1 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:17,400 [man] A lot of things happened, you know, in the year kind of all around that event. 2 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:25,240 Everybody in my life, like, they didn't believe it. 3 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,800 "Not Robert, not the Robert we know." But a lot didn't know me as well as they thought they did either. 4 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:39,480 It wasn't something I really wanted to do, 5 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:44,200 but once it was kind of agreed upon that I would do it, 6 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:46,920 [stammers] it just really spun out of control. 7 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:50,120 Very quickly. 8 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:16,960 There was no conversation about what was gonna happen 9 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:18,880 when we got to where we were going. 10 00:01:21,960 --> 00:01:27,560 Things had taken a terrible turn, and it just got worse. 11 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:36,960 [man 1] And I walked up, I fired one shot. 12 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:39,400 And as I got closer, I fired one more shot. 13 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,240 [man 2] She was shot through the cheek and it stopped in her jaw. 14 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:49,760 [man 3] I drove him around behind a desk and I stabbed him approximately 25 times. 15 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:55,880 [man 4] I couldn't believe it. 16 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:59,200 I just thought I can't believe I just killed somebody. 17 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:06,240 [man 5] I don't feel bad about it. [laughs] 18 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,960 [man 6] I started stabbing him, stabbing the guy on the couch. 19 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:08,160 [producer] Just go one, two, three, four-- 20 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:09,080 One, two, three. 21 00:03:10,640 --> 00:03:14,560 One, two, three, four... 22 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:24,520 [Shafer] I was born and raised in Salina, Kansas in August, 1970. 23 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:31,680 I'm the ninth of 11 children and the sixth of six boys. 24 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:37,040 A Catholic family. My father was military, uh, Army. 25 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:40,560 So previous to my birth, my family moved around quite a lot. 26 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,520 Um, my father passed in August 1977, 27 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:48,360 and kind of the dynamic of my family changed. 28 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:53,560 Single mother, but she brought another man into the picture. 29 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:58,640 ,Once my father passed it really changed me. 30 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:03,160 My downward spiral can be easily tracked from that day forward. 31 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,680 For 12 years, I kinda did what I wanted, how I wanted, when I wanted. 32 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,600 And it just evolved into criminal type behavior. 33 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:18,080 Minor stuff, petty theft and vandalism, 34 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:20,240 and just being, you know, in this country 35 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:23,240 what we call kind of a miscreant or a delinquent. 36 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:24,160 Um... 37 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:28,160 And the drugs and alcohol came at 9. 38 00:04:30,280 --> 00:04:31,960 I would take alcohol to school, 39 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,120 and while we're at recess and the other kids were playing, 40 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:36,240 I would sneak off and try to drink alcohol. 41 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:40,560 It's crazy, and people didn't even know, but I got away with it 42 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:42,920 because I didn't look like I would do that. 43 00:04:43,280 --> 00:04:47,520 And they knew I was sad about my father, so they kind of left me be. 44 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,280 My first serious brush with the law... 45 00:04:57,840 --> 00:04:59,160 I had some more... 46 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:04,800 more than minor before, you know, my case now, 47 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:06,960 um, but they were nothing serious. 48 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:08,240 I stole a car. 49 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:13,160 I was with a girl and we argued, and so she reported the car stolen. 50 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:15,560 That was-- And I was in the wrong. 51 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,560 She did the only thing she could do and it cost me. 52 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:21,040 That was, that almost put me in prison. 53 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,800 And then I did it again a couple years later with another girl, 54 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,560 and didn't learn my lesson the first time and that was-- I was actually sentenced to prison in Oklahoma for that, 55 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:31,480 and they gave me probation. 56 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:39,520 And three months later, I managed to find myself in this case. 57 00:05:47,280 --> 00:05:50,360 My co-defendant, Steinmeyer, I worked with him, 58 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:55,760 and, um, maybe we were in some way kinda kindred spirits. 59 00:05:55,840 --> 00:05:58,240 He was a little bit younger than me, but a lot like me, 60 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:00,440 maybe more of the aggressive type. 61 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,120 But I liked him because he was a lot like me 62 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:07,120 when I was a little bit younger than him. 63 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:14,040 We didn't really become close until maybe about a month 64 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:15,400 before the murders happened. 65 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:18,040 But in that month, we crammed a lot in. 66 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,440 Girls and partying, drinking underage, 67 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,360 and messing with marijuana and cocaine and meth. 68 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:30,560 Steinmeyer, he bragged a lot, 69 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:34,560 and he had talked a lot previously about robbing people, committing various crimes. 70 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:39,240 I really, you know, I talk a lot, but I wasn't really into all that. 71 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:46,640 When he brought it up, I initially just kind of, uh, said no, 72 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:47,960 and it was no. 73 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:49,680 I mean, you can't make me do it. 74 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:57,680 But as the day wore on, I bit. 75 00:06:57,760 --> 00:06:58,960 I said, "Okay." 76 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,320 And within an hour after that, we were on our way. 77 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:14,600 The planning of what was supposed to be a robbery 78 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:16,600 had nothing to do with killing anybody. 79 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,240 That never played into it, initially. 80 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,400 [stammers] It just really spun out of control. 81 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,000 [Shafer] We met the victims at Blanchette Landing, 82 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:49,400 and, this is a word that, um, it's kinda tough to use, 83 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:53,040 it feels like predator and prey, but that is in fact what it was. 84 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:55,480 We kinda stalked the victims. 85 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:00,200 It was dark and they were quite a distance aways, away from us, 86 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:02,920 but as we approached them, we could tell that it was two men, 87 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:07,680 and at one point they kissed. 88 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:19,080 We knew that people of a homosexual preference might be easier targets. 89 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:21,280 When you're looking for somebody to rob, 90 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:25,360 you certainly don't wanna pick the 6-foot-8, 300-pound bruiser. 91 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,360 You wanna pick somebody that may be an easy victim. 92 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:36,280 They thought it was unusual we were out this late at night. 93 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:37,960 We both looked young. 94 00:08:38,159 --> 00:08:39,919 And my mugshot from that time will tell you 95 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,440 I look like I was about 12, not 19. 96 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:44,760 Um, "What are you doing out so late?" 97 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:47,240 Well, we just came up with a quick story 98 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:51,160 about we needed to get to this girl's house about ten miles away, 99 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:52,640 "Will you give us a ride?" "Sure." 100 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:56,280 And that's how we ended up in the car with them. 101 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:05,160 They had been drinking. Uh, they were both quite intoxicated. 102 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:09,680 We had them take us a few places like houses we were looking for, 103 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:11,480 we didn't know even where we were. 104 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:15,360 I knew I had a gun, 105 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:21,120 at that point an unloaded gun. I had the bullets in my pocket. 106 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,600 We got to a point where they stopped, and like, "This-- Enough." 107 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:37,000 You're having us, like, drive round in circles, so..." 108 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:39,920 That's when we were going to rob them, just when we got out of the car. 109 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:45,560 There was a struggle, and... 110 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:49,960 While I fought with Mr. Young on the driver's side of the car, 111 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:55,360 uh, Steinmeyer fought with the passenger, Mr. Parker, on the passenger side. 112 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,920 Mr. Parker, on the other side, had Steinmeyer down on the ground 113 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:03,080 and I pointed the gun at him and told him to get off, 114 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:05,840 and then we all got in the car. I told them to get in the car. 115 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:13,040 And that's where it went to a kidnapping. 116 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:20,800 I just tell him to drive. 117 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,320 The tension was-- was thick. 118 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:34,440 I put the bullets in the gun. 119 00:10:42,560 --> 00:10:44,840 We ended up on Silver's Road 120 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:47,440 and, you know, we'll just stop the car here. 121 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:48,920 I just told them to stop the car. 122 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:52,840 "Open the door, let us out." 123 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,880 That's what I said and Mr. Parker let Steinmeyer out 124 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,120 and they ended up in a confrontation immediately. 125 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,160 And as I was getting out of the car, 126 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:03,640 I ended up in a confrontation with Mr. Young. 127 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:08,160 It was just nothing said, it just happened that quick. 128 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:16,800 While I was struggling with Mr. Young, Mr. Parker took off running down the road. 129 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:20,480 I chased him. 130 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,120 He was maybe 50 feet ahead of me at that point. 131 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:26,800 Um, he wasn't running fast, um, 132 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,080 he was running not even in a straight line. 133 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:32,920 The road was uneven and he stumbled, 134 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,080 and as he stumbled, I fired one shot. 135 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:37,160 [gunshot] 136 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:42,920 I know now that that shot missed. 137 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:46,240 But he did stumble into the ditch at that point 138 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,040 and I closed the distance, and as I walked up, I fired one more shot... 139 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:54,960 [gunshot] 140 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:57,000 ...and as I got closer, I fired one more shot. 141 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:04,120 One hit above the eye and one hit below the eye. 142 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:11,400 Steinmeyer was still at the rear of the vehicle 143 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,920 and Mr. Young was at the front of the vehicle in the ditch. 144 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:19,560 And he's trying to kinda scale his way out of the ditch, 145 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:22,280 it was wet and muddy, and I fired one shot. 146 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:23,640 [gunshot] 147 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:27,640 And he fell backwards, and I jumped down in the ditch 148 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,120 -and kind of at the same time, I fired... -[gunshot] 149 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:31,800 ...and one shot hit him in the forearm, 150 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,320 it was kind of a through-and-through wound. 151 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:39,000 And somehow or another, he turned and I fired one more shot. 152 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:40,520 [gunshot] That was it. 153 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,880 The shooting happened and it was all over within... 154 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:59,680 30 seconds maybe. It was just over. 155 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:08,400 And it was just silence. 156 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:30,560 Steinmeyer and I talked about this part. 157 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:34,320 Not the murders, but how we would tell the story. 158 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:36,640 You say you did one, I'll say I did one. 159 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,720 That's what partners do, um... 160 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:43,160 He didn't wanna turn himself in, 161 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,800 and I didn't make him, but eventually he-- 162 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:49,480 [stammers] I don't know why he did. 163 00:13:49,560 --> 00:13:51,760 I know why I did, I was trying to get away with it. And if you turn yourself in, if you run, you look guilty. 164 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:55,560 Everybody knows that, right? 165 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,000 So we turned our self in and that was the story. 166 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:00,280 You say I shot one, and I'll say you shot one, 167 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,000 and there was a homosexual advance 168 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,280 and that's kinda how the story went from there. 169 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:27,440 [man] My Uncle Jerry was a super nice guy. 170 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,560 He would do anything for you. He never met a stranger. 171 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:36,840 Everything was funny to him, he never took nothing serious. 172 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:39,200 Um, he was just out for a good time. 173 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:45,440 If you wanted to do something, he was there with you. 174 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,880 Whatever he had was yours, and he was just that type of guy. 175 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:52,280 He's just, you know, anxious to help out, anxious to do anything for you. 176 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:56,200 Denny and him hung out quite a bit. 177 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:00,240 The only thing I really knew about Denny was that he was gay 178 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:02,480 and that a woman broke his heart 179 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,080 and that he was never gonna be with a woman again. 180 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:12,840 When we were told about Jerry, 181 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:15,400 I think we were in disbelief. 182 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:17,560 I mean, I don't think none of us believed it. 183 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:23,800 He wasn't the type to start something, or a reason for him to be killed, 184 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:25,240 there was no reason to. 185 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:29,880 He was 40-something years old, his knee, he couldn't walk, he had a bad heart. 186 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,600 A 19-year-old could have knocked him down 187 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:36,480 and, you know, got him off him or whatever without much effort. 188 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,000 When Jerry died, my whole family was hurt. 189 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,280 I think I've seen my mother cry twice in my lifetime, 190 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:48,480 and that was one of them. 191 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,880 On Robert Shafer's court dates, my mother would never go. 192 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:01,640 My grandmother went and my sister went. 193 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:04,280 Um, they would come back and give us little information. 194 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:08,920 I remember my sister telling me he was a young, good-looking kid 195 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:10,160 until he opened his mouth. 196 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:12,880 Then she said he was a cocky bastard. 197 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:15,560 I'm not sure why she said that, 198 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,000 but when he opened his mouth, she instantly hated him. 199 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:35,760 [man] My name's Phil Groenweghe, I'm the Chief Trial Attorney 200 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,240 and Assistant Prosecuting Attorney here in St. Charles County, Missouri. 201 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:44,600 We'll usually get two or three murder cases a year. 202 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:47,920 Um, not common, but it happens, 203 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:52,840 and one of the duties I have is to prosecute those cases. 204 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:03,520 The first impression when Shafer and Steinmeyer turned themselves in, 205 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:08,160 uh, Shafer gave a statement which frankly didn't quite ring true to me. 206 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:10,520 It didn't seem very plausible. 207 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:12,520 They claimed that they were hitchhiking, 208 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,680 they were picked up by two men who they said were gay. 209 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,320 And that the men tried to sexually assault them 210 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:20,640 and that Shafer and Steinmeyer 211 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:23,840 managed to get a gun away from one of the two men, 212 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,160 and in self-defense, shot them. 213 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,760 The problem is, one of the victims was shot twice in the head, 214 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:31,400 the other was shot once in the head. 215 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:35,640 That doesn't seem like the kind of wounds that are typically inflicted by someone 216 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:40,000 who's just trying to fight off an attacker. 217 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,200 I didn't believe that initial version. 218 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:50,840 But that's not unusual when people come in to confess to the police. 219 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,240 They usually have a version they wanna sell 220 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,320 that makes them look, uh, better than the truth would. 221 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,400 Shafer struck me as very manipulative. 222 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:05,960 He struck me as very cruel. 223 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:10,560 I also think he overestimated, significantly, his intellect. 224 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,000 He's not nearly as smart as he thought he was. 225 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,080 To him, the fact that these victims were gay, 226 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,600 he almost viewed that as a mitigating factor, 227 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:24,680 that-- that everyone would understand why he would wanna kill two gay men. 228 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:28,120 And he had some real issues with that. 229 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,440 And, um, I don't know why. 230 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:50,960 [birds chirping] 231 00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:58,280 So when we were kids, this was a very, very quiet neighborhood. 232 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,840 Um, all of our, you know, our friends lived on Custer... 233 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:06,520 or Sheridan, Merill. 234 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:10,520 They're all American generals. So we call it the Generals' streets. 235 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:18,680 My mother was raised in an orphanage by Catholic nuns. 236 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:20,920 Very strict. 237 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:22,680 She didn't know how to be a mother. 238 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:27,520 Even though she had all these children, she didn't know how to be a mother. 239 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,520 We didn't get the hugs and the "I love yous" 240 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,200 and the affirmations that children need. 241 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:42,840 My mom and stepdad would get into some altercation. She'd want him to leave. 242 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:45,480 She'd call the police, and then didn't want him to leave. 243 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:47,400 It just was always something. 244 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,520 And that's where we grew up. 245 00:20:54,360 --> 00:20:59,080 There were 11 kids and two adults in that house. 246 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:01,200 As small as it is. 247 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,000 I don't remember a happy holiday. 248 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:08,720 I don't remember... 249 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,400 just any happy times within the home. 250 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:17,600 The happy times were when us kids were playing on the railroad tracks. 251 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:21,080 There was a place over to the right that we built forts. 252 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:26,560 And I think we all really enjoyed school. Because school wasn't home. 253 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:35,320 He was just such a happy boy. 254 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:39,080 [stammers] And a people person. Everybody loved him. 255 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:40,600 You know, he knew everyone. 256 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:44,280 We called him, "Nosey, rosey news reporter." 257 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:50,600 Because he knew the current events, everything that was going on. 258 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:57,960 But yet for some reason, he just got blamed for everything. 259 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:03,840 He just couldn't do anything right. He was... 260 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:08,440 He was getting spankings all the time, or just beatings, basically. 261 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:13,440 It never affected him, though. He was happy. 262 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,200 He always had a smile on his face and rosy cheeks, 263 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:21,640 and was never upset or cried even. 264 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:30,120 He liked to, you know, maybe steal a thing or two, but he always got caught. 265 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:34,320 So why he ever continued to do it was always... always baffled us. 266 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,880 The only way that I could get away from the dysfunction was to leave. 267 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,400 Even at 15, I struggled with doing that 268 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,920 because I knew I was leaving four still there. 269 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,520 But the only one I really worried about was Robert. 270 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:01,840 I didn't come back for a long time. 271 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,640 Robert, he had gone into the Navy for a brief period. 272 00:23:07,120 --> 00:23:10,040 And then after that, he didn't want to come back to Salina. 273 00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:15,000 So, you know, I said, "Well, come live with us in St. Charles." 274 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:17,560 And things were going good. 275 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,440 I mean, he babysat my son, my two, three-year-old son. 276 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:28,000 Then, you know, obviously, about six, nine months later is... 277 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:30,320 when that happened. 278 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:37,880 [insects chirping] 279 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,720 [man] When I first met Robert, it was in second grade, 280 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,520 and Robert just blurted out, 281 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,480 yelled out, "I'm Elvis Presley's-- Elvis Presley is my brother!" 282 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,200 And, obviously, I knew that was a lie, 283 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:19,080 but yet, our home... our home lives and energies just pulled us together. 284 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:21,160 And the teacher said 285 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:25,640 it was like a dark cloud of energy, and it scared the hell out of her. 286 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:29,440 But nobody could break that bond since. 287 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,920 Robert was a stunt man, a wild child. 288 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,720 Always had to try to outdo everybody because that was his style, 289 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,600 and, uh, the more dangerous the better. 290 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,440 We played around the trains when they were stopped all the time. 291 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,440 Uh, however, Robert had to take it to another level, 292 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,160 and jump on or climb on a moving train, 293 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,400 and climb all the way up it and jump from one car to another. 294 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,400 And here I am thinking he's gonna die. 295 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,560 This is the last time I'm gonna see my friend, and... 296 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,080 You know, I'm like, "Get down! Don't do it! 297 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,200 No, you're taking it too far!" 298 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,640 He stressed me the hell out, you know. 299 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:19,320 As Robert and I got older, 300 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,440 we'd drive around town with a group of friends, 301 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,920 and we'd go to the park and there'd be some gay people over there, 302 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,200 and sometimes we would cozy up to them 303 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,440 while the other one is taking all their belongings, and... 304 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,600 I don't know why we started doing that. 305 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,360 It was maybe just the thrill of it, I guess, I'm not sure. 306 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,760 What we didn't know is the oldest one in the group 307 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,200 was leaving with one of the gay guys, having sex with them and then coming back. 308 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:49,720 We didn't know that. 309 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,120 I don't think that I ever thought 310 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,080 Robert would do the crime that he did to be in jail. 311 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:06,680 However, quite a few people always figured that's where he'd end up. 312 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:13,040 People thought it'd be stealing a car, and hurting a cop, or something like that. 313 00:26:13,120 --> 00:26:17,000 Nobody ever thought it would be killing two gay people. 314 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,680 That kinda violence is not in his nature. 315 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:27,760 Other violence, maybe beating up a girl, his girlfriend or something. 316 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:32,080 You know, okay, he's done that a few times. 317 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,840 And Robert could get hundreds of women! 318 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,240 He had a wonderful skin complexion, 319 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,840 he had beautiful words with the ladies, 320 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:44,920 he could lay it down even in grade school. 321 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:48,760 They wanted the bad boy that Robert was. 322 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,800 When he slept with them, sometimes he was conflicted or confused or whatever, 323 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:56,640 and that's when he'd do things 324 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,560 like maybe beating up his girlfriend or something. 325 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,000 Tear up the girl's house or something. 326 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:52,480 [Kiel] I contacted Robert Shafer 327 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:57,720 when I was going through pictures and stuff of my Uncle Jerry in, um, 2014. 328 00:27:58,120 --> 00:28:01,080 It kind of brought back all the stuff that happened back then. 329 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:06,240 It was 24 years later, he wasn't a 19-year-old kid no more. 330 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,000 I was interested to see what kind of person he was. 331 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:14,240 And, um, at that time he was still claiming that David killed one of them 332 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,200 and that he killed one and he's the one who ended up with it. 333 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,040 And the way he made it sound was like, um... 334 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:23,360 David was more of the hot head, 335 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,600 David was more of the wound-up one than Robert was. 336 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:28,800 So I just reached out to him and... 337 00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:32,640 "You know, Robert, you spent a long time in prison, 338 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,240 I've read up a lot of things and it sounds like you got the short end of the stick. 339 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,200 And if you ever have the chance to get free, we're okay with that." 340 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:44,760 I almost felt a little bit sorry for the guy. 341 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:47,880 Doing something when you're 19, 342 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,480 and being known for the worst thing you ever did in your life, 343 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:52,800 that's all he's ever known for. 344 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,000 I just wanted to let him know we forgive him. 345 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:10,600 Robert warns me in this letter that, um, the details of what happened 346 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,840 on April 29th, 1990, 347 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,760 that it's quite graphic and to prepare myself 348 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:17,720 and maybe I'd like to be alone when I read it. 349 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:20,280 I thought Robert was gonna tell me 350 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,560 the same thing that was written on the Internet. 351 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:27,200 I thought that, um, he killed one and David Steinmeyer killed the other one. 352 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,600 But in this letter, he takes full responsibility for everything. 353 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:32,840 He told me he shot them both. 354 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,080 He just said, "Hey, I did it. 355 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,040 I can't say exactly why I did it, but I did it. 356 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,560 There's no excuse in the world for me doing what I did." 357 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,200 You know, he owned up to it. 358 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:24,960 I did write back to Robert. 359 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,960 I basically told him things haven't changed for us, 360 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:30,640 for me and my side of the family. 361 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,840 We forgive him, you know. I mean, we're... 362 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,440 Whatever the parole board decides or whatever anybody decides, 363 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:38,640 we're okay with them. 364 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:42,240 Why did I forgive Robert Shafer? 365 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,440 I guess the real reason... 366 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:48,160 [exhales] 367 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:50,240 ...if I don't forgive somebody, 368 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,920 how could I ever be forgiven for anything I've ever done? 369 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,280 I mean, he's been in jail for 28 years, 370 00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,200 [clicks tongue] for something he did one night 371 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:00,800 that he didn't even think about. 372 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,000 And I know my uncle would have forgiven him, too. 373 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:07,000 That's the way my uncle was. [Groenweghe] I don't recall how long 374 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,320 Shafer held on to that first version of events, 375 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:54,640 but, uh, his story started to change as the case progressed through the courts. 376 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,560 This morning you had a conversation with Susan McGrath. 377 00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:04,840 Did she advice you to, uh, not make a statement or make a statement? 378 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,400 -She advised me not to. -Not to. Okay. 379 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:09,440 -You still want to make a statement? -Yes, I do. 380 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:10,360 Okay. 381 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,480 [Groenweghe] After we had filed the charges, 382 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,960 Shafer wanted to talk to the police again, 383 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:17,960 and he gave a different version. 384 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,480 A version which really was not self-defense, 385 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,760 which was essentially a confession to first-degree murder. 386 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,120 As we got to the stop sign at Old Town St. Peters, 387 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,960 Young tried to reach for the door handle. I guess he was trying to get out. 388 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,880 Uh, this is when I knew that, you know, 389 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:37,880 something more than a robbery was going to happen. 390 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,280 I was almost sure they were going to be shot. 391 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:42,840 As a matter of fact, Steinmeyer asked me if I was going to shoot them 392 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:44,000 and I told him, "Yeah." 393 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,080 The first shot I fired, I don't know if it hit. 394 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,040 But the second shot, I knew it did because I was close enough 395 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:53,600 that I had blood on my right hand. 396 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:56,600 What time of the night are we talking about? 397 00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,440 He seems, almost arrogant, um, 398 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:02,000 certainly not remorseful. 399 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:03,920 [indistinct chatter] 400 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,240 You know, a lot of times, these interviews are like pulling teeth. 401 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:09,640 Not his. 402 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,360 He seemed almost proud of what he'd done. 403 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,840 I ran from Parker back to where Young and Steinmeyer were. 404 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:18,120 Young was still in the ditch. 405 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:22,560 As I got closer to Young, he begged for me not shoot him 406 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,600 and then he said he hadn't seen my face good enough, 407 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:27,480 and he wouldn't go to the police. 408 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:33,480 [stammers] I already knew in my own mind that I was going to shoot him. 409 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,680 Why had you decided at that point to shoot him? 410 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,880 Well, because I had already shot Parker 411 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:46,640 and I didn't think it would do me any good to leave Young there 412 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:48,680 -so he can go tell on me. -Mm-hmm. 413 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:50,040 I knew that he would-- 414 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,400 When I look at it, he's very matter of fact, uh, 415 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,320 doesn't seem emotionally affected by this in any way. 416 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:58,520 Doesn't seem to show any emotion. 417 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,480 He's just going through and explaining 418 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,960 how one of the men was running away and he shot him in the back. 419 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,200 I put three shells into the gun. 420 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,240 [Groenweghe] Shafer decided that he wanted to obtain the death penalty. 421 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,480 That was what he wanted to get. 422 00:34:40,639 --> 00:34:44,079 So he pled guilty and asked the judge to impose a death penalty. 423 00:34:44,159 --> 00:34:47,119 And the judge, in fact, did just that. 424 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,480 I get the feeling that he wanted to control things. 425 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,120 He wanted to control the way this trial proceeded 426 00:34:54,199 --> 00:34:56,119 and that was a very powerful way to do it. 427 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,120 I don't know that he really had a clearly thought-out end game. 428 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,560 I almost got the impression that Shafer was manipulative 429 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:07,360 for the sake of being manipulative. 430 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,520 That being manipulative was an end in itself. 431 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:23,320 [Groenweghe] He later claimed 432 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,160 that the reason he targeted people he believed were gay 433 00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:30,960 was because they wouldn't put up as much of a fight as someone who was not gay. 434 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,320 But I don't believe that's why he targeted them. 435 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,520 There are 6-foot-4 gay men who are very strong 436 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:41,800 and very timid straight men. 437 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:46,760 I think he targeted them out of hatred. 438 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:52,080 He believed they were gay, and, for him, that was something that he... 439 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,080 for whatever reason, couldn't tolerate. 440 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:36,560 [man] Oh, I remember the day. 441 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:39,720 We got a call, and my wife came into the bathroom. 442 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,160 I think I was giving my youngest daughter a bath. 443 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:45,760 And she said, "Robert's killed somebody." 444 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:50,280 I was like, "No way." You know, I just didn't believe it. 445 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:52,120 I couldn't believe it. 446 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,920 But I almost understand it, you know, the anger. 447 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:02,880 I'm not condoning what he did, I don't agree with it, 448 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,280 but I can definitely see it happening. 449 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,280 If his childhood had been a little different, maybe it'd been different. 450 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,600 Robert asked me, he says, "Why doesn't Momma love us?" 451 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,080 And I said, "Well, I don't know." 452 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,120 Because it did seem that way, you know, 'cause the other kids were kind of spared. 453 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,760 They didn't never have to suffer that, you know? 454 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,080 We were almost, like, hunted. 455 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:33,520 I think that's a good word to use for it. 456 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,480 You know, there were a couple of times I remember waking up at night 457 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:42,440 and she'd, like, be slapping Robert, you know, in the bed and during his sleep. 458 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:49,440 I do remember my mom would, you know, call him "faggot," and me too. 459 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,920 I didn't know what a faggot was. I found out one day and it devastated me. 460 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,120 It did. I thought, "Why is she calling me that?" 461 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:01,800 So, even to this day, for me, and Robert, I've talked to him, 462 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:05,080 sometimes I still look in the mirror and think, "Do I look feminine?" 463 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:07,760 You know? Because why would your mother call you that? 464 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,080 It had to mess with him the same way because he looks like me. 465 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:13,640 We were All-American boys, I mean, right? 466 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,520 Especially if he got molested when he was a young boy. 467 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:23,440 I never had nothing happen to me. 468 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:26,960 Robert did, so there could be the difference. 469 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:36,200 [Phillip] I remember the street. 470 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,480 This guy, you know, having the young boys in the neighborhoods come over 471 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:41,960 to play their video games. 472 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:46,480 We know what that means today. 473 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:49,480 I mean, all them young boys in the neighborhood. 474 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:54,640 I definitely think it affected Robert. 475 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,160 [Martin] I would say it started fourth grade summer. 476 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:23,600 Twelve, 13 years old, 13 or so. 477 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:30,560 Fourth grade summer is when Robert introduced me to the child molester. 478 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:37,360 This child molester ran things like he was the head honcho at a... 479 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:41,000 brothel for child molesters, okay? 480 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,560 I mean, he had his own prices for each person, whatever. 481 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:45,720 Um... 482 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:50,000 We were two kids that didn't have jobs, too young to work. 483 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,200 We'll do about anything for money. 484 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,880 Okay? And it was all motivated by money. 485 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:00,640 And it was nice. 486 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:04,280 You know, we could go to the pizza parlor, and we could throw a party. 487 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:06,360 We could throw a pizza party 488 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:08,960 and be there all day and just have a blast. 489 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:13,520 And forget about what happened to us. The money helped everything go away. 490 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:19,160 It was obviously very disturbing for me 491 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:22,880 when I found out the full extent of Robert's molestation. 492 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,400 I only performed oral sex with a condom. 493 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:29,600 And... 494 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:32,760 I let him perform oral sex on me. 495 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:35,240 And that's as far as I ever let him go. 496 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:40,200 Um, for Robert, the nature of it was much more worse, 497 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,080 much more severe, much more disturbing. 498 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:48,640 We would go to, you know, certain places to do these sex acts, okay? 499 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:51,160 I would have my turn, 500 00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:55,440 and then I would leave the van while Robert had his turn. 501 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:59,320 And Robert always had 150, 200 dollars 502 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,000 where I would have, you know, 50 or 75, whatever. 503 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:07,160 I guess I always thought Robert was better at giving oral sex for money than I did! 504 00:41:07,240 --> 00:41:08,960 [laughs] 505 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,440 You know, whether he did it with a condom on or not. I guess that's all I ever thought, you know? 506 00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:20,840 We never talked about that aspect of the transactions. 507 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:32,920 I believe it made Robert do violent damaging things. 508 00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:38,840 He never put it together that him shooting those two guys 509 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:41,920 was like getting rid of... 510 00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:47,840 or atoning for the damage that had been done to him in his life. 511 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:50,600 Whether Robert sees it or not, 512 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:54,480 he targeted these two gay guys because he'd been molested himself. 513 00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:58,960 That is exactly how I feel, that's exactly how a lot of people feel. 514 00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,160 [Shafer on recording] I knew that I was different, 515 00:42:42,240 --> 00:42:45,760 and I wasn't like some of the other boys my own age. 516 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:50,960 Um, because it happened to me, I spent a considerable amount of my time, 517 00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:53,600 um, trying to be with every girl that I could be 518 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:56,560 to prove to myself or maybe others, they didn't even know! 519 00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:00,960 That wasn't my fault, that wasn't me. You know, I wasn't gay. That was him. 520 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:02,000 Them! 521 00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:05,360 Um, so, I knew that part of it was... 522 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:10,040 [Juliette] It's hard listening to him talk about the abuse. 523 00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,160 He's a little disassociated, 524 00:43:13,240 --> 00:43:16,520 like he's talking about a story of somebody else's life. 525 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,720 I do think that he was trying to prove to himself 526 00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:24,040 that he was attracted to females, not... 527 00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:29,640 you know, because that had happened, that he had maybe questioned a lot. 528 00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:32,320 I know that you couldn't, like, joke around 529 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:34,880 and call him, you know, back then the term was "faggot." 530 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:36,800 That was the word that was used a lot. [sniffles] 531 00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,240 And if you said that to him, he would get very upset. 532 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:45,240 [Shafer on recording] Everybody in my life, like, they didn't believe it. 533 00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:47,960 "Not Robert. Not the Robert we know." 534 00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:50,920 But a lot didn't know me as well as they thought they did either. 535 00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,040 I wasn't into anything on the side in secret. 536 00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:57,520 Everything I did was kinda on the surface, it was on the surface. 537 00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:00,960 His masks were so-- There wasn't one. 538 00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:05,400 One might come off a little bit, but there was another one underneath it. 539 00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:07,400 And then probably another one underneath that. 540 00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,480 He just put all these walls and masks up, 541 00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:14,400 that I don't think anyone could have penetrated. 542 00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:26,960 [Shafer] Did I wear a mask? Sure I did. 543 00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,360 I didn't really want people to know who I was. 544 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:31,760 Uh, was I the kid who had been molested? 545 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,600 Well, I didn't display that for everybody either. 546 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:41,440 Some of the way I was living makes me sound sociopathic. 547 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:46,040 And I guess by definition that's exactly the way I was living. 548 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:50,320 I was doing abnormal things and then living a normal life. 549 00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:10,240 [Shafer] I never did have a resolution to the child molestation. 550 00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:15,160 Revenge? No. Maybe just everything just came out. 551 00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:19,640 And the murders didn't make it any better. No. 552 00:45:19,720 --> 00:45:22,080 I didn't find out about any of their backgrounds till after the fact, 553 00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:23,080 so I didn't know. 554 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:26,760 Did we think we knew? Well, sure we did. But we didn't know for sure. 555 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:32,960 I had a gun. I had a loaded gun. 556 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,560 Bad things are gonna happen when you're living a criminal lifestyle 557 00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:39,360 and you have a loaded gun, and you mean to rob somebody. 558 00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:42,440 It can quickly turn into a murder. And it did! 559 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:47,200 And so, it was impulsive that I shot. I didn't have to shoot. 560 00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,760 [Groenweghe] Shafer decided he wanted to obtain the death penalty, 561 00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:56,720 that was what he wanted to get, 562 00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:00,560 so he pled guilty and asked the judge to impose a death penalty. 563 00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,640 And the judge, in fact, did just that. 564 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:07,880 I get the feeling that he wanted to control things. 565 00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,600 He wanted to control the way this trial proceeded 566 00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:13,200 and that was a very powerful way to do it. 567 00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:18,120 [Shafer] The case was just becoming frustrating beyond all imagination. 568 00:46:20,720 --> 00:46:25,400 I thought that if I pled guilty and asked for the death penalty, 569 00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:27,280 it would bring light to my case, 570 00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:31,920 that people would sympathize and it would cast me in a favorable light. 571 00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:36,920 And the old saying goes that, "Be careful what you ask for." 572 00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:39,880 I asked for it, and the judge gave it to me. 573 00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:47,720 I regret it for the impact that it had on so many people. 574 00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:52,760 Um, my victim's family didn't even know that this was going to happen. 575 00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:55,400 They found out later that I got the death sentence. 576 00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:58,280 They weren't invited to the courtroom, they didn't have a chance to speak. 577 00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:02,120 In the United States, when you're sentenced, 578 00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:04,160 the victim's family has an opportunity to speak. 579 00:47:04,240 --> 00:47:05,440 It's called a Victim Impact Statement. 580 00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:09,040 They have a chance to come up there and say whatever they so choose to you. 581 00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:12,600 And, um, I wasn't prepared for that. 582 00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:15,800 But I also knew I was truly guilty of the murders. 583 00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:17,240 And I couldn't face them. 584 00:47:17,720 --> 00:47:20,800 And I didn't wanna face them. I was ashamed of myself. 585 00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:24,600 And I robbed the victims, but I didn't realize that until later. 586 00:47:32,720 --> 00:47:35,640 [Shafer] If I had a chance to talk to anybody, 587 00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,960 I would probably most wanna talk to him. 588 00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:42,280 I mean, I didn't just ruin, you know, my victim's family's lives and my family's lives, um, I ruined his life. 589 00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:01,360 If I would've told the truth from the beginning, 590 00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:02,960 he might not ever went to prison. 591 00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:08,160 And I very easily could've put him on death row for what I did. 592 00:48:08,240 --> 00:48:10,040 I didn't want another murder. 593 00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:11,440 And that's what it would've been tantamount to, 594 00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:12,960 but I would simply tell him, "I'm sorry." 595 00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:22,920 [Kiel] I did write back to Robert. 596 00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:26,880 I basically told him things haven't changed for us, 597 00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:28,520 for me and my side of the family. 598 00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:31,480 We forgive him, you know, I mean we're... 599 00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,400 Whatever the parole board decides or whatever anybody decides, 600 00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:36,480 we're okay with them. 601 00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:41,400 [Shafer] I don't think he knew the impact that his letter would have. 602 00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:43,520 It was a life-changing moment. 603 00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:45,960 I remember the day I received the letter. 604 00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:51,560 [stammers] And it started a process that I was on my way to, 605 00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:55,760 but I needed someone to kinda give me-- I didn't need a nudge, I needed a push. 606 00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:59,000 And his letter did that. Um... 607 00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:05,040 So, the kindness that he showed me, um... 608 00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:09,400 led me to finally do something good. 609 00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:15,840 Telling the truth, um, is never easy when you've lied. 610 00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:20,120 But to tell the truth about killing two people is even worse. 611 00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:22,520 And... 612 00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:25,560 I'm grateful that he did that. 613 00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:27,040 Grateful.