1 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:08,640 [signal bell ringing] 2 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:16,920 [man] It's difficult for me to go back and... 3 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:22,400 and try to quantify how I felt or what I was thinking. 4 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:31,960 To actually be able to put myself into the situation. 5 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:34,840 It always-- for a long time, I know, 6 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:39,120 it seemed that I was looking at it from outside... 7 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:49,000 It just seemed like watching something on the screen. 8 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:54,520 Not as something that I was really experiencing. 9 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,240 My name is, uh, Miguel Angel Martinez. 10 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:34,480 I was convicted of capital murder. And I was sentenced to death. 11 00:01:44,320 --> 00:01:46,240 [man 1] And I walked up, I fired one shot. 12 00:01:46,320 --> 00:01:48,680 And as I got closer, I fired one more shot. 13 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:53,520 [man 2] She was shot through the cheek and it stopped in her jaw. 14 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:59,040 [man 3] I drove him around behind a desk and I stabbed him approximately 25 times. 15 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:05,160 [man 4] I couldn't believe it. 16 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:08,480 I just thought I can't believe I just killed somebody. 17 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:15,520 [man 5] I don't feel bad about it. [laughs] 18 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:23,240 [man 6] I started stabbing him, stabbing the guy on the couch. 19 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:10,400 I look back and I don't see myself having a very different life 20 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:14,400 or experience than most average teenagers. 21 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:20,560 Going to school, meeting people, wanting to go out to parties. 22 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:29,760 I remember it was a, uh... 23 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:35,520 it was a weekday, but I think we were on vacation for something. 24 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:42,200 It was in the early afternoon that I saw Venegas, 25 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:45,880 who I knew from school. 26 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:48,360 I had one class with him. 27 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:51,640 And he told me about a party 28 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:55,320 that was supposed to be happening that night 29 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:59,360 and about going to see Milo. 30 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:03,440 Milo Flores. 31 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:06,440 He was a person that I hung out with. 32 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,640 I would go to his house and we would go to parties together. 33 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,160 Venegas was 16 at that time. 34 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,680 Flores was 17, and I was 17. 35 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,960 Milo, basically, had his own apartment behind his parents' house. 36 00:04:26,840 --> 00:04:31,360 His father was wealthy, at least in my eyes. 37 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:36,840 Milo had the means to get drugs that I didn't, 38 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:38,880 so that was what joined us, 39 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:42,200 that was smoking marijuana and doing cocaine. 40 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:47,840 [upbeat music playing] 41 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:50,560 Venegas had a tendency to... 42 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:57,720 do a lot and get very, very expressive. 43 00:04:59,280 --> 00:05:03,960 He wasn't somebody that I necessarily enjoyed having around. 44 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:09,200 It might have been close to midnight. 45 00:05:10,280 --> 00:05:15,480 He was very excited, he was uh, very uh, hyper, 46 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:17,320 and he wanted to go do something. 47 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:20,000 Right then and there, go outside 48 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:22,840 and stone a car, stone a house-- do something. 49 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:28,440 And that's what happened that night. 50 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:46,560 I can't say that there was a reason, that there was a planning 51 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:51,360 or an intention, really, behind going to this particular house. 52 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:01,240 Milo and I had been there before, a couple of times. 53 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:04,800 And we had already used some keys to get into the house 54 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:07,960 and take things out which we exchanged for drugs. I knew the person that lived there, I knew he lived alone. 55 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,120 As a matter of fact, I had been working for him in the past. 56 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:24,960 I met him when I was 15 years old. 57 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,240 He took an interest in me. It was, uh... 58 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:34,840 I think it can be considered him seeing somebody that needed a... 59 00:06:35,280 --> 00:06:37,680 a father, or him seeing somebody that... 60 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,760 that was disadvantaged and trying to help. 61 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,400 I had been given keys to his house. 62 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:51,240 On several occasions, I've... I actually stayed with him at night. Uh... 63 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:55,240 Going to work the next morning, he was, uh... 64 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:57,400 he was my ride, I guess. 65 00:06:59,840 --> 00:07:03,400 And so, uh, we decided to go to that house. 66 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,960 It was supposed to be what we had done before. 67 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:13,520 Nobody home, go in and take something 68 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:18,720 and what Venegas was insistent on 69 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:22,440 was doing some damage, tearing something up. 70 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:26,960 And so what we took with us were a baseball bat, 71 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:29,600 an axe, and some knives. 72 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:44,160 Milo had dropped us off about two blocks away 73 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:48,120 so that he could make a slow circuit, 74 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:52,080 give him enough time to drive around and then come pick us up. 75 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,200 It was not supposed to take very long. 76 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:03,680 When we got to the house... 77 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,560 I had a bad feeling, I guess. 78 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,040 Venegas walks over to the house and... 79 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:25,120 when he came back, uh, he tells me there's somebody in the house. 80 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:30,600 Uh... which was a surprise, a shock. 81 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:33,240 And... 82 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:36,159 My thoughts were to get away, 83 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:41,120 my thoughts were, "I need to get... get out of here." 84 00:08:43,039 --> 00:08:44,319 Everything had switched. 85 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:46,600 There was something that changed with him. 86 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:50,320 He was on a mission and... 87 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:56,040 It was not to go steal anything, it was not to go trash anything. 88 00:08:56,120 --> 00:09:00,520 To him, he was on a mission for Satan. 89 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:05,800 Satan wanted their souls. 90 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:13,640 The reason that I didn't leave... 91 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:16,600 I was scared of him at that point. 92 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:27,040 In memory, things seem to go slow from that point on, 93 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:33,360 and I can't really explain how the sequence happens 94 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:38,760 or how long between one... one memory or one flash of memory to the other. 95 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:44,400 But I remember standing over a guy, 96 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:46,840 sleeping on the couch, 97 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:51,240 which was a few feet away from the entrance. 98 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:54,080 I mean, I couldn't say how old he was, 99 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:56,680 I couldn't say I even knew what he looked like. 100 00:09:57,880 --> 00:09:59,880 [clock ticking] 101 00:10:01,560 --> 00:10:03,480 [Martinez] Venegas had the axe. 102 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:07,360 And, um... 103 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:10,440 He hit him. 104 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:13,400 He hit him one time. 105 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:19,640 And uh, he had a knife, and I had a knife, and... 106 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:25,480 And he started stabbing, stabbing the guy on the, uh, on the couch. 107 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:31,760 I don't how long it took, I don't know how long it... it really was. 108 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:36,720 It seems to have been something very quick and uh... 109 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,240 The part that I remember is Venegas looking up at me 110 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:45,640 with the knife and telling me it was my turn. 111 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:46,920 And... 112 00:10:47,680 --> 00:10:51,840 I had a folding knife and so I unfolded it 113 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:56,520 and looked at the body that was laying there below me 114 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:57,440 and I stabbed him... 115 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:02,280 and uh... walked away. 116 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:05,720 Walked towards the back of the... 117 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:08,680 of the house where there was a sliding door 118 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:11,120 that led into the back yard. 119 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:15,400 And I don't know how long I was out there. 120 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:23,240 It had to be enough time... that when I came back in, 121 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:25,720 Venegas was standing there. 122 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:33,240 What I didn't know was that, during that time that I was outside, 123 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,960 he had stabbed one other person... 124 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:42,320 who was, uh, in one of the rooms. 125 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:45,400 Uh... 126 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:49,400 What I remember is saying that I wanted to leave and... 127 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:52,800 he told me to give him the axe. 128 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:58,240 And he walked back down the hallway into the back room. 129 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:04,160 I didn't see what he did. 130 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:05,880 Uh... 131 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:12,320 When he came back, uh, he told me there was... 132 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:16,560 there was a guy back there. 133 00:12:17,560 --> 00:12:22,560 And that Satan wanted their soul. 134 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:32,440 We took one TV that was in the living room... 135 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:35,520 and his car. 136 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:45,000 And we drove. We drove to Milo's house. 137 00:12:45,560 --> 00:12:48,200 We drove down the street where he was supposed to be waiting 138 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:49,600 but he wasn't there. 139 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:52,360 And so we went to his house and, uh... 140 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:57,080 He told me not to go in, that he was going to go talk to Milo. 141 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:00,760 And he came back. I don't know how long it was. 142 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:09,080 From there, I remember going with Venegas, and going to other people's houses. 143 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:18,720 When I got home it was late afternoon. 144 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:25,400 And, uh, I never saw Venegas again. 145 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:34,680 I remember Milo telling me that, uh, he wanted to talk to me that night. 146 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:40,080 He was worried about Venegas saying something about him. 147 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:42,080 And... 148 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:49,800 That was the last time I spoke to Milo before I got arrested. 149 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,240 [man] Sometimes, not even when we think about it. 150 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,400 Thank You, Lord, for Your miracles, in our lives 151 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:45,400 and in our hearts. 152 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:51,040 Lord, fill us with Your spirit today. But Lord, as the sermon comes... 153 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:55,160 My name is Jay Dickey, and this is First Baptist Church. 154 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,080 ...and we will be attentive to everything that Pastor Ben has to say. 155 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:00,760 Nobody would have thought, of all people, 156 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:05,280 that Jim Smiley would be someone who would have been attacked like that. 157 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,760 We never actually take the time to share the gospel with people, don't do that. 158 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:15,080 James had a-- or "Jim," as we called him, had a really fabulous personality 159 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:19,240 and a great gift of sense of humor and that kind of stuff. 160 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:24,560 Jim did some mission work in Nuevo Laredo 161 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:30,240 with uh, this orphanage that he was helping some missionaries with. 162 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:32,960 He spent a lot of time going back and forth 163 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:37,480 and using a lot of his own resources to... to do that. 164 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,200 He just loved people so he was always involved 165 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:47,120 in one way or another, uh, helping out with families who had needs 166 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:49,200 but also with the youth group. 167 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,760 We had a fairly large youth group 168 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:58,000 and Jim got really involved in that and in other parts of the church. 169 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,360 Nobody could believe that something like that would happen 170 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:02,640 especially to James Smiley. 171 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:07,520 He'd give the shirt off his back to you to help you out if you needed it. 172 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,120 We lost uh, three people 173 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,840 who had no reason to die whatsoever. 174 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:18,720 ...and then as we take the offering... 175 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:24,160 Well, as a Christian, I have to believe that anyone can be redeemed. But... 176 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:29,680 there was a suggestion that there had been some kind of a satanic ritual first. 177 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:31,320 Forgive us... 178 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:33,200 [Dickey] It was an axe. 179 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,880 In Jesus name we pray, amen. 180 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:38,720 That's pretty extreme. 181 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:48,840 [radio dispatcher speaking] 182 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,480 The tip of the iceberg, the tip of this-- of the pyramid on any police job 183 00:16:57,560 --> 00:16:58,600 is homicide, 184 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:03,080 because you get to investigate the killing of another human being. 185 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:14,040 [radio dispatcher speaking] 186 00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:17,639 I'm going to make a right turn over here 187 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:20,520 and then we're going to start going towards the house. 188 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:24,600 [Torres] I'm trying to remember that day. 189 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:28,880 I was, you know, I was the only detective working at the time. It was nighttime. 190 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:32,560 and my beeper started going, so I called the police station 191 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:33,760 and they tell me, 192 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,360 "Look, there are officers that had showed up to this house." 193 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,040 They found dead bodies out there 194 00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:42,760 so he's requesting a homicide detective out there. 195 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:46,960 This is it. 196 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:53,120 So I just drove up to the scene here 197 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,160 and of course, there were several police cars with the lights on 198 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:58,760 already here and then, the first officer at the scene, 199 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:02,360 he gave me a briefing what he saw inside the house, 200 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,080 after that, I decide to walk inside the house. 201 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:07,160 [police siren whoops] 202 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:14,360 What caught my attention was the level of violence 203 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,440 that was used to kill these three people out there. 204 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:22,320 Their bodies, their heads were smashed. They were hit, they were slashed, 205 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:27,800 and in a way that the level of violence was incredible. 206 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:32,960 And apparently, everybody was asleep at the time. 207 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:36,840 The youngest victim, 14 years old, 208 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:39,960 most likely put up a fight, and... 209 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:45,200 There were signs in the room that he actually struggled for his own life. 210 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,760 The other two victims, they were killed as they slept. 211 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:57,000 Another concerning thing that, uh... 212 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,640 In the master bedroom where the owner of the house was killed, 213 00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:06,080 there was a crucifix that was actually turned upside down. 214 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,680 Had the person responsible done that, as a sign? 215 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:16,680 As you know, devil worshipping, or was it just as a prank? We had no idea. 216 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:26,040 By seeing that there was not a forced-entry type of issue... 217 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:28,720 It was, uh, you know... 218 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,520 the person responsible entered the house with a key. 219 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,400 You know, most of the homicides are committed by people 220 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:37,000 who are known to the victim. 221 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,960 And one of the defendants, Miguel Martinez, 222 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,520 turned out to be an ex-employee of Mr. Smiley, 223 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:46,560 who was the owner of the house. 224 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:51,160 The other one was Venegas, Miguel Venegas. 225 00:19:52,360 --> 00:19:55,840 They were the two people responsible, directly responsible for the killings. 226 00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:59,560 And of course, they had a third friend out there, 227 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:04,600 who facilitated and loaned them what we call now the" murder weapons." 228 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,520 And it became a huge issue here, that uh... 229 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,680 that was the son of a local district judge. 230 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,680 My name is Manuel Flores, and I'm a native Laradoan. 231 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:44,720 I've been a practicing attorney since 1975, 232 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:50,800 Twenty years as a district judge, four years as a county court at law judge. 233 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:59,640 I never thought that the kinds of cases that I would hear that someday, 234 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,400 those issues would visit me personally. 235 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:25,080 It was a morning and I was getting ready to go to work, 236 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,480 and two police officers knocked on my door. 237 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,880 And, uh, as I recall, they told me, 238 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:35,360 "You know, this axe murder that's been in the news, 239 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:39,160 we understand the axe is here at your home." 240 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,600 And of course I, I was shocked. 241 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:48,640 And uh... so I enquired of my son, and... 242 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,960 "Son, did somebody borrow the axe?" And he said, "Yes." 243 00:21:52,120 --> 00:21:57,160 And, "Where is it?" and he said, "It's here by the woodpile." 244 00:21:57,360 --> 00:21:58,400 So, "Well, go get it. " 245 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,920 I got it and I gave it to them, no questions asked. 246 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,280 Come on, Crystal, good girl. 247 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:17,760 Then, I think it was, uh, Investigator Torres, 248 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,560 asked me if he could interview my son. 249 00:22:22,120 --> 00:22:26,680 I had this great fear that maybe he had been involved, 250 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:28,880 that maybe he had done something. 251 00:22:30,120 --> 00:22:33,480 But... he explained that, uh, 252 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,080 he may have been together with Martinez there at the house 253 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:40,000 and then Venegas showed up or Venegas and Martinez showed up. 254 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:44,280 I don't remember exactly how it happened but in any event, he explained that... 255 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,560 they were talking about going to trash a house, 256 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:53,080 to do something bad to someone who appeared to be good 257 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:54,800 but was really bad. 258 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,200 And, uh, they asked him, 259 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,240 "Why did they take your knife 260 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:11,720 and why did they take the axe that was outside there in the uh, carport?" 261 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,400 And he said, "Well, they wanted a gun but I told them no. 262 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,080 And since all they were going to do is trash the house, 263 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:23,760 I thought nothing of it." 264 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:27,440 And what I wanted to do was get rid of them 265 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,240 because they were acting, uh, real strange." 266 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,320 You know, my son had access to our guns, 267 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:39,560 and later on, I found out that he lied to him 268 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:43,040 to make up the story to not give him a gun. 269 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:49,760 [Flores] He's a gentle, gentle person who would never hurt anybody. 270 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,640 Investigator Torres said, "Look, we know exactly what happened. 271 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,120 The two boys that committed those murders 272 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,640 have both confessed and explained how it happened. 273 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,000 And based on the circumstances, 274 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,320 your son could not have known what was going to happen." 275 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:11,080 The facts are he left, 276 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:15,200 and they themselves said they had not formulated the idea 277 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:16,680 to kill anybody. 278 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:21,880 It was an idea that Venegas had after they entered 279 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,280 and found out there were people sleeping in there 280 00:24:24,360 --> 00:24:28,080 and when they started to leave, that Venegas said something to the effect, 281 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,360 "Let's go back and take their souls." 282 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,280 But that was just the beginning of the story 283 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:40,480 because my son testified that they had been at my house, 284 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,440 and my son had given them a ride into that neighborhood 285 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:45,440 where they committed the offense. 286 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,680 When that got in the paper, that gave rise to a lot of problems. 287 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,320 And, uh, people were talking, 288 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:58,480 and the assumption was that I had used some kind of influence, uh, 289 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:00,360 to save my son from being prosecuted. 290 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,880 And nothing could be further from the truth. 291 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:10,560 I would have preferred for him to be accused and face a jury of his peers 292 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,640 and that he would have been declared innocent. 293 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,720 Because there were no facts that showed any guilt. 294 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,080 That's why I don't want him to get involved. 295 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,680 I don't want all the crazies out there to put him through the anguish 296 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,720 and the agony that he had since 1991. 297 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,880 And I just want him to live a normal life and be done with this. 298 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:35,640 And I wish it would go away. 299 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:37,720 [birds chirping] 300 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,240 [man] You get the first call. 301 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:59,200 You get there and you secure the evidence, secure the area, 302 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,360 and you start investigating from zero. 303 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,440 These are the weapons that were used. 304 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:32,760 [clicks] 305 00:26:40,360 --> 00:26:42,240 Hello. The axe is here. 306 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,640 This is-- this is what I call hands-on. 307 00:26:54,360 --> 00:27:00,160 When you crack somebody's skull with that and the blood's squirting everywhere, 308 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:05,480 crunching of the bone, these are hands-on weapons. 309 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:10,480 It takes a lot, you know. You have to be really into what you're doing. 310 00:27:11,120 --> 00:27:13,960 Yeah, it's not like, "I did it and I didn't know what I was doing." 311 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:18,720 It's something that you do and then you go to the next room 312 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:19,840 and you do it again, 313 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,880 and then you go to the next room and do it again. 314 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,960 You know, it's actually like a continuing... 315 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,920 thing in your mind to do this evil thing. 316 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,360 One of the perpetrators said that the devil told him to go back and take their souls. 317 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,800 And you say, well, how could the devil be involved? Well... 318 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,920 I think this case could have been induced by drugs 319 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,240 because apparently they were using some drugs 320 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,560 and you can get an induced high 321 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:05,560 that would create hallucinations and might create the voice. 322 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,320 In this case, I don't know. 323 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:12,000 I think you need to ask the one that did it. 324 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:19,520 If you believe in God, and God believes in the devil, 325 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:21,800 you know that that the devil is out there. 326 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,280 [Venegas] Now what I'm about to tell you... 327 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:00,760 I stopped myself from telling anybody. 328 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,520 Because of parole, and what are they gonna think about me. 329 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:12,080 The warp in my mind happened when I was eight years old, 330 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:13,360 seven or eight years old. 331 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:16,680 At eight years old I became... 332 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:22,000 um, convinced that I was the son of a devil. 333 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,440 In Juarez, there used to be a bunch of black widows. 334 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,600 You know, those, uh... spiders, 335 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,600 and I would tell myself, "If I'm the son of a devil, 336 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:34,680 none of these spiders is gonna bite me." 337 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:39,520 And I would fill up a jar of black widows and go catch them 338 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:41,120 and uh, take off my shirt, 339 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,280 be on the ground and I tell my friends, "I'm the son of the devil." 340 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:50,600 And I'd just take off the-- put those black widows on my chest. 341 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:52,880 None of them ever bit me. [chuckles] 342 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:54,000 So I'm thinking, 343 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:58,040 I'm convincing myself that I'm the son of a devil because of this. 344 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,640 That was a little phase that I went through... 345 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,600 and then as it came, it went. 346 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:18,080 I met Martinez in my sophomore year in pre-algebra class. 347 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:19,040 [sniffs] 348 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,960 I didn't know Manuel Flores, I didn't know his dad was a judge. 349 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:27,160 It came out that one night... 350 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:30,720 we were, you know, snorting some lines. 351 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,280 and Manuel Flores, he kind of like hinted, 352 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,120 "Hey, man, I'm always pulling out the coke." 353 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:43,120 Which was true. 354 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,480 He was the one that had money. We didn't have no money. 355 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,720 I don't like for anybody to say that to me. 356 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:55,720 I don't like mooching, you know? I don't like taking stuff from somebody. 357 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:58,400 So I said, "Hey, well... 358 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:03,760 what can we do you, you know? I mean, we ain't got no money." 359 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:09,040 And it so happened that Martinez had a key to this house 360 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,960 and, uh, they came up with the idea to go steal. 361 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:18,080 Because supposedly, this guy had a stash of money. 362 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:21,800 Because Martinez knew him. 363 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:23,680 [sniffs] 364 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:27,640 I'm like, "Sounds all right, sounds good. Sounds like a plan." 365 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,640 I'm like, "Well, how are we going to scare this dude into giving us money?" 366 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,960 Manuel Flores said, "You know, well, I got a gun." 367 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:41,960 I'm like, "Okay, so..." You know, I'm wired up! 368 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,320 I'm... "Let's go do it!" Because I want some more cocaine. 369 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:46,680 [sniffs] 370 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:52,640 And Manuel's like, "Well, hold on." And he takes off and comes back 371 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:58,240 and says, "Nah, well, my dad put the gun in the locker and locked it." 372 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:04,600 And I say, "Well, lend me your... your knives." 373 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,440 He was always sharpening some knives that he had. 374 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:09,840 Okay. 375 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:12,400 I said, "Take me to your shed," right? 376 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:14,200 So, we go to this shed. 377 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,440 And I'm looking, and there's an axe. 378 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,360 And there's a... there's a bat. 379 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,360 I said, "Well, yeah, we'll take that, and we'll take a bat." 380 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:29,200 And I said, "Well... 381 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,840 why don't... why don't we just kill the dude, then?" 382 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,120 "Ah, tsk. You won't do that." 383 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,840 I come from a... machista culture. 384 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:46,600 A dare is a dare. 385 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:52,480 [crickets chirping] 386 00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:59,280 [tires squealing] 387 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:05,960 I had been doing some hallucinogens during the day. 388 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,160 And, uh... well, add the cocaine to that. 389 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:16,560 But I still... 390 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,640 I still kind of knew what I was doing, you know? 391 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,200 He gives us a ride and he takes off. 392 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:28,880 So we go to this place... 393 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,720 and we looked through the windows and I see that there's... 394 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:35,600 there's three dudes in here. 395 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,360 And now, everything's changed. 396 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:45,080 "Oh, man, we should go." 397 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:47,280 And I'm like, "We can't go anywhere." 398 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,440 And it seeps in my mind, I have to kill these three people. 399 00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,800 And then I remember, when I was younger, with the spiders. 400 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,000 I saw it as a sign. 401 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,680 And I say, "More souls to the devil." 402 00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:19,999 So we go to the guy. He's on the couch and he's asleep. 403 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:24,240 And I got the axe. 404 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:29,760 And I'm just like... 405 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,040 thinking about it and I'm like-- but I'm high, too. 406 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,840 And at the same time, I want to pump myself up to do it. 407 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:45,520 And the guy wakes up. 408 00:34:48,639 --> 00:34:50,519 He wakes up and he looks at me. 409 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:56,320 And he goes back to sleep. 410 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,320 And I'm thinking to myself, "Oh, the devil's got my back." 411 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:05,560 That's what I became convinced of. 412 00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:09,680 I strike him with the axe. 413 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:14,960 And then... 414 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,600 I don't know whether I left the axe on his head, 415 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:24,640 or I took it off and put it to the side and I started stabbing him in the chest. 416 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,840 Martinez said that, uh, he only stabbed the guy one time. 417 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:34,800 I don't know if he did or not. 418 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,440 I don't know if it was one time, two times, three-- 419 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,080 I was focused on something else. 420 00:35:40,240 --> 00:35:42,960 I was thinking, "I need to get out of here. 421 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,720 I need to kill these people and get out of here." 422 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:48,840 That's what I was thinking. 423 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:57,600 Before long, I see that Martinez is not there anymore. 424 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,720 And later on I came to find out that he went outside to puke. 425 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:08,600 He comes back in and he's like, "Man, I don't want to do this." 426 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:10,280 I said... 427 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:15,280 "Hey, don't step out of this house again until we do this 428 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,000 or the devil's gonna kill us." 429 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,760 That's what was in my head. 430 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:24,040 That's what I believed. That's what I thought. 431 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:27,160 I said, so... 432 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:29,400 I said, "Look. 433 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,160 Just go to the side, man. I'll take care of the rest." 434 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,280 I went to the kid's-- I didn't know he was a kid, 435 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:45,680 until I got in there-- started stabbing him in the stomach. 436 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:49,400 And, uh, I heard his voice, 437 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,680 "Hey, man," he told me, "Hey, man, hey, man." and I'm like... 438 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,280 And then I've seen him and he's a kid. 439 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,240 I go next door to where Smiley was sleeping. 440 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:08,720 I did this-- I got the axe, chopped him in the head and... 441 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:10,440 Uh... 442 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:15,360 And that was it. 443 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,320 We didn't find no money. We took a TV, a VCR, 444 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,880 little rings, or whatever the hell. 445 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,400 I turned some crucifixes upside-down. 446 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:32,400 Uh... 447 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:35,040 And we took the car. 448 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:39,400 And I was happy. Because I was not gonna die. 449 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:41,760 That was... 450 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,080 the main reason why I did that. 451 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:49,640 Whether it makes sense to anybody, 452 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:52,000 it made sense to me. 453 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,920 I took three lives. I did that. 454 00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:01,360 I can't lie. 455 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:06,600 I can't say that I did not do something so heinous. 456 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:12,760 And the 41 years that were given to me is just like a little slap in the hand. 457 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:16,880 I said, "Even if I do the whole time, 458 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:20,120 which probably is gonna happen, 459 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:25,240 even if I do the whole time, it won't pay for one life, man." 460 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:33,960 I can't say that there was a reason or that there was a planning or an intention really behind going to this particular house. 461 00:38:39,240 --> 00:38:42,280 I knew the person that lived there, I knew he lived alone. 462 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,120 Uh, as a matter of fact, I had been working for him. 463 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:49,080 It was supposed to be what we had done before. 464 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,680 Nobody home, go in, and take something 465 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:57,720 and what Venegas was insistent upon 466 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:02,000 was doing some damage, tearing something up. 467 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,840 I don't remember... uh, I don't remember it like that. 468 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,600 He seems to have selective memory. I mean, we all do. 469 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,080 I'm not trying to transfer him 'cause we're in it together. 470 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:22,280 He came up with the idea to go to that house. 471 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:24,360 He knew what we were gonna do. 472 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:26,960 We share the blame. 473 00:39:28,720 --> 00:39:30,880 Whether he accepts the fact, 474 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:35,120 or whether he, "I thought he was kidding or..." 475 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,160 No! You participated. 476 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:43,040 And, uh, he doesn't mention anything, 477 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:48,280 or he doesn't go into detail as to his relationship to, uh, Mr. Smiley. 478 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:51,040 He doesn't even want to say his name. 479 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,400 Now, when we're in the house, and I asked him, "Well, who's this guy?" 480 00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:58,200 "Ah, man. He's just some faggot!" 481 00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:01,160 That's what he said. "He's a faggot." 482 00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:04,400 Smiley was a pedophile. 483 00:40:06,720 --> 00:40:10,400 At least that's what my lawyer told me, the first lawyer that I had. 484 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,760 And I'm so young, I said, "What the hell is a pedophile?" 485 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:20,440 He said, "Man, I have families willing to testify in court 486 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,480 that, uh, Mr. Smiley messed with their kids." 487 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:30,480 I don't know what kind of a story Martinez told you all, 488 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:35,280 but, uh, he had lived with this man. 489 00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:48,640 [car engine revving] 490 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:53,000 Uh, my name is Joe Rubio. 491 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:55,960 I was the district attorney for 20 years here in Webb County. 492 00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:57,560 I was the lead prosecutor, 493 00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:01,520 prosecuting the capital murder case against Miguel Angel Martinez. 494 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,920 There have been a lot of rumors about, you know, James Smiley 495 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:12,520 and there was never any evidence to substantiate that at all. 496 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:19,600 On the contrary, everyone that we interviewed, uh... 497 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:23,000 thought that-- Not only thought, but believed in Jim Smiley, 498 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:25,760 that he was an outstanding, you know, citizen. 499 00:41:27,720 --> 00:41:30,920 I don't know if some people do it maliciously. 500 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:33,320 They just pass on, they just want to gossip. 501 00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:35,920 And you know, they perpetuate those rumors. 502 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,600 For me to even have to comment and say 503 00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:44,040 that he wasn't involved in improper activities 504 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,160 still casts a shadow on him 505 00:41:47,240 --> 00:41:50,640 and we have-- we never had any evidence of that whatsoever. 506 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:55,720 Other than he was dedicated to his family, his church, and on his work. 507 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,520 After Miguel Angel Martinez received the death penalty... 508 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:13,520 Uh, he was one of the youngest defendants on death row. 509 00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:18,480 We had offered Martinez in return for his plea of guilty, 510 00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:20,480 uh, a life imprisonment. 511 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,200 He didn't want to take that plea, so he forced us to trial. 512 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:27,560 And when we went to trial, he got the death penalty. 513 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:40,040 We had gotten a lot of-- a lot of communications from a lot of people. 514 00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:41,600 Uh... 515 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:45,400 And so, we sat down, and I decided that, 516 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:47,800 although we had been successful 517 00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,320 in achieving a capital murder conviction, 518 00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:54,080 I didn't think that it was fair for him to get the death penalty, 519 00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:55,480 and the co-defendant, 520 00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,760 who we felt was more culpable, who was more of the instigator, 521 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,560 could not, under the law, get the death penalty. 522 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,000 So, we agreed to commute his sentence. 523 00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:08,960 [Venegas on recording] They came up with the idea to go steal. 524 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:14,680 And I said, "Well, why don't... why don't we just kill the dude, then?" 525 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:17,640 "Ah, tsk. You won't do that." 526 00:43:18,720 --> 00:43:22,240 I come from a... machista culture. 527 00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:25,360 A dare is a dare. 528 00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:29,520 [Rubio] Well, I don't want to speculate, you know, as to, 529 00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:31,760 you know, whether it happened or not. 530 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:35,320 I guess you'd have to, it's a fact situation as to what the, 531 00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,680 you know, what type of credibility that person had. 532 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:40,360 You know? I mean, how long have you known him? 533 00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:41,720 How long have you been around him? 534 00:43:42,720 --> 00:43:45,600 The evidence shows that there was drug use during that day. 535 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:49,080 A lot of drug use, a lot of drinking alcohol. 536 00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:51,880 And, uh, you know, a lot of times people say things, 537 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:56,080 and they don't really mean it, they're you know, just you know, boasting. 538 00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:00,280 I believe that they actually formed their intent once they got there... 539 00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,200 when Venegas says "The devil wants their souls." 540 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:07,720 That's when they turned around to go back into the home 541 00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:09,760 and committed the homicides. 542 00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:12,640 Our position was, that's where they formed the intent. 543 00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:16,800 Uh, the Flores kid did not go over there with them. 544 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:18,680 He was never there. 545 00:44:20,240 --> 00:44:22,680 The case was presented to a grand jury. 546 00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:24,760 They took a look at all the evidence, 547 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,280 and they decided that they felt that there was evidence 548 00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:32,080 to indict Venegas and Martinez, but not Milo Flores. 549 00:44:34,720 --> 00:44:38,120 Later on, it was looked at by the Texas Rangers. 550 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,400 Uh, the FBI took a look at it as well, 551 00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:43,160 and no other charges. 552 00:44:43,240 --> 00:44:45,920 Nobody else came up with a different conclusion. 553 00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:58,000 [Martinez] I don't think I ever said 554 00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:01,120 that Milo was specifically... 555 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:06,680 responsible for anything. 556 00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:10,760 And that's not to say that he wasn't, 557 00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:12,640 and that there isn't something. 558 00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:28,400 [Martinez] I have a life sentence. 559 00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:31,520 Milo has no sentence. 560 00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:37,320 My perspective is, and has been, 561 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:39,560 trying to equate... 562 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:43,760 what he is responsible for, 563 00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,360 with what I am responsible for. 564 00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:52,040 Trying to bring into alignment, 565 00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:58,080 how he was treated, and how I was treated. 566 00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:00,960 Trying to find some... 567 00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:05,240 some equality. 568 00:46:06,240 --> 00:46:07,280 Um... 569 00:46:10,240 --> 00:46:13,560 He seems to have selective memory. I mean, we all do. 570 00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:20,200 I had been doing some hallucinogens during the day 571 00:46:20,720 --> 00:46:25,560 but I still... I still kind of knew what I was doing, you know. 572 00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:29,600 [Venegas on recording] I took three lives. 573 00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:33,240 I did that. I can't lie. 574 00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:38,640 I can't say that I did not do something so heinous. And the 41 years that were given to me is just like a little slap on the hand. 575 00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:51,160 It's a little amazing to me. It's just, uh... 576 00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:55,520 I mean, I want to say I'm taken aback by, 577 00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:57,880 just the fact that you were able to speak with him. 578 00:46:59,960 --> 00:47:03,000 [Martinez] You say Venegas has found peace 579 00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:06,080 where he can confess and admit... 580 00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:11,760 now, after he has a 41-year sentence, 581 00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:15,240 to everything that he would not admit 582 00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,760 or speak of before then. 583 00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:26,400 A 41-year sentence. I can say a lot of things. 584 00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:31,640 I-- I don't have that. I have a life sentence. 585 00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:35,960 I think, no matter what I say, 586 00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:39,840 no matter how I deal with it, that's a reality. 587 00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:42,880 And so you ask me certain questions, 588 00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:45,200 they don't obviate that reality. 589 00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:50,120 You know, so it's... It's not possible to really... 590 00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:56,760 answer some of your questions, you know, as a catharsis for me 591 00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:58,000 because there's a reality 592 00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:01,160 that once I step away from here that I still have to face. 593 00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:06,160 [Venegas on recording] They came up with the idea to go steal. 594 00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:09,400 'Cause supposedly, this guy had a stash of money. 595 00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:13,200 Because Martinez knew him. 596 00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:15,840 No, that's a lie. 597 00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:18,880 So he's either completely ignorant, 598 00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:22,200 or he's just straight lying to you. 599 00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:27,840 And I said, "Well, why don't... why don't we just kill the dude, then?" 600 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:31,680 "Ah, tsk. You won't do that." 601 00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:36,640 I come from a... machista culture. 602 00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:39,120 A dare is a dare. 603 00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:44,120 I don't even know where to start. I mean, I don't even know how to... 604 00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:49,720 I don't have all the answers. 605 00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:54,880 I don't know what they said. I was really outside the bubble. 606 00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:57,240 And that's why so much of it, 607 00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:02,160 it doesn't really make sense to me, and it's difficult trying to... 608 00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:05,520 to reach back and... 609 00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:12,920 give a motive and a reason to something that... 610 00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:16,920 only Venegas and only Milo can. 611 00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:22,560 I mean, what you have, from your own investigation, 612 00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:28,040 from your own conversations, 25, 27 years after, 613 00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:34,480 it might approach the truth but it's still not going to be the full truth. 614 00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:37,280 Because some people are still not going to admit... 615 00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,600 to what is painful for them to admit. 616 00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:44,360 And that's the reality, that's life. 617 00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:50,320 They were talking about going to trash a house 618 00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:53,520 to do something bad to someone 619 00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:56,240 who appeared to be good but was really bad. 620 00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:00,000 What does it mean? [sighs] 621 00:50:07,720 --> 00:50:08,920 [sighs] 622 00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:12,520 I think it's very clear what it means. 623 00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:18,720 I think the question is, "What is the bad?" 624 00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:26,360 [Martinez] There are still some things that... 625 00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:31,680 that I personally haven't completely dealt with. 626 00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:34,880 I've dealt with them to-- 627 00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:39,440 to be able to move on, to... 628 00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:42,640 To not have them be a... 629 00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:48,360 an anchor around my neck. 630 00:50:51,720 --> 00:50:53,040 But it's just, uh... 631 00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:57,160 It's like, it's just a longer chain, you know, and the anchor is still there. 632 00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,320 For so many years, it seems like, uh... 633 00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:09,240 the way for me to deal with this has been... 634 00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:15,680 to, uh, take myself and put myself to the side 635 00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:18,400 and think about the... [sniffles] 636 00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,560 [Martinez] ...the other people involved and... 637 00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:24,200 And in a way, just... 638 00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:28,800 accept that whatever happens to me is, uh... 639 00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:35,640 is just a small thing.