,875
And such people could be
useful to Roy Cohn.

1631
01:17:52,458 --> 01:17:55,625
(Ray Kiley speaking):

1632
01:18:00,166 --> 01:18:02,792
(Dupont speaking):

1633
01:18:19,000 --> 01:18:20,583
Manso:
And the guy decided
to wreck revenge,

1634
01:18:20,667 --> 01:18:23,792
and he got to Roy like
no one else got to Roy ever.

1635
01:18:23,875 --> 01:18:25,583
♪ ♪

1636
01:18:25,667 --> 01:18:27,667
Klotz:
He would call
the airline and say,

1637
01:18:27,750 --> 01:18:30,417
"This is Roy Cohn calling and...

1638
01:18:30,500 --> 01:18:34,125
you know my reservation for
2:00 to Texas? Cancel it."

1639
01:18:34,208 --> 01:18:37,041
So, Roy Cohn would show up
at the airport with his bags,

1640
01:18:37,125 --> 01:18:40,875
and his reservation
had been canceled.  (laughs)

1641
01:18:40,959 --> 01:18:42,917
At the Ford
shareholders meeting,

1642
01:18:43,000 --> 01:18:46,834
a woman came
with a delivery of
flowers for him,

1643
01:18:46,917 --> 01:18:49,875
and the flowers were wilted.

1644
01:18:49,959 --> 01:18:52,375
There was a note with
the flowers saying,

1645
01:18:52,458 --> 01:18:54,792
"Roy Cohn can lick anyone."

1646
01:18:55,458 --> 01:18:58,625
I believe that was
a double entendre.

1647
01:18:59,750 --> 01:19:01,917
Manso:
One morning,
where Roy's office was

1648
01:19:02,000 --> 01:19:05,250
on East 68th Street,
for the whole block,

1649
01:19:05,333 --> 01:19:07,083
every five feet,

1650
01:19:07,166 --> 01:19:09,625
(laughing)
there was a stenciled
message.

1651
01:19:09,709 --> 01:19:11,834
"Roy Cohn is a fag."

1652
01:19:13,667 --> 01:19:16,250
Roy was going crazy.

1653
01:19:16,750 --> 01:19:20,000
I mean, this is the devil
visiting the devil, as it were.

1654
01:19:20,875 --> 01:19:23,208
(phone dialing)

1655
01:19:23,625 --> 01:19:26,834
(Cohn and Dupont on phone):

1656
01:20:15,625 --> 01:20:16,792
(hangs up)

1657
01:20:16,875 --> 01:20:18,625
I'm surprised he
didn't have him killed,

1658
01:20:18,709 --> 01:20:20,875
but maybe it would've
been too obvious.

1659
01:20:20,959 --> 01:20:22,917
He couldn't scare him off.

1660
01:20:23,000 --> 01:20:25,291
And Dupont just kept going.

1661
01:20:25,375 --> 01:20:28,709
(disco music playing)

1662
01:20:28,792 --> 01:20:32,083
(crowd chatter)

1663
01:20:33,625 --> 01:20:36,875
Klotz:
In 1980, on Gay Pride Day,

1664
01:20:36,959 --> 01:20:40,709
there was a publication
of a magazine
called "Now East,"

1665
01:20:40,792 --> 01:20:44,875
which contained
all of Dupont's fantasies
about Roy Cohn.

1666
01:20:44,959 --> 01:20:47,083
♪ ♪

1667
01:20:50,208 --> 01:20:55,500
Manso (on phone):
It's obvious that you
are out to do in Roy.

1668
01:20:55,583 --> 01:20:58,834
-Do you think that
you'll outlast Roy?
-Dupont (on phone): Oh God.

1669
01:20:58,917 --> 01:21:00,959
Oh God, the second issue.

1670
01:21:01,041 --> 01:21:04,166
-Manso: The second issue is
gonna do him in, you think?
-Dupont: And the third issue.

1671
01:21:04,250 --> 01:21:05,333
Manso:
And the third issue?

1672
01:21:05,417 --> 01:21:06,583
There's a third one
coming, too?

1673
01:21:06,667 --> 01:21:08,291
Dupont:
Yes, there'll be every issue.

1674
01:21:08,375 --> 01:21:10,417
Manso:
I mean, how long is this
magazine gonna go on?

1675
01:21:10,500 --> 01:21:12,709
I mean, people eventually may
become bored with Roy Cohn.

1676
01:21:12,792 --> 01:21:15,792
Dupont: I don't know
whether they'll become
bored with Roy Cohn or not.

1677
01:21:15,875 --> 01:21:17,583
I really don't know, Peter.

1678
01:21:19,291 --> 01:21:20,750
Manso:
These were distributed.

1679
01:21:20,834 --> 01:21:22,208
They were left
in restaurants,

1680
01:21:22,291 --> 01:21:24,417
fancy clothing stores,

1681
01:21:24,500 --> 01:21:26,125
gay bars.

1682
01:21:26,959 --> 01:21:28,959
Roy was genuinely agitated,

1683
01:21:29,041 --> 01:21:32,500
and Roy didn't show
anxiety easily.

1684
01:21:33,125 --> 01:21:35,041
"I'm gonna get
that motherfucker.
I'm gonna kill him.

1685
01:21:35,125 --> 01:21:37,458
I'm gonna put him away.
This is gonna end."

1686
01:21:37,542 --> 01:21:38,875
Tonight, we have a story
about a man

1687
01:21:38,959 --> 01:21:40,542
who is not charged
with a violent crime,

1688
01:21:40,625 --> 01:21:42,333
but he is the object
of a lot of attention

1689
01:21:42,417 --> 01:21:43,875
from the Manhattan
district attorney.

1690
01:21:43,959 --> 01:21:46,000
John Miller:
This is Richard Dupont.

1691
01:21:46,083 --> 01:21:50,041
He was arrested in,
what his lawyer described
as, a pre-dawn raid

1692
01:21:50,125 --> 01:21:53,792
in which four detectives
came crashing into
his apartment.

1693
01:21:53,875 --> 01:21:56,834
I received information
from my client

1694
01:21:56,917 --> 01:21:58,959
that he had learned

1695
01:21:59,041 --> 01:22:01,041
from associates of Mr. Cohn

1696
01:22:01,125 --> 01:22:05,083
that he was to be
indicted on Friday.

1697
01:22:05,166 --> 01:22:08,834
Klotz:
"Were we here because
of 'Now East'? Baloney.

1698
01:22:08,917 --> 01:22:11,625
"We're here because
Richard had the temerity

1699
01:22:11,709 --> 01:22:15,458
to ignore that warning
and mess with Roy Cohn."

1700
01:22:16,458 --> 01:22:19,625
(Dupont speaking):

1701
01:22:26,000 --> 01:22:27,333
♪ ♪

1702
01:22:27,417 --> 01:22:29,750
Klotz:
He was acquitted
the first two counts,

1703
01:22:29,834 --> 01:22:32,583
but he was convicted of
four or five misdemeanors.

1704
01:22:32,667 --> 01:22:35,917
Misdemeanor clients
don't go to penitentiaries.

1705
01:22:36,000 --> 01:22:37,875
And I felt at the time,

1706
01:22:37,959 --> 01:22:40,083
given who he was dealing with,

1707
01:22:40,166 --> 01:22:42,083
uh, the, uh...

1708
01:22:42,166 --> 01:22:44,250
virtual member of
organized crime,

1709
01:22:44,333 --> 01:22:45,875
or the attorney Roy Cohn,

1710
01:22:45,959 --> 01:22:48,333
that Richard wouldn't have
lasted in a penitentiary.

1711
01:22:48,417 --> 01:22:50,083
And Richard Dupont,
as I recall,

1712
01:22:50,166 --> 01:22:52,709
served 18 months
in state prison.

1713
01:22:52,792 --> 01:22:54,291
For fuckin' with Roy Cohn!

1714
01:22:54,375 --> 01:22:57,291
Don't mess with Roy Cohn!
Moral of the story!

1715
01:22:57,375 --> 01:23:00,458
-(whistle blowing)
-(crowd chatter)

1716
01:23:00,542 --> 01:23:02,875
(clapping)

1717
01:23:04,709 --> 01:23:08,125
(crowd chanting)

1718
01:23:08,208 --> 01:23:10,959
Ethan Geto:
In the '80s, you could be
fired as a schoolteacher

1719
01:23:11,041 --> 01:23:13,625
if you were known
to be gay.

1720
01:23:13,709 --> 01:23:16,250
You could be denied
an apartment.

1721
01:23:16,333 --> 01:23:17,875
That happened constantly

1722
01:23:17,959 --> 01:23:20,250
in a liberal bastion
like New York City.

1723
01:23:21,041 --> 01:23:23,458
You could be denied service

1724
01:23:23,542 --> 01:23:26,333
in a restaurant or a bar!

1725
01:23:26,417 --> 01:23:27,583
You had no recourse.

1726
01:23:27,667 --> 01:23:30,000
-(protesters chanting)
-For 15 years,

1727
01:23:30,083 --> 01:23:33,792
the Gay Rights Bill
came up for a vote
and it was voted down.

1728
01:23:33,875 --> 01:23:35,750
Cohn:
My greatest concern in life

1729
01:23:35,834 --> 01:23:37,625
is not about
open restaurants

1730
01:23:37,709 --> 01:23:39,875
or this Gay Rights Bill.

1731
01:23:39,959 --> 01:23:41,917
I think if you're
a man about things

1732
01:23:42,000 --> 01:23:44,792
and you can fight
your own fights,

1733
01:23:44,875 --> 01:23:47,792
things come out okay
in the long run.

1734
01:23:47,875 --> 01:23:50,041
Geto:
Roy Cohn was very involved

1735
01:23:50,125 --> 01:23:52,291
with politics
in New York City.

1736
01:23:52,375 --> 01:23:53,959
He was a lobbyist
and spokesperson

1737
01:23:54,041 --> 01:23:55,792
for the Archdiocese of New York,

1738
01:23:55,875 --> 01:23:57,291
which, in those years,

1739
01:23:57,375 --> 01:24:00,083
was very, very
powerful politically

1740
01:24:00,166 --> 01:24:02,250
because the Cardinal
of New York

1741
01:24:02,333 --> 01:24:05,000
had enormous control
and veto power

1742
01:24:05,083 --> 01:24:07,291
over legislation
in the City Council.

1743
01:24:08,583 --> 01:24:11,125
Roy Cohn started
making public comments.

1744
01:24:11,208 --> 01:24:14,250
...cannot be done, and the proof
is not in what we say,

1745
01:24:14,333 --> 01:24:15,625
but in the city...

1746
01:24:15,709 --> 01:24:17,959
First of all, I don't like
any of these rights bills.

1747
01:24:18,041 --> 01:24:19,250
Women's rights bill,

1748
01:24:19,333 --> 01:24:21,959
such as was defeated
in New York, very properly.

1749
01:24:22,041 --> 01:24:23,208
I don't like that.

1750
01:24:23,291 --> 01:24:25,083
If the Gay Rights Bill
goes to a referendum,

1751
01:24:25,166 --> 01:24:26,959
I think the people
will defeat that, too.

1752
01:24:27,041 --> 01:24:29,208
I think there are
features of that bill

1753
01:24:29,291 --> 01:24:33,041
that constitutes a clear
and present danger

1754
01:24:33,125 --> 01:24:36,583
to the upbringing of
children and to family life,

1755
01:24:36,667 --> 01:24:39,834
and I don't think it's
a cut-and-dried issue at all.

1756
01:24:39,917 --> 01:24:42,083
♪ ♪

1757
01:24:42,166 --> 01:24:45,792
Geto:
Taking a very public,
hostile stance to gay people

1758
01:24:45,875 --> 01:24:49,291
made everybody
who wasn't in the know feel,

1759
01:24:49,375 --> 01:24:51,125
"Of course, there's a rumor

1760
01:24:51,208 --> 01:24:55,041
that Roy Cohn is a homosexual,
but that's ridiculous!"

1761
01:24:55,125 --> 01:24:58,166
The other thing was
the Catholic Church,

1762
01:24:58,250 --> 01:25:00,625
and they had
a similar problem.

1763
01:25:02,625 --> 01:25:04,083
Cardinal Spellman
was thought,

1764
01:25:04,166 --> 01:25:07,083
by many people,
to be gay.

1765
01:25:07,166 --> 01:25:10,417
He was a very close social
friend of Roy Cohn's,

1766
01:25:10,500 --> 01:25:13,625
and he was very,
very reactionary.

1767
01:25:14,000 --> 01:25:18,291
That's the environment
that Roy Cohn reinforced

1768
01:25:18,375 --> 01:25:21,375
and pushed
and supported in a way

1769
01:25:21,458 --> 01:25:24,542
that oppressed
millions of people.

1770
01:25:24,625 --> 01:25:27,375
To know that this man

1771
01:25:27,458 --> 01:25:31,417
was actively gay
in his personal life

1772
01:25:31,500 --> 01:25:35,083
and his social life
and his sex life and so on.

1773
01:25:35,166 --> 01:25:38,792
Again, I say
the ninth circle of Hell

1774
01:25:38,875 --> 01:25:42,208
is reserved for hypocrites.

1775
01:25:42,417 --> 01:25:43,625
You feel pretty good.

1776
01:25:43,709 --> 01:25:45,917
-I feel great.
-Why?

1777
01:25:46,000 --> 01:25:48,125
I mean, you were at death's door

1778
01:25:48,208 --> 01:25:49,709
six months ago,
three months ago.

1779
01:25:49,792 --> 01:25:51,959
I was shaving one morning,
and I had a...

1780
01:25:52,041 --> 01:25:53,709
I felt a little bump.

1781
01:25:53,792 --> 01:25:56,333
So I called the doctor,
he said come in.

1782
01:25:56,417 --> 01:25:59,959
And they did a biopsy,
and they found
I had liver cancer,

1783
01:26:00,041 --> 01:26:03,375
uh, and they found that--
which spreads in...

1784
01:26:04,542 --> 01:26:06,166
strange directions,

1785
01:26:06,250 --> 01:26:09,458
and I was treated for
three and a half weeks

1786
01:26:09,542 --> 01:26:11,667
at the National
Institute of Health.

1787
01:26:11,750 --> 01:26:13,959
♪ ♪

1788
01:26:14,041 --> 01:26:16,500
Marcus:
He told me he was in
an experimental program

1789
01:26:16,583 --> 01:26:17,875
for liver cancer.

1790
01:26:17,959 --> 01:26:19,792
I think they did
not actually have

1791
01:26:19,875 --> 01:26:21,792
an experimental program
for liver cancer.

1792
01:26:21,875 --> 01:26:23,625
It was trying AZT
and other drugs for AIDS.

1793
01:26:23,709 --> 01:26:26,250
Health officials will announce
today whether an anti-AIDS drug

1794
01:26:26,333 --> 01:26:29,625
is safe enough for widespread
use against the disease.

1795
01:26:29,709 --> 01:26:31,875
The drug AZT has been
tested for more than a year

1796
01:26:31,959 --> 01:26:34,792
on 140 AIDS patients
around the country.

1797
01:26:34,875 --> 01:26:36,750
While AZT does not
cure the disease,

1798
01:26:36,834 --> 01:26:39,166
it does reduce some
of its symptoms.

1799
01:26:39,250 --> 01:26:41,291
Did you get that radical
treatment at NIH

1800
01:26:41,375 --> 01:26:44,792
-that that Dr. Rosenberg,
I believe, is now doing?
-Cohn: No.

1801
01:26:44,875 --> 01:26:48,542
-You did not undergo that?
-No. I did not undergo that.

1802
01:26:51,250 --> 01:26:53,125
-You scored!
-Impressively.

1803
01:26:53,208 --> 01:26:56,208
There may be 30 people
in the whole country
getting this drug?

1804
01:26:56,291 --> 01:26:57,792
Now, there are 31.

1805
01:26:57,875 --> 01:27:00,750
There are 100,000
people who need it.

1806
01:27:00,834 --> 01:27:03,583
♪ ♪

1807
01:27:03,667 --> 01:27:06,917
-(birds cawing)
-(water lapping)

1808
01:27:09,625 --> 01:27:12,959
Packard:
He spent a lot of time
here when he had AIDS.

1809
01:27:13,041 --> 01:27:15,542
That's when I would
see his poor,

1810
01:27:15,625 --> 01:27:17,125
diminished body

1811
01:27:17,208 --> 01:27:19,458
'cause I lost a lot
of friends, too.

1812
01:27:20,166 --> 01:27:22,750
(inaudible)

1813
01:27:22,834 --> 01:27:24,417
Waters:
The town was
so struck by AIDS.

1814
01:27:24,500 --> 01:27:27,625
I mean, three-quarters
of my friends died.

1815
01:27:28,959 --> 01:27:32,458
He was one of-- the whole
town was dying, basically.

1816
01:27:35,125 --> 01:27:37,417
Packard:
I wonder what Roy thought

1817
01:27:37,500 --> 01:27:39,834
about the fact
that he got AIDS.

1818
01:27:40,375 --> 01:27:44,000
And those that escaped it,
and those that didn't,

1819
01:27:44,083 --> 01:27:46,500
but not Roy Cohn.

1820
01:27:46,583 --> 01:27:48,792
He shouldn't have gotten AIDS.

1821
01:27:49,750 --> 01:27:51,500
Right?

1822
01:27:52,375 --> 01:27:54,500
I felt sorry for him.

1823
01:27:55,500 --> 01:27:58,250
Doesn't mean I liked him
or approved what he did,

1824
01:27:58,333 --> 01:28:00,959
but I felt sorry for him
as an individual.

1825
01:28:01,667 --> 01:28:04,166
He didn't hide in that corner.
It was right over there.

1826
01:28:04,250 --> 01:28:07,792
But-- but he didn't
want to be... out there,

1827
01:28:07,875 --> 01:28:11,000
and-- and he wanted to show
the poor kid he was with

1828
01:28:11,083 --> 01:28:12,875
that he did have a life here.

1829
01:28:12,959 --> 01:28:14,333
And he certainly couldn't
take him dancing

1830
01:28:14,417 --> 01:28:16,375
'cause he was at the point
where he couldn't walk,

1831
01:28:16,458 --> 01:28:18,000
never mind dance.

1832
01:28:19,041 --> 01:28:21,125
He was gay and he was sick.

1833
01:28:21,709 --> 01:28:25,458
And he's got this child with him
that he's infecting.

1834
01:28:25,542 --> 01:28:29,250
You know, this really is sick.

1835
01:28:29,333 --> 01:28:31,291
I was looking
at a broken man,

1836
01:28:31,375 --> 01:28:33,917
and he was everything
he didn't wanna be.

1837
01:28:34,000 --> 01:28:37,083
♪ ♪

1838
01:28:37,834 --> 01:28:40,083
-Wallace: Do you have AIDS?
-Oh, no.

1839
01:28:41,041 --> 01:28:42,583
That's easy to answer.

1840
01:28:47,166 --> 01:28:49,291
I'm goin', Ethel.

1841
01:28:49,750 --> 01:28:53,083
Finally, finally
done with this world

1842
01:28:53,166 --> 01:28:55,625
at long, long last.

1843
01:28:55,709 --> 01:28:59,333
The Almighty parts
the sea of death,

1844
01:28:59,417 --> 01:29:03,959
and lets his Roy boy
cross over to Jordan!

1845
01:29:04,583 --> 01:29:07,375
On dry land,

1846
01:29:07,458 --> 01:29:09,500
and still a lawyer.

1847
01:29:09,583 --> 01:29:12,375
Don't count your chickens, Roy.

1848
01:29:12,458 --> 01:29:14,625
-It's over.
-(gasps)

1849
01:29:15,542 --> 01:29:20,083
-Over?
-I wanted the news
should come from me.

1850
01:29:20,959 --> 01:29:23,792
The panel ruled
against ya, Roy.

1851
01:29:23,875 --> 01:29:28,208
No, no, they only started
meeting two days ago...

1852
01:29:28,291 --> 01:29:30,875
They recommended disbarment!

1853
01:29:30,959 --> 01:29:33,542
Why do you think
they're after you?

1854
01:29:33,625 --> 01:29:35,500
There are disbarment
proceedings.

1855
01:29:35,583 --> 01:29:37,667
We're talking about two cases,

1856
01:29:37,750 --> 01:29:40,166
in neither one of which
anyone was injured

1857
01:29:40,250 --> 01:29:42,375
even slightly, except me.

1858
01:29:42,458 --> 01:29:45,208
Wallace:
He borrowed $100,000
from a client,

1859
01:29:45,291 --> 01:29:47,000
Iva Schlesinger, and then,

1860
01:29:47,083 --> 01:29:49,041
despite his numerous
written promises,

1861
01:29:49,125 --> 01:29:52,417
he failed to repay
her that $100,000.

1862
01:29:52,667 --> 01:29:55,500
(Cohn speaking):

1863
01:29:55,583 --> 01:29:57,625
-Romano: Mm-hmm.
-(Cohn continues)

1864
01:30:03,792 --> 01:30:05,959
-Cohn: Pardon me?
-(Romano continues)

1865
01:30:11,458 --> 01:30:14,083
Anyone who knows me
knows I don't plead.

1866
01:30:14,166 --> 01:30:16,000
And I'm not pleading
in this case.

1867
01:30:16,083 --> 01:30:17,709
Lane:
He's fighting for his life,

1868
01:30:17,792 --> 01:30:22,417
and, on some level, more
importantly, his reputation.

1869
01:30:22,500 --> 01:30:25,625
He probably cried more
over the disbarment

1870
01:30:25,709 --> 01:30:28,250
than the AIDS diagnosis.

1871
01:30:28,333 --> 01:30:30,667
That's how important
it was to him.

1872
01:30:31,041 --> 01:30:33,417
In this last interview,
I show up in Florida,

1873
01:30:33,500 --> 01:30:34,959
and I was actually taken aback

1874
01:30:35,041 --> 01:30:37,125
because I hadn't seen him
in about a year,

1875
01:30:37,208 --> 01:30:40,208
and he was extremely frail.

1876
01:30:40,291 --> 01:30:42,917
He had lost a lot of weight,
he had to be helped
into a chair,

1877
01:30:43,000 --> 01:30:45,959
his clothes were baggy,
but he was game.

1878
01:30:46,041 --> 01:30:48,500
He wanted to get stuff
off of his chest,

1879
01:30:48,583 --> 01:30:50,458
and we talked
for an hour or so

1880
01:30:50,542 --> 01:30:52,166
in this mansion that was--

1881
01:30:52,250 --> 01:30:53,625
I don't even remember
whose it was,

1882
01:30:53,709 --> 01:30:56,083
but it was this beautiful
mansion on Worth Avenue.

1883
01:30:56,166 --> 01:30:57,750
And then we went
out to dinner.

1884
01:30:57,834 --> 01:30:59,417
And, um, and I asked him,

1885
01:30:59,500 --> 01:31:01,583
I said, "You know,
what do you think about now?

1886
01:31:01,667 --> 01:31:03,166
What do you dream about?"
And he said,

1887
01:31:03,250 --> 01:31:05,125
"You know, I dream about death,

1888
01:31:05,208 --> 01:31:07,250
and I think about my funeral."

1889
01:31:08,208 --> 01:31:11,375
(Romano speaking on tape):

1890
01:31:18,000 --> 01:31:20,667
(Cohn speaking on tape):

1891
01:31:47,250 --> 01:31:49,625
(applause)

1892
01:31:49,709 --> 01:31:51,500
Crowd:
♪ Happy birthday to you ♪

1893
01:31:51,583 --> 01:31:54,583
♪ Happy birthday to you ♪

1894
01:31:55,250 --> 01:31:57,333
(singing continues,
indistinct chatter)

1895
01:31:57,417 --> 01:31:59,709
Woman:
You have to make
a very special wish.

1896
01:31:59,792 --> 01:32:02,625
Ivy Meeropol:
Did he feel that people
were abandoning him?

1897
01:32:03,000 --> 01:32:05,834
I'm not sure that
he would ever show

1898
01:32:05,917 --> 01:32:07,875
that side of him.

1899
01:32:09,125 --> 01:32:13,125
But there are some of us
who don't abandon friends,

1900
01:32:13,208 --> 01:32:14,542
no matter what.

1901
01:32:15,750 --> 01:32:17,500
Romano:
Donald was plugged in.

1902
01:32:17,583 --> 01:32:20,583
And I'm sure he had
heard that Roy had AIDS.

1903
01:32:20,667 --> 01:32:23,250
And when he's dying,
Trump pulls away,

1904
01:32:23,333 --> 01:32:25,458
and-- and it hurt Roy.

1905
01:32:25,542 --> 01:32:27,834
He felt like he had done
a lot to promote,

1906
01:32:27,917 --> 01:32:30,458
to help bring
Donald Trump along.

1907
01:32:30,542 --> 01:32:34,625
Ladies and gentlemen,
please join me in a salute
to a winner,

1908
01:32:34,709 --> 01:32:36,625
and a friend,
Mr. Donald Trump.

1909
01:32:36,709 --> 01:32:38,208
♪ ♪

1910
01:32:38,291 --> 01:32:40,208
(applause)

1911
01:32:40,291 --> 01:32:41,875
Trump:
Thank you.

1912
01:32:41,959 --> 01:32:43,917
I would like to just
introduce quickly my family.

1913
01:32:44,000 --> 01:32:46,166
My wife, Ivana,
my father, Fred,

1914
01:32:46,250 --> 01:32:49,083
my sister, the judge,
thanks to the President.

1915
01:32:49,792 --> 01:32:51,208
(laughter)

1916
01:32:51,291 --> 01:32:53,959
LeBoutillier:
It was a wrenching
thing to watch.

1917
01:32:56,083 --> 01:32:59,041
But a lot of Roy's
so-called friends

1918
01:32:59,125 --> 01:33:01,583
blew him off after he got sick.

1919
01:33:05,375 --> 01:33:08,083
Brit Hume:
Roy Cohn, the unorthodox
and colorful lawyer

1920
01:33:08,166 --> 01:33:09,834
who may have made
more prominent enemies

1921
01:33:09,917 --> 01:33:12,500
and more prominent friends
than any American of his time,

1922
01:33:12,583 --> 01:33:13,834
is dead.

1923
01:33:13,917 --> 01:33:16,083
Cohn died early this morning
of a heart attack.

1924
01:33:16,166 --> 01:33:19,083
The virus HTLV-3, which
is believed to cause AIDS,

1925
01:33:19,166 --> 01:33:21,709
was listed as a secondary
cause of death.

1926
01:33:30,917 --> 01:33:34,041
(water flowing)

1927
01:33:40,208 --> 01:33:42,458
Romano:
How do you wanna
be remembered?

1928
01:33:42,542 --> 01:33:44,542
Cohn:
I have no choice

1929
01:33:44,625 --> 01:33:46,750
because I know I am
gonna be Joe McCarthy's

1930
01:33:46,834 --> 01:33:49,291
Chief Counsel
for the rest of my life,

1931
01:33:49,375 --> 01:33:52,667
no matter what else good
or bad I should ever do.

1932
01:33:53,166 --> 01:33:56,500
(somber music playing)

1933
01:33:56,583 --> 01:33:59,959
Romano:
If you could turn back
the clock to 1953 or four,

1934
01:34:00,041 --> 01:34:02,709
-would you do
anything differently?
-Cohn: Sure.

1935
01:34:02,792 --> 01:34:04,792
Who, 25 or 30 years later,

1936
01:34:04,875 --> 01:34:06,375
wouldn't do
something different?

1937
01:34:06,458 --> 01:34:08,291
Romano:
What? Do you think
you were too abrasive

1938
01:34:08,375 --> 01:34:11,291
-as some people say?
-Cohn: Sure.

1939
01:34:11,375 --> 01:34:13,542
But, I'm not sure if
I hadn't been too aggressive

1940
01:34:13,625 --> 01:34:16,000
if I could've
gotten any results.

1941
01:34:16,083 --> 01:34:17,792
Romano:
What do you say
to people who say

1942
01:34:17,875 --> 01:34:19,333
you ruined people's lives?

1943
01:34:19,417 --> 01:34:22,375
Cohn:
I say name one.

1944
01:34:22,458 --> 01:34:25,709
Because I know what
the truth is and they don't.

1945
01:34:30,750 --> 01:34:33,959
(typewriter clicking)

1946
01:34:36,667 --> 01:34:37,709
(ding)

1947
01:34:37,792 --> 01:34:41,125
("Exhuming McCarthy"
by R.E.M. playing)

1948
01:34:41,208 --> 01:34:42,834
♪ You're beautiful ♪

1949
01:34:42,917 --> 01:34:46,834
♪ More beautiful than me ♪

1950
01:34:46,917 --> 01:34:50,625
♪ You're honorable,
more honorable ♪

1951
01:34:50,709 --> 01:34:53,041
♪ Than me ♪

1952
01:34:53,125 --> 01:34:56,917
♪ Loyal to
the Bank of America ♪

1953
01:35:05,333 --> 01:35:08,417
♪ It's a sign of the times ♪

1954
01:35:09,458 --> 01:35:12,333
♪ It's a sign of the times ♪

1955
01:35:12,417 --> 01:35:14,583
♪ You're sharpening stones ♪

1956
01:35:14,667 --> 01:35:16,500
♪ Walking on coals ♪

1957
01:35:16,583 --> 01:35:20,333
♪ To improve your
business acumen ♪

1958
01:35:20,417 --> 01:35:22,458
♪ Sharpening stones ♪

1959
01:35:22,542 --> 01:35:24,333
♪ Walking on coals ♪

1960
01:35:24,417 --> 01:35:28,291
♪ To improve your
business acumen ♪

1961
01:35:28,375 --> 01:35:32,166
♪ Vested interest
united ties ♪

1962
01:35:32,250 --> 01:35:36,083
♪ Landed gentry rationalize ♪

1963
01:35:36,166 --> 01:35:39,125
♪ Look who bought the myth ♪

1964
01:35:40,125 --> 01:35:43,792
♪ By jingo, buy America ♪

1965
01:35:52,333 --> 01:35:56,250
♪ It's a sign of the times ♪

1966
01:35:56,333 --> 01:35:59,417
♪ It's a sign of the times ♪

1967
01:35:59,500 --> 01:36:01,583
♪ You're sharpening stones ♪

1968
01:36:01,667 --> 01:36:03,542
♪ Walking on coals ♪

1969
01:36:03,625 --> 01:36:07,417
♪ To improve your
business acumen ♪

1970
01:36:07,500 --> 01:36:09,458
♪ Sharpening stones ♪

1971
01:36:09,542 --> 01:36:11,375
♪ Walking on coals ♪

1972
01:36:11,458 --> 01:36:15,250
♪ To improve your
business acumen ♪

1973
01:36:15,333 --> 01:36:17,333
♪ Enemy sighted ♪

1974
01:36:17,417 --> 01:36:19,166
♪ Enemy met ♪

1975
01:36:19,250 --> 01:36:23,083
♪ I'm addressing
the realpolitik ♪

1976
01:36:23,166 --> 01:36:25,834
♪ Look who bought the myth ♪

1977
01:36:27,125 --> 01:36:30,709
♪ By jingo, buy America ♪

1978
01:36:35,750 --> 01:36:39,500
Welch:
Let us not assassinate
this lad further, Senator.

1979
01:36:39,583 --> 01:36:41,542
You've done enough.

1980
01:36:41,625 --> 01:36:45,250
Have you no sense
of decency, sir,

1981
01:36:45,333 --> 01:36:46,792
at long last?

1982
01:36:46,875 --> 01:36:50,709
Have you left
no sense of decency?

1983
01:36:54,417 --> 01:36:57,959
♪ ♪

1984
01:36:58,041 --> 01:37:00,333
♪ You're sharpening stones ♪

1985
01:37:00,417 --> 01:37:02,208
♪ Walking on coals ♪

1986
01:37:02,291 --> 01:37:06,000
♪ To improve your
business acumen ♪

1987
01:37:06,083 --> 01:37:08,125
♪ Sharpening stones ♪

1988
01:37:08,208 --> 01:37:10,041
♪ Walking on coals ♪

1989
01:37:10,125 --> 01:37:13,959
♪ To improve your
business acumen ♪

1990
01:37:14,041 --> 01:37:16,250
♪ Enemy sighted ♪

1991
01:37:16,333 --> 01:37:17,834
♪ Enemy met ♪

1992
01:37:17,917 --> 01:37:21,875
♪ I'm addressing
the realpolitik ♪

1993
01:37:21,959 --> 01:37:23,458
♪ You've seen start ♪

1994
01:37:23,542 --> 01:37:25,625
♪ And you've seen quit ♪

1995
01:37:25,709 --> 01:37:29,500
♪ I've always thought
of you as quick ♪

1996
01:37:29,583 --> 01:37:32,125
♪ Exhuming McCarthy ♪

1997
01:37:33,291 --> 01:37:35,917
♪ Exhuming McCarthy ♪

1998
01:37:37,125 --> 01:37:39,625
♪ Exhuming McCarthy ♪

1999
01:37:41,041 --> 01:37:44,208
♪ Exhuming McCarthy ♪