(WHISPERING VOICES OVERLAP)
(CHILD LAUGHS)
(WOMAN LAUGHS)
(WHISPERING VOICES OVERLAP)
WOMAN: My biggest memory is this idea that somehow my family didn't fit in.
WOMAN: There was a surprising amount of controversy.
Lots of religious figures going on TV
and saying I should never have been born.
MAN: When you're young, you just assume
that your parents are all-powerful and will remain all-powerful.
BOY: I felt really relieved once I was able to let it out
and just tell her that something wasn't feeling right.
How do you sit on a stool with good posture?
Your turn. OK.
I'm going to roll all the dice there.
I always thought that Karma would be the perfect mother,
and the idea of having children never really appealed to me I always thought that Karma would be the perfect mother,
and the idea of having children never really appealed to me
and the idea of having children until I was with Karma.
Do you remember that first day on the tram?
Yes, I do. It's very, very memorable.
Because you were wearing a long black trench coat
Because you were wearing (LAUGHS) It was a phase, OK?
And you still had red hair, (LAUGHS) It was a phase, OK?
And you still had red hair, of course.
And you still had red hair, Mm.
Yeah, so I can definitely remember you.
I remember you being a little bit awkward and very, very cute.
(LAUGHS) And we didn't get to talk much
because you pretty much had to jump off the tram straightaway.
I actually can't remember the very first conversation
I actually can't remember about having children.
But I think it was probably me about having children.
But I think it was probably me who brought it up.
But I think it was probably me I am going to also play a bird.
Ooh! Picked that one up from... How does that actually work?
So, I think it just adds up all the little...
One of the things about lesbian relationships
is that you have to decide who is going to carry the children.
Like, in a straight relationship it's pretty obvious.
Uh, but for us, we decided to work it out by rock, paper, scissors.
Karma and I fell in love with what we thought of as our kids
when they showed us on the... the blastocyst on the screen.
'Cause before they inject you with the blastocyst
they now have a little camera on the microscope.
There's this big screen and you see it,
and in that one tiny cell are all your dreams for your family.
I was ridiculously overconfident going into IVF.
I was ridiculously overconfident I felt like I knew everything
and like I knew I felt like I knew everything
and like I knew exactly what to expect
and exactly how it was all gonna happen.
I was the first IVF surrogate kid to be born in Australia
I was the first IVF surrogate kid and the second in the world.
Like, I'd been talking about IVF and the second in the world.
Like, I'd been talking about IVF since I could talk.
Like, I'd been talking about IVF REPORTER: Alice Kirkman's life
has been a public one from the beginning.
She was born after Maggie Kirkman's sister Linda
carried her for Maggie, who was unable to have children.
That broke new ground in the IVF field,
and caused legal debate over who was the actual mother.
WOMAN: When I had the hysterectomy at 30,
when fibroids were discovered,
I was absolutely devastated.
I'd lay in hospital feeling that my life was over,
and I got quite depressed.
But I began to think that either my life was over
or I could work out how to live a life happily without children.
And I worked very hard on doing that.
It was only once Sev had suggested the possibility...
He said, "Well, I thought... they're doing IVF
"and they prepare an embryo - fertilise an egg in a petri dish -
"and they prepare an embryo - "and put it back in the woman.
"Why can't they put it back into another woman?"
And I thought immediately of my sister Linda.
We were having dinner with Linda and Jim,
had driven to stay up at their house.
Maggie and I both opened our mouths at the same time had driven to stay up at their house.
Maggie and I both opened our mouths at the same time
Maggie and I both opened and I said, apropos of nothing,
"I'm sorry I couldn't have a baby for you."
Because I'd thought of surrogacy as involving...as being...
..providing the egg and just the whole thing.
And Maggie's jaw dropped, and she said,
"We were just going to ask you."
"I said, Well, tell me more."
And they explained about IVF and using Maggie's egg
and that was fine, I was cool with that.
We've said all along that if Linda suddenly felt
that she was the baby's mother,
we wouldn't argue about it - we would let her keep Alice.
I've always considered myself to be her aunt, not her mother.
ALICE: Growing up, as a teenager,
I was very adamant that I was never gonna have children.
I was very adamant that I was Didn't want them.
Because mum had always told me
she had really wanted children her whole life,
and her experience of infertility was shattering.
So I was adamant, I did not want kids,
So I was adamant, I wasn't gonna go after them,
because I did not want to set myself up for that kind of disappointment.
Unfortunately, plans change.
(LAUGHS)
Going through IVF was the hardest thing I have ever done to my body,
because you pump your body full of hormones
because you pump your body to make it think it's pregnant,
and you have to act like you're pregnant,
and you have to keep taking medication.
And so you just start talking into it -
you start holding your belly, you feel like you're pregnant,
you start holding your belly, and then...
..you get your period...
..and then...
..it dies.
And you can't get that back.
And that sucks.
And so, yeah, that grief is very real and it doesn't go away.
Just gets better.
Sorry, I need one sec.
And all while this is going on, you're depleting all of your savings,
'cause the clinics charge what they think you're willing to pay
and, obviously, if you're trying to have a family
you are willing to pay absolutely anything so you can get that baby.
But we budgeted a certain amount of money for us to do IVF,
and we ran out of that money.
I haven't been given any reason why I haven't been able to get pregnant.
There's nothing physically wrong with me.
Sometimes you just don't get pregnant, and it takes a while.
Uh, maybe my eggs aren't good, maybe the sperm we chose wasn't good.
It hurts a lot, both emotionally and physically,
and it takes years to get past if it doesn't work.
and it takes years to get past (PLAYS BEAT)
When you start IVF, you have to set yourself up to be OK
to come out of the process with nothing.
And at the end of that process
you have to be able to find a way to be child-free, not childless,
because this does not work for everyone.
And you have to have a plan B.
Shall we go around by order of age?
(KARMA LAUGHS)
So I should...? The youngest first? (CHUCKLES)
So, I think Dad can go first.
So, we are currently three years post-IVF
and at the 'buy a really nice apartment that children would ruin'
and 'go out to restaurants and travel whenever we feel like it'
part of the journey of being child-free.
We oscillate between whether or not we're just gonna stay child-free
We oscillate between whether or not or if we're gonna adopt or foster.
But I think now we're in that exciting position
where we get to choose what our family will look like
and choose what our... who will be in our family.
(SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY) (MAGGIE LAUGHS)
How's that? Shirt OK? Not wrinkled.
INTERVIEWER: No, that looks good.
Eyeline OK? Yeah.
It's an interesting question when I realised Dad was famous, because...
..as a kid, you just think that you're normal
and that everybody's family is like that.
Couldn't have... Is that a headshot?
No, that's my bum!
They're almost... (LAUGHS) ..indistinguishable.
You can't tell the difference. No, that's right.
Who would've thought you were gonna become an actor?
Like, me, maybe. (LAUGHS)
Like, me, maybe. OK, good.
('MOTHER AND SON' THEME MUSIC PLAYS)
(HENRI WHISTLES, HUMS ALONG)
Geoffrey Atherden. Brilliant man.
Mum? What's wrong?
Hello, Robbie. Mum? What's wrong?
Hello, Robbie. (AUDIENCE LAUGHTER)
(PROGRAM CONTINUES) (LAUGHS)
It wasn't easy. Mm.
It wasn't easy. It wasn't easy. But I loved it.
I loved the challenge.
I loved the camera, I loved the audience.
Laugh!
(LAUGHS)
Did that work when you'd shout at them and say, "Laugh!"?
Did that work when you'd No.
I've gotta go.
Arthur had a floozy here, all night.
(AUDIENCE LAUGHTER)
What?
I thought you weren't going to tell anyone.
I had to tell someone.
Arthur? (AUDIENCE LAUGHTER)
Had someone here? Speak to him, Robbie.
Had someone here? Yes, Mum. I will.
(AUDIENCE LAUGHTER) Tell him how upset I am.
I will.
Tell him I'm worried sick. I will.
Now, you listen to your brother, Arthur. Hear what he says.
I will. (AUDIENCE LAUGHTER)
JOSH: People obviously loved the show.
In fact, quite often, when you tell people about Mother and Son,
In fact, quite often, when you they go, "Oh! Yeah, that's right.
"I didn't really like that show, but my mum absolutely loved it!
"She was getting dementia, and she loved it!"
Dad has dementia - technically Alzheimer's.
For us, it's about understanding how to support him
and, most of all, really, to support Mum in her support of him,
so that we can sustain a normal life for all of us
so that we can sustain as long as is humanly possible.
I...I don't have any dementia.
Do you...do you have...?
Do I have...? Do you...?
Do you think...? What? Do I have...? Do you...?
Do you think...? What? I mean, do you...?
I don't know. I refuse to hide behind it.
It's there.
And all I can say is all's well that ends well.
And all I can say is And I just thank God
for all the good and all the crap that I've gone through,
for all the good and all the crap 'cause it's really, really worth it.
Oh, God, the gear I had.
I mean, see, arms... Talk about a double-breasted suit.
Does that look like a refo, or what?
I'm not a refo! I think it's cute.
Dad was born in a refugee camp in Switzerland
Dad was born in a refugee camp and then raised by a foster family
and then sent back and then raised by a foster family
and then sent back to his mother in Paris,
and then his mother had to come on a train
and physically take him from the Swiss foster family
and physically take him and ultimately come to Australia
as part of that wave and ultimately come to Australia
as part of that wave of post-war migrants
and live out the traditional Australian migrant story
of getting a little convenience store and making a go of it.
We all went to Auschwitz a few years ago.
It was something that dad wanted to do.
And to think about the impact that that had
on all of Dad's mum's family and aunts and uncles and everyone
who were all incinerated and shovelled into mass graves,
and then to see what Dad has created from nothing,
not just materially nothing but emotionally nothing...
Dad has never used that as something to wear on his sleeve.
For him, what you do with your life is up to you.
So we didn't spend a lot of time in the household
talking about Dad's youth,
whining and complaining about the Holocaust or being refugees.
He took it as a fact of life.
Good morning. It's Saturday, 26 October. I'm Johanna Nicholson.
I'm Josh Szeps. You're watching Weekend Breakfast.
I'm Josh Szeps. Also coming up...
I'm a journalist, humourist, broadcaster,
ne'er-do-well, man about town.
Prime Minister Scott Morrison has...
I don't think Dad's being famous had an impact on me. I really don't.
I think that his creativity had an impact on me.
I think his artistic passion had an impact on me.
But fame per se was not something that we were trained to pursue.
MARY ANNE SZEPS: Ooh! Oh, lovely. Thank you.
Lovely. HENRI: Isn't that...
Lovely. WAITRESS: OK, the Bar Italia?
That's mine. That's...
Oh, Bar Italia's there, sorry. Chicken's here.
Oh, Bar Italia's there, sorry. But it was an amazing play, Henri.
It was really revolutionary, wasn't it?
It was really revolutionary, But how the hell did I get into it?
(LAUGHS)
You know?
You had an agent and you auditioned.
I think it's because I was Jewish. (BOTH CHUCKLE)
I think it's because I was Jewish. And they needed a Jewish actor.
And they looked at the schnoz
and they thought, "Oh! Ooh, this is good."
What's amazing about Dad is that, even as he begins to get Alzheimer's,
What's amazing about Dad is that, he is the biggest barrel of laughs,
and makes fun of himself he is the biggest barrel of laughs,
and makes fun of himself constantly about it.
and makes fun of himself He makes fun of his forgetfulness.
And his main focus is always on what is beautiful
and...and to be delighted in in the here and now.
I think you're supposed to have a spoon
and I'm supposed to have a knife,
'cause I'm not gonna eat a piece of chicken with a spoon -
'cause I'm not gonna eat it's not gonna happen. (LAUGHS)
Well, what do you do with this?
(ALL LAUGH)
Welcome to the pirate ship, Father.
Welcome to the pirate ship. (PIRATE VOICE) Arrrr.
Welcome to the pirate ship. Arrrr, Jim lad. Arrrr.
I feel enormous warmth and tenderness, and strength, from Dad.
A lot of warmth and tenderness from my mother.
Dad was a more complicated father figure.
He was a very alpha-male, like, old-school kind of new Australian
He was a very alpha-male, like, who had his way of doing things
and just loved us to bits through all of that,
and just loved us to bits but there was a time for fun
and then there was a time for seriousness and learning
and grand philosophical thinking around the dinner table too.
MARY ANNE: Hello!
JOSH: Hello, hello, hello!
Hello. JOSH: Hello, hello, hello!
Hello. Heya.
Hello, hello, hello, hello. (CHUCKLES) Hey!
Hello, hello, hello, hello. Yeah. Oh! What do I have to pay?
What do I have to pay for this head massage?
Maybe Pop would like one of those as well.
A premium scalp massage. You wanna give Pop a scalp massage?
I've only got three hairs. Ow! Oh, no!
Yeah! Ow!
Ooh, that's nice. Ow! Yeah! (CHUCKLES)
Oh, that's beautiful.
You could be a professional scalp masseur.
Oh, Oh, again. Ow! (CHUCKLES)
Ooh, it's very, very nice. Do it again.
Ahh... Aaaaagh! (LAUGHS)
Everybody around me might know that I am...
..it's going, that the brain's going,
..it's going, that the but I don't.
I think I'm right on the ball...
(MARY ANNE CHUCKLES) I think I'm right on the ball...
(MARY ANNE CHUCKLES) Nothing... It's true!
Yeah. I think you have a philosophy of living each day as it comes.
Yeah. I think you have a philosophy Yeah.
You can't redo yesterday.
You don't know what's coming tomorrow. (CHUCKLES)
Mm. Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Mm. Absolutely.
Mm.
You are monkeys! You can tickle each other now if you like.
(GIGGLES)
Ow!
One of the costs of dementia is that
if you're an incredibly passionate, intellectual person,
if you're a lover of the creative life, which Dad is,
it soaks a little bit of the blood and energy
out of that peak intellectual creative output.
I didn't get my head around the prospect of decline.
And...
..so we're grappling with it.
I mean, it's a horrendous fear to imagine being in a relationship
with someone who you love so much and who has been such a guiding star
with someone who you love so much and then...
..having the shell of that person persist without the spark of life.
..having the shell of that person That's the fear.
And luckily, that hasn't happened yet,
because the spark of life is so intense.
But I do think that you're tough and wise and a great survivor.
Yeah. Hang in there. Yeah.
White knuckles... Yeah.
..and smiling.
And very positive, and you love life,
and you're gonna squeeze every last bit out of it.
Well, as far as we know for sure, this one...is...it.
Mm. This is it.
Mm.
Now, we may have, you know, afterlives and all that,
Now, we may have, you know, but you don't know about that.
So, yeah, take it as it is, and love it. Love it.
First time I meet Ali, at Mount Austin Public School.
Drei was a volunteer at the Community Garden
where I was based for my work at the time,
where I was based and we just got to know each other
and made a connection, and we just got to know each other
and made a connection, and our friendship grew from there.
Are some of your children at the school here, or...?
I have three children, but only two in Australia.
Where's your other child?
We get separate with other child in Turkey.
He live in Germany with my sibling and parents.
So are you planning to try and bring him to Wagga?
We already applied for him for visa.
Right.
When I first heard the story of Drei and his family
and how they had left their home in Iraq
and the fact that their son Ronnie had been separated from them
for four years at that stage, I just couldn't deal with it.
Ronejan was a child, and I thought if Ronnie was my child
I would do anything to try and help get him here. Ronejan was a child, and I thought if Ronnie was my child
I would do anything to try and help get him here.
I spoke to Ali about Ronejan.
She said, "I will try. I don't give you promise anything, but I will try. I spoke to Ali about Ronejan.
She said, "I will try. I don't give you promise anything, but I will try.
"He is like my children, I look after him,
"and what can I do I will do for him."
We live Sinjar, Iraq,
where ISIS has a big gun.
They come close to my village.
They want to kill the people and start war.
We going to the mount
and a lot of people, they say
the road is not closed to going the Kurdistan Iraq.
And then me and my wife and kids moved to Turkey.
It was very hard life in the camp.
Two years live in a tent is very hard.
Some people, they now maybe seven years, six years.
The camp is like jail, because always you stay in the tent.
We don't have a lot of opportunity in the refugee camp.
And my sibling and another brother,
going together with Ronejan, went to Germany.
He leave 16 July 2016.
He eight years old.
Me and Zenah, we can't talk each other, just feeling upset.
I applied for Australia visa.
I heard some people say I applied for Australia visa.
I heard some people say that Australia
I heard some people say opened the port for Yazidi community.
We arrive Australia on 9 March 2017.
Winnie. (WHISTLES)
Do you use the eggplant? This one?
Yes. What do you call it?
Albadhinjan.
My language.
Say it again. Albadhinjan.
Drei and Zenah have lost so much, and the impact on them as a couple
and on their sense of wellbeing here in Australia
was really significant, I think particularly for Zenah.
was really significant, She was struggling to connect
and move forward with her life here in Australia
because of the pain of not having all her children with her.
And very much for Drei too, but I think Drei felt a responsibility
to be a strong caregiver to his family, so he would soldier on.
Delicious.
I know that Zenah get every day upset for him, they think of Ronejan.
I think as well, I get very sad.
We got visa for Ronejan come to Australia,
but the border closed down for the COVID-19.
We made a decision to try and organise his travel ourselves
and we spent a lot of hours together as a team
trying to work out how we were gonna make this happen.
Hello? WOMAN: (ON CALL) Hello?
Hi, Melisa. It's Ali.
Yeah, hi, Drei, Ali and Belinda.
I've received a letter from the department.
The department is not going to facilitate the travel for Ronejan
as they normally would when someone is granted a refugee visa.
I will have to help Drei make a request to the department
I will have to help Drei make to grant Ronejan permission to enter
based on the fact that he is a minor overseas,
you know, without his parents, and his parents are here,
and they've been separated for such a long time.
and they've been separated So I will do that.
MAN: When was the first European settlement in Australia?
1900? Do you know what European means?
We just didn't want to let Drei and Zenah down.
I think that's why it was so stressful,
because having built up so many hopes,
it was just unbearable to think that something might happen.
And there were a lot of things that could have gone wrong.
Ronnie!
There he is.
I spoke to myself, "I can't believe he's come here."
(ZENAH SOBS)
When Zenah hugged Ronnie (ZENAH SOBS)
When Zenah hugged Ronnie for the first time in four years,
it was one of those moments in life that you'll never forget.
it was one of those moments in life It was beautiful.
(ZENAH SOBS)
When I give him hug, I remind...
..I remind...
..when I left Iraq...
..my mum and my dad give me hug.
When Drei got his turn, that was the icing on the cake. (CHUCKLES)
He'd held it together for so long,
and to see him be able to hold his son was incredible.
When he arrive here same night, we Sydney drive to Wagga.
We stay home in quarantine two weeks.
Randi and Redwan, they want to come in with us
but we spoke to them, "It's too far Sydney,
but we spoke to them, "better you stay in Wagga."
(CHILDREN OUTSIDE CHATTER EXCITEDLY)
(CHILDREN CHATTER AND LAUGH)
They kissed together,
and Redwan, he's a bit cry.
And Randi tell him, "Should we not yet cry
"because your brother here - should be going play together."
(BOTH MUTTER AND SOB EMOTIONALLY)
RANDI: I was happy when he came here.
INTERVIEWER: Why? I missed him.
I want to come to Australia 'cause my family was here.
I want to come to Australia I want to live with them.
That was too far.
Behind you! Behind you!
Do you think it's ready? MAN: Pretty good.
You're the chef, mate. I think it's ready.
Good way of cooking, Reg. MAN: It's a great way of cooking.
Good way of cooking, Reg. I love the barbecue.
You can have one piece. ALI: Oh, thank you.
From first meeting Drei and Zenah,
I felt a strong connection with them,
but I know after, you know, being through this experience with them
that I view them as very much part of our extended family now,
and from my point of view they always will be.
Absolutely, Zenah. Happy wife, happy life.
Absolutely, Zenah. (ALL LAUGH)
Ali, she is never get far away for the family.
Me and Zenah, we looking is like one family together.
Me and Zenah, we looking is ALL: Cheese!
Thanks for having us. Thank you for coming.
Really appreciate you sharing with us.
Thank you. OTHERS: Thank you.
Thank you. You're welcome. You're welcome.
MAN: Gonna test your... Just give me a...just chat to me.
BOY: I think, when I was younger, my grandma took a lot of care with me,
so I think just through that, that we bonded a lot.
so I think just through that, And I was the firstborn child,
so I just think she had a lot of love for me
and I had a lot of love for her as well.
I am the favourite, but don't tell my siblings. (LAUGHS)
So, my grandma's really supportive of me
and she has raised me, and she takes care of my other siblings as well.
My mum lives in Dubai, she's a teacher in Dubai,
My mum lives in Dubai, and my father's in jail.
The main thing is that you follow the rules.
Get a lecture. Yep.
Me and my siblings moved back to Australia
because the education was better here,
and my grandma accepted us with open arms.
Jamil is the oldest one out of the four.
He came to me when he was nine years old.
We connected very closely to each other.
(BARKS)
She likes anything you fed her.
She's a little spoilt one.
Jamil is a child which shows his feeling.
He's very emotional.
He listen to other people's problems and concern
He listen to other people's and trying to help them as well.
And this seems to be what Jamil and I have a close connection, with this.
And this seems to be what Jamil and We share.
While I was growing up, I had a lot of different interests
compared to a lot of my friends who were girls.
And so I guess once high school started,
the uniform that you had to wear, which is a dress,
I guess that's when I knew that I just started to feel the uniform that you had to wear, which is a dress,
I guess that's when I knew that I just started to feel
really uncomfortable having to wear that.
So there was one night where I was just really worked up
and I'd be trying to figure out things by myself.
I couldn't really get myself to sleep.
Whenever that's happening, I usually jump in bed with my grandma.
So I went to her room and said that I was really upset.
I didn't really know what to say, but she sort of calmed me down
and told me, you know, that it was OK,
and I sort of just tried to explain to her how I was feeling.
He said to me, "I don't want to be a girl anymore." and I sort of just tried to explain to her how I was feeling.
He said to me, "I don't want to be a girl anymore."
And I said, "What do you mean?"
And he said, "I feel different."
I said, "What do you mean by feeling different? I don't understand."
And he said, "I want to be a boy."
I said, "Oh."
I said "OK, look, Jamil,"
I said, "I don't understand this transgender problem you're having.
I said, "I don't understand this "I don't even know what it is."
I said, "I need to find out more."
She didn't fully understand what I was trying to say,
as I didn't really understand either,
but she was really supportive and she just assured me
that everything was OK
and she would help me figure out anything that was going on.
I had no idea what being transgender meant or what it was.
I don't think I'd met anyone that I knew at least who was transgender.
I really had no knowledge of what I was feeling.
Here.
I was so proud to be...
(LAUGHS)
..be taking a photo on that day.
I don't know why, but that's a long time ago, darling.
We went to the GP and we told them what was going on and how I felt,
and they wrote me a referral to see the Royal Children's Hospital.
Once I went there, the doctors that I had were really friendly
and really supportive and helped talk me through
and really supportive things that I didn't understand
and things that my grandma also didn't understand,
just 'cause we'd never really been exposed
to that sort of thing before.
My background is German. I'm actually from Cologne.
Here I am, two years old.
This is the orphanage I grew up.
I like to accept a person for whom they are -
that's how I grew up in the orphanage.
We had different kids, couldn't speak,
people who couldn't walk, violent kids - I grew up with that.
To me, I accepted for whom they were and I was friend to everybody.
To me, I accepted for whom they About halfway through Year 7,
I started to wear the boys' uniform to school.
And the first day that I came to school in the boys' uniform
I was really nervous, although I was also excited at the same time.
So I told a few of my friends if they could
meet me out the front of the school and just walk in with me,
just 'cause I hadn't really announced to people at school
that I was trans or anything like that.
I didn't want to have to sort of explain myself to anyone.
I said to Jamil, "Don't worry about anybody else.
"We do what we do, we change your uniform,
"we let the school know he needs to be what he is.
"we let the school know "To be accepted."
I knew once I'd told my grandma and had her support
that it wouldn't matter who else in my family I told,
whether they accepted me or not,
'cause my grandma was the most important person to me.
I liked the idea that he came out.
He wanted me to support him,
to be there for him in regards He wanted me to support him,
to be there for him in regards to the transition
from the female to male.
My daughter sort of was confused.
She said, "I don't understand."
But she accepted it more and she does call him Jamil.
Where the father is not accepting it at all.
So I chose the name Jamil because
both my younger brothers' names So I chose the name Jamil because
both my younger brothers' names end in I-L
and they're Islamic names, which is what my mother wanted.
So I made sure that I chose a name that would fit in with my siblings.
It was kind of an awkward feeling at first,
having to get used to people calling out a different name
and remembering, "Oh, yeah, that's my name now."
and remembering, But, you know, it felt really good
to know that people were accepting me
and recognising me as how I identified.
When you hear stories about what other people go through
and you know that, you know, it's possible
that you could be targeted like that for being who you are,
and that's kind of concerning to know.
Why is it so hard to accept
every individual person's search for their own life
and their own feeling, and follow that?
And I think transgender is no different to anybody else.
Transgender is not an illness, it's not a sickness,
it's just a different feeling.
And I believe, you follow your feeling and your instinct,
And I believe, you follow you go a long way.
The best thing for me about being able to transition
was just being able to feel comfortable with myself
was just being able to and recognise from other people
as how I saw myself from the inside.
I do remember, as a child, always having this fear of blackness.
I think, because I had internalised
this sense of shame about my blackness,
it had always been a preoccupation of mine.
Nobody ever said, "You don't fit in here,"
but you very much felt like your family was, in some way,
different to the way everybody else appeared to be.
I remember once when my mum came to collect me from school
I remember once when my mum came and my stomach just dropped.
She called out my name and I turned away, and I walked away.
She called out my name And she was really angry with me.
She said, "Why...? You saw me...
"You saw me call out your name.
"Why did you walk away?"
Children saw her speaking to me and they would ask me, "Is that your mum?
"Why is your mum white and you have dark skin?"
And I always felt, growing up, that I had to constantly explain
that she was my mother, that we were legitimate in some way.
I was born in Guyana, which is a country up the top of South America.
We moved to America when I was about 9 or 10 months old
and then my parents separated, so I really grew up in Australia.
I grew up in a single-parent, only-child family.
And at that time, in Canberra, in the 1980s,
And at that time, that family unit was quite unusual.
I didn't see any other families that family unit was quite unusual.
I didn't see any other families that looked like mine.
I think I just doubled down on my belief that we were inherently wrong,
and there's a great deal of shame that comes with that,
and I think perhaps that's one of the reasons why
I found it so difficult to talk to my mum.
My father was an absent figure.
He was in America, and had been in America since I was 9 months old.
It wasn't until I was in my late 30s,
and probably when I had my own child, actually,
that I felt the need to start understanding
that I felt the need what my heritage meant to me,
what my sense of colour meant to me.
I made an effort to start at ground zero
and to find a relationship with my father
and to find a relationship as an adult, on my own terms.
Hi, Dad.
Hello. Hi. Can you hear me?
Hello. Yes, I can, very clearly.
Have you had your second jab yet?
Yes, I have.
Yes, I had it just about a week ago. Yep.
The first time I met my dad was when I was 22,
and I had flown to the States to meet him.
I just walked up to him and I said, "Hi, Dad,"
and of course he hugged me and he cried for two minutes
after not having held me in his arms for two decades or so.
And it was the strangest feeling of familiarity, it was extraordinary.
We started having conversations about his life,
We started having conversations growing up in Guyana.
Did it remind you of being back in Guyana?
Well, yes.
Back at, um... In Jamaica, actually.
Because when I was in college there, we had a steel band.
Anecdotes about what his family life was like back in Guyana,
and that became really important to me,
not only because I wanted to own my heritage in a positive way
not only because I wanted to own and to understand it,
but I wanted to have a sense of pride about my colour
and I wanted my son to be able to have access to his heritage
and framed in a positive way
that I think I missed out on when I was a child.
that I think I missed out on I'm thinking Felix would love it.
I mean, he would just be in a Wonderland.
Yeah. I can't wait to take him, actually.
So, which one belongs to you? (CHUCKLES)
That's Felix over there in the black cap.
That's Felix over there Ah.
He doesn't look very much like you, Ah.
He doesn't look very much like you, so I wouldn't have picked it.
He doesn't look very much like you, Where are you from?
It's not always easy, because, again, you're forced to explain yourself
in a way that perhaps other families aren't.
And I'll simply state the fact that, yes, Felix is my son.
"Little love, when call out Black Lives Matter
"We're saying, walk with us, raise your voice."
"We see you, black child magic, in your radiant black shine.'
"Little love, when we call out Black Lives Matter..."
I feel that I'm ill-equipped to talk about race
but I'm glad that I have a child with different colour skin,
and I'm proud that we these kind of conversations in the house.
Good reading. That was great, bubby.
Yeah. Yeah.
Without further ado,
I'd like to join Cath to join me.
(APPLAUSE)
I had always thought about the world (APPLAUSE)
I had always thought about the world through the written word,
I had always thought about the world and I think that was also in part
because I found it difficult to express myself verbally.
I think I was very anxious and introverted as a kid.
I've heard people who read my work
talk about how similar their experiences have been,
talk about how similar and that's been so gratifying
to know that I speak to other people's truths.
The ironic thing, I think, is that
the way that my family look now
is the same as the way my family did when I was a child
in that, for many people, we don't make sense.
We have a very mixed heritage.
I have a stepdaughter, who's 18,
my stepdaughter's heritage is Malaysian Indian,
my stepdaughter's heritage and I have a son who is eight.
My partner is German.
So I still often get the same questions
that were asked of me and my mother when I was growing up,
but now, because I have a very different sense of self,
and a positive sense of who I am,
I don't feel that those questions are so much of an imposition anymore.
I don't think anybody ever gets to choose
their family as it ends up being or becoming
but, on the flip side of that,
I wouldn't wanna have my family any other way
because they have helped me understand myself
because they have helped me in a much more dimensional way.
I think it has made us a stronger, tighter unit.
INTERVIEWER: OK.
OK, Jane, so just looking here.
What are your early memories of family?
Ooh.
I had thought that if these people weren't my family
then I wouldn't love them.
I was three years old
and Dad was sitting deep back in a big floral armchair
and Mum was sitting on the side of it
and Mum was sitting and they told me I was adopted.
And I asked what that meant
and they said that I'd been given up for adoption.
and they said that I'd been And, uh...
..I didn't quite know...
..what was going on, but I knew that I didn't have my mummy, you know?
..what was going on, but I knew that Where was my mummy?
And then they left the room - they sort of left me with it.
I don't remember being held or hugged
I don't remember being held or comforted in any way.
I wanted to find my mummy because I wasn't happy,
I wanted to find my mummy and mummy became...
..the love that I felt was missing.
The legal papers of adoption
on 16 June 1952.
I did feel a shame around it.
Why was I given up? I did feel a shame around it.
Why was I given up? What was wrong with me?
Once I was making my own way in life,
I just put out to the Adoptions Register...
I just put out You could put your name down
and if your birth parent You could put your name down
and if your birth parent put their name down as well,
and if your birth parent they would match you up.
"I regret there's no other information available."
So that told me
that my mum hadn't put her name on the register at that time.
that my mum hadn't put her name So, that was in '83.
So I was 31.
I was teaching.
I'd done my uni degree and done a DipEd.
I went to a fair one day
and I was walking through, and I was taken by some crafts
and I was walking through, and the person who was selling them
was one of my former best friends from school.
And G was there as well, who was the leader of the group,
and he said, "Why don't you invite your nice friend around for dinner?"
He lent me a book, which felt like a coming home for me.
He lent me a book, It was In Search Of The Miraculous.
I really loved the ideas in it about essence and personality,
and I think this is where it twinned in a lot with my adoption.
And I trusted this friend of mine, and started going to meetings.
The group was based on the teachings of Gurdjieff.
The group appealed to me for a couple of different reasons.
I felt I'd found the truth, in terms of esoteric knowledge.
It was like an extended family.
It felt unconditional, in terms of acceptance of me as a person
and I hadn't come across that before, so it was quite powerful.
My relationship with G, initially, was just purely the ideas.
I was a very good pupil, a good student.
But then, it gradually got more involved
and at one point, I found I was pregnant
and he said, "Well, good, because nobody else would give you a baby.
"You know, you're in your 30s, who would want to...?"
When I had my firstborn, I remember holding her there
When I had my firstborn, and making a pledge that this man
would never come between our close relationship.
I had two children with G
and it was the most beautiful I had two children with G
and it was the most beautiful experience, being a mother.
and it was the most beautiful Ahhh.
Once we moved interstate, it was much more isolated.
It became very negative.
Something changed in the dynamic in the group
and I became very picked on.
All of my faults were paraded in front of everybody
and I knew I had to leave, I knew I had to get out.
And it took me a few years
to plan and scheme my way out of it with my girls,
to plan and scheme my way out of it but we got away.
I was in the group for 24 years.
And I've often said that I learnt more in the leaving
And I've often said that than I did being in the group. Yeah.
I've just got to cut the cake, than I did being in the group. Yeah.
I've just got to cut the cake, darling, as you may know.
I've just got to cut the cake, I know.
While I was still in the group, I was still looking for my mother
and then received this news that she was dead.
One of the group members returning to my home town,
he got a copy of the divorce papers, just the first page,
he got a copy of the divorce papers, and on it, it said that she had died
but the husband continued with the divorce
and so I came to believe that my mother was dead.
Once I had got away from the group,
I had a light bulb moment of,
"Maybe I was lied to I had a light bulb moment of,
"Maybe I was lied to and maybe my mother's still alive."
So I just rang up the adoption register again
So I just rang up and put forward my new details
and within an hour, they rang me back
and said, "Yes, your mother would love to talk to you."
When I first saw her, it was absolutely amazing.
It was like things just fell into place.
You know, she has a similar smile to me.
Um...
Sorry. It was really wonderful, yeah.
It was really nice. And we hugged, and she cried, I cried.
And we talked and talked and talked, so it was good.
(CHUCKLES) But too late, you know. I was 50.
Adoption is...
..something I've come to terms with
and I guess, in a way, ..something I've come to terms with
and I guess, in a way, you come back to who you really are,
and I guess, in a way, who you always were.
As a child, I felt vulnerable,
I felt...
..that I needed that protection or love of a mother.
And I guess, through my life and through things I've been through
and then becoming a mother myself,
I just feel part of the universal sort of mothering type, really.
I'm really excited about becoming a grandmother.
I have a feeling that I will have a very fierce love for this new child
I have a feeling that I will have a coming into our family.
It's all fine.
(HICCUPS) Yeah. It's all fine.
(HICCUPS) Yeah.
MAN: You got it?
Four minutes to stay within curfew.
Door, ten. Four minutes to stay within curfew.
Door, ten. Wait, we're on in four minutes?
Door, ten. Ten minutes.
We're on in four minutes?
When we started this band, I think I was 21, 22 maybe.
Zaac would have been 19 and Elliott would have been 17,
Zaac would have been 19 so still in high school.
And we all never would have imagined that we'd play...
And we all never would have imagined ..any Sydney venue, really.
Like, let alone this place.
And it's not lost on us. Like, it's crazy.
I feel like I should be nervous, but I'm not nervous yet.
But now I can feel the nerves burning up inside.
But now I can feel the nerves (CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
We are the Rubens.
Let's hear it for the Rubens! You know what, let's bring them in.
Let's hear it for the Rubens! Hey! Hey! Come on in.
(CHEERING) Come on in.
Good to see you. Good to see you.
How are ya? Great.
You just finished a tour with Pink. Has it been a bit of a whirlwind?
Yeah, it's been... I don't know, I feel like
since we started this band, it's been a whirlwind, so much fun.
I think it is strange because people would hear siblings in band
and assume that we're just this family
that played music together growing up and everyone was singing together
that played music together growing up and it was just this musical family.
But it wasn't, you know?
And we did play instruments by ourselves in our bedrooms growing up,
And we did play instruments by but we never once played together.
I think Mum and Dad just gave us
a pretty calm and quiet and happy childhood
and having six kids in the family, we were always busy,
we were always having fun.
And forcing us to play music too. Forcing us to play music.
Forcing us to learn an instrument at the start when we were kids.
I mean, everyone in the family learnt an instrument at some point.
It was just a thing that they thought would be good for you
as you grow and learn, you should learn an instrument
and probably it's good to play a team sport.
and probably it's good to play Just that kind of traditional thing.
And I think it's true. I think it's great.
But that sort of sowed the seed of, like, music for us,
you know, early on.
Those three boys really taught themselves
Those three boys a lot of their own instruments.
You'd say, "What do you want to do when you grow up?"
You'd say, "What do you want to do "I want to be in a band."
We uploaded to Triple J our first demo
and it wasn't until we heard that it was on the radio that I thought that,
"Oh, OK, now we can actually have a crack at this."
Like, it was just something we were doing for fun.
Like, it was just something We hadn't even jammed together ever
until 2011, when we first played together.
It wasn't ever something that we did.
I didn't even know Zaac could play guitar.
Here is number 2 at Triple J's hottest 100 of 2015.
(GASPS) Number two! In Triple J's hottest 100.
(GASPS) Number two! So nearly there.
What?!
No way!
(ALL SCREAM AND LAUGH)
Oh, my God!
I think it was the pivotal point Oh, my God!
I think it was the pivotal point because it got us in the door
with radio stations and got us record label interest,
which obviously then took us to the next pivotal point
which was Hoops winning the Hottest 100.
I think I realised that they had talent, or something could happen,
the first time I went around and I saw them rehearsing
and I came back and said to Allie, "They actually sound really good."
and I came back and said to Allie, (CHUCKLES) I was quite surprised.
They knew whether they sounded good (CHUCKLES) I was quite surprised.
They knew whether they sounded good or not, I think that's a big thing.
They knew whether they sounded good I think sometimes people don't know
and parents don't want to tell them if they're not sounding good.
We don't really fight. Do we fight? I don't think we fight.
Most that would happen would be
someone would say something under their breath
someone would say something or someone gets slightly pissed off
and then realise, "Oh, I'm a bit pissed off,
"I'm gonna leave for a second," then come back and everything's fine.
It doesn't... It's...
But I still can't even picture that happening.
But I still can't even No. I know. I know.
(PLAYS 'LAY IT DOWN')
Family for me feels like
people you can just sit with and just not say anything.
You don't have to fill the silence with small talk.
We can come here, back to Menangle, and have coffee
or have a family lunch and not have to talk about anything.
ALLIE: I feel like it's amazing, seeing them as performers
and seeing the joy that they bring to people
and to think that that is their job.
I can't speak for all siblings working in different jobs
I can't speak for all siblings 'cause our job is quite unique...
I think it's great.
We have a great time.
Luckily, we really enjoy what we do.
That's the biggest thing I think, is that we love what we do.
That's the biggest thing I think, (BAND PLAYS 'LAY IT DOWN')
# Oh, so, I said I'd speak the truth
# But I didn't think it'd be to you
# I guess I'm sorry I had to lay it down... #
Actually, Lay It Down is one of those moments
because it's like this throwback song to where it all began
because it's like this throwback song and I always remember that.
There's like the middle eight part of that song
where I just get on the guitar and we just play
and I always just end up standing and smiling at the audience
and I always just end up standing and just have the biggest grin.
# I'm not liking where it's leading
# Or who it's leading to
# 'Cause it's you-oo-oo-oo
# 'Cause it's CROWD: # you-oo-oo-oo
# 'Cause it's # You-oo-oo-oo
# 'Cause it's # 'Cause it's you-oo-oo-oo
# Oo-ooh
# 'Cause it's you-oo-oo-oo, ah
# 'Cause it's you-oo-oo-oo, ah, ah
# 'Cause it's you-oo-oo-oo. #
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
Captions by Red Bee Media
Copyright Australian Broadcasting Corporation