1 00:00:05,174 --> 00:00:07,468 (slow haunting music) 2 00:00:07,509 --> 00:00:11,889 - [Kal] Death, it's the final destination for all of us, 3 00:00:11,930 --> 00:00:13,640 and it's a real money maker. 4 00:00:13,682 --> 00:00:15,017 (moves into up-tempo riveting music) 5 00:00:15,058 --> 00:00:16,560 The average American funeral costs 6 00:00:16,602 --> 00:00:19,104 between eight and 10,000 bucks. 7 00:00:19,146 --> 00:00:21,523 That's a $20 billion dollar a year industry, 8 00:00:21,565 --> 00:00:23,358 and that's just for funerals. 9 00:00:23,358 --> 00:00:25,027 There's also a huge underground industry 10 00:00:25,068 --> 00:00:27,154 made up of lawyers, corporations, 11 00:00:27,196 --> 00:00:29,948 government officials, and some not so official people. 12 00:00:29,990 --> 00:00:31,617 Hey, are you the hit man? 13 00:00:31,658 --> 00:00:33,952 - Who the fuck are you? - (mid-tempo lively music) 14 00:00:33,994 --> 00:00:38,832 - Who all get paid to put a price tag on your toe tag. 15 00:00:38,874 --> 00:00:41,960 They decide how much it's worth to preserve your life, 16 00:00:42,002 --> 00:00:45,130 to end it, or what it's gonna take to pay off 17 00:00:45,172 --> 00:00:48,592 your next of kin once you're outta here. 18 00:00:48,634 --> 00:00:50,636 So how much is my life worth? 19 00:00:50,677 --> 00:00:53,222 How much should I spend on a coffin? 20 00:00:53,263 --> 00:00:54,598 And how much sex should I be having 21 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,392 to maximize my return on dying. 22 00:00:57,434 --> 00:00:58,936 These are just a few of the questions 23 00:00:58,977 --> 00:01:00,854 we're going to lay to rest. 24 00:01:00,896 --> 00:01:03,524 Welcome to The Death Episode. 25 00:01:09,905 --> 00:01:13,951 Whether you like it or not, we're all connected by money. 26 00:01:13,992 --> 00:01:15,911 I'm Kal Penn exploring 27 00:01:15,953 --> 00:01:19,623 This Giant Beast That Is The Global Economy. 28 00:01:20,874 --> 00:01:24,628 (slow uneasy music) 29 00:01:24,670 --> 00:01:26,255 First of all, don't worry, 30 00:01:26,296 --> 00:01:28,757 I know a whole show about the death economy 31 00:01:28,799 --> 00:01:30,217 might make you a bit nervous. 32 00:01:30,259 --> 00:01:31,593 Heck, I don't even like to think 33 00:01:31,635 --> 00:01:33,095 about the possibility of me dying, 34 00:01:33,136 --> 00:01:34,847 so let's have a safe word 35 00:01:34,888 --> 00:01:38,058 just in case things get uncomfortable. 36 00:01:39,059 --> 00:01:41,311 How about puppies? 37 00:01:41,353 --> 00:01:43,480 (mid-tempo cheerful music) 38 00:01:43,522 --> 00:01:46,108 (puppies bark) 39 00:01:48,610 --> 00:01:51,864 (mid-tempo rock music) 40 00:01:55,617 --> 00:01:58,537 So how much is a life worth? 41 00:01:58,579 --> 00:02:00,414 I could ask a million people this question, 42 00:02:00,455 --> 00:02:02,082 and get a million answers. 43 00:02:02,124 --> 00:02:03,750 But I've decided to start by asking a person 44 00:02:03,792 --> 00:02:07,129 who's schooled in the practice of ending lives. 45 00:02:07,170 --> 00:02:09,840 - Hey, are you the hit man? - Who the fuck are you? 46 00:02:09,882 --> 00:02:11,383 - I'm Kal. 47 00:02:11,425 --> 00:02:13,635 All right. 48 00:02:13,677 --> 00:02:15,262 I guess I don't need my seatbelt 49 00:02:15,304 --> 00:02:17,264 if we're not going anywhere. 50 00:02:17,306 --> 00:02:19,558 Um, I mean, we-- I-- I sorta wanted-- 51 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:21,852 - First of all, don't stutter. - Yeah. 52 00:02:21,894 --> 00:02:23,478 - Okay. All right. - You nervous? 53 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:25,105 - I'm a little nervous. - Okay, just relax. 54 00:02:25,147 --> 00:02:26,106 - [Kal] Okay. - Okay? 55 00:02:26,189 --> 00:02:27,149 - Yep. - Okay. 56 00:02:27,190 --> 00:02:28,775 - So how do people find you 57 00:02:28,817 --> 00:02:30,569 when they're looking for a hitman? 58 00:02:30,611 --> 00:02:32,195 - I'm not in the fucking Yellow Pages, believe me. 59 00:02:32,237 --> 00:02:34,197 - Right, that's what I'm saying, how-- 60 00:02:34,239 --> 00:02:36,283 - Okay, I was the fucking hitman to go do something, okay? 61 00:02:36,325 --> 00:02:38,619 - Does the cost of the hit change if people have kids? 62 00:02:38,660 --> 00:02:41,538 If they live in an apartment building instead of a house? 63 00:02:41,538 --> 00:02:43,290 - What are you, a fucking cop? 64 00:02:43,332 --> 00:02:46,293 - Are you a cop? - Yeah, I'm a fucking cop. 65 00:02:46,335 --> 00:02:47,961 - I knew you were a cop. - Yeah? 66 00:02:48,003 --> 00:02:49,713 - Okay. - Good, get the fuck out. 67 00:02:49,755 --> 00:02:52,549 - From the '80s through the early 2000s, 68 00:02:52,591 --> 00:02:56,094 Dominick Polifrone used to hold meetings just like this 69 00:02:56,136 --> 00:02:59,139 in out of the way parking lots with desperate people 70 00:02:59,181 --> 00:03:01,808 willing to pay big money to have somebody whacked. 71 00:03:01,850 --> 00:03:04,353 They thought Dominick was a contract killer 72 00:03:04,394 --> 00:03:06,229 ready to commit murder on their behalf, 73 00:03:06,271 --> 00:03:09,858 but he was actually an undercover ATF agent. 74 00:03:09,900 --> 00:03:12,861 His work was dangerous, but it helped convict many people 75 00:03:12,903 --> 00:03:15,072 looking to take human lives. 76 00:03:15,113 --> 00:03:16,782 Including in 1986, 77 00:03:16,823 --> 00:03:19,201 when he helped catch serial killer and mob hitman, 78 00:03:19,242 --> 00:03:21,912 Richard Kuklinski, known as The Iceman 79 00:03:21,954 --> 00:03:25,082 for his method of freezing his victims after death. 80 00:03:25,123 --> 00:03:28,919 Going undercover as a hitman in order to nail a real hitman 81 00:03:28,961 --> 00:03:31,296 was all just part of the job for Dominick. 82 00:03:31,338 --> 00:03:34,299 He's an expert on the economics of extermination. 83 00:03:34,341 --> 00:03:36,176 How does this actually work? 84 00:03:36,218 --> 00:03:38,011 - What you're trying to do is say, 85 00:03:38,053 --> 00:03:41,640 "Hey, listen, I got this problem that I gotta take care of." 86 00:03:41,682 --> 00:03:43,642 - Yeah. - My wife is cheatin' on me, 87 00:03:43,684 --> 00:03:46,228 or I met somebody, I gotta get rid of my wife. 88 00:03:46,269 --> 00:03:48,313 - Okay. - How do you want it done? 89 00:03:48,355 --> 00:03:50,941 Do you want it clean? Do you want it to look like an accident? 90 00:03:50,983 --> 00:03:52,317 There's various options-- 91 00:03:52,359 --> 00:03:54,778 - So even, even with a hit, 92 00:03:54,820 --> 00:03:57,114 you have like a menu of choices. 93 00:03:57,155 --> 00:03:59,741 - (chuckles) Menu? - That's how I'm envisioning it, right? 94 00:03:59,783 --> 00:04:02,786 - Kinda like you're-- - A menu, well, I wanna know, 95 00:04:02,828 --> 00:04:06,081 do you want it to look like an accident? 96 00:04:06,123 --> 00:04:09,501 Or do you want it to, you know, you wanna make a statement? 97 00:04:09,543 --> 00:04:11,586 - [Kal] Can you talk to me about how much it will cost 98 00:04:11,628 --> 00:04:13,296 to have somebody killed. 99 00:04:13,338 --> 00:04:15,799 - Well, the price isn't written in stone. 100 00:04:15,841 --> 00:04:17,259 - Let's say you have two clients. 101 00:04:17,300 --> 00:04:20,012 One is the CEO of a big company, 102 00:04:20,053 --> 00:04:22,389 the other one is a carpenter. 103 00:04:22,431 --> 00:04:25,100 How do you tell them how much it's gonna cost. 104 00:04:25,142 --> 00:04:27,728 - I get a read and a feel from that individual. 105 00:04:27,769 --> 00:04:29,271 - Okay. 106 00:04:29,312 --> 00:04:31,314 - Now, if you come from a wealthy family, 107 00:04:31,356 --> 00:04:33,275 I can tell you it's 10,000. 108 00:04:33,316 --> 00:04:35,318 - So let's say somebody's a carpenter, 109 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,238 somebody's, you know, somebody's working as a mechanic, so-- 110 00:04:38,280 --> 00:04:40,699 - Yeah, okay, it's five grand. 111 00:04:40,741 --> 00:04:43,827 - Having never known what it costs to have somebody killed, 112 00:04:43,869 --> 00:04:45,996 five grand seems low. 113 00:04:46,038 --> 00:04:47,873 - Look, if you're gonna do a hit for made people 114 00:04:47,914 --> 00:04:49,791 for organized crime, it could go anywhere 115 00:04:49,833 --> 00:04:52,044 from 10 grand or more. 116 00:04:52,085 --> 00:04:53,795 - Okay, tell me if this is right. 117 00:04:53,837 --> 00:04:55,714 The price of a hit is not like the price 118 00:04:55,756 --> 00:04:57,549 of a slice of pizza. 119 00:04:57,591 --> 00:04:59,968 It's not two or three dollars depending on where you go. 120 00:05:00,010 --> 00:05:02,262 It depends on who is asking for the hit, 121 00:05:02,304 --> 00:05:04,347 and how much you think they can reasonably afford. 122 00:05:04,389 --> 00:05:05,515 - That's correct. - Okay. 123 00:05:05,557 --> 00:05:07,392 Do people always pay in cash, 124 00:05:07,434 --> 00:05:08,643 or can they transfer money? 125 00:05:08,685 --> 00:05:10,270 Is it digital? Do you take Venmo? 126 00:05:10,353 --> 00:05:11,521 - Who do I look like, a fucking bank? 127 00:05:11,563 --> 00:05:13,148 - Well, I wonder in terms of-- 128 00:05:13,190 --> 00:05:14,608 - You gonna give me a credit card or what? 129 00:05:14,649 --> 00:05:16,359 - (laughs) Do people try? 130 00:05:16,401 --> 00:05:18,236 - No, cash. - [Kal] It's always cash. 131 00:05:18,278 --> 00:05:20,155 - You know, if you brought me a credit card, 132 00:05:20,197 --> 00:05:23,033 - I'd have to kill you. - (Kal laughs) 133 00:05:23,075 --> 00:05:27,662 - Okay, so what's the value of a human life 134 00:05:27,704 --> 00:05:29,581 in the hitman world? 135 00:05:29,623 --> 00:05:30,999 - Nothing. 136 00:05:31,041 --> 00:05:32,876 - It's nothing, interesting. 137 00:05:32,918 --> 00:05:37,339 - Life in that type of business, you kiddin' me? 138 00:05:37,380 --> 00:05:40,842 - How much would it cost for a hit on me? 139 00:05:40,884 --> 00:05:42,677 - I'd do it for nothin'. 140 00:05:42,719 --> 00:05:44,805 - Well, that's good to know. - Hey, no problem. 141 00:05:44,846 --> 00:05:46,598 (slow reserved music) 142 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,476 - [Kal] In Dominick's world, the price to end a life 143 00:05:49,518 --> 00:05:51,686 is pretty much whatever the market will bear. 144 00:05:51,728 --> 00:05:54,231 Whoever wants the hit has got to pay upfront. 145 00:05:54,272 --> 00:05:57,651 But what happens if the equation is the other way around? 146 00:05:57,692 --> 00:06:01,988 Who decides the cost of death after the dying's done? 147 00:06:02,030 --> 00:06:06,701 (mid-tempo rock music) 148 00:06:06,743 --> 00:06:09,830 If you happen to die, and it's someone else's fault, 149 00:06:09,871 --> 00:06:12,666 it could be classified as a wrongful death, 150 00:06:12,707 --> 00:06:15,168 and your next of kin might get a big payday. 151 00:06:15,210 --> 00:06:18,171 Exactly how much is decided by guys like this. 152 00:06:18,213 --> 00:06:22,008 Allen Hurkin-Torres is a retired New York judge 153 00:06:22,050 --> 00:06:25,679 who managed one of the largest caseloads in all of the U.S. 154 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,265 with more than 15,000 settlements. 155 00:06:28,306 --> 00:06:30,851 But in his past life, Allen also rocked the shit 156 00:06:30,892 --> 00:06:32,310 out of some New York punk clubs 157 00:06:32,352 --> 00:06:34,604 with his power pop band, The Speedies. 158 00:06:34,646 --> 00:06:36,773 - Everybody always sees you in a suit and tie. 159 00:06:36,815 --> 00:06:38,441 - [Kal] Uh-huh. - That that's who you are. 160 00:06:38,483 --> 00:06:41,069 - But that's the band shot. - Oh, dude! 161 00:06:41,111 --> 00:06:43,196 - [Allen] And I'm gonna give you a hint, stripes. 162 00:06:43,238 --> 00:06:45,115 - No way! 163 00:06:45,157 --> 00:06:47,325 Allen now works as a private mediator, 164 00:06:47,367 --> 00:06:50,412 helping settle lawsuits before they reach a courtroom, 165 00:06:50,453 --> 00:06:52,873 and has secured more than $2 billion worth 166 00:06:52,914 --> 00:06:54,708 of successful settlements. 167 00:06:54,749 --> 00:06:56,251 How do you want me to cut these, by the way? 168 00:06:56,293 --> 00:06:58,128 - What does your heart tell you? 169 00:06:58,170 --> 00:07:00,130 - My heart tells me-- All right, I got it. 170 00:07:00,172 --> 00:07:02,424 Allen's life is a little bit rock and roll, 171 00:07:02,465 --> 00:07:05,844 little bit wrongful death, and a whole lot of food. 172 00:07:05,886 --> 00:07:07,721 - Well, my job in the courthouse was 173 00:07:07,762 --> 00:07:09,598 a little bit different than most judges, 174 00:07:09,639 --> 00:07:13,018 'cause my job was to get rid of the cases by settlement. 175 00:07:13,059 --> 00:07:15,395 Because essentially, in Brooklyn we probably had thousands of cases. 176 00:07:15,437 --> 00:07:17,981 - [Kal] And what kinds of cases did you work on? 177 00:07:18,023 --> 00:07:21,234 - Personal injury cases, wrongful death cases, 178 00:07:21,276 --> 00:07:25,155 so all I did was mediate cases every single day. 179 00:07:25,197 --> 00:07:26,865 Somebody asked me one day 180 00:07:26,907 --> 00:07:30,118 how personal injury differed from wrongful death. 181 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:31,995 I told them it is a personal injury case, 182 00:07:32,037 --> 00:07:34,289 except the injury is the worst kind you can have, you're dead. 183 00:07:34,331 --> 00:07:36,833 - (Kal laughs) - I think the death cases, 184 00:07:36,875 --> 00:07:38,126 they pose whole different hurdles 185 00:07:38,168 --> 00:07:39,669 about, you know, right and wrong, 186 00:07:39,711 --> 00:07:41,922 and what we appreciate in society. 187 00:07:41,963 --> 00:07:44,799 - A wrongful death case is very different 188 00:07:44,841 --> 00:07:47,469 from a criminal case, no one's going to jail. 189 00:07:47,510 --> 00:07:52,307 Instead, justice is dispensed as a financial transaction. 190 00:07:52,349 --> 00:07:55,101 It's like how O.J. Simpson wasn't convicted of murder, 191 00:07:55,143 --> 00:07:58,021 but was found to be responsible for two deaths. 192 00:07:58,063 --> 00:07:59,439 The justice system told him 193 00:07:59,481 --> 00:08:02,234 to fork over more than $25 million. 194 00:08:02,275 --> 00:08:04,653 Or when a man died from injuries he suffered 195 00:08:04,694 --> 00:08:08,156 after dodging a flying shrimp at a Benihana restaurant 196 00:08:08,198 --> 00:08:10,325 which required surgery. 197 00:08:10,367 --> 00:08:11,868 His wife sued the restaurant, 198 00:08:11,910 --> 00:08:14,246 claiming she was owed $10 million 199 00:08:14,287 --> 00:08:16,831 for the loss of her husband. 200 00:08:16,873 --> 00:08:21,461 Unfortunately for her, the jury didn't see it that way. 201 00:08:25,882 --> 00:08:28,426 Who typically sues who, like, for a case? 202 00:08:28,468 --> 00:08:30,804 - Very often it's the husband who's making more money. 203 00:08:30,845 --> 00:08:32,264 And he's been killed, 204 00:08:32,305 --> 00:08:34,307 and the wife is suing for wrongful death, 205 00:08:34,349 --> 00:08:36,226 saying she should be compensated. 206 00:08:36,268 --> 00:08:38,520 - How do you determine the value of a life? 207 00:08:38,561 --> 00:08:41,523 - Well, the statutes vary from state to state, 208 00:08:41,564 --> 00:08:42,983 but with states like New York, 209 00:08:43,024 --> 00:08:45,235 the damages are considered just pecuniary. 210 00:08:45,277 --> 00:08:46,987 - So what is that? What does that mean? 211 00:08:47,028 --> 00:08:48,238 - You're worth, what you're worth 212 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:50,156 as far as how much money you generate, 213 00:08:50,198 --> 00:08:52,534 you're viewed as an economic engine that throws off money, 214 00:08:52,575 --> 00:08:55,829 and very often, who you're throwing the money to, who you're supporting. 215 00:08:55,870 --> 00:08:58,832 But part of the problem is with the way that the death statutes are made is 216 00:08:58,873 --> 00:09:01,293 that basically the death of a kid is not worth anything. 217 00:09:01,334 --> 00:09:04,337 - Why? - Kids or the elderly, 218 00:09:04,379 --> 00:09:06,298 they're not economic engines, 219 00:09:06,339 --> 00:09:08,133 they're not throwing off money, they're not supporting anybody. 220 00:09:08,174 --> 00:09:11,052 So the question is what's the value of that child, 221 00:09:11,094 --> 00:09:13,555 that value of that elderly person? 222 00:09:13,596 --> 00:09:15,432 The answer is very, very little. 223 00:09:15,473 --> 00:09:17,559 - [Kal] Wow, that seems crazy. 224 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:20,437 - So the only component that they really have is 225 00:09:20,478 --> 00:09:23,315 pain and suffering for that limited time 226 00:09:23,356 --> 00:09:25,442 before the death and when it was about to happen, 227 00:09:25,483 --> 00:09:27,444 and pre-death terror. 228 00:09:27,485 --> 00:09:29,821 So if you got a guy in the street, and you heard him scream. 229 00:09:29,863 --> 00:09:31,865 He said, "Oh, my God! The car's barreling down on me. 230 00:09:31,906 --> 00:09:34,075 He's gonna hit me! This is gonna hurt so much." 231 00:09:34,117 --> 00:09:35,869 Pre-death terror. 232 00:09:35,910 --> 00:09:38,872 So unless there's some pain and suffering before the death, 233 00:09:38,913 --> 00:09:41,041 they have a very limited value. 234 00:09:41,082 --> 00:09:42,208 - [Kal] So why sue then? 235 00:09:42,250 --> 00:09:43,626 - Well, look, in death cases, 236 00:09:43,668 --> 00:09:45,503 very often they're missing somebody, 237 00:09:45,545 --> 00:09:47,797 and the real problem is there's nothing our system can do 238 00:09:47,839 --> 00:09:49,883 - to give them back their loved one. - Right. 239 00:09:49,924 --> 00:09:51,968 - Usually, they're coming in, basically, for catharsis. 240 00:09:52,010 --> 00:09:54,095 - So it's a therapy session. - Oh, wow. 241 00:09:54,137 --> 00:09:56,264 - You talk to them and the biggest problem they have 242 00:09:56,306 --> 00:09:58,141 is putting a settlement number on the case. 243 00:09:58,183 --> 00:10:01,811 Because they feel that by saying, "Yes, $400,000," 244 00:10:01,853 --> 00:10:04,022 - that they put a number on their loved one. - Okay. 245 00:10:04,064 --> 00:10:06,358 - The best way that I try to do it is this, 246 00:10:06,399 --> 00:10:08,693 I say, "Look, nothing will ever bring your loved one back. 247 00:10:08,735 --> 00:10:11,154 "However, the money can be used for good purposes, 248 00:10:11,196 --> 00:10:13,531 for your other child, for college." 249 00:10:13,573 --> 00:10:15,450 After they're done talking to you, they sort of feel like 250 00:10:15,492 --> 00:10:17,327 they've had their therapy session and catharsis, 251 00:10:17,369 --> 00:10:19,913 so you feel like you did something. 252 00:10:19,954 --> 00:10:23,375 - If you were to have to value yourself, 253 00:10:23,416 --> 00:10:24,834 how would you go about doing that? 254 00:10:24,876 --> 00:10:26,586 How would you run your own numbers? 255 00:10:26,628 --> 00:10:29,047 - I'm a high wage earner, so automatically 256 00:10:29,089 --> 00:10:31,049 that's calculated in the mix. 257 00:10:31,091 --> 00:10:34,969 I'm 55, so the question is what's my work life expectancy 258 00:10:35,011 --> 00:10:36,596 'cause there's pecuniary damages. 259 00:10:36,638 --> 00:10:39,891 Lawyers, or judges, we die at our desks. 260 00:10:39,933 --> 00:10:43,812 Most lawyers work into 70s. Put me up to 70, say. 261 00:10:43,853 --> 00:10:46,564 Fifteen times the present income, 262 00:10:46,606 --> 00:10:48,483 that's pretty much what I'm worth. 263 00:10:48,525 --> 00:10:51,903 - [Kal] So, if Allen's time comes in an untimely manner, 264 00:10:51,945 --> 00:10:53,530 he'll have high value due 265 00:10:53,571 --> 00:10:55,865 to his work as a judge and a mediator. 266 00:10:55,907 --> 00:10:57,659 Though I doubt his time will come soon, 267 00:10:57,700 --> 00:11:00,328 the man survived the '80s as a drummer. 268 00:11:00,370 --> 00:11:01,621 (slow mellow music) 269 00:11:01,663 --> 00:11:03,248 I guess it makes sense, 270 00:11:03,289 --> 00:11:05,291 the law can't give you your life back. 271 00:11:05,333 --> 00:11:08,420 Maybe all it can to is give your loved one some cash. 272 00:11:08,461 --> 00:11:10,255 But I'd like to think I'm worth more 273 00:11:10,296 --> 00:11:12,090 than just my lost income. 274 00:11:12,132 --> 00:11:16,886 How can I maximize my return on dying? 275 00:11:16,928 --> 00:11:19,347 - I need my death to payoff huge. 276 00:11:19,389 --> 00:11:22,392 - Are you assuming you're going to die tragically? 277 00:11:22,434 --> 00:11:26,146 - Well, I'm kinda-- I'm kinda dead set on it. 278 00:11:26,187 --> 00:11:28,231 - Okay, so, I'm assuming you 279 00:11:28,273 --> 00:11:30,066 don't have any substantial income? 280 00:11:30,108 --> 00:11:33,194 - You have guessed correctly. - Can you just? 281 00:11:33,236 --> 00:11:34,362 - Yes, sorry. - Thank you. 282 00:11:34,404 --> 00:11:35,780 Okay, well, other than lost income, 283 00:11:35,822 --> 00:11:38,199 there isn't a set price for wrongful death. 284 00:11:38,241 --> 00:11:40,118 It kinda depends on who you are, how you died, 285 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:41,911 what poor family you leave behind? 286 00:11:41,953 --> 00:11:43,830 - You mean rich family, don't you? 287 00:11:43,872 --> 00:11:47,000 - Ah, that depends on your story. - Huh (chuckles). 288 00:11:47,041 --> 00:11:49,002 - The average jury award for wrongful death suits 289 00:11:49,043 --> 00:11:51,588 is slightly over $2 million. 290 00:11:51,629 --> 00:11:53,339 - (laughs) That'll work! 291 00:11:53,381 --> 00:11:56,134 - Even more if you have a compelling and tragic tale. 292 00:11:56,176 --> 00:11:59,095 - Like "Scarface"? - More like "Steel Magnolias." 293 00:11:59,137 --> 00:12:01,431 - I've never seen that movie. 294 00:12:01,473 --> 00:12:04,726 - In 2001, a 22-year old Mets prospect died 295 00:12:04,767 --> 00:12:07,145 from a car defect before he signed his big contract, 296 00:12:07,187 --> 00:12:10,982 and that family was afforded 131 million. 297 00:12:11,024 --> 00:12:13,151 - Woo hoo hoo! 298 00:12:13,193 --> 00:12:15,820 - Your death needs to be Oscar bait. 299 00:12:15,862 --> 00:12:18,281 - Like Michael Shannon in that sex fish movie 300 00:12:18,323 --> 00:12:20,158 or something like that? 301 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:21,868 - You know what? Let's just focus on what you're gonna 302 00:12:21,910 --> 00:12:23,077 leave behind, shall we? 303 00:12:23,119 --> 00:12:24,787 - Are you married? - (sighs) 304 00:12:24,829 --> 00:12:27,874 Well, my wife and I don't like to put labels on it. 305 00:12:29,292 --> 00:12:31,044 - Well, juries do. 306 00:12:31,085 --> 00:12:32,712 Marrying someone could add a couple million to your value. 307 00:12:32,754 --> 00:12:34,923 - Hmm. 308 00:12:34,964 --> 00:12:36,841 - Another factor is that some states award 309 00:12:36,883 --> 00:12:39,219 for hedonic damages, which means they could 310 00:12:39,260 --> 00:12:41,429 financially compensate your widow 311 00:12:41,471 --> 00:12:44,474 for losing the pleasure of having sex with you. 312 00:12:44,516 --> 00:12:47,143 - She doesn't have to prove 313 00:12:47,185 --> 00:12:50,813 the pleasure part, right? 314 00:12:50,855 --> 00:12:53,399 - No. Okay, do you have 315 00:12:53,441 --> 00:12:55,485 any sort of community involvement, 316 00:12:55,527 --> 00:12:57,278 - you know, charity work? 317 00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:59,197 - I volunteer-- - Great. 318 00:12:59,239 --> 00:13:01,866 - ...my opinions online about anthem kneeling. 319 00:13:01,908 --> 00:13:05,620 - Right. 320 00:13:05,662 --> 00:13:07,247 I'm gonna be honest with you, 321 00:13:07,288 --> 00:13:08,831 I'm starting to think your death is sounding 322 00:13:08,873 --> 00:13:10,792 a little less wrongful. 323 00:13:10,833 --> 00:13:12,544 Why do you want it to pay off so well? 324 00:13:12,585 --> 00:13:15,213 - Well, I've always wanted to be wealthy, I mean-- 325 00:13:15,255 --> 00:13:16,589 - How exactly were you intending 326 00:13:16,631 --> 00:13:20,051 on collecting the money after you die? 327 00:13:21,803 --> 00:13:25,473 - Okay, clearly there are some elements of this scenario 328 00:13:25,515 --> 00:13:27,809 I haven't completely thought through. 329 00:13:27,850 --> 00:13:30,353 Maybe you could recommend a medium 330 00:13:30,395 --> 00:13:33,147 or some other interdimensional specialist, 331 00:13:33,189 --> 00:13:35,858 perhaps the person that gave you those magic balls? 332 00:13:35,900 --> 00:13:38,027 - Get out of my office. 333 00:13:38,069 --> 00:13:39,904 - Do you validate parking? - Not for you. 334 00:13:39,946 --> 00:13:42,115 - But you do. - I do for others. 335 00:13:42,156 --> 00:13:44,033 - Yes, my cousin drove me. 336 00:13:46,202 --> 00:13:48,997 - There is another way to go at all of this. 337 00:13:49,038 --> 00:13:52,041 (slow reserved music) 338 00:13:52,083 --> 00:13:53,626 Like instead of asking 339 00:13:53,668 --> 00:13:55,712 what's the cost of a wrongful death, 340 00:13:55,753 --> 00:13:59,090 asking what's it worth to prevent a death? 341 00:13:59,132 --> 00:14:00,383 Governments and companies have 342 00:14:00,425 --> 00:14:03,261 to ask that question all the time. 343 00:14:12,437 --> 00:14:15,648 Mike Gatto is a personal injury and malpractice lawyer. 344 00:14:15,690 --> 00:14:18,318 When an action or lack of action by the government 345 00:14:18,359 --> 00:14:20,695 or company leads to injury or death, 346 00:14:20,737 --> 00:14:23,156 Mike's the man on the case. 347 00:14:23,197 --> 00:14:24,782 So, why are we here? 348 00:14:24,824 --> 00:14:27,368 - Sometimes as little as a safety sign, 349 00:14:27,410 --> 00:14:30,121 very inexpensive, can save lives. 350 00:14:30,163 --> 00:14:32,123 Yesterday, I took depositions in a case 351 00:14:32,165 --> 00:14:35,209 where two motorcyclists died because the city failed 352 00:14:35,251 --> 00:14:40,006 to alert motorcyclists that a roundabout was raised. 353 00:14:40,048 --> 00:14:41,507 They hit it and died. 354 00:14:41,549 --> 00:14:42,842 - Whoa. 355 00:14:42,884 --> 00:14:44,594 Safe word, puppies. 356 00:14:44,636 --> 00:14:45,803 (mid-tempo cheerful music) 357 00:14:49,140 --> 00:14:51,309 (mid-tempo unsettling music) 358 00:14:51,351 --> 00:14:52,894 So the cost of something that simple 359 00:14:52,935 --> 00:14:55,271 can have serious ramifications. 360 00:14:55,313 --> 00:14:57,607 I would imagine whatever legal actions you're pursuing 361 00:14:57,649 --> 00:15:00,902 are far more than the cost of a couple of street signs. 362 00:15:00,943 --> 00:15:02,695 - Many, many times over. 363 00:15:02,737 --> 00:15:06,157 I mean, a street sign, what can these things cost, 40 bucks? 364 00:15:06,199 --> 00:15:07,909 - In the wrongful death claims, 365 00:15:07,950 --> 00:15:10,286 behind the scenes, was there a calculation made 366 00:15:10,328 --> 00:15:11,871 as to what the payout might be 367 00:15:11,913 --> 00:15:14,123 from a corporation or a government? 368 00:15:14,165 --> 00:15:16,084 - We absolutely believe that occurs. 369 00:15:16,125 --> 00:15:17,627 We rarely find out about it, 370 00:15:17,669 --> 00:15:20,088 but there are a couple of historical cases 371 00:15:20,129 --> 00:15:22,382 that provide us some perspective. 372 00:15:22,423 --> 00:15:24,634 Many people know of Ford Pinto. 373 00:15:24,676 --> 00:15:27,804 This was the early '70s. 374 00:15:27,845 --> 00:15:29,514 They wanted to bring the Pinto to market 375 00:15:29,555 --> 00:15:31,015 at a low enough price, 376 00:15:31,057 --> 00:15:34,394 and they wanted to sell it for $1,999. 377 00:15:34,435 --> 00:15:35,937 And somewhere along the way, 378 00:15:35,978 --> 00:15:41,025 they realized the gas tank was vulnerable 379 00:15:41,067 --> 00:15:43,903 to explosion and fire. 380 00:15:43,945 --> 00:15:47,573 - And the fix was $11. - Whoa. 381 00:15:47,615 --> 00:15:50,284 - Ford made calculations and estimates 382 00:15:50,326 --> 00:15:52,412 about the value of human life 383 00:15:52,453 --> 00:15:56,541 and injuries that would stem from the dangerous gas tank, 384 00:15:56,582 --> 00:16:00,461 and they chose to go forward all for the sake of money. 385 00:16:00,503 --> 00:16:02,964 - So, in corporate settings, is that common 386 00:16:03,005 --> 00:16:06,008 that people are sitting around a boardroom making 387 00:16:06,050 --> 00:16:07,677 a calculation about whether they should 388 00:16:07,719 --> 00:16:10,012 pay out somebody's death that will result 389 00:16:10,054 --> 00:16:11,597 from something they're doing? 390 00:16:11,639 --> 00:16:13,266 - Sadly, I think yes. 391 00:16:13,307 --> 00:16:15,768 We only learn of it when there are lawsuits 392 00:16:15,810 --> 00:16:17,562 and corporations are forced to reveal it 393 00:16:17,603 --> 00:16:19,188 or when there's some whistle-blower. 394 00:16:19,230 --> 00:16:21,607 But rarely are these things discovered. 395 00:16:21,649 --> 00:16:23,109 - Are those boardroom conversations part 396 00:16:23,151 --> 00:16:25,611 of the normal process of doing business, 397 00:16:25,653 --> 00:16:28,740 coming up with those calculations for any company? 398 00:16:28,781 --> 00:16:31,868 - I think it's kind of prudent business. 399 00:16:31,909 --> 00:16:33,911 The question is what do you do with the information at the end. 400 00:16:33,953 --> 00:16:36,998 - Government agencies make similar calculations using 401 00:16:37,039 --> 00:16:41,836 a metric called the value of a statistical life or V.S.L. 402 00:16:41,878 --> 00:16:44,881 Using a mix of scientific studies and market analysis, 403 00:16:44,922 --> 00:16:48,634 different agencies decide on their own VSLs. 404 00:16:48,676 --> 00:16:50,386 Here's how VSLs are used. 405 00:16:50,428 --> 00:16:52,847 In 2007, the Department of Transportation 406 00:16:52,889 --> 00:16:55,975 considered a rule forcing automakers 407 00:16:56,017 --> 00:16:59,228 to install rear seatbelt reminder systems in cars. 408 00:16:59,270 --> 00:17:04,567 They estimated it would save at least 44 lives each year. 409 00:17:04,609 --> 00:17:09,155 But installing it would cost the auto industry 325 million. 410 00:17:09,197 --> 00:17:13,493 At a cost of 7.4 million per life, that amount was higher 411 00:17:13,534 --> 00:17:16,913 than the Department of Transportation's VSL at the time. 412 00:17:16,954 --> 00:17:21,375 So the safety precaution wasn't installed. 413 00:17:21,417 --> 00:17:24,337 Putting a price tag on death incentivizes companies 414 00:17:24,378 --> 00:17:27,048 and government agencies to be responsible. 415 00:17:27,089 --> 00:17:29,801 But that price is determined for us 416 00:17:29,842 --> 00:17:34,180 by outside institutions like judges, juries, and mediators. 417 00:17:34,222 --> 00:17:36,641 But what if we could set our own price? 418 00:17:36,682 --> 00:17:40,686 Would we use the same cold, hard logic as the professionals? 419 00:17:40,728 --> 00:17:44,232 (mid-tempo vibrant music) 420 00:17:47,819 --> 00:17:50,988 Have you ever asked what's your life worth to you? 421 00:17:51,030 --> 00:17:54,200 How much would you charge to risk death? 422 00:17:54,242 --> 00:17:58,663 Abrahan and Francisco make that calculation everyday. 423 00:17:58,704 --> 00:18:01,958 (tense dramatic music) 424 00:18:04,877 --> 00:18:07,755 They harvest goose barnacles from razor-sharp rocks 425 00:18:07,797 --> 00:18:09,507 in the open waters of the Atlantic 426 00:18:09,549 --> 00:18:12,009 off the country's northern coast. 427 00:18:12,051 --> 00:18:15,304 It's a dangerous job that claims lives and pays well 428 00:18:15,346 --> 00:18:17,223 because those barnacles are a delicacy 429 00:18:17,265 --> 00:18:19,433 that are sold at a premium price. 430 00:18:19,475 --> 00:18:21,686 Gourmet diners can pay as much as 100 euros 431 00:18:21,727 --> 00:18:26,107 or nearly 120 American dollars per portion. 432 00:18:27,692 --> 00:18:29,694 How often are there injuries and deaths? 433 00:18:29,735 --> 00:18:30,987 Is it common or? 434 00:18:31,028 --> 00:18:33,322 - Every year there are incidents. 435 00:18:33,364 --> 00:18:37,660 Broken ribs, and unfortunately people dying also. 436 00:18:37,702 --> 00:18:40,872 Two years ago, a barnacle fisher went down to the rocks on his own, 437 00:18:40,913 --> 00:18:43,958 and when he turned up several days later, 438 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:45,918 he was dead. 439 00:18:46,836 --> 00:18:50,089 (tense dramatic music) 440 00:19:06,647 --> 00:19:08,357 - This looks crazy to me, right? 441 00:19:08,399 --> 00:19:10,109 - Even if the sea is calm, 442 00:19:10,151 --> 00:19:12,194 you are always looking for the worst places to go. 443 00:19:12,236 --> 00:19:15,448 in order to get the best barnacles. 444 00:19:15,489 --> 00:19:17,283 - Where is he putting them when he gets them? 445 00:19:17,325 --> 00:19:20,578 - He puts them here inside the t-shirt with a belt. 446 00:19:26,083 --> 00:19:29,420 - That's a lot to pay attention to. 447 00:19:29,462 --> 00:19:32,840 - My mom almost cried when I told her I was getting my barnacle license. 448 00:19:32,882 --> 00:19:34,550 "That's really dangerous!" 449 00:19:34,592 --> 00:19:37,470 - Yeah. Oh, wow. - (speaking in foreign language) 450 00:19:37,511 --> 00:19:38,930 - There's a little panic in his voice. 451 00:19:38,971 --> 00:19:42,433 - (speaking in foreign language) 452 00:19:42,475 --> 00:19:44,977 This is crazy by our standards, 453 00:19:45,019 --> 00:19:46,771 but how does this compare to what you usually deal with? 454 00:19:46,812 --> 00:19:49,273 - Today is a very, very good day. - Okay. 455 00:19:49,315 --> 00:19:51,984 - The sea is calm, you seldom find it like this. 456 00:19:52,026 --> 00:19:54,695 - Would you like to try one? - Sure. 457 00:19:54,737 --> 00:19:56,614 You have to show me how to eat it. 458 00:19:56,656 --> 00:19:59,408 - You just have to suck it. - Just bite it off? 459 00:19:59,450 --> 00:20:01,744 I like this when it's raw. 460 00:20:06,582 --> 00:20:08,084 - It's the consistency of boogers 461 00:20:08,125 --> 00:20:11,087 with the taste of an incredibly clean ocean. 462 00:20:11,128 --> 00:20:12,672 (Abrahan laughs) 463 00:20:12,713 --> 00:20:14,715 I've never eaten a booger! 464 00:20:14,757 --> 00:20:16,384 - I mean neither have I? 465 00:20:16,425 --> 00:20:18,761 (all laugh) 466 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:22,181 Most people might not quit their day job 467 00:20:22,223 --> 00:20:24,934 to do something that looks this dangerous. 468 00:20:24,976 --> 00:20:28,020 I wonder what the incentives are for these guys? 469 00:20:28,062 --> 00:20:30,147 So what do you usually get? What's an average? 470 00:20:30,189 --> 00:20:32,733 - About 500 Euros with conditions today, yes about 500 Euros. 471 00:20:32,775 --> 00:20:35,194 - And then that's split between you two? 472 00:20:35,236 --> 00:20:37,738 - Each one. Each one. - 500 each, holy shit! 473 00:20:37,780 --> 00:20:39,740 So, like $600 for each of you. 474 00:20:39,782 --> 00:20:42,201 So, talk to me about what this place is. 475 00:20:42,243 --> 00:20:44,620 You guys actually come here before you go out on the boats? 476 00:20:44,662 --> 00:20:48,124 - Yes, many times when it's bad and you can't go on a boat, 477 00:20:48,165 --> 00:20:49,792 here there's a path down. 478 00:20:49,834 --> 00:20:53,546 - Oh, you go down this way? How? It's a steep drop. 479 00:20:53,587 --> 00:20:57,258 - Yes, sometimes you can use a rope for the most dangerous places. 480 00:20:57,299 --> 00:21:00,469 (slow reserved music) 481 00:21:00,511 --> 00:21:04,306 A couple of years ago, one of our co-workers was climbing down the cliff, 482 00:21:04,348 --> 00:21:06,767 and he fell between two rocks. 483 00:21:06,809 --> 00:21:08,602 and they had to do a rescue with a helicopter. 484 00:21:08,644 --> 00:21:10,312 - I mean it sounds like the money's really good, 485 00:21:10,354 --> 00:21:11,856 but it also sounds like you're putting yourselves 486 00:21:11,897 --> 00:21:14,900 in pretty serious danger. Is that worth it? 487 00:21:14,942 --> 00:21:18,571 - There is an added value, which is the passion you have for this. 488 00:21:18,612 --> 00:21:20,197 This is an addiction. It's a drug. 489 00:21:20,239 --> 00:21:22,408 - What do you love about it? - The ocean. 490 00:21:22,450 --> 00:21:24,368 - The ocean. - Fishing. 491 00:21:24,410 --> 00:21:25,745 Working for myself. 492 00:21:25,786 --> 00:21:27,163 - Yes. This... 493 00:21:27,204 --> 00:21:29,832 you have to feel it... 494 00:21:29,874 --> 00:21:32,376 to be able to explain it. 495 00:21:32,418 --> 00:21:34,503 (up-tempo lively music) 496 00:21:37,339 --> 00:21:40,551 - [Kal] Just like certain people have decided that gooseneck barnacles are 497 00:21:40,593 --> 00:21:42,887 a delicacy worthy of a high price, 498 00:21:42,928 --> 00:21:46,015 Abrahan and Francisco have decided 499 00:21:46,057 --> 00:21:48,059 the money they're paid is enough 500 00:21:48,100 --> 00:21:51,020 for them to risk their lives. 501 00:21:51,062 --> 00:21:52,813 Here's a look at the invisible calculations 502 00:21:52,855 --> 00:21:54,398 we all make everyday 503 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,860 from a totally different vantage point. 504 00:21:59,695 --> 00:22:02,865 - Ugh, most people don't realize how their decisions 505 00:22:02,907 --> 00:22:05,076 place a value on their own life, 506 00:22:05,117 --> 00:22:07,620 like taking a raise to do a more dangerous job. 507 00:22:07,661 --> 00:22:11,040 Roofers make $4,000 more than other construction workers 508 00:22:11,082 --> 00:22:12,583 because they're five times more likely 509 00:22:12,625 --> 00:22:14,335 to die at work, it's true. 510 00:22:14,376 --> 00:22:16,128 - [Director] And cut, everyone take five. 511 00:22:16,170 --> 00:22:19,381 - Ugh, these choices reflect a cost benefit analysis 512 00:22:19,423 --> 00:22:22,593 of what we're willing to risk to have a life worth living. 513 00:22:22,635 --> 00:22:25,054 I mean the government, they estimate how much money it costs 514 00:22:25,096 --> 00:22:27,389 to prevent a death before putting up street signs 515 00:22:27,431 --> 00:22:29,141 or making people wear a hardhat. 516 00:22:29,183 --> 00:22:30,351 So even if you don't do the math, 517 00:22:30,392 --> 00:22:32,186 you make intuitive calculations 518 00:22:32,228 --> 00:22:34,563 about risk in your life all the time. 519 00:22:34,605 --> 00:22:37,191 Hold me. 520 00:22:37,233 --> 00:22:39,568 I mean, no idiot would play Russian roulette, 521 00:22:39,610 --> 00:22:41,278 not even for a million dollars. 522 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,697 It's not worth the one in six chance of dying, 523 00:22:43,739 --> 00:22:46,117 so you should probably shell out that $6 524 00:22:46,158 --> 00:22:48,077 for a smoke detector to eliminate 525 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,539 the one-in-a-million chance that you're gonna die in a fire. 526 00:22:51,580 --> 00:22:54,291 Put these in my kid's room please, thanks. 527 00:22:54,333 --> 00:22:57,503 Take former 49ers linebacker Chris Borland, for example. 528 00:22:57,545 --> 00:23:00,589 He retired after playing just one season in the NFL 529 00:23:00,631 --> 00:23:02,383 to avoid potential brain injury. 530 00:23:02,424 --> 00:23:05,511 He gave up a three-year, $2.3 million contract 531 00:23:05,553 --> 00:23:07,513 to eliminate that 40% risk. 532 00:23:07,555 --> 00:23:10,057 To him, a brain that can still do math 533 00:23:10,099 --> 00:23:11,851 is worth more than that money. 534 00:23:11,892 --> 00:23:13,227 What's your brain worth, Randy? 535 00:23:13,269 --> 00:23:16,230 - Uh... 536 00:23:16,272 --> 00:23:18,399 - Quick thinking there, pal. 537 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,402 But avoiding risk in life isn't always easy. 538 00:23:21,443 --> 00:23:23,445 I mean, no one is gonna tackle you at a desk job, 539 00:23:23,487 --> 00:23:25,197 but sitting in a chair all day actually 540 00:23:25,239 --> 00:23:27,408 doubles your chance of death by increasing your risk 541 00:23:27,449 --> 00:23:30,786 of diabetes, stroke, cancer, and dementia. 542 00:23:30,828 --> 00:23:35,207 So someone get this murder machine away from me. 543 00:23:35,249 --> 00:23:38,502 Of course, no one would want to eliminate all danger. 544 00:23:38,544 --> 00:23:40,337 I mean, staying in a bubble, 545 00:23:40,379 --> 00:23:42,131 yeah, it might mean you value your life at a billion dollars, 546 00:23:42,173 --> 00:23:43,966 but you couldn't pay me to do that. 547 00:23:44,008 --> 00:23:46,427 Because eliminating risk also means eliminating fun. 548 00:23:46,468 --> 00:23:48,762 I'd have to give up headphones, selfies, escalators, 549 00:23:48,804 --> 00:23:51,390 hot dogs, hot water, Christmas trees, and bed frames, 550 00:23:51,432 --> 00:23:53,142 all known killers. 551 00:23:53,184 --> 00:23:56,020 Falling out of bed kills one in 700,000 Americans every year. 552 00:23:56,061 --> 00:23:57,897 That's more than terrorism. 553 00:23:57,938 --> 00:23:59,773 But I'm not gonna put my mattress on the floor 554 00:23:59,815 --> 00:24:02,818 because I'm no longer 25. 555 00:24:02,860 --> 00:24:03,819 I just look it. 556 00:24:03,861 --> 00:24:06,864 (bell dings) 557 00:24:06,906 --> 00:24:08,991 (slow chiming music) 558 00:24:09,033 --> 00:24:10,492 - Regardless of the price you're willing 559 00:24:10,534 --> 00:24:12,244 to pay to have a full life, 560 00:24:12,286 --> 00:24:15,623 there is one bill that always comes due. 561 00:24:21,212 --> 00:24:23,464 When you die, you may be technically gone, 562 00:24:23,505 --> 00:24:25,633 but there's still a whole financial system built 563 00:24:25,674 --> 00:24:29,887 around what remains, as in your literal remains. 564 00:24:29,929 --> 00:24:32,681 And the Cemetery Church of All Saints is one 565 00:24:32,723 --> 00:24:35,935 of the earliest examples of a corpse economy. 566 00:24:35,976 --> 00:24:37,519 (bell rings) 567 00:24:39,396 --> 00:24:44,151 Wow, how many bones are here and skulls? 568 00:24:44,193 --> 00:24:45,486 - Thousands of them. 569 00:24:45,527 --> 00:24:48,030 About 100,000 long bones, 570 00:24:48,072 --> 00:24:49,949 and about 60,000 skulls. 571 00:24:54,203 --> 00:24:56,497 - [Kal] Filip Velimsky is an archeologist 572 00:24:56,538 --> 00:24:57,957 who works with the church. 573 00:24:57,998 --> 00:25:00,167 According to him, the monastery became 574 00:25:00,209 --> 00:25:03,420 a 14th century sensation, after a monk returned 575 00:25:03,462 --> 00:25:05,047 with a jar of holy soil 576 00:25:05,089 --> 00:25:07,007 from the site of Christ's crucifixion, 577 00:25:07,049 --> 00:25:09,551 and sprinkled it over the cemetery. 578 00:25:09,593 --> 00:25:12,221 It's a legend that made for a powerful sales pitch. 579 00:25:12,263 --> 00:25:15,933 When you're searching for an eternal resting place, 580 00:25:15,975 --> 00:25:19,270 it's all about location, location, location. 581 00:25:19,311 --> 00:25:20,688 - This area was connected 582 00:25:20,729 --> 00:25:22,231 with Jerusalem and Golgotha, 583 00:25:22,273 --> 00:25:24,650 the holy places of Christianity. 584 00:25:24,692 --> 00:25:27,653 And there were some miracles in this area. 585 00:25:27,695 --> 00:25:29,196 So, for Christians, 586 00:25:29,238 --> 00:25:31,532 this was some special place 587 00:25:31,573 --> 00:25:33,534 with some special sense. 588 00:25:33,575 --> 00:25:34,910 - Were they able to charge what they wanted, 589 00:25:34,952 --> 00:25:36,453 or was it a place that was affordable? 590 00:25:36,495 --> 00:25:39,415 - They really must pay quite a lot of money 591 00:25:39,456 --> 00:25:42,543 to have a chance to be buried here in this area. 592 00:25:42,584 --> 00:25:45,879 - Easy resurrection, that's a deal at a steep price, 593 00:25:45,921 --> 00:25:48,757 and that's what the monks charged. 594 00:25:48,799 --> 00:25:52,928 But in the 14th century, the Black Plague decimated Europe. 595 00:25:52,970 --> 00:25:55,472 To make burial room for the millions who perished, 596 00:25:55,514 --> 00:25:58,684 many of the older bodies at the cemetery were dug up, 597 00:25:58,726 --> 00:26:02,896 and the bones repurposed into the very unique decor 598 00:26:02,938 --> 00:26:04,523 now adorning the church, 599 00:26:04,565 --> 00:26:07,985 including a human bone chandelier. 600 00:26:08,027 --> 00:26:11,864 You know, to spruce things up. 601 00:26:11,905 --> 00:26:13,949 This place may look like the predator's house, 602 00:26:13,991 --> 00:26:16,410 but turning these bones into Erector sets 603 00:26:16,452 --> 00:26:19,288 helped keep the vacancy sign lit for new arrivals. 604 00:26:19,330 --> 00:26:21,540 (slow uneasy music) 605 00:26:21,582 --> 00:26:23,208 It seems like the monks who built this place 606 00:26:23,250 --> 00:26:25,669 understood that anxieties about what happened 607 00:26:25,711 --> 00:26:29,465 to bodies and souls after death are powerful 608 00:26:29,506 --> 00:26:31,133 and difficult to cope with. 609 00:26:31,175 --> 00:26:33,302 Like, maybe they knew hundreds of years ago, 610 00:26:33,344 --> 00:26:35,929 anything that helps people deal with those feelings 611 00:26:35,971 --> 00:26:38,724 can be sold, and at a high price. 612 00:26:41,602 --> 00:26:44,980 There was no funeral industry 200 years ago. 613 00:26:45,022 --> 00:26:47,024 Back then, your family dropped you into the ground 614 00:26:47,066 --> 00:26:49,610 at a cemetery or in the backyard, as is, 615 00:26:49,651 --> 00:26:51,153 just like a beloved hamster. 616 00:26:51,195 --> 00:26:52,654 (gun fires) 617 00:26:52,696 --> 00:26:54,281 But when Abraham Lincoln was assassinated, 618 00:26:54,323 --> 00:26:56,617 he became the first president to be preserved 619 00:26:56,658 --> 00:27:00,371 with an update of an ancient technique now called embalming. 620 00:27:00,412 --> 00:27:04,166 So many mourners witnessed Lincoln's shiny preserved body 621 00:27:04,208 --> 00:27:07,669 on its farewell tour, that embalming went viral. 622 00:27:07,711 --> 00:27:10,047 Undertakers capitalized on the trend. 623 00:27:10,089 --> 00:27:12,383 Mortuaries popped up across the United States, 624 00:27:12,424 --> 00:27:14,718 and funeral directors started charging 625 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:18,222 for coffins, viewings, and headstones. 626 00:27:18,263 --> 00:27:21,642 Before long, postmortem makeovers became the norm. 627 00:27:21,683 --> 00:27:23,227 And if you were a political heavyweight 628 00:27:23,268 --> 00:27:25,437 like Vladimir Lenin or Eva Peron, 629 00:27:25,479 --> 00:27:28,065 it became an absolute must. 630 00:27:28,107 --> 00:27:29,441 As for the common folk, 631 00:27:29,483 --> 00:27:31,151 they soon realized they were having 632 00:27:31,193 --> 00:27:35,114 to buy their dead loved ones back at a premium. 633 00:27:36,949 --> 00:27:39,868 They weren't cheap, but they were pretty. 634 00:27:39,910 --> 00:27:41,870 (bell dings) 635 00:27:41,912 --> 00:27:43,497 (slow subdued music) 636 00:27:47,084 --> 00:27:50,003 While America might be in the pocket of big funeral, 637 00:27:50,045 --> 00:27:52,506 the death industry was nearly unknown in Malaysia 638 00:27:52,548 --> 00:27:54,466 until just 30 years ago. 639 00:27:54,508 --> 00:27:55,926 Before then, the Malaysian government 640 00:27:55,968 --> 00:27:57,970 operated the cemeteries, 641 00:27:58,011 --> 00:28:00,514 usually run-down with unprofessional services. 642 00:28:00,556 --> 00:28:02,724 Families had to choose between that 643 00:28:02,766 --> 00:28:06,353 or burying their loved ones on their own land. 644 00:28:06,395 --> 00:28:08,397 But Frank Choo's father had a vision 645 00:28:08,439 --> 00:28:11,608 to build a business model around burial. 646 00:28:11,650 --> 00:28:13,735 I understand that it's a relatively new idea 647 00:28:13,777 --> 00:28:15,904 in Malaysia that there's a place that you can go 648 00:28:15,946 --> 00:28:17,614 for funeral services. 649 00:28:17,656 --> 00:28:19,158 Can you talk about how it started? 650 00:28:19,199 --> 00:28:21,743 - Well, we started probably in the early 80s. 651 00:28:21,785 --> 00:28:24,997 In Malaysia then, all cemeteries belonged to government. 652 00:28:25,038 --> 00:28:28,208 They actually designated land for burial sites. 653 00:28:28,250 --> 00:28:30,085 My late father thought, 654 00:28:30,127 --> 00:28:32,212 "Let me see what happened to the rest of the world." 655 00:28:32,254 --> 00:28:34,882 And he would take us all over the world for holidays. 656 00:28:34,923 --> 00:28:36,800 And part of the itinerary was to look at, 657 00:28:36,842 --> 00:28:39,303 to visit cemeteries or memorial parks. 658 00:28:39,344 --> 00:28:41,597 And in the mid-80s, he decided, 659 00:28:41,638 --> 00:28:44,391 "Okay, I want to bring this back to Malaysia. 660 00:28:49,188 --> 00:28:51,440 We have got all aspects from 661 00:28:51,482 --> 00:28:53,775 mortuary with professional embalming, 662 00:28:53,817 --> 00:28:57,529 we have funeral halls, where people can actually do the wake, 663 00:28:57,571 --> 00:29:00,324 crematory, and finally we've got parks. 664 00:29:00,365 --> 00:29:02,117 - [Kal] Frank's family imported all these 665 00:29:02,159 --> 00:29:03,952 Western style funeral options, 666 00:29:03,994 --> 00:29:05,746 but his success is built on offering 667 00:29:05,787 --> 00:29:09,875 localized cultural premiums and a personal touch. 668 00:29:09,917 --> 00:29:13,253 - This building is where we house ancestral tablets. 669 00:29:13,295 --> 00:29:16,173 And we actually offer prayers by the monks 670 00:29:16,215 --> 00:29:17,549 twice a month. 671 00:29:18,342 --> 00:29:19,635 I'll take you to 672 00:29:19,676 --> 00:29:23,430 where we store the cremated remains. 673 00:29:23,472 --> 00:29:25,015 - [Kal] There are also temples here, 674 00:29:25,057 --> 00:29:27,601 catering to a mix of Buddhism, Christianity, 675 00:29:27,643 --> 00:29:31,063 Hinduism, and traditional Chinese beliefs. 676 00:29:31,104 --> 00:29:33,941 For Malaysia, this is a whole new death economy 677 00:29:33,982 --> 00:29:37,236 with price tags of up to 40,000 ringgit, 678 00:29:37,277 --> 00:29:40,155 or 10,000 U.S. dollars. 679 00:29:40,197 --> 00:29:41,949 No matter where you believe that you'll travel to 680 00:29:41,990 --> 00:29:46,453 in the afterlife, this place is a port of entry. 681 00:29:46,495 --> 00:29:47,579 - [Frank] Hi. 682 00:29:50,791 --> 00:29:52,292 - [Kal] Wow. 683 00:29:54,753 --> 00:29:56,922 - This is where they're going to put their photos. 684 00:29:56,964 --> 00:29:58,966 - Okay. - And the inscriptions. 685 00:29:59,007 --> 00:30:00,676 - And then the urns are inside there? 686 00:30:00,717 --> 00:30:03,762 - Yeah, there will be urns, and these are for couples. 687 00:30:05,097 --> 00:30:07,391 Initially, people were a bit still skeptical 688 00:30:07,432 --> 00:30:09,685 and because most of those people had never experienced 689 00:30:09,726 --> 00:30:11,770 a good sendoff and what is a good 690 00:30:11,812 --> 00:30:15,274 way to memorialize loved ones. 691 00:30:15,315 --> 00:30:16,984 And now, after 30 years, 692 00:30:17,025 --> 00:30:19,653 we have over one hundred memorial parks in the country now. 693 00:30:19,695 --> 00:30:21,738 - Wow. - It popped up everywhere. 694 00:30:21,780 --> 00:30:23,991 - [Kal] Frank's dad proved that funeral services, 695 00:30:24,032 --> 00:30:25,951 just like most successful businesses, 696 00:30:25,993 --> 00:30:30,205 can be tailored to specific markets and people. 697 00:30:30,247 --> 00:30:33,041 But just how specialized will the death market get 698 00:30:33,083 --> 00:30:35,669 in its quest to attract customers? 699 00:30:35,711 --> 00:30:39,631 (lively electric guitar music) 700 00:30:41,592 --> 00:30:44,386 In Hamburg, Germany, HSV football fans, 701 00:30:44,428 --> 00:30:48,432 the U.S. calls it soccer, are total fanatics. 702 00:30:48,473 --> 00:30:50,851 At this giant stadium, rabid sports fans 703 00:30:50,892 --> 00:30:53,186 don't just mourn the loss of a game, 704 00:30:53,228 --> 00:30:54,646 but also their loved ones, 705 00:30:54,688 --> 00:30:56,732 because it's situated right next door 706 00:30:56,773 --> 00:31:00,944 to a cemetery tailored to its unique fans. 707 00:31:00,986 --> 00:31:03,238 Lars Rehder is the grounds keeper. 708 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,824 - The entrance, it's a soccer goal 709 00:31:05,866 --> 00:31:07,492 with the original measure. 710 00:31:07,534 --> 00:31:08,577 - Oh, cool. - Yeah. 711 00:31:08,619 --> 00:31:10,370 People buried here 712 00:31:10,412 --> 00:31:12,289 have the symbol of the club. 713 00:31:12,331 --> 00:31:14,458 - [Kal] How much does it cost for somebody to be buried here? 714 00:31:14,499 --> 00:31:17,711 - Yes, it's about 4,000 dollars 715 00:31:17,753 --> 00:31:20,672 if you want a grave like this behind. 716 00:31:20,714 --> 00:31:24,051 There are twenty people buried in one grave. 717 00:31:24,092 --> 00:31:25,802 - Oh, wow, okay. 718 00:31:25,844 --> 00:31:27,137 And so it's a little bit cheaper. 719 00:31:27,179 --> 00:31:29,431 - Yeah. - Or, if you want 720 00:31:29,473 --> 00:31:32,267 some grave with only two people 721 00:31:32,309 --> 00:31:33,769 for a couple, costs 722 00:31:33,810 --> 00:31:35,646 up to 15,000 dollars. 723 00:31:35,687 --> 00:31:38,982 - [Kal] So, you said the big plot, the big grave, 724 00:31:39,024 --> 00:31:40,317 - 20 people are buried there? - Yes. 725 00:31:40,359 --> 00:31:42,694 - Is that a family? - No, it's not a family. 726 00:31:42,736 --> 00:31:45,238 They could be a fan club, but they share the cost. 727 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:46,823 - Is this where you wanna be buried? 728 00:31:46,865 --> 00:31:48,450 - Yes. - Yeah? 729 00:31:48,492 --> 00:31:49,618 - Yes. I think it's a very nice place. 730 00:31:49,660 --> 00:31:50,911 (upbeat lively music) 731 00:31:50,952 --> 00:31:52,663 - This cemetery gives new meaning 732 00:31:52,704 --> 00:31:55,332 to the term die-hard fan. 733 00:31:55,374 --> 00:31:57,501 Look, I'm a Yankee fan, 734 00:31:57,542 --> 00:31:59,753 but I don't wanna get buried in the Bronx next to Yankee Stadium, 735 00:31:59,795 --> 00:32:01,755 which means I don't love the Yankees as much as I thought I did. 736 00:32:01,797 --> 00:32:05,759 Yes, I understand. But I guess the idea of tying death together 737 00:32:05,801 --> 00:32:08,053 with something you love makes sense. 738 00:32:08,095 --> 00:32:10,681 After all, you can't take it with you. 739 00:32:10,722 --> 00:32:11,932 Or can you? 740 00:32:11,973 --> 00:32:13,600 (traditional Asian music) 741 00:32:19,690 --> 00:32:21,817 Everything in this shop is meant to be taken 742 00:32:21,858 --> 00:32:23,985 with you after you die. 743 00:32:24,027 --> 00:32:25,904 If you need some cock in the afterlife, 744 00:32:25,946 --> 00:32:27,698 you can take that with you. 745 00:32:27,739 --> 00:32:30,075 All of this is made entirely of paper. 746 00:32:30,117 --> 00:32:31,743 Aw, here's what's up. 747 00:32:31,785 --> 00:32:33,203 It's all meant to be burned. 748 00:32:33,245 --> 00:32:35,080 Part of the Taoist religious belief 749 00:32:35,122 --> 00:32:37,249 that you can send material goods to your loved ones 750 00:32:37,290 --> 00:32:40,794 in their afterlife if you burn paper versions of them, 751 00:32:40,836 --> 00:32:43,296 so death doesn't have to be dull. 752 00:32:43,338 --> 00:32:45,090 It's an ancient Chinese ritual, 753 00:32:45,132 --> 00:32:47,592 updated for the modern economy. 754 00:32:47,634 --> 00:32:51,722 This is obviously the tightest one, 'cause it's old school. 755 00:32:51,763 --> 00:32:54,057 It's "Marlbero." 756 00:32:54,099 --> 00:32:56,727 This stuff is fine if you want some 757 00:32:56,768 --> 00:32:58,687 off-the-shelf accessories for eternity, 758 00:32:58,729 --> 00:33:00,397 but if you want the custom goods, 759 00:33:00,439 --> 00:33:02,816 there's only one man to see. 760 00:33:02,858 --> 00:33:06,528 (slow gentle music) 761 00:33:06,570 --> 00:33:10,907 Mr. Ha is known as the king of paper offerings. 762 00:33:10,949 --> 00:33:12,659 I'm here to learn from the master 763 00:33:12,701 --> 00:33:16,371 about the economy of shopping for the recently departed. 764 00:33:17,497 --> 00:33:19,207 - Observing from the angle 765 00:33:19,249 --> 00:33:20,834 of Chinese Taoism or Buddhism, 766 00:33:20,876 --> 00:33:23,170 there's a belief that "valuable things 767 00:33:23,211 --> 00:33:25,964 must be passed down generation to generation." 768 00:33:26,006 --> 00:33:28,216 The idea is that when you burn 769 00:33:28,258 --> 00:33:31,887 these paper offerings in this life, 770 00:33:31,928 --> 00:33:35,974 your beloved ones will receive them in their afterlife. 771 00:33:36,016 --> 00:33:37,517 - When somebody burns a paper good 772 00:33:37,559 --> 00:33:39,644 for their loved one who's passed away, 773 00:33:39,686 --> 00:33:43,231 is the idea symbolic or is it literal? 774 00:33:43,273 --> 00:33:45,734 - These offerings target both the living and the deceased. 775 00:33:45,776 --> 00:33:48,236 For instance, a son who has not yet 776 00:33:48,278 --> 00:33:50,989 burnt a paper house for his dead father, 777 00:33:51,031 --> 00:33:52,866 won't be able to get any sleep at night for months or years, 778 00:33:52,908 --> 00:33:56,328 since he cannot help wondering whether his father 779 00:33:56,369 --> 00:34:00,791 has a house to live in over there in the nether world. 780 00:34:00,832 --> 00:34:02,167 - So, can you give me an example 781 00:34:02,209 --> 00:34:05,212 of what people would ask you to make? 782 00:34:05,253 --> 00:34:07,923 - I remember one such case in which the deceased person 783 00:34:07,964 --> 00:34:09,883 turned out to be the head of Mafia organization. 784 00:34:09,925 --> 00:34:11,134 For his funeral, 785 00:34:11,176 --> 00:34:12,677 we were requested to make many offerings 786 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:14,596 which resembled his henchmen, 787 00:34:14,638 --> 00:34:16,640 holding either a gun or a broadsword, 788 00:34:16,681 --> 00:34:21,770 for the sake of showing his power and authority. 789 00:34:21,812 --> 00:34:23,480 - So the mafia guy could take 790 00:34:23,522 --> 00:34:25,524 all of his boys with him into the afterlife. 791 00:34:25,565 --> 00:34:27,067 - Exactly. 792 00:34:27,108 --> 00:34:28,443 - Do people ever ask 793 00:34:28,485 --> 00:34:29,820 for things that they haven't had? 794 00:34:29,861 --> 00:34:31,446 Like, is it ever aspirational? 795 00:34:31,488 --> 00:34:32,906 - Yes, it is. 796 00:34:32,948 --> 00:34:35,700 That is the true meaning of paper offerings. 797 00:34:35,742 --> 00:34:38,119 If the deceased person has not ridden a Rolls-Royce 798 00:34:38,161 --> 00:34:40,455 or a spacecraft when they were alive, 799 00:34:40,497 --> 00:34:43,583 their family would order paper offerings resembling these articles. 800 00:34:43,625 --> 00:34:46,795 It's like fulfilling the deceased person's dreams. 801 00:34:46,837 --> 00:34:50,257 - If you have a tough financial situation, 802 00:34:50,298 --> 00:34:52,217 is there still an expectation that you buy 803 00:34:52,259 --> 00:34:55,720 the paper goods for your loved one for the ceremony? 804 00:34:55,762 --> 00:34:58,098 - Right. The worst case in China mainland is that 805 00:34:58,139 --> 00:35:00,141 in order to fund an extravagant funeral, 806 00:35:00,183 --> 00:35:02,227 the family of a deceased person would borrow so much money 807 00:35:02,269 --> 00:35:06,690 that they will have to work as long as 8 or 10 years to repay it. 808 00:35:06,731 --> 00:35:09,025 - Wow, so now I see what you're saying, 809 00:35:09,067 --> 00:35:12,320 that's a huge burden on families. 810 00:35:12,362 --> 00:35:14,114 - That's why they sell the house. 811 00:35:14,155 --> 00:35:15,365 - So they'll sell their house in order 812 00:35:15,407 --> 00:35:16,700 to pay for the funeral expenses? 813 00:35:16,741 --> 00:35:18,410 - Correct. 814 00:35:18,451 --> 00:35:20,245 - Some people are willing to make 815 00:35:20,287 --> 00:35:22,873 quite a sacrifice just to make a sacrifice. 816 00:35:22,914 --> 00:35:25,375 Since I'm not sure anyone is going to shell out 817 00:35:25,417 --> 00:35:27,419 big bucks for my afterlife needs, 818 00:35:27,460 --> 00:35:30,881 I've asked Mr. Ha to make me some of my favorite things, 819 00:35:30,922 --> 00:35:33,216 so I can burn them in advance. 820 00:35:33,258 --> 00:35:34,593 It can't hurt, right? 821 00:35:34,634 --> 00:35:38,555 Oh, this is my dog. 822 00:35:38,597 --> 00:35:40,140 (Mr. Ha growls and laughs) 823 00:35:40,181 --> 00:35:43,310 So, she's still a-- You got it right. 824 00:35:43,351 --> 00:35:46,897 She's still alive, and will be forever, 825 00:35:46,938 --> 00:35:49,274 otherwise I would be a mess. 826 00:35:51,192 --> 00:35:53,320 And I associate people qualities to her, 827 00:35:53,361 --> 00:35:54,571 obviously, 'cause she's my dog, 828 00:35:54,613 --> 00:35:56,489 so I shouldn't burn this, right? 829 00:35:56,531 --> 00:35:58,491 - It is not a taboo to burn animal-shaped offerings. 830 00:35:58,533 --> 00:36:01,244 Because they are just animals, not human beings. 831 00:36:01,286 --> 00:36:03,413 It's okay to burn the dog-shaped offering before you leave this world. 832 00:36:03,455 --> 00:36:05,624 You will be reunited one day. 833 00:36:05,665 --> 00:36:07,334 - Oh, okay, so it does work that way. Sweet. 834 00:36:07,375 --> 00:36:09,252 Great, awesome. 835 00:36:09,294 --> 00:36:11,922 So this is so that I have Wi-Fi. 836 00:36:11,963 --> 00:36:13,965 - [Mr. Ha] Mm. - Do you have the password? 837 00:36:14,007 --> 00:36:16,509 - Figure it out by yourself. 838 00:36:16,551 --> 00:36:18,511 - (both laugh) - All right. 839 00:36:18,553 --> 00:36:20,805 Ah, tacos and beans! 840 00:36:20,847 --> 00:36:23,642 - These will fill you up, down there in the netherworld. 841 00:36:23,683 --> 00:36:25,060 - Over and over again, I hope. 842 00:36:25,101 --> 00:36:27,062 That's nice. 843 00:36:27,103 --> 00:36:29,314 This is a tracksuit. 844 00:36:29,356 --> 00:36:31,358 - It looks quite nice on you. 845 00:36:31,399 --> 00:36:33,818 - And then for all of these four things, what do I owe you? 846 00:36:33,860 --> 00:36:37,656 It took us more than 3 days to make all these things. 847 00:36:37,697 --> 00:36:39,491 So, the total fee is $11,000 HKD. 848 00:36:39,532 --> 00:36:42,327 - So it's almost $2,000 which I will give you 849 00:36:42,369 --> 00:36:44,412 on the way out, thank you. 850 00:36:44,454 --> 00:36:45,789 I appreciate it. 851 00:36:47,540 --> 00:36:50,001 (mid-tempo mellow music) 852 00:36:50,043 --> 00:36:53,838 I just paid $2,000 for paper mache. 853 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:55,882 That's a lot of money to burn through, 854 00:36:55,924 --> 00:36:58,218 like, literally set on fire. 855 00:36:58,259 --> 00:37:00,887 People spend all kinds of money on death, 856 00:37:00,929 --> 00:37:03,974 and since none of us know for sure what's on the other side, 857 00:37:04,015 --> 00:37:09,521 it's hard to argue with any amount someone wants to lay out. 858 00:37:09,562 --> 00:37:11,815 Still, I wonder, are the economic choices 859 00:37:11,856 --> 00:37:17,195 we make around death based in any kind of reason? 860 00:37:17,237 --> 00:37:18,947 Why do we think we need to use money 861 00:37:18,989 --> 00:37:21,032 to say goodbye to our loved ones anyway? 862 00:37:23,034 --> 00:37:24,995 (slow tranquil music) 863 00:37:31,543 --> 00:37:34,087 Caitlin Doughty makes her living on death. 864 00:37:34,129 --> 00:37:36,423 But for a mortician, she has some radical views 865 00:37:36,464 --> 00:37:40,135 on what drives the funeral economy. 866 00:37:40,176 --> 00:37:45,265 Just the idea that you've gotta take your loved one 867 00:37:45,306 --> 00:37:48,184 to a funeral home and, like, not be involved 868 00:37:48,226 --> 00:37:50,353 in that process except for showing up to the funeral, 869 00:37:50,395 --> 00:37:52,272 that's, I just always thought, well, 870 00:37:52,313 --> 00:37:54,566 - that's just what you have to do. - Yeah. 871 00:37:54,607 --> 00:37:55,984 - But legally, you don't even have to do that, right? 872 00:37:56,026 --> 00:37:58,403 - No, part of what I do now 873 00:37:58,445 --> 00:38:00,196 in sort of a public advocate sense 874 00:38:00,238 --> 00:38:02,699 is tell people you can be involved. 875 00:38:02,741 --> 00:38:04,701 There are other options for your funerals. 876 00:38:04,743 --> 00:38:06,036 They could be less expensive. 877 00:38:06,077 --> 00:38:07,704 They can be more meaningful. 878 00:38:07,746 --> 00:38:09,205 And there are a ton of things 879 00:38:09,247 --> 00:38:11,499 that are safe and legal for your dead bodies 880 00:38:11,541 --> 00:38:14,252 that you may have no idea are out there. 881 00:38:14,294 --> 00:38:16,087 I think what's so interesting 882 00:38:16,129 --> 00:38:18,006 about death around the world is 883 00:38:18,048 --> 00:38:21,801 that we've really kind of exported the worst parts 884 00:38:21,843 --> 00:38:23,511 of American culture around the world. 885 00:38:23,553 --> 00:38:26,139 - Even in death? - Even in death. 886 00:38:26,181 --> 00:38:29,768 - Okay. - The death we export is capitalistic death. 887 00:38:29,809 --> 00:38:33,521 It's saying that the more that you buy for your loved one, 888 00:38:33,563 --> 00:38:34,939 the more that you care about them. 889 00:38:34,981 --> 00:38:36,316 And we really need to do a better job 890 00:38:36,357 --> 00:38:37,984 of divorcing those things. 891 00:38:38,026 --> 00:38:40,278 - Can you talk me through just the basic sort of 892 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:44,074 what drew you to this career, and what you love about it? 893 00:38:44,115 --> 00:38:46,159 - Absolutely, I have been in the funeral industry 894 00:38:46,201 --> 00:38:50,246 about 10 years, and I started as a crematory operator. 895 00:38:50,288 --> 00:38:52,207 I started as the person in the back 896 00:38:52,248 --> 00:38:55,877 with the big industrial machines cremating the bodies. 897 00:38:55,919 --> 00:38:57,462 The first thing I noticed is 898 00:38:57,504 --> 00:39:00,632 that I was usually the only one there. 899 00:39:00,673 --> 00:39:02,258 There was no family. 900 00:39:02,300 --> 00:39:04,886 It was just me cremating Mom or Dad or your sister, 901 00:39:04,928 --> 00:39:06,096 and that was shocking to me. 902 00:39:06,137 --> 00:39:07,430 Why am I the only one here? 903 00:39:07,472 --> 00:39:09,265 I came to understand over time 904 00:39:09,307 --> 00:39:13,228 that it's really because our society doesn't tell us 905 00:39:13,269 --> 00:39:16,439 we're supposed to be involved with death and with funerals. 906 00:39:16,481 --> 00:39:17,899 That we're supposed to show up, 907 00:39:17,941 --> 00:39:20,360 or that we even are allowed to do that. 908 00:39:20,401 --> 00:39:24,114 150 years ago, the American way of death 909 00:39:24,155 --> 00:39:26,699 was completely taken care of by the family. 910 00:39:26,741 --> 00:39:28,660 Someone dies in the house, 911 00:39:28,701 --> 00:39:30,620 they're taken care of in the house. 912 00:39:30,662 --> 00:39:32,914 Your neighbor makes the wooden casket. 913 00:39:32,956 --> 00:39:35,333 You carry it on your shoulders to the grave. 914 00:39:35,375 --> 00:39:37,919 It's completely family and community involved. 915 00:39:37,961 --> 00:39:39,754 Turn of the 20th century, 916 00:39:39,796 --> 00:39:42,340 you have these guys who come in and are like, 917 00:39:42,382 --> 00:39:44,884 oh, interesting, we can make money doing this. 918 00:39:44,926 --> 00:39:48,930 We can actually it's more safe and sanitary 919 00:39:48,972 --> 00:39:50,223 if we take your bodies, 920 00:39:50,265 --> 00:39:51,933 and we take care of them 921 00:39:51,975 --> 00:39:53,685 and you just pay us to do it. 922 00:39:53,726 --> 00:39:55,687 And over the last 100 years, 923 00:39:55,728 --> 00:39:57,981 we've all kind of been a little brainwashed into thinking 924 00:39:58,022 --> 00:40:01,860 that's what's the safe and legal manner of doing this. 925 00:40:01,901 --> 00:40:03,528 And that's just not true. 926 00:40:03,570 --> 00:40:05,071 You don't have to hand over the body 927 00:40:05,113 --> 00:40:08,032 to a funeral director to chemically preserve 928 00:40:08,074 --> 00:40:11,035 and essentially sell back to you as a product. 929 00:40:11,077 --> 00:40:14,038 - [Kal] Yeah. - You can have a natural burial, 930 00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:16,583 which is just a simple wicker casket 931 00:40:16,624 --> 00:40:18,918 or shroud in a shallow hole. 932 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,255 And you really can decompose into the earth around it, 933 00:40:22,297 --> 00:40:24,299 and grow into a tree or grow into a shrub, 934 00:40:24,340 --> 00:40:26,301 or a flower bush, something lovely. 935 00:40:26,342 --> 00:40:29,012 - [Kal] Okay, so this is a shroud. 936 00:40:29,053 --> 00:40:31,306 - This is a shroud. You wanna try it out? 937 00:40:31,347 --> 00:40:33,224 - [Kal] Yeah, I do. - [Caitlin] You wanna lay back? 938 00:40:33,266 --> 00:40:35,351 - Sure. - Let the adventure begin. 939 00:40:35,393 --> 00:40:38,688 - All right. - We just bring the side around like so. 940 00:40:38,730 --> 00:40:41,149 I'll leave your head exposed. 941 00:40:42,442 --> 00:40:44,319 - [Kal] This is like camping. 942 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,196 - (laughs) It is a little bit like camping, you're right. 943 00:40:46,237 --> 00:40:48,281 Okay, we're tying you in here. 944 00:40:48,323 --> 00:40:50,533 - [Kal] Nobody tucks you in like this. 945 00:40:50,575 --> 00:40:52,410 - Hi, I'm your camp monitor, 946 00:40:52,452 --> 00:40:54,245 hope you're enjoying your time at Camp Death. 947 00:40:54,287 --> 00:40:57,373 - I'm telling you, I could pass out for the night like this. 948 00:40:57,415 --> 00:40:59,125 - (laughs) Wait till we put it over your face. 949 00:40:59,167 --> 00:41:00,543 We'll see how you feel about it. 950 00:41:00,585 --> 00:41:02,670 - Okay, you ready for this? - Yep. 951 00:41:02,712 --> 00:41:04,505 - This is a big moment. - Bye, guys. 952 00:41:08,843 --> 00:41:10,720 - If you can't breathe, you have to let me know. 953 00:41:10,762 --> 00:41:12,764 - [Kal] Oh, I'll let you know. 954 00:41:12,805 --> 00:41:15,099 - "Local Mortician Kills Man" is not a headline that I want. 955 00:41:15,141 --> 00:41:18,144 - [Kal] Well, I guess if I die, we're all set, right? 956 00:41:18,186 --> 00:41:20,355 But I mean there's nothing left to do, you've done it. 957 00:41:20,396 --> 00:41:22,565 You can just dig the hole. 958 00:41:26,069 --> 00:41:29,447 - Okay, you, my friend, are shrouded. 959 00:41:29,489 --> 00:41:30,698 How are you feeling? 960 00:41:30,740 --> 00:41:32,033 - [Kal] Not bad. 961 00:41:32,075 --> 00:41:33,660 - You look good. You look gorgeous. 962 00:41:33,701 --> 00:41:35,662 - [Kal] Yeah, thank you. 963 00:41:35,703 --> 00:41:38,206 I get it. I mean, if this is an option, 964 00:41:38,248 --> 00:41:41,125 why would you wanna be stuck in a box? 965 00:41:41,167 --> 00:41:44,337 (slow delicate music) 966 00:41:46,589 --> 00:41:48,841 Grief can lead us to some radical choices, 967 00:41:48,883 --> 00:41:51,761 and a lot of them are less than economical. 968 00:41:51,803 --> 00:41:55,640 There's no arguing that there's a booming economy 969 00:41:55,682 --> 00:41:58,810 built around every side of death. 970 00:41:58,851 --> 00:42:02,647 Mourning our dearly departed loved ones will cost us. 971 00:42:02,689 --> 00:42:05,900 Meanwhile, losing someone to unexpected circumstances 972 00:42:05,942 --> 00:42:09,320 could lead to crazy compensation. 973 00:42:09,362 --> 00:42:11,155 And if I wanna take out my enemies, 974 00:42:11,197 --> 00:42:13,950 I now know that I'd better bring cash. 975 00:42:15,535 --> 00:42:18,246 Making the calculations for these choices 976 00:42:18,288 --> 00:42:20,039 can often be messy, 977 00:42:20,081 --> 00:42:22,583 but spending money in the death economy seems 978 00:42:22,625 --> 00:42:25,712 to buy relief from the existential dread 979 00:42:25,753 --> 00:42:30,174 that arises with the knowledge that death is coming 980 00:42:30,216 --> 00:42:31,384 for all of us. 981 00:42:33,636 --> 00:42:36,180 And now, puppies. 982 00:42:36,222 --> 00:42:38,308 (upbeat cheerful music) 983 00:43:02,457 --> 00:43:04,208 - [Man] Down mark. - Get out of my office. 984 00:43:04,250 --> 00:43:05,877 - Do you validate parking by chance? 985 00:43:05,918 --> 00:43:08,421 - Nope. - Okay. 986 00:43:08,463 --> 00:43:10,089 - Have a good Easter. 987 00:43:10,131 --> 00:43:11,215 - Yep. - (door thuds) 988 00:43:11,257 --> 00:43:12,508 (all laugh) 989 00:43:14,427 --> 00:43:16,721 - Please leave. - Thank you, 990 00:43:16,763 --> 00:43:18,723 Do you know of any good attorneys? 991 00:43:18,765 --> 00:43:20,391 - I'll call the police. 992 00:43:20,433 --> 00:43:21,601 - Do you know Sting? 993 00:43:21,642 --> 00:43:23,603 - (all laugh) - (door thuds) 994 00:43:23,644 --> 00:43:24,812 - [Client] The worst joke. 995 00:43:24,854 --> 00:43:27,273 - Compensate your widow if she loses 996 00:43:27,315 --> 00:43:28,399 the pleasure of your sex. 997 00:43:28,441 --> 00:43:29,984 (all laugh) 998 00:43:30,026 --> 00:43:32,028 - Would you like to have the pleasure of my sex? 999 00:43:32,070 --> 00:43:34,072 - It sounds like a fuckin' weird Victorian novel. 1000 00:43:34,113 --> 00:43:36,449 - I have to say that to my wife tonight. 1001 00:43:36,491 --> 00:43:39,327 I have to write it down, 'cause I'm gonna say that to my wife. 1002 00:43:39,369 --> 00:43:40,912 Would you like the pleasure of my sex tonight? 1003 00:43:40,953 --> 00:43:42,413 (all laugh) 1004 00:43:44,499 --> 00:43:45,708 - [Attorney] Oh, shit. 1005 00:43:45,750 --> 00:43:47,668 (laughing) Shit. 1006 00:43:49,670 --> 00:43:51,714 (whip snaps)